Operation Replace Fragile or New Delve Mod

[hollow crown]

As it is, the Fragile Delve Modifier is the anti-wallet modifier, forcing players to use way too many anvils in higher point delves. I am very sure that if I were to run a poll about which modifier they would want out of the game, Fragile would be one of the top 3. This modifier has become a detriment to many savings, having placed many brave souls in a financial crisis amidst the chaos of high point delves. There are also well enough many preferable money sinks in Monumenta.

📌 Because of this, I suggest the Combo Delve Modifier

In a nutshell, it basically allows mods like Infernal, Arcanic, Transcendent, etc. to apply to Delve Mobs like Colossi, Dreadnaughts, Specters and Twisteds. The same concept might apply to how said delve mobs spawn. With the concept in mind, the following scenarios may happen if the Combo Modifier is active:

Scenario 1: Killing an elite with both the Dreadnaught & Legionary Delve Mod has a 15-75% Chance to duplicate a Dreadnaught.
Scenario 2: Mining a spawner with the Colossi & Legionary Delve Mod has a 7.5-18.75% Chance to duplicate a Colossal.
Scenario 3: If the Transcendent Delve Mod is active, Dreadnaughts have a 10-50% Chance to be Transcendent.
Scenario 4: Dreadlings now spawn in swarms of 6 instead of 4.
Scenario 4: Swordsage Twisted Shadow
Scenario 5: Dupe Specters
Scenario 6: Transcendent Dreadlings

While all of these scenarios may seem fucking ridiculous and unplayable, this is only a concept, having acknowledged the possible scenarios that may or may not be a thing if this modifier does become active. It is completely up to the devs whether or not they want Transcendent Dreadlings to be a thing . I would like to hear your ideas for Combo down below.

that's typically not a good thing if it currently exists in the game

[gilded raft]

how about we just kill Fragile

and make it not be in the game 👍

[hollow crown]

you're going to have to if you want the delve trophies homie

[languid lion]

It's not happening, y'all.

We've had this discussion plenty of times.

[hollow crown]

Fragile is the worst gimmick for a delve modifier, directly influencing eco and gameplay instead of influencing gameplay only

[reef marsh]

that's literally not a solution

[hollow crown]

tunnel vision

[languid lion]

It never comes up in random rotations. Don't try to remove others' fun because you don't enjoy it.

It doesn't affect you.

[reef marsh]

but it does

[gilded raft]

fun?

[hollow crown]

objectively, the modifier is just horrible.

it just makes you more broke

dud

shut up

[reef marsh]

that's the point, people dont like the modifier, its not a "dont try to remove others fun"

[hollow crown]

you DO realize the delve trophies require all pts, fragile exists in r1 and r2

you STILL need to have it active to get the delve trophy

[mental patrol]

it has been confirmed that its getting changed on how u get delve trophies

[surreal plank]

don't feel like any of this is "objective" judgements

[hollow crown]

that's not the POINT

talking to a fucking wall rn

while i am completely against fragile, this feedback was to suggest replacement for fragile

[mental patrol]

ok so we can just add this modifier and keep fragile

[bronze gull]

Yeah once delve trophies are fixed to not be awful and include fragile, there’s not really any reason to complain other than thinking it’s harmful to the game for even existing, but then it’s just “I want it in the game because it’s not hurting you” vs “I don’t want it in the game because it’s bad for the game”. Which is about as good an argument as throwing faeces

[hollow crown]

it was intended to have discussion for a possibly better alternative

[languid lion]

Which involves the removal of Fragile

[gray nacelle]

tbf there’s a lot of modifiers already especially compared to before, unless it becomes a weekly

[mental patrol]

why does it NEED an alternative! once delve trophies are given a different method to get them... it doesnt matter

[reef marsh]

nope, and i havent met anyone who does either

[mental patrol]

i mean if u play in a group u usually just have to do 25 for any loot

[hollow crown]

in that case KEEP fragile, the combo modifier is still a suggestion regardless

[mental patrol]

.

[reef marsh]

honestly, there's no reason to keep discussing this, ari already said that fragile's not going anywhere

as bad as it is to the game, i know better than to try to convince tm otherwise

[hollow crown]

for a post this long, it would be better to post it in feedback instead

Operation Replace Fragile or New Delve Mod

[languid lion]

I don't appreciate the passive aggressive jab. We've been very communicative about this particular issue and make dozens of fixes based on feedback a month. Please don't make it sound like because we disagree with you that we can't be reasoned with or convinced of things.

[reef marsh]

... sorry

i know its not true, but sometimes thats really how it comes across

[compact yarrow]

Fragile is ok

If you select once every oblivion

Honestly fragile should be you are weaker when your are shattered, like shatter 1 now debuff you bye 30%, shatter 2 by 40% and shatter 3 is 80%

[spring shale]

I have never used fragile

terrible, terrible delve mod in my opinion

but that's fine as long as I continue to never use it :like:

[reef marsh]

hey, this really isnt a bad suggestion at all

[spring shale]

I think tm has been pretty clear on the point that fragile is not going to be removed but it's no longer required (or will no longer be) required for anything so I think this is the best us fragile haters will get

it's not that hard to just never take a second look at it again

[burnt bone]

Combo modifier presents a simple problem, I do not want the strong delve mobs to get any of the stupid abilities from other mods

Vengeful melee specter will exhaust a lot of player resources to kill on their own

God help you if a twisted shadow is infernal or arcanic or even bloodthirsty

There’s also potential bugs with Dreadnaughts spawning more Dreads because they are elite

There’s also the added issue of said modifier being free when run with other mods

[compact yarrow]

I dont want a sea of dreadnaughts

From a single elite

[burnt bone]

Me when transcendent dread dupes dreadlings

[spring shale]

transcendant dreadnaught when it spawns so many dreadlings you are physically unable to get to the boss and then it rips your torso right off your legs with a single transcendant missile:

[warm nexus]

afaik there are quite a couple of people who pick this in low points (<18pts), especially for lootrunning or speedrunning pass missions

[chilly grove]

change fragile to have infernal's "take more environmental damage", scale it across 5pts, and give infernal an increased chance to proc to compensate

[spring shale]

the only reason why people use fragile is in low pt delves in relatively safe content

like idk orange

[languid lion]

I use it for fun, I imagine others do too.

[languid lion]

Thank you for saying so, and I'm sorry it feels this way.

[normal fog]

dupe dreads sounds so fun

[burnt bone]

I want to be able to pick the mod as a scout/paladin/reaper

[chilly grove]

I love having to deal with four transcendent elites in a row that all regenerate 120% of their max hp when they reach half health

[thin stump]

After serval run with no epic build and with a newbie friend it really make the game fun.
Ye change my mind. Tho it’s only at very small of group of people.
It made me and my friend being more cautious about play the dungeon. And the anvil cost let both of us playing less aggressive and be like mine spawner before open chest. Looks around to see and leftover mobs for to be safe.
Using rare and no infusion to prevent powercreep for myself. Also fragile being like a passive. So my friend is like learn a modifier one at the time completely. Not just go brrr mob die or she die. And being oh this modifier triggered this kind of ability and learned how to counter it.

Ah f accidentally text wall lmao

It’s like echoes but bugless(or none)

Myself thinking of 3 dimensions of modifier that come out with x:reward y:bug z:difficulty

A bugless balanced reward and difficulty modifier is best if possible

But it comes to community what is difficulty for a modifier

Reward basically just points that’s easy to calculate

#suggestions-voting message

I would like to see this happen xD

[thin stump]

So that speedy boi modifier is a low difficulty high reward and buggy so it got removed

[thorn sinew]

Just make some modifier that is actually good
Anomaly : summon mini bosses after killing x mob , mini boss will change type depend on what you kill ( water , airborne, monster , undead , humanlike)

[spring shale]

hire fans (soon there will be a leaping creeper dreadnaught)

imagine leaping creepers

creepers that have access to all the movement abilities except charge

and will do everything in their power to explode on you

thinking like

when the creeper gets close it jumps up for a meteor slam but that's a fake and it uses backstab like 3 times before exploding

or it jumps up and bodkins down and while you're still disoriented from the slam it explodes in your face

[thin stump]

Go #suggestions-bot-feed

Like the days people will laugh very hard to the one obtain full pt trophy by deathrun but this days just nah

Development of new modifier is less work than trophy tweak? Idk

New modifier get more audience than delve trophy? Idk

But again it will back to TM is volunteers.

[chilly grove]

charged creeper that has invisibility, assassin teleport, charge, leap, instaboom, has all infernal and arcanic spells, summons more of itself like paradoxes, has high move speed, and carries 20 lingering potions

[compact yarrow]

A M A Z I N G 🤩

Wait did i ghost ping you

[thorn sinew]

Choler: static event on player last 10 % more and 5% effectiveness per level ( silent , slowness , vulnerability, fire , wither , poison )
Cyrosesis: mob have 7% to become froze , froze mob will use ability ( summoning baby zombie , frost nova , and aura that gives mining fatigue and slowness )
Wrapped : mob have 15% to become wrapped
Wrapped mob will either silent , reduce your healing or apply vulnerability to player on hit for 5 second

[frozen summit]

Make it so that you still get shatter 2 on death, but recovers 2 shatter collecting grave
So it is harder to get back to grave rather than a net loss anyway

[tawdry agate]

I mean
Most of the TM is fans who proved that they have the ability, expertise, and skills to contribute to the game. And I don’t mean to be reductive, but usually you need a larger skill set then just game design.
Unless you got those skills
In which case apply

https://tenor.com/view/ceiling-fan-spinning-ceiling-spin-fan-gif-17715746

although this in someway is true for all delve mods. I feel the problem with fragile is that if you have a somewhat decent amount of money, you can just circumvent the mod completely.

Although it is fun, especially in lower point dungeons where it’s reasonable to survive but still stressful to prevent death

Although reasonably the most survivable way to play shatter would be with a coordinated team of healers/buffers/tanky players who can keep eachother alive and deal with threats quickly.

[chilly grove]

dps check but for money 👍

[little viper]

I think combo delve modifieris cool

[twilit forge]

Fragile isn’t going anywhere, if you don’t like it don’t pick it

I for one pick fragile in nearly every delve dungeon I run, it’s a really fun way to decrease the temptation to deathrun mid point delves (12-18 point solo) and think it captures that perfectly

If you’re annoyed it’s required for “max point” stuff, the current max point systems for trophies are going away with something coming in the not too distant future

[brazen grail]

i dont understand a good reason fragile should exist but at the same time not much reason to remove it if its not necessary for trophies

so i'm impartial here

[languid lion]

I think if you don't find it fun to have material consequences to failure, no amount of discussion is going to convince you to like it.
It's like a roller coaster, or horror movies. Someone who doesn't enjoy being scared isn't going to be reasoned into enjoying it.
Same reason some of us prefer permadeath RL. The tension of one slip-up being materially catastrophic is suspenseful, and enhances the experience.
But if you want to play Delves like Super Meat Boy, go for it. That's the glory of Delves - tailoring the challenge to the experience you want.

[thin stump]

.

My point of view that a modifier should exit or not

[little viper]

could combo delve modifier be added tho?

[zealous silo]

Addressing 'combo' specifically, I really think that modifier is broken in every way imaginable.
First off, the price would need to be some weird formula or something depending on your currently selected modifiers, because you really can't give this a flat amount since everyone would abuse it on low point delves, as it wouldn't do anything.

Then, let's go to the gameplay problem, there are very good reasons some delve modifiers don't work together. The sheer degeneracy this would cause on anything past low point delves or presets specifically made to avoid combo would be massive. Stuff like Arcanic, vengeful dreadlings; 'Swordsage' transcendent Albert or Spectral loops.
Remember that point about max point delves being very punishing economically with fragile? I know it's been said max point trophies were getting changed so it is irrelevant as a point, but I find it ironic just how much worse combo would be for max points, as they would be nigh unplayable.

[little viper]

:(

[thin stump]

(Where is combo modifier

(I mean the text

[little viper]

very top

[thin stump]

Can we get renlentless back

It’s bug free too

Ok question is modifier exist for exist or exist for select

Nah this kind snarky

[topaz solstice]

probably already seconded somewhere but yeah fragile is not a good modifier, outside of scaling it doesn’t really affect the gameplay like the other mods and just wastes money

but i mean just pick pern dread chiv twisted legionary and call it a day, its just a choice of “challenge”

outside of trophies

remove it from trophies

[jovial wasp]

remove trophies

[unborn marten]

I don't know about you but when me getting killed actually matters I usually change my gameplay

[surreal plank]

does feel like it's a change in philosophy, some see the extra level of shatter as a reason to play more carefully and some see it as a mod that is doing nothing to them except making them pay more when they die, so instead of adjusting play to match the punishment that comes from death, they treat it as no change except an unavoidable cost

[severe kindle]

Fragile changes very little about how I play since I don't consider death an option when doing dungeons

But even then I still dislike it since it doesn't add very much difficulty to a delve beyond raw scaling

[thin stump]

Which is more people think fragile given challenge or people who think renlentless velocity things is not buggy

[severe kindle]

Fragile is not a challenge, it just makes doing challenging things more punishing if you fail

[thin stump]

Tbh I don’t know renlentless is buggy until it got removed

[sinful hemlock]

well
if you view death as something to always avoid as much as possible then yes

but if you normally view death as not that bad, then fragile would change that alot (basically what zig said above)

[thin stump]

Unrelated, fragile kind….like lootrun?

Fragile let easier to loot same as lootrun

Some people think fragile is challenging and fun same as lootrun

[sinful hemlock]

lootrunning with or without armor

[thin stump]

With

Without call deathrun

[sinful hemlock]

mmmmmm
depends how much you die
but there's also alot of mods that don't affect you much when you lootrun

colossal, dreadful, spectral, probably more

[thin stump]

I mean the core of that why it exist

But ye I got you mean

[thin stump]

Lootrun n Fragile
Challenge for some people, not major people do it.
Some people hate it.
Endgame gear makes it much easier.

[tawdry glacier]

Scenario 1: Killing an elite with both the Dreadnaught & Legionary Delve Mod has a 15-75% Chance to duplicate a Dreadnaught.

Shadowcast Bastille elite drops another elite
the original elite can be duped by legion
with dread 5 that would be 2 dreadnaughts spawning out of 1 original elite
and applying legion to make it 2 elites that would be 4 dreadnaughts
now the dreadnaughts can dupe themselves
there can be a maximum of 8 dreadnaughts out of 1 single spawner of that elite

[compact yarrow]

Uh oh a sea of dreadlings!

[jovial wasp]

Oh YES

[tawdry agate]

Fragile is described as a mosquito to the middle class and rich of monumenta
The third estate is struggling and can’t afford the taxes
It’s time for a glorious revolution to end the ruling classes and establish a new beautiful fren- Ditchen republic!

[brazen grail]

I'm gonna say a couple things that may or may not make sense but here:
I see fragile as a countermeasure against spawner rushers or people that play dangerously I.E. going in mob-filled rooms and expecting to die without repercussion in normal circumstances.
However, I also see fragile as a limiting factor as to what you can use/try, because some classes, no matter how you cut it, are just not built as tanky/survivable as others (examples would be comparing berserker's 50% passive DR against assassin's paper playstyle).
This becomes a problem for SOME and I say that because people generally want to use what works best for them, and nothing else.
In the case that someone wants to try a new playstyle, set, weapon, etc, fragile kind of deters them from doing so because of the anvil deficit, and while not TOO large, it builds up over time, especially for the lesser-skilled players, or the players that just simply don't have the gear yet.
I think some people may even enjoy fragile since it puts the risk in dying, and then there are those that hate it because it adds unnecessary cost without adding gameplay at all, kind of the opposite of the rotational modifiers that add EXP gain while adding a unique concept (Yes, even haunted).
But at the same time? Whatever right? Who cares! Just don't pick it. An unwinnable argument because it's pretty true.
At the same time, I think it's better for now if we wait to see what the new high delve point changes are, since fragile may not even be required for max trophy anymore (The other reason you'd pick it besides easy points for <18pt)

[cloud wing]

fragile is an awesome mod it's free points besides ur max pts scenario .

[thin stump]

awesome because it's free?

[cloud wing]

Yeah

[tawdry glacier]

average capitalism in monumenta

[spring shale]

when I use fragile I straight up just run naked

I do risky plays all the time and fragile would just cost me half a stack of anvils per dungeon

so the solution here is just to wear no armor

now fragile is just free 5pt!!!