#Combat Styles Improvements - Ranged Beta.

1 messages · Page 4 of 1

vale palm
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which is a bad solution

open bloom
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you can pass pizza phase starting with 0 adren and using 0 movement abilities

timid olive
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you'll fail it because you didn't do that, because you didn't know what it was

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you don't know what abilities are doing that, you just autofired your way through the rest of it

vale palm
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inclusivity is properly teaching the game, not trivializing it

open bloom
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you'd have enough adren for bloat for the 2nd minion by killing the first minion

static lintel
civic tree
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this is what I'm trying to eventually get to but we're stuck on "it's this guy's fault for doing it wrong so he should shut up"

open bloom
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thats literally a worse case scenario lol, a learner usually isn't going to be going in with 0 adren and 0 movement abilities

timid olive
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and you had to fight the 3 minions to get that far, so it was telegraphed already. Faux doing Zuk on leagues and refused to read the popups was hilarious

vale palm
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the point was not "it's this guy's fault"

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it's always the player's fault

empty frigate
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The reality is that people who fail pizza phase are either not ready for zuk, not lvled appropriately, or not using the right types of abilities (knowledge of the phase itself). Jagex literally designed zuk to be a gut check

vale palm
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unless something is literally undoable

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if it's doable, being unable to do it is your fault

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you figure out how to do it

timid olive
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zuk also has checkpoints

empty frigate
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Nm sent me raging when it was released. It was trivial once I understood why I was failing. Yes you can do it. No, its not because the boss is badly designed.

timid olive
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you die and go back in

open bloom
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yeah sorry I get elitism is a genuine problem in the pvm community but you can also go too hard in the other direction and end up with the gaming equivalent of british food

vale palm
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I'm not a therapist, I'm not going to make sure my words aren't too mean or too "elitist", simply my point is your problem with the game is in how complex it might be to do your rotation or the explanation of mechanics

timid olive
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pizza time with 55% hitchance was kind of butt clenchy

image.png
vale palm
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in that case, solutions should be pointed towards those problems

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not "remove the dps check"

open bloom
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should have tribridded for pizza phase to exploit their weaknesses :x

timid olive
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especially because it meant blowing all resources on it instead of zuk, so there was a lot of pizza time

civic tree
timid olive
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so it was "win it several times in a row"

vale palm
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it isn't a mindset

civic tree
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for any other type of game it's essentially saying you can't criticize the game design at all unless it's literally impossible

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something can be both doable and have issues

vale palm
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which is not what's happening

open bloom
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you can absolutely criticize mechanics

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but not all criticism is inherently valid

timid olive
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Look, I get it. I don't like over-reliance on "DPS" as a mechanic and focus for everything. I don't like how feast/famine a lot of things are where they're so OP the option is always "disable it" like defensives or poison. The idea that it's fun to have mechanics have multiple solutions is a valid one.

But so far the examples have been really weak, along with the types of solutions proposed

civic tree
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I can agree with that but what I'm trying to do is examine rakushael's issue with pizza time and see if there is an actual problem there

empty frigate
timid olive
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the actual problem is not disabling the minion armor on pizza time

vale palm
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I said that to illustrate that I find no point in going out of my way to blame a player for being unable to do something, it's always the players fault if something is doable so you should be completely skipping the part about blame and instead focus on solutions

open bloom
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to even approach that conversation I would need to see a vieo of him doing pizza time so we can identify potential problems, either with the game or with his approach

timid olive
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at high levels you have the numbers to clear it easily, unless they have massive DR and heal thousands per second

civic tree
empty frigate
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You can def keep at it but imo, lvl up and get higher tier gear and give it a second go later on

timid olive
open bloom
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also in order to even reach pizza phase you need to have already disabled minion armors on the wave phases

civic tree
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I think there is a legitimate issue with players not realizing how the armor mechanic works and there not being enough visual clarity towards that

timid olive
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it also soloed zam, ambassador, raksha, etc

open bloom
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so you inherently already know how to do it

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unless you just dumb lucked your way to zuk

vale palm
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theres a little message in the chatbox

civic tree
vale palm
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i think that's it

timid olive
vale palm
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but also that means that he skimmed through videos

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which, understandable, guides are long

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he could have just read it on the wiki though, some people just don't like to read

civic tree
vale palm
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but with all that said, the game should communicate it better

civic tree
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yes

empty frigate
timid olive
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if you're revoing you'll probably accidentally break the armor

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because your bar will stun and use thresholds

empty frigate
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I am embarrassed by how brute forced I did things then

open bloom
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I find with people that have legitimate problems with pizza phase its often getting overwhelmed by making small mistakes that snowball into larger ones, like surging in the wrong direction and then dying to flames, or not killing minions before their shields come back

civic tree
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I think the minions should just be straight up immune if you don't do the mechanic

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or take 1 damage or whatever

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I think if that were the case, far few players would run up against it as a big roadblock

vale palm
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i think a popup message when they're healing and another popup message when you do the thing right is good enough

open bloom
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I'm curious exactly how many people DO run into it as a major roadblock, but idk how easy that would be to measure

civic tree
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as it is now I get the impression that a lot of people go in and dps their heart out without doing the mechanic and they think it's just a really hard dps check

static lintel
# empty frigate Nm sent me raging when it was released. It was trivial once I understood why I w...

My point is this. Bossing is currently barely more than a checklist on a clock. There's a reason Runescape traditionally has such an issue with botting, and honestly, if a boss is easier to train a bot at than a player, there's a problem.

Taking on a boss and learning the thing shouldn't need to be a 'here's 100 things you could do perfectly. choose 80 of them or die' type of checklist mechanism.

GWD2 bosses are learnable, and the approach you can use is fairly open-ended. Damage isn't gentle if you screw up, but it gives you the opportunity to learn without DPS checks killing you off for the first 50 attempts you screw up.

Nothing else about the Zuk fight is particularly challenging. That we're gatekeeping the kill based on the DPS component of pizza phase is frustrating, from a learning perspective. (particularly when the pizza was invisible. That wasn't fun, but not really relevant atm).

vale palm
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back when I did zuk, the problem was actually just the dps itself, I knew all the mechanics. As soon as I got gconc i just autowon it

timid olive
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Damage isn't gentle if you screw up
yeah it is

civic tree
empty frigate
vale palm
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there's that too

timid olive
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to the point that a ton of loadouts resulted in afking with basic lifesteal

vale palm
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actually I remember watching some osrs players doing zuk in leagues

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they pretty often did not read any popups

open bloom
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ngl the idea that a bot being better at a boss than a player doesn't follow. bots can perfectly replicate rotations and actions, players at best can mostly perfectly do that

vale palm
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in particular even the notably knowledgeable and "earnestly trying rs3" streamers did not know the igneous mechanics

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they actually just stumbled through it

civic tree
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precisely

timid olive
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I feel like you can conjure and AA pizza phase to death at the high levels described

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if you take out the shields

open bloom
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you pretty much can

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bloat + deathmark melts the 2nd minion

timid olive
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which means it's not "dps" so much as "do the mechanic"

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and "doing the mechanic" is what's requested, with less "it's just dps"

empty frigate
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Thankfully, with 120 this will become even easier with other styles!

open bloom
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idk I genuinely don't think there are any required DPS checks in RS3 that are actually that insane, they all have a ton of room for forgiveness

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look at grandmaster kills if you want to see what having no tolerance for mistakes actually looks like

empty frigate
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Dps checks can also be brutal when introduced tbf.

open bloom
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(even then you have a little but that's beside the point lol)

vale palm
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if we're going all the way, I'm not against the game literally hilighting stuns, thresholds, and making the floor under the igneous mage shield shine and blink or add an arrow respectively

open bloom
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yeah

timid olive
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you could get a message from the minion if you're not breaking the shield

open bloom
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graardor is kinda just chilling outside of the arena, he could yell shit at you to tell you how to deal with the mechanics

timid olive
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"maybe an impact or stunning force could crack its armor"
"maybe a strong attack can weaken it"
"Its barrier protects it from distant attacks"

vale palm
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add yellow paint and AAA player character breathy voicelines to explain the game

open bloom
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no

vale palm
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"If I use a stun on the monster, that should weaken it!"

open bloom
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the second the PC gets voice acted is the second I quit

empty frigate
static lintel
vale palm
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"Huh... it seems this floor is dangerous to stand in... I should find a safe place to avoid getting burned!"

static lintel
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or if the direction my character is facing isn't the direction he chooses to surge. Go figure.

open bloom
timid olive
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you don't have the same adrenaline reliance other styles have

open bloom
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but what I'm hearing is "I should never die no matter what I do or how badly I fail"

timid olive
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you don't have the same cooldown issues they have

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you don't have the short range of melee

vale palm
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"It seems TzKal-Zuk is draining my maximum hp, reducing my healing and making the fight more dangerous... I gotta find out what's up with that and restore it!"

timid olive
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after a few panicked tries or reading a guide you don't need surge either

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you can just run

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the topic was "the dps check is too much"

static lintel
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Yeesh. I'm just trying to infer that if someone wants to go 4 rounds with Zuk to get the kill while shield tanking, that should be a thematically viable option. Hella gatekeeping, folks =/

vale palm
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that isn't gatekeeping at all

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we just don't like the idea

open bloom
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I think zuk should just give me the cape without fighting because I'm thematically very charismatic

vale palm
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like sueros, he was just so awesome zuk gave him a cape and asked if he could learn from him

empty frigate
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Death grasp goes hard

static lintel
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Admittedly, with Zuk, and the cape as a guaranteed drop, I kinda get where the frustration comes from. But that's easily fixeable by saying you only get the cape IF x, y, z.

For the rest of it? Nah. Make the thing learnable.

open bloom
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what are you learning then?

timid olive
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completely learnable

vale palm
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no dps check and 50% damage reduction doesn't make it learnable

open bloom
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if you need to do X Y Z to get the cape, but you don't do X Y Z to get the kill, you aren't learning what you need to learn are you

vale palm
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what's the point in the encounter having checkpoints if there's nothing in it that you have to try at over and over until you get it?

timid olive
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to keep this on the topic of the beta: don't do this gnomechildblush

vale palm
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i do wonder if any encounter changes are planned to be part of the beta

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imagine if they push vorkath changes to the beta

timid olive
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if they weren't already made, probably not

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they're revamping 3 styles

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vork can come later in that regard

open bloom
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ngl I wish they would use betas way more often

timid olive
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same way defensives probably would be lower priority too, "I can hit enemies properly" is number 1 focus of an entry level player

open bloom
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also tbh, the same problems you brought up earlier would apply if you could like barricade pizza phase or whatever

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like if you don't have adren or movement

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you still get your flesh melted long before you can save yourself with cade

sacred minnow
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It is tho im not on pc right now but it's a 57% accuracy increase compared to 99

In the beta at least

open bloom
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I literally went on myself to check exactly what it is and it's like ~20-25% compared to live with no reckless and much less than that compared to live with reckless

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no idea where you're even getting 57% from and you haven't explained that yet yourself

sacred minnow
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Without pots/aura if you just compare 99 vs 120

open bloom
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sigh

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live without aura

Hitchance_-_Live_no_reckless.png
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is 6158 57% higher than 5002?

timid olive
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in beta you can set your level too to directly compare

open bloom
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I mean

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I'm assuming this guy is 99 ranged on live

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otherwise why are we even discussing it

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like obviously going from idk 70 ranged to 120 is going to be a big increase, surprising exactly nobody

timid olive
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maybe if you have a 120 weapon?

open bloom
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maybe, but the beta doesn't include t120 weapons

civic tree
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A lower tier weapon would make a bigger comparative difference I guess

open bloom
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I guess? but then what would even be the point he was trying to make?

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going from lower tier weapons and stats to BIS weapons and 120 is a big difference? thanks sherlocke

timid olive
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clearly they're going to give a 120 masterworkerest bow in HH gnomechildblush

vale palm
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120s good, i don't fully care about building out abilities/combat actions or equipment beyond 95 any time soon but the former would sure be cool

open bloom
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eh ngl I don't love abilities being locked behind higher levels, unless they're niche/sidegrades to lower level abilities

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imo 85 for sun and ds is already too high

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compared to like 44 for zerk

vale palm
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since everyone under the sun is acting like levels beyond 99 are a massive hurdle, good excuse to add some inherent stuff to level unlocks to the triangle styles like necromancy does

open bloom
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dps rotations at low/mid levels feel awful

vale palm
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until i see them try to address that im not holding my breath tbh

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maybe some utility things or use it as an avenue to address certain problems e.g the way so much power is tied up specifically in items, while that is part of runescape's identity, they've gone too far in many cases

open bloom
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eofs are the biggest offender

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ngl

vale palm
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like temporal anomaly and animate dead are kind of essentially level unlocks

open bloom
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I think the game would genuinely be healthier if they deleted eofs

vale palm
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darkness as well

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but if you asked me years ago I would expect melee and ranged aspects to come from boss drops

timid olive
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nothing wrong with level unlocks, but "this is what the style is about" is bad if it's that late

open bloom
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yeah thats the trap I want to avoidd

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abilities that feel essential to the style should not be late unlocks

vale palm
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oh yeah im switching gears to level unlocks in general, not necessarily super high level ones

timid olive
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and that's what they've tried to change a bit about this revamped ranged

vale palm
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like vigour passive being an item that later became a passive if you purchase it

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as much as i'd hate taking away rewards from dg, level unlock with any style at 80 or so?

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70?

open bloom
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could be a progressive unlock, i.e. at 25/50/75/100/120 ults cost 2/4/6/8/10% less

timid olive
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vigor should be 10% of original cost, not 10 adren flat

open bloom
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isn't it already?

vale palm
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a lot of older players like having unlock that are 50k miles away from usual gameplay but to the typical player that just means that they'll have to look it up or get told that when someone asks them why their dps is so low

civic tree
open bloom
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oh for bolstered ults

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yeah idk

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also support for buffing meta lol

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25 sec duration imo

civic tree
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Killing enemies during meta makes them explode in an elemental explosion :)

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Great for training

open bloom
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ranged should also get a mobile ult, dumb that the thematically agile and nimble rangers are the only ones to get locked down in a 7x7 box with no alternative

vale palm
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honestly i think ranged should go full mobile

static lintel
# open bloom if you need to do X Y Z to get the cape, but you don't do X Y Z to get the kill,...

Tell me this: How many bosses, at the time of Zuk's release, required skillfull movement ability use? ie: surging to a specific location to survive.
How many bosses, at the time of Zuk's release, required you to stun some creatures, overpower others, and 'melee-distance' others still?
How many bosses had debuffs you had to purge by using movement abilities?

And so on, for every mechanic.

Each mechanic on its own is easy, and never strongly punished for failure or alternative solutions. Chain them together, and you have Pizza phase.

In essence, what opportunity did your 'average' player, trying to PVM Zuk to get the cape, have to learn the requisite combined skillset?

And yet it was well done. I'm not complaining about any of that.

I'm complaining about the one-shot kill that takes that existing learning curve and says 'now do it all, do it faster than you've ever had reason to try to do, do it all right, or die'.

It'd be like learning to drive on a zamboni, only to be suddenly thrown into an F1 car, while the track's on fire.

So perhaps my issue is less the one-shot kill, and more the sudden time constraint of pizza phase... but the one shot kill is the piece that feels out of place to me.

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And as El Natural points out 'To Keep This On Topic'

I never meant for this to go this far down the rabbit hole on defensives. I proposed a broader idea for Combat Identity, and y'all figured this was the topic to tear into, this is where the line in the sand needed to be drawn.

Not on learning the mechanics, the means of which would be completely changed by everything about this beta/future such revamps.

Not on levelling up skills or getting equipment, which we've agreed are both hypothetically bypassable.

You guys drew the line at 'making Death slightly more avoidable in some way for some bosses' so that more players could enjoy the content in some way.

And I find that... ... strangely discouraging, that this is the topic you felt was so imperative to throw down on.

open bloom
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jfc I was just about to go to bed

vale palm
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i want to see endgame rangers moving around constantly in boss arenas instead of their necklace slot changing every 2 seconds

open bloom
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no you know what I AM just about to go to bed, will continue this convo tomorrow if you're around though lol

civic tree
static lintel
static lintel
vale palm
civic tree
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Rakushael I do think they were too aggro in the discussion earlier but I also think the reasoning for their disagreeing with making it blockable via defensives is sound.

vale palm
civic tree
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Pizza phase could use improvement to make it more learnable but making defensives an answer is not how I would go about it either

vale palm
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like other mechanics, such as nex's ice prison, was doable before but way more now with powerbursts, and I think that's okay; but zuk's pizza phase mechanic is kind of an important part of a pvm progression journey and I don't really like a game where you can stumble or bruteforce throughout everything

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it kinda just makes the overall experience worse in my opinion

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other mechanics that are basically dps checks, like phase 7 of zamorak, I'd defend less

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but I don't think the solution to that is being able to ignore it either

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ignorable mechanics are the biggest problem I have with zamorak really

timid olive
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zamorak being a skippable boss is a bigger issue

static lintel
# civic tree Rakushael I do think they were too aggro in the discussion earlier but I also th...

I agree in part; the context wherein Cade blocks 100% of the damage is obviously problematic. I'm not proposing that. And I prefer the idea where the damage dealt scales down with the number of mechanics you have solved.

So lets propose a new Zuk 'instant kill' alternative:
Base damage 100k.
each NPC you kill reduces that damage by 33% when you click the action button.
So if you get 2 of the 3, and need to panick Cade, you can (Cade reducing a further percentage, but not the full amount)

I would have a bigger issue with the cape upgrade being so easily obtainable if all the prior steps hadn't already undergone so many changes over the years. Protection prayers being nerfed changes Jad.

vale palm
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if dps checks are a hurdle to defensive gameplay, there's already an age old solution to that in fantasy but runescape basically has that all in a single ability, revenge, I think there should be more defensive gameplay based on revenge to get through dps checks but it should require engaging with the game rather than having all its eggs in the passive damage reduction basket

civic tree
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In fairness I do think it's worth pushing back on the notion that smart defensive usage is "trivializing" or "just pressing 1 button to win"

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Playing defensive in RS tanks the hell out of your DPS and often ends up with a harder fight overall

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You heal less, the boss has more time to push your shit in, it can be hard to do it right

vale palm
static lintel
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I agree. But there's plenty of balancing to that.

In the situation I just proposed, you're looking at 33k damage still coming in before Cade/similar. even a 75% reduction on that is 8k damage. So you're going to need either full health or a vitality bomb in conjunction with Cade, which requires adrenaline.

Not quite as simple as a single button press.

civic tree
static lintel
timid olive
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and this scenario ignores other forms of damage mitigation

static lintel
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I didn't start this part of the conversation with the intention of solving specific bosses here and now; the intention was to say 'Hey! I'd like Jagex to explore an alternative to this that doesn't eventually render many Defensive skills as dead content'.

Getting dragged into it to this degree was not my goal. I believe the problem is solveable in a way that satisfies all sides of it, but I seem to be running into a wall of 'hard-pass' rather than collaborative conversation.

civic tree
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It be like that sometimes

timid olive
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This is such a specific case

static lintel
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Instead of shooting down the idea completely, would there be a damage value/more balanced approach you could see working for both sides of this?

timid olive
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there was already discussion on some telegraphing issues with zuk which is the actual core issue of people failing pizza time

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the general sentiment of "some mechanics should have multiple solutions" was fine

static lintel
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Agreed; though there's telegraphing issues with virtually everything in EoC

timid olive
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And instakills are used for "we want you to do the mechanic" things

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hard instakill even more so

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there's soft ones that you can actually bail out of with immort

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when Jagex gives too much leniency on "you can ignore it", it gets ignored, whether it's from too much damage output by the player, or too much durability, mostly from defensives

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Pizza time is Jagex going "we want you to engage with the minion shield breaking mechanics, and do some damage"

static lintel
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I mean, half the stuff Jagex builds these days has 'skippable mechanics' if you DPS high enough... which is also dumb imho

vale palm
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Current defensive play is already solid if you're looking at it purely from a "got the kill" perspective, in some cases very acceptable as far as kph goes (like when magic power armor wasn't much better than using cryptbloom), just lacking in depth beyond having to deal with more because the fight is longer.

static lintel
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dumb in the sense that it once again absolutely prioritizes DPS over doing the mechanics....
Which is kinda the polar opposite of allowing tanks to ignore the mechanics...

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irony is irony?

vale palm
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well, defensive here meaning using defensive abilities often and using animate dead

timid olive
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DPS skipping generally requires you to know what you're doing to a huge degree unless it's just powercreep

vale palm
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shields probably significantly less so, but I don't think it would be impossible?

civic tree
timid olive
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most "defensive" options end up being "I just don't die lol" without knowing

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but yes I'd prefer to see DPS pulled down including skips

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It was stupid that they allowed skipping ambassador's anti-skip

vale palm
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dps skippable stuff seemed to be a rejection of some older bosses having timegates, but I think the problem with those bosses was just how much time they wasted when getting through their phases became more trivial...

timid olive
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I'm perfectly comfortable with shields and tank gear and putting adrenaline into defensives instead of DPS being more manageable safer viable kills.

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The "rework instakills into non-threats" is not that, especially with weak examples like pizza time

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same for "make shield damage output even worse necessitating actually unkillable damage reduction on them passively for free"

static lintel
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I guess my goal with shields overall is more an aim to make them viable/useable/practical as a legitimate option for some players, without making them OP.

Right now, aside from use as a switch, shields are dead content for most gameplay.

timid olive
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correct, and that sucks. It's the wrong direction though. The damage loss should be less, and the damage reduction improved on most shields to mathematically be viable, but if the damage loss is less that mathematical tipping point doesn't have to be broken

static lintel
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Many games invest too much in power creep without exploring fair drawbacks to things; I saw this as a fair proposal to encourage shields as an option for learning, without just making them broken. But I can also appreciate where that line starts to be problematic, from a skill perspective.

timid olive
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they tried that by making shields busted for defense through abilities

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the result was people used the bare minimum

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and people complained about needing the swap, so bone shield was made for the casuals

static lintel
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Well yes, but that basically brings us full circle to 'cade is broken, so Jagex bypasses it instead of fixing it'

timid olive
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it's not just cade

static lintel
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which brings us back to 'how can we fix defense, even though the main topic of this thread is ranged'

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yes, yes, I'm oversimplifying.

timid olive
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the lack of balance between armor, shields, defensives, passives, etc is its own big issue, where parts of it feel bad because the others provide so much that they aren't needed

static lintel
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Point was, I made a short list of the general direction I'd like to see Combat as a whole go, by way of better exploring how Ranged could be better improved than this Beta has offered thus far (great steps yes, adequate steps, not yet).

That list was intended as a framing device, not a 'lets dive into the minutia for several hours on defense'

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So lets respin this conversation slightly. Several people have inferred that they like the idea of a movement-based theme for Ranged.

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How would a movement-based theme like this function with Instant-kills, in their current form?

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Would existing boss mechancs make this impossible? Punish players unfairly for what we might agree is a positive gameplay direction?

timid olive
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you die

static lintel
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Well, exactly.

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So if we bring that back around to 'instant kills don't need to be instant-kills, is there perhaps a solution whereby the combat style chosen is allowed its own 'unique' answer to certain mechanics?

timid olive
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it's not punishing you unfairly for not doing the mechanic

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this is literally just a reframe on "why can't I survive the instakill with defensives on a shield" but now "ranged dodging it"

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you aren't i frame dodge rolling the exploding room

static lintel
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righto, agreed, but in theory, the space beneath Zuk isn't going to be as on-fire, yeah?

timid olive
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no he just crushes you

static lintel
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Okay, so, circle back with me here. That's all fine and good. But IF:

Magic or Melee don't enjoy the same movement perks as Ranged; perhaps even suffering a drawback comparatively, in terms of total DPS

Then building Ranged as a movement style potentially screws over the other two combat styles if they can no longer satisfy the mechanics of Zuk, due to movement limitations or changes in specific DPS.

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Similarly, if Ranged were given chief priority on Poison Damage as a critical part of its identity, it would suddenly become a net DPS reduction vs poison immune bosses.

civic tree
timid olive
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not all styles are equal for everything

#

and shouldn't be

static lintel
#

Agreed. But we're talking about Zuk, apparently, and how critical he is for combat progression, because of the cape.

vale palm
#

this was normal preoc (though overtuned in melee's favor) and in osrs

static lintel
#

If it is aggressively harder for one or more combat styles to complete critical content, I think we'd agree that's a problem.

timid olive
#

there's a good design in having multiple solutions to a problem, but not every time if it's meant to undermine the mechanic itself

#

you don't have to beat zuk with every style btw gnomechildblush

civic tree
#

I'd be chill with normal mode pizza time being blockable. But at some point they gotta take the training wheels off

timid olive
#

they will never come off if you do that

static lintel
#

So if we like movement/agility tie-ins for Ranged, we need to consider how the alternatives impact the same game space

vale palm
#

such as, not being agile might be a bit of a detriment, but being agile is a pretty big plus

static lintel
#

Well, one of the core abilities with Magic is Sunshine. Which involves standing still. Which is not compatible with Pizza phase.

timid olive
#

we have so many training wheels it's not a bike anymore, it's a metallic wheeled millipede

#

the wolf can't blow it over

vale palm
#

this would, inadvertently, kind of make ranged suffer in situations where a boss is complex to the point where most people would not be able to handle the boss while doing the agile ranged tech, but this is already often the case with high level play

static lintel
#

If Ranged zeros in on movement, Magic could realistically lock in on 'building a magic bubble'. Which would not be compatible with movement-requisite mechanics.

vale palm
#

i also conceived that the sniper substyle jagex mentioned would involve explicitly not doing that

civic tree
#

It can be pretend movement e.g. "dodge chance" and "deflection"

vale palm
#

and yeah I also think there should be a magic substyle that focuses on channeling; the current crit build is already kind of in this camp

#

channeler's ring, gconc, sunshine being somewhat movement restrictive, the heavy emphasis on asphyxiation at the endgame. a full realization would involve some mutated abilities

static lintel
# vale palm i also conceived that the sniper substyle jagex mentioned would involve explicit...

I like the idea of subclassing, but in terms of weapon-specific buffs/changes, not ability rotations inherently.

ie: 2h crossbow = good sniper. Buff that snipe. Buff it all the way. Only while not moving.

But even snipers move between shots, to avoid return fire.

Throwing knves should have a flanking/backstab effect. Etc, etc.

Subclass through the weapon choice, instead of these silly 'slight DPS change' special attacks, make the specs change how you play the game

static lintel
vale palm
civic tree
#

I like playing pretend, it's why I play runescape gnomechildblush

static lintel
timid olive
#

it's RS, some of it has to be pretend, otherwise the whole game would actually be dive reset every attack

#

even the idea of armor and hitting 0s was always "it wasn't a clean blow"

static lintel
#

Anyone else feel that dual wield needs to be multi-targetted, higher accuracy, lower damage, while 2h weapons should be higher damage, lower accuracy, single target for the most part?

Not really fond of these 'ground-pound' style AoE melee attacks, or big twangy things not just punching a hole through the large obvious target.

civic tree
static lintel
#

Not huge differences in damage/accuracy, but like, a slight preference*

civic tree
#

Different weapons ought to feel different

#

On SOME level at least

static lintel
#

Agreed

timid olive
#

I want to see abilities that change with weapon type

static lintel
#

And spinning whirlwind style with a 2h sword just makes me laugh.

timid olive
#

like merging Havoc and Smash into Havoc, and it just does something different between 2h/dw/1h

static lintel
#

*Spinning a 2h Weapon is, real world-wise, more about creating distance (non-damaging knock-back?) than it is about hitting anyone. The idea that spinning in a circle with it outstretched is going to hit multiple opponents, cut through each of them, and keep going for another rotation is... silly and unnecessary.

Replace most AoE melee attacks with 'taunt' abilities that encourage more enemies to come closer, and let dual-wielding stick multiple targets with the pointy end.

#

Ranged -

2h - Big hits, single target, higher damage bonus, single-target oriented.
Dual Wield - Multi Target / Multi strike, no offhand damage reduction
Mainhand & Shield - Significant incoming damage reduction (easier to learn bosses but significantly longer kill times) - Very much still up for discussion
Throwing knives - Flanking buff built directly into the base weapons (educational for players without needing invention)
Arrows - Bleed Chance (target takes increased damage while moving)
Bolts - Higher Crit Chance
Explosive - Aoe or Knockback chance.

Prioritize ammo special effects & poisoning, encourage swapping ammo on the fly to create desired effects. Encourage builds that deliberately want to move around during combat.
-Cooldown reductions and/or adrenaline gain from surge/escape/dive
-Damage or accuracy bonus on abilities like 'snipe' based on a greater distance from target, if you're standing still.
-Dramatic weakness to melee attacks (encourages keeping your distance)

#

Magic -

Staff - Big hits, multi-target, higher damage bonus, single-target oriented.
Wand & Book/Orb - Single target, increased chance of secondary effects, no offhand damage reduction
Wand & Shield - Significant incoming damage reduction (easier to learn bosses but significantly longer kill times)
Air - Chance to Knockback
Water - Chance to heal caster
Earth - Chance to Stun
Fire - Chance to Damage over Time
Smoke - Chance to raise caster's defence/evasion
Dust - Chance to knockback
Blood - Chance to heal caster
Ice - chance to stun/freeze target

Encourage manual casting/swapping of spells; not just ability use.

Encourage builds that want to build up a location with effects like Sunshine (and other equivalents).
-Sphere of Safety - Reduces all damage taken while inside the sphere
-Sphere of Fire - Damage over time to all enemies within the sphere
-Aura Sphere - Guarantees all bonus spell effects within the sphere
-Sunshine - Increases DPS while inside the sphere
-Dramatic weakness to Ranged attacks (encourages using defensive 'shield' spells)

#

Melee -

2h - Big hits, single target, higher damage bonus, single-target oriented.
Dual Wield - Multi Target / Multi strike, no offhand damage reduction
Mainhand & Shield - Significant incoming damage reduction (easier to learn bosses but significantly longer kill times)
Dagger - Flanking buff
Blade - Bleed Chance (target takes increased damage while moving)
Blunt - Knockback and/or stun chance
Pierce - Higher Crit Chance
Halberd - Knockback & Bleed

No more ground-pound or spin style AoE; if you want to deal damage, gotta stick'em with the pointy end. Add a Taunt/Aggression style revolution-useable melee action, to compensate for reduced AoE mob-attraction.

Encourage builds that deliberately want to react to incoming attacks:
-introduce anticipate or reflect/counter-style melee abilities that don't require a shield
-Successfully anticipating/reflecting/countering an incoming attack significantly increases damage from your next attack
-Dramatic weakness to Magic attacks (encourages use of defensive/anticipate-style abilities)

#

Hmm. Seem to have flipped my preference for accuracy/damage on the 2h weapons from my draft, yesterday. I think I started with 'higher Damage' on the 2h weapons, but considered that if dual-wielding was oriented for multi-target, then the odds are they wouldn't need to bypass boss-levels of defense as much as 2h versions do...

And that defence cares more about accuracy than damage components of weapons, if I recall correcltly?

#

Necromancy -

Encourage conjures as a primary means of combat. Create channelled spells/abilities that dramatically increase conjure damage, instead of dealing damage yourself. Create better control-style spells, to direct your minions on what to attack.
Right now Necromancy just feels like 'Magic 2.0' with friends. Encouraging an (optional) focus on the summons aspect of the skill will grant it a stronger identity.

civic tree
#

I get what people mean with the "necro feels like magic 2" but I don't really feel like I want it to be all that different

static lintel
#

Defence -

~~Replace all instant-kill boss mechanics with a damage type that does not undermine defensive abilities. 'Immortality' and 'Barricade' should work in all situations. Not just 'whenever a dev decided their boss was too epic for that'. These mechanics so often force players to exclusively prioritize DPS, instead of being able to use a more defensive build/strategy.
Increase the vulnerabilities as described above from the original 'combat triangle', in order to encourage player engagement with combat without it just being about 'maximising DPS'. ~~
(Subject to further discussion)

Reduce the availability of auto-healing abilities such as Vampirism, to decrease the amount of AFK PVM plaguing the game. Food is good.

timid olive
#

it'd make more sense if it leaned more into spending resources on the conjures with more commands and such for them

static lintel
# civic tree I get what people mean with the "necro feels like magic 2" but I don't really fe...

Well, personally, I proposed a variant of Necromancy about a decade ago, called 'the Mystic Arts' ... which was an elite skill including Necromancy, Paladin, Bardic, Druidic, etc branches.

So I liked the idea of Necromancy feeling like magic, and druidic feeling like summoning...

But the current release version of Necromancy is just - yeah, what El Natural said.

Not against that being a playable option, but creating a 'channeled army buffing ability' or some such would give players the option to fully embrace the summoner-identity it's kinda only playing at, presently.

civic tree
#

I suppose it could have more focus on commands

#

Like if each conjure had 2 commands instead of 1 and they were your main source of damage

timid olive
#

right now too many conjures are just a passive thing or "put on revo to keep spamming" for free damage

static lintel
#

it doesn't have to be a rework, just an alternative playstyle working with what's already there.

timid olive
#

and don't use anything

#

so they're just there on top of your normal necro rotation

#

which is dark magic

static lintel
#

exactly

timid olive
#

actually, by definition of how RS handles necromancy and "an alternative source of what we understand of magic", it IS dark magic

static lintel
#

frankly makes me miss Diablo 2

civic tree
#

I dislike minion builds in ARPGs so I think I just prefer the spooky magic lol

timid olive
#

like maybe "Command (conjure)" should be a doesn't-interact-with-GCD-at-all ability that causes you to have a pool of abilities that change depending on which one you're ordering around

static lintel
#

I think minion builds are generally unnecessary, but... well, if we're looking for unique identitys for each of the combat skills, minions are what Necromancy's got to build on.

#

Otherwise, Necromancy is literally Magic 2.0 with a really odd choice of Melee Bone Scythe when it's convenient.

civic tree
timid olive
#

so every conjure has 3 abilities, and you have 3 abilities on your bar, and whichever one you command is the one you're ttelling to use it

#

Command Skele, tell it to use action 2. Command ghost tell it to use action 1

static lintel
#

I want to be able to summon more than one of the same kind of minion, for starters. Cap of 3 may be gameengine-locked, but i should be able to have 3 ghosts if I want to.

timid olive
#

using adren/souls/etc as normal abilities

#

it's 4 cap

civic tree
#

4 ghosts would be hilarious

static lintel
#

aah okay, got 120 before Vorkath, haven't done much with it since

#

Would have to rebalance the healing factor of course, but yeah

timid olive
#

that aside, if you were using your GCDs on juggling commands for conjures and such, that'd mean another thing to focus on with necro instead of "these are passives while you death skulls"

#

and it'd be more unique

#

while still functional as "you can conjure them to passively support you" while doing spooky magic

static lintel
#

agreed, though I think we have to balance it to prevent tick-precise actions breaking the game, DPS wise

#

Would be interesting to have a conjur-command collect you the resources for death-skulls, etc

timid olive
#

I was only saying the choosing a conjure should ignore GCD

#

otherwise you'd be losing actions just choosing them

static lintel
#

so you're not doing the basic abilities yourself, generally, you're relying on your conjures, and then just doing a big blast on occassion

timid olive
#

commanding them to use an attack would still be your turn

vale palm
#

if i was in charge I'd add new abilities per conjure

#

direct <conjure>

#

it'd be like kerapac time clones

static lintel
#

I'd like more movement abilities that share a cooldown with surge/escape, but allow better control/target a location

#

but I guess we're getting slightly off topic again (i'm great at that)

vale palm
#

from the top of my head, I'd say each conjure would have a 4-5 ability pool with cooldowns, you can camp one conjure but it would be beneficial to direct more than one

#

on top of that I'd add a resurrect minion kind of thing, usable on normal mobs and boss adds

static lintel
#

So we (the 3 or 4 of us online, woopee, a full quorum) seem to agree on the general direction we want from ranged (movement-based mostly, with Snipe being an exception). Necromancy having some better (optional) conjure abilities. Melee as a parry/counterstrike gameplay experience.

Magic is still fairly open ended I think?

vale palm
#

I'd say make the minion do whatever it normally does, just against the boss (barring any bespoke mechanics that would be super wonky if that was the case), and it would be like using deathmark

timid olive
#

magic: spell effects

vale palm
#

spell effects and elemental stacks

static lintel
#

Magic - I'm not sure that I love my proposal of a location-centric 'build a magic bubble' approach. Definitely don't have an issue with the concept, but it may be very incompatible with certain bosses, and there may be a better overall feel we can achieve another way.

Spell effects, for sure... but are we prioritizing them over damage? Over AoE? Gotta be careful how that works out, but definitely not against the idea.

#

Do we need to reduce the number of arrow effects Ranged has, to prioritize 'extras' as Magic's unique ability? Or does 2 classes having some overlap make reasonable sense?

timid olive
#

ranged ammo stuff is mostly passive. Magic should be passives and impacting how you use some of your abilities, if not outright changing them. Even the Autoattack change in the beta lends itself well to that

static lintel
#

And how do we encourage spell effects? Do we slap them as a random chance on everything? Is there an adrenaline reward or DPS reward for hitting targts already affected?

If we're stunning NPCs more than other styles, is that resulting in a net defence increase without any DPS drawback?

vale palm
#

I'd say add stacks for every element and two spenders, one spender for damage one for a big spell effect

#

basic attack would be a 100% chance base effect, other abilities would be lower chance but higher effect

#

ogcd abilities that work like incantations to manipulate effect chance and potency

static lintel
#

Same question for Binding/Weaken spells. How do these effects translate to DPS, but more importantly, how do they translate to gameplay?

Melee, as we're proposing, wants to watch and specifically react to the opponents attacks to parry/counter.
Ranged wants to move to flank, dodge, or increase distance.

Both of those are engaging eyes-and-mouse-on-screen activities.

Pressing keybinds via your keyboard for magic is all that 'using a spellbook' so far entails.

Unless we begin giving Magic terrain-objects to play with (firewall, boulder, etc)? That would be hella fun, but probably harder to dev

civic tree
#

I just want cooler animations

static lintel
timid olive
#

the simplest rough draft for something like the beta would be a passive effect per spell category, and one ability that changes depending on what the spell is

vale palm
timid olive
#

so you'd have your passive, your AA, and one modular ability

#

and they can still keep some generic parts to it like your conc and wild magic or whatever

static lintel
#

Sounds good, so in theory, charge air 3 times, spend it to get a knockback. Charge earth 3 times, spend it to get a stun. Charge fire 3 times, spend it to get a burn. Charge water 3 times, spend it to get a heal?

Spend one of each on Omnipower to do all 4?

vale palm
#

visually i want nearly all magic abilities to change with active spell, with generic names that have prefix changes or unique names that are just thematic to the element "water blast, fire blast vs torrent, incinerate"

static lintel
#

I like the idea, not sure how dev-friendly it is, but that ain't a 'me' problem xD

vale palm
#

i'd expect omnipower to do more damage and maybe lower adrenaline req

#

magic already does this loosely with incite fear and tsunami

timid olive
#

no way all abilities change

#

that means 8 sets of abilities for magic, or more

vale palm
#

and again loosely, the stacks to unlock/mutate a high hitting ability (exsanguinate and wrack and ruin)

civic tree
timid olive
#

changing the color/some effects would be fine

vale palm
#

idk making icons and changing vfx colors is pretty easy

static lintel
vale palm
#

in some cases they have updated the base animations

civic tree
#

It's never laziness

#

It's always priorities and deadlines

vale palm
#

and while we're at it with icons...

static lintel
vale palm
#

nearly all of them need to be remade

#

for some ungodly reason a huge chunk of the initial eoc icons were made natively at very low resolution

#

you can check that some of the ones we have are like 60x60 and clearly upscaled from an even lower resolution

civic tree
#

That's the whole damn interface lol

vale palm
#

tsunami is one of the biggest offenders

civic tree
static lintel
#

I have a sneaking suspicion that the res of the whole interface system was upscaled at some point since EoC

#

and that many Icons have suffered as a result

vale palm
civic tree
vale palm
#

things like this make interface scaling so much worse

#

nearly every necro icon is 128x128

static lintel
#

Anywho.

I need to sleep. Staying up until 3:30 am the other night got me in trouble with Mod Easty. Lost a present, Raku thought he had. Wrong present. Le-derp.

Will never let myself live that one down.

civic tree
timid olive
#

didn't they do upscaled necro icons after launch and it threw people off

static lintel
timid olive
#

I actually think I like the old ones more in term of the design

#

bloat looked more rotten and decayed, now it's surprise

vale palm
#

at a glance it seemed to me the redesigns were a "this is downscaled to like 40% in the game" clarity thing

timid olive
#

better swirling mystical look compared to new blood's clean spiral

vale palm
#

actually its probably like 30x30 on the action bars?

#

comparing them zoomed out

#

speaking of spell effects, I wrote this up months ago but now I feel like there should be a more active element to these effects

20251223042058.png
timid olive
#

I've posted mine before (albeit I'd change and tweak some at this point) but yeah most of them would do better with an ability that either just does something, or specifically synergizes with the spell effect

barren bane
#

Bombardment vs snapshot
40% adren for 27k dmg w/ T95 vs 25% adren for 24k dmg w/ T75 chins
I feel like I'm choosing to use chins everytime for the adren efficiency?

image.png image.png
#

Not even thinking about the whole upwards of 160k dmg grico you can do with chins.

#

Bombardment is so weak.

image.png
#

Bombardment /w t95 vs grico /w T75 chins

image.png image.png
#

I just realised I was using ful arrows with the bolg

#

bombardment even worse than I thought.

vale palm
#

haha

barren bane
#

Worst feeling ever when you proc deathspores and you're nowhere near 100% adren.

image.png
mellow frigate
#

briefly on the discussion above: I think there's an assumption on the part of those arguing in favour of 'accessibility' (which I think is misused here; to my mind it relates to adjustments for disabilities and not to enabling completion of content at a lower skill level per se) that it is a problem for there to be any content which is not completable by a given player.

Very simply, I disagree with that point because of where it inevitably leads as much as anything else. I don't care to get involved on zuk specifically - I'm sure we can all agree that even in NM, zuk is quite a challenging boss. IMO, it becoming a bit more brute-forceable (if doable with no cost to the mechanical fun) is a total non-issue; and indeed, I've personally said I think the best approach to shields is as an aid to learning and I'd like to see the change to make shields tanky AF.

On the other hand, I think it is important to retain encounters which are challenging for moderate-high skill players, and those necessarily will probably not be possible for players below those brackets. That's the purpose of content progression though IMO - develop skills and move to harder content

silk quest
# mellow frigate briefly on the discussion above: I think there's an assumption on the part of th...

I think that as an eventuality, just about everything should be able to be gear-checked. It might take years for the content for a player who needs to use gear checking to complete the content due to less powerful gear being currently available, but as long as they eventually do it, and it doesn't prevent them from getting comp cape, I think it's fine. Maybe they never are able to get trimmed, and are never able to get grandmaster achievements due to difficulty... but they should be able to complete whatever current status the game is on the surface level.

E.g. everyone should be able to complete normal levels of a boss to be able to get fancy cape.
Fancy auras and what not can be exclusive to Grandmaster types of achievements, as there are other types of auras out there.

Just my opinion.

#

Basically, equipable items with actual utility -- able to be obtained by anyone regardless of their skill level eventually
Cosmetic flex, skill check.

mellow frigate
#

it is what it is - my gaming taste is kind of single-player-pilled so I tend to be fine with the idea of sometimes being filtered by difficulty and just moving on to a new game, or otherwise working really hard and feeling really good when I finally get through something

I think there's also a big question about what being able means. RS combat is weird in that it isn't really integrated into the early and mid game in a way which develops skill, so by the time someone's an endgame player in all other senses, they might realistically still be a few hundred hours of practice off being good enough to do the biggest bosses. I think that then plays into a lot of people not enjoying the combat - ebcause the early game totally fails to integrate combat, RS cultivates a playerbase which on average is a playerbase looking for a kind of game who may well not enjoy the kind of combat they encounter at the late game (and therefore not be willing to put a few hundo hours in)

hybrid moon
#

I play on a trackpad and my keybinds are an absolute mess. The only binds I have set are movement, food, deflect curses, and Soul Split, and they’re all on my dominant hand. I can only really focus on either clicking abilities on my bar for better DPS or on survival keybinds, not both at once. But even though I let Revo use my basics and I pretty much play with only one arm, I can still get (slow) kills at most bosses. I’ve managed kills on every boss I’ve seriously tried, although I’ve yet to start attempts on a few of the hardest ones.

#

What I mean to say is, the “skill floor” is really low compared to how high the “skill ceiling” is, which means the game is balanced well.

cunning tendon
#

Still wondering why I keep getting this message despite using the same tier as the type of ammo, and the off hand being the same type, if anyone ask, Primal bolts using the off-hand primal crossbow mk5

image.png
hybrid moon
#

Technically primal ammo scales up to tier 100 but eternal magic +5 is tier 90, it’s weird

cunning tendon
hybrid moon
#

But that message showing up is intentional, just unintuitive.

cunning tendon
#

Well, this is just a suggestion for the Jmods, add newer trees, to close the gaps for range weaponry, especially when adding for bolts, and crossbows

hybrid moon
cunning tendon
hybrid moon
#

I really doubt they’re ever going to bring out other Daemonheim resources since they can’t be alloyed like metals can

#

It makes sense to mix together the ten ores to make Primal, but you can’t really combine ten different trees to make Sagittarian for example.

cunning tendon
hybrid moon
#

Part of the fletching retier will be adding level 60 mahogany/orikalkum through level 90 elder wood/elder rune tier ranged weapons and ammo

cunning tendon
#

That should be good, and I hope everything works out in the end

#

would like to go back to actually using range again

prime panther
open bloom
#

We have no reason to assume Sagittarian refers a material. In fact I think it doesn't, it's simply equipment designed for the Sagitarre forces under Bilrach's control. Sagittarian could be made from Grave Creeper wood, or another high level wood, but treated and fashioned in a certain method known only to the Sagitarres, similar to how Dragon metal is just Orikalkum but smithed in a specific way known only to the Dragonkin.

hybrid moon
#

I don’t know if it’s been discussed, but how do the Dark Bow/Gloomfire Bow double auto-attacks work with the Basic Attack ability? Is that unique effect being phased out?

(Not that I really use it but) how will the auto-attack changes affect Legacy Mode? I know the Necromancy weapons technically have an “attack speed” of 1.8s, will that be carried over to every other style? If that is how Basic Attack ends up happening, that will break Legacy off-style dual-wielding at places like Tormented Demons as Basic Attack only attacks with your main weapon (adding your offhand’s Damage value if it’s the same style), even on Legacy.

austere turret
# mellow frigate it is what it is - my gaming taste is kind of single-player-pilled so I tend to ...

I really want to pull on the game failing to integrate combat because this is an issue I've had for a very long time with EoC. We got a lot of power creep but the enemies overall feel weaker than they did in RS2. Quest bosses that used to pose a moderate challenge now are felled in seconds. Many early game quest enemies only have like 100 health and most players will be able to hit that with an auto attack by the time they'd reach the fight. I feel the game does not challenge people enough casually.

hybrid moon
#

Some quest bosses have aged well, like Nomad or Sliske, but others certainly have not. They have been working on quest rebalancing behind the scenes, but it might be a while before they finish. They have to balance each quest for a different level bracket.

silk quest
#

That's an inherent flaw with EoC is that the vanilla rs2 experience still essentially exists and EoC was simply tacked on.

Its like two different worlds. Definitely having early game quest bosses utilize EoC mechanics should be done ASAP. The newest recent boss is a good example.

#

Joe was spot on with what he said, just dont have time to scroll back up to reply to it.

silk pumice
#

newest boss doesn't utilize anything that's eoc exclusive though

hybrid moon
#

Yeah Mhekarnahz is less mechanical than Scurrius

#

Two ground mechanics, pray mage the whole time, sometimes minions

silk pumice
#

better yet, the extra action buttons in gwd3 are more 'eoc' than anything else in the game

#

since it's based on the new customizable interface

#

and every single other mechanic, basically works in legacy

#

because it's a form of prism of salvation to dash, dragon spear spec to stun / interrupt or equipment effect

#

don't think this is the place for that whole discussion though

hybrid moon
#

Indirectly Legacy is getting pseudo-EoC things. Like Powerburst of Vitality/Shield Dome is effectively Debilitate, Death Guard or Dragon Spear spec is a stun, etc. Disruption Shield is sort of like Resonance, although some bosses are designed around having both available to block two mechanics in a row.

silk pumice
#

shield dome is basically just staff of light spec in aoe

#

but style agnostic

#

damage reflection was a thing on vesta's spear (also type agnostic 50% damage reduction)

hybrid moon
#

I'm curious, on beta, if you're wearing a Jaws of the Abyss and an Abyssal Scourge, does the legacy mode auto-attack generate 2% adrenaline/"special attack energy" per attack since the whip counts as a bleed? Weird interaction but I think it should depending on how the code works.

prime panther
#

Im curious if these batch combat updates are going to include or transition into balancing of existing armors and weapons? Like the adjustments to serenic / tectonic. I think with the tediousness of getting ascensions they deserve an enticing effect.

silk pumice
#

would be nice to have a full outfit to go with the ascension grips

prime panther
#

Im not requesting anything specific but just in general. It feels like magic got all the love the last few updates, and ezk

hybrid moon
prime panther
#

Just means theres room for an update

silk pumice
#

all 3 of em have a decent enough flavor to get a full set with effect out of

fleet moth
#

Have anyone tested the dps gap depending on switchscape in the range beta?

Is it the same? Or is it somewhere close to necromancy?

vale palm
#

the dps doesnt matter

open bloom
#

Zamorak bow eof gets eliminated as a switch, that's basically it

barren bane
#

Dps isn't final yet

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Gonna come back to it around mid Jan I reckon.

timid olive
#

I thought gloombow was already killing zammy bow

barren bane
prime panther
timid olive
#

good news guys, high level ranged in beta beats pizza time by autoattacking and snapshotting (and stunning melee minion) rasialpog

open bloom
#

But what if I run out of arrows? Imo pvm is too hard and bosses should fall over dead at my mere presence

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Giving me their entire drop table at once to make gear accessible

silk pumice
#

melee them with the bow

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like some kinda... bow-sword

vale palm
#

somebody lock this guy up

timid olive
#

slight snarkiness aside I did just want to see what the numbers looked like (I ended up eating on the way there because I was slacking on rotations and also forgot bone shield), not specifically start up flaming again

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but necro and beta ranged are definitely just so strong that the phase doesn't ask much

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didn't even swiftness or do anything fancy to take haraken down in one cycle (again, not that hard in NM, but there wasn't really any planning)

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ranged and necro do a lot of damage baseline

south elbow
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think devs will remove dw and 2h exclusive abilities for ranged like they did with magic? i know in the beta right now, dazing and needle are removed, but wondering if they have any interest in bringing them back

timid olive
#

there should be some differentiation like that, just not part of the core "you need this or else" kits

silk pumice
#

would make more sense to have abilities tied to weapon types, rather than size

timid olive
#

and it could be implemented better

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like the classic request back in the day of merging conc and wave to just change with dw/2h held weapon

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so you aren't changing your bar for one ability

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so you could have things like some abilities that are "one ability" but do something different with the weapon

atomic isle
#

i dont think there was ever anything wrong with switching from dw and 2h

#

for just an ability or 2 tbh

#

I quite frankly like there being synergy between dw and 2hing, as kinda of an experienced player thing

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I might be in the minority here, but i think making gconc be both a dw and 2h ability was mistake, same with gswave

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i'd prefer they not share a cooldown if anything tbh

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I assume this was done cause the devs want magic users to juggle spells instead of weapons

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I am so assume in this case the devs would want rangers to juggle ammo and not weapons either

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and for meleers to be the ones that juggle weapons

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Which tbh, i think this has created a problem for melee too in which you have lower tier weapons with useful effects like the mwsoa or the bane weapons which are tier 80. If the devs want this for melee. I at least wish they make a harness which makes it so every melee weapon you use scales to the highest tier melee weapon you have

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I had the idea of a melee weapon harness/baldric that could hold an extra melee weapon for added effects, this could allow for extra effects for melee. Perhaps also make switching easier

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perhaps if you put a t100 ezk on the harness it makes your abyssal bane weapons or mwsoa be t100 for example

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You could also easily switch between these weapons

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for example, you could have an abbysal bane 2h on the harness and have the abyssal bane effects when using any melee weapon

vale palm
#

the issue was gconc is extremely good, is used extremely often, and is anti-synergestic with the crit staff they made in the same update

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something had to change

barren bane
#

Yeah it just turned into lol you're not camping the crit staff with the crit ability,
That's something I'm noticing that no one picked up on,~~ there's no DW 2h diff in the ranged beta.~~ scratch that forgot about incend shot

atomic isle
#

Well, i think an issue was also the lack of a passive for the staff

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idk if just making gconc also available for 2h was the best solution

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following that tho, we had magma tempest be a 2h exclusive, well not anymore

civic tree
timid olive
#

and the first form of the staff spec warranted not letting tempest crit, when it was staff locked and "staff is crit identity now"

#

same issue as multi target crits triggering it as an auto

#

really easy to just throw out attacks that result in recursive damage

hybrid moon
#

For the next iteration of the beta, please add pocket slot items to the shop. Also allow War’s Costless Gizmos to access rare components you haven’t “discovered”, at least for beta worlds. Currently you can’t use Sliske components for Caroming unless you’ve unlocked them on main, and we’re going to need an Erethdor’s Grimoire to beta-test Magic anyway so they may as well add it to the shop now along with all the other pocket slot books.

static lintel
timid olive
#

finally, Ghost for rangers

timid olive
#

I still think it's too simple and will heavily benefit from some more things to do that aren't tied to some of the endgame """fun things""" like bolg counting, but the AA stuff does feel good and I've warmed up to some of the straightforwardness of doing things that are just basic damage anyways, along with less crazy unlocking to get anywhere

#

Still feels overtuned in ways though, especially if we're talking about the average using it for the average content (necro had this issue too) but at least the normal rules on hitchance and no ghost healing means less BS in that regard

open bloom
spark ermine
woven nest
#

kinda unnecessary when chins/deci are all ranged aoe has going for it, also being heavily limited by requiring adjacency, compared to threads/gchain/d2h which have reach. i'd like it if bombardment had a much larger range, like a 5x5 bomb being dropped (or a few waves of arrows) or just had some identity beyond AoE when you're too lazy to deci/chin.

barren bane
#

If bombardment amped up future aoe dmg, I'd be more inclined to use it.

silk pumice
#

what if it made your next single target ability aoe and added a little bonus damage to that

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while circumventing scutarius' direction damage reduction

barren bane
#

That's a little much for 40% adren cost.

#

imo

silk pumice
#

well that just depends on how much damage it adds

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could just have it enhance 2-3 abilities to aoe

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which then adds 4 ways to enhance it with gear

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lower cost, cooldown, increased aoe, increased damage

barren bane
#

This sounds like it should be 100% adren cost.

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I don't think turning bombardment into an ultimate is a great thing.

kindred hatch
#

how about turning it into a 3-hit ability where the first hit is single target while the second and third hit is a 5x5 aoe,
something like 150% for the first hit and 2x40% for the second and third hit

atomic isle
#

support the 5x5 increase to bombardment. Still think it should be given the spectral scythe treatment. It could start with a 3x3 basic needle strike, then 5x5 bombardment, and it could end with incendiary shot being fired upward and then just causing a huge explosion when it lands, could even increase this range to 7x7

kindred hatch
#

7x7 is a bit extreme, but the 3 phase ability is a great idea

barren bane
#

I was thinking of giving range an aoe that can be positioned like magma tempest.

atomic isle
#

could scale the damage of incendiary shot depending on how far mobs are. those in 3x3 range could take the most damage, 4-5 med damage, and 6-7 lower damage

barren bane
#

Changing corruption shot

atomic isle
#

caltrops, or exploding caltrops

barren bane
#

Cause I think ranged ought to drop bleeds 100% at this point.

atomic isle
#

I mean what about like a smoke bomb ranged attack

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I like ranged kinda being this style with explosives and bombs

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could fire like a toxic smoke bomb which damages mobs

barren bane
#

I think I posted it about this somewhere else, but I had the idea that corruption shot should drop an aoe, that makes foes sitting in the aoe explode in a 3x3 after a certain amount of time.

#

Kinda like amascut scripture I guess?

atomic isle
#

that be cool too, i do like how the book effect looks

vale palm
#

a big problem with the current abilityset is how everything pretty much just does straightforward instant damage, it's boring. With that in mind I would suggest flavor mechanics like how bloat spreads to other mobs if one dies with the debuff

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incendiary shot explodes to an aoe after one gcd, but people only use it for crit buff

#

that kind of thing should be on a basic or threshold

hybrid moon
#

Another with the crit buffs is they cost 100/90/80% adrenaline so if you don’t have enough critical hit chance then it’s not worth it to use the buffs at all. This game really needs more accessible midgame crits, there’s reaver’s ring and Tuska Warpriest and that’s about it until 99 Invention, Solak, or Vorago for mage specifically.

#

Making crit buffs cost no adrenaline, even if they did no damage, would be an insane buff for endgame rotations. That’s just an extra 80% adrenaline to dump into EoFs in your burst rotation. IMO the better solution is to make crit chance more accessible (and maybe slightly reduce crit damage to compensate).

#

Plus it just feels more satisfying to see those bold-font hitsplats even if they aren’t hitting quite as much in total.

#

Of course, all these suggestions are assuming that the crits=adrenaline buffs aren’t being changed, which they probably will be for Ranged and Melee. Magic’s identity is critical strikes so I think Tsunami will stay the same.

timid olive
#

it shouldn't be on those abilities if it's staying

barren bane
#

aoe on basic attacks is actually kinda huge for crit generation (as long as you're not ranged)

#

Ranged doesn't care and just gets 100% adrne per basic without aoe on basics.

rustic storm
#

I think non mage styles should move away from crits for adren juicing.
Having everything be crits is boring and puts non mage styles at a disadvantage.

I like there idea of making it build off multihits for ranged.

Maby high hits for mele to. Like anything 6k+ to make adren gain in zerk alot more impactful.

#

Make it either an aspect or something that lasts a good long while.
Or just a passive leveling buff.
Need more level dependant buffs.

fleet moon
#

ranged isn't highest anymore fyi...

Melee > Magic > Ranged > Necromancy

If these changes were to go through unchanged from what the current Beta is planned to would make Necromancy better then Ranged 💀

#

I'm not saying Ranged needs a buff; I am just mentioning because I feel Necrofying the Core combats is a terrible concept;
and when Necromancy gets to benefit from various Incantations and Conjures yet these other combat styles do not; to have them completely torn down to this just feels overall terrible.

rustic storm
#

Thankfully this is just a very early beta.
They'll be looking at feedback and tweaking to make things better.

prime panther
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I don’t think crits should be class locked, it just doesn’t seem right for a core damage mechanic of the game to be favored by any one style

rustic storm
#

They shouldent be. Im not saying they should.
Im saying that mage shouldbe the class that focuses on crits.

vale palm
#

id much rather the game move away from crits than have jagex codify accessibility to crits throughout the entire game just to make the current meta better

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the concept of crits giving you more adrenaline to do even more damage was always bad

atomic isle
#

whats the big problem with crits

vale palm
#

they're too universal

atomic isle
#

tbh, i like them. I really like whole concept of using an ultimate ability for more adre gain

#

too universal how

#

magic seems to be the one thats gone more into the crit thing

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which, I agree with the Dave, I don't think it should've ever just been a magic thing

vale palm
#

all triangle styles are using crits

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the entire point of draco is crits

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melee kind of less so because so many hitsplats are already up against the hitcap, but you're still using grimoire

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and all of their dps rotations rely on getting adrenaline from crits

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to the point that people hybrid purely to take advantage of other styles' crit buffs

atomic isle
#

I mean, just add a cap on the crit thing when using other styles

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if that's really such an issue

vale palm
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or build out each style to actually play differently instead of the entire game being built with tape and gum

atomic isle
#

i mean does that mean styles that don't crit?

vale palm
#

it means they have something to care about that aren't crits

atomic isle
#

well melee had the bleed thing

vale palm
#

had

atomic isle
#

but it seems that's been tossed out

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if any style should have the crit/adre synergy it should be melee more than anything

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idk why they gave it to magic

vale palm
#

it should be turned off for all of them

#

for the same thing you've mentioned

atomic isle
#

seems like adre should come more from some spell with magic

vale palm
#

restricting it to one or two is arbitrary

#

so just get rid of them all

atomic isle
#

why get rid of the crit/adre synergy for all styles?

vale palm
#

in the first place, the only reason crit buffs exist is because at the time they were made jagex was just refusing the reduce the adrenaline requirements of ultimates

vale palm
#

if you're gonna nerf them to be like 10% as good as they are now, that isn't really not getting rid of them

barren bane
#

Kinda unsure where melee ought to go ngl given it's already hitcapped.

vale palm
#

I'd like to once again mention how comical it is that any player is up against the hard hitcap of the game

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and that it is a technical failure that this situation even exists

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Make it right. Either get rid of a digit or fix whatever is limiting the hitcap to 32k

rustic storm
#

Hitcap is 30k cause they want it to be.
Only place i know of you can hit 32k is zammy grey health.
Idealy mele would have its hit cap increased cause its the style that most routinely hits that cap. Even without crits.
And hopefully after that adren juicing will be moved from an expensive crit based ult to something else.

atomic isle
#

idk, crit thing seems like it should've always been a melee thing imo. Notably now since it seems that melee only has the burst damage thing going for it now

vale palm
#

the hitcap is 30k because the actual maximum value of a single hit without finagling with all boss health code is 32,767

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they made a concious decision with eoc to add another 0 to damage and health values for literally no reason other than "haha big numbers"

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someone at the time probably justified it with "we'll fix the limitation later"

atomic isle
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Could just place a cap as to how much crit boosts players could have

mellow frigate
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divide all damage values by 10 should be a no-brainer imo but might be a p big project

vale palm
#

idk

mellow frigate
#

just based on the number of mobs that didn't have their hp amended through EoC I fear it may be a manual adjustmnet

vale palm
#

they did it twice in the space of like 3 years

#

multiplying by 10 that is

hybrid moon
atomic isle
#

isnt the whole point that too much crit would be broken?

#

id rather there be a cap on crit than on overall damage

#

once players have enough crit boost, they'll use other items

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could even mix and match between different boosts

mellow frigate
#

worth noting we do have a crit cap - can't go above 100%

#

obv that doesn't fix anything now or probably this decade

#

but you can def imagine a game where you have a 'crit build' which is basically forced crits, working on crit synergies but also other builds which synergise based on (tbc, not currently in game... flow stacks lmoa)

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I don't play enough live service games to know if 100% crit is fun in any sense though, basically everything I play with crit synergies has a max crit rate well below 100%

rustic storm
#

Some games have 100% and some have overcrits beyond 100%.
I dont think runescape needs guarenteed or overcrits.
A little bit more crit chance outside mage would be nice tho.

#

I think temporarry big swings of crit chance would be a good way to do it. Like how dracolich does or to a lesser extent tumekins

timid olive
open bloom
#

main issue with crit builds in games like RS imo is it adds an extra layer of RNG to combat and makes combat start to feel like just gambling. It's especially bad for Magic right now which relies on both crits and RNG-based resets. If you get lots of them, you do insane DPS, if you don't, you do terrible DPS

#

literally the gacha combat style

hybrid moon
#

Maybe Jagex could internally cut all damage the player does in half and divide monster HP by 2, then just double the displayed numbers so your damage “looks” the same. It would allow the calculation limit of 30k to “act like” 60k damage, effectively doubling the hit cap while still remaining within the 32767 calculation limit. I don’t know how feasible it is to actually code something like that but it’s probably easier than changing the actual numerical format.

timid olive
#

just divide everything by 10 from the existing numbers. Legacy supports it, RS3 arbitrarily 10x'd it, you'd just lose a tiny bit of rounding seen

#

the 10x from the Constitution update was enough to let people have some extra precision and early game variety

hybrid moon
open bloom
#

just develop rs4 lol

hybrid moon
#

My above suggestion was slightly different in that the game would calculate smaller numbers then scale them up so it “looks” the same while extending the hitcap.

timid olive
#

we don't actually need such huge numbers, it makes it all feel arbitrary since the scale gets so big anyways. It has been discussed before, so unless something changed, a blanket re-scale (with no new balancing needed) would just be script converting the damage and health values on things and not that hard. It'd just mean needing to catch some edge cases. Of course the "real" solution is to update the hitsplat system but that is apparently a big ask.

#

A lot of people didn't like the second 10xing, so if they were revamping stuff to be more comfortable it'd be 2 birds with 1 stone to have more hitcap freedom and a more familiar damage scale

open bloom
#

it took people a while to adjust to the first 10xing

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although old school damage numbers just wouldnt work with eoc imo, too many DoTs and passive effects that hit too low to be accurately represented

timid olive
#

the middle ground is 10x instead of 100x

hybrid moon
#

At this point RS3 has been 100x damage for longer than it had 1x or 10x combined. Reducing the damage calculations internally is fine but the final numbers should still be scaled up to “look like” 100x.

timid olive
#

that doesn't fix the hitsplats issue

hybrid moon
timid olive
#

if they're going to do a rewrite of new displays using secretly converted numbers they might as well just rewrite the existing one

hybrid moon
#

Neither of us have access to the Jagex code so let’s leave it at “we both don’t actually know how feasible it is to increase the hitcap.”

timid olive
#

it has been discussed in detail

#

the hitsplat code is what isn't compatible with exceeding the 32k issue

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you can even exceed the damage cap when fighting the twin furies since the damage displayed isn't the damage dealt to their shared bar tracked on its own

hybrid moon
#

Wait, it’s not a calculation issue it’s just a display issue? That’s a lot less complicated than I thought, but it’s still not going to be easy to solve considering how the devs haven’t already solved it.

open bloom
#

the easiest solution is just to make hits above 30k display a custom hitsplat, similar to how heals above the 32k limit become "uber heal"

timid olive
#

they already do that, they just limit what can do that

open bloom
#

only instant kills can do that currently

#

I'd say add a different kind of hitsplat for 30k+ hits that arent instant kills

#

like massive damage or something

timid olive
#

yeah, because a lot of instakills are "just do a ton of damage lol"

#

book of death is so ass for how long it took to sandbag for a proc on low level beta damage

barren bane
#

Book of death has always been ass ngl.

timid olive
#

it was a little better when there were fewer pocket alternatives and more importantly our damage was lower

#

now anything it works on you could probably obliterate in 2 seconds anyways

timid olive
grim oasis
#

Do we know exactly what combat skills will be raised to 120? Is it just Att str range mage? Or is defence prayer hp summoning going up as well?

timid olive
#

just the main style offense stats, unless the beta is extended to the point that they address all of our durability things too

fleet wharf
#

Smh I was looking forward to that 2.1% DR.

#

And juicy health.

#

Oh well, it's still coming. Eventually.

timid olive
#

it would actually be a fair amount of damage reduction from block chance

fleet wharf
#

It would, yeah.

#

I actually got 120 defence first because I knew it would be a massive buff when 120s did come around.

empty frigate
#

Youll dodge a TON of things style specific and these "dodges" will never proc resonence or DS.

#

And then you take a 23k hit after

#

Glacor and zamorak specifically

fleet wharf
empty frigate
#

Itl be great for afk stuff ye.

hybrid moon
#

But yeah it would be nice if Resonance would disable monster splashing so you're guaranteed to proc it on an auto

hybrid moon
#

Damage should be calculated on the tick you use an ability rather than when it hits.
Advantages: If your damage-boosting ultimate is about to run out, an attack that takes multiple ticks to land will still get boosted damage. Using Incendiary Shot (or some other delayed ability) and immediately switching weapons to a different style will still do full damage. Using Legatus Emberstaff while Kerapac is phasing will start the phase off with a 75% boosted hit from calculating before his HP restores rather than calculating when his health is at max.
[Probably more benefits I’m not thinking about.]
Disadvantage: might break WenSporing but I think they’re removing that anyway.

hybrid moon
#

Or just make every attack hit instantly but that’s kinda boring IMO.

visual grail
#

Doing an ability last tick of damage-boosting ultimate used to be a tech back in the day too, to get both the ult + zerker aura damage boost

hybrid moon
#

If they are planning to rework style identities and the crit buffs, I have an idea for Melee. They could go back to a “bleeds” identity and make Meteor Strike generate adrenaline for bleed hits. I could also see the Jaws of the Abyss effect being implemented directly into the core style in some way, since I’ve seen a lot of people complaining that such a powerful adrenaline generator is locked to that specific helmet.

#

Damage boosts such as Berserk, Ful book, Dragon Battleaxe, etc. would need to boost bleed hits in order to make a melee DoT build viable. But please don’t lock that to endgame equipment like the original Tumeken’s Resplendence effect 🙏. It should be a default mechanic that damage-boosting ultimates boost DoT damage calculation.

#

“I’ve used Berserk, I’m twice as strong now! So Dismember and Slaughter will do double damage like the rest of my abilities, right? Right?!”

#

It would be nice if Sunshine strengthened burns too, but Combust and the t95 wand spec are already ludicrously strong already so I understand if they don’t want to do that.

atomic isle
#

that would be so freaking cool and it makes so much sense

#

could even apply it to Magma tempest

fleet wharf
#

It feels odd that an ability based on the sun does not enhance burns.

hybrid moon
#

The T95 wands are my main weapons, so I’m kinda biased, but I really like my character running around just incinerating monsters.

FALL, AND BURN TO ASH
“no u”

hybrid moon
atomic isle
#

tbf, this makes me want there to be a rain ultimate that could strenghten tsunami

#

be cool if magic had these like weather effects

#

i mean magic is very elemental based

#

so it makes sense to me!

#

what if! Metamorphosis was changed so it would alter existing magic abilities depending on the type of spell you were using

#

ex. Using air surge, then u use metamorphosis, it changes sunshine into a cyclone instead

#

these could then maybe give different buffs depending on the type spell ur using

#

sunshine changed to a storm, for example when using water surge.

#

different types of spells could synergize with others

#

wind could give increased crit chance

#

fire more burns

hybrid moon
#

Metamorphosis giving unique effects and animations depending on elements (instead of just making you look like an elemental) would be epic, but let’s not overload the devs here haha

atomic isle
#

u rite, maybe under metamorphosis you could start with water spells and after some abilities change to air spells which could create a lightning storm and strike opponents, and idk that might be too much, but it could something like that

visual grail
visual grail
atomic isle
visual grail
#

Oh I see

green furnace
#

this is mostly an ironman issue but herb tars are pretty annoying to get already before 102 farming for PoF salamanders. I like leveling black salamanders for cheap invention xp but the tar really is my bottleneck for them, with even more ammo cost this will be unusable I think

fickle idol
#

I think splinter shot should cost 35% adren, and i like how deadshot deals high damage, I never like range on small enemys because of seren godbow being useless.

atomic isle
#

So at higher lvls we'll be able to stack deaths swiftness, splinter shot, and split soul spec?

#

isn't that a bit much?

empty frigate
vale palm
#

no, magma tempest isnt a dot

silk pumice
true nimbus
timid olive
#

yes those all stack

#

technically some diminishing returns on splitsoul since it scales from the healing on soulsplit which has diminishing returns, but they all stack

fickle idol
# atomic isle So at higher lvls we'll be able to stack deaths swiftness, splinter shot, and sp...

Does melee not have this kind of similar dps output as well? Range needs something to really put it over the edge, there is time delay to build adrenaline and to activate each ability, vulnerable and trying to time soul split. Balancing will obviously have to occur, the point is I feel like range should feel strong and have purpose, I feel like range has just been known for eldritch crossbow spec into seren godbow spec and... that's it.... Hopefully these updates are made to make the game FUN to play, I want to really enjoy using the class.

#

Give this a thought, Have to be within 5 tiles from target to activate, Deadshot deals the 5 hits but disables the player to move for 5 seconds, activating bombardment will lessen the time to 3.7 seconds. This gives players options, similar to snipe with nightmare gauntlets. Range dealing high dps but losing it's mobility in order to deal high dps hits

#

Activating Splinter shot stuns you randomly for 1 second every 25-30 seconds, persists until the enemy is dead

#

Just an idea, anything can be changed for balance

true nimbus
#

Range in the last few years is known for proc management. If you want to try it, you don't have to buy bolg but you can try wen arrows and checking the best time to use those on a threshold

#

Also I managed 500k damage in 10 seconds in the beta somehow XD though admitted it was at Vorkath

true nimbus
#

I do think Splinter would be fine if it also encouraged players to play into proc management and then use the power of swiftness to scale Splinter properly, it's balance I mean

barren bane
#

Realising splinter shots is more rewarding for non hybrid playstyles and making it an aspect would just enable more bridding

true nimbus
#

Making it an aspect would go heavily against what I'm guessing is it's design goal. It would need a heavy nerf as an aspect and thus not encourage players to focus as much on multi hit. Like, thinking "What's this random buff? Probably some random old mechanic. Not giving up my darkness for that"

#

When you sacrifice adrenaline for it though, that's exactly when you decide you need to play into it

#

And it would be appropriately rewarding

barren bane
#

That too, but aspects are very low commitment, what's the cost of runes? Nothing really. But 40% adren can be big After the 40 secs on your first splinter passes, you have a choice to either full commit to range dps or switch to a different style.

#

Splinter helps buffer out that DPS trough we see with non hybrid gameplay

true nimbus
#

Hmm, I'm not really thinking of that part

#

Using splinter even in hybrid XD

barren bane
#

So a style camper would make the choice to reapply splinter for the optimal uptime, however, a bridder would simply drop the style in that moment choosing to use that 40% adren elsewhere

#

In its current form, both playstyles are supported

true nimbus
#

I suppose it would hinder the adren management a bit

#

Am having 13 sec of splinter left over at the end of my range rot

barren bane
#

Hm, should be casting earlier then?

true nimbus
#

Hmm, might not have the adren to cast it. Hoping for bolg and piercing crits to be able to

fickle idol
#

I really do not think hybrid should be in conversation when creating the new range class, to make something new and hopefully amazing, trying to balance hybrid and "campers" or regular players will make it very non linear and unstable

barren bane
#

For my rots it's been what I cast right after I drink my adren renewal

#

Allows me to do 5 stack spores incend>ds>splinters>grico>bolg>ecb if I recall right

barren bane
#

And will continue to be so as long as it's ignored

fickle idol
#

can u expand on that?

true nimbus
#

Hmm, I'd prefer to have a crit beta separently and respect the hybrid + crit adren parts of combat in the redesign

#

crit rng part of combat tbh

barren bane
#

You can't make range be amazing if you don't talk about what hybrid brings to the table and how range can offer something new

fickle idol
#

RuneScape can barley handle a pure hybrid class with it's engine, it cannot handle a mix of perfect hybrid/pure range class.... the pure range class will be ultra boring as it currently is.

true nimbus
#

Hmm, I really like a new addition to range from Heists

#

If you go on beta, get bolg, eof and gloom bow eof, then bolg spec, get 1 stack and then gloom bow spec, that is some epic stuff

fickle idol
#

example : developer thinks of a genius idea to make range great, oh but wait it would ruin hybrids.... then scraps the idea

true nimbus
#

I do think the power of hybrids is slightly too daunting in overall dps outside of some scenarios where it makes sense like HM Vorky

true nimbus
#

This is how far I've progressed with my beta rot :p

#

I'm thinking of activating undead slayer in the middle of rapid fire instead of start so that my sgb and grico make it in

#

And deathspore arrows still bugged

fickle idol
#

For myself i'm a pure, I love using one class that is fully expressed and created. If when range gets released and I feel meh it's good but not amazing... and then i find out they balanced hybrid into the equation. I would be pissed.

true nimbus
#

Try wen arrows if you can, they pretty fun to use

fickle idol
#

lol i did and it is not my cup of tea....

barren bane
#

Wen arrows bugged in beta atm anyway =(

fickle idol
#

i'm a gamer, just because i'm a pure does not mean I don't game hard and i'm not into the arrow thing to appease my time

barren bane
#

Not sure how they're gonna handle that

#

With threshold removal

#

Just explicitly state which abilities trigger wens?

true nimbus
#

Using something like wen arrows as inspiration

barren bane
#

Eh deathspore/ful camp is good enough

#

Just gotta eat the accuracy loss in some places

true nimbus
#

I mean like bolg/wen proc management identity

#

It's just easier to get familiar with Wen design

barren bane
#

It's easier with new abilities

true nimbus
#

I was trying snap shot spam tbh

#

It didn't seem very good compared to the usual rot

barren bane
#

Whilst I'm bigging it up and still am due to its versatility, it can be a noob trap

fickle idol
barren bane
#

It's easy to over cast it

#

And resisting that urge will define the good ranger from the bad

true nimbus
#

When it's technically easier and the most gameplay progressed players agree that it's good, it just seems perfect

fickle idol
#

Yes you assume.

true nimbus
#

Players dislike high apm, so they would like arrows, yes?

fickle idol
#

as i said before, i'm not walking into a arrow debate

barren bane
#

I was thinking before I'd be happy if deathspores required 10 hits for a proc over 5 crits

#

But thinking on it later, its just too close to feeling like tsunami/incite fear at that point

true nimbus
#

I'm pretty happy with deathspores being a rapid fire grico combo tbh, so I'd just buff rapid fire crit even more

barren bane
#

3 gcds and you've "unlocked" your crit ult

#

I wonder if that's something to aim for or avoid

true nimbus
#

Hmm seems fine, about the same as magic

barren bane
#

Yeah, that's my issue is it too similar?

#

Should we strive to make it feel more different?
Or are we just creating differences for the sake of it, at the expense of gameplay?

true nimbus
#

I'd change magic before changing range tbh. With range there's more combo buttons besides I guess gconc tsunami

fickle idol
#

when creating range, you should be in a range ecosystem of thoughts, when creating magic you should be in a mage ecosystem of thoughts.... and so on

true nimbus
#

Another thing I like about range is that you are getting proc potential exactly after you have done a big multi hit, which is intuitive on the screen. Then right after that, you know to press a high value spender

#

And about this sniper playstyle idea they have, I guess they could make that like a typical ranger where you don't need swiftness and I guess you have to focus on the channel bar, have to cancel your channel at the precise time and you are free to move around during the channel. Random Idea I got from pvme

#

This would be bolts instead of arrows

barren bane
#

Like perfect reloads as in gears of war/risk of rain 2?

true nimbus
#

Hmm, the only one I remember is attacking in Expedition 33

barren bane
#

Skip a bit to where he's spamming reloads for the achivement and you can see a segment on the bar that's highlighted where you'd, in runescape terms, cancel the channel.

true nimbus
#

Ye, instead of reloading, that would be where you get high damage for firing :p

barren bane
#

And hitting that sweet spot would fire an improved shot

#

Or, idk, improve a future ability cast

true nimbus
#

Ye anything

#

Expedition 33 has swords tho

#

But there's a channel bar too

#

Someone basically said that range should be about precision, so that was my first thought XD

barren bane
#

Drop this idea into pvme

#

I'll do it when I get a bit

true nimbus
#

Actually don't drop my video, some spoilers in there :p

barren bane
#

XD, I'll record some ror2 for it

true nimbus
#

Yee sure

atomic isle
true nimbus
#

It's not exactly about the dps output but rather sacrificing adrenaline to play around the core identity of range. I do think they might need to lower the adrenaline cost and damage of swiftness though

#

It's kinda like berserk being melee's identity but being able to play into that identity all the time

#

I wish they could move away from swiftness somehow and still have range use up high adrenaline

true nimbus
barren bane
#

Ohhh

#

I was thinking purely snipe

true nimbus
#

Ye like since they are thinking Sniper, that could be 2h crossbow bolt things with that system :p

barren bane
#

I think the current iteration of snipe is too simple to ever play a sniper role to begin with.

#

They need to add a mild amount of complexity to add the value of a sniper subclass where equipment modifies the function.

#

Like in my proposed idea you could have gloves that remove the sweet spot but lower the dmg a bit and the overall channel time to 3 tick duration.

#

Contrasting that with gloves that shorten the cooldown of snipe for every perfect shot you do.

hybrid moon
#

The Dwarven Handcannon spec could be cool for a “charge-release” ability if they ever give it an updated version

#

If you over-charge it misfires and damages you (please remove the self-deleting thing) but if you land it you hit like 10K before multipliers, kind of like Detonate with risk

atomic isle
#

I like that idea! handcannon weps could have passives which change how explosive ranged abilities work, maybe the buff em

#

Like bombardment and incendiary shot, and maybe snipe too

real timber
#

My first impression, for what it's worth, is I hope the style doesn't become too plain. And I hope things like quest rewards, like with Death's Swiftness, don't become too inconsequential. Thanks

true nimbus
true nimbus
#

Tried leng melee range

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I think I need to start doing mage melee range necro to get this skip cuz stalling still bugged XD (mage for tsunami and necro for death mark)

#

The leng prebuild is kinda crazy tho

visual grail
hybrid moon
#

I don’t own either but I’m not sure you can effectively prebuild with an EZK. It only has a significant advantage over Lengs with the Flamebound-boosted spec, which you can only use for the second time a minute in, right? I think the devs specifically mentioned wanting the EZK to be a long-fights weapon not burst.

visual grail
#

Let's you completely skip leng stacking too

spark ermine
silk pumice
#

a weapon's category should have some base modifiers to abilities

#

with unique / high-end weapons adding their own flavor / modifiers on top

#

e.g. crush weapons like maces, mauls and warhammers, should improve smash

#

ezk, also improves it due to it falling under the flavor of a bonkstick

#

but it would be non-standard for 2h swords to improve smash

#

in case of dual wielding, you can somewhat mix and match certain combinations of abilities boosts

#

basically moving the old weapon diversity beta concept to a more modular one

true nimbus
#

Hmm, some modifications are okay but I like the idea of endgame releases testing out what is a good idea to bring into the core style

true nimbus
true nimbus
# barren bane I think the current iteration of snipe is too simple to ever play a sniper role ...

I agree, so I was thinking what if they have Splinter for bolts too. Current Splinter works well with the arrow identity that is already established but we wouldn't have a bolt identity (unless it has to play off multi hits but I'm not fully sure.) So what if the version of Splinter for bolts just transforms ability functions entirely and makes into the same Snipe idea that we have as the core gameplay

visual grail
true nimbus
#

I think can do supreme invigorate tsunami but it's gonna be really annoying, maybe 130% heightened senses too. Hmm true there's some potential there to make up for ezk adren loss

visual grail
#

But what I meant to say is that you can place a dummy before you start the fight at the door

#

Releasing nami + entering same tick gives crit buff

#

not sure if it stays if not same tick but a few abilities after

true nimbus
#

I was trying that and didn't let me put the dummy down before

#

I put the dummy at the start of the video spot, there

visual grail
#

I meant like

firefox_VxPHjjdi6W.png
true nimbus
#

Ye it didn't work there earlier but could try again

visual grail
#

Haven't gone in ages / haven't tried on the beta, but might just be unlucky positioning to a blocked tile

true nimbus
#

On main game, I think coe is meta since you just don't get enough adren back after swiftness for consistent grico bolg rapid I think

#

Or may have just been me missing meteor I dunno

#

But here definitely hs

visual grail
# true nimbus On main game, I think coe is meta since you just don't get enough adren back aft...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E8hR56kyzc
This is what I saw when ezk was first buffed, consistent hour on hs

YouTube
Evil Lucario
37 kph Vorkath

Example hour for PvME. 38th kill is done basically without aura.

PvM Abbreviations: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yZmDhx-SJsrVo0iTNwgMN3YsuJ9CrHcySd3hptvz3Ds/edit?usp=sharing
PvM Encyclopedia Discord link: https://discord.gg/pvme
Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/EvilLucario
Catch me live on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/evillucari...

▶ Play video
#

From what I heard CoE makes it really inconsistent to DS after piercing

true nimbus
#

It does make it inconsistent but dazing afterwards is also consistently fine

#

I gotta get a clip of where I failed the grico bolg tho, probs got like 20 gb of vods

true nimbus
#

Okay I found a clip (only the first few seconds are blank screen and I dunno why XD)

#

I did fail my 1 tick spell release here but luckily recovered with a piercing crit. If my crits landed badly though, then even without failing 1 tick spell release, then there's a chance it makes the kill very tricky to deal with due to Zemo stunn making into his rotation and the odd timing for ballista

silk pumice
#

might be nice if fire arrows are made into a proper ammunition type

#

have them apply a (stacking) burn effect

#

with that scaling partially on your firemaking level

#

the items already kinda exist as does a basic way to make em

true nimbus
#

I think gameplay affecting arrows should be unlocked way early. Some even suggest to ignore arrows and make the effects come from abilities :p

atomic isle
#

i like the idea of fire arrows too

#

maybe dragonfire arrows could be a future upgrade

#

could even have wyvernfire arrows after that

atomic isle
true nimbus
#

Ye maybe. It mostly has to focus around stacks and procs though, with that being bow/arrow identity and all that

atomic isle
#

the idea of fire arrows seems to play well with Ranged's current explosion theme with it's abilities

#

like bombardment and incendiary shot, would say frag shot, but ig that's gettign removed

hybrid moon
#

With the upcoming Fletching Retier, Dragon, Dark, and Stalker Arrows will be equivalent to their standard metal counterparts while being far more annoying to get. Maybe they could be given an alternate effect?

true nimbus
atomic isle
#

true, it would work so well with dragonfire and wyvernfire upragdes to arrows tho when you also consider that ranged gets it's armor from dragons via d'hide

#

I like the idea of ammo getting some if it's effects from dragons as well

true nimbus
#

I feel that could be a thing with bolt but with arrows being more-so multi hit, I don't see it being too likely

#

Someone suggested incend act more like eldrich crossbow which I like, which might be more likely

#

Bombardment not too sure

#

I guess you can make multi-hit more thematic

#

Like getting stacks means planting mines on an enemy's body and proccing the stacks means detonating them all at the same time

atomic isle
#

Yeah, bolts are already overrun with enchanted gem tips tho

#

I mean if they want to keep the arrow stacking thing with fire arrows I think that's fine too

#

Maybe after a stack the enemy gets a burn or en explosion or a dragon fire attack

atomic isle
true nimbus
#

I imagine bolts will get a complete rework in the future

true nimbus
hybrid moon
#

I had an idea to make the Dwarven Handcannon spec into a "charge-release, but don't overcharge" thing. The "sweet spot" is still 0.6s long so not really hard to avoid overcharging, but it would still be a cool mechanic. It could also work for the "slow, monstrous hits" Sniper subclass for Ranged that has been discussed.

#

Like for the EoF I'm imagining 30k + 20k BolG + 8k ECB easily.

#

But if you miss the timing or are stunned during the channel, it's like 2000 recoil damage.

fleet moon
#

the only thing that necromancy doesn't have that the others do is an adrenaline gain from crits utilizing an ability.

#

which because necromancy was over simplified doesn't have this aswell.

timid olive
#

necro didn't get it because they were sick of all styles doing the same thing

#

and they wanted to get rid of cross-styling that boost, and when people complained too much they specifically blocked necro from using it

open bloom
#

Mage clearly leans harder into crits than the other styles with fsoa, and on the flip side necro is less crit reliant since conjures can't crit anyways

rustic storm
hybrid moon
#

In terms of sidegrades/substyles, the T95 burn wands go the opposite direction of the FSoA since DoT cannot crit. I would really like if the devs take the time to develop a “reverse” substyle for Ranged and Melee too. That would fix a lot of the complaints that this rework is locking the styles into the current meta, since you could have your build/rotation anywhere between the two extremes. Some abilities will be strong enough to fit for both ends, like Chaos Roar, GRico, GConc, etc.

For Ranged the “reverse” is obviously going to be slow, massive hits as a Sniper. This is really what the BolG was meant to be, but it’s the only Ranged t95 currently so the devs are trying to push a “machine gun” identity on a “sniper rifle”. When they finally release t95 crossbows, they can lean much harder into the “multi-hit spam” option especially with Hydrix Bolts being your “camp” ammo (instead of swapping to a crossbow for GRico and back to the BolG).

Melee’s main identity seems to be going towards massive Berserk hits so an “inverse” being the older Bleeds class could work.

We don’t actually have enough endgame equipment to really build two different sets for each class, but I’m hopeful that the developers will look into this “main and inverse” design philosophy in the future rather than trying to railroad the entire style into one path like Necromancy. (Actually, on that topic, I think the Necro 2H should move away from Finger of Death as your primary adrenaline dump and massively buff Death Scythe instead. Okay, I’ll stop trying to backseat dev now.)

civic tree
rustic storm
civic tree
rustic storm
#

If they give us a choice. Bleeds or big hits, thats fine.
I just dont want to be forced to use bleeds for good damage.

civic tree
#

ah I didn't check what terper was suggesting specifically, yeah I think there ought to be choice

hybrid moon
#

If you read my text wall (I don’t blame you for skipping it, sorry it’s so long) I suggested that the developers give each style an inverse identity where you could build towards either end or somewhere in the middle.

#

So melee could either go “zerk 30k 30k” on one end or bleeds on the other, or you could try to get the best of both ends if you want.

civic tree
#

I'd like that too

rustic storm
#

That could be intresing.
Tho it would be a bit odd given it would make ranged and mele very simaler.
Ranged will be multihits. Opposite of that is one big hit wich is already meles thing.
Same with mele turning into bleeds wich are a multihit.

civic tree
#

only so many ways you can chop an onion

#

I think bleeds are distinct enough from multihits in that they scale based on different things and only one procs hit effects

rustic storm
#

While an intresting idea. Inverse identitys would add a whole layer of complexity that we dont really need right now.
Maby once everything is updated and settled then they can look at something like that down the line.

#

Not to mention bleeds would need alot of tweaking to actually be useable. And more bleeds would need to be added.
Adding to ability bloat. Wich is one of the things they are working towards reducing

hybrid moon
#

I mean the way you balance a DPS class is either slow big hits or quick small hits, unless you want to build a whole support class around buffs and debuffs.

#

(Or Berserker which is quick big hits but you’re made of tissue paper, circa Vestments of Havoc)

rustic storm
#

On the other hand. If they made bleeds a support damage then that i could get behind.
Something like poison.
Mele gets support bleeds, ranged gets poisons, mage gets burns or something like a miasma.

#

Just a chance at a little extra tick of damage instead of something you actively have to upkeep.
Like armour spikes or poison.

#

Recoil damage could work for mele to

civic tree
#

a bleed support melee build would be cool

timid olive
#

damage distributions should be considered for part of how builds can work

#

multi-hit for procs and avoiding caps, big hits for burst and overcoming thresholds/flat checks, up front damage vs bleed damage being less controlled and over time, different modifiers

barren bane
#

For as long as melee support tools doesn't affect the action economy, it just sucks.

timid olive
#

you could even do things like "bleeds and poisons ignore hitchance, the target is wounded and bleeding out, that's not something you keep reducing and checking"

#

(you could also specifically reduce that damage, in a way that's different from guarding/blocking)

hybrid moon
#

Poison already does full damage regardless of accuracy, but I think DoT is scaled yeah.

barren bane
#

Like armour spikes right? That's something that feels made for an alternative version of runescape where bosses auto attack like P4 nomad, defensive play is the way to go, and where sustained attrition is more important than burst dps.

timid olive
#

of course a lot of things reducing it is usually a failsafe for cinders letting people break the game

#

"99% damage reduction but poison hits in full, kill kerapac during his phasing animation and skip the fight"

hybrid moon
#

Wait did that work on release so they made him fully Immune? That would’ve been hilarious

timid olive
#

if choices made to inflict bleeds and poisons were more decisive, actions, and exclusive from some other options (IE not juicing adren to the point you can do burst AND bleed, or not just free bleeds while doing your normal rotation), there would be room for that stuff to breathe

timid olive
#

you had things like familiar (and I think poison for awhile) damage working for solak's phase damage reduction too, so you could skip the last phase stalling out for a bit on the easy phase prior

#

(you still can, but it takes 100x longer so not worth)

hybrid moon
#

I mean I’ve tried to get Kerapac to like 55k, dump a 30K death guard spec, and activate Death Mark all at once, but DM actually counts as a hidden 80k-ish hit which just gets blocked 🙁

timid olive
#

they just stopped everything (as they should, it ruins the boss) after all the forms of that kind of thing working

rustic storm
#

Damage gates need to stay damage gates. Bypassing them would just break so much.

vale palm
#

damage gates are really just a way to avoid doing what zamorak does any way

#

or rather, an easier way of doing the same thing

hybrid moon
#

The devs have known how to make mechanics non-skippable (outside of weird edge cases) for a while, Zamorak was specifically designed for burst DPS enabling mechanic skipping.

vale palm
#

no im just talking about making a long fight without having a single, giant hp bar

#

kerapac heals his hp bar, zamorak has multiple hp bars

tired gulch
#

Just an aside,

Can we bring back the old school royal crossbow? EOC absolutely nerfed it's passive of increasing damage dealt over time, yet the examine text remains.

I think it'd be good to explore that, or just change the examine text all together

true nimbus
vale palm
#

sniping with dual wield lol

#

thats stupid

true nimbus
#

2h crossbow XD

#

Bolts having sniper effects

vale palm
#

don't think ranged should be 2h only just because of bad design

true nimbus
#

I don't think we need to be locked into 2h vs dual wield though

#

Abilities locked behind ammo effects instead of weapon type makes sense to me, I dunno

vale palm
#

it doesn't really make much sense at all

#

there exists a difference between arrows and bolts because there is already an inherent conceptual difference between bows and crossbows

true nimbus
#

Dual wield crossbows make even less sense :p

vale palm
#

saying "all crossbows are now this because bolts" is putting the cart before the horse

#

if anything should be changing abilities, it should be the weapons

true nimbus
#

So just scrapping the bolg design, making it into 2 crossbows that do multi hits, making dinarrows into bolts and then making a new bow for Sniper?

vale palm
#

idk why you're mentioning bolg

#

it doesnt really have anything to do with multihit other than relying on it

#

it adds 1 extra hit for every 8, every 4 for 30 seconds during its spec

#

it's not a machine gun

true nimbus
#

They somewhat confirmed that bolg is core to ranges identity, so there would need to be a full visual rework

vale palm
#

where

true nimbus
#

Sec

#

The wording here. That's how I understood it pretty much

vale palm
#

ignoring that it's a quarter-baked idea, that isn't really what that sentence implies

timid olive
#

"this is a prototype for a possibility."
"It's leaning into what already happens at the high end of the live game, which is multi hit stuff like bolts and bolg procs"