#Self-locking key logic

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

signal mango
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Dovetailing off of the new Mire key logic, is there any reason we can't change the logic for Harmless Hellway, PoD BK Chest, TR BK Chest, and GT Map Chest to say "If this contains a small key, there are no logical requirements to access it"?

In the case of PoD and TR, it would only affect keysanity (or rather, all wild small key modes), but for GT it could be interesting even in standard dungeon items modes allowing a small key in map chest and a vanilla small key in pre-Moldorm in the same seed.

robust root
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Was mire key logic changed in the latest update? Or is this for the next update?

signal mango
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See the discussion in the Main Tournament discord, but yes, Mire key logic was updated in the current release so that if the BK is left side the 3rd small key can be anywhere. (Relevantly, it can be in the Big Chest or on the boss or, in the case of keysanity, behind an item in one of those two locations.)

robust root
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I remember this bug being found by Espeon two years ago. It has pretty big implications for HMG and mire routing in general. Are there any other logic changes in v31.1 not announced?

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I didn't see any mention of logic changes in the release notes

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How does this impact HMG access to hera? You always need three mire keys for swamp, but for hera (unlocking big key door or flooding swamp middle) you only need access to the firelocked mire rooms. Can Hera be accessible with only two mire keys if the big key is firelocked?

wooden pebble
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That was the only logic change. It should only affect the compass and big key chests.

I think I understand what you're getting at Drossy but the logic for chests like harmless hellway has to have some requirements in the VT rando basically on account of how the world model works where it's basically assuming you're standing at the dungeon entrance, doing everything possible before getting the item at that location.

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If we say there's no logical requirements then it would assume you have that key as soon as you enter the dungeon. But what we would like to say and what I think you're suggesting is, if this is the case then we can functionally consider that key door as not existing and that dungeon as having one less key, then relax some other placement constraints elsewhere. But that's harder to do with how the VT model works

signal mango
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Thanks cassidy. Yes, you're correct in what I was suggesting. I guess you'd then need to add logic saying, like, "3 keys, or 2 keys plus small key in Harmless Hellway" in a lot of places and that would get pretty convoluted.

wooden pebble
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Gotcha, yeah. I agree for sure. I know it's getting a little stale by now but we'll need v32 or something else which can kind of know where key doors are rather than assigning basically static key counts to individual locations to handle situations like this cleanly and efficiently. But it would be much better

stoic tide
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But having the 3-key requirement for GT-climb still is weird

wooden pebble
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Not sure what's up with that, maybe balancing for rare but extremely annoying situations where you could be forced to get a key from the top and go back down

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I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to relaxing it wherever possible though

latent bough
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without the restricted logic you can actually have a scenario where you can logically deduce that GT BK is in tile room

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if you only find 1 small key in the front checks + firebar room

signal mango
pliant mural
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I'm not sure what the intention was but I'd think it could create awkward situations where you have the GT BK but don't have a small key in hand when deciding if it's time to climb

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One key being placed on climb is fine thanks to Middle Door. if more than that were possible, you'd have to factor key usage into your basement route more delicately, I'd think.

wooden pebble
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Interesting, never looked at it like that but it makes sense. I think it was likely balance-related and I think it's possible in this specific situation that could just be better and more interesting than simply relaxing it as much as possible

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Kinda like how spiral cave in ER is considered impassable as a bunny even though it's technically not or similar rules. Not saying that's definitely true but that kind of balance is a worthwhile consideration in this situation specifically

severe coral
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It gets awkward, especially when you consider pottery, like what would be the cutoff where the artificially padded key logic is applied? Runners have to ask themselves, which pots are in logic? This is prob why this artificial rule doesn't get added in DR

latent bough
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I think the potential for an awkward seed is 1) not high enough and 2) not even that awkward probably

signal mango
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In AD you could get something really awkward like BK on Torch, 2 small keys in Mini Helma, small key in Tile Room, small key behind Ice Armos, and Flute in Map Chest. But then that's your fault for playing AD 😂

pliant mural
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Thinking about it more - if mini-helmasaur didn't require small keys, then I think you could just do the normal DM route, except know that if you still have 0 or 1 chest keys after doing torch + stalfos + hope room, you should rush tile room -> fire snake -> rando room (map chest is skipped).

latent bough
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I would do Hope->Rando Rush I think

latent bough
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With Hope->Rando you will know when you open firesnake chest if tile room is a guaranteed big key, and if it isn't you will have a guaranteed small key to continue to rando room

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Rando rush also works, but if you get 0 keys by the time you reach stalfos room you have to mirror and go right cause you wont be able to reach rando room

pliant mural
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Yeah that's true. That sounds better.

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Then if you still don't have BK after rando room you do tile room immediately right?

latent bough
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yeah if ive found 1 or 0 small keys

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well if you find 0, then you dont even get to rando room

pliant mural
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right yeah

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interesting. I'll have to keep this in mind if this is something that gets changed in v32