May Game Health Feedback Response

[opaque viper]

I was there when slayer rolled out, sold whips for over 50 mill lol

[covert igloo]

iron is deffo worth the swap, the community loves new players in it aswell

[mellow pendant]

oh god being one the VERY few in the slayer tower that early was crazy

[opaque viper]

but it was fun

[zinc cargo]

would be nice to get stats on the alchables, since alching still needs materials

[little reef]

but my Brassican Cloak 😢

[mellow pendant]

miss being able to loot peoples graves too 😄

[covert igloo]

is that from an event?

[opaque viper]

hahaha, that was a different kind of fun

[little reef]

WE2 I think is where i got it

and it's not in the anima islands shop

[mellow pendant]

waiting around for em to slowly die

[zinc cargo]

you could buy them from a shop at some point

[opaque viper]

no wilderness wall lol

[little reef]

[[brassican cape]]

[dense garden]

Wiki links found:
https://runescape.wiki/w/Brassican_Cloak

[covert igloo]

you can get it every spring eventr

[little reef]

WHAT

IM here I come

[covert igloo]

yep

LMAO

[uncut marsh]

You're basically forced to interact with everything the game has to offer and everything is more rewarding for it

Need ores to level smithing? Go mine em
Need herbs to make potions for whatever? Go farming
Need a specific drop to further upgrade your chosen combat style? Go grind that boss

Instead of almost everything being tied to how much gp it costs and/or makes, it's based on your needs and wants, and that not only makes everything more rewarding (it feels better to grind that EZK yourself from scratch than to buy it), but also just straight up more fun

[little reef]

Thank you for the very depthful answer

That does sound like a very rewarding experience

[covert igloo]

it definitely feels like a more "real" way to progress through the game, no shade intended

[mellow pendant]

every upgrade feels way more significant too, really

[zinc cargo]

this also means you can't buy your way out of RNG hell

[covert igloo]

sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit

[opaque viper]

Honestly, I do think Ironman accounts and normal accounts should have different drop tables. Go ahead and yell at me, but it is what I think

[covert igloo]

W take

[little reef]

is there a drop table that hasn't been made with irons in mind (post-2014)?

[uncut marsh]

Playing ironman mode I very much so feel like I'm actually 'playing the game', rather than 'playing the market'

[little reef]

iirc they take irons into account as well when designing drop tables

[mellow pendant]

we love rng hellscapes

[zinc cargo]

maybe add more dissassemble options for things you can't normally dissassemble

[covert igloo]

live by the rng, die by the rng

[little reef]

oh my god invention

getting port comps is probably the worst thing ever

[covert igloo]

scav

[mellow pendant]

quite literally in that case, rip account

[covert igloo]

not rlly

[covert igloo]

yeah hahaha

[little reef]

silent components 💔

[covert igloo]

dg tokens

ezpz

[mellow pendant]

cerberus = free comps

[covert igloo]

25k token pr silent comp

super easy

[uncut marsh]

One example that comes to mind is mementos drops from rasial, like what do you even need em for since you need 30k souls to even access him so at that point you're at most 5k souls off of maxing out the tree lmao

[covert igloo]

irons have plenty of ways around stuff

[mellow pendant]

ye we got the tech

[covert igloo]

thats why main thing is just to always ask, someone has done ur grind before and they probably have a tip or two

[mellow pendant]

you don't even need memento's anyway. i give mine to my teammate because 5 of them sustain all rituals lmao

[uncut marsh]

Well yeah gim is a thing but normal ironmen

[little reef]

communion rituals are still the best exp post-99, no?

[uncut marsh]

Mementos are just a dead drop

[zinc cargo]

gotta give a use to souls

[covert igloo]

yeah but you dont need to do rituals till 120

just go do combat

[mellow pendant]

disturbances return more than you use also

[zinc cargo]

maybe something where you help souls move on for a reward

[uncut marsh]

You can use any kind of bones for that as well, xp stays the same afaik

[little reef]

actually, as an iron you'd probably want to do ectoplasm rituals

[uncut marsh]

Or impure essence

[mellow pendant]

yeah i do my 20 mory leg trips to ecto with yak every few days lol

[covert igloo]

t80 imcando hatchet with naturalist + honed 6 or primal hatchet

theres no wiki graphs to rely on in this game 😭

[mellow pendant]

uhh i would lean to primal because 20 tiers diff

[uncut marsh]

Primal hatchet is T100 right?

[mellow pendant]

but idk rly

[covert igloo]

ye

[uncut marsh]

Hmm

Might be primal then

[covert igloo]

naturalist + 5 is 10 % iirc

[mellow pendant]

try both for 20 mins each lol

[little reef]

the t90 hatchet is easyy to get -- and t90 with perks would be better than primal

just get to t90

[uncut marsh]

But hatchet of ember and glade is pretty easy to get

[covert igloo]

well umm

ive got a slight questing dislike

[little reef]

YOU'RE AN IRON

[uncut marsh]

Fair

[covert igloo]

please bro 😭

[mellow pendant]

uhh should i have already got this with quest cape and 96 wc lmao

i'm still using crystal LMAO

[covert igloo]

KEK

[mellow pendant]

bro i just chop daily golden bamboo with brawlers

[uncut marsh]

Hey I don't like questing either, or clues, or farm runs

I've been a full time iron for 4-5 years LMAO

[mellow pendant]

it works

[covert igloo]

real based true

[little reef]

farming urns is so relaxing

i do it as a main

[covert igloo]

hopefully porcelain urns are good

[mellow pendant]

farm runs are fun but i have stockholm syndrome from doing them every hour of gameplay for the past 8 years

[uncut marsh]

I get all my farming xp from pof

[little reef]

urns

grinding urns

from soft clay

[mellow pendant]

oh no i don't enjoy making my urns

that's pain

[uncut marsh]

BROTHER the hard part is literally done

[covert igloo]

same

[uncut marsh]

Just chop elders with scrim

[covert igloo]

hahahaha

[uncut marsh]

You'll have T90 hatchet in a couple hours

[little reef]

soft clay stone in Prif with porters

[mellow pendant]

ah yeah no tree shaking yet

[uncut marsh]

That makes it significantly worse

[mellow pendant]

i just do em on ithell hour to bank em that way

[uncut marsh]

But get on that

[mellow pendant]

i might just hold out till i get scrim done, i do ports so yh

[little reef]

but then I can't afk it while doing housework lol

[uncut marsh]

Easy

[mellow pendant]

like i say i just chop my 1 bamboo plot a day rn anyway lol

[mellow pendant]

mains and their unlimited porters

[little reef]

:D

[uncut marsh]

Where infinite porter event

😢

[mellow pendant]

i missed that ever so slightly too

coulda done with it for crafting

[little reef]

there wil probably be one before amascut

I would imagine they'll do a pre-Amascut hype event

[uncut marsh]

Gims probably won't be allowed to participate

Sadly

[little reef]

wait irons get the benefits from those events?

like porters and stuff?

[uncut marsh]

Normal irons get infinite porters yeah

[little reef]

that's so busted

[uncut marsh]

Not like the overload cauldrons and stuff like that tho

[uncut marsh]

Yeah I got 120 arch, spear tip and inq staff on my iron last time

All during that event

[little reef]

oh mmy god what is this

why is this a thing 😭

[mellow pendant]

very unethical

[uncut marsh]

Free elder ovl but I think you need the herb lvl for it

Like you need to have 106 herb to use it

[little reef]

nope

free elder ovl for everyone

but if you have 107 you get extra buffs on top of it

for 1 whole hour

[uncut marsh]

Interesting

Well ironmen didn't get that

[mellow pendant]

juicy merchant day

[little reef]

I think the merchant has sacred clay in his stock for the next week

[mellow pendant]

oh what a week

might finish the sc outfits lol

[grand locust]

I can understand wanting to encourage people to get resources from places other than bosses. This is a good thing to facilitate. However, the level of inflation is still obscene. The GE Tax was insufficient to offset the additional GP saved by the death changes at launch, and it has only gotten worse. The GE tax needs to be higher, and certain high value items need to be tradable only via the GE (or the tax has to be on in person trades too). This will make everyone's GP worth more, and prevent taking a break from literally costing you wealth. Prices should be more or less stable with time, with a preference for going down versus going up

Meddling with drop rates because "items aren't worth enough" is utter madness

These changes are actively bad for game health

[reef socket]

Weaken them in exchange for more longevity

[low grotto]

so does hm ag now just have two seperate rolls for water runes?

oh wait water battlestaff nvm

[west narwhal]

inflation is obscene based on what? Bonds have stopped being a good index of inflation since necroscape reduced the demand for expensive items which consequently reduced the amount of ppl buying bonds with real money to sell for gp

The GE Tax was insufficient to offset the additional GP saved by the death changes at launch
it was actually overperforming at that time

this was also by design. the amount needed to balance it was 1.5%. 2% was chosen

(also reducing alchables does reduce inflation too)

[agile hamlet]

but will it reduce the cost of endgame items or pvm necessities? i doubt it so those will be even harder to obtain

[west narwhal]

not the aim of the update. most of these are already in a decent spot price-wise, especially the gear (which is getting loot buffs anyway)

you don't want gear too low or it devalues doing the bosses for them

spirit weed seeds have the potential to be a problem. they said they were looking at adding new sources

[agile hamlet]

gear is well above the billions mark that will become out of reach for some

[west narwhal]

do you remember how much those same items used to cost

[agile hamlet]

and if thats not the aim, we're in for quite the depression.

i don't remember since i wasn't around at release but i do see them in the billions now

[little reef]

If they are out of reach after the update, then they would have been out of reach right now. Nothing is going to change in that aspect by adjusting a few drops

I don't think these changes are going to affect raw profit/hr as much as people are claiming

Zammy might go from 200m to 150m

like that's still really good by any metric

and when you have less gp pouring into the game, prices also tend to fall

[agile hamlet]

it will be out of reach for more people since profits go down but cost of pvm supplies remain the same

[little reef]

if zammy goes from 200m to 100m, expect something that costs 4b off of the GE to fall as well

less gold coming into the game means that each gp has more individual value

[agile hamlet]

it won't be that quick to fall if at all

[little reef]

this will also make the cost of commons rise, because there are less of them coming into the economy

this isn't the end of the world scenario for PvM upgrades that you seem to be making it out to be

[agile hamlet]

this isn't going to fix it either. i see the argument of it should have been addressed sooner and i agree with it. what we have now and the prices of it are too attached to what we have currently for methods. this is too late to fix

also apologies for slow responses. i'm kinda forced to type with 1 hand atm. my arm has been bothering me for a while

[vast meteor]

I for one support this change. We can’t complain about the economy and then complain about it when they make a change to fix it.

[crisp steeple]

tbf if general stores were largely from spirit shards, that doesn't actually generate GP since the only way to get shards was to sink that GP in the first place. it's a net neutral and probably shouldn't have been included

[zinc bloom]

The 5 mech glacor drop rate decrease is honestly disappointing. Lowering it from 15 to like 3 is such a bad move. I'd say lower from 15 to like 10 but to go from 15 to 3 is some of the oddest choices I've ever seen

[crisp steeple]

idk if anyone said it but this is per month

[zinc bloom]

Like 5 mech normal mode should still be rewarding but yall basically killed 5 mech glacor normal with this update

[crisp steeple]

just do hardmode

[zinc bloom]

Elitist thing I've ever heard today. Maybe some people can't do hard mode?

[crisp steeple]

hardmode is literally 5 mech nm

[west narwhal]

it's slightly harder cause of the triple cannon. I think arms is a bit tankier too?

but with current day dps should be fine

when I was a pvm noob it got me sometimes though

[crisp steeple]

triple cannon you just devo

[west narwhal]

yeah the thing is that prevents you from devoing arms. and if you get b2b cannon you need to do sth else. again, it's just a small barrier when you're noob level

[zinc bloom]

I have to use full revolution so hard mode is a bit rough for me. I'd like to see at the very least they nerf hard mode damage a bit like I get hard mode is hard mode but I should still be able to resance the cannon in hard mode

[crisp steeple]

you don't need to devo arms at 0 enr

just bloat and auto like twice

[zinc bloom]

The fact you can't makes hard mode and normal 5 mech completely different

[west narwhal]

Vad I'm telling you. This is from the perspective of a noob (and was pre-necro for me)

[crisp steeple]

right and i'm sure at some point 5 mech nm seemed daunting

but you learned

[west narwhal]

not to say it's very hard but there is a difficulty diff

[zinc bloom]

If they gonna nerf 5 mech normal into the ground at the very least nerf hard mode cannon as well

[west narwhal]

I think HM is at a decent spot

[crisp steeple]

you probably have bigger issues if you can't devo the cannon because you need it for arms at low enrage

[zinc bloom]

Honestly I don't agree with being able to resance cannon in 5 mech normal but not being able to hard mode

[crisp steeple]

you can

devo isn't even the best way to deal with HM cannon. best way involves using resonance and reflect

[west narwhal]

yeah the main issue was being on revo++. Being on revo basics fixed that

[zinc bloom]

It'll still kill you if you do though

[crisp steeple]

pray mage + reflect 2 hits. resonance the 3rd

[zinc bloom]

Sadly due to irl limitations full revolution is the best way I can play this game.

All I'm saying is to completely kill normal mode 5 mech glacor is something I heavily disagree with

[crisp steeple]

and even if the overall profit of 5 mech goes down, i'm sure there is other content people can do instead

game has like 70 bosses. go try some other ones

[zinc bloom]

They went from 15 to 3 for 5 mech that's a completely bad design choice. 5 mech normal should be the most rewarding but they completely killed it to where it's not even worth doing now

[crisp steeple]

it's still decent for scripture and artefacts

[zinc bloom]

Sure but to go from 15 to 3 is insanity if they went from 15 to like 8 or 9 maybe 10 that'd be fine but to do that drastic of a drop is such a stupid design choice

[crisp steeple]

just because you personally disagree with it, doesn't mean it's stupid

[zinc bloom]

The economy is fucked already in the game and even this won't ever fix it. It's like trying to put a band aid on a burst pipe.

[mellow pendant]

breezy already said he's gonna talk to them about loosening multi at 5 iirc

after the blog went out

[zinc bloom]

So these notes aren't final? Cuz I thought they said they were final.

[crisp steeple]

a current 5 mech kill averages like 900k gp/kill. that's kind of nuts

[zinc bloom]

Oooo 900k gp per kill compared to how many other bosses that do 5 times that or even 10 times that? It makes no sense

[crisp steeple]

5 mech AG is extremely accessible and easy. for reference, TH brings in 9b gp every month. normal mode AG brings in that much raw gp every day

[zinc bloom]

If they nerf anything they should be nerfing the bosses that gp per hour is worse at. Their literally putting a band aid on a burst pipe instead of addressing the core issues of just actually fixing the economy overall. Sure if you put several thousand band aids over a burst pipe I'm sure it'll fix it temporarily but it'll get ruined again later. I just think this update is not good overall due to it not actually doing anything.

[crisp steeple]

nerf the bosses that are already not good profit..? wat

[zinc bloom]

Then remove treasure hunter gp or remove treasure hunter altogether. I'd much rather see them remove th than nerf the bosses

[agile hamlet]

that seems backwards to me?

[crisp steeple]

it's not. NM AG singlehandedly dumps as much raw gp into the game every day as TH does in an entire month

so to sit here and say that TH is a problem but AG isn't is insane

[zinc bloom]

Can we get some analytics on this?because I highly doubt that

I think th single handle dumps more gp into the game than any boss

[crisp steeple]

guess you only skimmed the 2 newsposts put out today that this channel was created to talk about

averages for the entire month of may - per Jagex

[agile hamlet]

i saw the numbers they put out but i'm just a bit skeptical

[crisp steeple]

note the second line under overview. every day - per jagex

[crisp steeple]

why would they lie just to nerf like 4 bosses

[zinc bloom]

This doesn't seem right at all for th. It seems sus asf and a lie. I dint believe these analytics at all. I feel th is way higher

[crisp steeple]

yeah so the data doesn't confirm your own bias therefore it's wrong, a lie, and not to be trusted. great feedback

[zinc bloom]

You do know people can be paid to lie right? How do we know they aren't being paid by the shareholders to lie?

[vast meteor]

Th is responsible for crashing the market of banite stone spirits? Interesting take

[crisp steeple]

huh

[zinc bloom]

Never said that I simply think the gp from th is super sus

[vast meteor]

You said the analytics are a lie

Don’t gaslight me

[agile hamlet]

they have stretched the truth in the past. i'm not calling it a flat out lie but i need more assurance to believe this fully. it just seems far too much value of a claim in my eyes

[zinc bloom]

The th analytics are most likely yeah. You can be paid to lie about something like th gp analytics if the real numbers hurt the company

[vast meteor]

So where do you draw the information from that they lied?

Just speculating?

[zinc bloom]

Think about th analytics would be the most thing they'd lie about since th is one of the things that bring them irl cash. It'd be the highest thing on the list to lie about

[crisp steeple]

i'm just saying the minute you choose to reject any data put out about TH that doesn't fit your world view, jagex is unlikely to consider your feedback about other matters because you're being completely unreasonable at that point

[vast meteor]

That doesn’t add up Elsa

[zinc bloom]

Show the actual profits of th and give the players something to know they aren't lying about the th analytics so they don't have their irl pockets hurt

[vast meteor]

I’m pretty sure the profits were published a few years ago or something?

Use those

[crisp steeple]

they have publicly posted revenue from MTX multiple times

[covert igloo]

They post the quarterlies n stuff yeah

[zinc bloom]

Show us the irl profits from th if they are far lower than membership profits I'd be more inclined to believe that th cash numbers

[covert igloo]

Mtx was 30m pounds to subscriptions 140m i believe

[crisp steeple]

they are

[covert igloo]

Thats all mtx including bonds

So about 20% of their profits

[zinc bloom]

Or better yet Show us the amount of keys people spend daily on th

[crisp steeple]

to be fair bonds were lumped into membership despite them being usable for other MTX purposes but i digress

[covert igloo]

Oh then i stand corrected

Apologies

[zinc bloom]

I'd be more likely to believe their th gp numbers if we got complete full transparency on the th keys being used

[agile hamlet]

i thought they separated all those categories when they posted their profits

[covert igloo]

Surely these numbers arent that hard to understand

[crisp steeple]

i bet fewer keys are purchased than the number of free keys used every day

[covert igloo]

Matter fact you can calc it yourself

[crisp steeple]

yeah they specified what constituted what. bonds were under membership cuz in OSRS you can't really do anything with them other than that

so they followed suit for rs3

[agile hamlet]

interesting

[crisp steeple]

ends up being a little disingenuous for rs3 due to that but it's still largely in favor of subscriptions

[zinc bloom]

My problem with the th gp numbers is they are the highest most likely ones they'd lie about. If we got a completely th key breakdown alongside those gp numbers it'd be more believed than just simply saying this is how much gp th brings in. Th can be used with irl money thus its the most likely stat they'd wanna lie about. It'd hurt their share holders if it came out that more gp came from th than any boss in rs3.

[covert igloo]

I feel like im going insane how are people freaking out about the nerfs they are pretty well thought out

[crisp steeple]

yeah none of that makes any sense. you're just pitchfork and torching at this point

[covert igloo]

This sounds like major paranoia tbh

Ts is not happening

[zinc bloom]

Not really. It's a logical question to ask since th can use irl money and can effect their irl profits

[vast meteor]

Wait

[covert igloo]

If people want money they wont buy keys, they buy bonds

[crisp steeple]

you're just repeating "they could lie about th and that would be beneficial for them" without actually specifying what they'd have to gain by lying

[vast meteor]

Where did you first start to think that Jagex lied about the data they did publish?

[crisp steeple]

what shareholder is gonna give a shit about how much gp comes into this game from TH

[zinc bloom]

Then they should also provide a bond analysis as well. Unless I missed it but I didn't see anthring about bond gp on that gp list

[covert igloo]

Well what if the govt. Has cameras installed in the birds that they keep hidden from us

[crisp steeple]

bonds don't spawn gp

[vast meteor]

Bonds remove gp

[crisp steeple]

bonds are sold to people who pay for them with the gp they got from arch glacor

[zinc bloom]

Bonds remove gp but what about the bonds people use to get th keys and then get more gp from th than they did from the bond itself? Alot of things on th can be sold on the ge now. Now if they made it so nothing from th can be sold on the ge I'd actually be okay with that

[vast meteor]

So essentially Elsa, you’re upset that they didn’t publish TH datasets on negative economic impact and nerfed methods of gp acquisition in game before ever touching on the MTX side of things even though they said they would last year? If so I understand where you’re coming from- if I’m mistaken then I don’t understand what you mean.

[crisp steeple]

selling things from TH on the ge

does not generate new GP

[zinc bloom]

The fact that th was even included in the gp list without a complete breakdown of keys per day and such is an odd choice to make

[agile hamlet]

bonds are in a weird place and hard to pinpoint because yes they spawn with irl money which adds like 130m+gp into the game but to retrade it, it removes 10% so its hard to say where it goes

[crisp steeple]

that is GP you're getting from another player because it already exists

[vast meteor]

Although if that is what you mean, I’m not sure how that indicates some general conspiracy to deceive players

[crisp steeple]

bonds don't create gp out of thin air. the gp comes from another player

they exclusively sink gp

[zinc bloom]

Overall I think more gp sinks would be better than nerfing content that is old asf

[crisp steeple]

transferring coins from 1 player to another does not generate coins. it moves them

high alching salvage takes an item and creates new coins out of thin air

[zinc bloom]

I'd much rather see more gp sinks than nerfing things that don't really need nerfed

[vast meteor]

Alch machines generate tons of gp but are item sinks. If the items don’t need to be sunk in the first place then Jagex can adjust alch machines which seem to generate about 50% of the gp in the game

[agile hamlet]

the bonds themselves do spawn "out of thin air" but like i said their mechanics make it difficult to place how much is generated from it since theres no limit to how many times it gets traded

[vast meteor]

So nerfing the supply of items from bossing would directly benefit the economy two fold

[zinc bloom]

Exactly fix the alch machines instead of nerfing things that don't need nerfed

[vast meteor]

No it’s a two step process

If they removed alch machines or nerfed them there’d be an overflow of the items that get ached

[crisp steeple]

you're not understanding. if you sell a player a bond for 100m, did that 100m previously exist in the game before you sold it to them?*

[covert igloo]

Alchables from these bosses has to be adjusted for sure

The dwarf weed seed nerf on rasial is super fucking rough for irons tho

Most use herb in the game

Need that shit bad

[vast meteor]

Nerf the rate of item acquisition of alch related boss drops, then you can adjust the alch machines and stabilise the output* of gp that’s their intention

Part at least

[zinc bloom]

I just think overall this update was not thought about very much since the last time they brought it up. Sure the rare drop rate increase is nice but to nerf content that is what 5 years old now maybe more is insanity to me. If it was that bad they should've done this several weeks after the bosses came out

[covert igloo]

I got about 3300 dwarf weed seeds in 1820 kills of rasial

Thats about 42 herb runs
In the new model it will be about 1/8th of that so 6 herb runs in 1820 rasial kills

[reef socket]

Time to consider planting one seed instead of 10?

Or something in the middle?

[vast meteor]

I think they put quite a lot of thought in, there’s many datapoints they considered and the information they provided before the update is quite in depth.

[covert igloo]

Is this not why the 10 seeds thing is a thing, to sink seeds and lower time spent farm running?

[reef socket]

There’s a buffer in there

[covert igloo]

Now i gotta spend less time doing content and more chores since its hourly

[agile hamlet]

the point i am making isn't about a transfer of gp. jagex is using drops and their value to justify gp being created. bonds are just like that. just like when a dragonrider lance drops from a boss or a drop from kerapac. bonds are dropped and adds another item of value into the game. its mechanic of costing 10% to retrade gives it some oddities in how much is brought into the game

[zinc bloom]

I mean sure but how old is this content? Why nerf them now after so many years instead of back when these bosses came out? The update doesn't make any sense overall. As I said they are simply putting a band aid on a burst pipe

[reef socket]

It was to undo some of the ridiculous seed tsunami from the well and I don’t know what else

But if supplies dry up then the outcome of the calculation must change too

[vast meteor]

Seed power drops the supply of seeds while raising the supply of herbs. Meaning seed price go up herb price go down.

[zinc bloom]

As I said before I'd much rather see them put thought into gp sinks than be nerfing content that's over 5 years old now

[reef socket]

At some point, the extra herbs per harvest stops being worth the extra seeds used

[vast meteor]

So if it’s broke only fix it if it’s new.

[zinc bloom]

This update is a band aid for a burst pipe it'll never fix the core issue

[agile hamlet]

there are some gp sinks already though

[zinc bloom]

Not enough if gp is still an issue

[vast meteor]

Seeds are so cheap right now bc of massive oversupply

[reef socket]

If only they fixed it when it was new

[zinc bloom]

Exactly my point bacon

[crisp steeple]

The point you're making doesn't make sense. Selling items to other players doesn't create new coins. It doesn't add to the already existing pool of coins and cause inflation. Bonds and dragon rider lances cannot inject GP into the game unless they are alched or sold to a store

[reef socket]

Better late then never, maybe

[zinc bloom]

If this issue was there which I'm sure it was when these bosses came out they should've fixed them then instead of waiting 5 years

[vast meteor]

Seems like you’re not upset with this update, but the past five years

Step back emotionally for a minute and look objectively

[reef socket]

As long as we ignore money velocity, that is true. Money velocity is very interesting though.

[crisp steeple]

They don't add 130m gp. That gp already exists

[vast meteor]

Bonds remove money via bond tax

[zinc bloom]

This update screams we can't think of any other good gp sinks so we are nerfing old content to band aid fix

[agile hamlet]

they do inject it though, just not directly. you're thinking of the actual creation of gp which if that was the aim, jagex should nerf alching

[reef socket]

It may be in preparation for amascut

[vast meteor]

Bonds reduce inflation and promote circulation of wealth

[covert igloo]

Some of these 100% needed the nerf

[agile hamlet]

it does add though, just not directly like i previously said

[zinc bloom]

Why would it bebfir that that makes even less sense

[reef socket]

If it has elder rune salvage, you will know

[vast meteor]

Absolutely needed update tho

[crisp steeple]

Okay so I'm done explaining this

[vast meteor]

Why should a boss drop hundreds of a resource per kill

[reef socket]

Oh wait, there is still banite salvage that hasn’t come out yet

[zinc bloom]

Sure 5 years ago but not now when it's gotten so bad these nerfs won't fix anything

[vast meteor]

Banite salvage!

[reef socket]

Amascut edition?

[zinc bloom]

Simply put it's a band aid on burst pipe and honestly I think it's a poor choice.

[sudden storm]

Arguably, just because "the damage has already been done" doesn't necessarily mean it's too late to change things

[vast meteor]

Amascut for life

I agree with rune

[reef socket]

Bond flipping reduces inflation

[cloud coral]

if you have a burst pipe irl, do you ignore it and continue making new drains?

[reef socket]

If it goes straight to end user there is no gp used up in the transaction

[vast meteor]

Accurate

That’s true I should have specified

[zinc bloom]

No you fix the issue and not with a band aid

[reef socket]

It was implied and we understood it

[vast meteor]

What if the bandaid contains elder overload salve (12)

[reef socket]

But others may not lol

[reef socket]

I would like that

[zinc bloom]

This update is a band aid and not actually going to do anything to fix the core issue

[vast meteor]

Mmm (12) potions

[reef socket]

If they made them tradable it would be great too

I don’t want to make them at all

[agile hamlet]

You're point is more directed towards gp creation directly and i understand where that comes from. You're trying to say that the gp itself is not created by the drop. Its valid. My point is its created indirectly by creating something of gp value. I'm not invalidating your point but i just feel if that was the direction then alchemy should have been nerfed and not the drops

[vast meteor]

I have 2k in my bank rn

[reef socket]

Let someone else going for 200m make them lol

[vast meteor]

Fr

[cloud coral]

you're mixing up raw gp and items with a gp value

[crisp steeple]

Your point still doesn't make sense. Bonds cannot contribute to GP inflation. Like ever

[zinc bloom]

Feel like if they'd ask their community for gp sink ideas they'd get enough ideas that it would probably fix the core issue of gp

[agile hamlet]

So is jagex apparently

[vast meteor]

Post them in suggested updates @zinc bloom

There’s a thread for that

[agile hamlet]

Bonds was used as an example and its trade mechanic does create a sink for gp. But the act of spawning one creates the value

[fresh turret]

it doesnt create gp in teh game

at all

its a ge based trade between you and I

[agile hamlet]

Again, not directly but it creates an item of value

[fresh turret]

thats not how inflation works

[crisp steeple]

Value doesn't matter when they're looking at raw gp entering the game through monster drops or items being alched

[cloud coral]

yes, but creating an item of value does not contribute to gp inflation, which is raw gp entering the game

[fresh turret]

its not a credit system where you have fake gp

[zinc bloom]

I know I just think if a jmod made a thread for it'd get more traction players threads get buried quite fast there. Lol

[fresh turret]

its effectively a stock if you want to describe it. goes up and down daily in value based on trading or a lack of

[crisp steeple]

NM AG adds 9b coins per day through coin and salvage/battlestaff drops. NOTHING to do with uniques

[agile hamlet]

Then maybe alchemy should be nerfed to fix that gp influx if thats what they're going for

[fresh turret]

can buy one and use it for various things. the gp sink is if you want to sell it again

[crisp steeple]

Nerfing alch value vs quantity of alchables accomplishes the same goal

[vast meteor]

I understand your frustration, it’s a long running problem in RuneScape that feels neglected- and I don’t mean to suggest blindly trust Jagex because their track record has NOT been good. But I think we should stand back objectively and watch to verify what the intentions are instead of speculate before the impacts have occurred

[crisp steeple]

1 item that alchs for 20k is basically the same as 2 items that alch for 10k each

[agile hamlet]

But say they nerf the alch value and not touch the drops. Less gp would enter the game since the number of drops hasn't changed but the alch value did. I feel that would be more effective and less impactful than what is being brought to us

[fresh turret]

it would have less merit to alch imo then

[agile hamlet]

The end goal is to lower the gp coming in. One causes supply issues while the other reigns in the gp being created

[fresh turret]

even at a 50% reduction tho. that 9b is still 4.5b

less gp introduction is healthy for rs3

[agile hamlet]

They can pick any number to achieve their end goal but it would be better imo than causing supply disruptions

[vast meteor]

Value is just a quantification of the players perception of time, and inflation simply reduces the potency of time spent. It’s not as if you’re going to get evicted from your house. I feel the economy is significantly less important than combat updates, new and renovated content, base game mechanics.

[fresh turret]

maybe im the weird one for thinking suppy disruption to a gp gain in the game, is a good thing

you can def obtain other things that net gp just the same without alchs

[crisp steeple]

Brother. GP = quantity of item * alch value

If you are trying to reduce gp in half, it does not matter whether you cut the quantity or the alch value in half. They are the same

[agile hamlet]

Maybe? My thinking is supply disruptions are not healthy amd they're other ways to achieve the same thing

[vast meteor]

BIS items are hardly expensive. Is the intent of the game to achieve the most gp possible or enjoy content?

[fresh turret]

bit of both me thinks

not heavily both

[agile hamlet]

Right i understand that. The deeper thought is one causes supply disruptions while the other balances alchemy without a supply issue

[zinc bloom]

sure i can agree to that, but overall the update i highly doubt will end up doing much if anything to fix teh issues. people will go farm gate instead for alchables since they arent nerfing her

[fresh turret]

whats the supply?

to say it?

[vast meteor]

I guess gp is external motivation so it doesn’t really bother internally motivated folks, which is why I’m not on the same page as why the changes are so controversial

[fresh turret]

just alchs?

cause theres a massive amount of things separate to alchables that will serve as your supply in this scenario

[agile hamlet]

The alchable stuff that jagex says is entering the game gp wise

[fresh turret]

we def dont need alchs. it would suck for people who use it as their main gp gain but its not good for the game to exist thats for sure.

[crisp steeple]

WHAT supply issues? It's SALVAGE

[vast meteor]

If a boss provides less gp per hour would you stop doing that boss?

[fresh turret]

no, I vorago

its a net loss

[agile hamlet]

Apparently people seem to use it as their gp source

[fresh turret]

obj i find that a problem

more than anything else

[agile hamlet]

Thats not what jagex is claiming if they're hitting drops like seeds and herbs

[fresh turret]

im not saying its wrong to use it as a suppliment to their main gp gain source

but as their primary form? theres so much being ignored

[agile hamlet]

I agree with that one. Supplementary income is fine but if it gets to be a main source of gp like the numbers suggest then its time to look at the method itself

[proven perch]

the point of hitting stuff like seeds is so that places don’t have to drop 800 of them at once for those drops to not be worthless

[crisp steeple]

Seeds and herbs are not contributing to raw gp inflation homie

[vast meteor]

Is it a bad thing if the main means of obtaining a crushed nest was woodcutting instead of an Ice boss?

[fresh turret]

so to kinda tie it in, this is really the stance that jagex' is taking this. they see major inflation that supercedes all current forms and addressing it. I can accept people dont like how its being done but its a method they chose and it will work.

[vast meteor]

Big agree

[proven perch]

I also think that this is just the first step in a larger plan

[fresh turret]

agreed

[vast meteor]

^

Like modifying alch machines

[agile hamlet]

I'd say there may be a better way of addressing it them since its become too attached to the game after being like this for so long

[proven perch]

by reducing gold inflation they could do things like say, taking a portion of the ge tax and using it to buy and remove certain overly supplied items from the economy

[vast meteor]

Changing how pvm and skilling affect eachother

[agile hamlet]

Again, not the point i am making

[vast meteor]

Like how the g.e tax replaced the death cost so people could pvm for cheap

And instead the inflation was reduced via the 1% and flippers

[proven perch]

idk tbh, it’s not practical to go back and update the drop table of everything to meet newer standards

[agile hamlet]

I agree it isn't but i feel we've become too accustomed to it that changing it now is going to cause a bad ripple effect

[proven perch]

honestly I don’t think the changes to things like spirit weed seeds / adren crystals are going to be as felt as people are making them out to be

esp with them saying that they want to look into putting items like those onto other droptables from slayer and stuff, albeit in more reasonable quantities

[crisp steeple]

Seeds across the board are worth basically nothing. Even tree/fruit tree seeds

[vast meteor]

It’s always felt weird that bosses like Vindi drop 200+ noted dragon bones

[crisp steeple]

Can thank POF for that one

[agile hamlet]

They're argument is gp being generated which if their data is 100% accurate alchemy is the culprit

[proven perch]

arbuck seeds single handedly holding up the seed market

[agile hamlet]

Never liked POF >.<

[crisp steeple]

They didn't nerf seeds because of alchemy. They nerfed seeds because zammy drops HUNDREDS per hour

[proven perch]

^

[vast meteor]

Make the drops make sense

[proven perch]

also I can go do a 200ks AG streak and get more spirit weed seeds than you could reasonably plant in like 1 or 2 months

[crisp steeple]

I finished my zammy log up unironically 10k dwarf weed seeds

[proven perch]

or go do 5hrs of zammy or ras and have like 200+ of each seed they drop

[crisp steeple]

And the herb -> seed change happened when I was like 70% done already

[agile hamlet]

Going off topic for a second. Love the profile pic, so cute

[vast meteor]

Thx it’s my cat she’s a dork

[proven perch]

I think it helps to remember there’s kind of two types of inflation at play

gp inflation and inflation of item quantities

both are a problem but they’re their own unique problems

[agile hamlet]

Indeed they are

[agile hamlet]

Lol ive had derpy kitties before too

[proven perch]

I think this update is oriented at reducing gp inflation primarily whilst also toning down the quantity inflation of items at those places as well so they don’t have to pass over the same place twice

[vast meteor]

RIGHT ON THE MONEY DING DING

That’s the most logical interpretation of this update imo

[proven perch]

also big fan of raksha dropping arbuck seeds now

[crisp steeple]

I'm glad willow is better at English than me

Am hopeless

[agile hamlet]

I don't feel this is the right way to do it though just because it looks like its "swing at everything we'll hit something eventually " approach. Sometimes a double pass through targets it better without major disruptions

[vast meteor]

That’s a fair counterpoint

[agile hamlet]

I think you're english was fine. You made valid points

[crisp steeple]

I am frequently a poor communicator

[agile hamlet]

I know how that feels

[proven perch]

I guess, but they have the same amount of data for raw quantities of items as they do gp, so I feel like in this case doing it at once is less likely to cause significant outrage

[crisp steeple]

I only like to describe things in a way that makes sense to me :v)

[agile hamlet]

My problem is i know what i want to say and it makes perfect sense in my head but when i say it, its like a preschooler said it

[proven perch]

I kind of just have a verbose method of speaking when I’m making a point sometimes lol

[agile hamlet]

Idk i feel like its going to cause a lot of damage imo

[proven perch]

Another thing to remember is that these changes are gonna take a long time to be felt with how much surplus is in the economy

so by doing this now and watching what happens with that they can make adjustments where needed

[crisp steeple]

There's actually something about this in the newspost hold on

[agile hamlet]

Oh?

[proven perch]

tangentially related but did you know that 10% of the ge tax from a single type of phat alone is usually enough to buy every wine traded on the ge in that timeframe?

[crisp steeple]

Cockatrice eggs!

They nerfed the number of loot rolls per kill AND the quantity per roll

[proven perch]

zammy wines I mean

[crisp steeple]

And these items still haven't come close to bouncing back from the initial crash

[proven perch]

I think the biggest impact for now will be adren crystals for irons

but that’s a necessary casualty imo

[crisp steeple]

I do not think the non-alchs are going to wildly swing in the other direction

Because nothing from croesus ever did following the initial nerf wave

[agile hamlet]

They aren't hitting croesus are they?

[proven perch]

I think they might but only if they have a widespread sink

[gilded grove]

no

hes saying when they nerfed croesus in the past

[proven perch]

they reviewed croe and found it fine

[crisp steeple]

If anything croesus wasn't heavy-handed enough

[proven perch]

agreed personally

would be down if croe commons were nerfed and uniques/pages were buffed but eh

actually, sidenote, I kinda think bik book should get the grim page treatment

[agile hamlet]

The what?

[vast meteor]

Good I use Jas

[proven perch]

there was an update a few years ago that made a single grimoire page a guaranteed drop from Solak, gave him a 1/25 to drop a bunch of pages at once, and gave the grove slayer mobs a rare chance to give a page

[agile hamlet]

Interesting

[crisp steeple]

Bik page should be guaranteed at 420 contrib

[agile hamlet]

Um... lol

[crisp steeple]

What

[agile hamlet]

The number you came up with lol

[proven perch]

that or like guarantee one randomly to a person in the team every kill and add like a 1/300 per loot roll to get a cluster of like 5-10 pages

[crisp steeple]

That's the number for max loot rolls at croesus

[proven perch]

^

[fresh turret]

^

[crisp steeple]

So blame jagex

[agile hamlet]

Oh lol my mind went elsewhere

[proven perch]

shroom boss with a weed reference

[crisp steeple]

Can't use any of my good emotes in here

[agile hamlet]

Dammit lol

[crisp steeple]

But ya it would benefit people doing 4s and duos while doing nothing for the people afking masses

Good incentive!

[proven perch]

I think the grim page drop rework also showed that it doesn’t affect the price of pages too much in the long run

through both the increase of people willing to use it and content updates making grim more useful

[crisp steeple]

I think they technically went up after

But bik pages absolutely shouldn't be like 10m each

[proven perch]

which would be emulated both through, well more people using bik book, and clues becoming more valuable every time something new gets made dyeable or uses fort comps

[proven perch]

for sure

man now I’m remembering how downright miserable I was going for croesus log

I nolifed that shit over the span of like a week and a half

1826 kills for a crypt top…

[crisp steeple]

2222 for hammer!!

[proven perch]

oof

oh yeah speaking of drops that need adjustments

Black stone arrows

why is a single bsa grico 70k ;-;

that shits more expensive than an overload dose

[crisp steeple]

Jagex is weird about the price on certain items

Like a pure essence is worth more than a crushed nest

OSRS players would never believe you

Should really be more sources for BSA tips

[proven perch]

imo up the quantity from ed3 and add them to ed1/ed2

maybe vork as well idk

[proven perch]

specifically the min roll quantity I think

[cinder brook]

I really appreciate the work you guys put into this post! Great work! It helps me to understand it better - the last post was just throwing in some numbers. With this one it is understandable, where you are coming from.
When the nerfs first have been proposed, I was really upset about them and felt like this is not really going anywhere.
I still have some major problems with what you are writing, but agree on many things as well. The huge influx of GP through alch'ables is bad for the long term health of the game. Also the massive afk-farming of "high level" bosses. I don't think that Rasial should be afk'able. And NM Arch-Glacor shouldn't be as rewarding. I am not sure about some of the bosses, that require a lot of work to get through, like HM Kerapac, high enr HM AG and Zammy. But I don't think that those changes are too bad.
Although I would think that content that requires a lot of attention should be more rewarding - so bosses that can't be afk'd should always be more profitable, compared to bosses that can be afk'd. If the effort is lower, the reward should be as well. The same should apply to training methods - but that is a whole other topic.

But what about treasure hunter, daily keys/xp, and all other sorts of "extra" XP?
Reducing the supply of items coming into the game may fix some issues, but for many players, there is no need to actually buy supplies, bc of proteans, dummies, stars and lamps, etc. I would really like to see this point addressed as well. Also things like invention should be "broader" to increase the demand for things, that you think should have a higher value. I really like the way you went with Flatpacks for Offcut-Comps, this should be applied more often and also to other "materials".
Maybe also add more GP sinks, that actually take out GP of the game for some "profit", if incoming GP is such a big problem

But overall, I hope that this will achieve what you want it to and it will help to make the game "healthier"

Is it already known, when the this goes live?

[west narwhal]

not yet, but it won't be monday

[cinder brook]

Thanks

[untold ibex]

Hey I’m killing hm vorkath for pet, with recent announcement I imagine the rares of vorkath the scale and invoke will crash in value. Will the chests I have currently be able to be opened for increase chance when update goes live

[next parcel]

What if there was a method to further separate resources gathered via Skilling from collected via PvM?

i.e. PvM resources offer slightly less XP per, but same tier - and at a cheap price that supply & demand will eventually set. Skilling resources remain the same.

Or, play around with the GE taxes here: PvM resources are taxed higher and Skilling resources remain the same.

Ultimately, with proteans the obvious solution and seemingly out of the question, the goal overall seems to be the desire to promote skilling for resources more, rather than AFK-grinding a boss all day for a much higher yield which in-turn lowers the demand and prices, yes?

I don't usually type this much and into a suggestion especially, but I wanna' see the team get this right, no matter how many steps it takes 😛

[little reef]

Jagex did a trial run of these changes in Mongolia, and it actually showed that the economy made a full rebound. The changes were overall a net positive, and increased player satisfaction on the topic of the economy.

@subtle imp has proof of this!

[subtle imp]

what are you talking about 🤨

[subtle imp]

that's clearly photoshopped

[little reef]

you're clearly photoshopped

[lost breach]

Lmao wtf. There's like less than 30k people playing rs3 on average k, you're telling me the Mongolian population has enuff players to make a dent in the economy . There's more Venezuelan bots than there are Mongolian citizens that actually have internet 🤣 gtfo

[vivid lotus]

just out of curiosity, but if you plan on making Dark Onyx Cores way more common from wildy events

as of now i'm still stuck with 8 of my 9 cores i can't make into Dark Facet's and can't give away either for those who can use them (on my HCIW) for main accounts i can just buy the material, but sadlly not everyone is a hardcore PVM'er that can get onyx's like trash

1. can't you at least make it easier to get onyx's then, instead of having to spend ~85 hours to gather enough onyx's to use them (barely any skilling ways to get onyx's and best skilling way is just about 85 hours for 10 onyx)

2. reduce the material cost to make the Dark Facet for personal use

3. add more skilling ways to get onyx's or make the core itself tradeable or being able to be dropped, instead of destroyed, so those who needs them can use them rather than them being stuck on accounts and just filling up the bank

so i'm just curious if i need to get another 50 Cores when the update go live, before i can make another Dark Facet, due to the hardship of getting onyx's without being a hardcore prof PVM'er

Cheers some complains from an HCIW that sucks hard at anything PVM

[little reef]

I understand the frustration, but do you struggle even with Har-Akan (Fight Kiln)

Doing Fight Kiln runs is a guaranteed 1 onyx per hour (2 if you're fast, but you said you're not into advanced PvM so 1 is a good baseline)

idk, I don't think Onyxes coming mostly from PvM is a bad thing. I can totally understand not wanting to do Raksha or Zammy for an item that benefits skilling, but something as relatively easy (compared to high-end PvM) as Fight Kiln I believe is no issue

[vivid lotus]

i do struggle with that one yes, to a point where it's more rewarding to spend 85 hours skilling for the onyx's rather than spend 50 hours trying to get onyx's from Har-Akan and having to skill to keep up supplies to keep dying/fighting

[little reef]

So I think this mostly boils down to how the devs want to handle skilling/PvM only accounts. There are items that benefit PvM, yet only come from skilling -- and items that come only from PvM that benefit skilling. It is one thing to not expect every played to be able to do high-end PvM (I think I'd call Raxi/Telos/Nex and harder "high-end"), but something like GWD2 or Fight Kiln I believe it is not unreasonable to expect players to have to do.

I don't think it's a good mentality to design drops based on a subsect of players that don't want to, for example, interact with PvM.

[vivid lotus]

it's not that i don't want to, but i'm simply just not good enough, i can do basis bosses like GWD1/mole/kbd/dks, i don't mind onyx's comming from combat, but at least make them able to be gotten from easier bosses than mainly high end bossing

[little reef]

what about onyx dust? tetracompasses spit out onyx dust

do arch a bit and grind the RedRum collections (or maybe it's the green goblin one... regardless) to trade in for tetracompass pieces

then do tetracompasses for onyx dust to transmute

surely that's less than 85 hours

The Gate of Elidnis also spits out onyx dustt

[vivid lotus]

i'm not sure it is, i guess i'll have to test it, but i don't expect it to be better, i did rrr3 on main from lvl 115-200M arch and my total tetras at 200M was 146, and i even bought the materials on there, so it do be significantly less on an iron/HC, and you'd need 20 successful tetras with dust per core

so just an estimate is that i'd need ~572 tetras to use up my cores, if we go by the dust drop rate in ancient caskets from tetras

[proper forge]

@turbid patio I have typed up my thoughts based on the blog post, feel free to ask any questions/clarifications!

Kerapac

The good:

• I really like the Jas page changes. This was a pain point for me before
• Changing the drop rates of the rares is a nice touch, especially for the Fractured Staff of Armadyl
• Most of the common loot changes seem alright

The bad:

• The nerfs to Inert Adrenaline Crystal, Primal Stone Spirits and Cannonballs (explained later)

**Suggestions: **

• Can we have hard mode drop 1-3 Jas pages?
• Changes to to Inert Adrenaline Crystal, Primal Stone Spirits and Cannonballs (explained later)

Arch Glacor

The good:

• I agree there are a ton of items here that need reducing/taking off Arch Glacor as it is the primary source of most of them
• Buff to the drop rates, especially for the Frozen Core is very welcome
• The changes to low mechanic Arch Glacor looks good, it has no right to be as good and farmed as it has ended up being
• More sources of cannonballs is good

The bad:

• Spirit weed drops should not be nerfed. These have held well in value and are still one of the more expensive seeds. Especially as they are very much in demand I feel the rarity of these seeds are not much of an issue. Yes I understand that 81% of them come from Arch Glacor and need nerfing somewhat from this boss. But this SHOULD be distributed to other bosses/monsters rather than taking an absolute axe to the overwhelming majority of the supply of an in demand resource.

Suggestions:

• Reduce Spirit Weeds Seeds somewhat but put them elsewhere (maybe reduce/remove currently cheap stone/wood spirits on other monsters/bosses and replace them with Spirit Weed seeds to balance out where they are dropped).
• While I agree the low mechanic Arch Glacor needed changes, I feel like the 4-5 mechanic multipliers changes are overly harsh. You can’t get the good big drops as you would get on hard mode, while playing at a fairly comparable level to low enrage hard mode. I would consider being kinder on the 4-5 enrage multipliers, otherwise I am unsure if there is too much point having normal mode.

Zamorakian Undercity

The good:

• Increase to Slivers
• Fixing unintentional bugs

The bad:

• This already felt like somewhat irrelevant content before, while I agree some salvage changes may be warranted, this feel like nerfing content that feels like it was already functionally dead

Suggestions:

• Maybe further increase the Sliver rates a little more and see if you can make the undercity easier/less annoying/shorter and see if this makes more people do it rather than just doing it once for the shortcut and never looking back

Zamorak

The good:

• Reduction in salvage
• Increase in Bow of the Last Guardian pieces

The bad:

• Yet another hammer swung at the seed drops.By removing the seeds here completely there goes 70% of the supply. I don’t mind reducing them here,, but please distribute them elsewhere in the game. It feels like with all of the changes being made, you may as well add back herb drops and we can forget about herb farming.

**Question: **

• You have said the drop rate is increased by 10% at engrages above 500%. Is this change going to be a ramping change with enrage or if you hit 501% enrage does the drop rate instantly buff itself by 10%?

**Tzkal-Zuk **

**The good: **

• Wave farming is gone, that always felt like a weird thing and I am glad it is gone

The bad:

• I feel at this point Sirenic Scales have been hit a bit too harshly.

Suggestions:

• I feel the core issue with Sirenic Scales is not being addressed. I understand the value of them is not that high currently, but I don’t see the supply as the issue. The core issue with Sirenic Scales is honestly that there is not much to do with them. Maybe if things that required you to use Ancient Scales had a slight reduction in the amount needed but you needed to use double the amount of Sirenic Scales needed relative to the amount of Ancient Scales removed. It would give them more of a use while reducing the absolutely ludicrous amount of Ancient Scales needed for some items (420 or more for one item).
• Can we have a buff to the amount of Ful pages we get now that the wave farming has been removed? Especially as it seems Zuk only drops 1 page at a time and uncomonly, so maybe the pages he drops could be buffed. I understand the price is not that high currently, but I feel the wave farming was responsible for that, not the drop rates itself. As an iron this would help out a ton.

Wilderness Flash Events

The good:

• The Core drop rate is being increased, I had given up on believing in the existence of this item at this point. So this is a good change.
• Reduction of the amount of GP/Magic Logs/ Ashes is good as I agree it was excessive before.
• Chance of getting magic thread is nice

The bad:

• Still too much injection of coins and other materials here for my liking.
• Removal of the wilderness weapons from here
• Bloodweed seed nerfs feel a bit bad. These are already very expensive at 18k each (you can consume many at once when farming) and they don’t seem to have that many sources currently.

**Suggestions: **

• Instead of splitting the Lucky charm into two, also give us the lucky charms from the other EDs and set the overall drop rate of each lucky charm to be the same as the Zamorakian Undercity charms were before. I don’t think many people buy these and they are not tradeable so I have no objection to just seeing more of these. Remove some of the salvage and skilling items to make room for this. (So basically 4x lucky charm drop rates, but split between all 4 ED’s)
• Don’t make any changes to the Bloodweed seeds.
• Add back the Wilderness weapons, these were quite rare and I don’t know if the weapons saw much use. Keep the changes to add them to Wilderness slayer as I like that change

Vorkath

**The good: **

• Increasing the unique rates is appreciated

**Suggestions: **

• Vorkath has a reputation for being a boss that is less enjoyable. It may be worth taking some feedback about what could make this boss feel a little more pleasant to kill.

**Rasial **

**The bad: **

• Seeds getting nerfed once again by a large margin. Please stop or distribute the seed drops elsewhere

Suggestions:

• The commons for Rasial is already not great and are getting further nerfs, especially as we have the mementos on there. Can we give mementos more usage or just remove them from Rasial and replace them with something better?
• If we are having nerfs to the common loot, can we at least slightly increase the rare droprate (nothing major, maybe to 1/600 instead of 1/640) to compensate for the already bad common loot getting hit even harder.

General comments:

• Seed changes I get that having certain bosses being 75-80+% of the source of one item does not feel great. The current changes seem to be flat out removing the majority of seed drops from the game as the sources of 70-80% are being removed. I get the re-balancing of this feels needed, but I would not count the current approach as balancing, more as brutal slaughter. If you want to make these changes to make certain seeds less reliant on certain bosses then please consider re-distributing them to other sources (especially Spirit Weed Seeds). It feels like the changes made in the past to remove herb drops and make us rely on the seeds is being undone here, as 70%+ of seed drops just flat out get removed from the game. Major changes here are needed in my opinion.

• Primal Stone Spirits are not an issue in my mind. These are still very expensive for what they are, and I don’t see that reducing the supply is needed at all here. In fact I would make the argument that we should see increases in the supply of these, if only in more sources than the current dropping them.

• Consider slotting in Rune Stone Spirits somewhere. These are currently worth almost 2k and are by far the second most expensive stone spirit in the game. It feels like these are due to be dropped more in general and if you are re-balancing drop tables then this feels like a great chance for it.

• Inert adrenaline crystal changes feel weird to me. They are very much in usage, and are a component of already decently expensive adrenaline potions. I don’t see these as much of an issue even though these are not that expensive. If you feel strongly about these then consider reducing the quantity rather than removing them. These can’t be made from skilling so I am worrying about how heavy handed completely removing them from so many places.

• Consider scrapping the changes you have made to decrease the amount of cannonball quantity of drops. These are already very expensive and in demand currently, so I don’t see them being an economic issue currently. I feel the issue with these is that even with the Morytania Leg effect making these by hand is still frustratingly unproductive, slow and resource costly. So if you are intent on reducing these drops then please buff how fast we can manually make cannonballs from skilling (e.g. at level 99 smithing we make 6x cannonballs a bar, 8x at 105 and 12x at 110 smithing).

@brittle oak Sorry if this is not the correct place for such a wall of text feedback

[iron snow]

Nah, nerfs are too generous - nerf further, including elite dungeons and other bosses too.

Tenax, it’s not the first update where they collect data for unknown reason, create content for everyone to enjoy then grabs up to pockets “oops, we are losing money from MTX part lately”, says they gonna address this but seeing how treasure hunter dropped almost 4b a day in gp says a lot that they are continuously focused on making profits and relentlessly exchanging it for making cluster in eco while shady promoting mtx further. Also these statistics for “other” or “general store” - did any of them stated which particular items deliver values from those sections? Most likely spirit shards and I won’t speculate much but I hope they know what they doing in high amounts at shops or between players.

[obsidian flare]

Feels like they didn't really listen to the feedback. I think the changes are too drastic. It is better to do smaller changes and only do big nerfs for the afk bosses. The nerfs of arch-glacor 0 and 1 mechanics are great, but why does 5-mechanic arch-glacor need to be nerfed that much too? Personally I think 5-mechanic ag is already a waste of time because it has bad loot for not being afk.

And about hardmode. I think they haven't thought this out how much impact small changes have. Increasing the chance of cores can potentially significantly decrease the amount of salvages from this boss because people complete the log faster. This boss isn't the best money maker already and a small nerf of salvages would be more appropriate to see what the effect is. (I really don't care much about bird nests and banite spirits btw) You can do more nerfs later if necessary. Such drastic nerfs really isn't smart.

[iron snow]

It is apparent besides roadmap some updates and patches are just forced for their own benefit. If it was player’s benefit - it would be balanced and nerfed step by step. Not overhaul in a few months period when content was released years ago.

[obsidian flare]

I believe the old article had gp into the game from general stores and out of the game from general stores. You can do the math.

[iron snow]

Proteans is just one of those bigger problems to be solved - why hasn’t this been addressed for so long?

[iron snow]

Yeah thats what I did - 4b a day over from 2023 january to 2025 may. Sudden decrease in mtx.

Minigames could use some buff instead of being afked or just left out there for runescore mostly.

Plenty of things that could totally stabilise eco or activities done, instead of pinpointed nerf to pvm.

[obsidian flare]

Also I don't think the hardmode arch-glacor nerf makes sense. They admit that the reason for their overall reduction is: the values are multiplied by the kill-streak number, resulting in overly-high quantities of drops. And then they proceed to nerf the base numbers. What they should be doing is nerf the kill-streak number. The salvage loot of arch-glacor is really not impressive at low killstreak. Where it gets out of hand is when you reach over 100 killstreak. Maybe change how it scales when you reach high kill-streak instead of doing these easy nerfs.

[slender charm]

This is fine it takes hours to get

Also give the game more utility ie ways to use coins

Therefore lots of coins ain’t bad, give a real decent useful way optionally to spend coins

Inflation is good higher taxes paid

[iron snow]

Gp to oddments then to boosts for skilling like pulse cores n etc. Daily limit is always there to not abuse those.

Or smth else entirely

[slender charm]

You wrote so much bits I’d criticise just to long Xd

Half of these nerfs mess with high end pvmers, especially if there’s nothing else to do in the game

[slender charm]

It takes hours to get to that level

[pine gull]

Is there any way to include non-tradeable drops into the mix? Seems this entire update was centered around the economy, as an ironman this only damages chances at getting useful drops.

Quite simply, if there is a balanced non-tradeable drop, the players can benefit from it & it won't do anything to impact the economy. [Similar to corrupted ore?]

Edit: You could also make a toggle to include these non-tradeables or not, so people who wouldn't benefit from them don't see them. [If one of these were to be rolled, it would simply not show in the loot table, not be replaced by something else].

[slender charm]

And can go in a second if you die

@brittle oak can I have a job

[obsidian flare]

Yes I know I have seen these salvage drops myself. They are ridiculous when you get there. I haven't done the 200 killstreak achiev yet, but I can imagine they are even more ridiculous there. Despite that the boss isn't the greatest money maker btw.

[covert igloo]

good writeup

rasial nerfs are the only ones i have an issue with, would love for them to actually distribute the seeds rather than just chop them

if they move those to other sources sure

[iron snow]

Mtx ftw!

[zinc bloom]

im genuinely curious what part of the player base asked for this update overall. sure the rare drop rate increase is great which i know we have been asking for but who actually asked them to completely nerf everything into the ground?

cuz far as i know nobody asked for that part of the update

[rapid stream]

generally game health updates aren't player requested. they are for the long term health benefit of the game

[zinc bloom]

i mean okay thats fine and all but this update didnt go over very well last time either so why try again with the same crap just worded differently and more fancy it makes 0 sense to do that. the player base wasnt happy the last time with the nerfs and we arent happy now

[rapid stream]

well of course the playerbase wouldn't be happy

nerfs aren't fun

[zinc bloom]

exactly then why do it

[rapid stream]

circle back to this

[zinc bloom]

their placing a band aid over a burst pipe

that never works

they should really be looking at adding more gold sinks and removing treasure hunter

this update honestly hurts the irons starting out and mid tier more than it does the mainscapers as well

like i get the full transparency thing this time around but it still does not fix the core issue of the players still arent happy about it. they should be instead looking at why the player base is upset about it instead of just forcing said update on us. id like to see them put more thought into the updates instead of just band aid fixing things. remove treasure hutner as a whole, add more gold sinks, talk the community more, add in better bosses, add in better and more fun things to do, add in ways to make old mini games relvant again. there is a whole heap of other things they should be addressing this update isnt it cheif

[burnt heart]

Speaking as someone with over 1k zamorakian lucky charms- they dont need to be given an increased drop rate from wildi events. Ive got too many of them and brawlers from opening very wild sacks. What would make them better is if they were given the option of a 1 way convert to the original dungeon lucky charms seeing as there 15k tokens and 10k tokens respectively

[zinc bloom]

this exactly

they really are going about this update the entire wrong way

[stiff harness]

While we enjoy the content as players, this is still a company-run game — and long-term health of both the game and the business matters. Game health updates reflect values that support sustainability, even when some players feel impacted

[zinc bloom]

like reading over everything they posted i sat there and thought: this screams you all are buying things too much and getting too much good things so we are going to nerf your fun

[stiff harness]

Fortunately, Jagex has shown a willingness to review feedback, as we’ve seen here

[zinc bloom]

yeah this is true i just hope that they actaully sit down and review this update instead of what they did which was fancily word the update in a way that is a copy paste of last times update they tried to push through

like if you look at this update compared to the last one which was cancelled due to negative feedback this update is a copy paste of that but just worded in fancy words and graphs mind you i saw they used a ge graph from the wikipedia page which is player run not jagex run and can be manipulated. using wikipedia graphs as refrence material isnt a good look

[rapid stream]

it wasn't canceled

[untold parrot]

Would love a lucky charm conversion to tokens tbh, even if half the value of buying them. Also don’t nerf brawlers from wildy events. It’s the main reason I do them 😏

[rapid stream]

the feedback was reviewed and they incorporated it into their design for this iteration of the game health update

[zinc bloom]

i mean i dont see that at all. i read through everything and it just seems like a copy paste of the last update just with bigger words and fancy graphs. id like to see them give us actual in house graphs not ones from wikipedia as refrence. using wikipedai graphs as refrence material is top tier laziness. instead they should show us in house grpahs from their own systems with viable data that the players can all see. tell us how many keys were used on average for the treausre hunter gp value they are claiming it brings in. show us the gp graphs from thier systems showing all these values. it would be nice to see more transparency on all of this instead of using a site run by players.

[rapid stream]

they provided data and you called them liars

i don't think there is anything they can post that will convince you from your current position

[obsidian flare]

They only incorporated what didn't conflict with what they wanted like significantly increasing the core chance at arch-glacor.

[rapid stream]

so we will have to respectfully agree to disagree

[zinc bloom]

its jsut a list of things there were no graphis from thier systems to back up said data. where is the refrence sheet for thier lists they gave us in the update? a real full transparency would be showing us the data they used as refrence instead of just listing a bunch of numbers.

[rapid stream]

^

[zinc bloom]

exactly other than that its just a copy paste of the last update they tried to push through

[obsidian flare]

Isn't the salvage nerf for hardmode arch-glacor more severe?

[untold parrot]

They provided statistics to back their stance. If one boss is 90% of the source of items coming into the game it needs to be shifted. It’s really that simple. This can happen in the form of a buff or nerf. It’s simple balancing.

You see this come into play many times when competitive games, such as league or overwatch, have a champion as ‘meta’. They will change the statistics of said heroes to make it more even across the board.

[zinc bloom]

the problem is they arent providing the full data. where are these refrence materials they used for this? what about showing us the keys used to bring in the treasure hunter gp. they arent giving us full transpaency on this update. i wouldnt mind the update if we had complete and full transparency but we dont have that here. there isnt any type of refrence material that the players can actually see and understand being provided in the notes we were given. and if you read the last time they did this or tried to it was the exact samething and exact same issues. they simply threw together big fancy numbers and graphs with 0 refrence material to back it up that the players can physically see. id like see them provide these refrence materials. just telling us that its this or that doesnt make it believable show us physical undenyable proof that these stats are legit because i for one cannot believe that some of the treasure hunter stats for gp are legit and real. show us the numbers from thier systems instead of using a wikipedia graph which can be manipulated since that site is player run. show us graphs from their actual systems.

[obsidian flare]

Also I would like to see the amount of gp coming into the game per boss and normal mode and hardmode. Specifically for arch-glacor 0 and 1 mechanics.

[zinc bloom]

exactly break it down that way using the data from their own systems

like its not that hard to be honest with your player base

i think alot of us would appreciate it if they were completely transperaent with this update because it is a huge change for the games economy so showing the player base every singel data point to make it so the entire player base understands the reasoning behind this update would be the best outcome

[untold parrot]

Take a step back here and look at how unreasonable your request is. You want them to open the lid and show you any and everything about the game statistic wise.

That simply just won’t happen.

They provided statistics based on the gp coming into the game for salvages, and the % of items coming into the game from bosses. Just because you doubt the data doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

[zinc bloom]

the problem is they did not. they did not provide any sembelance of data points that would make this update remotely understandable. like the other person said break it down for every single boss. show us the gp influx per mechanic on glacor. show us the gp influx from the other bosses. show us why this update is needed and why it is good for the overall health of the game because right now from where im standing its not a good update. there is no data points for treasure hunter. there is no data points breaking down the gp influx per mechanic at glacor. there is no gp break down per boss. all of these factor into why i disagree with this update. show the player base all of this. its not unreasonable to ask this especially when the update is such a huge impact on the overall economy of the game.

[obsidian flare]

They have numbers but they just don't give them to us. They said somewhere arch-glacor would come 5th place, but wouldn't that mean a huge number of salvageables from other sources? Just give us all numbers.

[untold parrot]

They drops for Glacor were shown. They also showed the mechanic multiplier. Doing simple math you can figure it out. They also showed what bosses use to drop vs what the nerfed drops will be. Doing math you can figure out the alch values.

Nerfs are never considered good updates, but are required for overall long term game health.

[flat sage]

Nerfs are never considered good updates, but are required for overall long term game health.
Honestly it's the FSOA nerf all over again.
People were yelling bloody murder when the numbers were announced, until it went live and folks understood their criticism had been exaggerated

[zinc bloom]

thats not the point though. all they did was say fancy words and such. without actual data points for the players to see thats all those are: fancy words. its not hard to show your player base that you genuinely care for your players by being completely and fully transparent using data points.

[untold parrot]

That being said. Spirit weed seeds need to be buffed in other drop tables if nerfed. Variety in the game shouldn’t bottleneck resources as much

[flat sage]

fwiw Mod Breezy just addressed this on reddit:

(...)
Based on the feedback so far we've already got plans to add a couple more sources of Spirit Weed seeds to some mobs as options for farming them for players that need them, but at the same time doesn't pour massive influxes of them into game as players chase rare drops. There's also some other changes as well like slightly increasing the cannonballs from Kerapac.

[untold parrot]

Let’s gooooooo

Nerf the rest of it! 😂

[covert igloo]

w cannonballs are coming back

[vague locust]

fsoa still isnt best in slot xD trash update that made it hit harder.

[flat sage]

just to avoid any misunderstandings, I'm not referring to the update that happened earlier this month but to the June 2023 update

[zinc bloom]

i just hope they postpone this update until they can be fully transparent with us and give us the data points on everything they listed as well as the gp influx from other bosses along side teh total boss kills at each boss from the players. its not hard to be honest with a player base.

[vague locust]

for ever 1 nerf, they should do 1 buff. sucks getting nerfs that hurt and were just supposed to smile and say ty.

[vague locust]

ahhh ok, understood 🙂

[sudden storm]

The changes to common drop tables is accompanied by increases in drop chance and amount of various rare and unique drop table items

[vague locust]

way more nerfs than buffs. have you read the blog?

[obsidian flare]

This is nice for log but won't necessarily increase profit from those bosses.

[vague locust]

every boss should have a drop by rate or blm, to counter these nerfs. it is pointless to do some of these bosses for common now. if youre going to be 300 kills over drop rate at a boss, you deserve a damn drop. adding 10% chance for bolg is nice, but does that mean -2.5% chance on havoc pieces? because i highly doubt they nerfed codex of lost knowledge drop, which by their own charts needs to be revived. theres a reason they arent replying to posts anymore.

[iron snow]

Yes yes, let’s make drops dropped from bosses 1/10k with no bad luck mitigation to make grind worth while, too many items, too many gp… Casual cries when they screw up with their own releases at the expense of players. How about we just reset eco fully, and start off as fresh accounts altogether? That might be good for long term game health too.

[zinc bloom]

they stopped replying to posts?

[vague locust]

havent seen a reply since late yesterday on here.

[iron snow]

Just nerf gwd2 and rest of pvm more

Why bother stopping at gwd3

[zinc bloom]

i mean id like to see them completely gut and get rid of osrs and rs3 and give us rs4 using wasd movement and battle mechanics similar to ff14 but its a pipe dream at this point

[iron snow]

Yup me too

[untold parrot]

Which boss is 1/10k for a drop?

[vague locust]

simple: frozen core.

[iron snow]

Re-read that, I wrote “let’s make”, not that there is any specific.

[iron snow]

This.

[obsidian flare]

I think zamorak will remain good gp because bolg is still good, but it will have more rng. I am more concerned about arch-glacor because it doesn't give a meta t95 weapon. It will probably be garbage gp after the update.

[vague locust]

2k zammy at 5 min kills will be great money still yes. but destroying zammys loot when the avergae player cant do a 500% or if they can, its a 7-8 min kills is not okay. they update bolg drop rate but didnt say what they nerfed on the back end.

[iron snow]

In my eyes, these nerfs won’t even effect players who are either 10+ years playing this or has high pvm skill to make up for the nerfed drops, by doing high enrages anyways. Anyone below these two factors will suffer in a way that they might quit just from unnecessary updates made up by Jagex, again, losing grip from MTX…

Statistics showed already, check treasure hunter section from table in gp making.

They losing profits, thats why it is invoked.

[vague locust]

at this point just let me watch a 30 second ad so i have have 30% drop rate increase, cuz i see that coming next.

[iron snow]

Dont worry, pretty sure thats coming in near future too if you wont buy premier

[vague locust]

i wont spend a penny on this game till they address drop rate issues and if this new boss is a fail or not.

[untold parrot]

You guys are getting way off topic with all the speculations. It’s hard to even carry on a discussion when you bring up all the farfetched hypotheticals.

[vague locust]

everything is hypothetical till it happens.

[iron snow]

What makes you think these nerfs won’t even effect players who arent in the top league of 1-10% pvmers (masters or gm ca accomplishers) ? You literally take whats left for them to enjoy… I do hope that they see change once people do start quitting after this might turn this around and work on actual problem such as proteans and TH keys which gives insane amount of ways to boost your skilling as is. Nop, gp inflation is at fault… my gawd… xD

All cause Jagex dont like afk content to be left. Why not remove it as whole from every aspect ing including skilling?

But I guess you right on one thing - hard to speculate a lot - future will show.

[vague locust]

they said 2500 people a day die at zammy: so how many billion a month in deaths costs? zammy prints money but zammy takes a lot of money. they are making it so bosses can only be done at high enrage or you wont make decent money. rcing necro runes will be more money than zammy now. which is pathetic. they are bending the knee to skilling while killing pvm again.

[iron snow]

Personally after how mods respond and how they treat surveys - shows they don’t care at all. They will keep pumping new content to overshadow actual changes that screw game over for good. What was once good game now dying step by step.

[obsidian flare]

I have no issues with the afk boss nerfs, but they went way beyond that.

[iron snow]

They don’t listen whatsoever

[iron snow]

Exactly why I am typing here since yday. Mod was there yday and he hasn’t responded between lines.

[vague locust]

after watching the pvp stream and the mod didnt know the animation for reflect, it showed how much they know and play the game. this just a job and nothing more.

[iron snow]

Corporate business, not game

[zinc bloom]

i wouldnt mind this update if they were just honest with us about why its needed. i think its a good idea however what i disagree with is the manipulation as to why its a good update and not providing complete and full transparency on everything. sure it would be a lot more work for the devs to provide us all those data points and break them down but the return they get would be player trust and players seeing they actually care.

[iron snow]

Besides they stated clearly - its cancelled in reddit I believe? Or where it was

Plot twist, cancel was act. So ads will come too then

[vague locust]

they will say "the blog post would be to long". thats there escape.

[vague locust]

nerfing drops while not address dry streaks is pretty disgusting and sick.

[iron snow]

Noticed how croesus left untouched?

For this ordeal

[vague locust]

notice how data for shard of gen isnt on rs ge page?

almost like they are hiding it

[flat sage]

they never said the nerfs were cancelled, simply postponed

I don't know where players suddenly got the cancelled idea from

[iron snow]

What sort of postpone is this

Sick leave of certain dev?

[vague locust]

lmao they gave us a few weeks to farm AG for charms. we should be grateful xD

[iron snow]

Yeah

P much that

[vague locust]

tbh i do apperciate the few weeks for that. much love on that one. ❤️

[zinc bloom]

at that point what little trust and faith that the players have will fade. this update is the point at which they either renew thier players faith or trust or shatter it to pieces

[vague locust]

yea breezy said that it would take to much space, easy way out of course. they promise transparency but avoid it at all costs. disgusting

[iron snow]

Not quitting but deffo dropping idea to buy premier for next year

[obsidian flare]

I was hoping for a rework of the loot tables, not a simple nerf. I wasn't expecting it from jagex though. If you think arch-glacor will be good gp after the update you are dreaming.

[iron snow]

Ag were never good money you have to camp it forever to make something out of it with no mechs

[vague locust]

yea i just buy bonds with gp. i have 0 issue spending money if i feel the game is going in the right direction but it feels like osrs has a way way better team than we do.

[iron snow]

Just some supplies for skilling

Now its pure thing of u either break rares table or u losing money doing it

Just like zamorak tbf

[iron snow]

It seems so.

[vague locust]

bro my account is over drop rate on average at zammy, so im already shafted there and now they wanna super shaft me. love it

[iron snow]

Haha lucky you man

[vague locust]

i know someone else with 400 kc hm nk and 1 shard too, im sure they agree they are shafted on drop rate as well.

[iron snow]

I suppose I will let things pan out, not like few people’s opinion matter in this game.

[vague locust]

unless your an iron or skiller, they could careless what you say.

[molten sequoia]

Looking at this, from an ironman perspective, I feel stabbed in the back. Once again, it shows they don't care about us. Making certain grinds even longer, some items nearly impossible to get (sirenic scale, for example) and why the alchables, I mean I get it, but they're my ONLY source of coins.

Then, when talking about the elephant in the room. Treasure Hunter, the post goes over it as if it's not a massive part of the problem. "Ooh, let's lowever alchables, but leave the coin prizes in TH, cuz we need ppl to buy spins", "Ooh, lets lower the amount of skilling supplies, but leave the proteans and lamps in TH, cuz we need ppl to buy spins"... Do you want me to continue?

I'm just done+... Until you remove the impact TH (and bonds) has on the economy, I just know, this will change nothing and only make a lot of irons quit.

[iron snow]

Main concern over this was about irons who literally are the quarter stone for rs3 keep kicking as they’re limited to certain game mode. But as you said they don’t give a bucket of camel dung over you or people who didn’t farmed enough gp from alchs.

Pleasing old players was a thing in mmo.

[flat sage]

"Ooh, let's lowever alchables, but leave the coin prizes in TH, cuz we need ppl to buy spins",
While TH is a problem for coins, it only accounts for a total of 3.47% of GP entering the game each month
Compare that to alchs being 19x as much.
It's a matter of addressing one problem before it gets worse, and regardless of which side of the debate you're on you can't deny there are a ton of alchables entering the game

[molten sequoia]

the debate is pointless either way, they're not going to change anything about TH. There should be a column with amount of $$$ TH gives them each day. I'm just tired of it all

[iron snow]

Whenever you release content in game, first priority should be monitor drop tables balance if they sought out this was a big problem at 2023 already, not sit there and try to hypothetically guess on what is going to happen in two years. Simply put, TH keys brought are from paid money (naming profit for jagex in pockets) while alchs - were not issue since eoc. Not once. Somehow now of all times it raised to critical levels where user must not have possibility to access such amounts per day. Do you get how delulu that sounds on jagex end when they let it run wild but somehow now cuts - its like getting raise in salary every year and now, all of a sudden since company doesn’t make profit - you are bound to get lower salary. This is just used as example not saying it’s reality everywhere but that’s how it works with Jagex games. With OSRS they once tried this too but oh well.

[obsidian flare]

That is still 3.47% too much and everything adds up.

[iron snow]

If you dont know where to spend money from alchables - then consider yourself buying dyes and painting every item possible… or idk max perk every item with tools 3-4x to have all perks at any given time or even buy phats/santas - plenty of things to do cause if u that desperate to utilize gp and have 0 clue what to do - give to those who know lol.

I don’t see in any way how this update in long term can be healthy if you take number one cash flow from players and decrease it in half.

[subtle imp]

i'm sure they're perfectly aware of treasure hunter, especially after this round of feedback, but it does feel maybe slightly tonedeaf to talk about game health and then not mention the ruinous consequences proteans and dummies and other free xp has

its okay that they're not ready to talk about it, but just a small acknowledgement that is it indeed an issue they're tinkering with would go a long way

[vague locust]

if they just fixed rare drop rates so people arent going on crazy dry streaks, it would be a lot smoother of an update. i wouldnt mind less loot if that meant i knew i was for sure getting a good drop. but instead they want us to farm shit loot and get shafted by drop rates that arent on par with what they said they should be. fix the damn drop rates.

[obsidian flare]

Also not unrelated because removing proteans gives them more room to put valuable resources that aren't alchables in the loot tables.

[vague locust]

instead of making new invention comps or updating invention comp tables, they nerfed the loot to restore the price. they could have updated invention comp tables and soak up supply over night.

[iron snow]

Sounds like an idea but hey who listens xd

[vague locust]

the amount of time they spent nerfing, they could have put to better use.

[subtle imp]

they are mainly making supply side changes right now, yes

demand comes later

like, its super obvious that 93% of a resource shouldn't come from one boss

especially when that one boss pushes the item's value to nothing

[vague locust]

i get nerfing AG loot when its not full mechs. but adjust invention tables along side that would be way more effective than just nerfing loot.

[iron snow]

While I do agree with this point made - how come they never saw it coming? They monitored and have statistics from back 2023 january, who was upholding since then?

Also what Ryan said.

[subtle imp]

i don't know, but arguing that they're not allowed to course-correct the supply after a bad update would be worse

[obsidian flare]

They could have nerfed bird nests and banite spirits ages ago and nobody would complain. This update is more about salavageables.

[iron snow]

We can argue all we want - discussions we make has almost zero influence over their decision making and this update showed precisely why surveys makes no sense to fill.

As gnomie guy said, they postponed with intent that it MIGHT come in future but seeing how people went straight to farming AG for charms - postpone is lifted and let’s do it asap. In survey people were more interested in MTX and TH review and what updates they going to make about it. That did not lasted.

[subtle imp]

i disagree

[vague locust]

lets be honest who even picks up birds nest when they drop........

[iron snow]

Yesterday mod did not even responded nor he listened to other side which was not satisfied with updates upcoming - resume was as harsh as updates can be it must happen regardless of what players say.

[obsidian flare]

Also I wonder by how much those numbers of May got inflated because more people did these bosses.

[vague locust]

exactly

[iron snow]

Sure, I do not mind - disagree but Jagex shows with actions that players opinion won’t matter. Especially if its minority.

[vague locust]

pretty crazy rcing will be more hourly money than than bosses they nerfed

unless you speeding running 2k zammy

[iron snow]

Dont forget afking vindicta

Most afked boss yet to receive nerf lmao

[rapid stream]

not responding doesn't mean that they aren't listening

in fact, it is the opposite

[iron snow]

They would respond then lol

[rapid stream]

giving y'all the space to speak your minds and not have to feel like you have to debate is the move

[iron snow]

Which they didnt do yday

Breezy was it? Yeah he was talking with others I didnt got any reply inbetween from him.

[rapid stream]

while you might have appreciated a response to your points, it wouldn't be the right move. letting everyone speak their minds, give their feedback, and express their feelings on the change is the more successful way in gathering legitimate feedback

this isn't their first rodeo

[vague locust]

if i was them i wouldnt reply either, this update is hated xD

[iron snow]

Well, I do hope this rodeo lasts long. Cause in my eyes this update for me at least put nail in coffin for sure to enjoy pvm anymore.

[rapid stream]

you enjoy pvm for the common drops?

[iron snow]

The bosses that are going to be changed that is.

Why not? Not like I overfarm them to a breaking point

[rapid stream]

was a legit question. i either do it for the challenge or for the pet

[iron snow]

An hour or two a week is not game breaking

[vague locust]

i enjoy pvm when drop rates are on point and im not 4x over drop rate.

[rapid stream]

yeah same

[iron snow]

So yes, I do enjoy it for commons

Since rares are somewhat surprise type to expect precisely on drop rate

Not every drop you get is on drop rate anyways

[vague locust]

i know to many people who are 1 shard at hm nak and over 400kc. thats an issue

[iron snow]

Yup

[rapid stream]

i like the general trend towards blm for some bosses

and i do hope it is explored more for all bosses

[iron snow]

So commons make up for it till then

[vague locust]

yea just gives us a lil help on dry streaks 😦

[rapid stream]

i don't really prefer the system that they are currently using. i like how WoW does it with dinar tokens

but it is at least a step in the right direction

[vague locust]

im 300+ kc hm kera and no hm rare drop -_-

[rapid stream]

F

[obsidian flare]

currency to buy endgame gear?

[rapid stream]

ish

so the core idea of a more visible representation of that you are making progress

rather than the numerator/denominator being changed

and not really seeing it

RS is very much an economy based game so buying stuff like that isn't really feasible without tanking drop prices

and the only way i can really see it working is if the token traded in for the drop makes the drop untradeable

[obsidian flare]

Yea these games have untradable gear

[iron snow]

If there were no proteans to begin with - supplies might have purpose

[rapid stream]

which would be nice for ironman

maybe not for fellers who want to sell it, but they can still do that by hopefully getting the drops

[iron snow]

Wanna recall who’s video was it but forgot - one of content creators did mention that as a thing about this topic

[rapid stream]

there are quite of few vids out there about it

[iron snow]

Will there be any changes to other bosses too? Like Vindicta and etc.? Or are these bosses currently in the scope?

[reef socket]

I do it for the money

https://tenor.com/view/sseth-ssethtzeentach-vibe-check-grab-gif-20363655

[vague locust]

breezy said they might look at other bosses later lol, which means in a few years.

[rapid stream]

All that money and still bad fashionscape smh 🤪

[reef socket]

😃

https://tenor.com/view/goodtobeking-theking-gif-18473067

[rapid stream]

😂

[iron snow]

https://tenor.com/view/quite-the-charmer-kriti-kharbanda-aarfa-khan-taish-काफीआकर्षकहै-gif-18959894

[obsidian flare]

Yes, if bosses have garbage common drops and you aren't getting any uniques, it feels like you are wasting your time. In particular without blm you aren't making any progress.

[vague locust]

^ this is so spot on.

[covert igloo]

rs is the only game i know where you can just buy your way to bis weapons and armour

in every other mmo its always untradeable for a reason

its so its earned by the player

[iron snow]

Agree

[mellow pendant]

there's balance to be had here.

when corp beast released his rares were... extremely rare.
his commons on the other hand were extremely generous. onyx bolts. 2k cballs. big chunks of d'hides. etc

when you make a boss have a cracked common table and a cracked rare table you have situations where the uniques end up oversupplied and worth literally nothing and the boss is now propped up on whatever op commons it provides or you have the alternative where the commons being terrible deter people from farming a boss for commons and the EV is all in the uniques.

ToA in osrs you spend 25 minutes running a raid for an EV of 50K from common loot. most of the time being some vials of coconut milk and gold bars.

while the rares are some of the most expensive items in the game.

[iron snow]

So, idea is to make boss content like that everywhere so people would grind like in 2005 for their gear? Or am I not getting something…?

Because commons are too rewarding and crashing eco

[mellow pendant]

no, the idea is you can't have the best of both worlds + an afk boss and expect it to be healthy in the long run and maintain the real market value of your gp

[iron snow]

Ah

[mellow pendant]

commons are not the answer to making you want to do a boss

they can be, but that should not be the main deciding factor why you are there imo

zulrah went through this in osrs too. it dropped bis range weapon, it dropped enough endgame supplies to basically make every skilling method in the game at top end just be irrelevant because of the commons. they had to nerf the drop table like 6 times or something to eventually get it into a place where it didn't cannibilise the entire game

[balmy moon]

The commons should depent on much effort you put in. In GWD1 getting bad common loot isnt so bad because you kill them in 15 seconds

[mellow pendant]

EGWD in rs3 was also designed to just circumvent a lot of the other in game content too it seems. which takes away from the world.

gwd1 & 2 had big barriers to entry, EGWD can be walked in on a fresh account

[mellow pendant]

even back in the day getting bad commons from gwd was fine, it was mostly food and potions to extend trips

maybe 200k in gp and a couple seeds

[iron snow]

The issue is, when zulrah came out and had this overwhelming supply aspect going on, it didn’t took many years later to nerf it, once they realised how inflated it can get. EGWD on other hand, ran wild for too long for it to have drastic change just now, as crap ton of items are already ing, they won’t just delete them lol. That’s why I called this update bs overall since just lowering won’t stop already existing bulk amounts to travel around.

[balmy moon]

Yeah true, too many cocratice eggs in peoples bank to ever recover the price of that item

for example

[mellow pendant]

the mentality of the team could have been in a completely different position while egwd was in design too, i agree it's been left way too long. but it's a neverending cycle, if it doesn't get nipped in the bud at some point it will never recover

right now the nerfs seemd like a good first step, if the eco still suffers it might be time to start doing what osrs does for rare items but for commons like cockatrice eggs/whatever if they can't naturally get them to recover

osrs will buy rare items from the GE with tax and delete them to keep the supply/demand stable

[balmy moon]

but that is of big items

I guess buying 10m red spider eggs and deleting them could help i guess

I just looked up and red spider eggs are 166g lol i remember them at 3k each

[mellow pendant]

yeah, like invention used to cover a lot of the commons pretty well and it helped for a long time, it still props up certain rares too. it's either invention 2 or forced choking of certain things

[fervent pilot]

this should do wonders for bond prices and TH - proteans during dxp weekends.

[lean bramble]

So, if you are going to add all these game-breaking changes. I guess that means you are going to cut down on MTX, and you are going to add bad luck mitigation, right, Jagex?

I mean, you all added the gas tax and said that it is going to fix all inflation? I guess you lied to us then, too.

[covert igloo]

these nerfs are not game breaking, they are good for the most part

[fervent pilot]

which department do you work in? asking for a friend

tbh though, I don't care about the nerfs at all other than it's going to make getting charms for 120 summoning take roughly twice as long

[crisp steeple]

idk what math you're doing but you'd need to do like 80 tetras based on this

[crisp steeple]

i been asking for years :v)

[vast meteor]

That’s a hot take 😬 I quite like rs movement and combat

That’s what dragonwilds is for though, which is a fantastic game imo

[crisp steeple]

zulrah was nerfed twice. once 2 weeks after release and again 2 years later

[mellow pendant]

ckeys were an effective nerf too, was best method

still, it's the most nerfed boss in osrs because of how op it was

might be revs that competes/outdoes it

[crisp steeple]

woo!

[mellow pendant]

the nests were huge too btw

the only source was woodcutting or giant mole

crystal seeds inadvertently too, believe it or not

they seem very minor but it legit choked out the other suppy routes in some cases that only had 1/2 methods. zulrah was like a one stop shop to bypass a big portion of content

[crisp steeple]

was disappointed to wake up today and see people still thinking that the numbers on TH gold influx are daily and not monthly

[vast meteor]

These?

They’re average daily added during the month of may

Invention machines average daily added gold being 111B is immense

[mellow pendant]

yeah i hate to say it because i dislike TH immensely but the 4.6% from TH is a drop in the water compared to nearly 66% of it coming from combined alchemy lol

[vast meteor]

Alchemy in general causes an unbelievable amount of inflation kinda wild… but they also remove items from the game so it’s a bit more interesting compared to TH or pickpocketing

There’s a bit of a dichotomy in regards to alch because the tradeoff is a control in the supply of other items like gems, salvage, and staves

Or you could look at it as an increase in demand of items from players who exclusively alch them and wouldn’t want to purchase them otherwise

But if bosses didn’t insert a huge supply of these items like they have been doing, you wouldn’t necessarily need the alch machines to regulate that supply in the first place- because the supply would be regulated by the drop table instead. And then you could modify or remove the alch machines/cleaners to reduce inflation

Also less supply means price goes up, so you won’t make less profit on these drops after the market stabilises. It’ll equalise back somewhere close to what it was before imo

[covert igloo]

i dont think the problem is the high alch spell, but the amount of high value alchables

[vast meteor]

So in that regard it’s not really a profit nerf as much as a supply nerf

[vast meteor]

I agree

Supply nerf

[covert igloo]

yeppers

the nerfs incoming are good for the most part

[vast meteor]

I see it that way as well

[covert igloo]

i would like tho for the seed drops that are getting nerfed to rather get distributed over high level slayer mobs with bad droptablers

*droptables

[vast meteor]

On the other hand, the supply increase of rare drops could cause the price on those to drop- for example a 40% increase in drop rate of vorkath could theoretically cause a 40% decrease in the price of it

[crisp steeple]

That's probably what they're trying to accomplish

Only reason to mess with the supply side of non-alchs is to influence their trade value

[mental citrus]

Thank god they were way too overpriced. This was necessary. Imagine trying to afford that 600m item making 3m an hour fishing blue blubber.(3m per hour.) Which is ironic because Dark Facet of Grace feels like its a skilling item which is earned though combat. The unaffordablity of this game feels like a joke. Inflation drives up the value, new players get shafted with sky high prices for all items, and it basically kills off this games chance to grow, instead Runescape would be in a constant state of decay. This is primarily due to the fact that new players aren't tied down to your game. (The sunken cost fallacy doesn't tie them down to your game like your nostalgia players.) If they have to compare your online game to the others chances are they will choose the one which gives them more dopamine.

[vast meteor]

Like the 2% decrease in wen scripture and leng artifacts seems to only be there to accommodate for other changes in common items

[somber depot]

Wildy event nerfs seem pretty harsh, especially for irons.
I always look forwards to the special events since they're so lucrative, but now I don't know if i'll even bother to do them.

Core chance increase is cool, but not that useful imo.

I think maybe consider adding some untradable, or content enhancing rewards to wildy events (such as spirits)
If you're going to remove raw GP and alchables.

[mellow pendant]

magic logs are too abundant, can get them elsewhere just as easy. i have 35k of them sat in my bank doing nothing

salvage shouldn't be on their table

wyvern bones were nice but probably supplied the entire eco of super prayer

if you want gp on iron go do spiritual mages for 8m/hr
also coming from an iron

the only reason i even go to wfe is core chance and t87 chance

[vast meteor]

Yeah I agree, I don’t think big group activities should be nerfed for the sake of inflation. They pull the community together and damage to the economy is worth it in this case

[mellow pendant]

salvage should 100% be globally nerfed

[somber depot]

Sure I can agree with most of that, nerfing the infernal ashes doesn't really make sense though, I don't think the price of those is relevant.
Its a nice way to get some okayish prayer on iron.
Nerfing those numbers as well feels a bit spiteful, if anything I would buff the number not nerf it.

[mellow pendant]

the ashes most likely fall into the same category as wyvern bones

it's unfortunate but idk if having things like a chopping and burning a tree being the best way to get inf ashes is good

purely as an iron? sure i want it

[vast meteor]

Given most of the player base prefers skilling I can’t imagine the supply inflation from GOTE Seren spirits

[mellow pendant]

nothing compared to the 19m a day from AG thats for sure

it's so hard for me to speak from an eco/game health stance as an iron because "less friction = good" for me lmao

[crisp steeple]

Unaffordability? Gear has literally never been more accessible. It used to take hundreds of hours to afford an endgame weapon. Now you can get it done in like 10

[austere tusk]

Compromise make it 50

[somber depot]

Especially since wildy flash events are one of the few big social activities left in rs3, I think keeping them relevant is in the best interest for game health.

I don't really care what the specific rewards from wildy events are, but as long as they remain somewhat relevant.

I understand increased core chance for mains could be enough to keep them doing it, but please also consider ironmen.
And "lol you limit yourself" is not a valid arguement, especially considering ironman is an official gamemode, and a decent chunk of the playerbase.

[mellow pendant]

yeah for the early prayer i do agree with you there. i think i supplemented most of mine to 70~ with baby d bones and um tome 2 lol

[mellow pendant]

core being anywhere around 400m~ even after the 50% increase is gonna keep wfe's relevant for a long time

[somber depot]

Yeah playing GIM its helped a lot through the early levels.

[mellow pendant]

considering it's the only source

[somber depot]

and I wouldnt say it was op at all either since early I could only do evil tree

[austere tusk]

Isn't the bigger deal also getting the alchemical onyx? Personally I feel like that's the bigger part of the journey for those items. The core is like an endgame bonus

[mellow pendant]

alch onyx is super easy tbh

[austere tusk]

I mean it is

[mellow pendant]

you can farm, forts for one in a few hrs with med

[austere tusk]

But think about Ironman

The overall grind

[mellow pendant]

even as iron

whats hard

i have 50 onyx in my bank

[somber depot]

50 forts isnt much tbh, especially with easy clues

[austere tusk]

Getting to that level of invention can take some time

Getting invention in the first place

[mellow pendant]

you can get invention to 100+ in 2 days at vyres

from like 60

probably faster at abyss

the core really is the limiting factor

quest cape even gives you a free alch onyx -7~ comps 👀

[austere tusk]

Does it?

[mellow pendant]

yeah because you get the dice which is a free fort

[austere tusk]

Oh right

The dice

[mellow pendant]

i had about 40 forts from 007s and quests by the time i was looking at gote, if you hate quests i can see it being a bit more of an adventure

[mental citrus]

10*3m per hour fishing blue blubber=30mill. https://runescape.wiki/w/Dark_Facet_of_Luck 620,837,836/3,000,000=206.945945333. (its 206 hours of your life if you decide to skill.) Its affordable if you do combat, not skilling. Zammy gets you 100m per hour. one hour of zammy=100/3(one hour of blubber)=33.3333 so after 33 hours of fishing you can match 1 hour of zammy. Skilling feels pointless. Thank god these weapons are as affordable as you said.

[mellow pendant]

that's like 6 hours of farming infinity boots at mage training arena with 52 magic

[austere tusk]

Anyways I think the people coping and sneeding are overreacting because it all looks negative but this is a pill that must be swallowed to not let the inflation run away on us more than it has. I think they should even consider maybe slightly more tariffs on GE if not also having an item black hole like they have in osrs if the supply is a concern too. Not sure what that looks like here but they did mention supply

[crisp steeple]

You're highlighting one of the literal worst moneymaking options in game

[mellow pendant]

ahaha, it's good because none of yall wanna face it 😛

[austere tusk]

I should get my set

I was gonna do it in osrs

[somber depot]

There are legitimate concerns, but yes there is also doomposting and over-reactions

[austere tusk]

Yeah

Like it's 30/70 valid concerns and doomposting

Like the spirit weed

[mellow pendant]

I think they should even consider maybe slightly more tariffs on GE if not also having an item black hole like they have in osrs if the supply is a concern too is a good point too, but i don't think it needs to be on rare items

[austere tusk]

But we heard they're looking at slayer

[mellow pendant]

commons need looked at

[somber depot]

the runescape reddit is always going to have doomposting about everything though

[austere tusk]

Pushing some spirit seeds to slayer would be good

[crisp steeple]

grinding sandstone is 30m/hr

https://runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Making_extra_fine_sand_with_Telekinetic_Grind

[austere tusk]

Yeah like honestly if they just dumpster crushed nests it'd be funny

There are far too many

Blues and brews are such because they're so easy to acquire and I mean they are good because no adrenaline loss

[mental citrus]

resell time on that's a nightmare

[crisp steeple]

blood runes are at least 50m/hr

[austere tusk]

But it's like blubs take reasonable enough investment because it's a gathering skill

It's just time

Sara brews are like so nothing to get too and it never sat right with me. I knew AG injected nests and talismans and such but I didn't know it was what 95% of nests?

[crisp steeple]

croesus is still 50m/hr

gate is still 50m/hr

[austere tusk]

I think those bosses as 50m is fair. Like it sounds like a lot but I dunno

I like them

Even if they become extremely autopilot (I actually like when someone messes up at croe because it makes me have to think)

[crisp steeple]

yeah my point is that saying it takes forever to get endgame gear because you're trying to get it done fishing blubbers

is beyond dumb

do literally anything else and it'll be 10x faster

[austere tusk]

Sure if you don't boss your methods are probably worse

[mellow pendant]

fishing for gp in rs has always been a fools errand

fishing sharks anyone?

[austere tusk]

It's literally as afk as you can probably get next to mining now because they don't deplete

Is it good? No.

It's afk

[crisp steeple]

fishing at the croesus front with the outfit set to consume algae is twice as much gp/hr

why do we care about whether or not full afk skilling can get endgame gear in a timely manner

[austere tusk]

It probably shouldn't. I mean that is in the design philosophy of mining itself now (I mean ignore spirits and Per+, those are investments of resources anyways). You can fully afk mining but it's slower because of stamina vs clicking every so often to get ore faster.

I'm making a bad comparison but I mean it kinda does show that active play is supposed to be rewarded

And bosses being the big bucks, even Skilling ones, is sorta how it just is

It's a boss. It's supposed to be a big task for big pay

[mellow pendant]

it's almost like people enjoy being rewarded for not playing the game 😉

[crisp steeple]

full afk skilling should be the least rewarding activity in the entire game. thank goodness it is!

sorta

[austere tusk]

I mean you get stuff still

[mellow pendant]

i wish more methods like bgh existed and were the meta for skilling monyemaking

[austere tusk]

Fishing literally is afk besides when a node dies

Yeah I love bgh

And it's got decent payoff for what it is

[crisp steeple]

it's great content tbh

[mellow pendant]

perm fishing frenzy

[austere tusk]

I kinda like jellyfish a bit but it's just regular fishing nodes but different

Instead of being stopped by it moving you get stunned