Tabletop RPGs

[velvet ingot]

he's got moonlight in his veins...

also i am amused at the realization that i said to both DMs "yeah my character has no information whatsoever about their bio dad, have fun with that"

[low gorge]

I think he feels weird about it! on merits of how pissed and hurt he is with Selûne, but also with Kavatina and how SHE squares with this in the relationship web...

[livid geode]

https://tenor.com/view/mummy-gif-5739155

Mattir to Kavatina

[velvet ingot]

Resh has a great dad that she has always known she shares no blood with, and Meijin got an abusive father figure instead for his mentor, oops

[livid geode]

Im sure nothing important is going on there!

[low gorge]

Kavatina occupies this space where she is simultaneously twin sister ("born" at the same time! same source!), theoretically going to become mother (supposing she ascends) and in that vein, schrodinger's goddess, friend but he doesn't remember any of it, rival (part of the Shining Six, blech!), and just stranger (he doesn't really... know her...... even if he wishes otherwise). and he feels just about everything he could possibly feel towards her

[thin spindle]

the TTRPG club I'm trying to set up now has ten prospective members

oh no

so that's two groups of five for sure, either two sessions a week or, with the help of another adult, one session split apart

[tulip mountain]

lmao oof

[karmic bear]

we are five minutes into the gameplay

and just after we joked about making a drinking game and "social justice lecture" and "tragic backstory callout" as options for doing shots

[wheat moat]

raises eyebrow

Third edition Apocalypse World wasn't on my bingo card.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lumpleygames/apocalypse-world-burned-over

[gritty crane]

mmm I like all the Mignola-esque art 👀

[woven citrus]

yo what

[wheat moat]

I think you bounced a channel over.

-# And it was deleted. :P

[kind girder]

I still see Kris' post here. 😖

[wheat moat]

Discord. jazz hands

[light meadow]

So I looked at this some more (it got funded in 18min lmao)

Judging by the new moves sheet they included, it looks like the intention is to

1. add more structure to the play pattern in terms of who gets to do what and when, and
2. expand support for players to act in ways that oppose each other, to include pvp

1. is a lot more important to me because I've found consistently that PbtA tends to naturally reward big, talkative personalities

Designating moves as "highly interruptable" and requiring players to announce that they're making such moves gives other players a heads up that if they want to take the spotlight, they have a window to do so in a way the game explicitly allows for, which I think is broadly good. I hope there's more in there like that

This is very funny. It puts the onus on the player to jump in before dice are rolled to make clear they want a coordinated/simultaneous action, rather than allowing a player to see a success and attempt to retcon in a piggyback

(Having rules that explicitly say "hey players, it is your responsibility to speak up" is an unalloyed good. When left to the GM/MC/spacemaster/whatever, I find PbtA games tend to devolve into a soft-initiative and that is something I've always wanted a better solution for)

There are in fact a small handful of instances where the rules say "if you broke the order of operations and dice were involved you have to re-roll"

[rare fable]

I told my players of their habit of randomly going to the underdark whenever they're confused by the political situation. They responded by going to the Shadowfell instead. They're evolving...

[thorn prawn]

elves with a gloomy aestetic are just dnd players emotional support animals when their heads hurt from trying to think about things that aren't beating monsters to a pulp

[summer perch]

https://youtu.be/8EF6RjNiUHU

[velvet ingot]

local elf voted sexiest party crasher in exandria. ||aka: processing my dnd finale emotions by playing dress up in an mmo, more news at nine. meijin's scary handler aravall almost killed us all, so i needed to do a photoshoot for him in his honor. 🙏 ||

[woven citrus]

Spirit Island is really fun

Been playing it recently and it's so neat when everything falls into place

[thin spindle]

https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Outgunned

$25 for all of Outgunned

[thorn prawn]

I am getting deeply concerned my players are too trusting of their obviously mess up npc they adopted and are going to end up letting him destroy their home

[golden flame]

Sometimes homes gotta be destroyed before ppl can learn

[thorn prawn]

I am not being subtle I just had him exit a dream where each player got to confront their lingering insecurities and they didn’t see his but they do know he left his covered to toe in blood and where like eh that seems fine we should trust him with the well of power threatening to destroy our homes

[shell cargo]

What’s wrong with bathing in blood?

[livid geode]

Its a canon event. My players once adopted a very unintelligent kobold (after killing the rest of his team) and then sent him to infiltrate the main hideout... he spilled everything the moment the guards asked how he'd been... (and thus combat began)

[golden flame]

Agreed I think the Canon events like this sometimes just need to happen so then the players can deal with the aftermath

Very like end of act 2 of a movie kinda thing

They get double crossed by someone they trust then spend the begenning of act 3 climbing back from despair and planning revenge

[thorn prawn]

yeah the issue here is the end result of this choice is their death. so uh no aftermath for them to deal with

[golden flame]

ohhhh snap

[vernal oxide]

He had a heart attack in the middle of the night and is dead. Oopsie

[languid halo]

Discovered last night that half our party are actually children. We have 8 players, one is an old man wizard who apparently was summoned from the dirt fully formed about 3 years ago, one is an manufactured personality in a body who only woke up a few years ago and is slowly remembering who they actually are, one is a robot who was only built six years ago and another is a 12 year old cat (not a tabaxi, explicitly a talking housecat)

The other half of the party are a 200 year old elf, a 40 year old professional dungeoneer, an 18 year old fire... Cleric? I actually don't know what class she is but uses magic and a kenku who we haven't asked the age of yet but I have a worried feeling is going to also turn out to be a child

[languid halo]

Aaaand yep apparently the kenku is like 12/13

My and the bloody elf are on the only actual adults in the whole group

[wheat moat]

So your party is actually a school field trip, I see. Which one of you is the teacher, and which is the harassed parent that got talked into helping out?

[languid halo]

My character, Thorn, is definitely the grumpy parent being dragged along (he's got two kids at home and adventuring is the only things he's good at so he goes off and adventures rather than staying home and raising his kids. He's very grumpy about the hand he's been dealt in life). Heian, the elf, is definitely the teacher (he's our healer and a pacifist)

Also, 3/8 are royalty (the elf is a prince and the fire cleric and the alternate personality person are both princesses)

The cat might be as well?

But yeah, upon finding this out, Thorn was just like "I just like going into holes in the ground and getting gold, how did I end up surrounded by royalty"

[wheat moat]

Royalty is also attracted to gold. They're like lesser dragons.

[brazen tendon]

12 is actually really old for a cat

[languid halo]

Very true

[summer perch]

Some of them might be literal dragons.

[woven citrus]

talking older royal cat?

https://tenor.com/view/goodbye-cat-ghibli-gif-8829835

[thorn prawn]

Which cover looks better in yall's opinion

[kind girder]

left

[dense mulch]

Same

[gritty crane]

https://tenor.com/view/the-road-to-el-dorado-both-both-is-good-gif-8304204

[balmy coral]

The betrayal 😭

[livid geode]

Is it a betrayal if Grik (i think that was his name) did not know he was doing anything wrong?

[safe smelt]

Reminds me of a time the party gave the cursed magical dagger which compels people to use it in a ritual to summon a dark god to the kobold they adopted . He instantly failed his wisdom save, and so they immediately snatched it back

Though that was a fun magical item to make them deal with in general, as it was a constant game of almost pvp as they kept taking turns seeing if they could resist it

[balmy coral]

In my head his name is Greg 😅. But I know that’s not correct.

[velvet ingot]

One of my favorite moments in our game with Matt is that Meijin got an evil rapier that tries to convince anyone who wields it to distrust and eventually betray everyone around them and Meijin, a certified paranoid wreck already, went "of course I don't trust any of these people around me, here's my itemized list, updated every 10 minutes, of all the ways my party members could potentially be a threat to me" and the sword went "Oh. Okay then. Nice."

He does spend most of his time with her why things aren't bad enough yet to cut and run on their own and kill everyone around them to get out 😬

[balmy coral]

When the DM has an angel and a devil on either shoulder, one carefully crafting a redemption pathway for the PC to potentially follow, the other throwing in a sentient weapon that vibes with the PCs worse impulses.

(not saying which is which 😉 )

Do I want the party to overcome their pasts and become a found family, or tear each other apart, who is to say....

[brazen tendon]

Tear eachother apart and then come back together

[low gorge]

fascinating

[balmy coral]

(For legal purposes that is a joke)

[low gorge]

I'm watching....! 👀

[velvet ingot]

You know, I think Meijin not murdering Adea for how much she was betraying him to his very scary enemies behind his back when he found out was a really good sign of his character growth 🙏

[balmy coral]

Is that a success or a failure for the DM? Who is to say?

[peak cedar]

Ive only done sentient magical items twice in my games. The 2nd one was way more interesting and I really liked where that went. I should screw around more with sentient magic items, they are fun (though Im not GMing anything right now 😩 )

[balmy coral]

The main DM downside I find is it’s one more “permanent” NPC who is always with the party to track

[safe smelt]

I personally prefer the permanent npcs when gming tbh, makes it easier for me to flesh them out a bit more

[tawny edge]

Y'all I just rolled the following 4 rolls: 1, 20, 1, 1.

I guess if I come across combat I'll either die on the spot (without being attacked) or become god.

[upbeat forge]

There are only two numbers on a d20

All the other ones are fake

[rare fable]

Nah, my players have the d20 with the 20 on it and I have the one with the 1 on it

[thorn prawn]

Untrue 2 also exists if you can reroll 1’s

[rare fable]

I'm tempted to give my super lucky player who rolls more nat 20s than not a die where the 2 on the 20 is missing

[languid halo]

Last night my DM discovered the power of putting obstacles in front of players

It's shocking that this guy has been DMing for years and years and I gave him the idea weeks ago of putting the entrance to a dungeon a little out of reach by convential means and so he put it 200ft down a 600ft cliff and had an absolute blast DMing our crazy solutions (we polymorphed our warforged player into a giant eagle, cue lots of transformer jokes, and he did strength saving throws to carry us down two at a time) and this DM, who has a terrible habit of just putting the thing we need in exactly the place we thought we'd find it, discovered how fun it is to just put a slightly difficult challenge in front of players and seeing how we overcome it

I hope he learns from this

[golden flame]

Then the next level is hiding the thing and making it hard to get to

Journey before destination

Where the search and the trying to access the thing can be heaps of fun

[wheat moat]

This week on Invisible Sun (after several weeks off for various illnesses):

No actual game play, because we went through the conversion process for the characters entering The Darkest House system agnostic setting for a horror interlude...

Now to torture the PCs.

[thorn prawn]

Welp time to run my players vs every assasin in the city combat

[rare fable]

Let's say your DM offered your party "special interests" which manifests as expertise in a non-skill (pick a place where your proficiency bonus appears and double it), but each party member must choose something different. Obviously attack rolls and spell save DCs would be top tier, but after that? Any great race or class features? Maybe Fury of the Small for the Magic Missile shenanigans?

[gritty crane]

Mmmm expertise in Reliable Talent so you can have double the bad roll insurance.

Expertise in Jack of All Trades so you just have proficiency in Everything™.

[rare fable]

I think Jack of All Trades goes against the spirit of the offer :p

[gritty crane]

I don't know what expertise in Rage would look like, but I'd be very interested in what one would come up with. I personally like the PF2e ability where barbarians get so angry that their rage becomes contagious and starts infecting party members.

#LetBardsDoThings 🎶

[rare fable]

Huh, apparently proficiency bonus doesn't apply to rage. I could've sworn it was the damage bonus or the number of rages per rest but no those are tied to class level.

Technically I think this would make it only apply to skills you have expertise in :p

Replacing "proficiency bonus" with "double proficiency bonus"

[thorn prawn]

Summary of my session today a rolled a elementary school magic class into a combat with the assassins guild resulting in the death of 37 children, 3 celestials, 28 assassins, 239 civilians and all of my brain cells

Kids had scorching ray meaning I had to run 50+ things in initiative all with 3+ attacks.

[rare fable]

You can batch initiative by creature type

[thorn prawn]

Unfortunately in this case no

That was with as much batched as I could

The combat drew in different assassins. Each round a new one showed up based on a d4 a 1 summoned two enemies.

They rolled so many ones.

so many

Lines from this session: we are gonna trigger martial law ( city is already under martial law and they are the law)

[peak cedar]

Fury of the Small with MM? Seems like RAI ... I don't think that would work?

[rare fable]

Why wouldn't it work?

[peak cedar]

Can only use the trait once per turn

Would still be a very powerful use of your "special interests" scenario, cause it's still a ton of damage and double dips in number of uses since that is also driven by the proficiency bonus. At level 5 you'd be able to do an additional 6 damage per turn 6 times per long rest. Pretty good

[rare fable]

RAW you roll 1d4 and apply it to each missile, so you gotta convince the DM to allow RAW :p

So you'd deal an extra 12 damage per turn at level 1

At level 5 with upcast MM you get 5x(1d4+7) damage

On average 47.5 damage if I'm mathing right

[peak cedar]

When you damage a creature with an attack or a spell and the creature's size is larger than yours, you can cause the attack or spell to deal extra damage to the creature.
MM is multiple instances of damage. When the first missile deals damage and you choose to use FotS, you then can't decide to use it again on the 2nd missile because you can only use the trait once per turn

It's not "when you cast a spell"

[rare fable]

Though apparently that is a ruling specific to 2014

[peak cedar]

wow, I've never seen anyone play that way

[rare fable]

Basically nobody does, hence why you gotta diplomance the DM so you're on the same page :p

[peak cedar]

its funny Crawford says "RAW" when there is nothing "RAW" about that, seems like that was his intention but the text doesn't support it lmao

[rare fable]

You can also do it with Hexblade's Curse

[peak cedar]

Though I think even if you roll the same d4 for all missiles, which is a weird interpreation but regardless, applying the extra damage for FotS as per the trait happens when you deal the damage, not when you roll the damage

I guess it'd be a rulling that has to be weighed against another weird MM interaction: concentration saves

[kind girder]

Roll 1 d4 for extra variance. Roll 1 per dart to push towards the mean.

[rare fable]

https://youtu.be/MhW3SfyOU-Y

[peak cedar]

if you rule that each dart triggers a concentration save (which technically would be against RAW per the above Sage Advice, specially since the spell says all darts hit simultaneously) then FotS wouldn't be usable on each dart

but if you MM triggers only one concentration save then sure

[rare fable]

Roll 1d4 if your first die is 3 or 4, otherwise roll multiple 😈

[peak cedar]

is there sage advice for MM versus concentration ?

I bet it's gonna be contradictory

lmao, I guess per page 196 of the PH you also only roll 2d6 once for Scorching Ray then? Such a weird response from Crawford 🤔

[rare fable]

Yup

Imo RAW is only useful as a baseline and as a thought exercise, and what matters is that you talk with your DM about how you want the game to work

[peak cedar]

well, yeah there's no disputing that

[kind girder]

There is probably someone disputing that

[peak cedar]

you can throw all rules out of the window for all I care

but the goblin + MM interpratation seems like its stretching it

[rare fable]

I just tell my players "hey I think X and Y would be disruptive to the story I'm trying to tell, let's find an alternative"

I think it works very well in the context of a special interest tho

An MM savant

[peak cedar]

I just love dissecting d&d rules because it becomes really silly

Im now caught up in this Crawford tweet and omg

The rule he uses to justify rolling just 1d4 for MM is this

If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.

That means that you only roll a single d4 when you divide the missiles between targets, but if you send them all to the same target that rule doesn't apply (RAW) and you'd have to roll separately?

I love RAW interpretations of the rules, so scuffed

[rare fable]

Apparently FotS edge cases itself back into not being multiplied but Hexblade's Curse does

Since it adds to your damage but not your damage roll like HC

[peak cedar]

well, being hyper RAW nowhere does it say that each missile is a separate instance of damage, I think that's just an accepted interpretation based on the concentration rulling provided by Crawford here https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/, but the text actually speciy all darts hit simultenously which could actually more easily be interpreted as it being a single instance of damage, possibly spread out across multiple targets (not unlike a fireball)

I still think FotS wouldn't work for each missile though, for that same reason. You roll 1d4+1, multiply by however many missiles you are sending on a single target, then add proficiency. However, if you send 1 missile only against multiple creatures you roll 1d4+1 and deal that much + proficiency to each target (like a fireball + FotS would work)

that's my best interpretation of the rules as written

[rare fable]

Eldritch blast like multiattacks are also ambiguous on simultaneity

[peak cedar]

does it help anyone? No, but I love how scuffed d&d can get if you follow it to the letter

[rare fable]

I mean RAW nobody can see the sun

The main rule is that the DM gets to rule for common sense :p

[peak cedar]

my favorite bizarre 5e rule is that someone using a net always attacks at disadvantage unless they are a crossbow expert

make it make sense pls

[rare fable]

Wat

I didn't realize nets have a short range of 5 ft

Wtf

[peak cedar]

oh yeah, this is my absolute favorite

[rare fable]

Guess it's because nobody ever uses nets

[peak cedar]

it's a thrown weapon with a short range of 5ft and a long range of 15ft, so you either have disadvantage for being too far, or for being too close

unless of course you are really good with crossbows

then you ignore the penalty for throwing it at close range

(because crossbow expert applies to all ranged attacks, not just attacks with crossbows)

I guess technically you could be a sharpshooter and ignore the penalty at long range

but thats less fun than being really good with crossbows helping with your net throwing ability

[rare fable]

I mean

You can also lean into the sharpshooter and go BOOM HEADSHOT whenever you land a net on someone within spear range

[peak cedar]

lmao

[thorn prawn]

Not true anymore btw

[thorn prawn]

No becuase magic missle activates all at once it’s not separate attack rolls becuase it has no attack rolls

[thorn prawn]

Those should be at once becuase it’s separate attacks

[peak cedar]

I said nothing about attack rolls?

[thorn prawn]

you'd have to roll separately?

becuase theres no attack rolls this doesn't apply

magic missle is the odd part of this interacton as its a spell without an attack roll that just happens

[peak cedar]

I was talking about rolling damage

the entire rule I quoted is about rolling damage, not attack

[thorn prawn]

yes but the point is it doesn't work that way becuase of what i said

[peak cedar]

Sorry, I just don't see how what you said has anything to do with what I said 😅

[thorn prawn]

U good

[peak cedar]

lmao

in our Zweihander game just now we were so efficient we ended up screwing ourselves over

[rare fable]

Today my party turned down two calls to adventure

[peak cedar]

accidental swearing, ops

We are trying to get rid of a pair of liches who are hiding in this underground ruined city. The liches are controlling a brood of skaven (ratman). Our plan? Attack the skaven broodmother to lure out one of the liches (idea is he comes to defend her). We expect as we kill this lich that the other one will go to a place where he can draw power from a bunch of souls stuck to some soul kilns. If he gets to do that, it's bad for us. So we leave behind one of our party hiding with a death spear (giga broken and dangerously powerful artifact) and a cast of the spell augury (can auto crit any roll of your choice). Idea is when the second lich arrives, that party member uses the death spear to insta gib it.

How does the plan roll out? We get to the broodmother and one of our party members insta kills her in the first turn of combat.... uh, now the lich has no reason to come defend her, so both liches go to the spirit kilns and now our other party member is [expletive] 1v2ing 2 ancient liches

well, nvm, death spear is indeed broken

He barely beat them on initiative and lined them both up in a death ray

this game is insane

well, not only the liches, lmao, the death ray continued on for miles killing everything in its path

yep, insanity

[thorn prawn]

One of my players went to a halloween party dressed up as the other player. to get back at him the person who was impersonated decided to play the impersonator as his next dnd characetr

[rare fable]

When the player rolls up to your table with a character named "Cooler <DM's name>"

[languid halo]

I've literally done this

It was a lvl20 oneshot (which I dislike anyway) and so I made a level 20 wizard called the DM's name and when I was describing him, I just looked at the DM and described what he was wearing but added sunglasses and did my best impression of the DM

Also okay so my attack on titan inspired campaign that I've been planning, which actually ended up being more of a Greek mythology inspired campaign but with the titans from attack on titans as the "titans" from myth and the Dragons being comparable to the zeus's pantheon of gods (so the Dragons came and killed the titans/giants but now they're returning)

So I've done a decent amount of worldbuilding, I've put adventure spaces (a Hexcrawl where the players are tasked with finding one of the tombs of the titans) and just thinking about plot threads and villains and towns and all that

But then someone mentions an adventure book called Odyssey of the Dragonlords

And so I'm like "Hey that probably has some cool Greek myth DnD stuff in it"

And so I download that adventure book and guys

Guys

This is literally the campaign I've been planning but better

Like it's almost identical setup and almost identical twist

Like yes I know there's only so many ways you can do "Greece but it's fantasy" but like

Here's my very rough map of what I was planning

[wheat moat]

-# I am climbing the walls over here at you repeatedly capitalising dragons, but not Zeus...

[languid halo]

And here's the Odyssey of the Dragonlords map

[languid halo]

Blame autocorrect 😛

[wheat moat]

:P

[languid halo]

But yeah, also the Odyssey of the Dragonlords campaign book is really good, highly recommend

I will be stealing from it voraciously to the point where I'm basically gonna be running that without telling my players

[wheat moat]

This is the way.

[thin spindle]

What kind of god would have the Arcana, Nature, and Twilight domains?

[livid geode]

Some sort of "witch of the woods" type goddess?

[vernal oxide]

Hecate lol

[thin spindle]

Hmm

[vernal oxide]

But yeah, a Cthonic god(dess) is more likely; if you're going for a more "primordial" type feel, Nyx is the sort of deal you'd want, the Incarnate of Night, that sort of vibe. If you're looking for a more higher order/conceptual/specific god, someone like Hecate, goddess of magic, is where you'd aim

[balmy coral]

Persephone vibes would work with those domains too. Like Hecate associated with transition, and nature. Partially cthonic.

[thin spindle]

What if I swapped Arcana for Knowledge?

[rare fable]

Oghma has Knowledge and Nature

Twilight can be tacked on in your setting

My setting has a bunch of Selunite druids in the shadowfell guarding knowledge about Yggdrasil

[vernal oxide]

I mean it also depends on your setting, you know? Are you making your own pantheon(s)? Or are you gonna be using extant deities wholesale?

[thin spindle]

The former with inspiration from the latter

[thorn prawn]

A god of the night Sky

[fallen mango]

Reading Lancer lore and got jumpscared by "Crimson Memory"

(It's a martial company there)

[velvet ingot]

ok im enamored with this jewelry box i just got and obviously i am using it in the most normal way possible

[golden flame]

Okay but those are some of the most beautiful dice I've ever seen

And they need to be displayed well

Specifically these 3

[velvet ingot]

The iridescent glass dice that's alone at the top is my fave just because the way it looks in person is magical

[golden flame]

Wait

Those are cosmere dice

[velvet ingot]

but i do love those two metal ones down there

[golden flame]

Just noticed the cosmere set

[velvet ingot]

yeee i have the windrunner (for the color) and skybreaker (for my loyalty) sets

[golden flame]

Who makes cosmere dice and where can I buy them

[velvet ingot]

Dragonsteel! They're sets for the Cosmere RPG (so they have an extra D6 that's marked for the plot dice mechanic)

I got them at the con last year

[golden flame]

Why i gotta be so poor right now

Well poor when that came out on kickstarter as well

[velvet ingot]

https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/search?q=dice

[golden flame]

$40 is a really reasonable price for those

[velvet ingot]

They're lovely!

[golden flame]

Just a bit outside of my discretionary budget right now

[velvet ingot]

also each set has a unique pattern carved into the face, and every top face on the dice is the order's symbol

I almost got the Edgedancer set for that bright aqua but i was trying to be judicious last year

[vernal oxide]

Based

[sleek sluice]

Perfect use of a jewellery box, it looks so pretty. 🤩

[velvet ingot]

There were two of them at the store and tbh... i think i'm gonna go back tomorrow and get the other one

[wheat moat]

Very nice. I approve.

[thorn prawn]

I haven't run a premade adventure in almost 4 years and im doing it again and while i do standbuy that a premade adventures aren't great for a persons first time they do make preperation so much easier

[balmy coral]

Just having maps ready, stat blocks handy (and made), etc saves a lot of time.

[vale quartz]

Ooh the top right and top left style are particularly beautiful 👀

[languid halo]

Baby sleepin so managed to paint the dragon for my characters upcoming big boss battle

It's a combination blue/white dragon

[livid geode]

https://tenor.com/view/yu-gi-oh-kaiba-gif-11244264

[balmy coral]

Would love to play with minis someday

[thorn prawn]

A cheap 3d printer makes it very possible

[balmy coral]

My barrier is less the physical minis, more having an in person group.

[thin spindle]

https://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2025/11/23/oops-all-heroes/

pretty

[thin spindle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1443187701733130242/1443240041169027193/Schwartz-Model-v4-Copyright.png

it got prettier

[thorn prawn]

Welp new 2024 artificer is out

[brazen tendon]

Wouldn't it be 2025? 🤔

[thorn prawn]

The phb is 2024 so the revamped rules start there is why

[vernal oxide]

Its 5.5

Its a refresh of 5e. Therefore its 5.5e

[brazen tendon]

Not the official name though

[vernal oxide]

Screw the official name, WOTC are evil

[thorn prawn]

It’s not really a .5 addition I’m partial to 5.24 which both refers to the year and recognizes it’s not really a new edition

[vernal oxide]

Fair

[thin spindle]

how much different was 3.5 from 3e

[wheat moat]

From twenty year old memories, not that different.

[thin spindle]

so 5.5

the only reason it hasn't formally been called D&D 5 Revised Edition is because WOTC is afraid of losing sales

[wheat moat]

As far as I remember, any of the 3e source books were fine being mixed with the 3.5e source books. It wasn't a whole new version, so things were broadly similar.

[safe smelt]

Yeah, the whole dnd one or whatever is just a marketing stunt tbh

[fallen mango]

At least Pathfinder 2E had the decency to give Legacy and Remastered distinguishable names

[thin spindle]

I have $50 of babysitting money and a "3 for the price of 2" sale at my FLGS tomorrow. I tremble

might grab Outgunned Adventure and the two Action Flicks books

[vernal oxide]

They dropped the one dnd branding ages ago actually lol

[thorn prawn]

Considerably more than 2024 and 2014 have different

[rare fable]

They should've made a 4.5e tbh

5e14 was such an overcorrection

[light meadow]

3rd edition was a train wreck and 3.5 was a rewrite, which isn't at all what 2014-2024 is

[thorn prawn]

Yeah

[thorn prawn]

4e had a lot of good things but I think it speaks for itself how much bigger DnD now is that using its run

4e had a lot of really great concepts some I very much hope get implemented into 5e but in its totality it had a crisis of identity that was significant

[jade tide]

didn't 4e have an "essentials" line that was sort of a 4.5? it was like alternate classes that worked a little different. im trying to remember from like over a decade

[thorn prawn]

Yeah I think they bumbled the name tbh. Onednd was thier initiative and what they called the lead up to their new edition so everyone used it as a placeholder name. They wanted it clear this is not a new edition ( becuase it isn’t) but also not a .5 total revamp. At its core it’s just replacing the core rulebooks. This is why 5.24 is the optimal name. It’s not a new name it represents the 2024 revised rule books and is still 5th edition

[rare fable]

They did have essentials classes but that was like adding the Champion Fighter to 5e as a standalone class

The goal being to have classes that didn't require you to read 50 power cards every time your turn came up

I think the same rationale led them to drop the Maneuvers from base Fighter in 5e

In the original 5e playtest material Battlemaster was how the basic fighter worked and other subclasses went on top of that

[thin spindle]

https://aryl-ether.itch.io/

still waiting for the next installment

[wheat moat]

This week on Invisible Sun:

The party enters The Darkest House and immediately becomes suspicious of literally everything.
Including that time they walked for a mile through a room that contained only pillars and windows that looked out onto darkness.
That time a taxidermy stag head attacked them.
That time they discovered walking through four rooms in a straight line brought them back to the first one.
Plus a sassy living book that's definitely not suspicious.

They resolutely declined to open the coffin...

[gritty crane]

You have to open the coffin though, that's rpg law. Why have a coffin if you're not going to open it?

[wheat moat]

I know, right!

It was all laid out for a funeral and everything, complete with ghostly mourners and ethereal music.

-# One of them did use a spell to look inside and then lied to everyone else about what he saw.

[compact marsh]

Okay reviving the long dead healing in dnd debate: for a 3rd level cleric, spiritual weapon does on average 8.5 damage. a second level healing word heals for 9 points. A giant scorpion (cr3) can deal 42.5 damage a round (if all attacks hit) which means that healing would not be enough to prevent an ally from going down. Healing is useful if somebody is down (depending on the turn order), but if somebody is still up, it will waste a bonus action or action you could use to do damage and doesn’t guarantee that the person you heal doesn’t miss their turn.

[gritty crane]

That's even more egregious. How else are you to pay proper respect without opening the casket?

[wheat moat]

Well especially as inside the coffin was one of the other party members. You'd have thought they were the top of your list of people to pay respects to. nods sagely

Didn't even have the grace to tell that party member they were clearly dead!

[compact marsh]

The exceptions to this are mass heal and using heal on a raging bear totem barbarian

[gritty crane]

To me, healing is only valid in 5e if you can guarantee that the recipient isn't immediately going to go down (or back down) after casting it. The whole point of doing it is to keep someone in the fight, and if they aren't going to be able to do anything with what you give them, then there's no point in you trying to give them what littel you can.

[compact marsh]

Also life cleric + totem barb combo

[compact marsh]

Yeah, healing is almost always used solely to bring people from down for me

Depending on the turn order it’s best to let someone just go down and bring them up

[gritty crane]

That's just disrespectful at that point. How else are they going to be able to tell they're dead when they're clearly dead?
-# The nerve of some poeple.

[wheat moat]

I'm sure it won't come back to haunt them.
-# Heh.

[gritty crane]

Yea especially in a giant scorpion scenario, because those guys hit like a train. Unless they have heat they can actively unload, I think best practice would just be to stabilize and/or move the fight away from them.

[compact marsh]

The only exception I guess would be life clerics

If the gwm barb or paladin goes directly after the scorpion it might be worthwhile making sure they don’t go down

[gritty crane]

Their output is just marginally different though. They can change up that equation a good bit.

[safe smelt]

Yeah, I've only played cleric a few times, but I do try to do life when I do as I feel like playing clerics as support is most satisfying

Though I normally do cure wounds and then spiritual weapon as my bonus action

cast it before people are hurt

then bonk + heal

[compact marsh]

Higher level cleric feels fairly repetitive

4th level spiritual weapon + till the dead, save lvl 6 and 7 spells for heal if anyone goes down, concentrate on holy aura and then just kinda stand around

[golden flame]

Thing is tho that's the "optimal" play and most wont be doing that

And will be fulfilling flavour of their cleric by then

And be quite locked into what ever fun stuff they are doing rather than meta things

[compact marsh]

Well why would you be doing unoptimal play

[golden flame]

Read what I said again and ask your self that question

[compact marsh]

Like to me, if something is optimal, it’s not necessarily fun but an unoptimal play is de facto unfun

Because now you’re letting down your party and making the encounter balance whack

[low gorge]

spirit guardians + rush in with melee weapon ☺️ + mass healing word as needed

[golden flame]

I dont think most players have that philosophy

Or gms

[compact marsh]

Spirit guardians is actually really fun at lower levels

[low gorge]

I know

[compact marsh]

Or banishment and hold person are fun control spells

The issue is once you get holy aura you should only ever be concentrating on holy aura

[golden flame]

I honestly think as well that adhering to "optimal meta play and bulds" kinda pulls away from some of the fun of the actual role play and the enjoyment for a big portion of the dnd population

Just from what I've seen

[low gorge]

never had a cleric that got eighth level spells, so kinda entirely moot

[golden flame]

And good encounter design means building around what your players have and can do

[compact marsh]

Lower level clerics are really fun

Like pre level 12 clerics are a lot of fun

[golden flame]

Rather than throwing your hands up and saying "your non meta build destroys my encounter design"

[low gorge]

I close my eyes and ears whenever I see anything like "this is the only thing to do to make cleric "good""

[compact marsh]

But they scale kind of poorly

[golden flame]

Same

For like any dnd thing when someone's like "you can only play this way to make x thing good" just grinds my gears

[low gorge]

I also hate spiritual weapon

get that outta my sight

[compact marsh]

Well I think at lower levels this is the optimal cleric play though

Wait spiritual weapon is good though

[low gorge]

then I was happy for it to be mine instead of told to me

[compact marsh]

I mean, it depends on what kind of game you’re playing but the mechanics do matter a lot for most people

[low gorge]

if you agree it's optimal for around my level, then it feels like mechanics do matter to me?

but I disagree that good mechanics = follow the one true optimal path

that is always boring

[compact marsh]

No, there’s always a couple different builds you can make

[golden flame]

Imo the best sessions are where poeple dont follow the one true path and they follow what their character design leads them to do

[low gorge]

we haven't been talking about builds, we've been talking specific moves to make

[compact marsh]

Even for clerics life cleric vs twilight cleric vs light cleric is gonna be very different

Well generally I think you should design your build around the moves you want to make

[golden flame]

Thats not what you've been saying

You've been saying "there is a true path and if you stray you mess it up for everyone"

[compact marsh]

I mean, there is definitely a way cleric should be played

[low gorge]

and re spiritual weapon, been in too many battles where I get to use it once and then I can't get the thing moved to another enemy in time to actually use it again. I hate moving that around the map

[compact marsh]

But there are specific subclasses that let you do other things

[compact marsh]

Oh yeah that’s valid

That’s annoying as hell actually

[low gorge]

this sentiment conveyed as is I think it's the sticking point here

when it comes down to it, I want to be able to play my class without thinking, "oh man but what if the #1404997600687689799 chat thinks I'm cringe"

I just dip out so I don't see opinions on what I "should" be doing

[velvet ingot]

Every time I look at a meta Bladesinger post that's like "there's no mechanical reason Bladesingers should get into melee rather than just Bladesong from the backline, take the huge AC boost, and then just sling spells from afar for the most damage" something in my soul withers

[compact marsh]

Well, as long as you and your group are having fun it’s not wrong but DnD is still a mechanics based game with different mechanics designed to facilitate different types of play

[velvet ingot]

I do not care if it's optimal, I am going to send my squishy little wizard with negative five HP into melee range and he's going to do the slashy slashy, stabby stabby

[golden flame]

This and pushing this ideology is i think at the core of why some ppl dislike dnd over other systems

[compact marsh]

I think this is only true if your party already has two frontliners

[golden flame]

I truly believe some think that dnd is too mechanics focused because of the adherence and the push for being meta

[velvet ingot]

People whine about how WotC didn't mechanically incentivize Bladesingers with damage to actually be melee fighters and I'm like "okay or you could just have fun with the melee wizard that's clearly meant to be a melee wizard even if it's not the most damage possible"

[compact marsh]

I mean, if you want to play chess like checkers and checkers like mahjong that’s valid as long as you’re having fun, but people will still talk about chess in terms of optimal strategies

[low gorge]

this feels at odds with the implications above of there being one right correct thing to do. there are lots of ways to use the mechanics in the game to do lots of things

[golden flame]

That is compleatly wrong and not a good analogy at all. Those are very rigid rules wise and dnd has flexible rules as written to bake in ability to do what you want flavour wise and even mechanics wise. It tells you rules as written to focus on the story and the role play and the group dynamics and things over this

[compact marsh]

Oh for sure! And it’s not always clear what the optimized paths are, and there’s room for customization

[compact marsh]

DnD is not flexible rules wise

Where there’s flexibility it’s because WotC worded the rules poorly

[golden flame]

I just fundamentally dont agree

[low gorge]

i do think it's helpful for players (say, new players or someone looking for some tips) deciding they want to look up some good strategies on what to do with their class. but to have this phrased as if everyone should abide by x and y is like.... why should I do that

[velvet ingot]

DnD isn't necessarily about "winning" though, is the thing. I don't play DnD to win fights with strong abilities and strategic combat choices. That is a fun thing to do in DnD, but it's not the goal.

[low gorge]

I don't want to be the avatar of what Camille in the rpg chat thinks is a good choice for my turn . I want to play my character and do what I think is best

[compact marsh]

DnD is used to facilitate tabletop role play but it is fundamentally designed as a dungeon crawling and resource management game

[golden flame]

I play dnd to spend some structured fun times creating stories with friends using this time to get together and have a shared goal

[velvet ingot]

I play DnD to tell a story and have big emotional character moments

[compact marsh]

I think the fact that you and your table find suboptimal play fun is great, but a lot of people want strong and optimized builds that also do the thing the build is meant to

[golden flame]

And even rules as written it tells you to rule of cool things and to be flexable

[compact marsh]

As a DM, it also is unfun for both the player and the rest of the table if one person has a suboptimal build (compared to others)

[light meadow]

(Or if one player is powergaming and the rest of the table is not)

[compact marsh]

Fundamentally its all relative

I’ve never had a power gamer build actually be a problem aside from gloomstalker ranger

[golden flame]

I think the flaws and the suboptimal things make the game richer. I dont want a 20 in every stat I want flaws and problems and stuff to overcome and develop. Dnd again rules as written tell you to adjust everything to be optimal for your group socially and mechanically

You are only bringing down the group if you are the odd person out

[light meadow]

I have absolutely had relatively powerful builds take over a table before

[compact marsh]

The problem builds are the ranged ones tbh

[light meadow]

I don't think the statement here should be "people playing suboptimally are griefing their tables", but rather, "D&D is not well-equipped to handle tables with a wide degree of player power organically"

[compact marsh]

That’s valid but I think in online discussions of DnD it’s fair for the conversation to orient around the mechanics and how that ties into the player experience

[low gorge]

well, one, playing "optimally" means I get to use like a quarter of my kit or less. second, I'm not at a table of people who care if I'm optimal and it shouldn't be assumed that's the standard table.

[velvet ingot]

Calling it "suboptimal" is such an unnecessary value judgement though, and it feels like you're missing the point of why people would intentionally prioritize other things.

My DM and I spent hours building an extremely powerful magic tattoo for Meijin with a ton of different spell effects and mechanics baked into it... that is basically a huge curse that gives his enemies a ton of power to cripple him in combat and social situations and has basically no beneficial properties for him whatsoever. He has to use up one of his attunement slots at all times just to negate some of the nastiest effects it causes.

I didn't do that because I didn't realize it was "suboptimal" or somehow thought this huge, omnipresent detriment would be a combat advantage. I did it because it's fun to have a character in an emotional headspace where he has to deal with this problem he can't get rid of. Matt and I both have a ton of fun finding ways to add and exploit those weaknesses in ways that cause interesting conflicts for the character and the party. It's not a drag on the table, it's an important part of the plot we're crafting as a group.

[low gorge]

I fully disagree that dnd talk online should orient around mechanics, and particularly, I'm not sure why I should trust what someone not at my table insists is the best way to play my class

everything is situational, every single thing

[compact marsh]

This is a problem with DnD design as a whole tbh, which is that there’s only a few mechanically valid options (not to say other options can’t be fun for individual tables but the majority of players will what the mechanically good option)

Like I also wish that clerics had access to better damage and control options at higher levels but that doesn’t change the fact that the options they do have kinda suck numberswise

[light meadow]

I think this is a valid way to talk about D&D but so far from the only valid lens through which D&D can be discussed

And yeah I don't agree that it is necessarily a good default

[low gorge]

hence, why I don't enjoy talking about my game or class here. it's always the same thing

who cares

that isn't why I pick clerics

and the characters I form around the class

[compact marsh]

I mean, ultimately DnD mechanics are designed around being a resource management game

It can also be a storytelling game and that’s valid

[low gorge]

I understand that's very important to you

but it doesn't follow that means it is or should be as important to anyone else

[light meadow]

D&D suffers from a particular market placement where the game the rules encourage and the game the culture encourages are pretty starkly different

[velvet ingot]

Maybe it's personal bias, but I do feel like the majority of DND players pick classes and abilities for vibes and style rather than power optimization. Some players do like the minmax builds, but I really don't think it's the default

"a character that could do these kinds of things would be cool" feels like it's the way a lot of people pick what they want to play

[golden flame]

I just dont think talking in absolutes are correct here. This is your experience with dnd and mabey it would help to expand your world view and see how others might see dnd. Your view is not the only view and expanding empathy and being able to see how others might use this is huge imo for beeing able to talk to others online about this system we all love

[golden flame]

This is how I always talk to new players. What do you want to do vibes based stuff and I help them to find the class and skills/spells to help them achieve the vibe

[kind girder]

Way more people follow the culture than the mechanics I think.

[velvet ingot]

The most miserable DnD experiences I ever had were at tables with mechanics focused players, and if I found a group where the DM and other PCs wanted to focus on optimization, I probably would never consider actually joining them

That'd be a quick "thanks but no thanks, you guys have fun" in the session zero for me

[compact marsh]

I think that’s true for newbie players but a lot of more experienced players realize that the options that are interesting on the surface are actually unfun to play because they’re rarely successful or do little damage and make little impact. Most dnd players in my experience have a checklist of what they want their character to do and then design a build that’s good at that

[light meadow]

Yes, and that's more or less unique to D&D. To Camille's credit, the game D&D tells you it is and the game your homies tell you it is are pretty solidly different from each other

And the weird reality of D&D is that your homies are more right about it than the game is about itself

[compact marsh]

A lot of this is through the permeation of lets plays like critical role, etc

[light meadow]

I think you have a pretty rosy view of "most D&D players"

[compact marsh]

Most dnd players I play with xD

[golden flame]

The game itself tho tells you to fudge things and be flexible

And then all the online peeps are like BUT THE RULES

[compact marsh]

I think mollymauk from crit role is actually a really good example of how dnd as a mechanics game and dnd as a storytelling experience conflict

[velvet ingot]

I mean, I just said this is the way I play and I'm not by any stretch of the imagination "a newbie player." Acting like I just haven't matured enough to learn the right way to play just isn't true. I started at those kinds hard combat mechanicsy tables, and I matured as a player away from them because they weren't fun for me and I learned what kind of DND is actually fun for me to play

[kind girder]

Critical Role really have amplified the "theater kid" side of DnD over the "dice cruncher math nerd" side of it I think but honestly, I think it's best when people are engaged in both.

[compact marsh]

Because Molly had an interesting backstory but terrible build and also terrible charisma and it really interfered with the play

[light meadow]

I still think there are other games that would synergize better with the way yall want to play than D&D, its just D&D is the lingua franca even if it isn't good at being a lingua franca

[compact marsh]

I can’t speak for how good your builds are or aren’t but for basically all of my friends, when you want to (for example) have a build that’s hits things and then you can’t hit things, it’s really frustrating and not fun

[light meadow]

The DM does have to adjust to the table's power level

[compact marsh]

Like if you want to play a control cleric and all the bad guys are monsters and not people and you only have hold person and not hold monster 💀

[low gorge]

but we're not talking about suboptimal = bad, or "can never hit things". it's just less than optimal. what if you ARE hitting things and just according to someone on the Internet who isn't at the table, it wasn't the "right move"

[compact marsh]

Idk, I’ve played cleric a lot and the higher level damaging spells kinda suck output wise

They’re not that fun to play imo

[velvet ingot]

I've played a bunch of other tabletop games, and I like quite a few of them! But DnD is comfy and familiar and it'll always be a standby for me. Lingua franca might be something DnD got based on luck rather than anything it innately did as a system, but it is an advantage it has

[low gorge]

what is this aimed at? what post is this addressing? it feels disconnected

[compact marsh]

To a lot of people (including me) suboptimal == not fun

This is in response to “but what if the suboptimal play is fun”

[velvet ingot]

I know I've talked about how much I like FATE Core (played a long campaign in it, and then GM'd my own campaign in it) but I did find it was hard to get players to engage with the mechanics sometimes because people weren't always familiar with them, even when prompted with reminders about what they could do

[kind girder]

I have a Session 0 coming up this Sunday on the solid foundation of "everyone has a timeslot free", "we're already friends" and "we want to play some kind of TTRPG", and part of the session is just gonna be debating whether we want to just do DnD24 or go hunt down a better system based on what people actually want. That'll give the DM some time to plan and then the campaign will begin next year.

I will give Cyberpunk a shoutout but I ain't ever actually played... anything but DnD14, I have no idea if it's actually good. 😔

[low gorge]

right - in your example, you go to explaining why suboptimal isn't fun by using outright bad builds (which is also allowed) but you bring it to the player being frustrated by their own suboptimality. but the whole conversation has not been "what if I'm frustrated with my build and my choices", but the feeling of having fun and then being told by someone in a chat somewhere that I shouldn't do x thing

[light meadow]

People at a table that is not minmaxed with a DM who's tapped into their power level (which is more common than you seem to think) are usually having a great time and not spinning their wheels uselessly even if they're missing what is the juice for you an where I think 5e is at its best as a system

[compact marsh]

Well you having fun with a build is valid but lots of people aren’t going to have fun with a build and that’s also valid

[kind girder]

I have seen theater kid style players barely know how to pilot their character but they're having a blast because they're hammin' it up, and the DM is probably taking it easier on them.

[low gorge]

but the conversation wasn't actually about other people

that isn't that the conversation has been... from the beginning I've continued to go, the way conversations get pared down to "this is mechanically optimal for clerics to do" isn't fun

[light meadow]

And like, I get being "well if you're not going to engage with 5e on its best merits what are we doing here", but this is the lingua franca thing, people are using 5e because its there and even if learning a new system is easier than it is commonly made out to be, learning seven trying to find the right one for a preferred playstyle is daunting even to me

[safe smelt]

I think this whole convo demonstrates the strength of ttrpgs in general tbh. the fact that there are so many ways to enjoy them based on the table

[velvet ingot]

I played DND 3.5 and both the iterations of 5, and a lot of FATE Core, and MAG and little bit of the Cosmere RPG and Fiasco (and one disastrous foray into GURPS that died basically on arrival) and... yeah I'd probably keep picking DnD most times if I was looking for more tabletop

[safe smelt]

And how all are valid, you just need to find a group that meets your needs

[low gorge]

I don't actually think it's more fun to go "here are the three things you can do as a cleric at your level" with the implication of "you're being a bad cleric if you don't"

[velvet ingot]

Oh and the Quiet Year that one time, I guess I also played that one too

[low gorge]

I will try burning wheel at some point. one day

[light meadow]

☠️ GURPS ☠️

[gritty crane]

Cyberpunk RED is a lil clunky, but it does have some degree of charm to it. It would have a familiar-ish combat feel to it when compared to 5e, but if you wanted something with the cyberpunk vibe but less heavy combat, CBR+PNK by Mythworks is more narratively focused.

[low gorge]

but I do see myself playing dnd for the rest of my life

[gritty crane]

I love the Quiet Year

[wheat moat]

Burning Wheel had some nice ideas, but was a bit clunky to play as whole.

[velvet ingot]

It was so bad... I think we played 2 sessions and then never scheduled it again

[kind girder]

I have heard good things about CBR+PNK.

[light meadow]

I expect Skrimit wants more chunky vibes and more heavy combat

I'll throw out a Cities Without Number shout too for fun Cyberpunk games

[gritty crane]

Cyberpunk RED will more than suffice then 🙂
-# mortality rate be skyrocketing

[velvet ingot]

It's cute! It doesn't necessarily scratch my RP itch, but I have seen it used as a setting builder like a session 0.5 for campaigns in a different system a few times and I think that's a nice use of it

[kind girder]

I'm definitely gonna pitch RED and see how it does with the table.

[low gorge]

we got through 75% of a game and never managed to finish it 😩 it was good tho

[light meadow]

Cities Without Number will feel fairly familiar to the D20 TTRPG player with the added advantage of a space opera sister game and a fantasy sister game you can borrow from to craft the experience to specific taste

And actually a forthcoming postapocalypse sister game

[gritty crane]

I see it less as a ttrpg and more as a board game imo (it's hard to rp when the game emphasizes the silence), but I do absolutely love it, it's such a fun play

[dense mulch]

I gotta read that playtest document

[compact marsh]

Tbh this is fine for them but dnd should not be balanced around that

[velvet ingot]

I don't think anyone was suggesting it should be

[light meadow]

I wouldn't agree that D&D is actually balanced around much of anything

[velvet ingot]

I think the point is those players aren't concerned with balance in the first place

[wheat moat]

This is such a wild concept to me, because when I run something I always say "These are three things I am looking at running, who is interested in which?" and then have a player base that all want the same thing.

[dense mulch]

Or is Cities in full release now with the Apocalypse game on the way?

[brazen tendon]

tbh the fact that you need to minmax to have a powerful character feels like a problem with D&D

[dense mulch]

Shoot

I haven't even read all of the Blades in the Dark rulebook and I've had that for like a year now

[compact marsh]

DnD is designed as a numbers crunching resource management game and it’s fine if people use it primarily as looser tabletop roleplay but for the people playing DnD as it’s designed to be played, having a limited but optimized character and a suboptimal character are both unfun as player experiences

[low gorge]

I'm playing a cleric and I've ended up as the face in certain situations, so I've been scrambling to try and hack charisma into my stats it's been... wild

[dense mulch]

Or the free rules for Worlds Without Number but that one overlaps too much with DnD to be that interesting for me

[compact marsh]

Well it doesn’t need to be less balanced 😭

[light meadow]

I don't know about this. A chunky combat game is what the system wants to be. I just don't think it is very good at being that and bizarrely I think that makes it weirdly better at being a game for more other people who are not into that in ways I'm not sure I can articulate

[compact marsh]

I think that’s less the issue and more the issue that there’s so many trap options

[brazen tendon]

The problem is specifically how easy it is to make a bad character

[compact marsh]

Like the fact true strike still exists is appalling 💀

[light meadow]

I agree and also if everyone makes a bad character and the DM is bad and/or the DM adjusts, turns out much of the time its actually fine

[low gorge]

I think your insistence that dnd is a "numbers crunching resource game" as justification for why it's not only okay but best to keep telling people what you believe to be optimal is kind of the main issue that we have to keep coming back to, the biggest speed bump in the convo here...

[kind girder]

This is how people form campaigns (and 1shot sessions) my local TTRPG server, but this particular group formed organically at a bar and are not dedicated TTRPGheads.

[low gorge]

I don't think that "resource management" is central to many/most tables

[dense mulch]

This is how my friends set up games, though now with half of us in college and/or jobs its been rough finding time for it

[velvet ingot]

I think it's great that you've found a way to play the game that is fun for you and your group and you think that playing with a different focus would be less fun for you, but I do think acting like the way you play is the clearly correct way to play and everyone who doesn't is playing badly or wrong is why this discussion keeps spinning in circles

[kind girder]

Hence why "OMG overlapping timeslot" is the foundation, even before the game system.

[dense mulch]

But my DnD group is also just my gaming group so we don't really have to look for players as much as find a time that all of us can play at once

[low gorge]

and like, there actually are a number of things clerics have that serve the story rather than combat. zone of truth, tongues, augury, and commune are some of the cleric things to do that ARE optimal for my "build" and they rule and they have nothing to do with number crunching whatsoever

[dense mulch]

We have played some stuff other than DnD 5e but since that's the main system we're familiar with and the only one that our primary DM (my brother) knows well we've stuck with it

[low gorge]

so in addition to being extremely out of my mind excited to get Flame Strike, I'm even MORE excited to get Commune on my spell list

[light meadow]

Again to her credit taking the ruleset in a vacuum, divorcing it from its place in the zeitgeist, this is the game D&D wants to be just based off where the game's text chooses to spend time and paper explicating rules. It doesn't happen to be that good at being what it is and weirdly that doesn't make it A Bad Game, it makes it a game that has turned out to be fairly approachable in a post-CR zetigeist

[compact marsh]

Tbh I don’t get the intended goal here, I’m not telling you how to play your build or saying “your build is bad and you should feel bad”, I’m just crunching the numbers on how clerics are played mechanically in general

[dense mulch]

Works okay but that means if I want to play anything else like Blades or Stars Without Number I'll have to DM it myself and teach everyone else

[velvet ingot]

It does feel a little bit like telling people that the only way to play an mmo is to do endgame raiding and everyone should be concerned about their class balance and parses, and if you're not doing that, you're playing wrong, when lots of people are having a great time enjoying the game's story or social hubs or just play up to mid-tier content because that's enough of a challenge for them

[light meadow]

But looking at 5e's ruleset and describing it as a tactical resource management game is like, yes in the coldest most rational light that is what it is

Its just also a social game and whoops social does things to things

[compact marsh]

I don’t think it’s wrong to reinterpret dnd to be what you want it to be but I also don’t think it’s wrong to engage with the ruleset as it is written

[light meadow]

That's not the disconnect

[low gorge]

what that was coming down to in practice was statements both explicitly and implicitly conveying that to you, clerics are a bummer of a class enough that there is only a small handful of "good moves" to make, and the easy implication of "anything else is bad cleric-ing" does exist

[low gorge]

this is not the part anyone is disagreeing with

[velvet ingot]

I disagree that it's as simple as "the ruleset as it is written" is the thing. It's one way the ruleset can be used, among many different ways the game can be played in valid and intended ways

[light meadow]

The disconnect is assuming that maximally engaging the ruleset as written is the ideal and default way to play the game and assuming that others are coming to discuss D&D in that light as a standard

[compact marsh]

Anything else is mechanically suboptimal cleric-ing, which can still be fun for certain tables but is mechanically suboptimal

[light meadow]

Minmaxing D&D is a niche subcommunity

[compact marsh]

R/3d6 my beloved

Although tbh they aren’t even good at minmaxing

Seen some truly bad builds upvoted there

[light meadow]

Despite the game rather unsubtly encouraging you to do so. People just don't play that way and don't want to, in the broader D&D community

[kind girder]

I've been in r/3d6 for a while and they're remarkably much less intense than r/bg3builds.

The BG3 people optimize.

[light meadow]

DMs Adjust

[dense mulch]

But then I've come up with a lot of SWN ideas while walking my dog and I can't use any of them because we're already committed to a DnD game 😭

[light meadow]

Baldur's Gate 3 is much better at being the game 5e wants to be imo

[compact marsh]

Okay minmaxing is actually better in bg3 because of all the terrain options

[kind girder]

And there is no DM to stop you from deploying 44 crates to build the Ritz Carlton on short notice.

[golden flame]

Exactly. My partner loves playing wow and how she plays wow, is playing battle pets and collecting mounts and transmog. She hates raid and dungeons

[velvet ingot]

To use the other metaphor, people who endgame raid in an MMO aren't wrong for doing that or caring about getting the most cutting edge DPS out of each class, but saying that anyone who likes doing other things in an MMO is "just a newbie having fun playing suboptimally because they don't know better" is condescending, and it's condescending when applied to tabletop games as well

[dense mulch]

This is what I've done to Warframe lol

[brazen tendon]

Largely because BG3 has a pretty bad GM that can't adjust to player skill level

[compact marsh]

My analogy is that: you and your local soccer team can have fun just kicking the ball around and it can be great! But soccer as a game clearly has rules and strategies and all that

DnD is the same

[velvet ingot]

I wholeheartedly do not agree that this is an apt comparison, personally

[light meadow]

https://youtube.com/shorts/jQxtWW5bGNM

Swen's proud father moment

[compact marsh]

I also agree with this to an extent because I think the entire DnD community has a gentleman’s agreement to limit summons use

[light meadow]

It is the same, in that trying to tell the kids on the street kicking a ball at a lamppost that they're not playing the way Messi would play is

[dense mulch]

Or placing 243 explosive barrels around before a fight

[compact marsh]

I’ve said like ten times that I’m not saying what other people are doing is invalid

[light meadow]

Newer and more inexperienced players are drawn to summons builds like moths to a flame in my experience

[compact marsh]

The thing is, in universe summons builds are actually fairly well optimized

[dense mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/umm-ok-ok-ok-ok-cool-nice-gif-13831842774806946925

[light meadow]

Right but the default assumption you're working under with respect to how people want to play I think is just bad

[compact marsh]

Out of universe they make the table kill themselves

[dense mulch]

My first game certainly did not have two summon builds of which I was one of them

[compact marsh]

I mean, I’m talking about it from a numbers crunching perspective and I’ve been clear on that

[light meadow]

"Did you catch the game on Thursday night" is a different conversation altogether than "Matt Mercer would have build this character differently"

[golden flame]

you literally have multiple times done that tho

[compact marsh]

And I do think the majority of the DnD players are number crunchers

[dense mulch]

We didn't have to roll a dozen saving throws to see if all the foxes fell over on our airship

[golden flame]

you have said "playing suboptimally is bad for everyone at the table and ruins encounter balance"

[compact marsh]

Well if you care about encounters balancing then yes, it absolutely does mess with encounter balance

[velvet ingot]

I feel like the numbers of players adhereing to different DND preferences within this chat alone is an evidentiary point against this

[golden flame]

^^

[compact marsh]

If you’re playing an improv theatre type of game, it might not matter

But one suboptimal build absolutely does screw with encounter balancing

[light meadow]

Most people are doing this

I don't even think its close

[compact marsh]

This chat is also a pretty small subsection tbh

[golden flame]

its showing there are multiple camps and a spectrum of players and i like how the book rules as written helps with that

[compact marsh]

Almost everyone I know who plays DnD irl does a numbers crunchy method

[golden flame]

especially the wording of things in the 2024 dmg

[golden flame]

again, i think expanding your lived experience onto poeple who are literally saying that isnt theirs is the core problem here

your lived experience is not ours

[languid halo]

This reminds me of my irl table which I didn't think was an optimal build kind of table only to discover two members were actually really annoyed by my suboptimal character decisions

[golden flame]

communication is key in all of these situations

[languid halo]

Like my decision to have my sorc have 10ac and never do anything to improve it (because I find it funny)

[velvet ingot]

I imagine you have self-selected a group of like-minded people who prioritize DnD things the way you do is probably more biased than a random group of internet people who happen to like a fantasy author

[languid halo]

(for my 17s DnD friends, yes Serillion on my irl table also only has 10ac)

[compact marsh]

I mean, you could also go on dnd reddit communities and see much the same thing

[dense mulch]

None of my friends run particularly optimized characters but that is because we are all idiots

[velvet ingot]

This is a crunchy mechanics kind of fantasy fandom even, and the numbers still aren't there

[compact marsh]

Like the majority of DnD discourse online is crunchy numbers heavy

[golden flame]

see things like that can breed some reallly good interactions

[light meadow]

I imagine the majority of D&D discourse is "what happened this week on Critical Role", which is only sometimes numbers heavy

[dense mulch]

We concentrated the sweatiness into MtG and League instead

[compact marsh]

I miss the critical role stats breakdowns so much 😭 😭 😭

[languid halo]

One of the guys had his character ABSOLUTELY determined to give Serillion a shield and I just roleplay Serillion as a weak lil baby boy and the shield is too heavy for him to lift

(this is actually what led to the discussion where I was like "Yeah I don't imagine Serillion with a shield ever" and he's like "Ben wtf are you doing your character is going to DIE")

[compact marsh]

But I mean communities like dndnext, onednd, 3d6, etc

[velvet ingot]

That doesn't mean it's the majority playstyle. Do we count people making art of their characters or commissioning artists for portraits as a non-mechanically focused DnD discourse?

Are we adding people posting character backstories on AO3 and Wattpad to the average against a subreddit?

[compact marsh]

Spending money on dnd art has gotta be substantially rarer than crunching numbers

[light meadow]

I would not at all characterize these people as the majority of players and probably not even the majority of players engaging in Discourse

[dense mulch]

https://tenor.com/view/lifting-muscles-weights-mr-potato-gif-7323807

[light meadow]

A lot of people make a living doing it

[velvet ingot]

The number of artists I follow whose primary commission traffic is DnD OCs says otherwise

[compact marsh]

I would assume the customer base is still fairly small compared to the DnD player base

[light meadow]

Of the six people at my table, only two of us do I know go online to talk about D&D and a third I'm not sure of

[compact marsh]

Like most people if they want art grab it off Google images or nowadays get ChatGPT to generate something

[light meadow]

And we're a relatively sweaty table

[golden flame]

HAHAH!!! thats brilliant, ive had situations like that where i activlly didnt save a character from death multiple times and i found out like weeks later that the dm was aparently giving me obvious signs that i should save the character and everyone else was pissed at me that i didnt. BUt like if you dont tell me out of character at the time i dont know sometimes.

[velvet ingot]

I've played DnD for around 15 years. I have spent a few hundred dollars on DnD art, and I have never once felt interested in going to a DND subreddit making a post there (character focused or otherwise)

[compact marsh]

I’m the only one who I think is chronically online (and there’s like ten people I know irl who play DnD)

And my table has been playing in some capacity for almost ten years

[velvet ingot]

It's kind of like how I don't talk about the Cosmere books much in 17s channels because I find people like mechanics talk here more than I do and the discussions I would find interesting happen elsewhere

[compact marsh]

R/dungeonsandragons does have people posting art of their characters I think

Dndnext, onednd, and 3d6 are strictly mechanics talk and a few stories

[brazen tendon]

You have Shardcast for that

[light meadow]

I do think using Reddit as a barometer is probably part of the disconnect here

https://tenor.com/view/scum-wretched-villany-tattooine-gif-10985312

"People shoot each other time" says Greedo, Mos Eisley cantina regular, in the Mos Eisley cantina

[velvet ingot]

Alright let's do less anecdotes. People have polled this several times, it turns out! Most players either prefer character-based play or they ask for a mix character play and combat. Stats-focused players are consistently a minority:

1. https://slyflourish.com/facebook_surveys.html#pillars
2. https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/poll-what-type-of-choices-do-you-prefer/39115
3. From Roll20 survey: https://share.google/RHKDYx4w9xdaulqaO

[low gorge]

the existence of subreddits for the purpose isn't actually a good argument for "majority"? for one, it's Reddit, that already shapes the kind of users who end up in communities there

[compact marsh]

The both option still needs relatively optimized builds

The dice facilitate play

[low gorge]

there's a faulty assumption like immediately that most people must talk about x thing they like on Reddit

[light meadow]

"Exploration" is an odd one to put as a pillar because I feel like that is something that's fallen a bit by the wayside in modern D&D

[light meadow]

DMs Adjust

[velvet ingot]

That's not what I was responding to, we were talking about what the majority of players tend to prefer/prioritize in their games

[light meadow]

Thou buyest not mine PHB

[velvet ingot]

And we had different lived experiences, so I went to see the data

[golden flame]

Why

[velvet ingot]

Because hey, maybe I was wrong and the majority do prefer mechanics based games but that's not what these sources found either

Discussion traffic about DnD is not a good metric, imo, because it's easy to talk with strangers about mechanics because everyone is looking at the same mechanics at their table, but trust me, strangers on the internet simply do not care to talk about someone else's OCs in a DND game

[compact marsh]

If you’re playing a cleric and you want to be someone who has cool and badass fire powers, and you spend a fifth level to cast flame strike to deal 8d6 damage in a 10 ft radius, and then the wizard casts a third level spell and does 8d6 damage in a 20 ft radius, that just feels bad and you can’t actually play your character as being cool and strong

[compact marsh]

It’s hard to adjust for the “cleric casting flame strike vs wizard casting fireball” situation, because it’s so built into the numbers

[velvet ingot]

I know I probably break containment more than other people (because I am feral) but believe it or not 90% of the time that I'm deep in my feelings about Meijin and Aravall I'm going to either keep that to myself because no one else has anything to say about that or any reason to care, or I'll just word vomit at the other players at my table, or maybe just Grey

[compact marsh]

I mean, the best solution imo is to advise the player to be a light cleric but if you’re playing a non light cleric who wants to do aoe damage (besides spirit guardians) then like… that’s rough as a player and rough for the DM

[velvet ingot]

The good folks of r/DND do not care about my blorbo even a little bit so I would not bother them with my tales of the dumb spy elf

(you nerds don't get to fully escape hearing about him because I do need an outlet and 17s is a splash zone)

[golden flame]

Some of us dont want to escape hearing about them

[low gorge]

even that is like... who cares... I love flame strike even if wizards can do it more and earlier, because that's the wizard class fantasy. it doesn't actually feel bad because I made trade-offs

[golden flame]

I would love more discussions in places like this about poeples blorbos and the ways they are playing them to have interesting adventures

Because then it will help give others ideas on how to fulfill their dreams and make them reality with in these systems

[velvet ingot]

Sometimes I remember that the 10 hour Dier Venture stream was a real thing that happened and it did heal something in my soul to just talk about a stupid TTRPG blorbo for the better part of a day

[golden flame]

Like specificly that cursed tattoo idea that was used as an example sounds amazing

I always forget just how creative some of yall are

[light meadow]

A DM doesn't have to be the best DM for any table but the one they are at

You can tailor encounters to actual party power, and in fact you should be

[golden flame]

Not juat party power but players character dreams wants and desires

[light meadow]

You do run into problems when party members are wildly different power levels. D&D struggles with this in general and there aren't a ton of great solutions

[golden flame]

Within the rules as written as well with out trampling on toes of players. There are some issues that aren't easy to overcome but in my experience most of those aren't issues of dnd but issues of social personality clashes

[velvet ingot]

We recently redid it when I updated Meijin to 2024 Bladesinger and I still love now nasty this thing is:

[light meadow]

For example, if you have a new player who's playing a level 1 halfling Rogue in a party with 13 level 5 dwarf Fighters (each of whom has an Expertise in a different skill for some reason) and a [insert preferred D&Dification of Gandalf here], you might have to give the halfling a Ring of Greater Invisibility and and attach a lot of plot significance to it in order to bring him closer into line with the rest of the party

[compact marsh]

I mean, sure but a lot of people will feel bad if they want to play a blaster cleric and do less damage with a higher level spell slot than the wizard in the party, and it’s a lot more work for the player and DM to make the build fun in that case

[compact marsh]

That doesn’t change the fact that the suboptimal cleric and a regular wizard are doing vastly different amounts of damage. No amount of monster to hit or HP adjustments will change that

[golden flame]

Thing is that damage output isnt the single best indicator of success in dnd

[compact marsh]

I know

[golden flame]

That cleric might be fine dealing less dam than a wizard

[compact marsh]

That’s why I said suboptimal cleric play

Because using your fifth to cast a single damaging spell is suboptimal for a cleric

[low gorge]

"a lot of people will feel bad" is kind of irrelevant to what I've been saying?

[light meadow]

Vastly different amount of damage assuming the wizard is actually taking and using damage spells and assuming the DM doesn't come up with ways to put their finger on the scale in the favor of cleric damage I suppose

[compact marsh]

I’m not saying you will feel bad, I’m saying that many people will be disappointed if they play suboptimally

[low gorge]

that it feels bad to you or mysterious anonymous players out there somewhere (not here, though) doesn't have anything to do with the statements above that started this, which is, I don't want to be subjected to "this is the best (and therefore the only good) way to play cleric" at all turns

[light meadow]

Most players don't even know what optimal play looks like

[compact marsh]

Okay in what table are you playing at where the wizard doesn’t do damage

[low gorge]

there's a reason I talk about my character and game in #writing and not here. i'd love for that to not have to be the case

[golden flame]

Your statement of "a lot of poeple will feel bad" I just dont think is true. You have been shown many times and told that this experience isnt everyone's and you still hold tight to the opinion that "a lot of poeple will feel bad if they cant do simular dam to their table mates"

[low gorge]

and many people won't be

[compact marsh]

Yes but they’ll know that one number is bigger than the other and that will make a lot of people feel disappointed

[low gorge]

and a lot of people won't be disappointed

[compact marsh]

And many people will be? Like i was mega annoyed at my high level cleric

[light meadow]

This is probably the biggest evidence you've provided for self selection out of what I would consider "normal" play

[golden flame]

Some of the tables I've been at one person did almost all of the dam all of the time. But the rest of the table carried the social and the puzzle and the supporting that player to do as much dam as possible and we were playing sub optimally in your mind

[compact marsh]

And I think talking about builds vs game vs player satisfaction is fine in the tabletop rpg server?

[low gorge]

so why choose to slant it for those people (who aren't even here, btw) instead of the people who are here and don't feel that way

[golden flame]

But we supported the big dam mechanics focused player as best we could

[compact marsh]

I’m sorry, in what table is the wizard not casting fireball

[compact marsh]

Well I’m here and I do feel that way?

So I wanted to talk about it here

And this was specifically in reaction to a convo gneiss and I had awhile back about healing in combat

[golden flame]

The necro wizard probs isnt casting fireball

[low gorge]

but you don't state it like an opinion, you state it like factual

[compact marsh]

IT IS FACTUAL THAT THE DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER

[light meadow]

I've seen it. I've also seen wizards cast fireball badly

[compact marsh]

I’m not saying that everyone will be unhappy

But the damage output will be lower and that will overall decrease player satisfaction

[golden flame]

You have literally said multiple times that "a lot of poeple will be unhappy" tho

[compact marsh]

Yes, a lot, not all

[low gorge]

no, I don't mean you're doing math wrong, I mean statements like say the beginning

about "the" ideal cleric turn

numbers weren't even a part of the conversation up above

[compact marsh]

That is the ideal cleric turn numerically

Because at lvl 17 (for optimal gameplay) you should always be concentrating on holy aura in a big fight

[low gorge]

and I don't want to constantly hear the implied "so I'm playing bad then" based on what Camille thinks the best numbers to get are

[compact marsh]

They’re not what I think the best numbers are

The numbers are just legit better

And if you don’t want to play according to them that’s fine

But I don’t see what’s wrong with me talking about the numbers

[golden flame]

Its the shoulds of the conversation that are turning us off and annoying us

[low gorge]

no, I don't mean, which numbers are better, I mean which numbers to GET are better. whether it's best to heal vs what spell vs what melee weapon or what have you, it's implication in the topic of "numbers" in the first place

[compact marsh]

Sorry, this is how the convo started because gneiss gave a really long post in Critical role about healing in combat

And my point was numbers wise it’s almost always best in dnd not to heal unless down

With a few exceptions

[low gorge]

particularly with the difference in party members and who/what the enemy is and where we are spread across the map, there isn't a "best" healer turn based on generic advice

[compact marsh]

There’s some variation for different situations which I talked about

But in general it’s not optimal to heal unless down in combat

[golden flame]

What if my prime enjoyment as a cleric tho comes from the biggest healing numbers and number go up makes me and my group happy. Why is that less valid and less correct

As long as we are still not dying

And having fun

[compact marsh]

It’s not invalid, the numbers are just actually not big enough relatively to enemy damage from a game balancing standpoint

[golden flame]

From your perspective*

[low gorge]

and my thing is that it bothers me allll the time to see it, and it sucks to go like, damn well, I guess I'm a bad cleric for healing and I don't really want to have to explain every single combat setup so someone not in my game agrees I made the right move to heal right then

[compact marsh]

No

I literally did the math earlier

[golden flame]

Again

If we are succeeding at encounters

Why does it matter to you what we do

[compact marsh]

Like fundamentally with a few exceptions healing does not help action economy

[light meadow]

To be fair, it isn't about you, it was about Gneiss specifically

[thick whale]

Camille the average player doesn't think about action economy

[dense mulch]

I actually didn't take fireball bc I knew it was overpowered and lightning bolt felt more thematic for my character

[golden flame]

No but your language is applying to all players when you say things the way you do

[dense mulch]

Though I also had -1 dex as a Wizard and this was a bad idea

[compact marsh]

Yknow I respect that

[light meadow]

Spreadsheet D&D is a valid lens to view the game through and Gneiss was making claims Camille was disagreeing with

[golden flame]

Lightning bolt is sick

[compact marsh]

I was having a convo in the critical role thread with gneiss about healing earlier

[dense mulch]

Do not do this lol

[compact marsh]

And I thought about it and made that post

I literally spreadsheet my dnd games at one point

Best way to play tbh and I’d still do it if I had a second screen

[golden flame]

Okay? Why does that matter here and now when we are directly complaining about how you are discussing the things in this channel. When its a broader issue with in the general dnd and table top community online

[low gorge]

and like do I have to go to lengths to exculpate myself for daring to (1) play a cleric and (2) not as efficiently as the people in the rpg channel think? it kind of sucks

[thick whale]

I dunno I got my other systems for numbers and combats I have to actually do tactics and strategy on, when I play dnd these days it's just whatever random fun thing would make for fun rp

[golden flame]

We take this seriously because some of us are turned off dramaticly from discussing table top stuff by these conversations

[compact marsh]

Am I not allowed to address points someone else has made about healing efficiency lol

Like can we not talk about tabletop mechanics in the tabletop RPGs channel

[low gorge]

so even though I like mechanics well enough, the way they get talked about turns me off before joining

[golden flame]

Its not whar your saying its how your saying it

And the implied shoulds

[thick whale]

I don't think there is anything wrong with that kind of discussion but you should have linked to the message you were answering to or something cuz it does read a bit like a message to the void instead of continuing a discussion Camille lol

[compact marsh]

Well you can attach a * “from an optimal gameplay pov” to all of my statements

[low gorge]

it's very like, oh lol cool, I feel expected to agree that cleric sucks and the moves I like are considered "bad" as the cost for getting in the door? I don't want to join in only to get "well that's not optimal". like I'll just stop talking then,

and perceiving that's how it might go, based on tone, I'd rather just not try

[golden flame]

Its a very "um actually your playing suboptimally" vibe and it icks so many ppl from engaging with this content

[golden flame]

That still icks ppl

[compact marsh]

I’m not sure what there is to be annoyed by

[thick whale]

Tho Camille I have to say idk under what rock there are redditors saying clerics suck when they are a 1-9 caster with very strong features

[low gorge]

people are trying to explain it ...

[light meadow]

I do think the reality is that the onus is on the very minority playstyle to make clear the parameters under which they're having that discussion because it does come off as judgy

[compact marsh]

I’ve had a lot of numbers crunchy talks here without issue

I’m not sure why everyone is taking umbrage with it now

[compact marsh]

Clerics are great at lower levels, they tend to scale off at higher levels

And then at even higher levels mass heal and holy aura are amazing but not very fun

[low gorge]

and fun is variable - I love being good at healing and knowing that my kit is helping

[thick whale]

They get ninth level spell slots and the whole progression there, saying they scale off feels wrong when they just number wise get a lot better at the things they were good at and get more options and subclass feature

[compact marsh]

That’s fair, if you find holy aura fun that’s totally valid

[thick whale]

Like this feels I stumbled in an alternate reality where suddenly cleric is bad???

[low gorge]

I just don't want to have to start off an intro to the conversation with a big disagreeing "no it's good actually"

[compact marsh]

I personally felt a 17 lvl cleric can be replaced by a magic item lol

[compact marsh]

This is only true at higher levels

[low gorge]

it's a burden. I don't want to engage if that's the energy I have to enter on

[dense mulch]

They also get actual armor and (relative) tankiness unlike the rest of the casters

[compact marsh]

Where tbh dnd as a game kinda breaks down

[light meadow]

This is also like

[thick whale]

then maybe you aren't good at building clerics

[light meadow]

Nobody plays higher levels

WotC has a ton of data backing that up

[compact marsh]

Okay that’s actually true

Lvl 17 campaign was actually a mistake LOL

[low gorge]

"it's bad at level 17 therefore (broad generalized comment about cleric as a whole)" doesn't feel like it

[compact marsh]

I said higher levels multiple times

[thick whale]

And I feel that when people do play at higher levels, most folk just... Play it as bigger number low level play

[compact marsh]

I felt super bad for the martial players at higher levels

[low gorge]

yeah, but, it keeps having to be prompted

like repeatedly talking about holy aura is mandatory, optimal, and not fun, when I've played multiple clerics and never touched the spell feels like ???

[compact marsh]

This was literally my first statement on the topic of clerics being unfun

[thick whale]

In the sense of like. You aren't shifting how you approach building encounters to be seven trillion tarrasques you can only defeat with this combination of wizard spells and cleric ones and this features. It's just a normal brawl when it happens where like there is a couple new options available for both sides but the things that worked earlier work pretty much as well

And I dunno it's on the harder to make an actually useless character in 5e so

[light meadow]

IMO whenever WotC does 6th edition they should scale from what is currently level 3 to what is currently level ~15, at max. I could see an argument for 13 even

[compact marsh]

Yeah for sure

[thick whale]

Camille wanna play pathfinder sometime?

[light meadow]

And accelerate how quickly you gain levels

[compact marsh]

My experience has been the game becomes borderline unplayable for certain classes past lvl 15

[compact marsh]

I actually do wanna try pathfinder but not with you 😔

Me and all my irl stem friends need to figure out how to minmax pathfinder characters

[light meadow]

Pathfinder is much better at being the kind of game D&D kind of pretends it wants to be than D&D is imo

[compact marsh]

Pathfinder is like

I have no doubt it’s good

But either I’m dumb or brain dead or it’s genuinely really confusing

[light meadow]

It is

[compact marsh]

I think I need a point where I sit down and work out how things actually go

[light meadow]

But once you have your head around it, its a better constructed experience imo

[compact marsh]

ALSO I’m sad they removed drow 😔

[thick whale]

WHY SO MEAN

[compact marsh]

I love you Mia

Peace and love and goodwill only

[thick whale]

I like big numbers too... I don't play how you think I do...

[compact marsh]

Oh 🤔

We can be gloomstalker rangers together

Party of four gloomstalker rangers in the under dark

[thick whale]

Okay you joke but when I played dnd gloom stalker was my class

Very fun flavor and skills

Rangers are great

[compact marsh]

It’s actually a really fun class

The insane range kinda breaks the game a bit though lol

[thick whale]

Range is for cowards, you go in with a greatsword

[compact marsh]

I still have fond memories of my crossbow fighter but I don’t think my Paladin friend liked her very much

[peak cedar]

I'm surprised to see "d&d is designed to be a resource management game" being controversial. The fact most tables don't play it like that has no bearing on the truth of that statement

[thorn prawn]

This is a strawman for one when calculating it as a threat you account for the chance to make the save so it’s very likely less. Even then imagine your hp total if it Truley could do 42 damage that’s very easily over the kill threshold on a 3rd level character. I can just as easily do something like this you have 12 hp max, enemy does 10 hp, and your current hp is 8. Healing up to 12 prevents you going down

[thorn prawn]

The point of the original convo is usually that the one turn prevented is preferable to the alternative

[compact marsh]

The kill threshold is a good point

However even if only one of the three attacks hit, it’s still higher than the average heal so in general it doesn’t prevent you from going down

[thorn prawn]

I don’t care that it’s higher than the average heal tbh

[compact marsh]

A situation where you’re betting everything on keeping a barb up or a paladin up so they can smite and their turn goes directly after the scorpions, and the scorpion is low enough you can get it down in one turn might make sense

[thorn prawn]

Typically it’s actually a wizard

[compact marsh]

Otherwise you’re burning spell slots where you’d be better off yo-yo-ing the characters

All my low level plays have had cowardly wizards who remain 150ft away at all times lol

[thorn prawn]

Most optimized wizards are bulkier than most other builds since armor dips are single level investments

[compact marsh]

You mean fighter 1/ wizard x?

That’s good at mid and higher levels but tbh I’d actually try to get third level spells at lower levels as soon as possible

Although peace cleric 1/ wizard x is actually always really good

[thorn prawn]

Typically I reccomend cleric

The jump between 2nd level and 3rd level spells is big but not big enough to matter

2nd level spells are cracked and you still get a 3rd level slot

I’ll see if I can find time to read the rest of this thread becuase there’s some decent points and some misconceptions

[compact marsh]

Yeah

Peace cleric is also insanely loaded as a lvl 1 dip

[thorn prawn]

Most clerics are insanely loaded lv 1 dps

but peace/chron is probably the pick for most op build in the game that doesn't involve a setting speciffic magic item and abusing optional rules in the dmg

[compact marsh]

Funny enough I think I had a player play that

Chron wizard is probably the best control build in DnD period

[velvet ingot]

I am also a no fireball wizard player, for the moment at least

I think the other party wizard has it though, so if we ever get enough gold and some time, I could copy it

[compact marsh]

Two wizard in one party, dang

What subclasses

[thorn prawn]

dnd 14 is perfectly fine but imo theres no reason to play it when you can play 2024 with 2014 options allowed

[compact marsh]

I’ve been looking at the weapons masteries and I actually really like them

Now to give battle master maneuvers to all martials

[thorn prawn]

Its not overpowered btw take fireball its not a problem . Also lightning bolt is great and if you play it as intended is barely worse and often times better and on a different/better damage type lightning bolt is a solid spell

just know your supposed to pick a junction on a grid so it hits two rows not one

[compact marsh]

Fireball is great and a mainstay up until you get fifth levels

Then youre better off casting synaptic static

Hypnotic pattern is also arguably better than fireball at the same level

[thorn prawn]

fun fact that encounter is beat by a level 1 flying character mia its not that hard

it will just take 2.9*10^10 turns but you cannot lose

ask your dm to just fast forward

[thick whale]

you know what i mean

[velvet ingot]

• Meijin: Bladesinger Wizard
• Adea: Necromancy Wizard
• Mattie: Life Cleric
• Akita: Great Old One Warlock
• Lachsleigh: Profane Soul Blood Hunter / Warlock
• Aerin: Glamour Bard / Rogue
• Serillion: Shadow Sorcerer

We like casters

[compact marsh]

That party is actually kinda busted

[velvet ingot]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Until you have to schedule a session between 8 people that is

[thorn prawn]

just want to say that was lot of yapping yall

[compact marsh]

Grey are you playing the life cleric?

[thick whale]

yeah i dont envy your scheduling

[low gorge]

kinda perfect example of why someone wouldn't offer information about their game in here lmao

[compact marsh]

That makes the healing being suboptimal convo 10x funnier

[low gorge]

I am the life cleric

[compact marsh]

Because you chose the one cleric class that actually can heal decently lmao

[compact marsh]

I meant this as a compliment

[velvet ingot]

We're on hiatus right now for a little while and I'm being very brave about it

[thick whale]

camille they are clearly not interested about that side of the conversation i dont think you should keep pushing it

[low gorge]

is busted like chuffed now

[compact marsh]

Busted means strong

[thick whale]

busted is like, very strong
same with broken

[compact marsh]

You have a party with stupid good cc

[velvet ingot]

We did our most recent combat/escape sequence with a friendly level 20 archfey warlock too

[low gorge]

😭

[velvet ingot]

That warlock was level 8 when this gala started, but, you know, her girlfriend slash patron decided to make a big scene about it

[kind girder]

Bladesingers are so cool. I like to imagine the Bladesong as kind of a constant under-the-breath chant that they maintain in combat, a la Varic Vallenar from #1404905613674283041 .

[livid geode]

"Friendly" to /some/

[low gorge]

she's friendly to you!! it's just not mutual!

[velvet ingot]

She was friendly to you! Lachsleigh just wasn't friendly back

[brazen tendon]

Fireball is very good but it's not broken or anything

[velvet ingot]

I've written Meijin going into Bladesong as giving his attacks a rhythmic percussion to the hits and his movements appearing like a dance. He talked to an NPC about how when he was learning to do it, he used to Bladesong to specific music that he hummed under his breath, but as he got more proficient at it, he could keep it all in his head

[light meadow]

Fireball and Lightning Bolt are actually both out of band intentionally for third level spells because they're signature spells of the franchise. WotC did it on purpose and has copped to that reality

[kind girder]

My current character who I've taken to a couple 1shot/2shot sessions is a '14 Bladesinger who is just tentatively named Zither (after the Inquisition character, yes). Will probably translate him to '24 rules if I end up doing a full campaign with him.

[light meadow]

They decided those spells feeling good most or all of the time was more important than the spells being balanced since people were going to be disproportionately taking them anyway

[velvet ingot]

It also feels very strange for Meijin to Bladesong these days because he's used to having Aravall connect to him with a Dream spell when he goes into a fight, and having his handler's assistance and visual illusions helping him keep track of enemies and the state of the battlefield.

Now that he and Aravall are opposed, he has to worry about the chance of getting thrown into an illusory nightmare if he goes into Bladesong now...

[thick whale]

does he have a hud when his handler helps him? lol

[velvet ingot]

Pretty much, yep! A sealed Lann Sioc can basically get free advantage from his handler's Dream assistance when they're working together

[compact marsh]

I’m also planning on playing a bladesinger in a oneshot my friend is running and I also plan on frontlining

[velvet ingot]

Unfortunately for Meijin we made up this ability knowing his handler will be hunting him down the whole game

[thick whale]

but camille that is not the most opt- is shot

[compact marsh]

With mage armour + bladesong + shield and absorb elements wizards are actually decently tanky at higher levels

Also unless you already have multiple front liners you’re more useful frontlining and providing advantage to your team

[low gorge]

hence this one enemy we were having an escape encounter on had an effective AC of... what, 28? 30?

[light meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/sniper-pubg-loading-sniper-reload-gif-15505006

[velvet ingot]

A lot of the design of the Lanna Sioc seal is thinking about ways you can have abilities that would genuinely make the agent a lot stronger if their handler is helping them, but are cripplingly dangerous if your handler is against you. Plus a heaping dose of monitoring capabilities and unlimited mind reading at any distance for that completely invasive, no privacy life

[kind girder]

It's a full caster with Extra Attack and built-in Concentration defense! It's a very good subclass besides being stylish af.

Full caster with the Wizard spell list.

[velvet ingot]

I love Bladesingers so muuuuuch

[thick whale]

I love divination too much to say that one is my fave but it is great yeah

[thorn prawn]

"To me, healing is only valid in 5e if you can guarantee that the recipient isn't immediately going to go down ...if they aren't going to be able to do anything with what you give them, then there's no point in you trying to give them what littel you can." The difference between optimized play and general play is the ability to predict and see ahead. While this is a great way of preserving resources, oftentimes it ignores the future effects. If I can keep someone up and retain their bonus action, action, and reaction by using a first level healing word two turns even if it doesn’t have immediate benefits its often worth considering. This should all be understood in the context that control spells are key tho.

[velvet ingot]

Meijin did actually go into Bladesong while we were fighting Aravall in this most recent combat, but it's because he could see Aravall already had Haste up and the Meijin knew the combat connection style Dream requires concentration. So Aravall would have had to drop Haste in order to get him through the Dream and he gambled that Aravall wouldn't be willing to do that

[thorn prawn]

Fun fact at certain levels the debate of is spiritual weapon even good is a really heated debate. I’ll dance around it for now but Im on the its good side but theres some people i think are not insane who feel very strongly its terrible. A certain level of optimal is needed if nothing you do has a substantive affect on a fight or encounter or worse is actively detrimental that tends to rub people the wrong way. Take the bladesinger in melee. Its often “optimal” to just have bladesinger cast spells but them doing damage is still beneficial and bladesingers often actually do more damage than most martials. Its undeniably helpful. But a character that plays a pacifist without anything to do may be frustrating to the allies. The mid ground to this may be something like you are a bladesinger concentrating on an important spell ( worst case lets assume haste) that affects your allies with a build that doesn't maintain concentration above average. Yes, running in could very well frustrate your allies and be suboptimal. I like to call this the don’t run into melee range of the person im trying to fireball to get 3 extra damage problems.

[velvet ingot]

(which was correct, Meijin got away with that Bladesong unscathed)

But boy was it terrifying opening himself up to getting Dreamed while he was literally fighting against the person who could get him with that

[light meadow]

This reminds me of how the term "theorycraft" was originally a perjorative

You'd go to teamliquid.net Starcraft forums and people would be posting about how to squeeze out one extra drone with some highly specific build but then you hop in game and turns out it doesn't work, you get supply capped half the time you try it because of how some timing works and so it isn't worth doing, and the people who actually hop in game and run tests and play the game accused the keyboard warriors of "playing Theorycraft". Sometimes you just gotta play the game

[thorn prawn]

i will also say my experience is totally opposite here. The optimizers are so much better at communicating what they want to do than the "roleplay forward tables". They talk to each other about their builds what they want to do, build combinations and plan, and don't step on each others toes. The role players in general have much worse communication. They all want to do their cool thing on their turn and don't have the knowledge of what their allies might want to do to be considerate

[golden flame]

just reading through this after class, how does the necro wizard do the things ive never my self found a good way to do the theme and then make it fun

[low gorge]

zombie/skeleton army

[golden flame]

how many ?

[thorn prawn]

which half are you responding to the spiritual weapon or the fireball

[low gorge]

she is slowly building up her numbers, four skellies right now and had a zombie but it was a Trojan horse so she had to stealthily destroy it

[low gorge]

yeah, definitely a bit opposite. that's an unfamiliar experience

[golden flame]

interesting how about outside of combat or social situations does she and her army stay outside of towns and things

[low gorge]

depends on where we are, but yeah, sometimes she has to leave her skeletons outside somewhere

some places are much more blasé about it

[velvet ingot]

@tall steppe A question for your terrifying fairy

[golden flame]

the necro wizard is chaos and its also a fairy ??

that sounds so fun

[velvet ingot]

She is very... interesting :p

I find it a testament to my munificence as a player and Meijin's self control that he did not murder her on the spot when he found out she'd been telling the Lanna Sioc everything about where the party is and what they've been doing

[tall steppe]

She's crazy!

(if I'm interrupted at work explaining Adea, apologies! May be some pauses)

So my initial concept was to make Adea a happy necromancer type of thing

Like yeah she likes death but that's fun, you know? Wearing pink and such

The intent was for her to be chaotic neutral

[golden flame]

👀

sounds like that intent has drifted a little

[compact marsh]

Theres really no downside to having spiritual weapon popped, but at higher levels it very much does feel like a sprinkle of damage

Tbh as a cleric I preferred to conserve my second levels for hold person but in my campaign we almost never fought people

[velvet ingot]

The other players at the table have informed Eric that Adea's actions are often better classified as "evil" sometimes :p

[low gorge]

I don't necessarily think Adea is super evil, given some of the motivations on the table, but I'm in the minority

I don't understand dnd classpects alignments anyway

[golden flame]

thats where my mind was at

im sure adea dosent see it as such

shes just helping to relieve someones life from their body in a fun way and then give them new lease on life as a skeleington

[velvet ingot]

She's not like, killing people for no reason evil, but I think she has been primarily motivated by selfish reasons to do bad things that hurt people sometimes

[golden flame]

good thing you dont have specific flavours of palladin in the party or someone who is mega aligned to lawful good, even tho sounds like you guys have some super interesting party dynamics

[velvet ingot]

(but I'm also biased as the player of the character who was getting sold out and betrayed because the bad guys promised Adea they'd give her nice things if she helped them)

[golden flame]

https://tenor.com/view/dramatic-gif-26532302

[tall steppe]

She has low charisma and I actually chose her to have a charisma at 9 rather than 10 for the -1 modifier

[low gorge]

😭

[tall steppe]

So she was just like... Annoying?

I didn't really know what I was doing initially, didn't have too much backstory

[velvet ingot]

Serillion is also a sweet, innocent guy from what is definitely 100% an evil cult and got kicked out of there because the other cultists were weirded out by the fact that he was happy while torturing people (he doesn't seem to be aware that the torture hurts people and is bad)

[golden flame]

thats how i do most characters have a relativly thinn backstory and have a couple good hooks to the campaign then build as i go

kinda discovery write my dnd characters

[velvet ingot]

That's @languid halo

[golden flame]

all of these concepts and dynamics sound fascinating

[compact marsh]

As a bladesinger my plan is attack, extra attack, light weapon off hand attack + shadow blade, and at the same time i can be concentrating on something (hold person/monster/banishment)

[tall steppe]

Like I just wanted her to be a lonely girl who really cared about her zombie and found that to be her only friend

I wrote some backstory about how her parents vanished on her when she was young

[golden flame]

if this wasnt a very private and personal thing i would totally suggest streaming/recording it. Totally would change the dynamics and the stuff tho and im sure some dont want to be recorded and want some part of your friendships to be off camera

[tall steppe]

Took a while to develop the backstory as to why she acts like the way she does

[golden flame]

would be cool if i could read a lore docc of your party

or something

[low gorge]

the two people with a 100k word backstory document:

[golden flame]

[velvet ingot]

I post scenes from Meijin's backstory that are publicly available too!

[vernal oxide]

Just like me fr

[velvet ingot]

But yeah there's also the non-public Mattie and Meijin backstory of how they met and traveled together before the campaign started

[vernal oxide]

I need a new consistent on going game...and I gotta fully flesh out goals and motivations beforehand smh

[velvet ingot]

which we will finish at some point but we got stuck crossing into the Kryn Dynasty

[low gorge]

we're almost done

[velvet ingot]

I did this write-up about our premise and a little about the characters last year:

[tall steppe]

Anyway so Adea is definitely... Self serving? We are trying to make her learn the meaning of friendship and we are kind of getting there after two completely emotionally shattering experiences

I do always worry she's crazy in the not fun way

[velvet ingot]

The one big difference is that Grace has had two characters in this game and Izzy has swapped out for Aerin, the reserved Autumn eladrin member of Measartha's most popular boy band, the Four Seasons. They're broken up now though, but we've learned their music might be a key to a prophecy that would end the world and therefore the bad guys want to get them back together (and may already have some members in custody...)

[tall steppe]

So Adea was essentially dominated by a lich for years, so that was "fun" and terrifying for her. She recently discovered what this entity was, though, and it was like this re-formed remains of a dead Archfey and its powers. And the "lich" was such a dweeb!!! He was all like "don't you want to rampage in the feywild again and play our games?"

Yikes

[low gorge]

he was socially... he wasn't what anyone expected

[tall steppe]

She had built up this entire thing in her head that this was some malevolent force

The other reason Adea was shattered was entirely her fault

Because she's a massive suck up to authority figures, and you know maybe the main antagonist of the story came to her in a dream and wanted her to sell out Meijin

Maybe I as a player went along with it because it seemed like a fun plot thread and didn't think this through

MAYBE

[low gorge]

"hmm Eric this is getting serious enough as a betrayal that this could lead to some pvp"

[tall steppe]

Did Adea very nearly die?? Yes

[velvet ingot]

Adea learned Sending so she could sell Meijin out to his enemies without them contacting her first even 😭

Being proactive about the betrayal 😭 😭 😭

[tall steppe]

Yep!!! She kept it secret

[low gorge]

"Oh, okay, is this like, an exit you're planning for the character?"

"no"

I'm chuckling to myself at work. memories...

[tall steppe]

Well to be fair Adea's plan was to try and fireball and murder Iris

And betray all of you

Which would not have worked at all

She was told Iris was evil and would destroy everything okay

This is entirely rational and not very dumb

[velvet ingot]

Meanwhile, Meijin, already a paranoid wreck, trying to ignore his evil sword whispering in his ear that no one around him can be trusted

Adea not making that easy

[tall steppe]

That sword was very sensible

Adea would like that sword

Sinnafex has good judgment!

[golden flame]

🍿

[tall steppe]

Anyway so that's Adea... I need to worldbuild her magic university