Fletching Retier | Gamejam

[bold wagon]

sights as a sidegrade is a cool idea, but i dunno what that would entail

the +5 -5 dmg/acc from earlier i didn't like

here's my initial thought

sights makes snipe go from a 160-210 range to 225-275, but it takes a tick longer, meaning you can't cancel it early

dps is the same as if you were to cancel it, but the sight lets you get the same dps in a much more noob friendly way, which could be a valuable aspect of these basic wooden bows

[dapper vapor]

that feels like the opposite direction. Maybe the ability should just be stronger/not canceled by default and then there's an unlock for higher end technical people to fire it off earlier for optimal building

[hallow spoke]

"using snipe as your first hit is guaranteed to crit"

[sacred blade]

sounds like something that should be a difference between bows and crossbows rather than specifically shortbows and longbows

[bold wagon]

this is more of a straight upgrade than a sidegrade

like the point is to make the sight completely optional

/personal preference

and also have the thing it does be flavorful of a sight

doesn't necessarily need to involve the snipe ability, but it felt apt to me

[vestal parrot]

i think another point to compare is the timeline

sights were created at a point in time where there weren't any other better ranged weapons - unless i am mistaken

if you're to compare it with the options we have now, sights would be even less useful, given that you'd just outlevel it soon

[low girder]

Better ranged weapons existed - the Dark bow already outclassed the Magic longbow, and shortbows and crossbows were more popular than longbows in general.

Sights served the purpose of attempting to give older weapons a niche use in the then-current meta.

I wonder if sights were to be kept, it'd be better to do move them to different weapons and attempt someting similiar.

[dapper vapor]

Sighted magic bow was the highest accuracy ranged weapon at the time, only royal crossbow with an accuracy boosting shield item like zammy book beat it

and it was one of the strongest (inappropriately so) ranged weapons in the early EOC beta

[low girder]

Like, maybe change the Shieldbow sight to work on the Dark bow and give it tier 80 stats or something, since Dungeoneering doesn't have a t80 Ranged weapon reward like it does Melee and Magic. Would make its double-arrow mechanic and special attack useful at higher levels.

Could perhaps do the same with the Strykebow to make it have t90 Accuracy.

though would probably have to raise the price a bit accordingly

[strange lance]

Even if we were to break it down by those used for actual combat, the amount of sighted maple shieldbows is so tiny it wouldn't make much of a difference

You could argue the same for the magic shieldbow, as thats dropped from various monsters, but again the number of sighted ones is so tiny it makes no difference

Elders don't drop from anywhere though, and the numbers also line up there

So i wouldn't say it's a "bad" statistic. You could be more accurate and break it down by actual users of the shieldbows, but again the amount of sighted ones are so low it makes no difference

[hallow spoke]

Any chance the bolt pouch can be modernized with this?

[strange lance]

Nah, sticking strictly to re-tiering

[hallow spoke]

Fair enough.
Is it on the backlog as something to look at down the line?

[strange lance]

Would love to, but its these sorts of things that will make the update not see the light of day for a long time

[strange lance]

Nah, and not with any other jmods as far as im aware

[hallow spoke]

Yea is important to put down checkpoints

[warped maple]

Didn't realise there was a topic on this subject, so I'm just going to copy-paste my Twitter response from a few days ago;

• Why fletching workbenches at 60+? Half of them are F2P, I'd love them to be utilised for F2P players as well.

• What is the reasoning behind the reversal of shieldbows? I missed this information in the document.

[strange lance]

T60+ upgrading might change to start at Iron like in Smithing

Shieldbows - don't see much use with their effect being as niche as it is, reduced power makes players choose other options over them and so on

[glass parcel]

So for bolts was it addressed how you're handing the gem tips? Didn't see how that was getting reshuffled.

[strange lance]

We'd like to but leaving it out of this for now, again to focus on getting the core done and released

Considering them and some other things for maybe a follow up update or something like that

[glass parcel]

Fair enough.

[steel robin]

very excited to see how gemtipping is treated down the line 🙂

[strange lance]

If there's time to do so i'll write out the design for it this gamejam

Though, Kobra basically broke it down exactly as we'd do it

This one here #1365289010125078568 message

[steel robin]

i absolutely love that

as an iron i think rewarding getting your skills up and especially rewarding those primals is so nice

its also a very nice "goal" to go for to know your bolts get powered up with a bit more fletching levels

if this is included it would be super exciting 🙂

would the tuned bane bolts be tippable too in that scenario? or just base bane

[vagrant shell]

Tbh I feel if you tune bane ore, you're side grading into a different, strong effect

[steel robin]

yeah i dont think they would be included, but the jas dragonbane arrows do set the precedent that they can get "enchanted"

or "tipped" if you will

[vagrant shell]

I'd consider jas dragonbane to be equivalent to base dragonbane, the "tipping" there is essentially to allow it to become bane at all

[steel robin]

ah i see alright, consider my point moot

[cinder wedge]

It remains weird that adding bolt tip = +10 tier, and enchanting = +10 tier again.
Actually it works to make low tier effects work for a longer part of the game, like using topaz (e) as t40 ammo is better than what osrs does (altough I like their dragon bolts allowing any tips like our bakriminels do)

[steel robin]

i dont think the proposed level is the tier of damage of the item, just the level req to make it or maybe i just misunderstood your point

[cinder wedge]

I kind talked myself out of my argument either way 🤷‍♂️
But I started saying that using low lvl materials, like steel, to make bolts right now, means an ironman at 20 smithing, can be fletching t40 ammo with his t20 metal and low tier gems, which is neat. And retiering bolts would likely mean 1 bolt tip every 10 tier instead of 2. So topaz would be with mithril instead. At lol lvl it doesnt matter too much, but for adamant, I'd much rather mine addy + lumi than necrite+phasma for my diamond bolts, you know?
In terms of speed to acquire the base bolts

It would also kind of imply that diamond bolts would then becomes ~t70 maybe t80 after enchantment?

I dont really want to derail from this gamejam scope tho!

[dapper vapor]

Maybe enchanted bolts should still boost damage, but be capped by weapon level, so you get more mileage out of them but can actually use them for a bit instead of immediately outleveling them.

like if you have a level 40 base bolt right now; when you tip it, it gets + 10 (and unusable at 40), and another +10 when enchanted up to 60, and you only have 10 levels to USE the bolt with its effect before damage starts dropping off and you really can't justify it

if it was instead "it stays 40 to use, but damage will scale up to (50 or 60)" you'd have some time to use it before it eventually falls off (and at high levels use baks)

which is kind of how baks work right now where they have 99 damage, capped by weapon so they'll naturally scale and stay relevant for awhile

[cinder wedge]

Oh yeah that's how it should already be, didnt consider that part. I'll be reworking the wiki article for ranged weapons and bolts this week, to have more informative tables on there
Edit: turns out I'm an idiot and have already done the ranged weapon tables -.-

[steel robin]

bolt tip effects is such a cool thing it would be a shame if they are left out

even though i have only used necro i wanna get ranged just to use enchanted bolts haha

[strange lance]

Apologies for butting in, but some updates, nothing crazy

Shafts:

• Clarified quantity of normal shafts from each type of log
• Added increments of 5's to the missing logs from previous

Levelling benefits:

• Added them for each tier below Eternal Magic
• Wood/bronze missing most, because upgrade mechanic introduced at oak/iron tier
• Martial mechanic introduced at Maple (level 40), same as burial introduced at Adamant (level 40)
• Tweaked "improved martial XP for x weapon" to just apply to all weapons within a tier, appears twice per tier now
• Log efficiency only affects Elder and Eternal Magic shafts, and appears in those tiers once
• Feather proficiency only affects Elder and Eternal Magic shafts, and appears in those tiers once
• Feather Proficiency does appear once for Normal shafts somewhere from 1-99 (undecided, taking suggestions. Was thinking around level 50)

And some examples

[steel robin]

so its only ever elder and eternal that gets faster feathering? or am i misunderstanding

i love everything else im seeing!

[strange lance]

No, last point

Feather Proficiency does appear once for Normal shafts somewhere from 1-99 (undecided, taking suggestions. Was thinking around level 50)

[dapper vapor]

is arrow/bolt efficiency just time-saving efficiency? "One batch of actions I'll make 300 using 30 resources instead of 150 using 15"?

[steel robin]

ah ok sorry i skimmed over that

i think feather proficiency makes sense around the 60-70 mark, then its like a "big level unlock"

[strange lance]

Since we're not doing tiered shafts, and shafts currently you make increments of +5 as you go up the logs, keeping it that way, but means that log and feather efficiency dont apply like they do for Elder/EM

[strange lance]

yeah

[dapper vapor]

Alright, makes sense and keeps a level of relevancy without the "do NOT bother until you hit this threshold to get double yields" issue

[strange lance]

technically speaking, more XP/h but nothing crazy ofc

[cinder wedge]

most lvling benefits are f2p in M&S, is that the plan here as well?

[steel robin]

any reason why tiered shafts was dropped or is it mostly just not worth it as a mechanic?

[cinder wedge]

Adds a bunch of bloated items on GE and bank, most would have very low volumes made anyways, general feedback was negative

[steel robin]

yeah that makes sense, i guess its just a bit "much" to bring in

all of this looks fantastic though otherwise

[dapper vapor]

if there had been tiered shafts, it probably would have been wide brackets like "1-50 is one shaft" "60-80 is another", but ultimately not worth it

[bold wagon]

but what if you made the blurite crossbow really overpowered

[steel robin]

feather proficciency should deffo be around 60-70 imo

[steel robin]

classic blurite crossbow meta

smh

[bold wagon]

i really like how its a thing simply because there weren't enough metals to pair with the wood types at the time lmao

[glass parcel]

Elder shafts and enternal shafts feel out of place as the alternative top end.

I can see having one be the next upgrade step to keep value on the logs like elder, but having them on both and closely tied in tiers is going to force one of them to be neglected and ignored, most likely the lesser tier.

[bold wagon]

looking great by the way, thank you for your service

[steel robin]

what if elder and eternal shafts are their own "tier"

like the previous tiers

so you get more yield from eternals, and yet elders remain an option

[dapper vapor]

Right now those top tier ones see use in special ammo too

[strange lance]

feedback was generally not for it

[steel robin]

alright, thanks for answering!
all this looks fantastic for the most part, time for those bolt tips changes >:3

[cinder wedge]

I'd probably skip existing dart levels (11/22/37/52/67/81/92/95) when possible, to keep things more interesting every other lvlups
can't tell if you already did from the examples given

alternatively, leave a gap every 10 tiers for when darts get retiered one day

[steel robin]

i think they stated they arent doing darts or other core methods right now

[glass parcel]

Or am I miss reading it, where elder gives up to 90 shafts?

[steel robin]

elder is either 60 normal or upto 30 elder shafts

[cinder wedge]

exactly, right now having a big unlock at 37 AND a new type of dart, and then nothing at lvl 38 would be less exciting than lvl 37 just darts, and something new at 38

[steel robin]

yeah but what i mean is they have stated non-core darts javelins and such are out of the scope of the gamejam

its just not gonna be touched on for now

we can suggest a million things regarding all of those but its just not feasible for the project

[glass parcel]

Okay so there are separate elder shafts and enternal shafts. Right, so yeah I'd say do one not both.

[cinder wedge]

... yes exactly. If Breezy doesnt want to scope them in, he can still move stuff around them to make a smoother progression on every lvlups

[steel robin]

or they can just be left for now and returned to later, i would much rather have them focus on the core methods and bolt tipping and such

either way its getting off topic

[cinder wedge]

i agree with you

Slide the upgrades around darts, so the skill guide (and lvlup screen) doesnt show 2 things you can do at 11, and 0 things you can do at 15

[dapper vapor]

So the current plan/scope doesn't account for enchanted bolts at all? Or is that unavoidable since they can't have things like "this item suddenly gets way weaker and morphs into a lower level metal"?

or alternatively "suddenly this rune item jumps 30-40 levels"

[vagrant shell]

#1365289010125078568 message

[hallow spoke]

any chance log efficiency could also apply to incense sticks?

or would that clash with Sponge' changes?

[molten hill]

big fan of the changes to headless creation

[cinder wedge]

unlikely but 🙏

[vagrant shell]

TL;DR No, but will look at it if time permits. Would likely look like the quick mockup I made for gem tippd bolts. Post-update thing to look at likely.

[dapper vapor]

I saw that chart, didn't see him specifically saying "not this time"

so I guess we just have wonky enchants for awhile

then again who uses them

[steel robin]

kobra made a really good post on it we can only hope they include some of it in

[vagrant shell]

I want to see it addressed too but its understandable to stop scope creep to not have it delayed forever

Hopefully gem tipped bolts + thrown weapons would be addressed at a later date

[cinder wedge]

#1365289010125078568 message

[steel robin]

yeah for sure, gem tipped bolts would be on top of my priority but theres probably other issues with the bolts themselves thats gotta be resolved too

like ive heard since they changed it rubies are fundamentally out of the game (not my own words)

[dapper vapor]

they reworked ruby bolts

[vagrant shell]

Specific effects would be a concern for combat devs in general, since addressing general gem tipped bolts doesn't mean necessarily addressing bakriminel which are in a good spot in comparison

[dapper vapor]

because they didn't want any more baiting for enormous hits

or weird invisible stipulations

[steel robin]

yeah but as kobra said thats a whole other thing for other devs

[cinder wedge]

That's more of a combat team change than a Breezy change, retiering them doesnt really mean they need better effects. Rubies are getting the spotlight, but some of the other ones were dead on release. I've never heard anyone recommend opal/jade/topaz/sapphire bolts in their entire existence, bakriminel or not

[vagrant shell]

If we're talking effects, I wonder if some of the lower could perhaps be transformed into a early game ranged sustain option

But definitely out of scope

[steel robin]

stuff like that would be sick especially if they could be attached to later bolts for slayer etc

but definitely super off topic

[vagrant shell]

Yeah its more a topic for weapon/gear diversity

[steel robin]

my biggest wish is for any gemtip to be attachable to any bolt

(if the bolts get re-tiered ofc)

[dapper vapor]

in terms of this rework I wouldn't bother with changing effects, I'm just thinking about them in terms of where their stats fall, since up until now they were used to fill tiers where the metal didn't exist (like 60/70/80)

[vagrant shell]

I do get you but at the same time, that makes a lot of dupe stuff and a lot of complexity early on

I think the best method is that you in your progress slowly get new effects in range

and then you get a diversity option in the endgame

Which is sort of what normal gem tipped vs bakriminel can work as

[dapper vapor]

even if you standardized them like the above charts, you have the question of "could they have a bit of bonus damage to have life for 20-30 levels instead of 10"

[vagrant shell]

Ideal is to ease players in

[dapper vapor]

without reworking the effects or any big overhauls

[vagrant shell]

I do think it would be nice if we got more niche effects but the effects were stronger

Instead of super general but they're very small difference

[steel robin]

yeah i think theres a lot of space to work with in bolt effects

alot of very interesting stuff they could do

[dapper vapor]

the effects are generally fine right now, you just can't use them since you overlevel, and if you're using baks anyways, why not go with the big expensive top end effects

[vagrant shell]

Oh that reminds me of something obscure

[dapper vapor]

they're not all winners, but for the scope of updates like this, they're fine

[vagrant shell]

Silver Bolts

Silver bolts should probably have fletching requirement dropped

43 -> 25 to match tier of bolt

Alternatively buff silver bolts up lel

[strange lance]

Given that we might change darts in the future im avoiding slotting levelling benefits around them. I also don't think there's any issues having them unlock at same levels personally

[cinder wedge]

Yeah, that makes sense, i had to nitpick to find anything wrong with your proposal, which is effectively great news 😄

[hallow spoke]

can't wait to have dragonbane darts, being indeed more effective than shown

[steel robin]

Blowpipe using darts confirmed

[strange lance]

blowpipe uses javelins

agility level increases the tile range it can shoot

[hallow spoke]

How many darts / nails can we feed a chinchompa before it's at capacity and a proper ahrapnel grenade?

Or how many armour spiked would it need to wear on it?

[clever jetty]

It sounds like acadias will become very important to f2p, even more than today, as part of this proposal. To this end, could you please consider adding more acadia trees in f2p accessible locations? Currently there’s only 3 trees in 1 f2p location. It is already crowded at certain times of day. It also does not seem enough compared with traditional f2p trees (numerous trees over numerous locations). Thanks!

[jaunty cosmos]

Acadia basically becomes the runite of wood.

[clever jetty]

Yes, and crowdedness or competition for resources is no longer a concern with mining. Woodcutting is not like that though. I just wanted to make sure the flow on impacts of changes are being considered so solving one problem does not introduce a myriad of others.

[quaint plover]

Also my biggest dream. Should be able to gem tip any bolt, or maybe crush/consume gem tips for like a powder to that specific bolt effect.

Range leveling journey really feels sucky as a combat style in comparison to the other styles. The other styles all scale up like how Magic spells scale upward and Necro’s conjure scales toward the player while the player can still use the cool spells and conjures with awesome effects with no downside while range can’t.

[sacred blade]

that's a lot of work and hard to maintain because all of the bolts use the same gem tips

if at any time using crossbows is enticing at the higher end, the entirety of the level range would feel it

so gem tipped bolts would become very expensive for lower leveled rangers

[quaint plover]

It would not be expensive because all of the gem tips are very cheap. The ones that are not are onyx, hydrix due to it being tied down to their alch price.

[strange lance]

potential issue with gem tip any bolt is it then erases those reward spaces, it's a good thing that they are only in certain tiers

[quaint plover]

Can still keep the reward spaces. Example:

Level 28: can now tip bolts (and crush/powder) with sapphire

Level 38: can now tip bolts (or crush/powder) with emerald

Level 98 (can now tip bolts (or crush/powder) with hydrix

So it gets exciting for a player who is on their range journey because each 10 tiers, they unlock a gem tip choice.

[strange lance]

it's the effect reward space that is occupied which is the concern, not the level reward space

occupied / competitive

[glass parcel]

Isn't better to have gems compete?

[quaint plover]

I’m kinda get what you are saying but not fully so ima give a few examples: (if you can clarify a bit more then maybe I can fully understand)

Scenario 1: gem tip unlock level can be tipped from that metal and above their unlock point

-opal bolts (lvl 8) can be tipped from bronze to primal (beginning gem tip example)
-ruby (lvl 58) can be tipped from rune-primal but cannot be tipped from bronze-addy (middle gem tip example)
-hydrix (lvl 98) can be tipped for elder rune-primal but cannot be tipped from bronze to banite. (High gem tip example)

^This way a player gets a choice of gem gradually and not all at once.

Level 8, one choice (opal), level 18 (opal and jade), two choices, level 98 (opal-hydrix), all choices. This means that as you level up, it’s a gradual gem competitive reward space (if I understood from your previous reply).

Scenario 2: gem tip unlock level can be tipped from that metal and below their unlock point (the opposite of Scenario 1)

-opal bolts (lvl 8) can be tipped from bronze but cannot be tipped from iron-primal (beginning gem tip example)
-ruby (lvl 58) can be tipped from bronze-rune but cannot be tipped from orikalkum-primal (middle gem tip example)
-hydrix (lvl 98) can be tipped from bronze-primal. (High gem tip example)

^The inverse/opposite of Scenario 1. I gave both Scenario examples since I didn’t know which competitive reward space direction you had in mind.

[quaint plover]

Also, isn’t choice a good thing? If a player really liked a certain gem effect, why is that player force to use a different gem effect that they don’t like due to the EoC tier system? It’ll be good in the long term.

Range isn’t Modernized while Necro and Magic are modernized. Conjures scale for Necro. A player can pick their conjure on the effect they like most instead of being forced to pick a certain one due to tier. (Scaling is good)

Magic can pick between multiple spells as they all scale. Would suck if a player cannot use a spell with an effect they love due to tier. Even the newest spell Crumble Undead scales to 99 with it being unlocked at 78. (Scaling is good)

[steel robin]

Theres really only 2/3 "good" bolt types, so i dont see it as taking up any space to let the less useful bolts be utilized at other levels

[dapper vapor]

Right now the enchanted bolts are used to fill gaps in the bolt levels that metal doesn't cover (there's no 60 metal bolts, but ruby(e) is 60, for example). It would make sense for them to be re-statted once we have normal ammo all the way up, but we don't really need "every effect at every level" as a default stance

even OSRS went with "they're appropriate for certain level bands, and at high levels we make a specific ammo meant for high level variants"

[cinder wedge]

Every effect at every lvl = use the best one anyways and never use the "decent but not best"

[dapper vapor]

Like sure damage scaling/stat distribution in OSRS is a bit different than some of the dull tierscape in the modern game, but those aren't "no big deal" in the stat gaps

using the same loadout and assumptions in stats, someone wanting to use lower level stuff can't REALLY do so without a sacrifice, and they'll do so because the effect makes sense (ruby % hp, sapphire to nuke the muspah shield, etc)

[cinder wedge]

something to note, (e) bolts are consumed everytime they proc, which is an argument "against" using them to begin with, like the poisons ones having a 55% chance to proc means you go through your stack suuuper fast

[dapper vapor]

I do think there could be SOME scaling/extra lifespan on using an enchanted ammo type, because right now it's very short lived to the detriment of even bothering to make them, but "tip anything with anything/unlimited scaling" isn't a good plan and detracts from any spaces where they might want to offer other ammo or access to the effects

[dapper vapor]

those actually have a unique consumption modifier, it's more like 1/8 of the time, to offset the high proc rate

[cinder wedge]

right right, still much faster than the 2-7% every other (e) bolts have

[dapper vapor]

I think I already said it earlier in the thread, but if they did something like "ammo is X level, enchanted tip version has more damage but same equip (capped by weapon level anyways) so you could use it as you scaled for a bit longer before moving on might be the better middle ground. Right now tipping your ammo might make it unusable and then it still only has a short viability span

And maybe baks could be restatted a bit so "using enchanted bolts" isn't a level 99-only thing, they have scaled stats anyways to future proof them for a bit

[cinder wedge]

The super low lvl stuff could use a bit more lifespan, you might use the t1 Opal for what, 20m of training from 1-20? Then pearl from for another couple 30min for 20-30?
More lifespan in the early game is fine, like if you could add any tips to dragon or broad bolts or wtv at t55/t60

[dapper vapor]

right now most bolts are +10 when tipped, then another +10 when enchanted (incompatible with the stuff you're using at the base level, so mithril bolts enchanted to level 50 are like rune bolts with a passive, and unusable until rune levels)

it could make sense to be like "you can still use them with mithril for the effect, and it'll scale with level until 50" instead

and then it falls off

[cinder wedge]

Oh ok, yeah changing that is probably the biggest deal, allowing them to be used with low dmg, sclaing up to current

[dapper vapor]

something like that, then maybe having BK bolts equippable at 90 or so scaling to 99, and maybe another unique bolt at 75 filling the same kind of role, could be appropriate

but with even just a mild bit of scaling on the existing bolts, they'd be usable on the way up to the mid/late game where they actually become unusable and you'd want interesting effects on demand

Also fun fact there's no 75 ammo right now for the armadyl crossbow, so your damage using it will ALWAYS be penalized, by weaker ammo, or using it with stronger ammo

[cinder wedge]

[cinder wedge]

Hilarious, not a super likely pit stop on the ironman pipeline when Vanquish exists

[dapper vapor]

Like maybe THAT'D be an appeal for the crossbow(s), a passive that makes any enchanted bolt deal t75 damage with the set, as that "mid level use any bolt" option

I don't necessarily recommend that as the solution, but I think that's the kind of thing breezy means by "if we just allow mixing and matching anything that steps on a lot of other options and spaces"

[strange lance]

yeah this

[steel furnace]

little late but i wonder if there'd be any niche to repurposing the Shieldbow sight into a pocket slot item that gives you some extra attack range

with ranged weapons only i guess

[short mason]

this is pretty cool but i dont think we should force adding the missing tier stuff as thats possible opportunities for much more engaging stuff like quest rewards

[chilly pecan]

Tiered arrow shafts still seem like a bank clogger that would make the skill clunky, especially from the Ironman experience as it would make the biggest midgame arrow shaft source (maples) obsolete. I think the existing system where base shafts are used for most arrows, and dinarrows are used for the actually strong ones is good, so maybe explore something like that?

[strange lance]

Tiered shafts is off the table now anyway

I've just not updated the doc since first writing it

[old pelican]

Let’s gooooo

[chilly pecan]

Every Ironman thanks you

I saw the new doc said you would look at other options, but I think what we have is good

[strange lance]

There's potential it could be like only 3 tiers of shafts, weak, strong etc. but haven't entertained that either. Keeping just normal shafts is best for now

[strange lance]

I posted a slight update about shafts and levelling benefits 2 days ago #1365289010125078568 message

[chilly pecan]

Ah cool didn't see that one

[glass jay]

this should have happened with the fletching 110 update ;-;

[cinder wedge]

Thats not the purpose of 110 updates, it would scope creep them and go from 6-8 week projects all the way to 12-14 week projects (breezy and stu have been working on this for like 3 gamejams)

I still wish it was possible, but better late than never

[steel robin]

has there been any good news on gem tipped bolts of all tiers? :3

would love the primal bolts or elder rune to be tippable

could even come with slightly reduced tier damage for primals so it doesnt compete with bakriminal

[vagrant shell]

oh wait no they would be t100 because primal arrows are

[steel robin]

i love bolt effects, in osrs its such an iconic part of ranged you can even use rune crossbows and bolts well into lategame

[distant dragon]

Strongly support a fletching retier work

[strange lance]

I have another thing to pick your brains about

[jaunty parcel]

When would someone ever use this? It would be worse damage and same effect at a higher level? What would be the value?

[steel robin]

irons

[jaunty parcel]

Is it so you aren't locked to the 6hour tree respawn?

[steel robin]

and cheap mains

also makes primal /mining smithing at 100 feel more rewarding

as right now there isnt alot of use for post 100 mining/smithing on irons

primal equipment only exists for exp, the exp of primal arrows and bolts was gutted to the same exp as adamant, so i think letting the bolts and arrows be useful is just a net positive

[glass parcel]

I think my main issue with the last proposal was the inclusion of Elder Shafts and Eternal Shafts as the two options. Since they’re both high-end and within the same level bracket, it felt off. I don’t see how Elder Shafts could be competitive or viable without introducing some awkward or forced design choices.

if it were something like, 1-40/41-80/81-120 type of thing, then I could see it's place in the game. though 40 levels might be a bit of a large bracket. 30 levels gives you 4 different tiers to work with.

[vagrant shell]

Those remain because currently they're used for unique arrows. Elder shafts are for black stone arrows, deathspore, splintering

As in, not a new shaft being introduced

They're in the game right now

[hallow spoke]

Perhaps an offhand, relic or perk that automatically fletches logs into arrowshafts when cut, at some cost would be nice

[glass parcel]

gotcha, so it would end up being some legacy hang up if we continue.

[novel kettle]

Looked over the new lvling benefits and was curious to know the reasoning behind the varied lvling benefit unlock lvls. Ex, arrow proficiency unlocking at 12 for oak, 33 for teak, 75 for yew. Why not keep each lvling benefit consistent within each tier?

[vagrant shell]

Yeah to my understanding they're not part of the new core arrows

[strange lance]

to vary the feeling between tiers, otherwise it's too similar and boring

Thats why mining & smithing do it differently between tiers too

[steel robin]

mining and smithing unlocks definitely feel good

now to make those same unlocks tippable >:3

[novel kettle]

Ah. I definetly like the idea of lvling unlocks because they do feel good as additional milestones, i guess the milestone points, even with smithing is what felt odd to me personally.

[quaint plover]

The thing I do not get, is that people are completely okay with tiered metals, but when it comes to wood, all of a sudden it’s a problem?

Wood is so much easier to get and faster, in comparison to metal of mining ore 1, then ore 2, then smelting, VS just chopping then fletching. Wood comes in abundance too in regular woodcutting and PvM drops.

Makes no sense lol. Let’s use bronze bolt shafts for everything then /s

[vagrant shell]

Mod Breezy really wrote "I have another thing to pick your brains about" and no follow up post

[quaint plover]

Also, to mention that metal is more expensive and wood is dirt cheap.

[vagrant shell]

Such a tease, Breezy

[strange lance]

too many messages, too busy 😢

[jaunty parcel]

Part of this is going to be inertia. It was already the case the metals differentiated and so it feels good to continue that. But shafts didn't do that so it feels like more of a change and needs heavier justification.

[steel robin]

well did that message not pick your brain?

[vagrant shell]

my brain, indeed, got picked

[jaunty parcel]

In a sense the metal changing would always be seen as necessary to tier up. So it's the wood change that feels odd and bloated unless we could find a strong justification for it.

Like we use the same bowstring throughout. It's in principle reasonable for this to also need tiers. But you need to do more work to sell that to players

[quaint plover]

That’s just not true, if it was, then Jagex wouldn’t have tiered wood planks.

[jaunty cosmos]

Something something not everything has to be 1:1 in tiers / leveling.

[jaunty parcel]

Plank tiers already existed they filled in the gaps. It wasn't a one off thing like elder arrows

[quaint plover]

When the long overdued Construction Rework happens, watch them use each plank instead of the original 4.

[jaunty parcel]

Yes, obviously of course they would. And if they already had wood oak and maple arrow shafts they would probably expand that out no problem.

But history happened so that all arrows used regular shafts. So it felt odd to change that now. It's not just filling in gaps

[quaint plover]

No they should keep the original 4 with that logic. “We always had it this way, so keep it the same” kind of logic

[jaunty parcel]

You are not listening to me. Have a good day

[quaint plover]

No I am understanding you, it’s just goofy logic.

Especially when Jagex is doing this, “Increase skilling profitability” thing, they won’t give more wood uses like metal does.

[jaunty parcel]

It makes the woods less useful not more since they can only be used in their narrow level band.

[quaint plover]

That makes it even more hilarious. Especially when @strange lance was just preaching on how he didn’t want gem tips all be competing with each other, then has no issue with all woods competing with each other when we all know people are gonna use the cheapest wood that gives the most output.

[jaunty parcel]

I think it's reasonable to have a cheap vs fast tradeoff in logs to shafts. And also think if you made oak maple arrow shafts they would be worthless since the demand for the associated arrow is too low

[sacred blade]

I heard that magic logs are much better for shafts than elder, is this because of price or is it true even looking at cutting rate

I think maybe the amount of arrow shafts made should scale a bit more to make the higher tier tree a no-brainer

[quaint plover]

Then iron bolt shafts are worthless too with the what you just said about wood shafts.

Yet we have em

[jaunty parcel]

Something needs to distinguish tiers. But not everything has to. I wouldn't recommend adding a bunch of tiers of feathers either.

[sacred blade]

tiered feathers was brought up last year and shot down

[quaint plover]

Pretty much everything is distinguished by tiers on RuneScape. Wood is a core part of RuneScape just like how metal is and should be treated the same.

[jaunty parcel]

Mostly I'm just saying a lot of this was contingent. If there had only been arrowhead with no metal tiers and tiered shafts then adding more tiered shafts would make sense. But I feel it needs a stronger justification since it wasn't.

[quaint plover]

If not, then let’s have any gem tip for the effect a player prefers, and not forced into tiers like you say

[steel robin]

i really dont think theres any actual good arguments against letting you put any gemtip on any tier bolt

like you can already do it with bak bolts

this just allows you to do it pre-bak bolts

[jaunty parcel]

It is somewhat strange that the gems are restricted that way. And I probably would be in favor of some change like that. It's mostly low priority me since most effects are bad anyway and bakriminals do give you access to them all at the high end. Major knock I would have is bloating worthless items.

[steel robin]

if its such a big issue then bak shouldnt get it either no?

[quaint plover]

I totally agree with all of this. Like imagine if Conjures didn’t scale and skeleton was a tier 1 conjure and zombie was only tier 40. I like Skeleton better but would be forced to use Zombie. This is how I feel about Range.

[steel robin]

yeah i dont understand the reward space thing about not allowing them when the precedent is already set with bak

we know these can scale, its been done

this is being kept archaic for 0 reason

[quaint plover]

^^^^^^ This x1000

[jaunty parcel]

Well not 0 reason. There is a lot of dev time that would go into changing it

So you need to be able to justify that Time

And if no one would use an onyx bronze bolt. Should they spend the time to make it.

[quaint plover]

I gave 2 solutions to that. #1365289010125078568 message

[steel robin]

you could always restrict it from tier 70 and above only if you think it should only apply to "useful" tiers

[jaunty parcel]

Those pair down the work and I do quite like them but still need to ask the question

[quaint plover]

Or that too similar to Invention starting at 70

[steel robin]

yeah then its more of a "bolt proficiency thing"

like a proper unlock

(could be 80 for that matter the tier isnt too relevant)

[mint bloom]

Hard no to the unique arrow shafts. Players already constantly struggle with bank space, especially as more and more (actual new) content comes into the game. I dont think its in good taste to update existing content to add even more items to clutter bank space, unless we can get more free/member bank spaces that we do not have to pay for on top of a membership payment

[steel robin]

they have already been changed

so now its only normal shafts, eternal and elder

like are already in the game

[quaint plover]

These wood wouldn’t clutter your bank just how different metal bolts and arrows do not clutter your bank.

[jaunty parcel]

I'm quite attached to bakbolts still because they allowed you to get all those effects and only came from Skilling. So I would be sad to see them lose their niche. But flash events already brought that down so oh well.

[steel robin]

yeah i mean primals can deffo be set to t95 if tipped or something

so baks remain a real item

[mint bloom]

they most definitely would, but also im not gonna debate it since someone mentioned the idea is gone once again

i like baks, especially since its the only content revolving around bloodwood trees

[steel robin]

nah having content that goes on cooldown blows

6 hours cd is super cringe

i do not wanna have to do a "bloodwood run" every 6 hours

[mint bloom]

i mean, that is the entire farming skill

[steel robin]

instant growth pots :3

[quaint plover]

No they wouldn’t clog your bank. No one in the history of RuneScape ever said, “Damn, all these bronze-primal swords are clogging my bank.”

[mint bloom]

the only issue i see with bloodwood trees is that bakriminels if they come back into the meta hard, they limit pvm time if you run out of baks

[mint bloom]

a reward within the skill later on from farming animals

and you cant do it perma, you'd runout eventually

[steel robin]

yeah and farming animals is like a once per day/once per 3-4 days type thing

very different from every 6 hours

[jaunty parcel]

It would be very funny for their damage to go down from tipping

[steel robin]

i mean it makes sense so baks still has a place no?

[jaunty parcel]

I'm just saying tipping and enchanting normally makes things stronger. (I'd prob give baks further upgrade room instead or better proc chance stronger effects instead of u wanted them to have their niche.)

[steel robin]

yeah then again, does tipping need to make the actual bolt damage stronger? could just be the extra effect

[mint bloom]

i think, with an addition of another bloodwood tree, and them actually allowing the new time spell to work on bloodwood trees, this problem would be pretty well solved. Not to mention bak bolts are already dropped from WFE (granted its getting nerfed)

[mint bloom]

With the addition of the 'Mk.' part of fletching to function like smithing. I think it should also start from the same tier as smithing. This is a system that just makes sense in modern Runescape and I don't think it would feel correct for it to only start at level 60 whereas it starts as low as steel to my knowledge with smithing.

[steel robin]

or just make them choppable with a low % chance so you can just chop them normally

[mint bloom]

perhaps, but idk i just like bloodwoods how they are

[jaunty parcel]

Is there any way that the mk1-5 could be hidden unless currently craftable or toggled visibility? It's not great finding things in that long list of similar items.

[mint bloom]

are you saying in the crafting UI?

cuz it could just function exactly as the smithing one if they go through with this update

[jaunty parcel]

Yeah if you fletch with an eternal magic log then the make x screen has a huge long list of items. Smithing works well and if they could make it use that interface it would be great, but it doesn't have to be that.

[mint bloom]

Yeah I mean I think that would just tie into my point of using existing systems across the game. Functionally this is going to be exactly like smithing with "Mk. 1-5" according to weapon tier, so I don't see a point in creating a whole new interface just for fletching when its the exact same process as smithing

[jaunty parcel]

Well you would have to make all of fletching work in the smithing interface which might not be easy. I thought a toggle on the regular interface would be nice. But that is probably not easy either, but figured I'd bring it up and see if there was anything that could be done about it.

[mint bloom]

well no I mean like they take the blueprint of the smithing interface and just insert fletching items instead

[jaunty parcel]

Right if they can do that awesome. But if they think that is too much work anything else to clean up the interface would be appreciated.

[mint bloom]

of course of course

[wet egret]

Really like this change. I’m all for making production skills match the tiering of the skills they supply. For the magic bows being moved to t80, what would be the plan for existing bows in game considering you can buy them at the Champion’s Guild?

[dapper vapor]

probably swapped out for their new level equivalents in shops, considering the equipment available at places like the Champion Guild was added later on when the gear was swapped in their levels too

[mint bloom]

Yeah a simple revamp of replacing current X tier with new X tier rather than trying to keep the current item itself available

[strange lance]

we would swap them out for the new equivalent tier

[strange lance]

My question i was going to ask yesterday was going to be about Broads and Dragon darts

In the new structure, Broads would remain as an unlock at level 52 Fletching, and Dragon darts moved down to somewhere in the low 60's. Broad arrows and bolts would be made by attaching either tips to a feathered shaft like all new ammo in the re-tier

XP would have to be rebalanced for both, so the question i had was how do you think they should work to have their balancing niche in those two tiers?

It could be e.g. Broads are made more expensive, and give slightly more XP than Rune ammunition/acadia weaponry. Or maybe that they can be afk'd for longer but give a similar XP. We could also play around with how many can be purchased daily.

I think Dragon dart tip makes sense to be more XP since they'e not easily sourced in bulk and need to be purchased to be done in bulk. Unsure how much more than core Orikalkum/mahogany stuff but yeah
Bear in mind that each tier has arrow and bolt proficiency levelling benefits for core items, which doubles the output and XP per action & per hour

[strange lance]

I didn't have time this gamejam to do the balancing work, but imagine Rune ammo and Broads being balanced relative for a tier 50-60 method, and similarly darts for 60-70

[vagrant shell]

My default assumption would be that they're just the better xp method for their tier, given one is a 300 slayer point unlock, and the other is scarcer and drop reliant

[molten hill]

broads I think I'd like to see pitched essentially as follows:

• slayer masters now sell broad-arrow-unique headless arrows
• the xp per arrow is lower than the usual tipping process, and is intended to account for the fact that the headless-making process hasn't been completed
  the idea behind this is that it retains the position of broads in the context of ironman fletching without providing a substitute product for the much faster xp available from tipping headless arrows made by someone else

dragon darts I would keep in almost their current position (possibly with nerfs to keep them still comfortably the best xp/hr). replace dragon dart tips with 'ceremonial dragon dart tips' if needed to justify the difference in tier. right now they're too expensive for anyone to really use, so I can't really imagine them having a substantial impact on the meta, unless they're absolutely loaded on to drop tables. with them being ceremonial you can just have them destroyed or unequippable on creation.

on a related note, fletched ammo (I assume) is almost exclusively sold to general stores as a means of leaving the game at the moment. do we have any thoughts on general store prices for current/new ammo?

[still torrent]

I think it would be interesting to put darts in levels ending in 8, so at least there will be fewer empty levels.

[vagrant shell]

you could always change them to be "dragonbone" darts. They're not actually dragon metal.

[jaunty parcel]

the doc only had arrows and bolts, are you planning on adding metal darts to all tiers with this current rebalance? if not then could dragon darts could remain as they are until darts get retiered? its a bit of an inconsistency but no one was using them as a weapon anyway i expect

[molten hill]

sure, I rarely have strong views on thematics (except #MakeVarrockShitAgain)

[hot citrus]

I don't like having to stock up on arrows with Slayer Masters. Can we not make it a daily?

[strange lance]

No plans to add more darts

It already is a daily

[hot citrus]

Yes but I don't like it

But the meta will change anyway after the update. So I can't complain

[strange lance]

oh you're asking for it to be changed to not be a daily

[hot citrus]

Less Dailyscape the better

[cinder wedge]

Broad bolts/arrows are made en-mass by irons atm, and iirc, d/a'ing them is worthless, so we sell them to general stores for ~40 coins each

[jaunty parcel]

my feeling is dragons dart tips come from reasonably high level stuff in fairly limited quantities so i would leave that as it is.
Then broads i would try to balance around the tradeoff of not needing to make or farm arrowheads maybe by making them higher xp per craft (than its tier) but slower to craft (its a trickier arrowhead requires more focus). This keeps as much of their value for the people who expected to use them (still good xp for gp invested) while meaning that it isnt necessarily the fastest xp per hour (but still good since you can just buy them)

[jaunty parcel]

hmm you mentioned the proficiency would double xp/hour rates, mithril arrows (lvl 45) are currently 112.5/15 arrows action assuming rune arrows at level 50 have similar xp then doubling that gets 225 xp per (30 arrow) action which is the same as broad arrows. in that case maybe they don't need a large adjustment? is that not the right ball park for rune arrows in the retiering?

[steel robin]

any reduction in dailyscape for irons is just a huge positive

you could make the cost of buying more than the daily limit way higher to compensate

and it will act as a moneysink since irons kinda dont have any moneysinks

[jaunty parcel]

easy way to do this is broad arrow head packs that are much more expensive per head

[steel robin]

yeah exactly, im sure theres plenty irons who absolutely wouldnt mind paying a ton extra for more

this goes for other resources aswell like runes

got 300m+ and it does nothing but rot

since we have nothing to use it for

[bitter patio]

I'm really sad to hear shieldbows may be on their way out 😦

I always thought they were cool

[vagrant shell]

But longbows are on their way in!

Hell yeah longbows

[bitter patio]

I am happy for that at least! I wonder if, in an ideal world, there's a place where both could exist?

[molten hill]

imo shieldbows can definitely be designed that have a specific niche

[fickle zealot]

In an ideal world shields in general wouldn't be dogshit, but we don't live in that world

[sacred blade]

since the models still exist... would it really be that bad if they were just longbows but with shields, no damage nerf, just literally (strictly) better but no new shieldbows will be made and they'll still be unaugmentable

maybe unlocked at X9?

possibly incorporating the appropriate metal for the shield, and nonexistent in drop tables

[fickle zealot]

would it be bad? no. would there really be a point? also no

you could make them augmentable and no damage nerf and it would honestly be fine lol, at least no more broken than bone shield already is

[sacred blade]

there would be a point, for pre-invention

shield abilities with ranged but without using runes

[fickle zealot]

and you need that for what situation?

[sacred blade]

you don't need a lot of things

[fickle zealot]

and that would be a viable consideration for what situation?

[sacred blade]

pre-invention no necromancy

lots of players don't even use augments actually

Active players don't really have a comprehensive perspective on what other players are doing and what they use, from jmod comments on augments and perks it seems these people exist and there are a lot of them

and just having an alternative at all instead of necromancy being a support skill for all other combat styles

[dapper vapor]

they should address where they they want the shield/dps ratios on defense and damage output before doing stuff like that. Maybe at some point after that they could say "hey here's some 2h+bundled shield" options again like what they wanted to do with hastae in that weapon diversity beta

or items that are locked to the shield being equipped too

[sour atlas]

I agree with Mod Breezy on the changes for Board Arrows. Any decision works.

I would like raise about silver bolts inconsistency. Silver Bolts is a tier 25 ammo but fletching level is at 43 according to the wiki. I hope silver bolts also get re-tiered as well.

[low girder]

Possibly out of scope, but can we give some kind of a purpose to Barbed bolts https://runescape.wiki/w/Barbed_bolts

My idea would be to just replace them with (actual) Dragon bolt tips and Dragon bolts, since they're conspicuously absent. They'd just be slightly higher damage/xp versions of Orikalkum bolts, maybe with some kind of special effect when used with the Dragon crossbow.

[bitter patio]

I like using a shield 😦

I do wish it were more viable

[mint bloom]

sounds fine to me, im curious why broads would need to be made more expensive if their xp rate is adjusted for tier 50-60? Its still a daily purchase and I imagine you still need to learn to craft it from a slayer master

[fickle zealot]

Do you like using shields because you genuinely find mh+shield gameplay fun or because you feel it suits your character's aesthetic/backstory? I understand from some of your other posts you're more of a RP-focused player (which is fine) but I think from a detached gameplay perspective there's very rarely a reason to use a shield these days. Even in the case of low level playerrs who haven't delved into Necromancy, what are you fighting at that level that you would conceivably need a shield for?

[bitter patio]

Yeah that's what I'm saying, I wish sword and shield were more viable

I don't like that shields really only exist as a switch for certain abilities

And if you have certain necromancy perks, they're just obsolete all together?

[fickle zealot]

Pretty much yeah, there's bone shield from necromancy which you can use with any style to use defensive abilities without needing a shield equipped

[glass parcel]

So, broad arrows / bolts were designed to kill certain slayers monsters. I don't think there is a big justification to making them that different from their rune equivalents. I can see them being a larger xp or alternative training method for that level bracket, since they require a bulk of slayer points to make, but it shouldn't be a continued to be the meta pick once you get to tier 70.

I don't have an issue with them being a possible shop daily, alternative, where they provide a large supply of mid level fletching xp, for players to keep on hand and use while waiting on other activities.

Dragon Darts.. and well dragon equipment in general is just in a weird spot in the game. I don't think they need to be crazy good xp, but I think they should have a use in game for that level bracket. Level 60 is generally where you introduce special attacks, and giving them one, or even some passive could be a way of making them worth seeking out for that level bracket. Maybe outside the scope of this project, but I do think dragon needs to stand out, and fast fletching xp just isn't exciting for "dragon" equipment.

[dapper vapor]

I don't think you can really reconcile the level gaps on using/making dragon darts, their sources, the xp, etc. Probably would be better to just swap out most sources of dragon dart tips for some new thing that fills the same role (fletch for fast XP at high levels) and introduce dragon dart tips balanced around 60s from lower sources, and worry about "making them feel good as a weapon" later

[molten hill]

^^This is basically accurate

dragon dart tips are currently balanced around a reward space of 'this is fast fletching xp'

it's a much bigger project to move them to a different reward space

[sacred blade]

while they are called dragon darts, they have seemingly no real relation to dragon metal, and considering their scarcity and cost I don't really think they should be considered something that has to fall in line with everything else holding the 'dragon' moniker

[dapper vapor]

replace them with (other mass xp thing) at the high level, then just put "dragon nails" that you fletch into dragon darts on some normal dragon drop tables, call it a day

[hallow spoke]

Dragon darts, like arrows, are made with dragon talons

Not dragon metal

[dapper vapor]

so then rangers killing some dragons for hides and stuff can get some tips to make some thrown weapons if they want

more than darts, we have javelin, thrownaxe, knife, all behind quests and modest reqs and they have nothing going for them either, if people have concerns about the level 60 ranged weapons being left out

[mint bloom]

i think the solution is replace all current dragon tips with necro-bane tips and just scrap og dragon tips

I do like Honour's lore solution of them being the talons of the dragons. so they should be integrated into all dragon drops according to dragon tier and then like i mentioned just replace existing dragon tip tables with necro-banite

[fickle zealot]

They already are the talons of dragons, or at least dragon arrowtips are, according to their examine text

dragon dart tips don't explicitly say the same but given that they're made of a bone-colored material instead of the usual dragon red it's safe to assume they probably are too

[still torrent]

I wonder if we should be able to turn dragon bones into dragonbone arrowheads and dragon darts with Crafting skill. Then you use Fletching to finish them.

[cinder wedge]

If we want to replace them with something that remains fast fletching, we could swap in bakriminel dart tips, makes more sense for ~t85 darts, would be in-line with their current fletching xp
Dragon darts as mentioned dont see much use other than as fletching xp

[mint bloom]

No I know but that's what I mean. Actually use that and put them in dragon drop tables

[restive thorn]

Since we are going back to longbows

Longbow sight can be used on the eternal magic longbows???

[cinder wedge]

[Breezy's plan atm is to remove the sight](#1365289010125078568 message)
This and following exchanges, the feedback is that the item doesnt add much to the game

[valid wasp]

The process of making a +5 bow kinda does the same thing already, right?

When doing the conversion of existing sighted bows, might as well put them to +5s to maintain the stats

[cerulean lintel]

the main thing i want to see is a log sink method for fletching that rivals ammo fletching in xp an hour

we have too many yews and magic in circulation

[mint bloom]

id imagine the martial system implemented into all tiers of bows would already do a decent job at that. However I would not expect existing players that are already sitting on 100s of thousands of these logs to feel like they are able to actually sink through that supply when they are still doing existing content that supplies those logs. I'd imagine the sink would be about even if we assume a fresh account can start fletching them from the moment they obtain said logs.

That said I do think there's another problem to your log sink dilemma that would need to be looked at, and its that yews and magic logs at current tiering (for this update) would be for fletching tier 70-80 supplies, so what happens to those logs once you out level that bracket? Do we get another way to sink those logs (you could disassemble them for simple parts and put miscellenia on something else)? There is also firemaking training to consider if you don't go the accidental firemaking and fletching route.

[narrow shell]

I hope the longbows look cool. I liked the metal accents on stuff like the magic shieldbow, but many of the others (like maple shieldbow) looked a bit silly and oversized.

Not sure I'm too thrilled with having to have different tiered logs in order to make different tiered arrows. I liked just having to decide which arrowhead before; now you have to choose both the correct arrowhead AND correct log?

[cinder wedge]

I believe this was backtracked. The current pitch is to have 1 type of shaft for normal-magic, and keep the already-existing elder and eternal magic shafts

[narrow shell]

Ok, good. That just seemed like so much unnecessary bank clutter for the sake of clutter.

[vestal parrot]

anything to be done with these for range ammo?
https://runescape.wiki/w/Abyssalbane_bar

[dapper vapor]

I think the fletching retier thing just had them getting buffed to 80 and taking out the "enchant beforehand" step

like you'd just make the base ammo, then attune them to the chosen thing (dragons)

[vestal parrot]

ok, cool. so tier 80 ammo. i wonder how much it'll impact lower levels, since it's a very strong ammo to be used at tier 60 right now

[dapper vapor]

I actually used it on my iron for QBD with its restricted combat levels/early questing so that account would be out of some luck, but most people doing the quest lines and such to unlock the ammo probably hit 80 soon or aren't doing anything that relies on it before then

[molten hill]

it requires rotm right

if so, subject to it ruining a given piece of content, just make them t80

tbh I'm kinda team not requiring levels for specific ammo anyway

[vestal parrot]

ya, i guess mage has that upperhand where the spells now scale.

range ammo sadly doesn't - i wish it would

[dapper vapor]

that's what I mean, a bizarre case like mine is the only likely scenario it impacts anything

and the "level 60" thing was mostly from how gear level worked at the time anyways

although now that I think of it idk if 60 was the equip level or not. A check back in wiki history says they had mithril base stats

oh wait

All arrows made from Bane metal can only be fired from Magic longbow, shortbow or a Dark bow.

So they were weapon-locked anyways, since pre-eoc ammo had some cases of "this ammo is too strong for your weapon"

[steel robin]

it should be real good if changed like that

[bold wagon]

good take

your damage is limited by your weapon tier anyway

[potent wyvern]

a pretty obscure (at this point) thing i'm curious about for the retiering is Ogre bows, composite bows, and brutal arrows

[mint bloom]

for what purpose exactly @potent wyvern i believe they are already fletchable at the tier level that the bows are

[potent wyvern]

From what I recall, brutal arrows require two to four levels over the normal arrows to fletch, currently. Rune Arrows at 75, Brutal Rune Arrows at 77, etc;

it's all very, very old content of course

[cinder wedge]

One thing is sure, there will no longer be any shieldbows

[narrow shell]

shieldbows were a nice idea in theory, but I don't know if a lot of people actually used them

[vestal parrot]

they eventually fell into the pits of shield switching for range

[fickle zealot]

which is exactly where regular shields ended up, because the problem is with shields not specifically shieldbows lol. As long as shieds in general are bad, shieldbows will also be bad

[sacred blade]

shieldbows will not exist

[tropic basin]

I really hope this comes to pass. As an Iron with 70+ all (84 fletching) having access to a wider range of crossbows rather than Karil's or ACB or skipping from rcb to Chaotics would be a huge boon.

[sour atlas]

I agree Chaotic weaponry need a new or additional effect due to t80 damage and accuracy weapon being made easily. Elder rune 2h sword have the same stats as Chaotic Maul. Same will go for crossbow when the fletching re-tier happens. Maybe this could extend to gravite weaponry too.

[still torrent]

If I recall, the level 80 weapon, when fully upgraded, will have tier 79 stats.

Banite starts with t75 stats and when fully upgraded to +4, it has t79.

[mint bloom]

Yeah crafted weapons beyond level 60 have diminishing power. However I would agree it's quiet apparent that t80 non craftables are also becoming extremely easy to obtain

[twilit frigate]

Has there been any consideration about converting all thrown weapons to work like vengeance (ranged), sunspear (ranged), crystal chakram, etc and simply be a single item that doesn't deplete? I know the balancing would have to be addressed when compared to bows and crossbows, but just thought it would be something to consider.

[bold wagon]

I would perhaps look to how osrs "solved" that, by adding blowpipes and ballistas

i don't think you could convert the darts and javelins and whatever else themselves to a singular item, at best you could turn them into ammo that stuff like the above uses

but also, they changed their ranged damage types a while ago from bolt, arrow and thrown to light, medium and heavy

which i think makes it easier to incorporate something like those weapons that technically turns the ammo they're using into not being thrown anymore

[hallow spoke]

Darting fingergloves to use darts could be neat

Javelin grips

Or throwing handwraps

[jaunty cosmos]

Just throw boulders.

[hallow spoke]

Dwarven manualcannon

[still torrent]

Having javelins be fletchable would be nice.

[vestal parrot]

a lot of redundant types and weaponry.

weapon diversity needs to happen, else there truly is no distinguishable difference between wielding a dart, javeline, tomahawk, or chakram

(other than their weapon ranges, which makes no sense in eoc without particular power differences)

[twilit frigate]

When weapon diversity beta 2 got cancelled, iirc they mentioned rolling out individual weapon diversity updates over time. That never happened, though.

[hallow spoke]

What if throwing axes did melee damage and didn't use ammo while in melee

Chakrams have attack speed scale on distance 1 tick in melee, +1 tick for every 2 tiles

Javelins having longbow range, as thrown weaponry would give them a niche by itself, but maybe you can thrown 2 or 3, while beyond 6 tiles

[vestal parrot]

this is essentially our battleaxes, which are dual wield, cos greataxes are 2h

[vestal parrot]

i do not recall there being a WDB2. we only had 1, and it's captured in rswiki

[twilit frigate]

right, it was planned but cancelled. you can read about it's cancellation here and the supposed plans to roll out diversity changes over time, which never happened, at this link instead.

[sacred blade]

that was before necromancy

their thinking on combat is very different now

they also already kinda went against that releasing specific weapons that have those effects and deciding not to apply them to the entire weapon class

like masterwork spear

overall I'm not really convinced about weapon diversity as it existed in that beta any way, a lot of them are little effects tacked on to normal combat which don't make much of a difference while others are very clearly really really good effects

they were trying to work around abilities without touching them which is just half-assed and not worth

[hallow spoke]

Weapon types can have a baseline effect, with individual items maintaining their own effects

[mint bloom]

how do you make words into links like that?

I personally still like the idea of a general weakness. Weakness can either give bonus damage or accuracy idk

Because I think I would enjoy a meta where Ranged is BIS against X boss because it is weak to Thrown weapons rather than style being meta just because they currently have the best synergy/numbers

That would also give them a decent excuse to slow down how quickly our weapon tiers climb, instead of just getting 1/2 t95s for each class, now we can easily get 3 or more by simply having a thrown, arrow, and bolt weapon at t95 instead of just bow vs xbow simply based on what newest is.

The only issue I see with that however, is it would kind of kill off the effectiveness of the weapons like the HexHunter bow that deal more damage to magic class opponents due to it specifically being a bow that would use arrows.

[sacred blade]

weapons like hexhunter are already being superseded for their niche at the high end since they were given very static effects

[mint bloom]

i am aware but i more just meant the premise

[twilit frigate]

square brackets [ followed by parentheses (, and you can hide the content popup from links by enclosing the link in angled brackets <

[twilit frigate]

agree, and the weapon diversity was largely intended to make crafted weapons have fundamental differences, since currently any same tier 1h is the same as any other same tier 1h with the only difference being appearance. i think there's still a small difference with slow weapons like battleaxes if you play on legacy mode.

[hallow spoke]

actually, maces are the defacto best 1h melee weapon (if slash / stab weakness isn't relevant) for eoc
due to having prayer bonus

unless there's some context i am missing

[twilit frigate]

yeah that's true, maces do have the slight advantage with prayer, but it's a shame that dragon maces lose the prayer bonus if you put a wilderness hilt on them. it's also a shame that weapon poison was turned into a consumable instead of still being a weapon modification, since that would have been perfect for daggers and spears now.

[vestal parrot]

that's the problem with wdb not being rolled out.

unless there is a way to upgrade existing weapons with their passive effects to higher tiers, essentially growing with you, you'll end up with powercreep making them obsolete.

already mwsoa got obsolete, and there's been many requests over the years to carry its effects over.

if we did have wdb implemented, we could have a new spear that carried on the spear effect, while possibly introducing a separate effect for that particular spear.

right now, we're essentially entering into each weapon having its own unique, making everything else that doesn't have an effect, quickly obsolete

[vestal parrot]

been 6 years, totally forgot about wdb2 which had so much potential.

evidently, only scythes have the diversity in them than all others

[fickle zealot]

man throwing knives would have been insanely broken if high level ones were ever added lol, imagine thinking -5 tiers of dmg/accuracy balances a 33% faster gcd

[vestal parrot]

there's ways to balance that of course... just needed time to do it.

[fickle zealot]

yeah you could make that argument about literally anything though. There are ways to balance weapon diversity, but jagex was so far off the mark that it makes more sense to start from scratch anyways, unless the goal is to encourage even more switches than we already have

[tall matrix]

Still looking forward to this update very excited to see it put into the game!

[warped leaf]

with 120 necromancy, i cast revive this thread!

[strange lance]

Progress update on the way, stay tuned

[hallow spoke]

Would it be strange to suggest dragons dropping 1 - 5 dragon dart tips rarely? Considering it's supposedly their nails?

And currently they're dropped by all sorrs of non-dragons

Not to be confused with orikalkum dart tips, obviously

[warped leaf]

lets hang tight on suggestions/feedback until breezy posts his updates

[glass parcel]

Breezy are you stepping into other projects this gamejam, or just going to focus on this one mainly?

[thin latch]

#design-chat message

This was a message yesterday on what breezy is trying to work on for this gamejam

[sacred blade]

[chilly rain]

Just read over the doc' and it looks like a good change!

Now, core fletching ranged weapons starting from Mahogany/Orikalkum will be upgraded via a Fletching Workbench, like those found in Burthorpe and in Fort Forinthry, and use the same creation mechanics as Eternal Magic ranged weapons.

Weapons can be upgraded (Mk.1 -> Mk. 5) with more logs giving increased experience...
Is there a reason for this starting so late and not matching what smithing is doing for melee? (ie, iron-steel tier to +1, mith-addy to +2, rune-ori +3, ..., with burial (equivalent of fletching's martial option) starting at addy/tier 40).
First impressions with this is it's a weird inconsistency, and having better-than-cheap-vendor options at low levels makes early fletching levels slightly more valuable.

Also amazing to see exp improvements with these Mk. X bows at lower tiers; it felt really weird to me that making lv. 50-ish ammo (broad arrows, rune bolts, etc) was vastly better than all levels of bow / crossbow options, even the much higher magic/elder ones.

[jaunty cosmos]

Somethingsomething not everything has to be 1:1 consistent. Same reason why wooden box can only store wood spirit at a certain grove upgrade compared to ore box's innate stone spirit storage.

[strange lance]

What Radiogamer said

[chilly rain]

Makes sense - enjoy the jam 😄

[strange lance]

Thank you! Will try to post an update on the project today

[bold wagon]

so excited for breezy to drop another banger

[eternal bison]

Please just be careful with the xp rates. Its okay for certain skills to be fast, especially if it requires a lot of gold and one should expect a skillcap raise above 99 to mean faster xp rates. The 110 fletching update clearly missed this with primal arrow nerfs. I worry this rebalance will significantly nerf xp rates especially at early and mid levels.

[vestal parrot]

i agree to a certain extent it doesn't have to match 1:1. but there should be an similar equivalent of it on its own. otherwise, you'll end up with one being superior than the other, when they all should be of the same experience.

i think leagues has proven just as much that melee is the superior style because mining and smithing is just that seamless and easy to train compared to ranged via fletching which is a pain to train and for the gear to attain

[jaunty cosmos]

I wouldn't be suprised if the xp gain scales proper from tier to tier. The difference would be that there are no upgrades up to T50.

[halcyon oasis]

Just a reminder to make feather packs available in free-to-play, especially with the potential xp nerfs to rune arrows/bolts. Thanks in advance! 🙂

[tiny nova]

Yes please ❤️

[novel berry]

yes please ❤️ also adding back the lady who sells bowstrings in taverly/burth would be greatly appriciated in ironmanmode. its the little things that matter!

[open crescent]

Alison Elmshaper! We f2p irons miss those daily bowstrings sooo much! She was a blessing!

[strange lance]

=====================

Hi all, please see #gamejam-fletching-retier where i've just posted the full design.

I've tried my best to work this in with Discord's formatting.

The last section is incomplete but i'll fill in the rest tomorrow then continue filling in as we discuss things here

===================

[hazy sand]

Elder Rune Crossbow works for Seers Village imo over Banite because the region isn't known for its Banite lore. Rather thats more of a Fremminik theme. I wouldn't be opposed to have some luminite/runite ore rocks hidden away in some of the more remotely underground areas by Seers to add to the diary.

[hallow spoke]

luminite could make sense in the elemental workshop mine, considering the furnace required lava to be hot enough

[hazy sand]

Thats true but touching up Elemental Workshop is a can of worms unless its a simple switch out imo.

[hallow spoke]

have brutal and fire arrows been taken into account with the rebalancing?

perhaps the 'Tune Banite Ore' spell should be renamed to 'Tune material', to match it working on more than banite nowadays

or Attune / Focus material

alternatively a 'Tune Anima' spell could work

[narrow shell]

Is the mod implying that Yew trees will no longer be choppable in f2p or just no longer be craftable into bows in f2p? And I guess they'll be replaced with Acadia?

[hallow spoke]

it feels a bit odd that one step creates 75 at once and another does 15, perhaps something to align the number with

might be nice if elder shafts also get a from of log efficiency perk, 15 / log is a bit weird when the next step up goes up to 30

for "Almost made in Ardougne", perhaps it could involve a divination step for divine locations / transmuting

[spare solar]

With the upgrading process no longer being added to the t60-90 weapons, will the t80 and t90 still have lower stat tiers to match base level banite and elder rune being t75 and t80? Could potentially use the shieldbow sight as a weapon sight to make magic/elder/banite/elderrune upgrade to a +4/+5 equivalent to the melee variants being t79 and t85

[jaunty cosmos]

The current gamejam is focused on re-tiering fletching. Nothing is said about woodcutting (and firemaking), so it's likely yew trees remaing choppable and burnable for F2P, but no longer fletchable. The only exception I could see are shafts, but that's kinda it.

[glass parcel]

I know we're trying to use existing wood, trees, etc.

I still think I dislike the level band of magic/yew becoming so high, especially when we hand out those resources so carelessly. I would rather have magic be level 50, and yew 40.

I know it's a lot but I would personally prefer to have separate trees/logs designed around FM, fletching, and construction. We have so many interesting trees out there irl, that it seems weird to limit it.

Padauk, purple heart, wenge, zebra wood, etc.. a lot to choose from

[narrow shell]

Thanks, Radio!

[narrow shell]

I do kind of agree about the level of Yew/Magic. It's weird to have them so high, and I don't think I like it. I'm not so sure about replacing them with new trees, but I'm not sure how else to fix it.

[low girder]

Will Firemaking also be retired? It's already in the same order so wouldn't need to change XP.

• Normal: 1
• Oak: 15 > 10
• Willow: 30 > 20
• Teak: 35 > 30
• Maple: 45 > 40
• Acadia: 47 > 50
• Mahogany: 50 > 60
• Yew: 60 > 70
• Magic: 75 > 80
• Elder: 90
• Eternal Magic: 100

[sour atlas]

Would lower level creation of core range weapons and ammunition have the similar fletching benefit as the 110 update ones?

[sour atlas]

A bolt from the blue achievement make sure to be rune, since rune are blue color or elder rune make sense

[still torrent]

Can we finally see sighted acacia and mahogany longbows?

I can see a sighted eternal magic longbow being tier 95 stats.

Since shieldbows are being removed, what about cosmetic preferences of having shields on bows?

[wraith bobcat]

Pre-script:
tl;dr:
I like niche rewards. Removing niche rewards because the combat system is too rigid to meaningfully fit them in (imo) says a lot about the combat system being too homogenous and its reward space being too small. I am not an EoC hater, but there is still a lot we lost in transition that was never really addressed. Perhaps the sight could augment abilities like other equipment does now, or serve its current purpose even more distinctly than it does now, or even go in an entirely different direction. Examples of all these in the not too long; did in-fact read: part 1-3 that follows.

Part 1:

As someone who really loves the weird and more niche reward space of games, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Shieldbow (previously Longbow (soon to be Longbow again?)) sight. I don't think it was ever considered to be particularly good even on release, but I would hate to see it just get removed. On the other hand, I acknowledge that the combat system as it stands has a really narrow and limited reward space with even core pieces of equipment being niche (see shields, to some extent tank gear as a whole, defenders, any number of weapon types of the same tier, etc.). I really hate how much "useless" gear we have in game. I would rather see the combat system evolve and open up to support more diversity than we currently have instead of just deleting things because the system can't be improved to have meaningful niches. Hearing that removal of niches is on the table as a solution to the combat system being too rigid definitely leaves me discouraged about the way the combat system is leaning. Maybe this is just a "me take", but homogeneity with limited meaningful choice does not make for a fun or engaging experience. Although to be fair I acknowledge the counterpoint that instead of a lot of meaningful gear choice we instead have a lot of meaningful choice in ability use. All that said, I don't really know in what way the sight can meaningfully be updated. I am not an elite player in any regard. I have just been around for a very long time. Looking back on my tenure I never cared about the meta, I cared about what was interesting and fun. My ideas will probably not have any meta implications, nor would I hope that they do. They are just ideas that are thematic or fun to consider (at least to me).

My first thought is to align it to what purpose it currently serves/served on release.

It could keep with its previous theming of increasing the bows accuracy and range, but perhaps somewhat more significantly to make it distinct. (e.g. +10-15 levels of accuracy and/or +3-4 tiles of range).
I see two issues with this though.

1. I am not the most familiar with the intricacies of combat, but I hazard to guess that weapon range doesn't have nearly as much value now as it did back when the sight was released. At lower levels where the sight would help, you are rarely fighting enemies that would be punished by being out of range like melee enemies. You aren't likely to remain outside of enemies' attack range if they use magic projectiles. I am sure its outside of the scope of this but perhaps if weapon ranged affected AOE range (like it does with melee) this would have more value. For example, if the bombard ability were able to hit any 9 enemies within your weapon's range from the target then a greater weapon range could be a big benefit.

2. Accuracy matters a lot until it doesn't matter at all. I don't have the data for this, but from my experience most places in the mid-end game accuracy doesn't really matter at all any more. Any hit-chance below 100% accuracy directly decreases your damage by the same amount, but anything above 100% has absolutely no benefit. In the mid/late game with all of the power we have there are few places where 100% hit-chance isn't a given. In the pre-EoC system it was not possible (or very difficult) to get to 100% accuracy so every bit of accuracy had some meaning. There was always opportunity to trade damage bonus for accuracy. There have been a small number of weapons released since EoC that have tried to implement this choice (gwd2 weapons for example), but overall more damage almost always feels more impactful. With enemy defense being too low across the board (in my opinion), hit-chances too high (in my opinion), and accuracy having a hard cap that is too easy to reach in contrast to damage, accuracy just isn't really a meaningful benefit if any amount of damage is being sacrificed unless the accuracy increase is overpowered and your original hit-chance was sufficiently below 100%. Again most definitely out of scope of this effort but perhaps a meaningful rework of over 100% accuracy would go a long way in opening up reward space for accuracy buffs.

Part 2:

My second thought goes to mimicking designs that already exist meaningfully in EoC. For example, have the sight augment some aspect of abilities. Some immediate ideas I had follow:

Snipe (fire a precise shot):
Maybe make it a guaranteed crit with the snipe ability, or make snipe's channel time shorter. I can see there being some issue with this since snipe is already augmented by nightmare gauntlets.

Dazing Shot/Greater Dazing shot & Salt the Wound:
Perhaps make dazing shot's hit chance reduction 40% instead of 10% since you have the ability to "aim" the shot for maximum effect. For Greater Dazing shot perhaps it could add 2 stacks of puncture and augment Salt the Wound to not require 50% adrenaline to activate.

Unload:
Instead of being a longbow sight could it be instead converted to a crossbow sight and augment the Unload to reduce the amount of adrenaline required to make it a bit more useful?

I can see some benefit from doing the above. I am sure the numbers are off, and perhaps making these changes would either be way too big a benefit for the effort of obtaining the sight, or way too small to make any difference.

Part 3:

My final thought goes to just having a bit more fun with ideas. Instead of trying to tie it to something that already exists or that it already does maybe doing something completely different.

For example, maybe making your accuracy penalty for wearing off-style gear significantly lower. In leagues, It was really fun seeing people wearing full elder rune and using magic/necromancy, or wearing full spirit bloom and running around with a scythe. I wouldn't mind seeing more gear mixing in the main game.

Another idea would be to have sighted bows get bonus damage/accuracy against monsters that are specifically weak to arrows, or perhaps convert the sight to a crossbow sight and apply the bonus against bolt weak targets (or both although I'm sure creating crossbow models with sights would probably make this a very low priority)

Maybe ranged could get its first aspect that can only be in effect with a sighted weapon equipped. Maybe something that synergizes with flanking/the nightmare gauntlent enchantment. Targets no longer need to be looking away to get the second snipe shot nor do they need to be looking away for binding shot and tight bindings to do increased damage (equivalent to flanking 2-3). These abilities would automatically get these benefits when the aspect was active. For snipe with nightmare gauntlets with the enchantment perhaps the second shot has increased damage or fires another additional shot when "flanking". For binding shot/tight bindings with flanking perhaps it fires twice if "flanking". So outside of flanking you get the damage bonus of just the aspect, but when flanking you get both hits: 1 that is equivalent to flanking 2-3 and the other that is equivalent to your flanking perk's level.

[sacred blade]

all the extra crap was neat when the combat system itself had no depth, with the combat system having depth the extra stuff is just bloat and more things that players have to look up

I guess this doesnt matter to you if you just revo++

[wraith bobcat]

@sacred blade I agree that EoC is more dynamic than pre EoC. Even though a ton of the game hasn’t been updated to make sense for the power we now have even at lower levels. I exclusively use manual because I really don’t like how revolution trivializes and obfuscates learning. That said I still find having a tiny number of meaningful gear choices to be boring.

[chilly rain]

I like the idea of +range or +crit chance on sighted bows (which thematically makes sense, since with a sight, you'd be more accurately able to hit weak points)

Couple questions which I don't think the posts in #gamejam-fletching-retier covered:

• Are tipped bolts going to change in some way? Not sure how makes sense but at the moment there are multiple gems that tip onto addy/rune - with more 'space', does it make sense to spread these out? That would let the new/higher tiers of ammo get the benefits of tipped effects.
• I was gonna mention Teak + Acadia tree availability in F2P but learned that there are options for both currently which is awesome! 😄

[wraith bobcat]

@ttaM by +range do you mean ranged damage? Or weapon range?

If you mean +damage: how many tiers do you think it should be? Like would you lean towards the increased damage bumping the sighted bow’s damage to be greater than the next bow’s damage when unsighted? Or would it always be strictly less damage than the next bow’s unsighted damage?

I think either would be fine. Crit chance could be sort of fun. Damage bonus is fine if a bit boring. Absolutely no offense to the idea as it is completely valid and in general fine as a technique to make a better weapon overall. It is just a bit boring since it is the bog standard default answer to making something stronger.

[chilly rain]

I meant distance - like being able to hit things further away

[wraith bobcat]

Aah okay 🙂

I like the +range conceptually. I just don’t know how useful it is in EoC as compared to how it was pre-EoC 😊

I can’t remember if the document said. Are longbows going to be equivalent to shield bows ( i.e. Lower damage and considered a shield?) If not how will they be distinct from short bows?

[chilly rain]

Altho' if using for either damage or accuracy I would say at most +4 levels - so a Mk. 5 bow (+5) with a sight (+1-4) would still be slightly worse than the tier above.

Other options could be rather than attaching it to a bow that you use, it could be donated to the fort guardhouse or put into the slayer lodge (like the slayer helmet) or sacrificed in some other way (donate to lord cadarn or the ranged guild to learn some special technique or something?) for a tiny game-wide passive buff you can set and forget. Would need to be tiny if applying to the boss drop weapons too which are already very strong. 1 tick less to charge snipe, a smaller penalty for cancelling it early, or +1% on damage or something

[wraith bobcat]

Definitely agree that a game wide passive would need to be fairly insignificant as we already have so many game wide passives and ultra powerful weapons that would make a decently strong passive way too powerful.

[chilly rain]

Ye, if it was stronger I feel like it would need some sort of drawback. First thought being part of a new relic power (meaning taking 1 of the 3 slots from something else)

[wraith bobcat]

Agreed. I’m sure it is quite the headache trying to find the “right” answer since every player’s right answer is going to be at least slightly different haha

[primal badge]

Bowstrings!

Availability of all F2P logs within F2P boundaries is important for continuity as well (for instance, F2P Irons have no way of attaining Magic Logs for War's Retreat Bonfire, despite it being a F2P unlock)

[chilly rain]

They are part of KBD's drop pool aren't they? Altho' gathering 1k from that sounds dreadful 😅

[primal badge]

Only in P2P, alas

[chilly rain]

Ah that's unfortunate. I remember getting magic logs in F2P from Mistress Fara way back for turning in the daily challenges before that system was reworked 😅

[agile orchid]

I know the mods won't see this but please please please please don't make 10 different types of arrow shafts. I don't want shafts, oak shafts, willow shafts, acadia shafts etc all taking up space in my bank, it will be so annoying, please don't do this thank you

[sour atlas]

There will not be different type of shaft for all older logs. See this picture from the link: #gamejam-fletching-retier message

[agile orchid]

oh awesome! sorry missed that picture and I just remembered from the last discussion they seemed pretty intent on making different types of shafts

[sour atlas]

I just hope f2p war's retreat bonfire does not get nerfed due to higher level logs.

[hollow quartz]

yeah it was poorly received so we are back to regular shafts

and the two fancy ones for some reason (might be worth removing?)

[narrow shell]

I have a feeling they are moving towards making magic and yew p2p completely. No confirmation, it just feels like it.

Based on this re-tier, but also based on the fact that when they did the woodcutting re-tier (last year?) they made it so acadia wood box was f2p, but not yew wood box (even though f2p could cut yew trees). Seemed odd to me at the time, but seeing this fletching re-tier which AGAIN excludes yew from f2p, it's starting to feel purposeful.

And if that's the case, then you might not need to worry about getting magic logs because the magic log fire might not be f2p to begin with in the future....

[sacred blade]

What happens with Yew bows since they're F2P?
They will become P2P since other things will be replacing them in those tiers.

[narrow shell]

Yes, that's one of the things I'm referring to.

[vestal parrot]

i would draw this problem back to weapons having no "identity" to begin with that sets them apart from each other

aside from aesthetic, availability to attain, and weapon range, what's the difference between a throwing knife, dart, throwing axe and javelin?

absolutely none.

same concept applies to shortbow/longbow, there's no real distinct function that sets them apart where it matters significantly or noticeably in combat. 7 range versus 9 range? only on very rare instances do we see the benefits of having a longer reach.

[craggy coral]

Seeing the answer about Shieldbow Sights, wouldn't it make more sense to just renaming them to longbow sights, which was their original name anyways?

[worldly plank]

"Longbow sight" before EoC

[wraith bobcat]

Precisely! This is one of the many things that we lost in the transition to EoC. I think we definitely agree on the root of the issue.

We lost the identity of gear distinction. The longbow sights at some point had a purpose because it was an upgrade to a single distinct weapon class namely longbows. That class had some unique place/purpose even if other weapons had must larger purposes.

To throw it away because “we can’t find a place for it” is discouraging to me. It suggests that the general attitude towards the approach to combat system is to make less interesting and narrower upgrade paths.

What I hear is “we don’t care to make gear variety have distinct purpose, so we are not going to put effort into doing so.” I guess I’m a hold out hoping for something different. I would much rather see content designed for longbows specifically to excel and then the sight would no longer be nearly useless. I want to see content geared towards specific gear instead of generally having very few interesting choices to make. Cinderbanes are one of the very few examples of this done well in EoC.

[oblique garnet]

That was +1 range right? That was pretty nice.

[bold wagon]

some variety is more effort than its worth, like maces and warhammers, or battleaxes and longswords, ranged also suffers from this bloat, darts, javelins, throwing axes, throwing knives, throwing weapons in general would it be neat if they all did something slightly different from eachother? sure, of course. would anybody actually care about this base functionality when gear viability is far more determined by unique passives and actives? no.

as for the discussion at hand, sights could take a book out of how godswords work, although some bows don't currently conform to this, i like how magic bows trade their special attack (active benefit) for 5 tiers of damage and accuracy (passive benefit)

i think the minimum work that needs to be put in to keep sights in the game would be the following

• give elder bows and eternal magic bows special attacks, there's no reason these bows which are stronger than post-retier magic bows shouldn't have this, its totally fine for bows below magic to be excluded from special attacks and sights if giving it to them would delay the update
• have attaching the sight trade the special attack for some passive benefit, 5 tiers of accuracy and damage could work if we're okay with eternal magic bows being t95 with no effects, but other passive-based effects could also be cool, see [[swift gloves]] for some generic examples

[forest path]

Wiki links found:
https://runescape.wiki/w/Swift_gloves

[worldly plank]

"The maple longbow's ranged attack bonus is increased from +29 to +110 (3.79x) and the magic longbow's is increased from +69 to +140 (2.03x), a greater bonus than the dark bow. The bow's attack speed is also increased by 1."

[chilly rain]

I forgot swift gloves did so much - I think I mentally shelved the dom tower gloves since never was much a fan of the degrade-to-nothing type gear. Also the reason I've not upgraded to sirenic

[oblique garnet]

That's pretty sick.
Giving it a +10 tier damage bonus could be cool.

[jaunty cosmos]

That’s just a ‘+1 wood tier at home’,

[graceful rivet]

Had some thoughts about the arrow shaft thing, which I know has been shelved now but:

I was initially opposed to it but I've warmed up to it now. It's a bit weird that Elder Wood and Elder Magic wood are outliers.

I think my main concern with it is how intuitive it may be - how easy will it be to tell what type of wood you need for each arrow type? It's the same issue I have with incense, where it doesn't feel like there is too much rhyme or reason to it and I have to consult the wiki every time I want to craft something. How easy will it be to tell what kind of wood adamant arrows needs, for example?

If that issue can be ironed out then I'm in favour of the idea tbh. But I think that is a pretty big issue that I'm not sure can be resolved very effectively.

[unique plank]

I don't think that's the right way to translate that mechanic.
Magic shortbows were better against low-defence targets, and rune crossbows were better against high-defence targets. The contemporary wiki article states that the sighted magic longbow was comparable to a rune crossbow.
It'd be closer to have all longbows have -10 tiers of damage, and the sight give them +20 tiers of accuracy
That said, this is a skilling rework, not a combat rework.

[tiny nova]

Please consider feather stock changes too 🙂 Free-to-play barely has access to feathers.

[open crescent]

This too 👆

[vast pecan]

For quest stuff, potentially big chompy bird hunting or whatever the rantz quest is called? Making the ogre bow and arrows is part of the quest if memory serves

[strange lance]

What would need changed?

I don't think anything would because it's not affected by any of the wood changes?

[vast pecan]

If memory serves the creation process uses weird numbers per action though that’s probably more of a stretch goal than a core aim

[strange lance]

Yeah possibly one to change, definitely a stretch goal

Did that quest the other day in leagues

[vast pecan]

Also would brutal arrows need changing if their core arrow’s level changes

[strange lance]

and like 3rd time doing it this year

I dont see us addressing brutal arrows this very moment given how niche those are

But good one to note down for future

[vast pecan]

Does the fire arrow step in underground pass have a level requirement?

[strange lance]

Not from memory

Since all you do is light an arrow you have using the materials inside the dungeon

Wiki isn't showing any fletching req either

[low girder]

On dragon arrows/bolts: Dragon bolts do not actually exist in RS3 (though they do exist in OSRS). Just dragonstone-tipped rune bolts, which should probably be renamed to "Dragonstone bolts".

[strange lance]

oh yeah

Will adjust on the doc

https://runescape.wiki/w/Dragon_bolt_tips

Why are even these just called "dragon"

[low girder]

Character name limitations at the time, presumably.

[strange lance]

No changes planned to WC atm

[strange lance]

nope

[strange lance]

Elder Rune might be best given the achievement is in the elite diary

[low girder]

Dragon arrows and Dragon darts are also oddities in that they're made from dragon talons and not dragon metal.

[strange lance]

Yeah might just be best to increase the number since we're not doing levelling benefits for 1-99 right now

[strange lance]

That's a good question, i'd imagine so in terms of lower stat tiers

[strange lance]

This is why we'd have to rebalance things like drop tables and shops. And tbh beyond that maybe even question if we should do a login-check to replace them with the equivalent tiers or something else similar to what we did for the M&S rework

[hallow spoke]

Will the ranged guild get any adjustments, since it kinda doubles as a fletching guild?

As in, shops etc.

[strange lance]

In what sense? The shop?

[hallow spoke]

Furnace to smith bolt tips / arrowheads perhaps

Even if there are others nearby

[strange lance]

It goes up to Rune right now which seems appropriate, only thing that i'd possibly change is stock quantity

Tbh i'd much rather just rework that guild to look and work better

[hallow spoke]

Full project on it's own

Could be fun to help construct new stuff like more / higher level targets or workshop

Oh, perhaps more farming than fletching, but picking flax

Might be nice if we could farm it, or pluck multiple at once from the floor at higher farming levels

A way to increase crossbow tendon production would also be nice

[hollow quartz]

flax farming 👀

actually I have a lot of flax but idk where it's from

[hallow spoke]

Like some hunter animal who's meat can be made into 3-5 crossbow strings

Rather than the 1 beef can give

Perhaps graakhs etc.

Would also tie in nicely with the hunter crossbow

Dragon arrows currently have a niche in them enhancing darkbow spec

Perhaps it could simply enhance mid level bow specs, like seercull

Dragon (nail) darts could also get a spec to differentiate them from orikalkum darts

[strange lance]

Potentially, but there is something nice about higher end ones forcing acquisition of elder logs

But it is one to question for sure

[hollow quartz]

this isn't quite related but someone was suggesting that enchanted notepaper be magic logs instead, given the magic notepaper connection

[hallow spoke]

This will be feature creep but..
Wooden / leather quivers would be nice and could mainly just be recolors

Baseline ammo storage that you can set active ammo in

Pernix quiver would still add the 2nd ammo function

[hollow quartz]

I'm not sure it's necessary given you can just equip arrows

[hallow spoke]

Also, modernizing the bolt pouch would be nice

[hollow quartz]

bolt pouch lmao

I was writing the storage items page and was in awe of how bad it was

[hallow spoke]

Yea, arcane lore from beyond time immemorable that it even exists

[hollow quartz]

so much so I couldn't even put it in the quivers section

[strange lance]

was actually discussing quivers with the combat lads the other day, if i have time this gamejam gonna write a design up

That and armour spike pouch

[hallow spoke]

Anyway, being able to just store ammo in it's own container would be nice, and locking ammo switching to out of combat, would prevent too much powercreep

[strange lance]

but thats a separate thing

[hallow spoke]

I think i posted a quiver draft on here a year or 3 ago

[hollow quartz]

even more unrelated but armour spikes kind of feel like they could be make into a full on aspect (after a buff), with a counterpart defensive aspect being armour plates

[hallow spoke]

Oh, lower level range defenders

Could be a nice addition at the ranged guild

Simple recolor of the tainted repriser could work

Or perhaps from the training camp ogres north of Ardougne

[vast pecan]

Would there be any achievement diary changes planned? Make a rune xbow in ardy elite sticks out in my head as pretty low reqs compared to the standard elite req

[jaunty cosmos]

If we're talking about shops:
https://runescape.wiki/w/Archery_shops

For instance, the dwarven mine crossbow shop seems to be focused on crossbows and parts up to T40 and T50 and would need to be given acadia stocks to be consistent with that.

[hallow spoke]

Listed as being looked at, check #gamejam-fletching-retier

[strange lance]

yeah nice catch

[glass parcel]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Bow_string_spool

Any chance for this as a stretch goal?

[hollow quartz]

we have fungal bowstrings

this would kinda obsolete them so it would have to be a very late reward

[low girder]

on the subject of the ranging guild, these exist despite being useless since 2006 https://runescape.wiki/w/Barbed_bolts

[vestal parrot]

i'm quite okay with reducing the content we have if it is truly no longer needed.

while it is understandably disappointing to see an item like that tossed aside because it is no longer functional, it could definitely be repurposed.

but right now, i don't see how putting it as a priority to be repurposed would serve a longer benefit for the game.

i think tidying up the current stuff we have first, takes priority, before we look at the less important ones - and i mean in the sense of diversifying the base gear first, before branching out further into smaller subsets of items like longbow sight

[vestal parrot]

should just remove entirely from game... why is there a need for more than 1 type of the same tier, when there's no functional difference?

[hallow spoke]

Could give em a chance to apply a bleed

As early 'special ammo'

Or a non gem bolt tip

[low girder]

I mean standard bolts and pearl bolts were the only other ones that existed at the time.

[hallow spoke]

Beyond bronze bolts though

[vestal parrot]

would prefer if these were scaleable, as all ammo tips should be

[hallow spoke]

Well they're bought as tips

Like ascension tips, they only go on bronze bolts atm though

[hollow quartz]

yeah the non-endgame special ammo is in a weird place with the way it gets tier capped

[vestal parrot]

i had suggested this back during WDB also. would be awesome if they truly decided that we need effects to make stuff functionally distinct

[hallow spoke]

Tbh, i've been advocating for making tips a seperate equip from the bolts themselves for a while

Making em modular would let ya tweak ammo in interesting ways

Flights that increase attack speed or range

Light or heavy shafts for more damage or range

Heads for tier / damage

Tips for on hit effect

Would basically make ammo into a loadout setting

That reminds me

Please add bane ammo for slayer mobs that require leaf-bladed weapons

Like turoths and kurasks

As a higher lvl alternative

[mild pagoda]

The nightmare of X tip + Y Shaft + Z feather combos generating like 200 combos that now all have individual variables and params under the hood and 4 of them being used

[hallow spoke]

That's what makes it fun

[mild pagoda]

I get the want for modular custom equipment but its a lot of overhead for very little payoff tbh

[vestal parrot]

What happens with other ammunition such as Araxyte Arrows, Wild Arrows, Blight Bolts, Dark Arrows, Stalker Arrows, Wyvern Spines etc.

gonna say this again:

• pvm dropped ammo (or non-fletched from the "base" types) should be tips that have effects and scalable

[hallow spoke]

It does remove the finished ammo from the item pool, by making it an equipped loadout of the constituents instead

[tiny nova]

I’m a little confused how we ended up with raising Yews to level 70 and now adjusting all related content to 70 when it could have been a lot easier just pushing Yew down to 50 instead?

[vestal parrot]

then why release the items in the first place, when they'll also eventually be redundant?

if both outcomes are the same, is the objective to change the outcome, or reduce its impact?

[hollow quartz]

it's possible if it works like a gizmo system, but imo still not worth the trouble

[hallow spoke]

I'd honestly expect it to simplify the system, once all the params have been set

But i say that with no insight into the system

Specifically for ammo though

[mild pagoda]

wut? I was responding to Vons idea of having you being able to custom make hundreds of combination of arrows when realistically a handful of combos would be used and we would have generated hundreds of database items we would need to upkeep and maintain on the offchance they break something?

[hallow spoke]

Not all gear

It'd be no different than the current ammo, but modular within it's own sub system wouldn't it?

[vestal parrot]

i know. which is kind of asking, "why don't we have onyx-tipped orik bolts (t60) onyx-tipped necro bolts (t70), etc.", right?

of which the answer is as you have shared

[hallow spoke]

It'd pull the entirety of statted ammo into it's own sub tables, with the end stats being whatever you set to equip

Def. Not for this jam but more of a food for thought long term

[vestal parrot]

to which i followed-up with, then wouldn't that also go with the question about those pvm-dropped ammo? wouldn't araxyte arrows compete with elder rune arrows? both are t90?

[hallow spoke]

Araxyte arrows should have a small bonus when used with noxious bow

Like chance to poison on stun or something

[vestal parrot]

kind of like god-arrows with god-bows, right?
however, wouldn't that just be restrictive?
you'd never then really want to use it outside of nox bow to min-max it

[hallow spoke]

Depends on the effect and how much impact it'd have

Maybe it's 50% chance on any weapon, by nox guarantees it

Will just make it a bit more consistent to get the target poisoned, without going overboard

[glass parcel]

I think the main issue with those is that they compete with dino arrow making, so they're less desirable to craft.

[sacred blade]

since the shieldbow class is getting removed, I imagine the dark bow would end up becoming a pretty decent ranged weapon post-update?

[jaunty cosmos]

What exactly is the technical difference between current shieldbows and upcoming longbows?

[sacred blade]

a shieldbow is like a 1 handed bow + shield

aka awful

[vestal parrot]

longer range or maybe difference in accuracy/damage than shortbows?

[jaunty cosmos]

I mean, I'd expect some kind of balancing difference. Longbows likely higher range, but slightly lower DPS or something.

[vestal parrot]

probably not? because an extra 2 or 1 range is hardly a benefit for majority of the game

unless you can literally outrange opponents or fire around obstacles

[sacred blade]

also by extension the strykebow would also become decent

[jaunty cosmos]

I mean, if it's just a cosmetic flavor swap, then sure.

[sacred blade]

could be a pretty big deal since ranged weapon progression is garbage

especially if you want bows

[vestal parrot]

i wouldn't mind the extra range. but then, there's no benefit to having shortbows.

we end up the same situation of 2h versus scythe

[sacred blade]

for irons, you unlock them faster

as is written, you want to go out of your way for 6 fletching levels for +1 range?

[vestal parrot]

i'm unable to comment for iron mode. but for main game, functionally, the difference is almost neglible

and if what you say for irons is true, that "obstacle" is only temporary. once you reach endgame, it's all about combat functionality

[quaint plover]

Great stuff Breezy. 😃 With shieldbows now becoming into longbows, don't forget about the hexhunter to be included as they were previously shieldbows in dungeoneering if you haven't noted it down already.

[sacred blade]

and the sag longbow

[quaint plover]

^^^^

[narrow shell]

Thanks for the clarification, appreciate it 🙂

[idle nebula]

#gamejam-fletching-retier message
@strange lance just to let you know, about catherby fletching shop.

[craggy coral]

with the shieldbow removal, will it be imposible to use a shield with arrows at the same time?

[vestal parrot]

ye, that would give crossbows the benefit from dual wielding

[idle nebula]

or use Boneshield

makes all other shields irrelivent tbh.

[vestal parrot]

the meme of combat in rs3 is you should never be using a shield except to reso or barricade, unless its a spirit shield

[idle nebula]

even then tbh.

spirit shield is quickly becoming obsolete too.

and reso/barricade you just use Nexus + Greater Bone Shield + Mallotops

nothing damages you enough to be concerned about Spirit Shield anymore.

[craggy coral]

I wonder if it's actually possible to wear a shield and a bow at the same time, like a d'hide shield along with a bow. How much clipping it would cause since both go in the left arm. I never liked the shieldbows' looks.

[narrow shell]

I'm curious. With Yew bows being replaced with Acadia bows in the lineup, does this mean Acadia bow stats will be similar (if not the same) as current Yew bow stats?

What about disassembly? Will the base percentage of junk in getting dextrous comp be the same for Acadia shortbows as current Yew shortbows?

Yews were my go to for disassembly

[strange lance]

Yeah just imagined them flipped around

except maybe for disassembly, we'd shift the chances around because Acadia's would be a lower level bow now, so Yew would still be better

[narrow shell]

But still probably better than Maple in disassembly, since it would be higher than Maple?

[narrow shell]

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it 🙂

[strange lance]

yup

[chilly rain]

A few clue scrolls use shieldbows atm so text + hidey-holes may need adjusting

[hazy sand]

Thats a good catch, hidey holes and emotes use em

[hallow spoke]

salamanders will be untouched correct?

because their worn models, could probably be swapped out for the newer models

pretty sure eoc killed their unique attack anim, so that wouldn't be a blocker

[sullen gale]

Chargebows appear to have a higher damage than similarly tiered bows, since chargebows include 'free' arrows.
Should we change the tooltip to display different info for bow damage and arrow damage?

It's a larger project than this game jam but IMO item tooltips are long overdue for a cleanup and rethink in general. There are so many misleading stats on tooltips it's gotten ridiculous, it's well past the point where even devs don't realize when you guys make an error because tooltips are so useless at conveying what the item actually does. Pretty much only testing reveals that at this point.

The only true thing about the "tier" stat is that it reflects the required level to equip - not the armor/weapon tier, like many players would think intuitively. An item can display "tier 99" and do tier 85 damage, or tier 99 and do tier 90 damage (mk5 vs regular eternal magic stuff, as an example). There is regularly great confusion on ranged and magic weapons as to how their damage stats work because they're obfuscated. Additionally, attack speed is distantly relevant for autoattack timing/debuffs (mostly for more invested players) but not super relevant for EoC gameplay, and then the damage stat on weapons is autoattack damage rather than ability damage, so the tooltip of a drygore rapier displays higher damage than a drygore mace. For the average player, there's more disinformation on equipment tooltips than useful information some of the time.

[narrow shell]

....

...So today I learned that not all weapons in a specific tier necessarily have the same/similar/close stats like I thought they did.

Although, to be fair, I mostly do skilling and not pvm. So I'm not sure I paid real close attention before

[glass parcel]

• What happens with other ammunition such as Araxyte Arrows, Wild Arrows, Blight Bolts, Dark Arrows, Stalker Arrows, Wyvern Spines etc.

They should have effects, similar to enchanted crossbow bolts, or elder god arrows.

Traditional ammo should just be the base line, alternative ammo for the tier should be the upgrade.

[scarlet sphinx]

Some random ideas for arrows is give them target specific effects. Kinda like Jas Dragonbane.

dark arrows - extra 10% damage against slayer creatures while on a task (change to tier 95 or tier 100 arrows)
stalker arrows - extra 20-30% damage against stalker creatures (change to tier 95 or tier 100 arrows)
wild arrows - extra 20% damage against wilderness slayer creatures while on a wilderness slayer task (change to tier 95 or tier 100 arrows)
araxyte arrows - extra 20-30% damage against spiders (change to tier 95 or tier 100 arrows)

which would focus on arrows being more "type monster appropriate". Perfect for an archer to use different types of arrows that are more effective against x y z targets like Demonbane and Dragonbane.

Ascension Bolts - Extra damage against ascension
Blight Bolts - Extra damage against Grove Creatures or Solak
Wyvern Spine - Could possibly be a wyrmfire extra damage. Similar to Dragonstone Bak Bolts

That way there is justification to use them but there's still a reason to use the fletchable arrows if it has no effect on your target

[scarlet sphinx]

On subject of tooltips, I strongly believe tooltips need to be updated to not be confusing. Ability Damage is important than autodamage. And it's hard to remember what tier of damage something is if you can't remember what damage number is what tier

Maybe it's just me but shieldbow has been quite useful in niche scenarios where I want to benefit from turtling 4 and still be able to attack at the same time without sacrificing another inventory. Scenarios where I used a turtling 4 strykebow is at Zuk and Unorthodox Raksha.
I get there's bone shield now and will definitely miss it pre bone shield era.

Early on, shieldbows definitely feel out of place so their removal wouldn't be much of an issue. I do know one quest needs a very specific shieldbow too: https://runescape.wiki/w/Signed_oak_shieldbow
I presumed that changes to a longbow.

However, I would vote to keep special shieldbows like strykebow or dark bow even.

Though what would happen with shieldbow sights from daemonheim?

Just to summarize what I suggest that's not related to the arrows:

• Adjust tooltips to display more important accurate information to not make tiers confusing like shown in the picture above
• Change shortbows to longbows . This would make it the standard range that ranged will have from beginning to end
• Remove all shieldbows fletched with wood.
• Keep special niche shieldbows like strykebow or dark bow.
• Remove shieldbow sight???
• Turn Signed Oakshieldbow into a Signed Oak Longbow.

[scarlet sphinx]

I have a strykebow with turtling 4 perk on it, what happens to the perk?

[sullen gale]

probably the same thing the last time strykebows were adjusted: you keep a legacy version of the weapon with now-impossible perks.

[unique plank]

We have a solution in want of a problem, the shieldbow sight. And a problem, it'd be nice for the dark bow to both be a physical spec weapon and be a shield that fires arrows
Maybe the shieldbow sight could convert the it from a shieldbow to a longbow?

[molten hill]

is the solution to shieldbow sight not to just refund tokens

I don't get the problem

[unique plank]

As far as I can tell, the longbow sight was never good
It just buffed unusable weapons to rival crossbows, at a high token price
But some players imagined they were good, and feel nostalgic about them. If we can find a place for them, it'd be nice

Kind of like a lot of melee weapon specs were never good, but it's nice that they were buffed

[hazy sand]

It was good but only for pre-eoc pvp

not even sure if its still meta for f2p pvp

[unique plank]

While I, and many other people in this thread, use EoFs, a Pernix quiver and greater bone shield everywhere, this thread deals with ranged gear progression. So issues like physical spec weapons and ranged shields are relevant.
The dark bow is currently the accessible augmentable shieldbow. I used to use it at Nex and AG.
Ranged lacks a good physical spec weapon. A longbow Dark bow, t80 magic shortbow, or t80 magic longbow would be good fits.
So we have the question of whether the ranged shield is more important than the physical spec weapon. Should the Dark bow be a shieldbow or a longbow?
I'm proposing that we keep the Dark bow as a shieldbow, and introduce the Dark bow (sighted) as a longbow. I'd hope that that would be acceptable to the people that like the longbow sight, the people that want a physical ranged spec weapon, and the people that want augmentable shieldbows.

[sturdy knot]

If it's not been suggested, how about making the longbow(shieldbow) sight into an ability upgrade for Snipe?

[hollow quartz]

hmm

interesting idea given ranged has a weak earlygame

[sturdy knot]

Instead of trying to use a defibrillator on an incredibly niche item

Just some ideas off the cuff could be:

• Grants Snipe some crit chance+damage
• Piercing effect, as in a straight line aoe, potentially multiple hits on big targets
• Applies a timed debuff like Scripture of Jas to cash in on incoming Ranged damage

[hallow spoke]

could be a pocket item that gives +1 attack range for ranged weapons

[hollow quartz]

maybe more damage with greater distance?

(I would like ranged stuff to play with distance more in general, since range is a mobile style)

[hallow spoke]

upgrade that gives 1% crit chance, per tile to the target

natural synergy with longer ranged weapons

while also letting blowpipe / thrown weapons have a bit more distance

[hollow quartz]

that's def too weak especially in the early game

[hallow spoke]

i mean, 10 tile range would equate 10% crit chance

if ya stay at that distance

[hollow quartz]

yeah but it's for a single attack. compare that with regular fury

[hallow spoke]

i meant as a pocket slot passive item

not for just snipe

[hollow quartz]

ohh

[sturdy knot]

It would be on all ranged abilities

[hollow quartz]

sorry confused this with gsnipe

[sturdy knot]

Which is nice I suppose

[hallow spoke]

darts / thrown axes would go from 4 to 5 range

javelins, knives and stakes to 6

[hollow quartz]

actually increased range is very suited to being an invention perk

[hallow spoke]

blowpipe death lotus darts to 7, etc.

highground :

• you have +1 range

or if ya wanna be silly make it rank 1-5

14 tile long bow range

think there was a mechanical reason capping attack range

not sure

[sturdy knot]

I don't know off the top of my head but I think you would have issues with mobs rendering properly for targeting?

I know if you go far enough away from Zamorak his auto attacks can't reach you.

[scarlet sphinx]

If there is one type of feedback I want to give about ranged progression.
In Leagues, I pretty much tiered up to rune arrows and magic shortbow.

In theory, I could've bought Dark Arrows and Elder Shortbow to use outside of leagues. But I pretty much was stuck with rune arrows and magic shortbow until crystal bow. Then later, I just skip all other tiers and go straight to dinarrows with Eternal Magic Shortbow mk5. T95 arrows instantly because other arrow types are locked behind slayer or bosses.

When I did a "Bank Pin Locked Challenge", again I went with Elder Shortbow, and dinarrows (this was before eternal magic tree update) because other ways to get arrows were locked behind slayer or bosses.

I think Dark Bow as a Longbow is good. Then the shield sight from dungeoneering shop can be used to turn it into a shieldbow. (Don't forget custom coloured dark bows too..)
What also happens to Saradomin and Guthix Bow since they are also classed as shieldbows along with composites.

[sacred blade]

didnt know those were shieldbows too

ranged suddenly gets a lot of good midlevel weapons when the shieldbow class is removed lol

[scarlet sphinx]

I think dark bow (sight) should be a shieldbow and so does strykebow. Everything else can be turned into a longbow. Including the signed oak shieldbow.

[hallow spoke]

if shieldbows were preserved, it'd make more sense for it to require smithable shield of sorts

a sightscope, ain't exactly a defensive add-on

[toxic cedar]

I know this is mostly about fletching, but the way ammunition is for bakriminel bolts, and enchanted bolts in general when it comes to the Ranged skill is absolutely terrible. Need to just go back to being able to use enchanted rune bolts at any level from level 50 range on up, and just let the damage tiers go up, rather than lock someone out of using the onyx bolts(e) until level 80 range.

It's just really silly.

Same thing with the bakriminel bolts. Just let them all be equipped at 80, and have the damage scale up to 99.

Lastly, it's hilarious that at level 92 range blightbound crossbows have a passive that you literally cannot utilize until level 99 range.
-facedesk-

[hollow quartz]

^^^

ranged should take a lesson from magic in this regard

[vestal parrot]

i'd argue that defenders should be a base item available from the start for all styles to access

[strange lance]

thank you!

[strange lance]

Will take a look, thank you!

[strange lance]

yeah unrelated to this at but some of this are things we've been discussing/working on recently. You'll see bits of it in due time

[strange lance]

It's not entirely out the question, but we most likely won't be doing specific effects for each kind. It's not the direction we want combat to go in as it introduces too much bloat in a system that already needs some tlc

I'll note down the example effects though should this sort of thing come up

[hallow spoke]

Wiki has a list with archer shops https://runescape.wiki/w/Archery_shops
Crossbow shop in dwarven mine & keldagrim come to mind

[strange lance]

Yeah i had a look yesterday and noted down some things. I wasn't gonna look at increasing stock quantity on all of them but was thinking today it'd be a nice QoL to up them a bit

[hallow spoke]

Thought about gem bolt tips in either gem shops or bolt shops?

Or allowing them to be transmuted back into full gems?

For like 1.25x the amount produced / gem + some divine energy

[strange lance]

yeah nice idea in general, won't be something we do for this i don't think but will note it down for sure

no to transmuting back to gems

[hallow spoke]

Fair enough

[strange lance]

Is not in the ballpark of this update

[hallow spoke]

That reminds me, might wanna note down to check fragment bolt damage

I think it doesn't properly apply the modified damage against ascension targets

Atleast for abilities, the damage addition is somewhat against their favor

They should work as tier 80, but seem to run into the tier 50 cap

[simple sinew]

If the Gnomish Fixed Device is being looked at (level retiering) can it also be made universally reclaimable after Plaques End?

[twilit iris]

With Acadias being highest tier in f2p soon for fletching, it needs to be balanced with the woodcutting as there's only one spot currently for F2P to cut Acadias can this be looked into especially for irons, along with goblin raids possible changing from yew log drops to Acadia ? Otherwise it won't be balanced enough

[sacred blade]

there seems to be a ton of non-interactable palm trees in the desert that can be replaced with acadias

[twilit iris]

Yes agreed, would be best to make use of the area

[craggy coral]

Kinda tengential question about brutal arrows: does their effect only work on Zogres and Skogres? could it be extended to zombies and skeletons in general?

[jaunty cosmos]

Small thing, but sentinel outfit option to consume logs for fletching currently doesn't work for trees who do not have stocks and bows to fletch. For instance, this option doesn't work currently on acadia trees, only firemaking does. That would need to be updated when the new fletching items are added.

[oblique garnet]

What happens with other ammunition such as Araxyte Arrows, Wild Arrows, Blight Bolts, Dark Arrows, Stalker Arrows, Wyvern Spines etc.

Honestly, just remove them from the game if they aren't gonna do anything to compete with regular arrows/bolts.
Could also have them dropped as complete products (instead of tips, just the whole arrow/bolt).
That way there is a decision making in: Am I sourcing ammo from skilling, or am I gonna source them from pvm?

Alternatively: Give that ammo a +10% accuracy/damage against the source dropper / area. Minor special effect, to keep them interesting.

Araxyte arrows are more effective (than same tier) vs Araxxor/Araxxi
Wild arrows more effective in the wildy
Blight bolts more effective in the grove
Stalker arrows vs stalker creatures
Wyvern spines vs (undead) wyverns

[hallow spoke]

They compete with base ammo in that they're (generally) a secondary drop

Consider them as ammo refunding, when using range to farm the source

[oblique garnet]

Then it would be more useful as a complete product.
I think it could easily be swapped out for the bolts (unf) or arrow heads of the same tier made with fletching.
Reduces amount of items in database to be checked.

[vagrant shell]

Due to leagues, I realised that some clue steps need their text changed with gamejam so they now refer to longbow

• Easy emote clue at Legends Guild
• Easy emote clue at Draynor crossroads
• Medium emote clue at Morytania Mausoleum

Some quest dialogue that refers to shieldbow that will need correction:

• Ghosts Ahoy has Robin signing a shieldbow to progress. Both Robin and Ak-Haranu have dialogue related to it.

[sour atlas]

Yew logs should be an outlier for now, I do not think yew logs should be p2p. Like Eiki said having more area for acadia would be good, or expand on f2p expansion like north desert has acadia trees.

Yew trees and logs are 21 years old being f2p, will be 22 years old for being f2p in march. Plus it would be huge nerf for war's retreat bonfire boost, hard achievement for lumbridge uses the yew logs and they do not cost alot being f2p.

[hallow spoke]

bit out of left field, but perhaps Bolas should be converted to an off-hand item, or should work like bomb vials

having a 0 damage item equipped in the main-hand, as a switch while juggling abilities is a bit weird

would also kinda make them work as an off-hand to the Sagaie, which used to have a distance based damage bonus

the production speed on both could also probably do with a looking at

[vestal parrot]

javelines should be what and how sagaie works by default

[shy ocean]

what is the difference between shortbows and longbows? since shieldbows are being changed into longbows

[hallow spoke]

Attack speed and range basically

[grim bear]

but in the end attack speed is only relevant in legacy mode, right?

specifically, when using auto-attacks

[hallow spoke]

Pretty much

Might change when they update combat to be more like necro

[jaunty cosmos]

Is it only attack speed or also damage? This is often the case with weapons of similar tier to have different attack speed and damage values, but often set such that the DPS remains the same.

If longbows only have a (assuming) lower attack speed but same damage values, the DPS will be lower, so it will be a trade-off between DPS and the other property (likely range).

[grim bear]

right now shieldbows seem to have lower damage, too
probably to balance out the armour bonuses

[jaunty cosmos]

Currently shieldbows have 1H damage due technically being main-hand + shield, while shortbows are 2H. So shieldbows do 100% damage and shortbows 150%.

[hallow spoke]

Long v short should different damage, since those are standardized by tier / attackspeed

Which should end up with equal dps

Unless they're gonna change that

[still torrent]

It'd be nice if Javelins could be fletched, just like OSRS.

[vestal parrot]

no purpose for them though. any difference between them at throwing darts, knives, chakrams?

[still torrent]

Not really, but wish they had different stats and effects.

[hallow spoke]

Notably longer range thrown type

Or atleast they were

[still torrent]

Javelin as longer throwing type is what it should be.

[hallow spoke]

Chakrams could have passive bounce(s)

[vestal parrot]

ye, i think we should start with identifying and designing each specific type with a purpose/identity, rather than just outright asking for it to exist just because

[still torrent]

We could start with removing EoC. Out of the scope though.

[vestal parrot]

legacy should be removed entirely so that rs3 can progress~

[toxic cedar]

I don't think legacy is bottlenecking anything lmao. They can just make rs4 instead.

[mint bloom]

My only suggestion is to make sure things like invention components are also properly adjusted if any existing items go up in tier. Example being the Yew Shortbow considering the fletching level is going up 5 and the ranged level is going up by 30, the invention components should also reflect this change in retiering since it's technically now a higher tier weapons. Whether that means more components, or less natural junk chance doesn't matter, so long as the retier is reflected in this as well.

[strange lance]

Yup we'll be adjusting accordingly 😄

[knotty snow]

Please for the love of god give us a fletchable or smithable alternative to using ascension bolts with hydrix bolt tips to make hydrix bolts into the highest alchemy value version of hydrix bolts.

You can only gather around 2.5k ascension bolts per hour as capsarius, compared to other ammo this is painful for upkeep when processing hydrix bolts to alch.

[glass parcel]

Splintering and deathspores have a similar issue, but i think they are beyond the scope of this project atm.

[hallow spoke]

Tooltip for current focus for bakriminal bolts would be a nice qol

Allowing the focus to work to some extend in pve would also probably be a good change, to give the base bolts some value again

Perhaps only on humanoids?

[knotty snow]

imagine they were sniper ammo, sort of like a called shot in d&d, a lower chance to hit, but way more damage

[sullen gale]

that's just ful arrows

[knotty snow]

yes but we don't have a bolt equivalent

[hollow quartz]

bolts are all about chance effects after the hit already registers

[vestal parrot]

very curious how hard it is to make ammo all scalable. do they write the code uniquely, or is there a function they can use across each ammo

[sour atlas]

After basic fletching retier is finished and delivered, what is next? Upgradeable core range weapons, and fletching benefits?

[grim bear]

most likely other skills will also get retiered

[still torrent]

I think it would be cool to add wooden salvages to replace bow and crossbow drops if any. Can be alchemised or disassembled.

Those salvages would come in the following tiers: Plain, Oak, Willow, Teak, Maple, Acacia, Mahogany, Yew, Magic, and Elder.

[sacred blade]

why

the Mk upgrade system is not being applied to the rest of fletching, so fletching products will still be mass produced at a faster rate than anyone needs them

[strange lance]

As i mentioned in the design-doc channel, we feel that the upgrading gameplay mechanics need a little revision first, while the rest of the skill can keep functioning like it always has. Not ideal, but i could then see other skills re-tiering or whatever taking priority over such a thing

[strange lance]

It's a potential option, but i don't see us taking the same approach as the M&S rework did, as we're now discussing replacing some of those things with armour/weapons again - mostly in the early game

Salvage isn't inherently bad, but at the low levels they're basically just useless since there's no point alching them, and you can't disassemble them. And also just generally we're considering putting some armour/weapons/ores back on things where it makes sense

[vagrant shell]

tbh there are way too many types of salvage anyways

[hallow spoke]

Catapult construction uses mahogany planks, perhaps those should be replaced if the lvl requirements stay at 44 construction and 43 fletching

Since they're going to the lvl 60 range

Eyes of glouphrie has us repair a machine with an oak and maple log with 5 construction and no fletching lvl

Planks might make more sense for that

[vagrant shell]

I assume thats more relevant for perhaps construction 110 or something. Otherwise I'd mention that Desert Treasure need a level 80 log.

MEP1 is relevant in that its a ranged tool and quest require 60 range

[hallow spoke]

It's mainly that we're actively working with a material we don't have the skill for yet

Even if it's just patching up some damage

Or assembling

Also, for the catapult, using the construction frames would probably be a flavor win

[vestal parrot]

curious about this decision (not against it). what was the data analysis that made the team come to this?

[strange lance]

which part specifically?

[vestal parrot]

And also just generally we're considering putting some armour/weapons/ores back on things where it makes sense
this one

[idle nebula]

well theres always going to be gaps where High Alch value just simply is too low to really care.
Right now Addy and Lower is debatable weather or not its worth
The data that would make this available is compare the values of High Alch Runes vs Salvage
now the reality is most players do not manually high alch anymore;
many prefer either Invention Machines or Spring Cleaner; this comes into effect of checking Value of Tight Springs as Invention will be becoming the only method of High Alching through Springs by the looks, and Divine Energy will become the one for Invention Machines.

[strange lance]

It's not data driven, it'll just be us looking at areas where those low level things were replaced during the M&S rework

be it killing goblins, pickpocketing HAM members, digging up stuff during digsite quest etc

[idle nebula]

plus not many people desire farming the really low level ores; its better to inject them into a market in a sense.

like whens the last time you farmed a bunch of Coal Ore or Iron Ore ? 😛

(besides leagues or Ironman)

[jaunty cosmos]

So you could say stuff up to something like T20 would be dropped raw instead of salvage / spirits?

[strange lance]

maybe beyond that too, but focus is on the low end first

not en masse either

[vagrant shell]

Spears wielding enemies getting spears back to make Tai Bwo Wannai trio a bit easier would probably be nice

[hallow spoke]

You can buy em at warrior guild, though that's probably later in midgame

[halcyon oasis]

Spring cleaner's research/dismantle section is also quite outdated. It needs be looked at if the low level salvages are removed.

[strange lance]

Can you elaborate on why you say it's outdated?

[halcyon oasis]

Keeping in mind how research and dismantle works, there are some monster drops that could be included into the spring cleaner. Namely magic armour, ammunition and thrown weapons. The existing categories can also be expanded to include semi-precious and enchanted jewellery, the new bows if those drops are adjusted, and the low tier smithable gear which would be reverted from salvages. I'm sure there are more, just some that came to mind.

[sour atlas]

Ok, i think upgrading gameplay mechanics should be given in the near future since melee has an advantage in f2p (outside of gravite weaponry for range & magic). Having a Mk. system for all tiers would great given that it will be a nice balance to the melee weaponry-plus variants.

I would like to see herblore to get a retier since combat related and skilling potions leveling is inconsistent. Like basic combat related potion will be 1 - 15, super combat related potions will be 30-45 and so on. Skilling related potions could start at level 15.

[spare solar]

Just looking at the stuff still yet to be fully decided on, and as far as the other ammunition like wild arrows and dark arrows, I feel like giving them a passive when using them with the associated weapon could be cool even just a basic +5%ish damage when used with its paired weapon (royal bolts with royal crossbows, araxxyte arrows with nox longbow, etc). It'd be a good incentive to upgrade to those weapons after using the crafted ones (even aside from augmentability).
Ascension bolts would likely need to be different tho since the upgraded ascendri bolts don't give damage, only adrenaline, they could have a similar but weaker effect when used with ascension crossbows (maybe gives extra 5% adren instead of 10% and doesn't give any 15 sec buff). Blight bolts should probably be different too since the crossbows have an ammo saving effect built in, they could work like sirenic armor with a chance for a few different effects like a weak ruby or diamond bolt, but still very much not as strong as actual gem bakriminel bolts.
Dragon arrows I've got no idea on though, there's just not really anything unique to associate with them.

An extra thought from looking at the weapons, I personally feel that, if its within the priority of this retiering, Dark Bow and its dark arrows should be brought up to tier 75 which would match alongside abyssal whip and wand/orb where their drop source is a lower slayer req; with all the shieldbows being converted back to longbows, dark bow could be a very nice contender for a strong midgame ranged weapon.

[strange lance]

I gotcha, i think we'll review the spring cleaner in due time, given the TH changes upcoming. But we'll wait and see what happens

[vagrant shell]

How has gamejam gone

[strange lance]

Tbh, personally i dont like drop cleaners just sweeping absoluely every drop, so just making it work on more isn't my cup of tea 😂

I'd argue it's not outdated in so much as it was never meant to work like that

[hallow spoke]

Masterwork ava's accumulator?

[strange lance]

I agree, though fixing up other skills is a much bigger priority than the slight advantage in f2p

Unsure about Herblore without taking a deeper dive and investigating it with a clear focus, but for sure another one to look at

[strange lance]

Will note down the ideas, nice one, and ty for the shout on the dark bows/arrows too, potentially something to look at 👌

[strange lance]

mixed productivity on this update specifically. Stu was helping out elsewhere so didn't get any dev work done this time round, just more cleaning up on the design in a few places. Most major piece is just balancing which i made a start on but i was doing some internal documentation stuff instead and helping out other projects with design/balancing support

But god damn it's been an exciting gamejam, probably the most exciting i've seen so far

[tiny nova]

Will this be a project you work on again next gamejam? 🙂

[strange lance]

Highly likely, i want it out and in-game so i don't have to spend another gamejam on it 😂

[vagrant shell]

This has been the quietest gamejam for players in a while tbh

[tiny nova]

Sounds good. Really looking forward to this one myself 😄

[vagrant shell]

Barely any teasers!

[strange lance]

Ideally before the next league (if we do another one)

[vagrant shell]

honestly kinda hope OSRS and RS3 rotate league every other year

[strange lance]

Yeah, i think it's because most of it is all stuff to do with the new vision for the upcoming year

[tiny nova]

Yeah projects like these seem really nice for future Leagues. Awesome work 🙂

[vagrant shell]

idk if I have it in me for another league next year

(im playing leagues right now)

[strange lance]

And without that being communicated just yet, kinda hard to show off

I just didn't with Fletching cause i was in office and wasn't logged in to twitter to advertise it haha

[strange lance]

same. 58,180 points atm

[hollow quartz]

good to know

[tiny nova]

Everything in the https://discord.com/channels/303835144073248770/1430171453449310208 channel is pretty much up to date?

[strange lance]

Yeah, if anything isn't it'll be the tiniest detail

[tiny nova]

Alright cool 🙂

[vagrant shell]

I did remember a super tiny detail that should prob be addressed

#1365289010125078568 message

[strange lance]

There's a whole combat angle of this to address but it's not for the fletching re-tier to do so

[vagrant shell]

its just a quick shieldbow -> longbow text change

so low priority

[strange lance]

Ah yeah i noted it down but didn't update the design, but will do now

[blazing bronze]

I only it up to clean up salvage "spam"

[sour atlas]

Mod Breezy. Why is fletching re-tier project is not considered a game health update? Is it fixing the level of items, readjusting experience and drop table change considered to be part of game health?

[sacred blade]

maybe it is

[strange lance]

It is

[glass parcel]

Breezy how do you feel about OSRS design approach of separating hardwoods for construction with them introducing Jatoba, Camphor, Ironwood, & Rosewood, while having fletching logs as something separate?

I figured there was either a design choice, or budget constraint, but I'm more so curious on your overall thoughts on the matter towards applying something like that with RS3.