Revisiting R3 Alchemist Bag Diversity

[deft path]

Originally wanted to do this for all 3 regions but r1 and r2 bag balance is kinda all over the place so I decided to not care about that part.
Right now I think R3 bags are not distinct enough, the bags all look pretty much the same with some minor changes, instead of different weapon with different niches (what its intended to be). Alch bags already doesn't have too much stats to play with compared to other mainhand weapons, so more diversity on stats would really make making choices more meaningful. Another minor issue that due to how damage is valued in alch gameplay, some bags gets too taxed in damage that their own advantages get shadowed, would be nice to improve upon this.
Anyways heres my concept for redesign of all R3 alch bags , also adding bags for each strike (since we do lack some numbers in terms of choices.)

[indigo hare]

fensap committing to the decay is a good change, currently it's completely forgettable

[silent badge]

Interesting concepts, though pot radius is important and MR bag radius looks near unusable

[deft path]

thats the price for regicide 2

it prob would be a niche weapon

but definitely have places to shine

[indigo hare]

Dissolvi replacement for alch? I guess

[silent badge]

For reference 2 radius in practice turns the bag into single target, which in this case could maybe be ok?

[deft path]

basically that yeah

[inland turtle]

7 bags for early r3 is overkill imo

we havent had the first terrain expansion yet

which will bring at least 2 new ones

[deft path]

We are probably at like 1/3 of r3 content?

there are 8 rare wands in r3 for reference

[vapid sable]

I found all of the current bags quite different
skt is speed, blue is all rounder and regen (noticeable since 9 hp), brown is standard damage, fensap is speed, keep is radius
They all once seem appealing to me except maybe fensap

But I would like to see more enchants being used on bags

[inland turtle]

alch bag diversity is good enough as it currently is

keep in mind later masterworks might increase diversity

[deft path]

considering the current usual way of masterworking doubt so

[deft path]

very much not the way tbh espeically if you compare it with other mainhand weapons

[quick island]

fensap having decay 6 seems pretty broken

[deft path]

its like 12dps with charms

it should be fine

[quick island]

its really not

[deft path]

only concern here is SE interaction

[quick island]

and you're talking like alch is a dps class

[deft path]

but thats niche enough to be a feature

[indigo hare]

omg screwdriver powercreep

insane

[deft path]

normal dot builds easily reach above 20

and thats a very not minmaxed build

[indigo hare]

best we can do is decay 3

[quick island]

the point is you can build full tank and just the decay alone will do 130 dot dmg

[indigo hare]

take it or leave it

[vapid sable]

Decay has some fundamental problems of being hard to scale other than more dmg I feel
And it’s only via charms

[deft path]

some1 tell this guy about inferno

[quick island]

"full tank"

[deft path]

someone tell this guy warlock exists

sonic screwdriver literally exists already and you are complaining about 12 decay dot at the cost of 1/3 pot damage and 4 charm slots

[indigo hare]

copper furnace + inferno charms is 14s of 145% inferno damage, veinshredder gets inferno 4 so 4x1.45x14 for 81.2

add one (1) inferno item and suddenly decay falls off again

or just wait for charm power to increase and add one more inferno charm

[quick island]

and whats the cd of copper furnace

[indigo hare]

5s in a crazy big aoe

that hits through walls way better than what alch can do with that bag

and pretty sure its got some vertical range too but I didn't play warlock long enough to figure that out

[deft path]

the only potential stuff to be op here is SE interaction and even that I think is fine

[silent badge]

The highly anticipated sequel

Fensap Flask vs Shatter 3 Witchbane

Maybe we can finally up it to Shatter 2

On a more serious note, the bag diversity is cute but doesn’t really do much in the way of actually providing diversity

Silver Satchel is king
Moltencopper and Hexbound are sidegrades for players that specifically dislike Silver’s proj speed
Shadebound is… there? Not sure that the radius increase is worth the ~20% base damage sacrifice, particularly when Oversize Flask exists
Fensap Flask 🗿

Doesn’t help that Alchemist at its base is underperforming relative to other classes at their bases

[deft path]

right now many stats are more like flavors

[woven cedar]

SE doesn't interact with decay in any way

[deft path]

oh yeah aliment damage

then I think its free to go tbh

[woven cedar]

Personally while I do agree that bag diversity isn't incredible, I do think every single R3 bag is good - I don't really care for hexbound, and I do think Fensap has a bit of wasted potential, but like, they're all good and viable choices

I personally run shadebound as my only bag

so I can vouch for it being quite solid

[deft path]

I think they should be a bit more different

[deft path]

don't you only use it cause no one else does

[woven cedar]

Nah, shadebound allows me to commit some real warcrimes

[deft path]

right now its worse than DD bag

[indigo hare]

I agree with galactic, just because they look different on paper doesn't make them meaningfully different enough to choose one over the other

[woven cedar]

15-block wide AA casts that basically are guaranteed to kill every non-elite mob in the room

[deft path]

which is concerning tbh

[indigo hare]

15 block wide?

I guess with oversized

[woven cedar]

oversized flask affects AA radius yea

I basically get to run around nuking pois to bits

[deft path]

would be nice if its better than DD bag

[indigo hare]

Pretty funny that brutal charm rework makes damage strictly affect potions, but not radius

[woven cedar]

R2 bags being better than R3 bags is to be expected imo, given that the baseline from R2 to R3 alch damage pre-rework (like back when damage scaled with skill points) was effectively identical, and even with R2 bags being arguably better than their R3 counterparts, R3 alch is performing way better than R2 alch

[deft path]

I might start using keep bag if its reworked like the proposal, right now the damage debuff is too great imo

[woven cedar]

It's weird and unintuitive how R3 bags have less damage than R2 bags, but to remedy that would be to either nerf R2 alch into unusability or unreasonably buff R3 alch which is already in a pretty balanced state

[deft path]

comparing the forum bag and brown bag I think its intended to be slightly above r2 bag

[indigo hare]

Or we shoot elixir enhancement

[deft path]

like 0.5 more damage

[woven cedar]

the secret is that forum bag sucks

and people who use it don't know what they're doing

[deft path]

so does brown

[woven cedar]

true, true

but still, I think R3 bags are in a pretty okay place

[deft path]

Its more of making them into more different side grade than actually buffing them

I think most of the proposed bags still have simillar power levels

[woven cedar]

the answer is simple, just nerf silver satchel 😎

hate that bag

stinky garbage bag

[deft path]

Its ok tbh

2 speed feels like it have its own ups and downs

[deft path]

Its the only way to survive as 100% damage build

I can't imagine living with stuff like brown bag

[woven cedar]

given you buffed every bag in relation to silver satchel, the obvious answer is to nerf silver satchel 🤯

[rapid idol]

No

Not my child

[deft path]

no bags are technically buffed (besides the keep one)

(I think vapour flask would be pretty fun if thats a thing)

[deft path]

I usually balance around a hypothetical 1 speed silver satchel

since I believe 1->2 proj speed is a sidegrade

[woven cedar]

tbh if there was a good hex eater weapon in R3 (Please 😭), then fensap as-is could be a quite solid melee alch pick tbh

[rapid idol]

No

[woven cedar]

most constructive and useful tuesday shark response

[rapid idol]

Yes

[deft path]

is melee alch even close to real

[woven cedar]

if hex eater existed, maybe

[deft path]

it would likely benefit tenebrist much more

[woven cedar]

hear me out, hex eater but it's a sword

[deft path]

use scythe for skill and sword for melee 🤯

[woven cedar]

or even better, a throwable trident

[elder helm]

Soul blade my beloved 😭

[wary mulch]

Everywhere except for r3, but that's the same case for melee scout, we have too little options still

[deft path]

mfw no dev

[dusky wharf]

I felt like the dmg increase is a bit too unneccesary on all of them and i disagree on molten copper change, but overall a solid idea

[deft path]

its pretty much not a buff in most cases

[dusky wharf]

Since molten copper a defence pot

[deft path]

its more of changing them to be more different to each other

I dont like defensive options right now

maybe in the future we can have more defensive options but brown fits better as a bis damage pot

[dusky wharf]

Would it be if ice and fire aspect works on alchbags

[deft path]

it does

[dusky wharf]

Huh?

[deft path]

but you can see why it isnt a thing

[woven cedar]

Ice aspect on pots wouldn't be that broken

But fire aspect is a no-go

Unless the radius is real small

[deft path]

it would be decay 2 anyways

and I think decay synergizes better with alch

[woven cedar]

In what way?

[deft path]

(this feels a weird sentence to say)

[woven cedar]

Fire has more synergies inherently

Choler/fueled

Are both either fire or ice aspect

Decay has basically no synergies whatsoever

Except with hex eater

[deft path]

mostly just no need to change armor so you can keep your current build

since decay "builds" only take mainhand charms space

[woven cedar]

Fensap with ice aspect could be neat

[deft path]

I decided to reserve it for later content

gonna put it on my 7.5 radius bag idea

Also thoughts on the trivium bag?

can't decide if its op or bad

[vapid sable]

Pretty op
Especially with 3.5 radius

[dusky wharf]

Inferno alch

Real

[deft path]

was debating between 11 and 10.5 damage

10.5 would likely make it underpowered thought

[weary briar]

for once i agree with some of these ideas
mr pot is overstatted but the others are reasonable
although they have said the difference between pots will be much more noticeable once we get higher tiers of mw

[deft path]

1.75 pot radius is like

very very miserable

[wooden token]

So, Galactic, you’ve been making a lot of threads like this recently, and I’d like to remind you of a pin we have in suggestions and why I think your feedback here isn’t something we can effectively action on:

• Item/class buffs / nerfs will also usually be rejected because it will be very hard for you to get a suggestion so precisely right that we will be able to use it exactly. If you want to try one of these anyway, please stick to ideas that you are sure we did not consider.

A core reason why suggestions like the one you’re making here are so challenging to both discussion and action on is twofold.

Firstly, by providing your own ideas for what these items should be, the discussion stops being about what the current issues with the items you and others might have and instead becomes about if your new ideas work or are balanced. This dilutes both your feedback and any following discussion.

Secondly, like said in the suggestion pin, we as a team has less of an idea of what your issues with an item is when the suggestion being made is less “I have issues with this item” and more “here’s what I want”. What you want specifically from the item isn’t always gonna be the best balance or something we can take action on.

I think in order to succeed with suggestions like this, you’d be better off talking about what the current issues are rather than seeking to just recreate the items yourself.

[deft path]

I tried to address the issues in the body of the text but ultimately there's only that much that can be said without repeating it several times over. I personally think giving examples are the best way of commenting on issues. Treat it as a point of direction more than an instruction of precisely what to do. Would also want more feedback from the item team to explain their current item design principle too, to see why the items are at this current state

[deft path]

Also since we are like two months off alch rework so I don't think most of us have a clear idea of what to do with stats, some clear examples will make discussions easier.

[wary mulch]

I just want fensap decay to be cranked up a bit, rest feels okay

[deft path]

decay 1 is pretty much a flavor enchant

[dusky wharf]

I mean, alch dot is already strong enough that decay doesnt really matters
I did 25 dps just by brutal 2 + focused and lesser charms

Mobs defonitely died in that 4 seconds if i use artillery

[deft path]

It would be funnier if decay is made viable

[dusky wharf]

If...
In...
Fer....
No...
Alch...

[deft path]

I think decay will work better on alch tbh

[wary mulch]

Ok but hear me out
Inferno

[deft path]

inferno needs more great to work

so it eats away your magic damage

[vapid sable]

inferno:

• does not proc SE
• does not proc trivium
• does not scale with FoL, strength, magic dmg
• requires just as much charm slots (6 stars)
• copper furnace exists
• abilities that does not apply on hit is now shit
• you die in 3 hits

• dopamine
• get to see mobs in full brightness
• good indicator of who you have hit
• choler and fueled
• damage is ok
• potentially get omega buffed by a future inferno item

yk I wouldn't mind fire aspect