#Upgrade to Looting

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

agile spear
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If suggestion 9463 is rejected due to encroaching design (totally understandable TBH), then what about a new item that can be purchased using a Tessaract of Emotions and either a LOOTBOX or Box of Endless Echoes that allows the user to open a chest and get its loot? Can include configuration to filter out things (blocks, potions, and so forth) if the user doesn't want them. The trades for lootbox vs boee would determine capacity and you could upgrade the one purchased with lootbox to the increased capacity using the new item and a boee.

As-is, looting during dungeons is either:

  • Using emotions to gather chests to offload periodically. This quickly fills inventory, especially in r3 dungeons, with more players only putting the problem off.
  • Picking up and selling as you go. Relies on having a perfect crystalizer for max benefit, and still runs into an issue of inventory space if one does not have a remnant of the rose for rares (or constant use of emotions) and/or a bag of hoarding.

The goal of this item would be to offer an upgrade path that would simplify the looting experience for both solo and group play, where the player can effectively treat the chests as if they are strike chest while splitting loot between players with lootboxes or the upgrades. Keeps the player in the dungeon and actively going through it for longer, while potentially also allowing interactions where the user could condense or sell what's stored using the perfect chrystalizer. (Potentially could offer a further upgrade that could collapse the p.cryst into it too, allowing more configuration for auto selling. Can also include optional interactions with bag of hoarding where depositable items are auto deposited into the bag.

Thoughts?

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The idea of the upgrade path is to follow a similar line of thought as the Mechanical Armory, which is a condensing of the yellow tess, the charm 2000, and a shulker box.

gilded moon
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Adding more configurability to pickup filters causes significant lag overhead afaik

rough rock
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a lot of the problem with the strike chest formula is that it makes a decent set of assumptions we can't make

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skt breaks some of those assumptions, but is also finicky about it and depends on people being online/involved the whole time to not lose out on loot

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perhaps it's changed in recent things as well, but not all chests are made equal in dungeons, especially r1/2 dungeons there are higher value chests and guaranteed rare chests throughout the dungeons that mean a homogenous "+1 chest" wouldn't quite apply

verbal bobcat
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I mean didn't you kinda line out an upgrade path in the second example where you progress by getting pcryst, remnant and bag of hoarding?

I do think implementing solo/player opening chest auto looting with lootbox would highly increase it's viability in groups and solo play, but I'm not sure combining two items to get there is the play, would recommend looking at the official "Lootbox frustrations" feedback post and player poll, where the 2nd highest voted category was being annoyed at not getting a share yourself

Although I think everything that would have come from that poll/feedback has been enacted sooo

rough rock
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existing categories are broad enough and keep it up to 1-2 checks vs. pulling a table and checking each item to the pulled table or anything like that

lunar light
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The solution I see as the best is to just add solo compatibility to the BoEE.

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two birds with 1 stone

rough rock
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the solution you state is the context of the feedback

lunar light
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No ,they're suggesting a new item.

rough rock
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If suggestion 9463 is rejected due to encroaching design (totally understandable TBH),
9463 is that solo compat to boee

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which was rejected

lunar light
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BoEE will remain the worst epic in the game forever sadly

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by a long shot

rough rock
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whether or not it's right, that's what's led to the new item idea

lunar light
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Yeah, but adding a new item would not change the rejection reason

agile spear
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Yeah, the main point ofthis item would be following the same line of thought as the mechanical armory

rough rock
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worth discussing in a feedback thread though.

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although i do somewhat think it'd be unlikely to fold pcryst/boee/new thing into a ball similar to armory, armory was the natural evolution from "here's how you store charms, here's how you store gear, here's how you store class...." etc

lunar light
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"heres how you loot items, heres how you sell items, heres how you store items"

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we do not have the first of 3.

rough rock
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boee is that first of the 3, it's just not solo friendly as it's design was never intended as a solo tool

lunar light
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i dont tihnk they should be combined, personally, but it isnt a bad thought.

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i love being anti solo, i love being anti solo

rough rock
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not a bad thought, just don't think it leads itself to the natural conclusion that armory was

verbal bobcat
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I think the problem is that people/devs agree that BoEE is currently a pretty low quality epic. It's the same as the regular one, but a couple times bigger. However the solution isn't to turn it into one of the best QoL epics in the game, maybe even better than P.cryst if you just clicked a chest once and stored every valuable content instantly.

Now if devs think that that QoL epic could exist. I don't see why it couldn't be an UBER expensive final R3 legendary tier combination purchase

lunar light
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I dont think it would be one of the best QoL epics in the game. It would be pretty dependant on the other epics.

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Selling and then storing the currencty after would still be an absolute hassle.

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(assuming we have solo storage but no PC or BoH)

agile spear
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I guess it's just hard to not step on other item's toes for this. You have boee which can't be used solo, you have emotions which is "store a chest" which has some restrictions too (unusable in areas where you can't place chests)...

rough rock
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personally, for my solo ventures, it's just open chest, grab what i want, right click pcryst, down a slot to right click BoH, and then after X chests when my inv is filling up, put not filtered into money stuff into my 9 echest shulkers for loot

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yea, it's hard to not step on toes with the 3-4 loot solutions there are, made even more complicated by one being a tesseract

verbal bobcat
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Depends on what dev discussions happened to result in the closing of the suggestions, if it's a balance/design reason of "this item should never exist as it'd be too strong" then this feedback thread could probably be closed as it'll never happen, but if the discussion was just around giving it to BoEE and that being too valuable for a willows epic, then I could forsee a future where said item is added in the future requiring a ton of value to get

lunar light
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yeah, is it "this should never exist" or "this shouldnt be BoEE", and in which case, what purpose does BoEE serve?

verbal bobcat
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Because personally I'm kinda on the side of that item should never exist, especially after playing a couple actual ctms recently. Hard looting is a core tenant imo, converting the entire server into strikes where the entire process is streamlined into clicking a chest is a bad thing imo

rough rock
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boee serves the purpose of handling the random lfg group elements, wasn't really built as a means to speed up looting as much as it was to make looting fairer i believe, even if someone loses the roll and ends up with 42ccs less value, it wasn't decided on by another player pocketing it

agile spear
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As a player that plays exclusively with friends and solo, it does feel like I wasted some money on boee though.

rough rock
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but that's a purpose that a lot of players (solo players and people who will only play within a friend circle) won't run into, which decreases it's apparent use cases

agile spear
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Jinx

rough rock
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yep

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i mean, it's definitely the case. It's a tool with a limited use case, don't think it's designer would disagree that it doesn't help those use cases, just that it wasn't really meant for those cases in the first place

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friends have the trust (theoretically) to split it at the end, solo doesn't have this problem at all

agile spear
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What if the item is only usable solo?

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So opposite of boee

rough rock
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seems like a step towards the same end point, and runs into the purple tesseract still

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adding 3 that handle solo, friends, and random lfg is just a scenic route to the same destination

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but as said before, running into existing items is just an eternal problem with this area of discussion

agile spear
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There is the option of it using a purple tess as a component to purchase the item.

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Since a tess isn't too bad to obtain.

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And it wouldn't have to wholly replace it as it could be "click chest with item to use item"

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So the player now has the option of using emotions for potion chests or the item for loot

rough rock
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True, down the same path as yellow tess. Just providing some of developer-side context to the situation, i play solo and wouldn't really be impacted by it, although i'd personally still not use it since i want to see what i get as i go, allows for reward for progression

agile spear
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Could have a preview gui like mechanical

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So in the moment you can go go go, then when you want you can check what you got along the way.

rough rock
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Could, but opening the gui every 5-10 chests doesn't come with that glee of opening a chest and finding shiny goodie

agile spear
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That is fair

rough rock
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idk, just too used to mmos/ctms to want to see the cool shiny as i go vs. check bags later

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but that's my experience, not going to be a shared one amongst other backgrounds

agile spear
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I'm used to how my friends have been going which is just immediately emotions chests fast and check at the end.

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IMO having this theoretical item as one that requires interacting with a chest with said item allows the player to opt out of it.

sullen birch
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if one does not have a remnant of the rose for rares
Or.. just a Shulker. Pick up, right click Shulker, continue playing. Hell, I carry around 2 Shulkers just to stuff random stuff I want into.

zinc torrent
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A lot of looting is just pcrys to be honest

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Rarely will your inventory fill up enough so much that one shulker isn't enough to hold everything in a single dungeon's worth of loot instance

night night
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havent read anything but the title but i lootrun occasionally and i really dont think it needs an upgrade

humble osprey
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In general, I agree with the notion that there should be a more streamlined way to loot normal chests available at some progression point

rigid cliff
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The only things that give me much pause at this point are pigments in chests- there's no meaningful upgrades in chests beyond the first few runs of a piece of content and if I'm in a group, I'm not keeping track of rares every time I see them and announcing them to the group to understand what we are at

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If the BoEE had a little jingle to alert that a chest obtained "high quality loot" like a rare or pigment, that'd give essentially as much mental reward as seeing it in the mess of items I'm blindly dissolving into money in the next half second

sullen birch
humble osprey
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Sure, but it still entails a significant amount of inventory micromanagement compared to something like SKT

sullen birch
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I guess.
Double right click inside chest, shift click loot, swap key on Pcrys, right click bag of hoard, left click money, deal with other stuff.

humble osprey
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Ideally, the desired loop would be that I open a chest and everything inside it is handled without me having to open an inventory

sullen birch
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Too much streamlining and automation is actually bad for long-term game health funny enough.

humble osprey
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Tiered items get pcrysd, currency gets put in a bag of holding, rares,blocks,potions are put into something analogous to an equipment case

sullen birch
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All that.. from opening the chest? No that's way too much lmao.

humble osprey
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There's over automation for sure, but it doesn't apply in the case where you are minimizing downtime from inventory usage

rough rock
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the more efficient it gets the less each part can provide interest/reward to the play, and it's quite the vicious cycle

humble osprey
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Time spent in a gui is far less valuable to an experience than time spent outside of one

rough rock
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in some ways, i kind of disagree there. handling inventory/loot/potions/plot stuff is an integral portion to most any game, a lot of mmos/ctms depend on that kind of thing to feed rewarding feelings to the players

humble osprey
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So I guess it's just not an objective thing

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Because a lot of games streamline the idea of an inventory out of their game, and those are fun to me

sullen birch
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Additionally inventory "downtime" makes the gameplay "uptime" more valuable.

humble osprey
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Not necessarily

rough rock
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it's not objective, but it's very well studied and all of the major MMOs build it in and the CTMs lead to it naturally (players build a base on the monument or some other central spot every time)

agile spear
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If I'm running a dungeon for the first time or the 10th time, I'd personally like to focus on the dungeon and loot afterwards. However, the main thing I would like to see is the option of putting off caring about loot until after things are over.

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Most MMOs leave loot for either specific points or until the end.

humble osprey
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Yep

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Most mmos don't litter bullshit throughout a piece of content

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If we want to appeal to common practice

rough rock
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on the contrary, a good few do, and almost all ctms are a game of spread out chests

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just have to count the other means of loot. for example, during a wow raid the trash mobs do drop some loot, have rarer good drops, but there's also resource nodes, mobs to be skinned, and things to take apart

humble osprey
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A good few, such as

rough rock
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my main experience is wow, but the star wars mmo from god knows how long ago i played did it, and wow is a massive pile of "loot everywhere, main loot at end"

humble osprey
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(Namely the part where you have to interact with something rather than just walking over something to pick it up into your extremely convenient inventory system)

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If people had to pubg drag and drop (or similar) common mob trash drops into their inventory, I'd be surprised

sullen birch
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Our WoW trash mob drops are (currently) Soul Threads.

humble osprey
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Using common practice here again, the games where you pick up items almost all do it automatically without any shenanigans

agile spear
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Yeah, MMO looting is a "grab and go" system in most cases. You farm alot for the thing you want, rewards are put directly into your inventory without user interaction for most cases, and inventory management is not cared about mid dungeon.

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Since this is my first and only CTM, I can't give a valid opinion there.

humble osprey
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I might have not been precise by what I meant earlier, but clearly there's less inventory management during uptime in other mmos

humble osprey
sullen birch
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Such as..?

humble osprey
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And even in the base version of minecraft, it's a common complaint that inventory management sucks, so just because it exists doesn't mean that it's something to strive for

agile spear
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For the proposed item though, I think the niche is primarily streamlining solo play with group play requiring either lootbox/boee since that's the niche there.

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It's just unfprtunate that boee is so expensive.

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And is only really usable in group content where everyone has either a lootbox or boee.

humble osprey
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So, as expected really, the only thing that the loot system really compares to is the base game it's built on, as well as the maps it was inspired by (where the creators of the server also created some of the maps)
So the only reason it's still used is because inertia

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On a tangent here, but the loot system also enables some to ignore engaging with the content completely and just run to each loot location. "Lootrunning", if you will

Of course my proposition would make that a bigger problem, but I was also under the impression that by now, lootrunning is a tolerated emergent strategy in dungeons

agile spear
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It is. Even mscr had some videoes detailing how to use vibrant hollows specifically for lootruns.

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And that boiled down to axing the world XD

rough rock
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Tolerated but not really fed with better ways to eliminate progression play entirely

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Existing content for that is there for those who seek it

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Strikes, ec, arena, depths

agile spear
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But what if I wanted to lootrun brown, for instance?

humble osprey
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So far, my favorite method of loot has been r3 pois
I was extremely disappointed to see that it didn't carry over to r3 dungeons ngl

rough rock
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then it's currently a different loot style

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dungeons have had the r3 approach for a while, with a loot room with 4 chests and a guaranteed rare in them for completion

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end of poi chests are better loot drops from the same pool of drops

humble osprey
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R3 pois also are far less dense with chests, which is what I was referring to

agile spear
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It sounds like you mean to speed run it for the end chest while ignoring other chests?

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I think I missed the point 🤔

rough rock
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R3 chests are fewer but more valuable per in pois

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mostly due to removal of the 5 tiers of items

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fewer tiers and fewer of each

humble osprey
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The loot pinata had always technically been a thing, but the exact percentage of total loot it represented is different because of the chest distributions

R3 pois are places I consider to have a healthy amount of inventory management

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If there is no recourse to the necessity of interacting with every chest, then I'd prefer to at least have a smaller rate of chests to open per amount of content I've cleared

agile spear
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Yeah. R3 dungeons are something that yield the most profit, and are done once a week due to restrictions. I would prefer to not spend a crapload amount of time having to do inventory management when I can only play so much in a week.

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I wanna run around killing mobs and get through the dungeon while still having the option of going slower on first clears.

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These two ideals don't have to be mutually exclusive. Let the lootrunners lootrun while letting the slow and steady peiple go slow and steady. Just make the lootrunning part need an item to support it.

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In group content, that's the lootbox or boee. In solo, let's either use boee or have a new item that takes existing stuff (like purple tess and boee) as components.

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Also, personally as a side note, having the end of dungeons get a fancy loot pinata would by amazing IMO.

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And that's just the kid in me liking flashy stuff.

vivid gorge
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chest autoloot would be convenient and more enjoyable

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box of endless echoes genuinely a useless item. I find it wastes more time than it theoretically could save.

woven knoll
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I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, there is always some faint annoyance involved in looting because of the sheer number of inputs - you have to open the chest, double right-click to sort, shift-click each individual item that you want, and then interact with pcrys in your preferred way every 3-4 chests to sell tiered gear. It's especially bothersome when you misclick filler loot into your inventory that pcrys doesn't sell, so then you have to move it back again.

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On the other hand, I would also hate to see chests become something you just click without even looking at what you just looted. If we're going to bring up MMOs as an example, none of them just put loot in your inventory, regardless of how picking stuff up works it shows you what it is you got either before or after you picked it up without you having to go into your inventory to check manually.

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I honestly don't know if we really need an item for this because if you want the middle ground there's booping chests instead of opening them, which isn't perfect since your ability to choose what you do and don't pick up is limited to the available selection of pickup filters. But I think that's a good thing, since it forces you to stop every so often to get rid of junk loot (usually potions), or accept that you might miss interesting loot (like material items without a tier).

vivid gorge
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i mean this hypothetically is an item

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so if you really dislike the "lack of interactivity" chest looting with it provides, just don't use it

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and the people who like it will

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and to be honest, i doubt anyone feels bad about the way chests work in strikes. Granted, they are generally more "fast paced" content but still

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i'd enjoy the game as a whole being more fast paced, and right now looting chests only detracts from that for me personally, even if it's not much

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it doesn't help so many utility items get added that take up my inventory space, just to make looting all the more tedious

woven knoll
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I mean, even if it's optional it's more efficient, so people are quite strongly incentivised to use it and alter the way they play. And lootrunning is something TM already tries to discourage.

vivid gorge
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idk potion injector is an item that i disagree with really existing in the game personally, but it doesn't really matter and it's just something i choose not to use

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also idk what lootrunning has to do with it at all

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it'd just be nice in general. It's not a push to make "lootrunning" any better or something

vernal kindle
vivid gorge
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yeah it is just my biased opinion really

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hardly different from carrying potions in the inventory, just more convenient

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honestly something that i don't mind existing, but something i don't like using anyways. It was a poor choice of words

humble osprey
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I actually agree with that take, in that I think non-saturation consumable healing is pretty strong, and fully playing into it makes the hardest content pretty free

vivid gorge
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it's more an issue with consumable potions than it is the potion injector in reality

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it's not really the point though

agile spear
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Personally, I don't agree with the idea that lootrunning should be discouraged. Granted, this is my opinion and I am not a dev. This is TM's game, and their decision.

With regards to this hypothetical item, it won't really change the state of lootrunning. As-is, players will do things as fast as they can anyway if they want loot. The only thing this does is change the iteraction with chests.

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And as mentioned, it would be an item that could be expensive to obtain, so players can simply not have it to opt out of it, and those that want it can spend the time and resources needed to get it.

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Like how Remnant of the Rose makes completely changes how you interact with your storage, but requires a lot of ADE and clearing RoD to wave 40. Or how Mechanical Armory changes how you interact with your gear but requires a clear of portal and a metric crapload of resources to obtain (and even more to expand). In terms of other items, we have the aforementioned injector that is incredibly powerful for taking potions, but requires Verdant clears and a loooot of resources.