Road to Restoration - Aura Overhaul Design Update

[pallid salmon]

No it dont thats highly unfair balance

[charred oyster]

"necro is the utility style. It should not do the most dmg because of it"

[lucid pond]

I feel like I'm missing something. Why would making bone shield not work with melee not make you use a shield anyway for res / reflect and etc? I use generally use a shield switch with melee? Only thing I've never made is a defender as it seems useless?

[pallid salmon]

Pfft necro shouldnt even be in this game it disrupts everything else lol

[charred oyster]

Necro is fine in the game - we just need the other styles to match its power at low/mid game

[pallid salmon]

You couldnt use dw abilies while shield equiped defender allowed that

[lucid pond]

Didn't know that I just switched for the one skill then switched back. Interesting

[pallid salmon]

It not about power it dosent fit the original triangle design so it breaks the balance some styles worked better in other places that all was broken with necro intro

Necro had some good aspects too but it open up alot negative aspects as well

[median nova]

bros got some takes.

[charred oyster]

"its not about power"

"its breaks the balance"

so its about power

[pallid salmon]

Balance isnt always power no

[charred oyster]

Care to elaborate?

[pallid salmon]

If anything power needs droped on all levels

[junior lintel]

Really like the Crux Shop getting greenfingers. I hope it has the different tiers too since itll feel nice for progression

[charred oyster]

Like what? Be specific.

[pallid salmon]

Got phone call be back

[median nova]

lmao

[charred oyster]

Anyways - greenfingers in that shop is very nice

[median nova]

I do think i perfer the idea of all the aspects being spellbook agnostic. Having Temp Anomaly and Penance on Standard, Animate dead and vamp on ancients, just makes it weird. Maybe if standard also had spell book swap i wouldn't feel so odd about it

[lofty forge]

Aspect tablets

[charred oyster]

Yeah I can agree with that - but I also like how they are somewhat annoying to use, because I am someone who wanted both vamp/penance tossed in the bin with no replacement

[median nova]

i like this, they where wanting options for making poh better

[junior lintel]

Salvation being tied to cremation is a fun idea. Its gonna make sacred oil a massive demand again so thatll help liven up quite a few areas again

Shades of Morton was already semi active post gim so this makes Sacred Oil a good money maker if people want to afk vyres in the future again.

Its active on its home world periodically if anyone is interested. And if I remember correctly you can solo run it now too with some tech but not sure how feasable it is with mtx dummies going away.

[median nova]

General store there sales dummies for baiting the shades. Its pretty easy to solo tbh

[junior lintel]

ahh was that it? thought it was combat dummies for some reason

[proud yoke]

Them being aspects via magic isn't a bad way to implement them but prob not the best way to go about it. Depending on the magic lvl required this will lock out noobs, also depending on the spellbook too as lunars and ancients require numerous quests. Further, 12 mins obv doesn't compare to the 1hr timer. Also it being an aspect means you won't be able to use vamp and penance along with existin aspects like you could before (animeisdead & darkness) which were ofc also used together for certain methods.

The good about aspects is that obv they are balanced by rune usage, but yeah, I don't like the aspects idea because there def can be better way to implement these. Def better than the book/scrim.

[near echo]

So I know they said they werent refunding auras/loyalty points, but man I wish I could get the points I did earn and spend on auras, refunded as wicked pouches, but either way I just hope the game turns out for the better. Also hoping the corruption/salvation wing effects are somehow kept cus it was neat seeing them active

[kind idol]

i like the idea of the aspects but i believe we should be allowed 1 aspect active per category (or an increasing amount of aspects as a leveling bonus on magic - still limited to 1 per category though).

[proud yoke]

They should just give everyone all the loyalty point cosmetics tbh, it's prob the best way to go about it imo

[kind idol]

in regards of the vyre aura wings

[kind idol]

They going to be added to the Free Monthly Marketplace Drop cycles when the Store closes

[pallid salmon]

Back sorry but just the fact i can dish out 700 to 800k dpm is kinda rediculose alots bosses can be 1 ticked or done in few seconds and maybe its the bosses that need adjusted but the level of current power is excessive

[lean pecan]

Tbh kinda true

[charred oyster]

Okay sure - I am a bit confused on where this conversation is going since you have kinda been all over the place. Styles are very strong yes, can agree with that

[hollow quest]

Yup that went from bone shield is a problem to: let's nerf dps for all styles ... That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Although I do think we have to be careful with players wanting everything without having to give up any dps. Similar to what we saw with the pocketslot drama.

[pallid salmon]

She asked for specific on power needing droped

[nova jasper]

wheres the nerf?

[hollow quest]

That was a comment on this.

[nova jasper]

aspects are fine

animate dead is useless unless you use magic tank and darkness is pretty ehh (and can troll)

[proud yoke]

The problem with that is say there is a cosmetic you want from the loyalty store. Are people really expected to check every month for it? Or how long until the cosmetic you want is the freebie? Next month? 2 years?

[nova jasper]

oh ok lol

[proud yoke]

They are fine, but imo there can be better ways to implement the aura effects

[hollow quest]

I do like most of the proposed changes in the blog, I do hope we will get the aspect tablets, like suggested earlier. But I'm still a bit unsure if I like the aspect of penance.

It would just have made way more sense as an early godbook that required pages (or just rebalance golden roses). Prayer potions / renewals should remain relevant and it is strange to replace them with some runes. Personally I use Penance a lot with Darkness / animate dead for chill combat.

[nova jasper]

its only 2 of the auras anyways

and being locking out noobs is good since you shouldnt be able to get such a good upgrade earlygame anyways

and the 12 min timer is fine since ppl are do that for animate dead and darkness + it lines up with ovls, so you can just reapply aspect every 2 ovls

[charred oyster]

Can we just delete penance/vamp completely? 🥲

[nova jasper]

ngl its better like this since having animate dead and vamp and penace active is too strong

aspects will require you to think abt tradeoffs and benefits which is better

[nova jasper]

add penance as a new reso/divert

reduces next hit taken and turns dmg into prayer frfr

[charred oyster]

Get penguin a chefs hat

[hollow quest]

I think it is fine for vamp, for penance not really given that prayer flasks and the blessed flask is also in the game. Penance gives you no real power. It just helps with inventory space for mobs that drops lots of things and saves you a bit on the prayer potions.

[lucid pond]

+1 This. Current accounts get all the cosmetics and new accounts can have the rotating shop. Keeps the vets happy without draining resources. RS3 does not want to bleed vets while not attracting new players at the same time. The count is already dangerous low (usually 20k when I look but can vary) so something in good faith may help

[ruby coral]

i think you are mistaken the porpuse of penance, its for increase afkness

[hollow quest]

It is used both for afk'ing and for not having to think about prayer during bossing. For afk'ing I would just have preferred it to just eat way a part of our dps so you get less kills/hr.

It is not like you can't have the old penance aura effect back with Powder of penance + a Holy scarab. It just forces irons to do their daily flower run or spend a lot of time at the Garden of Kharid.

[crude scaffold]

They need to allow players to have two aspects at a time, and I think that makes things more fair especially for new players to the game

or leave vamp and penance aura in the game and do not touch

[lucid pond]

For the amount of time loyal points in regards to the auras comes up and heated just giving cosmetics and keeping the shop should make everyone happy. Yes people got thier fill of it I know but I think if I'm understanding correctly some people feel slighted. OSRS lets people do events to get all the old cosmetics and while I'm not saying RS3 should mimic everything I think that would be be helpful. Maybe even holding an road to integrity in game event with the cosmetics given? Could be like the twitch meet the mods or whatever? Could serve double to gather feedback from those who don't use social media and to get cosmetics into the player base

[crude scaffold]

I also think not doing something to help with failing agility courses and burning food nerfs those skills really bad, and most players do not like agility to begin with, and so I think you should really consider buffing success rates on courses. If you do not believe me please make an account right now and go do 1-99 agility and tell me if it does not need to be tweaked.

[ruby coral]

would be great if they separate aspects by tiers, depending on how good they are, that way animate dead + penance aura method wouldnt dissapear

[ruby coral]

to be honest, use penance aura in "true" (high lvl) pvm sounds like griefing, more if you are in a team

[hollow quest]

Yea definitely not good for using in a team; but solo it is fine at NM Arch Glacor (5 mechanic), low enrage solo Zammy (especially with the entire dungeon) and things like that.

[nova jasper]

ngl i think ppl are just spoiled by auras lol

i started playing last year and never used penance and only used vamp aura like 3 times, and i am doing pretty well

stuff like prayer sustain really isnt hard without aura at all, theres penance power, prayer restore, elven ritual, and holy scarab if you are doing low level content

[ruby coral]

and they are in his right to be spoiled i mean, isnt auras exist since 10 years ago?

[proud yoke]

Would've personally prefered they be rewards lasting at least 1hr through skills that lack utility, like constr or Agility. If they wanted something that's already implemented. Imo, just buffing penance powder and making a new vamparism powder would've been better. Boosts can last 1hr, can be bought by players, you can use them with the existing aspects, no quests required, etc. etc.

[proud yoke]

It was really nice doing holiday events in osrs and getting all cosmetics at once after

[tawny locust]

that's make AD+darkness too OP, but what IMO might work is if those 2 (and maybe future ones) would be considered a major aspect, and vamp/penance being a minor - where you can pair any major with any minor or something... or each of the aspects have mana or something (essentially, points) associated with them and depending on set thresholds (TBD) you have x amount of mana pool that'll allow you to use aspects. This would open it up for scaling from being able to use a minor, to having to choose beteen minor and major, to being able to use one of each

or simply being able to use 2 aspects except for AD+darkness when meeting a certain threshold in the game (certain levels, achievements or even maybe a good use for wars points since auras are being removed from there?)

[ruby coral]

i think it would be a good magic 120 cape perk (or high lvl unlock), "combine a major aspect with a minor one"

[tawny locust]

120 feels a bit high imo

[patent needle]

This honestly feels like it should be a reaper crew reward.

[tawny locust]

have they mentioned whats happening with wars points anywhere?

[kind idol]

a leveling benefit of magic could easily be to allow multiple diffect aspects. AD+darkness are the same aspect (aspect of evasion) so you would be allowed both

[tawny locust]

aspect of evasion vs aspect of persistence 😛

[digital rover]

Let's just combine Tank and DPS armor into 1 with a high enough invention so I can benefit from both.

/s

[ruby coral]

i dont think so, darkness + AD is too strong, both should be considered high tier and wouldnt be put together

[tawny locust]

one of each aspect

[kind idol]

well right now we have 3 categories of aspects "aspects of evasion" (AD/darkness), "aspects of power" (temporal anomaly) and the new one being "aspects of substain" (penance/vamp).
i dont see why we shouldnt allowing 1 per category to be used, even if we have to earn that ability via reward or leveling benefit

[proud yoke]

Adding a new category to aspects seems unnecessary when the effects could go somewhere else.

[tawny locust]

@ cue, yeah i agree with that, i do actually think the seperate category is necessary if both are to be used

[kind idol]

oops i meant wouldnt* lol

unessassary maybe, but they already said that is what they are doing. but right now the category serves no purpose as you are just allowed 1 aspect full stop

the categories are not something i came up with. its esablished already. they just serve no purpose right now and im saying they potentially should

[tawny locust]

in saying that, if they are ever going to combine tank and power armour that'd make anomaly+ad insanely OP too

[kind idol]

as it stands in current live game, whether u do or do not is irrelevant, it is possible to use vamp/penance aura with darkness/AD. with the rework as outlined without expansion on the limitations to aspects that will no longer be possible

[knotty monolith]

A friend of mine is of the opinion we should get 2 aspects, 1 for evasion/damage (currently animate dead/darkness/temp anomaly) and 1 for sustain (vamp/penance) but I'd argue that vamp is effectively another form of evasion. It won't reduce your damage taken, but still increases the amount of punishment you can handle. I think the correct choice is to either make penance not be an aspect or take a hard, long look at what the goal of boss effects that drain prayer is. It is an additional hurdle that adds resource management complexity, but it's also a nuisance in some places because the rate at which your prayer drains becomes inconsistent, especially like at AoD, where the prayer drain scales up the more of your prayer points you currently have. Furthermore, for ironmen in the longterm it adds an additional gearing hurdle for the amount of supply prep involved. That's not necessarily a bad thing, to be clear, but it is a consideration to be made.

[signal surge]

penance is the odd one out to me (setting aside temporal anomaly of course) the other 3 aspects are all very clearly a form of attrition, you pick the one that benefits you the most

but prayer is like another layer of gameplay than that direct damage in damage out attrition

[rotund maple]

I think AD being labelled as an aspect of evasion is a bit of a misnomer since dodge tanking and tank... tanking have different implications, even though the venn diagram might have some overlap

[distant jungle]

It's both tbf, given that it directly provides survivability (and damage). It's almost a hybrid state of the offensive/defensive aspects, but with additional management on top of it

[rocky forge]

I mean, you're using Penance to maintain Soulsplit or prot prayers mostly right?

[fair rune]

You have to be on ancient magic to use vampirism?!!!! I don't mind having to unlock ancients to unlock it, but having to be using that spellbook is like almost taking away the affect from the game. That spellbook already gives a similar affect as an option.

[distant jungle]

And actual offensive combat prayers

[fair rune]

Having an aura last an hour was an extra reason to play for that hour. Your taking that reason to play away. I see how causing people to need to play hard for that hour is a problem. I think a better approach would be to give them an hours worth of the affects but not make them use them during a limited time. Once activated they last a number of kills or amount of damage or... I know I should have said this earlier in the revamp process.

[worldly flicker]

this still retains the problem of actively disincentivising play until the aura is available again. The time-limited structure was a core part of the problem and a design retaining any part of it would not fix the issue

[fair rune]

I see it as an extra incentive to play. You see it as a reason to stop playing when it runs out. I'm not convinced that's the best way to look at it, but it does give me food for thought.

[loud imp]

Soul rune cost is a bit harsh imo for vamp

[north trellis]

I have (had) a ton of refreshes for extending it if I wanted

Could have turned it into a divine charge like system based on time, but I don’t see that happening

[distant jungle]

30 soul runes an hour to maintain vamp aura is near nothing, a lot of the mobs that drop soul runes drop 20+ at 1/10 rates even if you don't craft them (Plus plenty of bosses just shit them out)

[rocky forge]

the main thing is low level sources

but there are low level sources, even discounting Zammy crafters at Ourania because there's other mobs around them

[north trellis]

I am unhappy about my stuff being deleted, where they are moving it to (for people to unlock or pay for again) is not what I am talking about

[tepid plank]

I already have maxed FFD. I do not want to do heists or safecracking. I don't engage with these - I only prefer to afk pickpocket. Please reward the pilfer points for the cost of FFD unlock on release for the people who already have the aura. Free unlock essentially.

[north trellis]

I used penance for thieving before too 😂

The damage helped replenish my prayer for light form or whatever it’s called

[distant jungle]

If it's being given for free to people who didn't earn it before, then it might as well just become a free global unlock for everyone.
There's very little point adding it as an unlock if they're just then going to add it to a bunch of people for free

[north trellis]

I mainly used it for active bossing, and it will now conflict with darkness whereas it could run concurrently with it before

[distant jungle]

Can still run concurrently because, unless I've missed something, Penance Powder itself still exists.

[worldly flicker]

and fortunately literally everyone will be doing more damage so everyone needs less food and has more space for prayer potions

[distant jungle]

In a weird twist of events, needing food also now makes you need less food (Because of being less punishing to eat) as well

[steady scarab]

yea nobody running running vamp or penance as a spell over darkness, i dont agree with it being moved to a spell

i say make them prayers low level prayers low drain rate,,,,

[north trellis]

That can already be used concurrently with penance aura and darkness

[steady scarab]

they could increse penance powder making it more useful

[charred oyster]

I think both are in a perfect spot as aspectts - I would prefer to see apsects outside of specific styles though as its own thing

[steady scarab]

no i disagree they are bad as aspects nobody using them over darkness or animate dead spells

[charred oyster]

Thats fine, dont use them then - you made a choice, which is entirely the point 🙂

[steady scarab]

well nothing is solidified so they can still change what they change them to since they already ruled out pocket slot just like i predicted

[charred oyster]

They wont - the only other options are passives, which is something the devs will not do

[steady scarab]

the devs can doo whatever they decide to do and if they change thier minds thats always possible depending on feedback

[charred oyster]

Yes it is possible, but devs value design balance

[hushed hedge]

If not Aspects, Aura Slot, or Pocket Slot. Where would you recommend they go?

[proud yoke]

Best option imo, if resources are that bad of a problem, they could just increase the resources gained and such for powders

[north trellis]

Aura slot on a tradable charge system

[distant jungle]

Tbh I do like the idea of some of them ending up as familiars, but you end up with the same "issue" of clashing

[steady scarab]

they could modify whats alreaddy in game or add them as prayers or add a 4th relic spot just some ideas

[hushed hedge]

Aura slot is 100% being removed

[north trellis]

You asked for a recommendation

[charred oyster]

Also lets not add more effects into relic powers until the relic system gets designed better

[hushed hedge]

Yeah I asked "If not Aspects, Aura Slot, or Pocket Slot. Where would you recommend they go?"

[north trellis]

True 😂

[steady scarab]

yea i seen alot of push back on familiers and pocket slot, the issue is that its always clashing with stuff that is better to where nobody will use them if other option is better

[charred oyster]

Bacon just wants their penance aura for thieving

[north trellis]

Auraslot2, because why use what’s already there

[charred oyster]

"its better to put in a spot that has no decision making/tradeoff so we just increase player power for the sake of it"

[steady scarab]

2nd pocket item slot that you can add a ring or whatever hahahathis whole update is powercreep like ive said before

[north trellis]

I would be fine with a refund even if there isn’t much to buy with the loyalty points

[distant jungle]

Clashing is good. Sustain options should compete with damage, giving access to all of them at once is too much imo

[steady scarab]

the whole update is powercreep so who cares

[charred oyster]

I do - lets not add more player power if we dont have to 🙂

[steady scarab]

well your one opnion so nobody cares that you care lol

[distant jungle]

Given that the auras were removed in part because of the 120 increase, I don't think it's fair to say the entire update is powercreep, as they're actively trying to manage it so it's not.
It's natural power progression but that's not the same thing as layering systems to cause a massive boost in power

[north trellis]

Nerf mage/melee/range a bit —directly!

[charred oyster]

Well, I happen to be someone who understands game design and player power balance but go off king

[steady scarab]

so do many players but your entitled to your opnion

[proud yoke]

Best solutions would be for them to be rewards from things that lack utility like mini games, or skills like construction or agility. If not, prayer powders are the next best option

[torpid surge]

idk about that one dawg

[charred oyster]

A penance effect would either need: a high value cost or a high tradeoff, same as vamp

[steady scarab]

anyone see the YT video of the dude that 1 item hard mode Santum? with 1 item on his body and nothing in inventory? all he used was a masterwork sword

[torpid surge]

people are pretty spoiled if theyre still asking for penance. we have prayer potions and prayer renewal, but for some reason we need to ignore those and give the ability to recoup prayer points with no trade off?

[steady scarab]

ill agree with cost not trade off

[charred oyster]

Okay so buff penance powders and keep rate the same then if you want no tradeoff

[north trellis]

Was it the guy who soloed nex with t10 gear and no food/reaver?

[steady scarab]

your disagreeing with people having their own opnions?

[torpid surge]

id be fine with them nerfing penance powders so potions matter more

[steady scarab]

no ill post video if i can find it

[hushed hedge]

I disagree that many people know good game design as show cased here 😂

[proud yoke]

Tbh, unlimited prayer is a very powerful effect, I think the cost of penance powders does well to balance the powerful effect

[torpid surge]

thats usually how it goes lmao

[charred oyster]

Are people aware of how combat encounters will need to be designed if vamp effect becomes a passive with no tradeoff? Imagine them having to design around melee in live game right now. You'll have a vorkath 2.0

[hushed hedge]

Yes, coupled with the tedious collection method ensures that the supply and demand stays balanced.

[feral quail]

I think just keep auras as their own sub category that doesn't overlap aspects, and just add them to the spellbook like abilities and necro incantations

[torpid surge]

auras are going buddy

[charred oyster]

Aspects should just have their own book, not tied into the styles

[north trellis]

It sorta handled the overpowered bolts and then arrows

[feral quail]

I'm aware I'm saying not to make them aspects like animate dead

[proud yoke]

Are they still tied to skills like magic, idk if this be a good solution, other than for them to just be in one spot

[north trellis]

Of course not being at max power or having to maintain it makes people unhappy too

[charred oyster]

I would prefer we nuke all aspects and re-design to make them more meaningful and fun personally - having them tied to specific styles isnt ideal

[torpid surge]

what even are aspects

[charred oyster]

AD, TA, darkness

[steady scarab]

https://youtu.be/BU7Y-RmovMI?si=z_bgxY32AOsRfUCm

[hushed hedge]

Basically just spells that buff you

[distant jungle]

Long term self buffs. Basically it's Auras done in a healthier way lel

[late lava]

A 12 minute buff spell that is mutually exclusive

[north trellis]

It’s like an aura that costs runes

[feral quail]

And yeah they should just make everything be able to last an hour. Let us make high concentrate e overloads that last an hour, enriched penance powder, etc

[torpid surge]

so something like this?
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Imbued_heart

[steady scarab]

found it took awhile to find

[charred oyster]

We dont need these buffs lasting a hour

[proud yoke]

Ig Aspects are supposed to be self buffs, usually given to players via some spell or incantation

[north trellis]

It’s a game, we don’t need anything

[late lava]

Not quite. They give buffs that arent stats.

[distant jungle]

Buffs lasting an hour just feels awkward because then it feels like obligation to actually use your buff.

[charred oyster]

Have you met rs players? We are fiends who want mooooore

[north trellis]

Wants and needs are not the same yet are treated that way

[steady scarab]

just make penance of poweder stronger and add a penance of vamp call it a day

[hushed hedge]

Exactly, I'd prefer to rebuff over casting a very high cost spell and then feeling like I'm wasting half the value.

[distant jungle]

Scrimshaws are kind of the middleground of that style effect

[feral quail]

The idea would be to have multiple options. But having to reapply overload every 6 minutes when some fights are double that at times is just anti qol

[charred oyster]

So my question is: What does vamp do for players that food/defensives cant help with? What does penance do besides completely ignoring prayer?

[steady scarab]

scrimshaw of penance? just a idea

[distant jungle]

Yeah but... overloads already do that. You'd just tack it onto your weapon poison application cycle every 12m

[proud yoke]

I mean thats like saying the aspect lasts 12mins so ur committed to 12mins. What makes aspects not an issue is that you can just re-apply them whenever. The problem with auras was the long 3hr cooldown period. Not so much that they lasted an 1hr. Who cares if they last 1hr if u could just reapply them. The biggest issue was always the long cooldowns and mostly be obtained through loyalty points

[distant jungle]

12 minutes is a tiny time period vs an hour, most bosses you could tick off anywhere between like 3-4 and 10 kills on in that timer, and if you do just one kill you're wasting far less time on the buff overall

[north trellis]

Penance reduces but does not eliminate my use of potions and items to restore prayer points. At zuk at least.

[late lava]

Make things afk. And they need there afk or else they cant play with there 5 jobs and 10 kids.

[steady scarab]

nobody trading darkness or anime dead for vamp or penance

[distant jungle]

I won't be, I'll just be using vamp/penance where I wasn't using darkness before 😄

[steady scarab]

true

[north trellis]

Yeah that’s an issue lol

[proud yoke]

I mean an 1hr is more solid and standard than 12mins. Notably when boss instances only last 1hr. There's been a lot of instances i forget to re-apply darkness or anime is dead

[late lava]

Ill trade darkness for vamp on ranged
Multihit makes vamp very strong

[charred oyster]

I mean Ill use vamp 100% of the time - I dont need darkness

[steady scarab]

see pvm gods wont care but average players will some of you clearly dont work have jobs or have kids most scapers dont got time to learn in depth bosses and need easier ways to kill stuff

[north trellis]

I just suck lol

[steady scarab]

trust me i got friends that have almost no time to play as it is and dont got time to learn bosses they need all the help they can get

[distant jungle]

Vamp offsets the need for darkness half the time.
I always do like 99% of my pvm atm with penance active just because I'm lazy and can't be bothered to deal with prayer. Is it actually going to affect me to have to sip prayer once or twice a fight? No, not really.

[charred oyster]

I work and have taken the time to get better. But I also understand game design and want them to fix core gameplay issues that make the game better/easier for players instead of adding meaningless powercreep

[steady scarab]

sitting in your moms basement dont count ells lol

[feral quail]

But also when the limiting factor is runes and potion ingredients why not just let stuff last an hour? Just make the hour long version take 10x/5x the amount of ingredients and last through death

[charred oyster]

I wish I could but she dead 🥲

[nova jasper]

im a normal player lol and i think this change is great

[north trellis]

F. Inheritance though?

[steady scarab]

im sure ells

[distant jungle]

Runes are very much not going to be a limiting factor on aspects, they're cheap as hell to apply. And realistically you'll probably be going back to Wars more frequently than every 12m for the purposes of refreshing buffs and the like. At worst it's an extra like 2-3 clicks to apply the buff every couple of kills

[nova jasper]

yeah

[proud yoke]

Tbh, if anything, maybe make aspects last 15mins, and u could just stack them by re-applying them to make them last 1hr max. Still don't like them as aspects for they compete with other aspects when that wasn't an issue before

[charred oyster]

You prob do too - so proud of you 🙂

[feral quail]

They're the limiting factor when they're replacing the old limiting factor of a 3 hour cd

[steady scarab]

true we already got 10 things to click on before a fight why not add more lol

[nova jasper]

i never had any trouble reapplying darkness or animate dead lol its really not an excuse

[charred oyster]

I wish - was hoping she had some phats on her acc

[steady scarab]

whats up with people saying Necro got nerfed is this true? havent used in awhile

[feral quail]

Like seriously, for aspects let me have that shit on for an hour and last through death, you can suck up 5x more runes I'm fine with that, it'd be a huge qol win

[charred oyster]

Or click it 5 times a hour

[distant jungle]

When you're removing the massive CD and replacing it with cheap ass runes that most people probably have an abundance of due to PvM (if not using mage), they're the limiting factor, sure.

[north trellis]

I have some but I think this update has driven them down more lol

[patent needle]

No, Necro just roughly stayed in its lane, every other style just got stronger in comparison to it.

[distant jungle]

Tbh 15m aspect is annoying because it then desyncs from Weapon Poison or Overloads. Stuff working in batches of 6 is a good way to do it given the other timings (Rework them all to last a base 10 when tho smh my head)

[north trellis]

I wish regular potion reboosted every 15 seconds too lol

[proud yoke]

Tbh, they really need to standardize these things. I would even go on as to reduce potions by 1 min to make them make more sense at 5mins or buff them to last 10mins per dose. Like incense sticks last 10mins per stick already too

[north trellis]

It still seems to work ok

[charred oyster]

Whats the difference between 6 mins or 5 mins?

[nova jasper]

idk lol

[north trellis]

20% or so

[charred oyster]

math do be mathing here

[feral quail]

Most of everything is on a timer that is a factor of 6, just make it all 60 mins

[proud yoke]

Everything would be in 5's. Each flask would last 30mins. 2 would last 1hr

[distant jungle]

5m is 2 flasks to fit an hour timer, it aligns with EE/AERS timer etc.
(Half the timer of an incense stick, which I forgot work on a 10 minute time period)

[nova jasper]

actually its 16.16%

[charred oyster]

So you bring 2 flasks or bring 2 flasks for either scenario

[distant jungle]

Bring 2 flasks now and you end up with 2 doses left over which is just annoying

[proud yoke]

my point is to make things make more sense. Rn things last 6mins or 12mins or 10mins, 30mins and such

[nova jasper]

dont most ppl boost incenses to 60 min anyways?

[charred oyster]

I mean what about lanta sticks - I can boost duration higher for pots

[distant jungle]

If you're doing an hour instance yeah, but if you overload to 4 stack it's 10m and each incense stick adds another 10 which is more convenience than just lumping the fullhour duration

[charred oyster]

So are we buffing lanta sticks to make pots run 10 mins?

[feral quail]

Or you just condense x amount of incense sticks into one single new super giga stick item

[distant jungle]

Tbf Lantadyme is a fixed time boost rather than a % boost, so having it add 30s per stack still works fine if you were to shorten to 5m/lengthen to 10m.
Alternatively you rephrase it as a 5/10% increase per stack relative to the size (Instead of the current which is a 16.66% increase to duration)

It's mostly just weird that so many things run in different time periods resulting in it being easy for things to desync. Most things work in 6 minute intervals but some stuff runs outside of that, buffs to extend duration do an even worse job of desyncing it all

[nova jasper]

its just incense thats not 6 right?

[feral quail]

But my idea is basically, 2 elder overloads get concentrated into 1 high concentrate version. You lose 2 doses of total duration but that tradeoff is used to make the overload persist through death.

I can't think how anyone wouldn't like this

[nova jasper]

it alr does lol

[feral quail]

And do similar stuff with the aspects, sticks, etc

You trade off more resources for a longer buff that persists through death

And people that have goldfish attention spans and can't focus for an hour still have their regular stuff

[charred oyster]

So we are designing for players who cant focus on the game for an entire hour?

[feral quail]

No we're designing around improving the qol of having to rebuff every 6 minutes and just let people boss and skill

[charred oyster]

Also you want to be able to put ovls together to do what exactly?

[feral quail]

Make overload last longer

[charred oyster]

So put 2 ovls together to extend it somehow? What about the persist through death part?

[nova jasper]

actually what rebuffing would you do besides ovls aspects and poison

[feral quail]

Not a whole lot else besides sticks, but just make these things all on the same 1 hour timer

[charred oyster]

I don't think we should be designing content to make it easier for players to ignore more of the game longer - 6 mins is just fine for that

[nova jasper]

yeah so whats wrong with rebuffing

[pallid salmon]

Just allow doseage timers stack for potions up to 1 hour like incense stick do i had post of this awhile back

[feral quail]

Because why have random shit on a 6 minute timer, another on a 12 minute timer, and then we come in with the 10 minute timer that you can already extend to 60

Like why not just take a page out of incense sticks and let us stack that together

[pallid salmon]

4hr on perfect plus potion

[charred oyster]

All these things line up though?

6 mins for pots
12 mins for aspects
60 mins for sticks
4 hours for perfect plus

[feral quail]

Yeah all of them lining up is even more of "well why not?"

If they all line up then let us use multiple of them to give the same buff time

[charred oyster]

Why not? We dont need to play into the idea that we should be giving players more incentive to play less of the game?

[patent needle]

I've also said this, it eliminates the annoyance.

[feral quail]

How is making the buff time longer any less of playing the game than just using afk warden to do it for you though

[pallid salmon]

They will aruge this but support cauldrons that do same thing lol cept more problematic due to diffrent types of ovls and potions

[charred oyster]

Becuase what it does is make players engage less - which results in players wanting to see that more - its a never ending cycle

[feral quail]

If you want people to play the game more actively then just do that through fight design and gameplay

[charred oyster]

I agree completely - so lets make content more engaging before we start giving players more reasons to engage less

[feral quail]

Like saying that rebuffing is going to make people engage more is just wrong, it really doesn't do that

[violet nova]

@charred oyster you live in your mom's basement? 🤔

[pallid salmon]

It more a qol thing it hardly matters thou

[charred oyster]

Apparently - a gentlemen named King said I did so I gotta believe it

I agree it is a qol thing, but it also adds to players engaging less - which is exactly the opposite of what we need right now. I think a fix like that has its place, it just isnt right now when they are trying to get players to play - giving players more reasons to not engage isnt it

[proud yoke]

I mean one i get your point but one of the greatest things about rs is being able to afk. I think everything has its place. What makes it even greater is having as many options as possible to afk or play content actively.

[pallid salmon]

@patent needle on a earlier post were you trying to say basically bosses need more of a scaling sytem ?

[charred oyster]

I agree, rs3 is very accessible and always should be - but we are in a very unhealthy place in that regard and that needs to be fixed

[proud yoke]

Each dose of overloads and pots like it should just last 10mins. Each flask lasts u 1hr, there

[pallid salmon]

@charred oyster some reasons people dont engage is cause the constat upkeep 6 mins flys by in game

[violet nova]

Ideally (and I think developers hinted that way), every skill would have several options how to train it... from more relaxed training ways to more active engaging ways. I really hope the developers go that route.

[proud yoke]

I mean what scenerio are u refering to? if it just means having to drink a potion less or applying a buff less, i really don't think that's a very big issue. It's certainly not going to impact active content by much, but it would make afking content that's supposed to be afk anyway better

[pallid salmon]

And if thats case we can go back to boneshield needing to be removed

[late lava]

Bone shield absolutely needs to be necro locked

[pallid salmon]

Not necro blocked removed entirely and give necro shield options

[proud yoke]

nah it should just be removed. Why should necro be the only style allowed to not use a shield? Bone shield has killed shields and defenders.

[feral quail]

I really do have to ask, do you seriously think afkwarden telling you your potions are about to run out is actual player engagement?

[patent needle]

I was essentially talking about the fact that boss progression should be viewed as a scaling progression system, and part of the reason why people are feeling this combat rework so hard is because they keep viewing it from the lens of "this is where combat should be" based on the years of EoC pre refresh.

So, I was saying "if you're going to scale stuff probably scale it around where the boss is expected to be killed"

[charred oyster]

Right now, low effort to afk content is what people prefer because rs3 has become a 2nd monitor game. We have continued to give players more reasons and power that allows them to engage with it. Players want a penance effect passively, which help with engaging with the game less. Players dont find a lot of content that fun, but they want to progress, so they do low effort/afk content.

I am trying to advocate to relax on giving players more qol buffs that make the game easier considering how far in the hole we are. These qol buffs should happen, but I dont agree now is the right time

[late lava]

It definitly has. But as it is now there are only two necromancy shields. Otherwise you need to keep the lantern on or you conjurs get dismissed.
Id say let it have its bone shield and only allow use when using a necro offhand

[pallid salmon]

I agree i always felt like say you go into kril your stats and gear should tier down to say lv 75

[charred oyster]

I dont use external apps to play this game so I cant answer that

[patent needle]

And right now, obviously if the equipment's sitting at 95, we have T100s, scale it around there, as that's the expectation beset (for base pre enrage Amascut scaling). Scaling it around 120s seems off for bosses unless we add bosses that are intended to be made around that power, though the case imo could very well be made that high enrage bosses could fall into that category as they are effectively challenge content atm anyway, so it fills both niches.

[patent needle]

Yeah, I very much agree.

[charred oyster]

tldr: Convenience creep just needs to stop while we take the time to address gameplay issues

[late lava]

Scaling took into account berserker auras wich boosted you to 140 with ovls active. So it still around the same.

[patent needle]

The exceptions to this are stuff that's challenge oriented, or when you reach a milestone that gives you a reason past that content's power tbf.

[feral quail]

Okay but what you want isn't what the devs or the playerbase are envisioning. They changed their thieving nerf purely because they made pickpocketing too much of an active skill. Low effort semi afk methods are part of the game

[torn solstice]

Bet lodestones are next.

[late lava]

The rework however did change power scaling with ability stats and such

[proud yoke]

I would argue that the problem is that a lot of active content just isn't that great. It's repetitive and lacks rewards. For example, fishing frenzy. Terrible content, needs to die and cease to exist. Repetitive, no rewards. Now if we compare that to heists or bgh. Now content is better. Now players play and do that content more. It's content that is engaging, fun, puts people in an actual role of being a hunter, a thief, and both offer great rewards. This is what skills are missing imo, more than anything

the solution lies in making more content like this, not removing afking content

[patent needle]

Yeah, I am very much looking forward to more fundamental gameplay issues being addressed with the upcoming mid and end game refreshes.

[feral quail]

Like there's really no intent to make things less afk and more active besides making sure you can't click 1 pickpocket and walk away for 6 hours

[charred oyster]

I agree - thats what I am pushing for - focus dev time on making active content better before we keep adding more convenience to give players more reasons to engage less

[patent needle]

Yes it did, massively. It made the stat buff afforded by levels go from linear to logarithmic, plus perk changes alongside the combat refresh itself.

[late lava]

Tldr. Less afk, more active.

[hushed hedge]

I agree with you up until your very last words. Sometimes AFK content will need to be nerfed to give active content better reward space. If AFK content is too overtuned with rewards, so much so that it's eating into active gameplay reward space, then it will need to be tweaked to encourage active play.

[charred oyster]

Like I dont understand why people cant understand that adding more convenience/qol updates is the right way to go when we dont even have content thats active and engaging and fun enough to do - so all we are doing is making less input methods more attractive, even if the qol is good

[torn solstice]

Meanwhile I just want to see Jagex revive minigames again :P A core piece of Runescape feels missing without minigames being important in the cycle or at least fun enough to engage in

[pallid salmon]

Less afk get rid of aggro lol

[patent needle]

Active gameplay feels a lot more engaging than it did before, even at an intuitive level, and I think having abilities like runic charge was a great choice to incentivise active gameplay, and to normalise at least some of that baseline habit to creep over into manual gameplay from revo++ gameplay.

[pallid salmon]

Mining back to 1 ore at time

[torpid surge]

do that then add these
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Expert_mining_gloves

[patent needle]

Imagine how different mining would feel if they re-implemented ore node despawning.

The raging and crashing would come back so fast, lmfao.

[feral quail]

A lot of this is just due to rs3 being all about xp grinding for a over a decade. Minigames are dead in large part because the current community is no longer interested in them

[patent needle]

The only time I see minigames being active are people afking Thaler.

[proud yoke]

I mean nerfing something that deserves to be nerfed is fine. I think this really depends on the difference in reward between active content. Obviously if the rewards are very similar, whether xp or gp, this is a big mistake. Imo, and ppl will disagree, high lvl pickpocketing and safes are a bit too much xp wise

[torn solstice]

Step 1: Go to rock.
Step 2: Other guy wants your rock.
Step 3: Rock has a 15m respawn timer. Place pick in other guys brain.
Step 4: Attempt to mine rock.
Step 5: Worldhopper has logged in. Your rock is gone.
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Become a supervillain and invent the orebox and honed perks. And make rocks infinite.

[feral quail]

High level pickpocket being afk wasn't really the problem people had, it's that it was also the best xp and gp per hour by far at the same time

[pallid salmon]

@torn solstice they could make so both can mine same rock without interfereing but still only one ore till it reloads for you

[proud yoke]

Yeah, i think most would agree the xp nerfs would be okay, but it being less afk, hell noooo

[torn solstice]

Aye they have that tech now. But do I really want to do that system over the new one? I think Ive had my fill :P

[pallid salmon]

@torn solstice i was just pointing out what they asking for was basically going back to way things already were

[charred oyster]

It also does beg the question how long we think afk methods should be afk - thats something a lot the community will vary in regard to opinions

[hushed hedge]

I really liked the little triangle infographic Jagex made for the thieving changes showing the three points as AFK-Loot-XP

That's such a good way to look at it from a game design stand point. Even comparing different skilling styles in the same skill it should make logical sense that the more in the AFK corner it is, the less it should be in the Loot-XP corner.

[torn solstice]

And I was narrating my latent frustration from being an ancient, disgruntled miner in the old days of Runescape. XD

[pallid salmon]

@torn solstice i oddly didnt mind the old mining lol

[charred oyster]

You wanna relive it? I can log into osrs rq (if its still the same, havent play osrs in long time)

[feral quail]

I don't think there's really much of a debate tbh, most people understand that something like afk pickpocket for 6 hours straight was unnecessary, but I think most people would agree to settle around 10 or 15 minutes

[pallid salmon]

@feral quail i agree 10 to 15 min is good afk time

[feral quail]

Like I got 120 thieving in 3 or so days just because I would have the game running on my work computer lmao

That's definitely the kind of overtuned outlier that everyone agrees shouldn't exist

[torn solstice]

No thanks, but I do believe in order for minigames to be relevant again they need to bring it up to parity again. And remove thaler.

[proud yoke]

Thaler has got to go at least the way it currently works

[feral quail]

They would need to be majorly updated for modern rs but also I think you'd really have to force people to play them for the rewards. Like minigames would have to give you insta growth potions or the stuff like that which has very limited ways to obtain

[torn solstice]

I mean with so many things being removed, why isnt there options to stick cosmetics in little minigame corners? I bet those God robes that cost Loyalty points might look enticing at FoG. And pest control might offer its retro versions for points. I know I spent keepsake keys just for the Jessika and Korasi, there is a market!

[proud yoke]

That's not a bad idea imo!

[feral quail]

I think modern rs3 players need to be gaining something tangible to ever be convinced to play a minigame

[torn solstice]

What? Like Bitcoin? :P Id like to see Bitcoin be explained in the world of Gielnor :P

[hushed hedge]

At the very least minigames should give comparable XP to other active training methods, that's in addition to their typical rewards. Nothing feels worse than going to do a minigame to get an XP boosting outfit, but the minigame itself gives absolutely god awful XP... you're now forced to weigh "It takes 20 hours to get this outfit, so it's probably faster to just do traditional skilling for those 20 hours instead of investing to get this outfit"

[patent needle]

Same, I also have the Jessika and Korasi keepsaked.

[hushed hedge]

Tempoross and GOTR are both very excellent standards for minigames that do not feel bad to do and offer both decent XP and worthwhile rewards.

[feral quail]

Minigames probably shouldn't be skilling methods, they should be limited to supplemental to skilling at the most. Just give minigames something that is unique to them or has limited ways to obtain

[torn solstice]

The problem is worldsuffice, is that some of these minigames people love have great rewards, and are still empty. Fog is hardly ever used, and it has the fletch suit, which is getting a retier. If good rewards arent good enough, then something else needs to be done, or there needs to be a more major redraw of the field

[hushed hedge]

This is what leads to them being dead content though... if there's no reward for the minigame past the one time unlock then it's dead the second the player base gets that unlock.

[feral quail]

You just make them a consumable instead of a one time unlock

[torn solstice]

I mean, consumable items thatre helpful may help long term longevity... I wish they had a thread on this already. Jag could get some great ideas for the future. Im not even sure how often they look at suggestions.

[pallid salmon]

Tradeable matts for unlocks maybe

[hushed hedge]

I see what you mean... but OSRS has many very active minigames that have one time unlocks AND decent XP which keep the minigame alive well past the player unlocking the rewards.

[torn solstice]

Hell, Id play Pest Control just for the fun of it. That game is my jam. But it very clearly needs a rework, veteran landers either steamroll or blow up pretty fast. In my day it was the novice lander that was frequented because people were scared of the bugs :P

[feral quail]

Yeah pest control is prime for modernization

[hushed hedge]

Imagine if Pest Control was a viable prayer training method, you'd have loads of players there hahaha

[feral quail]

Also an underrated thing you could do is just nuke all lamps and stars and make bxp come from minigames if you really wanted it to be simple(BA)

[north trellis]

Dung?

[torn solstice]

.... I mean, it would be engaging, it already has that in pc to an archaic extent

[feral quail]

For dung they should seriously just make elite dungeons the main method and make like 4 more of them for mid and low level

[stark pasture]

Just wanted to send positive vibes to the mods and devs - overall bravo, I think they took into account a lot of concerns from a variety of the player base. Overall I think the aura removal is worked into the game is fitting (built in skill, aspects of sustain, and utilizing existing systems like Sydekix shop, Runespan points and Pilfer points). A few other combat ones are out, but the additional balance change for necro death skulls, the 120 update, and the aspects of sustain cover the loss pretty well without impacting our other slots. Bonus in keeping Might of Het, this feels like we get to keep our power WITH balance - so thanks!

[north trellis]

I think I mainly hate clicking on doors

[feral quail]

And make the xp rates actually happen ofc

But elite dungeons feel like what the skill should be about, even heists feel like what dung should be, just if they actually gave xp

[rotund maple]

I'd rather see soul runes not be so wonky and annoying to craft

[distant jungle]

Elite dungeons are PvM, they've nothing to do with DG outside of having "Dungeon" in their name.

[fierce belfry]

They give dunegeoneering exp

[distant jungle]

So do lamps -shrug-
They've got nothing to do with the original intent of DG and imo should never have had DG exp/token drops associated with them as a bandaid fix for DG being abandoned and bad 🤷‍♂️
Alternate forms of DG would be good, but EDs ain't it

[rotund maple]

Maybe if it was more like moons where you get all your PVM supplies to go through

[torn solstice]

hey Daemonheim isnt abandoned and dead to me. I love that place enormously, and I always enjoy introducing people to the magic of it. I say it could use a refresh.

[north trellis]

DG should not have been a skill but a minigame. With tradable rewards.

[distant jungle]

I said bad not dead

tbh I think one of the bad things about it is that all the leveling methods are combat focused. despite it not being inherently a combat skill

[north trellis]

I don’t like the skilling aspects of it, and it would have been nice to bring in our own supplies

[late lava]

It absolutely needs an overhaul

[kind citrus]

wait can you stack aspects of sustain and aspects of evasion

[north trellis]

No

[distant jungle]

Aspect is aspect

[kind citrus]

ah ye i figured

[oblique star]

For Aegis I'd personally love to.. maybe not keep it, but at least added some kinda new DR to replace it; not an aspect (since darkness already exists), but would love to have that little extra DR for those of us who suck at bossing

[nova jasper]

there alr is, its called practicing

[late lava]

Been seeing alot of people wanting them to make tank gear and shields better.

[patent needle]

My personal recommendation would be to use defensives more, especially resonance if you know you can't block a hit, rely on devotion more and when you can try to upgrade your nexus to the zemo one.

[oblique star]

That excuse could be used for everything =p I vote we remove all buffs not from armor/weapons; needing anything else is a skill issue ;)

[oblique star]

those already exist; it doesn't account for this being removed - not saying the advice is bad, but it's not an answer to a source of DR being removed from the game

[patent needle]

I'm not against aegis, or aegis like buffs being incorporated into the game I was giving you advice to improve your survivability on the assumption you were struggling with content you weren't struggling on prior to the removal of aegis—and so I gave actionable advice, rather than my philosophical stance on the addition or removal of it.

[oblique star]

I was making a "philosophical stance" for the record; the "for those of us who suck at bossing" was somewhat true for sure, but was more meant to be tongue in cheek (I shoulda included an emoji, my bad)

[tepid plank]

If you're referring to my statement, that's not what I said. I said for those who do have the aura already, should get the unlock for free either outright, or awarded the pilfer points to unlock it.

[junior lintel]

Thinking about it, I would like the RC reward to move out of RuneSpan and place it in Great Orb Project. RuneSpan is already oversaturated with rewards and the only gameplay with the exception of runespheres (which is a daily that is being changed) is just afk content for several hundred hours to get the rewards. I would rather tweak the exp ratios for Great Orb Project and make it a somewhat decent rc method but add the aura effects as something to buy there. You can run solo to larger team groups (for more xp) but you would still get enough points to slowly unlock the effects over time.

I think the idea of Aegis as an aspect would be interesting if we got more of a tank role design but I dont really see that as viable until they redesign defensives in the future. But currently I think it can be deleted for now until there is some solid design concept for how to approach it.

[copper harbor]

yeah for specific bosses like amby or rasial it would help. its like 10% dr, which is why they prob didnt make a aspect or anothr buff for it when we have those other aspects

[tiny zephyr]

Overall enjoying what I'm reading in this update. My only request is to keep a reward for collecting pantheon fragments in Shifting Tombs. e.g. Move from Desert Pantheon: make Menaphos reputation gain increase permanent, and move lifepoints boost to the Menaphos bonfire. I like collecting the pantheon fragments and it gives a nice reason to play Shifting Tombs, which is a cool minigame!

[deep vine]

Random suggestion not sure if its been mentioned here yet. For certain combat auras getting removed, would Jagex be interested in the idea of reintroducing them at a later stage into a Divination 110 (or 120) update should divination uplift be on the horizon in 2027 for example? Maybe something similar to the Menaphos demigod boons, but more oriented to divination and anima mundi lore, such as manifesting auras such as berserk (variants - suggesting this becomes a singular boon that benefits all combat styles)/equilibrium/mahj albeit at a reduced boost - per balancing considerations - as Anima Mundi passive boons (you can choose whether this content is accessible from a lower level to keep the skill balanced overall in terms of benefits gained, or more of a late skill content as a 'reap the rewards of training this skill past 99'), the boons can be named after the lesser Gods, Saradomin (mahj effect) - Boon of Strength , Zammorak (berserk effect) - Boon of Chaos, Guthix (Equilibrium effect) - Boon of Balance, and so on..

^ only suggesting this, in case of power creep necessity, and this way it falls in line with the core concepts jagex is implementing to Runescape content, in that they tie in with the world's lore, and aren't random

[rugged citrus]

the balance considerations have already been made, in that they're not coming back period, zerk auras have already been replaced

[deep vine]

would they consider it coming back full stop or question mark?

[rugged citrus]

no, they've already been replaced

[deep vine]

it doesnt have to be those specific auras but hey its a suggesting, hope they consider it exclamation mark 😄 but frfr divination needs some more depth and love, its now just a cog for the invention progress, feels like its lacking something for itself

[violet nova]

(Trauma from my early RS years triggered)

When I see it listed like that, no wonder I never trained mining as a skill (except what I needed for quests) prior to the rework.

[copper harbor]

Yeah, mining rune back in the day would of been a nightmare. I remember as a kid I was like "one day I wanna get to the level to mine rune." But mining it when i got the level was so damn bad.

[pallid locust]

Does anyone know if a release date for aura updates has been posted?

[rugged citrus]

likely april

[solar crystal]

Just jumping in to compliment Jagex Devs on amazing job done on Aura rework so far. In my opinion, all the issues have been adressed, and it could launch tomorrow as far as I am concerned!
Can't wait to see it in action!

[lyric steeple]

I really don't like the idea of making combat auras into aspects. No one would have any use for Vampyrism with Darkness being obviously better.

[digital rover]

Vamp for slayer/afk bossing, darkness for active bossing

[atomic cipher]

they could change how aspects work like darkness and animate would t2 and vamp and penance would be t1 so you could have vamp up aswell as darkness

[late lava]

They won't do that

[loud imp]

I would like to petition to make the holy wrench work with the proposed sunspear effect

[rugged citrus]

They won't do that lol

[hybrid mica]

it's meant to be mid level, and depending on what you're fighting and your damage distribution, it can literally be better than Darkness or AD (the latter is harder)

[jolly stream]

Its crazy these people are still arguing to have the new aura spots be free.

[hybrid mica]

someone asked for built in vamp and penance into HP and prayer levels as a standard feature

[jolly stream]

Ofc they did lol. Guess we should at that rate, just turn on godmode and perma 10x exp rate.

[jolly phoenix]

wait is there nothing to spend loyalty points on and they're just deleting them? i have 2 mil 😭 i kept membership through my years long break so i could buy cool stuff with it when i came back
wait i found the store on the website. so i should spend all of the points before they're deleted?
ok i bought basically everything, hopefully nothing happens that makes me regret it 😅

[formal scroll]

At this point, my opinion is that they did what they needed with the combat ones, leave the rest of them as they are, this idea of making them aspects and having to compete for which one is active at a time is nonsense
But more so, penance specifically, i see no real justification that it needs to be an aspect that has to compete with something like darkness or animate dead

Vampirism i can see an arguement for, but still think the fact it needs to compete with the buff slot is stupid, but i can see no justification for doing it to penance

[mild crown]

I like the idea of aspects for longer pvm occassions.
You can change them on the fly with just a click of a cast.
Downtime during bosses could be used to utilize vamp, active moments with penance, and if you are good on both, the other.

It's not like before, where you are stuck with a single buff for an hour.
Yes, it's 12 minutes, but you could as well switch it after 5 seconds adjusted to your needs during the fight.
Especially useful during ED runs where you want to use penance during the exploration parts and switch to Anomaly during the boss fight part (for magic at least).

[formal scroll]

Honestly I was kinda onboard with them BEING an aspect initially, but after learning how they plan on DOING the aspects, I don't like them removing the ability to use them together WITH the existing aspects

If these aspects of sustain could be used along SIDE evasion ones like darkness or animate dead (and honestly melee and range should get their own style specific ones) it would be one thing, but the fact they become COMPETING aspects where now your forced to choose between them doesn't sit well with me

[distant jungle]

They're competing because they're doing the same job. You're either healing from your damage (and living longer) or reducing damage taken (and living longer).
Same premise as why you can't use SS alongside Deflect

[mild crown]

Does add some thought to combat, making it more expressive instead of just a cast and forget kinda thing, but keeping that a possibility still

[formal scroll]

Explain how penance is doing the same job as darkness?

I personally don't care about vampirism, I can see why there's an argument there, but not for penance, as I said before

[distant jungle]

Penance you've got the alternate option of layering with penance powder. Or just using prayer potions. That one's far less overall impact having it vs not having it tbh

[mild crown]

Would penance aspect and powder stack, I wonder. LOADS of prayer restore would be fun (but unnecessary)

[formal scroll]

Penance powder requires gold roses, which aren't exactly easy to farm

[distant jungle]

Sure, so there's a cost associated with layering two more powerful effects rather than just having one of them

[formal scroll]

I'm just gonna agree to disagree, like I said, I can see an argument being made for vampirism, but not penance

There is no reason it should suddenly be taken away and then be made into a forced choice between it and other aspects that aren't even in the same category

[mild crown]

Then again, it's no different from what it was before: where you had to choose between vamp and penance aura, too.
And except for magic, it's a boon to ranged/melee/necro

[formal scroll]

And the overpowered argument is nonsense because it's quite literally been like this since those spells were Introduced, so this is nothing more then a nerf is the name of rebalance if they cannot be used alongside other categories of aspects

[distant jungle]

It's been that way before isn't really a good argument for why it should be that way now tbh. They're taking advantage of adjusting this into a way that fits more into the game than auras are doing a slight rebalance at the same time.

[rugged citrus]

the argument is that penance is too powerful to be used alongside everything else, why would jagex destroy the prayer restoration economy?

[formal scroll]

There is no reason aspects of sustain as they are calling them should compete with aspects of evasion, simple as that

[formal scroll]

So penance as an aura destroyed the prayer restoration community? Or aura refreshes?

[rugged citrus]

penance as an aura had a drawback, penance as an aspect you can have on 100% of the time without competing with other aspects has no drawback

[formal scroll]

And if that's your argument, then make it into a potion, and require prayer pots to make it

[formal scroll]

Have you seen their rune cost? There very much IS a drawback, what do you mean?

[mild crown]

Well, kinda.
Big difference was that not everyone had the aura, and it wasn't applicable 24/7 unlike the aspect.
Prayer restore will take a nose dive with this aspect already anyhow, due to the broader use by players

[formal scroll]

And hell, In that regard, make the spell use some form of prayer potion as a medium or something

[distant jungle]

Their rune costs are laughably low, that's not a drawback

[formal scroll]

It's not like we don't have other things in the game that have arbitrary nonsense costs, hell look at the furnace core and it's nonsensical incense stick cost

So make the spell cost a potion on top of runes, and then let it be used alongside the other aspects

Or again, just turn it into a potion and call it a penance potion , making it cost some variety of prayer pot to make

[distant jungle]

If you were to do that it would have to be weaker than the effect penance powder gives tbh.

[formal scroll]

Honestly that's fine

Have it be 50% and combine with the powder it'll be 100

[distant jungle]

I do like the idea of 'traditional' DnD spells using spell focus and resources and the like... But at the same time in reality it just becomes awkward for longer sessions and harder o balance because you have to try and guage how much prayer you're getting and if it outweighs the cost of a potion in general

[formal scroll]

I mean at the highest tier the blessed flask exists to be fair, so prayer basically becomes a none issue really

[rugged citrus]

that is not a drawback lmfao, it's 113k per hour worth of runes

[formal scroll]

I mean I'm also looking at this from an irons perspective to be fair so maybe I'm a little biased

[mild crown]

You just want to save on prayer potions grind as an iron 🫣 (just a joke tbh)

[distant jungle]

Tbh even from an iron perspective the amount of runes the auras take are incredibly low compared to what you could either buy from a shop, get from natural PvM, or craft a bit of yourself

[formal scroll]

Yea I get that, but I'm saying that there is still a cost involved, and part of that cost is soul runes, which you can't craft until 90 rc

And most drop sources for them usually aren't exactly mid game like the spell is implied to be

[rugged citrus]

that isn't a drawback, that's just basic cost, and the mismatch of tier isn't related to drawback either

[formal scroll]

I mean I beg to differ but whatever at this point, I don't agree with it being a competing aspect, simple as that

[rugged citrus]

What you say is true though, for ironmen specifically at the point of unlocking the spell you'll have to farm spiritual mages at god wars dungeon to get a good soul rune rate and that might be an ask, not a huge ask but an ask

[distant jungle]

Tbf you don't need a "good" rate for how few it uses up
And Mage Guild and Lunar Isle both sell 100 Souls a day looking at it 👀

[rugged citrus]

dailyscape overhaul is also in 9 days, which will change the daily cap of shops into a weekly cap

[distant jungle]

Yeah but even without that tbf, you've got just over an hour of penance a day (or 3 hours of vamp) just from buying one of those shops

[pallid salmon]

@formal scroll your potion could be made by useing penance powders and giving a 75 to 80% rather than 50% and no stack (just a thought)

[quartz geode]

Just make the anti-poison totem equipable in our toolbelt.

[distant jungle]

New level of powercreep, just becoming entirely poison immune

[quartz geode]

I mean the whole point of gaming is to have fun and feel strong why not give players who have earned the totem a passive buff. If powercreep is a concern then lower the percentage but still offer it as a bonus to antipoison

[distant jungle]

and it invalidates a whole skew of items/bonuses intended to mitigate poison damage

[loud imp]

Then they'll just add superpoison if they did that to bypass it

[true ridge]

If I didnt miss any items, there are 179 cosmetics in the loyalty shop. If we would get refunds of the auras I could buy everything.

But since we're not getting those, I would have to wait a minimum of 13 and a half YEARS for all of them to cycle through? That's double my tenure. Wth.

[lucid pond]

That's a lot more time than I thought. Worst case I thought it was 5yrs. The free cosmetics rate needs to be 2 or 3 yrs max. 13.5yrs is too long and I say this as someone well past 20yrs. I didn't realize the loyalty store had so much in it. I just bought auras asap

[formal scroll]

This is worse then just using penance powder though, the powder is already an absolute nuisance to get, making THAT into a potion ingredient would just be hell

[pallid salmon]

True

@formal scroll guess the fix would be make powder ingredients easier to gather and obtain

[true ridge]

for me it would be a minimum of 13.5 years, assuming they would cycle them all and only the ones i don't have yet. for those who have nothing, it would be 179 months, or nearly 15 years. It's absolutely ridiculous and I'm guessing the team underestimated how many loyalty point items there are.

I made a list on my wiki page with those that I found and the prices

Edit: there were a few that slipped through from the rc store. The current total is 155, which means it takes "only" about 13 years to cycle through them all.

[fading sierra]

Would it be bad to turn the Mahjarrat aura unlock slot into a permanent 5% damage boost against the player's current Soul Reaper boss?

[jovial niche]

Yes

[distant jungle]

Tbh with the fact you can infinitely pick reapers soon™, yes.
In the past when it was a one and done (ignoring resets) I wouldn't have minded having a little boost to it tbh

[lean pecan]

Some of the ones in your list are wrong.

Almost the entire teleport section and a few of the animation ones are things that are actually only priced in runecoins, but listed as loyalty points in your list.

[buoyant dome]

were there any discussion regarding inspiration aura?

[rugged citrus]

magic melee and ranged have way better adrenaline generation after the combat update, and necro got a few tweaks like basic attacks being eligible for fury of the small and impatient

[buoyant dome]

irony is inspiration aura was mostly used for afk necro farms and proc with soul strike & blood siphon...

[true ridge]

Hm, those didn't pass through the automated filter correctly. I'll edit it later today, so I guess we're in luck and get them 2 years earlier. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[pseudo hemlock]

Aegis

Aegis was good for learning harder bosses, as you could tank through failures while still getting practice in for for the fight mechanics. I'm a bit sad to see that Jagex completely glossed over it.

Vyrelord auras

Making vyrelords even more OP and easy is certainly a choice in an "integrity" update. They give insane rewards, insane xp (almost 1½m/h for all skills put together), and requires virtually no interaction with the game:

• 350k/h prayer xp
• 250k/h firemaking xp
• 100k/h farming xp (seedicide)
• over ½m/h combat xp
• good invention xp
• good agility xp until removal of silverhawk boots
• charms for summoning
• somewhere in the ballpark of 7m/h gp (assuming legendary pet, coin collector, and spring cleaner)
• it's 15min afkable (logout timer is the only obstacle)
• no potions required
• no food required
• the only upkeep required was to remember to renew the auras once an hour, which one will no longer have to remember
• every 3 hours one would potentially need to disable turmoil/anguish/torment and potentially switch to a slightly more tank focused ability bar because penance aura was not enough to maintain it together with soul split, but with this update that won't be a concern either!
  So essentially one can sit at vyrelords afking and not even looking at the game and get 10 skills out of the way without actually playing the game, while making good money.

[magic tangle]

mann aegis was how i learned rasial no bs

but i think they should make the auras into passives frfr like the daemonheim scrolls.. i know they wont do it. Moving the penance into the vampyre essence was a good idea. i’ll personally still use the powder, but please don’t make a relic out of it everyone only uses 4 of the combat related relics

[distant jungle]

Vyres aren't being made easier so much as they're made more accessible and not reliant on cycling 4 different auras

[worldly flicker]

I think I said it elsewhere but I think vyres should have their alchs decimated and morchella seeds removed from their drop table

[distant jungle]

Tbh idea I'd floated previously was the same style of thing that they're going for, but it's charge based. So you get say a minute of the buff per cremated Vyre, so you do have to periodically go back and cremate more rather than it just being a full on passive the whole time

[fading sierra]

Jagex should integrate Aegis into the Defence skill with the level 120 update. Perhaps 1% damage reduction every 10 or 15 levels?

[cedar token]

• Any news on a date for removal other then April?
• If we have the auras unlocked already do we automatically get it unlocked via its new method such as the Runespan aura buff

[late lava]

No you do not. Auras where not earned so there is no reason to auto unlock them.

[lunar portal]

One suggestion for aegis- lots of people have been saying that they use it when learning bosses, so why not bake it into practice mode on bosses? Be able to set any boss to do: 100%, 70%, 50%, 25%, 10% damage so anyone can practice any part of the fight so they know what to do after getting past a hard-hitting early bit rather than panicking, forgetting how to press buttons, and dying (I do this)

I haven't thought it through very much, not sure if it's a good idea or if aegis deserves to be more than a 'help learn boss' effect, but it's a thought anyways and I really liked the reduced damage from story-mode ED's and have wanted other fights to do it even if it's also for no loot since the fights themselves are fun y'know?

[marsh leaf]

Damage reduction on practice mode (like elite dungeons) would actually be pretty useful, because currently isn't it just safe deaths in exchange for no loot?

[distant jungle]

yeah practice mode is currently awful

but I don't think that would solve the issue because, yes, you can then do/see mechanics, but it's not a proper representation of the fight, and swapping off practice mode could still result in you getting killed

[pallid salmon]

That or free instance and free death cost until person gets their first kill from that boss

[distant jungle]

Tbh I love the osrs style for that, you get a certain amounts of KC free or reduced cost. Downside is you're still using up resources, which is kind of the downside of practice mode atm to a a degree

[rugged citrus]

free instances will be universal at some point i forgot what that was attached to

i think dailyscape overhaul because of reaper shop?

[distant jungle]

Part of the premier changes

[rugged citrus]

blog just says "later this year" so it could be either a random patch, part of the mid-game rebalance (as this effects mid-game the most), or that vaguely named sweep up update

[distant jungle]

I think end of March? Was when premier changes come into play

[rugged citrus]

That's for premier changes, the instances thing specifically was said to be later this year

[distant jungle]

Thought that was happening at the same time, but could be wrong

[tribal silo]

Please dont miss this, resourceful aura is my main aura for mining.

[tribal silo]

Meanwhile one could be getting 3m combat xp/hr at armoured phantoms and no gp/hr. Or getting 10-15m gp/hr. And 1.5mxp in combat/hr. At abyssal creatures in the wildy, demons/savages/hounds/lords. Both phantoms and abyssals are completely afk, phantoms you need to sip a prayer pot every 10 min. Or ritual shard, abyssals same thing unless you have ectoplasmator and demon horn necklace.
Vyres are not op in the current game. Aside from being afk. And lower requirements i.e. only need sunspear and t70 armour. Pretty decent for irons i guess, but still inefficient. Fun to do none the less. Should be some achievement for vyrewatch slaying. I hope they come out with worthwhile vampires in havenhyte.

Aegis aura was a noob trap for loyalty points. If defence goes up to 120 you will have aegis aura all the time anyhow.

[jolly stream]

Is there that much of a problem with deathcosts atm anyways? In t90 its still like.. 200k? Like, sure, someone might feel it if they die a bunch, but you'd have to be going on 50+ death streaks for it to even matter.

Its so easy to make magnitudes more money than that. Some afk moneymakers are over 10mil an hour, without risk

[distant jungle]

Sure but just knowing there's a cost if you fail is enough to disincentize people from trying

[jolly stream]

Even if its pennies? Like, youre right, but its so silly. I know there are people that still refuse to use degradables because it has a cost associated. But im not sure people like that matter a whole lot, it cant be that many.

Can only do so much. Remove the cost and they'll still complain that they have to use, and lose supplies.

[nova jasper]

rn my necro death costs are 500k but thats with t95, scantum dw, rod, and lotd
if i just dont bring scantum rod and lotd, its prolly like 250k

compared to my money, yeah thats absolutely nothing lol

[jolly stream]

Yeah, if its that at its absolute worst.. like, it was nuked to almost nothing a while back and capped out. Im sure you make a few times that for getting a kill

[rugged citrus]

a lot of people that are not very good at the game have a lot of money and have better-than-t90 gear, so their death costs are comparitively higher

with magic masterwork, roa, an eof, and a rasial inventory preset I'm at 400k reclaim cost, if you suck at the game that's gonna hurt

[jolly stream]

But they have a lot of money. Not sure what the problem is

[rugged citrus]

they have a lot of money, they don't make a lot of money

[ornate spindle]

Death cost isn't much more than 100k I don't think with tier 90 ish gear?

Which you can make up with stuff that doesn't involve bossing at all pretty easily

[jolly stream]

Cant get a lot without making it, unless p2w. But at that point, just buy more, w/e

[rugged citrus]

you can afk for 6 months and get a decent cash stack, try to boss, die a million times, cash stack halved, do you want to afk for 3 months before you try again?

and that's just talking numbers, there's obviously more at play

[jolly stream]

-shrugs- if something is fun enough that you're alright dying a hundred times without bothering to learn (because lets be real, you can almost revo anything with BiS without adding difficulty), i dont see the problem. If they arnt enjoying that, theres the problem. or try learning something.
Its mostly user error, not a flaw in the system.

[rugged citrus]

idk what you mean, they are learning, but losing 400k every death. God forbid they're a bondslave, that would make it much worse

[tribal silo]

okay, wth is scantum?

[tribal wharf]

[[sanctum of rebirth]] is kind of an elite dungeon, but no dungeon to run. Just 3 bosses to kill b2b2b

[sand geyser]

Wiki links found:
https://runescape.wiki/w/Sanctum_of_Rebirth

[tribal silo]

that is called sor, never heard of scantum
and, how does that involve a death cost again?

[tribal silo]

i'm talking about this message

[tribal wharf]

I think they're saying if they bring more/different gear (sanctum weapon drops), it increases their death cost.

[tribal silo]

okay, i'm like looking this up. he's saying sanctum dual wield i think
t95 wand orb, roar, t95's, soulfire, all words that will make sense

[worldly goblet]

did they ever think of making a farming skilling tool for a way to put the greenfingers aura in the game in a new way?

also for the hunter skill also tracker could be put on a skilling tool but with the way the yaktwee stick is the main hand already i dont know

[torn solstice]

Yes, theyre going to be buyable as a perma boost at Crux Eqal for favor.

[supple edge]

Making unilateral changes again and then pretending that we get a say in it is getting real old real fast. Players should have been given the opportunity to vote on whether we wanted auras to be removed. I for one am sick and tired of this strategy of releasing content and letting players play and interact with that content for YEARS and then suddenly one day decide that content then needs to be removed. Second issue I have is this arbitrary cutoff of 3 months for the refund of reaper points and the brush off of the valid issue many players made regarding losing loyalty points with no substitute. Many players bought auras or accumulated loyalty points with the understanding these were permanent unlocks, not something that would be unilaterally removed later on.

[lunar portal]

Even if my death costs are 'only' 100k, I'm also eating 100k in fish, drinking 100k in potions, using maybe 100k in charge packs, idk what the good familiars are but maybe 50k for that (or +100k more fish if using a yak). It really does add up fast. I don't know how much money I make per hour doing safer things (have never really measured it), but if I'm spending maybe 2m an hour attempting with a tiny miniscule chance of getting any loot (if I'm going up against a new boss, I'm VERY unlikely to get a kill in the first few hours) it really does hurt. That's why I tend to save trying new bosses for free death weekends.
The last big boss I bet was Telos which probably took me 10-15 deaths, but have since tried Raksha, Zamorak*, Crassian Leviathan*, Nex**, and they've all killed me a good number of times with no wins on my end (* I did get some loot from the monsters before the bosses which was nice), **solo tries, I have beaten her in a group)

I'd honestly propose practice mode remove any kind of degrading effects (charge drain, equipment breaking, ...), and even better if food or potions could be supplied too but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

[radiant crescent]

We did through the feedback surveys that have been going on for a year or so. That tallied up to the mass majority of players - those who left included - wanting the removal of pay to level or mtx style items that have caused rs3 to bleed players to where we are now well bellow osrs counts.

[true gale]

People that already have the Aura(s) unlocked. The ones that are moving to be unlockable content. Will we be grandfather'd owners of this unlocked content, or will we be required to unlock it again? Asking as a 24 year continuous member, but so many of the upgrades I've come to enjoy are leaving. Sad.

You said in the News Post, that the Aura slot doesn't fit in the game because there is no lore for it. OK, create some lore for it. It doesn't fit in the game, because it doesn't have a direct tie-in, you said. Considering the use of "magic" in the game, that tie-in you are looking for, is magic. You know the kind of magic I'm referring to. Like Area-Loot, where we see something in the distance, we'd like. We just click it, in a magical window, and viola, it is in our inventory. The magic of outfit changes. We have plate armour in our inventory, but we are currently wearing Mage armour. In an instant click, suddently our robe is off, and a Plate Body is being worn. No time duration, just a magical click and we swap outfits (have you ever, in RL, tried to put on a set of Plate Armour (like at a Renaissance Festival) - tell me, without magic, how quickly you put it on - between attacks from your foe).

[supple edge]

Auras and the survey on MTX are not the same thing

[true gale]

Jagex is prone to giving us "permanent" things, and taking them away. Most recently with the VIP changes, they mentioned that if we pay for the VIP (or whatever they now call it), we'd get 100 permanent extra bank slots. As someone that used to have VIP members, yes, I did get 100 bank slots, but the day that I stopped VIP, they took away those "permanent" bank slots. I believe the issue is English. England's English must have a different definition of "permanent" than American English, or of that of the English that is commonly used around the world as a second language.

[worldly flicker]

afaik it's a fairly new change that they're permanent slots - when did your prem expire?

[supple edge]

I know far too well Jagex's historic problem with this. I have actively raised this issue over and over, unfortunately many players who haven't been with the game for as long don't realise how serious this issue is. Most players who have been playing before OSRS was released have either quit the game or moved onto other things so the collective recognition and voice on this is tiny. This issue just thoroughly degrades the player experience, imagine learning to adapt your playstyle to a huge change forced upon you, only for things to change again after a few years. If it were a progressive well thought out change that didn't have a disconnect period and didn't leave certain player bases out in the cold then it wouldn't have been as bad, but that isn't the way things are done unfortunately.

[true gale]

After Auras are gone (redistributed) I can see that Prayers will need to be removed. You know, one moment we have Protect From Melee (or equivalent). What we are essentially "praying" is: Please don't hit me with your sword attack. Then we prayer swap, and pray: Please don't hit me with your magic attack. This "magical" (Prayer magic) reduction of damage is no different than an aura, where we are "praying", please give my hatchet an increase in it's ability to cut wood.

[true gale]

They called them permanent bank slots, from my first VIP forage, with the 2nd issue of the Desert Pantheon Aura, the one that the sixth thing it did, was no longer included. I remember that, and took issue with it, via the Forums (back in the day), of the give and take.

[worldly flicker]

ok - I've didn't pay close attention to the wording of early prem offers so I'll take your word for it

[supple edge]

I think there is a fundamental lack of awareness or care in Jagex about the importance of continuity and respecting playstyles that have grown around in-game content that has been around sometimes for decades. Games evolve sure, but in a progressive way that builds on what came before, not taking a wrecking ball to content that has become integral to gameplay for years and years. For example the release of EOC forced players to completely relearn combat. The essential removal of the wilderness and arena destroyed an entire community of players who enjoyed PVP within the game. Jagex announced with the introductionn of 120 skill caps that combat related skills would not be increased to 120, and now that's all changed. Now most recently the removal of auras. Not discounting any arguments on the perceived problems with auras, but entire PVM communities previously relied on auras to provide some level of structure to group PVM sessions, with the removal of auras, suddenly this structure is gone. People can suddenly dip halfway through a session and cause a group to disband with no consequences, great for casual players perhaps, but not so good for players who wanted to do an hour of a boss. Furthermore just the general lack of care regarding players who purchased auras or accumulated loyalty points specifically based on previous understandings that they were a permanant part of the game, is just irresponsible and thoughtless.

[modern gust]

Have you tried doing combat after the changes? The berserker auras are already baked into 120 skills so you're not missing that. Auras like vamp and penance are moved into the game as aspects so everyone has access to it(provided they have the required level). Skilling auras are planned to be baked into the skills itself so what do you mean by lack of awareness since you've acknowledged that auras do have issues yourself

It's ironic that you think this is somehow worse for people who want to do an hour of bossing. I'd say it's the opposite. Now you're free to boss whenever you want and not bound by aura timings.

[worldly flicker]

surely this is just a total non-issue because players who want to do a full hour will continue calling for an hour of xyz boss? all it does is add flexibility for teams to be formed for shorter/longer periods of time than that as well

[rocky forge]

notably most of the top end familiars people actually use last about an hour too

[jovial niche]

tbh i've been enjoying bossing alot more without the auras. DId like a whole day of amascut this weekend with friends just not being bothered by refreshing auras or anything and just taking a few minutes of break whenever instead of being aura locked and wasting timers

[supple edge]

It isn't a non-issue, there is now no way for public pvm teamforming platforms to enforce against players that drop out halfway through a session, so for group bosses such as AOD, people are now reluctant to form teams using these resources. Players who regularly use these resources will know what I'm talking about. You currently also have nothing "baked in" for necro. I also said very clearly "not discounting any arguments on the perceived problems with auras" meaning that I don't intend to rehash all the pros and cons associated with auras. My issue is with the brash way Jagex upends gameplay, with little regard for the different playerbases that are affected. Sure some of you may be pro-aura removal, that doesn't mean that my issue with the way that it was done and Jagex's historic practice of having things in-game for years and then suddenly decides to remove them with little or no consultation isn't a valid concern.

[worldly flicker]

"there is now no way for public pvm teamforming platforms to enforce against players that drop out halfway through a session"

7m + 3, 1 hr

you can adjust to this in by typing four extra characters and produce the exact same situation

[faint glade]

Yes, used to be decent way of farming metamorphic geodes on conc coal

[jolly stream]

I dont see how aura removal has anything to do with public team forming platforms, and their ability to 'enforce' anything.

[lunar portal]

Where do you see things like that? The only time I've seen X + Y is like... dungeoneering with W+3 (warped, need 3 more players), didn't know there was more general pvm codes. Granted, I've only really chilled on my home world, not visiting PvM themed worlds.

[jovial niche]

Almost any and all pvming fcs / discords is where you'll see that

[lunar portal]

Alrights, cheers. I'm sure I'll see it if I get into group bosses but rn am not good enough to join any teams.
Haven't really looked at either #bossing-discussion or #boss-of-the-week 😅

[worldly goblet]

what if we put the enrichment aura benefits on the boons?

[late lava]

Its already guna be added as a baseline effect for the skill.

[lucid moss]

make it a tool in the toolbelt and then charge it like how books/scriptures are charged. select which aura upon activation

[late lava]

That wont be happening.

[true ridge]

It would be better to keep the aura slot and apply some changes to the system (like people have been suggesting for years) than to add it to the tool belt.

[jolly stream]

Better again to remove entirely.

[faint glade]

Seconded, delete auras

[obtuse matrix]

wonder how much a vamp or penance perk would cost.... for head gear augments 🙂

[fierce belfry]

It works its needed for high level bossing

[jolly stream]

auras are not needed for bossing at all. definitely not the ones in question

[fierce belfry]

@jolly stream what do you use? Curious

[jolly stream]

as in, auras? half the time i forget to even turn one on

[fierce belfry]

Gear

[jolly stream]

i climbed the gear ladder with appropriate gear at each tier, as a hardcore ironman. so that means.. doing gwd1 with gear available before then, and gwd1 quality gear, for example.

all the way up to, now finishing rax/telos/ag grinds without issue. rasial is easy, so necro can get max gear without auras entirely.
i wouldnt say any of that required auras in any way.

[worldly goblet]

you do realize in that whole paragraph of a response you never said once what gear you are using that you dont need auras right?

[patent needle]

[hybrid mica]

it's self explanatory. "I'm going to do level 70 content, so I'm using my 60/65 gear to get the 70 drops then using that. When I'm doing 75 or 80 I'm using my 70-80 gear drops I've gotten on the way" Before necromancy, a lot of the mid game bosses like gwd2 offer reso bait attacks, or you can mitigate most of the damage by dealing with mechanics properly. With necromancy it just gets even easier

pretty much every aura removed/being removed has had some form of compensation, often a net buff to the player. Base damage generally went up in the update, base accuracy generally went up between 120 max stats and hitchance modifiers being shifted up (as much as 50% bonus accuracy in gwd2), penance and vamp are still in-game with replacement aspects coming as the current plan, etc.

[rugged citrus]

and the gloves in 10 days for vamp

[jolly stream]

So i need to give an exact list of things i used over 5 years ago? I assumed they would have the brains to work it out for themselves, and was very likely correct, so they dont need someone brigading, but since someone had a problem, ill make it more clear.

I likely used lunar for gwd1.
I likely used gwd1 gear for gwd2.
I used gwd2 gear to beat nex and unlock gear for necro when that eventually came out.
Do i need to go on?

[eternal igloo]

Ehh I've been testing the triangle styles at zuk, eds and raksha with this gear with auras on and off:

Weapons:
Melee - fury blades / dragonrider lance (unperked)
Mage - cywir dw (entry perks)
Range - decimation bow (entry perks)

Armor
Melee - bandos (unperked) / t90 masterwork (entry perks)
Range - armadyl (unperked) & sirenic (entry perks)
Magic - ganodermic (unperked)

Accessories I used um book 2, dragonrider amulet and sixth age circuit, depending on what I was doing I was using 99 def cape or zuk cape

I also avoided using darkness as much as I can, still used bone shield
Since I'm 120 while I carried an overload to occupy an inventory slot I did not chug it

All of them are incredibly accessible gear for mains, and a good chunk of them are procurable on irons relatively early on in progression
Even with avoiding using greater abilities for melee and gchain for aoe and playing super suboptimally from being rusty, you now have way more DPS at that stage of progression in the game to the point where I genuinely believe we're buffed enough to not need assistance from any auras anymore

[jolly stream]

yeah, we're all past that point. the only people that will be actually unable to do this content are people that dont want to interact with combat in any way, including not wanting to think about optimising revo bars (which all of this is probably doable with), and wanting enough power that they can ignore literally every mechanic in the game, and at that point, its not healthy to accommodate those people.

[fathom flume]

If a player had already purchased an aura that will be made available going forward, that aura should be grandfathered in so it doesn't need to be repurchased.

[rugged citrus]

auras are being deleted

[fathom flume]

Okay, let me rephrase it: The few new passive unlocks should be free if you had the corresponding aura previously.

[north trellis]

Would be nice

[distant jungle]

At the same time though, the whole point of the new system is that they're earnable in game. If you didn't earn it, why should you have it?

[signal surge]

didn't exactly earn the auras either, they were just a free handout from accumulating points that were an on-top of your membership

unless one wants to argue the point of the membership was the loyalty points, which.. no?

[hybrid mica]

you could loosely say that someone could be motivated to boss by the MoW unlocks for those auras, but even then those ended up as freebies from bossing most people would do anyways

[signal surge]

yes, i do think some small accomodations are probably fair for the auras that were sourced not from loyalty points

[hybrid mica]

most people actually bossing to that degree would qualify to unlock the new spells pretty easily though, if not already have them

Mild magic level for penance, slightly higher magic level + ancients for vamp

[mossy torrent]

Looking forward to auras being deleted. They've needed to go for a long time.

[loud imp]

Its crazy to me how old they actually are. Predating Squeal

[formal scroll]

Ive mentioned it before, but at the very least theres a mismatched cost for the replacement aspects tier vs the runes needed to use them that needs to be considered. If the spell is meant to be mid tier, it should NOT cost soul runes, soul runes either get dropped in miniscule quantities at those levels, require a decent level in slayer or ability to farm, or need 90 RC to make, they arent really a mid level resource imo, and shouldnt be used as a cost for a mid level spell

[worldly flicker]

worth noting players with 66 magic will be able to buy 700 soul runes a week

or 2100 with lunar diplomacy and the feud also complete

I don't really think it's an issue, very few players were using penance to the extent that won't sustain

[rugged citrus]

soul runes are too thematic to not use tbh and access to them is kinda okay for ironmen (just de-iron if you don't like upkeep)

[hybrid mica]

75 souls runes per hour is a small price to pay for unlimited prayer

[jolly stream]

Its likely anyone complaining about upkeep was only complaining because they were using penance to save cents on prayer potions anyways.

[rugged citrus]

at that point in the game it's also the only thing you're gonna be using soul runes for, unless dragonstone crossbow bolts are made really good

the other uses are teleports, bad seren spells, and stuff you aren't really going to make use of until endgame

unless you want to be some hench midgame pvmer spamming vuln while using normal spells

[jolly stream]

We dont use a lot of soul runes, but theres a lot of good spells that use them.

[hybrid mica]

for the demographic of "mid level who might not have tons of access to the generous droppers of the runes" there isn't a good selection

[jolly stream]

Depends on what you call midgame. it we're saying irons, thats likely including thieving and c mask, because those are priority. And because of that, all seren spells

If we're saying thats too late for midgame for some reason, midgame is only your first few hours in the game and doesnt really matter anyways

[rugged citrus]

bro gets 75 in most skills and 80 in a quarter of them in a few hours as an ironman

also completes like 50 quests in that time

[jolly stream]

Yeah, but when you think about it, its not exactly that much longer than a single endgame grind for a single item to get there.

[lunar portal]

Midgame as a first timer for me was literally years. But for my alt who knew what was up, it was only month/s

Game knowledge plays into it so much, and those who wiki vs. those who don't etc. Can't really put a time on it honestly.

[jolly stream]

Yeah, it depends a lot on what your goals are. If you have no goals, or tiny ones, like we did 20 years ago, progress is slower. But a majority of new players are coming in already looking at an efficiency guide.

[lunar portal]

I went mostly off the in-game skill guides and tried all new things unlocked etc, which were often less efficient but oftentimes more fun. 😁 Almost all combat was trained via slayer with no task skips instead of zoomin' to 99 in an hour at ED3 or whatever the go-to is nowadays

[hybrid mica]

My definition was straightforward. The complaint was "it's a mid level spell, there's no soul runes at mid levels", so for that group, at that level of magic (mid 60+) and the player still has no access to the big soul rune droppers. If we start including things like "crystal mask" you have the light within, 90+ magic, a ton of 80+ stats, and very likely have access to a bunch of the good sources. At that point you'll have or be next to the levels of unlocking Nightmares which do drop tons of them.

[jolly stream]

the problem with that logic is, you dont level all skills one level at a time and keep them all around the same point. thats not generally normal gameplay. some do it for sure, but most dont, so levels in the 60s doesnt really tell you a good metric of progress.
can people be using souls early? absolutely. does it matter in the context of this conversation? not at all, they can pay the damn soul tax, and get more if they need it. shopscape provides more than you need, unless you're absolutely allergic to getting skills to provide materials, in which case... why the hell are you an iron?

[formal scroll]

You just like to be contrarian don't you? "Just deiron if you don't like the price"
Are you joking?
"Oh if you don't like this one aspect of this one ability that isn't even in the game yet, you should completely stop playing that version of the game"
What a terrible reply.

[rugged citrus]

I mean, as established, it isn't even actually a problem

[jolly stream]

thats kind of it though. ironman mode is a mode around getting your own supplies

[formal scroll]

I'm aware, and personally these changes aren't even really a blip to me, but I don't like pulling ladders up behind me

[jolly stream]

them balancing the game isnt 'pulling ladders' or anything. its a live service game. things will change.

[formal scroll]

I'm not exactly struggling for soul runes myself, I just don't think it should be part of the cost of a "mid level" spell

[jolly stream]

and they are definitely changing things for the better of the game as a whole.
there are ways to get soul runes early if you need them. if you need them, do more of those things.

[hybrid mica]

if you have access to the spell you have access to shops that sell the runes or you could go procure some

[formal scroll]

They are functionally AND thematically NOT a mid level rune, they are quite literally the second to last rune you can make needing level 90

[rugged citrus]

I think it actually shakes out to be pretty good for the midgame, with how you can get by just fine doing shop runes but if you complete two quests, one of which involves midgame levels in a few skills, you'll have more than enough; this rewards players that aren't just combat goblins and players that are can still get by

[hybrid mica]

Is this a problem

[jolly stream]

functionally only means because they didnt have a use. giving them one means functionally, they are whenever the devs want them to be.
obtaining them is shopscape (which is about to be easier), or just doing the thing.
both of those can change easily.

[formal scroll]

Yes, shops exist if you know about them, and yes, monster drops exist, but those rely on RNG, which is a fickle mistress we all know. So they are not "mid game" and I don't really agree with vuln costing them either

[rugged citrus]

if you're an ironman and don't know about shop runs, you have literally no business being an ironman

literally, full elitism, just de-iron

[formal scroll]

But either way it will come down to what jagex decides to do with it, none of our opinions really matter

[jolly stream]

if you.. know about a shop? lets not pretend that most of the game doesnt want a wiki and careful planning. thats the sort of game runescape mostly is.
for those that are allergic to a wiki, and also dont like seeking out sources for themselves, theres this mode call 'the normal game', or mains that is built exactly for those people

[hybrid mica]

we don't need to start applying tierscape to the runes too. The mid-60 magic guild sells them

[jolly stream]

yeah, they are pretty obtainable. they sell 300, right? that supplies you with a decent amount of casts. not enough? get levels/quests/grind them

besides, people without those levels probably shouldnt be getting access to the spell all the time ANYWAYS.

[formal scroll]

There are going to be players who start a game and dont like to trade with others, so an ironman account might possibly be their first account, the whole point of alot of this rebalancing is to revitalize the game and try and draw in new players, so dont just assume everyone is gonna know about the wiki, or shops, or the optimal playstyle of an ironman, especially if thats what they decide to be their first account

[hybrid mica]

they sell 100, but they're going to do the store changes soon anyways so they'll stack up higher than that for the occasional pass-through, and there's other shops

[rugged citrus]

ironman mode is explicitly not made for people that intend to stumble through the game.

[formal scroll]

This whole argument that they can just go do a shop run in and of itself is elitist

[hybrid mica]

this person was not using penance organically

[jolly stream]

sounds like you're creating a problem conceptually though, for someone whos both stubborn to do their own challenge and is locked in to iron. so, you're trying to save someone from their own poor choices?

[eternal igloo]

Personally I think there's better space in expanding prayer restoratives
The hunter jars for giving prayer restoration in osrs seems pretty cool

[jolly stream]

prayer restore itself is totally fine though

[formal scroll]

Yea but thats quite literally what this whole arguement is, its conceptual, cause the spell hasnt even been confirmed as 100% the route theyre going yet

[jolly stream]

like, in osrs it made sense because prayer was a little harder earlier. but in rs3, we dont have that issue. prayer potions are kind of free anyways.

[hybrid mica]

This person has somehow locked themselves out of all knowledge of prayer restoration, runes, stores, locked into ironman, got this far, and has somehow been using penance without knowing anything about the game in the 6 months that they've been accumulating loyalty points

[rugged citrus]

the spell is less conceptual than "What about a new player that chooses an ironman just because and doesnt want to de-iron and doesnt want to look anything up"

[jolly stream]

^

[formal scroll]

There are literally youtube videos of people doing exactly that my dude, some people dont want to rely on guides to play

[jolly stream]

just because there are videos of that doesnt mean we have to save people from their own poor choices, or craft a game around those people. there are plenty of videos of stupid people doing stupid things

[rugged citrus]

even ignoring the fact that this exact scenario is why some people like going into things like ironman modes blind

[formal scroll]

Your arguing sematics though, and im telling you, some people simply will not know about getting soul runes from shops, and regardless, it does NOT change the fact soul runes are functionally NOT a mid game rune

[jolly stream]

yeah, the discovery is kind of the point. it creates a problem, in a way, but solving those problems is kind of the point?

the divide is when you think thats actually a problem, which there are simple solutions to

being, de-iron, or use the wiki.

[rugged citrus]

soul runes not being a mid-game rune is semantics

[hybrid mica]

honestly, "negating prayer as a mechanic for long periods of time" isn't a midgame effect either but we're stuck with that due to a MTX option being available this long

[formal scroll]

Penance wasnt really an mtx thing, it was a loyalty points thing for extended membership to be fair

[rugged citrus]

worse than mtx then :)

[jolly stream]

penance absolutely was an mtx thing. in order to get it, you need to pay for members in advance... or wait ages. id argue time gated is worse than mtx.

[formal scroll]

Thats not a microtransaction, micro transactions are quite literally that, a small seperate transaction inside the game. The auras being tied to extended membership is garbage sure, but its not a microtransaction

[hybrid mica]

okay if we're narrowing the definition like that let's also clear up the other smoke, this isn't about "random poor lost soul players" it's about "I don't want to give my free prayer up"

[jolly stream]

arguing its not micro enough is semantics, and not really a discussion worth having.

[formal scroll]

Look, ive said my piece, i dont think a mid level spell should cost soul runes, simple as that, clearly im not going to change opinions here, though personally i dont like the idea of it even being an aspect spell at its core, but that isnt the argument

Personally id say reduce prayer drain across the board and just get rid of the whole idea of penance, but thats just me

[jolly stream]

yeah, you're entitled to have your opinion, of make the game easier because easier. but thats just an opinion i guess.

but it definitely wouldnt be a good direction for the game

[formal scroll]

I genuinely dont know how to respond to that nonsense response

[rugged citrus]

i dont get what the point is in deleting penance and instead just reducing prayer drain, the entire reason people want penance is for infinite prayer points not for improved prayer point sustain

they don't want to use less prayer potions, they want to use no prayer potions

[jolly stream]

theres also the fact that prayer is trivial for most of the game. i literally focus on pvm and try to avoid farming entirely, and i have 10k super restores and drink them like candy water, without even needing to touch my prayer potion stack

most afk content, if you're intelligent generates prayer potions.

[hybrid mica]

we literally have years of improving stuff like that for the player. The prayer restoration necklaces were mistakenly changed to be 10x stronger and got nerfed to 5x stronger

[formal scroll]

Dude im not a mid level player, none of this even has the remotest effect on me, as i said before, i dont like pulling up ladders behind me

[rugged citrus]

penance is not good enough to be applicable to any kind of pulling of a ladder

[formal scroll]

And to naturals point, there are OTHER ways to generate infinite prayer beside penance anyway

[jolly stream]

^ its literally never been more efficient or better to use penance anyways. it seems like your main problem is option being removed = bad, whether its good for the game or not.

[hybrid mica]

we are leaving in various forms of generous prayer restoration and giving an alternative anyways, this is a non-issue if one form of it gets slightly less convenient in an abstract set of circumstances

[formal scroll]

Its not about the removal, its about the REPLACEMENT being bad to me, if your gonna remove it, remove it, but i dont like the spell aspect replacement at its core, but if its gonna exist, it shouldnt cost soul runes

[jolly stream]

the replacement HAD to be worse. thats the whole point. auras were overpowered as fuck, and having an alternative that can be on all the time absolutely needed to have a cost, a choice, or be worse.

[formal scroll]

Honestly if people didnt have such a problem with the pocket slot idea, it could have simply been a scrimshaw or something along those lines, but reddit is gonna reddit in that regard

[jolly stream]

yeah, it could have been. but thats also the same thing. it would have needed upkeep anyways, and would still have been a choice.

[hybrid mica]

the replacement isn't even bad. By the time they update shops you're going to be able to periodically stop buy and stockpile hours of usage conveniently, even moreso than using the aura

[jolly stream]

if it were on pocket, it may still have needed soul runes as part of that upkeep. or worse, because pages ARE worse.

[hybrid mica]

they would have needed to add god pages to other sources if that had been the avenue

[jolly stream]

possibly. but that leads back to it likely being something like, or harder than soul runes. not trying to imply that soul runes are even hard, though

[rugged citrus]

rip useful normal god books with pages dropping from gwd and whatever

[hybrid mica]

without changes it would have been significantly worse than this option, and out of reach of a lot of the target mid level, yeah

[formal scroll]

It depends on what the core idea they went with ended up being for the pocket version, be it some sort of dg unlock, a monster drop, something you craft with prayer knowledge, there are any number of avenues it could have gone, but either way, i guess we will see what they settle on, who knows, its still just an idea until its implemented
I can spell i swear*

[jolly stream]

the idea for pocket slot was quite literally a god book or similar, with upkeep. it wasnt ever going to be a dg unlock that gave you a version that had no upkeep. (without significant nerfs, effectively making it useless anyways)

[formal scroll]

i mean thats almost functionally what the necklaces are though, they just take a different slot

[rugged citrus]

im completely on board with aspects, provided they have unique and good animations and vfx

[jolly stream]

sure, but since the necklaces exist already.... why would we want another one?

[hybrid mica]

also throwing it out there, if they went with "cutting prayer drain in half" and stuff, that would effectively be doubling the power of all existing restoration options which is also not needed

[jolly stream]

we haev a mechanic that already exists to slow prayer drain thats quite good. its called prayer bonus

[formal scroll]

I mean, why do we need a familiar for sifting soil in the upcoming update when an archaeology shop invention item does? QOL? Ease of access? Its not like this would be the first or last of items that functionally do exactly the same thing but are accessed different ways, i mean we literally just got a runecrafting pouch that removed the need to carry all other pouches once it was made and completely negates the existence of a relic power. Its just a thing They do sometimes

[rugged citrus]

can you believe people used to trade off their entire set of gear for the sake of prayer sustain for afk

now they riot if they have to give up a single slot

[formal scroll]

i mean at the highest levels blessed flask exists as well, so prayer is a long gone memory as a concern at that point

[jolly stream]

but we dont really need an alternate method of sustaining a system thats already pretty trivial to cheese anyways. prayer isnt a concern.

its only a concern early, and honestly, thats a good thing. having problems to solve is one of the things that makes the game fun. if there were no problems, and everything was handed to people, which is basically what you're suggesting, you're removing the fun from the game

[hybrid mica]

blessed flask requires extreme prayers for a reason, to at least give someone a pause on "do I want to use this here" instead of permanently negating prayer, and even that's an active decision, not one that works while afk like penance does. It's also not even in the same realm of accessibility. Some fringe late to endgame stuff someone can jump through a ton of hoops to obtain is not the same as everyone getting access to constantly negation of a core stat

That's like comparing top end gear or Ingenuity of Humans to unlocking a 100% accuracy toggle from Dragon Slayer

[formal scroll]

I wasnt even comparing it, i was just saying that at the highest levels it makes the whole point moot regardless

[jolly stream]

at the highest levels (of gameplay), you dont often need more than a single super restore flask anyways

[formal scroll]

I mean it depends on what your fighting and how long you want to camp there i guess, but you arent really wrong either

Either way, i have my opinion on the matter, at the bare minimum dont believe it should cost soul runes, or be an aspect in general, cause i also dont really like the idea of it or vampirism needing to compete with something like darkness or animate dead either, but thats more just me nitpicking

[jolly stream]

yeah, you think prayer should just be made easy, because you think some 'new irons' might need help (although im pretty active in iron chat and dont see that), and that its already trivial for everyone else, so it doesnt matter.

[formal scroll]

Yea and you think things should be hard just for the sake of being hard, with no QoL updates ever added to the game

Cause last i checked i never said i wanted it to be "made easy" i just dont like their current idea for the replacement of a thing that has existed in the game for over a decade, so if we are putting words in other peoples mouths im just gonna assume thats youre stance on the game

[jolly stream]

the thing is, its not that hard. it just requires effort, which was the point of ironman. you can access easy ranarrs at very low combat (flesh crawlers, in the security dungeon which you're pushed towards for gp anyways), and snape grass is literally on the ground.

we have it WAY easier than osrs as well, and its kind of in a good place in osrs.

[formal scroll]

Im not saying its hard, but i AM allowed to not like their suggestion, and i dont agree functionally with that suggestion including soul runes

[jolly stream]

yeah, you absolutely are.

[formal scroll]

No, im saying it functionally doesnt make sense
If its gonna be an aspect its gonna be an aspect, but i dont agree that something that is being considered mid game spell costing something that technically is not a mid game resource, but at this point we are just arguing in circles, so we can agree to disagree, and go on with our nights

[jolly stream]

-shrugs- you're the one continuing this, not me. you're just trying to argue semantics for something that doesnt even require it. soul runes are only 'not mid game' because you said they arnt. the spell is only 'midgame' because you said it is.
realistically, you have access to the spell when you unlock it, and can sustain it. cant do those things? then find a way to do those things. this is the joy of ironman, the only people that will have this issue.

[formal scroll]

..... The fact you don't see the irony in that first comment is all I need to know about how any further conversation with you would go, have a nice night

[jolly stream]

-shrugs- what an offhanded thing to say, just to have the last word

[glossy stump]

Word

[pallid salmon]

@formal scroll i think your argument would be better compare with fletching to arrows as runecraft to runes for spells

[worldly flicker]

tbh even without shop runs I don't see a problem with saying that for irons, reliable access to penance/vamp is part of the reward for 90 RC. people are talking as though these are currently things all the mid levels have and certainly penance just isn't

[pallid salmon]

Not what he saying thou

[worldly flicker]

not quite, but I do try and steelman arguments - his actual argument is vastly weaker

[pallid salmon]

And in way it could be said for alot spells as the rune types that require higher rc level to make being used for low level spell dosent make sense

A tier 60 spell should use combo of tier 60 runes or lower

[distant jungle]

If you try and work on that basis then cosmic runes should be available to craft from like level 7 or so

[pallid salmon]

Not tier 90 runes because you can get them as drop or buy from a shop irrelevent

Kinda yea its wonky set up

Like where are mind runes used anymore

[distant jungle]

Just because you can use it doesn't mean it should be super easy to be self-craftable at the same time. Old M&S (and current craft/fletching) goes too far to the extreme, but given there are plenty of ways to get the runes outside of crafting them directly I don't think it's an issue

[worldly flicker]

this seems like a really bad idea imo

you compare it to fletching but the issue with fletching absolutely is not that you should be able to craft a weapon of similar tier as soon as you hit x level in fletching - the issue is, rather, that by the time the player hits the level to fletch an MSB or whatever, that option is likely already irrelevant to them. Were all options stronger than an MSB harder to get than 80 fletching, 80 fletching for a t50 weapon would be absolutely fine

[pallid salmon]

Then whats point of runecraft skill let monster drops be the source of all runes

[worldly flicker]

in contrast, with RC there is no such issue of relevance. Soul runes continue to be relevant by the time you hit level 90

[pallid salmon]

I think yall miss the point lol

[worldly flicker]

I don't think we do - 'A tier 60 spell should use combo of tier 60 runes or lower'

you assume, rather than justify this. I think that statement is not correct - there is no good reason to limit spell runes in such a way

[late lava]

If the spell where lvl 60 with NO way to get soul runes then yeah it would be a broblem.
As it is now tho you can get soul runes at a decent volume, even better after dailyscape update.

[pallid salmon]

Basically runecrafting is irrelevent and rely on monsters as rune source 👍

[worldly flicker]

that's not the consequence of what we're saying

you still need soul runes at level 90 runecrafting

[pallid salmon]

Why runecraft thou when i can get stacks of runes from monster drops

[worldly flicker]

that is an issue with soul runes - they are far too slow to craft. all other runes are much quicker to craft than get from drops

[pallid salmon]

May as well get rid rc and fletch and have monster drop arrows too

[late lava]

Unless you farm up runes for days from monster before using magic you'll always be short

[charred oyster]

Might as well delete most skills cause thieving exists

[pallid salmon]

Yup

[late lava]

Items can have multiple sources. They dont have to be exclusively from one place.

[pallid salmon]

So would arrow drops be the fix for the fletching problem

[charred oyster]

A sloppy bandaid fix for one component to the skill sure

[worldly flicker]

I've explained to you already why you're drawing a false equivalence between fletching and RC here

[late lava]

Fletching needs a full retier and arrows for more core metals. anything 70+ is a monster drop

[charred oyster]

I mean isn't the only rune that's shit to craft is soul runes so it's desirable to get them elsewhere? All the other runes are better to craft

[pallid salmon]

But your also saying spells shouldnt use coresponding rc lvl of runes because you can get them from drops thief ect.. but if arrows took same direction its sloppy and not ok...

[distant jungle]

Arrows are a core component to ranged gameplay, it's only the utility stuff that requires higher level runes than the level of the spell requires.
If it was like, fire runes needing level 30 RC I'd agree

[worldly flicker]

personally I think with specific spells you could not have access to a given rune at the spell's level at all and that would be completely fine

[rocky forge]

...Aspects ARE utility

...also... monsters DO drop arrows

[pallid salmon]

Not tier 95

[rugged citrus]

because everyone loves hard enforced tierscape, this has never been a point of complaint ever at all

[rocky forge]

t95 arrows are gotten at 95 fletching, they aren't the problem here lol

[pallid salmon]

But i can get my higest tier runes from mob drops

[distant jungle]

god arrows are mob drops technically

[rugged citrus]

the fix for arrows is chargebows, which already exist

[rocky forge]

by that logic so are time runes

[pallid salmon]

Rc is irrelevent skill i understand👍 mobs are the source of runes spells make total sence you can be tier 60 magic and rc but still need and can use tier 90 runes because its a monster drop yup makes sense

[rugged citrus]

yeah actually, that's explicit in runescape itself, runes used to only come from mobs, and runecrafting was designed specifically to slot into that world, not replace monster drops

so even in your extreme hyperbole that doesn't actually reflect reality, yes.

[pallid salmon]

What back in classic lol

[rugged citrus]

jagex's half-assed commitment to tierscape created this kind of player

[rocky forge]

RC gives you more control over which runes you have access to, and also gives you some weapons these days

[distant jungle]

I mean, in the sense of essence comes from mobs which you turn into runes, sure? But they're not the only source of essence, whilst some anima is only sourced from mob drops

[rocky forge]

but also... Vampirism and Penance are utility effects, not core functions, so like... is it a problem that the lowest level reasonable access to Cosmic Runes is either killing Hill Giants or going to the Mage Arena Shop?

is it a problem that craftable enchantable jewelry is later than 7 crafting?

[rocky forge]

...are you mining essence?

[distant jungle]

Thieving, Tremple Trekking, (Mining). There's more than just PvM to get essence, and PvM isn't how your early/mid game essence is acquired

[rocky forge]

...Temple Trekking isn't combat? I don't think I've ever had a route that didn't have at least one set of encounters with only combat options. Thieving isn't offering essence until 59 and I'm going to repeat the question, are you actually mining for essence?

[distant jungle]

Of course not, because no one in their right mind would mine for essence unless they need an absolutely tiny quantity of it

[jolly stream]

What a weird pointless argument lol.

[hybrid mica]

Tierscape was a mistake

[late lava]

Tierscape?

[violet marten]

Should the effects of the Dwarven instinctive aura be given to the Luck of the Dwarves ring, in a similar effect Seren spirits have with Grace of the Elves?

[late lava]

Can do without dwarven instinct. Loot is trash anyway.

[hybrid mica]

EOC wanted to standardize everything and make it easy to balance, so it set a standard of "everything should fit clean brackets, everything should have the exact same stats at a level, no variation" etc. which started extending into "level 60 item? Should be easily obtainable and craftable at 60 or below, no variation", all equipment for cb styles having the same equal stats, equal damage, equal tools, etc. Which has tapered out in some cases over time because it was boring, but usually just to make one specific new thing better than everything else

While it is a good change to not have things like "99 to make a level 40 item", it's a very rigid design strategy, boring, and breaks a lot of things when treating them as guidelines rather than exact rules/power levels makes more sense like some of the classic stat reqs/osrs. People only seem to accept it when it's treated as a bonus like "this level 40 item has level 50 stats and no drawbacks, a BONUS"

[hybrid mica]

switch it to some sort of mining or smithing buff, even something like geodes for more loot since it's also unlocked for 200 rep at artisan workshop. random loot everywhere was a dumb effect anyways just trying to justify buying the aura with membership at the time.

[formal scroll]

See i have the opposite stance on tierscape, firstly because we already have things the have an tier system to the other half of them, and tying them to something that is completely out of wack with their level of crafting feels bland an unrewarding. Why does a bow that i need 95 fletching to make only scale to level 60 range? Why does being 93 crafting grant me the ability to craft both a level 75 range armor but also the 90 and 92 ones? The tiering of things that are intrinsically linked together already simply makes more sense and feels more rewarding to level them together. Thats part of my whole argument on the aura as well

Im not saying they need to be 1 to 1 level requirements like mining and smithing, but they should still fit into the tier the belong to.
Plus the whole tradeoff of most of the craftable things is they are specifically not augmentable.

[hybrid mica]

almost every example of wildly inconsistent requirements is something from a previous iteration of the game. When they decided to tierscape everything for EOC they just started grabbing items, stripping them of anything special, then slapping them in the gap because there became an obligation for there to be a new item every few levels when levels themselves initiall meant nothing. Ganodermic needing 90+ stats to make wasn't for 75 armor, it was for 85 equip level with obscenely high stats and anti-magic properties that make Crypt look fairly tame. Same for the other fungal armors but at lower levels/severity. Various ammos were statted differently, they weren't meant to be picked up immediately and dumped immediately the levels you unlock/pass them. Some related items get caught up in those levels despite not being special because they were based on previously special items (IE dark ammo from dragon, dino armor from gano), and simple items should be appropriate to get and all that, but EOC era tierscaping putting everything into a crappy rigid expendable system was a mistake and the game suffered for it, with most of the defense for it falling under "it guaranteed I'd always get power spikes and readily available buffs for an already easy game because every time tierscape worked against the player we got an exception to weaken the content"

[obtuse matrix]

not sure i get your point still on why tierscape is a mistake.

tierscape, from a designs standpoint, is to ensure there are standards applied to both combat and skilling

without a standard, who's to say that you require level 120 crafting to create a tier-50 weapon and armour?

that doesn't make any sense at all does it?

furthermore, it pushes the power dynamic towards PVM being the ONLY source where players can get the tier of equipment they need

this is not even considering vice-versa on how skilling would also be affected, if for example you require 120 mining to only equip a tier-50 pickaxe

slotting in reworks now across the board is a good thing - though i will admit i personally have a strong objection to how masterwork works - as it is also helpful to new players who need a good progression model to follow without being too put-off by having 120 stats but only being able to craft tier-50 gear to PVM

the major problem is the horizontal variety that is lacking substantially, which none of the reworks are touching on, and from the current state, seems to only be "resolved" in endgame gear

[hybrid mica]

It's not that "there is a standard", it's that the number listed takes priority over everything else to the point that people get baffled by any deviation. 99% of the game is "the equip level? You know the exact stats", vs the actual nuance of things like using the equip level as the requirement to wear, but being aware of the source, special effects, repairs, being a niche, etc.

You don't have to rigidly follow it to have some standards. You don't have to say "everything has to play by this exact rule" to avoid "120 smithing to make a level 10 item" and it's insane that we think that pre EOC/osrs was some dark age of the game being unplayable in that sense. All they've had to do is occasionally change a req or stat to make a bit more sense, and the system is generally more flexible where it functions just fine without someone feeling obligated to get the new level weapon and discard everything else every few levels

[rugged citrus]

Tierscape created this all important number with the idea that this is the only thing players would have to look at to know they're progressing well - this was the intention of tierscape and sounds good on paper, but:

To enforce this, they homogenized and sterilized gear across the game - there was a massive debacle with nex gear, coming from the hardest boss at the time, being massively sterilized and turned into basic tier 80 armor, same with ganodermic

While the intention was to have a simple number to inform players of what they're equipping, it didn't take long at all for them to go back on this because it's Jagex and that's how they operate, so they sterilized gear and stats for nothing because they then started giving gear -5 tiers of this, +10 tiers of that
oh this gear is hybrid so it's -15 tiers on everything, but this special gear is typed All so it doesn't have the tier penalty. That gear requires level 70 defense to equip but actually has t85 stats. This gear requires level 85 defense but since it's the inferior version it actually has t82 stats. These weapons require level 85 to equip but actually have t90 accuracy and t80 damage. This gear is tier 99 but requires level 100 to create but has t85 stats. They are doing the same thing they were doing pre-eoc, where half of the gear hasn't been following a rigid system for the last 10+ years, except they keep presenting this tier number and you get players constantly asking if they should get this or that because they have the same tier number, or if masterwork weapons are good because they're t100

Melee weapons used to have higher bonuses than ranged and magic weapons, now they all have the same stats for the same tier but melee abilities just deal more damage; they created numbers that don't mean anything

Nowadays there's a decent amount of people that think melee armor should outright just have higher defense values, citing how animate dead is such a massive jump in defensive capability but exclusive to magic. What's more likely to happen is we just get another defensive aspect but for melee, but if they end up going with a sweeping change it would be very amusing to have all melee tank gear claim like +15 tiers of defense or some stupid shit, or have a damage reduction% slapped on

Back during pre-eoc I have never witnessed anyone talk about how the stat screen was too complex to parse (and get this, it actually worked!) homogenization was a solution to a problem no one had. Even current osrs players can parse the stat screen

[hybrid mica]

And any time an item deviates at all, it lists the tier next to that number. 49 accuracy on a 50 weapon?

Level: 50
Accuracy: 837 (TIER 49)

As if, WOW, I could never compare weapons and discern that the way we did pre EOC or in osrs or any other game, and it HAS to fit tiers, it can't be like "2134 accuracy" because that's where they ultimately felt the correct number was, it has to be like "2170 (90) or 2100(89)" to line up with tiers.

And now we have magic invisible affinity numbers to explain why melee blocks ranged better than magic, there no way to know on your equip screen how good it is

[worldly flicker]

surely every RPG player ever is spending 90 seconds looking at and comparing numbers every time they get a new item they're unfamiliar with anyway

standardisation is bad, consistency is bland, reject it all

(there is a problem with fletching unlocks though but that's not to do with 'tierscape')

[hybrid mica]

Updating certain things that don't make sense since reworks like smithing levels not being 99 for 40 armor because it's not 2002 is fine. Every item being identical and strictly following those numbers, bad. We don't even have a tiny bit of variety like long swords vs scimitars having slight variations on damage/accuracy while sticking to a "rune weapon" guideline or whatever.

And since this stemmed from runes/aspects for auras. Also people only complain one way on tierscape. We have level 100 scaling barrage and surge spells, and you can cast them with much lower level runes. You can use your purchased t100 staff with level 100 air surge that runs on air runes you're crafting at level 1. Where's the t100 cyclone rune req? And you can craft soul runes at the ZMI altar or with blood runes and invention if we're talking about souls being "90", despite them being made reasonably available otherwise

[obtuse matrix]

this is a completely separate issue from standardising tiers; it has to do with variety, something that weap diversity should have came along with tiering.

the moment they brought in tiering, stuff like abby whip and barrows became near obsolete, which should have resolved by bringing in weap diversity changes - which got rejected 3 times now?

a few of us did propose to have that simple variation of gear stats, such examples below.

dagger (weapon speed focus - now obsolete)
scimitar (accuracy focus, e.g. +5 acc / -5 dmg)
mace (prayer bonus focus, e.g. +100 prayer / -5 acc)
sword (damage focus, e.g. +5 dmg / -5 acc)

scythe (aoe focus, e.g. +1 attack range / -15 dmg)
2h maul (crit dmg focus, e.g. +10 crit dmg / -5 acc, -5 dmg)
2h sword (healing focus, e.g. +1000 hp / -5 acc)

etc.

[obtuse matrix]

tier and equip level have some correlation - or they should

otherwise, like pre-eoc, you end up having 2 weapons with the same equip level, but one is clearly having the power of a weapon that is 20 equip levels higher

that is a problem in itself for why standardisation is required

[rugged citrus]

that's still a thing post-eoc

[quick viper]

I think auras are perfect now. Just make them unlockable through gameplay and I think we’re good.

[late lava]

No. They need to go