#Early Game Rebalance

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thin shuttle
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yes, f2p absolutely should have flesh

zinc epoch
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KQ doesn't really feel suitable to throw to F2P for any reason is all im meaning.

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I think the only thing would need to potentially consider checking drop logs for what can drop in F2P but thats about it.

past briar
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There could always be a F2P drop table much like KBD and Chaos have.

When I look at KQ, it's really just more damage sponge compared to KBD, with the added gimmick of immunities between 2 phases and workers that could spawn. Sounds like a bit of a hassle to set up not only access to F2P, but also having to adjust drop tables accordingly.

Flesh would fit better now that its here. It fits for early PvM encounters, the entrance is in F2P and drops could be adjusted accordingly.

calm mango
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would like a boss like flesh available to f2p

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certainly more than KQ which will only put people off getting members if that's what they think it's like

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have to see where prices end up first though because if you just make flesh available to f2p you're just going to nuke the value of its drops

thin shuttle
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it's a good trainign boss; and it can wet aan f2p's appetite for "real" bossfights.
with that reasoning it would be nice as an f2p boss

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a fun activity, and at the same time some adverisement for members

valid pewter
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The "downside" being that currently it's a good introduction to endgame bosses tbf, so there's then a large gap before you'd actually start seeing that same style of if boss

thin shuttle
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that is sadly true

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but as it stands, they got kbd and mole, those aren't doing midgame/endgame bossing any favors

valid pewter
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Ye, honestly I think something like a down tiered gwd2 would be a cool fit. But I can't think of a boss who does otherwise fit for that

thin shuttle
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i mean, flesh isn't that different from gwd2 in mechanics and difficulty

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the signalling? yes, way better.
but the better solution there is to add this telegraphing to gwd2

valid pewter
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Yeah it's more in the display of it

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Charge bar and ground markers Vs counting attacks

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Yeah I'd love to see many elements of new boss telegraphing backporter

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Although maybe in a more "natural" way than the charge bar

calm mango
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I'm going to add one comment in defence of counting attacks then retreat back to my hole

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bye

thin shuttle
valid pewter
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I'd prefer it more diagetic but it's cool to not have to count

proven pier
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Could Agility just become a combat skill that is focused around dodge? Reduce damage taken for all 4 styles, maybe also reduce global cooldown at higher levels

past briar
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Skillers in shambles.

I like it 😏

zinc kraken
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Reducing global cooldown no, but passive dodge change would be cool. Also an unlock to allow movement during channels would be neat!

cedar sinew
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add dodge chance but only while moving

cloud plaza
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no to dodge chance

calm mango
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yeah I don't see the need to make agility a really boring combat skill

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maaaaybe at a stretch add some gear with agility-level requirements to obtain/equip

wide cipher
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like more elf gear beyond crystal

glacial ridge
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Agility as a way to improve dodge would be neat.

past briar
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Would turn it into a combat skill as it would become a ‘Defence skill at home’.

It’s certainly a way to kill skillers.

grave kraken
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  1. Rename Agility to Parry and make it a part of combat.
cloud plaza
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this is Defence

grave kraken
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Parrry is like dodging

cedar sinew
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yeah.

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defence.

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thats what armor rating does.

thin shuttle
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Armor rating is deflection, dodge is different

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Ij dnd3 or pathfinder, you have "touch" and "flat footed" armor, which are dodge/parry and deflection respectively, and you need to beat either or both to hit depending on the situation

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Dodge is "do i hit at all", while deflection is "if i hit at all, is it hard enough to hurt"

cedar sinew
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in runescape armor is dodge

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your defense rating does not add damage reduction unless you have animate dead on

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otherwise, it's part of the combat calculation for whether you take any damage at all

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defense adds armor rating, unlocks higher armor rating armor, and adds .1% damage reduction per level

wide cipher
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Tank armour has separate damage reduction on top of the armour rating

thin shuttle
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Damage reduction is another layer beyond deflection

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Roll to make contact, roll to deal damage, roll damage minus DR

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Some effects ignore either the contact or damaging roll

grave kraken
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So sounds like parry/dodge is a good recommendation to add 🙂

cedar sinew
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we already have defense...

plucky hawk
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Let's see...
Personal thoughta:

-Early combat could use some more proper mechanical content. Maybe something could be done between Slayer and mixed mechanics bosses going forwards.

Maybe the Tower of Life could be used for this.

-Farming didn't feel great to get started on my iron largely due to disease and WFEs just dominating the levelling experience.

-Crafting has a bit of a slump as well, but that's maybe more towards midgame or just a me issue.

-Agility has been done to death, but I agree - this sorely needs more training methods and some nicer raters at low levels.

-I'd kinda like to see an RC method that's somewhere between the Abyss and Runespan for low-mid. Not needed though.

-Early hunter could do with something similar to big game hunter, just on a smaller scale. I think this would be a nice tie back to the early combat additions or mixed content encounters.

-Construction as a skill could sorely do with a rework, especially the player owned house.
Fort Forinthry is the easier method, but PoH is practically just a time capsule now.

-Divination is in a very unhealthy place for mid levels. While I never have minded levelling it, low tier energy feels pretty useless except for engrams -- the opportunity cost of making a lot of low level porters and such never felt worth it to me.

-Firemaking competes with fletching for resources, but the main payoff of incense is not worth the hassle until later levels or once a major abundance of ashes can be had. It just doesn't feel good to level, to me.

-Dungeoneering is awful to level in general, but even worse at low levels as the key rewards are out of reach even when you reach the level to buy them unless you cheese Elite Dungeons.

I think one option would be to have them available from some other mid level monsters or activities, perhaps even implementing some new "dungeon" encounters a la OSRS. Broadly though, the reward structure is really out of whack and that makes training the skill a real slog.

I think those are the main ones that come to mind.

I suspect this has all been said already, anyhow! 🙂

grave kraken
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Alright so I just did Castle Wars with a few friends. I forgot how much fun this was. I think a suggestion would be to revive or tweak the rewards for some of the older mini games to hlep with early-mid game 🙂

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Shorten to 10 minute games
rewards - bxp, lamps, stars, gp

wide cipher
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that would basically undermine mtx removal by adding it to something that's mostly afked currently

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it'd need an activity tracker and would likely just result in people 'gaming' the system for it

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if it's even slightly decent reward-wise

mortal bolt
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I mean before mtx mini games were a legitimate way to gain extra xp for skills

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like barb assault gave agility and fm xp, and ofc stealing creation giving wc, fishing, and mining xp

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I wouldn't mind some mini games giving more xp rewards

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Pest control and Soul wars too

wide cipher
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pest control already offers solid xp though

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castle wars never was really about xp, so much as the various cosmetic rewards

mortal bolt
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You're right. Nothing wrong with more mini games giving some form of xp imo tho

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Notably once mtx dies

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well th

wide cipher
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my main argument against adding it to cw is that it's basically people afking in base nowadays

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add ranger / mage cosmetic outfits, and add conjure overrides using em and people would return to it for a bit

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but currently the combat system doesn't allow for any real 'fun' pvp

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adding a pve mode against spoof players might work though

mortal bolt
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I mean I would say the bigger issue is the thaler system is simply just terrible and it needs to cease to exist

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it's mostly the current thaler system which makes afking rewarding

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Without thaler, losing in cwars is very punishing since you don't get anything but the lil silver tickets, but who cares about those

grave kraken
wide cipher
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if people don't care for the currencies that are supposed to be used for stuff within the minigame, perhaps that's telling in itself

mortal bolt
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What does people not caring for the currencies that are supposed to be used for stuff within the minigame say? That the rewards need to be updated?

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I mean this could interpreted in many ways. This is what I'm getting from it and is what makes most sense to me. What exactly do you mean?

cedar sinew
vast epoch
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Introducing a Varrock Museum teaser for F2P players would be a great addition, allowing them to complete the "It Belongs in a Museum" achievement.

  • F2P players already have access to 4 quests that could easily grant 5 kudos each.
  • Including a quiz that awards 28 kudos upon completion would be beneficial, with the rewards being limited to P2P content until the level 20 cap is fulfilled.
  • The Strange Rock requirement of 500 total skill levels could be met, and F2P players can currently train old P2P skills up to level 5 plus f2p skills. Newer skills do not have strange rocks. Utilizing the Strange Rocks to create a statue would provide an additional 10 kudos.

Therefore it is enough to reach the 50 kudos needed to complete the Varrock achievement and offer a glimpse into the museum.

fading shoal
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-Affinities seem to have too strong of an effect early on, making training more difficult and complex than it should probably be (should we still have specific weaknesses? Maybe regular elemental spells could have some effects instead).
-The new player experience seems reasonably good if the player starts with Necromancy but not otherwise. With the upcoming combat updates, adding some sort of guidance to the early progression of the original combat styles could be very beneficial. This could involve a combat tutor for each combat style (use signature heroes?) and a set of tasks/(mini)quests. These tasks could involve learning how to use specific abilities. Your tutor could also recommend enemies/quests depending on your level. Alternatively, a new low level dungeon(s) could be added where you can find appropriate targets to train on; then, as you level up, you can access deeper areas of the dungeon, finally reaching a boss at the end. The tasks/dungeon could be tied to new low level gear like capes or jewelry. Another option would be to have a limited use item to make slayer masters assign you monsters weak to your preferred combat style.
-The default combat mode for new players should probably be set to Revo only for autos and the player be taught about action bars and combat mode settings early on.
-The way Defence experience works isn't intuitive nor does it feel right. What if the original 'attack styles' returned as an intuitive UI element.
-Some key unlocks like adren permanence (infernal puzzle box)and dive could be taken a look at.

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-The use of prayer seems very limited without prayer restoring potions which aren't very available early on. What if there's a new low level prayer restoring consumable that's dropped by low level monsters. This would improve the utility of prayer early on.
-Shields probably need to be taken a look-at since they are a widespread element of the game and currently a potential noob trap.
-Regular poison (without cinderbanes) seems too weak and could be taken a look at.
-While the whole food/healing system could be improved, Regenerate seems like a noob trap most of the time (I'm not sure if it is still on by default but it also has the problem that it keeps draining adren once fully healed).
-Shattered worlds should probably be removed. It doesn't really fit the game in any way but is a very appealing way to train since you can get free gear and food, as well as having buffs, good hitchance and clusters of enemies to AoE.
-Bonfires could have a more significant effect on gameplay. Maybe it could be a slower, alternative way of healing when outside of combat? It could also give a significant buff to base HP regeneration or healing from food.

zinc kraken
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Regenerate isn’t a noob trap, it’s absolutely the most powerful tool in your kit for pre-soul split Slayer training and Dungeoneering. Adrenaline permanence with the Infernal Puzzlebox is only really a significant benefit once you actually know how the combat system works. That is a different issue though, 99% of content you’re going to be doing at early levels is just Revo click monster which doesn’t teach you anything.

Actually, the Signature Heroes show up in the Burthorpe Troll Cave. The developers did try to make them act like combat tutors but all they really do is give you a terrible Revo bar without explaining anything at all. Like you said, it would be much better if they at least talked about what the theme of each combat style is supposed to be so you can think about what style you’d like to learn.

vast epoch
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Do you have any proof of this statement that Jagex removing corrupt dragon over adding more T55 for F2P?

past briar
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I’d need to dig around deep for that statement. If it was from the forums, it’s a bit lost I’m afraid. 🤔

zinc epoch
vast epoch
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If it long time ago, the team is different from then and now, removing corrupt dragon and adding more t55 or mid level gear are two separate things. So the current focus is different.

fading shoal
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Here's a few ideas to improve the Prayer training experience in general:

  1. Add bone urns (complementary to existing urns for ashes)
  2. Add the option to offer completed urns at altars for improved xp.
  3. Add the option to offer prayer items at ANY prayer altar (for the smallest xp bonus; Chaos altar should probably also give this bonus since the wilderness isn't dangerous there).
wide cipher
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on the topic of urns.
Perhaps cleaning bones like in Rag and bone man could be a nice way to boost their xp value for some extra effort

calm mango
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feels like urns on altars makes sense since filled urns don't stack

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it brings back a nice bit of inventory space management that's kinda gone from slayer

dry skiff
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Slightly late to this thread but ive recently started helping my partner learn RS3, shes never played before. For me it was the sheer volume of information across the board that isn't communicated post tutorial and just "here you go" equally she is struggling with the lore, finding it strange that some characters act as if shes met them before, but because she isnt forced to do 5th age quests first she gets confused..

cloud smelt
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Hunter. Just Hunter

tame maple
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I posted this in another thread but i think it should go here too

In #design-chat we've had a lot of conversations about early game boss rebalances as well as early game quest rebalances, and how these could be better balance to serve a new player:

https://runescape.wiki/w/User:Kilsa/Health-Rebalances/Bosses
https://runescape.wiki/w/User:Kilsa/Health-Rebalances/Quests

the tldr is

Quests = A lot of rewards just need to be better
Bosses = Drop rates need to be significantly better, so that players can obtain say the T70 gear whilst they're still within the T70 bracket (no value killing something 500 times for a drop, gaining 15m exp, and having a level 70 sword at 99 attack).

RuneScape Wiki
Bosses

Bosses are powerful, usually unique monsters that are fought to accomplish an objective, be it the completion of a quest or minigame, or as part of a team player versus monster event. Many quests feature boss fights at their climaxes; such bosses are often the main antagonists of the quest series or are somehow related to the main antagonists.
S...

RuneScape Wiki
Quests

Quests are groups of interrelated tasks, usually involving a storyline, that can take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours or even a few days to complete.
A list of quests is available on the Quest tab of the Adventures icon on the Ribbon bar in the Interface. Clicking on a quest opens the Quest Overview screen; the 'Set Active' button mar...

sterile crane
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Apart from skilling rebalance, the two things i really felt the need to be rebalanced:
1- Quest bosses. I remember that back in the day at least i was worried about having food in case there was a boss. Replaying now most bosses i killed in about 3 hits.
2- Teleport progression. Lodestone let we teleport to places without having any requirements. I believe it should have some requirement to unlock (ex: city tasks or a quest). I believe having everything unlocked as a base feature harms the progression. Unlocked better ways to navigate the world is one of the best feelings of progression

zinc kraken
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Another problem with farming older bosses is that their respawn times are awful. Like even on Fastest at GWD1 over half my time is spent waiting for the boss to respawn just to kill him in 9 seconds and clean up the minions.

cloud smelt
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...that's not really an early game problem

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early game that time is for getting the loot and managing it

steep hound
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Crafting, for Ironman, is terrible early. Literally Al-karid gems till 80, optionally switch to gate which is gated behind 86 arch (should prolly also change this)... Considering it's a req for invention, it was the worst pain point for me.

cloud smelt
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because you aren't killing the bosses THAT easily lol

valid pewter
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Tbh a nice boost to early game crafting options would be having more cloths akin to Starbloom

rose ravine
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Yeah crafting definitely needs scaled out for magic and ranged gear.

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Using farming for magic and hunter for ranged.

tame maple
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divination exp all around the board needs to be juiced

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it sucks

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i also have been finding that the multiplicative factor of runecrafting and all of the boosts that come along with it at end game, make it near impossible for noobier players to make genuine profits from runecrafting

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like a level 50 runecrafter vs somebody with 120 runecrafting

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making 8x less runes per run

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8x less profit is absolutely insane

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you'd expect disparity of course, but 8x less is just whacky

rose ravine
tame maple
rose ravine
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They also don't leave the game because magic doesnt use them and nobody uses teleport magic anymore.

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Probably more consumed daily making vis wax than casting spells.

zinc kraken
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Combat spells on the Ancient Spellbook absolutely burn runes, but yeah standard combat spells cost basically none.

rose ravine
final rover
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8x less profit for 1000x less xp in the skill

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Killing QBD is apparently 2.5m gp/hr, a lot of high end bosses can go over 100m gp/hr, an 8x difference between the early/mid game and endgame is actually very close

rose ravine
cloud smelt
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I mean... there's also the giant holes in the early game magic weapon progression

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you've got like, seven different level 1 staves, then nothing until 30, then kinda nothing till the dungeoneering ones around 50,

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then Lunar at 65 and then staff of light at 75 and then you're into boss loot from there

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btw, since battlestaffs are still members only

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F2P just don't have 2h magic until the dungeoneering unlocks

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all of it's dual wield

thin shuttle
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At least there is no functional difference between 2h/dw in magic.
Only on weapon specials/passives, but f2p doesnt have to worry about that

cloud smelt
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the aesthetic difference is enough that for quite a while in my time F2P I only trained combat magic in Daemonheim

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also there very much was a functional difference for quite a while

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Concentrated Blast used to be DW only, Sonic Wave was 2h only

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and basic Conc blast kinda sucked lol

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anyway, point is, low level(particularly f2p) staves when?

thin shuttle
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That is true.
But im just saying that it is less of an issue nowadays.

Not that im happy that there is zero difference between 2h/dw, but that is a different discussion

north ledge
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maybe on combat update next month?

trim pine
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Divination being Caches only.

Dungeoneering being awkward to start without minigames/events

Prayer (osrs is working on allowing bones buried directly from the ground instead of pickup/bury)

Paths system are still needlessly complex to navigate.

Achievement Diary UI is complex to navigate/understand

vast epoch
trim pine
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This is early game, we're talking before bone crusher. The ability to bury bones in one click directly from the ground

vast epoch
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So you want to bury bones from a drop without picking it up?

valid pewter
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It makes the experience a lot smoother and less clunky to do tbf

trim pine
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Yeah basically add a "bury" click option similar to how logs have a light option

valid pewter
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I'd quite like to see an early-ish quest just allowing bones to be buried on any default altar (for a lesser boost than chaos altar etc.) tbh

trim pine
past briar
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Meh, seems awkward having to run after each bone on the ground to bury. You can just loot area spam them in your inventory while having bones on a keybind down to bury.

trim pine
vast epoch
valid pewter
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Yeah the fort altar is one that lets you do it too

vast epoch
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make cremation unlock useful right

valid pewter
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Depends if you're talking mass murder of mobs to bury the bones or just random one off

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If you kill a man and he drops a bone, chances are you'll ignore it cos not worth the effort to pick up and bury

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if you can just click on the loot pile to pick up the gp or w/e and bury at the same time it's basically 0 extra effort (And no bag spaces required)

vast epoch
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Yeah, that would be the basics, I and hunderd of other users on this discord would like Chaosteo achievement to be f2p.

tame maple
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Vanquish needs to be changed, its integrity ruining

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giving players a free T75 hybrid weapon was always stupid

past briar
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Except it requires 150 quest points allocated to the combat track.

rose ravine
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Honestly:

Take a good hard look at the content in the game and make it relevant. XP rates for most skills look at a 100-200 hour 120 which for the type of game runescape is feels fair, but loads of mechanics for all levels are poorly utilized/forgotten/otherwise obsolete as they were created for a game that existed 20 years ago and doesnt now. Quest rewards, core skill mechanics, area unlocks, even priff has fallen into obsolescence and the endgame hub in favor of the much more accessible fort. the game has become so vertically stacked and theres almost none of the horizontal gameplay that made it great in the first place.

rose ravine
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necro is far easier to obtain and is much more powerful than t75 hybrid gear.

wide cipher
rose ravine
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you caan skip barrows for gear already with the smithing update being as dense as it is

wide cipher
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And gwd1 is fully optional up to nex

rose ravine
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the entire game is optional

past briar
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Same can be said to just outright buy gear from the G.E., with the costs being gp rather than time spent on questing.

wide cipher
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Pathing directly to gwd2

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Well yes

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But that atleast moves the item economy

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And can't be used by irons

past briar
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(lol, irons)

tame maple
rose ravine
tame maple
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you passively get the quest points without ever having to train stats, because you need to do them regardless for other unlocks

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its a 0 time free t75

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versus going out of your way to farm a boss for a t75

rose ravine
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0 time? the minimum quest time is like 10 mins. not to mention the skill grind time

tame maple
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you are not understanding

rose ravine
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nobody is farming a boss for anything, they are buying it from the ge

sonic atlas
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150 qp you have 80 stats? what?

tame maple
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there are certain quests which you realistically have to do as a player, because they unlock important things IE curses, ancient magics etc etc

because you have to do these quests regardless, youre getting the 150 QP without actually going out of your way to do so

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AKA its a 0 time unlock

sonic atlas
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On every account on both games I tend to have 200 qp before I have base 50s

tame maple
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this isnt really even a discussion, theres a reason that vanquish rush has been the ironman strategy ever since it was added to the game lol

sonic atlas
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Very easy on rs3

rose ravine
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that could be said for grinding the combat skills for it too

tame maple
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nearly level 80 btw

sonic atlas
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vanquish did kinda kill the t75 tier of gear

rose ravine
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that only is the meta for irons. you can buy far better equipment from like an hour of arch lol

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just off the ge

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and sure, make it not usable for irons. solved

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it doesnt effect the main game though

tame maple
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except it does

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why buy a T70 or T75 when you can get one for free

rose ravine
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because what you get is trash

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vaanquish is not good

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its great when you cannot buy something and need to unlock more, but its trash otherwise

tame maple
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It removes the need for you to buy a T75 Melee, Magic and Ranged weapon

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that is terrible design health wise

rose ravine
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i'm looking at the stats of gear thhat tier, sec

valid pewter
rose ravine
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thats the reqs for sunspear at least

image.png
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considerably steeper

valid pewter
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Which makes the point not that it's a free weapon, more so you feel like it's too easy to obtain. But it's also non-augmentable (Vanquish, that is) therefore worse than pretty much any other t70

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tbf to use Vanquish to full capacity at t75 you need 75 attack, mage and range anyway

calm mango
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it feels bad because it's very substantially easier to obtain than the next step up

valid pewter
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So it's probably not that much of a stretch from having achieved that point to then get a sunspear

calm mango
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sunspear is probably easiest from there but there's still a huge barrier compared to a bare 150qp

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150qp being suuuuuper-doable shortly after account creation

valid pewter
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Tbf if fletching (and a mage gear) retier was done then it would lose all its purpose

past briar
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Gear from Gudrik is free T21 hybrid armour and T10 weapons. This devalues T1 and T10 equipment.

Is this also unhealthy? 🤔

rose ravine
valid pewter
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Yeah which realistically would make Vanquish obsolete outside of its specific purpose of being a quest weapon

swift tendon
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does the t75 really matter tho? the game isnt really built around it anymore, and as an iron you will only really go for the necro equipment anyways

valid pewter
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Trying to think if there's any reasonable way to try and estimate stat requirement for 150QP... But realistically either way, the t25 and t50 ones are both absolutely fine

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and t75 falls outside of early game I'd argue

swift tendon
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not to mention that getting t80 gear nowadays is stupidly easy

rose ravine
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getting away from tiering at all would be better imo, having variable stats and more horizontal gameplay would benefit the game overall

valid pewter
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Horizontal gamplay is... a mixed bag of benefit tbh.

rose ravine
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but we're also talking at getting a lot closer to how osrs works for equips and thats gonna piss a lot of folks off

rose ravine
valid pewter
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From an iron perspective, I very much like that I can just go "I got this weapon, it's good for everything" instead of "I need these 3 different weapons to do these 3 different bosses because bonuses"

rose ravine
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its certainly simpler, but thats not necessarily great for game health which is evidenced by this conversation at all

valid pewter
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I think on the lower end it's definitely better for game health, it's top end where you want to start branching into horizontal

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Like, in theory osrs lower levels have huge weapon variety

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In reality, you get a scimmy. And he gets a scimmy. Everyone gets a scimmy!

rose ravine
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the gameplay loop for quite some time has been 'log in for daily keys, stock proteans and wait for dxp' simple, but ultimately way worse for the game mostly in that you don't have to play it

valid pewter
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*The "optimal" gameplay loop

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Which yeah, I have feelings about DXP basically for that precise reason LUL

rose ravine
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and i fear that for the main game you can do like an hour of basically any skill at any level and have enough money to foot the bill for t75 anyway because most of the gear under 90 is obsolete

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so you're still basically not playing those levels, the gear is just sitting there waiting for oyu to pick it up

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invention helped a ton by chopping some of it up and i know they are always working at deleting cash from the game, but its far too slow considering how inflated the game is

calm mango
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I don't disagree @valid pewter but I think given our weapons currently scale up to t95 + bells and whistles, t75 is already a very reasonable place to say you're no longer on the lower end and ought to have weapons require investment and horizontal branching

valid pewter
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It's hard to properly rate it, but I feel like the issue around t70 is quite often that due to drop rates by the time you actually get the item you want to use you're past needing to use it

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Which makes a guaranteed source a better thing (Tho as I said earlier, retiering can solve that anyway)

rose ravine
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unpopular opinion: smithing rework made gear so dense from 1-100 that melee gear doesnt even make sense to buy outside of that until endgame

wide cipher
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Fast / quick vs some skilling grind to make

valid pewter
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Most boss weapons aren't fast/quick to get though

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It's just combat option vs skilling option (and in reality the skilling ones are inferior cos lack of augmentability)

rose ravine
#

you can simply buy them with the massive cash stacks it takes only a few hours to get

wide cipher
#

Specified 'buy'

valid pewter
#

Oh right, mb misread

#

Tbh when it comes to item acquisition I tend to always just view it from iron pov

#

Mostly because... yeah, if not an iron 99% of things the "best" way to get them is "just make gp and buy it"

rose ravine
#

if not the best, certainly the fastest

rose ravine
# tame maple why buy a T70 or T75 when you can get one for free

where i've landed with this is that 1. you're right adjacent. but 2. the game economy is so inflated that all early to dang near endgame is just make gp and buy it anyways that it effectively doesnt even matter that you are right, which is -much- worse looking at the future of the game.

calm mango
#

this is why the game should be balanced around the self-sufficient experience

rose ravine
#

a bandos set is like 500k. you can make 500k in like 20 mins doing arch

calm mango
#

the mainscape economy is irreversibly fucked

#

it doesn't provide useful information on anything

#

prices will fall where they will and players will react to that

rose ravine
#

but the majority of players do not play irons and that means they -must- balance it to have any possibility of longevity

tame maple
#

bandos being cheap doesnt mean its okay for stuff to be free

#

FWIW the reason bandos is cheap is because it doesnt get sunk out the game in invention to the smae degree as armadyl and subjugation

#

bandos components are worthless

rose ravine
#

i hear what you're saying, but it costs more to get 150 qp than 500k

#

yeah agreed

tame maple
#

its lossless

#

idk how youre not understanding this concept

rose ravine
#

its got a considerable timelock. you lose time off your life which is arguably the highest cost

#

but like i said, you are right more or less. but the bigger issue is that you can get t75 so easy already because of how much gp there is in the game. you can have it in your first hours of play easily.

#

aand what i'm saying is that at least vanquish costs considerable gold for stats and time for quests. as the game stands its far easier to get 20m at any level than it is to do 150qp of quests or the stats to get them

mortal bolt
#

is sunspear and t70 gear really early game? I thought they wanted feedback on lvl 1-40 gear

rose ravine
#

so in the greater conversation and how this relates to early game rebalance: fix the inflation that makes it better to skip playing

tame maple
#

Something I think worth bringing up here, whilst not currently an early game thing, is Invention

It feels like the gameplay experience as a whole would just outright be better if invention was literally just accessible from tutorial island? It'd mean players actually get to use a lot of the tools as intended

I'm just struggling to see the value of keeping it as an elite skill

#

i know devs in the past have toted' it being an elite skill due to the complexity, but it really isnt that complex. Moreover, the requirements seem arbitrarily forced as a content point for its original release, than actual important parts of the skill itself

rose ravine
mortal bolt
#

Tbh, I don't really care what they do with elite skills. I would prefer if the game had more tho. I simply like the idea of giving players something more to look forward to. I think elite skills add to progression which is very important for mmos.

I know they want players to get their hands on new content and that's fine. But just as there is content that only applies to new players, there is content that only applies to high lvled players. I don't think having some skills only being accessible to high lvled players at the beginning is a bad thing. It's the same thing as high lvled bosses, quests, etc. As new players progress they'll have access to this content too.

rose ravine
cedar sinew
#

Invention is so bad right now I don't think there would be any positive to making it accessible on account creation

valid pewter
#

It would be an extra thing of insane overload for a new player honestly

sonic atlas
#

doubly so when a huge chunk of invention only work on higher level items

valid pewter
#

Hadn't even considered that point lel.
Some of the skilling stuff does work early, but a huge amount would be unusable

cedar sinew
#

over time those three level 80 requirements have acted as a gate that makes sure the player is at least somewhat used to egregious runescape jank and frustrating friction to be able to engage with jank and friction the skill

#

(and even then most people with the requirements don't engage much with it)

valid pewter
#

Invention is on a whole other world of jank to the rest of rs tbh

cedar sinew
#

If the aim is to force the conversation so jagex doesn't hear the end of it about invention until they improve it, I can support

tame maple
valid pewter
#

Compared to any other skill in the game, it's incredibly complicated (Plus very RNG heavy)

#

Once you get into perks at least, unless you were to just limit perks to a higher level in it

tame maple
#

id argue archaology is more complicated

#

it has a lot of layers and activities to do which all link up

#

invention is mostly just augmenting something and training with it

#

the only complicated bit is the perk comboes, most of which people will just google for combos

valid pewter
#

which is also the major benefit of invention as a skill

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Idk I don't really see any benefit to low level/new players having invention any earlier, but there's plenty of risks/issues

cloud smelt
#

...there is a meaningful question of... can a low level player even engage with invention?

#

you need massive stacks of items just to get the comps to start engaging with it

#

which is more or less why everything that makes even really common comps is 1k+

valid pewter
#

Tbh access to disassembly in some form early on would be nice

calm mango
#

yeah I'm a bit tired of the 'keep everything until you unlock invention then spend 2 hours disassembling your whole bank' iron meta atm

valid pewter
#

Assuming you even know you'll need to do that at some point so you kept the items

vast epoch
#

For farmer npc in f2p does not drop seeds but p2p it does. It would make sense if farmer only drop potato and onion seeds at the very unless farming cap goes to level 20.

old moth
#

I have a Dumb idea, Can all 3 base combat styles get ways to train outside combat
Since Necromancy can be trained either by rituals or by combat making it versitile and easy to train, can the other styles get something like this EVENTUALLY.
A idea i have,
The things at the champions guild are cool out of combat ways to train but are fixed and locked behind levels so what if you could step in to a building/guild and do it at lv 1, give it like a auto doing the activity scaling xp with level and gear used
Range can use the Rangers guild in a Sort of Target practice. Shooting targets, scaling xp based on gear and level. And can even have distractions that like oh look a duck, or a squirrel is trying to take arrows, etc
Mage Has ways of being trained out of combat so not much to suggest here unless you wish to make a place in wizards tower or even in the ruins of the old tower where we meditate on the magics

rose ravine
#

Necromancy is a type of magic. it makes sense to train that way.

rose ravine
#

@mortal bolt really nailed it on this one imo. Slayer and dungeoneering have lost their identity and this is a cool way to bring it back. No cannons though, we learned that lesson on osrs lol

vast epoch
#

Since Gold Charms are f2p, it should not locked behind tutorial and burthrope area. Only best method to get them is fight gelatinous abominations a slayer level 1 creature. Why can't gold charm be dropped for other npcs to match with p2p npc that are in f2p area. First step is rebalance low level enemies with gold charms drops.

past briar
#

Frankly, I don't want to see the ground filled with useless charms for F2P.

wide pagoda
#

With the goal of balancing skills, XP, and drop rates, my suggestion would be to implement something similar to the Roar of Osseous across all regions of the game. It would be the same as the Roar where all players would need to contribute in some way to activate a temporary buff that increases XP, drop rates, and so on. This would especially help with Slayer drops, which are currently very rare, such as the dragon pickaxe with its 1/5000 drop rate.
I know this thread is focused on early game but I think it would be great across the board for early up to endgame.

untold scaffold
#

Honestly to me buffs such as roar feel just as bad as auras and everything that wants you to do X activity at exactly Y time or else you're missing out on whatever buff for that activity

wide pagoda
#

I agree that the way things are right now isn’t ideal, but assuming we eventually get a general rebalance in drop rates and XP, I think having a periodic buff would be a helpful extra feature, especially for cases of extreme bad luck.
Today, for example, if you want to complete a Slayer log, you already have to spend hours and hours on the same mob.

untold scaffold
#

No matter what the rates are. Their being an occasional temporary buff will always make it feel like you should probably go do that activity when the buff is active

wide pagoda
#

You’re right. Right now, for example, I’m running the Anachronia course and I haven’t managed to get a single totem drop.

valid pewter
#

Mixed feeling on it, because on the one hand it does encourage people to be skilling in the same area at the same time, so it's a nice community boost.
On the other, yeah, it feels bad to miss it. Could be nice to have the 'bottled Guthix cache' style system on all of those peridoci things so you can save some of it for later

vast epoch
#

most of the f2p npc based drop gold charm in p2p at a lower rate than giants, hellhound and gelatinous abomination.

zinc kraken
#

You can’t access the Taverley Dungeon hounds though, only the crazy strong Wilderness ones. Not really worth it to farm those.

vast epoch
zinc kraken
#

Oh ok Thumpup

compact bane
#

Another thing that we can also add to the Champions Guild is the Quest Caravan. I think the Guild just makes sense that it would also have maybe a wall with all the Questing stuff and that May has set up shop in the Guild. It would visually clear up the area for South of Varrock while also enhance the Champion Guild as a major unlock for early game accounts.

final rover
#

It would lock the caravan behind a specific quest, although that is an iconic quest which imo doesn't have a useful/memorable reward currently

compact bane
#

Thats a valid point.

cloud smelt
#

mmmmm... you do need it for the later Hero's and Legend Quests

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...I dunno that it'd actually be a problem to lock the caravan behind Dragon Slayer though

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It'd mean that you when you first get to it you have access to at least 1 die for sure(because requirements to do Dragon Slayer)...

#

I dunno, I don't remember Dragon Slayer ever being particularly hard combat wise and if you have too much trouble with the puzzles like... it's not the worst puzzles in questing by a looooooong shot

paper juniper
#

100% this. There's so much content in this game that's so fun but isn't even half as useful as training normally so it's left behind as dead content. Simply make things feel more rewarding and the players will naturally come back to them.

mortal bolt
#

Mays caravan stuff could be in the Champhions guild. There could just be a "Champion's Guild member only" section or "full member section" (this could just be the upstairs

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Once players complete dragon slayer they could become full Champion's guild members and be allowed to go upstairs or whatever

#

Same thing could happen with hero's guild and legends guild

#

Also doesn't osrs have a champions cape? I think having that as a reward for completing dragon slayer and it being the best f2p cape stat wise would be dope

calm mango
valid pewter
#

As of 29 May 2018, only 376 players were eligible to claim the Champion's cape.

#

DAng

mortal bolt
cloud smelt
#

a BIS cape in F2P genuinely doesn't even have to be good

#

your other options last I checked are literally the "Xstorm" capeline

#

it could literally be half the Legend Cape and still be BIS by a country mile lol

mortal bolt
#

I suppose the champions cape could be rewarded at the end of dragon slayer and later it could be upgraded visually and statwise once after defeating all the champions. Or it could just be something else, whatever. A champion's cape would just make sense cause it's the champions guild.

I suppose it could be a champion's amulet? maybe?

cloud smelt
#

eh

#

new BIS amulet would actually be hard

mortal bolt
#

I mean it could just be bis for f2p

cloud smelt
#

F2P has Power and Strength and Defence and Magic Ammy's

#

also Accuracy still exists

#

so like, new BIS Ammy is either just barely BIS for tribrid and is like, 16-17 all, or it's BIS for everything at once and 20 all

mortal bolt
#

That's fine, Champion's ammy could just be better than all of those. It could just give +20 all stats or something

vast epoch
mortal bolt
#

I mean dung still has gravite weapons which are a huge thing already

#

I'd prefer a cape too, but if not a cape i'd say an ammy would be the next best thing since it's something that can be worn and be visible by all combat styles

vast epoch
#

Maybe a champion ring or a f2p quest cape from champ guild could be a good candidate

mortal bolt
vast epoch
#

ok

mortal bolt
#

You also can't really see rings unless you examine someone ig

vast epoch
#

true

mortal bolt
#

Hmmm... Seeing osrs Champion's cape really makes me wish it be that. Also considering it goes along with the legend's cape.

If not a Champion's cape perhaps a Dragon Slayer's Cape? Or a Dragon Cape could be purchasable after the dragon slayer quest in the champion's guild?

past briar
#

F2P's current BiS cape isn't even accessible anymore. It depends what happens with the DXP token shop later on, but still.

paper juniper
#

I agree with your guys' implication here. The best way to improve the early game is to make ftp better

calm mango
#

FWIW all I really meant was call it 'Cape of Champions' and make sure it has a distinct design

#

personally my preference would be for the blue cape in the Champions Guild to stand as the Cape of Champions

final rover
#

I really wish there was more to the Champion's Guild (and ig all the quest guilds)

calm mango
#

+1

valid pewter
#

Myth's guild when (albeit very much not early game kekw)
Honestly I've long since wanted a Reaper style system for skilling, and having that based in the three guilds for low/mid/high level assignation could be a neat idea to give you that bit more from completing the quests (Which, despite being very milestoney lore wise, gameplay wise are fairly substandard rewards imo)

mortal bolt
# calm mango FWIW all I really meant was call it 'Cape of Champions' and make sure it has a d...

That be fine too. Though I must say i don't like these careful changes. Ik osrs exists and parallels between the games are awesome.

But imo things like this just seem to portray some sort of shame or submission to osrs. Like why even bother dropping the 3 from runescape 3? Like rs3 can't do this because osrs has this or whatever. Like are the games just trying to be copy paste now? At least osrs isn't, but rs3 does seem to be.

Like I wonder if osrs players are concerned about such things. We can't do that because rs3 has this already. Ig maybe? but imo they just seem to do their own thing and that's one of things that makes osrs awesome.

I'd just go full bold and make it the Champions Cape or just something else entirely tbh.

calm mango
#

it'd be really cool to have a reward from the Champions Challenge called the Champions Cape in RS3 too imo

#

the issue is just having an item sharing a name and in one game it's newbie's first achievement-oriented cape and in the other it's thousands of hours deep

mortal bolt
# calm mango I don't think that's what I'm saying

I think so too. What i was trying to say too is that rs3 and osrs don't have to do the same with everything. I think it be fine that in one game the Cape is nooby and in the other it has more prestige.

It just seems that there has been a push to copy everything osrs has into rs3, which I think it should in some aspects, in everything or things like this, I think it's just a bit silly

calm mango
#

yeah I think that's where we diverge. In a situation where many (perhaps most?) RS3 players have spent a good amount of time in OSRS I think it's fair to view this kind of thing as a constraint.

cloud smelt
#

Call it the Champion Cape then

#

the same way the Legend's Guild Cape is the Legend Cape

#

or literally just "Champion's Guild Cape"

lost summit
#

Suggested NPCs to drop low-level seeds:

  • Guam - Gelatinous abomination (combat level 2), Farmer (7), Dwarf (9, 14, 39, 44)
  • Redberry - Farmer (level 7), Dwarf (9, 14, 39, 44), Guard (18, 25, 35)
  • Marrentill - Wolf (level 8, 11), Minotaur (12, 15), Hobgoblin (15, 18)
  • Tarromin - Minotaur (level 12, 15), Hobgoblin (15, 18), Hill Giant (26)
    • Level 18 hobgoblins apparently already drop marrentill and tarromin seeds. The level 15 ones should also drop them.
  • Harralander - Hill Giant (level 26), Ice warrior (40), Catablepon (43)
  • Irit - Ice warrior (level 40), Catablepon (43), Chaos dwarf (47)
mortal bolt
#

Just had another idea. Zaida and clue stuff look weird now standing outside of ge. What if they were moved inside of ge on the South West side of it, opposite of the clan area?

Further, if the idea of moving May and the quest area stuff into the Champion's guild is too much, maybe just move it to one of the corners in GE too?

Could possibly move well of good will to a corner too.

blissful frigate
#

Maybe silver and gold bar smelting could speed up by one tick, putting them in line with the metal bars. Having them at varying tick durations creates a potential noob trap where they assume to be making decent gp/h smelting these, unaware the smelting process takes longer.

blissful frigate
#

Add some balls of wool to all crafting stores. Even if it's locked behind a quest (Sheep Sheerer?) or the stocks are small, it would make a pretty big difference for amulet making given it's such a lengthy process compared to making necklaces.

vast epoch
#

I mentioned that farmers needs potatoe and onion seeds in f2p which they do drop p2p. None of the f2p monster that drop in p2p does not drop in f2p expect for guards from cities, goblin raiders and burthrope area npcs. The npc that drop potato and onion seeds in f2p are white knight, hill giant, farmer, black knight, ice fiends and hobgoblin. Please fix this to make f2p better at be confirmed mostly in one area just like the gold charms.

compact bane
#

@mortal bolt Honestly I was thinking bout where to move Zaida but I think it should be a specific place it works. For example if we find out Charos is from Havenhythe then they can add a specific location for Zaida there since Charos is heavily implied to making Treasure Trails and having him have an origin for it would make sense. Otherwise Zaida can stay there for now but eventually a specific location that fits would be thematically the best.

Also if I remember correctly that one part of the GE thats left is where Games Room from Burthrope is going to shift towards if Mod Blkwitches gamejams are all going live now.

tame maple
#

I'm just going to repost something I put in PVME as feedback for the combat beta, because for the most part, I think it's more applicable to the early game rebalance

#
  • Elemental Spell damage scaling
    • Magic spell scaling is weird. IE Why do strike spells scale to t28? It completely invalidates the unlock of bolt spells (level 17), until you get to level 29 magic and finally outscale strike spells.
      • Unlocking new spell 'tiers' should feel rewarding
      • Strike spells should only scale to t16 damage
      • Bolt spells should only scale to t40 damage
      • Blast spells should only scale to t60 damage
      • Wave spells should only scale to t80 damage
      • Surge spell should only scale to t99 damage

This type of vertical progression makes it so the previous tier of spell types is good up until the point you unlock the next tier IE strike -> bolt

  • Monster Stats

    • Almost all none-boss monsters in the game need a HP increase. 100* OSRS HP is a good frame of reference. You currently get to the point in early game where, by t20, you can 1 hit almost all the mobs. It makes it difficult to actually train combat stats.
    • Defensive affinities on most mobs need to be considerably higher. IE a player using T1 should always have high accuracy vs a goblin/rat. Currently sits at around 50% if you're not using the weapon type they're weak to.

  • Weakness system:

    • Weakness should probably just be a positive damage amplifier, rather than an accuracy increase. This doesn't need to be big. It should still feel good to off style stuff. IE a 10% damage boost for using the style they're weak too, still feels great. Huge disparities do not.
    • Most* early and mid game mobs should have no weakness at all. It isn't needed. IE why does a goblin need to be weak to air spells?

  • Pathing System

    • Remove it
    • Introduce an NPC who gives vague tasks, and rewards players for completing them. (Look at Adventure Jon NPC from OSRS) https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Adventurer_Jon
      • These would be as simple as "train range to 10" followed by "train range to 20", rewarding t10 range & t20 range respectfully for their completion.
        • OSRS only scales these tasks up to level 20.

  • Starter Gear

    • Needs to be improved so that players can start combat the way they want to:
      • New players should probably be starting with a 2h sword, bow, staff, alongside some runes and arrows. This way, they can forge their own path with the combat style they want.
past briar
#

Tbh, the whole tiering / runes on basic spells is wonky if you think about it, especially compared to the types melee and range have and how they access that:

  • A spell scales up as high as that elemental variant goes until the next tier. So air strike scales up to air bolt - 1. Air bolt up to air blast - 1, etc.
  • You unlock different elemental spells at higher levels, often air to water to earth to fire.
    • So depending on which level you sit on, the choice of elemental spells caps out crossing several tiers. Level 50? Air blast, water blast, earth bolt and fire bolt are basically your best spells to pick.
      • Hence fire blast is a noob trap in F2P.
  • The rune costs are also... odd to say compared to their production in runecrafting. Air is the easiest to make, following into water, earth and fire.
    • Air is always mandatory.
    • Whereas fire spells can scale the highest, it does require fire runes, which is the slowest to craft of the 4.
  • Nowadays, the choice in elemental type only matters for weakness, and hence accuracy. If it doesn't matter (e.g. almost any monster not weak to a specific element, you already have 100% regardless, etc.), there's almost 0 reason to pick spells with high costs.
    • It basically means air spells are superior. 1 less rune to carry around / involved in the costs. Why bother creating and bringing water / earth / fire runes with you if just the air runes for the air elemental does the same job? Like, good job running fire altars for the fire runes for a spell that is just as strong as its air variant where you already had the air runes for.
  • Meanwhile melee is just stab, slash and crush weapons. Ranged simply have arrows, bolts and thrown. All those are often within the same tier to create and use. Nothing complicated to think about.