Patch Notes: Combat Style Modernisation

[brittle spire]

I think its actually bolt/arrow breaking and not Ava's device mb

[haughty rampart]

To be fair raids and nm zuk are very much lategame. Not all the way endgame but closer to end than midgame.

[eternal dune]

Myself and a handful of people are disheartened by the removal of the legacy walk animation when using legacy combat / classic combat.

The old school walk animation and weapon stances were a thread tying the game back to the old days and part of the culture here. Now they are gone.

[steel verge]

At this point legacy mode may as well not exist.
Auto attacks in legacy are identical to spamming the basic attack ability.
No attack speed based on weapon, no diffrent damage profiles.
Special attacks dont even work properly

[broken forge]

Can we please get a way to remove the text that was added to ability books?
Previously all my const abilities fit on my UI without having to scroll. Now it has a scroll bar and as you can see from the defenseive book next to it there's now tons of dead space that was not there before.

I understand these labels can be helpful for new players but not everyone needs them so please let us turn the on and off just like we can with slim headers.

[quick notch]

Magic feels very nice with the new system. I was able to get the HM Nakatra Master timer today without having to change much of what I normally do with magic

[magic delta]

necro is garbage now, ras kills are 20-30 seconds slower whilst doing the exact same things, equilibrium perk (criminal that we need a perk slot to be at the old power lol) needs to be sooner rather than later

[inner pulsar]

Start using crit, it was better before anyways

[gentle turtle]

Generally the direction I want the game to go is to keep making a game that has a deep combat system, focusing on the abilities. When you have a game where the goal is to grind the boss as much as possible, one of the only things you can really do is give depth to the combat system so that there is always something to improve at. Chasing pbs, self improvement. This is generally why I always try to represent the endgame players as much as possible (even though am noob) aand the main reason that I think melee does too much damage for no reason (even though afking and comparing to other styles dps/economy is probably the more important one)

[gentle turtle]

Other melee takes that I think are good. Although the short term solution to melee being as strong as magic is likely nerfs and then there's room to look at adjustments/reward space to make melee more interesting again.

[nova geyser]

I like the updates

[dusty marlin]

2026 has been pretty much NerfScape in my eyes, and it won't forebode well in... 12 days when the dailies are nerfed 'restored' as well.

[nova geyser]

good

[gentle turtle]

I do expect combat nerfs for the beta changes but overall it should still be a buff compared to before the beta. Even if magic got a 10% nerf to match range, it would be equal live pre-beta mage. Melee specially got a 40% dps increase compared to pre-beta, coming from third place among the combat styles all the way to first. So probably some adjustments needed there

[stark brook]

I really hope there are nerfs. The current state is just way too overpowered compared to before. I don't know if I believe that they even understand that this is a problem though. They had a month long beta and somehow didn't notice? =\\

[gentle turtle]

Yeah for sure. Maybe too busy with design discussions and no time for balancing discussions?

[stark brook]

That seems like the one thing you'd want to be sure to get right. Design can be tweaked ad infintium if needed. But if you break balance for, already 2 days now, you get so many more fake timers, fake CAs, etc., and it gets really hard to reverse that

[gentle turtle]

Yeah, I forgot that could happen too :/ plus false expectations as usual. At least the community seems to be generally aware of powercreep and reasonable style balance

[stark brook]

And are making the most of it =X I feel like any combat right now is bug abuse.... but that's only if they actually fix this.

Don't get me wrong, I like almost all of this update. The simpler flows, the stronger style camps, the reduced ability bloat - just, why spike damage by 50-100%, if not more? What on earth was the point of that?

I get a minor increase - especially with the 21 level increase for most styles. But this is way over the top.

If this sin't fixed, we basically just turned into OSRS, where timers are free or even accidental with BIS gear. Like it always amazed me when I'd see some OSRS video and the guy would just, like, accidentally get a GM time just killing the boss. Now, that's us too.

[sonic robin]

Love the changes in Combat 2.0 making combat fun again!! Please don't nerf the great changes you've implemented!!!

[gentle turtle]

Yeah, GM timers are supposed to be aspirational after all. Something that even endgame players consider difficult. If we aren't known as the aspirational pvm game compared to OSRS (like how OSRS players talked about 4k Telos in the early days) then that also loses a selling point to start Rs3, especially when starting the game is more accessible now. Powercreep also just messes up boss mechanics and makes bosses too easy so that's like a lose lose

[stark brook]

Powercreep will happen over time, especially in a 25 year old game. I get that, and I understand old combat will eventually become comparatively easy. Hell, I remember doing DKs near release and watching my entire pvp clan get wiped; it's been soloable, almost afkable except the hard style switch requirement, for probably well over a decade. That happens, and I get it.

This was not powercreep. This was a sudden, massive spike that basically made the floor(which, admittedly, I was much closer to) basically touching the ceiling.

Like I am not some elitist mad that noobs can now do what I did. I was somebody that until recently didn't even think masters were attainable. Then I put in a ton of work learning hybrid and optimizing stuff and knocked out all the solo timers(master not gm) ahead of this release, cause I (stupidly) thought they might get harder. Now, anyone can blow right past them, without any effort.

[gentle turtle]

I agree there too. It's usually fine if powercreep comes slowly as new bosses release :/

[spare shale]

Melee specially got a 40% dps increase compared to pre-beta

Uhhh. This is an insane take dude. You're literally just making numbers up.

[stark brook]

??? 40% is a very low estimate for the increase. Have you seen any of the videos since the update?

[gentle turtle]

My personal experience is at Vorkath and it's pretty high yeah. New unoptimized rotations winning over previous world record rotations

If melee is equal to mage (and easier to use) then you'd expect it would be a decent bit better

[strange wedge]

its not 40%
melee got boosted in the earlier game but bis is not too insane of a boost

its easier to deal high dpm but the maximum dpm is not much higher

also magic is still better at bis

[gentle turtle]

I've heard people theorycrafting about mage and melee about equaling out despite the damage ult time difference. Maybe it's not quite 40% but it's close. Pre-beta melee was quite a bit lower and harder to use while now it's keeping with magic After magic was buffed

keeping up* and then that's also not accounting for rotations still being unoptimized

[pearl wave]

Like are we comparing dmg from ults or the kit as a whole? Cause you have to be playing a different game if you dont think melee has a significant increase in dmg for its dmg/min

Like what was melees dpm (not ult only) before changes and what is it now?

Like are we ignoring what melee campers are doing in game rn at top end?

[strange wedge]

most ppl are talking abt melee revo++ becoming much better

but other than revo, melee isnt not buffed anywhere close to 40%

[toxic willow]

Legacy mode is broken max hit max mage gear is now 300s and specs don't work it's (ability not ready)

[gentle turtle]

Revo is more of a byproduct of melee being buffed by 40%, even without dragon battleaxe

[trim dagger]

Legacy or "classic" or whatever it's called just needs to be deleted if they want to really fix combat

[toxic willow]

How do that fix combat??

[olive valve]

I was never a top tier melee player (Angry face at switch-scape & Pre fight rotations). For me the melee changes have been strait buffs and i like them.

[strange wedge]

yeah and? melee isnt buffed by 40% just revo++ being better since its easier

[gentle turtle]

Just gotta look at the data. The main indicators being videos, theories about melee equalling mage overall and melee being third place behind range pre-beta. None would have gone for GM Zamorak or GM AoD with melee before and that was mainly done with range

[pearl wave]

Again what are the parameters are we using here? We looking at melee ults or camping at top end?

[toxic willow]

So yeah legacy combat is broken spec attacks no longer work EOC no abliatys is what it is so max hit is same as a level 30 EOC user

[runic willow]

Same. Melee felt so weak before when you didnt have Berserk up.

[gentle turtle]

I think my main issues are assault and overpowers (besies losing tradeoffs). I wouldn't even mind if berserk reset overpower cd so you would have incentive to overpower outside of berserk but there's too many overpowers inside of berserk while you are gaining insane adren (adren that even necro doesn't get for death skulls) and overpowers being insane damage

[runic willow]

I’ve only had 60% cost Meteor Strike for 2 days but if something ever happened to it I’d…

[rocky canopy]

maybe if you factor in bosses and skipping mechanics, that's where people might get the 40% more damage from melee

[gentle turtle]

I think meteor is fine and decently feel-good, feels like a good place rn. I don't see much reason for the damage itself though

[runic willow]

Meteor practically refunds its own cost entirely and then is such a massive adren gain buff

[spare shale]

If there were a "40% dmg buff" GMs would be SHATTERING their old PB times. This isn't happening. We can't just make up numbers based on vibes.

[gentle turtle]

40% compared to pre-beta. pre-beta was pretty weak

[rocky canopy]

I think it's fair to say that the rough rotations people cooked up being close to world record times is an increase though

[pearl wave]

You have a counter-arguement for the power melee campers have gotten?

Look at what melee camp is doing rn in game and try that again

[gentle turtle]

Style camp vs hybrid yeah. Mage and range camp should be better too but melee stands out

[pearl wave]

Because apparently top end only includes brid for some people

I'm watching melee camp pull faster timers than bridding and ppl here are saying melee barely got stronger

[rocky canopy]

yeah I've also seen melee camp doing pretty well

[spare shale]

The combat updates accomplished its intended goal of raising the floor while keeping the ceiling largely in-line with pre beta.

Yeah; if you're a casual PvMer, your kill time is going to go up because you can't put "kick" in your revo++ bar anymore. Having a universal basic atack and removing "forceful backhand" has partially eliminated noob-trap abilities; so if your old bar was awful before it's much harder to make it awful now; so yeah casual DPS is going to go up.

GM times are not getting shattered en-masse.

[pearl wave]

I feel like you missed my point - how much more dmg is melee camp doing now compared to pre-beta?

[spare shale]

The combat style is barely strong than it was. Players just have a much slimmer abiliy to have awful bars now.

[gentle turtle]

I don't think it accomplished it for melee and arguably range too. Melee didn't keep the skill because it's easier and it's more damage while revo became more of an issue than before

[spare shale]

So non-top end; like Revo++ Vindicta? We've gone from like 50 kills per hour to like 53 or 54.

[gentle turtle]

Mans, revo++ melee is same damage as manual necro

[pearl wave]

This is how we are comparing it? lol

[rocky canopy]

I've used melee in brid and camp yesterday, and the op spam is a decent amount of damage more than dagger spam - the reason why you might not see such a visible increase is prob cause you're capped by mechanics

[spare shale]

What are you comparing it too? I used it as a reference that's grounded in he type of players your talkign about.

What GM times have been shattered by 40%?

[gentle turtle]

Style camp became better by 40% while others maybe 10%

[rocky canopy]

brother instead of comparing gm times, isn't it better to compare dpm?

[gentle turtle]

A lot more people are reaching GM times too

[spare shale]

Right; the floor has been raised. The ceiling has been largely untouched. The goal of the beta was to raise he floor and keep the ceiling.

[rocky canopy]

that might also be something else like the floor raising yeah, so it's better to directly compare dpm

[gentle turtle]

I don't think easy GM times is quite raising the floor

[rocky canopy]

I mean I can tell you that for some players before the beta, these timers were easy to get

[spare shale]

GM times were not set by the Combat team based on averages, they were set by the top % high watermarks. Those watermarks are largely unchanged.

[pearl wave]

So a 4:28 solo melee zam pre beta into a 3:58.2 melee zam post beta not a good idea to showcase the difference? We can also look at raksha melee camp or even telos melee camp

[gentle turtle]

It's partly a powercreep issues but melee camp specifically stands out a bit. The floor becoming easier for level 3 players starting combat for example shouldn't have too much of an effect on how easy GM's are either

[pearl wave]

2:08 melee telos

[spare shale]

Maybe this is more a aa philosophical question: Is raising the floor "Power creep" ?

[rocky canopy]

yeah it is in a way tbh

[spare shale]

Because if so; then fair enough. You can no longer put kick on a revo bar, so the avereage melee user's dps is going to go up.

[rocky canopy]

and those numbers with melee camp is comparing to melee camp before, but it could be that style camp is becoming just as viable as brid, so it'd be more fair to compare it to the bis meta strategy

[gentle turtle]

I'd say it's more of a consequence. I don't see how the melee numbers are necessary though

[gray widget]

i think if going by that direction, you have to also ask first why we had go with the option of bridding. something was missing in the main style that made players in the top end go into the brid direction; be it complexity or lack of dps from camping a single style

[rocky canopy]

it was mostly to supplement the lack of damage after the bossting ults, and as people get more into it, the difficulty itself starts to make it more fun, so the amount of inputs and versatility in your kit

I doubt style camping would ever or should reach that amount of inputs cause then it'd be difficult for people to learn

there are some boss mechanics that do something similar like at hm kerapac or zam that decrease the amount of downtime in stylecamp, so that's probably part of the reason why people see such a big increase in melee camp as a small buff might lead to a much shorter time overall

[gentle turtle]

I think two other factors that you gotta account for is melee berserk length being longer than pre-beta (flurry change) and therefore remaining active for lengthy periods even post boss immune phases (while previously it was hard to take advantage of berserk length) and also meteor being easier to use with melee (not having to off-style grico or gconc while 0 melee armor damage) just doing more damage with melee itself overall. So it's okay to nerf melee to a point that "looks" weaker than pre-beta while it actually remains pretty strong

[rocky canopy]

yeah that's super true, zerk time is a lot longer now

[gentle turtle]

doing 0 melee armor damage if you are like using gconc to use tsunami instead or something and weak grico

[spare shale]

We could always go the PvME-advocated nuclear route and ban revo++ from instances or force a 20~30% debuf when it's on. I'm sure that'd go over well in here

[gentle turtle]

I'm not exactly against it but I feel like that needs subtle design discussions instead of keeping melee competitive and easier than the other style camps

Like there's still issues with melee and revo debate is like a different one

[faint grotto]

they aren't doing anything to revo specifically

for like, half a dozen different reasons, ranging from "revo is still worse than FM" to "Revo actually saved the game", if the numbers are too high then the numbers are too high

[nova geyser]

just add anti-afk mechanics to every boss, I don't care how easy they may or may not be

[spare shale]

This exactly

[magic delta]

why is it an issue that easier bosses can be afked?

[gentle turtle]

Economy and afk melee being same damage as manual necro is a slippery slope. People would find ways to translate that to more places (could potentially also speak about how there is not enough variety in the kit kitself)

[bronze maple]

revo isnt the problem here. its the over tuned and undertune style damages.

the emphasis is that necro is so deep in the bin right now that powercreeped styles on revo++ outdoes necro manual. The point being is that its not ok to do that at all.

we can have a discussion on the merits of revo being bad but its not the issue being pointed out by mionee

[gentle turtle]

I also usually say that what's the point of fighting a mid-level boss if you can just out-level it and afk it later. We have so many benefits in level unlocks now that afk may not even come from upgrades (but revo is a different discussion imo)

[sonic pond]

This is 100% a mainscape issue. Why fight any bosses at all when you can necro runecraft for 50m/hr for bis gear, then just only fight cat? I do agree though for mains, they need to better incentivise doing bosses at the correct level. But also thats a hard problem. Gl to the team on figuring out that one.

[gentle turtle]

One of the issues I heard brought up in other games is that this game design of being too generous on the player also screws up teamforming. If the game doesn't have heavy incentive for actually learning the boss, the game not introducing roadblocks for the player to overcome (letting them breeze past the content without being a roadblock), then the player won't improve and will also cause issues in teams especially if there is no elo or anything.

[sonic pond]

I agree, but its a problem with the fact that the game has tradeable equipment, that is not soulbound on drop, means that you can bypass any boss you want with gold. Because of that, I'm not sure there is a good way to force players to ever do a boss that they want to skip without massively redoing the drop system in, my opinion, a massively worse way.

Ironman kind of solves this by having you get your things yourself, but necro kind of lets you bypass a lot of progression that has been built up over 20 years and is something to talk about imo. It kind of forces you to learn with the Kili task, but i'm not sure that is sufficent.

[gentle turtle]

Hmm maybe. I feel like you might still wanna buy some stuff like a luck of the dwarves though. So if Vindy was less afk'd and more reason to semi-manual, you'd kinda get the cash for it there and maybe learn the boss

[magic delta]

the necro upgrade path is disgusting for an ironman. there isn't a single task that is difficult or time consuming and you get a free tier 90 set to propel you into late game. its so nonsensical and extremely unhealthy for the game long term. but gutting necro and making it feel horrible isn't the way to fix it

[sonic pond]

I agree, its a problem with adding a new combat style that needs to have close to the same tiers of upgrades as the other styles who have had 20 years of bosses to get to that tier

[gentle turtle]

Hmm what about powder of burials bones for curses, herblore training cost

[sonic pond]

I'm going to ask for some clarification on this. I'm not quite sure how this relates to the combat updates allowing you to skip bosses. As none of these things come from bosses (yes you can get a ton of bones from vendy, but there are other options).

[gentle turtle]

Just coins from selling loot to buy supplies

[sonic pond]

I guess i'm just not understanding what you are getting at. If the idea is that you use coins to bypass progression, are you suggesting that we limit coins to being from bosses only?

[gentle turtle]

Actually that was a different discussion nvm. Hmm ideally learning a boss would be best cash in progression brackets though

[jolly rain]

I dont think this is realistic with the way rs economy works. End game players will want supplies, people want supplies to come from skilling, so skilling for gp can skip a bunch of progression tiers unless you also need untradable boss drops to reach those better skilling milestone. But then we're back to untradable boss drops

[gentle turtle]

What if we do remove afk farms from Vindicta. Each Vindicta drop is worth 100m for mid-game players. Runecrafting, Heists and BGH won't pop up for awhile

[strange wedge]

huh

[jolly rain]

I think that would help, but ppl would still choose to skill and get bis or at least high end gear before starting

Better progression for those who care to engage in it tho

[strange wedge]

100m for a t85 halberd lol smh

[gentle turtle]

Hmm after the combat changes, will have to see how other players enjoy it

[brazen aurora]

I hate that for 3 or 4 days we've had non stop vague responses on how bad the state of ranged combat feels for iron because it was prematurely released prior to updates to fletching.

[strange wedge]

thats impossible tho since prices are determined by players, if a earlygame boss is great money, ppl will sweat it and prices will drop to like 10m a hour

[vital chasm]

120 magic cape perk feels weak and I feel needs to be changed. I posted something in suggestions detailing a change it think would make it better

[brazen aurora]

Honestly the 99 capes used to mean something and now they seem functionally useless.

[gentle turtle]

If they want to sweat though, there's better options

[strange wedge]

ragebait? arch 99 is great, melee 99 is good, necro 99 is strong, defense 99 is great, and theres more i cant remember

[gentle turtle]

Range probably still has a lot of power from upgrades but arrows should be cheap now. God arrow consumption is same as all other arrows now I think

[brazen aurora]

Its the fact that its still dead impossible to craft arrows as iron above 50 same with natural progression of weapons but we've shoved so many updates into a small span of time that we have no actual time to address it

They said breezy has been looking at a change for it, but he's had it since 2025 and its never been pushed through or approved. So really its just showing it isnt a priority due to the way too compacted timeline.

[vital chasm]

Doubling a hex spell timer just saves runes better for irons but you could buf rune pouches to do the same thing or make another super rune pouch or something and add it to crafting or such (kind of like bloom and blight or life and death pickaxe) and make it become untradeable once you make it. Either buff the damage that smoke cloud does or increase sunshine duration by 4-6 seconds. A person maxed out in combat should feel the power increase of being maxed not save them runes. Youre only going to crash soul runes because people are going to use less of them

[gentle turtle]

Is that the fletching retier? I think he talks about it often

[brazen aurora]

I also did 2 hours of bossing last night and spent around 800 arrows so the idea that the ammo consumption isnt felt for us is ludicrous

[quaint moat]

ANybody else having issue with Smokecloud causing disconnect?

[brazen aurora]

Thats with the relevant avas quest done and toggled.

[gentle turtle]

Hmm cape perk too?

[brazen aurora]

No cape perk but regardless that wasn't part of usage calculation for ammo consumption

Its just super clear at this point that if we dont slow down the updates we're going to lose focus on the actual restoration of runescape.

[trim dagger]

Idk so far it all seems to be going just fine with restoration

[brazen aurora]

Also ive been thinking about this recently and something that I feel like the whole restoration of runescape has completely abandoned that matters alot. If everything in this game isnt designed as if your Ironman, is it really designed correctly for the game? I mean think about it. The game is suppose to have skills bounce off each other so that your encouraged to make strides in a balanced way so doesnt it go against the grain to not balance it in a way where players can be 100% self sufficient if they choose to be

[gentle turtle]

The content triangle does have merit to it yeah

[vital chasm]

The game is meant to be fun. The game shouldn't be built as if its a single player game.

[brazen aurora]

I mean this respectfully but its very clear you are white knighting if you haven't noticed smokebomb disconnects kerapac boss arena disappearing, aura malfunctions, ui getting locked up. I could go on. I appreciate the attempts regardless.

[brazen aurora]

It shouldnt be designed so you are forced to buy off the GE is my point. You should naturally have a way to do everything solo realistically.

[gentle turtle]

There's a decent amount of rushing going on like with the beta not addressing every complexity point right away and like Varrock roof undersides being missing but they do be trying

[brazen aurora]

I can agree with that

[strange wedge]

those are ngl minor? vuln bomb dc is only if you anticipate and smoke cloud and vuln bomb at the same time

and the aura stuff was fixed

[brazen aurora]

My point being is the game should be designed for Ironman first as if you think about it, that essentially would fix the issues entirely with all other forms of level progression in general.

[trim dagger]

Xd

[vital chasm]

No one forces you to buy off the GE normal accounts can choose not to buy things from other players. Adding everything to a shop makes it so no one can earn anything and destroyed the early game economy. Half the fun of runescape is playing with your boys and getting carried at harder content and getting a fat drop an progressing the game the way you want to.

[gentle turtle]

I know this reference, I gotta find the picture

[brazen aurora]

I think your missing the point why do you assume being designed from an Ironman standpoint means adding shop items. Thats the exactly opposite of my proposal

[spice crater]

Just want to say-I’m extremely happy with the update. Incredibly well thought out and intuitive. Awesome job. Only frustration was day 1 specific ammo things. Since then I’ve been enjoying everything the update has to offer. Lvl 50 magic on iron and getting to theory craft like I would on my main. Fun stuff

[gentle turtle]

I think he means this. Like skilling questing pvm

[vital chasm]

Alright so everything is made from scratch then. I dont want to play like that. If I did I would have made an Ironman. Content should be made to have fun and not be tedious.

[brazen aurora]

You still are missing the point again

[vital chasm]

I shouldn't feel like I HAVE to do something in order to play the game

[faint grotto]

I think you're missing something though... the thing that makes a player economy work IS when some things are just flat annoying/hard/tedious/inconvenient

[brazen aurora]

Still missing the point friend, this would leave you unaffected if you are a normal player

[vital chasm]

You said make all content as if youre an ironman.

[brazen aurora]

Thats a thought ive gone over for awhile and something I feel like would incentivize this would be allowing skill based selling caps on the GE

[rocky canopy]

designed like if it were for irons doesn't mean that players are forced to play like irons

[brazen aurora]

Thats not what I said. I said design all systems as if you are Ironman for skilling.

[vital chasm]

Maybe give me an example because my brain isn't braining

[rocky canopy]

I think that's ok, decent progression system, and mains can still skip content they don't find as fun

just a decent progression system lmao

[spice crater]

Doing 2 hours of fletching so you can do 2 hours of ranged pvm.

[brazen aurora]

For example. If I hit 50 range. I should be able to hit 50 fletching and make a bow and arrows since that's the point right? 60 melee is should be able to use 60 smithing to make my next set of gear. Tiered tied skill progression.

[spice crater]

Pretty sure this is coming

[brazen aurora]

Thats not how it is right now for alot of skills. 60 herbivores should allow for 60 farming to plant the herbs needed for it in some compacity

Skills were designed to work in tandem and they dont thats the issue.

[vital chasm]

I feel like the majority of skills this is already the case. Most of the outdated content just needs to be brought back into the game. All of the new 110 updates seem to be doing this so it seems like the devs understand that

[brazen aurora]

I hate to say it but knowing we've had fletching set aside and basically completed since 2025 means it should of been released prior knowing how it effects ranged.

[brazen aurora]

Give me 3 examples of skills this works with past 60

[vital chasm]

Mining fletching crafting woodcutting smithing 100-110

[rocky canopy]

I think we've got a lot bigger issues than that lmao like how necro progression for irons is a lot more efficient than any other style

[pearl wave]

I do love needing level 95 fletching to make dark arrows for my dark bow

[brazen aurora]

You didnt provide any examples. None of those skills work in tandem and you cant use 100+ skills levels as an example of skill sync as that defeats the purpose.

Smithing and minning do work because of their update so far as ive tested. But the rest of those do not

[spice crater]

That’s exactly what he’s saying. Fletching should match ranging, runecrafting should match magic. Should necro have augmentable power gear at lvl 70+? Maybe, give it to the other styles too.

[brazen aurora]

Exactly. Thank you. Combat modernization should of update their intended skill sync

[vital chasm]

Right but what im saying is those skills work in tandem. The devs know how to make content that works with each other. Old content needs to be worked on or removed and replaced with content that works. It seems the devs see that vision

[spice crater]

Also exactly what he’s saying.

[vital chasm]

I use the 110 skills as examples because theyre the most recent updates

[rocky canopy]

makes sense, +1 support

[brazen aurora]

But you also still didnt provide examples point to the fact you cant due to either inexperience or you cant think of any. I can tell you we have alot of skills out of sync and combat should of updated runecrsfting and fletching prior to changing ammo

[spice crater]

It should be part of the content released in the year of integrity. But it doesn’t seem like it will be. Which is kinda frustrating. I get it

[brazen aurora]

We shouldn't have 90 different updates fractured through the year that essentially won't address the entire issue runecape 3 has been losing popularity. The fact that no time was left to monitor updates as they happened is what is really eating at this.

[vital chasm]

The problem with 60+skills most of the gear comes from bossing. You get better runes to cast better spells with magic that requires runecrafting to make and magic to cast. Arrows require WC fletching and firemaking once you hit din arrows and then you have to imbued them with anima from bosses. Its hard to balance content in that level range. Specifically with ranged making a new fletchable arrow every 10 levels would be tedious

Now you need a new tree every 10 levels

[brazen aurora]

You understand what your saying is, you'd rather not have the option at all than have the option if you wanted it

We already have a new tree every 10 levels

[vital chasm]

Most of the fun I have playing this game is bossing and not chopping logs so yes I do understand that

[gentle turtle]

The god wars 3 nerf prooobably helped skilling

[brazen aurora]

I hope we get an actual formal response of exactly when fletching will fixed and preferably moved up due to the unpopular feedback reddit has had about it / here

[gentle turtle]

I am surprised 110 fletching isn't in the content roadmap to be fair ye

[quick notch]

110 fletching is in the game

You need 110 to make the masterwork bow

[gentle turtle]

Ooh hmm, I guess the retier is different then

[quick notch]

Yes the retier is coming. Its most likely coming under the sections on the roadmap for remastered content

[brazen aurora]

Yes it needs to be very soon like the next 2 months soon since we already have the fletching retier blueprints drawn out and how bad the reception of ammo/crafting ammo is

[steel verge]

Reteir is making things like the t60 elder shortbow into a lvl 90 bow and putting another wood type in that lvl 60 bracket Right now its 90+ to make a lvl 60 bow

[proven bough]

As well as adding ammunition for the new metals

[brazen aurora]

95+ for all arrows above 50 too

[proven bough]

E.g banite at level 80. Which the mid game desperately needs

[steel verge]

yeeeah. Thats so damn rough

[brazen aurora]

I wish I could go back in time and talk to wheoever made that a thing and understand the reason because I cannot fathom why we did it.

[steel verge]

It was a diffrent time. When lvl 60 gear was end game and they needed content for higher lvls

[proven bough]

Old times, nobody expected it to become a problem, or for irons to really take off, too

But yeah it’s basically still just the “I need a higher smithing level to make a rune dagger than I do a godsword” problem 😅

[brazen aurora]

Yep it's definitely the biggest issue now that the combat rework is out. Every Ironman player basically say dont touch range / forget it exists prior to the update and now they won't even gear it.

[proven bough]

It’s been solid so far where I’m at in the mid game, apart from ammo

[brazen aurora]

What level are you and are you Ironman? Range level?

[gentle turtle]

I'm peeersonally switching from melee to range on iron, godarrows better now I think and looks fun

[brazen aurora]

What level fletching and ranged are you

[gentle turtle]

Like 95 and 99

[brazen aurora]

Yea you won't have an issue then as long as you've basically maxed it you'll be fine.

[gentle turtle]

Did broad bolts shop runs for like a week or two and used chins

I think range aoe is now locked behind corruption shot tho

[brazen aurora]

It definitely wasn't a week or two. The calculation for fletching is about 800,000 broad arrows unless you were already pretty high

I believe its about 47 million gold for it aswell.

[gentle turtle]

I think I used the fletching workbench too and I forgot what cash method I used, might've been Zuk Jad farming

[brazen aurora]

Yea that's crazy work for a gap between level 50 to 99

[gentle turtle]

Shop runs proooobably shouldn't be a meta method ye

[proven bough]

2300 total, 90 ranged, gim yes

[brazen aurora]

Even shop runs level range damage to level 50 with no ammo to change it

[proven bough]

Why did the reply stop REEEE

[brazen aurora]

All good. What's your fletching level at

[proven bough]

Sorry, had a doctor appointment. Only 74

The ammo is the rough part, still, but the kit feels better where I’m at than before the update

[uncut torrent]

there's kind of a void between 40-ish, when ammo stops being buyable from shops, and 70 when you can just use easily-accessible chargebows until endgame (when it's improved)

[proven bough]

I can do more with weaker ammo than before, I feel

[uncut torrent]

I guess when I say 'endgame' I mean 'rax' which I think drops enough araxyte arrows to sustain until the player gets access to dinarrows

[brazen aurora]

It used to

[uncut torrent]

so assuming you go on-rate for a nox bow with the isntance set up to target the web, you'll have 19.2k araxyte arrows on average. I don't really see an issue with the idea that that will do you until 95 fletching (or alternatively give you a reason to go back and get the other rax weapons)

[brazen aurora]

So what arrows are you using while killing rax in your calculations? Broad?

[uncut torrent]

using a sunspear

[brazen aurora]

And the requirements for sunspear friend?

[umbral gulch]

Finally managed to try all 3 styles, and must say, that now magic and ranged do feel a bit quicker and smoother.
With ranged, sometimes the arrows drop in a weird places though. Wish they were auto pick-ups.
But I feel like, there's something wrong with the mobs' marking. If they're not properly marked, the character just keeps following the mob without attacking.
As for melee, it's also quicker, but the auto-regen after a fight is so poor. Especially when you're fighting a stronger monster.

[uncut torrent]

river of blood, which every iron will want to get anyway

[brazen aurora]

No no how about you tell us river of bloods skill requirements and quest requirements

[faint grotto]

River of Blood's Fletching req is 75 btw

[uncut torrent]

I'm aware it's an endgame quest with e.g. an 80 herb req iirc (I don't remember specifically as I've not done the quest since my CGIM last year)

[faint grotto]

Branches of Darkmeyer is 70 Fletching and then you can make Blisterwood stuff

[brazen aurora]

Thats my point so that's not a solution.

[uncut torrent]

why? you have a vanquish until then

[brazen aurora]

How many quests points do you need for vanquish friend

[faint grotto]

150 is not a lot

[brazen aurora]

So a little over a third of all runescapes quests need to be completed.

[uncut torrent]

you can't expect people to take you seriously while also implying 150 quest points is an unreasonably high requirement for a t75 weapon

[faint grotto]

pretty sure you can get all of those pre-50 combats

[brazen aurora]

What's the requirement for level 60 melee gear and weapon?

The answer is. Nothing. The requirement is smithing 60 and mining 60.

[uncut torrent]

does your point boil down to the idea that range (and presumably magic) gearing should be as quick and easy as melee and necromancy? because I think the more realistic take is that melee/necro gear are far too easy

[faint grotto]

depends on the gear and weapon, really, Magic is the actual outlier here, because Lunar Diplo gives you a full set of power armor and weapon at t65

[uncut torrent]

personally I've always had 150qp before 60mining/smithing on every iron account btw but I don't think pathing is a big deal here

[brazen aurora]

No id say necromancer is actually more tough after 70 and magic is sorta in a weird spot
My point is by far the work for at tier range is higher than anything else if you want to use normal equipment

[faint grotto]

And you know, if you wanted to suggest that Melee and Ranged should have T65 quest unlocked power armor and weapon... that seems like an idea, especially with Necro being Necro

[uncut torrent]

I agree that t50 and t60 range specifically need addressing

[brazen aurora]

Honestly only the arrow situation really

Thats what this boils down to. Everything else can be dealt with if we have the proper arrows. But I shouldn't need 95 fletching for that.

[faint grotto]

Rune Arrows are 75 fletching

[brazen aurora]

Because as you may or may not know. If you use level 50 arrows with a level 80 bow. It deals level 50 damage.

[pearl wave]

@agile phoenix Apologies for the ping, figured it was best to move convo here since its an aura channel where we were

And where should necro sit in comparison? 550k? I'd argue necro rotations at the very top end are harder to pull off than a mage tumeken rot - so how much value do we put into all these things? Is the basis that necro should be weaker because its cheaper to get into compared to the other styles? You cant really use sustain cause now melee has strong built in sustain

[brazen aurora]

What tier is rune friend. Then when do you unlock tier 60?

[faint grotto]

it's a bit weird that T70 is like "hey, chargebows" and then T80 is like "fight exactly this one boss" but fixing that is probably a bigger project

[uncut torrent]

yeah - ultimately I think all I'm saying is that it needs addressing in the grand scheme of things but breezy's fletching retier is coming out later this year (I think) and tha'ts a fine timescale imo

actually - one interim fix - increase shop stock of rune arrows to 500 or something. Nobody will ever buy them except irons and it solves the problem of another 10 tiers (I think there's a combined stock of 25 across all shops atm)

[brazen aurora]

This won't fix the issue because rune will force you to be stuck at level 50 damage for all those progression levels

[faint grotto]

...you could use crossbows

[steel verge]

I think upping the number of arrowheads/shafts per bar/log wouldent be a bad idea.
People idealy should still have to train skills to get ammo. But ranged is a unique case since you need mining+smithing for arrowheads. Then fletching+woodcutting for a good number of shafts and putting the ammo together.

[uncut torrent]

I mean it's specifically tier 60 we're talking about at that point, the problem is fixed at level 70 with the crystal bow

[steel verge]

Wher as with something like runecrafting you only need runecrafting. And maby mining or theiving to get the essence

[neat mist]

So u guys liking the update?

[faint grotto]

ok, so, T60 Elder Shortbow uses Dragon Arrows... so you can get those from kingly or dragon implings, or you cna make them from arrowheads, that you get from... kingly or dragon implings, master clues, risen ghosts, the legio bosses, telos, muspahs, nightmares, acheron mammoths, T1-2 Elder Troves, really, the barrier here isn't actually "you need silly fletching" it's "who the heck on this list is dying with T50 weapons?"

[quick notch]

Si

[faint grotto]

really it's kind just, 60 ranged mostly doesn't actually exist coherently

[agile phoenix]

Before i continue to answer i need more clarity. I guess my question is what is it that you consider harder to do at high end for necro?

[pearl wave]

We can just use input/skill expression as the consideration - necro outclasses mage with full bis gear in a rotation. Can't really use variance as a reason for mage to be more difficult because 1. You dont have issue with mage adren at top end so rots dont really change and 2. Quite a lot of your rot is channels

My point is: Necro has had reasoning as to why it should be weaker: Accessibility/Input/skill expression/sustain. After this update, this doesnt hold as true anymore

So my issue is, since necro doesnt solely have these issues going for them now, why should necro stay the same, but other styles get stronger

[faint grotto]

hey wanna know something funny? Dragon Arrow Alch value is just barely ~100ish gp short of outpacing their GE price by the cost of a nat

[uncut torrent]

exactly - before the elder shortbow dropped from flesh boss, the best option was to use tokkul to buy the rings and be very very very fucking careful to make sure you didn't auto-attack with them, but obby rings are just completely unrealistic now unless something specific has been done about them (in respect of which, much as I appreciate jagex, lmao at the thought)

[faint grotto]

the problem is kinda... inherited from Pre-EOC

[uncut torrent]

actually it was probably just salamanders, ignore me - I think I am remembering range progression on my taskman

[faint grotto]

where Crystal Bow got made at 70 range and then there was no backfill for the spot in between it and MSB and Rune Arrows and "Chargebow time"

and then M&S rework happpened and demonstrated that properly FIXING that sort of thing is really REALLY hard to make happen without killing the game in the process

[agile phoenix]

I agree the changes in adrenaline are extremely powerful for magic at the moment. Being able to sunshine at nearly 60% adrenaline, tsunami, and fsoa is a lot quicker. I forsee greater sonic wave and or runic charged to be nerfed in the near future. The magic rotation revolves around asphyx in sunshine 2x. tendrils is kinda dead and more so a filler, back to 2 tick usage.

Maybe the change for necro needs to take a new direction to work more with souls and necrosis stacks. Increase the stacks earned on touch of death and lower the cool down so finger of death is used more frequently. Further boost the finger of death damage inside a living death to maybe 2x or more. But I personally think necro should sit around 650k dpm

[faint grotto]

if Havenhythe goes well maybe we'll see more low-mid level content to fix things like "T60 ranged mostly doesn't actually exist" and "theres a T75 Cbow with no ammo"

[pearl wave]

I do miss the days when actually having to worry about adren and make good decisions for it was a thing for mage but here we are!

I definitely want necros skill ceiling to increase that does allow more dmg from skill expression, not just a flat base dmg buff. I can agree with the 650k yeah, as long as that doesnt include the 0tick roar swap 😭

In a perfect world, t95s were t92s on release, omni/dev guard were created differently, conjures had more ways to engage with them, etc

oh and ghost was nerfed

[agile phoenix]

Agreed book swaps and 0 tick swap are about as good as it gets for necro skill expression. But I think in the eyes of jagex it was meant to be introductory and engage the player base and if you wanted to further that expression. Then you push for another combat style. Necro has been out long enough I can agree it would be time to update the skill expression to something a little more advanced. And with the buff of reducing skulls from 12 to 10 seconds.... Not to mention the loss of limitless for nearly all other combat styles because adrenaline management isnt an issue.

Maybe one day that can be introduced if there ever is a necro 2h weapon.

[brazen aurora]

How about you look at the level requirement for those friend

[hearty sequoia]

in light of the recent combat style updates, can we update the action bar binding for ranged/mage so we can save 2 extra slots

[brazen aurora]

I think you have a very narrow view of what you think is realistic. Why dont you go compare those requirements for those activities. I think you are being entirely unreasonable.

[faint grotto]

having fought most of the things on the list, none of them are remotely reasonable with T50's, if you wanna rely on Bik Troves you are either doing mass Croesus or working iwth 88+'s, Dragon Implings need 85 Hunter and Kingly's are 90, Acheron Mammoths are 96 Slayer, Risen Ghosts are 85 Slayer even if you think you can do them reasonably, Muspah's need Fate of the Gods, Nightmares need Children of Mah and eighty slayer, and the Legio's are a key boss, that also need 95 slayer, the 90 fletching to make the arrows is unironically on the low end of the requirements here

[pearl wave]

What exactly was unreasonable with what Ethorin said though?

[uncut torrent]

+1 I understood ethorin to mean access to dragon arrows was unreasonable because it was locked in them being very strong pre-eoc

[faint grotto]

note, Dark Arrows and Seeker Arrows have an effective requirement of 90 slayer for Dark Beasts... but Dark Beasts and Seekers are both weaker than Risen Ghosts.

[brazen aurora]

I miss interpreted this. My bad.

Yea rereading you went from disagree to agreeing on something so it was like that episode of bugs bunny where he goes "duck season fire!"

[faint grotto]

if the fletching retier doesn't use the smithing metals, I'd honestly expect dragon to go up because the arrowheads are hilariously hard to get ahold of and adjusting dark beasts and seekers to be appropriate for T60-70 arrows is probably easier than trying to drag dragon arrowtips down... but maybe they'd be ok completely reshaping where dragon arrowtips come from to maintain "dragon is T60"

[brazen aurora]

Yea I mean its fine how they do it aslong as they add a path to fix it.

So I was looking at Decimation because I was like "oh this could be actually do able as a easier fix" Yeaaa no.

Maybe if you have gargoyl mask possibly. but i dont think iron can get that now.

[haughty rampart]

Shattered Worlds but you're probably better off spending your time elsewhere.

[brazen aurora]

This was a talk about how to get ammo not level range, side note.

[proven bough]

I’m a firm believer that dark beasts should be lowered to be more appropriate to the dark bow levels, and a dark beast slayer boss should take its level 90 place.

[brazen aurora]

Honestly it sucks to say but I don't think our feedback about ammo is really making a dent considering how bad its been the last couple of days and they haven't just fixed Ava's to temporarily pick up all ammo while they look into it

[somber knot]

When I alt tab back into the game after 14.5 minutes I should be alive and the boss should be dead. Why can't Jagex just let me have fun?

[trim dagger]

Such bandaids are bad to go for so ofcourse they didn't just do tbat temporarily

[crystal hedge]

What are we arguing here?

[somber knot]

i’m just being a little silly :3

[crystal hedge]

Fair enough

[brazen aurora]

Doing nothing is worse.

[stark brook]

Any word on rebalancing combat so it's not stupidly overpowered? Or are we just leaving it like this

[spare shale]

What's overpowered fam?

They raised the floor and kept the ceiling largely in-tact.

[stark brook]

All styles except necromancy? Have you seen any videos since the change? People are getting WRs with unoptimized rotations left and right.

Oh you're trolling. Or you just like the new overpowered everything and don't want it fixed. Got it =P

One example among many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvnVA7UwoZc

Since it's not previewing, that's a solo GM zamorak beating timer by almost 20 seconds.

Solo. It may have been done solo before the update, if so I am not aware of it. I guess I don't know where you're at in the game, maybe not very far if you think people put stuns on revo bars and expect to pvm effectively.

And I think you meant that to sound small, a 6% save on a GM timer that's extremely tight is... insanely huge.

[pearl wave]

5:18 solo is the best I have seen and that was last year

[stark brook]

Thanks - yeah that's obscene - or was =P that's one of the hardest timers (or so I've heard, since I don't have it). It practically requires a team due to how Zamorak works. To be able to do it solo is far more difficult than even the team timer.

[pearl wave]

Melee is def pushing some crazy timers after changes - it will be interesting how they handle changes if any

[stark brook]

I really hope they do. I like melee, I want it to be a strong style, but this is just ridiculous. I've used ranged a bit myself at some really low level stuff like matriarchs, and it's obscenely faster than it ever was before with the exact same gear, so I think it's not just melee, but melee might be the worst offender right now.

[pearl wave]

I think I saw a 452 m/m brid which is comical (solo)

Yeah melee is a bit overtuned but unfortunately thats the outcome when you just giga buff the entire kit

[steel verge]

Mele feels good to me. Like where its at.
The 9 sec overpower might be a bit much tho

The heal on the bleed could be toned down some as well
Other than that i like where it is

[stark brook]

This is literally years worth of powercreep in one update o.O

[river grove]

I feel like the heal isn't that strong. It wasn't enough to sustain me on a bound skeleton slayer task earlier, so had to add vamp' on top of it (which will be lost soon - well, lost as a freebie - the alternatives likely won't be)

[steel verge]

Problem there is on such a task monsters will die before the full bleed damage is done. Meaning you lose 80% of the healing

Against bosses its much better since the bleeds can do there full damage
Unless overwritten by another person that is

[faint grotto]

there's a blog about it!

[river grove]

Oh nice! I just woke up and haven't checked the blog yet 😆

[stark brook]

New aspects. Pretty good solution imo.

[river grove]

It's pretty nice but my inventory aches at the idea of needing 4 flavours of runes 🙈

[mellow storm]

Good thing we have grasping pouches and nexuses for that

[river grove]

Can't pouches hold 2 kinds of runes, so would still need 2-3 of them? I guess back to the abyss for me.

[steel verge]

3 for large, 4 for grasping

[river grove]

Oh it's a boss drop on top of needing thread x.x Alright.

[crystal hedge]

a non-solo boss no less

[steel verge]

Theres almost always a mass going on the mass world. And the flakes are fairly common

[river grove]

Kinda off topic- but is it the kind of boss where you can mess someone else up like vorago's reflect or aod's bombs?

[dry cairn]

If you read the update page or at all, you'd see that Jagex is keeping an eye on necro and will buff accordingly on Monday or very soon.

The other styles are much more fluid and the massive increase in damage is because we have 120 in those styles so it scales accordingly.

Even so, Necro should not be 100% on par with the other styles because it's designed to be cheap and user-friendly. The drop rates for t95 are nothing compared to the other styles. (Sanctum wands are the exception.)

At the end of the day, just stay Necro if you can't afford to commit to another style. You knew these changes were coming, you had time to prepare. It's not everyone else's fault that you didn't prepare or save up your money.

[gentle turtle]

120 increase is an offender but it's mostly like a 5% buff due to aura removal at the same time. Even if it was a big buff, that wouldn't mean it's good. The gameplay and even the styles kits themselves are just out of proportion

[harsh tartan]

I wouldnt call the buffs unnecessry, the whole idea was to stabilize each style by themselves, i always said if that was the case they should allow style camping to do close to pre beta did on hybrid and i think they nailed it

[gentle turtle]

Power wise I disagree. For one, melee specifically stands out as a style that gained a massive buff compared to the others, while camping the other styles is reasonable in comparsion. When looking at style balancing, melee being the easiest and basically the strongest, there is something wrong there. The other problem is the powercreep line. If we reach a point where our current set of bosses are falling over too easily, then there is an issue of power being overtuned across the board. It is at a point where style camping did get a buff yes (and melee went too far) but hybrid also got a buff, which pushes power over a reasonable threshold.

[dry cairn]

Jagex even said that if you're up close with melee, you deserve to hit harder. We deal with more mechanics and random melee hits from the bosses.

At Nakatra HM for example; you have very little time to react before telegraph. In that time and dps you lose running around, it makes sense to hit harder to make up for that lost time.

[split tartan]

I think having a nice necromancy top up on monday would probably be fine and then maybe a rebalance again of things during the middle or end game rebalance. Considering there's like weekly updates and limited devs it's probably good enough for something else to be worked on now. For myself I don't really see the need for one style to be too much weaker than the other. The arguments I hear for necro could also apply to melee (you can just smith) or magic (the new robes) so just letting people choose whatever they want may attract more people. Just thinking from a rs3 could use more new players perspective. Also again combat academy or something

[gentle turtle]

As someone who has been a melee main for awhile, I just haven't noticed this aspect of difficulty. I think magic has more tradeoffs

Hybrid power going too far isn't the only issue either. There is another line of how easy style camping pushes over bosses and how much powercreep takes that too far

That is like a triple combo in things going off balance. Powercreep, style camp, easiest style, bosses can't match the player

[harsh tartan]

Anyone know if stslling still requires to stay in combat? Or was that chsnged

Inthought i read something about it

[gentle turtle]

I think you still have to be in combat

[real dock]

Yes, you still have to be in combat

[stark brook]

You've missed my point entirely I think. I have no issue with necro... I got the relevant master timers done ahead of time(rasial, nex, Zuk being the main ones I was concerned about). My issue is with the insane power spikes on the other three that trivialize master and even gm timers.

[jovial wyvern]

Can we please take another look at the ammo issue? The harralander tar consumption to use black salamanders is completely obscene right now, so are irons going to have to do crystal bows for early invention?

[brisk copper]

is ghost damage in necro still bugged? I heard that mondays update nerfed it badly

I think the tar fix is coming monday they said

[stark brook]

I noticed essentially no difference in necro between my push to 970 zamorak pre update and the last 3 to 1k post update. The primary difference was the loss of auras, and I was not using them because of that.

[raven fractal]

Tar is a known issue, fix next week ^^

[jovial wyvern]

thank goodness

[stark brook]

Any word on reining in the massive power spikes of melee mage range? Or is that still a topic of consideration rather than action? Or is it not even being considered?

[gentle turtle]

I think everyone knows that nerfs are needed, even if they don't say it

[brazen aurora]

No updated news today?

[rocky canopy]

People on Reddit just don’t believe that it’s possible to nerf endgame without also nerfing midgame

[inner pulsar]

People on Reddit have always just brigaded and ignored logic, nothing new

[sleek heath]

I don't think you been doing much combat if you think Manual Melee is first ahead of Magic...

[gentle turtle]

Well I'd say they are equal but considering secondary factors (melee being easier than magic) then I'd say melee is first yes

[sleek heath]

Melee easier than Magic... So you do have no idea what you are talking about...

[gentle turtle]

Melee has no risk and no rng in rotations while magic has to deal with that while being locked to standing inside sunshine and using channels all the time

[pearl wave]

I'd say they are similar for different reasons

[sleek heath]

Melee no risk. Tell me you never used a style outside of maybe brid without saying you never used the style.

Magic being locked in place, while being able to stand outside the range of any mechanics is no drawback at all.

[gentle turtle]

I'm a melee main and you'll notice how limited mage is when you use it at Sanctum

[pearl wave]

Imagine thinking being locked in a set place isnt limiting

[sleek heath]

Both styles are very easy ATM.

Melee with Overpower on 9s CD, and Magic with essentially unlimited adrenaline. But saying melee is generally easier than magic, considering the general gameplay, and how certain bosses work, is just a wild take.

[pearl wave]

I mean you can argue both are easier in their own ways - id say you both are right in a sense

[gentle turtle]

Magic basically became harder due to losing meta as well, though the damage is about the same

[pearl wave]

You arent ever going to find common ground between meleers and magers arguing which is easier

[sleek heath]

Uhuh, I am sure Magic needs to Blade and Barge out and back in of the boss during mechanics...

[gentle turtle]

I've done that and found it not noticable enough to balance the style around it

[pearl wave]

Another point is are we solely focusing end game styles? Or just manual in general

[sleek heath]

I can only thank god you are not in charge of balancing then.

[pearl wave]

Cause if its manual in general, melees kit it easier to use

Yall can keep going in circles adding different parameters to the arguments

[gentle turtle]

Then we can leave it to the pros to decide if magic or melee is harder and look at the data. I have not seen proof for melee personally

[sleek heath]

Should be just manual in general.

Of course nothing matters at the total endgame when you have mastered the game and never see boss do anything since you push it in one ult.

[pearl wave]

Then melee is easier due to its kit

But if you start saying well this boss that boss or end game with all tools etc etc - yall will go in circles

[sleek heath]

There are bosses that literally force you to get off of them, if you can't kill them in seconds.

A lot of bosses punish you for being in melee, because they have a separate melee attack they use, which is usually significantly stronger, as if you are not meant to be in melee distance with them.

Melee ult and armor literally makes you take extra damage. While Magic has been the safest style around for years

[gentle turtle]

Another data point is that melee being able to do the most damage in revolution contributes to the idea that melee rotations are too simple

[sleek heath]

Magic is literally the first style recommended by people when you start the game (outside of Necro recently I guess)

[pearl wave]

Not anymore lol

[rocky canopy]

Melee rotations are just op op op ezk flurry op, but they deal with mechanics that suck against melee

[sleek heath]

And magic rotation is just Gconc -> Threshold

[pearl wave]

And melee rotation is hit buttons - win

[gentle turtle]

The extra damage taken was removed. You use ezk at the start which is meta + darkness and you are taking 0 extra damage before berserking

[pearl wave]

Melees kit is incredibly strong now, and simple to use

[rocky canopy]

Yeah it’s not clear cut

[sleek heath]

Yeah, because Magic kit is so complex.

Use Tsunami, Use Sun, Use FSOA -> Do Gconc + big ability on repeat.

[gentle turtle]

Same damage as before you berserked*

[sleek heath]

Extra damage taken was removed. Ok, so you did not even touch the style, and you have no idea what changed, got it, "melee main"

[rocky canopy]

You also got runic which I sometimes use on gconc or even dbreath situationally, and then also roar spec

[gentle turtle]

If we are talking realistically, it was removed yes.

We are heading back to Necro release days, where the style with the least trade-offs and most damage is meta if there are no nerfs

[sleek heath]

Least trade offs, jesus, this is the kind of players magic attracts...

[rocky canopy]

Lmao

Bro just wants melee to be buffed

[pearl wave]

I mean its why most people in pvme arent really talking about melees power

[gentle turtle]

To clarify, the extra damage taken is removed because of ezk because 12% less damage taken + darkness.

Range is rooted to place (and deals low damage for some reason). Mage is rooted to place and boss mechanics will make you lose damage if you cancel gconc/asphyx/tendrils + dealing with rng, even Necro is low damage and low adren gain + it's a Devouerer's Nexus kinda risk aid style these days. Those are the tradeoffs while melee moves around and does whatever

[sleek heath]

The only correct thing you have said so far was the Necro part. Everything else is coming from a player that has no idea what he is talking about.

[gentle turtle]

I mean Mod Sponge has stated that mage being rooted to place is a purposeful restriction

[pearl wave]

Everything Decryl said was right though?

[strange wedge]

darkness is bad…
it can block reso and divert, either killing you or mess up rotations

[gentle turtle]

At that point the damage taken wouldn't be noticable anyway

[topaz rock]

People use reso to intentionally heal after letting their health get low

[pearl wave]

People act like melee is finally getting fed as if it wasn't very strong pre-beta

[gentle turtle]

The way I see it is that the melee that deserved to be buffed isn't the same melee that we have now

All the risk reward stuff

[sleek heath]

His comment about Range doing low damage - Range does good damage, the problem with Range is that it needs TWICE the effort of Melee/Magic and it ends up still SLIGHTLY behind. It does not do "low damage"

Mage being rooted in place is rarely a drawback and comes down to bad positioning, you can literally pick spots where nothing will ever bother you, or you will not have to move outside your Sun ever. Magic being RNG is a cope and it's been proven numerous times that you can pull off top rotation with minimal to no variance.
TA RNG will never ruin your rotation, it will just sometimes just propel your DPM to the moon. Magic has so much Crit that it's a non factor.

[pearl wave]

Slightly behind?

[gentle turtle]

If mage being rooted wasn't a drawback then people wouldn't have been upset about meta removal

[pearl wave]

Nah you lost the plot lol

[gentle turtle]

There's still the extra damage from meta + bleeds but yeah it's definitely a factor

[pearl wave]

I wouldnt even bother engaging with them if they wanna keep double downing on bad faith arguments tbh - kinda weird

[sleek heath]

People are literally doing 1:10 Rakshas with Range camp? Which is similar to what they are doing with Melee?

Notice I said CAMP not Brid.

[gentle turtle]

I mean like mage has a skill ceiling with rng and it's equal to melee which doesn't have much of a skill ceiling but yeah I dunno what else to say 🤷‍♂️

[sleek heath]

Again with the RNG cope. Yeah, being able to bring your Crit up to near 100% consistently sure is a lot of RNG...

[gentle turtle]

Accounting for temporal annomaly and Sanctum spec

[wise olive]

Its all kinda easy scape now not much skill left to it

[sleek heath]

Those have no bearing on Mage rotation? Except being a nice bonus. People are doing 800k Suns with no TA at all.

TA can bring your DPM to a ridiculous degree, it never ruins it. If you are playing your rotation with sole hope of TA procs, you have bigger issues brother...

[gentle turtle]

TA is pretty frequent, especially with Tumeken's

[safe grove]

Mid game ranged is awesome now, but everyone says that late game is bad. Why is that? Too many switches?

[gentle turtle]

Low damage I think. Some people say too many buffs. Maybe it would be fine if it was high damage regardless of the buffs. Ecb duration too short too

[sleek heath]

Too much to do/juggle to be optimal. And if you compare optimal Magic/Melee to optimal Range, you are still gonna be few seconds slower, depending on the boss.

[gentle turtle]

One of the rotations I found had 3 casts of ecb

[safe grove]

How do you keep your health with ECB spec up? For me ranged is missing sustain, but it seems it gets even worse later on

[sleek heath]

If you can't sustain ECB, you stop pressing ECB. Range has a ton of sustain due to the way it interact with Soul Split, before that, it's gonna be food to mouth.

[gentle turtle]

Powercreep gets worse too, so sometimes you don't think too much about it

[sleek heath]

ECB is a risk you choose to take.

Also, somebody in PvMe did the math, and realistically ECB is like, 5% better than just spending your adrenaline on something else.

[olive valve]

Once the balancing is done the very next “upgrade” release is going to break that balance. I think most things are in a good spot at the moment and theres room for future content to address some minor issues.

[gentle turtle]

After a few nerfs I wouldn't mind if the next content release does something interesting for the styles, does something more intricate with all the new systems

[steel verge]

Mage and ranged need some work.
Mele is a little overtuned id say.
maby drop the bleed heal down to 6%, 8 with cape. And increase zerk overpower cooldown from 9 to 12 sec
Should bring things a bit more in line

[jolly rain]

I think i saw ppl saying normals with zealots was better for range even tho you lose ecb so i believe it

[crude summit]

As far as I'm concerned most of the bosses are based on the presumption a player's limit is 99 in combat, without boosts (barring necromancy); so most of the surrounding talks on "powercreep" relating to the combat refresh are in large part because of a combination of factors being roped into the one change that players feel actionable to nerf without affecting themselves as directly.

[sleek heath]

Yeah, people are trying it out. ECB is not that big of a deal. It used to be, but not anymore.

[sleek heath]

People really see Magic be 50k to 75k DPM ahead of melee on anything that can't be bursted down and are saying "magic needs some work, only melee needs nerfs"

[steel verge]

Ive not seen magic doing that.
Im experienced with mele.
Im judging things based on my experiences.
Thats normal for people to do.

[crude summit]

The whole point of melee's identity shift was to make it do more damage than the other styles at the cost of having much higher risk, and vastly inferior range, just as it once had—going from 120s to 145s with ovls + perk changes are as responsible for the "powercreep" as the refresh, these observed power changes are multivariate. Bosses should not scale around having base 120s and best in slot gear, they should scale at the gear you're meant to engage that content with. It's completely backwards to suggest the scaling of bosses should assume you have best in slot gear and best in slot perks before doing something like Amby/Raksha.

[steel verge]

Hmm. yeah i guess ive not thought about it like that.

[gentle turtle]

I'm not sure what this means. Like the game should have an endgame. Also the theme of melee is very work-in-progress

[inner pulsar]

Tbf, all bosses will be quite doable as an iron

Its cool for 4k enrage to require bis

[brazen aurora]

Let's hope it has some arrow updates talked about in it

[crude summit]

Imo the way it should work for enrage is that depending on the boss' drops the base "assumed" level of entry should be given. e.g., Amascut should have a presumed stat level of around 90 to start it in base mode with basic perks, 95 and above, with advanced perks, and any enrage % should scale from 99-110 to give players an additional incentive to be beyond the baseline for enrage conflicts, without imposing the presumption that you should be at 120+ base combat stats to do a high enrage boss.

Using BIS equipment as a baseline something like Amascut absolutely makes sense if it's something like 1000% enrage and above; overall it should match what the presumed bossing stage someone should be in, or would be in to do a type of content to better balance it around that concept.

[safe grove]

Which blog delay?

[haughty rampart]

#game-news message

[safe grove]

Ty, I'm on mobile so the notification didn't show up

[olive valve]

Is aspects only “one of any at a time” or “up to one if each type at a time”?

[spare shale]

one at a time

[olive valve]

Llame

[radiant ridge]

Give the zerk extension effect to assault so switching to dw isn't a necessity. Also why does melee 2h get a finisher with pulverize but melee dw doesn't? Tbh, melee doesn't need 2 channeled abilities. Should've just deleted greater flurry and even maybe have deleted pulverize. If anything maybe should've just added an extra charge for the channeled ability. Like Assault gets 2 changes or something

[stark brook]

No one is asking for bis equipment to be the baseline. I am asking for the previous balance to be the baseline

[crude summit]

Which is predicated upon base 90-99s, and doesn't work for the reasons elaborated upon just above the comment you responded to. #1477989477375803493 message #1477989477375803493 message

[stark brook]

No. Predicted upon base 99 with berserker aura. Removing auras and going to 120 should have been able to maintain the balance.

[crude summit]

The player's baseline shifted, and the bosses have remained in their old approximated placements in accordance to the old baseline. This is a multivariate problem, balancing on the basis of end game stats is as expressed above a design flaw.

[crude summit]

99 with berserker aura + overloads did not have the same luxuries, as one gave an accuracy buff, the other gave an accuracy buff and differences in calc on and off style, as some people have begun exploring, which moved the meta even ignoring flat out changes to the abilities and perks. Maintaining the balance by basing the stats on the ceiling is backwards to progression, as you're presuming players to be maxed to be engaging in content, which is a design failure.

[stark brook]

Uh, max stats are a given for serious pvm. Max gear or close is also a given.

[crude summit]

Which is not the argument being made, and is addendum to the contention. In end game, and late game they are a part of the equation. They are not the crux of it as you have put.

Amascus, as I already said above is perfectly understandable having a pre-req of close to max stats and gear, assuming this as a baseline is assuming players already have access to better equipment than they do as a baseline to gauge accuracy, damage and survivability values on, which is demonstrably again a design failure, as you're presuming a player is doing a lower level boss for the purpose of farming worse gear, presumably, progression wise this does not work as a design.

[stark brook]

We're comparing equivalent scenarios here. Max starts and gear pre rework vs max stats and gear after. Or, lower if you want, not sure what the point of that is, but same amount lower before and after. I am not sure what you think you're accomplishing by trying to compare max stats and gear before the rework to fresh off tutorial island after.

[crude summit]

So no. That's addendum to the contention, re-read what was said.

[stark brook]

Why would you not compare before and after using the same scenario? I'm assuming max because that simplifies things, and it's the case in the egregious imbalances I am aware of. You can assume less if you want. It doesn't take away from the fact that combat just got a ridiculously huge power spike.

[crude summit]

The core of it is, you said the "previous balance should be the baseline", this is a highly equivocal statement and very susceptible to being used as a weasel word; as the comment you responded to was clearly articulating boss balancing in regards to stats and equipment + perks, this would mean that the logical progression of your implication would be that the previous balance established stat wise should be the base line, so what you could do at level 90, should be able to be done at level 90 now; which is already possible, ergo you likely meant something else.

My abduction on that basis was that you therefore meant that player "power" should be the same across progression as it used to be; the problem with this is that, Jagex fundamentally changed the progression in the last balance patch as one of many changes directly to avoid the same "power" scale being linear, by switching to a far more granular increase, with it falling off around the level 99 mark. My point is, that the bosses as they are right now are balanced around the old stats, which if anything to modernise them would mean you want to modernise boss interactions. In regards to the Amascut comment, my point was focusing on the fact that most the people making these complaints about sudden power creep are completely disregarding the fact that this power gain did not seem as granular as it was multiple things both gaining power and changing, while boss affinities, especially for early/mid game game bosses went up making them easier to hit. So of course you're going to see more damage; the contention regarding all of this is that the precedent is being set with the statement that melee, etc should be nerfed on "the basis that it does a lot for X reason" is that the player-base is disregarding the effect of having base 120s, and it must be stated that the assumption to base any content around the ceiling is going back to recreating the problem of making newer/prospective PvMers presume they need the absolute zenith of stats to realistically complete content.

[stark brook]

Combat just got a huge power spike. And that is not ok.

Do you disagree with one or both of those statements? If so, on what basis?

[crude summit]

Combat got a power spike, and only Jagex has the numbers for what the relative percentage of each change is, overall as a total.
You're doing content designed for the old tiering system based on bosses, and is released as the first part of the combat modernisation update. There are two more parts coming, but on that basis it's safe to assume Jagex is exploring the path of making bosses easier to hit, if their intention is to give player power, and give an approximation as to what feels the most apt, understanding what works and what doesn't, while what detracts and what adds to the replayability of combat is important.

[stark brook]

To be clear, my objection is based on combat achievements, specifically speeds.

[crude summit]

Combat achievements should obviously be updated in line with the new baseline, it's odd that they weren't, if I'm being entirely honest.

The old combat achievements were based on old averages, so they mathematically do not apply under the new system.

[stark brook]

I disagree. I accept that powercreep will eventually make then easier. This was several years of powercreep in one update. That should not have happened.

Updating CAs also isn't the answer because they're permanent once achieved. Or would you want them removed and force people to repeat them everytime combat changes?

[crude summit]

That's not the reason why they don't apply mathematically (which isn't an opinion, that is a fact); the reason why it doesn't apply, is that the combat system's assumptions are fundamentally different. It's like if I used the wrong model presumptions while conducting an analysis.

The reason why they should have been changed is Jagex's speed kills category was based on baseline. The base line did not move because the meta moved along, the entire system changed.

It's like if you had a scoreboard for archery, and then decided to use firearms with scopes, and then said the same score carries over. It's a category error to say they're the same thing just because they have the same target.

It's apples and oranges, we've not using apples anymore. So the paradigm needs to shift along, and a new grounding is required.

[stark brook]

I think you and I just fundamentally disagree then. You think there's a deliberate and intentional powespike. I think there was an egregious failure of balancing. Guess we'll see who's right when they fix it... or not.

[crude summit]

I don't doubt they'll change things quite a bit, especially when the mid game and late game patches come of the same update, but yes fundamentally we do seem to have the polar opposite approaches.

[sharp echo]

Legacy combat has been pretty buggy in duels. Every time you spec with a weapon it feels like the auto retaliate turns off. Someone needs to look into it

[steel verge]

legacy combat in generaly is a mess right now. Fixing it is very low priority id bet

[haughty rampart]

Considering legacy combat is worse in every way than "revolution combat mode with an empty bar" I can't see the devs putting much effort into fixing it.

[stark brook]

Should probably just be removed at this point.

[jovial wyvern]

yeah it's time to retire legacy after the combat rebal, revo already makes the game point and click if you want it to be that way

[sharp echo]

U guys don't duel for money. Lol sometimes when u duel someone a few times and u switch to legacy mode , they don't realize it and end up losing to the same set up. Then you bank on the duel pot lol

[haughty rampart]

Hey look I found an old duel arena scammer

[sharp echo]

Huh? Plenty of people on this thread duel here on w2 bro.

Like @gentle turtle lol

[sharp echo]

Oh I get it now. When they use to do the quick switch of the rules setting 🤣

[gentle turtle]

Not dueling too much right now but was really fun when I was trying to make rotations for rach person ngl and sometimes adding in variables if the person adapts to me

[strange wedge]

is legacy better for duels?

[faint grotto]

no

[steel verge]

If you can catch someone off guard it can be. Omniguard spec+one auto attack can oneshot if they arent wearing tank armour. Or, it used to. Not sure after update.

[sharp echo]

Kinda for some things

Also can we get a limitless rework ability? New update made limitless useless and it takes awhile to grind for it ._.

[steel verge]

Limitless is staying as is for the time being since defence still has threshold abilitys.

[sinful helm]

i cannot wrap my head around why they are making the aura rework SO overcomplicated. and most importantly, even more friction added into it. it looks like they tried to go with the most complicated path possible and still achieve worst result than we had.

[sharp echo]

They're trying to cater to osrs. Make everything simple again so osrs can transfer over since the news is out about micro transactions being gone

[nova geyser]

no idea what the osrs boogeyman has to do with this

[languid dust]

It's not complicated. They're gone and a couple of effects worth keeping are transferred to other sources and adjusted a bit

[stark brook]

Yeah auras seem fine. That's also the other channel: https://discord.com/channels/303835144073248770/1478802977744748746

Hopefully they acknowledge the situation today, let us know why they've let it go as long as they have, and lay out a timeline for a fix (please next Monday at the latest). If they continue to refuse to even acknowledge the problem... I don't know. Might be time to check out osrs.

[vestal compass]

Magic spells should now scale to 120 now and not stop at 100

[steel verge]

That would add an immense amount of damage to an already powerful combat style

[faint grotto]

no it wouldn't, they are capped by weapon tier

[stark brook]

How about we try to make combat less broken not more

[rocky canopy]

lmao at its base, this game is pretty similar to osrs, which makes sense cause they used to be one game - not surprising that they become even more similar when devs try and think of rs3's strengths

[sharp echo]

Yeh but the people who stuck with rs3 liked rs3 for its complexity in pvm. Lol they made it necrofied. Even when necro came out it had major back lash that resulted in necro current state today and the combat triangle to reflect necro changes lol. It's for brain dead osrs.

[brazen aurora]

Its unlikely we will see anything but that due to how many updates have been shoved into this year's pipeline. Its too many and frankly the timeline is too rushed.

[olive valve]

True but now that the can of worms is open the ravenous gamers want more now and don’t want to wait any more. Thats just how this level of transparency goes.

[jovial wyvern]

If this is true, why does a vast majority of the community not engage in PvM?

[sharp echo]

They do. Slayer? Everyone starts off at slayer. Gwd1???? Even leveling dungeoneering in elite dungeon. solo is better than finding a team to do regular dungeoneering

[stark brook]

Changes to other styles are fine with me... except the extreme power increase. Should have balanced enough to offset the loss of auras. This is way too far

[stark brook]

That's not even a little bit true.

[jovial wyvern]

Jagex literally published data on it, it is true. That is why they keep trying to streamline combat and make it more accessible

[rocky canopy]

Yeah I don't really enjoy the changes much either cause stuff that I enjoyed like grico swaps on melee, 4taa on mage, 4ticked sc on melee, defensive autos, dynamic adren, crit buffs that carried over with brid, stuff that changed up the 1 button every 1.8s got removed

that said, I thought stuff like 2tick gcd abilities where jagex leaned into the osrs side of things with weapon speed and varied ability speeds could've been great, but I guess most people hated that

just saying that even osrs has some strengths where players can be sweaty and develop tech for pvm

[sharp echo]

Ok and how many people have slayer levels and dungeoneering levels. That's pvm

[jovial wyvern]

They do not get good returns on investment when they release pieces of content like zamorak and amascut which are really good but then only a small fraction of the playerbase ever engages with them

[sharp echo]

U have no idea what ur talking about. People do trash runs in ed4 to make enchantments. And for amascut. It's because it's quest locked

[rocky canopy]

imo it's both because it's a different gameplay loop and also hard to snowball with the gp you get from afk skilling
I remember when I learned pvm, that it wasn't as difficult as I felt first trying it

[sharp echo]

Afk hell fire metal in gwd1 lol

[rocky canopy]

yeah that's pretty much what I did to build up for pvm way back when, then the snowball got easier from there with pvm drops

[jovial wyvern]

That's part of the inherent friction in designing endgame combat content when a large chunk of the playerbase just does not participate in high-end PvM and prefer to just bankstand/afk skill

[sharp echo]

_> u think if everyone bank stand this game would thrive? Pvm is the blood of rs3

[rocky canopy]

yeah, so it's a different kind of gameplay loop

the afk-skilling idle second-screen gameplay that hooked players originally is a lot different from active playing, so you'd have to take a leap into content you don't know if you'd like

plus the gp you also have to invest into learning whether or not you like it

[sharp echo]

Even new thieving drops is pvm based. Lol you know. Varanus mercy

[jovial wyvern]

You're unable to see past your own nose dude, I'm glad you enjoy PvM and I do as well but you have to look at the fact that Jagex is not getting the level of player retainment from releasing PvM content and that absolutely affects their willingness to make more of it until they figure out a way of getting more people stuck into PvM

[sharp echo]

And how many people jump back on rs3 after a long break when a new boss comes out? People come back for pvm . Not skilling lol. How many people quit cuz of treasure hunter removal? Lmao

[gentle turtle]

Yeah I hope they'll be able to add 4tick back in some way, I think it can exist without being like a noticeable feature

[proven bough]

You know, we could do with discussion without passive aggression. Just not productive

[rocky canopy]

idk, in my experience, it was more the willingness to try new things than the actual pvm learning experience that prevented me from learning pvm, so I'd imagine it's a similar struggle for people who aren't sure about trying a new gameplay loop

[jovial wyvern]

It takes a lot of time setting up a bar you're comfortable with and know where all the buttons are whreas in OSRS you can just click enemy

[sharp echo]

I've noticed a lot of people came back to RuneScape cuz of the combat changes. Lol not skilling update

[rocky canopy]

yeah for sure, half the battle is figuring out your own keybinds and setup

[sharp echo]

What time? There's only like 3-4 abilities now, like necro.

Lol I can't imagine it being hard to set up a key bind for 3 abilities lol

[proven bough]

That feels a bit falsely equivalent, because naturally a massive combat change will warrant attention. Skilling has also been neglected a lot. But certainly, at least right now, a combat update is more likely than a skilling update.

[sharp echo]

People come back for combat updates and new area expansions. Not simple minor skilling changes

[proven bough]

Yes, this was said, as I also reiterated

[steel verge]

I come back for skilling changes.

[sharp echo]

That's the area expansion with the vampire realm. Which includes new bosses and pvm relics

[proven bough]

The 120 thieving update and heists were the best content I’ve seen in a minute. Love them

[steel verge]

Not just that. Future skill reballences to

[rocky canopy]

yeah that's it's easy for us to figure out keybinds since we know general rotations and have established muscle memory, but it's harder for a new player

I also said that the pvm learning experience for me went well (so stuff like developing keybinds over time), it was deciding to take the step into learning pvm that I imagine people struggle with

[sharp echo]

Yeah true, yet the rewards are pvm based lol.

[steel verge]

Pvm based? What about the myriad of resources for skilling

[proven bough]

But I digress, not the thread topic. I’m enjoying the combat changes so far, very flawed though. Not crazy on magic despite it being strong

[proven bough]

Maybe it’s the animations, or maybe just my current position on my GIM, but it feels…clunky? I’m mid game, so I’m not particularly invested in it. Maybe if I tried it from an early game and late game perspective I’d enjoy it more, but so far I seem to be missing timings on some of the ability synergies. I thought I remember seeing somebody mention they were a bit desynced from the global cd?

[mild phoenix]

yall

stop arguing

[proven bough]

Yeah I was about to @, I left it there for a reason. Apologies.

[rocky canopy]

Jagex is putting a lotta effort in trying to bring people into pvm, so I guess we'll see later on how many people will try it out, and I'd be interested to know those numbers

[proven bough]

Still hoping for even lower level bossing, myself. Always will advocate for the early game.

[rocky canopy]

There's definitely a lotta need in the earlygame to ease players into the learning experience, even for stuff like figuring out keybinds or interfaces to teaching players about the tick system and boss mechanics

a lot of customizability is good and should be reserved for later on, but for the earlygame, stuff like that should be a lot more structured and the game could tell players how to keybind abilities / setup interfaces

[olive valve]

I think the skillers vs pvm is because most players aren’t good at or interested in committing to a grind like that and can get their theoretical fix from streamers instead

[proven bough]

Pretty much, yeah. Super easy to forget how annoying much of the game’s interfaces can be when you’re a long time veteran 😅

[stark brook]

Has there been any official acknowledgement of the power difference after the rework?
We didn't know and we're looking at it, we knew and we're OK with it, that's really bad and we have a fix coming Monday, anything?

[proven bough]

I have been wanting to make a new account to experience the combat from the beginning of the game. That’s where I’m most curious how it feels

[stark brook]

Uh. It's Friday today. This has been an issue since Monday.

(Leaving aside it's not clear that's even about this issue)

[waxen axle]

Any mention of turning smoke cloud into an apply on attack like death mark?

[strange wedge]

isnt the new flesh hatcher very early?

[proven bough]

Earlier.

[strange wedge]

mole kbd chaos elemental and kq are even earlier ig

and arch glacor at 1 or 2 mechs is prolly easier too

[raven fractal]

KQ? With Necro, I assume? Cause she defo ain't an easy boss for the other styles 😂

[languid dust]

She might be more viable with def nerfs this patch

[raven fractal]

good point!

[proven bough]

Yeah, but earlier, still. I think this game has a right to pride itself on its bossing, and I think have a very low level boss is pretty solid for a new player experience

[languid dust]

Necro is still early game king for kq and a number of other things

[languid dust]

There's a couple of new low level bosses coming soon during the new continent launches

[crude summit]

Are there any plans of increasing the combat level in line with the new 120s, or is that something they may do when they increase defence, constitution, prayer and summoning to 120?

[stark brook]

New 120s behave the same as necro. You'd expect to see an increase for the others but not for core styles unless you did not have 120 necro yet

[steel verge]

Combat level will increase with 120 defence, summoming and hp.
Offensive stats are lumped together in the combat level calculation.

[crude summit]

Alrighty, I'm glad to see it.

[proven bough]

Yep! I was happy to hear about them. I personally think Dagith Nurn should be revamped to be useful and more interesting to fresh accounts, possibly up towards the later half of the early game

[crude summit]

Yeah, I assumed so, I just wasn't sure what was happening with it; as my deduction was either it was postponed until the full release like Key said, or it wasn't happening. Either way I'm glad to hear it's coming, as it's good to have numbers reinforcing your progression.

[gentle turtle]

It's been hard to play knowing that combat is in this state fr

[proven aurora]

Combat is in a great state, good job finally a jagex W. Now yall can work hard on removing the useless wildy fomo events and fixing the game!

[red pebble]

combat has been great for me. i was hitting abyssal beasts before the update and i have been doing it to finalize getting 120. my kills per hour went up like... 30% i think

[languid dust]

combat is not in a great state just because everyone got severely buffed

[dull drum]

Just a small anecdote from a f2p player: same setup melee dw revo++ kbd went from 52.8 to 30 seconds

[red pebble]

that could very well be attributed to not totally diving into the mechanics of melee. there was so much optimization that a lof of people didnt understand. now its way more simplified and easier to put out damage

[proven aurora]

It's not because everything got buffed, it's because every button press feels deliberate and is easy to understand.

[gentle turtle]

I mean the consequences for the endgame

[red pebble]

EoC1 was ruled by if this then this 10 times over. now you get like... what 3 things that change damage for melee specifically? fury crits roar does 75%+ and then gloves of passage do bleeds better. WAAAY more simplified

[gentle turtle]

I'd nerf overpower, dagger, claws and assault. Meteor and flurry are the best most fun things about the kit anyway

[dull drum]

I did not come up with the bar setups myself it came from a quite knowledgeable source pre update and I just used the one recommended in the wiki sans all the p2p abilities after

[gentle turtle]

Actually assault might be fine since it's incentive to channel your first flurry. I can't quite tell which part is bothersome

[languid dust]

everything was still buffed drastically on raw numbers alone, even the finnicky juggle things that still remain

[gentle turtle]

Maybe nerf ezk 12% to 8%

[jolly rain]

Idk numbers but then you might get leng camp and switch to ezk for spec (shrug)

[gentle turtle]

Besides the overpowers, I can't help but think just an across the board nerf is best due to the simplistic kit that people use to afk as well, not having much to think about. I just think it needs something extra that the devs don't have time for right now

[red pebble]

i dont understand the outcry to nerf everything from the combat update. and this isnt me being contrarian i genuinely dont udnerstand

[jovial wyvern]

Flurry still does too much, there's just no tradeoffs for pressing any of your buttons. Your big channel ability that has execute damage also extends your berserk

[gentle turtle]

Yeah the execute probably isn't too interesting on it. I kinda like the extension though since that's not always up due to boss conditions

[gentle turtle]

Just endgame issues. I went over it a couple times

[jovial wyvern]

The state of melee rn is actually just way more OP than necro ever was, you just burst an insane amount of damage during berserk and then switch to mage and do it again

[red pebble]

oh you guys switch. that makes sense. but if youre gonna go through all that effort then you deserve the output.

[gentle turtle]

It's less effort than before and it results in bosses not doing any mechanics basically

[jovial wyvern]

No, the whole point is you are supposed to interact with boss mechanics

[red pebble]

well i agree just dont switch

[jolly rain]

The issue with melee specifically is that the kit is way too simple and revo++ takes advantage of that. There might be other issues with powercreep but thats not melee specific

[gentle turtle]

And I think the main issue is that it will get to a point where you are just never able to improve your kill time due to doing the easier optimal thing for thousands of hours through many grinds. That's gonna be boring

[steel verge]

Solution. Disable revo

[jovial wyvern]

Every boss is the same, DBA spec, blow berserk rotation. If it somehow doesn't die you still have a mage rotation

[jolly rain]

Ive seen melee/range too tbf

[red pebble]

yall sound WAAAY more capable PVMers than me. ive never been able to skip a mechanic before and im max everything. or i was anyways. im 1 lvl away from max on both melee skills now

[gentle turtle]

It's quite an endgame topic but yeah I'd say the endgame is fully broken rn

[jovial wyvern]

Buffs feel really good for midgame though, they did succeed for pre-invention combat

[red pebble]

im AT endgame. i just havent gotten to the point where im considering switching styles and outfits and considering these rotations midfight.

[jolly rain]

No offense, but end game isnt a level thing, its a gear/skill thing

[waxen cedar]

How do you suppose jagex nerf endgame switchscapers without affecting everyone?

[jovial wyvern]

Shared cooldowns between zerk/sunshine/DS

[red pebble]

yeah best i got is necro Bis i dont ahve the experience with bossing yet to really get in deep here. i dont even have 5k boss kills

[jolly rain]

I think that might go too far and actually kill bridding which is also not good. Bridding should be good. Its just perhaps too good

[gentle turtle]

They already kinda fixed it by making you spend time by activating each style's crit buff where before you could just do it with any style and then you have to spend time extending berserk specifically while your hybrid stuff is already up

[waxen cedar]

So then simply calling for nerfs is going to nerf it for everyone

[languid dust]

bridding should be good for reasons besides "boost ults are so OP they're the only thing that matters"

[jovial wyvern]

I think it's healthier for the game because it also opens up reward space for non sunshine/DS reliant builds

[gentle turtle]

Style camp is too op at the moment as well, especially melee. Where bosses just fall over too easily and there isn't much to improve at. Not much incentive to try something more difficult like mage or range either

[jovial wyvern]

The game being dominated by ending everything in burst windows is terrible for long term health because it also makes fights so much harder for people who don't abuse burst windows, like vorkath

[jolly rain]

Thats just poor boss design imo. Any time you can just completely skip fights thanks to burst windows is not good. They (burst windows) should have hard damage caps to them

[gentle turtle]

I think there's a place for it but the update also shouldn't make too much of the game that we already have too trivial

[jovial wyvern]

Yeah it's poor design but every boss in the game is poorly designed then. Which is the easier lever to pull?

[languid dust]

if the entire game's design and balance constantly breaks except for hard capping damage/timelocking, it's not "everything else" that's the issue, it's the damage rates

[red pebble]

youy know if mechanics were gated to HP thresholds like the zammy fight that might fix the whole burst/ skipping mechincs problem

[jolly rain]

You mean the fight where you burst and skip every mechanic?

[gentle turtle]

I think Zammy is just always healing at high enrages to counter it

[red pebble]

no. i mean that once the boss hits an HP threshold the damage stops and the mechanic happens. i know the combat with him is different than the runes but if they worked like that ish it would prevent skips

[gentle turtle]

I think Ambassador is a better example

[jolly rain]

Yea an example of this happening for real is zuk pizza. Ambi sorta but you can skip beams still

[red pebble]

yeah! way better example. ive only done zuk like... 5 times so that didnt really come to mind. zammy was the most recent so thats what i had on the brain

[jolly rain]

The thing is powercreep is sorta inherent to the genre, so for boss design you either have to accept they become complete pushovers eventually, or you design them so their mechanics are forced using stuff like hp caps and triggers for the mechanics

[gentle turtle]

It can come to a point where it feels like the boss is just spamming mechanics all the time because you are capping each hp threshold in 1 tick. Boss going immune would also be annoying. Then there's Amascut where it feels like you are fighting a whole phase at an hp threshold instead of the boss but it's still alright. It's just different ways to make something fun

[red pebble]

im not saying my idea is perfect but it does MAKE you deal with mechanics and still allows for expert players to blow through phases without NOT interacting with the game minus memorizing rotations

[jovial wyvern]

Powercreep is definitely part of the genre but there needs to be content that justifies the powercreep

And this was not really done for that purpose

[jolly rain]

Right ofc, and im not opposed to a blanket 10% damage nerf here

[gentle turtle]

Right but it doesn't really help the endgame issue. There's definitely places to use hp thresholds though

[red pebble]

idk im apparently out of my depth here so im gonna retreat back to the DG board. later

[gentle turtle]

Hmm, sure. I wanted to explain why I think mage is harder than melee at movement bosses as well, so might do that

[languid dust]

power creep is normal, and over time bosses get easier. The difference is just buffing players by a large amount at the base constantly. Several times through the years jagex said "we're """cleaning up"""" some stuff to feel better", rounded everything in the player's favor, then we ended up massively stronger with no new content or unlocks. OSRS gets new gear over time, but they haven't said every few years "okay instead of 4 or so str to increase max hit, it's 2, and we boosted your accuracy by 50% by changing the math so you're 3x stronger haha". If people were showing up to DT2 bosses setting new records with 3 digit hits with dragon weapons that'd be more like what happens here.
On the more recent side, necro tried to be "easier to use with less juggling" and new takes on our systems, but also had massively inflated numbers and trounced everything. It got pulled back slightly in numbers but the other styles were complicated so they got enormous buffs to be "high effort high reward". Now they got streamlined but kept that power level so the standard is "every style is easy and huge damage", especially at the low end being pulled up, while most of the top end buffs were "we let you keep the power from super cheesy cross style prebuild stuff but now you don't need to" so the literal numbers themselves didn't go up a ton there

[jolly rain]

Yea and again im not opposed to blanket nerfs on damage here to bring it back to pre-update levels

[wise olive]

They could limit power creep for bosses if the did something like for example you enter instance at kril or kree your stats for levels armor and weapons all drop to tier 75 or so

Slayer mobs lil harder to do for

[proven aurora]

People aren't concerned with Kree or kril they just see something actually doing damage now and want to make it worse for whatever reason

[wise olive]

Its an example

The concern is power creep

I mean i have friend with a 1 tick on amby

[proven aurora]

Doesn't power creep refer to undermining older content? These people are mainly calling for nerfs because damage levels are making Grandmaster speed times consistent for more players. That would be current endgame content regardless of whether its an older boss the combat achievements are a more recent update

[gentle turtle]

Undermining current content

Grandmaster is one issue. Powercreeping bosses with easy style camp and ultimately removing optimization in improving current kill times is another issue before even getting into the can of worms that is melee and hybrid powercreep

[jolly rain]

Thats crazy i dont even see it on pvm records

[wise olive]

Like if you enter zammy if your stats were scaled to tier 95 now having 120 stats wouldnt affect as much of what could be done there

@jolly rain that dude is insane thou he had all kinds little tricks i never understood lol

[jolly rain]

Would really enjoy a vod and submission to pvm records + an explanation, stuff like the solo taraket 1 tick was a great watch, but thats neither here nor there

[real dock]

I don't think the 1 tick ambi is eligible for pvm records (at least not the method I know for it)

[wise olive]

I never fully explored 1 ticking best i done was like 3 seconds on alot nooby bosses

Like i know it takes stalls ect but eh

[languid dust]

the actual one tick ambi isn't a real kill.

[gentle turtle]

1 tick is either bug abuse by hitting the boss from outside the arena or it's trio

[wise olive]

It was under solo so possibly bug but i dont think he ever claimed it to count

[gentle turtle]

There's been plenty of videos showcasing world record breaking powercreep in pvme if we are staying on topic

[wise olive]

He has buch otherss that were but i never really cared i dont watch videos and stuff i just know the dude in game and thats what he into

[proven aurora]

Hey I would agree with you guys if buddies uncle from nintendo was actually hitting 1 mill damage in 0.6 seconds

[jolly rain]

Yea lots of records are being broken. Eg that sub 5 ed1 from a bit ago

[gentle turtle]

I feel like the the threshold of this being a problem is sooner than every boss being 0.6 seconds but yeah, it's really bad right now

[wise olive]

But if they put a tier cap on bosses where it drops stats and gear to lower tier when enter then power creep for bosses wouldnt be much of problem

Something like amby id say droped to like tier 80 stats and gear might make it actually fun

[gentle turtle]

At this point I'm starting to agree. If they buff range by a lot, then addresing powercreep is pretty much mandatory

[wise olive]

Doing so would also keep furture updates from effecting too much

Effecting or affecting i mix them words up lol

[gentle turtle]

That might be a great way to address powercreep honestly, just scaling 120 combat stats as if it was level 80 and then adjusting accuracy accordingly

Wouldn't have to mess with indidvidual abilities or boss health at specific phase points and stressing over that. I like it

[jolly rain]

It would be a good way to implement future proofing but it doesnt solve the current powercreep issue

[wise olive]

No right now it sounds like a mess

[gentle turtle]

I'm thinking like that they evened out 99 doing good damage before 120 right. So what if they evened it out again so that 120 did the same damage as level 80

[wise olive]

I havent even tryed new combat to be honest i havent logged in game for several month now

120 as trade off for zerk auras sounded bad soon as i saw that exspecially without any trade off in lowering defense

[jovial wyvern]

Tier gating content feels extremely bad and nobody likes it in practice

[wise olive]

Thats cause they want easy scape

Mechanic skips ect....

[jovial wyvern]

? it's bad in every game, you can go to FFXIV and see how you lose abilities when your stats get squished down and everything becomes a huge slog

[wise olive]

Rs3 is not ff

[jovial wyvern]

It's incumbent on jagex to balance their shit properly and slapping restrictions on the power you've earned is not a solution for the fact that they randomly made melee do 650k dpm afk

[gentle turtle]

I mean I was thinking an invisible change. Like you still unlock imbue shadows at level 80 and you are still level 80 but you are just doing level 50 damage through an invisible change

[languid dust]

coming back to old content ages later with a bunch of new tools and having it be easier is normal. The general logical gripe here is it's not just that, it's increasing the numbers on everything when we were already generally much stronger than our mobs

[wise olive]

Pretty much what i was saying your gear even still have its effects ect..

[gentle turtle]

Yeah it wouldn't be too noticable

[jovial wyvern]

most old content generally holds up pretty well, it actually just is an issue when they randomly add extreme damage spikes like necro on launch or this latest rework

melee is just completely shitstomping through all the CA master times and you don't even have to try particularly hard for them

[wise olive]

These changes are cause people too lazy to understand how to use old combat so they made it easy scape for those people

[jovial wyvern]

the numbers just got inflated, I'm not gonna pick on hypothetical people just to make myself feel good

[gentle turtle]

Melee is not tuned well but the issue is a bit more complex. What if every ability in the mage kit and in the range kit is completely balanced in comparison to each of the different range and mage abilities but the style still does too much damage?

[wise olive]

I was doing over 700k dpm anyways

I dunno what id do now like said i havent been in game for months i just understand alot the problems and seen route they changing

They trying to necro the old styles and like necro they over buff them then later big nerf but still be over powered

[jovial wyvern]

In any case, powercreep aside, this is exactly a rehash of the necro issues where the BiS style was also the easiest and safest to play. But on a broader level I do want to move away from the notion that a style being "harder" to play means it deserves more damage which is nonsense. There should be as much parity between styles as realistically possible and the variations just depend on boss mechanics. The playstyle should just be up to personal preference, with some bosses favoring one style over others

[wise olive]

Necro brought some good to game but also alot bad as it never fit with original style of the combat system

[gentle turtle]

Generally I agree but range for example I think is fun enough even before any switches that it does deserve to be around the same level as mage overall (if swiftness was mobile and melee was a lot weaker or the feel was changed to be more interesting, then mage being ahead would be fine too)

[wise olive]

There will never be a true balance between styles something always going to stand out above others

[gentle turtle]

Yeah, though it's quite heavily off-balance at the moment

[wise olive]

Yea i cant speak for moment but mage and melee were always insane since last changes before these current ones

Mage i felt was always strait forward

[jovial wyvern]

powerspikes always happen in bursts in this game because they'll add a new gear set or a new tier for one style but not the others so that is unavoidable, but this isn't even about that. when they just do a fresh rebalance they should try to make sure the system is stable and doesn't have to be constantly tweaked in the future

[wise olive]

Melee was lil more difficult bur holy crap if knew how to use

@jovial wyvern i dont think they care right now i think they desperate and throwing many project changes at once and advertiseing a bunch trying to get new memberships so they can keep investors

[gentle turtle]

Melee was basically watered down every beta and didn't lose any damage. Second beta lost the berserk tradeoff, then in beta 3 gained flurry and zerk extension which was cool to be fair and the zerk extension is still cool, then it got a necromancy rotation for some reason. Lost the interesting flurry low hp interaction (giving melee a life sacrifice ability would have probably just fixed it, maybe even having extra benefits like death ward from archeology and also would have given something to make a gap between going off the boss: berserk, life sacrifice, barge) like it's just too bare bones and no tradeoffs. Even at movement bosses you just walk back in and it doesn't adjust your rotation

[wise olive]

@gentle turtle there was reason they never increased zerk timer previously and thats cause how zerk worked its damage was always insanely higher than sun and swift

I was suprised when they allowed it extended with havocs

[gentle turtle]

Yeah and it had to be used specifically when the boss wouldn't go immune for a long time without interruptions. Now it's more like infinite damage without a need to throw a weak dps grico in there but you got a big hit instead of the grico

[jovial wyvern]

havoc does too much and there's no opportunity cost of using it
you should have to choose between using your execute and extending berserk

[wise olive]

Also without trade off of lower defence from zerk aura its gotta be insane

[jovial wyvern]

I mean you do so much damage anyway soulsplit just heals you through everything even without flicking

[wise olive]

Like before witb 15% decrease on def while in havoc you had be careful the dmg you took would hurt ^^

But now they stay 99 def and havoc has tier 99 power stats along witb its effects

If anything they been better off just having taking out aura effects fully from game and left stats 99

I cant speak on new combat abilitys havent seen them yet

[waxen cedar]

"too lazy to understand how to use old combat system" the old combat system was flawed. Just because you and your 3 friends perfected it doesn't mean it didn't have issues for the rest of us.

And it certainly doesn't mean that we were "lazy"

[wise olive]

Evidently not as flawed as current situation lol

[waxen cedar]

You're right. It's much less flawed now

[gentle turtle]

I feel like we could have just had both you know

[wise olive]

Lol dosent sound that way sounds like it pretty terrible over power

[jovial wyvern]

I don't think the system is flawed, just numbers are too high and the current slate of bosses rewards 1-rotation bursting too much. It's the same problem present during necro launch

[waxen cedar]

Sounds more like you problem then...is it overpowered in the endgame? Yeah so maybe adjust the endgame numbers. Nothing flawed about it

[gentle turtle]

It's not as easy but that would in theory acoomplish both

[real dock]

Alright, this debate has turned into personal attacks. Let's either bring it back and be respectful or move on

[waxen cedar]

I'm sorry but why don't you delete the comments of the person calling everyone lazy and easyscapers then

[wise olive]

Feel free zeni im cool with it

[real dock]

I'm not fully following this chat. I deleted the ones I saw. If you have issues with another user, myself, or another moderator, dm @tawny mural (@ livian)

[wise olive]

I wasnt trying to insult anyone thats just my take on it

[proven aurora]

And nothing personal to anybody either, I would still advise completely disregarding anybody who says they haven't bothered to play the new update but still offering feedback on it. Nothing personal at all

[wise olive]

My feed back dosent have to do with ability changes

Ive already noted i cant speak for those

My take was about 120 stats being replacement for zerk aura is bad idea without the 15 % decrease in defense as trade off most people dont understand how huge buff that is lol

Very bad for game

[proven aurora]

No

[wise olive]

Umm yea

[proven aurora]

Its earnable in game accounts dont spawn with 120 all combat. I think people who have been playing for far too long forget that majority of the playerbase is not you.

[wise olive]

Has nothing to do with me and what i can do lol

[proven aurora]

Things change and thats ok, I don't really believe combat needs to change that much but if you wanted to nerf specific abilities by 5% whatever wouldn't care. But it would be a bad idea to just gut melee imo

[wise olive]

Its not just melee lol

[jovial wyvern]

melee is just the most egregious because it's also the easiest, but yeah mage is just as strong

[wise olive]

This across board bad for game in terms of no lowered defense trade off for the 120 stats

[gentle turtle]

Wrote a mage vs melee paragraph and wondering when to post that :p

[jovial wyvern]

I'm okay with 120 combat skills being a step up in strength but it's largely the same stuff I said about necro a couple years ago. If it plays well and there's room for skill expression, that is ultimately the most important thing since numbers can be tweaked

[wise olive]

That defense buff with the dmg of zerk auras is hugeeee

[proven aurora]

People calling for nerfs need to start giving numbers or something though right? What do you guys want, x% off assault etc etc. Give jagex something to work with

[gentle turtle]

Melee feels like it's missing a fun ability or a tradeoff, so probably 5% off every ability and effect across the board? And also nerf overpower specifically

[proven aurora]

Id agree with you now then that seems fair and something like going from 9s cd in zerk to 10s would be minor but maybe balance it out? Why is mage better now than pre changes? Is it the wild magic CD?

As far as I'm aware it plays very similar to pre changes, the only thing I can think of is ultimatums perk and wild magic cd? But i've mainly been using melee

[gentle turtle]

Probably runic charge not taking a gcd, gconc making omni crit by 30% more so that learners know how strong crit is. More adren from sonic wave. Like it's balanced across the board so you have to be even more careful before messing with it

[copper spruce]

As a revo++er, melee feels amazing

[wise olive]

@gentle turtle did they replace abs or iban spec with wild magic for adren dump or something?

[gentle turtle]

Hmm wild magic might be used too often yeah. It's also sad design because it was cool with temporal anomaly but learners need something to burst with. I can see wild magic cd changed to like 10 seconds though

[wise olive]

Well be good if they able to get away from eof a bit open up for diffrent amulets

[gentle turtle]

Yeah, I'm just not sure how much magic uses amulets in general. If it's the least, then it might be fine to change it. Not sure if tectonic or tumekens has more eof spam

[wise olive]

Tumeken has more crit

Abs has more hits per attack so long as tsunami still works same for adren gain on crits

Abs useally best go to iban for a harder hit

Unless wand spec keeps fireing

But thats diff lol

[gentle turtle]

It does seem like the base kit doesn't have too much there, like you can't even spend adren with fsoa spec

[gentle turtle]

Comparing magic and melee.

This is mainly at movement bosses that affect both mage and melee, sometimes only mage due to sun. First looking at treadeoffs. First of all sunshine is an obvious one. You can't take it with you while you can take berserk with you, that's a straight tradeoff where you just lose damage with magic. Melee has slight difficulty in getting close to the boss when the boss is doing a movement mechanic but ultimately you won't lose any damage and won't have to adapt your rotation (50% berserk damage taken melee was different. You had to adapt your rotation to survive, so melee did have a tradeoff pre-beta). Meaningful melee tradeoffs don't really exist in the current game.

Despite melee not having tradeoffs, it's a little bit hard to get in close right, at bosses like Raksha and Sanctum that make you move around. In comparison though, it is still not hard compared to magic. Here's what happens with magic:

You are locked to using channels. Gconc spam, long asphyx and smoke tendrils. What happens when a boss does a movement mechanic is that you are forced to plan your channel usage around the timing of when the boss does the mechanic which could even be rng movement patterns. Planning this out exists at the same bosses that make melee somewhat difficult but it requires even more thought with magic and it even function as a second tradeoff because you have to use a different ability when you have to move. You can't use a channel during the movement mechanic, so that nerfs your rotation. Not to mention having to move due to bad crit rng and getting a mechanic, maybe even not phasing at a boss like at maybe Raksha.

All that happens before getting into the topic of crits. You might have to deal with more mechanics because of crit rng and then there are rng resets with Temporal Anomaly and Roar of Awakening spec which change even more of rotation. That is me comparing melee and magic.

Just gonna post this here to reference back to later or discuss.

[stark brook]

What are you missing? People are melee camping raksha gm with no prebuild. People are soloing zamorak gm. This is severely broken right now. Common sense would indicate a fix has to be coming, but not even an acknowledgement from jagex that there's an issue, so there's a huge amount of uncertainty right now. Personally I have zero desire to even play the game right now... when I log in it's pthentraken(which, btw, is like twice as fast as it used to be with the same preset) because if that gets fixed I won't mind terribly doing it at the old rate. But anything serious... why learn it or get used to it when it's almost certain to change significantly? (Please jagex fix this? )

[gentle turtle]

I also disagree with everything, sorry. I meant to say that magic has a higher skill ceiling with stopping the channel a little early (happens multiple times) and that magic rng can have rng boss mechanics if you either do or don't skip a boss phase with omni resets. Crit rng is mostly for world records. I'll also send you the melee video

[stark brook]

I can confirm decryl has been a melee main for at least five years and for all I know much longer... and very good at it besides. All that post looks like to me is an indicator that magic is badly broken right now too and it's not just melee that needs a fix.

I don't know why there's a need for hostility or personal attacks. The issue is the broken combat update, not each other.

[mild phoenix]

Yall

@sleek heath you need to be respectful and civil

Your last few messages are not acceptable

[sleek heath]

Ok, then I am not allowed to point out what was wrong about what he is saying and the flaws in feedback he is giving?

[mild phoenix]

You can without the personal attacks

[sleek heath]

I agree about the message where I said he is "sitting at the floor" that was not civil. But why delete the other message?

[mild phoenix]

“It is obvious that you are just bad at magic”

That is a personal attack

[stark brook]

Does it bear on the discussion? It wasn't clear to me what you were saying that was relevant. Do you think melee and or magic are too strong right now, or just fine, or one and not the other? I, at least, was not getting a sense of your position on the situation from your recent messages.

[sleek heath]

• Magic channels are short, and you are rarely forced to cancel them, and when you are, you lose a tick or two of damage at most. Which is less than what melee is losing when going off the boss.

• Having to move out of the Sun speaks about timing and positional issues. And Magic can easily work around it, since you have range and can place it wherever you want.

• Melee has tradeoffs with Zerk, Armour and range.

• Familiarity with styles and their use is relevant when talking about balance, and in my opinion, you lack this familiarity. For example. TA is not relevant to how your rotation should look. TA is a reactive thing that let's you get more damage than what you would usually get. It is not break or make of Magic. Magic does not need TA to out DPM both Range and Melee.

@stark brook Both Magic and Melee are overturned (Melee especially on Revo++). I am fighting against the point that Melee is somehow **universally **stronger than Magic, when it's not true at all, and both styles shine in different scenarios, while Magic being straight up better than Melee "in the void".

[gentle turtle]

I like that response, we can have a discussion

[stark brook]

Appreciate the clarification. My understanding is that melee is the most egregious offender at the moment and that's why it's been singled out, but really everything (other than necro which is actually weaker now due to loss of auras unlike the other three) is way too strong right now(maybe ranged is OK, it feels far stronger to me but I never used it even close to its peak power before so I have no real idea)

[nova geyser]

I think ranged would have gotten a decent bump if not for the wen arrow nerf?

[sleek heath]

Melee stands out because people bring T95 setups to bosses who are desgined to be fought with T80, and are surprised that style with a lot of burst is pushing the bosses that have been left behind.

Range has actually good damage. The main issue with range is that your are literally working twice as hard as other styles to be optimal.

And then after all that hard work, you are still few seconds slower than Mage and Melee.

[nova geyser]

which is good since it's a transfer of power, but also they should have addressed bolg as well

[stark brook]

I think the ideal balance to start with would have been, 120 no aura is directly equivalent(or slightly strong, or as close as possible) to 99 with aura. Further fine tuning could have proceeded from there. That is very obviously not what happened.

[sleek heath]

Well, 120 effect is similar to Aura effect (actually I tiny bit weaker damage wise).

Melee and Magic went out of control because of changes to their kit, rather than 120 combat stats.

[stark brook]

Agreed. I just meant that should have been the standard for balancing the new kit.

[nova geyser]

I think it was a mistake to hyperfocus on the core kit, rather than doing some of that and elevating ~t80 to t92 to have a more steady rise in power up to t95

[sleek heath]

The most reasonable balance takes I saw on PvMe, talked about changing DBA to 10%, and getting Overpower to a CD where you can get 3 instead of 4 in a Zerk, which would reign in Melee.

And for Magic, just delete Smoke Cloud. A lot of people don't like it (I understand that there are people who do), and it would be enough to nerf magic with no other changes.

[gentle turtle]

1. It is true that you can lose a tick at most with cancelling gconc specifically but this point is more so around the skill ceiling around magic, so the goal is to not to lose a tick on the gconc. It is especially important to not waste a tick on a runic charge gconc.

2. The sunshine is more so a discussion around mage camp, where you can't swap to brid. You would have to leave your sunshine and not have an option to travel with metamorphosis for example going into realm at Solak, Zammy, Travelling around the Amascut/Solak/Zammy arena, having to travel back to sunshine after leaving it in some cases.

3. In my opinion a trade-off something that makes you change your rotationand weaken it due to the weaknesse your core kit, which does not happen with those melee scenarios. Even with melee range, you can stall an ability after moving away from the boss and then releasing it when close, which is a bit easier than starting a fight with a stall.

4. At the endgame which is the topic of discussion, TA becomes a core part of the magic rotation and a part of the skill ceiling, along with other aspects like crit rng. I would say that it is noteworthy

[stark brook]

I think the stats already scale directly, do they not? Not sure what you're getting at here, this is essentially automatic.

[sleek heath]

1. GConc should pretty much never make you lose any part of the channel, since it takes just a GCD to channel it. I was talking more about Asphyx and Tendrils.

2. I do not take into consideration brid at all. The second part of that point you said, it's just planning and timing issue.

3. I do not know how to respond to that. To me, trade-offs and weaknesses would refer to the style as a whole. Like Melee struggling at things like Zuk and high enrage bosses, while Magic being worse than melee at stuf like pushing first phases of Raksha or Telos.

4. We just gonna have to agree to disagree here. TA is 15.6% with full Tumeken. You cannot have your rotations planned around that kind of chance, and like I said before, nobody does. People are doing 800k Suns with no TA active at all (or even Relentless procs for that matter). TA is a proc that's "nice to have".
   There are rare scenarios where you will get for example, 5 Apshyx resets in a row, which will briefly propel you to the moon rather than enable you.

[stark brook]

Melee changes here seem fine. Sc crit synergy is good to have(personally I have never found time for it so wouldn't affect me at all to lose it but I think it's an important part of the crit identity of magic)

[sleek heath]

I edited point 3*

[gentle turtle]

1. Movement mechanics many times in a fight, even have scenarios where you have to cancel gconc on the tick that you start channeling it. Longer channels too.

2. Some arenas are too big for this to count though and you can't position sunshine inside a realm when going in. You can mitigate the losses with better timing but ultimately it is a nerf to magic which melee doesn't deal with and can't be replicated at dummies. Same as cancelling gconc.

3. Zuk is a fair point for magic due to having aoe, though I usually don't count for aoe scenarios due to those being scarce and less interesting. Melee is more diable at high enrages as well due to losing the majority of the berserk damage taken. From 38% with ezk to 13%. Darkness is likely at high enrages as well.

4. It is nice to have but we might need to have a separate discussion about rotational skill ceiling elements. I would say average magic dpm is calculated around TA as well

viable*

[nova geyser]

i mean power, not stats

e.g give weapons t80+, or t75+, specs and/or passives that create a more steady climb to current t95 power, rather than some styles being flat or some being instant jumps

[stark brook]

That I have less of an opinion on. Seems to me we have plenty of strong specs from low tier weapons though. And I'm not sure tier is relevant... do you need 90 attack to cast final flurry from an eof? And does anyone without 99s even do high level combat anyway(other than a handful of pures who are self limited anyway)?

[nova geyser]

Having the stats doesn't mean having the weapons, t95 being a massive jump in power is bad, and so is t95 being a leap in complexity for some styles

[stark brook]

I guess that's sort of tangential? Like are you trying to say that the ridiculous imbalance isn't present until t95? Because of so I'm not sure anyone is disputing it, it's an endgame issue after all. Maybe you're recommending reducing the power of t95 specs? If so I could see that as a potential solution

[nova geyser]

completely unrelated to your conversation about where there's too much power

[stark brook]

Oh. That was the only correlation I could see.

[jolly rain]

Certain t90-t92s have a decent amount of power in their specs/passives too, but others are just stat sticks. Ecb, sgb, mercy, gloomfire, zg, t90 guard. Others like sos would benefit from a useable spec for sure

[sleek heath]

1. It's a player error in that case. I can say the same about having to back off the boss after pressing Assault at a wrong time.

2. They really don't. TA can do nothing, it can give you some damage, or it can make you go over 1.1 mil. TA is part of the conversation. But in the background. And mostly "please show us this rotation without TA". Because it's more important what the style can do consistently, rather once in a blue moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8126iINUw7w Here is Raksha where he didn't even bother with TA at all, and the only prebuild he did was Tsunami stall. It's not a GM Raksha, but it's good.

It also demonstrates how Raksha tail and rocks mechanics were 0 issues for Sun and Channeling, while melee would have to get off the boss completely during tail.

[gentle turtle]

1. Correct that it's player error and that relates to the skill ceiling. It is also correct that melee has a skill ceiling with assault but it is used less often and the style is less themed around rng.

2. This doesn't make sense to me personally because magic is the style that is all about rng, including Sanctum wands and world record rotations relying on crit rng that you only have a 70% chance to get or so

will watch video

[sleek heath]

This is just a random rotation I took to demonstrate.

When people do write ups like this. They don't even mention TA. Because it's impossible to plan for TA.

And this example below is a rot to push Vorkath for example (I think it's pre Beta one. But TA existed before the Beta).

[sleek heath]

World records will need you to get lucky no matter what style you use, and it will be that way until we start running Equilibrium everywhere (Jagex, where my Equilibrium Perk).

[gentle turtle]

Hmm, I haven't seen any melee records rely on relentless but I've been a lot of range scenarios pre-beta where I really prefer to have 90% crit chance to do a better rotation

[sleek heath]

Relentless post beta is pretty much dead content.

Styles right now are setting "new" records. They are by no means optimized enough to have to rely on luck.

[gentle turtle]

Mage is pretty luck reliant, melee not so much

I saw the video and I suppose it is true that you couldn't do the walk under escape trick at melee Raksha tail swipe and might lose a tick.. might have to ask around

You can still stall release, so you wouldn't lose much with melee. I think the guy lost a tick due to magic restrictions

[sleek heath]

At this point you are just looking for a hole where there is none.

Sure, melee can stall. And if you do it wrong, you will be either dragged back under the mechanic, because you character will try to walk to attack, or you will still lose time by spam clicking. Magic doesn't have to. Spell like WM can be cast while click walking.

Also, your character can still move a tile while starting the channel on the same tick. This can be taken further to bug out certain interactions. A trick like that has to be used on Leviathan is you melee him for example, or you lose time.

[gentle turtle]

It wouldn't count as a trade-off at Raksha since you could dive away and stall but I admit it might be a bit difficult if you have to click the ground to avoid walking back too early due to being unable to walk under escape in p4. That requires the boss not have a walk under mechanic though.

Is the Leviathan one only with melee channels? the arguement for melee channels is that most of the rotation isn't channeled, so it is less likely to become a restriction.

[sleek heath]

Melee rotation has channels, because BL Assault is very good. And you need to channel the second Flurry (you bleed the first one). Flurry very important.

Also, Leviathan. Yes. Because Magic and Range can just stand outside of his mechanics.

[gentle turtle]

It does have a lot less time channeling but I do think it's meta to channel 2 flurries in your starting zerk

Leviathan is a good point for the complexity debate in that case. Are you sure that mage and range can stand outside of it though?

[sleek heath]

It's meta to use Flurry on CD. You bleed the first one, you channel the second one, because you don't really want to stand there with Zerk active looking funny waiting for GBarge.

Yes.

[gentle turtle]

Interesting, we can talk about the meta rotation later. Okay so I'll give some points to melee complexity vs magic in terms of movement mechanics, not sure if it's harder though but magic is still overall more complex due to rng skill expression and has a lot more trade-offs, so I do think magic should be ahead by a decent bit but both should be nerfed.

For a boss to include melee movement complexity, it would most likely need to happen at a group boss that has a swipe that doesn't hit the other styles and you shouldn't be able to walk under the boss because that would make it easy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_74UQhwH_w

Walk under example at 0:50

[split tartan]

Having tried everything now I do feel weaker. My combat stats are around 100-110 with t90. I haven't found power creep for what it's worth. So if I'm having to tone down what I did before maybe lets not nerf combat and wait for harder bosses. As others have mentioned while we got new and better gear over the years... we haven't had a lot of new and powerful bosses to balance it at the top. Yes there's the 5% that are doing zammy 500% enraged in 2mins but that's not the majority of players. I think people are forgetting these changes are to get people into starting pvm. If it's a problem later then they can nerf the boosts from 100 to 120 when they get to the end game Content.

[waxen axle]

try pressing an ultimate ability instead of basic attack. might do some more damage lol

[gentle turtle]

That's a bit far, the person does have issues with not having 120 stats. Overall it does feel unfair to say that because that would break the game for the passionate players who already enjoy the combat system

I don't like the 120 raise either personally

[split tartan]

Exactly if people have things down so they can do the 5min zammy let them have it. Nerfing everyone more just so they can't when they worked for it seems silly to me. A rising tide floats all boats.

[gentle turtle]

I meant to say the 5 min Zammy breaks the game for them, sorry worded that wrong

[stark brook]

You're saying direct comparison 99 with aura vs 110 without and new abilities you've somehow lost power?

[sleek heath]

I mean, if you think that style which has better armour, access to AD, better damage, better range, takes less damage, heals more with SS due to more hitsplats, has infinite AoE with Barrage spells, and has only one channel more than than melee AND is universally hailed as second most friendly style to new players only behind Necro due to how safe it is, somehow has more drawbacks, then there is no point to continue because this is no longer a reasonable discussion.

[gentle turtle]

Hmm, I feel like wearing 1 piece of tank gear for AD might nerf mage more than melee due to 5piece Tumeken effect. I heard there was an indirect cryptbloom nerf though so I'm not sure how much tank mage will be used. I've heard it mentioned a couple times that mage is now the easier style. The debate that is unexplored is more so the DPM comparisons I'd say

melee is the easier style heard mentioned*

[split tartan]

Yes I lost power and specifically comparing my gear and set up. 110 with t90 without aura before (honestly usually forget to use them) and now also not using an aura. I haven't even added perks to my gear yet. Just a very casual pvmer

[stark brook]

What style?

[split tartan]

Melee, range and magic as well. At a baseline it takes longer about 3 to 7mins per boss. Nothing terrible just enough for me to want to grind out other things for comp cape. I'm not surprised though since I don't have 120 or bis gear or bis perks. Wanted to let the devs know that if it needs to be tuned later in the year to look at how certain perks interact or specials on gear and not a across the board skill damage nerf

[stark brook]

What boss?

[steel verge]

Are you using revo?

[red pebble]

your mistake is that you arent talking to someone that is hyper aware of combat and all its intricacies, i am probably what most would call... that average player, to me this is just me not having to struggle at bosses anymore that appanrely yall already had an easy time at. so your argument falls on deaf ears

[split tartan]

I'm using the revo bars suggested by pvme. I've tried KK, KQ, Corp, Kril, KBD and barrows. Early game pvm only for the tests

[steel verge]

Little experience and un optimized revo bars only will certanly make combat feel worse.

[split tartan]

As a skiller I could be making a simple mistake somewhere 100%. I know jagex wants more skillers to do more pvm... still worried about trying some bosses not with necro for all of the switchscape and such that was needed. Just dipping my toes in with the new combat changes which I do generally like for simplicity

Bring back combat academy to help us out getting sort please

[stark brook]

So you are seeing a power spike then. You're just ok with it.

[red pebble]

... yes.??? why wouldnt I be? i dont know how to optimize every little point of damage during every single tick of the game like you guys. for a lot of players who havent done much in the realm of combat this is great. im sorry you guys went overboard on it but for the folks like me, and theres a lot of them. this is great

[split tartan]

Yes for me as well. If you put in the hard work to get the items to do the things you deserve to enjoy it? I don't need to take from your joy to have mine. Some more help for new pvmers would be nice but existing shouldn't be punished imo

[stark brook]

Existing also shouldn't be buffed so hard that CAs become meaningless.

[split tartan]

Not sure where you would put it though but lumbridge and burthope had refreshes and it really doesn't lend to that. Maybe just guides like OSRS does?

[red pebble]

Sorry yalls bank is gonna get devalued and god forbid people are allowed to get achievements but boohoo thats life sometimes. sometimes its good for the health of the game if everyone gets to get the stuff not just 12 people who farm zammy and amascut all day

[stark brook]

I don't know who you think I am, I am nowhere near good at pvm. I'm elite with maybe an outside chance of ever seeing master. Gm is entirely out of the question for me, even with this. I'm average at pvm at best probably closer to the bottom then the top and even I can see how ridiculous this is.

[jovial wyvern]

Elite is well above average

[stark brook]

Very doubtful, I think any serious pvmer can get that without much trouble. Average is probably closer to master, or was before these changes. Now it's probably closer to gm.

[jovial wyvern]

I think you vastly, vastly overestimate where the community is at in general

[stark brook]

Maybe the non pvm community. But I suspect they don't much care about these changes either way. I am focusing on the pvm community.

[jovial wyvern]

That's the issue, right? The PvM crowd is a pretty small club and Jagex is trying to change that because it's supposed to be the best part of the game but people keep getting filtered out

[gentle turtle]

Looking at pvme theorycrafting, I feel like melee needs a 15% nerf across every ability and every effect + overpower changes on top of that. Mage I really don't know, I think we need fsoa in the early game so that we can nerf wild magic. Range should get a buff for both bolg and whatever else releases from next boss. Then on top of all that nerf all styles to like invisible 110 stats so that bosses don't just fall over to style camp

[jovial wyvern]

Necro really needs a balancing pass too, just take some of the commands/invokes off the GCD and that will automatically free up a lot more resources without having to increase numbers a whole lot

Resummoning and re-commanding feels really bad and no other style has to waste so many GCDs just applying stuff to yourself

[stark brook]

No one is getting filtered out. I am atrocious at this game and can still do pvm at a low level, which is enough to get drops and even cas if I put in the work. I am not worried about people at or below my level having an easier time with what little pvm they do. I am worried about people at our above my level trivializing cas that should take work.

The fact that you can just style camp gm times now is obscene

[jovial wyvern]

I agree

[gentle turtle]

GM Time for Nakatra is 2:20 and someone just got a 1:30. Really does feel kinda doomed

[jovial wyvern]

you don't even have to really try either, don't need split soul so you can just camp soul split and hit the funny orange buttons

[stark brook]

Yeah. This is broken. Badly.

[gentle turtle]

There's worse examples too but yeah that's a pretty bad one before anyone even has an optimized rot

[jovial wyvern]

Idk why jagex struggles to grasp this concept so much but damage directly converts into sustain via soul split so if you put too much damage in the game it also invalidates boss chip damage

[sleek heath]

Why would GM timers be locked to Brid? Brid isn't even higher effort, just need money to buy two styles, and then you just do two Ult rotations on repeat.

Also, using Nakatra as an example. GM timers are not made around records...

Zuk gm is also 1 minute slower than the record.
Raksha is 30 second

All pre beta.

Not to mention that 1:30 Nakatra already happened before the Beta

[stark brook]

So wait you are ok with this or not?

[sleek heath]

Of course?

In game achiev should not equal absolute peak of the game's history?

[gentle turtle]

It was 1:38 before beta which some crazy tech. An unoptimized rot breaking the world record is game breaking.
1 minute off a long Zuk fight is less noticable.
If GM timers are made around style camp, then GM timers with brid are trivial.

[stark brook]

We also shouldn't get the equivalent of several years of powercreep overnight.

[sleek heath]

True enough.

[whole ember]

My points regarding Necromancy:

Changing the cost of Death Skulls to 60% without the Zuk cape was excellent, however the 1 minute cooldown is still misaligned with the cooldown of other styles, which is only 30 seconds

In addition, Necro still feels lacking in adrenaline compared to other styles, both in terms of adrenaline gain from basics, since it has few basic abilities, as well as not having an ultimate that provides adrenaline in any way

It is still a powerful style, but weaker compared to melee and magic when it comes to maintaining adrenaline during combat
I didn’t include ranged above because I haven’t tested it enough, as it’s a style I don’t enjoy very much

If it's probably just me, I'd feel glad if someone could point out anything that could improve my adrenaline experience with necro 🙂

[sleek heath]

Death Skulls are more more core to the Necro than other styles.

They deal significantly, nearly double, more damage than Op/Omni/Deadshot.

Necro adrenaline should almost never be spent on the finger.
Necro also mainly generates the adrenaline from Auto Attacks. Which is why Invigorating is pretty much only ran on it. You can literally have 7 AAs in LD, which is 7 more than other styles do in their ults.

So, don't feel bad for pressing AA I guess. Outside of LD spent adrenaline on Specials and Bloat. Not Finger. Necro Ult LD doesn't boost it's raw damage, so it doesn't boost specs damage.

[whole ember]

Thanks for the tips, I believe I'm a huge AA spammer and also regarding Finger I only use it with stacks, otherwise it feels really bad

I have inv4 on legs and that is a huge help, I'll keep trying to improve keeping what you said in mind

But I still believe we could get more basics to go along with it, or an ultimate that generates that burst of adrenaline

[red pebble]

Whatever point you're at, you're still far and above most people in the game

[sleek heath]

The only thing I can say about Necro getting Adrenaline ult, is that it was designed for Necrosis stacks replacing it, and Touch of Death giving more Adrenaline in the LD.

[stark brook]

This is objectively not true. I am about as bad as its possible to be and still aspire to some level of pvm goals like ifb ir

[gentle turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvnVA7UwoZc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuiXsQGTgi4

More world records with the new system even at harder bosses

You don't really to be a good player to want to have more content in the game to aspire to. Something that the people you aspire to also admit is difficult

don't have to be*

[flat ferry]

stuns really need to do more damage, it is wild that i have to hit the volatile scarabs in hm sanctum twice just to deal the 3k damage unless i crit. they have a 65 affinity for magic and i cant 1 shot them outside of sunshine

[stark brook]

That is wild; are you not overloaded or praying or otherwise missing something important? I never had them not one shot.

[flat ferry]

i am elder overloaded, using the correct prayer, and have innate mastery on my fsoa. stuns hit like 2-2.5k consistantly unless i am under sun

[quick root]

fleeting boots have an outdated examine text now

[stark brook]

Oh you're maging? Not sure then, I did most of my farm kc with necro and soul strike was fine. Only did magic for master timer and you want to be skipping them entirely for that.

[stark brook]

Also are you 120?

[flat ferry]

Yes I used to use necro there too. But pretty much everywhere else was mage or range. I'm trying to learn the new combat system via maging hm sanctum.

Yes I am 120 mage

[stark brook]

Full tumeken?

[flat ferry]

T99 prayer, full tumekens

[stark brook]

Hm. Feels like that should be enough to one shot. Probably needs a look then. Not touched magic since the update. Can try to skip them, should be able to with that setup

[flat ferry]

Yea that's kind of my point. The ability damage is the problem if literal full bis, maxed stats and what should be the maximum damage output can't deal 3k damage on an target weak to magic.

[olive valve]

Affinity bug?

[nova geyser]

the ability damage should remain low, otherwise impact becomes a filler ability

[red pebble]

k

[languid dust]

if a mechanic feels bad because of something like that, just make the thing in the mechanic more vulnerable like less HP or taking bonus damage, instead of bolstering the base number everywhere

[waxen cedar]

Do you think everyone is beating world records left and right? This IS aspirational for like 95% of the population. Once again, just because a handful of people are doing insanely well doesn't mean that everyone is. Just look at the statistics for CA. Even after the update, there's not too many that has master/grandmaster. If timers are really bothering people that much maybe adjust the ca timers and try to break the new world record yourself instead of calling for nerfs every other minute

[vestal compass]

Rune consumption is to high in my opinion

[uncut torrent]

it depends on your view of aspirational - personally, my preference is to know I will probably always have stuff to aspire to, no matter how good I get. this means I'm well on board with recognition of extremely difficult stuff in an appropriate reward context, with the idea being that I'll never be good enough. Others view aspirational as 'I'm an average player, I want things to encourage me to become a good player'.

[gray widget]

check your charges
take screenshot of equipment and combat stats

[river grove]

Are world records being broadcasted? 'cause I've seen none of that 😅 Afaik the only one that is tracked is Zamorak and I've barely looked at the bossing portion of the hiscores and those times aren't timestamped.

[red pebble]

the answer to this is leaderboards for kill times

[uncut torrent]

I don't think so, since this removes the hope of completionism unless one is the single best. It simply means that there should be things in game which are extremely difficult to accomplish

[red pebble]

leaderboards are separate from in game achievements though arent they

[uncut torrent]

well exactly, that's the problem. completionism itself should be extremely challenging.

[river grove]

I think the game does a really good job at having a spread of difficulty. I'd personally like the 0%'s tuned down a bit as a noob, but the fact that top players can challenge a boss that's 60,000% as difficult as the base version and win is absolutely wild to me.

[red pebble]

challenging? yes. so hard only a handful of hyperfocused, time abundant few can do? no

[uncut torrent]

I think an appropriate target is maybe 0.1% of players

[red pebble]

thats insane it should AT LEAST be 5%

[uncut torrent]

that's not reasonable. in a game like RS, 75% of players aren't making any effort whatsoever to engage in skilful content. top 5% isn't really accomplishing anything against that backdrop

[river grove]

I kinda like that achievements only go up to what, 4k%? Those who want to go further can as a flex + improved drop changes or whatever for log completion, but it's not in any way required. /shrug

[uncut torrent]

right, exactly, 4ks are probably what, 0.5% atm?

[red pebble]

There it is. WHY arent those 75% of players not engaging in the content?

[river grove]

Afaik we don't have completion rates on achievements (but I'd LOVE that, League wiki-sync was one of my fav' things)

[uncut torrent]

the primary reason is that RS players generally play it as a second screen game

[red pebble]

thats been the goal of SO much of the work that has been done though, engagement.

[uncut torrent]

it's cultivated a playerbase which broadly isn't that interested in playing the game as a thing they focus on, but also a secondary, smaller playerbase who focuses on engaging with the game to its fullest. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that in designing stretch achievements, the context of what a 'stretch' is should ignore players who aren't even looking at their screen most of the time

[red pebble]

I'm not arguing against elite status for the top .1% of players however it should not be bound to achievements (something the game is heavily built on) it should be bound to titles. i absolutely think that effort should be rewarded for those who just BREAK the game. however achievements should be doable by EVERYONE who puts forth an above average effort. TITLES are one of those things that like ttaM is saying. those who want to go above and beyond can just go NUTS on

[uncut torrent]

so fwiw I'm not suggesting more recognition than we have atm - I think combat achievements awarding runescore is about a sensible balance

I say this as someone who is a very, very long way from being good enough to get GM and probably doesn't have the skill or time any more to get it

[red pebble]

VEHEMENT no. runescore shouldnt be a gated thing like that even if its its own combat score thing. if they wanna lock people out of certain things to make other palyers stand out, titles should absolutely be the thing that it goes by

[river grove]

I think a lot of people second screen the game sometimes but I'd say almost no one is passive 100% of the time so sayin' 75% don't engage in content is a little disingenuous - they are just engaging with different content, and at a lower rate so progress slower naturally /shrug I'm still working on my KBD and KQ and Barrows logs - that's still engaging in content imo even if I'm not chasing those top 1% achievements or whatever.

[uncut torrent]

but there is inevitably a skill threshold to runescore, the question is just where you think it is

at the end of the day, runescore is a means of measuring accomplishment and if you're not GM, you're less accomplished than people who are

(the same applies to - off the top of my head - all other RS achievements)

[red pebble]

runescore should be available to everyone who actively engages in the game so maybe if the 75% of second screeners done want it they wont get it but if you are a truly engaged palyer it should be available. now if they want to throw certain things at leaderboard and accolade boards not tied to runescore sure sounds great and maybe the thought process needs to be reaccessed. maybe chasing titles should be the way to go., i mean the golden warden title is already rare AF keep it that way, measure grand masters by titles, runescore though? bad form

[uncut torrent]

"runescore should be available to everyone who actively engages in the game" I think this is somewhat ridiculous, what's the point of runescore if you're giving it to everyone for accomplishing nothing of value

we're not talking about the ability to experience content. It is absolutely fine if people get filtered

[red pebble]

but if your claim of 75% of players second screen the game thats still the upper quarter ONLY getting it so which one is it?

[uncut torrent]

I mean obviously when we're talking about extreme runescore goals we're not talking about 25% of players. We're talking about 0.1% per se (again, 0.1% which, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not in)

[river grove]

Combat is my weakest category by far 😅 and it's by far the biggest category with the most runescore attached.

But yeah, there should be rewards for every category imo - Area has it in the form of achievement diaries and their passives. Quests have it in the form of quest rewards. Combat has rewards in the form of War's blessings. I'm not sure if exploration- or skills-categories are sufficiently rewarded? I guess skills gives ore + wood box size upgrades and ability to make masterwork stuff etc? And there's a few titles in activities? /shrug

[red pebble]

i still dont understand why rewarding the top 5% of players with grandmaster capability is such a bad thing when its well known that the vast majority of players in the game dont really even participate? if its for clout or prestige there is apparently not even anyone to show off to cuz they dont pay attention anyhow

[uncut torrent]

I'm fine with taking the top x% and calling them grandmasters, it's just that there should remain things for almost everyone to strive for, and as such there should be things which are still challenging much more advanced groups than top 5%

[gentle turtle]

Do GM's give runescore?

[uncut torrent]

yeah

[red pebble]

the name it Challenger and base it on titles and then give that to the .1%

[uncut torrent]

sure - and associate runescore with it

[river grove]

I guess the TL;DR is that there's game for every type of player?
The 1% who go after top tier monsters. The 10% who wanna trim master cape. The 20% who want to get their comp capes. The 50% who are satisfied with max capes and wanna skill. The 20% who enjoy passively engaging with afk content and amassing wealth. The 10% who don't care about any of that and wanna chill and chat. Random numbers, much overlap, but I love the 'there's something for everyone'-ness of RS.

[uncut torrent]

exactly - and that means recognising everybody, and not just dumping them in a generic 'top 5%' band

[red pebble]

idk why you have to hold runescore away from people. it makes no sense. Playstation and Xbox dont make achievements only the top .1% of people can get

[uncut torrent]

if they designed achievement systems in multi-thousand hour games I think they would

[gentle turtle]

I don't think there is much of a difference if it's an achievement or title. No opinion over if it should give runescore or not. I just think the combat update removes a lot of avenues for player improvement

[red pebble]

listen if the 100% completion average of skyrim in 5-10% being able to get 100% runescore should be around there too

[river grove]

Some games do... 😅 I'm playing FFXIV on PlayStation and there's currently 3 players who have the 100% on that (link)
They also have A LOT of achievements which aren't trophies - like wildly big achievements for killing 5,000 world bosses with (I think) 84-132 hour spawn windows, collect 20,000 things in a dungeon which are rare and hard to find, etc.

[uncut torrent]

but ultimately, it's somewhat besides the point. runescore exists as a broad measure of overall progression between players and ideally almost any form of progression would have runescore added. It's somewhat ridiculous that clue logs don't award runescore atm imo

[red pebble]

thats because completion based on that is RNG based and some of those drops are INSANELT low

[uncut torrent]

you need to abandon the idea that it matters whether anyone can get max runescore, that's not the point of the system

[river grove]

I think Skyrim and an MMO are fundamentally different so that comparison doesn't really fit. ESO might be better which is 0.1% too on PlayStation at least. That's part of the genre that I personally like. I like that there are longer, harder, rarer grinds for those who want it, and that it's optional for those who don't.

[red pebble]

you dont get to tell me what i do and dont ahve to do so go ahead and get off that horse now

[uncut torrent]

(fwiw I am very much in favour of a post-trim cape to keep a reasonable system of aims)

[uncut torrent]

I guess I'm basically making the point that, insofar as it doesn't represent completionism, runescore loses all reason for anyone to care about it

[river grove]

What are the RuneScape steam achievements like? That's obviously not gonna be 100% of the in-game achievements and is probably way more accessible to 100% I would think?

[uncut torrent]

yea RS steam achievements are like 200 hours afaik

[river grove]

That's nice. I might have to launch up on there at some point (if it's compatible with a Jagex account) and pop some of 'em 😁

[uncut torrent]

lol not even that, if you've played runescape you probably have all steam achievements other than maybe 50 uncharted isles

[river grove]

EZ. 😁

[gentle turtle]

I should explore some uncharted to take a break from the combat update ngl. 400 is decent though

[flat ferry]

here you go

[flat ferry]

this shows my perks on the fsoa

[flat ferry]

it should not be so low that it cannot deal 3k damage to a monster that has an affinity for magic.

[stark brook]

Still no statement from jagex(that I am aware of). Guess we hope for the best in tomorrow's update post. If not then I guess another week of limbo.

[supple stump]

I really hope action bars and action bar binding will be fixed up soon. I believe it would be really foolish not to

[stark brook]

Wait what's wrong with those? Not noticed any issues but I haven't done too much combat since the update...

[supple stump]

clears throat

[waxen cedar]

It is bugged as hell sometimes

[supple stump]

setting up this entire menu is a right mess.
you should be able to

• add an ability to the bar and have it move everything on the bar to the right
• swap bar presets. if I want bar 5 to be bar 6, I should not have to swap every individual ability to do so
• drag the yellow outline to change the revo size

[waxen cedar]

Not only that I don't think they ever fixed the bug where for some people when you select the weapon style, the action bar section just automatically defaults back to none.

[supple stump]

I don't doubt it

[waxen cedar]

I had such a hard time trying to set it up last year because I accidentally cleared something. And I found people on reddit complaining about this from years ago

[stark brook]

Oh so you're asking for a full rework. Probably not a bad idea, not sure it falls under this thread though

[supple stump]

probably not but setting up your action bar(s) is necessary to do combat so if theres friction there..

[nova geyser]

I completely redid my action bars after the combat update and had no issues

other than relearning how the action bar binds work for the 4th time, but it gets shorter every time

[worn mountain]

suprise enrage changes tomorrow ? :S

[nova geyser]

haha

[tame hare]

am i trippin or is invig not working on on basics on range?

[stark brook]

Hoping for a balance fix or at least acknowledgement tomorrow. If neither, maybe time to cancel membership until I don't feel completely uncertain about playing again, since my current goals are all completely in limbo

[tawny rain]

This is still broken but I hope instead of just doing "enhanced abilities, make it "adrenaline using abilities" So I can add dismember to the revo so at least T1 is always active"

[stark brook]

Hmm, why would you want bleed on revo? Very likely to go off during your berserk rotation and waste a ton of DPS. Still, agreed that the current options reflect one of many oversights with respect to last week's changes.

[tawny rain]

Purely because first hit is free (0% cost) but then again, if it's on CD when you want to add the other stacks there's a problem. I redact my statement

[tawny rain]

Petition for "Basic Attack" ability that works for all skills

[tepid hawk]

Mow

Cross posted from pvme