#LOOTBOX Frustrations Poll - Discussion

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

hybrid pike
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How else can you quantify and examine them?

civic kettle
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Anyone who's considering it from a purely mathematical point of view isn't even going to be doing this content, they'd be lootrunning story strike or pois

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By using comparative values

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Trying to make the most fair implementation of lootboxes is missing the forest for the trees

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You've overlooked why people want to it to be fair in the first place, because it feels bad

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Replacing it with an implementation that also feels equally as bad to a different portion of the population has defeated the purpose of changing how lootboxes work

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That just replaces one problem with a different similar problem

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One of the big issues with the current implementation of the lootbox is that people like to sit down together and open their boxes simultaneously when someone's lootbox fills

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That inevitably results in people comparing drops, and if there's noticeably significant variation in people's drops, it feels bad to whoever's "losing".

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Drops theoretically should equal out overtime over the course of the entire dungeon or multiple PoIs, but in the instant, it "feels bad" and that has higher impact on people's sense of fun.

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Replacing the current system with the duplication method replaces the issue of "feeling bad because you're getting worse loot than someone else" with "everyone feels bad because they haven't gotten a drop in an amount of time longer than they can stand"

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The "scoring" system isn't perfect, but it's one that's used because it minimizes the feeling of having worse loot than other people, being 1-2 "drops" behind is a lot easier to stomach for most people.

hybrid pike
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If what is basically the solo loot system feels bad, it's a problem with the solo loot system

civic kettle
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You also keep dismissing the median value whenever its brought up (mostly by xernial), but the median value is the simplest approximation to measure "fun"

thick horizon
civic kettle
hybrid pike
hybrid pike
thick horizon
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The current lootbox system builds on the solo loot system, everyone gets their own shares and their own rng instead of everyone getting the same as one persons. Which I honestly prefer

hybrid pike
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Unless I have completely misunderstood what a dev said near the start of the thread

civic kettle
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Something being "acceptable" being made worse does not make them the same or even similar

thick horizon
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That is literally true

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You get your own portion of the loot scale, that is how the lootbox works

civic kettle
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There is a nebulous level of variability in loot where the level of fun being derived starts dropping

hybrid pike
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it's not 'your own portion', it's generated first and then split

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if it was 'your own portion' I wouldn't have even proposed what I did

thick horizon
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You get the items that you contributed to the chest..?

hybrid pike
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no

thick horizon
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Which is not always equal

civic kettle
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That value is different for every player, but the duplication method will likely push past the tolerable level for at least some players

hybrid pike
civic kettle
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As playercount in the group goes up and variability increases, it'll surpass more and more player's bottom lines for what they can accept before they start experiencing less fun

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Having a system where fun decreases proportional to playercount is a huge mess btw

hybrid pike
civic kettle
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You get a bunch of people complaining with each other

civic kettle
hybrid pike
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it's a mess right now

civic kettle
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That's irrelevant, we're trying to come up with something better

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People already acknowledge the current system is flawed

hybrid pike
civic kettle
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You should be trying to argue that whatever suggestion is being made fixes the flaws

hybrid pike
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would require altering the loot generation system though

thick horizon
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I have seen no samples of how this works

hybrid pike
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how does it work right now? is it worse?

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I assume it's the same but loot is split by stacks

thick horizon
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Loot is split by who contributed it. Just like the solo loot system, you get the loot that you bring to the chest. Which is far from equal, as seen in how varying solo loot can be

hybrid pike
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is there a source?

obtuse girder
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.

hybrid pike
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so it is how it works right now

obtuse girder
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Source code for splitting is public

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through it may be better to read the code since I am bad at communication

stuck path
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Idk dry runs are just something that exists with or without lootbox

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Late reply rip

hybrid pike
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alright

obtuse girder
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through the opening player has an advantage if someone isn't running lootbox

thick horizon
hybrid pike
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yeah well that's unavoidable obviously

thick horizon
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no one ever told me something else when I mentioned that it works like that

hybrid pike
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If loot scaling was adjusted to not nerf loot under solo numbers per player, the current system would be decently fair tbh

thick horizon
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But I am going to ask, is this how it currently works

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or is it still #new-player-questions message

hybrid pike
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That's the main repo

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so I assume it's live

thick horizon
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I dont recall seeing a change ever mentioned in changelogs

viscid quartz
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u5b's code is a modification on the splitting part i believe

thick horizon
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I would like to see this new system (if it is new) in practice

hybrid pike
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I used lootbox a bit in pois, was getting some tiered, some currency consistently

obtuse girder
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My code was a modification of the splitting. I did some tests on dev and it seemed like it split more fairly.
But I wasn't sure so the change was pushed silently with the other lootbox changes. I definitely didn't forget to post it in changelogs

thick horizon
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I wonder if people reacted to A without even knowing about it withering

obtuse girder
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And it was only testing with two players :P

thick horizon
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I'll try to do some testing if I can

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perhaps with a group of 4

obtuse girder
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So it could be unfair with odd numbers, since there isn't any data kept between opens

hybrid pike
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I knew and still reacted to A, because difference in value is a thing, this system only considers type of item

stuck path
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Esp if they stopped using lootbox

thick horizon
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Yeah that's what I mean

stuck path
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I stopped using lootbox after the changes because the Cooldown was too annoying

obtuse girder
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I plan on making the cooldown less annoying by reducing it but I need to do more optimizations

hybrid pike
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what do you think of Xernial's score proposal btw?

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where it would consider the POI/dungeon instead of only one chest

obtuse girder
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hmm
I am not a good person to get an accurate opinion from since I don't touch balance pepeg

hybrid pike
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is it technically possible?

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to save the score

obtuse girder
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Yes

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But it also isn't exactly simple.

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There is some internal discussion based on a combination of yours and Xernial`s idea, but I will let them bring it up if they wish

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I don't exactly want to misinterpret and spread misinformation

hybrid pike
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ultimately the outcomes of mine and Xernial's systems are the same anyway

civic kettle
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How you get there matters too

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If not more

wispy scaffold
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So much complication for these silly items

woeful thorn
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Honestly I hate when I need to just spam in chat for like 15 min + trying to figure out who had loot box and trying to make him remove it

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Let me see who is using the lootbox is the 1st thing

obtuse girder
civic kettle
# obtuse girder There is some internal discussion based on a combination of yours and Xernial`s ...

How about having the lootbox have two different systems in tandem, one for "normal" loot and one for "high value" loot?

Use TRedux's duplication method for regular drops since it's easier to implement and the high frequency and drop rate means variability is a non-issue.

Track "high value" drops as a cross-instance progress meter that awards the drop once progress >= 1 (and subtract 1 from the meter, leaving the remainder). When the item drops, it gets divided into (1 / number of players present) progress distributed to every player.

hybrid pike
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I don't think progress addresses the variability concern some people have

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Or maybe I don't understand how you want that to work

civic kettle
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Can use standard drop rate with the progress system

hybrid pike
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do you mean that every player accumulates progress and gets the drop when it's filled?

civic kettle
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Yes

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The primary benefit of this system is that it accumulates between instances

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As an example scenario

hybrid pike
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do you want that to work per individual item type as well? like would mat/rare/pigment be tracked separately

civic kettle
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Let's say you're in a 4 man lootbox group and drop a pigment, everyone gets 0.25 progress towards a pigment

mystic belfry
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quick question

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does the mech of lootbox distribute changed recently

hybrid pike
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yes

mystic belfry
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I writing feedback

woeful thorn
mystic belfry
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but not sure about this part

civic kettle
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Total combines to 1 pigment, but it's held back until you get another 3 more pigments for +0.25 score each, and then finally distributes a pigment to everyone

hybrid pike
civic kettle
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However if your group is unlucky and fails to get 4 pigments, you'll be able to carry however many pigments your group got to the next group you play with

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It'll just be stored as, 0.25/0.5/0.75 pigments tracked to the player until then

mystic belfry
civic kettle
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.

hybrid pike
mystic belfry
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This is what we are using rn?

hybrid pike
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yes

mystic belfry
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Gocha

hybrid pike
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you can read the code in the plugin if you want

mystic belfry
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suffer I wish I didn't drop my java learning before

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but it seems readable for me

hybrid pike
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it has notes

mystic belfry
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nvm

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was wondering things but I answered myself while writing

image.png
viscid quartz
mystic belfry
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because I forgot this

image.png
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withering lootbox upgrade that automatic convert pigment to strands

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./j

woeful thorn
hybrid pike
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even alternating 4 player parties and 3 player parties would work fine

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the leftover score wouldn't be even, of course, but that's fine

woeful thorn
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what if 18 pt party

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with 4 people

hybrid pike
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0.25 score per drop then

woeful thorn
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but 18 pt

hybrid pike
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the delve points are not relevant there, they affect the loot, not distribution

obtuse girder
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@civic kettle your proposal is similar to the proposal internally, but is different
@void edge if you want to comment on it

civic kettle
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if you party with 3 people it just splits the 1 drop into 0.333 ea

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points or players is irrelevant

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it's still the same 1 drop split up

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did you just skip over the actual explaination and just read the example or something

void edge
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so whenever an item was generated, whoever has the highest "deservedness" score gets the item and has their score go down

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similar to xernial's thing I think but scaling with the number of players instead of being binary

hybrid pike
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is the score tracked per item type?

civic kettle
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I think it might be beneficial if the score was visibly trackable by the player as well

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So that when one player gets the drop, the other players still have a visual indicator of progress being made for them

civic kettle
void edge
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yeah

civic kettle
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that has an issue then with groups who use the lootbox as a storage mechanism but still split at the end of runs

void edge
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why

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my system would have no effect on the total composition of the items

civic kettle
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if "deservedness" tracks between instances and your group still splits at the end of the run you get the benefit of the drop while also getting the benefit of a "deservedness" advantage the next time you group up with other people who might not necessarily do splits, allowing double dipping

void edge
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you're equally likely to get a disadvantage though

whole ice
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How will people joining/leaving mid content impact this?

hybrid pike
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if the score is attached to the player it wouldn't

void edge
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yeah pretty much

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the more people are around, the less credit you get for not getting a rare, and the more credit you lose for getting a rare

civic kettle
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wait why more credit lost

void edge
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slightly more

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person who gets a rare loses (n-1)/n, people who don't get a rare gain 1/n

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so that it always averages to 0

civic kettle
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4 ppl:
0 -> -0.75
0 -> +0.25
0 -> +0.25
0 -> +0.25

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nvm ok I see

civic kettle
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idk maybe i'm nitpicking

hybrid pike
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the other players from the same first party balance it out

mystic belfry
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thonk oh I think I got how Pi's working so A:0.4 B:0.2 C:0.6 D:0.1 and here is a pigment it goes to C and C become -0.4

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oh nvm

obtuse girder
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mainly I could see an issue on leaving the dungeon (what if you went to grab anvils and come back) or POI content
and storing a seperate score for each piece of content seems excessive

thorny ice
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monunenta karma. . .

eternal barn
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there should be an option when starting dungeon just to automatically organize chests into player unique lootrooms, kinda like strikes. maybe require the player to for example shift 5 seconds next to the chest to collect replacing manual looting. have lootboxes serve a completely different purpose?

probably too big of a change but those are my thoughts

safe zephyr
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Just make it so lootbox autoloots a chest if there are no mobs within 5-10 blocks of the chest

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It doesn't work with lootrunners and saves inv space/time spent looting

lilac saddle
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I don’t think lootrunners potentially being able to save half a second per chest should be considered when adding qol features

safe zephyr
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If it was 5 blocks I doubt that would be an issue and even if it is you can loot it normally

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And it could be an aggroed mob

subtle harbor
safe zephyr
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Didn't consider that my bad

obtuse spruce
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You could always just add the anti lr protection to all dungeon shards and solve this issue while preserving the qol

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Fight lr with actual anti lr mechanics instead of compromising good qol items for it

olive briar
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the biggest problem BY FAR is loot distribution. I am still wondering how to fix this but there must be a solution-right?

full jungle
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I believe the plan so far is to just roll the loot and split up low tier items by their raw currency value, but the high tier items (Rares, mats, pigments, LORE) are currently undecided.

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(as far as we know)

civic kettle
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No?

obtuse girder
civic kettle
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Its like one screen length of scrolling up to see the current proposal…

obtuse girder
thick horizon
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I immediately forgot everything about it

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let me see if I can try without forgetting

thick horizon
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did 3 pois as 3 people, it uhh.. yeah

image.png
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will try a full dungeon run

obtuse girder
full jungle
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that seems bugged more than anything

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unless the top two people sold their charms

fierce crag
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Yeah I think the top two obviously sold their T3 and charms so money looks about average, but the mats augments and rares is a little 🥴

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Weirdly it does look sorta balanced around total value, if anything top person is getting screwed over imo

obtuse girder
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I wanted to see the split before selling

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mainly to see if this is an improvement or not

thick horizon
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Yeah the top two sold all charms and converted t3s to ar

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if you convert the charms and fragments on bottom to ar, they add up pretty equally

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will keep in mind to not sell next time

mystic belfry
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does anyone mention before

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lootbox didn't leave coreprotect logs

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which is Hmmm

obtuse girder
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because I forgot about depositing into a chest 🥴

mystic belfry
obtuse girder
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through I guess it would be nice to see what loot the other players got

mystic belfry
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it's a little complicate let me try reword

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there is ABCD 4 guy and A using lootbox BCD didn't use , after done the dungeon , the team suspect A didn't put the loot from their lootbox into the sharing chest.

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and at the situation where there isn't lootbox user , we can use co lookup to see the amount of mat to kinda know if everyone be honestly

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today I got an example of 10 people 25pt tff which only reward 20mat which is huh

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so they suspect the lootbox user but there isn't a way to check the item took by lootbox

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this is just minor issue or say QoL

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just to leave it here if someone want to pickup

obtuse girder
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I don't think it is feasible to do it via Coreprotect, since the items that go to the lootbox never actually enter the chest and leave a log
I guess we could embed the items in the tooltip of the chat message
but also, embedding a list of items for every chest opened may be spammy

mystic belfry
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ye fair

carmine plume
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is there a pickup filter for the lootbox? if so then my point is moot, but as a newer player, when i started using the lootbox i was a little annoyed at how i'd open all my shares and find my inventory was crammed with random garbage (several kinds of blocks, vines, unstackable soups i don't really want, etc). i would just throw everything into the selling station.

currently i don't use the lootbox and i instead go for the method of breaking chests, and with the item pickup filter i don't have to worry about getting any items i don't want (although i don't think my settings pick up any food).

actually i havent tried if the pickup filter works on the lootbox (when depositing into inv) so maybe my point is moot

civic kettle
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Lootbox uses your pickup settings now