Malazan

[rapid notch]

TtH 2 ||ASSAIL||

||ASSAIL MENTIONED ASSAIL MENTIONED WE WERE INVESTIGATING THAT MYSTERY||

[hollow falcon]

tth 1 ||crone is such a funny character. Her and baruk taking apart old histories is fun. But a lot of anomandaris hype in this chapter…||

[jaunty turret]

chapter 13 is 80% [DG 13] ||Duiker||

of course

[rapid notch]

TtH 2 ||a cult of itkovian?||

[jaunty turret]

[DG general] ||Seven Cities people generally have darker skin than Malazans right?||

||or is there way too much diversity in both places that we can't generalize||

||i do think I've noted down the skin colours of many characters. i don't remember them by memory but the general impression i got was that the Malazans were overall paler. i don't think erikson actually describes skin colours as much as i want though.||

[rapid notch]

||my book says seven and eight||

[sly tartan]

||yes as a product of it being a desert continent i believe||

[rustic flower]

||Must have been a quote from Dust of Memes||

[clear furnace]

my copy is an epubized version of a kindle

TTH 2 ||I am 95% sure that there are 6 relations of Rake left in the group after Phaed died||

[indigo lotus]

The edge of my bonehunters dust jacket caught on the zip in my bag on the plane and a chunk ripped 😔

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||it's so crazy that fisher is apparently part of this book||

[clear furnace]

||what if it's some other guy who knows really obscure stanzas from Fisher's songs?||

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||calling them proofs of the goblets' value is genius||

he is just the best

TtH 3 ||lmaooooo scorch remembering the cuts in his grandmother's arms||

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||glad to see gruntle even if his life kinda sucks and people he likes keep dying||

[mossy nova]

At the lake again! Hoping to get a ton of reading done

TtH 2 epigraph ||Written like Fisher is inside Dragnipur||

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||Torvald Nom is back. The guy behind the assassinations is kinda valid even though he's dumb for targeting the former Bridgeburners. And CUTTER IS HERE. And Sister Spite is hot. Many thoughts.||

TtH 3 ||I really wonder what it is that they're now aware of that is the great danger Darujhistan faces||

||Most importantly, Mogora has called that Iskaral Pust will face his nemesis. I can't wait.||

||inb4 his nemesis is a random animal and not Kruppe||

[mossy nova]

A damn bug crawled into my book and now there’s bug mush between my pages

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||Coltaine's army is up against 3 armies each of whom outnumber the Malazans by a lot and have also modified the terrain to their advantage. can't see how Coltaine gets out of this without massive damage tbh.||

[grim plank]

TTH 4 ||more thoughts later but the Kallor POV was amazing||

[clear furnace]

TTH 4 ||is Kallor blorbo? or ||

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||But just think – Iskaral Pust's narration is itself being told by Kruppe!||

||the hatch too small for the mule...||

@clear furnace ||is the coin cutter just took out the coin?||

[hollow falcon]

||i like the little narratorial insertions kruppe does, like in chapter 1 when he makes fun of the bard in the phoenix inn||

[rapid notch]

okay

it's happening

this is not a drill

@hollow falcon you know how long i've been waiting for this

TtH 3 ||RALLICK. NOM. IS. AWAKE.||

[hollow falcon]

||hes back baby||

[rapid notch]

||reminder i'm not even like. particularly a fan of him. i'm just absolutely obsessed with the dangling plot point of him walking into the azath house and then sleeping for six books.||

[clear furnace]

is that rhetorical?

[clear furnace]

||Everyone knows mules are superior to horses in every way. Including the navigation of hatches.||

[rapid notch]

no

TtH 3 ||VORCAN IS OUT. JUST HOW BIG OF A THREAT IS SHE, THAT BARUK IS CONCERNED? I MEAN, SHE WAS VERY CAPABLE OF KILLING HIM. BUT HOW BIG OF A DEAL IS THIS?||

||it's so funny that ganoes had been squatting here||

[clear furnace]

TTH 3 ||afaik it's a different coin that he's using to try (and fail) to aura farm||

[rapid notch]

TtH 3 ||a woman in all black is atop a building thinking of her future. i don't know if this is vorcan scheming or if it's apsalar here and the dramatis personae was just being a goober not including her.||

||a cloaked man considers whether or not he should make a public return? is this just rallick?||

[clear furnace]

TTH 3 ||gotta share my fave Raest quotes for posterity||

||Rallick frowned at Raest. ‘The house,’ he said, ‘it is your prison, too.’
A desiccated shrug that made bones squeak. ‘The stresses of owning property.’||

|| ‘Will you now leave, never to return? Abandoning me to eternal solitude, with naught but cobwebs in my bed and bare cupboards in the kitchen, with mocking draughts and the occasional faint clatter of dead branches against shutters? And the odd scream or two as something unpleasant is devoured by earth and root in the yard. Will you simply leave me to this world, assassin?’
Rallick Nom stared at the Jaghut. ‘I had no idea my unconscious presence so eased your loneliness, Raest.’
‘Such insensitivity on your part should not surprise me.’
‘My answer is yes, I will indeed leave you to your world.’
‘You lack gratitude.’
Rallick drew his cloak round his shoulders and checked his gear. There was old blood but it simply flaked off like black snow. ‘Forgive me. Thank you, Raest, for the kick in the head.’
‘You are welcome. Now leave – I grow bored.’||

[rapid notch]

banger

[rapid notch]

TtH 4 ||A mysterious guy with a sword washes up?||

||i'm getting dassem vibes||

||this is so metal. i've decided i'm here for it. hell yeah eat that bear's heart.||

[hollow falcon]

Tth 2 ||the way endest’s experience holding up moon’s spawn is a metaphor for the andii depression is so good||

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||how are the sappers willingly getting trampled by Wickan cavalry just to preserve momentum? they also buried themselves in the battlefield before the battle was about to take place. they're way too ridiculous.||

[sly tartan]

||that was my reaction lol. i felt since theyd gone so far as burying themselves before battle, surely they had a better option than throwing their bodies under the horses||

[sly tartan]

hoc 9 ||what a crazy off hand comment. implying there was a chaining in the last 7 years? that it was the most recent one and its happened multiple times? i guess the timeline would line up for dassems death being the most recent chaining then? and a previous one was a 1000 years ago when burn went to sleep. wonder why he needed multiple? also love kalams assertion that cotillion could have just shanked the crippled god and that would have fixed everything. silly cotillion, why didnt he think of that?||

[tiny helm]

Hoc 9 ||thank you for sharing that Ive been looking for/wanting in text confirmation of some of that and couldn't remember if we ever got it||

[sly tartan]

hoc 9 ||omg the azalan uses cow tools||

[sly tartan]

i think that link might have spoilers but idk who for

[tiny helm]

Tag says all

[sly tartan]

oh i didnt even click on it cuz i was scared

[rustic flower]

The preview thumbnail seems to unspoiler the start of the spoiler tagged text though?

[clear furnace]

could you edit this to spoiler tag the link

as xenfr pointed out the preview text is currently showing

[grim plank]

TTH 5 ||start of chapter 5 is one of the greatest things I've ever read and I have a lot to say about the theme of finding meaning and joy in the world or giving in to hopelessness (the Kallor POV about banality followed immediately by Kruppe's about how nothing is insignificant is genius), but I also have very limited time so I'm just going to keep reading. I just hit the Duiker POV and this chapter is just banger after banger. we are so back||

[clear furnace]

||it's worrying just how joyous Kruppe can make a woman cheating on her husband sound ||

[grim plank]

||the "come" joke was the cherry on top||

||I'm so glad we got to see the banter between the two guys immediately after, as the background noise to Torvald's break-in, it was perfect||

[hollow falcon]

||the experience of reading TTH is getting through a section, thinking "this is a masterpiece", and then forgetting it immedietely because the next one is somehow better||

[clear furnace]

||Torvald's break-in that involves banging someone else's wife at that||

[mossy nova]

MOI this prose is amazing

[jaunty turret]

[Deadhouse Gates Chapter 13]

||His mind over a thousand leagues away, Kalam lightly touched the engraved sigil.* Blackdog . . . we were warring against mosquitoes and leeches, poisonous snakes and blood-sucking lizards. Supply lines cut, the Moranth putting back when we needed them the most . . . and this sigil I remember, there on a ragged standard, rising above a select company of Brood’s forces.
What did that bastard call himself? The High King? Kallor . . . the High King without a kingdom. Thousands of years old, if legends speak true, perhaps tens of thousands. He claimed to have once commanded empires, each one making the Malazan Empire no larger than a province. He then claimed to have destroyed them by his own hand, destroyed them utterly. Kallor boasted he had made worlds lifeless ...
And this man now stands as Caladan Brood’s second in command. And when I left, Dujek, the Bridgeburners and the reformed Fifth Army were about to seek an alliance with Brood.
Whiskeyjack . . . Quick Ben . . . keep your heads low, friends. There’s a madman in your midst. . .*||

[rapid notch]

||kallor ||

[jaunty turret]

||this feels big and it lines up with Memories of Ice being about Founding Race stuff||

||Kallor's probably a K'Chain Che'Malle or a Forkrul Assail who are said to have died out with only the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut continuing to war||

||and the Imperial Warren contains remnants of a world he made lifeless||

||he says the Imass were only children when he ruled and based on what we know from Gardens, only the Jaghut and Imass seemed to have intensely fought. so the other 2 may have died out due to internal struggles.||

[jaunty turret]

||also empires plural is crazy||

||and each one making the Malazan Empire look like a province is crazier. the world seems to be much bigger than what i've seen so far.||

[clear furnace]

TTH 6 ||is this the first confirmation of who Traveller is? If so, its fitting that Shadowthrone does it offhandedly. I enjoy the magically reorienting throne. ||

||the thousands of writhing, singing scarecrows is quite the visual. Also I didn't really get until this reread that Clip is the youngest person in the party but probably thinks he's the eldest. Slightly explains his stupid idea of hanging out in the evil ass poison tavern. ||

||I think that Endest initially thought Rake was asking him to do some sort of sorcery which is what made him say "Sire, I cannot" but it's funny to imagine he thought Rake was saying that Endest would have to sleep with the High Priestess because Spinnock is busy ||

||Let Darkness receive my every breath
With her own.
Let our lives speak in answer unto death
Never alone.||
||Epigraph worthy tbh||

||I always appreciated how much this book cares about questioning the nature of Itkovian's sacrifice and overall beliefs||
||Spinnock while seeing people sneeze up black goo that's starting to coat the walls and floors "Hmm, I wonder what move the Seerdomin will make in our game 👶" ||

||Too bad he’d had to kill every child he begat. No doubt that left most of his wives and lovers somewhat disaffected. But he had not been so cruel as to hesitate, had he? No. Why, he’d tear those ghastly babes from their mothers’ arms not moments after they’d tumbled free of the womb, and was that not a true sign of mercy? ||
||good guy Kallor. Speaking of Kallor, I forgot he goes on this roadtrip. ||

||There's only one demon I know who would slice up a bunch of slavers and who rides a Jhag horse...||

TTH 7

||Glanno squinted over. ‘He’ll wake up when he can’t breathe, soon as the rat goes for it. A silver council says he swallows instead of spitting out.’

At the voicing of a wager Reccanto Ilk’s watery grey eyes sharpened and he said, ‘I’ll take that one. Only what if he does both? Swallows then chokes and spits out? When you say “swallows” you got to mean he chews if he has to.’||
||Reccanto Ilk is the type of guy to always ask clarifying quibbles about discord polls||
||‘He was,’ chimed in Glanno Tarp. ‘Look at us, we’re short maybe six, seven – we can’t be going nowhere any time soon.’||
||Glanno Tarp is the type of guy to make a six seven joke||
||putting some Mott Irregulars in the Trade Guild was a stroke of genius ||

||goddamn Challice's passage was depressing||

||‘What brought you back?’ Murillio asked.
The question stopped him. ‘A conceit, maybe.’
‘What kind of conceit?’
The city is in danger. It needs me. ‘Oh,’ he said, turning to the door, ‘the childish kind.||
||that's why we love you Cutter||

||based Kruppe saving the people on the debt list||

||Harllo, who so loved the sun, was destined to wake in darkness, and mayhap he was never again to see the day’s blessed light.
Out on the lake the water glittered with golden tears.
As if the sun might relinquish its hard glare and, for just this one moment, weep for the fate of a child.||
||I knew it was coming but it still hit just as hard as the first time||

[hollow falcon]

||it is technically confirmed earlier in return of the crimson guard||

[clear furnace]

||oh that makes sense||

[hollow falcon]

||it is just said straight out in the epilogue||

[jaunty turret]

[Deadhouse Gates Chapter 13] ||not really something to do with this chapter but i've thought about how it's evident that Felisin, and to a smaller extent Minala, are written in a way where they may annoy readers by being unreasonable to their companions even though they're only acting in good nature. it's Felisin mostly. and yeah if you stop think, the way she is to people obviously makes sense but there's still that initial spark of annoyance and dislike at least in me. maybe some others are more annoyed than i am. but stuff like this should be the last thing bothering anyone when a lot of the main characters in the series, mostly ones associated with the Malazan Empire, have very questionable morals. i love them all and they're complicated people doing what they feel they can and should but that is just true about them. i would expect anyone who has read upto this would've definitely mulled over about this but i doubt it's constantly on the front of everyone's mind like i would expect Felisin being aggravating to be. it's funny how Felisin's spiteful behaviour is presented loud and clear and in a manner encouring knee jerk judgement while stuff like the Bridgeburners planning to light Daujhistan on fire is just thrown in casually. i love that the reader is being put into this headspace to challenge the application of their moral judgements.||

[hollow falcon]

||malazan made me realize how morally biased readers are to characters that are hot/funny/interesting, and i use the bridgeburner example often||

[clear furnace]

||Felisin is the most over hated character in the series from what I have seen of the broader community||

[rapid notch]

i'm so glad you get it

[clear furnace]

dhg 13 || I didnt dislike her but I will admit it took me rereading dhg to really get what felisins character was doing ||

[hollow falcon]

||felisin is such a unique character||

[clear furnace]

||Erikson wrote an essay about this (although comparing Felisin to Apsalar instead of too the Bridgeburners). There is a minor spoiler to future books in there but I think it's still worth reading in converation with your message (once you've finished DHG) https://www.facebook.com/steveneriksonofficial/posts/from-a-wounded-placeapsalar-and-felisinin-deadhouse-gatesthe-suspicion-abides-a-/294794078668154/||

[jaunty turret]

real life made me realize that as well

[jaunty turret]

||i just want to give her a hug and get her back to her old life man||

will read that essay later

oh only after finishing the book

alright

[clear furnace]

yeah, there are a few mentions to later DHG stuff

the future book event is quite minor

[clear furnace]

@rapid notch have you read this essay?

[rapid notch]

yeah

i've also read the youtube comments that inspired it and i just opened them again lol

[clear furnace]

SLA ||imagine if Sanderson was based enough to write a long, eloquent essay defending Moash after reading comments on the Moash shardcast episode's comment section 😔 ||

[rapid notch]

DHG all ||it really shocks me that people will write essays on how they don't respet felisin when she literally does not even do anything bad. like the worst thing she does is say mean things to others. and i guess she intends to kill baudin but she doesn't even succeed and just gets taken advantage of. i was aware there was "felisin discourse" before reading it and expected her to be some kind of "girl who commits war crimes" type character and instead it's just her being kinda mean to others around her when they're all in an awful situation.||

[clear furnace]

HoC ||yeah, I can understand someone like Karsa creating discourse™, especially without later books to build on his character, but Felisin's literal only crime is annoying readers by being mean to people||

eh, you know this isn't RG it's just DHG HoC

[rapid notch]

no it's HoC

[clear furnace]

true

[rapid notch]

reaper's gale all ||it's really interesting how similar she is to udinaas, actually, because i feel like i would describe her in dhg and udinaas in rg in basically the exact same way. someone who has been through horrible things, and is continuing to go through horrible things, being kinda mean to their companions. i think udinaas really hit me in rg because of how well it makes the rhetorical point that like... literally is there anything he does that's actually bad in any way and isn't him just defending himself from how awful others are constantly being to him? i think udinaas's story is better mostly because erikson was a better writer by that point. but felisin's is kind of more challenging and interesting. she's definitely more outwardly awful instead of primarily just clapping back at people, but her day to day is also filled with extreme suffering and risk of death, while udinaas is mostly safe and cared for in a physical sense during rg. i dunno. they aren't 1:1 but i don't think people largely react to udinaas like they do to felisin either. which is exactly erikson's point.||

@jaunty turret did you watch philip chase's one piece group discussions as he read through it

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||i will definitely have to reread the Duiker part of this chapter (which is the majority) because i was sleepy when i was reading it and wasn't focusing well. I've felt he has had subtle biases in certain things and i think there's stuff to say about that from this chapter but i haven't put it together. ||

[clear furnace]

||I think some people gloss over/forget that Fear literally enslaved Udinaas and instead they think of Fear just as the "good guy brother of Trull" ||

[rapid notch]

rg all ||udinaas calling out fear's hero complex and 'honor' is so valid and based||

||literally the only reason he isn't giving udinaas orders as a slave still is that silchas is there and is the real big dog||

[clear furnace]

https://klipy.com/gifs/tiger-tiger-woods

[jaunty turret]

think I've only watched the whole cake island one

wait group discussions?

none

I've watched the wci video

[rapid notch]

it overlaps with this discussion in an amusing way but not one that has any relevance to you if you didn't watch those

[jaunty turret]

oh he's going through GGK as well

[rapid notch]

yeah those videos are really good

you should watch those

[jaunty turret]

i love brandon but... he's not that guy

[tiny helm]

SLA ||that would require the fandom hating moash not being what brandon intends/wants||

[rapid notch]

TtH 4 ||Wait hang on hang on. Is Phaed's ghost with Nimander because she died in Lether, and is now another andii wraith?||

[rapid notch]

||okay he was named dragnipurake way back then. kinda feeling like the sword was named after him.||

||i think i got confused around MT or BH about like. what is tiam? is tiam mother dark? but it seems not, since mommy dark is calling out rake for killing tiam. did he just do that? but i thought tiam stuff made him a soletaken, and he already had scales when he met endest earlier.||

||or well, i guess he did that before and just came to talk to mother dark about it now||

||i dunno. i feel like i have a clear sense of what i know and don't know here. i don't feel an urge yet to go on a long rant trying to figure out the parts i don't know. i just don't know them.||

[clear furnace]

||tiam is the mother of dragons||

[rapid notch]

||yeah but there was a point where they were like "mother tiam" and i wondered how related the concepts were||

[hollow falcon]

||rake being soultaken muddies the lineage a bit||

[sly tartan]

||i never hated felisin, but i absolutely did hate/was disgusted by/annoyed with baudin and heboric. like if felisin was a grown woman maybe id have been more critical but shes 14 or 15 and shes gone through all that and wise old heboric trades barbs back at this traumatised child instead of just tanking it or ignoring it or even saying a single kind word||

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||Felisin is a massive empathy test, and I'm sad to see so many people fail it. It's so clear why she acts the way she does. She's a child!||

[crude cosmos]

SLA ||Tbf, I think Moash was on-track to be a fascinating character but Brandon was more interested in him being an evil counterpart to Kaladin. Erikson would have done a far better job with Moash.||

[sly tartan]

||tbf i think its really easy to disconnect from the context of her situation. like i think in a visual medium itd probably easier cuz then youd see the expressions/hear the tone more clearly. like it was very obvious to me how much felisin was suffering and struggling only cuz i was keeping that in my mind, the text doesnt really do much to remind of that often. like it does, but its easy to get distracted from those details by other plotlines or whatever the hell is goin on with heboric. plus i think theres also a level of what she went through and the lack of support she had and the helpless misery of it all just being really depressing, so its kinda like that effect of where you see someone horribly upset and it makes you feel bad but you cant help them (for whatever reason), and so to stop feeling horrible you look away, or think it cant be that bad to lessen the severity of the empathetic response. and tbh for me, while i was very empathetic to felisin, i think that did come at the expense of me having a lot less empathy to spare for the chain of dogs and all that misery||

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||I keep talking about this, but I believe this is the result of Erikson not letting a character's emotions colour the internal monologue very much. For example, when someone gets hit with a devastating blow, the text doesn't feel like you're reading from the point of view of someone who has been gravely injured. This is something Esslemont does, but he does it badly.||
|| I don't relate to the empathy budget thing. I managed to feel sad for both Felisin and the Chain of Dogs (and the Mappo/Icarium plot). Up to that point, I hadn't cared much for the Malazan Empire but the Chain of Dogs had normally otherwise violent conquerors perform honourable and beneficent acts on the behalf of the mostly innocent refugees. Though, I will admit, I lost a lot of empathy for the population of Seven Cities, especially after the child crucifixion part and Vathar Crossing||

||Oh, and all the rape too||

[sly tartan]

dhg all (just to be safe cuz i cant remember exact chapter numbers and reveal moments) ||its interesting you mention vathar crossing cuz am pretty sure that was korbolo dom who orchestrated that, who prior to the rebellion had been a malazan commander given great military power over seven cities natives and was presumably a cruel bastard back then as well. true he turns to "help" the seven cities, but it was the malazan empire that had created and, until that point, endorsed him. for me tho, the critical point where i struggled to develop and maintain empathy for the chain of dogs was from what the sappers did to the peasant army right after duiker first joined them (waiting until as many were on the bridge as possible before blowing them up)||

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||It was Korbolo Dom's idea, but it was Seven Cities men who carried it through, even down as far as being messengers to manipulate Coltaine into wading into a death trap. And I have little sympathy for the peasant army that murdered and raped women and children in Hissar. They were as much enemy soldiers as any other and they would have done unspeakable things to the refugees should they have reached the Chain. It simply makes sense to kill as many of them as possible.||

[sly tartan]

||im hesitant to assume that all the seven cities natives endorse and would indulge in these acts. erikson never wrote anything to indicate that isnt the case, and honestly went to great lengths to portray how the empire had brought "civilisation" to this "savage" land and the natives are ungrateful and idiotic for rebelling. but this perspective coincidentally is always coming from a supporter of the malazan empire. why did the seven cities rebel though? i dont know, the perspectives we read dont really have an answer, and the best indication is that its more just because of drynjha bringing the apocalypse rather than anything related to the malazans. i wanna read between the lines, but i dunno if im supposed to. but i cant bring myself to accept/trust the malazan version of events. not excusing or ignoring what seven cities people have done, but surely theres more nuance to them than "they actually are just all savages who brutalise for the sake of brutalising the first chance they get"||

[tiny helm]

DHG ||tbh the vibe I kinda got was that both sides were a mix of people, with conflict having let the worst people on both sides indulge in their worsts. I expect the malazan conquest was pretty brutal, and the rebellion just as such. I found people to sympathize with on both sides||

||which... I know "both sides are people/the same" isnt the most revolutionary or even popular take these days, but thats the vibe I got here. Both sides have good people and bad people and both sides can fall into cruelty and violence||

[clear furnace]

HoC ||as far as I remember there are various seven cities cultures who are uninterested in the rebellion and are just living normal lives||

[sly tartan]

is this safe for me or super duper dangerous

[clear furnace]

uh, probably not safe

[tiny helm]

I wouldnt say its catatstrophic but probably best to avoid that

[sly tartan]

dhg all ||i mean we do know for certain that during the malazan conquest, the t'lan imass genocided (their favourite thing) the city of aren, completely cleaning it out. its implied and inferred that this wasnt intended and was a mistake n all that, but even then that still carried the air of "it was a mistake because it increased dissention and lessened the stability of the empire" and not "huh, we brought these genocidal killers here and they killed an entire city. are we the baddies?". ie, if they thought it was a move that benefitted the overall stability of the empire, they would have been fine with it||

[tiny helm]

||yeah that sounds right. Its been a while since I read dhg, I couldn't remember if we had any specific atrocities||

[sly tartan]

||my read (altho its not backed up in text) is that there was a bunch of other stuff like this, not on the same scale, but where it was acts of brutality that did benefit the stability of the empire and so the malazan perspectives we read dont think to bring it up cuz they view it as acceptable cost and that the "civilisation" they brought far outweighed anything they did. but i could just be makin that up cuz we pretty much never get seven cities perspectives on this stuff. except for the spiritwalker, who (supposedly wisely) recognised that the malazan empire would inevitably brutalise his city if he'd resisted by wiping out their army with a lil ditty and so he surrendered instead||

[sly tartan]

dhg all ||just read this essay, its interesting to see his summary of that plot in the gender switch. im presuming the only change was the gender switch, so his comments on baudin and heboric are supposed to be the same as in the book. and if thats the case i find this line really interesting

And for a literal metaphor, a character without faith has no hands with which to reach out to another person. Still, he’s doing what he can, weathering every bite and every scratch from the snared fox.
its definitely true heboric didnt reach out, and i can get that, its a difficult thing to do etc etc. but the weathering every bite and scratch?? nah i did not read that in the book. sometimes he'd deflect it or nullify it, but far more often i saw him bite back. so now im wondering, did erikson not intend that? did he see that as just weathering? cuz from my read, while heboric definitely didnt do the worst things to felisin or ever really anything all that bad singularly, the part he played was prolonging the suffering. rather than breaking the cycle of feuding and spiting (which could be accomplished by inaction), he'd indulge it, inadvertently encourage it in felisin. when shes cruel to him, then hes cruel to her, this makes her recognise shes been cruel, that she is cruel, that its acceptable for her to be a victim of cruelness, that shes done another horrible thing she cant take back, that this is who she is now and she cant break out of it. thats horrible and feels horrible and she cant control that (because shes an adolescent, and not an adult capable of effective emotional regulation) and says something cruel... and that cycle repeats

maybe im projecting that interpretation, cuz i definitely think i ended up disliking heboric a lot more than was intended by the end of DHG because of this read||

[clear furnace]

||my reading isn't that Erikson was describing Heboric as only weathering Felisin lashing out, but rather that Heboric was weathering the lashing out rather than reaching out and trying to more proactively "heal" (not the right word but I can't think of the a better term) ||

[sly tartan]

HoC minor ||it is neat to know tho that he envisions apsalar as similar to felisin but without the internal viewpoint. am only a lil bit into hoc pov's of apsalar, and i had been questioning if i was supposed to interpret depth of an individual under that surface, or if she was like turning into a cotillion clone or something (cuz i didnt know if he was magically taking over her mind as memories returned). so am glad to know its the former and shes internally dealing with the struggles of a bunch of this stuff and it isnt magically brushed over with something mysterious. excited to see more of her||

[sly tartan]

||thats fair, it was a small snippet of the essay and i dont think it was supposed to encompass the complexity of heborics role||

[clear furnace]

DHG all ||I think Erikson was trying to say that neither Heboric or Baudin handled it perfectly, and in fact the average reader might have a lower opinion of them if Felisin were a boy instead and therefore potentially more sympathetic ||

[sly tartan]

||ya thats fair i got that was his intent. i already had a lower opinion of them both and was already empathetic/sympathetic to felisin so i was guess i was lookin to dig deeper tbh i hadnt considered baudin was supposed to be conveyed as tavores nastiest most capable killer. but yeah thinkin back to the DHG prologue, would be very hard pressed to find a nastier more capable killer||

[clear furnace]

||at least the nastiest, most capable killer who Tavore had on hand and who was loyal enough to go through with this plan ||

[sly tartan]

HoC 6 ||speakin of this tho, something i was curious about and never really got answered (and may get answered eventually if those footprints were foreshadowing)... is rellock (i think thats his name) actually alive (as of appearing in DHG) and actually apsalars dad? he barely ever says anything in DHG and almost seems puppeted around like a zombie, even into manipulating apsalar towards dangerous tremorlor, and then as soon as theyre home he just dies. and like the most critical thing to me is.... he never says her name? like before apsalar and before sorry. surely she had one, but i dont think he knew it, because that wasnt her dad, just a puppet. but then again he was brushed out of the story so quickly i dunno if i was supposed to interrogate this, or maybe he just literally was her dad and he was always a quiet kinda weird fellow and then dies because he wasnt fun to write||

[clear furnace]

HoC 6 answer in case you want it ||yes, he was her father. iirc the footsteps just indicate his soul was collected by Hood or one of Hood's servants ||

[sly tartan]

HoC 12 ||speakin of that plan, am a bit confused on what the long term outcome was. just return felisin to Unta after a couple weeks when the cull has ended and everything would be chill? or like fake her death in the otataral mines? if the whole point of sacrificing her sister was for political gain, how would that not get undone by her reappearing again?||

[sly tartan]

||thanks for clarifying, i was suspecting there was nothing special there so i can close off that avenue||

[rapid notch]

||i think the idea was to get her out of the mines and into some kind of safe and acceptable (but covert) life||

||i don't think she had the power to scheme a specific outcome, she was just like "baudin get her out" and then it turned out that 1. that wasn't enough to stop the abuse and 2. a rebellion happened||

[crude cosmos]

Early HoC ||Baudin was lowkey terrible at his job. I don't get the reasoning of "[Felisin] didn't want to leave." Just take her or engineer a reason for her to leave! Make sure she doesn't get attached to anything in the first place! Dolt!||

[hollow falcon]

||well he was separated from her almost as soon as he got there||

[sly tartan]

||with how effective a mega-killer he is and his ability to escape/hide/conspire with heboric, its very hard for me to accept he was powerless to what beneth was doing until the finale escape. maybe there was legitimate reasoning only available in a baudin PoV that erikson had in mind, but from my view with the skills and capabilities baudin had, it was a choice i judge him for, to not do more. what i think is most likely is that he just didnt think what was happening to felisin was all that bad and the escape plan/other concerns took priority. tbh i wouldnt be surprised if tavore had basically ordered him that way, ie "she'll suffer some abuse and thats okay, your job isnt to stop that, just make sure she escapes"||

[hollow falcon]

||if i remember correctly he was forced to do individual labor, and he was setting up their escape at the time while felisin was off with beneth. And he is a good fighter but he is no kalam and skullcup has armed guards||

[rapid notch]

||afaik he's a talon but in a sort of "dusting off his dad's knives from the attic" kind of way, not a way where he's super experienced and hyper competent||

||the more competent people would all be known be laseen||

||100% agreed that he sucks and should have done better by felisin in every way though||

[sly tartan]

||ngl i am biased to assume every character is hyper-competent. or atleast, i was by that point and his performance in the prologue basically indicated to me "oh this is yet another super-badass" and yet this was the book that gave me my soiled soldier kulp so i probs should have been more fair in assessing baudin||

[rapid notch]

||i think it can be hard to gauge context because sometimes someone seems hyper badass because they're like. competent and have energy and are up against starving peasants.||

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||tbh i only remember Heboric tanking the barbs for the most part||

||i do expect there to be moments where he doesn't and bites back||

[rapid notch]

DHG ||i think heboric geeeeeenerally went for "wise mentor trying to dissuade her from her current self-harming path" but the thing is, was dealing with too much of his own issues to say any particularly helpful wisdom, and delivered it in a way that generally landed more like scolding than help||

[jaunty turret]

yeah

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||Yeah, Heboric straight-up calls Felisin a whore at least once||

[hollow falcon]

||he also has no actual power of her which makes it rough||

[sly tartan]

early HoC ||tbh i dont get why faking felisins death or just simply disappearing her wasnt viable. like i get why there was an advantage to looking impartial and sacrificing felisin, but was that necessary? i just dont feel inclined to believe there was only the two options of "(fake) enslave her or kill her", altho i guess in her naive view its possible she didnt think the enslaving would be that bad and itd be super quick so it was the easiest option. cuz tbh DHG/MoI gave me the impression tavore was super competent mega smart but then in HoC its just revealed shes basically just some random woman a thousand miles in over her head. which is neat||

[hollow falcon]

||i think malazan is very consistent of no character, no matter how smart they are, being able to plan N steps ahead. Tavore did what she thought was best but ultimately luck won out||

[clear furnace]

||Tavore felt she needed to prove her loyalty to Laseen and the Empire. A public "sacrifice" of Felisin was required ||

[sly tartan]

||id say he has implicit power from being an adult. things he says or dont say, does or doesnt do all have implicit power because theyre coming from an adult. so like if she trusts/respects him, when he says mean things it really cuts her, if she doesnt trust/respect him, hes an uncertain factor and she cant fathom him. like a really telling moment of that is when heboric is talking to baudin but excluding felisin and she gets so paranoid, because ultimately shes a kid and she doesnt know what the adults around her are talking about/deciding to do about her, and she lacks that power||

[boreal glade]

DhG || it was more like " you are trying to be the "dad I never had" character too quick for a person I have recently met and I don't want to listen to you"

And Heboric is double dipping in giving both kinds of fatherhood in such situations and that just creates a very weird reaction ||

[rapid notch]

HoC general ||I think the unanswerable nature of the question is what makes it compelling. We just don't know the pressures Tavore was aware of. Maybe it would have been fine. Maybe five months later Tavore would screw up and then get blamed for being a corrupt noble and another purge would occur. Her brother was part of an apparent traitorous rebellion. Nobles were getting slaughtered in the streets. We know so little about the political vibes in Unta; maybe it was falling apart so badly that this seemed necessary. Maybe Tavore overcompensated because of how bad it seemed for nobles at the time. Maybe she really did screw up and ruin her sister's life for no gain.||

[sly tartan]

||ya thats the thing, what would have happened if she hadnt done that though? would that have ended her career as adjunct? would it have permanently stained her record? idk enough about the in-world/out-world politics to know||

[boreal glade]

Yeah I think I recall that, just a bit hazily

[rapid notch]

||What's giving you your view that Tavore is a normal woman?||

[sly tartan]

||shes a lesbian||

[hollow falcon]

||i think you are expecting an unreasonable amount of competence and foresight from two characters who are broken in their own way. Heboric and Baudin dont let her in on the plan because she is a child and they dont trust her, which is validated when she misses the reference the guard makes before they leave||

[rapid notch]

||it is an awful situation and nobody is in a position to be their best self. felisin is the least culpable but they all deserved better.||

[sly tartan]

early HoC ||ya i do like that uncertainty aspect of it. during dhg and moi i did not like tavore at all cuz (with the unfounded hyper-competent impression at the time) i assumed the felisin plan was like coldly calculated by her and she was very unfeeling about it all. and i thought the plan was stupid so i wasnt all that keen on her if her hyper-competence resulted in plans like this. but now that i have more context and seein tavores perspective, the whole thing is more compelling and immersive||

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||Baudin didn't really have to have sex with her and then foil her plan just to teach her the lesson that she doesn't always have the agency that she thinks she does and that it was the same with Beneth and she needs to forget about him and cooperate. she did manage to understand what he was trying to say but it ended up being ineffecitve anyway since she immediately forgot about it.||

[sly tartan]

||it is very likely i have over-estimated competence, i usually err on the side of that with pretty much all characters so its a delightful surprise when someone (rarely, from my perspective) isnt. but in this, this isnt a competence thing. yes they dont let her in on the plan because shes a child, which was the right thing to do, but like, if they recognise shes a child in this, why not in other stuff? like heboric cannot both have the power to exclude her from plans because shes a child, but then pretend like he doesnt have power over her at other times simply because he doesnt have hands||

[rapid notch]

HoC gen ||What makes Tavore such a narratively fascinating character is how she puts into focus what we assume without full info. You can read her as a cold, competent genius or a normal woman in over her head. How can you really know which, with so little? It makes me think about how the line between the two is blurry in the first place, that the exact same traits can seem like one or the other depending on circumstances and luck. Is she cold because she's uncaring or cold because she's forcing herself to do what's necessary? From a military perspective, who we consider a great commander feels like it's mostly retroactive. Coltaine is great because he did all that. What has Tavore done yet? What will happen when she is tested? In the case of Felisin, that would be a time where we judge Tavore as less competent simply because she failed. But most of why she failed was factors never in her control to begin with. We could have gotten an outcome that leaves us thinking Tavore is a genius who loves her sister with no real change in her own actions, only circumstances.||

[hollow falcon]

||he doesnt have power over her bc he doesnt have hands? I dont know what he was supposed to do once felisin closed herself off. He cant talk to her. He cant make her do anything. Later he goes blind. So he is just stuck||

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||Do we consider Baudin having sex with Felisin rape? Legally by contemporary standards, it certainly would be?||

[hollow falcon]

||independent of the label it was certainly a bad decision||

[sly tartan]

||no thats what we were talking about, he does talk to her, bite back at her when shes mean to him. baudin does close off and barely says anything except when they have "sex". but heboric keeps using his words, and from my read they often were quite nasty. in return to felisin being nasty, yes, but again hes an adult and shes a child||

[rapid notch]

||By the letter of the law yes, no idea how it would play out in court when she was doing attempted murder. Probably not well for her.||

[hollow falcon]

||i just think he is just a traumatized as her given everything he has gone through, so i give felisin compassion for the mistakes she makes, and i give heboric compassion for the ones he makes too||

[rapid notch]

||everyone can agree baudin deserves the least compassion of the 3. because the rape.||

[jaunty turret]

[DG 13] ||it's somewhat unclear to me how Heboric's stance on rescuing Felisin evolved. it's seems like taking her along was a last minute decision but they also seem to have enough food and water for 3 people to make the journey planned ahead by Duiker's people?||

[hollow falcon]

Dhg all ||yeah baudin is a bad person, but he is also the only person with felisin at the end. All the better people abandoned her. Not a coincidence after that that she ascends ||

[clear furnace]

||I think it was last minute because they weren't sure they'd be able to force her to go ||

[sly tartan]

||iirc heboric wanted to take the other guy at the prison who was helping their escape and it was that guys decision to give up that place so felisin could take it||

[hollow falcon]

||there are two distinct escape plans that get merged from what i understand||

[jaunty turret]

ah. i probably just forgot then.

[sly tartan]

||to be clear by ascend do you mean when drynjha takes notice in her? i hadnt considered that ascension 🤔 ||

[hollow falcon]

Dhg all ||that is an ascension yes||

||she becomes the whirlwind goddess in the same way kellanved and dancer became shadowthrone and cotillion||

||under slightly different circumstances||

[rapid notch]

Night of Knives ||felisin should have snuck into an azath house while looking at the camera like bugs bunny||

[hollow falcon]

nok ||fradulent Temper merchants both of them||

[jaunty turret]

i think it's better if you guys specify DHG all or something because "DHG" has been used directly in response to me multiple times with no spoilers

[sly tartan]

dhg all ||was this supposed to be clear by the end of DHG 😭 i had not inferred this at all i thought she was still toeing the line in being a mortal prophet for drynjha, specifically not going too far into ascension like the old shaik would have done which made leoman sussy||

[jaunty turret]

so i thought i could click this one

[sly tartan]

ya i was gonna say i think some of this stuff is dhg all

[hollow falcon]

Oh my bad

I usually just use the name for the book

[jaunty turret]

nah it's fine

pretty confusing to keep track

i was already assuming it was happening so no big deal

[hollow falcon]

I also forgot you hadnt finished lmao

[hollow falcon]

||i think she goes by shaik. Which is why heboric cries||

[sly tartan]

||i swear her internal thoughts show that she hasnt actually given herself all the way to the goddess and the goddess knows it. heboric thinks she has but its just another untruth shes said to him, and this time he doesnt catch it. or i guess maybe i was supposed to infer her did and that she was speaking true? lemme grab the book...||

[clear furnace]

DHG all ||I think both of you are correct||

||she does have internal thoughts referring to the goddess but sometimes she doesn't ||

[sly tartan]

dhg all ||maybe something changed after this scene, or maybe felisin is lying/been manipulated into ascending, but i read it for what it is. she made a deal with the goddess to not ascend. to get all the powers, but remain mortal felisin, and leoman recognised that she'd half done this. specifically hadnt opened the book to Ascend, and instead for once finally done something her own way. but everyone must believe she ascended for the ruse to work. but then i suppose by that belief, the ascension does work. but still specifically under felisins guidance, not beholden to or inheriting drynjha. if im wrong about all this, its gonna shake my understanding of her going forwards massively lmao||

[rapid notch]

||it's okay castle. ascension is just like warren wounds.||

[clear furnace]

DHG All ||the book stops using "Felisin" to describe her in the narration, in the last scene we get this||

||Sha’ik was silent for a long minute, then, without turning, she said, “Where is your army, Korbolo Dom?”
[...Later in the capter...]
She ignored the shouts of surprise and dismay, ignored the questions flung at her, even as they rose into demands. Raraku—the heart of my newfound power. I shall need that embrace…if I am to defeat this fear—this terror—of my sister. Oh, Goddess, guide me now…||
||the book calls her "Sha'ik" but we also get an internal thought that refers to the Goddess as someone else||

||so it's fluid||

[sly tartan]

HoC 8 ||tbh i just read that as her embracing the role she needs to play, felisin must be forgotten so that there are no slip ups, and to that end she gives the name to a child and resolves to only refer to and regard herself as shaik. i presumed this was the deal, she'd do everything drynjha wanted, as long as she gets what she wants. and this was consistent with felisin learning paran was alive and crying into heborics arms. that is distinctly a mortal felisin thing to do, exposed under all that armor and illusion by the love and relief of the existence family member who hasnt betrayed her. i wouldnt be able to connect that reaction to someone who had truly ascended, become immortal, become drynjha||

[hollow falcon]

||i think it is intentionally ambiguous how much agency someone retains when ascending, but i do think it is an ascension||

hoc 8 ||i also think there is work in this book and dhg to connect what happened to apsalar to what happened to felisin, and apsalar is very suspect of her own agency||

||although i also think apsalar is being unfair to herself in that regard||

[crude cosmos]

DHG All ||Something magical obviously happens to Felisin because she inherits some/all of Sha'ik's memories wrt to her high mages. After that, it was unclear how much she was herself, but obviously there was a Felisin core because of the girl she adopts and her overwhelming fear of Tavore.||

[sly tartan]

hoc 8 ||i do definitely recognise the power that has been invested in her, that "cloak of drynjha descending", and the way my understanding of magic (narrative+power) understands ascension is as individuals becoming beholden to the overwhelming "narrative" of the magic while retaining limited mortal power. so the reason why i didnt interpret felisin as ascending was because i thought the deal imbalanced this. rather than her narrative being overwritten by the ascension, she still retains it (at her core she is still felisin in a way that cotillion and shadowthrone dont get to be dancer or kellanved. unless if they also did a deal rather than straight ascend). in this way i see felisin as closer to a mortal sword of drynjha (unless if those are considered ascendants). the narrative magic is still with drynjha, being gifted to felisin similar to how mages channel warrens of patrons. maybe its a distinction that doesnt matter to anyone else and ultimately doesnt matter, but i still hold my understanding that she is distinct from an ascendant. shes toeing the line very close, ya, and i think that could make her an ascendant inevitably, but in that case i still dont think she would become drynjha. altho.... hmm. the ascension of treach is a good example of how involuntary it can be. if everyone does think shes drynjha, even if she wasnt, i do think that will make her drynjha.... but i dont think thats happened just yet. it was a long time before treach ascended||

[sly tartan]

||im gonna figure these out. theyve become less of a priority cuz they piss me off but am gathering intel||

[hollow falcon]

Need more thoughts 😡

[grim plank]

TTH 5 ||well let's call a spade a spade, he raped someone else's wife||

[clear furnace]

||so erikson has explained that in that scene the wife is aware of what's happening and is into it which is why she talks about Torvald counting his money and talking about the elixir ||

||I do not think that this is the most obvious reading of the scene but that's what Erikson has said he meant the scene to be||

[grim plank]

||I can accept that interpretation as the scene progresses but definitely not at the start... and Torvald definitely did not care whether she was aware and consenting||

[hollow falcon]

||i think when i reread it, what erikson says is the only interpretation, but me and everyone else i know who reads it the first time takes it the rape way. Not the clearest scene||

[hollow falcon]

||there is a line that implies the wife does this often because she wants to get pregnant||

||which i think is meant to transition i to the next pov which i do not know if you got to||

[crude cosmos]

MoI ||I have no idea what a mortal sword even is lmfao||

[grim plank]

TTH 5 ||I did, I'm at the Mappo part. I'm very busy recently so I've barely had time to read let alone react. I want to share some more in depth thoughts this weekend|| (response to duck)

[clear furnace]

||but it is this weekend sapphic||

[grim plank]

yes and I'm still busy and should be packing rn

[clear furnace]

wow, I can't believe Duck was so insensitive as to ping you to distract you when you should be packing

[hollow falcon]

Toll the Hounds takes precedent

[grim plank]

honestly real. I've been very upset about having to do other things like work when I could be tolling the hounds

[boreal glade]

It would be that by any standards right? Why would it not be for theirs?

[sly tartan]

||from my understanding theyre largely a social construct that, like most social constructs, becomes invested with power and immutability, ie "this is the way it is because it is the way it is". and in this malazan world, when something is invested with power thats magical in comparison to our world. so rather than just being a cult leader who in our world would get arrested by the police for creating an illegal paramilitary organisation, in malazan they become the literal sword of a god, channelling that gods power. its a bit more complicated than just a social construct, because it still requires endorsement from the god, but.... its arguably possible that god is also a social construct. layers within layers

so the way felisin relates to this is that shes the cult leader who has been invested by the god. shes the closest one to the god, so nobody else can see a distinction, but there still is one. instead of being called "mortal sword", this is called "sha'ik". however, using this social construct understanding, i do think its feasible felisin could accidentally dethrone drynjha simply because if everyone thinks shes the goddess, no one will think the drynjha is the goddess anymore, and thus she'd lose the power she has over the narrative||

[crude cosmos]

DHG ||Different and antiquated ideas about consent. The idea of 'consent' isn't an objective truth of the universe and many different cultures will have many different ideas about it, and I don't know what the Malazan conception is.||

||I don't mean this as a defence in any way, it's just would Baudin think of himself as a rapist||

[sly tartan]

||i assume a lot of rapists dont think they are such and always find a justification or reasoning regardless, so the self-identification isnt the most reliable. what heboric/felisin thinks is a better judge. i cant remember if heboric ever learns about it though to express any opinion/perspective||

[crude cosmos]

DHG All||Felisin eventually realises that she was being raped in Skullcup when she receives Sha'ik's memories so I'd think she might count Baudin in that too.||

[sly tartan]

hoc 9 ||bro onrack is... idk how to describe him. he meets tiste liosan, theyre rude to him (he blew up their ward), and he immediately threatens (or more promises?) to genocide all of them cuz they were arrogant to him. im sure hes just an average t'lan imass tbh||

[wispy ibex]

BH ||just before the climax, in fiddlers game, he tosses quick Ben a card and it turns out to be lifestealer, and says “poor quick Ben’s got life stealer to deal with” ||

[crude cosmos]

NoK 4 ||Best chapter so far (because it has the least Kiska). Seeing the Siege of Y'Ghatan from Temper's PoV is fun and so is seeing what really happened to Dassem. Though, i was under the impression that there was far more magic involved. Whiskeyjack gave the idea that Dassem's death was a whole grand magical event but all we saw was there might have been a little bit of Hood stuff.||

[sly tartan]

hoc 10 ||flash of insight: l'oric is osric||

[rapid notch]

||i remember when that hit me||

[sly tartan]

||ngl biggest clue is that whenever someone hides their name, they do it in the most obvious and stupid way possible. but anyway ya he went over to heboric to yap about warning of the tiste and the heboric says they should watch out which makes loric go :O and heboric says hes suspicious for a hot second. without that lil suspicion clue i probs would have missed it||

[rapid notch]

You can tell I only stopped reading last night because I was really tired, I just couldn't focus

Cause TtH 5 ||is opening on some peak that I wouldn't choose to stop before unless I had to||

TtH 5 ||what the hell torvald||

||Oh this Harllo stuff is gonna be a lot huh. Already love this kid, and learning how Stonny feels indirectly is hitting me.||

[hollow falcon]

||i blame you specifically for this||

[rapid notch]

What

TtH 5 ||Should Bedek and Myrla be characters I remember?||

[hollow falcon]

no

[rapid notch]

TtH 5 ||DUIKER POV. actually insane how long it's been. last we saw was when he began to tell the story of the chain of dogs. so much has changed, and yet that still looms over the narrative, and we just wonder, now, how will it even feel to see the way someone like duiker feels about it||

||the narrative has moved on and hasn't, but he's still himself||

||We're just covering everyone in Kruppe's description, huh. This is crazy. I wonder if this Thordy stuff will reflect more of Duiker's mindset.||

||Gaz's god has hood vibes, but I feel like hood doesn't need to go get deaths like this. Hood gets plenty. Big C? maybe.||

@hollow falcon TtH 5 ||badass assassins. flirting vs. harassment. rallick nom vs. kalam.||

[hollow falcon]

||real||

[rapid notch]

TtH 5 ||EX-WIFE ALERT. ISKARAL PUST CONSIDERS HIMSELF DIVORCED. ALERT ALERT.||

TtH 5 ||Mappo talking to the guard is so funny||

||"Of course not. I mean, it's rare." oh darujhistan||

||much like spaceduck, i think pust only got married so he could get divorced and talk about his ex wife||

||this guard is kinda just a real one, he and mappo talking is a vibe||

[sly tartan]

hoc 10 ||its still so funny||

[clear furnace]

||Karsa 100% knows that statement would sound horrible to leoman but doesnt care||

[crude cosmos]

Bonehunters all ||That line is so funny considering what Leonman does in Y'Ghatan||

[clear furnace]

||good point, Leomans fall is pretty precipitous||

[sly tartan]

||leomans a fake friend he doesnt even say it smh||