#Delve Modifier Poll

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frosty plover
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a 2/3 tap nuisance if silence/malediction

meager basin
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malediction was created to be solely annoying and I hate it

frosty plover
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yeah

crude ingot
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So true

frosty plover
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it’s just a slow walking middle finger

low gust
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Honestly it's really nice that there are at least enough fun mods to run mid point delves without being too annoyed

frosty plover
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i like the new dread though

low gust
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Oh yeah

frosty plover
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most of the time it dies but oh man

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when it’s alive

low gust
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I like how it punishes you for not prioritizing it

frosty plover
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shit hits the fan in a good way

low gust
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But in a way that's fun

frosty plover
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however it does lead to moments where mob collision cucks you from being able to hit it

flat gull
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New dread new colossi are based

frosty plover
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thanks mojang once again

frosty plover
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but eh it’s ok ig

low gust
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I like the new colossi because it's actually a threat to rogues but not an obnoxious one

frosty plover
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kind of a bruh moment that it’s getting buffed though

low gust
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Meteor is a bit much

frosty plover
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it’s actually getting meteor???

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not just a jump

low gust
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Nah that's the one then

frosty plover
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if it actually gets a meteor slam that’s actually a bit much

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a jump i’m fine with

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maybe

meager basin
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new dread is cool as hell just from design and the sound it makes but I can’t really properly form an opinion until it stops dying in .02 seconds

frosty plover
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if i wanted to get unfairly blown up from a jumping mob on low ceiling hallways i’d fight twisted champion

crude ingot
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I think it's safe to say that the proposed calamity meteor slam change is very unpopular

frosty plover
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no way it’s actually being thought of

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not only does it have that rider aoe

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but also a hog aoe

meager basin
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also new dread’s bombs just die in lava so the people that were worried of ranged elites like e white ghasts spawning new dread and it be annoying to deal with can relax

frosty plover
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lmao

crude ingot
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Sounds like a bug

frosty plover
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fire has always been effective against disease carriers

meager basin
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true

crude ingot
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Jk yeah honestly that sounds fine

frosty plover
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dreads are mostly going to die in lava anyways

meager basin
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new dread really does just sound super creepy which is fitting for dreadnaughts

frosty plover
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why should this be any different

crude ingot
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It's always very weird when wither skeleton elites fall into lava or something and can't do anything but they keep spamming their abilities at you

frosty plover
crude ingot
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Sans

frosty plover
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dislike

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the sans is ok because it misses lmao

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that heal has massive range

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and ends up being annoying

low gust
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That's a design issue

frosty plover
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good thing i can take a lava dive

low gust
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Making ghosts elites lmao

frosty plover
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no

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it’s not

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it’s great

low gust
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As a player I agree

frosty plover
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role: rogue

crude ingot
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Rogue speech bubble ^

frosty plover
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elite ghasts are awesome

low gust
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I'm meaning the dreads just dropping from thin air into nowhere

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Phantom dreadnought when

dreamy nexus
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I like when the delve mods have genuinely unsettling noises (some of the astrals are creepy)

frosty plover
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the only sound i ever hear from pestilence is WOSOKWWOAOAOWOCHING

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guess what sound that is

dreamy nexus
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As funny as Eta is it would be terrifying to hear it out in a nearby field at like 12 AM

frosty plover
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rogue speech bubble

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what if eta moo is reference to cow abduction myths

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real

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does he know?

dreamy nexus
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Nu is also like the only Astral that actually makes cosmic-sounding noises

frosty plover
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i like nu

dreamy nexus
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It also makes a star pattern so

frosty plover
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i also like alpha

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constant barrage of starlight

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or blight

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i think it’s the brilliance of a star

dreamy nexus
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We should make a pillar for every doorway skin 🧌

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Waiting for the secret special astral with undyed doorway

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Spawns bullets at the edges of its range that come inward

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That would be pretty cool

frosty plover
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stardust reverie

barren kindle
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Predict is in a list with other words about planning your next move. You can not plan your next move around current haunted beyond "Ah, i will die soon" and just running into it to speed up the death. It is predictable in that regard, but it fails in every other aspect of that list, which is why its not my point. Do you atleast agree that current haunted cant be worked around or waited for?

frosty plover
opal oracle
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I wouldn't be surprised if half the ratings for haunted were from melee players that tried it once on release and swore never to touch it again

fervent crane
# barren kindle Predict is in a list with other words about planning your next move. You can not...

The way you worded this makes it sound completely impossible, you leave the safety of spawn and just run head first straight into it until you leave the dungeon.

Obviously you don't have eyes in the back of your head, but you can still get a good idea of where the shade is and to move in a direction... that isn't towards it, and you can learn it's speed based on your speed to predict the path it will travel.

Both direct line travel + follow player path travel can be predicted and can get in the way, in the current system if you don't move, it doesn't either so yes you can work around it or wait for it depending on the size/shape of your own movements.

I completely agree with you that haunted's movement is kind of jank, annoying and not all too fun, but the way you're speaking so absolutely doesn't make for good conversation

opal oracle
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it's not the most entertaining gameplay, but I've walked the haunted out a distance then went back in to make more space, which definitely is a form of counterplay

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classes without mobility suffer a hell of a lot more though, I could get around the haunt in challenge gray by positioning bodkin in ways I normally wouldn't, but I'd be pretty stuck thinking how to get around it if I played warlock (and I use ire frequently, it's not quite enough for the haunt imo)

strange wedge
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Oh wtf the poll expired early

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92 results is a great sample size though

torpid crypt
# barren kindle Predict is in a list with other words about planning your next move. You can not...

the thing is not closing on a player in a straight line faster than they can escape it, so there is typically something that can be done, as well as running through it if stuck in a corner if memory serves. there's counterplay to it, just not a playstyle that negates it per se. there's also very few absolutes in a game like this, so speaking in/only asking for agreement in absolutes makes it hard to communicate and discuss a point.

opal oracle
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the knockback haunted inflicts doesn't make running through particularly auspicious, if you take 2 hits you're probably dead b/c you were under pressure

hearty quarry
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haunted does deal pretty significant knockback though

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I've tried to run through it to escape in tight situations and it just slams me right back into the corner

visual kelp
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The poll has come to a close! The final results for placement can be found below.

S++
[5.0] Twisted
S+
[6.3] Dreadful
S
[7.1] Astral
[7.3] Pernicious
[7.7] Colossal
A+
[8.7] Legionary
A
[9.8] Chivalrous
[9.9] Spectral
[10.2] Entropy
[10.6] Carapace
[10.9] Unyielding
[11.0] Bloodthirsty
[11.0] Vengeful
B
[12.1] Riftborn
C
[13.3] Arcanic
D
[14.1] Transcendent
[14.3] Chronology
[14.8] Infernal
[15.2] Assassins
[15.4] Haunted
F
[16.5] Fragile

cunning coyote
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Fragile lul

visual kelp
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I really wanted to cram Fragile into D but that's a 1.1 point deficit when tiers were broken at about 0.6

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and the problematic nature of Fragile is different from the problematic natures of the D tier mods

meager basin
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fragile has the biggest number so clearly it's the best

visual kelp
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Ideally every mod should strive for A performance, there is no realistic chance that every delve modifier can go higher than A all at once

torpid crypt
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fragile wins!

visual kelp
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I would once again like to thank everybody who participated in the poll and engaged in discussion here. My goal with this poll was to get some solid ideas on how players feel about the current state of each delve modifier and all of you pulled through spectacularly.
Though it was not my initial intention, I do hope that this information can be used by the powers that be to continue to make the game better and better.

crude ingot
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Pretty insightful

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Like any good study acknowledging limitations like possible class bias or the abstract question of what does “best” mean

visual kelp
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I hope I got that message across well, it seems to have since most discussion here wasn't nitpicking class interactions

fickle glade
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Thank you for your service

raw drum
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Doing what God couldn't do

flat gull
raw drum
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lmfao the gap between Fragile and Haunted

flat gull
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Arcanic being a whole tier above transcendent/infernal is criminal

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but I do agree with the ordering of them

raw drum
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suprised pernicious is so high

flat gull
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I think it's so high not because people think it's well designed, but they like it because it's easy

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Because it's basically free points (especially in overly-bedrocked dungeons/strikes like portal and brown)

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It would be very satisfying if transcendent and infernal were moved up into C tier, then you could have C be damage-ability mods and D be "shitty rotationals"

slender hamlet
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i think pern is one of the easiest but it’s in my bottom 5 because i just don’t like terrain being ripped out from under me

wheat matrix
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wait i just thought haunted was a funny lil halloween event before this yey

torpid crypt
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Appeared near Halloween, but it's not seasonal

wheat matrix
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Oh. Wouldnt know, i havent played delves in forever

low gust
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I find pernicious fun because it changes the layout of the dungeon and actually results in more sandbox interaction which I greatly enjoy in minecraft ctm mmo
I also love it when you hear something beelining straight to you while chewing through blocks; one of the most intimidating sounds around.

quartz rover
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i dislike pern because i like pathways that i can walk across

north eagle
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I love perni because it changes up gameplay and paths, forcing you to adapt and work with what they created, often making funny situations or easy skips

mellow cipher
quartz rover
fringe hemlock
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What if we made the twisted ability to place blocks to normal mobs too

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(X*7)% per level

flat gull
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add that to pern lul

fringe hemlock
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Reverie after i select block placement

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The town has become even more beautiful

quartz rover
sly bridge
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Constructive
While further than 3 blocks from a player, mobs have a (8%/16%/24%/32%/40%) chance to be able to place blocks while in pursuit.
(also changes how Twisteds can place blocks)

fringe hemlock
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Me when twisted block on melee class

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Fun

barren kindle
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It is entirely based on how far away the haunted is when the fight starts

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and the hp of the mobs.

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if either A: you dont instnatly kill everything, or B: the haunted isn't super far away, you die.

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That's its problem. There isno "juking" it because it goes through all other things you have to avoid.

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There is no running away because its (i think) 80% of your speed, which all goes away once you have to stop to adjust and deal damage.

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It is an absolute, so i will speak of it that way.

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I will say that haunted should simply be removed, period, however if you wished to actually implement it in a more fun way, you should follow the general game design principles. But it will still be annoying.

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Haunted does not work unless you build around it, and monumenta isn't built around it.

cunning coyote
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A modifier without bug can’t be remove I think

barren kindle
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They can remove it.

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but it feels like the devs REALLY love it, and have never actuallyy played with it. I dont know why they defend it so much when its clearly not liked.

cunning coyote
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After we got delve 2.0 I didn’t see a modifier that didn’t be remove without bug

barren kindle
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Relentless

cunning coyote
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It has bug

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Velocity carry on bug

barren kindle
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really? i never heard of that one. huh.

cunning coyote
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It’s bad for melee class that the mob within 5 blocks still has some form of speed bonus

eager mango
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Yeah that happens for the paladin-like mobs in Forum too, side effect of that skill

cunning coyote
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Find a unfixed-able bug about haunted and here we go darkkermit

barren kindle
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i mean

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i have found a bug

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that hasn't been fixed.

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Which is reported internally, and i will not give you details on.

opal oracle
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The position of the haunted before a fight starts is important sure, but you don't have perfect knowledge of what happens with a spawner(s) interaction until the mobs show up, you don't know if Twisted X will show up, whether there's a colossal you can't deal with in the spawner, or an astral in the chest that refuses to spawn until you're literally on top of it

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I would want more room to play around it (asking the player to run through it when it deals so much true damage is very unreasonable) but it does not seem like something I would reduce to an absolute

crude ingot
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Me when killing mobs forces the haunted back:

opal oracle
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(I didn't rate haunted very highly, it there's some potential in the idea but I haven't found people to run it with within my friend group post changes)

crude ingot
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Honestly not breaking spawners so you have a more constant supply of mobs to push haunted back sounds funny

barren kindle
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i already mentioned the HP of the mobs, that includes twisteds.

midnight sun
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can someone post a clip or even a longer video where haunted interferes with your gameplay

cunning coyote
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#videos-and-streams I think has one

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But sadly most is before change

opal oracle
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I remember haunted was getting a lot of kills

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Relative to anything else

slender hamlet
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i don’t think it has to be so deep tbh haunted is just fucking annoying cut and dry

barren kindle
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@fervent crane instead of just reacting with pepega how about you post a video of you, as bers, easily avoiding haunted without having to constantly run away from fights?

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That'll be some good evidence to prove your point

low gust
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my lootrun is barely affected suffer

barren kindle
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Its actually a good strat to lootrun and use haunted to die faster so you can re-start your lootrun without mobs.

quartz rover
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When I did a blue (?) delve with my friend, the overwhelming majority of our deaths were from haunted

opal oracle
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I wonder if replay mod can watch from the haunted pov

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Could be pretty interesting

raw drum
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I think Haunted is still oppressive as all hell but at the very least its somewhat manageable

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Atleast my experience from r2 & r3

low gust
fervent crane
barren kindle
torpid crypt
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you aren't gonna win over any hearts and minds being like this to people trying to communicate with you, only causes people to dig their heels in or just outright ignore you, and given these chats are about changing people's mind on something to cause actual game change, it's just tiring and ineffective

barren kindle
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Are you going to prove that haunted isn't an absolute or argue against that point, or are you gonna keep saying you can't argue against it? You can aboslutely argue against it but no one has actually tried to provide any sort of counter example that works in reality.

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I have played with haunted, I know how it works. I know how these type of enemies should work.

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I am telling you my exprience and the best way to play with it.

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Why are you even defending haunted, even if you disagree with my method of argumentation?

cunning coyote
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I like discussion instead argue / defend points . Because most points can be scrapped down to many parts in reality.

mellow cipher
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Perhaps they disagree with your standard of "how these type of enemies should work"

barren kindle
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Well, then how should they work? because clearly, current haunted doesn't. Unless it does, which no one has really argued for either.

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I provide my method because it's been used in other games, and because it works to be fun in those situations.

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(of course, those had the ability to be designed around the concept, which monumenta isn't, which i have said before).

cunning coyote
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I think

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DRG or sth

barren kindle
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Everyone is saying i'm being absoluteist without actually giving another example or even a method to properly deal with it.

cunning coyote
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I didn’t I think

barren kindle
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One thing that the other modifiers have (expect transient's rapid fire missiles, honeslty) can be delt with as most classes. Very few are unplayable as a specific class.

low gust
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There's like one or two people saying that

mellow cipher
barren kindle
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I mean "everyone" as in "the people disagreeing with me specifically"

rich arch
# barren kindle Why are you even defending haunted, even if you disagree with my method of argum...

I fully agree with you, haunted sucks for me and completely counters my style of play. However, I think it's rarely appropriate to deal in absolutes, as there is almost always multiple solutions or ways to improve (sometimes a unique solution is desired rather than typical game design solution). Not to mention, while it was rated one of the lowest, we must still understand that there very could well be people that run haunted and enjoy it, and are able to play around it well.

barren kindle
cunning coyote
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😛 sometimes take a step back and take a rest is good . I’m not assuming you might be not at good situation irl rn. Just when you found out people being againest you

barren kindle
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Its why I love game design because there are game design tropes that work very well for 90+% of people, and figuring out why those tropes work is what is fun for me. This is a trope, a more uncommon one, of game design.

cunning coyote
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Have a good day , discussion > argue/defends. I need to take an exam irl bye.

barren kindle
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The fundamental problem is limiting the player's actions (or player agency, as it is normally called). The method people have come up with to minimize player agency loss while keeping the mechanic is the one I've provided.

low gust
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I think it's fair to ask for footage of someone enjoying it
Just because in general if something is so ostensibly polarizing there's a chance that a high degree of unaware masochism is in play
It's why I always supplement me saying like "gray challenge was awesome" with like "it's quite fucked up tho"

opal oracle
torpid crypt
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I just don't record my gameplay, like ever, so I'm not sitting on a pile of clips for usage

barren kindle
opal oracle
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Once all the info is revealed you could argue it's a rated outcome, but if you always knew which spawners would trigger a colossus or twisted and which one, well I'd imagine they'd be a lot less capable of killing you

torpid crypt
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played a good few haunteds amongst the release and changes done later, it's not the best mod in the world but it's not objectively bad or needs removal

rich arch
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I have heard of people considering haunted a "free" modifier, which seems crazy to me but hey

barren kindle
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Scout, i can see it.

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Scout moves very little and can stay at range.

low gust
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It's free as a lootrunner

eager mango
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I can see it if you are a caster/ranged

barren kindle
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But, a modifier working for 1/8 isn't a good modifier IMHO.

opal oracle
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Sleeping raven's willingness to listen to feedback and make changes is part of the reason why I want to go to bat for twisted

rich arch
low gust
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Twisted is really just so fun too

meager basin
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it's certainly free on scout

barren kindle
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I cant think of another modifier that works only for 1 class.

low gust
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Even bullshit is fun because its only just an encounter and it isn't coloring the entire delve

barren kindle
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(and even then, i feel like with other modifiers like a little bit of bloodthirsty, haunted becomes bad even with scout)

meager basin
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not really

torpid crypt
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I think I've played it with mage and warrior, both weren't too bad (mage in initial release, warrior much later)

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just takes more active focus on kiting than standard

opal oracle
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In a challenge gray I saw someone swap to scout and guardian trying to just get something done

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Neither seemed to work out well for them

low gust
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I want all haunted ununenjoyers to run challenge gray to see if they enjoy it as much as I did

opal oracle
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(this is fairly early in haunted release, no pushback, I was assassin and it was rough, certainly rougher than other mods, but almost enjoyable)

eager mango
low gust
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Scout worked very well for me in it ngl

torpid crypt
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That's the other thing, I'm not playing it in a challenge delve built to be incredibly punishing, I'm just playing it as a delve mod in a set of a few chosen mods

barren kindle
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I have beaten grey and brown challenge.

low gust
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I had to switch off sage because I needed to stop crit jumping

barren kindle
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Magenta is soon.

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Actually, i dont think i died a single time in brown that wasn't caused or indirectly from haunted.

low gust
barren kindle
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To be fair, haunted does have a pretty big bug currently.

low gust
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Haunted is fine because of that bug 😇

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I know what it is by context

barren kindle
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DM me, i doubt it.

low gust
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Which is why I'm refraining from describing it

mellow cipher
crude ingot
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🤯 Withholding bugs from being reported to keep the modifier easier

eager mango
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Alittar mentioned the bug has been reported internally

low gust
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It's reported

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I would have otherwise

rich arch
barren kindle
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I have told the devs all i know about the bug so far.

mellow cipher
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Haunted was inspired by Deep Rock Galactic's Unknown Horror enemy, for the record. Not Boo

barren kindle
low gust
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Tho it's an interesting idea if haunted couldn't move if it was in LOS

barren kindle
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You can't really stay still without dying in actual combat, and most levels aren't designed with it in mind.

low gust
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You can back strafe in mm which makes that much more viable of a counter
Maybe too viable

barren kindle
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depends on what LoS means, if its just seen at all it'll be completely free for all classes.

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due to back strafe and often ability to rotate around mobs

mellow cipher
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Delve mod #173

low gust
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Honestly worth pondering haha

opal oracle
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Don't boos have start up slowness before approaching at full speed?

low gust
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Though I can see it having the same issues relentless had

opal oracle
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They also can just be outrun entirely, but different game different balancing, apples to oranges etc.

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And I seem to recall an ability to just blitz through a boo if you burn your feather cape flying, but can't be 100% sure on that

low gust
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Mario could never do a challenge delve of 8-7 😱

craggy garnet
tough raven
mellow cipher
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It's a good game design discussion. Glad we have a forum to think it through

opal oracle
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I guess one of the good things I like about haunted is that with a familiar/good team/communication, you can cover for each other in a pinch

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There's clips I've seen where the haunt eats you alive because the player is shielding from mobs and takes chip Knockback until the haunt murders them

mellow cipher
opal oracle
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In the challenge gray I was familiar with the other player and we could work on picking off mobs and giving each other breathing room

mellow cipher
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Purely to safety.

opal oracle
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UA Knockback can be ok

opal oracle
sour flower
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honestly haunted feels more like something that should be seasonal

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like only in halloween week

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its funny first time I play it but having it shoehorned into challenge delves are just unfun

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a shame because magenta is my personal favourite in r1

slender hamlet
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haunted, to me, is disproportionately more annoying than any other delve mod, which is why i think it’s so widely disliked. it feels like the burden of 10 or 15 delve points in other modifiers

barren kindle
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I wont ever take something someone says online personally against them, and dont hold grudges against people who disagree with me.

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Its an immatrue practice and makes you seem like a worse person.

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You may disagree with me, you can dislike my argumentation style (even though i've provided exactly what you need to do to prove me wrong), but hating me personally makes no sense.

visual kelp
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Look I know this was guaranteed to happen sooner or later but can we focus less on who is arguing/how they are delivering their argument and more on what is being argued

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I hate that I have to reiterate this every time big topics come up here but please be both serious and respectful in the discussions here

slender hamlet
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side point i don’t understand why fragile is hated so much after the release of challenge delves. some people seem to really push back on the “just don’t play it” argument but like actually there’s nothing making you play it so idgi

raw drum
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Why exist in the first place doe

eager mango
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(except that one pass mission but I agree with you)

visual kelp
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The argument against 'just don't pick it' usually turns back to the fact that it requires server resources to keep around that could go to something more meaningful to the game

eager mango
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Okay, what

craggy garnet
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im of the mindset that just because something is optional doesn't mean it is excused from criticism or being less fun/poorly designed

eager mango
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What resources?

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A couple of scoreboard values?

slender hamlet
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i personally don’t play fragile because i enjoy more challenging delves where i am liable to die. but i know many players who enjoy playing with a sort of discipline where they would go slow and often clear deathless. and it suits them very well

crude ingot
visual kelp
torpid crypt
slender hamlet
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i don’t think it’s less fun (doesn’t change gameplay whatsoever), but i do see the argument that it fundamentally is not a delve mod (doesn’t change gameplay whatsoever)

torpid crypt
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it'd probably be more work and break more things to remove it at this point

raw drum
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But we'll celebrate its removal 🥺🥺🥺

crude ingot
low gust
# crude ingot ^

fr
we'd rather have to actually have to think about what mods we should play with instead of easily being able to choose the same pern 5 dread 5 colo 5 twisted/astral

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and seeing a mod we'd never pick feels bad because its infringing on the potential diverse pool

slender hamlet
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i think fragile a perfectly good option for some players, but i seldom wish to play that way myself

craggy garnet
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i think fragile goes against the general style of play of Monumenta nowadays which is very momentum-based and fast, with gameplay often relying on how fast you can move between encounters to maintain your buffs (Stamina comes to mind immediately, but Sharpshooter, Ronde Stacks and Advancing Shadows (u) fall into this category)

eager mango
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The removal of fragile doesn't automatically translate in a new mod

crude ingot
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For me personally it's like, fragile could be interesting as an extra hardcore/limited lives mod, but it just doesn't accomplish that because the drawback for dying is purely monetary, a "pay 30 cxp when you die"-type deal

raw drum
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Yeah but it translate a celebration

slender hamlet
#

i fail to see what the removal of any one singular delve mod would achieve

craggy garnet
#

fragile punishes you for dying not by any meaningful gameplay way, but your bank account which is a secondary system to the actual gameplay of a delve

#

it ropes the combat gameplay into the economy game in a weird way imo, and it doesn't work out well

eager mango
slender hamlet
#

i forget entropy exists in 2023

eager mango
#

Yeah me too lol

torpid crypt
#

probably even leads to slower mod additions imo, if a new mod comes out and ends up in this situation and removed, dev interest in putting the work behind proposing and shipping a mod prob drops

slender hamlet
#

i just take all the mods that give the new potions these days. dread twisted etc

low gust
craggy garnet
#

fragile also just directly cuts into the profits made of the dungeon, which no other delve mods do

torpid crypt
#

not so much an argument to keep one, but just a note

raw drum
#

Cant really rework fragile, atleast with haunted there was an attempt to make it less brutal

#

Though fair that is demotivating

opal oracle
#

I don't like what fragile is, and do not want to see anything like it in the future, and if it can stop here (it being modifiers that don't actually change what you're doing and inflict metaconsequences instead of interesting gameplay) then I would be happy

slender hamlet
torpid crypt
#

I know I'm surely gonna have a fun time when shaman drops regardless of what I do, but it's just something I'm accepting

opal oracle
#

If there's a version of fragile that introduced interesting consequences upon death, that's fine, but -5 is definitely not interactive

eager mango
torpid crypt
#

block button is a nice button. 🙂

#

but anyways, I'm off topic

opal oracle
#

Are there pins for threads, there are right

crude ingot
#

Yes

#

Oh moderators

opal oracle
#

(is there a fast way of scrolling to the top of a thread? I don't know of one)

visual kelp
#

kinda hmm how OP cannot pin messages

eager mango
torpid crypt
crude ingot
visual kelp
#

maybe in the permissions of the feedback channel itself can you enable OP to pin stuff?

sour flower
#

Fragile is worse than haunted imo in the way it isnt a delve mod

meager basin
#

max point dungeon advancements and that one pass mission require fragile

#

so yeah removing it would accomplish something

#

the point of this feedback post/poll was literally to rank delve modifiers in terms of enjoyment/design so I’m not sure why you would even bring up “just don’t pick it”

#

that literally isn’t the point of this lol

#

“just don’t pick haunted or transcendent or infernal”

sour flower
#

Reason I immensely dislike fragile is that it doesn't even do what a delve mod is supposed to do

fickle glade
#

Ok. A non-fragile/haunted statement. It’s weird that Infernal and Arcanic behave differently.

First of all, Infernal affects fire and environmental damage, whereas Arcanic only affects ability damage. Second, infernal damage scales with the number of points, while (at least according to the wiki) Arcanic seems to be a flat +50% ability damage

#

I mean they are supposed to be different mods, but the distinction seems a bit inconsistent

sour flower
#

people just see infernal as worse arcanic

#

does arcanic still have bonus ability dmg flat out across all levels?

fickle glade
#

Apparently yes

#

Which I guess disincentivizes taking a couple of points of Arcanic

barren kindle
#

Archanic dfoesn't say that it has an increase in magic damage.

fickle glade
#

The wiki does.

#

Is it wrong?

barren kindle
#

Unless the stats in the menu are wrong, Archanic doesn't increase magic damage.

abstract flicker
#

It definitely did in the past, whether it still does I'm not sure. I always assumed it did still

barren kindle
#

Wiki has double environmental damage from infernal, has Echoes on here, its pretty outdated.

fickle glade
#

So Arcanic scales nothing?

#

(Other than obviously the % of Arcanic mobs)

#

While Infernal also scales fire damage?

abstract flicker
#

I do remember that the damage was consistent no matter what level of arcanic you had

fickle glade
#

I don’t take either of my own will because both target assassin while invisible

#

So I wouldn’t know

abstract flicker
#

Big reason why that if Arcanic was ever picked I'd rather go all in than none (although I don't want it picked often because berserker moment)

barren kindle
#

Archanic abilities deal 50% more damage than other abilities, but that is all.

#

"Arcanic: Removed ability damage multiplier, Arcanic abilities' damage increased by 50%, fixed two of the abilities (Magic Arrow, Tracking Projectile) not triggering and Rejuvenation being 3 times too common" - Auguest 26th 2021 changelog.

fickle glade
#

Wow

#

Crazy how it’s survived on there for so long

abstract flicker
#

Yeah so it's just a consistent +50%

crude ingot
#

Hmm I'll fix the page

opal oracle
#

is it

abstract flicker
#

Whether or not it applies to only Arcanic abilities or all abilities I do not know

#

And I also don't know if that's still accurate to how it is today

opal oracle
#

I read that as the 50% to everything was removed (removed multiplier), and arcanic damage was scaled accordingly

crude ingot
#

^

eager mango
#

Well it's not 50% to abilities, it's the base damage that was scaled

abstract flicker
#

Oh, yeah

barren kindle
#

Yeah, the changelog i just posted only states that the archanic abilities are stronger, not all abiities.

fickle glade
#

Doesn’t that mean that infernal still scales faster? Because it scales twice (once for %infernal mobs and once for fire damage)

abstract flicker
#

English is hard

sour flower
#

what if theres a cdr mod

abstract flicker
#

but yeah it is technically still 50% more damage but it's the base damage of the abilities + doesn't affect other abilities, ig

eager mango
opal oracle
fickle glade
barren kindle
#

There is nothing in the changelogs, unless Infernal was misspelled, about the Infernal nerf as far as i can tell.

fickle glade
sour flower
#

monster cast faster

eager mango
sour flower
#

but tbh I do agree that there need to be some mods that benefit melee players more

fickle glade
#

Oh. Still better than making you slower

sour flower
#

vengeful is sort of like this but would love to see more interesting designs

barren kindle
#

Enemies have a 10% chance per level to be immune to non-melee damage.

eager mango
#

"You deal more damage the closer you are to the enemy" darkkermit

sour flower
eager mango
#

Or, well, other way around

barren kindle
#

but it does benefit melee players

fickle glade
#

How do you make a mod that’s advantageous for melee without a boring pure stat decrease for ranged damage

barren kindle
#

which is what you asked for

sour flower
#

bloodthirsty in theory does this

#

but since melee in minecraft is horrible in general

barren kindle
eager mango
#

No bloodthirsty is horrible for melee too

sour flower
#

it messes up with melee even more

#

if you want to harm proj-casters more you should generally focusing on nullifying some of their bigger advantages

fickle glade
#

Not great

barren kindle
#

but it isnt, i followed your conditions.

eager mango
sour flower
#

I think the problem is just stuff like mage doesnt have disadvantage

fickle glade
#

Mobs spawn on you instead of by the spawner

raw drum
#

Reintroduce chival proj immunity but as its own modifier 😃

opal oracle
#

make melee kills not trigger vengeful thonk

fickle glade
fickle glade
opal oracle
#

vengeful messes with my kill speeds as rogue

sour flower
#

alch at least have low DPS, warlock need to cope with ability cooldown, but mage is basically no downsides

fickle glade
#

Scout crying

opal oracle
#

it's not bad, but it's not great (but yeah removing vengeful ramp makes it way less threatening as a mod overall)

sour flower
#

there are enough scout trollers so

opal oracle
#

ngl elementalist especially r2 can only put out so much in a given time frame

fickle glade
opal oracle
#

it can burst but the gas tank only holds so much, it can be hard limited by cds as well

sour flower
#

stuff like colossal and spectral are good enough alch counters

#

and dreadful/colossal are good enough warlock counter

#

but for mage

fickle glade
#

Mage already gets countered by overconfidence

raw drum
#

When will they make specter of silence actually silence you

low gust
#

GOD arcanic old scaling was horrific

#

remember being instapopped by any ability?

opal oracle
#

maybe a mob ability that will begin a telegraph, then execute effect, but is auto canceled if you melee it/get within melee range

fickle glade
#

I was going to say the same thing

#

Lol

opal oracle
#

me when

image.png
low gust
#

unironically should just be base arcanic

#

cancel an ad's randomly gifted ability if you melee it

#

I fuckin love trading against ranged enemies

fickle glade
#

It doesn’t make it trivial

opal oracle
#

if you're in a group fight and a channeler mob is threatening someone else, you still have to approach it to cause it to stop

fickle glade
#

Maybe specifically needs a melee crit

opal oracle
#

maybe make it reaggro on you? idk, might be more of something a tank would want but not every melee is tank

sour flower
#

ngl making arcanic stoppable by melee is a good idea

#

also just rework inferno

#

literally just arcanic 2

#

plus burning harder but who cares about that

fickle glade
#

Ngl it would be cool to see more delve mod interaction
Like infernal making twisteds walk on magma blocks or smth

#

Pern mobs have a chance to leave behind fire when breaking blocks

sour flower
#

Honestly my take on delve mods will be like:
Remove: Haunted, Fragile
Major Rework: Inferno, Assassin, Unyielding, Transcendent
Rework: Arcanic, Riftborn

meager basin
raw drum
#

Twisted Shadow Transcendental Missile...

sour flower
#

Honestly don't understand the problem with chorno

fickle glade
sour flower
#

its simple and gets the point across

meager basin
#

yeah but its annoying to play against

#

!

sour flower
#

imo its one of the best designed rotating

meager basin
#

most delve mods are simple

#

doesnt mean theyre particularly well designed

sour flower
#

chorno is ok tbh

#

you just need good clearing power

#

its definitely a lose more mod though

fickle glade
#

People probably (somewhat justifiably) think a pure stat increase is lackluster

raw drum
#

Chrono is sorta lame and depending on the dungeon its quite terrifying

low gust
#

teal chrono is fucking hilarious

raw drum
#

White Ex 😫

low gust
#

fucked up but hilarious

sour flower
#

I would say its different from a stat increase

low gust
#

those hyper skele spawners

sour flower
#

white challenge is just brutal

fickle glade
sour flower
#

the amount of spectral is actually scary

eager mango
#

It's basically 2x mobs with a caveat

sour flower
#

much more different imo

eager mango
#

I don't really see it

fickle glade
#

“Spawners spawn twice as fast”

#

It doesn’t get much simpler than that

eager mango
#

Legionary and Chrono are almost the same modifier to me

low gust
#

nah no way

fickle glade
#

Chrono punishes aoe more

#

A lot more

low gust
#

legionary actually frontloads the mob spam, chrono just punishes slow play with it

eager mango
#

Chrono at least doesn't include elites

barren kindle
#

Delve mods based on aggro make no sense because solo.

eager mango
#

Guess it's better for a caster to have mob spam in the same moment yeah

crude ingot
#

Legion feels fine because you just have more mobs to demolish

#

Chrono makes you feel really bad when all the spawners start spawning their second waves

jade blade
#

You can demolish all the mobs in a fraction of a second as an AOE class but you are capped by attack speed and potentially need to reposition in between mobs to avoid getting hit

meager basin
#

legion >>> chrono

fickle glade
sour flower
#

I think it punish glassy classes more

#

since you cant rush for spawners

fickle glade
#

not an unplayably terrible mod though

frosty plover
#

i think it would be cool if some of the delve modifiers were like

#

more severe

#

but gave the players direct buffs to compensate

#

so like arcanic would increase everyone’s ability damage

#

players and monsters

#

infernal adds extra inferno to your fire

sly bridge
#

Delve mods that apply buffs for the tradeoff of being harder would be neat

#

Though I guess they sort of already do by most mobs dropping unique potions now?

#

But that's like, an outside buff

frosty plover
#

well it would incentivize people somewhat to play with goofier delve mods

#

like say there was a passive aptitude effect for players with transcendent

#

or kbr with colossal

#

10kbr

#

embrace the craziness

#

though that would probably make challenge delves extremely goofy

#

pull up to challenge cyan and 1 tap everything with your huge amounts of extra inferno levels

#

destiny 2 has modifiers that have dual aspects which usually come in the form of a positive and negative side

#

ie

#

increased regen when sprinting

#

decreased regen when standing still

#

stuff like that

sly bridge
#

Vengeful - Damage and healing when one of your friends dies. If alone, slightly increased healing.
Arcanic - Increased ability damage
Infernal - Mobs also take increased environmental and fire damage
Transcendent - Passive Aptitude III
Spectral - Passive Adaptability Ethereal II
Dreadful - Increased damage vs. Elites (but not Dreads)
Colossal - +4 Knockback Resistance
Chivalrous - +15% Speed
Bloodthirsty - 8% Chance to regenerate 10% of your health on kill
Pernicious - Haste I
Legionary - Deal increased damage while below 50% health
Carapace - Breaking carapace shields now briefly increases your damage
Entropy - Every 6 minutes, gain a random buff for 1 minute
Twisted - +20% max health

frosty plover
#

the higher you go

#

would be cool

#

“hmmm i don’t want to fight transcendent 5 but aptitude 3 would be awesome”

sly bridge
#

I mean it could be for having 5+ points

#

So you go all in for the buff

frosty plover
#

true

#

omw to run pernicious to run goofy ass slow weapons

#

probably

sly bridge
#

It is interesting how rotating mods vary so much but also give you a passive buff

#

Like Astral is way less noticeable than Unyielding or Assassins and also way more pleasant to interact with

fringe hemlock
#

Unyeilding and Assassins are quite okay for rotatkng, maybe a bit too easy
Astral is pog
Voidgate is slightly annoying because it's hp is a lot even with max boosted bmb + 3 ronde attack still dont kill it
And haunted can just camp you in the ladder and push you out and there's a hole in a groud so you falls straight to your demise

#

They shoild make haunted slightly slower when near the player in 7 block radius by like 40%

#

And make the heartbeat spund effect noticable

#

Or... yes there is still another problem with haunted, it can hit like a normal mob with a true 33% dmg. Since i frames last 0.5s means that you can die on atound 1.5-2s instantly just by accodentally running into a haunted when the other directions also have hordes of mobs, which is a death.
I feel like haunted on it's own can be cool but if you make it attack has a longer cooldown (maybe our i frames on haunted is slightly longer like 1s or 2s) it will be great.
Overall i just think that haunted itself is just a good modifier for low point delves but againts a larger amount of delve points, it falls splattered on the ground like fragile

inner wadi
#

just realized i missed the poll

visual kelp
#

it was supposed to stay open until last night but it closed a whole day early unfortunately

#

however the only consistent changes for every vote was Dreadful getting further ahead of S tier

frosty plover
#

my only issue with dreadful is the mob collision on dreadling spawns

#

mojang 🖕

strange wedge
#

Spiders on monu also love reaching around shields

visual kelp
#

HOG RIDAAAAA

paper merlin
#

if you're on a block and they climb the wall but get stuck below said block yet still have a slight hole or empty side they can see you through, they can hit you in many positions

#

you need to either block it off or be perfectly centered on the block

#

(this is the case with both spiders and cave spiders btw)

#

yes, they can hit you essentially through a block

low gust
#

you can also walk past them if they are jumping and they can't hurt you until they land on the floor

quartz rover
paper merlin
elder dome
#

The spider hitbox is not a monumenta thing thats vanilla ai problems

paper merlin
#

exactly

glad sparrow
paper merlin
#

considering its happened to me, no they havent

quartz rover
paper merlin
#

really? i've heard how it doesnt actually negate aggro or anything but rather just makes it so enemies wont hit you despite aggroing

#

then again you hop between classes like a professional frogger player so

sly bridge
#

Stealth has worked fine for me in my experience

#

You can go up and hug a mob and they'll be completely clueless

fickle glade
#

Stealth doesn’t work for some mobs (I guess due to differences in how they attack?) for example, collisions with slimes and magma cubes continue to deal damage.

Stealth also doesn’t prevent a creeper that has started priming from exploding (like you would expect).

Stealth also feels inconsistent on abilities. Either

  1. Mobs stop casting abilities
  2. Mobs continue casting abilities in progress but don’t start new ones.
  3. Mobs continue to cast abilities and ignore stealth

Tracking abilities (like Silver Bolt and Magic Missile) also continue to follow the player.

Silver Construct also completely ignores stealth and attacks even if you are in stealth

fickle glade
#

go upvote #bug-reports message btw

sly bridge
#

I think the stealth bug with creepers is meant to circumvent blade dance unintentionally being given stealth? At the very least it works for blade dance instead of you blade dancing, the creeper slowly defusing, and then suddenly exploding and killing you the moment blade dance finishes.

I've never encountered the issue with Silver Construct though. Every time he's been aggroed onto me and I've entered stealth, he's either gone back to neutral status or re-aggroed onto a nearby teammate.

fickle glade
#

the stealth bug with creepers is meant to circumvent blade dance unintentionally being given stealth
Why can't they just be implemented differently?

Silver construct definitely ignores stealth if you are the only person alive. I'm not sure otherwise

midnight sun
#

there aggro gets reset by stealth but if you're the only person alive they'll still target you

#

same goes for every godspore mob, hoglins and twisted companion

barren kindle
low gust
#

Stunned creepers are on God more intimidating than unstunned creepers

frosty plover
#

that’s why i took off shield bash

#

when i simply want to block a creeper blast for a split second

#

i have to wait it out as well

#

which might leave me more open to shield breaks

#

not good

#

cumbersome!

low gust
#

nots ure if I can do at this point
I just hit the max capacity for forum chall drinking challenge and now its impozsible

#

wait this isn't lfg

fringe hemlock
#

Top 3 reasons why i play swordsage

  1. Why stealth when you can blade dance
  2. Ronde is free damage buff and aoe while assassin dont have that much aoe
  3. I kill mob fast enough so coup isnt that worth it

I guess assassin has and adventage of actual boss dps but it falls flat on normal clear and swordsage fits that much better

sly bridge
#

I mean, that's what their roles are

#

Swordsage grants more AoE options so it's better at solo play and clearing, while it can barely hold a torch to the insane amount of single-target DPS Assassin can churn out

#

Assassin also has the options for managing aggro of its targets, while Swordsage can only blade dance to try to get away only to have the giant scary mob that was chasing it down continue to do so

#

Coup being an effective enemy health down though is kinda...eh

#

I mean maybe on tougher opponents it makes a difference but I really don't see it changing effective hits to kill that much

low gust
#

assassin takes more thinking too which makes it way harder for me to play it lmao

sly bridge
#

Assassin's actual assassination potential is insane

#

It just has far more niche uses ingame due to the mass amounts of mobs that often spawn than Swordsage does

#

Since more often than not, clearing out a horde of mobs is 95% of the content

#

But that's why yellow tesseracts and mechanical armouries exist I guess

midnight sun
#

if you play it right assassin still has really fast clears ( and even faster in something like sskt clear )

sly bridge
#

SSKT Assassin pwns enemies

low gust
#

unironically might consider

#

just because r3 melee dmg breakpoints are annoying asf

fickle glade
#

Coup being an effective enemy health down though is kinda...eh
Allegedly Coup should kill enemies with totems before they activate? I’m not sure how the interaction works because it seems to sometimes kill them and sometimes not

But given the relative lack of enemies with totems in most content, effectively it’s just a 10% damage boost or whatever which is… not bad actually.

assassin takes more thinking too which makes it way harder for me to play it lmao
For me it’s the exact opposite: Swordsage takes more thinking to play. Assassin only really has to manage 2 abilities, and functionally they are almost identical, Bodkin Blitz and Advancing Shadows. Use Cloak and Dagger if you need an out from a really bad situation or if you see a tanky elite.

On the other hand Windwalk, Blade Dance, and Advancing Shadows all behave pretty differently and need to be used in different situations.

But I probably could learn sage if I tried.

However, the real reason I play assassin is because I have ping/skill issue, so it’s impossible for me to hit mobs without trading, and I often miss if they are running around chasing me.
Stealth solves that problem.

sly bridge
#

I mean Coup is around a 10% damage boost but it really depends on the health of the mob; you get an effective greater damage boost against healthier targets and a damage down against weaker ones.

frosty plover
#

20% if you use silver codex 🤓

#

or 20% on elites

midnight sun
#

its 15% on normal mobs and 25% if you use silver codex...

cunning coyote
#

People having high ping of skill change

frosty plover
frosty plover
#

sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt

#

ive gotten a better look at it now that i have the cosmetic

#

the star will fall and the enemy will still be there

#

i think its not supposed to bypass on totems

midnight sun
frosty plover
#

is it

#

i am pretty sure its 10%

opal oracle
#

#change-logs message

frosty plover
#

ah ok