#Alchemist

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

sweet shell
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Me, a micro masochist enjoying every second of alch with taboo, gruesome and aberration

worthy iron
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my complaint is just there isn't enough alch player on balance team

fierce wasp
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There does seem to be big differing opinions on what is fine, watching the 40 min silvic quarry did not seem fine

coral pecan
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Would you mind sharing a preview?

worthy iron
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bag alch does not need a nerf

coral pecan
worthy iron
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infact it needs buff in r1 and r2

barren phoenix
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i do not have anything recorded nor am sure if i would be allowed to, but bebu could share their experience since they helped me test for a while

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i think that would be allowed

sweet shell
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Hi

coral pecan
fierce wasp
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I don't think Icy did anything particularly wrong when actively clearing, I thought taking arcanic was a pretty bad choice but there's no good delve mods

coral pecan
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like the EU node or something

barren phoenix
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i did test with 25pt tho

true tree
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Was apoth tested or just harb?

barren phoenix
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i tested apoth with kio's build and bebu tested harb

sweet shell
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Its been pretty fine, tho I haven't tested r1 and r2 harb

barren phoenix
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we did teal for r2 bebu

coral pecan
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I know I have really strong opinions on balance when it comes down to Alch or Reaper but

sweet shell
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Well yeah but as in I didnt test apoth on r2

worthy iron
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I'm not trying to be rude but its like people making decisions doesn't even spend time to understand how alch functions before doing changes on it

lusty sinew
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the alch rework away from pot on kill was built by an alch main, the further tweaks the same, and the plans for this one initially were i believe, and then bike joined in and did the implementation side of things

coral pecan
lusty sinew
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(gemini)

coral pecan
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Gemini is the same person or someone else?

barren phoenix
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i wasn't actually playing when pot on kill was a thing but i feel like that could be an interesting thing to explore again maybe

worthy iron
barren phoenix
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for now im just tweaking numbers and reporting to people on balance

worthy iron
coral pecan
lusty sinew
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gemini being the first rework away from pot on kill, then the couple followup changes, and then this one i think went by them and then bike implemented/tested

zealous plover
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I personally liked old alch system of killing mobs regen'd pots. Passive regen imo just seems to increase brain dead-ness. idk

sweet shell
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In my experience with harb on r2 and r3 its really strong, I don't think its a big surprise since harb was borderline fine on some instances in current patch, and so with buffs it can even afford to play in ways akin to pre rework

coral pecan
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Gemini's ground rework was solid, numbers were off

barren phoenix
coral pecan
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Bezoar did as well

worthy iron
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pot regen on kill

fierce wasp
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More "in the field" testings like being able to clear a poi or dungeon relative to other classes gives the impression that alchemist needed more time before the release. Yes alch has the best aoe delivery in the game, but it also needs to meet some minimums that don't encourage using another weapon because your alch bag is so impotent

sweet shell
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But I dont think people care that much about harb being fine since it wasn't the really nigh unplayable spec

fierce wasp
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Unless the skills reflect supporting this

lusty sinew
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yea, just addressing this whole lack of alch mains on the team thing... there aren't many, i fled with the inferno nerf, but don't think any alch reworks have not had alch mains involved in the process

worthy iron
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pot regen methods are fine in current patch, pot consumption however is completely botched

coral pecan
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I generally would suggest for a class like Alch to involve the community more

worthy iron
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in general balance team talk with community a lot less since monarch left

coral pecan
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Even though some opinions are scuffed, the class has a lot more variety

worthy iron
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it feels like

barren phoenix
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monarch did have a lot of time on his hands, I try to pop in here and there

coral pecan
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If your Alch build is trash you will struggle on the class more

sweet shell
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Apoth got a new thing with the buffs so it can deal better with hitting like a wet noodle, and the dmg buff in general made it feel fine

fierce wasp
coral pecan
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I think a lot of people would be satisfied if the class was playable, in the end I would love to see a bigger rework and I'll gladly contribute towards it

sweet shell
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Tho discretion of the fact I dont play apoth and I am not a huge fan of its playstyle post rework either

noble flame
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🫡 monarchwoke

coral pecan
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I trust that the class is going to be solid next week

zealous plover
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Alch on its way to be reworked for the fifth time:

zealous plover
worthy iron
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Its basically my worst fear before rework

noble flame
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yet again i think the groundwork was laid out for something super cool but it missed the mark on launch

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just needed more time in the oven

coral pecan
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The community has worked before on an Alch rework and they'll gladly will pitch out ideas and how the class is played in general

sweet shell
fierce wasp
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The lack of meaningful enhancement changes also stings very badly

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It was a very well talked about issue since R3 release and seeing... Almost nothing change... Hurts

noble flame
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it kind of sucks to see alchemist being turned into what is basically a crowd control class, which is what mage was once supposed to be

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before it became a nuker

worthy iron
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like before this week I want them to rework alch because AA is unhealthy, but I also fear them fucking it up because they dont know what they are doing

fierce wasp
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Brutal is new, I guess, but AA is repurposed old AA and just come out as bland damage band aids

worthy iron
sweet shell
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With the reasonable amount of work it took I am happy with the rework, still wish something else and grandiose could occur but I dont dislike these nerfs and general ideas behind it

barren phoenix
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"don't know what they are doing" is always going to be a subjective opinion

fierce wasp
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Haven't looked at the enhancements, I looked over the pot bags in the post you made but didn't feel like commenting was meaningful with second rework is imminent

sweet shell
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As someone who always felt harbinger was the most broken r3 thing

barren phoenix
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there are reasons for all the tweaks

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be it stupid or good reasons

coral pecan
worthy iron
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I mean if devs pull the number from pre update alch they wont botch damage this hard

zealous plover
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What if something like a beta server was opened where some players could test an upcoming big change to the game to help with issues like what happened this time. ofc with the idea of no leaking it. (and nameless items so people wouldn't get upcoming knowledge)

coral pecan
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I've also questioned before "why not make inferno alch less effective?" but there's also technical limitations y'all have to keep in mind

worthy iron
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its like they are pulling stuff from thin air

coral pecan
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Inferno alch got removed for a reason

zealous plover
fierce wasp
worthy iron
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I don't think dot alch is becoming op in forseeable future even with the damage buff I suggested

barren phoenix
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yeah I pulled all the numbers out of my ass, white bag will have 20 damage next week

coral pecan
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Yeah it was really damn satisfying burning everything into shred

worthy iron
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SE is not a spammable skill

coral pecan
fossil vault
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and they regen every 5 seconds

barren phoenix
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real and true

zealous plover
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genius

fierce wasp
worthy iron
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pot number limit doesnt really mean much...

coral pecan
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mana lance when it does 355 damage, featuring mscr

noble flame
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im surprised that pot count wasnt tied to alch bags

lusty sinew
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we have a system for testers internally, mostly that grew out of the r3 beta testing, but as with everything, beta testing won't find all

worthy iron
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thats why people never use bottled infinity and explosive reagent is reworked cause op

barren phoenix
worthy iron
zealous plover
fierce wasp
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Explosive reagent halving your bag size was real relevant if you didn't have any pot regen

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It would be a significant and meaningful tradeoff in R1

sweet shell
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I think another issue of pot totals is the whole harb vs apoth

worthy iron
sweet shell
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Harb cares awfully low about having 6 5 or even 4 potions, if running taboo that is

fossil vault
worthy iron
sweet shell
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Apoth copes and seethes since it has less pot recharge mid fight

worthy iron
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I dont even use taboo

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base class have a diverse set of pot regen methods

sweet shell
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Trying to make changes without favouring harb a lot is kinda hard

lusty sinew
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beta testers are unfortunately not all that available normally. Some were reached out to directly on this, but normally it takes a dev wrangling beta testers directly to get testing done

noble flame
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yeah i agree, the beta testers were kind of

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a mess

fossil vault
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apoth mains seething

sweet shell
worthy iron
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how?

noble flame
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I mean even the r3 beta testers chosen, half of them leaked shit

sweet shell
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Taboo is kinda... extremely broken

fossil vault
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hi i would like to sign up to test alch

worthy iron
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Taboo is fine

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considering the costs

noble flame
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and yet there were good potential beta testers who were veto'd by a couple people 🫠

barren phoenix
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mich dont you have access to stage already

worthy iron
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SE is fine now that brutal is reworked

sweet shell
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Taboo's pot recharge makes your damage output so superior it is a really strong tradeoff

lusty sinew
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mich already has the beta tester role 😛

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just post future tests in that announcement channel

fossil vault
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i do, this is an open offer to ping me to play apoth 🥺

worthy iron
fierce wasp
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Taboo generally asks you to build differently regarding the skill though, which I appreciate seeing

sweet shell
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Its not that you cant play a smart alch who takes its fights and uses pots efficiently without taboo

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Its that you can literally throw most of that out the window

fossil vault
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but yeah the apoth vs harb gap is quite real, and it takes a lot more intentional building for damage to make apoth as viable

fierce wasp
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Nothing about most alch skills (before charms are considered) makes me consider changing my skill selection

sweet shell
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And press rclick with taboo active without much thought to the economy

worthy iron
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In general

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pot regen matters less if you can 2 pot kill

fierce wasp
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While on warrior I can consider how much I'm allocating to frenzy, to shield skills

zealous plover
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(genius)

sweet shell
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True, at the end of the day taboo wasnt that relevant when alch was strong last patch

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Unless you pressed w key like a maniac rushing everything

worthy iron
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#gameplay-builds-archive message

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what I run before patch, for reference

coral pecan
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Is this live on Stage? @barren phoenix

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The alch changes?

barren phoenix
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it should be

coral pecan
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I should have access to stage?

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Isn't that the beta testing server?

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Or something

proud nexus
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Yes

lusty sinew
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talk internally please

sweet shell
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🌠

worthy iron
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really feeling like people outside tm should be consulted more, you can prob ask kio and eternal about some stuff

coral pecan
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Will do

fierce wasp
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I'd maybe turn down alch advice from myself, perhaps. I've drastically reduced my alch gameplay in the past few months, mostly because I've found it very boring to play. In R2 damage nerfs hurt but it was playable, and I wouldn't mind that, but R3 effectively changed nothing about my decision making or skill/gear selection and I lost interest

zealous plover
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what do you play now

fierce wasp
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So I don't have much fresh experience with the class, especially post rework where the state of the class is... Poor.

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Assassin in R2 is mostly the only thing I play because it feels very smooth and I can't play it in R3

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Cleric, mage, warrior, swordsage in R3

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Depending on what i feel like doing on any given day

worthy iron
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I mainly play the casters classes

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specifically harb and tenebrist

fierce wasp
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So in that regard, I could consider myself a reasonable judge of class comparison clear strength

worthy iron
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so I would say I know these two well

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I also play both mage specs a bit but wont say Im too expert on the issue

fierce wasp
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I don't really play scout much anymore, though I consider myself proficient in it (I do play steel in EDD, and while it is a different experience it is still primarily projectile focused gameplay)

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(and I might be a decent player if my runs have anything to show for it :))

worthy iron
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I still have like 5 alch yellow tess

ancient warren
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I added a trigger to throw a gruesome potion (or brutal if gruesome mode is enabled) for next week. That turns it into an active skill 😉

heavy brook
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that sounds very nice

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I want to bind swapping them to left click, but sometimes it double activates and I only wanted to throw 1 gruesome pot

coral pecan
sterile wolf
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^ this has imo been the core identity of alch ever since the alch bag update
Right now the class is so heavily designed around skills (aka pretty much just AA) and it loses its identity

coral pecan
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Actually the changes that I've seen are rlly good QoLs

ancient warren
noble flame
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i always peruse the bug and suggestion reports

chilly tiger
fierce wasp
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Give taboo even more damage so people have to pick harb to have cool damage thonk

chilly tiger
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Taboo and Warding remedy are probably equal levels of OP tbh, just in opposite directions

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Sadly apoth's two other skills are wet noodles and serve no function other than to do stuff in bosses

late canyon
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just run bis magic harb with toxic steroid and youll be hitting as hard as 1 tstep in no time

worthy iron
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not enough skill makes alch super boring

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can some dev dm me so we can have a more in-depth discussion on the state of alchemist

lusty sinew
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in the end even running bis magic doesn't really resolve things, as that is a lot of concessions to get there

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but there's already plans and testing, so things will get tweaks with next week

foggy heart
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bis magic in r3 with steroid was fun

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Until i realised theres no difference between having and not having taboo
Because i 2 tap everything either way

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Didn't tried it post rework tho, Waiting for actual alchemist update before i return

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Don't get me wrong mage is cool
But i want my alch back ):

fierce wasp
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I'd almost want to see a sort of warlock treatment (more sanguine treatment) where skills additionally have a passive that augment your potions, without being the only reason to pick the potion

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Unlike warlock you don't have the heavy incentive to blanket pick every skill to maximize amp hex, and you can just choose what debuffs you work with and question if X skills debuff makes it worth it or mot

midnight hemlock
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Level 1s being solid skills on their own with level 2s augmenting a base potion would be interesting. Could either go master of skills and pick a bunch of solid level 1s or get some good skills and a good combo of potion augments on level 2s

fierce wasp
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If alch is intended to be severely neutered from where it once was, I wouldn't mind seeing purple Haze make a comeback

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But instead of just spreading the haze, if it spread all debuffs that'd be pretty freaking cool

chilly tiger
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I do think the most removable ability should be Odor, since it is really picked because the pot regen is mandatory but it's basically just a passive ability that is necessary for the class to function

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so no matter what alch is basically always down 2 skill points

fierce wasp
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Since if there were debuffs on everything I think it'd be excessive for 8 different debuffs (even if every skill doesn't need a debuff)

chilly tiger
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I think there's just like 1 skill that should be genuinely looked at to see if replacements/changes to them make sense (Odor is the blandest ability ever conceived and yet also extremely required for alch to function)

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everything else is honestly a perfectly fine standalone ability

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I think every single alch ability has a lot of merit on its own as-is

worthy iron
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irrreplaceable*

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at least on harb

chilly tiger
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Taboo my beloathed

worthy iron
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I dont use taboo

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if you have good damage pot regen is less important

vale stag
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I’d like to address one point to the 40min silvic video: the fact that it is not the perfect setup.
About 40% of the time I did not utilize the brutal charms I brought, did not actively proc esoteric, I wasn’t using the skills correctly.
But that is what makes it a good showcase. Not everyone will have the optimized end game gear, and uses skills correctly, and rn it feels kind of bad if you are not following the meta.
Really have to gather all the small buffs here and there to do damage.

fierce wasp
jaunty thicket
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should i give up

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or should i just keep chasing pavement

coral pecan
merry torrent
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:clueless:

chilly tiger
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Literally alch just needs to have okay-ish damage and it'd be a fun and good class again

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No need for debuff shenanigans or stuff, that's warlock's gimmick after all

coral pecan
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Warlock has a bunch of level skills that have enough variation between level 1 and lv 2

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It feels like lv2s are more mandatory than lv 1 for alch

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featuring oodr

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who runs odor for the damage boost?

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It's not about a big change, it's about restructuring and shifting power properly where it doesn't feel like 8 of 10 skill points are mandatory pickups

chilly tiger
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Tktom's message just seems to imply that the level 2 of each ability does something completely different than the actual ability and involves adding debuffs or changes to the base potion

coral pecan
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I think that was more set as an example

chilly tiger
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I do think reconsidering some of the numbers between level 1 and 2 abilities makes sense but

coral pecan
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In that lv 2 either provides something new or doesn't

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from my conversations the emphasis was more on more variety between alch builds

coral pecan
chilly tiger
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Alch does have relatively good variety in builds although that variety doesn't really express itself as level 1 skills taken ever

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I think only gruesome doubles in strength, the rest are a smaller multiplier, but I do get what you mean

coral pecan
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The amount of expression is barebones

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I think it needs to be a lot more different

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than what it is right now numbers wise

chilly tiger
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Alch's main problem is lack of damage and sadly the only abilities that give damage are level 2 abilities

coral pecan
fierce wasp
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It doesn't hurt to address side problems (like lackluster enhancements)

coral pecan
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And how Alch is an explosive class in that with enough amps your pots to kill significantly reduces

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because you have a class with high amount of tools within its kit

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It's the same issue Reaper struggles with

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On how it's a dangerous class to buff due to its high skill ceiling because of how versatile it is

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Give a class like Alch enough ways to output damage and you end up with the state it has been

fierce wasp
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Thinking on this, wondering if others have any input:
A rebalance on how alch potions deal damage. These new potions would have higher base stats (even approaching pre rework levels), but the damage any singular pot deals is split evenly among all mobs affected by the potion. AA applies the full potion damage to all mobs hit.

This change makes a meaningful difference between AA and non AA style attacking by adding more value to AA as an anti crowd measure, adds more power to alch versus single targets while not allowing it to steamroll crowds, can shift combat interactions with crowds to "do I have AA and do I blast them here" or "I'm gonna brutal DOT them down"

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By slowing down group encounters to the pacing of AA usage, debuffs like paralyze from gruesome and brutal dot get a chance to shine

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While not being the only way to deal with 1 (one) melee specter

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I'm sure there's downsides to this too

chilly tiger
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I think monumenta mobs are rarely spawned one at a time and that alchemist's kit kind of synergizes around big aoe clear at once (encouraged to run legion because bezoar is great sustain), and this runs back on the same issue that we currently have where AA is the only way to play alch like alch used to be played

fierce wasp
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Is "autoscaling" something that will feel good? Will it feels fucky to know damage per mob per pot will feel inconsistent? (Perhaps you rely on brutal dot times or AA to remedy this instead of brute forcing potions)

chilly tiger
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I think treating base potions as tools for debuffing mobs and nothing else is pretty lame, like it works for support alch but playing a support class alone feels pretty shitty if it has no tools to deal with mobs

fierce wasp
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In theory time to kill would decrease from a single mob as the group size increases, up to a minimum TTK speed where either brutal dot becomes the upper end or AA shots do

chilly tiger
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Seems like a change like that would make alch pretty bad at clearing basic mobs and also pretty bad at defeating elites

fierce wasp
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If you 1v1 an elite you have some strong damage, since there's only one mob and your undiluted damage would be quite decent

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Well I say strong because I'm harbinger biased

chilly tiger
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Elites rarely spawn alone though, and even pre-nerf alch had issues fighting a couple elites (or maybe again, apoth issue)

fierce wasp
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You wouldn't have to burn so many resources (like you do now) against a single mob, and make resource expenditures against groups

fierce wasp
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This seems to be a legionary exclusive issue, and I rarely took legionary. Elites are less alone in R3 than before (coven super elite moment), but I can think of enough elite encounters in R2 dungeons where I can fight it more or less isolated

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And even if there is one or two mobs with it, that's another gameplay decision that you could burn resources up front to kill them quickly and focus your damage

chilly tiger
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I guess my question is, what problem does this change solve? What is wrong with how alch currently works that would necessitate a change like this

fierce wasp
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Allowing alch to have satisfactory single target damage currently means it would annihilate groups- this change is intended to allow for 1-2 mobs to be killed without significant expenditures of AA, UA, or many extra pots, while not allowing it to steamroll huge groups with the same level of damage

chilly tiger
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Alch's aoe already has been somewhat gutted, even assuming significant damage buffs, and being able to clear mobs efficiently has always been alchemist's shtick, in return for having inarguably the worst sustained or burst dps against single targets

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I don't think that's a terrible niche to have, even if it requires a different playstyle

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To deal with harder targets

fierce wasp
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I'm mostly worried that the level of "worst sustained dps against single targets" and "clearing mobs efficiently" will not be well enjoyed by the playerbase- current alch numbers were blasted into the ground and it was considered "fine" in testing, and I'm concerned that it will be left in a very awkward spot where the clear power isn't quite enough in a group

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Because with damage at a constant across number of targets, that worst sustained dps and efficient mob clear must be the same number (per potion)

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But I'm not solid on this scaling damage stance, it's just popped in my head a few minutes ago, and I lack the viewpoints of apoths (or other people)

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It might also alleviate the issue of constantly pushing extreme damage on alch sets- you would ideally not need so much damage to have a reasonable kill time on a single mob, and the negative scaling on a group means damage would only go so far to secure kill times, though I do think there will be some people who will want to brute force their damage to kill groups quickly anyway (but glassier build players exist for any class)

chilly tiger
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The tragedy of every alch already running glass cannon to squeeze out any iota of damage they can

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To me, I think pre-nerf alch was actually quite fine in terms of power, the only genuinely problematic skill was old AA, allowing you to put a ton of damage out at any range without any personal risk to yourself

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Everything else was certainly strong but by no means unusually powerful compared to what every single other class could do

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It had significant weaknesses but also great strengths, and a solid niche for people who wanted to play it

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R1 alch still plays somewhat like old alch, it's the only way to have fun as alch anymore imo, so I think kinda just looking at it and balancing the rest of alchemist to be more like it is the best way to go

vestal laurel
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My favorite part about r1 alch is that it took six potions to kill a single delve mob 👍

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Magic damage is a necessity lol

chilly tiger
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R3 takes like 20 to kill 1 delve mob

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I am curious about what testing was actually done for new alch - I know it was done in an 18 pt brown but I wonder what kind of experience it was, because I can maybe see a world where it worked somewhat well, albeit slowly, running two taboo harbs, but it seems like something was being done that isn't being done right now with the rest of the alch player base to imply that the level of nerfed alch was good enough to be picked over any other class

coral pecan
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If you killed 3 mobs with your waves of pots you'd break even and a little bit higher

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Generally you wanted 3 pot kills

fierce wasp
chilly tiger
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Yeah I'm just confused on how that testing went at all

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Seems like it'd be a generally unpleasant experience all-around

worthy iron
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save for AA

coral pecan
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It was

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An advanced class with that much options being incredibly easy to play for all levels of play due to its high damage

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Good players abused it 10x harder

worthy iron
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AA is the only issue with it imo

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I can clear with the same speed as tenebrist

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plus alch pot radius get nerfed a bit as far as I remember

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and bag alch is underpowered in r1 and r2

vestal laurel
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I played non AA alch and the class felt great
A bit slow, and did very little damage as apoth, but my survivability was high to compensate

chilly tiger
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It got its damage nerfed down once before this most recent patch

worthy iron
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if you want tank you can go play tenebrist

vestal laurel
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Now post update I can't damage anything more than a basic non delve poi mob

worthy iron
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I think pre-this week alch is the best state (save for AA)

chilly tiger
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It got like a 25% damage nerf in R2/R3 a bit ago in november and it was in a pretty good place imo

worthy iron
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agree

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thoughts on the number in my doc?

chilly tiger
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Like it's been nerfed quite a bit already, most of the clips of "OP alch" were before that nerf and used AA

worthy iron
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I'm just afraid the are just gonna buff current by like 25% and call it a day

chilly tiger
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Yeah it'll still be unplayable then

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I think nothing less than doubling pot base damage in R2 and like 2.5x in R3 is needed for it to be worth picking over literally any other class

worthy iron
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agree

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check my doc's number

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imo in a good place

coral pecan
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I think the only issue was the high end damage bullshit and for the rest it was fine imo

worthy iron
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damage is fine imo

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after the nerfs

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have to do with many alchs running glassy sets

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will be much riskier after removal of aa

worthy iron
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man....

heavy brook
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at this point hotfix alch bags to have good damage

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waiting another week to play a class is just... man

fossil vault
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have you tried alch in gameplay yet

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it's perfectly playable now

heavy brook
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I don't have that much time to play monu

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My builds have to function at a fast pace and alch is still incapable of doing this, even scout can do this now

fossil vault
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alch can actually play pretty fast, just not necessarily kill pretty fast

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DOT is cool

heavy brook
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the enemies are still alive, this is an issue that I cannot overlook

fossil vault
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understandable :P

heavy brook
#

most of the time I have teammates, and I can no longer dispatch them immediately on my own unlike other classes

#

I am essentially a weaker Mage in terms of supporting DPS and all I have to make up for it is Iron Tincture

worthy iron
heavy brook
#

adding DoT to a class is a cool concept on paper, but Alchemist has effectively lost its agency and control over situations. I cannot rely on an Alchemist to support me if I am in a rough spot or blitzed by a strong mob

#

I would much rather bring a supporting DPS that can handle situations when they choose, not after their stopwatch has hit 0

#

More on this, Alchemist in a fine tuned environment will only be able to provide that supporting DPS either in a boss/miniboss context or if teammates willingly sacrifice damage thresholds or tune their builds to barely miss thresholds on their own.

fierce wasp
#

Alchemist is at a point where I would consider testing as harbinger

#

seeing around 60 dps with what I would consider pretty highly optimized

sick citrus
#

alchemists when their class is not overpowered

vestal laurel
#

alchemists

ancient warren
#

Until alch gets the same insane single-target DPS that melee classes have it's not overpowered

#

If alch is as good at clearing as melee classes, it is useless. So it must be strictly better than them.

chilly tiger
#

I give this alch update a solid 9/10. If panacea wasn't changed into whatever the hell it is now, i'd probably give it a 5/10, but new panacea gives apoth a golden bullet to demolish one target that they struggle to kill, which is really cool design imo

ancient warren
#

current alch is good again, idk if more buffs should be done or not

#

oh? maybe I should try apoth

chilly tiger
#

I think the only things that need to be buffed are enhancements (they are so stinky) and bag diversity in R3 (no reason to use anything but brown) but they're pretty minor issues

ancient warren
#

scorched earth is so nice though

#

about doubles your DPS

#

with the +100% damage charm

chilly tiger
chilly tiger
#

I think that Scorched earth and panacea kind of fulfill very similar roles on each spec

#

being concentrated damage against targets that alch struggles with

#

and that's cool, it's basically 1 ability that is saved and deployed to help alch with the class's biggest weakness

worthy iron
#

Imma write up a new thread after testing

#

I do think it needs some finishing touches on numbers

chilly tiger
#

Is it as strong of concentrated dps as any other class has? No, absolutely not. But it's something to help the support-focused apoth deal with getting caught out without their team, or an aoe-clear focused harb who runs into an elite or colossi or twisted or dread they'd have a harder time dealing with

heavy brook
#

I was able to get results with some ridiculous damage stacking, but I honestly couldn't encourage myself to finish the last POI that I was testing in.

#

I was doing everything right in terms of execution, but I couldn't stay engaged in gameplay because it took far too long to kill anything and pick up pace

#

A far cry from previous Alchemist in terms of combat pace

chilly tiger
#

Is this in reference to current alch or last-update alch

heavy brook
#

current

chilly tiger
#

interesting

#

I think my statement on current alch is "Probably the worst class in monumenta but it at least plays like an actual class"

heavy brook
#

Like yeah I got results, dreads were killed, crowds vanquished. But the gameplay was so unengaging that I couldn't even finish the POI.

chilly tiger
#

It's still quite flawed but it's not hopeless like pre-update alch was

heavy brook
#

this is at least true

chilly tiger
#

I can live with this version of alch for another month

#

I could not live with the other version of alch for a month

heavy brook
#

I personally will push hard for TM to move the class away from DoT focus and more toward immediate damage. Not for balance, but for enjoyment.

coral pecan
#

The dot is high enough damage where it feels impactful

#

Its definitely a change of how you pace with thr class

heavy brook
#

pre Alchemist was pretty fun as I was basically in control of my damage, current Alch is just throw potion and wait, it somehow felt even less engaging than Infernolock.

coral pecan
heavy brook
#

rework Brutal enhancement to squash that issue immediately and then TM will have loads of freedom with the base pot damages

chilly tiger
#

I think the 3 things I want for alch are:
Better enhancements (Alch has basically the worst enhancements of any class across the board)
Better R3 Pot Diversity (Brown bag is still the only choice)
A look at R2 Alch (I think it.. kinda struggles? Like in R1 the mob design isn't that bad and the pacing of the game is slow so you can work around it with your tools, and it fits the new alch pretty well, and in R3 you have cool charms to "fix" bad abilities or flaws within the class, and tools to slow the game down, but playing R2 alch I feel both too weak and too squishy and too slow for the mobs around me)

coral pecan
heavy brook
#

well the issue is Brutal being a strong DoT

coral pecan
#

I do think that enhancements are laughably mid at best

#

Its literally a 1.35 damage multiplier if you let it tick once

heavy brook
#

More important to just remove the DoT alltogether

coral pecan
#

Especially now that 1 gruesome pot means net positive damage wise

#

Brutal was literally +damage on pots

#

Actually most lame passive in the game

heavy brook
#

can't imagine +damage being less enjoyable than +damage but you get it after waiting a specific time

coral pecan
#

Like my concern when I playtested on stage was more about the different direction the class

coral pecan
#

because Im actively considering when to throw second pot

chilly tiger
#

yeah I agree with jtree, DoT does have a bit of depth and I do really respect it as a playstyle

coral pecan
#

It's always been a part of the class when and how to pot spam

chilly tiger
#

It just isn't really for me (and that's fine, i've gotten r3 alch to work just fine relatively DoT-free)

coral pecan
#

The class has been in a state where it never has been mandatory

#

Because lmao truckloads of damage

chilly tiger
#

I think R2 alch needs another looksie at it since I am still kinda struggling in this 12pt purple when I probably shouldn't be

coral pecan
#

12pts purple is a bit nasty

distant junco
#

purple always a hard rock

chilly tiger
#

Something about R2 being the only region where you're down 2 skill points because iron tincture is kind of integral (in r1 you can honestly just manually dodge everything and in R3 you can specialize your defenses to be a lot more interesting)

coral pecan
#

Fyi my tests were ran with 18pts solos, lightgray/teal and 0 infusions

chilly tiger
#

Solo or duo?

coral pecan
#

Solo

chilly tiger
#

Nice

coral pecan
#

I did duo a bit in both, but I mostly ran solo

#

I felt like 18pts solo would feel not too much of a jump if someone wanted to try a 25pts

chilly tiger
#

I think I'll need to play around with it a bit more but I'll probably try to describe how R2 alch feels weaker than R1 or R3 alch for different reasons

#

after a bit more practice

coral pecan
#

I mainly looked at the HP stat of mobs when looking at the delve modifiers

#

I think it takes a bunch of time to learn

heavy brook
#

Idk I guess the class just isn't for me, I only bring it up because I have genuinely never felt this bored/unengaged in gameplay because of a class's playstyle/performance.

coral pecan
#

I think pre multi bag this class was a snoozefest

heavy brook
#

If the class is this much of a slog for me, perhaps more people share a certain amount of that feeling?

coral pecan
#

I felt like that initially too

heavy brook
#

There can be a middle ground met somewhere

coral pecan
#

Also try building a bit more damage if you can

chilly tiger
#

Actually honestly I think the issue is that R3 alch got its damage buffed by 1.5x and R2 alch only by 1.25x

#

1.25x increase over its previously unplayable state isn't much of a boost

coral pecan
#

7 to 10 is more like 45%

heavy brook
#

R2 Base previously being 17 and R3 Base being 19 doesn't help R2 Alch's balance

chilly tiger
#

oh I meant brown's 7.7 to 12

coral pecan
#

fair

#

I talked about nihilo proof

chilly tiger
#

(because why would you use any bag but brown)

#

oh nihilo proof

#

hmm

coral pecan
#

(hard agree)

chilly tiger
#

yeah maybe I should consider a different bag besides teal

#

but aptitude 😭

coral pecan
#

I think one of the concerns was that r2 alch would feel bad

distant junco
#

Now I reject aleph for my ghast hit and use shifting bag

coral pecan
#

heres the spoiler

#

r2 is literally the hardest region

#

everything kinda gets shit on there

#

So it feeling worse felt like

chilly tiger
#

that's really true

coral pecan
#

"this is just r2"

#

r1 alch felt bonkers ngl

#

but you dont have the tools there compared to r2

#

so its base is ofc gonna feel better

chilly tiger
#

R3 alch is less powercrept than other classes, and R2 alch is probably shit on by R2 more than other classes, but I do agree that it's probably more just issues with the respective regions

coral pecan
#

I specifically requested a light gray for testing

#

Teal was genuinely miserable but thats Teal for me

chilly tiger
#

like I get hit once and all my health is gone (rip fine print nerf)

coral pecan
#

You got like

#

arguably the worst alch situation there LMAO

#

2 ranged units, splitting up, high hp, dread

#

imminent death, Id bail

#

Id experiment with evasion

#

RoD taught me evasion good

barren phoenix
#

Good morning, how goes

distant junco
#

DoT alch is good

chilly tiger
#

idk how to fit evasion in my build given I need every iota of spell damage I can get to even kill a mob

coral pecan
#

Id say 80% seems to be satisfied/happy

coral pecan
#

Transcendence, Veil, Seekers, MWakes, Urn

distant junco
heavy brook
#

But yeah that was my 2 cents, I'm just one guy who didn't enjoy the new Alchemist. I hope for less focus placed on DoT and more focus placed on immediate damage to give control and pacing to the player. If this is what Alchemist needs to become to fit into the current meta then so be it.

#

If the majority enjoy it then that's what is best for the class.

coral pecan
chilly tiger
#

Having played through all of last week as alch without swapping off once, definitely an improvement on what was before but alch is still the worst class in the game

#

but at least it's a functional class now

#

and, even fun, in R3 and R1

coral pecan
#

Definitely one of the more fun ones

#

summoner alch is bonkers

barren phoenix
#

Slime rancher alch

coral pecan
#

yeehaw

chilly tiger
#

Alch really do have the slime friends

#

makes sense

coral pecan
#

I learned that

#

remember the charged effect from charged creepers?

#

apparently its Hearts on the eso

#

RP Dev team will remain the goat

chilly tiger
#

Basically to sum up my thoughts R3 alch is super fun, I actually really like how panacea acts now (seriously what an absurd improvement); the enhancements are still unabashedly mediocre, and there's no reason to use any bag but brown, but overall, those are really small issues. 8/10. I've always loved R1 Alch's more methodical playstyle, and this plays like r1 alch always has, so no issues, 9/10

#

R2 alch though... mmm, a lot of item nerfs and damage nerfs and lack good gear has really really hurt r2 alch

#

better than before but I really feel the weakness of the class. 5/10

coral pecan
#

r2 alch kinda mid but playable

worthy iron
#

Its playable

#

r2 needs a buff yeah

chilly tiger
#

Playable but any other class would be better is my experience

coral pecan
#

Try crystalline blessing from r3

chilly tiger
#

I don't want to have to boon up to play a class 😭

coral pecan
#

Its 4h

worthy iron
#

Imma write another proposal thread

#

alch rn is usable but can have some fine touchs

coral pecan
#

get out of your smelli gamer chair if you dont pot for 4h

barren phoenix
#

I tried using blue and forest bags and those perform well too

worthy iron
#

I still think AA and Esoteric have too much damage

chilly tiger
#

Forest bag has merit, and I can see blue bag working for harb but they still feel strictly outclassed

worthy iron
#

and some damage should be returned to pots

chilly tiger
#

and I want to like pelias keep bag so bad but

#

it simply will not let me

worthy iron
#

I really really dont like the current state of AA

#

even copying pasting from wind bomb feels more fun

#

wind bomb would actually be super funny on alch

#

thinking that way

chilly tiger
barren phoenix
#

Again a pull on aa was proposed and shot down so good luck

worthy iron
worthy iron
#

even 0.5 sec stun can work

#

AA works better as a cc skill due to its larger radius

chilly tiger
#

I personally think new AA is just fine

coral pecan
#

no stuns please

#

tbh

barren phoenix
chilly tiger
#

Yeah that makes a ton of sense

worthy iron
chilly tiger
#

I'm not heartbroken about just using brown bag

#

it's nice, even, to only have to worry about maxing and infusing 1

coral pecan
#

other bags dont feel good to use to solo clear

#

but thats r2 for me

#

I didnt test other bags in r3 r1

#

and in general I need to update my builds

chilly tiger
#

Yeah playing more of it I think it's just R2 that's rubbing me the wrong way

worthy iron
#

Alchemical Artillery:
Cooldown increased to 8s (from 6s). Damage is now 125% of pot damage, radius is now 150%/200%. In addition, level 2 of the skill now also slightly pulls all hit mobs towards the impact point.
Enhancement rework: The skill now leaves a lingering field on impact for 5 seconds, inflicting brutal and gruesome effect on enemies within it every second.

#

rework idea

coral pecan
#

You see on stage I dont have infusion costs suffer

worthy iron
#

if you guys dont like pull maybe some other CC effect can work

chilly tiger
#

R2 feeling pretty shit makes a lot of sense given it got the most significant nerfs compared to pre-nerf because R2 and R3 base damage back before the february update were actually quite similar (R1 was 5/7, R2 14/16, R3 16/18 or something)

#

and now pots scale more linearly instead of the odd doubling of base damage from R1 to R2 that we had before

worthy iron
#

what do you guys will think be a good baseline value?

#

I think 6/13/15 can work

coral pecan
#

Im gonna straight up tell you

#

0.5+ damage

chilly tiger
#

I think honestly the R1 and R3 baselines are fine, just a better ratio between R2 and R3 is needed

coral pecan
#

felt like a blessing

#

So if anything

#

bumping up to those numbers is insanr

static plaza
#

sooooo
Uhhh
Just got home
anybody know if alch has its old damage back

worthy iron
#

whats damage on reverie bag

chilly tiger
#

4.5

barren phoenix
#

no

chilly tiger
#

oh wait 5.5

worthy iron
static plaza
worthy iron
#

AA needs to be funnier

chilly tiger
worthy iron
#

it means standard bag

chilly tiger
#

so like reverie would be 6, forum 13, and brown 15?

worthy iron
#

so 1/15/2.5 would be like brown bag

#

obvious I can make stuff like 0/17/3.5 but that would be outliner

coral pecan
#

Like having gone through the buffs, the balance team quite knows what theyre doing

#

theyre very active changes and shit is actively in consideration

worthy iron
#

Ruin (3 star): Regicide 1, 1.5/17/0.5

#

ok guys what if

empty bolt
#

I really like that bags actually have more enchants to keep them unique, not just dmg increase and sometimes a radius or throw increase

worthy iron
#

I'm not a big fan of aspects on bag

barren phoenix
#

no aspects on bag

static plaza
#

ok i know im not really contributing to the conversation but are maxxed r3 pot bags as good as old alch pots or atleast close?

worthy iron
#

they are either useless or stupidly op

#

by aspect I mean stuff like decay too

barren phoenix
#

decay is fine

chilly tiger
#

Yeah I don't know if I agree with Galactic's numbers, but I do think R2 bags should have a better look-over since their base damage is proportionally much worse than pre-nerf compared to any other region

static plaza
#

decay is fine
its too bad to do anything

worthy iron
#

SKT (3 star): 4/13/4.5

barren phoenix
#

works well in r3 with decay charms

worthy iron
#

what if

barren phoenix
#

decay hybrid alch felt cool to me

worthy iron
barren phoenix
#

git gud

worthy iron
#

Cyan: 1.5/7.5/7

chilly tiger
#

I refuse to let you try and add old AA back in with a stupid bag

worthy iron
#

what if

worthy iron
chilly tiger
#

ok and it's insanely broken and this is why AA was removed

worthy iron
#

its why it have 4 radius

#

its super hard to aim

#

Portal (3 star): Trivium I, 1/13.5/3

#

what if

coral pecan
barren phoenix
#

i dont think more bags will be added for a while, not to strikes especially

chilly tiger
coral pecan
#

What was old AA

#

did I forgor

chilly tiger
#

Bow alch

#

or ball alch

worthy iron
chilly tiger
#

aka the ability that let alch attack anywhere they had line of sight to with 0 risk to themselves

#

(thank god it got removed)

worthy iron
#

honestly the -0.5 block radius on bag really hit hard

#

I think pre rework default radius is like 3?

chilly tiger
#

it was 4

worthy iron
#

damn

barren phoenix
#

ye

worthy iron
#

yeah its like super painful

#

proccing trivium is much harder

barren phoenix
#

just use a high radius bag

#

also, i havent seen anyone talk about qol changes (elixir, throw other pot, aa easier to use)

#

i think they're very cool

worthy iron
#

throw other pot is ok

static plaza
#

hey guys
before last week's alch rework
was endgame r3's base pot damage (all skill, spec, and enhancement points) really 20 per pot

worthy iron
#

not sure about auto cast

chilly tiger
#

I love the AA change, I don't care about elixir change because I like the manual control, UA trigger is dope

worthy iron
#

doesnt seem good

#

I actually dont run AA in my current build

#

it just doesnt feel fun

barren phoenix
#

auto cast is personally better for me because i usually cast at a very bad efficienncy

worthy iron
#

any of u guys having problem with potion radius?

chilly tiger
#

I do manual control for Elixir because I like to swap between high jump boost and low jump boost

worthy iron
#

another idea I had for AA level 2 is just replace it with +40% potion radius

#

or +35%

#

kinda like odor

#

where level 2 is just a passive

chilly tiger
#

Anyways doing some quick math,
R1 "Best" Base damage got nerfed from 7 to 5.5 (0.78)x
R2 "Best" Base damage got nerfed from 16 to 10 (0.625x)
R3 "Best" Base damage got nerfed from 18 to 12 (0.666x)

worthy iron
#

r2 base is 15

#

r3 base is 19

#

I think?

chilly tiger
#

oh it might be 15/17

worthy iron
#

lemme check

barren phoenix
#

0.5*10 + 2*4 + 1.5*2

#

iirc

worthy iron
#

hmm

chilly tiger
#

ah so yeah 16 with brutal 2 (i'm counting that since this is 'best" base damage)

#

otherwise i'd have to consider the other pots and what average pot is etc etc

worthy iron
#

hmmmm I have a good idea for AA rework

chilly tiger
#

actually maybe i'll just use base commons

worthy iron
#

putting it in doc rn

foggy heart
#

Hows new alch dmg looking kioci?

chilly tiger
#

Pretty neato in R3, the same in R1

worthy iron
#

its not ideal but kinda works

chilly tiger
#

R2 still sucks

#

I don't like R2 alch

worthy iron
#

my creeper builds does wipe out mobs

chilly tiger
#

I think it still needs to be improved

worthy iron
#

r2 alch sucks even before the rework

#

tbh

chilly tiger
#

yeah true

worthy iron
#

with bag at least

chilly tiger
#

fine print nerf hit it super hard, and it already wasn't great

foggy heart
#

Was base r1 bag touched or buffed?

chilly tiger
#

not changed iirc

foggy heart
#

Or is it still 1 dmg flat

chilly tiger
#

oh wait nvm reverie bag was buffed slightly

#

and all bags were

#

by 1 yeah

barren phoenix
#

willows bag was changed, reverie was buffed

chilly tiger
#

except willows I think

static plaza
foggy heart
#

Except for white and orange

#

The buff doesn't exist, an illusion

chilly tiger
#

it ate some really brutal nerfs (25% cut to base damage and fine print nerf)

barren phoenix
#

yeah i never really liked r2 alch, now I do more

chilly tiger
#

it was still absolutely playable but not as untouchable as it once was, it really started to struggle

#

and now I kinda can't make it work at all in R2

barren phoenix
#

how

chilly tiger
#

Or well, it works but

static plaza
#

im not gonna count fine print nerf because poise alch isnt alch
but people playing less of r2 alch around november is maybe because people played less r2 in general
before r3 release alot of people played alch

chilly tiger
#

I feel like i'd do better as most other classes

#

R3 is a pretty significant buff to alch since the charms are honestly really cool

barren phoenix
#

welp, time to nerf all other classes kappa

worthy iron
#

any idea for bezoar enhancement rework? need a good one to put in my doc

#

got a cool one for AA (imo)

static plaza
#

picking them up reduces all ability cooldowns by a small amount

foggy heart
#

Share it

chilly tiger
#

Pre-Feb nerf of alch, R2 alch basically was fine if you built glassy and just coped with dying in 2 hits from anything above a 5-pt delve mob, now it kinda gets squashed by a lot of mobs and also really struggles to damage them (R3 alch fixes this by being beefy as fuck with apoth or having absurd damage multipliers with harb)

worthy iron
#

posting in a new thread rn

foggy heart
static plaza
#

do we really need more healing

chilly tiger
#

Because in all honesty, even relatively tanky poise R2 alch has worse ehp than like, basic buzz melee classes, and not nearly enough damage to deal with stuff now before they get a bunch of shots in

barren phoenix
#

bezoar can now be picked up by enemies, healing them

foggy heart
chilly tiger
#

based

worthy iron
#

honestly I do have ideas about bezoar exploding and damage mobs

chilly tiger
worthy iron
#

but that can be a negative to players

chilly tiger
#

because that'd fix the issue of bezors being a pain to pick up

foggy heart
static plaza
#

i got a question
am i a massive coper and if so is that why i thought r2 alch was good

chilly tiger
#

R2 alch functioned just fine it just... wasn't overpowered by any means

barren phoenix
#

it's because teal forum and shifting are quite hard

worthy iron
#

ngl if players get the buffs then enemy picking up bezoar can work

chilly tiger
#

and if you thought it was OP, that's because you played/saw it being played before the first wave of nerfs hit

worthy iron
#

writing that down

#

hmmm

foggy heart
#

Yeah i agree

#

That's way better now

chilly tiger
#

but I think there's more to it than just that

static plaza
foggy heart
#

I played alch pre nerf with emperor so 30dmg pots were goog yes

#

But after reading first 2 nerfs i knew the class is already beyond saving

chilly tiger
#

Rivaling mage is definitely a fair term for it, but given that alch kinda got shafted for being OP and mage... hasn't, I think that's kind of the important wording here

#

Alch was viewed as stronger than mage and therefore it got killed

#

when in R2 it was merely rivaling it

#

it was merely close to its power

static plaza
#

it was a solid option but not a better replacement

foggy heart
#

Have you tried mage to say it?

chilly tiger
#

I was a mage main before an alch main

static plaza
#

i play every class
so i can have a say in every gameplay discussion

foggy heart
#

Ah i see

chilly tiger
#

if I can talk out of my ass for any other class it'd be mage

foggy heart
#

Warrior mains still losing in the mean time

static plaza
#

i was an alch main before item rework, back when it sucked ass
current alch isnt as bad as that but people saying its bad because of february rework brings back old memories

chilly tiger
#

February rework is the rework of last week

#

I do not think a single other alch player tolerated alch besides me and like maybe Alychemist

foggy heart
#

Wait isn't it spelled Febuary?

barren phoenix
#

I still played and did fine last patch

chilly tiger
#

February is the correct spelling

foggy heart
#

Oh

worthy iron
#

do you do like 5pt pois

static plaza
foggy heart
#

I feel foolish

chilly tiger
chilly tiger
barren phoenix
static plaza
#

oh i tolerated it just fine
just weird that i cant deal enough damage to kill brown 12pt mobs in like 3 pots with bis r3 agil magic

chilly tiger
#

oh I didn't know there were other people who played with the super-nerfed alch

static plaza
#

weird thing about the rework was i liked the introduction of new alch bags and i enjoyed the new playstyle, just didnt like the damage, apoth was fine tho

chilly tiger
#

yeah fair

foggy heart
chilly tiger
#

Anyways I think once again, my biggest feedback is re-buff R2 alch

#

that's it

barren phoenix
#

aoe class struggling with boss 🤯

static plaza
#

mage

foggy heart
#

Mage

barren phoenix
#

mage lance got nerfed

foggy heart
#

Kills him with same gear
In 10 fucking seconds

#

R2 not r3 mate

chilly tiger
#

yeah I don't think R2 mage got touched

#

oh I guess it technically did

#

but a tiny omen nerf is hardly anything

static plaza
#

i hate mage its too good and for SOME REASON its probably the only class that hasn't had an ass rework that made it horrible to play
well, a rework i remember atleast

foggy heart
#

Warrior with depressed battle

static plaza
#

why are they so scared to nerf mage

foggy heart
#

TM probably mostly plays it

chilly tiger
#

Apparently Mage was supposed to be like the baseline class they compared all other classes to?

#

or something?

foggy heart
#

They nerfed astral omen today
5% less dmg and 2less skill dmg

chilly tiger
#

in which case, if so, only berserker is above that baseline

foggy heart
#

Big change ngl, my dps dropped by 90%

static plaza
#

thats stupid i think
why not compare a class to every other class

barren phoenix
#

(im new anyways so i might not know)

chilly tiger
#

Monarch or Aristotle I forget

#

lemme try to remember the message

static plaza
#

#gameplay-discussion message

#

oops you found it already

foggy heart
#

Okay so the state after current patch:
-Alch r2 still a meme
-Warriors now sell their mw3 epoch and start using t3 axe
-another scout buff
-mage still good because they nerfed astral omen like it would fo anything

static plaza
#

scout buff? didnt see that

foggy heart
#

Piercing charm

#

From portal

#

4 > 2 charm power

static plaza
#

oh damn
that is good

foggy heart
#

Yes

static plaza
#

i was expecting for you to say swift cuts

foggy heart
#

Who tf uses melee scout

static plaza
#

avo and manmonke

foggy heart
#

They can make it 100% more swift cuts damage and it would still be barelly usable in r3

#

The problem is lack of charms
Yes the change is welcome but the damage overall still will be meh

coral pecan
coral pecan
worthy iron
#

we are like

foggy heart
worthy iron
#

kinda far from "nerf it too much"

foggy heart
#

What kind of argument is that

coral pecan
#

Because every class struggles the most in r2

#

compared to any other region

foggy heart
#

Last time i remember playing assasin i eas shredding through everything

#

Mage doesn't struggle as well

#

Especially with the beautiful 10s twisted kill time

coral pecan
#

With or without sote

foggy heart
#

Without

#

I'm too broke after buying FoL

#

And it was before i even had FoL

#

Back still on my uniques uncommons

worthy iron
#

also doesnt arcanist just flatten anything in r2

foggy heart
#

Oh and yeah warlock stays winning

coral pecan
#

Its also that for my r2 experience

#

If you run teal/shifting/forum

foggy heart
#

No clue about warrior as i don't play it

coral pecan
#

those dungeons are like all outliers to r2 standards

foggy heart
#

My cleric with Fissure experience was relaxing as well

coral pecan
#

or base?

foggy heart
#

Jtreee

#

Do you are have skill issue

coral pecan
#

Im literally trying to figure things out

foggy heart
#

Me too

coral pecan
#

I literally used to main Harb/Reaper lol

#

R2 is very varied difficulty wise imo

#

Thats why Im asking for context

foggy heart
#

And yes i do run teal forum shifting
In fact I'm doing shifting tomorrow
And did one recently with depeF as a mage

coral pecan
#

I ran 3 damage items and these skills

#

I had not a lot of issues on apoth nor harb

static plaza
coral pecan
#

solo 18pts

foggy heart
#

After nerfs?

coral pecan
#

I literally ran it on stage lol

foggy heart
#

Also who tf starts solo 18pt

barren phoenix
#

i tested solo 25pt

worthy iron
coral pecan
#

someone thats testing the iteration of alch youre currently playing

foggy heart
#

Huh

#

Whats your gear

coral pecan
#

It went really good when I played

#

R2 stuff just hits harder than R3 and R1

foggy heart
#

Odd

worthy iron
#

I think esoteric creeper is pretty good rn

#

even too good as opposed to pots

coral pecan
#

Crown of Chains, Elder's Cloak, Iridium Greaves, Mystic Snowshoes, Alrics eye gouger

#

I ran without infusions and forum pot

foggy heart
#

I was struggling against everything in my lime 12pt
With:
Emperors robe 3/4 and Transcendense

chilly tiger
#

ok well.. 3/4 emperor robes

foggy heart
#

And i mean damage
Not ejp

chilly tiger
#

aren't gonna fare well anywhere

coral pecan
foggy heart
#

I don't get hit anyway

chilly tiger
#

I should use forum pot though I think having basically 25% less damage than I should is affecting it

#

I think forum pot is the only way to go

coral pecan
#

solo yeah pensivewarp

foggy heart
#

10 base dmg is huge

static plaza
#

just use veils horizon, teal alch pants/dd pants, spellbinders, and probably transcendence or whatever you want

foggy heart
#

Heh

#

The part is

#

I'm broke

chilly tiger
#

oh well thankfully I have 7 wilting agents just willing to be fragged

static plaza
#

hi broke just get money
its that easy

worthy iron
#

I wish dd pot have like 8.5 damage

coral pecan
#

I think Nyaa has rentals for sets?

foggy heart
barren phoenix
#

i dont get people that are broke, like just play dungeons

static plaza
#

i wish every pot got another 2-3 damage

coral pecan
foggy heart
#

I wish base alch bag dealt more damage than hitting hekawt with t0 king's valley bow

static plaza
#

so true jestriee

chilly tiger
#

simply have money??

foggy heart
#

What i have does the job

#

Maybe it will finally make people join my lfgs

fossil vault
foggy heart
#

Renting set sounds even worse of an idea

coral pecan
#

Wait until people find out how to r3 summoner alch

#

I passed a harb main the build

#

conclusion:

#

@sick citrus does this sum up the experience youre having?

foggy heart
#

Esoteric hmm

worthy iron
#

my alch build still goes hard in new update

static plaza
coral pecan
static plaza
#

not based

coral pecan
#

Youre cringe

#

UA makes eso

static plaza
#

yeah
then why did you say just ua

coral pecan
#

Because why would I say more

#

but fair enough I see where youre coming from

worthy iron
#

ok new thread posted

#

go check

barren phoenix
#

time to look at human made horrors beyond my comprehension kappa

worthy iron
#

#gameplay-builds-archive message

#

my alch build

chilly tiger
#

Ok yeah actually nihilo proof makes R2 alch feel.. playable

worthy iron
#

how much % magic you have

chilly tiger
#

63% in r2

#

I don't think having any less damage than this would make r2 alch function though

#

Like I can't imagine a world where i'd ever pick any other bag but this one

sick citrus
#

Hi who called me

coral pecan
#

I ran 45% with proof

#

me

#

scroll up

worthy iron
chilly tiger
#

oh I mean base damage not magic%

coral pecan
#

context is there

chilly tiger
#

No, basic old glassy-focused poise build

coral pecan
#

oh mb

#

Yeah youre right

chilly tiger
#

although I guess with fine print being nerfed it's hardly a poise build

worthy iron
#

evasion stacking is like rn the only way to get damage and not instantly explode on hit

#

in r2

coral pecan
chilly tiger
#

🤷 well, I don't really want to play with evasion 🤷

coral pecan
#

evasions cucks ranged units, main alch weakness

static plaza
#

for a second i thought you meant old evasion

coral pecan
#

mob wise

chilly tiger
#

Honestly I think the only way teal bag would be takable is if it had like 9.5 base damage

sick citrus
chilly tiger
#

or some other minute difference between it and nihilo proof

worthy iron
#

honestly

chilly tiger
worthy iron
#

I want dd bag to be usable for offensive

chilly tiger
#

idk if evasion would work

coral pecan
#

bumkers breaking the game inc

zenith moth
#

What

#

I'm just reading the chat

worthy iron
#

also forum bag not having 2h is a capitial offense

coral pecan
#

Wasnt too serious about it

worthy iron
#

same as reverie bag not having coc

chilly tiger
#

I don't really see a world where bag diversity exists tbh

static plaza
#

yeah still disappointed with the lack of variety
the bags are still rares
why does mage get op main weapons while all alch gets are basically skill activators

chilly tiger
#

I think no matter what, the max damage bag is always the best one

worthy iron
#

Imma just say check my thread

chilly tiger
#

because alch has no damage and needs it anywhere it can get it

worthy iron
#

I think I made some interesting choices

chilly tiger
#

Like in my head, aptitude 1 is worth like what.. 7% base damage? 6%? Should all alch bags be so close together in damage values as to have teal bag be like 9.5 or 9.25 base damage while nihilo proof is 10?

static plaza
#

galactic this is the 3rd alch related feedback post youve made in recent memory

worthy iron
#

there are super high damage bags but they are not worth taking for all cases

#

go reply in it

#

idc

worthy iron
chilly tiger
#

ok so 9 base damage I guess

worthy iron
#

but it focuses on too much of all of these

#

and its good in none of them

chilly tiger
#

I guess it's like, for melee, theres an upper limit of usefulness for damage

#

eventually you'll oneshot everything

sick citrus
#

i would like to see a First Strike alch bag

distant junco
#

why this forum almost 2000 messages

chilly tiger
#

but for alch, you can never oneshot anything

#

you can never even twoshot anything

#

and so building for damage is the only way

#

that's the only stat that matters

static plaza
#

twoshotting was a thing before last week

barren phoenix
worthy iron
barren phoenix
#

omg the trash bag alchemist bag

distant junco
worthy iron
#

guys go post on my new thread

barren phoenix
#

stink aspect 2

worthy iron
#

need feedback

barren phoenix
#

i think it would be funny if noone posted on that thread

#

because this one seems to be main

static plaza
#

yeah lets just not post on that one
this one's name is just Alchemist so its clearly funnier

worthy iron
#

no

chilly tiger
#

ah wait charms

sick citrus
#

but fr i don't get why people are still not satisfied with current alch, pot damage is way better than what we had last week, and alch is still pretty fun to play

static plaza
#

the problem is
alch was ok before last week
last week's damage was bad and this week improved it sure, but people really want to see alch's damage go back to what it was before

sick citrus
#

yea but the problem is old alch is kinda OP

distant junco
#

16->10

static plaza
#

op because of aa imo

distant junco
chilly tiger
#

Was it really that OP though? Like, it already had gone through a 25% base damage nerf and only was really OP because of AA (which was thankfully removed)

#

we never got to see a world where alch's damage remained the same while AA was removed

distant junco
#

OP is aa and poise imo

static plaza
#

i wouldnt say its simple to do but all alch needs rn is to get its old damage back while taking aa into account and nerfing it

chilly tiger
#

I guess my question now is, would anyone deny that alch is the worst class?

#

Ignoring its past

distant junco
chilly tiger
#

ignoring what it used to be

distant junco
#

In r2

#

R3 is hmmmmmm

chilly tiger
#

And if nobody can deny it is the worst class, what can be done to fix that fact?

distant junco
#

My damage is double as r2

chilly tiger
#

This is 100% a step in the right direction but there is still more that needs to be done

distant junco
#

I don’t know why

#

Maybe a lot skill buff base damage

static plaza
#

i wouldnt say its the worst class because if there were a "worst class" then a "best class" should also exist
but i would say that playing alch isnt as preferable

chilly tiger
distant junco
#

Ye and also enhancement

chilly tiger
distant junco
#

Gonna do some test with forum bag

static plaza
#

yeah
mage isnt the best class because its too op
bers isnt the best class because its too fun

distant junco
#

Or I just go back play rogue

chilly tiger
#

Best as in like strongest

#

not best as in... most enjoyable

#

because obviously that varies

distant junco
#

He take emotion and feeling into account I think

static plaza
#

yeah
i still wouldnt say mage

distant junco
#

Not much need to discuss best or worst

#

I only say reaper is dead

#

(Real

static plaza
#

reaper is just underplayed
Its actually so good in teamplay and solo you cannot die at all

distant junco
distant junco
#

But ye need a lot testsing

#

For clear efficiency

#

And mob type for different content also affect a lot thing

static plaza
#

has their name always been pearuhdox
i thought it was pearluhdox
anyways mage could be the best class for damage (but maybe rogue and bers are solid contenders) but when you say best class you need to take into account the survivability and other factors
sure rogue deals high boss dps but you need to not get hit, etc

chilly tiger
#

tbf, not being able to kill mobs does also cause one to die an awful lot

distant junco
#

So, I won’t deny

#

Nor agree

#

Because the thing idk I just idk

static plaza
#

best class =/= strongest class

chilly tiger
#

even despite alchs "great survivability"

#

wait wrong clip

distant junco
#

Less brainpower need?
Clear efficiency?
Funny ?
Best is undefine

coral pecan
#

this clip was get cucked as alch with the worst situations into 1

distant junco
coral pecan
#

7

#

or 7.5

distant junco
#

Ic

chilly tiger
coral pecan
#

it isnt NP

chilly tiger
static plaza
#

alch DOES have great survivability
you just need to either play with other people or spec into that survivability since alch doesnt have that range anymore

coral pecan
#

Or y'know

#

dont have shitass positioning on a magic damage class

#

when you have aoe knockback

#

build into base

zenith moth
# coral pecan it isnt NP

I love how all these alchemist changes stemmed from us coping in teal with monarch, getting a support alch, and finally winning.

coral pecan
#

thats incredibly safe against melee uses

chilly tiger
#

UA has killed me a lot more than it's kept me safe against melee tbh

coral pecan
chilly tiger
#

the mobs getting scattered just makes them harder to keep track of

coral pecan
#

Offcenter the UA?

#

like place them to the side of the horde