July Quest Qol and Game Health Update - This Week In RuneScape

[rare bramble]

Check it out here - https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/july-quest-qol-and-game-health-update---this-week-in-runescape

[shell kraken]

rip 0/1 mech glacor o7

[spiral vault]

Do we know if the very wildy sack updates will be applied to currently unopened sacks?

[lilac wagon]

Did the Wiki people get a heads up regarding the drop rate change?

[sick rain]

can't believe jagex actually thought that a 40 water rune drop from hm ag is a good idea

[thin vessel]

Remember, that is the base quantity

[bitter canopy]

I thought i read somewhere that Iaia is getting changed to not drop the blowpipe pieces. Is that correct? And is that already in the game, or a future update?

[velvet tree]

That was last week already iirc

[naive schooner]

I think it was, but I will be testing it myself soon. Opened all 8447 of my normal sacks though:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/798508523670994944/1394263268851187732/image.png?ex=68762c5b&is=6874dadb&hm=18350c5dd9bc416d7785a89377ac278cfa70319099fe137d8e42e6e13ffa914c

[velvet tree]

We’ll see shortly if there’s a new item id

[spiral vault]

How do we verify that?

[sick rain]

no

[sick rain]

yeah but compared to the other ag drops this feels like a jagex executive spitting in my face through my monitor

[velvet tree]

By checking the cache

Once https://chisel.weirdgloop.org/gazproj/cache/items_diff.html gets updated (probably within the next couple hours?)

Or if someone else checks themselves

[uncut trail]

Oh cool, more updates, meanwhile mobile players on motorola devices still cant play

[cedar seal]

Are blast and laceration boots meant to be removed from Raksha log, or?

[steel swift]

Get a better phone

[wild hearth]

“Increased the chance to receive a Bow of the Last Guardian piece by ~10% at enrages above 500%”

• Can a mod confirm if this was supposed to be at 500% and above? Camping 500’s is really common so i want clarification if it works on that exact enrage or not

[rugged heron]

would the new drop rates including the rares work for a streak started before the update at arch glacor?

[lilac wagon]

they said earlier you'd have to claim the streak but not confirmed if this is the case

[light hinge]

Kerapac drops unnoted super magic potions (hardmode)

[lilac wagon]

Arch Glacor normal mode drops seem to be unnoted too

[grand cargo]

i feel like zamorak was hit a bit too hard,done a bit of 200% on my iron and while the value doesn't matter to the iron,it's still sad to see 1.5m for a 200% kill. Imo this makes zamorak dead content to me on my main,i could do 500% sure but a lot of people will never reach that level,just my opinion

[spiral vault]

Oh dope. Thanks for sharing

[lilac wagon]

That's still 15m+ plus an hour of commons, plus BLM on rares

[grand cargo]

it's an extremely high end boss with pretty tough mechanics/dps checks,15m per hour on it is jack shit no offence

[lilac wagon]

200% enrage though is a dps dummy, no offence

[grand cargo]

don't respond if you're gonna troll/make fun of people please

[lilac wagon]

how is it a troll? Should be skipping most mechanics at 200%

[grand cargo]

for some it might be a damage sponge but for the majority of ppl it won't even be worth the effort to learn

[lilac wagon]

the effort to learn is the better rewards at higher enrages, otherwise the money would just be camping lower and nobody would bother pushing. This is assuming that enrages of say 1k+ is giving better common loot than 1.5m a kill

[grand cargo]

makes sense,but even then,the vast majority won't even touch it with loot like this,which is an issue,i'm not saying revert it back to what it was before but like a small bump up makes sense to me

[rocky stream]

People been spoiled for ages that they think this is not good gp/h with the changes anymore. Its decent and no bossing is not dead. Youll still make more then enough money and its better for the economy overall 🙂

[grand cargo]

its gp/hour is the same as the majority of afk slayer mobs

but i see ppl miss my point

[rocky stream]

Then to me it seems afk slayer mobs should be nerfed

[lilac wagon]

how many afk slayer mobs drop t95 weapons? or the value of

[rocky stream]

People been saying how busted zamorak loot was since release.

[lilac wagon]

Exactly. 8-10m in commons and that was sub 1k enrage with a 1/40 chance of a few hundred mil in bow piece

[rocky stream]

People just dont like their gp being nerfed cuz they got used to it but deep down they knew the whole time this was busted.

[grand cargo]

like i said,it was insanity before,but at 200 its barely profitable

[rocky stream]

Youre dying alot then if it isnt profitable :p

[grand cargo]

i die maybe once an hour

[lilac wagon]

ouch lol

[rocky stream]

Then you just spewing lies :p

[rain nova]

just tping out before they die 😛

[grand cargo]

i didn't say not profitable

i said barely profitable

[rocky stream]

Even if nerfed in half and with not the best of speedkills it should be 35 m/h how is that barely profit for such a early enrage thats crazy good :p

[grand cargo]

show me how 200% is 35m per hour

and ill agree

[rain nova]

Show us how it's barely profitable and we'll agree

[rocky stream]

That includes not only common loot but the uniques you get along the road it averages out to probably that

[grand cargo]

input cost of 200 zamorak,lets say we dont take soups and no grim,thats 11m input

[rocky stream]

sailfish soup ?

[grand cargo]

yeah idk why the wiki thinks thats a good idea but oh well

[rain nova]

Either someone bad at pvm that they need all the healing they can get. Or just a memer

[rocky stream]

Try using some other food then that would be a good start and not everybody uses grim there aswell :p but still more then 'barely' profit :p

[grand cargo]

uhm what

i said

lets say i dont take a grim

and even then,if you necro it,like 80% of ppl your input cost is even greater,necro runes,ecto,...

blue blubbers and guthix rests are more expensive then brews/rocktails so yeah

[rocky stream]

If you only do 200 % enrage you barely use food tho so those wiki numbers i would take with a grain of salt. Also i never use penance powder. But if its like 20 m + profit for that enrage thats still good imo for that low enrage. And if you wanna make more profit you should start doing higher enrages just simple as that. The point is for such a low enrage its still decent :p

[grand cargo]

i just think that for bossing its a bit too low,seeing as theres afkable mobs that give comparable money

[uncut trail]

Or, just make shit that works.
I dont even have a motorola, it's just crazy to me that devs are fine with their game not working for months and not caring.

[wanton forge]

Your update sucks jagex 😄

[grand cargo]

my point being that bossing should at least be a bit more rewarding then slayer,maybe not 0-99% zamorak but 100+ should be a tad bit more

[rain nova]

My thoughts almost every week

[rocky stream]

I think slayer afk should be nerfed but thats just me :p

[grand cargo]

yeah thats also one way of looking at it

[rocky stream]

Surely not on the 4th of August :p

Little kitty boss

[rain nova]

I don't even know when i'll be able to interact with the boss

[wanton forge]

In particular this one sucks x100 more than regular

[rain nova]

With my grand total of 0 necromancy xp

Haven't been able to interact with new content in almost 2 years because everything needed to have some necro requirement for god knows what reason

( and yes i know i could just do some necro but at this point i have personal meme reasons to avoid it untill it's my last skill needed for 5.8)

[pale grail]

Really? IT hought slayer was dead? Which afk slayer mobs make that much gp?

[rain nova]

cows

[unreal cargo]

are the new drops on tables supposed to be unnoted items? feels like a strange change to do that

[grand cargo]

nightmares,abyssal savages/beasts/lords/lost grove creatures,.....

[quick talon]

did anyone else test whether their ag streak was actually reset or not like they said would be?

i did a streak of 1 to test pre update and stayed after and got spirit weed seeds on 2nd kill which were replaced so confirmed old seed

[rain nova]

Which new items exactly drop unnoted? Theres been some talk about the magic pots from kerapac in #design-chat which seem to have a status of "Unknown if intended to drop noted/unnoted" but feedback has been passed on

[unreal cargo]

all the gems in normal mode AG, kerapac pots are the only two I've personally confirmed. I'd make an educated guess and say anything new on drop tables that has a 'drop to floor', if there are others

oh and the new salvage at nm ag too*

[sonic stratus]

mine also wasn't reset, probably forgot to do it haha.

[quick talon]

did you start the killstreak sometime before today? just trying to confirm it wasn't some weird check that only reset those that didn't start same day as update 😛

[sonic stratus]

yeah previous streak, spirit weed seeds first item, pretty obviously not reset

same way streaking changes worked previously, your old streak uses old seed

they just said they were resetting streaks with this update and forgor

[cursive yarrow]

Is there supposed to be something in the patch notes about slayer? It just says "slayer" as a single bullet point and then... Moves on.

[quick talon]

thats the title for the next section listing drops from slayer mobs

[cursive yarrow]

Oh, ok, that makes sense. It threw me cause all the others are bold and have indented children.

[rare bramble]

looking at it the note should be indented

[cursive yarrow]

I didn't mean to criticize your bullet points 😬 sorry

Lol

[wild hearth]

“Increased the chance to receive a Bow of the Last Guardian piece by ~10% at enrages above 500%”

• Can a mod confirm if this was supposed to be at 500% and above? Camping 500’s is really common so i want clarification if the better drop chance works at 500%, or only above it

[rare bramble]

All good mate I just noticed it in that screenie 😛

[rapid carbon]

oof as a new ironman starting, the necronium being removed from wildy rewards is harsh...

[rain nova]

Nah

Wildy events still give way to much for how much effort/time you put into it

[velvet tree]

Looks like Gaz updated it, 10 new items that appear to be cosmetics and no other diffs

So preexisting sacks should probably roll the new table

[brittle tide]

Didn’t see if Dark Nilas are getting buffed but I’m getting shafted over here

[silver marsh]

So pre-saved sacks have the new rate/buff?

[lost galleon]

Can I get some clarification on precise drop rates of rares, particularly about "% increased rate" which is ambiguous:

(kerapac HM) Increased the drop rates of Fractured Staff of Armadyl pieces by 13%.
Previously this was 1 in 450.
Is this now 450x0.87= 1 in 391.5?
Is it 450/1.13 =1 in 398.2?
Is there some rounding and it is exactly 1 in 390 or 400?

(kerapac HM) Increased the drop rates of the remaining rares by 6.2%.
Previously this was 1/192 after failing a staff piece roll.
Is this now 192x0.938 = 1 in 180.1?
Is it 192/1.062 = 180.8?
Is there some rounding and it is exactly 1 in 180?

(glacor HM) Increased the base chance for a rare roll and contribution from enrage by 50%. This results in an increase of ~50% chance to roll a rare.
This formula was understood to be 1/1,000 + enrage x 1/100,000 + streak x 1/40,000.
Does this change the base coefficient to 1.5/1,000 and the enrage coefficient to 1.5/100,000?
Is the streak coefficient unchanged?

Increased the chance to obtain a Frozen Core of Leng by 4%. Decreased the chance to obtain a Scripture of Wen by 2%. Decreased the chance to obtain a Leng Artefact by 2%.
Are these changes additive and do they apply to the roll after receiveing a rare, such that the core/scripture/artefact chances change from 20%/40%/40% to 24%/38%/38%?

(zamorak) Increased the chance to receive a Bow of the Last Guardian piece by ~10% at enrages above 500%
Is this a change to the table after rolling a rare?
If so, which rare gets its chance reduced (I am assuming codex), and what are the new values?
Currently these are 17.5% at 500+, 18.5% at 750+, 19% at 900+, 20% at 1000+, 21% at 1250+, and 22.5% at 2000+.

.

(raksha) Removed Laceration and Blast Diffusion Boots. Redistributed the chance to get this drop to other rare items on the drop table.
Previously, the overall chance of a rare was 1/50, is this value unchanged?

(vorkath NM) Increased the chance to obtain a Invoke Lord of Bones Incantation Codex by 17%.
Previously this was 1 in 300.
Is this now 300x0.83 = 1 in 249?
Is it 300/1.17 = 1 in 256.4?
Is there rounding and its exactly 1 in 250?

(vorkath NM) Increased the chance to obtain Vorkath's Spike by 10%.
Previously this was 1 in 50.
Is this now exactly 1 in 45?

(vorkath HM) Increased the chance to obtain a Invoke Lord of Bones Incantation Codex by 40%. Increased the chance to obtain Vorkath's Scale by 40%
Previously these were both was 1 in 250.
Are they 250x0.6 = 1 in 150?
Are these now 250/1.4 = 178.6?
Is there rounding?

[brittle tide]

Also are existing Vorkath loot chests effected?

[silver marsh]

I wonder how many people got raksha log on login today. 🤣

[odd kraken]

Boots weren't removed from log

[brittle tide]

Existing boots are still on his collection log. Probably will be removed in a week or two. Ironically the only boots I don’t have are the ones he still drops 😅

Also please clarify if Dark Nilas rates are buffed. I’ve had one drop in 313 HM glacor (82% chance to get more than 1 drop) and of course it also happened to be on the first kill of a streak 🙄

[silver marsh]

Ok but you can’t get more?

[brittle tide]

I’m sure it’ll be fixed and put into slayer collection logs only instead, but I think yes

[velvet tree]

I’m guessing they should, since they’re the same actual item, and they stack so they can’t have extra data stored in the item itself

[pale grail]

how long before the wiki can calculate how the drop changes affect the profit per hour at these bosses

[fair cape]

Just remove all of Rasial's non-unique drops at this point.
He already spits in your face by dropping momentos, but that wasn't enough apparently.

[lavish coral]

rasial common nerfs are heavy handed. but even so, he literally drops all of the best in slot necro gear in the game. which is wild. nothing even remotely close to that exists for the other 3 styles. hard to be as upset about his gp/hr now or his commons nerfs

it's like 40-60 hours on average to farm the entire rasial log. that's 40-60 hours for best in slot armor (ALL 5 PIECES) and weapons for necro

full vestments takes 60-100+ hours of zammy (a much harder boss than rasial) and that's just 4 pieces and no weapons. still need to do 8-12 hours of magister, and if you're an iron then 100+ hours of keys to the crossing. then you have to do 50+ hours of hard mode glacor for lengs. or at least 30+ hours for one leng and then a few hours of abyssal lords for scourge

not saying I like that melee best-in-slot is like 300+ hours on iron. i'm just saying acting like rasial common nerfs was one of the most heinous things to happen lately in the game just isn't justified

[sonic stratus]

Not comparing vs other bosses, Rasial seeds did not need a 95% nerf. Incredible overreaction.

[lavish coral]

yes, too heavy handed I agree. but at the end of the day not an enormous deal.
blame the people doing 10k+ kc on their mains for the massive seed influx that made jagex want to nerf. maybe jagex shouldn't have designed rasial so that he can be afk'ed in cringebloom

[fair cape]

I already told them they can easily make AG harder to KS by changing the scaling and got told "it won't matter to the people doing 200ks".

Considering the amount of things you can afk in cryptbloom, I'd say that the problem is cryptbloom more than the boss; but that doesn't mean you can't change both.

[sonic stratus]

Nah it's a boss issue, every other t95 is hard un-afkable for many reasons. Most of them being movement, which critically, Rasial doesn't require.

Realistically he's not afked that much just because the setup is so high req, and it's not the most afk (need to loot, tele War's, do some gcds before kill starts, etc). It's difficult to fathom that'd be the reasons they dumpster the commons and leave the uniques the same (which are like 95% of the profit anyways).

[livid blade]

is it intended that the boots are still on raksha log?

[rain nova]

Probably not. But would be funny if it was

[fair cape]

Considering how much testing they do, yes.

[rain nova]

They test?

[fair cape]

Kerapac dropping unnoted potions. 😂

[fair cape]

Yes that was the joke.

[rain nova]

But that might be intended. Just like all the other new stuff that drops unnoted 😛

[burnt perch]

I get nilas' like 5 times more common at the start of the streak rather than later. (3.7k hm kc here)

[hollow canyon]

@stiff yoke so you cannot type here

[stiff yoke]

Oh it's fixed. Sweet. Sorry and thanks @hollow canyon

[hollow canyon]

Since ive gone 700 kills wothout a nilas drop that 313 sounds like a buff to me

[fair cape]

Wow I thought my luck or that guy with 0 Rasial drops' luck was bad

[hollow canyon]

We made a joke of it cause i had 7 nilas and got a core drop, was 3 nilas away from completing log

3 other cores before a nila drop

[brittle tide]

Really wish Nilas quantity was impacted by streak and enrage somehow

[fair cape]

It is

Oh you mean both

[brittle tide]

Not enrage, just streak

Yeah

Like just let me camp 500% for a minimum quantity of 10 or something lol

[hollow canyon]

Im not making a full opinion until I get to play with this update for a couple days as main bosses i do in the game are aod, zam, and ag. Only 1 of them not being touched this update

Since youve been typing a while fortunate I will note the character limit on discord posts. If you hit the limit just highlight and cut the last paragraph or so and paste it in a 2nd message

Instead of what others do where they backup the whole shebang and try to reword it entirely to make it shorter

[stiff yoke]

So I hope this gets seen or doesn't get pushed far into the section:

I have a concern. This update went live and it's suppose to help the "long term" aspect of the game. Which I can understand why they'd want that, but it does affect the present of the game to where it won't make people want to play for the long run if that make sense.

For instance: Jagex, you guys say reducing the common loot so things will tend to go up in price and direct GP into the game will be reduced. Yes that's good, but for casuals who get kills who aren't speed-runners or anything get rewarded nothing for killing a boss over and over again with no loot to make yourself want to keep going.

On top of that, here's a big problem for me. Raksha. A boss where it's not hard, but definitely by all means not easy. On average for the non-speed runners / end game people they're averaging 3-4 minute kills maybe more, maybe less. You remove the boots from the drop tables which is a fantastic idea, but what was the other effect? Oh yes, let's also remove the direct GP drops into the game and now the commons that are already terrible from that boss become EVEN MORE worse.

I did a quick session of 20 kills at Raksha and i was able to get some commons worth 2-3m then 500k-1m. That was well worth when you can't get a RDT chance. (Rare drop table) However, because you moved the boots out of the equation you'd think that's going to fix your problem right? No.

Sure that helps "WHEN YOU DO" hit RDT drops, but still the chances are slim. You can go double to triple times the amount of kills being dry before getting a "rare" drop and at that point you're so burnt out of wanting to even continue. Then on top of that the entire time your commons are even worse and you get no reward for wanting to continue.

[sleek seal]

tbh we need to give time for the reduction in alchs entering the game to cause price reductions in other items throughout the game, this is def not gonna feel great short term but should still be able to sustain supply costs while grinding despite these nerfs

[stiff yoke]

However anyone here is more than welcome to counter with this and let me know if i'm in the wrong viewing of this topic.

I'm just voicing what I have experienced with this update and it's really affecting me wanting to PVM. I will get another 20 kills with this update being live and now each drop of common is 2x worse and less. I'm talking literal 30-50k drops from a boss fight/ That's ridiculous. I understand rare drop chances are better by removed boots from the game or reducing the common drops to open up more room for the RDT, but that still doesn't help when you have to roll and win the dice of hitting the RDT to begin even getting a drop.

What I'm basically trying to say is that I really don't like the new system of loot with this update. I understand it's for the long term, but some of us won't want to keep PVMing for the long term with these changes.

You say you want people to be able to see those rare drops drop more, but the RDT chance of getting are slim to none and in the meantime of not getting the rare drops, you're left with not only worse, but less commons over and over again during your boss fights. It's just really dis-encoureging to kill a boss over and over again for basically nothing in return.

I hope this is civil enough and read thoroughly for everyone to see my concern and problem with the update.

[sleek seal]

It's actually relatively arbitrary how much loot a boss gives you in raw gp value, given that gp supply will shape item costs

if there is less gp supply entering the game then prices /should/ go down over time

so the purchasing power you gain from the gp/hr of farming a boss would not necessarily change

Also, if farming a boss becomes less desirable as you speak of then in theory the price of the uniques would go up, increasing the gp/hr by potentially a lot

[fair cape]

@lavish coral Hey I thought about what you said, and you are right. Without Necromancy, I would be like camping Vindicta in elder rune or something. 💀

[stiff yoke]

And that all leads back to my point though. The changes of removing the boots from RDT would help you get those rarer drops. Not exactly because the chances of RDT is still slim-to-none and you grinding towards maybe hitting it go down even more because the commons of per drop is 30-50k on average.

I don't see how those drops would go up in price if they've decreased the amount you get and what you get.

[sleek seal]

wdym next to none? its like 1/100 chance to hit a decent drop no?

[stiff yoke]

1/319.

[sleek seal]

no, its 1/319 but theres 3 codex's for example

so you have a 1/106 chance to hit one of those

[stiff yoke]

Isn't it 1/319 to hit a RDT roll then 1/3 of which boots..?

[sleek seal]

nah

in this example you can just divide the codex's by 3

and you have the droprate to receive any of those 3

[sleek seal]

if it worked like this then a specific codex would be like 1/1k

[fair cape]

Bii that profile message is so silly. 😂

[sleek seal]

[stiff yoke]

So to my topic is it all completely wrong in your view?

[sleek seal]

yeah given that with a boss like raksha the uniques are pretty common all things considered

obviously if you're an iron grinding for specific codex its a lot harder but for a main making money you're gonna get loot p often

[stiff yoke]

@hollow canyon Were you going to type? I saw quite a bit of dot dot dot from you

[marble pier]

laceration and blast diffusion boots are still apart of Raksha's collection log

[hollow canyon]

Got on a plane, overall its a change for the better. I'm sorry if you feel its less rewarding but theres so many bosses available and raksha highly rewards you for learning to kill it faster. Due to the commons not being insane but atleast being alright, give it more time. Everything will feel like shit on day 1

[stiff yoke]

Appreciate the feedback. I mean I have BIS mage and Necro. I can somewhat pool skip but, my times are usually 2-2:30. I’m more just sad about the fact that the RDT just seems so low on drop rates when the commons can’t make up for anything before landing a rdt

[hollow canyon]

I only do aod, zamorak, and ag. 1 of those requires a full group for me to even go to and the other 2 got hit by this update. Just give it time. Atleast you will no longer be able to get 8 lacerations, 9 blast diffusions, 3 fleeting boots, 6 diverts, 1 grico, 0 chain, 0 spike logs like mine anymore

Those 17 drops now could be something actually useful

[safe birch]

While it's nice that 0-mechanics arch-glacor drops crystal key parts now that it no longer drops full keys, it's mildly annoying that the parts are both pretty common and unnoted, while the original full keys were noted. Depending on drop rng I can end up with a backpack full of key parts in under half an hour. Granted, that's only happened once so far, but it's been less than three hours of post-update play.

[celest glade]

I feel you... I got 46 pair of boots, 2 spike, 2 grico and 6 divert and finally that one gchain at 3,1k kc to be able to leave this disappointing boss forever 🤣

[hollow crater]

Is it intended the inert adrenaline crystals from dragonstone dragons aren't noted?

[thorny sigil]

the rares BUFF still happened. logs will be obtained in a better manner (hopefully).

what was nerfed were the commons loot

fyi zammy 500% is still 3-4m gp in commons

[still gyro]

lol

[thorny sigil]

the issue you have is rng and yes its sometimes rough. 1k isnt really that bad in most cases imo. I also boss consistently enough for it to not be a problem.

Calling to fire people over something like this feels out of place. 200kc is insanely lucky in most scenarios

(vorkath is prob the only one where id want 200kc logs to be normal personally)

[wanton spire]

nah they 100% should be fired. releasing untested updates, no fix to rng, killing pvm. They dont play the game the work for. these people just arent it.

[thorny sigil]

🤷‍♂️ goodluck my dude.

[wanton spire]

1 staff piece at kera with 1k kills is wild. while everyone else you take has multiple full staffs by 200-300 kc. these people arent the ones id personally like to see work for jagex

[rocky stream]

Its just rng it not that deep. Runescape always has been about rng getting lucky or unlucky. Sometimes you spoon,sometimes you dont at a piece of content. Changing to osrs will be the same thing its all about rng there aswell.

[fair cape]

It's embarrassing that they took this long to make changes and also obviously did not play test or at least code review the changes, but I can't blame them for not playing the game. You wouldn't play it either if you were working there.

I understand you're upset, but worst dev team of all time is hilariously ignorant.

[wanton spire]

releasing untested updates is ignorant.

[fair cape]

They are nothing compared to the teams that spend 10 years in development and never release a game.

[grand cargo]

The guy is ragebaiting hard

[stiff yoke]

Did I start a war?

I'm so glad they can't add reactions because it would be over with what I'd react to and with.

I do think some people here that I already notice do tend to d ride. I'm not trying to be toxic nor out of pocket, but it's feedback for a reason..

Now with that being said, reading through everything below what I sent makes me realize this isn't the best spot even if it's a channel dedicated to feedback. You're going to get the people who want to feel like they know it all or tries to always see the good in a future/present update when in plain sight, it's just not it pal.

I'm not saying anyone who argued with this topic is wrong, but I also don't agree with people trying to dodge around what we're actually trying to say. I get that everyone in here is all kinds of different levels whether it's end game, mid game or early game. It still doesn't change the fact of what we're complaining about.

[heavy bluff]

TBH these updates do sting a little in the short term, but it's very evident if you use logic to why it happened that this is going to be good for the long haul of rs3, so overall GG jagex, A rare W for sure

[stiff yoke]

I get the inflation. I get the direct GP out of the game. I get the values of rares can go up. I get all of it and that we have to give it time for the update. However, everything I stated above won't matter if you don't listen to the community and actually test play it because none of us will want to stick around and actually play.

I'm telling you right now. If it affects players this badly off the rip "day one", what makes you think it's actually going to help RS down the line? The math ain't mathing when someone tells me, "Oh you have to lose in order to win" and that's what this update feels like. We have to wait and let the update take affect in order to notice a difference. Uhm. That's not going to change luck based RNG. I'm not necessarily ranting about luck, but I'm just stating the fact that certain things don't change and those two are one of them.

[thorny sigil]

the nerfs werent that bad. To point it out, ryan has been going at jmods saying they dont or havent played the game. he did this 2 months ago on this very single topic and over being dry at kerapac then as well.

The message that can be accepted is "the nerfs hit harder than we like". This imo is a good way to go about it. Not jmods should be fired because they dont know what they are doing.

Also zammy is still roughly 4m an hour on 500s. its not as bad a nerf as some make it. I think the next large nerf was the AG nm and honestly... hm is where youd make the money anyway. - TLDR, the nerfs arent as bad as some are doomsdaying over.

for me, Id have liked if AG kept its piles for nm

but changed with what it dropped or the amount

[heavy bluff]

The nerfs are 100% not that bad, I would rather them lower the ceiling to fix the economy rather than raise the floor, that helps no one

people don't need to be walking around with 5b+ in their back pockets like it's 100m

[ionic kiln]

we need more upvotes on this post to flip the dynamic of it being seen as bad

[heavy bluff]

I mean there are always going to be the people that see their money fountain is getting targeted, but I genuinely hope Jagex realizes that these nerfs were needed even if it's 3 years too late, it's better to fix it 3 years later than to never fix it at all

[thorny sigil]

[heavy bluff]

And since I know someone is going to read this and come up with an argument on why it should never be addressed this late into it's life, why is this one wrong but MTX being addressed is a good thing, MTX has lived it's life and destroyed RS way longer than these drop rates but here we are, both things are getting fixed

[thorny sigil]

I think its ok for long term living subjects to be nerfed or removed if it actually helped / fixes painpoints in the game

does it suck? yeah it really does sometimes.

(im salty about the FSOA changes / nerfs just for Necro to come out very shortly after) do I think it was a good idea long term? :sigh: yeah

[heavy bluff]

It be like that sometimes

[wanton spire]

they shouldnt ask for feedback from the community if they dont want us to be honest with how we feel.

destroying end game loot while end game gear is through the roof makes 0 sense. bis range cost how much? if you were to brid melee/range for gm ca's, how much money would you have to invest in that? now given the drop values, how many hours would that take to afford the setup? the math doesnt add up, unless your rng is super spooned, you got shafted by this update. end game bosses need end game loot, i think when they look at the boss interaction in a few days they will realize just how bad they killed those bosses. zammy was an easy fix, nerf it 15-20% wait 30 days, see if that gave the desired effect. instead they just destroyed it. no one is saying nerfs werent needed, but killing end game pvm like this is crazy. you want people to get off necro but make affording the gear a years long grind.

[thorny sigil]

👎

10 kills zamorak

Common loot as of today

[heavy bluff]

They made rares more common, aka bis setups cost less money, it's not going to drop in 1 day after the change, you're going to feel the common loot nerf before you feel the bis setup price drop, no one got shafted this update besides the people who were banking on commons for their wealth, which yes lower the ceilings for the amount of GP flowing into the top pvmer pockets which is okay. They didn't destroy anything?

[wanton spire]

happy for you and your 70m today, less than 3% of the people with a zammy kill have done over a 500%, so congratz on being on of the few people who can do him above 500% 🙂

[thorny sigil]

Ryan... thats what endgame actually is

[wanton spire]

yes i understand they buffed the drop rates, that still doesnt help people who have bad rng. even at zammy a bow piece drop on average is 150+ kills. according to wiki that is.

[thorny sigil]

Not this excessive panic over a lack of aggressive nerf in loot. We know its not killed.

Alternatively. Go show us its doomed in numbers what have you bossed today? What did you get?

[wanton spire]

ill post it 1 sec

[heavy bluff]

Rng is going to be Rng, some dude will get a bow piece on his first kill, someone will get it on their 1000th kill, that doesn't justify the commons being as rewarding as they are, you can't base your economy on someone's luck

it's based on stats, and stats shown it needed to be nerfed, hence here we are

[thorny sigil]

What boss?

[wanton spire]

i did a few hm vorky kills

[thorny sigil]

Thats... good not killed in amount

Not like youve been saying

87m is solid

Already a 1% player on that alone

[heavy bluff]

87m in coins is very good

[thorny sigil]

Like the 26m an hour kerapac nm runs was bad

In commons

[thorny sigil]

It needs nerfing

[wanton spire]

this is 8 hm vorky kills

[thorny sigil]

I... maybe my definition of bad is very different to yours

[wanton spire]

30m hr at nm kera was a bit much id agree, and killing it in 42 seconds was to easy.

[heavy bluff]

So in 8 kills, you made over 55m, and you think that's not rewarding enough?

what?

[wanton spire]

3 spike drops was awfully lucky i must say 🙂

[thorny sigil]

Like im very comfortable gp wise and even I see that 87m from vork is solid

[wanton spire]

i think the others i was with make 5.5-8m off 8 kills

[thorny sigil]

So you made more than normal?

[heavy bluff]

I'll be honest, you gotta be trolling at this point

[thorny sigil]

Is the complaint actually saying "im making too much, the game is broken"?

[wanton spire]

they didnt kill vorkath

you asked to see my kills from today so i showed you..............

[thorny sigil]

Im confused. Who is they and how is your large amount of gp from today bad?

Its obv not a multi hundred mill drop but 50m can be seen as a good amount for someone in a single day

[wanton spire]

jagex didnt kill vorky* and i went to bosses they didnt nerf...

[heavy bluff]

So just so we are on the same page Ryan, what exactly is your problem with the screenshots you are showing

[wanton spire]

like i said, i went to a boss that wasnt nerfed into the ground

[heavy bluff]

right.. and?..

[thorny sigil]

You made 5m in commons. The rare drop (the spikes) arent commons

The point was to nerf commons

Even the news post says this

It wasnt to nerf to the ground but to adjust it to a lower amount

We have hard proof zamorak did get nerfed in commons (imo not enough)

500s give 3.8-4mish this was 7m before

[wanton spire]

zammy should have been nerfed at the enrages that were being farmed. theres 0 point to doing zammy, which is an end game boss when you cant expect end game loot.

ive seen 2.8-3.5m @ 500s

[thorny sigil]

Welcome to rng

[heavy bluff]

the point in doing zammy is for the bow of the last guardian, a 1.6b item

[wanton spire]

the point of doing zammy was to get decent loot, yes bow pieces are really nice but unless your doing high enrage, you literally have to farm him first.

[thorny sigil]

Want to know another endgame boss that doesnt give that much

Hm vorago

Solo gives like nothing

In fact, same with group

[wanton spire]

and why dont peole farm hm rago? obv cause it doesnt pay. point proven

[heavy bluff]

So are you upset that you have to farm a boss for pieces of a bis range weapon?

[wanton spire]

i didnt mind farming zammy, sure you get a ton of dex but the commons made it worth your time. now its basically ras, where you dont make much till you get a drop.

[thorny sigil]

No its clear the definition of what is end game doesnt cover your drop needs. Its still good money and covers cost to do the boss with better drop rates with rares

[wanton spire]

so were supposed to barely make money till we get a drop?

[heavy bluff]

The commons are still worth your time, they are commons, they add a little bit of gp onto your efforts, they shouldn't be the main reason you go farm a boss

[thorny sigil]

For rn. Yes

At the cost of the economy. Yes

Its a good thing

[heavy bluff]

literally yes, commons are in line (or should be in line) with skilling methods

[wanton spire]

ahh yes the economy where you can spend irl money on bonds to get gp, yes i forgot about about that.

[thorny sigil]

Bonds don't create inflation nor gp

Its a gold sink at most

[wanton spire]

end game bossing is a gold sink with death costs until you can do a boss well enough to make money... and looking at the combat stats jagex had on the live stream, looks like a lot of people are still learning.

[heavy bluff]

Keeping the economy in a bad state purely for the fact that someone can buy a bond and sell it for 130m is such a horrible take

Death cost for endgame pvm is like 1.5m at most

[thorny sigil]

Death costs havent been the gold sink for a long time.

[heavy bluff]

it's not that big of a money sink

[thorny sigil]

You are actually saying things that applied in like 2020. Did you just return?

[wanton spire]

i actually did just return a few months ago 🙂

[thorny sigil]

It makes sense now.

[heavy bluff]

well, I would suggest you go out and feel the game how it is now, it's 100% not like it was in 2020, especially with death cost

[wanton spire]

trying to build up to different gear then having the your source of income crippled isnt a good feel on my end.

[thorny sigil]

Look. Things have changed and the 257b daily gp that is added to the game came from commons from these bosses.

The push for nerfs was due to alchables etc

It was a rather mathematical post by jagex and showed a serious problem

[wanton spire]

"we want players to return" then "we have nerfed all good sources of pvm income" right after.

[heavy bluff]

players returning are not jumping into 2k+ enrage zammy?

[thorny sigil]

I promise you that you will still make your gp

[wanton spire]

listen, i read the posts, i seen the problem

ive done up to 4k zammy.... took a few weeks of practice but i got it. wasnt terribly hard but wasnt easy.

[heavy bluff]

If you seen your boat was sinking, would you A: Patch the holes before anymore damage can be done, or B: Sit back and invite more people onto your boat without fixing the leak

[thorny sigil]

I can also articulate how returning players arent 4k zammy in the solo scenario too.

It takes longer than that to climb

[hard sandal]

Returning players are going to want to see what has changed and catch up

[wanton spire]

im by no means saying the gp inflow wasnt the issue, im saying the nerfs feel a little to hard and werent well thought out.

[heavy bluff]

returning players I promise you are not immediately thinking to themselves "boy I can't wait to skip past every single piece of content and jump straight into endgame pvm"

that's just not logical

[hard sandal]

I still think they should have nerfed alchemy but that is me

[thorny sigil]

Alchables for sure

[wanton spire]

i think starting slow 15-20% nerfs then more if needed, not 50-60% nerfs and promise of more in the future.

[hard sandal]

Not alchables, alchemy itself

[heavy bluff]

The lower the ceiling the more the economy stables itself out

[thorny sigil]

Oh. I have mixed feelings with that. Irons do use it in a legitimate way

But iiwii

[wanton spire]

yea the irons really got it worse than most of us, sadly they get treated like the step child

[hard sandal]

Meh. It was the way they worded it that made me think nerfing alchemy itself would have been a better solution

[wanton spire]

they could have lowered alch values 60% and got the same effect but that wasnt something they would even listen to, or made the alchs into invention comps people could use. they had an idea and no one was going to change their minds.

[heavy bluff]

And this idea is working, so it was a good idea

[wanton spire]

just like people who are well over drop rate, they just promise a drop rate increase which means youll still be over drop rate but with a better chance. kinda trollish, could have added blm to other bosses then nerfed them so people who are super dry at least get a drop around drop rate. but again, they just say your unlucky.

[hard sandal]

i must be missing something cause i don't really see this idea working

[wanton spire]

the will hide boss the interactions and share the updated data from us to hide the fact this update is not working.

yes it worked as far as removing money but boss interactions will be way way down.

[heavy bluff]

They nerfed the commons to lower the amount of GP flow from them specifically, that idea is working, and they buffed the rare drops to lower the price of BIS items, and already that idea is proven to be working

they wanted to lower the ceiling, it got lowered

Again, it's better to lower the ceiling than it is to raise the floor

[thorny sigil]

A jmod also did say we gained 12% of the total ingame gold in the last 3 months

So like... we do genuinely have an issue

[hard sandal]

did BiS get cheaper on GE?

[thorny sigil]

Some are dropping yeah

[heavy bluff]

Fsoa dropped from 2b to 1.9 in 1 day so yes

[thorny sigil]

Maybe from panic we dont know quite yet

[wanton spire]

fsoa has been rising for weeks LOL

[hard sandal]

might have to keep an eye on that then

[heavy bluff]

and yet here we are, 1 day into the changes and it went down

[wanton spire]

fsoa was 1.2b to start the year, hit 1.9b

ezk is similiar story as fsoa

[heavy bluff]

the bis prices will only go lower as time goes on, that is 100% a good thing

[wanton spire]

the cheaper bis gets, the less people will see value in doing the boss....

[heavy bluff]

Nope, because it will forever be the bis item, people will farm that boss until it's not

[wanton spire]

if bottom of bolg hits 300m, is anyone going to farm 150 kills to get 300m? no

[heavy bluff]

if gwd1 still had a bis item, people would still be farming gwd1

[wanton spire]

divine bow string at 400m? 150 kills on average to get it, thats no good.

[thorny sigil]

Hey. I still farm gwd 1.

Dont attack me like that kekw

[heavy bluff]

My B king, slay

[thorny sigil]

Their drops are good money lmaooo

[hard sandal]

[heavy bluff]

the point is, BiS will go down in price, probably not by a huge margin like people are panicing about, but they will still be farmed until the new BiS item that replaces a thing (like fsoa) comes out

it happens all the time, it will be no different now

[wanton spire]

i personally think the nerfs were way to hard. i think the boss interactions last week vs this week will really tell the story. highly doubt they release the data, last thing they want is people to think they killed pvm right before a boss releases.

[heavy bluff]

Pvm is still the best money making method, so no it will not be killed regardless of these nerfs, but yes we will have to see how it plays out, I personally think all this random fear mongering for them to "revert" the nerfs is such a crazy idiocy take, people are just panicing that they no longer have access to easy Billions of GP that they had for 3 years

which doesn't help the game grow in the slightest

[wanton spire]

i mean if you want easy billions you go farm hm nak for 3-4 hours and get a shard........ its not like you cant get a big drop a few times a week.

they just went hard on the bosses people used for dps dummies or fun

[heavy bluff]

I could also go farm any of these bosses that got hit with changes for their rares as well and make billions, I just won't be making stupid money from commons in the process

no one farms nak for her commons

[wanton spire]

hm nak can be done in 2:30 with 8-10 runs per hours with a lot better drop rate of a 2b item than compared to zammy.

[heavy bluff]

What zammy enrage are you comparing that to,

out of curiosity

[wanton spire]

500% at 5 mins is around 10 kills per hours after you do the witches, so 150 kills on average for bow piece / 10 kc per hour is 15 hours to get 1 high value item. hm nak you can get multiple shards by 100 kc which takes a lot less time.

[heavy bluff]

So, 1 kill from a 500% zammy has a 17.5% chance to drop a bow piece, 1 kill from nak, has a 1.25% chance to drop a shard of gensis, so 8-10 runs, we will just call it 10, so Nak is a 12-ish% chance to drop a shard after a 1hr run, Zammy is a 58ish% chance for a completed bow

assuming 10 kills per hr on both, obviously that will never be the case because RNG is a thing

but purely just numbers, zammy is better

[wanton spire]

according to wiki, hm nak is better chance for a drop than zammy hr vs hr

[heavy bluff]

right, but the math says otherwise, it's all luck based

someone is going to kill nak 900 times and never see a shard

[wanton spire]

tbh ill be farming hm vorky and solak for gp. grim pages are steady money at under 5 min kills, basically a 500% zammy kill pre nerf

all they did was push the problem onto other bosses, which is fine. they just made it so many of us dont see value in the bosses they worked to create.

[ionic kiln]

you might want to consider rots that is a consistent 45m/hr with average of 15s kill times.

[wanton spire]

i actually do some rots, we 4 man and insta kill it then repeat for a hr or 2.

[ionic kiln]

i don't think that's a valid statement. vorago is still a highly recognised boss even when it's no longer in the top end of gp making compared to the newer ones

[wanton spire]

no one is going to swap to rago because of the nerfs, they will go camp hm nak and solak and vorkath

[ionic kiln]

your argument is on the "gp-value" then, and not about "not recognising the value in the bosses the mods have created"

[stiff yoke]

This is a feedback chat, but I wish there a section dedicated to just putting your honest feedback and it. It being shadowed over

[wanton spire]

i dont see value in a boss that doesnt put out as much gp per hour than an easier boss. example 1 hr of solak = more money per hour than 500% zammy.

[stiff yoke]

Well. I hope someone at Jagex at least reads my POV coming from a player who’s been playing for over 20 years. No hate to anyone and their opinions and I much respect them all.

[heavy bluff]

That's how you make the problem of power creep, which destroys games

that's why jagex is doing Lateral upgrades now

same method should be applied to bosses

[ionic kiln]

my first take on this would be,
would you want them to nerf solak then, to make it less profitable/hr than 500% zam?

[wanton spire]

well do you think a boss that only has 1 mode, which can be killed in 4 minutes or less should pay more per kill than an end game enrage boss which takes the same time or longer to kill with the same setup?

[ionic kiln]

might as well kill ripper demons too, more gp than solak

[heavy bluff]

Get em out of here

11m per hr plz jagex

[ionic kiln]

in that case, let's advocate for more nerfs to drop tables across the board.

not joking here, in case it looks like sarcasm.

[heavy bluff]

I do wonder how a wide spread nerf across the board would look

[wanton spire]

i said this exact same thing! if your going to nerf bosses, it has to be across all of them, not a few :)!

[heavy bluff]

Mole getting done dirty out here

leave my boy alone

[ionic kiln]

i think they mentioned in the blog post that they're focused on these few, because they're the biggest culprits based on the data they got

hence, i do not think they are implying they won't be nerfing the others, and vice versa

if there's more advocacy for more nerfs, maybe they'd start to do nerfs of drop tables more regularly?

[wanton spire]

i think all they did is push the problem onto other bosses

[heavy bluff]

It's really only the endgame bosses that caused this horrible economy shift

[wanton spire]

heres the thing, people will stop pvming or move to a different boss. we are at the "move to different boss" point.

nerf all bosses to hard, people will stop pvming and go to osrs

[heavy bluff]

People will not stop pvming I promise you

[ionic kiln]

this might be the first iteration. so, maybe that's how it would seem.

same concept applies to when they make combat changes in phases.

[wanton spire]

heres the thing also, if you kill pvm income, what stops people from going to osrs and moving money back to rs3?

[stiff yoke]

I will say you guys should try and keep the actual feedback relevant then going back and forth debating and giving each others opinions. I thought this was a chat for literal feedback and constructive criticism?

Or am I just SOL

I’m new here but, isn’t there a better chat for this above?

[heavy bluff]

Every feedback chat turns into this, it's the norm

[stiff yoke]

Ah

Well I’m new like I said. I was just asking because that kind of sucks

[ionic kiln]

and i think the premise of your argument is gp-value still.

which other bosses haven't been a big culprit of dropping mass loads of drops that these few have

maybe let's wait for 1-3 months for the new data to be churned out, then see if your speculation is true?

i think the mods did share their data and approach pretty well, that most players are agreeable to their solution, no?

[ionic kiln]

giving feedback is easy.
giving critical feedback is the challenge.

[wanton spire]

yea id love to see the dialy interactions on bosses last week vs this week. i think that data will show how the pvm community really feels.

[heavy bluff]

Them sharing the data and giving actual numbers rather than "trust us guys" was a massive W

[wanton spire]

i bet youll see a major jump to hm vorky and solak, and a major decline to zammy and hm kera

[heavy bluff]

And if HM vorky and Solak begin to cause problems, they will and should be addressed

but again, zammy and kera both drop bis items for 2 different combat styles, people are not going to just not farm them

[wanton spire]

i just dont see people camping the nerfed bosses after this week. i dont think anyones going to see real value for their time when they can go make more money at easier bosses.

[heavy bluff]

Time will tell

[wanton spire]

it will, but good discussion 🙂

[ionic kiln]

those are the immediate knee-jerk reactions

but we shouldn't base off data from knee-jerk reactions and data (they're only good if your focus is truly on knee-jerk updates and content that have no impact to long term health of the game)

hence, seeing the data across 3 months is a more accurate illustration of the true behaviour

[wanton spire]

its a knee jerk reaction to wait 3 months when a new boss is out in 3 weeks which be an outliar on the data points....

[ionic kiln]

that is true. then more than 3 months of data would be better - maybe a year again before we revisit this topic.

[heavy bluff]

I also doubt they would include the new boss in their data they might compare it sure, but I don't see them including it

[ionic kiln]

inb4 new boss drops a truckload of time runes

[wanton spire]

unless the new boss flops, they will be proud and rightfully so to brag about the interaction it gets. the new boss will hide the effects of the nerfs or show that a very small percentage of players are interacting with the nerfed bosses compared to pre nerf.

but people are always free to farm which ever boss they want, thats completely up the player. as far as people pvming for money, your going to see massive shift in where players go for the next 3 weeks.

[heavy bluff]

I mean right off the bat people are not going to be interacting with the changed bosses, people will be doing the race for worlds first, and then after that trying to farm the boss for the armor, to either have it or sell it for an absurd amount of gp, but that is no different from any update, MW robes were selling for like 1.5b just for the top on day 1

so you can't take that as an example and run with it

[wanton spire]

exactly, thats why the next 3 weeks will show how people feel, if the boss interaction are down 50% or more that paints a pretty bright picture, people dont see value in that boss. if another boss jump 50-100% in interactions, safe to say that boss is the new cash cow,

[heavy bluff]

People will farm the new boss until it is no longer a easy cash grab, how long that will take is up in the air

[wanton spire]

they didnt fix the problem, the moved it onto other bosses

[heavy bluff]

once the prices stabalize we will see where it lands

[wanton spire]

yea we have 3 weeks until then, so we have 3 weeks to see how people handle these nerfs.

[heavy bluff]

oh I miss understood you, my apologizes

I thought you were saying after the boss releases

[wanton spire]

all good no worries 🙂 but yea we just have a little window. the player base will adjust, and move on.

from 1 cash cow to the next, pvmers will find the money

[heavy bluff]

I fully expect amascut to be the "best" money maker, because Magic has been getting a lot of love this year, ontop of Jagex themselves hyping up this new armor set as the "Bis" "you're gonna want this if you're a mage" type of armor, so it's probably going to stay around 2b for the entire set

at least for awhile

unless they made the drop rates very forgiving like ode/roar

[wanton spire]

well considering the amount of necro players, i think the new necro weapon will be a major cash cow for a while. tbh im excited for all of it, had they relased the new boss and nerfs at the same time, id be doing the boss and not complaining on here xD

[heavy bluff]

Has it been confirmed Amascut is dropping the melee weapons/necro weapons/ and magic armor all in 1 loot pool

because that would be kinda insane

[wanton spire]

im not sure how it works yet 😦 hopefully some insight in the next week or 2. i really hope its not bolg or fsoa and drops in pieces.

[heavy bluff]

probably will? it seems like all the t95s are pieces

[robust holly]

Except necro for some reason

[heavy bluff]

oh true

[robust holly]

well and the wand/orb

[heavy bluff]

oh nvm hush my mouth then

[robust holly]

XD

[wanton spire]

im guessing it will drop as full item, other wise that loot table will be massive

[robust holly]

tbh i'm just hoping I can kill it

[wanton spire]

100% feel that x D

[robust holly]

Gunna be interesting to see what the common loot is too

[heavy bluff]

this would be the perfect time for them to give us an actual group finder... right jagex?? surely..

[wanton spire]

if i cant kill a cat lady, im going to rethink my pvm life xD

i think the posted on redit about a new grouping system

[robust holly]

They did some group finder work during gamejam iirc

[heavy bluff]

Me and my 4 alts about to get worlds 1st

[wanton spire]

early gzz on worlds first 🙂

i think they said it should be as hard as 4k zammy? i just hope its not a 10 minute fight lol

[heavy bluff]

is that the norm mode or the race

[wanton spire]

race mode

hopefully the common loot is good until people learn the boss so we can recoup the deaths were facing

[heavy bluff]

Lots of animate dead and necro campers in the future

[wanton spire]

i havent seen people this excited for a boss in a long time, even with it being quest locked. they have people excited, i will give them that. i suppose that helps soften the nerfs, even though were mad, we still love you jagex -.-

[wanton forge]

Speak for yourself, i hate jagex, but love rs

[still gyro]

You seem to be hyperfocused on the gp value of bosses when that isn't what the nerfs are about; they're about them injecting too many alchables into the game and being by and far the main source of certain resources while also providing a ton of them.

this has been reiterated countless times

And for the record players moving from a single boss, 500% zamorak, to a few bosses like hm nakatra, solak, and hm vork, that is literally a good thing and kind of the point

0 mechanic glacor was THE boss for certain resources, across the entire game; low enrage zamorak was by and far the most effective for gp value and certain resources for players at that skill level; these aren't good things

[wanton spire]

end game bosses need to have end game rewards, removing the rewards for defeating a boss an extremely small % of players have done, deserves an award. its not my fault they allowed the loot to be what it was, thats on them. saying the alchs are the problem while not providing a sink for those items and allowing mtx to ruin the flow of skilling supplies shows the issues isnt the players, its company. no one is going to buy the skilling items when they can save proteans and use dxp to gain levels. dropping 5m in alchs while providing no sink, or having a willingness to ever create a sink for those items doesnt help. instead of nerfing the bosses this hard, they could have made a real use for the alch, invention would have been a good start. they took the easy route instead of putting in the work to create anything that would burn the items already in the game.

as for pushing people to other bosses, they havent said that was the goal. people moving to other bosses, is clearly the logical thing to do for people trying to replace lost income.

[still gyro]

Someone said something in the same vein before, basically just keep raising the grand exchange tax so they can keep pumping cash drops and alchables; honestly that is such a stupid idea I don't even want to argue against it

As per your point about mtx and proteans, that is being addressed so...

it's a multi-pronged issue, with a multi-pronged solution which they are taking

sorry you're included in it I guess

[wanton spire]

the only way to burn these items is to provide a sink and they refuse to do so. they claim they will only add things to game that the game needs, like a duck quest. LOL

[still gyro]

In the case of 'just add more sinks' when it comes to skilling resources... That's kind of really hard and kind of baffling you would suggest that over reeling in resource generation. Skilling exp has a cap of 200m, several skills are already very fast and some of them are even very cheap or even profit to train, that isn't really realistic

Just because it's the "harder" route (arguably not worth) and they took the "easier" route, doesn't mean they're lazy or don't know what they're doing. It sounds more like you're just upset that it affects you.

[wanton spire]

invention tables could be updated pretty fast to provide sinks for these items.... people love to use invention and many of us would glady burn these items for any kind of perks or upgrades they could come up with.

[still gyro]

more perks for what?

even faster exp and more dps?

both of which are already problems?

also no, everyone fucking hates invention

most players do not even interact with invention

[wanton spire]

3 months to push an update and flopped on quality. smh

[robust holly]

Invention is pretty good too be fair, more people should try to get it unlocked.

[still gyro]

it's incredibly obtuse and sinks not only item but also your own time to be able to interface with it in any meaningful way; it's the most player-hostile skill in the game

[wanton spire]

i like invention, i like what it brings to the tables, its literally a must for end game.

youre trolling if you show up to the new boss with unperked gear.

just like i said earlier: how much does bis range cost? how much is bis melee/range? now add perks, add t99 prayers. how long of a grind at any boss that they nerfed would it take for a necro user to gain enough gp to make the leap? does this massive change to loot tables really help people get off necro and move deeper into the combat triangle? no this does the exact opposite, this update will necro lock majority of players for years to come. they were quick to nerf but still havent done anything to sink the items in the game. this update was very one sided and by the looks of reddit, it didnt land well. should some level of nerfing had happened? 100% yes. they could have started with 15-20% nerfs until mtx and proteans have been adjusted and waited 30 days or 1 dxp cycle to see how the game recovers. simply attacking pvm while claiming to be working on mtx is false start, again.

[rigid skiff]

Earlier this morning you kept asking for folks to be fired, now you're calling them lazy.
You're free to dislike the update but stay respectful.

[wanton spire]

they also refuse to do anything that involves having any correcting system or BLM. they would rather say "you are unlucky" than "yes, thats something we can look at work on"

[still gyro]

This update had nothing to do with necromancy. Reddit complains about everything. They have talked plenty about adding BLM.

In fact, jmod responses have pretty much never been "well you're just unlucky". You have claimed that many times for some reason.

[wanton spire]

its literally on another post of breezy tagging me and saying im just unlucky.......................

[still gyro]

Is this why you're ranting? That single response?

Well if you didn't know now you do, Jagex actually has taken the BLM suggestions seriously

[wanton spire]

let me guess, newspost incoming saying "false start, we're sorry"

you completely avoided the point i made that the time it takes to upgrade gear is now way longer and more diffuclt for the average user.

[still gyro]

I didn't address it because I can't

I'm not going to restart the game to find out or take you at face value

It's also like

not something I was talking about?

You brought up some random thing and expect me to address it

[wanton spire]

i welcome anyone to address anything i say, you arent going to find some "gotcha" comment to use on me.

[still gyro]

uhh, okay

[wanton spire]

ive agreed nerfs were needed, ive disagreed with how hard the nerfs were done without adding sinks.

[still gyro]

if you wanna talk about how no one has any reason to use the combat triangle over necromancy I recommend #design-chat 🙂

one of the most common topics

[wanton spire]

ive literally been pushing for people to advance into the combat triangle and how this update stalls that progress.

[still gyro]

As far as that goes I don't even think it's worth pushing until they fix the basic interaction of the other styles. They could be dirt cheap and easy to access for all I care, they will still be a mess to play with too much micromanagement for similar effectiveness

[wanton spire]

well i hope they make an update that address and fixes your problems with that.

[rain nova]

It really doesn't get stalled that much since even with these nerfs making money is still way to easy.

Like i've never used any of these nerfed bosses to make my money from pvm and can still just buy whatever i want without having to think about the prices

[wanton spire]

just curious which bosses do you do then?

as ive said previous, there are other bosses that will fill the gap but this update just pushes the problems to other bosses. until all sides are fixed, youre just pushing the problem to the other sides.

[rain nova]

If i need money i'll just go do some aod. since it's easy and good enough money

[wanton spire]

solo aod? because group aod is not money.

isnt the average aod loot 200-400k?

[rain nova]

I forgot the only loot you think exists is commons

[wanton spire]

i think im around 400 kc there and average loot per kill with rares comes out to 2-3m max

heres the thing about common loot, some players dont have the golden spoon of jagex to feed their accounts rare drops. so you would rather blame people for farming consistent money rather than risking going a few 100 kills over drop rate to get a drop that would equal out to common loot value over the kills it took to get the drop?

example fsoa piece: 1/450 with 3 pile chance. some people have 2 full staffs by 300 kc, while others have 1 staff piece at 700. averaged out over 700 kc, that 1 rare doesnt change my total value per kill over 700 kills much, but your spooned accounts, 6 pieces over 300 kc, would greatly change your value per kill. im sorry if taking the route that leads to more money is a bad idea.

same could be said about people 400 kc dry on a shard at hm nak, while others have 5+ at the same kc. if the rares dont drop for you, you find other ways to achieve your goals.

[rain nova]

Yes. drystreaks like that are a problem that also need to be fixed. But they can't fix every single problem in the game in 1 massive update

Unless you just don't want to see an update for the next couple years to give them time to fix everything

Which would probably just mean the end of runescape

[still gyro]

I think it's just the mentality of "if you push something that hurts me you better fix every problem I have at the same time"

[wanton spire]

honestly, they could just drop a news posts saying in 2026 they will look into, and by the end of 2027 they will present the community the idea theyve came up with and i bet people would be pretty happy.

[rain nova]

That's exactly how it is / would be

Elitist pvmers just thinking about their gp pouch instead of game health

[wanton spire]

i think blaming people for wanting a fair and balanced gameplay is a bit harsh.

[rain nova]

Theres a difference between wanting "fair and balanced gameplay" and wanting bosses to dump 10million gp worth of commons per kill

[wanton spire]

lego have you ever done high enrage of any boss?

[rain nova]

Have never seen a good reason to

[wanton spire]

isnt the point of doing high enrage to have a better reward?

[rain nova]

Pretty sure high enrage is still more rewarding then low enrages

You wouldn't be the only person complaining here if that wasn't the case

[wanton spire]

go look at this same post on reddit

im not the only one voicing this

[rain nova]

Reddit is the last place on earth where i'll look for stuff

[wanton spire]

solak shouldnt be paying more than a 1k zammy kill.

but after these nerfs, 1 hr of solak = more money than 1 hour zammy

solak doesnt even have a hard mode

in skilling terms, should making normal magic potions be more profitable than making super magic potions? probably not.

[rain nova]

Maybe you're right. But that doesn't mean zammy drops weren't ridiculous

It just means grim pages are stupidly overpriced

[wide pivot]

solak is only better because of grim pages, right?

[wanton spire]

i agreed the zammy loot was fat. low enrage should not be 5-7m per kill at 200% thats just insane to me.

[wanton spire]

yes and new boss coming out means they will only go up 😄

[wide pivot]

kinda speaks to the value of a repeatable bis exclusive consumable like that more than the common drops

[wanton spire]

yea commons at solak arent even worth looking at, but no one is there for the commons.

5m in 4 mins with 10-12 kills per hour is a nice lil pay day + a rare drop every once in a while

[wide pivot]

and that's fine, its a different dynamic to how people are approaching the drops than other bosses

like i wouldn't say buff solak commons just because they're negligible in value compared to the pages, because its a good thing to have that undercurrent of items coming into the game while people are grinding pages

[wanton spire]

they could remove his comon loot and no one would notice lol

tbh they can keep the seeds xD

[stiff yoke]

Daayyuuummmmm o started a whole war lol

[rain nova]

tldr: pvmers need to just calm their nips and wait for prices to balance out again before complaining about getting less gp/h

[fair cape]

That argument really fails to capture this update. Many Some common ingredients were made orders of magnitude harder to acquire.

[proper grove]

Tried Arch Glacor today on my ironman, I wouldn't be surprised if another wave of people quit because of this. Are they intentionally trying to kill the game now?

[fair cape]

The only way that could make any amount of sense at all would be if the owner had a competing game they thought would capture the same players but make them more money.
That's obviously not the case.

[proper grove]

Blizzard: Nerfs Diablo
Public: Extremeley bad response.
Result: Many uninstalls, playerbase never recovered to what it used to be.

Runescape: What if...we did something even more extreme and nerfed the drops?

Diablo backpedaled, still never really recovered from that.

[fair cape]

Using one of the most notoriously bad companies as a comparison doesn't really help you here. Runescape has a player ran economy that can easily be disrupted by boss drop tables. Kerapac was absolutely dropping way too much stuff, and AG HM was barely a challenge and printing money.
They could have made AG HM scale more with enrage which would limit the amount of people able to do a long KS, but they don't think it's okay to change boss mechanics after this long? Idk.

[heavy bluff]

Reddit is the worse place to look for an actual sane opinion. There is a reason people avoid reddit like a plague. There is nothing useful that comes out of there besides once in a blue moon

[heavy bluff]

Also on this front, your complaints do not make it seem like you want a fair and balanced game, you want the loot to stay the same when stats have proven it's not fair and balanced and has pushed the economy into the worst state it has ever been in, If you stop thinking about YOUR personal gains, and use logic to why it's happening and what it's affecting, it very quickly becomes evident that this is the correct way to fix this issue

[rocky stream]

💯

[wanton spire]

the worst thing is to close your eyes and act like those people dont exist or play the game. hiding on discord becuase you cant handle or dont side with them doesnt make your side any more right or wrong.

[wanton spire]

ive literally said nerfs were needed but not to this extreme. my personal gains are my why i play the game, your personal gains are you why play the game. im not playing the sims, im playing runescape.

[ember galleon]

hey friends, I've tried searching in this thread, but haven't found the answer yet. in the update it said bow chance increases above 500%. Does this include 500%? Should I do 501% to be safe?

curious if there was any clarification by staff. Thank you

[wanton spire]

500% is the starting point for increased chance.

[heavy bluff]

Everyone plays the game for their own reasons sure. At some point someone is going to have to take the fall to accomodate for the games health. We've been abusing this money making method for 3 years. 3 whole years. Jagex is finally waking up and dealing with it although it is a bit late but it's still being dealt with, we have to just bite the bullet and take it on the chin. The bosses are still good money per hour, just not insanely busted like they have been.

That's just the way it is, and it will be that way moving forward

[wanton spire]

minus the scrolls, that is 1 hour of kerapac loot. 10m/hr is not good money.

[heavy bluff]

10m in commons when you're hunting rares is good money, no one says "I'm gonna go farm kera I hope I don't get a staff piece"

[wanton spire]

the person who sent me that screenshot is 700 kc no staff piece, and the other rares are basically useless. 400k gloves, 3m jas book, 7-8m gcoc. hard see value when you get nm drops as rares on the hm setting.

thats around 70 hours of grinding btw

[heavy bluff]

My guy, literally the whole point of bossing is to farm rares, that's the whole point, if you want to get rich off commons, guess what they have a skill called slayer which is the best common money making method out there now, it used to be bossing, now it is slayer where it should be

People get unlucky, that's how it is

people get lucky, that's also how it is

[wanton spire]

right fair and balanced game play, 700 kc is unlucky but we have fair and balanced game play. its a joke

so which is it? fair and balanced or unlucky?

nerfing bosses while not addressing the game play being unfair and unbalanced was not the best move.

[heavy bluff]

I have 12k abyssal beast kills, I have yet to obtain a Jaws of the abyss, something that is a 1/900 drop chance on a slayer task, should abyssal beast drop it more commonly? or am I unlucky

do you see me crying about the fact that I don't have it? no, it's all RNG

that's literally bossing

[wanton spire]

you are literally talking about a drop that isnt worth much. you want people to farm bosses that are a 1/150 drop rate and seeing people being commonly be 5x the drop rate.

abby beast are an afk monster, they arent even a boss. smh

i didnt know poeple killed abbys for the rares

[heavy bluff]

It's very clear to me I can't make you see reason, if your issue is that you're not spooned enough that is a seperate topic from this feedback about the game health changes, I wish you the best man I really do, but it's pointless to keep this convo going, it's diluting the main point

[robust holly]

Personally for me, anything that is 5m+ an hour is good.

[wanton spire]

i mean for 5m/hr id just farm blue jellys. if you wanted to buy range setup while making 5m/hr it would take 1400 hours of game play lol

and that assuming you dont die or use any resources while getting the kills

[thorny sigil]

5m in commons wont be the method youd use to get the gp for endgame gear. commons were never the regular way either

its the rares as a whole and the hard to get high cost is usually obtained in groups. AOD is a money printer for that reason.

[robust holly]

I mix in other things to make money as well. Most, if not all, of my money making is AFK or low input.

[thorny sigil]

^ this is the other and thats a LOOONG term scenario

[wanton spire]

yea i have passive income so i dont have to actually play the game to make money, but making decent money bossing was always the end game goal.

as far aod being a money maker, i think the average per kill with rares is 2-3m. the chests are worth much, unless you getting a dex, your gp per kill isnt much. i do aod.

[robust holly]

Out of curiosity, what is your AOD kc?

[thorny sigil]

you go to aod for the rares not the for the small loot

[wanton spire]

ill post kc and log 1 sec 🙂

[thorny sigil]

ok, somewhat new to aod

[wanton spire]

im not saying dont do aod, im just saying its no fun getting the chests xD i hope you have good rng there 🙂

[thorny sigil]

this is in consideration of time it takes to get a rare

and how it calcs the gp into a per hour basis

[pine lotus]

So, still extremely good.

[thorny sigil]

due to rares

not commons

[pine lotus]

Irrelevant.

Not every kill has to make you bank.

[wanton spire]

commons are not good at aod lol aod is literally rare hunting for a dex. the other drops arent worth much

[thorny sigil]

considering the point is that gp for endgame isnt dead and you can and will find ways to get to (endgame)

[heavy bluff]

this

[pine lotus]

And when the inflated stock finally drops, common prices will actually go back up

[thorny sigil]

we are convincing ryan that its not the dooms day nerf

thats explicitly whats going on

[wanton spire]

only thing i care about is gp per hour. rares arent 100% going to drop for you. so farming bosses that are consistent money is more effective in the long run.

[pine lotus]

That wont happen quickly, but it will

Rares are going to drop eventually.

[thorny sigil]

yep, either way, still lots of ways to obtain unreasonable amounts of gp rather quickly

even with these nerfs

[pine lotus]

If you're only going to kill a boss a few times, you arnt really the target audience the content should ve balanced around

[thorny sigil]

^

[wanton spire]

ive killed most bosses a few 100 to a few 1000 times lol. ive seen how rng plays out.

[pine lotus]

Sure, then why are commons so important to you?

If they are

[wanton spire]

because ive seen rng be unlucky so i found ways to avoid rng and still make decent hourly money

[pine lotus]

The thing is, if every kill is rewarding, that takes away from the great rewards.

[robust holly]

Camping certain slayer creatures is really good gp/h in just normal loots

[pine lotus]

The only real argument for good commons is an ironman one, and id argue thats a bad one.

[thorny sigil]

the only way to fix dry bosses is to keep doing that boss. you will make the gp. thats not in question at all

[pine lotus]

Slayer needs a hit too for sure.

[thorny sigil]

effort is required

[pine lotus]

Well, if you arnt an iron, just do any boss.

Eventually you get a drop

Doesnt really matter which

[wanton spire]

ok so people who have 2 full staffs by 300 kc, have a lot higher gp per kill than a person with 1 staff piece at 700 kc. so why wouldnt the person with bad rng just find a good comon loot boss and farm that?

[pine lotus]

Luck is part of the game.

Ive gone over 10x with no loot

[thorny sigil]

irrelevant and honestly bringing this up is silly. RNG is and will continue to exist even with your frustration with it. fyi fsoa parts were buffed

[wanton spire]

if rng isnt on your side, you need to find other ways. which people did

[pine lotus]

It happens.

If you need other ways, go farm whirlygigs

[thorny sigil]

go do some kerapac and get the staff pieces

[wanton spire]

ive done plenty of kerapac, id rather do solak.

even with a staff piece at 700 kc, my gp per kill at solak comes out to be a lot higher than my gp per kill at kera, ive found other ways.

[pine lotus]

Id rather the game not be shitting out every single resource like crazy, so much that no method other than pvm can be profitable.

Pvm needs to be most profitable.

But not at the expense of everything else.

Also, werent the changes mostly to bottom end pvm?

[wanton spire]

yea i agree with you, pvm needs to have its place and so does skilling.

nah they hit zammy pretty hard at all enrages.

[pine lotus]

Yeah, fair.

But really, dont expect that prices now are representative.

[wanton spire]

even the 10% buff on bolg isnt much, on average bolg was 1/150 drop rate. so 1/135 now if your running 500s

[pine lotus]

They'll go back up. Commons, i mean.

Not the drop amounts, but prices.

It'll take maybe.. 1 double xp or something and we'll have an indication of what true commons profit will be.

[thorny sigil]

Youll also net 400m from just doing that

In commons

With the nerfed items

[pine lotus]

Yeah, im not really sure what all the profit is needed for at this point.

[robust holly]

When it comes to the RNG aspect of bossing, I'll switch up the bosses I do each day.

[pine lotus]

Absolutely

[wanton spire]

you should net around that yea

[pine lotus]

Like, at 150 an hour, assuming you get the drops below rate (just do it more and it will even out), you'll have everything you'll ever need pretty quick

How much is BiS these days?

[main pivot]

A small idea: have the sacks from Wilderness Flash Events be affected by luck enhancers. It would also be nice to have a small chance of getting an RDT drop from the sacks as a compensation for the nerf. For example, there could be a 1/10 chance of an RDT drop from regular sacks, and 1/5 chance for special sacks.

[wanton spire]

150 kills to get a bow piece, but the 150 kills could be 15+ hours depending on team or solos. its still a decent grind. the 150 is the average from wiki, some will be more, and some will be less. but yea doing a boss that 3% of players have ever done at the enrage, many would argue should be rewarding since its an end game boss

[pine lotus]

Meh, but its easy

[wanton spire]

more people have a zuk cape than have cleared a 500% zammy run lol

[pine lotus]

Most endgame bosses in rs3 are dssigned to allow people in pretty quick

And meant to be streaked at high% for decent rates

Sure, but that can be explaied by poor design and low enrage being too rewarding.

If you dont feel the need to go harder, people wont.

[wanton spire]

low enrage was to rewarding, thats a fact

4 min kills with 5m+ loot and very easy kills, was not good for the game.

[pine lotus]

But yeah, look, a hc main saying that less rewards for easy content.

Keep it hard

Yeah, i cant say the current balance is perfect.

But id hope theres a reassessment done when prices level out

But only then.

[wanton spire]

we likely wont hear anything about the nerfs, in 3 weeks the new boss will be out and that will be most end game pvmers focus.

[pine lotus]

Maybe this is too low. But you can't really say it is or not short term.

Potentially.

Jagex also has a bad track record of doing something for game health, then doing the opposite straight after in mtx.

The nerfs dont really need people interacting with the content though

[wanton spire]

jagex is famous for the "it was a false start, were sorry" line

[pine lotus]

What matters is the pricing of commons, which will normalise only after the inflated stocks wear down

So, an 80% nerf might only mean a 70% nerf.

[wanton spire]

i think a small nerf with a better item sink would have gave the results they wanted without people feeling like the killed certian bosses.

[pine lotus]

For example.

[thorny sigil]

for necro its 1.6b without perks etc

[pine lotus]

Yeah, thats fuck all

And more than enough for all content

[wanton spire]

also in part to the ras bots -.-

[pine lotus]

Necro is kind of easy to get though.

[neon plaza]

what more is there to say? this is the 3rd thread about the game health update

[wanton spire]

they can say if it had the effective they wanted and how well it worked.

[thorny sigil]

Ok... its still that and with the current state. Bis is easy as all can be to get to.

[wanton spire]

even the basic necro gear is pretty solid.

[pine lotus]

I actually came back to the game from osrs, in part due the update. Pvm spewing out all the supplies i ever needed was part of what made the game boring for me

[thorny sigil]

Its day 2... they cant say how its doing yet

[pine lotus]

Yeah, i dont think we can really be sure till after dxp

[neon plaza]

it will take time before they can see how the data trends. to expect a response immediately about it is a bit unreasonable

[pine lotus]

It might normalise before then

But its hard to really be sure

Rates will almost certainly need tweaking

Whether they do that or not though..

[wanton spire]

to not show a result and hide behind a new boss release isnt going to show an accurate trend. id think before the new boss comes out they should have enough data to show the results.

[pine lotus]

I dont think its really to hide it.

[neon plaza]

the game health was delayed twice due to feedback

[pine lotus]

Its just, when else are you going to do something you know there will be pushback on?

Even though its best for the game

[icy robin]

They've received feedback about the nerf numbers, now we'll need to wait to see how things change as a result of the nerfs

[pine lotus]

Yeah, i just hope its not too hasty.

Feedback, gather data to support it, then act

[wanton spire]

yea i think your going to see other bosses now become "the problem" as people switch to other bosses to farm loot.

[pine lotus]

Oh, absolutely.

[thorny sigil]

its also a bit far to say they are hiding behind a boss release. we knew it was going to be out this date for at least a month

[wanton spire]

i know for my pvm group, it pushed us off zammy to hm vorkath and solak.

[pine lotus]

I imagine we'll get more pvm nerfs

[thorny sigil]

like. lets stop blaming and making irrational statements without genuine proof

[pine lotus]

With a few buffs following up feedback on these

[wanton spire]

i mean nerfs, mtx update and new boss all in a 4 week span is a lot at once 🙂

[pine lotus]

Will people then move to whatever else is bis profit?

Ofc.

[thorny sigil]

it would be if it was said a week ago

[pine lotus]

Thats why i play iron

[thorny sigil]

we knew about hte nerfs months ago

it was pushed back

twice

boss we knew its tentative date a while ago too (we ended up being right)

like to say they are doing things to muddy the water to irritate ryan is... um

better to just show proof of changes in gp per hour for the effected bosses. say what you think should be adjusted and move on

[wanton spire]

the time for the nerfs to line up with a new boss, im not saying they did that on purpose, but hard to feel it wasnt done on purpose.

[neon plaza]

everything is a conspiracy whenever it comes to nerfs

apparently

[wanton spire]

if thats how you feel about it then thats okay too 🙂

[neon plaza]

despite things being well communicated

and multiple blog posts

[thorny sigil]

what im actually getting at is to actually have genuine feedback now. concerns are great to voice. now lets get proof of burden

we know zamorak is about 3m aver at 500%

im getting nm kera kph estimate rn

and the loot in commons from it

so instead of just complaining (strong way to say it) lets be productive and just find the info and talk aboujt it

[icy robin]

We also know that the Jmods are interested in continuing to do these game health updates regularly and adjust more numbers where needed

[wanton spire]

i mean ive seen the changes personally and just adjusted my pvm to keep the gp per kill in reasonable state

[thorny sigil]

so kera nm is up to 21m an hour in commons

after nerf

this is (afk) low effort

[wanton spire]

so nm is now more gp per hr than hm?

[thorny sigil]

if you are slow, yes

[robust holly]

That's what it was before the update 😭

[wanton spire]

30m pre nerf

steady 30m/hr pre nerf lol

[thorny sigil]

it was about 26m with the rng pushing low point 20m

now the high point per hour is 21m

[rigid skiff]

I also asked about it specifically, they didn't even have the drop table back then

[thorny sigil]

we see about a 5m drop

[wanton spire]

i actually remember seeing this, that a really good question tbh.

[thorny sigil]

we can now determine kerapac isnt nerfed into the ground

nor zammy

anyone know AG yet?

[robust holly]

Someone posted their HM loot from a 47 streak in another channel

[thorny sigil]

ill take anecdotal from anyone having done it recently

ayo. can you find it mayhaps?

[wanton spire]

ive seen 10m/hr hm kera down from 35m average

[rigid skiff]

this was posted in Taskman server today

[thorny sigil]

tbh, n2b

its definitely lower margins for gp gain

(that nilas is insane)

[wanton spire]

ill do an ag streak later and post the results

[thorny sigil]

someone did a second ks and its about an hour for 45 ks

[shy idol]

they nerfed arch-glacor to the ground. It was already not the best boss for gp. Now it is a joke.

[thorny sigil]

and it was 40m from it

so AG is still printing gp lmaooo

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/303838693414797314/1394758755115204700/image.png?ex=6877f9d0&is=6876a850&hm=ec194cd6aa46f3bd39e8651b14933a36ef1a3d2d420fc4edfae4b2570ebc7258&

rng dependent ig

[wanton spire]

tbh i never seen crazy loot from ag in hm, i always thought it was pretty bad. i just did it for the titles.

[thorny sigil]

it gets pretty insane on ks and higher enr

at least pre nerf

[rigid skiff]

Genuine question: is there a balancing reason AG doesn't drop charms, or is it a mechanical reason?

HM AG*

[thorny sigil]

id ping a jmod for that one

:kekw:

[rigid skiff]

in comparison, does Telos drop charms?

[wanton spire]

i think its because its 1 drop per kill and people would go insane in they got a charm drop.

[shy idol]

why would ag need to drop charms?

[rigid skiff]

aaah, that's a good point

[wanton spire]

i wouldnt be upset if 100 ks got me a nice stack of blue charms

[rigid skiff]

oh nah, not saying he should, just curious is all ^^

[robust holly]

I'd assume HM ag doesn't drop charms cause all the loot is pre-determined. iirc it doesn't gives troves either does it?

[wanton spire]

it does not give troves on hm

or at least, ive never gotten any

[thorny sigil]

it does give troves on hm yeah

I think less but it does

[shy idol]

I don't think I have seen any troves on hm

[thorny sigil]

maybe im wrong. i thought I remembered seeing it on hms

[lusty saffron]

Has anyone gotten a 2 manuscript drop from kerapac? I've gotten 15 drops so far since the update all single, and I'm unsure if I'm just unlucky, it's uncommon to drop 2, or what.

For a while I was assuming I just low rolled often, but as it climbed into double digits I got suspicious and thought i might as well ask.

[storm bramble]

So we need 95 slayer now to get tier 87 weapon because Annihilation, Decimation and Obliteration are not in the flash event drop anymore?

[ionic kiln]

i would actually argue that all drops which such low drop rates, should have some BLM threshold added. over 12 times the drop rate is beyond unlucky, and shouldn't happen at all... even if it was from a slayer mob

[inland cliff]

I fail to see how 44m in 56 kills is "printing gp". Like wat

That's so bad for a hard mode boss

[thorny sigil]

good story

[inland cliff]

Great response

[wanton spire]

well you can watch the rs guy go do 2k zammy with one of the best zammers in the world on his live stream and only get 7m kills at 9 minutes a kill, while solak, who does not have hm or enrage is more money per hour lol. the whole nerf doesnt reward end game bossing anymore. then they will say rares make up for the common gp loss, which is a lie because if you are 2-5x over drop rate, you arent going to get extra rare drops to fill the gap of the expected rare drops which they claim will make up for the loss. nerfing without having a proper blm system was a huge over sight and doesnt show actually "balance, fairness and enjoyable content" as they preached in the patch notes. but the people on here would rather say "your unlucky" or go do aod. its kind of a joke at this point, they showed us they dont have any idea how to address people being 5x the drop rates while preaching "These updates are about investing in the future of RuneScape, ensuring that the game remains fun, fair, and engaging for all types of players.". 🙂

[thorny sigil]

its just not reasonable to provide a debate over AG which is 20m+ an hour. saying low enr at that gp hour being bad tells me the convo isnt serious.

if you are serious, ill say it right now. 20m hour isnt bad

[wanton spire]

its not reasonable to ignore the fact being 5x over drop rates will not replace to common loot nerfs.

[thorny sigil]

idk what you are referencing. thats not related to low enr glacor being 20m hour commons.

[wanton spire]

you said something isnt reasonable so i pointed out something else that isnt reasonable.

[thorny sigil]

clearly trolling?

[wanton spire]

calling 20m/hr good money is wild

[thorny sigil]

did I?

I said its not bad

id argue for commons its insanely good

for rares its garbo

[wanton spire]

20m hour on enrage bosses while streaking is a slap in the face tbh

[thorny sigil]

We already know your stance that you must get 200m hour in commons from little to no effort with things because you might possibly go dry on something like kerapac

so like, im going to take your statements with a grain of salt

[wanton spire]

i actually think 50m/hr end game bossing is pretty decent money. id consider 30m to be rough

[thorny sigil]

anyway, my comment wasnt originally for you but you sure went to it like a fly

it was for roses

and with that, good day

[ionic kiln]

@wanton spire i think you're too anchored on the common loot value averaged you've received per hour thus far, without considering the value of the rare drops that will boost that average value

you keep quoting solak, without also understanding that solak is only that high because of grim pages that are provided reliably at every kill (or almost?), thus, nets you that consistently high gp/hr

whereas zamorak, whose value (should not) comes not from the reliable drops of pages, but from its rare drop, which doesn't come at every single kill, becomes more of a "roll the dice and hope you get the rare" boss

both are completely different types of "value/hr" boss that you're comparing

if you truly want to compare, you should be comparing them in their respective types of: "reliable value/hr" bosses and the "non-reliable value/hr" bosses, instead of continuing to compare apples and oranges, and asking why one is significantly better than the other

[ionic kiln]

you are right however, on the BLM portion, which i think the devs are beginning to consider - even for amascut - and i personally think and have advocated for it to be applied across all RNG drops from bosses (and maybe even slayer mobs)

the bosses impacted from the list so far are targeted to reduce the injection of particular resources and items - for example, AG was giving like 50% of all uncut dragonstones entering the game if i recall correctly

and i think it's been said before many times (maybe a dev can share insights on this too?) that this is not the end of their health update. there might be more. and it is best that we look at the data again on how this change has made the game heath economy better - which is one of the primary goals

finally, the irony is that AOD is even more RNG based, and i don't know how players can advise you to go AOD for gp when AOD gp/hr from commons is worse than zam if you're stuck at pre-500 enrage zam skill level

[wanton spire]

i understand your post. i think you wrote it well btw. at the end of the day, most of us are trying to get the most out of our time. if rng isnt working for you, you find a different way to produce.

yea as far as people saying aod, they dont realize i have almost 400 kc at 2:20 kill times. i have 100s to 1000s of boss kills at a lot of these bosses, its not like im some random noob with 10 kills crying about rng. ive seen it, ive dealt with it and ive adjusted my game play for it.

hopefuly the future updates are better and bring real balance to the rng side. but until them, ill just farm solly because those pages with new magic gear coming out, will be nice value item 😄

[ionic kiln]

i can understand the pain points of these too.

hence, i fully support BLM application to all boss drops to reduce that pain point.

in terms of "true" normal distribution via RNG, the bottom end of it should never exist.

i've had friends who had to dump their first main account, create a second one, just to get that RNG luck.... it's incredulous how bad RNG can really get that players are "forced" into creating a "luckier" account to compensate for that unluckiness of their first account

[wanton spire]

yea i carried a few friends for hm kera and they all logged by 200 kc while i never got a staff piece till 700 lol, 3 people logged off 1 loot pile while i got 2 loot piles and couldnt get 1 item xD

but like they say "These updates are about investing in the future of RuneScape, ensuring that the game remains fun, fair, and engaging for all types of players."

[pine lotus]

Imagine thinking you need to create a new account for new luck

People scamming themselves

Drops dont work like that. You account doesnt have some designated luck value, or set kc for drops.

[ionic kiln]

while your account does not have that designated luck value, statistics still exists regardless, and there are people who fall on the extreme ends of the distribution from probability distribution

therefore, we have cases of "extremely lucky" players, and "extremely unlucky" players. just because you do not experience it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

[visual aspen]

Just gotta start with better luck IVs.

[pine lotus]

Sure, but its just as likely they'd continue and get those same drops

Its not a tied value to your accountm

Also, the human memory is biased towarda remembering bad luck more than good luck

[ionic kiln]

that is true if the person's claim isn't provided with evidence

in this context and cases, there have been evidences provided to support this phenomena

[pine lotus]

You can take evidence and ignore where thu were lucky.

Or enough time wasnt given to be lucky.

But, if you do something 1k times, then another 100 on a new account and get it, thats still 1 over 1100.

Its not a new 100. You hadnt seej the drop, and its part of the samw pool.

Statistics say youre likely to see one, even if the rng is the same

New account or no.

Its just bias

[ionic kiln]

i have no idea why you'd "combine" luck, when the fact of the matter is that it is individual experiences and mutually independent of each other

[pine lotus]

its part of the same pool that player has observed

just like we can combine statistics over multiple accounts to find the true rates.

[ionic kiln]

the "luck" of account A is separate from B, even though they may be played by the same person

if you're so focused on individual experiences, let's take the concept further

if you are to create 1,000,000 bot accounts to slay vindicta, you will see normal distribution of drops play out

[pine lotus]

there is no 'luck' of account a and b though

you think the devs have tied a luck statistic to your account?

thats malicious and probably illegal

[ionic kiln]

i think the concept is flying by you.

[pine lotus]

luck is determined when the drop is made.

howso?

if there isnt a coded thing tied to the account determining luck, you're wrong.

because the account doesnt have that functionality, and making a new one doesnt change anything

[ionic kiln]

i never claimed it, nor implied this in any form or way.

[pine lotus]

sure, then how are you applying that making a new account changes the luck?

you're just adding more kc to the same pool observed.

[ionic kiln]

i think it best if you can refer to this, and why BLM was added to zamorak
https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Random_Distribution

[pine lotus]

im not sure how that is at all relevant

[ionic kiln]

that means you don't fundamentally understand how randomness work, or in this case, why i'm using the term "luck"

or even why BLM exists

[pine lotus]

please enlighten me in how luck happens then, because im fairly sure you're misunderstanding it, or me

obviously bad luck mitigation is a good thing in some cases.

completely seperate conversation

[ionic kiln]

and based on your understanding, why is it a good thing? what's the objective of it?

[pine lotus]

the objective is to lessen dry streaks, but also at the same time lessen lucky streaks.

it normalises rate.

and how does this apply to making a new account for a new 'luck' seed?

[ionic kiln]

the enlighten can be best found in the link i provided which elaborates in an elementary level of how it works, and why it is bad, as well as the solution for it (which in rs3 context is BLM)

[pine lotus]

i didnt ask for a lecture on how luck works, i know how rng works generally (though what its tied to can be different from developer to developer). but i fail to see how this applies to someone thinking that a new account changes anything

[ionic kiln]

there you go. it's meant to remove the extremities of the normal distribution where one can get super unlucky, right?

if the drop rate is 1/100, and you don't even get a drop after 1/1,000,000 that means you are considered "unlucky", agreed?

[pine lotus]

as i said, i feel like you're misinterpreting something, or me

again, how is this relevant

like, this feels like you're strawmanning hard.

i never said bad or good luck streaks dont happen.

and this isnt a conversation about whether that should be changed.

[ionic kiln]

i think this article best explains how "individual account lucks" work for you, if that even makes sense.
i'd best suggest to not anchor on the idea of "individual account luck", since it is clear there's no such **tangible **thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/apg2i1/how_does_the_pseudo_random_distribution_prd_work/

[pine lotus]

again, you fail to say how this is relevant to the discussion.

im aware of the topic

[ionic kiln]

i have no reason to pursue this "individual account luck" discussion, since clearly we have very differing conceptual understanding of it

[wanton spire]

actually theres a video of a yt streamer claiming mod ash told him they can tag something to your account which can adjust your rng. i didnt think it was possible but when a known streamer who does jagex events says something like this and get invited back to jagex events, it kinda holds weight. the odds of them using against people is likely very small.

[pine lotus]

'individual account' as a drawn set is only reducing the pool from which rng will normalise

i mean, so instead of actually continuing the conversation, you act like i dont know the fundamentals, push that a few times and try and steer the conversation there, then decide that actually forming an argument is too much effort.

thats.. pretty rude.

[ionic kiln]

ok, can

[pine lotus]

a claim is just a claim, and i doubt that had any weight on whether they invited them again. however, i did mention PID, which changes on logout (not account)

i bet whatever that streamer heard was related to pid, and not actually any big conspiracy.

[ionic kiln]

i've seen it apply to "punished" accounts on other games

they literally make the account extremely "unlucky". pretty much torture rather than death kind of treatment.

[pine lotus]

other games arnt really relevant

they might tie luck to the account

rs does not.

[wanton spire]

have you ever heard people say "mtx buyers always get the golden spoon of jagex", ive always wondered if that was real or not.

[ionic kiln]

i'm more invested in the ironman luck meme instead. that one is much more believable tbh.

[wanton spire]

personally ive seen mtx users have a lot better rng than non mtx players, but that just me. could just be lucky rng

[pine lotus]

generally, the human memory more easily remembers 'bad' things that happen.

[ionic kiln]

this might fall under the confirmation bias thing

[pine lotus]

^

[wanton spire]

could be yea, fair assement id say

[ionic kiln]

albeit, there was the incident a couple months back about some bug from something. and i argued against it that it could be confirmation bias.

until it was reported multiple times within the day or something, and they confirmed it truly was a bug.

so, i'm glad to be proven wrong then~

[pine lotus]

yeah, its hard to know sometimes.

you very rarely see the full picture

and people do cherrypick information to show an agenda, all the time

which is a bias against such claims

[wanton spire]

100% right

[pine lotus]

the fact that they do leads us to believe its not true, as well though

when it could be

[wanton spire]

about the rng, would it be fair if jagex released data to show drop rates on accounts vs what drop rates are? should they do a live stream like they did for the combat stuff?

[pine lotus]

im not sure how that matters.

the drop rate is the drop rate.

[wanton spire]

yea but it would show if accounts are far past drop rates.

[pine lotus]

its just that you dont see players getting an average of the drop rate till they've done a seriously high amount of rolls.

[wanton spire]

and it would show the amount of accounts that are spooned vs normal vs unlucky

[pine lotus]

that would likely only cause problems

[wanton spire]

i mean maybe for sample size, they need 1k kc on average to qualifiy?

[pine lotus]

on average? WAY more.

and its not really about qualifying.

you need a very large sample size to truely get close to the real rate.

[wanton spire]

they could actually just go off everyones whose gotten a rare drop and post the low, high and median on chart and show where people tend to get drops

because hiding the people who have multiple drops under drop rate would give inaccurate representation to actual in game drop rates.

[pine lotus]

how would it?

[wanton spire]

it would hide the spooned account?

[pine lotus]

hide how? im not sure what you mean

rng is rng. just because youi're jealous that someone got something else faster doesnt really change that

some people get things faster, some dont. if you play long enough, things tend to even out.

[wanton spire]

well that also rolls around to the "These updates are about investing in the future of RuneScape, ensuring that the game remains fun, fair, and engaging for all types of players."

[pine lotus]

are you saying you'd rather take the rng out and just get things 100% on rate?

im betting a large majority of the playerbase would disagree with you that they dont want that

[wanton spire]

im saying theres a case to be made for blm

im not saying for 100% drop rates at all

[pine lotus]

oh, sure. im all for some bad luck mitigation. but it doesnt need to be that extreme.

[wanton spire]

yea by no means do i want 100% drop rates

that just turns into "i can farm this boss, this fast, so let me power farm for rares" which i do not want to happen

[pine lotus]

well, i did say 100% on rate, so on kill 100 if its 1/100

but yes, that would be terrible

[wanton spire]

i think blm like zammy would be pretty fair

[pine lotus]

the thing is, it doesnt need to be everywhere though

[wanton spire]

increased chance of rare after so many kills past drop rate by 15% would also work

[pine lotus]

its fine for luck to play a role in the game

[wanton spire]

gwd1 doesnt need blm, gwd2 doesnt need blm.

hm nak yea probably. 400 kc dry on a shard might be a lil rough on people

[pine lotus]

so, it only needs blm where you have pain points?

the funny thing is, i dont think mains need blm at all.

[wanton spire]

i would accept it where they see the problem is most persistent

[pine lotus]

it would just be unfair on them if irons got it.

[wanton spire]

they have the data, they can see where accounts are going dry and might need some love. and id be fine if the made some adjustments

[pine lotus]

the thing is, they likely have the stats and see things being overall close to rate

it doesnt matter if some individual accounts are going dry. it probably matters if they are quitting, but its likely a small % of the playerbase, and a smaller subsection of those quitting

[wanton spire]

i mean i daily see accounts with names that complain about rng. ive seen the pvme posts of people complaining about it rn.

[pine lotus]

everyone complains when they go dry on something

that doesnt mean they are really unhappy.

with rng in the game, you will go dry on something at some point.

[wanton spire]

oh for sure i agree you will go dry, id also agree you will be spooned at some bosses and dry at others.

[pine lotus]

heres another point. if something never feels bad, it also wont feel good

thats a very for rng argument

[wanton spire]

they could release a poll and see how people feel about rng, i wonder what the community would say.

[pine lotus]

eh, after being around osrs's community and polls, i really dont think thats a good idea xD

[wanton spire]

but also why did the add blm to zammy if the rng system here is just fine?

[pine lotus]

people have a habit of being convinced to vote against their best interests, while thinking its good, then ending up with a worse situation

i didnt say its just fine, im typically for light blm

some is good

not everything needs it

[wanton spire]

some is good yea

still wonder why they added blm to zammy, if they think the current system works though

[pine lotus]

the commons definitely needed nuking though

[wanton spire]

agreed, but i think the nerfs were a lil to hard

[pine lotus]

like, heres a good point. osrs is more popular than rs3, and generally has longer pvm grinds.

and less blm

not saying this should become that, but it doesnt really seem that impactful

[wanton spire]

i mean 4 hour zuk cape on osrs vs 12 min zuk cape on rs3. its crazy how different the grinds are

[pine lotus]

well, thats not really relevant

because they are both 100%

but you can go 1000s of hours getting megarares in osrs

all of which are actually pvm impactful, and content is designed around them

i know someone who was grinding toa for a year and a half before he got his

[wanton spire]

yea i know people who are super spooned on osrs and others who have to grind. the ones who have to grind tend to take months long breaks.

[pine lotus]

its good to take breaks regardless.