Actually, here's something I wondered when watching old F1 and even playing F1 Challenge. Without DRS zones, without ERS, without all these modes made for overtaking, how did old F1 cars overtake each other?
#Motorsports
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granite tangle
In other news Ferrari fans, and especially Leclerc fans that must have started watching f1 yesterday, are REALLY mad at the FIA, Mercedes and possibly RB being on it as well
The truth is
It’s against the spirit of the regulations per se, but those engines can pass the FIA tests, hence cheating can’t be proven
Now to criticize this as a fan of the sport, I’d say you would be free to
But as a Ferrari fan in particular…
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Didn't Ferrari cheat with their engines in 2019, hence they became so slow in 2020?
granite tangle
And to say the FIA is against Ferrari…
granite tangle
Didn't Ferrari cheat with their engines in 2019, hence they became so slow in 20...
If it was only 2019 we’d be living in 2500 now. If we had a penny for every Ferrari genius rule interpretation or “cheating” as the Ferrari fans call it when it’s other teams doing it, we’d be millionaires
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Interesting, so Ferrari cheats alot with their engines?
I wonder why they're always so slow anyway..
I mean if you ask me, all F1 cars should have equal engines built down to their exact bolt size as FIA demands it.
Aero and such, that is where genius and creativity is more okay to see.
granite tangle
Since the dawn of time they’ve been clever with many things, though Maranello has stopped trying the last 5 years
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Guess they realized that regardless of how clever they are, they'll forever remain cursed regardless. So they stopped trying.
granite tangle
I mean if you ask me, all F1 cars should have equal engines built down to their ...
I disagree. Why shouldn’t the best manufacturer of everything be rewarded. If anything every team with a car brand backing should have their own engine in my opinion, the factory should show their skill on making the best engine, not an equal one
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I disagree. Why shouldn’t the best manufacturer of everything be rewarded. If an...
Well that is the issue, because the moment you leave it up to them, they cheat.
Hence you can barely compare the engines when they're never truly on equal footing.
granite tangle
They never were supposed to be, I mean back in the days teams had complete freedom on being able to run more cylinders or turbos
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It would be like us both writing a code for a command, but you're writing using AI when I am writing on my own. Hence I end up losing without knowing what the true equal ground was.
granite tangle
The more you try to regulate engines to make them all the same, THATS WHEN teams will cheat for the advantage
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They never were supposed to be, I mean back in the days teams had complete freed...
Yeah. Not that it worked anyway.
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The more you try to regulate engines to make them all the same, THATS WHEN teams...
So teams should be free to use whatever engines they want, so long as it meets a certain weight, torque, power and p/w ratio limit?
granite tangle
F2 is supposed to be a spec series with equal or close to equal cars and engines
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I'm just saying, F1 isn't sustainable for the drivers like this.
So many potential talents got left for nothing with bad cars.
No fault of their own, just what seat being available.
You can't be in F1 unless you're a prodigy or extremely lucky.
Were Max picked up by Ferrari, he'd become the next Leclerc.
granite tangle
F1 is the pinnacle of innovation and driver
You can’t win without both or at least a balance of
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It's the pinnacle of innovation, not driver.
You can put any clown in the RB19 and they'd still win the same as Max did.
granite tangle
I mean you say that but there’s no sport with a paddock filled with f1 level drivers
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And yet F1 itself has barely any F1 level drivers anyway.
granite tangle
You can put any clown in the RB19 and they'd still win the same as Max did.
You put any other driver not named Lewis Hamilton on the RB19 and he struggles to win half as much, let alone 19 races and 10 in a row
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And so many got shafted by the cars they wre given anyway.
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You put any other driver not named Lewis Hamilton on the RB19 and he struggles t...
I disagree.
granite tangle
Well you’re wrong lol
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Look at Leclerc. He's a clown as far as his stats go.
And yet he's supposedly an amazing driver.
granite tangle
Leclerc showed his championship inexperience well in 2022 where when he had the car he struggled, and then Ferrari failed to help him post summer
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We know this, but how would anyone else outside of the immediate sphere of F1?
granite tangle
It’s foolish to think Leclerc can just jump on championship worthy machinery and immediately dominate
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And yet Max did it seems.
He was nowhere for most of his career purely because of the cars he was given.
Soon as he got the car he needed, he dominated.
granite tangle
Max barely won in 2021, had to put together very consistent results in 2022 to win from Ferrari and Ferrari had to choke and then put up 2023 after 2 years of championship battle experience
Leclerc doesn’t even have half a season of championship pressure under his belt
Even if you end up losing a championship it’s experience
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So he'll never be a WDC by this rate then.
granite tangle
Lando Norris without 2024 does not manage to come back in win 2025 from Oscar, Max or whoever
He’d have given up in the middle of the season being 40 points behind
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This is what pisses me off.
Supposedly you need skill, talent, experience and the team needed to be WDC.
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While Oscar showed his inexperience
First WDC fight for the guy, lost 108 points lead
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Yet so many instances of this not being the case.
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First WDC fight for the guy, lost 108 points lead
And yet lando is called the bottler.
Regardless, it makes no sense.
Look at Lewis Hamilton
He was nearly WDC on his debut season.
How would you explain that? Was he somehow given godly capablities since birth?
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Lewis debut season is an absolute exception to almost every rule in motorsport
A first season in a good car, full of controversy and full team trust support and backing on him
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Also Lewis came in quite late into f1 compared to these new drivers
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It makes no difference anyway.
But even in spite of this, Lewis did what he did, and he got WDC on his second ever season.
I genuinely don't understand F1 and I don't think I ever will.
granite tangle
He was very lucky and good enough at the same time to be picked by McLaren way way before his debut
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It's a sport of no actual equal footing. Just chance.
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Both can be true, you need to be good enough to be helped by luck
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Then what's wrong with half the grid?
Are they not good enough? or just unlucky?
Can't be the case every single season
The fact that drivers can even dominate is sign that it isn't a fair sport like this.
No wonder drivers barely change from season to season, because how is a rookie supposed to even get into F1?
Take up chance with Haas, Williams or Sauber for a garantueed ruined future?
SOmehow have direct family ties with the big teams to get an easy seat on debut?
Or waste your life at F2 only to never even get into F1?
This isn't about being good enough, it's only luck.
granite tangle
No wonder drivers barely change from season to season, because how is a rookie s...
We had 4 almost 5 rookies this year
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Indeed, only because the drivers they replaced were all shocking.
granite tangle
Shocking for F1 but the guys getting dropped by F1 always end up winning elsewhere
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And none of these rookies came into F1 by merit either
Oliver was Ferrari's baby for a long time
As was Kimi
granite tangle
Bortoletto f2 champion McLaren driver program picked up by sauber no?
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No connections to that team, not even by engine supplier
pale tinsel
McLaren released him even so he could join Sauber
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Gabi got a bad first year but a guaranteed chance at Audi
granite tangle
Even if it’s midfield that’s as good as Ferrari already no?
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Regardless, Gabriel was the only one who came into F1 by merit.
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Even if it’s midfield that’s as good as Ferrari already no?
Who knows what 2026 holds for any team.
Only teams with a chance of being consistent are Audi and Cadillac
because they weren't there before anyway.
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McLaren released him even so he could join Sauber
So disrespectful frankly.
Mclaren's driver grid is as stagnant as Aston's.
pale tinsel
So disrespectful frankly.
Not really, I'd rather say they did him a favour
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Only in hindsight.
pale tinsel
Obviously there was no space at McLaren, and they don't have a secondary team to place him in, and the F2 champion can't compete in F2 again so there's no point keeping him on the books unless you want to make him do sim work for fuck knows how long. Might as well let him go and let him find his own path, like he was trying to do anyway
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I was stupid to not realize it.
What happened to Drugovich, could have easily happened to Gabriel as well.
But it didn, and he now has a real chance of being a real competitor in F1.
This is why I shouldn't talk.
pale tinsel
Drugovich got stuck behind Alonso and the nepo baby at Aston Martin. Finally left them to go to FE
i think?
Yeah, FE with Andretti
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Which is of course, while good, never gonna be F1 is it?
He deserved his seat more than either Lance or Alonso did.
He got wasted and a future we'll likely never see happen.
pale tinsel
Nepo Baby I agree with. Alonso, nah he's still competitive
although he should really move on after this season
which hurts as an Alonso fanboy
at least 14 will be available to use in F1 games again when he does
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Alonso is good, but I don't know. I also don't think he's making wise choice with his time being in F1 anymore.
He's only at Aston for the money now. Nothing else really. His championship hopes either come in 2026, or never at all. Same with Lewis with Ferrari.
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lewis got ferrari money sure, but he went because he wanted to be in ferrari first and foremost
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If he did he wouldn't ask for such an expenisve contract anyway.
Michael developed Ferrari from ground up to be where it is, wherreas Lewis didn't come there hoping for anything.
2025 is a season he deserved to get, in order to get humbled with just how good his old team actually was.
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Michael got fuck you money too, and he demanded it even prior to ferrari
his contract clause in benetton was to be paid more than the other driver
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indeed, but his money was worth it. Whereas Lewis isn't.
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and when it was revealed michael was underpaid by briatore... Briatore had to think really fast to please him to not leave
the contract difference was 2 million to 3 million
briatore had to pay schumacher 20 million (then!) to stay
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Michael got enough fuck you money that when Jordan pissed him off cause he didn't let Ralf win the Belgian GP in 1998 he bought his contract out so Ralf wouldn't race under him again
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michael was absolutely ruthless as a competitor, you cant compare others with him
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They couldn't take risks under those conditions
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michael was absolutely ruthless as a competitor, you cant compare others with hi...
Which makes me wonder more as to why top drivers of F1 don't get banned likr they do on F2
granite tangle
banned to go where?
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When a driver dominates too much, there's no point in them being there
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so its better to watch mediocrity with variety than the best?
pale tinsel
So we rotate out the pinnacle drivers just because they're doing their job?
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So we rotate out the pinnacle drivers just because they're doing their job?
just like back when in q2 drivers where on double purples on softs just to back off before crossing the line
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so its better to watch mediocrity with variety than the best?
Isn't that a fact?
So we have some competition?
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So we rotate out the pinnacle drivers just because they're doing their job?
Exactly what happens with F2
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not really, i watch f1 because its the best of the best doing it, wherever they go, i follow
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I truly shame myself.
I speak nonsense and nothing but..
I am sorry. I won't speak with opinions again.
glacial pine
I'm sure I saw someone do the maths, and Monaco can (under fia certification) host 30 F1 cars or some stupid number. With a few more teams we'd get less stagnation I reckon
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I assume the heavy price of even being eligible by FIA to enter F1 is what prevents this. We can have more, as we have had before.
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here's a question for you folks:
Which F1 season, would you say was a shining example of every or at least nearly every team doing brilliantly? Where it felt like the pack was closer than ever and almost anyone had chances for wins and podiums?
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2025 had the pack closer than ever
theres not a single season that every team could win
maybe if you trace it down to the 50s, but then it was 1-5 exceptional drivers vs rich boy hobbyists
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I believe the best way to find an answer would be comparing how many wins and podiums every team got in every season, in order to give judgement on where it was statically the closest year. For one, it would make 1999, a rather close year actually.
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yeah but 1 or 2 teams always ruin it
you can have a hyper competitive season where theres no clear favorite, but also have 2 teams with absolutely no chance finishing 2 laps down every race
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you can have a hyper competitive season where theres no clear favorite, but also...
That is true. There will always be a backmarker, who is nowhere near the top's level. I only hope that there's a season where one such backmarker team still showed great promise in spite of this.
I suppose as you said, in the year 2025, the teams and cars were more competitive than ever.
pale tinsel
@granite tangle its been fixed now but check this years entry list
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2025_Formula_One_World_Championship&oldid=1328570807
strong kite
||AL-MERQAEDES LMAO||
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I understand but why? Weird jokes people are into.
Mercedes went from Lewis Hamilton memes to Terrorist memes
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2007 is a year that definitely scarred Alonso
He threw away his future and his chances of further success right this moment
In hindsight and comparing Lewis to any other F1 rookie, it made zero sense how Lewis was this good. Alonso literally bested the best of the best two years back to back in a car that was not top of the grid
And yet Lewis was the biggest fumble he could have ever experienced
So much so that even to this day they're not particularly friendly towards each other
I don't know if this is an exaggeration, but it definitely feels like Lewis was the biggest middle finger could have ever given to Alonso's chances of becoming an F1 legend.
I firmly believe now that Lewis simply is "that guy"
He is far beyond any F1 driver will ever be, beyond anything stats alone could say
glacial pine
Yeah Lewis is pretty good at the whole F1 thing
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if renault wasnt the best car which was it
ferrari was falling off mega hard during these years
mclarens had a great chassis but their engines blew every 2 races
renault also had that clever counter balancing spring thing inside the nosecone
which made them take bumps better than everyone else
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I guess it goes to show how even champions are often born out of luck.
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Yeah Lewis is pretty good at the whole F1 thing
Can't be understated.
By the way. I went and did the calculations with the help of AI to find a formula which would help pin point which season of F1 was the most competitive. I calculated from 2000 to 2025. Here's what I found
0- 2024: 0.444 (Most competitive)
1- 2012: 0.424
2- 2021: 0.408
3- 2008: 0.390
4- 2020: 0.386
5- 2003: 0.378
6- 2009: 0.373
7- 2013: 0.370
8- 2025: 0.362
9- 2005: 0.364
10- 2022: 0.310
11- 2017: 0.315
12- 2010: 0.320
13- 2018: 0.304
14- 2006: 0.306
15- 2004: 0.308
16- 2023: 0.291
17- 2014: 0.290
18- 2011: 0.271
19- 2015: 0.273
20- 2007: 0.269
21- 2016: 0.256
22- 2001: 0.194
23- 2002: 0.181
34- 2000: 0.171 (Least competitive)
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i guess they dont have data for 2025 but yeah
late ground effect cars have been closest than ever
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Yeah I guess it's because the point gap was much smaller between teams
And also more race winners.
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i guess alpine fell off hard this year, they were kinda competitive last year
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Competitve enough for a double podium, indeed.
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and then you had mercedes getting lapped twice in monaco because they didnt want to pit all race
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2024 was surprisingly a better year.
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mclaren wasnt as fast, redbull was also a bit slower end of year
yeah makes sense now i guess
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Indeed. And like I said, more race winners.
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it was just sauber and haas that felt way worse in 2024
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That's very true.
When I was doing the equations, the mid-field range was way worse in 2024 than 2025
But because 2024 had less point gap and more race winners, it had an affect
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it was just sauber and haas that felt way worse in 2024
To be honest I could ask it to make an equation where it takes those into account too. It's hard to make an equation which takes every aspect into account.
granite tangle
if you take all aspects then you wouldnt get anything of value data wise
there must always be a sort of bias
like
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I personally still liked 2025 better however. Primarily because of how much betteer Sauber was. Sad that Sauber gave its place to Alpine instead.
granite tangle
which season had the most variety in finishing position?
or
which season the pack was closer in delta than ever?
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That's a good thing actually. Might ask it later to do that too.
2025 and 2024 were both more than decent when it came to their podiums.
granite tangle
i expect 2025 to be very high if not no1 when it comes to delta
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2025's Mclaren ruins things frankly
It was too competitive.
Only thing saving 2025 from 2023 was the bottlings.
granite tangle
sure but i dont think theres a race this year where the mclarens lapped most of the midfield, like hamilton rosberg 1-2 style
and then you had the midfield 70% of races on each others bumpers and not overtaking because the cars are too fat and the dirty air is too shitty
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That's true, that's why the Merecedes dominance years are so far down.
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and then you had the midfield 70% of races on each others bumpers and not overta...
I do wonder if the dirty air situation improved for the ground effect era.
I assume it did.
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uh it actually worsened
2022 was mostly clean air
but they had a lot of porpoising (cars jumping up and down)
by the time that got fixed 2022 mid season
then the downfall started and the air produced by the cars became worse and worse
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but they had a lot of porpoising (cars jumping up and down)
Hmm.. we have to always make do with something
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then the downfall started and the air produced by the cars became worse and wors...
F1 is a sport where you can't have the cake and eat it too.
The cars are either good for racing, or good for qualifying.
It's probably a good thing that the 2026 cars don't have nearly as much downforce anymore, making it easier on dirty air. And no more porpoising hopefully.
granite tangle
id argue pre ground effect cars were great for a bit of both
loads of dirty air but less somehow than late ground effect
more slipstream
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It's interesting situation.
I do wonder what would happen actually if you took these exact same drivers from the current grid
And then put them into their teams' say.. 2004 equivalents. Would their performances suffer more from the cars' performances, or their way of being designed.
Older F1 cars were considerably more tail happy.
Hopefully we'll get our answers when 2026 rolls around.
There are enough races for all teams to get at least one podium or even one win, and I genuinely wanna see that.
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@severe spindle the iconic Peugeot is likely to stay with a few upgrades to modernize it
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<@383153734873645056> the iconic Peugeot is likely to stay with a few upgrades t...
I am glad to see that Peugeot isn't dropping out so soon. The car is definitely less than competitive, though that might just be because the Ferrari is so absurdly quick.
It's interesting however how this whole LMH is being treated compared to how Prototypes are normally treated
some teams come and go, and Peugeot has had extensive history in this class. But to see a mid-field team actually stick around and modernize their car, I am rather proud
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here's a simple and hopefully not silly question.
How do you say the name "Haas"?
Is it said Haas like "Paws"?
Is it said Haas like "Ass"?
I've heard the former for the British announcers and the latter for American announcer. It's an American team so the latter is correct, right? Or is it based on where Gene Haas is from and how they said his name there?
glacial pine
Haas like ass
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Fair enough. Thanks Tweetman.
By the way, I got reminded of the talk a few days ago where I said Carlos is better than Charles. I obviously take that back, but I did wonder
Almost every F1 team since 80s forward, has had a driver no.1 and driver no.2 situation going on. You get one championship worthy driver, and another great driver who isn't quite on the level of the former, but still above the rest to the point wherre they won't interrupt the no.1 driver's race to championship, but will still score regularly high and bring the team to their consctruction championship title
Almost every team on F1 right now has such a system as well, though of course the top teams are far more strict with this in order to not sabotage themselves like Red Bull or Mercedes did in a few years
Sometimes they simply have a no.1 driver that so outclasses the no.2 driver that the no.2 driver won't even need to be worried about getting in their way
But sometimes it isn't so obvious, and so teams, often top teams especially, struggle with this balance
Red Bull did with Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber
Mercedes did with Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton
McLaren did with Lewis and Alonso, and also recently with Norris and Oscar
And then it occured to me, Carlos Sainz is one of the few F1 drivers which can't really be placed in any visible spot. He is neither No.1 nor No.2. Obviously he is way too good to be driving for a backmarker team, since he'd be No.1 obviously
But in a top team like Ferrari or McLaren, he is also not quite good enough to either compete or bother the no.1 drivers
He is one of the few examples of a no.1.5 driver, where is isn't quite good enough to be championship material without the needed car, but also not slow enough to not impede with the no.1 driver
Someone said that the only correct team for him is Red Bull, where he is amazing enough to adapt to any car he drives, he'd bring in the points and even wins here and there
But also Max is the only driver that outclasses him fully, so he'd not impede his championship runs
It's kind of like Rubens Barrichelo, where he was only good as a teammate to a top driver like Michael Schumacher, otherwise the team balance would feel skewed
glacial pine
This is the sort of hierarchy I think it most likely to be shaken up by the new regs
Look at how hard Lewis fell off Vs teammates with the ground effect cars, next to outperforming almost every other teammate he'd had before that.
Maybe Sainz hasnt had the right car for him at the right time
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Maybe Sainz hasnt had the right car for him at the right time
That's quite true
But it could also lead to a different kind of hierarchy
Of course, thats always gonna be the case
Not all drivers are equal and nor are their cars
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Maybe Sainz hasnt had the right car for him at the right time
I fully believe he can be a WDC with the right car
He's a smooth operator in more ways than one
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Look at how hard Lewis fell off Vs teammates with the ground effect cars, next t...
Indeed it is quite interesting how he is so unable to adapt
Drivers like Alonso and Carlos are like the exact opposite
They're somehow good with nearly Everything they drive
Alonso has gone through like 5 different generations of F1 by now
The Minardi no vane V10 era
The Renault vane V10 era
The Mclaren/Renault vane V8 era
The Ferrari long nose V8 era
The Ferrari/McLaren Hybrid V6 era
The Alpine/Aston Martin ground effect hybrid V6 era
glacial pine
Yes well Fernando is really terrible at joining a good team so it balances out
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That's quite true
He's a balanced and adaptive driver
But he's also only been moving around so much because no team he's at is successful
Unlike every other WDC who stuck with 1 or 2 teams
Carlos always joins the teams in their best years however
If we ignore the slow Toro Rosso
The Mclaren years were good
The Ferrari years were good
And Williams only just turned good as soon as he joined
If anything Carlos is the anti-Fernando in this case
Because whereas Alonso joins every team soon as they become uncompetitive
Carlos joins them as soon as they are doing well
I can't say much about his stint at Renault however, given as I don't know much about it
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Been getting alot of 2021 abu dabi situation in my feed
Honestly the more i look at it, the less neutral i can be
I know it was only due to luck that Max won that race, but i dont think anyone is wrong for giving credit to either driver
Me personally, i have no affinity for either driver as i find both intolerable
But i am failing to see how this wasnt Lewis' title than Max' given thr fixed finale
granite tangle
Lewis cut the corner lap one and didn’t get a penalty btw
They were equal on points it was both their title but only one can win it
Terrible direction all season, if there wasn’t one would be clear of the other before the last race
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I did read some comments abouyt that, but i cant see anyone on how it was what it was. Apparntly it was lap 1 too
And Max bad some questiomable dives throughout th3 race
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They were equal on points it was both their title but only one can win it
But given how jt ended
Max never deseveed it
Neither does Lewis by extension
The race was fixed, hencr any weight and meaning is automatically lost
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Almost 2026, everyone including Lewis has let go
I dint think he ever did
2025 was nearly the same fuckery
Thwnkfylly it wasnt
granite tangle
Haha
granite tangle
thats how it always is
if you have a loophole they cant prove outright is illegal
they tell you its banned for next year in advance but you gotta endure the fuckery for the whole season
and if your team name starts with F and youre based in Maranello you might even get away with it for longer
pale tinsel
I think it's been known for a while that mercedes have got these engine regs nailed
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has it?
Well it wasn't known to me
I suppose this means the Mercedes customers also have a likier chance of being at the top?
Mercedes and McLaren most likely
Williams and Alpine, we'll have to see what they do
glacial pine
I know it was only due to luck that Max won that race, but i dont think anyone i...
I still think max could have done it if Masi hadn't fucked the whole thing up. But we'll never know
Mercedes nailed a whole era by making sure they started engine development early, seems natural they'd try and do it again
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Mercedes nailed a whole era by making sure they started engine development early...
If that is the case, I really hope things arne't too boring off the bat
glacial pine
Well if Merc have to fundamentally redesign the engine around a different test of regs, that could be a 2027 shake up
severe spindle
That's true, if FIA is gonna ban majority of their progress after 2026
To be honest it's very odd
glacial pine
Nah this happens all the time
Remember the Ferrari oil burning debacle that got sorted out behind closed doors? Then immediately the Ferrari was slow in a straight line
granite tangle
X
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Remember the Ferrari oil burning debacle that got sorted out behind closed doors...
So you believe that Mercedes PUs will lose their advantage throughout 2026?
severe spindle
https://x.com/RBR_Daily/status/2003170664170262824?s=20
Reminds me of Spygate somewhat.
granite tangle
Reminds me of Spygate somewhat.
Oh it’s kinda totally different, instead of espionage it was an employee that was let go of Mercedes, when they let you go you have a gardening leave where you have an NDA and you can’t talk about what you did there but after you get hired into another team you’re free to do anything
severe spindle
That kind of defeats the point of an NDA, but I suppose why wouldn't Red Bull grab someone like that on the fly
granite tangle
It was more like “hey I was at Mercedes and we did this trick with the compression (insert vague idea)” instead of “I have these super secret blueprints from Mercedes here you can copy them”
You’d be willing to bet that their trick to the compression ratio is different, redbull’s is probably a reverse engineered alternative
granite tangle
That kind of defeats the point of an NDA, but I suppose why wouldn't Red Bull gr...
You can’t put an NDA on someone forever unless you keep them on the payroll
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That is true. Which to be fair, I imagine Mercedes should have
Given they obviously know they make the best engines
So they cannot risk other teams learning their secrets
Let alone Red Bull, who is nearly as dominant in engine making
granite tangle
Probably should have, maybe was too costly for their liking and they got complacent thinking they couldn’t reverse engineer it in time
granite tangle
Let alone Red Bull, who is nearly as dominant in engine making
Are they though, they’ve been messing with power units for a while but making one from scratch? It’s a mystery
Remember they might make a power unit just as fast as Mercedes, but then what about the reliability
severe spindle
You're right, they're not gonna be that good
It's a big risk when new engines come by
Remember 2014 Ferrari engine which was argubaly the best of the grid, but due to poor reliability it ran at like half power for majority of the races it partook
granite tangle
We will see a lot of engine failures next year
It’s kinda always like that with completely changed engines
severe spindle
Frankly, I do look forward to that. It could be like the 1999 season, where engine failures shape the championship
during 1999, Mclaren were so close to throwing the championship away due to how bad their reliability was getting
granite tangle
Engine failures look cool, sucks if it hits your driver but the spectacle is definitely there
severe spindle
Absolutely, and it often gives a chance to the mid-field and even the backmarkers
I can see the next year's backmarkers either being strong, or being hopelessly behind
granite tangle
Yes you can easily have races where either top teams blow up or take more grid penalties for safety and opening up the grid for unlikely drivers to take podiums and wins
severe spindle
I would love to see that honestly.
Like you said, sucks for the driver and the team
But man if it's hard not to want to see Haas or Alpine or Sauber score podiums
I guess for 2026, we'll look more closely at the Mercedes PU cars first and foremost
Maybe Ferrari second, or Honda second
And then Audi and Red Bull
glacial pine
So you believe that Mercedes PUs will lose their advantage throughout 2026?
It isn't impossible. IF the altered compression ratios are worth a lot of pace
severe spindle
Hmm
Fair enough then. That'd be good to see frankly
granite tangle
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Eyyy, I was hoping they'd do that this year. I am glad Alonso is actually part of it this year too. He's been suspiciously absent from most of the 2025 grill the grid stuff
I mean I guess he just doesn't care too much about these publicity stuff givenhe's already so well known
Love how he was given a cane
glacial pine
I love thee every year
severe spindle
You know something i've noticed that is quite different in F1 compared to NASCAR?
People say F1 is riddled with nepotism, but honestly, that is nothing compared to NASCAR
In NASCAR, it'd be practically unheard of for a former driver's son to join under his father's name and race under similar teams, especially if their father was already successful so as to pave the road for their success
In F1, so few cases of the drivers' sons ever coming into F1, or worse, actually being successful
it's usually one or the other
Michael Schumacher was great, therefore Mick Schumacher was bad
Jos Verstappen was mediocre at best, therefore Max Verstappen is amazing
Juan Pablo Montoya was great, therefore Sebastain Montoya cannot even get out of F2
Mick Doohan is Australia's pride and joy in Moto GP, therefore Jack Doohan is hopeless in any form of open wheel racing
F1 does well to show us how legitimate it is. You can be the son of whoever you wanna be, and it won't make a difference how you yourself will be judged
Man, F2 must be confusing to try and watch
When so many cars don't support any uniform livery
Like how would anyone be able to tell that that Goethe's MP isn't a Campos lol
severe spindle
"10 second penalty for Esteban Ocon"?
No
more like
"Death penalty for Esteban Ocon"
severe spindle
here's a question
Would teams like McLaren or Aston Martin even continue to exist after Lando Norris and Lance Stroll leave them?
Cause frankly, given how the teams have no real signs of them not being part of what makes them up, I don't know if they'll even exist afterwards
Especially Aston Martin
F1 games' driver moves often feel random, hence why I cannot often place myself in any seat realistically
Part of why I chose Haas is because the other teams wouldn't let go of their drivers anyhow
pale tinsel
Would teams like McLaren or Aston Martin even continue to exist after Lando Norr...
yes easily. McLaren has been around for years and will continue to be so unless something catastrophic happens
and AMR will stay around even if stroll and the nepo baby leave the team. aramco and honda i think have invested in so they can take over, the actual asron martin team isn't even involved with the f1 team, they sold their shares to saudi
severe spindle
This is what I am saying
They aren't anything without Lance
And with Lewerance
It doesn't matter whether if they are around or not, because if they aren't, the team will cease to be Aston Martin
Out of all the teams currently, AMR is the one I can most easily see being rebranded once again
severe spindle
yes easily. McLaren has been around for years and will continue to be so unless ...
McLaren of before is unrelated to McLaren of now
They have changed their identity various times and been very different times various times
And the only reason McLaren gained some speed as of recent was ever since Lando's father's funding to the team, which is why he is their no.1 driver
McLaren could probably still keep their name even if Lando stops racing for them, but Aston Martin? Nah I don't see that happening
Especially since I hear Lewerance is selling his shares as well
So it's more than likely that the team will change to "Aramco F1 team" altogether
Aston Martin has no relation to the F1 team, even less so now that they don't use Mercedes engines
granite tangle
Would teams like McLaren or Aston Martin even continue to exist after Lando Norr...
mclaren stayed in f1 way before "norris" came in to "save" them (his funding did help but not to a groundbreaking extent) when they really sucked
theyre not leaving
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I don't mean they'll leave, with McLaren
I mean they'll cease to be "This" McLaren that they are right now
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aston now god knows, they used to be a sponsor for redbull, moved to their own team and lawrence owns them
if lance leaves is lawrence staying? and if the big boss leaves does aston stay? no idea
severe spindle
That is the thought I wondered
Every F1 team has enough leverage to stay even if their bosses and drivers go
Aston.. I don't think it does
Aston/Racing Point/Force India's thing was always trying to copy off of others to see where they can make up the loss of money
However, recently with Aston they're trying to actually be serious
However, it isn't paying off quickkly enough, so it's make or break for 2026 for them
I frankly am a firm believer that if Lance leaves the team, so will papa Stroll
And therefore, the Aston brand will also cease to exist
And it'll just become Aramco F1 team
God knows Aramco has way more money to pay than Aston ever did to fund the team
Or maybe I am just being cynical
I will believe it that Aston are actually serious when Lance leaves the team
But I can't see it happening, not right now anyway
Especially when you consider this team's whole thing is the fact that they've been rebranded more than any other team on the grid
Jordan GP -> Midlands Racing -> Spyker F1 -> Force India -> Racing Point -> Aston Martin
They're survivors, but not winners
severe spindle
ngl it pisses me off as well
F1 goes to these V6s, Hybrids, ELectrics, under the guise of CO2 emissions and whatnot
And then has the logistics which would make any person with a brain cry
I don't really see what it even has to do with the actual normal automotive
None of the technology from F1 transfers to everyday cars anymore
So it's all just them pulling a wool over our eyes
granite tangle
X
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It's a good looking livery
And I guess Toto finally got Max to sign his contract, just not for the F1 seat.
lofty mirage
To understand your enemy, you have to be your enemy
granite tangle
X
granite tangle
X
severe spindle
https://x.com/autosport/status/2003880854121238951?s=20
This mean breathes racing I swear
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https://x.com/f1bigdata/status/2003882555393667181?s=46
this will be interesting theb
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Its very interesting looking back on the history of McLaren
How they went from the small back marker underdog bright orange custoner outfit
To the serious Marlboro and Silver period of success acting as Mercedes' works team
And now back to orange, both as a solid midfield team and now as an upper team in the standings
McLaren's papaya shtick and very open media nature would not sit with how dead face and competitive they used to be
What a team honestly, its quite an admirable team
pale tinsel
Ron Dennis used to employ people to wash the stones in his garden so they wouldn't get dusty
thats how corporate McLaren used to be
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Thats honestly crazy
That that's the sort of team that used to be the former identity of the current meme based team
McLaren right now appeals especially to young folks
McLaren of back then instructed its drivers to get soldier haircuts
pale tinsel
he offered a million dollars (or pounds don't remember) to buy the rights to David Coulthards and Mika Hakkinens helmets so he can make them corporate too, they both rejected
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I remember that actually yeah
David spoke on this, and he said how Ron never really understood the character of F1
He ran his team like Clockwork, and almost always got results
And would.have gotten more frankly if it wasn't for Mercedes reliability issues
2002 and 2003 were definitely seasons which could have been theirs
Honestly hard to argue with the results that McLaren were able to achieve
lofty mirage
https://x.com/autosport/status/2003880854121238951?s=20
Why is he op
They gotta nerf him
keen pond
what's the autosport spoof account called again? they had some funny tweets
glacial pine
Auto Spork
granite tangle
Merry Christmas Motorsports Forum
severe spindle
pfft
if anyone is gonna cosplay Santa, it'd be Zak Brown
granite tangle
X
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Not too big of a change
strong kite
granite tangle
X
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Not sure if I get the joke
granite tangle
It’s the how’s the job search going joke but Christmas instead
Basically how could he ever bring someone over for Christmas if he’s watching f1 all the time
severe spindle
Ahhh, now I understand. Fair enough, I hadn't seen this version of the joke before
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You know, I just came to a realization
We all love the fact that Carlos Sainz Jr. was able to drag Williams into their first podiums in such a long time, and how he astounded everyone despite his first half of 2025 performance being quite unlucky, and also how he indirectly stuck it to Ferrari by getting podiums before his replacement did
However, in spite of this, where does this leave Albon? Because he's been Williams' no.1 driver for quite sometime, and he has been better than his teammates on average. Which isn't of course saying much, given his teammates were Latifi, Sargent and Colapinto.
But now, Sainz has kind of stolen all the spotlight on Williams all to himself, and while Alex scored more points for the team during the season, Sainz' highs were considerably higher.
Do you think Alex's seat and status as no.1 driver is now in danger?
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<@883063680302985236> seen latest news?
no real source from what ive seen
GP has implied he and max go together so idk
if aston can target him with a higher up position + bring verstappen assuming 2026 aston is good then its likely
otherwise i dont know
strong kite
Why did I think I was seeing an edited photo where Sergio Perez was bald💀
severe spindle
if aston can target him with a higher up position + bring verstappen assuming 20...
Aston really wants to become Red Bull 2.0 in more ways than one
severe spindle
Why did I think I was seeing an edited photo where Sergio Perez was bald💀
Pffft
Mandella effect
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I don't like.how F1 games take advantage of the special liveries to use them as FOMO
granite tangle
yeah me neither
but alas
im a victim
and sat in the coal mines of rammer lobbies to get all of them
severe spindle
There's a difference however
You have a will of steel
I've practically given up over succeeding...
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Something has just occurred to me
2026 will be one of the first seasons for quite sometime where we have quite a few champions on the grid
- Fernando Alonso
- Lewis Hamilton
- Max Verstappen
- Lando Norris
Not as legendary as 2011 of course, where we had 6 Champions on the grid
2021 had 4 as well, it could have been 5 in 2022 but Raikonnen had left by then.
granite tangle
Did 2012 have less champions than 2011, or was it the same
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I believe the same, since I believe Michael Schumacher raced from 2010 to 2012 if I am not mistaken.
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To be honest, for someone who was so firm on his retirement, he was quite excited to be back behind a new generation of Formula 1 cars.
granite tangle
And I remember that Vettel won both times so the count couldn’t have increased
Wondered if anyone had left
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Yeah since Vettel won again, the number of different champions didn't increase.
granite tangle
Michael came back relaxed and with his dreams fulfilled to help a midfield team flow into the world of F1
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The number technically increased when Rosberg won his title in 2016, but he left right after that, so there were no more champions on the grid for 2017.
granite tangle
People loved it and Mercedes clearly used his experience to do great things later on
So yeah Michael came back and he knew he wouldn’t win, he didn’t have any pressure whatsoever, hopped in a new car and had fun
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I am not entirely certain if his experience truly shaped how dominant Mercedes would go on to be, but it couldn't have been without effect either. People had speculations that Vettel would do the same for Audi in 2026.
granite tangle
I’m sure Schumacher didn’t teach them how to build a car
A driver can’t do that
And especially not a car as dominant as 2014 Mercedes
severe spindle
So yeah Michael came back and he knew he wouldn’t win, he didn’t have any pressu...
I believe he also realized he had no chance at winning, and given he was already the most dominant F1 driver by that point, he didn't mind not being competitive either. Though as Rosberg said, if Michael thought he had a chance at winning, he'd use every dirty tactic in the book to make it happen.
granite tangle
But the culture of the trackside crew, and relations within the team, we know Michael was number 1 at that
Mechanics from Ferrari have gone and said that if back then Michael told them to jump from a roof they would
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That is true, given how Ferrari's dominance from 1999 to 2004 came at the hands of his particular efforts in building the team.
granite tangle
When you dive deep into it Michael was one of a kind
He would go to maranello and he knew every person there by name
And spent time to great each and every one of them from cleaners to the top of the branch without discriminating
severe spindle
There is a reason why he is viewed in such a way, no doubt. He wasn't the kind of driver you could just say "He is a good driver"
He was the kind of driver who would both race immensely well, put pressure on all drivers given the generation he began racing with was used to this kind of pressure
And also build whatever team he joined around him to the point where WDCs and WCCs were both possible and more than achievable.
I don't think F1 has had many drivers who were able to form the teams like Michael did.
granite tangle
We cannot understate that he was a dirty driver by any means
But out of the car I think he was loved by everyone so much you can’t doubt he was a great personality to have in your team
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And spent time to great each and every one of them from cleaners to the top of t...
And it helped immensely at Ferrari's CEO at the time, Luca Di Montezemelo, was himself a Racing Driver, a direct colleague and pupil of the late Enzo Ferrari, and knew to trust Michael with forming Ferrari in such a way.
Ferrari had many great drivers both before, during and afteer Michael's period
But none had the trust of Maranello quite as well as Michael did
granite tangle
Yes even to this day he has nothing but praise for Michael and what he did for Ferrari
There’s a reason when Michael won the celebrations were one of a kind
Every single member of that team was overwhelmed with joy you could feel it through the screen
That’s why it was so magical to me as a kid to watch him in that red car
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Absolutely, and his work had such a lasting effect that allowed the team to secure titles during 2007 and 2008 as well, even if luck did play a factor to a degree, both in their favor and agasint it
Sadly, it seems like Ferrari was just never quite the same after that
I don't know if it's because Ferrari themselves have worsened, or the other teams have just done such an amazing job at catching up
granite tangle
Ferrari needs a Schumacher to get brought back to greatness and dominance
But that type of driver only comes once in a generation or even less..
And for them to risk their peak and join Ferrari, even less likely
severe spindle
One thing that needs to be noted that people like John Todt and Ross Brawn were with Ferrari at the time, amazingly talented people who Michael would work immensely well with to develop Ferrari
Like I said, many great drivers have come to Ferrari since then
Vettel tried his damn hardest to make another Schumacher for Ferrari
But it seems like even if the driver is there, Ferrari itself isn't intrested in becoming that dominant anymore
Maybe they just don't care, and just reap the benefits of selling merch and the prize money for even showing up
So long as they're not dead last in the Team standings, it isn't significant to them to win
severe spindle
And for them to risk their peak and join Ferrari, even less likely
and those who have joined them are sadly suffering under their lack of care
granite tangle
you could say that the drinks company has more ferrari culture than the ferrari of now has left
but even for them the sun is setting
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I'd argue drivers like Alonso, Massa, Vettel, Charles and Lewis could definitely bring them back to that level of glory
But if Ferrari doesn't want it, then they can only do so much
granite tangle
to have that long lasting dominance, 5 titles! No one like them
severe spindle
We end up with years like 2010 and 2012
granite tangle
I'd argue drivers like Alonso, Massa, Vettel, Charles and Lewis could definitely...
they are all all time greats, maybe not charles yet but im sure he will be. But none of them have managed to quite light that fire under the prancing horse
closest id say is charles, you can feel it in the air when he delivers a sensational drive for them
but its not consistent, it happens some times, but not all the time
severe spindle
you could say that the drinks company has more ferrari culture than the ferrari ...
That is quite true
Red Bull was a team that nobody took seriously upon their rebrand from Jaguar. And rightfully so, by that point F1 teams would come and go without leaving much of an effect
Much less Jaguar
But Red Bull truly built itself up, carried the best personnel, took a risky move acquiring Toro Rosso from Minardi to further their effect. And seeing what they managed to pull off, they definitely deserved their titles and dominance. No customer team has ever done as much as Red Bull has
And the fact that a big chunk of the current F1 drivers belong to their Driver Academy shows just how stern they are
granite tangle
thats true, but also i meant culture wise
redbull is a family, a dysfunctional evil one at that, but they are one
severe spindle
That's also true, the culture of dominance or nothing
granite tangle
those guys go to war for each other
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Red Bull values its drivers but only if they can perform
and that is cruel, but that is how greatness comes to be
granite tangle
under max verstappen's banner, they will do ANYTHING to win
severe spindle
Indeed, and in alot of ways, Max mirrors exactly what Michael represented
While Max has nowhere near as much leverage at Red Bull as Michael did
The entire team would rather him do something and for them to make sure he can do it than try and play a balanced game
granite tangle
theres absolutely noone like michael, i dont think there will ever be, Michael is Michael to me.
but in the current era, i think Max is the closest to having the impact he had on his team
considerably less, but enough to spark comparisons by pretty much everyone
severe spindle
That is quite true. No matter how many stats and records get broken, no one can ever claim that Michael didn't turn F1's most disappointing team into something of a juggernaut
Indeed, it helps that just like Michael, Max has pulled off some impressive feat too
Both in and out of racing
Michael was a thorough bred racing driver
Nothing else went on his mind
And we see the same with Max
it's kind of ironic isn't it that
that Michael's competitor at the time, Jos Verstappen, trained a son that is more like Michael's son than Michael's actual son
I can imagine Mick feels immensely pressured and embaressed by this fact
granite tangle
Jos always admired michael, he knew from the time they were teammates that he wasnt THAT guy, Michael was
severe spindle
No doubt, and unlike most of Michael's teammates, he took Michael's status quite seriously
Michael has had many amazing teammates, drivers just as good as him I'd say
But Jos knew to use Michael as an example on how to make a racing driver
granite tangle
I can imagine Mick feels immensely pressured and embaressed by this fact
Michael never pressured his kids into being racing drivers, he wouldnt see less of his son for not being successful
but i cant imagine Mick being happy at all for having a terrible time in F1 and not ever getting another seat
severe spindle
It's not that Mick would feel that from his father, but rather how the media and the world views Michael
And by proxy, Mick himself
Michael himself said he wouldn't recommend his children get into motor racing
Mick did, and while his F1 stint was nothing interesting, he still is a more than decent driver
granite tangle
im sure Michael would be extra proud of what Mick achieved in that Alpine in WEC
he absolutely put that car where it didnt belong many times
severe spindle
Exactly
Mick found his rythem in another high tier racing class
Driving an F1 level car, but with fenders xd
granite tangle
i will be watching closely for him in Indy
severe spindle
Oh he's joining Indycar?
granite tangle
might even start watching the sport for him
pale tinsel
Oh he's joining Indycar?
Yeah, left Alpines hypercar program for it
granite tangle
severe spindle
Hehe, true enough. It's kind of funny, but Indycar whether it likes or not, owes alot to F1
The fact that F1 drivers come to it, means it gets even more viewership
With drivers like Mansell, Takuma Sato, Romain Grosjean, Fernando Alonso and now, Mick Schumacher
granite tangle
Yeah, left Alpines hypercar program for it
were we lurking or just chance
severe spindle
Yeah, left Alpines hypercar program for it
Ngl, while I did love him in that Alpine, I don't blame him for his choice
The Alpine would never be a winner, thanks to the broken BoP
And Alpine never seemed to even consider him for the F1 seat
Which is hilarious given he deserves the seat more than Franco does
But I suppose Mick is just trying to do as much as he can regardless of situation
Whether in F1 or out of it, he'll continue his dad's legacy of being a good racing driver
If Michael could even understand what Mick is doing, I am sure he'd not be disappointed
But back to F1, I do hope the 2026 season holds a new winner for the championship, so as to keep adding to the variety pack, bring the golden years of late 2000s back
And with 2026, it seems immensely possible, given I assume cars breaking down are gonna become a thing again on a more mass scale due to such a great change in regulations, which makes it less predictable and more interesting
if the rumors about Mercedes PUs are true, I think George Russel has a real chance this year to get his WDC.
I learned something rather funny from an F1 video analyzing Eddie Irvine's career.
It said that despite coming up only 2 points short of winning the championship in 1999, if the season worked by any point system used by F1 after that point, Eddie would have won the championship. It's rather funny when even the point systems can work in such a way
What it means is that Ferrari's domination years would have started with Eddie Irvine rather than Michael Schumacher. 1999 was such a wild season with its reliablity issues, and the fact that it had 4 race winner teams.
And nearly every team having at least one driver on podium
severe spindle
very few F1 teams I've seen change looks this frequently. it's hard to even tell these are the same team
I guess it goes to show what life is like for majority of the backmarker teams which don't have stable incomes and an established look
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Here's a question
I understand that Kevin Magnussen was a pretty decent driver in his debut
So why did he stay with Haas for so long? Did he sign a long term deal, or was Haas the only consistent seat available to him?
Cause he has only ever been part of 2 teams
severe spindle
That is tragic. I wish i hadnf heard fhis
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Ferrari's failures definitely makes their success periods seem more accidental
Michael Schumacher pulled off the impossible to make Ferrari that dominant
Cause they never even came close to replicating that level of competitiveness
I genuinely think Charlss needs to leave them to join a backmarker team
The level of competitiveness would be mostly the same
There's nothing at Ferrari for him
And there never will be at the current rate
People love to prop him up for being the 2nd most skilled driver on the grid and the golden boy of Ferrari and his sad story into F1
But he's just gonna become another Jean Alesi at the current rate
I think he realizes this too
With how badly he is treated by their own CEO and his constant frustrations getting to a breaking point in 2025
severe spindle
Folk often say F1 2024 is the worst modern F1 game
But is there a clear reason for that? They say alot of it comes down to its handling being worse
I've never played it myself so I'll rely on you guys' opinion
granite tangle
granite tangle
Folk often say F1 2024 is the worst modern F1 game
But is there a clear reason f...
The handling is closer to Mario kart than F1 23, 25 or 20
severe spindle
https://x.com/formularacers_/status/2005577301317308863?s=46
What, Audi signed Hulkenberg for only one season? Lol
severe spindle
The handling is closer to Mario kart than F1 23, 25 or 20
really? So it's unrealistic and not much punishment for mistakes?
severe spindle
https://x.com/formularacers_/status/2005577301317308863?s=46
I'll change my name if any of the driver line up for Aston changes
granite tangle
really? So it's unrealistic and not much punishment for mistakes?
And not satisfying at all to play
pale tinsel
F1 2011 lock to lock steering
severe spindle
Damn that sounds terrible
severe spindle
And not satisfying at all to play
Guess that explains some of people's problems. Would you say F1 2025 is an improvement on that?
granite tangle
a million percent
25 is the perfect successor to 23, which was the best ground effect f1 game
severe spindle
How was 2022 like?
granite tangle
literally the only bad thing about 25 is the FOMO, but like its "only" liveries i guess
granite tangle
How was 2022 like?
2015 and 2022 are considered the worst of all time XD
severe spindle
Man makes me want f1 2025 even more badly
It was 30 euros during winter sale but that's still too much
severe spindle
2015 and 2022 are considered the worst of all time XD
Holy crap, how did that happen lol
granite tangle
i dont think its gonna drop lower than 30
sucks that you guys dont get regional pricing when you 100% should
severe spindle
Yeah I probably won't be able to
We don't and we can't even buy the games
I always have to use some nonsensical loophole
I guess I could go to a game store and see what they can do
Like you said, I can download the game from a crack website but the game itself needs valid IP to be unlocked to play
Which Is impossible for me given I can't buy the game legit
A shame honestly
I do want to play a ground effect game
severe spindle
Yesh you told me about it
It needs valid IP registering which is either difficult or impossible due to its anti cheat
granite tangle
most people that claim to have denuvo game cracks put viruses and shit on the files
granite tangle
Yesh you told me about it
It needs valid IP registering which is either difficul...
some sonic fans have made progress recently into cracking denuvo but no public announcement of cracking it yet, maybe in a few months time..
severe spindle
Man..
I just wish I could get the game legit
I honestly would buy games legit if I could from steam
All I can do is rely on friends
But at least F1 2025 will have a longer shelf life than F1 2024 and 2023
Because it'll encompasses two years
All the more reason why F1 2025 is the best modern F1 game
As if any more reason was needed when freaking Haas is on the cover lol
I remember you once joked and said "F1 25 cover is all no.2 drivers"
Which is ironic given all of them ended up becoming No.1, aside from Oscar who came close
granite tangle
some covers age up badly and some age really well
this is a perfect example of the latter
especially considering that for sainz and bearman the season started terribly for them
severe spindle
Exactly
It's quite ironic
It ended up working out for all the drivers on the cover
I really hope to see great things from them 2026 onwards
severe spindle
some covers age up badly and some age really well
I think the iconic edition cover is one that aged poorly lol
Lewis joining Ferrarj was seen as hype to no end
And now it's seen as pure misery
severe spindle
Hahaha
Taht man's forever gonna be bound to his controversies
Old F1 was wild ngl
You had Eddie Shetcker go from winning WDC, to failing to quality for most races the literal next season
You had Jacques Villeneuve earn the title for Williams in 1997, only to fail to score a single point for BAR in 1999
You had Heinz Herald Frentzen go from barely able to keep up with Villeneuve in 1998 at Williams, only to come nearly runner up fro Championship in 1999
The level of consistency that F1 experiences nowadays is honestly unfounded back then where half the grid wouldn't even finish the race
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Part of the reason behind Lewis moving to Ferrari, besides the money influx and the brand recognition, was just how much Mercedes struggled from 2022 to 2024 with the new generation of F1 car design
pale tinsel
before ferrari
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And now i bet he is wishing he hadn't moved
pale tinsel
after Ferrari
before ferrari
After Ferrari
before Ferrari
After Ferrari (but before McLaren)
Common issue here
severe spindle
Indeed, and these are just the WDC and WDC material people before they joined Ferrari
Look at guys like Jean Alesi, Felipe Massa, Mika Salo, Luca Badoer, Carlos Sainz to some degree
Honestly the more I look at Ferrari's dominance era during early 2000s, the moe it feels like it was Schumacher's dominance than Ferrari's dominance
Because ever since, they've never come close
I guess it just shows you can't run a team on patorism
glacial pine
Hmmm
Mclaren just won the double with a pair of clean shaven (due to infancy) drivers... Perhaps beard makes you slow
severe spindle
Interesting theory..
Max won his 4 titles when he barely had any facial hair
And lost his 5th one due to having more facial hair
glacial pine
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here's a question
is McLaren the most successful F1 team?
By the ratio of their years in the business and their titles I mean
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Ferrari
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Ferrari has been the longest and has the most titles yes
But McLaren has had nearly as many in a much shorter period
glacial pine
Mini u R an engineer get a calculator
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100% hit rate
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Mini u R an engineer get a calculator
You're right, I am embaressment
glacial pine
Overall (counting brawn as mercedes) it's possibly Mercedes or Red Bull
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Saying Brawn was fake is kinda disrespectful to that whole team who built that car
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Yes the team is fake
The car was built by Honda
And even by the end of the season the car had fallen massively off the pace due to no actual development being possible
What Brawn achieved is true on a "technical" level, but we all know better than that
Regardless, we're not counting Brawn for obvious reasons
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I think in percentages Ferrari still takes it
if my maths is correct
take the number of constructors championships, divide by the years they've been racing then times by 100 to get the percentage
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I am doing calculations
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going by that, mclaren have had approximately 16% hit rate while Ferrari have had 21% hit rate
Red Bull in 20 years of competition have had a 30% hit rate
mercedes depends on when you count from
if you count from 1954 when they first entered to now it'll be low (but bear in mind they weren't in f1 between 1956 and 2010), and do you count brawn as mercedes?
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They pulled out of F1 after 55 after the le mans disaster and didn't return until 2010
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Ferrari: (16 WCC + 15 WDC) / 75 years = 0.37
McLaren: (10 WCC + 13 WDC) / 59 years = 0.39
Red Bull: (6 WCC + 8 WDC) / 15 years = 0.7
Mercedes-AMG: (8 WCC + 7 WDC) / 10 years = 1.5
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so we count 1954, 55, 2009 and then from 2010 onwards
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Mercedes is the most successful
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10 years for mercedes?
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and red bull would be 20 years, they start in 2005
Modern Mercedes would be from 2010
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And if I add old Mercedes, their stat will only increase]
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Modern Mercedes would be from 2010
Oh, I fucked up
Let me correct
Mercedes has a ratio of 1
As good as Brawn
Very interesting indeed
Guess it goes to show how far and few in-between Ferrari's greatness was
Always in specific periods, but never consistently
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I would say Ferrari has had 3 specific periods when they've been championship contenders or winners consistently
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It's hard to say what Ferrari is doing right now besides wasting drivers
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Between 1960 and 1965 when they won 2 constructors and 2 drivers
Late 70's (1975 to 1979) when they won 4 Constructors and 3 drivers
Schumacher and later years (1999 to 2008), 8 constructors and 6 drivers
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Yeah that is accurate
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there was also a period before 1958 when the constructors championship wasn't a thing, from the start of the championship in 1950. between those years 4 drivers championships
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Ferrari's problem always seemed to be their lack of wish to be competitive
They know they are beloved regardless of their success
And if we take into consideration that Ferrari is more than F1
They are indeed the spearheader of Motorsport as a whole
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Enzo built Ferrari like that, current management has made it so corporate
Merchandise over actual cars
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Enzo himself was no different really
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Enzo would be rolling so much in his grave he'd probably work as a power generator for the F1 cars
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You either did it his way or no way
His pride was too great to accept victory in any other way than his way
He wasted through amazing drivers more than current Ferrari does
And all because of his retarded statements like "Those who do aerodynamics cannot design engines"
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More often to death rather than them leaving broken
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Indeed, which is even more unacceptable
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That was just what was accepted way back when in F1
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John Elkann is perfectly Enzo Alike
Enzo himself also told his drivers to shut up if they ever complained
The only actual good Ferrari head there ever was was Luca Cordeo Di Montezemelo
Who made it possible for Schumacher to do what he did
Before him, the chances of a British race engineer, French team prinicapl and Japanese aero designer were zero
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It was more Schumacher, Brawn and Todt making themselves unsackable
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And even he fell into the same trap of pride
As he was the one who pushed Schumacher out of Ferrari eventually
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It was more Schumacher, Brawn and Todt making themselves unsackable
It was because Luca actually had a brain
If it was anyone else, they'd never even have a chance of being hired
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Ferrari paid big money to bring in Schumacher in 96, Schumacher got Brawn and a lot of the benneton engineers over and between the 3 of them (Todt, Brawn and Schumacher) they basically told Luca that if he got rid of one they would all go
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And they eventually all did
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But yes, you're right. Luca got it in his head *hang on, i run ferrari not you lot" and started breaking them apart
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There was one fact, Luca understood the task of making an actually competitive F1 team better than any other Ferrari CEO
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iirc, the first sign of it was signing raikonnen
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But he sadly fell into the same trap eventually anyway
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iirc, the first sign of it was signing raikonnen
And then sacking Raikkonen right after, which was quite disgusting
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santander money talks unfortunately
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Indeed, and as much as we love Alonso, we'd never have wanted him to be the one to psuh Raikkonen out of Ferrari
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Santander could use Alonso in the European and Japanese market and Felipe in the Americas, Kimi just got paid to sit at home and take up rallying for a couple years
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But honestly signing Raikkonen was quite disrespectful to begin with
He was the one who gave Schumacher heart attack after heart attack in 2002 and 2003
And Raikkonen absolutely would have bested Michael if the McLaren had any semblance of reliability
Honestly it is quite easy to see how so many F1 teams fell off
Overconfidence and taking things for granted
Williams thought he knew better so he sacked anyone who told him otherwise
McLaren Ron Dennis would get offended at anything and ran the team into the ground
And Ferrari is the prime example which has been the example since 75 years ago
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Williams and Patrick Head* they lost Adrian Newey to McLaren cause they were too stubborn
then Ron lost Newey cause he tried to take Neweys power away and make the team less reliant on him
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Ironically, Adrian Newey is an easy example to follow on why so many teams fell from greatness
When Williams listened to him, they did well
then they didn't, and they failed
When McLaren listened to him, they did well
then they didn't, and they failed
Red Bull knew better than to ever question Newey
and if Aston martin CEO Lawrence Stroll wants any future for AM, he will not question Newey either
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Which is why as much as I would have loved it, when Newey left Red Bull there were Ferrari talks but it never would have worked.
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Indeed, Adrian actually spoke on this a couple times that he would never join Ferrari
Like vettel said, everyone is a Ferrari fan
but if you're an actual F1 person who's involved in the work that goes on
You would rather die before you go to Ferrari
Or Alpine apparently since they've been speed-running Ferrari's tactics since last year too
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Do you understand how shit you have to be to be confirmed last place even before the last race of the season?
Alpine could have finished 1st and 2nd in Abu Dhabi 2025 and they still would be last in the constructors championship
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Indeed, the fight for the bottom of the leaderboards on F1 are always extremely close
Any single point even could turn the tide entirely
But Alpine.. bless Pierre's heart, truly fucked up 2025
I guess Alpine answered two very important questions in F1:
- WHat happens if you take a corner with DRS open
- What happens when you don't develop a car over a season
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Alpine could have finished 1st and 2nd in Abu Dhabi 2025 and they still would be...
Ironically, not even Minardi ever had such a gap from last to 2nd last
2025 was a very good year for the backmarker teams
Except for Alpine
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- What happens when you don't develop a car over a season
· What happens when your manufacturer doesn't invest in the team and you hire a former Team Principal that was banned for life for cheating a race win*
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· What happens when your manufacturer doesn't invest in the team and you hire a ...
Hahaha. Even better
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between Racing Bulls in 6th and Sauber in 9th there was only 22 points
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ironically, Alpine also finished the season with 22 points
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As much as I don't like Horner, I genuinely hope he comes and takes some higher up roll at Alpine
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funny how they works
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Problem with Horner is he'll want stake, so he'll have to find investors to help him buy into Alpine
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Taht much is also true
he isn't so content with just being TP anymore
He wants to be both TP and CEO
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that and he'll try and inappropriately touch any female employee that works there
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And he definitely doesn't want to ever have to answer to another senile old man like he did back in Red Bull, except this time it'd be with an actual felon
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that and he'll try and inappropriately touch any female employee that works ther...
Hahaha, its amazing when that was so relevant and changed his visage and appearnace in media so massively
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ironically, Alpine also finished the season with 22 points
Pffft, Alpine finished with the point count equal to the difference between 6th and 9th
Amazing
Honestly I think 2026 spells the end for our hopes of Alonso dominance and Ferrari resurgence
The rumors for the Mercedes and Red Bull loopholes seem far too concrete
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And he definitely doesn't want to ever have to answer to another senile old man ...
I mean, Renaults F1 return was setup by a now felon
Carlos Ghosn
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I never thought it'd be so difficult to not be a felon
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the teams full of criminals
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the teams full of criminals
No wonder they make fun of the team for being French lol
Worst part is that rhere's nothing actually French about the team
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former TP Oli Oakes suddenly quit the team earlier this year cause his brother "transferring criminal property", his brother being a director of hitech alongside oli oakes
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Worst part is that rhere's nothing actually French about the team
anymore
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Saying Brawn was fake is kinda disrespectful to that whole team who built that c...
And to Ross himself
Almost went under to keep them afloat
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last i checked, Renaults stake is about 60% now cause they sold more earlier this year
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Almost went under to keep them afloat
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former TP Oli Oakes suddenly quit the team earlier this year cause his brother "...
Oh my god, that is just horrible
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last i checked, Renaults stake is about 60% now cause they sold more earlier thi...
Unreal
May as well rename the team back to Benetton
maybe it'll bring back some of their success too
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If the benneton group were ever interested in coming back maybe
but i doubt it
even if Flavio was a former employee
and literally convicted of fraud while working for Benetton
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Cadillac?
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If so, they could buy Alpine's share
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There's been rumblings of this Panthera Team Asia which seems to be stop and start
and we can never rule out Zoran Stefanovich and Stefan GP, that fuckers been trying to get into F1 since 2010
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Panthera team? Interesting, hadn't heard of them
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and we can never rule out Zoran Stefanovich and Stefan GP, that fuckers been try...
Jesus christ, poor guys
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Not really, the guys delusional
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Are they associated with any car maker?
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not as far as I remember
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Hmm, the definitely a bit delusiional then
Modern F1 is very expensive
You'd need to do some Force India/Haas shit to stay afloat
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By the way, can I just say, I really like how Haas is the defacto Toyota and Dallara F1 team
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Indeed, they're like Ferrari's younger brother
Their chassis is designed by Dallara
They use tunnels of Toyota
And buy as manu Ferrari parts as possible
And have 200 employees compared to everyone else having a minimum of 600
Honestly the fact that Haas is still in F1 is really telling of how much FIA wants them to stay
They joined in a period where F1 teams came and went
But managed to survive just long enough for the cost cap to come to be
I really hope they achieve a podium one day
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and i hope it's ollie that gets it for them before he replaces Lewis at Ferrari eventually
poor kid
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I really don't want Ollie to go to Ferrari
I genuinely don't see anything for him besides becoming another Leclerc
i really hope some better opportunity rises before then
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and i hope it's ollie that gets it for them before he replaces Lewis at Ferrari ...
Either him or Estie bestie getting it for them would be wicked
GUYS! I FOUND A LEAK OF RED BULL'S CAR NEXT SEASON
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Guess it wasn't that funny
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Alot of F1 drivers getting into one of these as of late lol
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I am not big into FE, so could you tell me somethings about this lad?
glacial pine
He was part of the sport since race 1 until the end of last year, and spent a huge amount of that time a championship contender, even though he never quite made it. Lovely guy
A lot of the moves in that video really speak for themselves, and show a guy who could just get every possible bit of performance out of all 3 formula e cars
granite tangle
X
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He was part of the sport since race 1 until the end of last year, and spent a hu...
Ahhh
So he was always a runner up
Able to compete, but never quite enough for a title
A shame, he's a Jean Alesi then
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A lot of the moves in that video really speak for themselves, and show a guy who...
Really impressive that he is able to extract this much out of it. Has he raced in any other series too?
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https://x.com/sportscar365/status/2006020072117047616?s=20
I mean to be fair it was always gonna be difficult to have an all women crew where the skill is indeed high enough
glacial pine
Really impressive that he is able to extract this much out of it. Has he raced i...
His peak is probably 2nd in GP2 2013. But he was one of the early formula e drivers to really understand the difference of racing with electric power Vs petrol, and his final win, in Brazil Gen3, really shows it off
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I do wonder what real difference there would be
But it is impressive to adapt that quickly
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Well with formula e race winning being determined by energy recovery, which simply doesn't exist anywhere else, I imagine it's a LOT to get to grips with
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Isn't that just how F1 already does it with ERS though?
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It's been such a tiny proportion of power
The battery is 100% of the car, instead of around 10%, and in F1 it isn't your limiting factor to finishing the race
glacial pine
That's so real!
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It's a shame too
Cause it ruined my mood to play the game
One thing is for sure, i have no idea how anyone can play these games
i keep trying and I am still bad
And the worse part is, there are people who do 10 seasons of every game's career mode when I can't do anything
It's just impossible to play without ABS
And impossible to play without TC
And impossible to get a good start
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That's so real!
Doesn't helpt that my blood generally runs rather cold
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You struggle too? Glad to have some company
So it isn't just my issue
It's truly bothered me
glacial pine
I just cannot do anything since the ground effect cars
But
Alas
I have never found a competent racing game I'm could become competent at, so I blame EA
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I have never found a competent racing game I'm could become competent at, so I b...
Hehe, I just can't do it on these games. Granted F1 2020 is my first F1 game, besides F1 Challenge, but this is just ridiculous
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I just cannot do anything since the ground effect cars
I am the one troubbling in the 2020 cars lol
glacial pine
I got decent at every other one I've ever played. Either they changed the physics up MASSIVELY for the new regs (doubt) or just shittified it
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I got decent at every other one I've ever played. Either they changed the physic...
Likely the latter
I guess it also depends what you play on
I imagine it's easier to play these games on a wheel setup
Well, easier when driving without major assists
It's really difficult for me to play without ABS and TC
glacial pine
I've been on a wheel for the lot
But the last time i played on controller and it felt good was during the PS3 era
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Really?
Damn that's a while back
I hope to get a wheel one day to be able to enjoy sims better
I do like F1 2020
But I genuinely can't understand how to both race and manage everything and also drive these cars
It genuinely is amazing rhe level of multitasking real life f1 drivers do
I mean you seen how AC Evo simulated the computer on the F1 steering wheel on the SF-25
It's madness
glacial pine
Yeah there is SO much going on with F1 systems
I like hearing about how much madness is going on
Differential settings are so magic to me, so it's fascinating learning about how you can alter that around a corner
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Indeed
And even most drivers don't bother with it
Schumacher was special for adjusting brake bias mid corner
But yeah I don't understand most of these systems either and it feels like it's an active distraction to the drivers
glacial pine
It's one of the things they're up to I'm formula e all the time too, developing systems to vector torque and play with the relationship between brake discs and regen braking. It's great
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It's like playing computer games while racing
But yeah
I really wish I could be more confident playing F1 2020
But I just can't
All that happens is me getting blistering on my hands
glacial pine
The cool thing in FE was you could hear them playing with it during corners, because when you're at the track you can actually hear all the components
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Hahaha
Quite true
Given the cars aren't THAT loud
Si you can hear alot happening mechanically
glacial pine
Yeah, the way the motors seem to.... Vibrate between on and off, to create a traction control which also saves energy, is incredible
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It makes you appreciate their inner workings more so
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It's clever kit. Can't wait for next year when full traction control just becomes allowed, they're going to go so much further
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I wish TC would be allowed in F1 too
glacial pine
I disagree, I think F1 needs more difficulty more to keep the cars difficult to drive
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Then why should Formula E be easier?
glacial pine
Formula e drivers already have a large amount of vehicle engineering to do in the cockpit, the teams aren't allowed the same live data feeds as F1
Its just a different challenge
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They're not allowed the race data? Interesting
glacial pine
Battey temps, percentages, motor data, efficiency data, all of it is visible only to the drivers.
They can chat it across the radio, but battery states are strategic like pit stop timings so it all gets spoken in a code
granite tangle
I got decent at every other one I've ever played. Either they changed the physic...
honestly f1 2020 physics compared to f1 25 physics arent terribly different. The cars do feel different and theyve done a decent job at translating to you when your floor is scraping
wouldnt say shittified i think they have about the same learning curve/difficulty
im a controller warrior so im glad the f1 games arent perfectly realistic, otherwise id not be able to play them properly
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Differential settings are so magic to me, so it's fascinating learning about how...
every time i see michael's 2012 monaco pole lap where he turns in with 1 hand at the swimming pool chicane to change his differential setting im absolutely stunned how someone can just do that
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They can chat it across the radio, but battery states are strategic like pit sto...
Interesting.. that changes thr strategies completely
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im a controller warrior so im glad the f1 games arent perfectly realistic, other...
I don't know how you're so good at it
I keep doing all I can and I can barely even get as fast as you are