#Aura Overhaul & April Marketplace Drop

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

short star
#

I don’t think that completely tracks. The combat changes increased overall power, but that doesn’t mean older systems aren’t part of the problem.

Something existing for 10 years without being an issue doesn’t mean it was inherently balanced, it just means the environment around it didn’t push it over the edge yet. Removing auras, then baking them into kits + adding extra power means both are at issue

opaque flower
#

To quote someone I saw in a feedback thread "Vamp aspect is DOA, they should have just left it as it was before with no change".

calm tinsel
#

this was always going to happen the moment it wasn't a free huge buff. "Make them permanent, make them toggles, let me turn off prayer drain in 99% of the game but let me keep other crazy stuff"

dreamy minnow
crimson vapor
#

The way vampyrism existed for 10 years was as the worse choice compared to other combat auras. That its no longer competing with at all, and you're made baseline stronger.

The way vampyrism did not exist for 10 years was on top of power buff from said combat auras, which is the proposal of the system where they dont have a new tradeoff.

worthy crane
crimson vapor
#

I feel like people focus on "well darkness is now mutually exclusive with it". Yeah, but the old thing it was mutually exclusive with is now on always by default!

And that thing was stronger than any aspect!

worthy crane
dreamy minnow
#

The old aura system was bad. You’re all saying the new system is bad because it’s not like the old system. Of course it isn’t. The old system had issues, and Jagex wants to take things in a different direction

spiral mortar
#

There was no necro berserker. And they deleted mahjaratt without refund too.

calm tinsel
#

most of the game hits so low that vamp is competitive with darkness if not better

worthy crane
crimson vapor
short star
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They added a buffed equilbrium, new perk that boosts ultimates and decreased skulls cd in living death - necro may not have ate anywhere close to how much the other styles did, but they definitely got fed in terms of losing maj

calm tinsel
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and the whole topic ignores that we're 10x stronger than almost anything we fight anyways. Every "we got nerfed in some way" is after we bring guns to a fistfight anyways. "Necro didn't get enough of a buff in the changes", even as "the worst style" it can still do everything fine and has crazy sustain

dreamy minnow
worthy crane
crimson vapor
#

New system isn't even bad.

I dare anyone to genuinely argue that mining is not inherently better now than on monday. Or woodcutting.

calm tinsel
#

They compensated us for the aura system more than enough in the combat changes prior

worthy crane
dreamy minnow
crimson vapor
opaque flower
# worthy crane Because granted, all the newer players that could benefit from vamp are locked o...

look, here's my take on penance again. my only issue is it being in the MAGIC tree. it would've been better as a nerfed version of the original aura that you would unlock as you train prayer, like a passive buff once you reach 99. Obviously it would be too overpowered if we kept it as an always on buff with no changes. But people keep forgetting one exact thing too, there are other tools in the game that solve your inventory slot issue for runes such as a blessed flask....

worthy crane
crimson vapor
#

The "bad part of the update" is ignoring that we used to have a way more severe tradeoff and refusing any tradeoff whatsoever for vampyrism and penance.

If the stance is that those shouldn't have tradeoffs and you should meaningfully have them always on, and thus the update is bad, then frankly thats an insane take and have no semblance of game balance

dreamy minnow
worthy crane
calm tinsel
#

we have people complaining that they have to recast penance after 12 minutes like there's an obligation to afk no-input for 15 minutes and that .08 APM is too much

crimson vapor
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Darkness didn't even fucking exist for most of the time vamp and penance existed. There is nowhere in the game I can think of that require both at once, and any case that would be penance + darkness is... doable with penance powder just because of sheer damage output.

dreamy minnow
spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

"I need darkness with vampyrism/penance" is not an actual, genuine problem or something that need to be fulfilled.

dreamy minnow
calm tinsel
#

If you "need" darkness + vamp, you need to upgrade your gear or learn what you're doing at the boss

spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

The last two days I've played after update has frankly seen me do way less maintenance and its a joy to not have to think about auras before I do stuff.

opaque flower
spiral mortar
#

I don’t really play anymore

crimson vapor
dreamy minnow
spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

Whats the issue with that. Any penance replacement would be separate.

opaque flower
calm tinsel
#

Penance trivializing prayer as a system isn't even a good thing, much less if it's "a standard expectation", and it didn't even properly get converted in EOC so it was dramatically buffed years ago from its original "P2W" form

spiral mortar
#

Everything

dreamy minnow
dreamy minnow
spiral mortar
dreamy minnow
spiral mortar
worthy crane
calm tinsel
#

People did do that with penance powder, vamp aura, and darkness

crimson vapor
#

Lets break it down:

  1. If you don't need darkness to not die, you dont need to use darkness. Cast penance to your hearts content! Nothing bad!
  2. You can also use demonhorn a lot of places, most monsters drop bones and those get crunched by bonecrusher!
  3. If you need darkness to not die (rough encounter), odds are you're in a boss fight, and is either active and can drink potion or bank often enough that you can restore between kills.
  4. If you need darkness to not die and you need penance because you want to afk it or you don't want to resupply, you're fighting something real tough either in aoe or thats really difficulty and odds are the drops you get make you earn way more than what penance powder cost you
dreamy minnow
dreamy minnow
opaque flower
#

Anyways im gonna go enjoy myself and pvm like I always do, using blessed flask and not having to worry about penance.

spiral mortar
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I did try mahjaratt plus penance powder plus darkness at hm zuk prior to all this removal stuff, I did worse than with darkness plus penance aura, so that’s what I preferred. But I have nothing against rebalancing except I think it’s not done well. My complaint is the deletion without refund. That is very bad.

dreamy minnow
crimson vapor
#

I've been here for every step of the aura system, and its never been good.

I remember how awful it was before vis wax with no extension, or only loyalty points, or before resets, and many of these things.

There are so many options to have sustain. masterwork weapons! bunyips! We have potions and demonhorn (and the lower dg necklaces) and holy scarab to halve your prayer drain and...

Vampyrism and penance always historically had a tradeoff. They exist now, with a tradeoff, one thats less severe than historical. It seems to me half the suggestions is "I want sustain/infinite prayer and I want no tradeoff" and thats not a good design direction.

opaque flower
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Vis wax was a huge mistake too. just pure awful in terms of adding to the "dailyscape" feeling this game used to have.

#

I'm glad they removed vis wax tbh.

dreamy minnow
opaque flower
crimson vapor
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We have so many options in the game for what penance and vampyrism did (and of course, they're still around) that frankly its the easiest thing to adapt to.

Both also have their use cases. I know places I'm going to use each one.

For anything not those two, odds are you got way better experience right now than you did last week. For those, unless its critical you have to use darkness (which is barely anywhere) not much.

I can get it if people suggest like, "hey lets be able to make and trade vampyrism tabs the way we can make teletabs". Thats cool, thats runescape, good addition to the upcoming construction update! Solves spellbook issues!

But if its just let me always have lifesteal or prayer restore I kind of despair.

obtuse sigil
dreamy minnow
crimson vapor
#

Anyways thats todays crashout I've been burnt out on half the discussions I've seen since monday

obtuse sigil
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Good crash out

dreamy minnow
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very good, you addressed all the points very well

opaque flower
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honestly, I remember my last crashout was with when EOC was implemented at first many years ago lol. It took me some time but I warmed up to the different combat system. If I can adapt, then I know people who actually are willing to put in the effort will adapt too.

bronze haven
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wow they giganerfed greenfingers

opaque flower
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Greenfingers was a tradeoff with another item in game so... they kinda overall buffed the effect

crimson vapor
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I've heard people go "think about the ironmen they lose out on legendary aura effect of +15% its just +10% for div" or whatever and I can honestly say any ironman worth their salt will go THANK FUCK I DONT HAVE TO WAIT OVER A YEAR FOR MORE DIV ENERGY AND CAN JUST GET THAT WHILE LEVELLING THIS IS WAY BETTER.

And that getting said aura would be mutually exclusive with getting any other skilling aura. Wait another year for next one.

spiral mortar
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Great way to go from 200k potential concurrent players to 25k, that EoC. If they left it as just an option, the game could have been much healthier.

bronze haven
opaque flower
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I mean technically it is an option... there is legacy combat mode... just good luck doing high end pvm content in legacy only styles

spiral mortar
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I never liked skilling auras

dreamy minnow
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~wooooooooooo~ penance powders and blessed flasks

calm tinsel
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Post EOC and all the changes they made to not require full manual, almost every obstacle in the entire game is severely undertuned compared to the numbers and tools given to the player. They could have not compensated this change at all and the game would still be trivial. Most of this is about not interacting with the game or disabling parts of it

spiral mortar
bronze haven
spiral mortar
#

Further nerfed recently into “classic mode” or something, to piss off the remaining legacy players—for what reason?

calm tinsel
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they nerfed the whole game compared to the player. If you could bring legacy mode with modern game balancing to OSRS right now (only adjusted for the 100x number diff) you'd casually steamroll all of that. And RS3 is even easier

opaque flower
# bronze haven tradeoff with what?

there was an outfit effect and item effect that the aura did not work on top of before at all. IIRC, it was the master camo outfit + mushroomy bag

crimson vapor
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For herb runs greenfingers is now way more accessible, I assume it was reduced to account for how much extra produce it would add to the game.

That said greenfingers was far from most important effect when doing herb runs for example. Juju herb potion adds way more herbs per patch.

Its like two less herbs a patch when said patch yield can be over 60 with the change or so.

spiral mortar
bronze haven
opaque flower
#

wait, im dumb, i thought you were talking about five finger discount lol.

bronze haven
dreamy minnow
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not every farming run is 1 hour lol

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
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now you can check on plants whenever instead of aligning with other timers

dreamy minnow
calm tinsel
#

Didn't the "faster herb growth" perk conflict with the greenfinger aura anyways

dreamy minnow
#

i don't think so

orchid fern
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Making vampyrism and penance an aspect was the absolute WORST thing that could have happened. I use these for most of my pvm, and now I have to choose this over using darkness? Im outraged..

obtuse spear
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One of the first times powercreep has been dialed back. Im all for it.

dreamy minnow
brave forum
# dreamy minnow Or a blessed flask or penance powder

Just to be clear, the first one is 118 Herblore +99 smithing +96 crafting cause it's not something you can simply buy, and the other is powder that requires a rare flower that some days you won't even get even 1 of after using your daily double rapid growth on all 4 flower, not really ideal alternatives

They should have been pocket slot effects

dreamy minnow
vital field
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They literally took player feedback. They wanted to add it to pocket slots but the playerbase voted no and suggested aspects.

placid furnace
vital field
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Idk, probably from both discord and reddit. I had seen people suggest aspects and summoning familiars as alternatives to pocket slot items when the first aura blog was dropped

vital field
placid furnace
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sure. so, i find that the argument point, "but you asked for this" is questionable.

i can only attest for myself, that i had never advocated for the aspects solution, knowing it competes directly with the other aspects.

however, i don't recall providing an alternative solution, as i too am unable to suggest a better alternative.

i did however, suggest post-update (iirc) that the "power" of both aspects be improved, as their current "power" is outright weak compared to the "power" of the other aspects (e.g. tier 1 versus tier 3)

vital field
placid furnace
# vital field My point wasn't "but you asked for this" my point was that they are listening to...

i see. noted you wre replying to another comment.

while i am aware that both aspects aren't (normally) used in high level pvm (like you just don't use vamp aura at Zam 2000% enrage), they would still be useful and considered a high-tier utility/support buff in areas where they can be used

penace is highly useful in every pvm scenario - similar to darkness. you'll always want to have it whenever you pvm, because it is style-neutral. therefore, i understand to an extent of the rationale if you want them to be mutually exclusive - the ironic fact that darkness counteracts against penace's effects directly, albeit not strongly

therefore i disagree it being classified plainly as a low-tier aspect.

vamp is debatable, as it has benefits across a few mechanics like sustain and effective damage reduction. but that is where i think it has a good standing similar to choosing to use blood barrage or incite fear.

hence, for both aspects, i completely disagree they are not meant to compete with the other aspects. on the contrary, they should, since they are all mutually exclusive.

vital field
#

Penance aura was not useful in every scenario. You were literally missing out on a lot of damage if you were using it instead of a dps aura. Just click your prayer pots every now and then. Aura was kind of op too if you think about it. Atleast powder had some tradeoff in that it was annoying and expensive

Same goes for vamp, you are literally missing out on a lot of damage if you only used vamp aura. While I do kind of see the point that people are disappointed you can't stack them with darkness, I really do believe it's just not that big of a deal. How much sustain does one need? And I'm pretty sure vamp aspect stacks with vamp gloves too

obtuse spear
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People are upset that there powercreep got dialed back a wee bit.
Theres always guna be people people that wont like it when power gets removed. Its just human nature.

obtuse sigil
mild frost
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I love how certian people in this thread keep using the term power creep XD as if vamp and penance added power creep when we already had them with darkness. Lets just pretend that the game wont have more broken busted stuff come out. i am tired of hearing the same people say auras were a problem lol at the end of the day better equipment and better passives will come out. its not a excuse to use when it wasn't a issue to begin with. if penance aura and vamp were a issue just delete healing and prayer recovery all together lol or just stop making excuses for why it was a issue in the first place. solution make them stackable with darkness, make them cheaper and add them to same spell book. also maybe make aspects last a little longer auras lasted 1 hr.. not saying this is the perfect fix but hey its a idea. I dont personally think its a big deal to run it with darkness

mild frost
vital field
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And vamp and penance are options for people who don't have darkness...so what's your point?

mild frost
mild frost
#

majority players dislike the change according to comments on YT channels

vital field
mild frost
vital field
#

Imagine playing the game to build your character rather than getting stuff for free...

bronze haven
marble venture
#

Where are free boss instances? I need to resupply my super restores soon jagex. Can you pretty pleaseeeee go to the cost value of instances type 0 and push it live already???

vital field
#

It's not me who is upset with the changes buddy 🤣 resorting to insults when you can't give a proper argument means you've already lost

vital field
pastel geyser
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Oof, -96 like/dislike ratio on Mod Anvil's Reddit comment about shutting down Loyalty Store earlier than intended.

fluid oxide
#

An internal miscommunication and the players have to pay the price for it.

A bit obvious why players are upset.

pastel geyser
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Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm upset too (the comment actually is under mine)

short fable
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Interesting, Jagex retroactively removed aura bonuses from old limited time events.

#

and Aura refreshes are removed from TH now 🙂

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In the Halloween Daily reward, it got replaced with a Cinder core.

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Any remaining references to Solomon's General Store were either removed or replaced with the Marketplace, even in defunct content.

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For Monthly drops, 3 Aura refreshes was replaced with 1 weekly D&D reset token.

fluid oxide
#

Do you mean aura refreshes removed from TH or just removed from the game?
Because I still have some in my bank.

short fable
short fable
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Also the equipment UI icons were all graphically updated.

short fable
#

Okay I'm confused on the anti-poison totem (okay I finally get it), there was already a pocket-slot version, they just removed the off-hand functionality and therefore references to that version was removed.

short fable
#

All loyalty store related stuff got removed as expected. In-game stalls, map icons, quickchat, etc

#

Newspost stuff got removed also, as did old clan avatar buff quickchats.

grim drum
#

Genuine question what’s the point of all this discussion under this update

short fable
#

I'm just finding unlisted changes that's all.

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Blisterwood stakes (ammo) now have a check kills action.

vital field
blissful thorn
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which is basically a "easy thing. let's do it to shut them up" repsonse

vital field
#

Idk what you're complaining about right now. Youre mad when they listen to feedback and you're mad when they don't listen to feedback

rough plover
dreamy minnow
rough plover
dreamy minnow
crimson vapor
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Vamp has been out for a decade, of which it has always competed with better alternatives.

Vamp is still out, and just has to compete with a different set of things.

Vamp hasn't even been lost. Vamp without tradeoffs to its activation would be powercreep, that much is obvious.

amber peak
#

Keep the conversations civil and don’t insult each other

grim drum
placid furnace
# vital field Penance aura was not useful in every scenario. You were literally missing out on...

maybe i worded wrongly.

instead of "they would still be useful and considered a high-tier utility/support buff in areas where they can be used" , it should be "they are always useful in areas where they will be used"

they are essentially non-high-stake pvm auras, where offense-lean pvm auras (which are purely offensive-types for very obvious reasons) will always trump

therefore, it is not a fair comparison, and those pvm auras have a specific separate discussion on balance, which vamp and penace were never a part of

therefore, i think it's a mistake to even lump them together in the same regard/category of those pvm auras' use cases

which was my original questioning on when they first pulled the data and said that "these auras are used by less than 5% of the playerbase daily" (non-verbatim) , because it seems that they missed the mark in comparing where these were actually heavily used for their specific use cases

for example, just because 1% of players only utilise dungeoneering aura, does it mean it is useless? no, because in their specific use case, it has 100% utilisation rate for the specific activity they are used in

pastel geyser
#

That's the first time my comment is on top of any Reddit thread. I imagine because of Mod Anvil's response under it though.

placid furnace
#

dark magic aura for example, is also classified as useless when compared to the other more utilised auras. why? because in the specific use case of pvm, it is inferior to others like maniacal.

hence, nobody complains when it was removed.

but does it mean it is totally useless? what if it had its effects reworked to be more specialised? e.g. player deals 80% damage, but deals 40% damage as stacking DOT over 10-ticks? would this make it on-par with other auras like maniacal in specific use cases in pvm?

vital field
dreamy minnow
vivid plover
grim drum
dreamy minnow
placid furnace
placid furnace
fallen tree
#

It's wild how 12 minutes is suddenly a problem for penance/vampyrism but never was for darkness or the others

vital field
# placid furnace you aren't being "prevented" but the option of choice becomes a limiting factor...

I can empathize with that sentiment. But at the same time, during the aura era like I said before you couldn't use dps auras with vamp. But now since the dps aura effects have been baked into 120, its definitely leading into powercreep at the high end. especially because I think it stacks with vamp gloves too.

Now, does everyone have 120 skills? Absolutely not, and I don't think they should balance the game based on that alone but midgame has also gotten significantly stronger since the combat update. So yes while removing the choice sucks, is that choice really necessary now? And if it is, Idk how you'd balance that without adding excessive powercreep into lategame

vague ivy
placid furnace
# vital field I can empathize with that sentiment. But at the same time, during the aura era l...

hmm... i can understand the rationale for the argument of pvm, since it would be considered as a direct "powercreep" where previously you would easily choose the pvm auras over a utility one such as vamp

i can definitely get behind that argument point.

however, i think the other more utilised use cases of where penace and vamp have taken a huge hit themselves, which i think, has been largely downplayed.

anyway, i've yet to come up with a better solution myself, so i hope the next blog by breezy or sponge (or whomever), can offer some options of solutions

can probably just GPT this for some ideas tbh

crimson vapor
#

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise.

When combat update hit, they changed formula on how damage works on and accuracy on monsters.

You're inherently more accurate and get more damage from levels now than you did before. If anyone tells you that you need 120 now to have same damage as you had with 99 + zerk aura before, they're wrong. Most of the redistribution of the aura strength was moved to levels before 100, and each level you get closer to 120 matters less than the previous level.

That also means that if you're worried about not doing combat before 120s, don't be.

silk hound
#

Realllly hoping for penance on ancients, feels wrong not to have it without SBS

placid furnace
placid furnace
# silk hound Realllly hoping for penance on ancients, feels wrong not to have it without SBS

penace and vamp are style-neutral, so they should be somewhere like necro instead - where spellbook swapping isn't required.

tbh, aspects should be put in the "ability books" appropriately.

temporal and animate being on magic books is fine because they are magic styles.

darkness is style-neutral, so it being in necro is personally arguable to me already.

but its not like we can put a cost of runes for activating aspects from a constitution book, can we? 🤔

silk hound
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That’s what I was thinking!! Having them be on specific books hurts build crafting given that you used to be able to use them with any book

Either style neutral or spellbook equivalents for each would be a better implementation than it is now

vague ivy
silk hound
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That would be great

crimson vapor
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Higher affinity = higher hit chance

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plus a bunch of bosses got adjusted affinity as well

brave forum
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While i dont like the aspects existing in the first place, vamp and penance should have been pocket slot items, god books be damned, but as someone else had suggested before either here or on reddit, aspects should be agnostic, and have their own separate tab in the spell book thats accessible with any book

crimson vapor
brave forum
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yea i know, and that pisses me off, cause from what i can tell, significantly more people are pissed about the aspects then ever were with the pocket slot thing

#

those blood essences need to be adjusted anyway to be fair, they have been dead since introduction last i checked

crimson vapor
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Oh the noise was fucking loud about pocket slots.

Personally i liked the idea of buffing certain healing/prayer familiars, but I'm pretty sure people would be outraged regardless of where jagex placed the tradeoff.

brave forum
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fair enough, theres always gonna be a slight outrage to a nerf, no matter what direction it takes, but honestly i feel like this was the worst direction this could have gone instead of the best

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one of my previous suggestions for penance was an altar in wars retreat similar to the bonfire, unlocked with warpoints and like 1k bones per tier of bone, that would give a progressively longer passive penance as you upgraded it, but that was dead on arrival apparently

crimson vapor
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That just sounds like penance always on with no trade off (after initial investment)

Sort of becomes the question whats the point of holy flasks, powder, prayer pots, restoration pot.

brave forum
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i mean, its not like they DIDNT just do something similar with the vitality totem

crimson vapor
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Is prayer points really that awful that we'd functionally just disable it entirely as a mechanic forever?

brave forum
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i mean, they could just nerf its capabilities to compensate, simialar to the powder, and then just have the powder combine effects to balance it

crimson vapor
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Suggestion for penance should ideally be "I get this effect, but in return I give up insert other thing you'd have instead"

Thats what it was in aura interface.

brave forum
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but the aspect idea is the WORST of any of the proposed ideas i had seen, so ofcourse thats the one that got implemented

#

its just more micromanaging and inventory management, making things more annoying then before

vague ivy
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The draw of penance and penance powders for me is the reduction in prayer point micro. I don't have to pay as much attention to how low my prayer points are.

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So the 1 hour long aura was perfect to that effect. The 12m penance aspect is worse.

brave forum
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Sometimes its like these devs forget the point of a video game is to have fun and juggling more inventory space and shit is not what i would call fun

placid furnace
brave forum
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And now if you wanna use those spells, for something that had its own dedicated slot and inventory, we now have the trade off of either
A. 4 more inventory slots for the runes
B. Casting the spell at a bank before doing into a boss or whatever your doing
C. Spending something like 50m on a pouch
or D. as an iron, having to farm for hours in the abyss, and then do a forced group boss in order to make that same pouch
I would have happily taken a rework to the blood essences or some other pocket slot item that needed to be recharged over this aspect garbage
Oh and for the sake of balance they can no longer be used with the other aspects either

placid furnace
#

but aspects as it stands, are direct buffs.

in simpler terms, if i were to place a point system to aspects as buffs, i would say it would cap out at 50 points.

however, if i wish to go beyond 50 points, say 75 points, i need to have a drawback/sacrifice on the player in order for its effect to be 25 points stronger than others

in some ways, this is similar to the zerk auras before, whereby they get to be significantly stronger at the cost of also taking more damage

darkness doesn't have that downside, which is fine

penace, doesn't have that downside, but i think its at least 20 points weaker than darkness in comparison.

so, to make it on par with darkness, i could foresee it basically causing player to also take 5% more damage and have its restoration cap removed

vice versa for vamp, whereby eating heals 20% less health, but healing cap from the aspect is uncapped capped higher

crimson vapor
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no restoration cap on vamp would make it insanely strong

vague ivy
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5% more dmg for uncapped prayer restore on penance doesn't sound like a buff. Prayers don't consume points that fast.

crimson vapor
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Or just for context, because of how soul split has diminishing returns.

It would make it almost as strong as the league relic where you got to use soul split and protection prayers at once. And the reason i say almost is just because that was 100% protection prayers on top.

brave forum
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i mean, they burn pretty fast if your using SS and like sorrow or turmoil or something to be fair

crimson vapor
compact haven
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At least when penance was an aura, I could keep up soul split and turmoil with just penance. I think the aspect is just as much prayer restoration as the aura. So...

crimson vapor
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Both effects are as strong as before whether aspects or aura.

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There seem to be two lines of complaints

  1. Duration, which I think is the fair argument.

  2. Can't use other aspects, I think this ignores gameplay balance and previous tradeoffs.

brave forum
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i just dont agree with it being an aspect at all, regarless of what it cost, it never should have been made an aspect, especially one that needs to compete with other shit

crimson vapor
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Not being able to use darkness is a perfectly fine tradeoff, in particular for penance, as most places penance work you don't need darkness and the few places where you'd actually take enough damage you fighting some real tough enemies that will be able to fund two penance powder.

brave forum
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Pocket slot, quest unlock, some form of glove or ring, literally anything but this micromanging spell nonsense added to our already cluttered inventory and buff bar

crimson vapor
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Realistically there were like 3 spots to put them that had fair tradeoff

  1. Pocket slot
  2. Familiars
  3. Aspects

Suggestions of vamp powder, or vamp incense sticks, or potion or altar in wars retreat or wherever is just genuinely asking for power creep.

vague ivy
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I have to bring up once more the suggestion of having vamp and penance, maybe all aspects, to work similar to divine charges.

Allow toggling off, but when toggled on, only consume charges when in combat.

#

We already have the perfect system in place: divine charges
Which is better than how pocket slot books work.

#

Also, just in case: I'm not saying they should cost divine charges necessarily. Just that they should work similarly.

compact haven
#

I do like the way divine charges don't drain when not in combat.

brave forum
#

i mean, it could cost divine charges AND runes, maybe something in the toolbelt you load with runes, something you need to get from arch or something, and use invention to create it
It could even come from the new havenhythe digsite when that comes

#

Either way, the aspects were a terrible replacement imo, and as i said before, the WORST of the previously suggested options, but its now the one we got

scarlet linden
#

Pls let us to use along darkness+penance or darkness+Vampyrism

#

This update is bad for this thing

placid furnace
#

FYI, the current cost of aspects on average across the board, is around 300k per hour

placid furnace
# scarlet linden Pls let us to use along darkness+penance or darkness+Vampyrism

with havenhythe part 2 coming up soon, i thought of a fun idea for "tier 2" of aspects. gona get flak for it, but whatever.

dark penace

  • provides +10% dodge chance
  • increases damage received by 15%
  • restores prayer points equal to 10 + (25% of damage taken pre-mitigation) + (50% of player's prayer level)

vampiric darkness

  • provides +14% dodge chance
  • decreases damage dealt by 5%
  • decreases total health by 5% (deduction is after any health boosts like bonfire)
  • restores health-over-time over 10-ticks (heal every 2-ticks) equal to damage dealt by, 5 + (10% of player's max health) + (2% of damage dealt)
scarlet linden
thin knot
#

Ewww these ideas seem to hurt more then anything

scarlet linden
pure raft
#

I think the “new” old aspects should have a scaling component like animate dead scales with armor values

scarlet linden
#

Mine?

neat cobalt
#

We could just easily make a tier system with certain aspects. So they don’t override each other. So we can penance or vampirism like we used to

#

It’s also not power creep. Since this is effectively the same thing we had before this change - just now a need for recast to keep the timer up

vague ivy
#

While it sucks not being able to stack penance or vamp with darkness like before, I just shudder at the thought of upkeep. 12 minute for one aspect is bad enough.. imagine having to upkeep 2 aspects every 12 minutes

neat cobalt
#

Or if they care so much to make penance and vampirism aspects a thing then make it easier to get penance powders and make vampirism scrimshaws for all combat styles

spiral mortar
#

Could have used marks of war/refreshes in a charge system. Less work, less abrasion, no deleting stuff people paid for/earned. Too late for that I think. Anyways, found the 5 minute damage for each style post nerf from a month back. Melee/mage/range seem to have been made relativelu stronger so there is the powercreep. But necro got relatively worse and now cannot use darkness plus non-powder penance as it used to.

IMG_3067.jpg
neat cobalt
spiral mortar
#

Image from the rs guy challenge gem thing

vague ivy
spiral mortar
vague ivy
#

What I'm saying is, if the average player conducted the same test, I bet necro would inch higher instead of being dead last

spiral mortar
#

Useful for the relative comparison. I bring it up because the zerker auras were baked into melee/range/mage, and that is cited as a reason to not allow penance or vampirism with darkness, but that ignores how necro has been pretty much screwed.

#

My main complaint, of course, is stuff that was paid for/earned being deleted without refund. Very nasty thing to do

#

But if necro were somewhat brought up to par with mage/range at least, then the powercreep angle for vamp/penance would have more merit

crimson vapor
#

necro didn't get worse, it just got less buff because the other styles need fundamental rework

vague ivy
#

I have to disagree with "necro being pretty much screwed" because if you say that and look at that gem test, you might be misled and think necro is so far behind. But then in practice, for example, it's so much easier to do 300% rax with t90 necro than t90 ranged.. like miles easier

verbal jetty
crimson vapor
#

There was no reason to buff necro, given that necro is easiest to get gear for, was used by a big chunk of playerbase, has easier access to sustain than other styles on average, and its still pretty good (and very strong in early/mid game)

Necro can get buffed in the future, but the goal of the update was to modernize the 3 old styles and see players spread out more in them.

spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

Necro had its time in the sun, now is something elses turn. its not nerfed, its just that other stuff were improved. Probably they were made a bit too strong if anything.

#

melee is most damage right now but its also most risk and hardest with movement, and on top end the biggest glass cannon of the styles

vague ivy
spiral mortar
vague ivy
#

Again, extrapolating from that gem test in a vacuum does no one any good. It completely ignores how good necro sustain is and how easy an optimal necro rotation is to execute

spiral mortar
# vague ivy Again, extrapolating from that gem test in a vacuum does no one any good. It com...

I don’t agree it does no one good, I get concrete numbers out of it rather than nothing, and of course I want to point out that necro got nothing like having the zerker auras baked in without the survivability nerfs, but loses the mahjaratt aura option and can no longer use darkness plus penance (non-powder) together. So the concern of penance/vampirism with another aspect for melee range mage, I can see that, but don’t leave out that it doesn’t apply to necro.

verbal jetty
#

I'm curious, what are the scenarios where you would be using necro and would want penance + darkness? slayer afk?

crimson vapor
# spiral mortar Necro was already weaker on the high end than the other three styles prior to th...

Necro is stronger than before:

Lategame:

  • Equilbrium 4, which is strictly stronger than equilbrium aura and just replace biting in setup which it is mutually exclusive with.
  • Ultimatums 4 is a buff to death skulls.
  • If I'm not mistaken, even budget equilbrium 2 is better than biting but might be wrong
  • Death skull timing much less precision needed

Mid/early game:

  • Way more viable to use death skulls before zuk cape
  • New power curve from stats means mid game necro levels give more damage than before
  • Better affinity on most creatures means higher hit chance

Necro was the style that could least use vampyrism' effect given its low volume hit splats in general. Penance + darkness is practically needed nowhere, and necro isn't punished by what spellbook they're on.

Necro has no real reason to complain, they're slightly stronger than they were.

spiral mortar
#

I can hardly find 1 minute dpm stats for the various styles

spiral mortar
spiral mortar
# crimson vapor Necro is stronger than before: Lategame: - Equilbrium 4, which is strictly stro...

Ultimatums everyone gets, melee/mage/range/necro, so since I talk about relative changes, it’s a wash there (I would guess it’s a bit less than 2% absolute to dpm, but the lack of concrete numbers hurts). Equilibrium is 2% more on the high end of the perk compared to the aura (minus one perk slot too), but has to be bought/gambled for again and locks out the crit approach, certainly nothing close to having a zerker aura baked in. Mid/early game is much harder to compare with no concrete numbers at all, so I stick to where there are numbers.

IMG_3067.jpg
crimson vapor
#

Necro intentionally was meant to be the 4th strongest style with the update to make it not dominate loadouts anymore on top of the other parts.

The real question is if they buffed melee/mage/range a bit too much

spiral mortar
#

I’ve never seen them say that, perhaps that is your interpretation or desire?

vague ivy
#

I absolutely do not see anything wrong with "necro doing less in one minute than a 37 second sun or death’s swiftness."
Because the implication is that: necro should be similar dpm with ranged or mage
While completely ignoring how: necro gear is much easier to obtain, necro sustain is much better, necro rotation is easier to execute, necro damage is universal and not resisted by most content

crimson vapor
#

I'll go find one of the screenshots of "how many uses style" but they definitely wanted to stop having necro domination

brave forum
#

Necro having ease of access in exchange for a DPS drop compared to the others isn't exactly a problem imo

spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

necro is the intro combat style and its really good but falls off on the very top

vague ivy
#

Yeah, that graph before the change is super unhealthy for any game if it isn't immediately obvious

crimson vapor
#

jagex was very happy with the number change in the first week post update post

image.png
spiral mortar
#

You claim it’s the intro style, and maybe it is a good intro style, but so what? And it’s popularity may be explainable by its simplicity, and they have simplified the other styles as well.

brave forum
#

To be fair, if the other styles were more accessible then they wouldve seen more use, people predominantly chose necro because of how easy it is to get going compared to the other 3 styles. And that chart is kinda biased cause that was post update where melee was just demolishing content
Oh and necro also has built in sustain where the others didnt

spiral mortar
#

I thought they added sustain to the other styles as part of the updates

vague ivy
#

Only for melee
And not to the extent of ghost healing

brave forum
#

That's what I said "didn't" not "don't"

spiral mortar
#

Didn’t range/mage get some sort of healing too that wasn’t there before?

brave forum
#

I'm pretty sure that healing only comes from the masterwork weapons doesn't it?

vague ivy
#

There's no healing only damage delay from masterwork
It's not part of the kit

spiral mortar
#

Mw 2h, bow, staff were there before the updates

#

So I am not talking about the healing from that

brave forum
#

Yea but they aren't built in sustain, they are near end of the road super high level gear that takes a shitload of literal nonsense to make, it's not a valid comparison to necro ghost

placid furnace
# spiral mortar Mw 2h, bow, staff were there before the updates

don't forget, they're only unlocked as endgame content. until then, ranged doesn't exactly have the decent utility pre-onyx bak bolts

and if you're gonna throw in the "sara/guthix bow" those are also eof-unlocked, and not something a t70 combatant would utilise

mage is blood spells, which are decent, though not great compared to melee, which is somewhat fine i guess

crimson vapor
#

necro ghost is also something you always want to have up due to haunt anyways

I assume melee/range went up further since the graphs, and mage/necro shrunk a bit down

spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

melee has in bleeds but its suboptimal to use for most things other than specifically healing.

Meanwhile ghost you want up anyways for necro.

spiral mortar
#

Though now that you bring it up, where masterwork necro weapons/armor?

placid furnace
vague ivy
#

Maybe masterwork necro will just make you immortal unless you try really really hard to fail every boss mechanic lol

spiral mortar
placid furnace
brave forum
#

i mean, technically considering the time that goes in to making necro gear, if you take into account all the tasks and outside nonsense that goes into the upgrade process, its already kinda got a built in masterwork process vibe going for it. Mind you that goes away once the tasks are all done and you can just make it whenever, but still

#

and the side to pick kinda depends on how any future possible necro bosses go, considering darkness and deathwarden dodge dont work on rasial for instance.

spiral mortar
#

Imagine t100 necro weapons with 2% heal to go along with the mw style of weapons… maybe that’s not a good idea…

#

It’s not up to me, but locking bosses behind certain styles does restrict players’ freedom. If only rasial were doable with melee/mage/range

brave forum
#

Also from my understanding, wasnt necro initially balanced to the fact that the other styles only went to 99, but now that they all have a 120 scaling, it does kinda fall out of line with them?

upbeat depot
#

Apparently the damage cap increase also makes Necro fall a bit out of line.

spiral mortar
#

Anyways, before I forget my point, darkness plus vamp/penance may be op with regard to buffed mage/range/melee, but necro was not buffed nearly as much and was already far behind, so that should be taken into consideration. And deleting stuff that players bought/earned without refund is bad.

placid furnace
spiral mortar
placid furnace
placid furnace
spiral mortar
brave forum
#

To be fair, they claim they will be making everything that was in that shop available completely free at some point
As to when that will happen, who knows

verbal jetty
#

also....technically loyalty points were deleted 🤓

upbeat depot
#

The problem is kind of two fold with that though:
-The early removal should have not happened at all, period and Jagex needs to seriously improve their internal communication systems if that is the truth for why it happened.
-There appears to be no concrete plan for the distribution of prior cosmetics/animations/titles. For all we know, they will end up doing some one a month nonsense after all despite Mod Anvil's claims on Reddit.

brave forum
#

Yea i mean, if you wanna go by the logic that the store being removed means they were techincally deleted as well.

spiral mortar
upbeat depot
#

If they want some good will back, they should just turn the store back on, extend the deadline to mid to late May for its closure, and maybe even toss 50-100k points at people to get cosmetics or other items of their choice.

brave forum
#

Yea no i get why people were upset about the removal, jagex very clearly stated end of april, and here we are barely in the middle, and poof.
It was a lie of omission because they told no one it was happening as soon as it was.
But this was the whole reason i spent what i had well before this, when they announced the removal, cause recent history has shown jagex CANNOT be trusted with any real promised timeframe

spiral mortar
#

They keep using up their goodwill on non-price increases lol, unforced errors!

upbeat depot
#

Pretty much. I've been playing this game for nearly 25 years so to be honest I should have known better then to trust Jagex's word on something.

#

However me being trusting still doesn't excuse that yet another breach of trust happened.

brave forum
#

The price increase thing also does not sit well with me at all considering they JUST increased the prices what, a year ago?

spiral mortar
#

If they handed out the cosmetics first (which I don’t care about), it would look much much better.

upbeat depot
#

Honestly, there's maybe 5 animations I want that I should have gotten.

spiral mortar
#

It never works like that for some reason…

upbeat depot
#

What I don't get is why can't they make it so we can spend the points without the store? We can see the points in game, there was interfaces in game...why is the store critical to this?

spiral mortar
#

Yeah it seemed like they were desperate to disable the ability to spend the points

verbal jetty
#

If i had to guess, the store is probably the thing that actually handles the purchasing of thigns (which makes sense)

upbeat depot
#

I also kind of doubt Mod Anvil's claim that the teams involved did not know about the prior stated end of April date.

brave forum
#

I just dont get why theyre brute forcing a lot of these changes, and at the speed they are

spiral mortar
#

The solomon store still worked for a bit after with loyalty points, but they disabled that too after learning about it

verbal jetty
upbeat depot
#

It sounded like to me that there was a communication break down and somehow the teams were not able to communicate changes to the time table effectively.

brave forum
#

which kinda speaks to its own issues

spiral mortar
upbeat depot
#

However, launching a update that breaks a prior promise means one of two things: either they bumped up the time table and utterly failed to communicate this, or the team was somehow ignorant to the original time frame and just sent it without caring.

verbal jetty
#

That it was removed earlier is due to the fact that the relevant team completed the work earlier but our internal communications lines didn’t pick that up early enough to be able to preannounce the change.
This doesn't read at all as "the teams involved did not know about the prior stated end of april date"

This reads as "the teams involved completed their work ahead of schedule and didn't properly communicate the new time tables"

brave forum
#

If the hand doesnt know what the feet are doing, why the hell are we rushing things out so fast???

upbeat depot
#

It's a compounding issue either way.

verbal jetty
#

i agree, my point was just that you can't really claim that one thing was said when it quite literally was not said. That's just spreading misinfo

upbeat depot
#

The culture at Jagex is a problem that needs correction before they actually do manage to kill the game.

#

Like I'm all for p2w elimination. The less of that we got the better (even if the damage has already been done with a decade+ of it). But these rapid fire, barely thought out half baked updates are not the answer.

spiral mortar
brave forum
#

I have friends who are actively refusing to play the game right now until jagex sorts out this weird identity crisis they are having. With how rapidly they are making changes to certain things, its hard for anyone to know which way to even play the game.

neat cobalt
#

I agree. Change is great but change without easing/reimbursement for certain things has definitely killed the vibe. The reactions to this aspect thing is a domino effect of all of these types of changes

upbeat depot
#

I'm on a semi-break right now. Not due to these recent changes mind you, but because I can only do so much RS these days. Plus OSRS Leagues started up, which is gonna siphon away players for 4-8 weeks.

neat cobalt
#

Polls should exist. Instead of this arbitrary qualitative data they’re gathering

upbeat depot
#

This just strikes me as a poor time for RS to do sweeping updates to the game when OSRS is doing a big thing with a League.

neat cobalt
#

Ask the players “how do you want vampirism and penance effects”. And you’ll see it will not correlate with the conclusion they presumed

brave forum
#

Honestly if people hadnt whined so hard about the relic or pocket slot thing, we would have wound up with this terrible aspect nonsense.

upbeat depot
#

What they should have done is tried out the different ideas. Like have a month where it's pocket slot, a month where it's relic, ect.

#

And use real, live data to see how it plays out. They might have a testing team, but no team can compare to thousands of players trying who knows what out.

verbal jetty
upbeat depot
#

Yeah, but it kinda feels like they took the worst elements of the feedback to use.

neat cobalt
#

Player Response clearly says otherwise

prime aspen
#

anything i like in game needs to be a secret now so it won't get nerfed or deleted

#

it's less and less tbh lol

crimson vapor
#

Not even OSRS polls balance changes like that, and they're the "poll everything" game.

prime aspen
#

i am using the rest of premier up to be practical and for spite lol

#

and to see just how bad they are gonna get... then onto something else

crimson vapor
#

Idk I'm incredibly happy.

Aura change has made the last 3 days way less busywork for me when doing various activities. Its so freeing and feels good.
Dailyscape was great.
Combat change made 3 old styles more interesting to use.
TH removal was absolute peak.

Sometimes I feel like I live in an alternate world than some of these complaints. Or there were fans of the systems I absolutely despised the most.

spiral mortar
brave forum
#

Hey im there with you on the aura thing, they should have been in their respective shops and such, but apparently there was way more contention about the auras existing in general, still dont really get why, but im more getting at i would have significantly more rathered them as some form of equipment or something rather then this aspect garbage

verbal jetty
#

If i had to guess, it's probably partly because the nature of the auras meant that for some people, it felt like their ability to do certain content was confined to 1 hour time periods every couple of hours

spiral mortar
#

Yeah the main complaint that I heard was it taking forever to unlock, which was unfair to new players. I agreed with that and mentioned it in my survey feedback.

fallen tree
spiral mortar
#

I never heard people complaining about the timer fomo, but changing to a charge system would have fixed it easily. Seems like there’s some crusader mentality of outright deleting anything that sprung up afterwards

upbeat depot
#

Well yeah, Jagex is bleeding out players and they know it, so they're throwing darts at the wall to see what sticks.

verbal jetty
#

i mean, i may not have heard about it before the change, but after the change I've definitely heard how much more "free" people feel when it comes to spending their time in relation to using auras
(i'm also not chronically online to the point where i would have heard about it ig)

spiral mortar
#

I never heard of the bad reputation until after they proposed deletion and people started defending the proposal

spiral mortar
brave forum
#

Yea it doesnt exactly feel freeing to me so much as it feels like something was stripped away, and now i have something shittier as a replacement

verbal jetty
#

🤷‍♂️ to each their own, just like your own perspective on it matters, so do the others.

brave forum
#

"Oh yea we know you really like this Motorcycle but arent happy it needs gas, but we decided it needed to go, so heres a pedal bike instead"

spiral mortar
#

Tesla wouldn’t go and delete “free supercharging” that came with the purchase, even if they neglected the program after. And if they did, it would make them look bad/cause them lots of unnecessary trouble

amber peak
#

yall

#

keep the conversation to constructive feedback

#

we do not need the irl examples

verbal jetty
#

i'd argue that vamp + darkness and penance + darkness wasn't even good game design to begin with. In aspect form, it feels much more like "each aspect serves a purpose and the use case of each one is unique and more defined".

Darkness: when you feel like you'll take big hits
Penance: when you really want to ensure that you keep uptimes on prayer
Vamp: when you feel like you'll take a lot of chip damage

#

Personally, I like the idea/direction of aspects actually being just that, defined in a way where they are each individually unique and applicable to their own type of content. And if they're defined in a way where they have their own use cases, then there really isn't much need for stacking them

crimson vapor
#

Yeah all the aspects have solid use cases now.

And if you desperately need penance + darkness, thats still available. Its specifically only darkness + vampyrism or animate dead+vampyrism thats off the table.

verbal jetty
brave forum
#

i mean, penance its my biggest gripe, vamp was never really worth using, it barely healed as it was, and now that its a spell it feels even worse , to the point i see no reason anyone would feasibly choose it over anything else

fallen tree
#

Time to just use penance powders then

spiral mortar
#

I’m not so keen on the “desperately” or “need” stuff as it seems to unnecessarily frame it as “git good”, but I can see darkness + vamp/penance as making melee/range/mage too strong, but not necro.

#

It’s not so much need as the loss of options while it’s being passed off as a buff or something

brave forum
crimson vapor
#

Not seen an example of it either.

But anyhow, I'm surprised how you guys not seen anyone complain about the other aspect of auras. Aura resets has been a huge complaint historically (was incredibly big before wars retreat, and after that still very strong with everything that wasnt combat).

plus how people felt the need to "use up" auras, or not do an activitity because they didnt have aura. "Sorry aura running" was something that wasn't particularily rare to hear when people were asked to join activities.

verbal jetty
brave forum
#

They could have fixed the terrible aspects of blood essence as someone else mentioned and that would have been an acceptable option

crimson vapor
#

holy scarab reduce prayer drain by 50% passively if you don't want to drink prayer potions often, and holy wrench reduce drain even further

brave forum
spiral mortar
crimson vapor
#

I feel I've played pretty much every content at this point, both high and low, on iron and main, middling gear good gear bad gear, afk and active.

And I'll just never understand the fascination with penance and vampyrism, which is almost all the complaints, in an update that by and large made the game much more straightforward and gave more freedom. Skilling is just outright better almost across the board for average player with the changes, though a few effects were a bit toned down. Combat in general has shrunk the checklist.

#

I think the only concession at this point I think is fine is 1) let people stack effect for longer than 12 mins and 2) let people make aspect tabs at poh lectern.

And that should end most remaining complaints

verbal jetty
#

i think changing up the spellbook situation would be good to, what the solution would look like idk, but it does feel clunky and not fun to interact with

brave forum
atomic breach
#

Make all aspects stackable Soulpog

spiral mortar
#

Yeah I never liked the skilling auras

#

Or the brooch

atomic breach
#

Leauge relic in-coming, all aspects and unluckable passive increases are 1000% stronger

crimson vapor
verbal jetty
#

could argue that greenfingers nerf is to balance out the potential for a massive influx of crops into the market. Before the change, only folks that had the aura and used it would get the benefits. Now it's much more accessible to obtain the buff so its more likely that more people will have it + its now literally 100% uptime without needing to activate an aura.

brave forum
crimson vapor
#

Yeah its much more accessible and functionally its -2 herbs on a patch with 10 seeds and other buffs avg. its not a big deal, but might economically matter quite a bit since so many more people got access to it now.

Its not true it was 100% uptime, it depended on what you did. Flower runs with starbloom if you kept doing runs would have aura be on cooldown for most runs

spiral mortar
#

Does it affect starbloom now? The aura didn’t work when I tested the basic version

crimson vapor
#

Also anything added as replacement is inherently more accessible than auras were before.

Getting your first legendary aura was 14 months of waiting without spending any from scratch as a new account. The fastest would be 8 months at best rate of loyalty points.

brave forum
crimson vapor
#

Ok lets check average yield calculator on something else.

1 seed, no outfit, supercompost, no boon, no juju farming. Just magic secateurs. Change is average half a herb less per patch having new upgrade vs old aura.

brave forum
# crimson vapor Also anything added as replacement is inherently more accessible than auras were...

Look i wont argue that the OBTAINING of auras was kinda trash, but 1, it depended on either how long you played, or 2, what kinda of account, cause you also have to account for all the GIM who were given all the auras which to be fair should have just been done for everyone
Also prior to this anyone who bought premier got their loyalty points in one big drop on sign up, so the 14 months thing is also a little disingenuous, but i get your point for the sake of monthly membership

#

Regardless though, no matter how you spin it, to anyone who did have access to that aura, it is a direct nerf

crimson vapor
#

I genuinely prefer the outcome we got over the idea of giving everyone auras.

Even if we incorporate premier club (once a year, you're committed for 12 months) thats still another 9 months to wait from scratch because initial loyalty point sums you got was pitiful.

Your first months subbed ever is... 500 points

#

(legendary aura was 230k points. Even if you subtract 150k from premier thats pretty dire rate)

image.png
brave forum
#

Or.... they could have just put the auras in there respective shops instead of nerfing a number of them for the sake of making them passive
Also ive been playing this game for over 19 years, and during the time since auras existed, i have NEVER heard anyone say they couldnt do something because of their aura timer, especially in recent years with the release of the refreshes in wars shop

crimson vapor
#

Consider what we got as the alternative in the update:

Do you genuinely prefer activating your woodcutting aura and then having 1-2 hour duration of that vs the new solution of... just remember to bring a good hatchet? Really?

#

You know what I prefer way more than activating desert pantheon health boost once an hour. Not having to do that.

brave forum
#

im sorry if the fomo of the auras timer held people back from doing other things while it was running, ive never experienced that, especially not with the refreshes in wars shop, i would use it when i needed it, kill it when i was done, and then if i needed a different one, just swap to it? I never really felt obligated to use them in the first place though
Im not denying it could be a problem, but i simply dont see it as some limitation the way people keep claiming it is

#

well, was

crimson vapor
#

I just don't know what auras added to the interaction that was good or interesting. I can think of a lot that was wrong with it, but I can't think really of anything that was right with it.

Having buffs, I guess?

#

Imagine this update in reverse, for instance. Would you go yay they moved these benefits over to the new aura slot so I now have to activate them and they got a timer and then a cooldown before they can be used again.

Not to mention all the historic issues auras faced.

brave forum
#

If you had them, they could be used to improve the thing your doing. Simple as that.
I will give that over all, getting rid of them in the long run is probably a good thing, and once the sting of the nerfs wears off, people will care less, especially with the skilling ones
But as far as shit like vamp and penance, all they did was add more micromanaging and inventory nuisances instead of making them better

#

I still say they could have more likely just reworked the aura system, found some way to charge them that wasnt an hour timer or something, put them in their respetive shops, and the missing armor window slot making the window uneven again irks my tism. But it is what it is, at this point its basically just wait and see how much player feedback they listen to with these aspects, and go from there

edgy brook
#

Vampyrism as an Aspect is a huge hit to Magic users. Hate this Patch

forest vapor
#

Im not sure how it hits magic users. Vamp was only used for afk/low active strats, it wasnt a good aura for any style in any situation (other than enabling afk).

It hurts afk, sure. But thats it. And you can solve that with soul split still.

spiral mortar
#

I’d sometimes use vampirism while other auras were on cooldown. I had like 400-500 aura refreshes that they deleted without refund or anything, 😢

bitter gull
#

I don't have soul split. Vamp was my only sustain.

#

Kinda back to necro being the only viable low level style

verbal jetty
#

what content are you doing where 50hp per hit (or necro) is your only viable option for sustain?

bitter gull
#

Everything at lvl 60 skills

#

Necro has infinite sustain vs killing 20-30 mobs and having to bank with every other style. Not worth using anything but necro.

verbal jetty
#

I could be misunderstanding something, but couldn't you just use food? surely something like lobster offers up good enough sustain.

1200LP per lobster is equivalent to 24 procs of vamp aspect

#

or at level 60 you have access to catfish which is 1500LP per or 30 procs of vamp aspect

elder abyss
#

Yeah, or just keep empty pockets to fill with loot and use non-degradable, health-sustaining necro gear. What a hard choice!

verbal jetty
elder abyss
#

I’m not arguing at all. I’m perhaps agreeing that necro is the most viable combat option, but I didn’t think I was arguing. A bad faith argument is where you don’t actually want to win or don’t mean what you’re saying, isn’t it? No hard feelins.

verbal jetty
#

I see no reason to get further into it with you. Your original comment offered nothing productive to the conversation at hand. It just seems like you wanted to come in, drop a a "gotcha" of sorts since you said "What a hard choice" in a seemingly sarcastic way. You ofc have the right to do that, but i'm not really going to engage with you any further on it

elder abyss
#

I am actually interested in the truth, which is, to my understanding, that necromancy offers more advantages than disadvantages and is better than using food. It was a good faith argument and my position is clear and I have no motive other than to bring about the dialectical resolution of whatever uncertainty exists concerning the truth of the matter. If someone disagrees and makes a better case, that is not a bad faith argument. That is simply a superior one. The only bad faith aspect was the sarcastic quip “what a hard choice,” but I hardly believe anyone could confuse that for my actual position.

IMG_1595.png
verbal jetty
#

I'll take the bait. The "issue" is that the original conversation was about how vamp aura was their only sustain so now if they want sustain they need to go back to necro. No one was suggesting necro wasn't a really good option for sustain, especially in the lower levels due to its accessibility and ease of use (plus ghost is op). The point i was making with the comments about food was, that they very much have sustain options that are not limited to just vamp or necro. And my point was, that there really isn't much content (i imagine at least) where vamp aura will sustain you more than food will. So if their issue is they don't want to go back to using necro, they can just bring food. Now I'm aware that I do not have completely and utter knowledge of all content in the game, so there might be something that someone with lvl 60 in all skills might be able to use vamp aspect to out-sustain food.

crimson vapor
#

Can someone explain how I was able to sustain without vamp aura using old styles before we got the recent buff but now its impossible and you'd have to use necro?

Most monsters you'd fight around level 60 combats are drastically underpowered (because of weird stat allocation as a legacy from EoC update). Blood rush exist at level 56 magic and isn't particularily crazy to get. And if you do train mage a bit more with that you'd have vampyrism for every style back again pretty fast.

verbal jetty
#

So the reason I said you were arguing in bad faith is because you were ignoring the entire premise of the conversation in the first place. It wasn't about necro's viability as sustain. It was that they used vamp aura for (what sounds like) their primary sustain option. And they could go back to using necro, but they potentially didn't want to.

untold halo
#

So mage, necro and melee all have some sort of HP sustain. Does range have a decent way to sustain HP like the other 3?

crimson vapor
#

Melee has a better heal than ghost, use dismember->slaughter (unlocked at 60)

verbal jetty
#

and again, none of this conversation is productive as it's now just going back and forth over a pointless topic that has zero relevance to the convo that was happening in the first place.

thin knot
#

Vamp is so weak in general before and after i dont understand the big gripe

elder abyss
# verbal jetty and again, *none* of this conversation is productive as it's now just going back...

You're right, I didn't mean to change the subject. It actually never occured to me to use vamp in other styles. I gave up on them, because I was tired of having to be so alert by comparison. My actual desire would be for the rework to have introduced as much sustain to other styles somehow. It seems melee got a little but, nowhere near enough. Magic at least has animate dead if you wanna hover over that spell cast button, but range has nothing, and all fail to compete with necro. I was disappointed by that. It just doesn't give me any incentive to struggle more at an early level and use a different combat style.

pearl tree
#

Trash update. I don't know why I spent all of the last few years buying Gold Premier Club accumulating Loyalty Points for nothing. Can't even use Vampyrism without switching to Ancient Magicks is ridiculous.

thin knot
#

Ive played iron and main and never really bothered with vamp or penance auras nothing in the game is hard to the point you need vamp and penance aura since prayer pots are stupid easy to obtain like its not even hard so idk why ppl complaining about stacking all this nonsense just using darkness was good enough with the other styles, i just fail to see the point people are trying to make about sustain

placid furnace
thin knot
#

No i dont use vamp never felt the need for it lol

#

And as a mobile only player with limited bars there is no real sustain issue, rather then skill becomes a factor

#

If you wanna buff vamp then make bone shield only work with necro

#

And make darkness work with necro only then you can justify buffing it since it seems the main complaint is sustain

compact haven
#

Do you want to make bone shield and darkness only work with necromancy?

thin knot
#

It should of been that way it should not be overlaping

#

Because look at the problem everyone is having now complaining about not being able to stack them, bone shield being used in all styles is what killed shields in the first place

#

Having darkness in alll styles makes it hard to add more sustain to the other styles

#

Im not mentioning penance because honestly you would only use it during a zuk run, fight cave run or fight kilin. That being said i would like longer timers on aspects because 12 mins is lame and there own book so its easier on everyone,

stiff prism
spiral mortar
#

There’s the claim that penance or vampirism used together with darkness would be too strong now with the mage/range/melee buffs, but necro was already far behind and got even further behind with the standard triangle buffs. So there is where the issue is. Aside from deleting auras and aura refreshes with no refund of course. Very unhappy with that part, but I doubt they will change course on that.

sand plover
#

Goodbye auras, you were super confusing. I will miss the lost effects but I will survive

bitter gull
#

Just feel like other styles are pointless without soul split when necro exists.

#

Previously I would use vamp plus another style. When vamp ran out I would switch back to necro.

#

Like, am I only supposed to use range or magic when I can safe spot?

forest vapor
#

Use.. food or something. The whole point of it is you shouldn't have that free sustain. You can pay the rune cost, eat food, or use soul split.
The other styles arnt bad, people are just used to using an aura and ignoring damage. If you cant see that as a bad thing.. i dont know what to tell you. Styles are fine.

pastel geyser
#

-130 ratio of likes/dislikes on Mod Anvil's Reddit comment. 😬

From this aspect, I perfectly get why no one commented on THAT update from earlier this year.

forest vapor
#

Reddit is very one sided in general, thats normal. People dont go out of their way to go there and like/dislike something unless they are annoyed about it.

bitter gull
#

Why would I want to use food when I could use necro and not use food

fluid oxide
#

Because you would be limited to necro? 🤷

bitter gull
#

That's the point

forest vapor
#

Throw it the other way. Why use necro when you can use the other styles fine with food? Its not like food is expensive. It just requires interacting with the game a little

#

And theres soul split later, you just have to earn it.

bitter gull
#

I have an Ironman account. Why farm fish when I could just do necro stuff. Why clog my inventory with food when I could keep it open for loot. There is no upside to using another combat skill until soul split. I don't plan to have soul split until I get the hard underworld task set done anyways, which requires necro. Then will farm dragon bones and get them auto ported.

#

If fish stacked it may be a consideration. Instead, it clogs up your inventory.

fluid oxide
#

Biscuits, Magnetic minnow, etc.

bitter gull
#

Waste of addren for how little they heal, and takes forever to farm a decent amount as iron. Healing as necro takes 0 addren, and heals for more.

fluid oxide
#

Oh no, trade-offs. What ever could we do?

forest vapor
#

why fish on an ironman when you get more fish than you need from the same pvm you need to do to get drops as an iron?

#

but also, why play an iron if you dont want to interact with the game, the main reason you'd want to play an ironman account in the firstplace.

crimson vapor
#

Can do mage and not use food. Blood spells exist. Can do melee and not use food, bleed abilities exist. Can do range and not need food, though thats one trickier with less built in options (though in particularily early on there is a lot of enemies that can just straight be safespotted.)

Also vamp still exist and is kinda easier to unlock now for irons than before ngl.

#

Melee straight up had to nerf its healing ability right after combat update because it was too strong and its still pretty very good healing wise.

forest vapor
#

The main problem is that these people want combat to be trivial, not require input and also without any unlocks. You absolutely cant do relevant combat foodless without unlocks. But why should you. Unlock the damn things. Its simple.

Theres even those vamp gloves, but going out and getting those and giving up a few stats is hard

calm tinsel
#

The melee heal falls off for purposes of AOE slayer mobs since it's a dot you inflict to 1 enemy, but at various brackets you have tools like guthan, sgs, vamp scrim. Magic has AD to cut damage so low even the vamp gloves work. Ranged lacks the same healing built in unless you use things like EOF sara bow which actually heals a lot

crimson vapor
#

range also has onyx bolts but currently they're 80+ range at minimum to use

Range could probably be given more reasonable sustain if we changed one of the less viable crossbow bolt effects to be a lesser version of onyx heal

neat cobalt
#

With havenhythe it makes sense we will eventually get access to some sustain/lifesteal effects. So hopefully we can get better utility of vampirism in our toolkit

forest vapor
#

yeah, the melee healing is not relevant, and thats the easiest way to tell if someone doesnt know what they are talking about saying melee is fine because it has that heal.
melee is fine because all styles are fine for healing. we have WAY too much healing. i honestly dont think any style needs any more healing. and soul split needs heavy nerfs as well. i also love afk combat sometimes, but its fine if i have to downgrade to something a little easier if thats how it goes.

bitter gull
fluid oxide
#

You want heals outside necro / soul split? Use food, which will cost inventory space.

Trade-off.

bitter gull
#

The point is that non-necro is universally inferior for that reason early game. There is no trade-off.

#

That's like the trade-off for removing all of your armor is taking more damage. Why remove all of your armor though?

fluid oxide
#

That's not really a good example to show trade-off. A better comparison would be power vs tank armour. One is able to increase damage dealt, but you also have less sustain.

short star
#

Can still be used as an example - trade-offs exist when comparing what each style provides

vital field
bitter gull
fluid oxide
#

In the same sense there are various options to heal, each having their pros and cons. The one people seem to be accustomed to was vamp aura. With that being gone (or at least altered with added restrictions / limitations), there's now new pros / cons to weigh your options and choices. One just needs to adapt.

I'm not a food user either, but I've learned that I can combo meteor strike's adrenaline gain with regeneration for a bootleg rejuvenate. It's wonky to do, but it gets the job done for me and allows me to save on resources and inventory space.

bitter gull
strong raptor
#

12 mins is lame, being spellbook specific instead of being in the necro book is lame

fallen tree
#

People just love finding the smallest things to complain about

bitter gull
fluid oxide
#

I don't have necro, nor auras, nor soulsplit 🤷 That is what I mean with adapt, lol.

bitter gull
#

For a period of time, after combat rebalancing, all styles felt balanced early game.

#

Before, necro was best. After, necro is best. I don't think this is the design goal.

fallen tree
#

The design goal is that people use food again instead of just healing through a billion other free sources

forest vapor
#

like, i levelled myself, as a hardcore im without vamp and without necro. its definitely not difficult to do. sure, necro is a problem, but the game functions fine without an infinite source of healing. the problem is you thinking you need it.

fallen tree
#

And if you do need it. use the aspect. It's there to use if you want

forest vapor
#

pretty much. its just nice for low effort tasks/leveling, which you dont need defence for anyways

bitter gull
#

Early game doesn't involve having access to ancient magic

forest vapor
#

earlygame doesnt need infinite non resource based healing.

bitter gull
#

It doesn't need it. It already has it. It's called necro. 😅

short star
#

Should the other 3 styles have some sort of built in sustain like necro has ghost for low/mid level? Why or why not?

forest vapor
#

i wouldnt say necro is earlygame. sure, its 'easier', but its a lot less effective till its going. and it needs quite a lot to get going.

bitter gull
#

You can get it within a few minutes of making your account. It's early game

forest vapor
#

but yeah, the other styles dont need healing. we have soul split, which is arguably problematic healing. we got vamp gloves that can be obtained early. we have food for anything thats even slightly difficult.

short star
#

I am speaking in regards to low/mid game

forest vapor
#

vamp gloves is earlygame. protect prayers are early, and are very powerful. food is easily obtainable without levels, and better with (you can buy food, thieve it, fish it, whatever)

#

also, if you're having trouble, you can learn the combat system. some of the most powerful abilities are given out early, like reso* (that autocorrected).

short star
#

Indeed - but necro gets built in sustain that allows the player to ingore all damage intake when fighting content at their level via ghost - thats my point

#

I am not saying there aren't tools everywhere else - I am saying the other styles struggle where necro doesnt

forest vapor
#

sure, but just because necro has it doesnt mean the others need it. the other styles dont actually struggle. the problem is more, necro has allowed people to be lazier, and because of that they lack the ability to actually play the game. it enabled an easier intro to bosses, but i imagine a lot struggle the second necro without manual suddenly isnt good enough

fallen tree
#

We all know necro ghost is a problem. But it's not one that's solved by just giving all other styles their own ghost

forest vapor
#

i dont even think ghost is actually a problem, mechanically. its main problem is that people use it as a crutch, and that overealiance means they think the other styles suck

#

melee is probably the best style atm, and it has no healing (outsideof bossing). and necro is.. still the worst.

short star
#

In an ideal world, ghost gets dialed back and SS gets looked at - if we don't start getting a handle of player healing, it'll become more of an issue. I am surprised they even mentioned a possibility vamp might get buffed

forest vapor
#

absolutely. a small nerf is probably necessary, but i dont think we can actually know till ss itself is dialled back a bit. but without doing that, its fine.

#

and yeah, im surprised too, but i bet we'll just see something like a % increase to make people happy, because the reality of that is that it doesnt change its main use, afk slayer, and isnt any more effective due to the cap

short star
#

They just have to be careful with a % increase though - itll start affecting different groups of players if it becomes strong enough. Cause there's a world where it could become a part of meta builds, which is exactly the opposite of what they want. We start increasing base player healing even more, we will start getting new bosses like Vorkath, which was designed to counteract ghost dealing with its stupid amount of chip damage

forest vapor
#

theres a hp cap on it, so it could be 100% and still not be used for lategame bossing. as it stands, most people hit the cap super early

short star
#

I mean theres a cap of 50 now yes, but the only way to buff it is to increase that cap, not the damage %

forest vapor
#

absolutely. but buffing the % will stop the people who have no idea what they are talking about happy for a few minutes, without actually impacting gameplay. placebo buff

short star
#

That is true lol

calm tinsel
#

ranged got the basic improvement of more multi-hits for regular players in the context of vamp aura. If you hit enough times and low enough it can be up to 5% still

forest vapor
#

people are mostly upset because they barely know how to play, and are worried they might actually have difficulty doing something without learning to interact with the combat system. they likely dont have actual trouble.
ive seen this in that very rarely do they say what content they are having trouble with.

short star
#

Its just one of those things I am not a fan of - added player power for free, especially when they make vamp aspect stackable

forest vapor
#

i doubt they'll make it stackable. that was just people misinterpreting what the devs were saying

short star
#

As much as I want to agree with you, I dont trust devs not giving in to that

calm tinsel
#

It is absolutely a problem that we treat unlimited sustain and no concerns of damage as a baseline expectation. Even changes like armor doing a better job of feeling like it was resisting AA damage would be better than "keep adding passive large heals to everything"

short star
#

If it comes down to stacking them or increasing vamp effect, they will stack

forest vapor
#

eh, the devs seem to stand firm on a few things, and they definitely didnt want vamp free, so they likely wont fold on it now, especially when the community is divided, with those wanting it back not actually having a good reason other than 'i want game easier'

#

'im an ironman, dont make me go get my own food for once'

fallen tree
#

Devs also know everyone will forget about it next week

short star
#

I mean if they were firm on this, these effects would have gone into pocket slot effects and not kept changing avenues for the small minority who were misunderstanding the changes

forest vapor
#

the earlygame is also easier than ever, and loads more interesting. its just not quite so.. i click in the middle of a group of enemies and go afk till i level 10 times for the next tier, till vamp expires and then log off till its back

calm tinsel
#

I'd actually say I think the lower portion of "mid game" is easier than early game, because you had the EOC lmao balancing that rarely got corrected besides headline iconic mobs like some bosses, but necro launch had them notably rebalance the early game (1-50ish and a tiny bit above for some cases like certain slayer mobs), then suddenly that ends and you're back to ultra trash mobs, until later game where they were always just stronger and meant for post EOC or had large manual adjustments

forest vapor
#

its more we get more abilities earlier than we did before, and styles fall in to place a lot quicker with the combat rework

calm tinsel
#

early game certainly got easier than it was, but there's the opposite of a difficulty spike after the early game due to the batched stat fixes

forest vapor
#

yeah, true enough. at least that rebalance is coming soon too, and hopefully that means things are generally harder.

thin knot
thin knot
short star
vague ivy
#

I just read what he said and that's the complete opposite of what you got from it lol

#

I got ninja'd, my comment was a reply for Hellz

thin knot
#

Confised with someone else

short star
#

Yeah I am not quite sure if it was a typo or misunderstanding what I was saying - I have always been against players even having vamp/penance as an effect. The last thing I am doing is supporting a vamp buff

thin knot
#

I still think the problem lies with darkness and bone shield, no one wants use shields anymore which give extra def which is apart of sustain in a way, then darkness being able to be used with all styles caused a crutch to some players and now that you cant have both its anarchy

short star
#

We do have to acknowledge that there are valid concerns from players who want vamp and want it to be "accessible" - we need to meet in the middle and find good balance in all regards, if possible - there are a lot of core gameplay issues that make a fix tricky though and in general both sides have good points on issues/fixes

thin knot
#

Yeah, but theres no real content for vamp aura camping

#

As vamp is now its useless, players are mad over 50 per hit?

#

But then wanna compare necro the trade off with necro is you do way less dmg then the other styles for more sustain

forest vapor
short star
#

No, however it adds a bandaid fix to sustain, players are used to giga high scaling healing at top end. So unfortunately thats caused an issue looking at low/mid game. Ghost is also a problem in that sense

thin knot
#

No its not necros fault

forest vapor
#

early/midgame we're so overpowered that it doesnt matter though. earlygame has been powercrept to shit.

short star
#

Ghost healing is also a problem and has shifted where players view healing should be - I am speaking to player perception, not game design/balance

thin knot
#

The devs making darkness and bone shield work with all styles is problem, i have 0 issues with ghost healing, early/mid game there is nothing where you need vamp having done iron myself never onced said ou dam i need more healing over my desert soles

short star
forest vapor
#

should we be changing the game for people that dont want to play the game, though?

short star
#

Its a good question - rs3 has become a 2nd monitor mmo for a lot of players - should be find a balance for those players or disregard them?

thin knot
#

I think vamp created a false sense of security

forest vapor
#

id argue that for people that want a second screen game, already in the thick of it, theres little/no change.

short star
#

Are combat systems designed well enough to make player engage with them more?

thin knot
#

I mean they gav them vamp gloves stack it with that

forest vapor
#

people that afk, (im one of them) theres basically no difference. its actually easier now. you soul split, penance on cd and forget.

thin knot
#

Penance is nich

forest vapor
#

if you dont have soul split, get that. before then, theres vamp gloves, food, combat abilities that are designed to stop you dying, and a bunch of other stuff.
yeah, penance's niche is afk slayer

thin knot
#

Yeah i think ppl need to eat food more

forest vapor
#

theres actually very little need to use vamp in general, other than wanting specifically to avoid using food entirely. if you're an iron, you signed up for it. if you're a main, you have the ge

thin knot
#

Yeah nothing in early/mid game requires it, but the complaint ppl have is stacking aspects which i think is a huge problem which is why i think darknees needs to be necro only

forest vapor
#

probably. id honestly like them all to be rebalanced and detached from their styles. because they synergise better in style, and thats good.

thin knot
#

My only complaint about update is make aspect timers longer i dont wanna cast temp every 12 mins

forest vapor
#

eh, 12minutes is fine. if your activity is literally just clicking that button, you're good

thin knot
forest vapor
#

yeah, being tied to spellbooks is absolutely not a good thing

short star
#

Unfortunately, we will continue to have this issue where players will feel like the game is a struggle to play when "power" shifts away from them, because: 1. players view problems on surface level and are unable to look past into deeper issues, 2. game designed for the past decade has continued to cave into giving players more and more for less. Until we can get out of this cycle, issues like this will persist

thin knot
forest vapor
#

but is it actually a problem?
either they decide the game isnt for them, and probably never was, which is actually great for them specfically, or they just complain loudly for a week and forget

vague ivy
#

Is bone shield that much of a problem? Before bone shield, we all just switched to shield for 1 to 2 ticks for reso. No one shield camped.

What bone shield really killed off was defenders.

thin knot
#

Bone sheild killed shields aside from spirit shields what you mean l0l

spare apex
#

my issue with bone shield is mostly it acting as a big buff to continuing defensives

short star
thin knot
spare apex
#

bone shield reso - couldn't care less. being able to output full damage while under the effects of reflect or cade is a decently big shift

forest vapor
#

and just because a few people are used to devs caving on them complaining doesnt mean that continues to be the paly.
shields mostly killed shields, in being terrible and bad gameplay.

and thats mostly the old team. we do have a newer team now. they should and do listen to feedback, which is good. but they havent really caved on anything so far.

vague ivy
short star
#

Its more than a few people, its a trend spanning over the past decade - players are too used to getting what they want, getting content easier for less

bitter gull
#

Would be neat if wearing a shield wasn't a huge dps loss.

thin knot
#

If you make bone shield and darkness necro only it leaves the door open to look into adding sustain into other styles i would think

forest vapor
#

sure, but just because they exist doesnt mean devs need to, or do cave. and we can just argue against. those people sure are loud, but they clearly arnt a majority of people, or even close to being a large portion

#

it'd be nice if shield gameplay were more than just a swap, ability, swap back. some sort of gameplay that isnt a huge loss, but maybe work to avoid it being such a loss.

short star
#

True but the vocal minority tend to get devs to change their design plans - which is the issue I am raising

thin knot
#

Yeah feel like devs listen to the top1% of players aka pvme and reddit

short star
#

That group was against vamp/penance effect going into the pocket slot - which was a better option than aspects

forest vapor
#

why advocate for them, though? your effort is better spent trying to work out what their actual issue is, and then show them how thats fixed without requiring what they are complaining about.

and then you manage to see theres no real problem, just complaining to complain

vague ivy
forest vapor
#

yeah, noone camped shields, ever. i mean shield as a swap only was all that was killed.

thin knot
spare apex
#

I think it's probably just also permanently killed off revenge as a useful ability sadly which is sad - defender reflect revenge on p5 was v fun

thin knot
#

Idk, at this point just delete vamp

short star
vague ivy
thin knot
forest vapor
#

and the devs are, in the current times, shifting directly away from low effort, longterm afk gaming. they've stated it, they've made changes that way, and havent caved on anything yet.
arnt deleting afk, but reducing its power, as they should be.

spare apex
#

I have no qualms about saying I shieldcamped when basing raids, esp yaka

vague ivy
#

Just straight up shield? Not defender?

thin knot
#

Idk what the problem that person is the TANK job is not dmg but to tank

spare apex
vague ivy
spare apex
#

as far as I was concerned there were 10 people in the raid, it was fine for me to not really bother doign damage

short star
#

You used to - not anymore

vague ivy
thin knot
#

Some ppl did if they didnt have defenders

vague ivy
#

Shield camp for me is camping shield all throughout the fight. Switching to shield for full cade duration and then switching to offhand is not shield camp imo

thin knot
#

Nothing wrong with sheild camping if your job is to tank

calm tinsel
#

shield camping is just mathematical loss where, besides spirit shields, it not only buffs durability (DR and block chance) by less of a % than the damage % lost, but our damage dealt massively outscales damage taken, so it's just bad

forest vapor
#

yeah, only really makes sense learning or hardcoe

thin knot
#

K if the tanks job is to take dmg and live who cares?

forest vapor
#

oh yeah, outside of tanking, tanking is what it is, yeah

thin knot
#

I think this update shows how many players where glued to vamp

forest vapor
#

well, its not 'that' many complaining. but yeah, it does show how few were using what was essentially not even a good aura

fallen tree
#

most of the time you should still be contributing to the fight beyond just taking all the hits though

thin knot
crimson vapor
#

Vamp is more accessible now than before, frankly. Let us compare

To unlock vamp, you needed to train to 60 combat, and do some combination of bosses. Heres the amount of bosses you needed for vamp among early game bosses if you camped only that boss. (Minimum 5 hours regardless due to 1k marks/hr cap). You could of course do some combo,

100 barrows run with all 6 brothers.
250 giant mole (or 161 in hard mode)
500 kbd
500 dks
250 chaos elemental
10 jads
83 hermod
125 corp

You start getting the idea. Now lets compare that to vampyrism now.

#

this and 69 magic. If you ever want to do GWD1 you need Death+Troll Stronghold. If you want tendril abilities you do dig site. And of course you kinda want to unlock ancient regardless.

image.png
#

you could of course do 250 of a gwd1 boss too but then you've already done half the quests you need. And that many kills on these bosses (spread across minimum 5 hours) is more effort than just getting the new unlock.

thin knot
#

Woah now im lost, i want vamp deleted idk

#

What are the list of bosses for

ocean yew
#

Way more accessible than Darkness tbh which has a bunch of quest reqs and 86 archeology.

crimson vapor
#

I had desert treasure done on ironman long before I unlocked vampyrism from wars retreat

Penance is even easier comparison than before.

New req? 67 magic. Thats it. Thats almost nothing.

Old req? 5 months of membership subbed consecutively, because loyalty points starting out is a fucking joke.

thin knot
#

Ahh i see yeah

vague ivy
thin knot
crimson vapor
# thin knot What are the list of bosses for

Thats the amount of bosses you'd need to kill for the marks of war to gain vampyrism before mondays update.

I think people saying vamp was easier to unlock as aura, just have forgotten time it takes to unlock, or have Desert Treasure built up in their head as far tougher than it is.

thin knot
#

Yeah its easier now i agree

crimson vapor
#

Desert Treasure used to have more quest reqs, but those got cleaned up and removed years ago because they were irrelevant to the plot.

thin knot
#

I have a iron in mid game and still dont bother with vamp im just so confused why players want and need it

crimson vapor
#

oh I'm confused too, I'm just also annoyed at people spreading the myth that this is somehow less accessible for low or new players. 5 month IRL timegate is the opposite of accessible for example.

forest vapor
#

its likely most of them got it via loyalty points.

thin knot
#

Prob

crimson vapor
#

Similar with aura resets. People late game has completely lost perspective on bad of an opportunity cost aura resets were early on.

Each usage of vampyrism, if you got the full marks of war for an hour, would only be half a reset. You genuinely could not upkeep it 100% until you got combat achievements to tier 4.

The only way would be if you mostly did 1 hour of combat with said aura and then stopped doing combat for while, or you extended, in which case extension of penance has been more expensive than penance powder for an hour for years.

And thats not even getting into opportunity cost of delaying getting the much better auras from wars retreat would be.

For early mid and new players, its not just more accessible, if you intend to use it for any further than an hour its also more economical.

forest vapor
#

worth noting that the same people that want vamp back seem to also argue that it should be just given out to all accounts immediately

calm tinsel
#

As it stands (ignoring any potential change to move to ancients or whatever), penance is actually BS, because you only need 67 magic to disable prayer points as a mechanic for most of the game (if you don't need vamp healing, darkness dodge, or AD DR, then you only have Temporal for magic, so the other styles don't even really care or sacrifice) because the ratio of HP vs Prayer points is so skewed, especially with how EOC dramatically buffed the ratio on the restoration and made damage more consistent/less threatening so constant prayer restoration via damage taken is no big deal

thin knot
#

What happened to if you kill it fast enough you take less dmg notion, penance is only good for fire cape kilin cape and zuk cape outside of that ii dont see the need for penance

spiral mortar
#

I saved up marks by rotating through auras on easy bosses, or just not using them for easy bosses.

thin knot
#

They made blessed flask for a reason and the elf cyrstal thing and ehnanced excal

#

You want more prayer yolo bring fally dairy shiels (joking) lol

forest vapor
#

i actually dont think penance has any place in kiln/zuk. you dont use much prayer there anyways, most people used aegis -> dps auras there, because you can get through with 2 prayer flasks at most.

thin knot
#

I always used penance in them so i didnt have to bring prayer restores

forest vapor
#

its niche is probably low effort slayer where dragontooth doesnt work

thin knot
#

Not zuk tho ive done enough zuk where i dont use penance no more there

calm tinsel
#

I'm not talking about a top tier player, I'm talking about a wide range of players including lower level. It's a tiny unlock to just trivialize if not entirely negate one of our core resources. If you aren't leaning on vamp or AD you're just using penance

forest vapor
#

oh yeah, im with you there. vamp is essentially the same. they shouldnt exist at all

thin knot
#

Never thought prayer was a issue my issue is standard pray book at low level is shit lol

forest vapor
#

eh, protect prayers arnt hard to sustain early, and are kinda insanely strong

thin knot
spiral mortar
thin knot
thin knot
forest vapor
#

accessible ways, too. like, flesh crawlers, low level in security stronghold drop ranarrs commonly

spiral mortar
forest vapor
#

i used it a bit in slayer, but its not much of a loss really

thin knot
#

You can do a nm run with just a hell hound and like 5 spirit pots and like 2 restores for zuks hp debuff

forest vapor
#

i dont think you ever needed it. the recommended ways are soul split/deflect flicking when you need it, and avoiding the rest till you know how to play, and abusing defensive skills when you do for most of your healing. in my few zuk runs, i didnt use any supplies all the way to zuk, using aegis

#

and thats using each style to unlock their own cape, before combat changes.

thin knot
#

I used it before i learned zuk fully and hm

#

Now like you said reflect devo carries you through the waves no difficulty which my times now are around like 13-14 mins on nobile

forest vapor
#

not bad, loads faster than mine

spiral mortar
#

I got like 16 nm stones with seasinger wand/orb and virtus before necro came out. Was hard before I bought gchain. Then tried it with t70 necro robes and t90 weapons once necro came out and didn’t like it, went back to mage for a bit. Eventually got combo zuk cape with t95 necro and obsidian damage reduction, but never got good at hm zuk. Mainly waves 11-13, they hurt!

thin knot
#

That being said i can see why ppl want a ghost heal nerf

forest vapor
#

eh, ghost is mostly fine while necro is the lowest damage style.

thin knot
#

But the tradeoff with other styles is almost double the dmg exactly what you said

forest vapor
#

is it that much?

thin knot
#

You cant give the other styles more sustain since they melt everything almost 2x faster then necro

#

My numbers show a 1.7x diff almost

forest vapor
#

my melee is around the same as my necro gear, using t85s (accuracy) vs t90 necro, both accuracy capped. on 1min camp sims.

thin knot
#

I switched to magic from t100 necro and pbed everywhere

forest vapor
#

i would if i had gear. i keep getting distracted with other games, so havent got anything t90+

thin knot
#

You a iron?

forest vapor
#

was a hardcore before getting griefed. still 0 pvm deaths. still iron, didnt care about losing hc, still playing as if i were.

thin knot
#

Ahh, dm me sometime for pvm trips i dont mind at all im losing intrest in the game after all these updates so been playing osrs since all my peeps swapped after combate update

forest vapor
#

oh, i dont need or want carries. most of the fun is learning, i just lack the motivation sometimes to finish the grinds. yet to have any actual difficulty with the game learning all bosses raw as hc

thin knot
#

I just like ovming with others its what keeps me playing this game lol

forest vapor
#

but i also have that araxxor wearing bronze achievement.. so i guess im ok.
and fair, im kinda the opposite. id rather play solo as a challenge game

spiral mortar
thin knot
#

Yeah but with necro you can camp ss which is busted lmao

spiral mortar
#

Rs guy 5 minute gems (I am told he didn’t do ranged properly)

IMG_3067.jpg
forest vapor
#

thats not even a second rotation.
what about brid speed setups? thats another thing necro completely lacks LOL

#

oh, its there but couldnt see it, at the bottom

thin knot
#

But look at how nerfed the other styles are no this no that and still way above necro

forest vapor
#

i feel like thats not a good reference on brid, its likely a lot higher.

thin knot
#

Necro melee is the only brid i did

forest vapor
#

necro doesnt brid well afaik

thin knot
#

It was fine before updates

forest vapor
#

its probably good if you stack before the fight then swap after burst. but you cant really swap into it

#

actually, does it's burst even end in high adren? thats why melee/mage is so good, you overflow on adren with CDs and swap between as that falls off to keep it up in the second style.

spiral mortar
#

How much stronger did mage/melee/range get with the buffs? I think necro didn’t go up nearly as much and actually lost more than it gained.

forest vapor
#

melee gained the most. thats about all i know
i think someone said magic is around the same?

spiral mortar
#

I wish we had hard numbers to compare lol

forest vapor
#

yeah, we can get numbers now.. but only because they made metrics free afterwards

thin knot
#

Range with eq4 i think is close to melee magic being 3rd honestly with necro last

spiral mortar
#

It’s hard to get someone equally skilled in all 4 styles and get the comparison there

thin knot
#

Wazzy is

forest vapor
#

yeah, theres probably plenty of data out there if you ask pvme.

thin knot
#

But he melee magic brids now mainly

spiral mortar
# thin knot Wazzy is

Can you get him to do 5 min gem or perfect raksha rotations for each style and publish the results?

forest vapor
#

just compare fastest times in each style in fights that dont favour one specifically.
and yeah, melee/mage is the clear winner. i expect its closer to 5mil if the other numbers above are accurate

spiral mortar
thin knot
#

You want me ask a streamer ? Lol. Not that he will prob listen your better off getting numbers off of pvme even tho i dislike those elitiest folk

forest vapor
#

can probably test it with 30s burst, 30 non burst, and then just put the two bursts next to each other instead of a down phase, and thats brid

#

yeah, but i know for a fact that melee/mage is better than melee camp by a decent margin. the above has them around the same

thin knot
#

Yeah its like 400-500k diff

spiral mortar
#

I’ve never been a memorizer, especially under pressure lol, can’t follow rotations or remember them, or do the wait 1-2 ticks thing.

forest vapor
#

you could science it easy by just doing 30s burst + 30s downtime with melee, then adding 30s mage after the 30s melee burst. and there would be your % comparison

#

as long as you have both burst rotations memorised, you're good. you just swap after zerk, before you use adren, then continue in to mage adren burst.

spiral mortar
#

From raksha timers and using necro as the base, magic does 1.25x dpm, range/melee does 1.43x. From RS Guy’s gem timers using necro as the base, mage did 1.27x, range did 1.27x, melee did 1.45x

thin knot
#

Rsguy is only really good with magic from i understand

forest vapor
#

yeah, other than ranged maybe not being quite as good if people are right, that around what id expect, and thats actually pretty good

spiral mortar
#

So mage and melee ratios line up nicely there, and the issue with range was noted earlier

forest vapor
#

it lines up with what others have said in IM chat

thin knot
#

Hmm, he doesnt even sweat with range tho

#

I could be wrong but i never really seen him go full on arrow swaping like most do

forest vapor
#

wish i had the gear, but thts just effort in getting past rasiel first -.- he's so boring

spiral mortar
#

Rasial only gave gloves from kill 240ish to kill 760ish for me

#

Got 3 gloves

forest vapor
#

rekt. comparable in enjoyment to rax, who has cutscenes and waiting to drag that down as well

spiral mortar
#

All my PRs were from when I accidentally went off rotation and did suboptimal stuff (that I don’t remember)

forest vapor
#

mine are purely from getting perfect timing rng rolls on adren ultimates

elder abyss
livid sapphire
#

With aura rework, prayer relevant auras were added to Sunspear. I agree with the addition and it makes sense, but with this addition you've made Vyres indefinitely clickable with reuping anything or leaving the area. It's created renewed interest in training there for prayer xp and harder to find a free world. All that to say can we please get more locations to train / spawn vyres in Darkmeyer for optimal training. There is only one optimal space within each world and it's pretty much impossible to find a free world at the moment. Please hit me with it's always been this way and we shouldn't fix it blah blah blah. thanks xoxo

compact haven
#

it's always been this way and we shouldn't fix it blah blah blah

forest vapor
#

tbf, with penance aspect, that change is no longer needed, as it was mostly a thing to allow it before that decision was made.

verbal jetty
#

there's like 80+ vyrewatch spawns in the game, across 5 different locations, surely there's more than 1 option when it comes to where you can farm them

forest vapor
#

there is only one good spot though.

#

its likely a problem better fixed by more spawns though

verbal jetty
#

they asked for more locations/more spawns, not for more perfect condition optimal locations/spawns

i reread, they did technically ask for more optimal spawn locations

forest vapor
#

yes. and theres only one good spot, and its usually taken in every single world. yeah

verbal jetty
#

but to act like there aren't plenty of spawns is silly imo

compact haven
#

And we're actually talking about vyrelords, right? Not vyrewatch.

verbal jetty
#

🤷‍♂️ they just said vyres

#

seems like vyrelords are the standard for training, rather than vyrewatch, so in that case, it does make sense that they're asking for more spawns

#

I don't think for the sunspear it has to be vyrelords tho, looks like any vyres work including vyrewatch

compact haven
#

Back in my day, we killed Vyrewatch with the Ivandis Flail, picked up their corpses, and carried them to this place beneath Paterdomus to cremate them.

#

Yes, Sunspear works on all vyres, but the Vyrelords give more xp, so that's probably what he was talking about.

brittle sorrel
#

Vyres are too good. I did 200m att str def prayer and firemaking there. I will concur that it can be very annoying to get in the "good spot"

vague ivy
#

You know what I'd like? For group combat training like ed3 to be the best xp again.

Doesn't have to be ed3, doesn't have to be OP. But better than or at least equal to training methods right now.

It perfectly fits their current philosophy. It's highly active, not afk, method of combat training AND it's group content.

#

We really went from active, social training to afk at this spot for multiple hours alone

compact haven
#

Don't make me play this mmo with other people.

#

That was sarcastic, but I really usually play this game alone.

rough plover
#

has there been an update and fix on the loyalty point removal early?

compact haven
#

From my experience with group slayer, the stronger player(s) will get most of the xp. It might feel bad for the weaker players. But it'd be fine to have.

compact haven
rough plover
#

i didnt, no

compact haven
#

This. He explained that the team working on removing the store finished their work two weeks early, but an internal communication error prevented them from preannouncing the store's removal.

#

He asked if the store could be reopened until the end of the month, but it's apparently quite a bit of work to do that. Since all of the loyalty rewards in it are eventually going to be made available for free, they decided it wasn't worth possibly delaying other updates to work on reopening the store.

forest vapor
compact haven
#

Couldn't you only get xp according to your contribution? It seems like a fair idea that's just not for people like me.

spiral mortar
obtuse sigil
#

People complaining have not played the updates, it is balanced and immersive.

upbeat depot
#

I have played after the most recent update gone live. There are good, neutral and bad parts about the update.

lapis moon
#

Multi casting aspects confirmed for up to 1 hour
Large amount of Solomons cosmetics will be free to get on the marketplace in bundles on 27th of April until player avatar drops
Penance moved to ancients spellbook
Still debating (Probably not) on if you're gonna be able to stack aspects

Based, good stuff, no extra power creep and fixes the main issues others had

fluid oxide
#

Will not require spend.
Requires membership.

Truly a 'free to get'.

stuck wharf
#

Aspects & Solomons Store - News Update 2

A few days ago we shared our initial reactions to the impact this week's changes introduced. As it was still early after the update we were still in the consideration stage of things - we've now had the time to firm up our plans and wanted to share these today given the importance of them.

Aspects of Vampyrism and Penance:

Changes we're making (to be implemented with the game update next Monday):

  • Multi-casting Aspects:
    • Cast the Aspect multiple times and thus extend its effect, instead of needing to cast it every twelve minutes.
    • This change will apply to ALL aspects (not just Vampyrism and Penance)
    • Every individual "cast" of the spell will extend the duration of the spell by 12 minutes (up to a maximum of 1 hour).
    • You can multi-cast by right-clicking on the Aspect icon and selecting the "Multi-cast" option.
      • Multi-casting will cast the aspect 5 times and extend it's duration from 12 minutes up to 1 hour.
      • This will consume the expected 5x cost of the associated runes in return for the 5x duration.
      • Xp granted for multi-casting will be the same as a single cast to avoid xp spamming by multi-casting different aspects back and forth.
  • Spellbook Requirements:
    • We are swapping the Penance Aspect to the Ancient Spellbook.
      Changes we're not (yet?) making: Stacking Aspects:
  • It's still too early and community feedback on this matter is too mixed for us to commit to whether we'll enable the stacking of Aspects or how we might do so. While we have a few ideas of how it could be done, our concerns around implementing such a change remain (see previous post). We feel that the game needs more time to settle into these changes before we consider if things need tweaking, for which we will also let ourselves be guided by analytics data.

Solomons Store items previously acquired via loyalty points:

As mentioned previously, our plans for reintroducing the items that were in the store would be as follows:

  • All loyalty point items that were in Solomons Store would be available in future.
  • They would be free to obtain and will not require any spend.
    We can now confirm the following:
  • A selection of packages (or "mega-bundles") will be added on the Marketplace.
    • The current plan is to make two outfit bundles, two emote bundles, one hairstyle bundle, one accessory bundle and one animation bundle.
    • All associated items previously obtainable with loyalty points would be included in these bundles.
  • These bundles will free of charge to claim by all members.
  • We are aiming to release these bundles on the Marketplace on the 27th of April.
    • The bundles will remain live until the launch of the new Player Avatar (a date for this has not yet been announced). This should give anyone who missed out due to the early shutdown of the store plenty of time to obtain the bundles.
      -Mod Anvil
stuck wharf
fallen tree
fluid oxide
#

I'm always critic when it comes to Jagex using words like "All players", "Everyone", "Free", etc. knowing it often only implies for members only.

forest vapor
#

tbf, their paying audience is their main focus

spare apex
#

seems like it resolves all reasonable issues, good position

grim drum
#

Jagex let us use all aspects at once, requirement 120 magic

crimson vapor
#

So jagex addressed the cosmetic part in an even easier and less clunky method to use.

Zero reasons to complain about loyalty store removal now, really.

forest vapor
#

yeah, they'd already said we'd be getting them free though, a while ago. only that they'd probably be available in weekly/monthly drops or something, but undecided

fallen tree
pastel geyser
#

I am glad they made some resolution to Loyalty Points store now but I think we were rightfully annoyed at them just prematurely deactivating it with only vague statements of making the stuff available in future. Because that is exactly what has been frustrating me from Day 1 onwards regarding "integrity" roadmap. "Remove first, maybe address it in future". That approach is becoming plain infuriating to me and obviously my amount of trust is rapidly declining

#

Not to mention they didn't even comment on premature closure of Loyalty store until people started complaining... and they had not one, but two opportunities to do that. Let alone any apology for inconvenience considering it was apparently error on their side

short star
#

But didn't they? Anvil explained what happened in a reddit comment - what more are you looking for?

pastel geyser
short star
#

I mean obviously based on what they said, they wouldn't have realized it wsd a mistake until players pointed out the issue

mild frost
#

Good changes!!!

short star
#

Can't really expect them to acknowledge what happened if they didn't knew an issue occured

thin knot
mild frost
#

Hope we can cast with darkness as previously we could! Thanks Jagex team❤️ changes seem great!

vital field
#

Do we know when this update rolls out? Also why are the devs communicating this on reddit? Why can't they just release a blog post on the main runescape website

upbeat depot
#

that is what has baffled me about many companies and their games in the last few years. They'll use a specific form of communication...when they have a perfectly workable launcher to put info on.

fallen tree
stiff prism
vital field
elder abyss
#

KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK! Excellent resoltution on both fronts! 😁

viscid delta
#

I still think vampyrism is too weak to take an aspect slot.

Anytime I'd want to use it, Darkness or AD takes precedence

pure raft
short star
#

Vamp should not be buffed - it causes more issues. It doesn't need to feel like it has to "compete" with other aspects. It has its use cases, even if small

meager crown
#

I don't think it should either. There's so many things you can bring if you still can't sustain

upbeat depot
#

I like how their plan for removing FOMO is to create more FOMO by making the removed cosmetics and emotes available for a limited time.

spiral mortar
upbeat depot
#

With the vague removal date of 'when we do another update that also has no release date'.

#

Not that we can trust any dates, times, or other measurements of duration provided by Jagex.

short star
#

I mean I trust that the dates given by them are whats planned and can be subject to change. I can also acknowledge that the people who work there can make mistakes and appreciate when they: acknowledge what happened, plan a fix, implement a fix.

upbeat depot
#

Yeah, I do agree. It is certainly better then a large number of options they could have taken.

#

As long as they clearly and properly and don't take away things early again, I don't have as much cause to complain about it and will immediately grab everything on the 27th.

worthy crane
#

The bundles as a short term fix are more than acceptable IMO

#

Everyone can grab them before the end of april as promised and everyone else can get them as they roll out at later dates

upbeat depot
#

There is a upside to this plan though: any account with membership can get it, so my alt account for OSRS can also log on and get them, and that alt has membership right now due to the League.

#

Though personally I would have preferfed a 'free to current members and past members within X timeframe' that might be too complicated to implement so this is pretty acceptable.

grizzled warren
golden aurora
#

btw the fix released a while back for ice strykwyrms didnt fix things, combust and corruption now deal damage but crackling, aftershock and the t95 spec still deal no damage at all

neat cobalt
#

I’m okay with the stacking to an hour. Very fair. Still annoyed we can’t have tiered aspects (like t1 being vampirism and penance and t2 all other aspects so t1 and t2 can be used together but t1s or t2s can’t be used together)

fluid oxide
mild frost
vale vigil
#

If there is some worry about lack of clarity or confusion: could easily make it a level up unlock that at a certain magic level you can upkeep a lesser/greater aspect at the same time. Or something of that accord.

safe sable
#

Does that mean animate dead can be stacked cast for an hr?

#

And or darkness?

verbal jetty
#

This change will apply to ALL aspects (not just Vampyrism and Penance)
it appears so

safe sable
rose matrix
#

Will darkness still go away on death with these changes

buoyant walrus
#

probably, just dont die

rose matrix
#

Vampyrism doesn't but darkness will Frog

mild frost
mild frost
buoyant walrus
#

oh did they check that flag for vamp and penance? is darkness the only aspect that clears on death?

hallow harbor
#

Animate dead too

clever socket
mild frost
#

Maybe they could make a change if you die aspects stay on since your paying for them like darkness animate dead. Would be a good change

forest vapor
#

Its not like it costs much, its just the pain of reapplying it.

compact haven
#

If you multicast every time, and die, it could cost a lot. I know I'll still be single-casting.

spare apex
#

I think with multicasting it'd be a good change

placid furnace
#

call it whatever you wish. an aura by any other name is still an aura in concept and function.

if powercreep is a concern, i think aspect stacking would only be a (small) part of the problem - what about powders? are they not essentially the same in function?

how about the future of aspects? would we expect to see a range or melee style aspects that have both offensive and defensive natures, similar to TA and AD?

therefore, i still question about the design of vamp and penace being "nerfed"

as someone had shared, vamp and penace could be considered as "utility" or even "support" aspects, so they shouldn't be categorised with "combat" aspects, while they do not necessarily have a direct impact on "powercreep" like combat ones would

spiral mortar
#

I still used super a bunch of super restores even with penance + darkness running

#

6.1 drain is quite taxing

calm tinsel
# placid furnace call it whatever you wish. an aura by any other name is still an aura in concept...

It is still power creep, people just don't notice when they're already so "QOLd" and doing things that are easy, which is most of the game. If you scrape by a fight because you didn't need as much food or had more space for non-prayer supplies due to the restoration, it made a difference. If you could win anyways but it's more convenient, you're still stronger because it's part of your budget despite not being DPS.

For most of the aura system's life, they were timelocked, didn't cool off when logged out, and you were making choices on things like "I'm giving up 5-15% bonus damage for the convenience of less prayer drain", so when they kept phasing that out and did things like the combat rebalance which gave you a lot of the DPS focused stuff for free (120s more than offset the accuracy, the damage bonus on zerk auras never worked under boost ults which have enormous uptime anyways, they changed a bunch of math and base numbers to be far stronger, and pretty much the only people not notably better off were the super top end already pushing the boundaries and not relying on this) and the combat auras were removed, vamp and penance were literally freebies, there was no competition, and they were stacking with pocket slot, aspects, and now other combat auras in the form of those auras being base player potency.

Being able to nullify prayer as a stat isn't just "basic QOL and convenience", the powder is half as strong and people, including top end players, are willing to cough up 1.4m an hour running it due to it freeing up space and streamlining combat when you don't have to even consider prayer, and that's why it's not the same thing as the low level 60k-an-hour buff we now have which is even stronger in numbers. Similarly that's why they're more okay (it's still kind of BS) with the blessed flask existing behind an obscene grind and manually drinking from it, but not allowing it to hold super restores. If you want the flask, 12 gp per PP, not 1.7

forest vapor
# placid furnace call it whatever you wish. an aura by any other name is still an aura in concept...

Lifesteal definitely isnt utility, nor is automatic prayer restore. Both are directly related to making players stay alive, so theres no reason to call them 'lesser' than the others. They are just not used for the same thing. You cant argue that you arnt harder to kill using vamp. And penance is mostly an afk thing, which afk is already too strong in that we have constant problems with people afking endgame content. Theres no reason for either to actually exist, let alone stack with other major defensives.

mild frost
calm tinsel
#

But you couldn't stack vamp/penance with zerker auras and now you effectively can (without the defense penalty too). They shifted all of that into the core kit, and effectively only the very top performers who couldn't care less about this didn't get notable damage and accuracy increases across the game, with no more aura slot competitors against vamp/penance so they were just free power budget in the player's kit. They could have been pocket items that WOULD have still been compatible with AD and such, but people said no because they didn't want to give up pocket slot damage so there they go.

placid furnace
# forest vapor Lifesteal definitely isnt utility, nor is automatic prayer restore. Both are dir...

i must be very disconnected from the game then.

there is afkable endgame strategies? like i can afk zamorak 2k enrage?

penace has a "slight" downside to it that you NEED to take damage to restore. if you don't, you don't get prayer restore.

that is why i didn't mind having penace have a larger downside to it that the player takes extra damage (e.g. 5% damage increase taken) if it meant it could be a separate buff altogether that allows using it alongside an aspect like darkness

hence, it's all about trade-offs, is it not?

if we want to stack buffs, then there has to be a penalty/cost in order to offset that large powerboost

similar to how berserk has the largest damage boost, but at the cost of taking increased damage

placid furnace
forest vapor
placid furnace
forest vapor
#

most players dont use zerk? id argue most players dont use vamp for slayer either, since dragontooth + bonecrusher, both very easily obtainable upgrades give unlimited prayer, and hence unlimited soul split, and thats more than enough for most slayer targets.

placid furnace
forest vapor
#

'doubt'? you're just wrong, since its opinionated, but since it was my comment, what i consider endgame is important. people are doing content that late afk, and thats a massive issue.

#

since people cant unanimously decide what endgame/lategame/midgame is, it really doesnt matter when it is. what matters is what im referring to, and that content IS afk-able.

placid furnace
#

ye, so the question is WHY do you consider it endgame?

if it's an arbitrary and baseless opinion, then there's no objectivity to it nor the arguments that follows which references to it as the reason for argument, no?

in that case, i could also arbitrarily consider gwd1 hm as endgame, and afking it isn't a problem?

unless your argument point is afkability itself being the problem, then sure, there can be a more objective discussion and solutioning

calm tinsel
# placid furnace like i mentioned, there's different use cases for the auras. lumping the zerk w...

it's a completely fair comparison for the sake of "power creep" and "you never had to give anything up". The aura slot had a bunch of powerful effects penance and vamp had to compete with, those competitions were removed so the effects became free in the player's power budget since the combat update. The use case for penance is "damn I want to turn off one of the 3 main resources of the game, let me win", and that doesn't need to be a thing by default stacking with all other boosts for cheap/free

placid furnace
forest vapor
#

arguing over what is and isnt endgame is not at all relevant to this discussion anyways, so lets not get bogged down on whats essentially a strawman.

calm tinsel
#

if it didn't matter or was just a minor QOL thing the penance powder wouldn't be popular, it's an even weaker version of the aura, and people wouldn't be making such a big deal out of not being able to stack it with AD or, even sillier because it's not that spectacular, darkness

forest vapor
#

but when you think about it, less than 5% is probably accurate. why? because slayer dragontooth+bonecrusher solves both prayer and healing for you. why use vamp or penance at all?
not that i know the validity of the statistic.
damage is almost always the answer.

#

and most people dont do bossing btw, thats why slayer is the converstaion on statistics like that. for bossing, vamp is used less because damage is even more valuable.

calm tinsel
#

vamp and penance are low/mid level spells now, they don't need to be cure-alls matching endgame unlocks or trivializing resource management, and it's even worse when things like constant lifesteal are meant to counter damage that should be countered by armor more than anything without threatening failed mechanic damage and such

placid furnace
calm tinsel
#

That's just trying to invent new rules and exceptions for the fact that effect should be something else entirely at that point, and people would have your head for nerfing it. We're literally having this discussion because people got so mad at an even lighter nerf than that

forest vapor
#

vamp and penance arnt needed for low level, most of that content is trivial.,

#

you get more prayer sustain than you need from drops/leveling herb or paying attention at all to it as an iron, they are cheap for mains, and food is cheap and last long enough.
the content has been power crept like crazy

placid furnace
# calm tinsel That's just trying to invent new rules and exceptions for the fact that effect s...

i'm ignoring the other comments because i am not on the side of buffing without penalties.

hence, i am proposing penalties to allow stacking it (if that is the direction requested)

given that what i am inferring as your main argument point, is that "we are too powerful without any penalties"

so if i added just as much of a costly penalty, does it not meet or resolve that pain point?

or i missed out on your main pain point?

forest vapor
#

im yet to see an argument with merit as to why the buffs are needed at all

calm tinsel
#

If we're pragmatically talking about raw numbers and ways you could introduce any of these kinds of effects, yes you could come up with some way where it would come up as acceptable to design things like lifesteal and prayer restoration. None of those solutions would pass with the community because they would have actual drawbacks and requirements. Even now we're having people say "no I don't want to spell swap for penance when I'm on ancients, move it", "I don't want to click every 12 minutes", "I don't want to 5x cast it for an hour, make it a toggle", "why does it need to cost runes who cares"

#

If magic and necro had less armor and were generally more vulnerable than the other styles, as magic is in OSRS, you could justify some better blood spell/lifesteal/vamp effects. You could make that balancing point. Players don't want that. You could make some prayer restoration effects that sacrifice other stats, improve the efficiency of prayers, etc. People don't want that, as evidenced by people freaking about the current "can't stack everything" complaint

forest vapor
#

actually, the spells on a certain book was the only problem with the update.
the problem is, people mostly want free sustain so that they can ignore food/prayer restore mechanics entirely. thats the entire problem with them existing at all really. they are arguing for this to remove a reasonable cost to combat. that cost being food, prayer or using defensive abilities.

placid furnace
forest vapor
#

if we make people take more damage with them on, then you're just raising the bar for people to abuse that issue, and mostly people just do it anyways with slightly better gear or something. thats 'better', but you may as well just not have that issue in the firstplace, in not stacking.
and yeah, the QoL buff stacking good

calm tinsel
#

For the low cost of 12k, 67 magic, and soon a few quests due to the ancients book, a person can negate prayer in most of the game. Until endgame magic, and nothing for the other styles at all, there is no relevant alternative the rest of the time, all styles might as well use penance to not think about prayer

forest vapor
#

i think the only problems with buff stacking are that it may as well not have a 'cost' accociated with it at all (in terms of runes and casting the thing) at that stage, which is fair. the rune cost is trivial. the main cost involved is using it and the choice between it and otehrs

#

stacking the buff mostly means it will be used from the bank, which id argue isnt necessarily a good thing, but its QoL for bossing.

calm tinsel
#

The cost is NBD. It's 60k an hour (and even irons can now bulk purchase runes conveniently at mid levels) for an effect 2x the potency of the penance powder, and that can already be infinite prayer in most combat

#

People could have had it with darkness/AD if they had accepted losing the pocket slot's power with vamp scrim (for melee), and god book damage. Penance blood essence and god book changes like saradomin were on the table. People said "no, I don't want to give up pocket slot for this"

forest vapor
#

id argue that penance powder should have just been made 2x more common, or reduced cost to make, and thats penance solved.

calm tinsel
#

Ultimately it's an effect that shouldn't be commonly available as a generic thing in so many places, from a single thing. It's not like someone going through a bunch of steps to unlock some synergizing items, sacrificing stats, do a specific build, itemizing for prayer bonus, whatever. It's just "wow it comes back faster than I'm pretty much ever going to spend it", therefore infinite and better than even end game prayer restoration effects like the flask for most of the game.

forest vapor
#

oh, i absolutely agree. its a little too difficult to get for sure though. thats why 2x, rather than 5-10x.

#

and its even crazier that its on a cheap to use spell. but thats also a great argument against stacking. we can stack already, and its expensive, but good.

#

people use p powder, dont they? (irons maybe not)

calm tinsel
#

"My prayer lasts forever" used to be something like stacking so much prayer bonus that the drain rate was so slow that mundane restoration effects could keep up if you were conservative with spending your prayer points. Now the default assumption is it's just infinite, between penance being readily available and stronger than at launch, the mistaken buffs to the prayer necklaces during EOC on top of them super stacking in practice with skyrocketed kill speeds

forest vapor
#

id actually forgotten about that lol.
another mechanic thats useless with this.

calm tinsel
#

Both of these "auras" are bandaid solutions for minor issues that ballooned into "just be super duper OP and stop thinking about it". If prayer feels like it's in a bad spot (in common use, not "let me afk forever and negate it") then you improve the core mechanics and stats in the skill like drain rates and bonuses. If people take too much AA chip damage in common situations, armor should be better as the primary source of that stat check to make your HP last longer, not default to passive massive dps healing to negate that and mechanical/typeless/gimmick damage you failed. To add insult to injury, with EOC they removed in-combat health regen (enabled at endgame for minor HP), when that could just exist and have methods to build into that for passive HP over time that has more controllable balancing.

forest vapor
#

they'd probably have been removed entirely if we didnt have the extremely loud afk-ers/bots here complaining. but yeah, its a small minority, and it sucks to see small minorities of people getting their way, when their way is to avoid palying the game at all

calm tinsel
#

They added an infinite-prayer-at-vyres effect to sunspear for that niche Mugger

rough canopy
#

We need better cosmetics 🙁

elder abyss
#

This was a brilliant move by them. I can come up with a year's worth of new activities and goals to pursue around this improved aspect rollout. Before I was feeling my reasons to play were narrowing. Now I can play in a style that suits me. C:

buoyant walrus
mild frost
# forest vapor actually, the spells on a certain book was the only problem with the update. the...

It’s a game why you so worried we already had the buffs it didn’t change anything. People are here to enjoy a game your taking it way to serious. People want to have fun and enjoy the game. We have had penance and vampires with darkness forever so who cares if we maintain it. Most of you say you don’t use them anyways so why are you arguing about it? I think it’s fine if you can stack them. Most people that say it wasn’t used much together anyways if that’s true then why argue about the situation. Just allow different aspects to be on at a time, 1 lower Tier aspect and 1 higher tier aspect. Mix and match. I’ve seen many people arguing it’s power creep yet it’s been a thing forever😂

buoyant walrus
#

"forever", without a tradeoff they existed for about a month, and jagex released data showing most people didn't actually use auras much at all. That's the consideration that's happening, way more people are going to have access to and know about the aspects.

crimson vapor
#

"its been a thing forever" vampyrism and penance had tradeoff vs better combat auras for 99% of their existence. The only reason they werent removed as auras in combat update in march was because they wanted to have replacements ready in time.

using vampyrism/penance freely on top of everything else has not been a thing forever

and with how aspects work, the expectation would now be (and encounters design to account for it) that you always run two aspects if you can. Because it is a powercreep, in particular vamp.

mild frost
willow grail
#

I still don't get how casting 5x penance is different from having an aura running for an hour, oh wait, it now costs 1.2m in runes, guess we lost out again.

short star
mild frost
#

Yea it’s the same people in here screaming power creep that don’t even use the auras😂 so who cares if we can stack them with darkness like some of you said people didn’t use vampires or penance anyways.

crimson vapor
#

Difference is also that we removed the better alternatives to vampyrism/penance and baked them into progression, so we had to move the tradeoff it had to somewhere else in the system to not just powercreep everything way more.

mild frost
#

When did they say changes going live? Monday?

compact haven
#

Yes, Monday.

crimson vapor
#

We don't need to make up how much these costs in runes an hour

image.png
mild frost
#

I hate to break everyone’s hearts but no matter what you say the game is going to continue to have power creep, when 120 HP and defense come out, when new powerful weapons come out, when more OP items and books come out… and we have some people calling vampires aura power creep but none of them complain when new items and new stuff comes out it’s very funny to me😂 but yea let’s pretend some auras that give a small amount of prayer is OP

short star
#

Powercreep isnt a problem, allowing poorly designed power creep is a problem

crimson vapor
#

It will have powercreep, but that doesn't mean we should always powercreep everything. If jagex implemented godmode tomorrow it wouldn't be an improvement.

In particular when vamp/penance would have usage with all styles in practically all fights and would so forever unless you add some new aspect that specifically compete with them. It will stack with everything forever

If you do a new weapon, at least it compete with the old weapons.

But if you want to know, I'll absolutely complain if something is broken, regardless of what that new thing is.

#

extra lifesteal everywhere for the rest of the games existence for all styles at close to no cost is silly powercreep that will be so expected to run that it will in fact be balanced around

mild frost
#

The hypocrisy in here is funny, let’s go ahead and take our shard of genesis as well, let’s take away perks on gear as well😂 no matter what we will continue to have busted stuff having Penance with darkness is fine and for majority of people this is what they want. I’d love to put out a poll and prove this. Only some of the high level players dislike it. MAKE POLLS GREAT AGAIN🙏

crimson vapor
#

You can do penance (half strength of aura/aspect) with darkness right now. Go use powder.

mild frost
short star
#

You lost me at comparing shards to a vamp/penance aspect

crimson vapor
#

No. But if you're anywhere you need darkness AND penance, you're earning enough to pay for them.

Because most places you can just run penance and no darkness and be perfectly fine.

mild frost
crimson vapor
#

Your point is "power creep happen at some point so we should make a universal power creep to the game with no tradeoffs"

short star
crimson vapor
#

You know you can always drink a prayer potion. At some point I wonder if penance everywhere is this needed why bother having the prayer point system.

short star
#

Also heres the big one: Stating that most players want it does not mean its a good system

mild frost
#

It’s the simple fact that it’s all power creep regardless yet you’re complaining over 2 aspects that we already had and could use together prior. Taking away from the community is never the answer

crimson vapor
#

At this point i'm just tired about complete lack of acknowledgement of the previous tradeoff that existed with these two auras

mild frost
crimson vapor
#

Can you give a single place in the game where you need darkness + penance? Just the one?

mild frost
crimson vapor
mild frost
short star
#

Respectfully, the vocal minority of players who are pushing their displeasure even after they are adding more to the aspects, dont have a good look at what is a good system here

crimson vapor
mild frost
short star
#

Players who want unchecked power with no tradeoff don't understand game balance and theres nothing wrong with that, lets just acknowledge that

crimson vapor
#

darkness + penance? No.

Anywhere I'd want darkness, other auras were better choices. Now I have those auras into normal progression, and see no reason to get a bonus penance on top.

Anywhere I'd use penance, I'd have no need for darkness.

If I somehow needed both I'd be able to use powder because holy hell then I'm taking a lot of damage.

#

Wait you're taking "you didn't use them together because its unneeded" as "you didn't use auras"?

mild frost
#

I think everyone gets an opinion. Some people in here don’t want what majority wants

crimson vapor
#

and we've no idea what majority wants or is ok with

short star
#

Thats fine, but those players ignore game balance for the sake of qol

mild frost
#

Penance and vamp should be okay with darkness, Elly you said you don’t use auras as well? So won’t affect you either right?

#

At the end of the day darkness plus vampires or penance should be thing! Let’s vote baby!!

crimson vapor
#

if those were made to not have a tradeoff I'd literally use them everywhere and be far stronger

short star
#

I used auras when they were available to use

mild frost
#

Yea trade off being paying for runes

crimson vapor
#

Yeah I didn't do pvm without an aura on. Vampyrism and penance just were the weaker options most of the time.

short star
#

I chose dps auras when I needed more dmg, used vamp when I needed for sustain, used penance when I wanted more afk

mild frost
#

My thing is might as well delete them because nobody using them over darkness

short star
#

Each had a place, but the tradeoff was there - which is the point

#

Why? Vamp is better than darkness where bosses cant miss - has its place

mild frost
#

Really they had a place yet a few of you said only 6% of people were using those auras something isn’t adding up

crimson vapor
#

Thats objectively not true.

Why would you not use penance over darkness anywhere soulsplit heals you back up enough?

Why would you not use vampyrism over darkness where darkness dont work (like rasial) or you take tiny chip damage where dodging is minimal but slight passive healing is great?

short star
#

Imagine this: Vamp and penance had niche places they were good - sounds like its adding up

mild frost
crimson vapor
#

I mean the average slayer creature you've got zero need for darkness

Either penance if you take a bit of damage or vampyrism if you don't would be better

mild frost
#

Let’s put it to a vote…

#

I love how determined you two are trying to convince everyone your opinions are better than most

short star
#

For what purpose?

#

All Kobra and I are doing is explaining how game design works lol - you're just ignoring it

crimson vapor
#

We'll slap it in with vote for "should you get 50m every day you log in" vote and "thrice a week guarantee that next boss kill is a rare rop" vote

Why not have a vote to make vampyrism AND penance both passives at all times?

Why not have a vote to buff them too?

mild frost
#

How we already had them working together in the game forever?

crimson vapor
#

I swear to god we're just dancing past the previous tradeoff every fucking time as if "they worked together before" is the only thing that can be hyperfocused on

mild frost
crimson vapor
stuck wharf
# mild frost Let’s put it to a vote…

Not even OSRS polls integrity changes that are crucial to the game's health, and for good reason. "Make it OP," while fun for some players, is not good game design

mild frost
short star
#

Players would ruin the game if they had that kind of power voting

crimson vapor
# mild frost Because survivability is different than raw power output

Survivability means you can avoid doing other things that has tradeoff

Like, maybe I dont need to resonance. or reflect. or eat a high healing piece of food (-3% adrenaline). or several other things that I'd use instead of doing more damage at the moment. Because i've had extra sustain on top the entire fight.

forest vapor
# mild frost It’s a game why you so worried we already had the buffs it didn’t change anythin...

Have you thought for a second that most people would enjoy the game without them existing? Fot example, adding a button that instantly completes all achievements would ruin the game for others (just an extreme example to remove the dumb we can use it, you can ignore it argument).
Vamp is at most, a botting aura, and a crutch for people to lean on instead of learning the game. Its not necessary for anything other than ignoring game mechanics.

obtuse sigil
#

This is an integrity issue and they made a good choice - but on other things

spiral mortar
#

But instead my savings were deleted completely. Very unhappy. Also, it may be power creep for melee/range/mage, which sorta maybe got the positive part of the zerker auras baked in (I don’t know the calculations yet), but necro got nothing close to that increase. I think maharajat crit was better than 12% equlibrium (again the lack of hard numbers causes issues), but now that’s gone and 14% equilibrium is slightly better but at the cost of a perk slot and a lot of cost/effort to gamble that perk in. As for the loyalty points, again, stuff that was paid for was taken away from members and f2p, only to be somewhat given back in a lesser form to people who are members for a limited time.

calm tinsel
#

"Integrity is when buff me and give free stuff"

vital field
spiral mortar
obtuse spear
spiral mortar
fallen tree
spiral mortar
vague ivy
#

Would have looked really good for them if they announced that and allowed players to preemptively buy those auras from the loyalty store

spiral mortar
#

And if they gave everyone the cosmetics first, before removing the store. Not that I use them, but it’s the principle of the matter. Especially with so much integrity messaging.

verbal jetty
#

tbf, if we assume that all the current dates/plans were already in effect/planned out and the only "surprise" was the fact that the loyalty shop got closed early, then i imagine the plan was for the loyalty shop to close around april 27th, the same day that we get the bundles for all the cosmetics that were in it

spiral mortar
verbal jetty
#

personally, i like to subscribe to the idea that not everything is a big conspiracy and sometimes shit just happens. Like, logically speaking, their initial date for the shop closing was "end of april" right? April 27th is 100% the end of april. This lines up with the news of the cosmetics bundles.

I'm not as jaded to jagex as others are, but if you just for a second, treat them as people who make mistakes and give them the benefit of the doubt, then it actually does make perfect sense that this was their original plan

vital field
spiral mortar
mild frost
#

Well I say reverse it and give us back ability to use penance or vamp with darkness.

upbeat depot
#

Yeah, pretty sure that when the system existed you could absolutely spend Loyalty Points regardless of your Membership status. You just couldn't get more points without Membership.

#

For me, the removals aren't the issue, just the fact that Jagex screwed up and removed access prematurely. They have revealed an okay but not great solution to this.

#

Personally I feel that the cosmetics should be free for all members and former members, but there may be a logistical/technical reason they cannot do it that way.

forest vapor
#

Well, cosmetics will be free the second your a member again and claim them, so im not sure what the issue is. Its not like its a limited time buy, right?

verbal jetty
#

it is limited time but we don't know the limit on it

The bundles will remain live until the launch of the new Player Avatar (a date for this has not yet been announced).

upbeat depot
#

Well, not everyone has the income to drop what is now close to 20 CAD on Membership.

#

Yes, there's Bonds, yes the mobile client can get a couple days of Membership for a few bucks but that's not the point.

#

If they allowed former Members a chance to get it too, that would extend some good will to the playerbase as a whole.

spare apex
#

I don't hate the idea of stacking e.g. vamp with another aspect if it comes with a direct dps tradeoff. reduce all damage done by 15% when both are active and it's probably ok

calm tinsel
#

penance shouldn't exist. Vamp is in an awkward spot where you could easily remove it with a couple of tweaks to other things. Making a new space and rule set for "stacking aspects" just turns into another excuse to stretch everything else, and not everything is about damage

spare apex
#

true

upbeat depot
#

At the same time though, if they just deleted Penance and Vamp people would be even more mad about it.

forest vapor
#

Probably, but i doubt they'd quit over it. The same people probably arnt doing much pvm, unless botting/afking bosses, and at that point it probably isnt a big loss.

upbeat depot
#

There probably was better solutions to the problem, but this is likely what we are stuck with for the time being.

forest vapor
#

Yeah, there's always a better solution though, especially in hindsight. Its not too bad to cast a bunch of buffs every hour

calm tinsel
#

at "once an hour" you can just precast it before you start doing the thing, like turning on an aura, and you won't even be wasting the rune inventory space for an hour long trip. By extension, if for some reason you wanted to use crumble undead or cheaper normal spells you'll be able to actually do that with a stacked hour of animate dead on the normal book.

upbeat depot
#

It does suck a bit more then auras, but at least you can use them at will effectively...if you're on the right spellbook.

calm tinsel
#

prayer costs should never have been a toggle so the minor inconvenience of "I'm going to reactivate not having to care about prayer" is absolutely minimal friction. Vamp is a bit more whatever with its falloff in potency and better alternatives

spiral mortar
# calm tinsel "Integrity is when buff me and give free stuff"

That kind of voter is the Achilles’ Heel of democracies. But consider, loyalty points were earned/paid for, auras were earned/paid for, aura refreshes were earned/paid for, and they were all deleted, without refund. On which side does integrity lie?

calm tinsel
spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

All of those were things that were free handouts or bundled in as freebies with something else you wanted anyways, with warnings about them being discontinued far in advance and a number of effects being replaced or compensated. If someone spent Reaper points on refreshes, sure they lost out on some value, but even Reaper points have been made more plentiful for most players since the cap was raised to numbers you'd expect of a maxed player doing extended tasks.

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

Why are you comparing a run where you micromanage prayer juggling for every incoming splat to "it just doesn't net drain because every time I'm attacked I get it all back with no attention at all", especially when the former had you under kill pressure of taking damage over time from mistakes and the latter doesn't with the lifesteal and low damage from mobs?

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

you can still do that, although the more precise numbers on prayer drain make it harder to do for the exact moment. If that's the comparison, you can prayer flick only when you need the prayer and stretch it out an obscene amount of time where other forms of prayer restoration like a renewal will be net gains in prayer and then you don't need to bring a lot. When you do something like that you are engaging with and playing around the resource instead of negating it. This doesn't even include all of the other power shifts in our favor where now you could just be doing monsters like that without regards for prayer in the first place

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
upbeat depot
#

It is a bit odd that they're not compensating for the impending deletion of Loyalty Points, given that Oddments got compensation.

#

But it's also harder to put a value on LP in the first place.

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

they warned us months in advance

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

Was there a binding agreement that their free handouts they would never be removed or devalued in any way?

spiral mortar
calm tinsel
#

you also consider it a problem that you might use a prayer potion at some point

spiral mortar