Recent Charm Design

[rain oxide]

So some new charms released has been... disappointing. There are a few that are worth using, but in general I'm not really excited in trying new stuff because they are not worth using.
They often just are bad or have interesting ideas but held back by inflated charm cost.
This is a more serious problem with charms that have downsides as people seem to forget charms are meant to provide a net positive. If the charm's negative is very significant making it 5 star would make people not want to use it.
Ideally, if the downside is close to the upside, it should be 1 star (example: spellbound spearhead), if the downside is somewhat significant but upside generally is much great, it should be 3 star (example: mycelium catalyst). If the upside is massive and downside is either very small or irrelevant (copper furnace is a good example here, disregarding other controversies around that charm), it should be 5 star.
Plus, some charm's negative stat just directly contradicts the point of the charm without much counterplay. For example, Callicarpa Compound. Cry Havoc is a much better way to do stuff imo, as people that use it prob doesn't care about its damage and tstep isn't a very good damage skill anyways.

[ornate nova]

can you provide examples and reasons as to why those examples are "bad"?

[rain oxide]

Clocktower's Blessing is something that comes to my mind

Magna Luna slightly but that charm isn't really that bad due to +1 slash charm existing

[modern kettle]

I've seen this in form of clock blessing, the warding charm that basically makes it split tincture but aoe
It has 5 cost (for context split tincture has 1 cost iirc) just like Coven Vial, the difference is compared to coven vial which is meant to keep alch with poise immortal and give near permament uptime,
Clock blessing is the only charm that makes warding actually usable on others, as the delay usually allows people to escape or accidently get out of reach, clock allows alch to nicely overheal people at a fair cost stats wise, but the charm power required is so painful

[rain oxide]

Clocktower Blessing is pretty much equvalent exchange in terms of stats

[modern kettle]

It's good I love it but it's so costy I feel like I lose too much damage to use it

[jolly pollen]

" the charm's negative is very significant making it 5 star would make people not want to use it." I was thinking about making a feedback post for this today, great timing

[modern kettle]

It isn't really negative, it's just short and weaker warding but in return you get to a actually use it on others, the cost is literally the only thing keeping that charm back

[rain oxide]

downside and upside are really close in this case imo

[nimble ridge]

For "recent", is this for both Sirius rares/epics and starpoint rares?

[rain oxide]

mostly starpoint and sirius ones

and mostly about charms with downsides

[hidden coral]

The blade dance and vc charms seem underwhelming, but perhaps I'm just not appreciatiating the range increase of bd
And the vc charm just from the that vc refresh + feels hard to justify when for most abilities it is only one less kill basically

[round aspen]

the vc charm from sirius is just one too many badge points to fit into my build unfortunately

besides that its actually good

i think part of the reason that starpoint charms are a bit underwhelming is because starpoint is before lots of content that is already out, progression wise

[rain oxide]

charms should've have clear power level balance wise

[blazing cave]

Ngl all of starpoint there's been 0 charms that I want to use and maybe like 5-6 items that are interesting, but really like 1-3 that I might want to try out. Even when I get more charm power in the future I'm probably just gonna add in the portal DT charm or something

The blade dance radius + stun duration looks really interesting, kinda like a souped up smokescreen, but like that niche doesn't seem useful for any viable swordsage build, especially so for 4 charm power

[radiant osprey]

silence peon. i am a magna luna fan

although it does rely heavily on the +1 slash charm yeah

[blazing cave]

I feel like the Bodkin charm from Nadir is interesting stat wise and 3 charm power is ok, but -distance feels like most of the reason you use it and 50% is a huge amount. I'm currently rocking BB1 and miss the distance from BB2, I couldn't imagine melting it even further

[radiant osprey]

maybe the charm power could be reduced by 1 or 2 to account for this

[blazing cave]

First strike charm could be interesting to use, but that's just a flat bonus charm so not much said really

[radiant osprey]

and yeah actually now that i think about it im kinda just repeating what you said about it

[rain oxide]

funny enough it somewhat resembles a charm I cooked earlier which is like +50% damage -100% distance

[blazing cave]

I feel like I'd only ever want to use VC enhancement on swordsage, and I feel like the +0.5 cdr is pretty overvalued, I personally wouldn't ever use it at 4 charm power, I'd rather there be no cdr and bump the enhancement value to 15% at 2-3 charm power

But that's just rogue charms

I also thought there hasn't been an epic rogue charm since turbine, because I forgot malhuers is epic lol

[hidden coral]

Malhuers is so good but it's also fairly subtle of an effect once you get used to it

[rain oxide]

The status of alch epic charms are...

not good

also warlock have a meme epic

[hidden coral]

A good 1 star epic charm probably is much different than a good 5 star epic charm
Imagine what thatd be for rogue

[rain oxide]

Pulsar most definitely look like a 3 star charm instead of 5

[blazing cave]

But yeah idk in general across all of star points items I've gone "oh that isn't usable for me" to 85% of things, "oh that looks cool, lemme think about it more" to 10% of things and "I'll add that to my build" to skysplitter

And those 10% of things that look cool the more I look at, the more it looks worse than what I'm currently running

[rain oxide]

only started use skysplitter cause the alternative is worse

[blazing cave]

Or equal to what I'm running, but converting %damage to first strike damage like footprints and offhands

And why have first strike when I can have the same amount of %damage which works on every hit

And bosses

The content is all fun to play 100%, but I don't feel like I've got anything new for my build other than MW4, skysplitter and maybe 2 other items

And I say maybe because I'm probably not gonna end up using them lol

Ok I detracted a bit from charms, but yeah charms also don't appeal to me at all from star point, even looking at other classes they seem kinda meh, but I haven't looked at them too deeply. Nestfeather went from a kinda unique bird only charm for a fair amount of charm power... to a 1 star 15% damage increase and stun -> bleed swap, which feels more boring to me idk

[red nacelle]

the hardest content in the game doesnt even use overworld charms. i think it wouild be fun if charms got more powerful in overworld a bit

[hard finch]

team monumenta trying to make "every" item viable so they just make useless items instead 😭

[red nacelle]

isnt solar smite kinda good

[blazing cave]

whats solar smite

[red nacelle]

apparently this

i know zero percent as i am not the cleric

but it should be good on infernodin

[toxic adder]

So it’s a stright line not a path
Inferno is heresy

[red nacelle]

its entirely for applying inferno and not buffing anyone

as enchantment just makes a big circle

[toxic adder]

Fair

[red nacelle]

thousands must fall before inferno stops winning

[toxic adder]

It’s just more boring imo

My ideal paladin setup if it ever exists is lifestealing so hard I out dps the enemy
Something something blood is fuel

I feel some cleric charms are under wealming but majority tend to be good, like threads, or fun(ny) like Morning Star

[pale flame]

idk when I ran inferno cleric with that charm it feels like a side grade

You don't need the radius boost to ignite things effectively, you can just kite them into the circle and spend the 3 cp on something else

[cosmic crater]

ya the rogue charms, actually more than even rogue charms

most star point charms tend to be on the higher charm power side

like all the sirius epics

were 4+ stars

[pale flame]

There are also 1* charms that are very questionable before starpoint
Cough aether turbine

So I wouldn't say it's just a high cp charm issue

[cosmic crater]

Fair enough

[cosmic crater]

i would like to see a first strike charm someday that extends the number of "first strikes" you have

[hidden coral]

Oh God lol

Just plus 1 would be kinda insane

[ornate nova]

Second Wind Threshold +10%

(insert situational) Armor/Agility Cap +5

Generalist charms are fine, we have a lot of ideas left to expand them. i think they arent very strong because a lot of the recent releases have been niche enchants that you dont build around

I fear the day we get stamina damage, though.

or even just stamina stacks, or both.

[ornate nova]

And maybe the problem is releasing all of these style of charms at once, rather than releasing a few of these + a few more used enchants.

[shell hill]

Mage and Cleric epics are not worth 5 stars

Knucklebones is just alternative Crucus that costs double to use

Rogue rare charm is not super appealing after doing the math on it, especially when Rogue has trouble with charm costs already

Other charms are relatively baller though

[rain oxide]

mage epic should just be 5 star with +1 reset (this will clearly be balanced)

[hidden coral]

+5% stamina damage per stack
+1 damage instance requirement per stack

[full slate]

Mage one could trade the threshold requirement for much faster decaying insight overall

would be a neat dynamic

[ornate nova]

so, total damage per stamina is 30%?

[hidden coral]

But infeasible to obtain unless you are relentlessly being hit

[ornate nova]

doesnt matter, 2 hits = 3 previous stacks

either way this isnt "submit charm ideas" this is "recent charms have been bad"

[hidden coral]

Sorry my spitball is actually being released this week your rebuttal was too late

[ornate nova]

oh no, a very powerful charm that synergizes with my build? what will i ever do

[hidden coral]

Play glass

[devout edge]

Agree with this take. The only star point charm I have used at all is the one that gives an extra eagle. Other than that, none seem very good.

Epic charms should create a play style, rare charms should change other skills to be in accord with that play style, and common charms should buff individual skills unconditionally

[full slate]

I do think some SP Charms are in a good place though

I've been using Crucus Gauntlet since it released and it is very fun

I previously used Rootways Boulder, also a fun charm

guildmate says Silver Pauldron and Solar Smite are good too

there's more I would use but I do not play its corresponding class for other reasons

[nimble ridge]

Have started using the first strike charm today and results are maybe noticable, and probably not detrimental

[blazing cave]

I think everything will become clear whats good and what isn't desirable when the next 3 charm power comes out in 3 years time

But seriously if I get my hands on more charm power I already know what I would like to add to my build to top it off for the content I play

[ornate nova]

if they are balanced around 15 power then they're also balanced around 4 enhancement points likely.

[devout edge]

My alch build will dominate once I have 15 cp

[unborn torrent]

Illuminate might actually buff inferno damage

[jolly pollen]

Used it once, need to master it to actually have it be useful in gameplay, but trying to activate it hurts my brain, and gives me too much damage on my rather glassy build, I don't play shield bash anyway

[fleet kernel]

What do yall want to see in new charms?

[jolly pollen]

I want to see reduced charm costs if the negatives in the charm are huge

[fleet kernel]

Crucus is niche but pretty good for mass AOE stun

[fleet kernel]

I mean, do you have any example of charms you want to see?

[jolly pollen]

I'll search in a bit regarding warrior charms since that's what I play, I have barely interacted in this feedback thread, so that'll be a start

[ocean oyster]

all the elementalist charms are quite boring imo most of them are starfall focused theres like 1 rare blizzard charm and no elemental spirits rare charms (also no ele arrows charms)

[upbeat dove]

Popped by specifically to mention this lmao.
I can forgive the lack of Blizzard charms because of the recent addition of Spec Charms via Starpoint, which gave me Explosive Charm of Snowfall, but the lack of Ele Spirits and Ele Arrows Rare charms is kinda sad.

[ocean oyster]

theres a lot of potential for those skills because you can buff one part but nerf the other to reinforce a niche

[upbeat dove]

I would love something that disables Fire Spirit and gives Ice spirit like -40% cooldown.
And damage.

[ocean oyster]

same but fire spirit

[rain oxide]

Elementalist have 1.5 viable playstyle

[upbeat dove]

Is the .5 Blizzard spam?

[rain oxide]

no

earrow

[ocean oyster]

whats the 1

[fleet kernel]

Starfall probably

[upbeat dove]

Wtf? My build that can play most/all content isn't viable? 😡
Anyway, comedy over.

[unborn torrent]

This player has never played elementalist

[shell hill]

Nah he’s right though

[fleet kernel]

Girlfriend have been playing it for atleast 1+ year everyday! Pretty sure its that

[rain oxide]

starfall stack is the only good elementalist build (if you run earrow you are a federal agent)

[ocean oyster]

the inferno in question:

[rain oxide]

inferno isn't real

[ocean oyster]

i wish we got a sirius charm that made starfall land like 300% faster

[hidden coral]

Never heard of whatever that term is

[rain oxide]

not enough space sadly...

[ocean oyster]

instead we got frost nova...

[hidden coral]

Not girlfriend, elementalist
Is that like a guardian sub spec?

[latent thicket]

as an arcanist im still using all my pre-starpoint charms

only magna luna seems somewhat interesting, and only because of the other charm for an extra slash exists, but i still dont want to use it because i like having my power split across both magma shield and flash sword (i will never learn the new name, it'll always be flash sword to me) rather than use all my charm power to boost 1 skill due to my playstyle with the class

[ivory plaza]

I don't fully understand why people love that combination so much when Guiding Moonlight by itself is just better. +50% dps and +10% CDR across all slashes vs. +27% dps and +20% CDR across all slashes plus a bit of range. Just doesn't seem worth the charm power to get less DPS and a CDR increase that is mainly meaningful for Prismatic builds because of the cooldown cap increase. And even then with the increased cooldown on Moonblade itself even that's arguably not even a benefit.

At least it's better than Explosive Lunar Charm.

[shell hill]

I don’t get why Magna Luna needs to have any CD increase when ordinary Moonblade technically does equal damage

[upbeat dove]

Also, in case it works this way, I'd recommend making a Blizzard Charm with a lot of negative Slowness amp, so it ||speeds up enemies instead.|| With the tradeoff being more damage/aoe.

[storm spade]

This is a great post. I've been thinking about this type of thing from my perspective as a paladin for a while.

The way I've been thinking about it is to group charms into three broad categories: those that upgrade your abilities, those that expand what your abilities do, and those that transform your abilities.

• Upgrade charms make your abilities better at their current goal. Automatic Distillery's buff to Heavenly Boon's potion drop consistency is a good example.
• Expand charms let your abilities accomplish more roles while maintaining their main role. Derelict Tablet increases Holy Javelin's damage, but also its size, allowing it to mark crowds more effectively.
• Transformative charms give an ability a new role at the cost of largely or entirely removing it's ability to accomplish its existing role. Zoetic Geas greatly increases Hand of Light damage, but removes all healing.

Each of these charm groups have a place in the ecosystem, but their roles differ.

• Upgrade charms will be considered for any build running the ability they buff. They may even draw players into running that ability if they're strong enough.
• Expand charms challenge players to see abilities as something more, and possibly rework their loadout now that one ability covers the role of another.
• Transform charms mean, in effect, giving up one ability for a new one. What once did X, now does Y, so you may need to figure out how to fill that void.

That said, I don't think any of these groups should inherently cost more or less charm power. Instead, we can use these groups to contextualize how good a charm is at the role(s) it accomplishes.

• How does an upgrade charm compare to an untiered counterpart? How strong are its upsides and downsides?
• How well does an expand charm allow an ability to accomplish its new role? How does it improve or weaken its main role?
• How well does a transformative charm allow an ability to be at its new role? How important/replaceable was the removed role?

In terms of balancing charms, unfortunately my experiences is pretty lacking for all but cleric and paladin charms, so I don't think I can meaningfully contribute to the discussion of balance for specific charms, though maybe I'll post about cleric charms later. from what I've seen though, it does feel like we can draw some broad conclusions.

• I would think upgrade charms should be a bit stronger than untiered charms, and they often are, justifying their unique power with small to medium downsides. Depending on downsides, upgrades are very easy to justify a low of charm points for.
• Expand charms work best in my view when they also improve the original ability's role a bit, which is pretty common. These types of charms often trade power for versatility, which is they main way they differ from upgrade charms. As a result, I imagine they can justify similar charm power values.
• Transformative charms are the hardest to value of all the types. Because you lose an ability's role, I think for a transformative charm to be desirable, you have to add one or more new roles to the ability that it can accomplish as well or better than its original. You also have to take into account that other abilities from the same class can already have the new role, devaluing it. I think many transformative charms fall for the trap of valuing the existence of the new role too highly, resulting in the loss of one role, the addition of a lackluster or redundant second role, and a charm power cost as though it were an upgrade or expand charm. I think these charms should generally have more power budget than other charms to compensate for what you lose.

[shell hill]

Martial Mantra is a transformative charm the way it turns your hard earned MR fragments into money you’re not getting back

[wise python]

this is drg overclocks

[storm spade]

Yeah, I'm with you that that's a good example of an lackluster transformative charm. It turns your AoE big damage effect into a single target effect twice as often, but this new role is not needed for cleric as much as the AoE is. So for 3 charm power you get a less useful ability with lower damage. You can try to build back the damage with other charms, but you're limited by the 3 cost, and the -100% range is a hard hole to dig out of.

[storm spade]

Looking this up rn

[cosmic crater]

basically its useless

[storm spade]

yeah basically

[cosmic crater]

ngl the idea of martial mantra is cool and all

honestly could see it being genuinely useful if the -100% range got turned into a bit more -dmg

[storm spade]

I'm with you on that. Because the range/AoE is so valuable to clerics, and their single target damage is already quite decent, I think in order for the charm to work as a transformative charm, it would need to accomplish the role of single target dps a lot better (more damage, lower cd, etc.). Otherwise, and I think the better solution, make it an expand charm, where it decreases its AoE effectiveness by a medium amount, but adds the new role of single target burst damage.

[shell hill]

Mantra just needs radius to exist

Give it -50% that’ll do enough

[storm spade]

TBH I haven't played Deep Rock Galactic, but the comparison seems apt from what I can tell. Does this kind of system work well in that game in your experience?

[nimble ridge]

I'd like to see transformative type charms be slightly subsidized, since new ways to play is one of R3's strengths, and not being able to afford a cool charm because you can't meet damage requirements with less charm power is a bit of a downer

[storm spade]

Yeah I couldn't agree more!

[blazing cave]

Yep, clean overclocks just give you very minor buffs, balanced overclocks give decent buffs, but with a downside, and unstable overclocks give the biggest buffs, but with much heftier downsides. The difference between the two systems is that there's no "power" assigned to them, you just can only apply 1 to each of your 2 weapons, and the fact that these 3 power types can also be upgrade/expand/transform under your definitions above.

For example there could be a clean overclock that give a bit more reload speed and mag size, another that deals more damage at close range, and another that turns your shotgun into a fucking recoil weapon. The same can be true for the other two, but with added downsides that can also be factors into whether the buffs become upgrade/expand/transform or not

Charm power should theoretically apply to how "strong" a given charm is at doing it's job, with more allowance given to rare/epic charms, but sometimes it really just feels like a number is slapped on without really any process of determining how powerful something is

[ocean oyster]

flesh laurel

[modern kettle]

clocktower's blessing

[blazing cave]

Like in fear of it getting nerfed, Malhuers is a fucking game changer with almost no downside, unless you're playing AS(u), which is also a skill check that is instantly remedied by killing an elite. This insane charm is 1 power, even if it's an epic, which is incredible because I can fit it into lots more builds, but then I look at something like the Nadir BB charm which gains a bit of damage, less cooldown (which isn't terribly useful on rogue) and for the same total percentage (25 + 25) also has negative distance, which is Assassin's only consistent mobility, and all of this is for 3 charm power. I'm not sure if I'd take it for 1 lol

The blade dance charm also looks pretty good, a large bit of range and a massive root duration buff, with the downside of extra cooldown (again not too important as you can just kill a rogue) for 4 charm power, but BD is swordsage's best and most consistent damage denying ability and turning that into more of a combat focused charm halting all mobs means you won't have that if you get in trouble later on without an elite to kill first. 4 charm power also feels too expensive for a niche that imo doesn't feel worthwhile to trade for

[modern kettle]

I feel like the Silvari Blade Handle (charm in question that TKT just mentioned) is supposed to be ran together with Everflowing, which puts you at 7 power used for something that feels more confusing than an actual combo

[blazing cave]

I'd have to test the Sirius rogue charm out in gameplay to see if the CDR feels super impactful, because on paper 25% extra cdr on normal mob kills does sound alright, but again it's also 4 charm power for a buff that I don't really feel like I need atm, maybe swordsage would feel differently as it feels targetted for that spec, but I'm not running out of skills often in encounters enough that 0.5s per kill would change that idk

These 3 starpoint rogue charms just do not feel useful enough for how high their downsides and charm costs are tl;dr

[blazing cave]

The reason I say this about having to test it is that I do currently use skull of isharist, which is the same charm power, for an on paper pretty minor buff, but 30% less cooldown on rogue's most powerful and already highest uptime skill is absurdly good considering it means you get back BMB ~1 kill faster. So there's always a chance 0.5s cdr per kill is similarly impactful and the 4 charm power is worth it too

[hidden coral]

Yeah skull looks horrible but is awesome

1 less mob between bmbs brings it to a place where the other abilities can cover for you if you rely on bmb for damage

[blazing cave]

I know not everything is gonna be for everyone, but coming from starpoint the only things I've changed in my entire armour + hotbar + charms build is my sword and pick, idk I was kinda hoping for some other options

[hidden coral]

I'm trying out vilepriest

[blazing cave]

I've looked at it, but I just don't think it's better than what I'm wearing or another combo of items including it. I'm tempted to try out another build with Sirius chestplate + Vilepriest, which is giving me like 6 hp, 20% damage, 2 melee, 1 magic prot but much less base defense 20 -> 13, and 2 less proj prot. Idk if that HP difference is worth the armour reduction, which is why I'd be tempted to try it

[storm spade]

Thanks for sharing those context and some of your experiences with rogue charms! This is great stuff!

[rain oxide]

Transform charms should be 1 charm power unless it gives a major power boost

[upbeat dove]

I can understand transformative Charms costing more than 1 if they become really good at their new job.
Oh wait, that's what you just said, nvm. My brain is melting

[storm spade]

Yeah transforming an ability from one role to another, but doing the second equally well, doesn't seem like it needs a ton of power budget. When it accomplishes its new role in a uniquely effective way, introduces multiple roles, or the new role is better than the old one was at what it did, then that's where they earn more charm power in my book.

[cursive moth]

I really like this write up

[hazy bronze]

idk how charms r gonna be for the future cuz it seems like we are already at a point where charms r getting kinda boring or just too niche to be good

i dont even got anything to say about these sirius charms

[warm portal]

does this argument include Chaos Codex

a 4 star charm that actively nerfs voodoo bonds

[hazy bronze]

its good

???

its for tank reaper

[pastel phoenix]

great I'll be sure to let all of the 0 tank reaper players know

I'm sure they'll find a way to use chaos codex 🗣️

[hazy bronze]

they exist

and its pretty good

idk i dont even like tank reaper but the charm is good for waht it does

[pastel phoenix]

I think the charm is another molldyer inferno type thing

it exists in theory in practice the niche it fills is so unusable/niche that the charm is useless and only serves to deprive warlock of actually good epic charms

[hazy bronze]

yeah they dont wanna buff warlock

[pastel phoenix]

like what kind of content requires tank reaper

or tanks in general actually

I'd say zenith but zenith doesn't have reaper

that + even if we ignore the fact that a lot of content is done solo (where tanks kinda suck and where this charm is like. objectively worse than normal vbonds) I can't think of a time where I'd want a tank reaper of all things over a hiero or a tene or an apoth or even another scout or rogue

[hazy bronze]

yesh thats what im sayin

i dont like tank reaper but its a good charm for tank reaper

[pastel phoenix]

there are limited spots to fill in all of like the 3 forms of group content that I regularly play and a tank reaper is not one of the roles I'm particularly looking for

[hazy bronze]

i mean not much to make for actual melee reaper sadly

warlock try to be most poorly designed class challenge (it got a close 2nd, nearly tied with alchemist)

like genuinely you cant make a balanced good dark pact charm

[pastel phoenix]

ok but also consider that dark pact is already a good tanking skill

with normal reaper

you just have to hit something period

so unless you're trying to play hiero reaper this charm is objectively worse

like why does it even exist

[hazy bronze]

yeah ik im moving away from the tank reaper shit im just talking generally for reapr charms

u cant make a decent dark pact charm

and then jchain is useless and vbonds is useless

[pastel phoenix]

tome of broken vows is pretty good for what its worth

astral attractor kinda exists?

yeah idk

[hazy bronze]

and tome is busted xdxdxdxd

[pastel phoenix]

ngl warlock charms kinda suck but the base class is actually good so its fine

💀

like if alch charms or rogue charms were like warlock charms people would 100% complain

"+35% dodging reflected damage +25% dodging cooldown 4 stars" 🤓 💀

"Focused VC Charm: +0.05 VC cooldown reduction"

[sinful mist]

I love how the day 1 lock (reaper) charms are still BiS (except for the new focused dpact charm, that one is fire)

like Tome of Broken Vows and Cracked Pocketwatch are so goated and nothing has been able to touch them since day 1 lmao

[sinful mist]

i honestly think there is no reason to use it without pocketwatch

because transferring the damage makes the -60% useless

and yeah the cooldown is good ig

but not that good

and you are almost always able to transfer the damage in like halls or whatnot

[wise python]

yea

[warm portal]

Deep Rock Galactics overclock system is, for the most part, flawless