Why the servants weren't eaten by the rats?

[strange cairn]

I wanna know your theories on why servants weren't eaten in APTI. I forgot which youtuber pointed this out(feel free to tell if you know who he is), but he was making a review on Innocence and pointed out as a con the fact that a lot of questions are made,but a few are answered. He especially pointed out the servants scene. His first thought was that those all of the people Hugo loved and somehow that energy got transfered to the rats and
that is why they didn't eat them. But! Why do then the rats try to eat Amicia?I think
he himself stated that
maybe Hugo still didn't get close to Amicia as much, but still, why would then the rats try and eat Hugo? What do you think?

[formal yew]

The "servants were loved by Hugo therefore they weren't eaten" is a pretty valid and logical argument and it is indeed weird that they still try to eat Amicia and Hugo (tho I supose this is mostly relevant for gameplay purposes)

It is yet another question that the story never answered properly.

[strange cairn]

Yeah. A lot of times story and gameplay make a discrepancy.

[formal yew]

Notice how by the end of Innocence the rats don't atack any friendly foe around them, the rats and Hugo are basically connected to eachother and the recognise eachothers goals and feelings

[strange cairn]

Yes, but, as I was thinking about it it is just a thorn in the eye.

Like why????

Ok they have a conection with him.

And ok he and amicia had a lot of ups and downs and whatevee

But he got very close to Arnaud

Very fast

And the whole requiem

Hugo cannot control them

Almost*

In that manner you said.

Theres a scene in a cave where Hugo says

I can only control a fee at the time

And litteraly that cave had less rats than Vitalis final boss

[formal yew]

Requiem is a whole different thing

[strange cairn]

Yes

And I understand that they had to make a game that doesn't depend on innocence

[formal yew]

Yet a younger Hugo, still in the first threshold was able to control thousands of rat swarms after suffering emotional trauma

[strange cairn]

Because they knew innocence was underrated

But I think that they went a bit too far with how much they are ignoring innocence

[strange cairn]

When was that?

[formal yew]

Vitalis fight...

Mind you, this happened just a few minutes after witnessing Rodric dying

It is what it is, this is why I don't like to use Requiem as a base of justifying things

[strange cairn]

Some say desperate situations make desperate doings, but we say low publicity makes high retconing

Hihihi

[formal yew]

Something like that

Requiem had more publicity then Innocence

Not enough some may argue, tho I don't think it's that important anyways

[bleak sandal]

Maybe Macula sees the Protector as an enemy? I mean we see that Amicia relentlessly fights Macula to protect Hugo, so that may be why Macula especially wants Amicia dead.

[formal yew]

That still doesn't explain the rest

[strange cairn]

@formal yew I think that you are right when it comes Requiem. You can not use it to justify some things...I dunno about you all but to me it's actually sad.

How they had to retcon a lot of stuff just so Requiem would be more consumer friendly...

[formal yew]

Hence why Requiem doesn't mean as much to me

[strange cairn]

Fair.

[manic pier]

There are two possibilities, the first is that Hugo and the rats are related and therefore the people that Hugo loved are not eating, the other says that it is possible that they were sick with an illness. For my part I still have two other theories, the least probable says that it is because these people have a more or less distant blood connection with the DeRunes, the most probable is simply that the rats do not eat the bodies of people already dead, all the servants were killed by the inquisition.

[languid mulch]

I would say that the only thing between the macula and Hugo is Amicia on the other hand the servants where just there to take care of Hugo and as mentioned in APTI that the gardener mentioned to the guards that he loved to play withe flowers so the servents somehow had a bound to each other like friends or so but it only gets more confusing forward on where the rats know who to attack and not to my theory is that Hugo actually had a good control over them as mentioned by Beatrice that in a certain wave of the macula it's to control it or it controls you so assuming on what happened Hugo had a grap on them and as we get to know how the rats think is that there only gool is to take over Hugo and it feeds on he's negative emotions as mentioned in both games so that leads to the damn rats know who is in there way and who isn't as examples they know Lucas is trying to help Hugo so they constantly try to get him so goes for Amicia this might sound harsh but as a specialist in child mental health Hugo might actually connected fear and negative emotions to Amicia and Lucas which is naturally alit Happens and bearly no time to cope that's why in the 6 months between the two games Hugo was healthy and nothing bothered him or triggered he's negative emotions which as Amicia mentioned in APTR "he was fine but it started all over again" which means hes trauma got triggered by the bee guys and the running away wich only led worse, in my opinion if Hugo and Amicia actually had some quality time in lacuna instead of going around and search for an answer thing would had been fine because after arriving nothing really happed they where mostly goffing around till Amicia fell down and they had to sneak and run wich triggered the emotions again which was sadly the point where was no going back Amicia thought there's no way around and it always follow them instead that there doing was the problem, same thing goes for the order he only triggered Hugo emotions and made the same mistake.

[gentle stratus]

they weren't gonna eat Hugo or Amicia, only kill them

[formal yew]

The issue is the same, why not touch the servants but actively try to kill the Carrier and his most loved person

Not eating the servants shows the rats recognise the importance of them to Hugo, therefore it wouldn't make sense for them to do that but then try to kill Amicia

[gentle stratus]

they seem to be avoiding that kind of blood but the Macula still remains with the same goal. Kill everyone

[formal yew]

That is something that can't be said for certain, considering even the own story doesn't seem to make its mind on the matter

In Innocence Lucas says the Macula doesn't care about good nor evil and that it only travels in the blood of families and goes on evolving. It doesn't have a goal, but we are show that it reacts accordingly with the Carrier's emotions. If the Carrier is calm and in peace, the Macula will calm down but if he is angry it will increase the potency and extent of it's destructive powers.

Ultimately, the Macula doesn't have a goal of its own. Saying it does contradicts Lucas' statement

[gentle stratus]

Lucas saying something that early game doesn't neccesarily mean its a fact. He himself was still studying and was in a very early stage. We do find out that the Macula is like a curse in requiem and that it can behave as a person with will because of the dreams Hugo would constantly have of the phoenix drawing him to La Cuna, the Macula would always draw him from place to place showing him different things. Also Lucas did refer to the Macula as something with personality in Requiem by telling Amicia that Hugo's bond with the Macula is getting stronger. Or when he told Amicia that the Macula is talking through him, if the Macula had no will and no conscious it wouldn't be capable of talking back.

the game didn't make it clear why the servents are not being eaten, Lucas and Amicia were both confused regarding that but it has to do with the Macula whatever the reason is. In the end of the day the goal would still be the same. Kill and destroy everything on its path

[formal yew]

Yes, Lucas' statements aren't absolute truth, but we can literally use that same argument to discard what you said on those last lines. Even in Requiem Lucas is still a unexperienced alchemist who messes up.

About the Phoenix. It's one of the reasons why I don't like Requiem's narrative. The phoenix makes no sense in the narrative so I wouldn't use it for arguments

[gentle stratus]

im not attacking anyone's statement but i disagree with the saying that the game contradicts itself by not eating the servents. we can make theories but we don't know what the Macula was really doing, only its goal

[gentle stratus]

the Phoenix is the Macula leading him. Its just a symbol inside of his dream that he thought was at first friendly because in his dream the Phoenix saves him but in reality the macula was just leading him to his death. And Hugo realizes that and tells Amicia in his last minutes that this was a lie that just brought death. Even though Amicia said "there was truth in it"that statement is still inaccurate because if there is a little bit of truth in a lie that makes it a deception which is even more dangerous. There are no contradictions here

[gentle stratus]

also, Lucas knew more about the Macula in Requiem than in Innocence. Especially at the end when he knew exactly what would happen before they even jumped into the nebula cloud he warned Amicia that this is about to break the natural laws when they pass that line

Beatrice was teaching him how the Macula works and we would even see that in chapter two when Amicia walked downstairs and we heard him taking yet another lessons

in Innocence Lucas didn't know much about the Macula, all he knew was what Laurentius told him about it, Laurentius referred to the Macula as "The First Corruption" that they were desperately trying to stop and they didn't even realize thats not possible to stop which goes to show that their experience with the Macula wasn't that much if they were thinking they can stop it

[formal yew]

The Macula could have just finished him off whenever it wanted, it didn't need to make him go on a full on journey just to mess him up. It does indeed contradict things.

If its absolute goal is to kill and destroy everything, the Macula simply wouldn't obey Hugo and would let Vitalis wipe out the rest of the world, because that would be the fastest way to do so. The Macula would comand the rats to kill Amicia, Hugo and all the rest in no time, and Hugo wouldn't be able to fight back at all.

Once again, why lie and decieve them to do all that if the ultimate goal is to kill them.
It contradicts aswell because we know that in the beginning of Innocence the rats helped Amicia and Hugo escape the Inquisition, something that Amicia herself aknowledges later on ("the rats were the reason we managed to escape that day" or something like that)

[gentle stratus]

the reason the macula lured him and didn't kill him was because Hugo was its ultimate weapon, the natural carrier of the Prima Macula so young and innocent and easily deceivable, so the Macula took advantage of him and played with his emotions to give in and let it control him. If the Macula kills him then it is powerless. Also Vitalis did indeed try to kill everyone, but he wasn't the natural carrier of the Macula he was just a mad man driven by power, on top of that he modified the Macula with alchemy that he can create his own plague army.
You mix up The Macula's will with The Macula's capabilities. The Macula cannot do anything without the agreement of its host. Dont forget that Hugo literally forced the whole plague to end in the end of Innocence and the Macula had to obey, whether it liked it or not. That just goes to show that the Macula needed to lure him in order to gain control and allow him to get in charge

also, dont forget the Macula tried to kill Amicia and Lucas multiple times because they were working hard to stop it and after Hugo's mother death he partly gave permission to the Macula and then the Macula tried to kill them with nebula nests

and when Amicia screamed to the giant rat egg "YOU WONT HAVE HIM, HE IS COMING WITH ME"it suddenly awoke and tried to kill them once again

the Macula is under the control of the carrier but its will is clearly seen in both games

your last sentence stating that the rats were the reason we managed to escape that day, in case you are talking about innocence chapter 1 where the guards were attacking, the reason the Macula helped them was because it needed Hugo. It's not the first time we see the Macula defend its host, we also saw a defense like formation in Requiem when Hugo lost his whole sanity when he witnessed his mother's death and as he started calling rats we would see there was a formation sort of a defense that would spin around them in circles making sure no one gets in while the rest of the rats were attacking the soldiers at Hugo's command.

[formal yew]

The Macula can do things without the agreement.
We see instances were Hugo himself admits he cannot control the rats. For example when they are eating something or when they are doing those rat spiral things. Hugo himself admits.

And no, Hugo wasn't the ultimate weapon. Vitalis was. Even if his rats were modified, it wouldn't really matter. He still had Hugo's blood and a part of the Macula within himself. If anything, having modified rats that don't fear the light would be much better in the Macula's eyes if its goal is the effective destruction.

Finally, once again, makes no sense. All it would take to make Hugo vulnerable and easy to decieve was to kill every one he knew right off the bat. The Macula could have killed Beatrice and Amicia right in front of him in the first chapter. That's literally all it would take. Of course all this journey is just for the sake of the plot, but logically, if the Macula's goal is killing, it could have done so easily in Innocence.

[gentle stratus]

the reason Hugo wasn't fully in control at all times is because the Macula feeds on his emotions and we know even from real life experience that controlling emotions is not an easy task when everything is going bad, He literally called on to the Macula to come back when the bee keepers held down Amicia. before that everything was again peaceful and nice, you would even see that Hugo was really afraid at first looking at the bee keepers holding Amicia down and then suddenly it switched and he hit the ground slowly and his whole face changed, he called the Macula to destroy them, he gave the Macula a inch and the Macula took a mile.

also, Vitalis wasn't the original Macula carrier, he just abused the power but wasn't ever meant to be the chosen one. The Macula choose Hugo to be the carrier. Vitalis just wanted to be the king of the world

[formal yew]

You are missing the point.
If we go by your argument that the Macula only cares about killing and destroying, then it doesn't matter who is the chosen or the original. If it wants to kill then it would obey the killer, as simple as that.

Once again, I know this is all for the sake of the plot so I don't really care much

[gentle stratus]

Vitalis wasn't fulfilling that. He cared about nothing but the power and he knew exactly what he was dealing with while Hugo was a little innocent child easily deceivable that had a lot more destruction power in his veins than Vitalis ever had, also dont forget that the Macula in Vitalis' blood was linked to the blood of the original carrier which means he was only limited to the treshold that Hugo unlocks and can only get stronger when Hugo is stronger, if he kills off Hugo or gets rid off him he won't move on and his Macula will be pretty much pointless

[gentle stratus]

Don't take that as an attack on your arguments. We are both just making theories about what happened really, in the end of the day we both know it was a game with a story line that was written by another human just like us.

[formal yew]

That's objetively wrong. Despite being limited to Hugo's current threshold, Vitalis reached far more dangerous and destructive levels of power in just a few months with the Macula.
I mean, just look at his entire moveset in the final fight... Hugo was literally fighting back with small rat tornados while Vitalis atacks could literally wipe out the entire place.

That's what he got in just a few months. If he went on to get stronger and stronger he would quickly become a world ending threat.

Even in Requiem, Hugo's level of power is still nowhere near enough to rival Vitalis. Hugo only won the fight because Amicia was there. One on one, Vitalis against Hugo in his max power, Vitalis would still be more dangerous. (Final threshold Hugo doesn't count as his explosion is literally a one time thing that kills him off too).

[gentle stratus]

Vitalis cannot get stronger without Hugo. He himself said that when Hugo reaches the next treshold he shall reach it with him, if he could reach it himself he wouldn't have to use Hugo and force him to kill soldiers and in the end where Nicholas got angry and screamed "WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR, CROSS THE TRESHOLD, CARRIER" by expecting him to cross it by killing his sister since she was someone he loved and would be a lot more impactful to kill. Vitalis was using alchemy modofied rats, again it wasnt natural and even the guards knew it. If his intention was to simply take the Macula and modify it to his liking so that HE can be the strongest thats not what thr Macula wants. The Macula wants to be in charge also, Hugo was still more powerful than Vitalis in Requiem, we just didn't see him use his powers as much because it hurts him to do so but when he completely lost it as we saw in chapter 10 and 12 he literally destroyed a entire castle in chapter 10 in thr matter of 3 seconds and filled it up with millions of rats like a whole ocean of rats, and in chapter 12 where he again lost it and called on to anlther few millions of rats to destroy the entire place, literally a whole piece of the land a WHOLE PIECE of the land was missing, leaving a giant hole. Hugo could use as much rats as he wanted and wasnt limited to any rat count while Vitalis literally had to make his own rats, he didnt have the ability to create them, he would capture black macula rats and modify them, Why? Because he is not Hugo and cant make them come out whenever he wants from anywhere

[formal yew]

Nicholas says that Vitalis would eventually become the only Carrier, meaning that Vitalis only needs Hugo to cross the thresholds in order to expand the potencial, and after that is done he can simply kill Hugo and be the only one.

Also, there's no way to confirm or deny that the modified rats of Vitalis couldn't simply procreate. If it is all about genetics then it would be very much possible to do so. Therefore he too could have endless rats.

About Hugo destroying the castle, Vitalis could do the same and worse. As I said, just look at his moveset in the final fight. You also have to realise that the most destructive moments of Hugo happened during the late afternoon or at night, because naturally that's only when his rats can prosper. Vitalis isn't limited by that, he reigns wether its day or night.

You say that he had to capture to rats because unlike Hugo he couldn't make them come out of nowhere. Again, Vitalis wasn't capturing them to "expand" the rat army, he only caught up some in order to do the experiments and raise a stronger rat army than Hugo's. We can tie this to my previous argument. Modify the rats first and let them procreate later. Vitalis would now have a stronger rat army, with a better move set and also a seemingly limitless potencial.

[gentle stratus]

yeah, just how useful would the first treshold be, this was the first and easiest treshold and if they get rid off Hugo after that they are stuck with that treshold. Also they cannot procreate the rats, these are not just animals, they are literally a curse. Also if Vitalis's rats were only experimental he wouldn't need to make millions of them as he did, he didn't even experiment with them he literally made the exact same copy of them and knew exactly what he needed. Again, Vitalis was not capable of what the Macula wanted, he was abusing the powers and making rats of his own, and worst of all, he was a threat to the Macula's chosen carrier because he wanted to kill him. Also Vitalis is FAR FARRRR AWAY from being as close as strong as Hugo was, Hugo literally took out entire cities for seconds

all he had to do is to let the Macula control him for a split second and he will bring down whole cities to the ground level

Vitalis was a a complete joke in comparession to Hugo

his moveset was slow and easily dodgable, also the only reason he had advantage in that battle is cause he would continiously drop light sources on top of Hugo's rats cause this whole thing was a trap, he wasn't playing fair. If he didn't have soldiers to drop down braziers then his powers would be meh, one tornado and he would be as good as dead without his dsoldiers giving him light

[formal yew]

1. Even with just the first threshold, at that time Vitalis was already stronger.

2. They can procreate. Despite this story being having highly fantasy elements, the rats are still animals, it just happens that they are affected by the fantasy stuff. They eat, they create nests, they spread desease, etc...

3. You missunderstood again. I didn't say Vitalis rats were only experimental, only that he ones he caugh up were. You are confusing the rats of his army with the rats of his experiments. And yes, he knew what he needed right away, which was to remove the fear of light from the rats because it's the biggest weakness afterall. Everyone knew that.

4. Yes and no. Yes, Hugo's rats took out entire cities, but no, he wasn't the one doing it. Hugo's most destructive moments happen when he is not in charge or severely distressed and vulnerable. Vitalis is more composed and I'm pretty sure he could take out entire cities in seconds aswell.

5. You are taking it from a gameplay perspective. Obviously they had to make his moveset dodgeable, but realisticaly it would kill everyone there in seconds.

6. Again, ties to my previous argument. Vitalis' army is stronger because he isn't limited by the light. The final fight in Innocence happened inside the cathedral and at night. That's the only reason Hugo's rats had a chance in the first place. Any other place in the world during the day and Vitalis would wipe him out.

7. You talk about Vitalis getting aid from the soldiers not being fair but same goes for Amicia attacking the rat tornados with ignifer. The argument goes both ways...

8. In Requiem Hugo shows no impressive feats of destruction oy his own. Enphasis on "his own". When he destroys the cities he is always a vulnerable angry kid pushing himself to his limits. Vitalis casually does the same thing but with no consequences. In fact, Hugo appears weaker in Requiem, since he can no longer walk among rats and also can't do rat tornados anymore. He seemed to have completely lost control and now has to resort pushing himself

[gentle stratus]

when Hugo was not in charge. Like i said he was a little child easily deceivable and making him easy to manipulate, rats would not procreate anymore, now they are afraid of darkness and only stay in the light. Macula rats come out from these giant Nebula eggs that are filled up with rats, but the thing is his rats are modified, they cannot in any way procreate they are no longer the Macula's original rats. Also the reason why he had a hard time controlling them is because the next tresholds were getting only more and more unstable which was the Macula's intention, take control of Hugo and use him as a weappon, Vitalis did the opposite, he modified the Macula's rats to control them for his own benefit

also the thing about Vitalis beating Hugo at day is the same as saying Hugo is beating Vitalis at night. the day is 12 hours and the night is 12 hours but you forget that Hugo's last treshold could release The Sun Killer. The Nebula which suffocates its enemies and stops all sunlight allowing the rats to spread uncontrollably

[formal yew]

Vitalis rats made giants nests in the cathedral, they can absolutely proceate.
It doesn't make sense that only Hugo's rats can procreate. Vitalis' rats are still animals of nature, just happens that they are now genetically diferent and therefore it could create a new type of rats.

About the Sun Killer, as I said before it is a one time thing. A suicide move just to reach a tie doesn't equal to being stronger.

You are probably thinking that the rats are exclusively living because of the Macula. They aren't. They are animals just like any other, but the Macula has power over them.

It could be anything else. Dogs, cats, birds, whatever. Rats are still normal animals and behave like so when they aren't being influenced.

[gentle stratus]

it makes perfect sense for Hugo's rats to be capable to procreate because the Macula was in charge of that proccess while Vitalis' rats are not even the Macula's creation. And no. The rats weren't just animals. If they were they wouldnt be able to burn from the light like a piece of paper. Even if that was a effect of the game that they burn it was clear that these rats are not normal and they are not just animals. they were Hull on the inside, had no blood no organs no nothing, when they burn away from the light all that was left on the ground was ashesh, you could say thats just an effect but why both make an effect for turning into ashesh when they get close to light sources? animals dont turn into ashesh when they die, and the rats were fading away

this discussion continues for nearly 3 hours since 9:22 am and now it is 12:31 am im honestly sick of it already

i drop it from here on

[formal yew]

Its a gameplay aspect....
Also, you know the rats that the Inquisition caught up, Hugo's rats yeah? They were being dissected in the Inquisition's labs... they have organs, they have bodies...

[formal yew]

Sure, I'm bored aswell

[gentle stratus]

its a pointless discussion that starts going in loops. Over and over again

this could literally go forever by looping each other again and again

[formal yew]

Sure

[jagged whale]

rat logic

:D

[burnt scroll]

I’m a little late to the convo but here’s my take:

If you think about yourself or your siblings, do you sometimes hate yourself? Do you sometimes hate your siblings? Do you ever wanna die just a little? Or feel like you could kill your sister bc X Y Z even for just a moment?

Now think of a close family friend who you’ve known your whole life but you don’t REALLY know and all you have are fond memories of them.

My thought is the servants weren’t touched bc they were apart of Hugo’s idea of HOME. They were purely loved and almost objects in a set stage. Kind of like how his bedroom was also fully untouched. At Hugo’s core, it’s what his little kid mind saw as his safe place. His true home was untouched. (His room that he was pretty much in all the time and the servants that cared for him.)

But I even though he loves his sister, deep down there’s darker negative feelings towards her. Plus in requiem he’s constantly saying how it’s all his fault or whatever. He knows it’s his curse that’s ruining the world and maybe thinks it’d probs be better if the rats ate their whole bloodline.

Also for the side mention of how Hugo was so strong in the Vitalis fight but then weak again in Requiem - I think of it like Adrenaline. Vitalis mentally and physically tortured Hugo for a month to unlock his powers for himself. During the fight, Hugo was pumped up and I think his power’s connection to Vitalis’ strengthened his own control and abilities. After Vitalis died though, I think even though the powers themselves remained unlocked, Hugo had difficulty remembering how to fully control them in the same way. (Think of PTSD, you go through a traumatic event and your brain blacks out parts of it.)

But in requiem, at the end, he did regain that level of control.

Of course, at the end of the day it was probs all just for good gameplay and plotholes are just plotholes but…🤷🏻‍♀️

[kind prism]

The rats do eat dead people. In innocence there’s a level where there’s two guards and you can kill them to lure rats away from a chest or something