#Combat Styles Improvements - Beta Update 4

1502 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

simple helm
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No idea I didn't ask him, he took the EZK in both his hands and did a shoving animation

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It could've been a weapon spec for all I know

cunning musk
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That also doesnt sound like op, that sounds more like weapon specs, tho which ones idk

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Probably dagger spam like in live if its 9 times

simple helm
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weapon spec or not, that much damage is very nutty compared to what range and magic get ontop of sustain, excluding magic because it's not meant to be big hits

thin rose
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Maybe gmaul?

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It's not exactly high dmg though.

simple helm
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He hit the damage cap 9 times in a row, what do you mean that's not high damage

languid dew
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Literally all 3 styles get to do the same thing overall. Damage and adren ult, deal unlimited damage for 30+ seconds relative to taking nothing from most mobs

thin rose
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I'm just gonna assume it's melee barge from when it was broken and had no cd tbh.

simple helm
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Is that a weapon spec or an ability

languid dew
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This is like how people complained about the hit cap going up but "magic doesn't have a bunch of 30k hitters" while it was doing 30ks split between multiple hits anyways

cunning musk
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Yea also 270k damage isnt really that much. Even sustained over a full minute magic outdoes that

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Magic hits like 1.2m dpm at the top end, simply dropping a single hitcap every gcd doesnt reach that

simple helm
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I think I am starting to see why melee is as strong as it is, hitting 30k 9 times in a row in under 30 seconds is "fine" from 1 ability by itself, it should've been 20 times in a row to compete with magic

languid dew
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All 3 styles in the beta are doing something similar. Top end magic is doing a sun rotation where the whole time it's hitting 10-20ks rapidly + tons of bonus shots that you can't even see because they're going off and overwriting the hitsplats

simple helm
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@thin rose I went searching for it, it's literally called shove

image.png
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It says it does 0 damage but I promise you he was hitting 30ks every animation

cunning musk
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If so that would be a bug 🤷

simple helm
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I guess so, which is fine if it gets fixed

cunning musk
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Dragon mace perhaps? 20% for 260% avg

simple helm
cunning musk
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Should be pretty straightforward to log onto beta and test it out yourself

simple helm
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I can go on and look but i'd be shocked if they have those weapons to put inside eofs, they are pretty niche

cunning musk
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You can just buy a dmace from the normal shop, in heros guild

dense pumice
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It is just as strong though, its base damage got upped by 1.13 so it’s 1.13x1.75=1.978, so basically 2. Not to mention new ultimatums and am-hej camp being more viable so it gets pushed beyond its live damage.

They should have reduced Overpower’s damage if anything to compensate for the fact that you can now use it 4 times in Zerk. Something like 500% average instead of 680%.

cunning musk
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Math says dmace on max hit wouldnt hitcap without a crit

simple helm
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It's also not the same animation after testing

dense pumice
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You were probably thinking of the rune claws bug, which did like 1150% damage because of a typo. It's a known bug though so it will be/has been fixed

simple helm
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it was specifically the shove animation from the Dspear spec

languid dew
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If d spear spec was doing damage that's a bug. The rune claw spec, which was bugged to have 1000%+ damage also is "awkwardly shove both hands at the target" as an animation

simple helm
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will go grab rune claws and test since I am on

languid dew
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And top tier magic was beating bugged claw damage because the latter was 30k per GCD with a little bit of adren building periodically, vs so many individual yet large hits exceeding that per tick

cunning musk
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Yea actually bugged claws would be it surely

simple helm
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It could've been, it is the same animation

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for my sanity I am just going to assume it was, because I don't want to have to go farming for Dspear

mortal heart
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This is your daily reminder that ALL the range ability pictures look almost entirely the same and it is horrible. They need to keep some of the other icons like snap shot.

timber star
mortal heart
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I doubt they are still looking at feedback tbh, I tried out the beta and it feels like ranged has been gutted and rushed out the door. Certain aspects are good but the icons are so horribly bad. I truly dont know how they made it to production

dire pike
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They are still looking at feedback

timber star
simple helm
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Jagex please find a way to make Runic work on revolution, the 30 second CD allows it to work just fine 🙂 or allow us to que up runic so it uses it off CD, staring at the specific icon to see when 30 seconds is up is not good feeling

worthy shell
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What’s happening to limitless in this new combat system?

hollow sable
autumn helm
mortal heart
hollow sable
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Yeah all the ability icons look blurry. Like they got deep fried

neon pawn
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I feel like a lot of the players who enjoy the combat system aren't happy with everything about the beta but they aren't really giving any feedback, so it's a bit confusing

thin rose
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There's a lot of "change bad" without acknowledging that change needs to happen so at least try to provide a direction.

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Range got hit with this the hardest I think cause the devs reverted a lot of good changes in response to players going "change bad".

Like using grico and watching arrows fly off to other targets is an actual frustrating experience, but players are used to using it for tagging enemies so "change bad".

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It's been a little frustrating all sorts of things like that, the aoe ability changes to make them more powerful but cost adren have been met with revert it.
Imbue shadows had been met with revert it.
Autos met with revert it.
But then when players do come up with something it's things like suggesting splitting incite fear and tsunami whilst ignoring the existence of other adrenaline cost reduction mechanics to slip an end game buff though the back door under the pretence of making the game better for low-mid level players.
Wholely frustrating experience.

neon pawn
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I think the grico change is due to specific high level interactions that do deserve acknowledgement (I don't know what these strats are but I do think they are there)

I do think it's valid to say change bad, as not saying it feels like gatekeeping gut reactions behind feedback, so it is an outlet of sorts. It would be better to rally these people behind a different set of words but there is definitely a voice that is left unheard.

Personally I think the issues with mage are lack of 4TAA spells (there's merit it to the interaction when looking at the timing aspect) with range lack of rng in shorter encounters (I usually suggest giving range 1 strong ability that does random amounts of hits) and melee.. I honestly don't know, haven't heard any feedback for melee (where my risk reward brothers at)

But then again I'm not at that high level as a combat enjoyer, so what I say could not be representative of what players do enjoy combat

I do think shadows, gales and aoe was fine the way it was with the first changes yeah (except essence of corruption stacking slowly)

thin rose
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I think essence of corruption stacks a little too fast now fwiw, but it probably needs to be a little overtuned whilst bleeds are a little screwed over.

languid dew
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incite fear shouldn't have been, or KEPT in this case, a steroid for Tsunami, it has nothing to do with anything thematically, whether it's water or the description from the Incite Fear scroll

thin rose
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Got buffs from both directions both in stack generation and effectiveness per stack, but bleeds are still inting in group

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I wouldn't try to apply that line of thinking personality because then you have to change all the other spells to be internally consistent.
Looking at the necromancy spell and exsanguinate, smoke cloud gets a mild pass I suppose, despite not being either smokey or a cloud.

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Sometimes, you just let the video game logic take precedence over the world logic.

neon pawn
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Internally consistent with which part?

thin rose
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If you were to change incite fear on the basis that the in world text suggests it doesn't buff the player but rather causes enemies to flee or that it's an ice spell so why is it buffing the water ability?

languid dew
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It never made sense but it got a pass for being interesting after years of cookie cutter everything and it buffed a bad ability. Now they added a whole bunch of other effects/rebalances that could free that up for another functionality and they didn't

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If they didn't overbuff the adren on sanctum weapons magic would be (comparatively) adren starved unless on ancients which was what made crumble undead feel bad even with 30% bonus damage

thin rose
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Animate dead could have been a tie in to necromancy, but instead it's some damage resistance buff that has nothing to do with raising the dead.

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Perhaps a second necromancy aspect to allow for necromancers to have choice

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Instead necromancers get the choice of an always on dodge chance buff, or nothing.

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I say necromancers, but every style other than magic suffers from lack of choice in aspects.

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It never made sense but it was the first ever aspect so it got a pass.

languid dew
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Yeah, AD shouldn't have been that, besides the fact tank magic is a bullshit premise and results in "the only good tank armor" years later. Another experiment that's okay to think about but didn't play out well

bold root
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Wil there be another beta iteration? Or at they gonna release this version with minor tweaks on next monday

golden wolf
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No point in another beta because they wouldn't be able to implement any of the changes before Monday

bold root
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y i understand, I just vaguelly remembered them stating that there could be another version coming this week

tame falcon
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@golden wolf The unarmed autos not working with the melee basic attack should be sorted (in the live launch not the beta)

golden wolf
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Thanks! That was def my biggest "issue" with the current beta so happy to hear it's fixed for live

worn badge
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Will the hotkey options to go to the next/previous action bar be fixed in the live game for the live release?

simple helm
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I hope not manual players have it to good

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In all seriousness though, I hate the fact that something got nerfed or reverted being because "I used it this way previously" it's supposed to change combat for a reason not be "let's give you what you used to have" people need to learn to accept change. Every beta phase it was just becoming more and more of live, damage getting nerfed to be closer to live servers, things got changed on how they interact so it's closer to live, I just don't understand it tbh, it's 5 steps forward 4 steps backwards

crimson rover
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Can't wait for this update! Starting to think they only cared about gutting the game instead of making anything better.

past ember
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Why are the build defining abilities unlocked at level 90 for all styles? Tried playing the beta on my lower level and it feels the exact same as live game very underwhelming.

alpine wedge
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Hello friends. Saw a suggestion about bringing back quake as the dragon warhammer spec.

It made me think of other abilities being removed coming back as special attacks too.

Detonate could be made the Wand of Treachery, camel staff, or perhaps better fitting the Dragon Battlestaff special attack.

Just saying this is a possibility and I'm not against it. I think it should def be considered.

bold root
timber star
wet flicker
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I came from the GE topic where they asked us to told what are the update we're most exited about

Combat update is the one

As a mid-game player, i feel "obsolete", in the way that i was leveling meele until now, because necromancy is the meta and nothing but that works, i started leveling up necro so i can feel "useful" again

I hope the combat update bring back the other combat styles to meta again, i don't want to be forced to do necromancy because "otherwise i can't defeat this boss", i would like to level necromancy because it feels fun or because i like the combat style, it kinda feels like a negative experience and forced to

Sorry for talking about my expectations instead of the combat itself

timber star
alpine wedge
alpine wedge
hollow sable
cunning musk
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Cheaper option i suppose

dusky raven
mortal heart
worn badge
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Berserk's icon should honestly be tweaked, same with adaptive strike.

mortal heart
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I just dont know why we have designed every range icon to look identical so when a player gets a new spell they can't figure out which one does what without reading it

worn badge
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One other thing: we need an option to separate abilities by modalities. Abilities should be split in accordance to what function they fulfil. So they should be in rows of "basics" that generate adrenaline, those that spend a low amount, those in between that and ults (higher amounts) and then the ultimates in a separate category.

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This would make navigating abilities for a new player MUCH easier, as right now it's simply not possible to identify these abilities without knowing what they do beforehand for a new player. It's an unnecessary hurdle that makes them less likely to engage with the system and causes information overload.

mortal heart
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Also maybe its just me but was I the only one who noticed the ammot consumption of range is so rediculously high with chinchompas? I'm think it was close to 60 a minute.

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I have a strong feeling all this beta has done is made it so melee is functional again and destroyed the identities of the other classes. Very likely we will see alot more necros and melee's running around now with the other two classes short changed due to this beta getting smashed into the middle of 3 other restoration projects.

hollow sable
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Beta is still ongoing.
Mage is in a decent place and ranged is being worked on.
Just gota be patient

mortal heart
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I have far less faith than you after the early leveling restoration changes made that were also rushed and continued on the cycle of broken skill mechanics.

hollow sable
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Early level changes feel good. Has made things a whole lot better.

worn badge
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This is the early game part of it, there will be more to it.

mortal heart
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Same with divination and the engagement of early summoning.

dire pike
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this thread is for combat styles

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let's try to keep the topic to the combat skills

foggy vale
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what if the robin hood outfit removed the channel on snipe WK_Think

tame falcon
foggy vale
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that actually was my first instinct
snipe felt more appropriate due to accuracy

mortal heart
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Azanna please tell me you'll atleast keep snapshot's icon from the current rs3 line up, because they look so bad man

alpine wedge
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would still love if an ability had stacks that eventually removed the channel on snipe or something.

foggy vale
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a style specific builder basic that allows you to spend it on a 1-tile backflip dodge would go hard

mortal heart
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I genuinely think it was a mistake to remove salt the wound because it kept you engaged and now there is no form of engagement within ranged.

tame falcon
foggy vale
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yea, totally get that.

mortal heart
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Except the animation for snipe does not fit that intention, the damage is fine but snipe looks like a basic attack when its used right now.

foggy vale
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i think i mentioned it earlier, or did an ingame report.
is it intended that the darkbow special attack no longer has the dragon arrow mutation?

mortal heart
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The thing with range in the current RS3 combat isn't that it doesn't feel good its that there was too much bloat, but removing the bloat that existed ended up with removal of some skills that gave some level of engagement that should never of been removed. I have no idea why we removed healthy skills and bloat from the spell book instead of just doing exactly what needed to be done which was remove all the binds and other spells that had multiple functions of the same point.

foggy vale
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I think a lot of that was explained throughout the various blogs.
a lot of that complexity is kinda covered by ammo juggling atm on higher end though imo

mortal heart
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Salt the wound was engaging and also rewarding because it rewarded you IF you wanted to micromanage stacks or were doing multi target engagements. You didn't have to, the ability did enough damage on its own, but removing it essentially turned the class into, "revo bar and afk"

mortal heart
# foggy vale I think a lot of that was explained throughout the various blogs. a lot of that ...

Ammo juggling is something I can confidently say is done by only higher level PVM players. I have been an average ranged player my entire time playing as well as doing mid to high content and only 1 time did I ever swap ammo ever. So addressing something that isn't a constant issue with the whole community as a basis for a one size fits all is exactly why the last theiving update failed on its first launch.

dire pike
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except thieving didn't fail on its first launch. it was extremely popular but needed the rates adjusted. at any rate, please keep the thread on topic

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take it to modmail if you have an issue

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but i am going to moderate threads to keep things on topic as best as possible

dire pike
foggy vale
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I meant it more so, in that there are various ammo's currently that offer the same type of build stacks and spend em pattern that salt the wound provided.
some of those are available earlier, but those tend to not be worth the effort to gather.

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that said, given how much bow of the last guardian was taken into account, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say, give all shortbows a weaker version of that effect or something

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if, once life a lot of people flag it as feeling lacklustre

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it will be interesting to see general feedback once it's out of beta, I'd expect quite a busy week on reddit

neon pawn
timber star
# mortal heart Salt the wound was engaging and also rewarding because it rewarded you IF you wa...

I do think specifically removing Salt the Wound is a bit of a bummer because it is good early game training for how to use BoTLG and splintering/Wen arrows.

I think they removed it instead of fixing it because they didn't want BoTLG users to have to juggle BoTLG stacks + Salt stacks + Arrow stacks; which I think is totally fair becuase that would have been hell; but losing it in the early/mid game when you don't have either of the other 2 things sucks.

neon pawn
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I gotta ask Sponge what happened to having a bolg variant in the base kit project ngl

foggy vale
opaque sandal
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Wonder if these combat changes will lead to earlier game set effects for balancing reasons, early-mid game bossing accuracy and damages seem a little wonky.

hollow sable
wooden pecan
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Honestly meaningful set effects in gear from t70+ would be hella sick

hollow sable
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Miss barrows gear being useful. Those where some neat set effects.

wooden pecan
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Time to 1hp bomb kbd dies

hollow sable
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Dont need 1hp with the amulet

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Max dh boost is at 50% health instead of 1

opaque sandal
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Gw1 armor could use an upgrade (item). I also always liked the idea of dragon-rider getting a passive

hollow sable
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Yeah. Gwd1 gear is a bit on the bland side

red moth
opaque sandal
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Gw1 is one of the better early game boss intros as well. Should be more appealing to new players instead of skip to gw2

alpine wedge
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Had the idea of feeding melee barrows armors for their effects to malevolent. Ex. Feed full Guthans to full malev, malev gains guthans set effect, etc.

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Could lead to the possibility of an Elite Malevolent variant. Really hoping they just make all this t92 stuff, t95 too. T92 is just so weird.

spice coral
hollow sable
cunning apex
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What do blast diffusion boots do after update?

hollow sable
cunning apex
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Regardleas what ability?

hollow sable
cunning apex
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Thanks

opaque sandal
languid dew
opaque sandal
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With melee getting ALL the heals now is blood reaver OP again?

hollow sable
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Hot take: revo should be only be allowed to trigger basics.

wooden pecan
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Would solve quite a few problems..

hollow sable
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Indeed

random pine
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It used to be that way lol x. Long time ago

alpine wedge
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Revo is only for basics if you have it set up that way c:

hollow sable
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nah. it should be locked that way. No spenders or ults

alpine wedge
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It has its ups and downs but it's def one of the things that makes rs3 unique

cunning apex
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People are using spenders on revo? Thats massive dmg decrease, wth 😄

wooden pecan
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Having to interact less with the game > optimal dmg

cunning apex
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Sounds wrong, when context=gaming

wicked cave
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How is everyone feeling overall with this final iteration?

hollow sable
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Mele is very good. Mage is good. Ranged needs some work.

versed flume
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anyone know if we're getting a refund on shattered anima with ranged ability removal?

hollow sable
cunning apex
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What do you mean, the refund is that they fix combat styles

alpine wedge
neon pawn
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Disregarding damage, mage is nice, range good, melee kinda empty

cunning apex
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Why melee empty, what led to your conclusion

hollow sable
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Mele is the best in the beta so far.

cunning apex
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Agree on that one

neon pawn
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Just that there's less to think about and it's not very dynamic

cunning apex
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I see, thats subjective, but fair

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But i guess, simplyfication was the purpose after all

neon pawn
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With the other styles, the core of what the styles were remained. Melee kinda feels like it just doesn't have a theme to it

cunning musk
neon pawn
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Both. Dagger spam wasn't ideal but there was more to think about. Compared to beta 1 and 3 as well, which still made you consider your health. It was quite dynamic and intuitive as a way to include complexity

cunning apex
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Defining the loss of identity would help to understand your take

cunning musk
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Yea i agree beta 3 was cool but i also understand the reasoning of the gameplay patterns bejng not ideal atm (ppl life transfering at the start of each kill, not using the built in healing, etc)

cunning apex
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I thinn mage is more debateable bc of bleeds still not critting

cunning musk
cunning apex
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Why going all in on crit and still support bleed effects

timber star
neon pawn
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All mage needs to do is rng imo. I hoped melee would stick to the design philosophy of keeping what was previously an identity though but I guess it'll take longer to replace

cunning apex
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Idk man in my head mage should be about ctrl. Rs3 magic isnt bad, but not sure how i feel about it

neon pawn
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Perhaps there could be more in the future where we have already figured out style identity and then start looking into sidegrades

wooden pecan
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How busted would magic be if it had lets say a certain boosted base crit chance in early/mid game since they seem to really want to keep pushing crit or nothing with mage

The base crit chance would drop down to base 10% from the kit, once your gear pushes you past the decide boosted crit amount

Example (Obviously has no consideration to balancing but more as a visual):

Has 20% base crit chance instead of 10% from kit. Once you add 10% from gear, youll have 20% instead of 30% then gearing goes as usual. By doing this the gap between nothing and having crit doesnt feel so big

neon pawn
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Gconc getting high base crit helps with that a lot, though there's concerns that's a bit tooo powerful

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Well, maybe just a bit. Still gotta get a lot of upgrades

red moth
wooden pecan
# red moth why

Why what? Offering an idea to possibly help mage not feel so crit reliant, especially early/mid game when you dont have it. Crit shouldnt define the style, it should enhance the style

languid dew
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It'd still be crit reliant, it'd just have more free crit in that case. You COULD shift where crit is in the kit in terms of lower level gear providing some, which would be phased out by upgrading to higher level meta gear so it's not net buffing, or needing weird "suddenly you lose base crit" changes

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You would also want to add more effects which don't rely on crit, if not actively incompatible with it so you might build in another direction entirely

spice coral
languid dew
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there's no crit magic stuff until the tail end of the game either. Tsunami's 90+ now, as is incite fear, as is FSOA, as is tum, etc. Which is why it feels lame to say "this is the identity" when the identity doesn't exist for most of the journey. Some of the earliest "crit matters" stuff is in the mid 70s with smoke cloud being "I want to crit because my crits are additionally enhanced"

sterile forum
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bleeds criting ☠️

alpine wedge
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Is magma tempest a bleed? Cause you could crit with magma tempest before so... maybe it could be a thing c:

foggy vale
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no

sterile forum
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no,isnt

alpine wedge
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hmmm... couldn't there be a way to make all bleeds work like magma tempest? Not the not critting thing, but maybe it would stop bleeds from being overwritten if they worked like it. Cause magma temepest is kinda of a bleed, being dot and all

wooden pecan
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I know for a fact they would delete combat before they allow magma to crit again

languid dew
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no it's not

sterile forum
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good times, when magma tempest could crit and shadow reef was a thing

sterile forum
languid dew
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bleeds/burns/dots don't need to crit. The stat is already valuable and the values on the bleeds were chosen on the assumption they didn't interact with a number of modifiers. Changing that would just mean a new reliance on crit and such to make them good, they don't need that

alpine wedge
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I mean that's fine then they don't have to crit. It seems like that's possible since magma tempest don't crit either. Like maybe bleeds just put an invisible damage thing above npcs (like magma tempest)

languid dew
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for what

alpine wedge
languid dew
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For what purpose are we "adding invisible damage things above NPCs"

hollow sable
alpine wedge
hollow sable
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Its a ground based aoe.
Not sure how viable that is for fixing bleeds.

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Makes me wonder what kind of limits have kept them from fixing bleeds already.

languid dew
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It's literally not. It's not a bleed or burn. It's a zone that periodically harms targets within it. If they want to "fix bleeds" they change how the debuff is applied so there can be multiple instances of it tagged as from multiple players, as much work as that is for the existing systems.

alpine wedge
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I mean bleeds would still be dot, it's just ig how they actually work and are implemented that change ig?

Something with the way they currently work, just makes it so they're overwritten. Idk, I would hope this gets looked into. It seems plausible, but only the jmods would truly knoooo

alpine wedge
spice coral
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Considering the devs have said they’d rather delete DoT than rewrite it to stack in groups, I don’t think it’s a simple fix at all.

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I think Magma Tempest just “launches an attack” on any target within its area, every tick, rather than “this area deals damage directly”

alpine wedge
spice coral
foggy vale
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zone based damage interval, vs debuff on target.

alpine wedge
languid dew
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okay, if all that matters is "no more overwrites", make each dot/burn/bleed/whatever a status effect that tick down at different rates/amounts of damage, that people contribute damage to when they would be reapplying it. Then you remove it being attributed to anyone since it's just an effect harming the target, so no on-hits, no soulsplit, etc. Additionally, no more need for things like instant-proccing all the damage so you can take those off the wraps/roar

hollow sable
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Instant procing with roar allows for extra damage because it resets the cooldown.

languid dew
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It doesn't have to instantly deal the damage if there's no overwrite. If it's going to hit for 50k over time, and it currently resets the CD, you can't recast it without wasting the damage which is why it instantly deals damage. If it's just stored damage on the target, a refresh would mean you could just immediately throw the second cast on to store another 50k on the target to tick down

alpine wedge
opaque sandal
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Maybe instead of stacking bleeds to fix group bleed heals, the total bleed damage is calculated on the initial hit then applied, and the heal is applied to self as an over time effect similar to the new-ish prayer i forget what it’s called right now. Or like an inverted tmw bleed

languid dew
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if it's like TMW, beta splintering arrows (or mutated dazing shot puncture in live), etc it isn't compatible with a bunch of "this effect is mine, give me lifesteal and my onhits" effects. Which is arguably fine to make distinctions on what those types of damage and effects those attacks and statuses are for

spice coral
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I don’t know how difficult it would be to code, but maybe DoT stacking could work like the masterwork armor set effect that adds all damage to a pool, normalizes it, and ticks it down over time? Similar to what El Natural said, there already exists code for stacking damage into a DoT.

timber star
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FSYA; some of Sponge's recent-ish thoughts on bleeds:

opaque sandal
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Im not saying make bleeds stack thats probably busted, i’d just like to see the heal persist if the bleed is replaced

spice coral
# opaque sandal Im not saying make bleeds stack thats probably busted, i’d just like to see the ...

Why would bleed stacking be busted if singleplayer bleeds aren't busted? The fact remains that any single DoT player (Roar and Ode/Masterwork Spear/Splintering Arrows) is going to be less effective than that same player using standard attacks (FSOA/EZK/Ful Arrows), so a full team of DoT players is going to be less effective than a full team of standard attack players even if DoT is fixed to stack in groups.

foggy vale
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if you have 10 people dealing max dpm, and for example bleeds for that are 4k damage / minutes.
the total damage per minute increases by 36k

#

actual numbers are way higher, but the tldr is that damage would go up by a significant enough amount, that it'd increase boss kills / day notably

spice coral
#

DoT abilities still cost a GCD, they aren't "free damage" like weapon poison. When you have the legendary weapons your GCD can be a lot more valuable than a DoT especially under your damage boost ultimate, or when hybriding.

foggy vale
#

the free part, is where you now get 10x the damage contribution that dots had previously.

#

it's pretty simple math

spice coral
#

the thing is that nobody with a t95 2H was using DoT in their rotations ever anyway.

foggy vale
#

everyone with nakatra weapons, however surely is

spice coral
#

If you have a full team of players using the nakatra wands then yes the total damage goes up, but if you have a full team of fsoa players then the damage your group was already dealing is still higher than the wands group is doing even with DoT stacking. Making DoT groups stack is still not stronger than regular damage boost ults.

hollow sable
#

With how good the mele bleed is they will definitly be used alot. With mwsoa especally

spice coral
#

Melee bleeds for sustain is different than magic burns for DPS. Instead of overwriting your teammate's damaging ability wasting a bit of DPS, you're actively stealing HP from them which is far worse and needs to be fixed even more urgently.

opaque sandal
#

Im less concerned with the damage and more interested in the sustain (tank player at heart). Thats the point i was trying to get to not so much the DPM, solo/duo casual players dont have to worry about that as much but my duo buddy sometimes melees as well and i would like both of us to have the good heals.

wooden pecan
#

Well you meleers are being given heals from bleeds now - so your sustain is actually better

spice coral
cunning apex
#

Ngl man has a point

timber star
#

Melee sustain is cracked in the beta.

You can functionally afk Raksha in a setup that costs <500m

hollow sable
#

People could already do that pre beta tho

safe sedge
timber star
#

I don't think you guys are some the same page as me when i say afk

#

i mean afk. No BD pools or rock dodge. Like; hard afk. And faster than he current low-input necro settup.

cunning musk
#

You could do that before i thought? There was a setup that was 0 input melee raksha revo++ before beta too, using t90 gear.

#

The only difference is that it got easier and faster at that gear range

hollow sable
#

Was a bleed build with abyssal scourge

languid dew
#

you can stand there face tanking tail swipes, mind poison, etc with a mediocre revo bar

#

you can clear 5 crystals on ambassador spin and virtually afk him on a revo bar of "just dismember"

neon pawn
#

Melee skill expression after beta might be from annihilation spec and then also picking when to meteor only at longer encounters (or cd modification encounters)

opaque sandal
#

Im not saying its not “Cracked” but one of the main things they were trying to do is improve sustain and multiple players competing for their sustain is probably not good game design. Personally i don’t care if they nerf the damage and boost the heals (because damage scaling). But in the scope of heals, the new bleeds are for example both stronger and more frequent than excalibur and deals damage. It is peak sustain and there are a lot of melee synergies to go with it.

ebon ether
#

Would it be a bad idea for the Enhanced blast diffusion boots, Laceration Boots and Fleeting Boots to have a passive effect like the Mobile perk?

misty beacon
#

Man, why did they neuter energising so hard in the latest patch? 150 accuracy is basically useless to anyone who actually has access to invention and is willing to perk out their gear

foggy vale
#

that won't be the case if they release more content with high armour ratings.

misty beacon
#

150 flat accuracy bonus is nothing at high levels

#

Certainly not worth picking over another perk

dense pumice
languid dew
#

you can also get it early on in invention including comboing it on crackling or something

misty beacon
#

Perhaps more than I realized. Still an odd design choice though to make it flat, I don't know why they wouldn't keep it % based so it's consistent throughout the level bands

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Was looking at gizmo combinations, and the most realistic place it could slot in would be with Invigorating 4 + Energising 2

#

It was probably a touch overtuned with the previous numbers

red moth
misty beacon
cunning musk
#

Because it was warpingly strong at % based, and they wanted an early/mid game perk that didn't affect end game as much

spice coral
#

For context, since melee and ranged don’t get crit buffs anymore, 7% accuracy from energy 4 was better than 8% crit from biting 4 at bosses where you don’t have perfect accuracy even with 120 stats

#

Way too strong for such a cheap perk

cunning musk
#

Also lets you use more accuracy tradeoff stuff effectively, like reavers ring and ful arrows and whatever else

#

Oh and dba

#

We really didn't need dba meta to be stronger than it is, its already basically the best thing you can do during a prebuild and between zerks

misty beacon
#

Yeah the previous version was definitely too good, on account of it being hit chance based and the raw numbers being too high. I'd think something like 2% + 0.75 x tier% accuracy increase (not hit chance) would be more in line. Or 1 + 1 x tier if they want to make it less potent as a combo perk. Just prevents the flat bonus scaling weirdly and being too good at lower levels and scaling poorly at higher levels

sterile forum
#

May God bless the developers and may they have cooked well.

tacit copper
#

Super excited to try out the combat styles tomorrow Gnomechildblush

timber star
#

Tomorrow should be fun. I think a lot of people are going to be frustrated early on as they have to shuffle their bars and read ability descriptions; but overall the beta feels great and I have confidence the late range fixes will help.

ebon ether
timber star
ebon ether
timber star
steel orchid
timber star
ebon ether
#

so many big changes so quick, I'm anxious

hollow sable
#

It'll be for the best. Ive got a gut feeling.

cunning apex
spice coral
#

The average RS3 joe any MMO player and reading, a match made in Infernus

steel orchid
# cunning apex There will be Suggestions how to combine abilitys if im Not mistaken.not sure ab...

It will take much longer than 20 minutes to not only read the tooltips but also to process the information and figure out how to set up an ability bar. I personally never bothered to learn what the individual Melee, Magic and Ranged abilities do because the amount of information is just too overwhelming. I just copy bars from elsewhere. I can only do full manual with necro.
Auto-setup of action bars will need to work well. When I tried the beta, it didn't, so that's not promising. Also, I haven't seen anything about suggestions on how to combine abilities for players who have already unlocked them. Tutorialization popups trigger only when unlocking a new ability.

cunning apex
wicked cave
#

Im surprised this chat is still here

#

considering tomnorrow is the release date

steel orchid
# cunning apex I was not suggesting, someone who doesent havy any experience should go full man...

You're assuming someone will even get to the point that they will read all the tooltips before getting overwhelmed, and then also know what to do with the information. The Fury ability right now says: 'Increases the Critical Strike Chance of your next Melee attack by 25%.' (This is the first time I'm reading that, by the way.) A new player who just unlocked the ability will get a pop-up that says to try combining it with Overpower. But as someone with 99+ Attack and all abilities already unlocked, I will have to figure that out by myself. The result is that I will probably opt to go do something else instead.

image.png
cunning apex
wooden pecan
steel orchid
worn badge
# steel orchid I've *wanted* to learn the other styles but the amount of information *is* overw...

Something I've recommended before is that there should be an option to highlight abilities that work in tandem with one another based on raw damage % e.g., if you use Greater fury/Chaos Roar, it should highlight overpower. It would really help to tutorialise combat for newer players. It would really help to tutorialise combat for newer players, and realistically plugins should be able to do this when those are released.

cunning apex
wooden pecan
#

For what it's worth, if people want help understanding combat a bit better after launch tomorrow, feel free to reach out. The update does make some if it easier to follow/understand but we aren't quite at a super good spot yet

cunning apex
#

What would you need to be more clear? How would you write the description

steel orchid
worn badge
#

Descriptions are only one mode of teaching, memories are best consolidated when multiple different scopes of reference are consolidated. It's why adding something like a highlight system would be invaluable to teach a new player what to do intuitively.

You want combat to be intuitive, not reflective, as it should be something habituated.

At the very start it's not going to be an automated process, once you automate the most basic part of the procedure you can think about the optimal procedure, and it decouples a major aspect of difficult—cognitive load. If you overwhelm someone with information they not only recall it worse, they'll feel disincentivsed to learn.

cunning apex
worn badge
steel orchid
cunning apex
#

Bro, english isnt my first language, can you just explain it more relatebale? Xd

cunning apex
worn badge
# cunning apex Bro, english isnt my first language, can you just explain it more relatebale? Xd

In essence: the current system does try to teach new players to chain abilities, but it only does so via text. Doing so is a very inefficient and ineffective way of teaching people, and it's an inferior method of doing so compared to using for example the highlight system I mentioned a little bit above.

So, my stance is that new players are being given information in a weaker manner than they could be, which is making learning the game for them harder, as people learn by doing, and the game isn't making them do anything, it's telling them things, and using words that they have no real conceptualisation of.

cunning apex
steel orchid
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At least new players will get tutorialization. Existing players will get nothing at all.

worn badge
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e.g., If I asked you to learn a completely new skill and started using nomenclature, it would mean nothing to you until I explained it, it's why it's much better to use a term like that and then explain it afterwards, and re use it, or even better yet to give a direct example of it that the person can use. I think the combat system in the beta can work very well for players, and I think that with the upcoming plugin system it will 100% be easier to bridge the gap for new players, but as of right now really one of the easiest ways to tutorialise players into combat would be that highlight system I just mentioned.

Nothing crazy, just something simple enough to get them started and get them doing simple combinations, with possible expansions to it being customisable—as this game has a lot of very skilled, veteran players who are happy to teach newer players, and even that en masse would really help.

sterile forum
worn badge
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Yeah, I really do think it would immensely simplify the process of onboarding new players into combat, and getting them both interested and invested in it.

cunning apex
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Still.. I mean, imagine, you try to learn chess, a cardgame, or an other mmorp. I agree, the less bloated with "game knowldedge based key words", the easier to understand, in the end you want the game to be easy to understand but hard to master. Regardless what you trie to understand, you always will need to put some kind of effort in it. Maybe I disagree on the take, that it should inherit a level of simplyfication, where almost no effort is required to build own rotations.

worn badge
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Chess is a reflective game with a set amount of rules, but it's not a solved game, per se. But based on the moves played, it effectively is. Runescape's rng makes it impossible to ever be fully "solved" but it can be made optimal. You can have informational bloat, and you can have what I term "pseudo complexity" or systems that are difficult to navigate and manage that create difficulty or player friction because of how poorly they do their designed task.

Runescape tells you what to press and what to chain without explaining any of it or showing you it, it's like if I took someone who had no knowledge of what a car is, and then asked them to hold down the accelerator. That's why I see communicating what an accelerator is, what a break is, and what they all do, and mean alongside what the optimal synergy is between them, and what to keep track of, one thing at a time is optimal.

When you first how to ride a bicycle, you need to learn how to balance on one first, before you learn how to ride faster. Runescape needs to teach you to balance, then it can teach you to juggle everything else, preferably by showing you like a parent teaching their child.

People like to learn games intuitively, intuitive game design means the onboarding process is both faster, and self contained, meaning no wiki requirement meaning no further player engagement as the barrier to entry becomes much lower. Nothing about the combat has to be simplified there to make that work, all you're doing is changing the focalisation of the elements already existing.

tall gale
#

tbf there's a lot you can infer from actually reading your abilities but a lot of people can't even be assed to do that and they'll just ignore every pop up no matter how informative or well tutorialised it is

#

not that the game shouldn't try, for those who do actually care

cunning apex
tall gale
#

Like you might not do a perfect rotation, but it's pretty easy to intuit from death swiftness "I should use this every minute and try to cram as many big abilities in it as I can". Then maybe you run into the problem of "I need to build a little bit before I can cram big abilities in my swiftness". And then you unlock adren points and "oh this can help me get the adren back for big hits after dswift". Or you get BOLG and if you actually read your abilities you should know which abilities you want to build to 3/7 with and which you want to spend on 4/8 just looking at the ability damage and hit counts

steel orchid
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You're not incentivized to learn it. Why would I invest time into reading abilities and trying to figure out how they work together, if I can instead copy a bar from the wiki and go kill stuff? That is until I get to a boss where manual input is mandatory and I need to suddenly learn the skill from scratch.

cunning apex
tall gale
#

being able to actually attack while moving was a good enough incentive for me

#

that and the whole reason I even made an account and got back into the game last Jan was because I was watching a friend stream ranged at Glacor HM and I was asking about their buffs and when they explained balance stacks to me I said I need one and I need it now, how do I get it, and went and made an account

worn badge
#

Yes, and all of that is addendum to the fact that this is a much higher barrier to entry, and an unnecessary one for none other reason than "it's possible to learn therefore it's good enough"; which is a major shift of the focus of the discussion, which is effective and superior tutorialisation.

sterile forum
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there is some tip ingame that tell DoT cant be buffed in sunshine/berserk/death swiftness and that DoT cant be stacked in groups?

worn badge
#

Communication needs to be clear and actionable, as reflective cognition is not habituable with high cognitive load, so even in that case the base assumption is tenably false for a new player, unless they're already majorly relying on revolution.

cunning apex
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Its not like existing players wouldnd have to addapt to changes

worn badge
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They would not, as these are onboarding devices, which may be entirely disabled at a player's whim.

tall gale
steel orchid
cunning apex
#

As I said, tooltips literally tell you what they do. If you are already playing the game, you can translate this information. Your claim is, it takes hours. My claim is, it does not. If reading abilitys is too much, your take is kinda "i want to be able to kill evrything without reading anything, not for once" thats what it sounds to me. Im not saying thats the case, but thats how i read your words.

golden wolf
#

You're both wrong.

cunning apex
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Its not about being wrong, i try to understand his take, bc i really dont get it.

tall gale
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it took me like, 10 minutes in the beta at a training dummy reading the new abilities/changes and then hitting the dummy to then go and get similar or improved kts. it's not a tall ask imo

cunning apex
#

I like this man xd

steel orchid
cunning apex
#

Bc i dont agree doesnt mean i dont trie to understand you

golden wolf
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Oh I didn't actually read anything, but yeah on the beta I read abilities and for magic and ranged was able to put together an okay bar from reading the abilities alone
Melee I couldn't but that was before melee got a bunch of big changes so might be easier to make a decent bar from reading what things do now

cunning apex
#

Atervanada, pls dont take this conversatiok personally i dont know you you dont know me we just dont agree and thats ok

steel orchid
cunning apex
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Did i call you lazy? Nah i didnt. I believe you, that you tried, what i believe is, your approach how things should be is maybe sort of lazy, i give you that. But to make this clear - wether if its true or not, its okay to dont agree, so lets stay cool on both sides.

worn badge
#

It's just a red herring.

cunning apex
#

This is crazy man.

worn badge
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Can players feasibly do X is not the same discussion as is "Is X incorporated the best it feasibly can be?" (resoundingly no, hence the highlight synergy option suggestion), which is why I've reiterated twice now that it's addendum to the the crux of the issue. But since the former is a much easier and opinionable debate, people feel more comfortable to discuss that, the latter is very much something I can scientifically evidentiate through the dual process model, cognitive load theory, and heuristic learning contextualised within UX and Game design systems aka heuristic evaluation.

#

Realistically this is something a Cyber/game psychologist contractor would also very happily help Jagex with, if they disagree with that style of approach from a random player with unknown credentials.

steel orchid
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I've reset my skills in the beta and tried to learn Magic with the tutorialization popups. It works to an extent. Not the auto-setup action bars, because the order the abilities are put in makes it so some never trigger at all. But the explanation and particularly the suggestion to combine ability X with ability Y is, I think, good for new players to learn manual combat. Not optimal, not by a long shot, but better than what we had.
My point was that existing players do not get the benefit of learning combat this way, so they're likely to be very overwhelmed tomorrow if they haven't played the beta and especially if, like me, they never properly learned manual combat before. Apparently this is very difficult for some people to comprehend.

cunning apex
steel orchid
#

Why the hell would that be only for endgame?

cunning apex
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Bc you dont need optimited dmg to kill vindicta.

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And if you are at a point where ypu want fast kill times, you are already invested in the game

steel orchid
#

Why would you not want to optimize damage at all points along your gameplay journey? Why only in the endgame?

cunning apex
#

Bc then, there is no optimization process involved. If you were able to everything right away, without experience and investment, it is meaningless

steel orchid
#

That makes no sense at all. Do you know what the word 'optimize' means?

cunning apex
#

Why doesnt make that sense

steel orchid
#

Nobody's asking to be 'able to do everything right away'. Optimized damage doesn't mean maximum damage possible.

cunning apex
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Okay sry i used a wrong term. Not a native speaker, you are right here

#

Okay: Lets trie to solve this now. Of course, you always want the optimized damage for your current lvl. Agreed. To optimize your damage you need to figure out rotations, setup, and also the bossfight. So if you actually want fast kill times, you need to put a lot more time into it, compared to a "i just want to be able to get the kill" agreed so far? Ok: the point were we devide is (correct me if im wrong) x ammount of time required to optimize dmg = too long / = okay. Is that correct?

steel orchid
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No. From the start I've talked about the difference in experience between new and existing players. My point – and I don't know how often I have to repeat this – is that new players will be given information piecemeal as they unlock new abilities, including how to combine them, while existing players will be thrown in at the deep end tomorrow and be on their own.
It doesn't make any sense to argue that existing players should be required to put in a lot more effort than new players, unless you believe that new players also should not be given any form of tutorialization. I really don't know how I can make this any clearer to you.

cunning apex
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Existing players do have an advantage. They already can translate ingame information, bc they play the game. They already know online sources to research if they dont understand certain things. They basically have the tools to learn something by reading the tooltip. They also are able to learning by doing. Now we are back at the point where you say "it's too complicated", and we already know, we don't agree on that, beside that, is it even confirmed, only new players get the pop up when updste launches.

wooden pecan
#

Tbf existing players shouldnt have to find that information externally, it should be clearer in game

cunning apex
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Thats debateable, agree on that, still, they should be able to figure out on their own. Its not like jagex requires you to study 2 lines of text for 3 years

wooden pecan
#

They absolutely can, but I think you are missing Atervandas point ever so slightly

steel orchid
cunning apex
#

Never claimed it would

worn badge
#

The disconnect arises from this: older players already know what to expect.
You can't say "the puzzle is still solveable tho" in response to "it's harder for a newer puzzle solver to solve a puzzle that's completely blank" compared to one that's coloured in, and has very clear patterns where the other pieces fit.

Runescape is currently doing exactly the first option right now, which is the contention Atervanda is raising.
Tutorialising players by introducing more systems than just text is not a big ask, nor is it a time-waste nor a squandering of resources. The action bar system's revo bar shows they already have the tools to highlight bars, this would have to be updated to include individual inputs, which would then be highlighted to allow a player to understand a basic rotation order in full manual.

Saying "You can still learn it right now though" does not address the above, which is why I said a bit above that this is a massive red herring, or a case of missing the point/changing the discussion without addressing it.

steel orchid
#

I think you guys are confusing existing players and experienced players. I'm an existing player, but I returned more than a decade after the evolution of combat. I never learned full manual combat in Melee, Magic or Ranged. I do not know what the individual abilities do, so no, I can't just translate old information. I will be starting completely from scratch, without the benefit of tutorialization.

#

Consequently, it is very likely that I will do what I did before: copy a revo bar from the wiki and continue to use Necro for the most part. Path of least resistance.

worn badge
#

The "older players already know what to expect" was more an expression of the general philosophy observed more so than any one shared view. I'm also an older player, but within the context of learning a system fully manual, I am a "new" player to it. Even if I am aware of the existence of systems, I do not know their individual synergies, even if I do understand their conceptual function. Early on this causes needless friction, later down the line this is purely a reflective note, and not something inherently actionable without being parsed further (which was my other argument above), which is a much weaker form of teaching than priming a player to apply that knowledge.

#

I truly do believe what's most necessary is the tutorialisation of these early game systems, and integrating an intuitive, integrated and responsive player feedback loop to let players know what sequence of abilities they should be using in order e.g., chaos roar causes overpower to light up (as an optional toggle), things like this greatly incentivise player responsiveness and if nothing else will teach them to play reactively, not passively.

worn badge
# steel orchid Consequently, it is very likely that I will do what I did before: copy a revo ba...

This is what is meant by cognitive load, btw. The path of least resistance will intuitively lead people to choosing that option, especially if they're primed through system 1 cognition. Psychologically, introducing a basic highlight system to teach new players ability rotations in full manual would entirely resolve that tradeoff, as they would have a much lower baseline to start from, much lower risk, much higher reward, and a mid line.

Adding player driven customisability to this, like integrating further additions to it would really also help. e.g., End game players could share their ability highlight orders to new players.

tall gale
#

If anything I'd like videos of the devs doing rotations at different levels with different gear, I always wonder what type of rotations they have in mind

cunning apex
worn badge
#

So, the aforementioned. I reworded it to player driven customisability to help better frame what I'm alluding to beyond the context of the customisability afforded by it.

cunning apex
#

Another question - would you rather see, jagex pushing players to learn full manual earlier in their line of progress? If yes, why, if no why,

worn badge
#

Right now, Jagex doesn't push players to learn manual in any line of progress other than for achievement hunting for something like the PvM unlocks. I believe revo should be sequestered to be an afk training method. Manual should be something that you learn once you're post 99s, or simply need higher damage output. The reasoning being that the current combat progression system isn't engaging enough to capture the attention of most players, especially with current XP rates in most cases, until it gets to around again max combat stats which again will be raising to 120. Onboarding players to manual should be something that's taught, and primed early on to motivate them towards early game bosses, or side-achievement hunting as Jagex continues to add those.

tall gale
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This doesn't answer that question but I'll point out that people's perception of full manual will depend on the game they come from. For OSRS players trying EOC or people who played pre-EOC it's a lot more daunting, but for people who come from other MMOs, full manual may just be the default to them

#

I'll also note that casual and full manual are not mutually exclusive, FFXIV is one of the most casual friendly games I can think of but that games still full manual only

hollow sable
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Agree. Revo needs to be toned down alot in terms of damage.
I get wanting ease of use. But being able to just click once and afk a boss isnt good.
Having revo being a stepping stone to teach players how to full manual would be ideal.
Get them started, then teach them as they level up and unlock abilitys how they work together and that they can get more damage by triggering them manually in a proper order.

#

Imo. Revo should at most take you up to starting gwd2 in terms of bosses.
Let them get aquainted with things then have them start using full manual as they continue on.

#

get them to start using spenders and ults on there own.

cunning apex
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What if they added "suggestions" for what to use on revo bar. For example necro stackbuilders

hollow sable
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Wouldent be a bad idea.
One sugjestion i heard was locking the revo bar size to 3-4.
Letting people trigger a few abilitys but not letting them do a full rotation without any manual imput

cunning apex
#

Ye, 3-4 would be ideal

hollow sable
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Letting revo be like a set of training wheels that idealy will be removed once you learn how things work

#

Would allow for afk training since only 3-4 aoe abilitys are really used for that. But tone down the boss damag so you arent afking amby or rahksha with no effort

polar relic
#

so penolize mobile players

#

who rely on revo due to lack of action bars

hollow sable
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This game is primarily pc based.
Game health needs to be considered for the majority. Mobile will still be useable.
But it was never intended to be the primary way to play the game.

polar relic
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mobile users still pay same membership. They offer it now, so your point is invalid.

hollow sable
#

So game health should be ignored because people play on the version that has les buttons?

polar relic
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Revo also helps players with disabilities access the game. no, game health includes mobile lol.

safe sedge
#

also, saying "you can still AFK on 3-4 abilities" is... the aoe's aren't THAT low cooldown lol

polar relic
#

there is nothing wrong with revo lol.

#

The game from the start has essetilly beenn revo, hit and afk lol.

cunning apex
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In some way it is, bc it teaches you to do less dmg by default

hollow sable
wooden pecan
#

Mobile should only be considered for accessibility and usability, but not in any form dictate pvm difficulty, complexity, or endgame design, full stop.

safe sedge
cunning apex
#

Depends on what you want to do

polar relic
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the games combat has always been AFK from the beginning. why cry 25 years later lol.

cunning apex
#

Whos crying, we are debating

hollow sable
#

This game is primarily pc.
Mobile shouldn't stand in the way of proper game balance.

polar relic
#

bit defensivee there

#

theres nothing wrong with revo lol

#

key, times change - move on - mobile has a huge playerbase now and many users. stop dismissing people who conribute same membership as you. you are not superior to anyone cvause you prefer Pc gaming.

wooden pecan
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Mobile should be considered for accessibility, nothing more

cunning apex
#

I dont think he wants to dismiss you

polar relic
#

we pay same membership, and ive paid since classic every month.

safe sedge
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I continue to find it odd that people want people to learn full manual... and instead of asking "how do we improve the learning proccess" the proposal is "make revo worse"... when Revo is already always several 100k DPM worse than full manual to begin with

polar relic
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Ava, its how it comes across (y)

cunning apex
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If they make ability buttons smaller on mobilr, to fit more slots, would you still be against reducing max revo slot? Just curious

hollow sable
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There absolutely is. Its fallen out of its place as a stepping stone to full manual.
People dont want to learn full manual because they have revo to do everything for them.

Mobile is factually a worse option for doing combat because of the limitations of the hardware.
Those limitations should not then dictate the ballence for the entire game.

polar relic
#

so you speak for everyone lol i got reaper and completonist on mobile mate.

cunning apex
#

We should focus on information and idea exchange pls

polar relic
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you dont get a say if you use mobile it seems 😉

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no one should be forced into manual

wooden pecan
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It would be interesting to see how bad the game would feel if we designed content around/for mobile players

frigid zodiac
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For starters, mobile games often jump towards loot boxes 😏

polar relic
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ttheres a reason jagex design the game and not you

wooden pecan
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Yes, and jagex would never design content for mobile players

hollow sable
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And you should be proud of that.
Im not saying it cant be done.
Im saying that the more difficult platform to play on shouldn't be used to ballence the game for everyone. If everything is made easier through game ballence for mobile. Things become wildly to easy for people on PC

cunning apex
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Man im using mobile too, but i cant say 4 revo slots would make it unplayable. Im also not saying they should do it, but i can see how people are not getting into manual as long as revo exists the way it does right now

polar relic
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desktop had same amount of MTX

cunning apex
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Why are we talking abput mtx right now

polar relic
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the games combat has ALWAYS BEEN AFK lol and it upsets you after 25years

wooden pecan
polar relic
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yeah it changed and they gave option for afk or itensive. choice. simple.

hollow sable
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Some content. yes. But people shouldent be afking there way through end game bosses. Thats what its become.

wooden pecan
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Yes and hopefully they make changes to entice players to get more active/engaged in combat

polar relic
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says who, you lol? I play the game how I like, i dont dictate how you should play - no one should be forced into manual lol

wooden pecan
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Designing combat for afk players is an interesting take

hollow sable
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Says the devs and anyone that has understands game ballence.

polar relic
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weird its been available for so long then lol.

cunning apex
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Cant say thread is going to be borring any soon xd

random pine
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Ok y'all, this is not productive in any way. Let's move on from debating each other. This thread is for feedback, not to try to change others' minds

hollow sable
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Same thing could be said about Th and auras.
They where in the game for years but now they're gone
Best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. Second best time is now.

polar relic
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i disagree. moving on.

hollow sable
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Agreed.

random pine
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👏

polar relic
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jagex can you add a mode for revo to auto trigger abiities based on stacks

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and fix buff bar

hollow sable
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So like bloodlust stacks and such?

wooden pecan
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I would be interested to see where players would draw a line on what revo can do

polar relic
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yeah and necro, macros are popular in the game - so his just adds official method, instead of some players using them

hollow sable
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I think for necro a better way to visualise stacks is needed.
Soul stacks are fine its just necrosis stacks are a pain to find in the list of buffs

polar relic
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yeah buff bar is a mess, they shouldnt move so much or drop off

hollow sable
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I filterd alot of the buff icons out to make it a little easier. But its still so cluttered
shaped icons would help instead of evrything being in boxes

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That or icons in fixed locations

polar relic
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cant wait for api thing might be the fix lol

hollow sable
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API is guna change alot.

cunning apex
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Is api runelite for rs3?

hollow sable
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Runelite currenly has it.
Rs3 is slated to get API this year some time

cunning apex
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So there will be tile markers etc on rs3? Am i understanding this correct? Sry im just not familiar with the term

hollow sable
cunning apex
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I see

tall gale
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tile markers would be such a useful tool for helping me teach people certain fights

spice coral
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What do you even need tile markers for is rs3? Especially with Sanctum telegraphing being back-ported to older bosses soon, there’s very little you’d need to mark tiles for.

shell herald
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It would make it much easier at Sanctum to teach someone new where to stand. The floor is designed pretty well that the gold square is best, but where's the best spot for the dogs or for the p4 expanding waves?

static knoll
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or amascut for where to stand during the same floor mech, would allow you to stand in a spot to have minimal movement.

also useful for afk training for mob aggroing etc

shell herald
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Even back to older bosses,
Pillars at AG or bleeds/scops/vit at Vorago or waves for Zuk

spice coral
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I just hope that Menu Entry Swapper is added this year. Probably the biggest QoL plugin that will ever be added.

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True Tile will be massive too, and hopefully way easier and faster to implement.

tall gale
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i just want them to help people with astellarn, for black puddle placement if they get the bar

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you'd think it'd be easy to just stand on the damn grate lines but newbies find new ways to mess up the puddle placement in progressively cursed ways

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in some fights I would probably just use them to denote pull range

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though realistically pull ranged could be denoted better by also using floor geometry. Astellarn is very close to the boss so you can get in his face without pulling but then you get to ambassador and it's way further out than you'd expect

clear tide
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What time do the changes go live?

shell herald
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roughly 11:30 gt

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Usual game update time

keen ridge
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i do hope they walk back or change ultimatums. because i do not look forward to rolling for a 1/100 weapon perk

worthy shell
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Are they rolling out the 120 combat update as well? Doesn’t that mean zerker auras are being removed at the same time?

shell herald
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yea

misty locust
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they hate you

golden wolf
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because it's 1am which would be a strange time for an update

wise tusk
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I'll tell you what if tomorrow the combat release is dropped with the current ammo consumption and no fletching fixes to be seen for iron, I'm deffinitely unsubbing instantly because this was by far the biggest oversight to kill off range for Ironmen.

odd stream
wise tusk
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every arrow type after level 50 requires 90+ fletching or 85+ slayer and still 90+ fletching

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They are going to completely kill off iron man mid game range tomorrow on release with current 200 - 500 minimum arrow an hour consumption rates.

wicked warren
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We should in-theory have a new max combat level right?

misty locust
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should be 157 with 120 defense

hollow oar
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What was the previous?

misty locust
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152 with 120 necromancy

frigid zodiac
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Defence doesn’t go up, so max combat should stay the same this update.

misty locust
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oh yeah I forgot they only show real levels when you drink a boost potion

wicked warren
frigid zodiac
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It’s the max between atk + str, range, magic and necro.

mint kelp
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First thing ima do after update is kittyscut, seehow good or how bad the update is

sterile forum
mint kelp
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Mage is stupid broken in live game tbh, to what ive been reading it improves with the update so lets just hope lol

neon pawn
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Probably gonna do 1 range melee vorkath, maybe a range only Amascut, range melee aod

mint kelp
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Hybrid is going to be a mess on update, hopefully we can find steady rotations fast xp

sterile forum
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If strength is going 120, so mining damage will increase too?

neon pawn
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A huge focus for melee is basically the fact that it's basically a "use when boss is low hp" style, which is perfect for hybridding in a way XD

hollow oar
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You know, I just realized that Spear might be a good off-style weapon to carry because of that bleed on Dismembers.

Does it require you to stay on Melee?

sterile forum
sinful rock