#Let us use Defensives with DW & 2handers and DW abilities with Shields

71 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

amber vigil
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Necromancy's bone shield has broken the old system already and made it obsolete. Players already have access to the strongest of all defensive abilities and up to a lvl 75 shield without even having a shield at all.

There are talks about making defensive abilities stronger notably with shields and defenders. To that i ask, to what end? To make defensives compete with offensive abilities of melee, ranged, magic, and necro? Why not just give players with shields access to dw abilities and players with offhands/2 handers access to defensives?

It may seem weird but it makes sense right? With an extra offhand sword you can block attacks, same with a 2 handed weapon, just as you can also use a shield offensively, striking and bashing opponents.

This would finally allow players to fulfill the fantasy of fighting effectively with a shield or defending well with 2 swords or 2 handers.

There could and imo, should still be restrictions. For example, barricade and other defensive ultimates could remain shield exclusives. As dw and 2 hander ultimates could remain exclusives for offhands and 2 handers, such as meteor strike, frenzy, unload, and more. These specific ultimates could even be improved as to make them and dw and 2h styles more viable.

This would truly put defenders in an obsolete space as the whole fantasy of them and usage is of using a sword to block/as a shield and having access to both defensives and offensives, to which tbh, they're already dead anyway with bone shield. Unlocking them could simply serve as a way to unlock the ability to use defensives with offhands/2 handers and offensives with shields.

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There's a lot to think about here but I do think this would be a good implementation.

regal crane
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There sure is a lot to think about...
So you're basically saying everyone has access to a bone shield type of effect.
But since you're not literally using the bone shield incantation, wouldn't this effect therefore have to be an even weaker version of lesser bone shield? Like a tier 1 shield for example?

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Or would you make it stronger than t1, but then buff lbs and gbs?

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issue with that is it makes shields even less viable than they already are

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maybe you could use all defensives, but they behave differently with dw/2h
for example resonance just blocks the hit, it doesn't heal you

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damage reducing abilities are half effective or something along those lines

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defensive abilities are always available at 25% effectiveness (dw/2h)
defensive abilities are 50% effective (bone shield/defender)
defensive abilities are 100% effective (shield)

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something like that?

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if you give shield users dw/2h abilities, that just enables access right? it wouldn't give the shield added ability damage or anything?

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also reminded me of an old post

amber vigil
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Indeed a lot to think about! I will say there are 2 or 4 new offensive shield abilities I think would be pretty darn cool if they existed. I say 2 or 4 because they could be implemented in various ways.

  1. Shield barge, which i have already seen talked about. You barge/smash into an opponent with your shield from a distance.

  2. Shield swipe, a conal shield attack (like cleave)

  3. Shield roundhouse sweep, strike with your shield in a circular motion, hitting all opponents who surround you.

  4. Shield throw/ricochet, yes like Captain America, throw your shield from a distance to strike an opponent, perhaps it hitting multiple opponents in the process and have it return to you.

I really like how spectral scythe works with necromancy. It starts with a swipe, then all around, and finally a large slam. This could be how shield offensives work. This what i mean as to how all these 4 abilities could be implemented into 2.

The current bash could be made to work like spectral scythe. Starting as just a single strike, then a conal sweep, and finally a roundhouse strike.

When bash is done from a distance, the shield could just be thrown, and each consecutive bash after the first one could just hit more opponents when done from a distance. First bash when done from a distance hits 1 opponent, second up to 3, and third up to 8. This would add a bit more of realism to bash when done with range/mage/necro. Not saying this should only happen with just these styles but whenever the player is at a far distance, including with melee. It could be a neat way for melee to aggro monsters from a distance.

amber vigil
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There are no more dw and 2h restrictive abilities for magic anymore. Not for basics, thresholds or ultimates. I suppose the same could happen for melee and ranged.

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Shields could be made to give offensive stats and offhands/2 handers could give defensive stats. I would go for the defender stats.

Ex. Shields could give the offensive stats a defender of their tier gives and 2 handers/dw offhands could give the defensive stats a defender of their tier gives

amber vigil
amber vigil
# regal crane if you give shield users dw/2h abilities, that just enables access right? it wou...

I would say that for basics and specific offensive shield abilities like bash and perhaps something along the lines of new shield abilities like i have suggested they could do damage equivalent to the offhand of their tier. This way players are incentivized to use those offensive shield abilities. While dw abilities could still be nerfed when using a shield, but still able to be done. This also applying the other way around when using a 2h and dw, being able to use defensives with both but at a nerfed state. While also keeping some defensive abilities exclusive to shields, notably the offensive ones like the ones I have suggested.

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I do think something like flurry should remain a dw exclusive, along with certain ultimates like unload and frenzy. Just makes more sense that way for example, but destroy and havoc, imo, they could also be used with a shield

amber vigil
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Specific shields could even give passives when used with weapons, either offensive or defensive ones. Being able to deflect damage makes the most sense atm to me

amber vigil
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Imo tho, to be sincere. Bone shield just needs to die or be nerfed, certainly if all of this is implemented. It should at least only work with necromancy and be considered necro's defender if anything and either not do ultimates like barricade. Barricade should def require a shield to use and be a shield exclusive and whats with it also blocking dragonfire?

regal crane
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(4th last image on the reddit page)

regal crane
regal crane
regal crane
regal crane
regal crane
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Personally, I think the effectiveness of shield abilities would have to be significantly weaker when not using a shield in order for me to want this

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As I said before, like resonance just blocking damage and not healing from it, if you aren't wearing a shield

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those are my super old ideas, lol. maybe they can inspire some theory crafting

amber vigil
amber vigil
amber vigil
amber vigil
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shields could also lower defensive cooldowns, making revenge into an even better ability to use and defensives like reso and barricade way better when using shields. This could truly make players untouchable with shields.

next thunder
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I don't get the suggestion. You can already use defensives with DW and 2-hand using bone shield.

amber vigil
next thunder
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Swinging your shield like a sword would look stupid

amber vigil
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so does using defensives without a shield so we're already there

next thunder
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I think they should just buff/rework the shield abilities. The question is how much dps you are losing and how much survivability you are gaining. I am actually not sure what the numbers are right now.

amber vigil
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That's fine they can do that too

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it just seems ridiculous how you can use idk barricade and all of these defensives without a shield, but you can use dw abilities with a shield

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if anything using dw abilities with a shield makes more sense than using barricade without a shield

next thunder
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dw and shield specific abilities make it more unique. The same abilities for everything is just boring.

amber vigil
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Two things can exist at once tho, I think we should be able to use some dw abilities with shields too

next thunder
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This with a shield:

Flurry.gif
amber vigil
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If you want to read through the thread, flurry is one the dw abilities I have said shouldnt be used with a shield

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would save us both a lot of trouble

next thunder
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But they all have animations were you use both weapons. It isn't just flurry

amber vigil
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i mean most of them dont seem to change ur weapon

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flurry is the only one that look ridiculous with shield in my opinion along with frenzy ig

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I think they could keep most animations tbh

iron oasis
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I agree with the sentiment of making shields usable more than an occasional switch. I'm not sure if I agree with the mechanism though

amber vigil
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The mechanism being able to use some dw abilities with shields ig? or Just shields being comparable in combat to something like dw and 2hs?

iron oasis
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DW / 2h abilities being able to use defensives and vice-versa

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I feel like they should have their own unique game space, but should both have viability in the game

regal crane
regal crane