#Engaging Skilling Content

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

cobalt vapor
#

Yes, I meant mastery over some form of content, which displays a knowledge and expertise over mechanics and such.

#

It's one of my dislikes over 120 capes or "true skill mastery" you would think that such a cape would require you to at least engage with the most relevant content of that skill, but it doesn't. I just got 120 agility doing nothing but wearing silverhawks shows how much of a true master I am in agility

rose grove
#

req a sub-5 anachronia to get the master agility cape

cobalt vapor
#

I would at least like to see something along those lines for inverted capes

#

Yeah, complete all skill tasks and engage in at least the majority of that skills content in some way

foggy anchor
#

You could make engaging mining content in the form of maze/tunnels... include tnt/explosives to remove certain obstacles, build supports/framing to prevent cave ins, have poisonous gas you need a mask to walk through safely (or take poison damage). Lay minecart tracks to facilitate easy banking of ores. Enriched ore veins in the walls could be found along the walls.

Mazes should be large enough to support a larger mining community mining together, and reset weekly. Ideally each world would have a unique maze, or have several tiers/locations of maze.

#

.
Also, following up on my thoughts regarding skills/monster drops, etc:

Allowing monsters to drop noted items was a huge mistake. Allowing magic notepaper to be a high-demand resource for PVMers would allow skillers to profit off of their manufacture. Pre-noting loot tables also decreases any incentive to manually alch drops or use a spring cleaner. Jagex could implement a spell 'Chain Alchemy' which would use twice as many runes, but continue alching identical items, in a manner similar to invention's disassembly option.

Ideally make both alchemy and disassembly easier to use during combat.

rose grove
#

can't agree on noted items, it's about which items are noted

#

e.g. Nex's green dhide drop should absolutely be noted

#

whereas something like a salvage drop probably doesn't need to be

#

I think I'd get rid of the spring cleaner though

foggy anchor
# rose grove can't agree on noted items, it's about which items are noted

Well, consider that Nex shouldn't even be dropping dhide; she's not a dragon. She's not fighting dragons. There are no dragons in the frozen dungeon. She definitely shouldn't be dropping Sara brews; she's a Zarosian. She could instead be dropping:

-Blood of Orcus and Zarosian Insignia (because archeology is both a gathering and a crafting skill and can handle not needing to generate 100% of its own supply)
-Empty Potion Flasks (empty because Zaros is the empty god)
-Icyene Feathers (ideally remove feathers from shops, introduce tiered feather requirements to fletching ammunition).
-Vampire Fangs (replace Avantoe as Extreme Attack potion ingredient)
-Demon Horns (replace Dwarf Weed as an extreme strength potion ingredient)
-Aviansie talons (replace Lantadyme as an extreme defense potion ingredient)
-Congealed blood
-Damaged Torva/Pernix/Virtus/Zaryte pieces.
-Blood necklace shard?
-Portent of nihilism (Zarosian symbol, triggers on receiving damage over time effect. Removes all buffs/debuffs from the user and their target).

Having Nex drop 400 (FOUR HUNDRED!!?!) Dragonhides (or magic logs or onyx bolts (e)) undermines the value of killing dragons or cutting magic trees or fletching bolts. For what reason? Because Jagex needed some miscellaneous items to throw at a drop table, rather than weaving skilling into the mix.

strong patio
#

To quote a reddit comment on a current discussion about the OSRS Castlewars update:

"Even if something is fun and well designed, it will always be skipped in favour of some method or action that gives you better rewards, or in many cases, less engagement with the actual game (see, for example, how Hallowed Sepulchre is kind of broken reward-wise for irons when doing Agility, but most people would rather not bother despite it being legitimately fun and good content because they'd rather engage with the game less)."

I think RS3 is the same, and so few people would actually want those engaging skilling methods that it isn't worth the dev time.

rose grove
#

afk skilling is complete - it has reasonable methods at every point

#

it doesn't ever really need another update

foggy anchor
rose grove
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

dragonhide's a sensible thing to load on to drop tables because it's not competing with any useful activity

strong patio
rose grove
#

and common loot tables need to be a) rewarding enough to make going dry not feel terrible; and b) diverse enough to be interesting

#

hence it being reasonable to have some skilling supplies on drop tables

#

of course, it needs to be balanced

#

and certain previous drop tables have been completely improperly balanced

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

but likewise, skilling hasn't seen the love it needs in terms of item gathering rates

#

taking magic logs as an example, you're still only getting maybe 200 logs an hour at the intended level bracket

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

people can always change activities if they want to make more money

#

but the rates are truly horrendous

#

there's a lot of skilling items that are genuinely an order of magnitude off

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

I struggle to see dragon armour as a problem

#

skilling doesn't need to be relevant to producing the best gear

strong patio
#

Do you think that stone and wood spirits are the right solution for that problem?

rose grove
#

it's very rarely the case in the RPG genre generally

foggy anchor
#

Because Jagex completely deprioritized balancing skilling against PVM, skilling is no longer relevant to the game, aside from as level requirements for one-off tasks.

strong patio
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

this is a really tricky balancing thing though

#

e.g. one of the few thematic items in the game right now is arbucks

#

which is exclusively (I think?) obtained from anacrhonia activities

#

as a consequence there is a massive undersupply

foggy anchor
#

nothing wrong with having a near exclusivity on a supply, is there? PVM has that almost everywhere

strong patio
foggy anchor
#

But yes, broadening access to Arbuk to include, say, Dragonkin bosses, would likely be appropriate.

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

instead of having kerapac drop cannonballs, of all things...

strong patio
foggy anchor
rose grove
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

there is very little skilling content atm which by its nature justifies a 20m+/hr nut

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

I won't defend it

strong patio
#

you can only afk kerapac with end-game gear, most players arent doing that

rose grove
#

but the solution to skilling's profitability issues isn't to create bottlenecks which feel awful to anyone who plays the whole game

foggy anchor
#

Not saying create bottlenecks. Saying distribute the resources in such a way that encourages sensible supply and demand.

rose grove
#

(no typo)

foggy anchor
#

If Kerapac dropped arbuk seeds and an orthen archeology material or two, instead of cannonballs, dragonhide, and soul runes... you could shuffle soul runes to the ambassador, put cannonballs at the Dragonkin Front (or leave more for smiths to make), and give dragonhide back to the dragons...

rose grove
#

my bottom line is that skilling should be the best way of gathering skilling resources

#

I don't think it really matters whether it's the only way of doing so

foggy anchor
#

And that so much material is entering the game without skilling being involved that PVM drives the supply value of many skilling goods.

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

I agree skilling doesn't need to be the only way. But if you look at the drop sources for cannonballs, the top 10 sources drop 200+ cannonballs... and 4 of those are common drops.

rose grove
#

with cannonballs you craft... maybe 3k cballs an hour?

#

I'd say that number should probably be in the region of 40k-50k

strong patio
foggy anchor
#

I don't disagree. But understand that, as we spoke of rewards being a main incentive for players to participate in an activity... if supply of cballs goes down, profitability for smithing them will go up, increasing the incentive for more players to smith them.

#

It's incredibly unlikely that players who are currently killing kerepac are going to drop that to smith Cballs, as the profitability will never compete at that level...

rose grove
#

you design the game then the market fits around it

#

you can't make game design decisions taking market prices into account

foggy anchor
#

well, the exact opposite is what's been happening, isn't it? 5 years ago, there were relatively few monsters that dropped Cballs....

rose grove
#

yes - cballs were far too hard to get ignoring the market

foggy anchor
#

yet their price has increased because jagex made cannons more valuable

rose grove
#

speaking of cballs though

#

I think corp has a superbly designed drop table

foggy anchor
#

(and because inflation is disgusting)

rose grove
#

the fact that you get each drop maybe once-twice an hour allows diversity without dumping huge numbers of any particular supply into the game

foggy anchor
#

diversity is good, in theory... but I would still disagree that corp's drop table is appropriately balanced. The ONLY good thing going for it is its diversity....

That you could kill Corp for a few hours, and get a flooded bank of too many things to keep all of it means you have to quick-sell all of your items... not exactly 'flooding' the market, but certainly making for a negative impact on the value of those goods, which in some cases other players may have worked considerably longer to acquire.

rose grove
#

there is no item on its table, other than perhaps cballs

#

which is quicker to acquire from corp

#

and cballs have always been a meme because the cannon was launched as a ridiculously powerful item that was balanced only by the difficulty of obtaining balls

foggy anchor
#

Corp beast is a weird one in the sense that balancing its drops by theme is certainly more difficult. The lore on the creature is spotty.

No, no ONE item... but if you wanted to acquire all the items you gained from corp after 1 hour of gameplay 'the normal way', you'd be at it for quite a bit longer.

rose grove
#

I don't see the problem with that

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

I might remove alchs from its table

rose grove
#

if a smith wants to make money they can simply do another activity

foggy anchor
#

Runescape used to be a game where, if you wanted to be a master fisher, you could commit to fishing, enjoy that, and be proud of that. But being anything other than a PVM player currently prohibits you from enjoying any real prosperity. And it's not as though PVM has enough risk to be squawking about anymore.

rose grove
strong patio
rose grove
#

as a matter of fact, there has never really been a point in time post... maybe 2005?

foggy anchor
#

So if a player wants to be ANY kind of skiller... they have to commit themselves to comparative poverty. Because apparently it's okay to be making 10x (or more) the skilling resources per hour from afk PVM than from active skilling.

rose grove
#

where pvm wasn't by some distance a better way of making money

rose grove
strong patio
#

I think pvm has been more profit than skilling since the release of slayer and barrows

rose grove
#

also

#

there are skilling methods which are comparable in gp/hr to comparable pvm methods

#

and there is simply no skilling content which can fairly be compared to any pvm which makes more than ~50m/hr

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

tbf making masterwork is afk - it shouldn't make substantial profit

foggy anchor
#

But masterwork equipment isn't going to sell for more, so long as PVM drops are better-in-slot across the board

strong patio
#

I just made the new masterwork staff, and really enjoyed the whole process. I like the combination of afk steps plus activity, and it's currently around 200m profit per staff

#

if we see a decent passive, they might continue to be good money

foggy anchor
rose grove
foggy anchor
#

All you need to do to make smithing viable as a skill again is:

All monster-dropped equipment should drop in a damaged state. Restoring it requires an archeology-style means of reforging it to make it useable again. Degrades back to the same damaged state, repairable with player-made repair patches (of different tiers). Remove coin-based repairs from the game. Augmented items should degrade; remove the charge-pack and implement divine energy use elsewhere in the game.

rose grove
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

I'm a completionist

#

but when talking about skilling profit

#

the first question is should this skill profit, assuming it should is obviously sily

foggy anchor
#

Gathering / manufacturing skills *should *profit. idk why that's even a question. Support skills, meanwhile, mostly don't need to. Exception for thieving.

#

Herblore needs to all be tradeable, or become part of the combat level calc. It's way too OP.

rose grove
#

gathering I can somewhat see as a mechanical necessity

strong patio
rose grove
#

but assuming smithing/crafting etc should profit is both unjustified and inconsistent with RS history (since c. 2002)

foggy anchor
#

They're dead content. And have been for a decade. And that's a major part of why OSRS is 'winning', while RS3 dies.

rose grove
#

the core problem with skilling right now is the devaluation of xp

#

historically a lot of the limited profit skilling had was driven by players paying to gain xp fast

strong patio
rose grove
#

and there's also the issue that the (historically not unusual) levels of profit of skilling are only a problem now because skillers no longer have xp as a rewarding metric to go for

#

hypothetically you could remove all common loot from drop tables and skilling would still be vastly vastly less profitable than pvm

foggy anchor
#

Look at it this way: IRL, tires are bloody expensive. Everybody needs tires for their cars. We might wish they were less expensive, but they have value and producing them takes resources and manpower.

Artificially injecting tires into the real world economy by having them magically appear whenever someone throws a dance party might be 'fun' for those at the dance party, but arguing that those who are manufacturing the tires do not deserve to be making that money? That's .... total BS, I'm sorry....

rose grove
#

if you solve scarcity of a single product yes, that's obviously a fucking great thing IRL

foggy anchor
#

No... Kerapac does not symbolize an improvement to technology. Kerapac symbolizes a lottery that is restricted to the able-bodied and wealthy.

rose grove
#

the difference in RS is that retraining - the IRL solution to an increase in supply - is unbelievably easy

#

someone choosing to make money only from a particular skill or set of skills is placing arbitrary limits on themselves

#

and shouldn't be catered to ahead of designing a holistically balanced game

foggy anchor
#

but it is a choice, and should be their choice.

rose grove
#

and that's fine, but it's then manifestly unreasonable for them to expect it to be a problem that they're not making as much gp

foggy anchor
#

The meaningful choices in RS3 SHOULD be vast. We have so many plausible directions... it's just that most of them totally suck, because all the rewards have been given to PVM*

rose grove
#

I am absolutely in support of content being added to skilling which is equally rewarding to pvm

#

but it needs to be acknowledged that current click and watch content is designed in a way which is incompatible with being especially profitable

#

let's remember that skilling consistently has money makers which make c. 50m/hr

foggy anchor
#

In principal, yes, but it is difficult to meaninguflly improve on the neglected mess we have now because you'd have to invent new content at every level in order to leave what already exists as-is, and solve the problem.

rose grove
#

yes - but it is a logical prerequisite to profitable skilling

#

imposing that as a cost on pvm is fucking up a second system because you've already broken one, throwing the baby out with the bathwater

foggy anchor
#

Suppose you make a more active/challenging/engaging version of smithing, which allows for faster production. Presently, there'd be zero reason to use it. You've got to fix the drop table problem first, and then you can experiment with empowering higher production rates through tools and diversity of engagement.

rose grove
#

certainly, 'remove every source' should never be the case

foggy anchor
#

The devs are basically unwilling to fix the content problem because there's insufficient engagement with skilling. So they see it as unpopular.

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

So you need to make skilling mean something again, with the least amount of dev time possible, so that skilling has value again.

PVM drops are about value, not about what the items are, presently. There's zero reason you'd need to take value away from PVM to make this work. There may be significant fluctuation, but you can ADD rare drops to PVM that support skilling if this happens.

foggy anchor
#

Skilling is engaged with more because players can put on Netflix, smoke a joint, and basically nap while gaining exp for 8 hours straight.

I'm not saying that should be profitable, any more than AFK combat should be... I'm saying that runescape's only unique identity is skilling. And it's dying, dying, dead. And we need to fix that or the game is toast.

rose grove
#

sure

foggy anchor
#

Plenty of other games have better combat than RS3. Plenty of other games have better lore/story/immersion/etc. RS3 gives you basically limitless options for character development... and then says 'but you gotta PVM if you wanna succeed'.

rose grove
#

merching/clues/high hours also reasonable options if success is defined by gp

#

but also

#

making money is unbelievably easy now more than ever

foggy anchor
#

Clues are mostly awarded through PVM, to begin with.
Merching, sure, but that's a different issue entirely...

rose grove
#

I don't see merching as an issue

foggy anchor
#

I see merching as a perfectly valid profession that has gotten wildly out of hand due to insufficiently shared data.

rose grove
#

I would strongly agree with the idea of greater rates of clues from skilling

#

(controversially I've supported a clue dispenser machine to reflect its change from a DnD to an active form of gameplay)

foggy anchor
#

If the GE shared data more accurately, if private trades were counted, if certain online resources were basically part of the in-game price history... merching might be 'fair' .... but presently it relies on ignorance and multi-account abuse...

rose grove
#

honestly I wish alting was banned

#

I can't see that it does anything good for the game

#

(I say this despite using alts to e.g. hold doors open at times)

foggy anchor
#

Hmm. I dislike multi-account stuff, in general, but I'm okay with having a substitute for needing a 'friend', for the socially awkward/impaired, for certain activities...

I'm not really keen on extra accounts for the sake of more bank space/GE slots/TH spins.... But I can't deny the appeal is sometimes there.

rose grove
#

yeah sure

#

it wraps up heavily in my take on all this stuff

#

I hate the idea that a major portion of market supply for afk skilling is consisting of people playing large numbers of accounts and essentially getting that active gameplay experience in what seems to me to be a super-artificial way

foggy anchor
#

Hmm. On the one hand, I'm very not a fan of bots/muti-accounting in this context. Very not a fan of goldfarming. On the other hand, that's kinda a seperate issue from afk skilling, as we've already discussed AFK PVM being as much of/more of a problem in this regard.

rose grove
#

eh, people definitely alt afk pvm to a large degree

#

I'm not saying it's a skilling-exclusive issue to be clear

#

I think active/afk is a more meaningful distinction than skilling/pvm anyway

foggy anchor
#

mmm. That is how this thread started, and is the primary goal of this thread... but when I started discussing balancing skilling, you kinda dragged it straight into the skilling vs pvm conversation...

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

and the proposal has been an inevitable and ongoing demand from skilling communities for decades....

rose grove
#

a largely unreasonable one

foggy anchor
#

in one form or another

#

which I vehmently disagree with, but I think we've been over that

rose grove
#

if skilling communities had invested their effort in the introduction of difficult and high effort content rather than this scapegoating approach with spectacularly misses both the point and the economics, the game would be in a much better place

foggy anchor
#

well, okay, take a look at any historically engaging and high effort skilling content. Then take a look at the rewards. Then realize that said content was popular/profitable/engaged with... until PVM was handed those rewards at a greater level.

#

I can't say the trend happens over and over because quite frankly skilling has been neglected for so long that it's not recently recurrent news; but it absolutely was the trend, when it was tried.

rose grove
#

(not to say they don't exist btw, am drunk)

foggy anchor
#

I gotchu fam

Evil Tree: Logs
Fishing Trawler: Fish
Great Orb Project: Runes
Pyramid Plunder: Junk to sell for GP
Shifting Tombs: Menaphite Gift Offerings (reputation)

signal rune
#

it wasn't big profit/value in skilling after they started making it all quick, convenient, and/or AFK, same way as a lot of moneymaker daily style things drop off a cliff after getting QOLd into automatic/instant things instead. There's cases where PVM just dipping into the resources was the issue but it's not all that

#

and are we actually pretending evil trees were considered "big money" rather than a more interesting option for training?

foggy anchor
#

Lets look at Runecrafting as a better example than Smithing, Joe... cuz I agree, Smithing's excessively AFK in the example of cannonballs.

But Runecrafting is not, outside of the runespan, which produces no resources.

If fire runes were exclusively dropped by wizards/druids, and otherwise had to be bought or made, I would think that appropriate?

rose grove
#

these seem like poor examples to me
evil tree is a dnd and not skilling in a meaningful sense
fishing trawler lost profit due to being powercrept
GOP is a decent example (I think, I've not played it)
pyramid plunder...? was not affected by pvm in any sense at all?
shifting tombs - the same?

#

but runecrafting is already as profitable as comparable pvm methods

foggy anchor
#

Presently, Time runes have basically zero value, because one single trip can fulfill most players needs for a month...

rose grove
signal rune
#

Because I can guarantee none of these logs were worth that much back in the day, and only a couple of "money is worthless and no one cuts them anymore" things stand out now

rose grove
#

what's the profit of efficient blood runes/water runes/necro runes

signal rune
foggy anchor
# signal rune

No, we're discussing how giving skilling resources to all PVM drops was a bad move, because it devalued any possible or existing active skilling content

rose grove
signal rune
#

blood runes are 400 gp each

rose grove
#

huh I'm just out of date on what's profitable

#

either way

signal rune
#

most of the value right now comes from threads

rose grove
#

runecrafting is c. 50m/hr

signal rune
#

pretty much every "craft runes through abyss" option is that much

rose grove
#

probably 60m if you allow for the fact that wiki is inefficient

#

and it is a lot easier than every pvm method that makes 50m/hr

signal rune
foggy anchor
#

With a pouch that currently costs about 200m to make, and that profit is from magical thread being in such high demand, not for the runes themselves

rose grove
signal rune
#

right now cosmic and nature are just under 60m an hour

rose grove
#

which supplies the profit comes from seems unimportant

#

when the price of thread goes down the price of runes will go up

foggy anchor
#

so as soon as the magical thread plummets, that skilling activity isn't valuable again. They didn't balance a skill, they added a temporary demand.

rose grove
#

runecrafting has been in the region of 40-100m/hr for the last few years

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

sure but budget-friendly pvm is not what you're comparing to

#

there is (probably, I am not entirely au fait with current prices) no pvm which makes more than runecrafting at the budget and skill level involved

foggy anchor
#

Now all of this is a trick question, because Runecrafting is profitable BECAUSE Jagex protected it years back. They DID pull almost all rune drops from monsters to protect the value of the skill.

#

Still more they could do, imo, but they DID do exactly what I'm talking about with it.

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

Now, what's the next most profitable skill on that same guide, after runecrafting?

rose grove
#

I have no idea

#

what's the next skill with comparable content?

#

the content must come first

foggy anchor
#

suddenly we jump down by 50% to big game hunter, at 25m/hr. Decent, but we're about 100 lines down an otherwise PVM-centric list.

rose grove
#

suddenly you're about three lines down

foggy anchor
#

The content HAS come first. And half the time it's been done poorly, the other half the time the rewards have been surpassed by giving them or something better to PVM.

rose grove
#

(also - evil trees are not in the least bit comparable to any pvm making 50m+/hr)

heavy coral
#

Let's be clear.

Runescapes grouping system is hot garbage. Games made back when I was a kid had a better grouping system and were talking about nintendo 64 days.

Final fantasy literally has a click this button once to find content from a range of levels and difficulties. It also has a sprout (newb) and flower (teacher) system. So everyone knows who's new and who knows what to do and it's so fluid and amazing. You can group for content no matter what your doing at anytime anywhere and it just sits in the back ground while you skill or do quest. It's amazing.

foggy anchor
#

aight. You don't want smiths making money, but Necromancy can make 15m/hr making ghostly ink.

You don't want skillers in general making money but tanning hides at total level 0 makes 15m per hour. Killing the arch glacor is filthy good money afk.

rose grove
#

so is the necromancy method I'd think - I know necromancy is nominally a combat skill but it feels very difficult to call something combat ahead of skilling when it doesn't involve killing anything

foggy anchor
#

Debateable, but Not if it requires zero skill, while you're telling me making cannonballs shouldn't be profitable for smiths....

rose grove
#

I'm saying it doesn't matter whether making cannonballs is profitable

#

if it's afk or very low effort, regardless of the nature of the content, it doesn't matter if it's profitable

#

I am all for drop table rebalances just as soon as content worth protecting is in game

#

(presumably in practice this would happen in the same update)

foggy anchor
#

I'm saying everything except player-invested roles that the player can identify with, be it as a smith, a craftsman, a woodcutter, a miner... SHOULD be more profitable than zero total level required methods, and that dumping their products into the drop tables of PVM is exactly what's preventing that from being possible.

#

Your counter argument was that 'smithing cannonballs isn't hard enough'

rose grove
#

do you honestly think that making cannonballs would be profitable if only they were removed from kerapac and corp

#

the second an afk method becomes more than about 10m/hr, people flock to it and it becomes shit again

foggy anchor
#

I did not limit the intended removal to kerapac and corp. They were simply the two critters we discussed

rose grove
#

sure, removal from all pvm drop tables

#

those were the two that sprang to mind, I think there's a couple others

foggy anchor
#

and cannonballs were just the item we happened to latch onto

rose grove
#

low effort skilling content will never be profitable and to say that pvm is preventing it from being profitable is simply incorrect

#

there are simply too many lazy players trying to make a quick buck for doing essentially nothing

heavy coral
#

So lots of neat conversation. I'm just going to throw this out there.

I think peak runescape was when the best gear in the game was something you had to smith, and when barrows armor with special effects released. I would like to see things like masterwork barrows armor for diversity.

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

I think in order to make that the case again you need to gate it in some way

foggy anchor
#

Except that the barrows armour should've dropped in a broken state, and required smiths to finish/repair it

rose grove
#

everyone has 110 smithing

#

you can't just say 'get a smithing level, here's your gear'

#

at that stage in the game (btw - a long time before barrows release), there were single digit numbers of players who could make a rune platebody

foggy anchor
#

You gate it by requiring rare drop components from PVM?

#

As discussed?

rose grove
heavy coral
#

Also what are people's thought if activities like trawler fishing became the fastest fishing xp in the game... but you might need some higher level planks and construction to not drown? Maybe throw in some random events like a kraken attacking the boat.

foggy anchor
#

Exp rates aren't really the main problem with RS3 currently; profitability and validity of certain aspects of gameplay (skilling/dead content) are the problems needing solving

#

unless we removed allmost all fish from drop tables, and all sara brews, it doesn't matter what content we create/update for fishing...

rose grove
signal rune
#

the pvm centric GP makers on the list are all things most people can't do, or things that aren't "that hard" are done at speeds that normal people can't do

rose grove
#

it is utterly pointless to talk about skilling profit until you add active, difficult skilling methods and make xp valuable again - but we're going round in circles a bit I think

#

also - let's remember - there's no good reason any skiller can offer why they're not just doing pvm themselves if it's more profitable

#

the game should assume players play the whole game rather than limiting themselves

#

(likewise, I'm very strongly in favour of every skill having herblore-like untradeable rewards)

signal rune
#

for the record I would strongly vote in favor of more active and skill-based non-combat activities, especially ones that interface with other parts of the game (IE using equipment/items from other things for optimal play) but the issue isn't just "pvm drops too much"

foggy anchor
#

plenty of good reasons.
-Choice. Some players don't WANT to run around play-killing everything in sight.
-Handicaps. Some players literally cannot engage with high level PVM.
-Device. Mobile sucks for high level PVM.
-Time/energy. Some players play to wind down. Doesn't have to be afk to not be a life-or-death tick-abusing stress game.

signal rune
#

because even without it, a lot of content ends up being self-defeating when everyone can easily do it or second screen it

foggy anchor
signal rune
#

and if we look at the moneymaking guides, almost every big profit thing is really difficult/exclusive, or a pain in the ass to do that people don't want to do

rose grove
signal rune
#

even if its "easy"

#

tons of easy pvm stuff on the list loses to chore non-afk skilling

foggy anchor
#

But it also needs to hold up long term... and ideally, across various skill levels. We can't just add end-game content and call it fixed.

signal rune
rose grove
foggy anchor
#

It is... and it's why I am so fussed about drop tables. Because Jagex has proven repeatedly that PVM is allowed to sabotage even the slightest step in the right direction that Skilling achieves. Not because skilling has had good examples of Engaging content previously, but because PVM is always thirsty for new chaffe to stick in a loot slot.

#

And any content we could ask for that is 'new' would likely only exist at lvl 99+ in a skill... leaving the rest of the content at the mercy of poor balancing, as it is currently

rose grove
#

I probably seem like a pvm fundamentalist btw

foggy anchor
#

Think I called you out on that earlier 😉

signal rune
#

even when the stuff isn't on drop tables it isn't valuable when you can get it in bulk or afk

rose grove
#

but I do agree that drop tables need nerfing

#

the issue is just mostly confined to recent ones

#

(read: post-2018)

#

in terms of fixable issues

#

stuff like raw sharks are dead

#

they're not coming back unless you delete items from players' banks

west lion
#

You'd need massive sinks to make something like raw sharks rise from the dead lol

signal rune
foggy anchor
signal rune
#

the same applies to things that aren't on drop tables though

rose grove
#

I just can't accept that any afk content's profitability being low is a problem - it compares very favourably to its nearest comparator which is logging off

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

yeah maybe

signal rune
#

brews aren't even on a lot of tables, especially in bulk

#

it's the crushed nests from AG

rose grove
#

I think only nex

#

right - and crushed nests are another example

signal rune
#

it's pretty much nex, if you bring notepaper to take them

rose grove
#

they're on pvm because the skilling rates are ridiculous

foggy anchor
signal rune
#

and what does that active play look like

rose grove
#

but fwiw you underestimate the changes needed to cannonballs

#

I think the time gathering:using should very rarely be lower than 1:10

#

we essentially need a way to increase the speed of crafting cannonballs by about 15x

#

including the time spent gathering ores and making steel bars

foggy anchor
#

That infers that PVM should be 10x more popular, time-wise, than skilling?

rose grove
#

no, it infers that skilling has about 10 inputs to pvm

foggy anchor
#

Or that every PVMer should be using a cannon, all the time?

rose grove
#

depending on teh situation

foggy anchor
#

I mean, something like 6 gathering skills, 7 production skills, 4 support skills, 7 combat skills, and 9 'even less relevant' skills?

#

exact numbers may vary

#

but I can agree that it shouldn't be 1:1

rose grove
#

currently there are specific resources from skilling which are overwhelmingly time consuming for particular combat styles

#

dinarrows spring to mind

#

and ideally you'd distribute some of the time cost from those to other supplies

foggy anchor
#

Pretty sure that best-in-slot ammo should be more valuable, not less, if they're complex, time consuming, and kinda a pita to make....

rose grove
#

really my goal is to ensure that all aspects of the game remain fun and balanced, and the market position of skilling is, at the end of the day, driven by the fact that for every account doing lots of pvm there's about 10 accounts* doing lots of skilling

*numbers pulled out of thin air, do not believe

rose grove
#

market prices are secondary

foggy anchor
#

And how many hours does a PVMer invest to acquire a T100 weapon (T95 and the buff thingy and invention perks) in an ironman context?

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

And how many hours does that player use said best in slot weapon for? And what do they use it for? OH, to make filthy amounts of GP, so their time pays for itself.... while the flecther's time doesn't...

rose grove
#

I mean

#

if you control for skill

#

it's not filthy amounts of gp, pvm is making about 25m/hr

#

like, in this comparison you simply must discount any pvm content which requires a greater degree of skill than the skilling content you're comparing it to, or you're comparing apples with oranges

#

and the issue with this is that we come back to it being a content issue

signal rune
#

also probably worth specifying that Raku is focusing only on GP/hr value, and Joe would forcibly delete everyone's stats and banks and convert them to ironmen if he could so he's not talking about market/GP per hour value as a priority

foggy anchor
#

well, if you make 25m/hr for 100 hours, you've got 2.5 bil.... which is potentially more than the value of the weapons by a considerable margin, depending on the weapon you choose

rose grove
#

the money is besides the point

#

you balance the game, then the economy falls in to place after balancing

#

players who are dissatisfied with the amount of moneyh they are making can simply do other content

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

GP/hr pretty much needs to be ignored for game balance

signal rune
#

you guys are arguing "value" on a different metric from each other

foggy anchor
#

I'd happily argue "value" in terms of fun, engaging gameplay... but I already did that with Mod Jack, and basically I got told 'players don't engage with that when we try and doing it better is hard to do reliably' ... So I'm seeking to discuss the problem of engagement/balancing rewards, since solving the problem of 'we want engaging content' wasn't getting anywhere fast...

rose grove
#

I just don't really understand when people value a market economy as an aspect of gameplay then try and seek shielding from the effect of a market economy

foggy anchor
#

well, if we look at WHY people play RS3...

Mod Jack is of the opinion we don't do it 'for fun'.
It's certainly no longer for the xp/leaderboards.
It's barely holding up as a multiplayer game.
... really all we have left is FashionScape... which is directly linked to player wealth.

near grove
#

It's to build up an account
The leaderboards just haven't kept up with all the forms of progression people care about now

rose grove
#

yeah 100% rpg progression

#

skilling is essentially popular still because of the same reasons vanilla skyrim is popular - it gives dopamine buzzes from progression

foggy anchor
#

Well, yes... but to what point and purpose? If I picture myself as a super duper epic swordsman, and melee gets nerfed... I have to swap to Magic or Necromancy. If I picture myself as a smith, but only Runecrafting is profitable, I guess I'm stuck runecrafting in stead of making swords.

#

And the dopamine buzzes die off once you hit a certain point.

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

You don't get dopamine from skilling, because it's basically rewardless (unengaging, repetitive) content.

heavy coral
#

The market is runescapes strongest strength. All players (excluding ironman) engage with it.

Getting a rare drop? Feels epic because you can sell it.

Did you farm croesus fishing for a year? Feels epic because you just made 4bill.

Runescape does have a big problem with items not being consumed. Honestly there are so many easy simple fixes to this.

  1. Contracts where NPCS want large amounts of in-game items.

  2. Increased difficulty. All monsters especially bosses should hit players for more damage... skilling bosses like the gate are a great food sink.

  3. Degradeable and consumable items that take several inputs and then go poof.

  4. Actual high risk areas being reintroduced. The wilds threat system was a great experiment... take the toxic king out of the equation... what if there were areas people would go and risk all of their items again?

rose grove
#

the differences between combat styles are not meaningful in the grand scheme of things

heavy coral
foggy anchor
# rose grove I think this is overstated fwiw

Well, yeah... I can still use Melee in many scenarios, but compared to Necromancy? Melee is a cumbersome slug. And you don't have to learn to PVM properly until end-game, so you get attached to a roll that isn't sustainable, but it's far, far worse in skilling

rose grove
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

you don't have to convince me that necromancy was utterly destructive to the game

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

leaving aside the actual combat system, because people like it and that's good and not unreasonable

#

the progression is far too simple and curtailed

#

as for the market

foggy anchor
foggy anchor
rose grove
#

what's the point? everyone who's been playing more than 20 minutes has all the gp they'll ever need unless they've been actively griefing themselves for most of their game time

#

like

#

if you're maxed and have near-bis

#

what use do you have for gp

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

the point is that the game requires new players, and new players (not using a wiki to do shop runs or tan hides) will be prohibitively worse off trying to play the game naturally than by simply grinding combat and then buying skills.

rose grove
#

he is very correct about combat animations, but his videos are very very wrong about a lot of things

rose grove
foggy anchor
#

well yes, the way it's designed, absolutely, but part of that poor design is its lack of protection to generate exclusive resources. Aaand so we're back to drop tables again.

rose grove
#

give it a few years of active skilling development

#

then it might be reasonable to look at wholesale reworks of drop tables if the problem isn't fixed

foggy anchor
#

Right now you may as well remove 99% of items from the game. Remove all ores. Remove all hides. Remove basically everything, and replace it with a GE value in GP, to buy armour and weapons.

rose grove
#

reworking drop tables in isolation will achieve nothing of value

foggy anchor
#

shrug I see it as the 'easiest' first step. Easy in that it requires one dev to spend a while staring at spreadsheets for a few weeks, and doesn't require new areas/mechanics/artwork/bug testing/etc, etc.

#

But w/ev

#

I gotta run for a bit

rose grove
#

it's easy, but it makes the game worse without actually accomplishing anything

foggy anchor
#

Carry on the good fight for Engaging content, my man. I do absolutely support that.

rose grove
#

it will not improve skilling profitability

#

sounds good mate

#

enjoy your day

proven moth
#

Skilling needs rare drops

foggy anchor
#

That sounded sarcastic for some reason. T'was not.

Thanks for the chat, have a good night

foggy anchor
rose grove
#

skilling rares are good

foggy anchor
#

but it can't just keep giving rare drops to itself (ie: runecrafting giving runecrafting tools is bad economically. should be circular.)

rose grove
#

I would very much like tmaul v2

#

inquisitor staff v2 not so much

signal rune
#

Hypnowand was pretty good. Ignoring afk power crept combat, rare drops from different active activities, with reasons to go to each one optimally

#

Also since it's relevant to the general topic I'd like to bring up repurposing old content (IE pest control or Orb Project) to fit modern stuff a bit. Like if PC didn't require teams and scaled a bit differently along with being accelerated for void to be viable, or more relevant orb project gameplay being reworked to be single player/co-op as a normal active RC activity

#

Like you have little maps based on the altars and you push/pull orbs to the altar for score, better score gets you more runes/unique materials, and some unique rules/obstacles for some altars and difficulty options

pale mural
#

I think one of the best forms of active skilling was Trah Rune Hour mining before M&S rework. I know world hopping isnt everyones cup of tea but it was active engagement of skilling with great reward output. I think similar content would obviously do very well if structured properly.

#

I know the Desert Dig Site and the Anachronia stuff is similar but its a very large overall buff to those areas so players are concentrated in certain areas irrespective of the worlds.

#

I think with the current engine the orb mechanics can be improved on but I think GOP can be a great way to get Magical Threads.

#

but GOPs biggest issue is simply that all the rewards have been outscaled from exp gain to just pure output of rewards.

#

Fish Flingers was also great active skilling for experience gains on release with the reward output being the points needed for the tacklebox but thats been completely powercrept for all parts of the minigame.

#

Was one of my favorite minigames to play but now people hate it since no one is playing it

rose grove
#

FF suffered from trying to do too much in one update

#

has a reward structure that assumes people are going to play 100s of games

signal rune
#

Also yeah shout-out to FF. It feels like a perfect fit for an actual fishing activity that gives you unique fish. Periodically move and find combos to improve catch rates

signal rune
pale mural
#

I mean FF was meta but then the Shark Outfit release from TH was when that made it slide into obscurity. It was one of the really great minigames at the tail end of the minigame era.

cobalt vapor
#

I think the underground Lumby swamp area could also be a neat place for a new engaging/active skilling area

#

notably because of the possibilities of explosions down there

#

could relate to mining, agility, and firemaking

cobalt vapor
#

The possibilities are endless! Mort swamp, lumby swamp cave, ice path, kramja, wildy volcano, Desert, Death plataeu, and more

#

I would even be curious to see about the possbility of making the entire wilderness an agility course!

#

It's already dangerous and full of high lvl mobs

#

Forget the Agility training area up North, make the entire wildy some form of agility content

#

Tbh, you could make an instance to the wildy with all the former wildy mechanics

#

the volcano hitting, mob spawns

#

and such and make that an agility activity or something

pale mural
#

Honestly best place for a mining Dnd where you would be creating this type of mining shaft fixing/resource fixing is in Keldagrim. I can see it as a really fun way to accumulate raw mining resources without needing insane afk grinding.

cobalt vapor
#

There's already a lot of plenty of dnds and I could also see the Lava Flow mine getting revamped or expanded as being an engaging and proper training method

#

But yeah, I could see the keldagrim area as a spot for an active mining method

signal rune
#

We don't really need DND, just make it a full option on its own instead of locking you out or changing your play patterns to prioritize it when it's available

#

A gameplay focused (comparatively) turbo mining option that REQUIRES stone spirits to help you sink them faster at less efficient rates might be viable

#

or unique materials as something you can get from it, of course. Although it might kind of suck if someone wanted to do the activity as an iron and didn't have stone spirits to play

pale mural
#

You're right. I would rather have it as a nonstop Skilling Event or in a Minigame format. I think ideally it would be where all folks participating hop into one solo world (after the initial hype wears down) and its constantly fixing/building/mining in these shafts. If its a minigame, same concept but with certain group sizes like Pest Control.

heavy coral
pale mural
#

I think as solo activities they're great but not good for group content. RuneScape has just gotten weaker in regards for group content over the last several years unless its a boss focused on group content. I think the exception is Shooting Stars of late and thats it really.

rose grove
#

are shooting stars group content?

#

they deplete at a flat rate right

pale mural
#

I guess? Its the only one where it creates a mini social activity of just mining at the same world, in the same area at the same time. But definitely a weaker concept of group content since you don't need to interact with anyone to complete the content.

heavy coral
# pale mural I guess? Its the only one where it creates a mini social activity of just mining...

This right here is what's wrong with rs3 right now. The fact that a conversation is even needed to evaluate if there is a group activity for a skill.

I would say that it counts for the same reasons, but I would also highlight the old days where the only rune rocks were in the wild. While it didn't force you to team up or have protection the net result of most of the game was "want to do 'x' I should ask a friend to come with me.

Haha even the first time making it across (alive) white wolf mountain was great.

We need more hero quests.. more areas where it's like you should really bring a friend or at least have multiple purposes for an area. Tons of people have already suggested having resources in boss areas and I think there would revitalize the "public bossing" scene.

foggy anchor
pale mural
#

Ya the lack of healthy group content (that isnt associated with PvM) post Ironman release is really noticeable. There was a few small good group content in that time frame like wilderness flash events but then on the opposite end you had Sinkholes which ironman couldnt do.

stray sonnet
#

Pvm also been dry, not sure if Croesus counts but I do like it. Getting Amascut though finally

pale mural
#

I think its definitely worth developing a core team for that type of content where group gameplay is the focus is something Jagex should invest in. Similar to how there is a Lore Council, Combat Council and now I feel like there is both a Skilling Team / Game Mode Team, I think its something that should be invested in how does Jagex created healthy group gameplay content between its players.

old pendant
#

my fave 'boss'

stray sonnet
#

It's a good beginner group boss, sum teamwork during low level. I think public Croesus is a better boss than 4man tho, like I would rate public much higher

kindred valve
#

@delicate wave I've been lurking on this post and reading as much of it as I can. Engaging high input content is definitely preferred imo. A great example of this is Big game hunter. Tons of fun, almost like a minigame to train the skill, but I think where it shoots itself in the foot is the 60 minute cooldown for the dinosaurs.

It takes about 15 minutes to hunt a dinosaur before it goes into hiding, and after that, the 60 minute timer starts. Meaning if I do the other 2 dinosaurs on the same tier ( accounting for running between plots), I still have to wait 20 minutes doing nothing before I can start hunting the same tier again.

I know in the hunter mark shop, ther's the dinosaur bait which brings them out of hiding instantly, but you don't earn enough points to upkeep a supply of those. The XP rates aren't as good as some other methods (specifically 2t fungal spores at Croesus front), but BGH is definitely more fun.

Is it possible to make an upgrade to cut the timer in half from 60 minutes to 30 minutes for hiding so the engaging content can be done without pause?

stray sonnet
#

I do think the problem with Big Game is that it's not rewarding enough, where Het Oasis scarabs are both good xp and rewarding

heavy coral
# stray sonnet I do think the problem with Big Game is that it's not rewarding enough, where He...

I was training hunter after archeology released, but my experience with it was amazing. Mattocks were 40-50m each, thet chance for the one ooga booga melee weapon (that's probably dead now because of necromancy) , and the meats sold generally well. Also at that stage of my PVM dinosaur armor was a big upgrade so that felt amazing to make it myself and use it for awhile (although that is definitely dead after necromancy haha).

worn vessel
pale mural
#

i think bgh is fine, the only thing I would say would utilize the resources from the content into other gameplay. So in the future the dragon mattock/ meat by products / melee weapon I cant remember the name of get used in other late game content production. Same way the 110s have sort of done that with masterwork. So there could be a new food type that uses the meats. Or the mattock is used for a new way to craft an archaeology skilling item. etc

stray sonnet
#

I think new level 110 big game dinosaurs would make sense but people haven't really commented on the idea

bronze summit
#

we dont even know anything about 110 thieving 110 hunter is like

#

2026 shit

stray sonnet
#

Been asking for 110 safecracking tbh

stray sonnet
#

The survey question of game direction is a hard question because I think the pvm direction with Amascut is like a 10/10 if they do it right and skilling like a 1/10 because it's not meant to be enjoyable right

rose grove
#

wait

#

@stray sonnet where have you got 'skilling isn't meant to be enjoyable' from?

#

fair - I think 'fun' and 'enjoyment' are different things though

stray sonnet
#

I suppose. I think the game is supposed to be enjoyable by itself though

cobalt vapor
#

What if there was there was an ability called gather and whenever you press it your character automatically mines, woodcuts, fishes, or gathers whatever is closest to them?

foggy anchor
#

sounds incredibly macro-able

cobalt vapor
#

I mean people already do that

foggy anchor
#

not that clicking a rock isn't, but at least it'd be somewhat detectable

cobalt vapor
#

Notably in regard to pvm

#

Macros are a thing

foggy anchor
#

if it's keybound, there's zero meaningful input on the client side to detect 'humanized' mouse movement vs robotic mouse movement

signal rune
#

just click the node instead of keybinding a button that automatically seeks out the node and does it for you

cobalt vapor
#

Don't see much of a difference between target cycling tbh

signal rune
#

that's just even more afk than existing afk, and turns things meant to slightly disrupt total afk into total afking

cobalt vapor
#

Even target cycling a gathering node would be cool tbh

#

And then pressing that ability to gather

#

Would be amazing imo

#

I disagree

#

This could open new ways to make engaging Skilling content

#

You're not thinking of the possibilities

signal rune
#

no, I am. I just know better

#

it's not going to lead to anything interesting

cobalt vapor
signal rune
#

basic pattern recognition and not suggesting stuff like this

cobalt vapor
#

Already happens with other content

#

You're picking a small thing and limiting everything else because of it

compact wyvern
cobalt vapor
#

Possibly

signal rune
#

it's not support for engaging skilling content

#

it's support primarily for reducing engagement with basic skilling content

foggy anchor
#

I think AFK is generally more than adequately pandered to, with perhaps a few exceptions... creating an in-game action that 'sniffs' local grid squares for skilling options, chooses a priority based on your loadout, and navigates you to it, waits a moment, then clicks it... ... sounds like something I'd rather not have devs waste their time on trying to implement.

I'd be more interested in ammending that outlook if we were receiving engaging skilling content that made it mandatory, but given that we're not receiving that anyway, and that we're a long way off from needing new control schemes for it... nah, hard pass

cobalt vapor
#

I'd love to barge through some things in game too

foggy anchor
#

definitely terrain collision needs a quick glance-over...

cobalt vapor
#

Like those vines in the brimhaven dungeon

#

What if we could quickly use a wc ability to chop em just go through em

#

Or agility ability or something

foggy anchor
#

can't say that I've had enough trouble with them to care all that much, but if we're daydreaming about it, lets suppose we try to recycle existing mechanics to meet that need, ie:
-burning it down once to clear it permanently
-replacing it with something akin to the wall beasts in lumbridge caves

cobalt vapor
#

Maybe you "barge" toward a rock

#

And you quickly break it with a barge mining ability

foggy anchor
#

sounds like something you'd stick on a juggernaut helmet as a quest reward

cobalt vapor
#

Gather the resource and go on about your business

foggy anchor
#

use it in a 'minigame' style mining area

cobalt vapor
#

Tbh

#

I don't think we should limit it to a mini game

#

I don't see why it should be

compact wyvern
#

I was thinking more of cooking while you fish, or fletching while you woodcut

cobalt vapor
#

It could make the entire game more exciting

cobalt vapor
foggy anchor
#

Basically how RS was originally/one way it could have been developed, would be to introduce mechanics that reward you for doing things with things you just acquired...

ie: superheat smithing, back in the day.

Fletching could be faster with fresh logs, slower with logs taken from your bank, for instance.

cobalt vapor
#

Btw, I would like to show some gratitude for all the graphic improvements to the game. RS is looking beautiful

foggy anchor
#

I agree; graphic reworks are awesome, though I will caveat that a few of the more recent ones have been more of a 'texture touchup' than any kind of three dimensional overhaul...

cobalt vapor
#

One of my pet peeves is to have other options besides clicking when Skilling and I think target cycling between nodes and being able to gather with a keybind would be awesome and could open more avanues toward engaging Skilling content

foggy anchor
#

just need to get yourself a laptop keyboard, or alternative mouse design. No difference between using a mouseclick or a key press, aside from the fact that our main mouse moves too easily...

cobalt vapor
#

Notably if it's followed with other abilities like a barge style gathering one

#

Combat has target cycling I don't see why skilling can't have it either

#

Also, I hope they haven't given up on making that equip dw (main hand and offhand) ability. Could be useful for equipping tools and offhands too.

foggy anchor
#

@delicate wave Decent survey. Much appreciated. Asked some good questions. Still a few things I wish had been tackled differently, but overall, hey, 200 steps forward.

Would like to inquire however as to whether expressing "disappointment" with a certain update (ie: a 110 skill update) is being interpreted as players not wanting skilling updates, or whether it is being interpreted as wishing the update had been completed differently. Always more than a little ambiguous on many of those questions.

rose grove
#

the gather ability would be cool if e.g. it started a 3 tick or even 2 tick skilling cycle running to reintroduce tick manipulation to the game

#

but didn't actually do anything without further inputs

cobalt vapor
# cobalt vapor Maybe you "barge" toward a rock

Maybe an Agility Ability called "Charged Swing" You charge with a swing at rock, tree, fishing node, whatever, and then quickly arrive to that mode and gather a resource and then continue gathering that resource

cobalt vapor
#

Okay, what if we got city Agility specific clue scrolls. These Agility clue scrolls have different steps that have you zooming around the city or maybe even different cities. You complete a bunch of steps by talking to people or breaking urns/vases, searching boxes, cracking safes, then when you complete the agility clue scroll you get Agility xp and a reward. However you can't teleport or the Agility clue scroll disintegrates, cause of some possible made up lore reason that makes sense.

#

Cracking the safes also gives you thief xp of course

rose grove
#

I would disassociate them from clue scrolls but otherwise I like the idea

cobalt vapor
#

I guess there could be Asgarnia, Kharidian Desert, Morytania scrolls

#

These could have you venture all over that specific region for Agility xp and a reward

#

I do find the concept of treasure hunting more appealing than delivering stuff and such

#

It could possibly be tied to the task system somehow

pale mural
#

I do like the idea of skilling abilities and I think thats something that could even come with the new skilling mainhand items. Like the Bloom effect from the sickle (b) is a great example of what I was thinking.

cobalt vapor
#

Any thought about the concept of Geography or Exploration as a new skill? It might sound silly but I find the premise promising. It lends itself to aspects of cartography, exploration, resource gathering, and navigation or sailing. Aspects which already present in some in game content, like the legends quest where the player has to map out the Kharazi jungle. This also lends itself to the possibility of new geography content with the release of new areas players could map out. Whether it's knowing where certain resources are, or creatures, or bodies of waters are and such. The concept of being in a new area not having a map and not knowing where everything is until I discover it seems very appealing to me. The good thing about geography is that it could extend to the seas, caves, dungeons, to a new continent, and even to other realms. There could even be aspects of diplomacy in which you handle relations with different people or creatures you meet in new areas. Players could be sent on surveying missions to specific places to gather a specific number of resources like logs, fish, and ores.

This could be a new way for new players to familiarize themselves with existing content and areas too. I know there are a lot of awesome things to do in game but how can new players know where something specific is? such as resources or animals? Geography could serve as a way to familiarize players with everything that the game has to offer by having them map out certain areas so they know where are.

This could go well with a new area like Havenhythe or all of the new continent. Players could start mapping out local areas in the mainland and then after 20 Geography or so venture on the new continent and progress through more content in the new continent as they map it out and build new relationships with people there. At higher levels players could venture unto the seas and explore random islands for resources or creatures

#

It could even encompass weather. The good thing about geography is that it can be very broad as it basically relates to people and their environment.

#

You could possibly train it by mapping stuff out or being sent to surveying missions where you gather a specific number of resources. New areas could be added that need to be mapped out first. Rewards to include access to new islands, with new resources and creatures, new areas where you can farm different resources, possible new boosts from different cities or kingdoms.

stoic forge
#

Dungeoneering is about Exploration. I would expand on that.

cobalt vapor
# stoic forge Dungeoneering is about Exploration. I would expand on that.

Oh for sure, some would disagree but I believe Dungeoneering should expand past Daemonheim. Not saying Daemonheim dungeoneering should become redundant, it should still serve a purpose like where you can get most tokens per hr or xp or something. But yeah, dungeoneering has already expanded past daemonheim with resource dungeons and elite dungeons. I could see Exploration and dungeoneering working side by side to uncover new dungeons. I also like the idea of current caves or dungeons having different modes to explore, like the Fremnik slayer dungeon has an instance that converts the dungeon into a mini elite dungeon in which you have to eliminate all mobs and then there's a boss at the end.

The point I was trying to get at with exploration was about what Mod Lykos said about there being too much content in rs3 and also about players enjoying different tasks to do such as gathering different resources in the former yak track. Thinking about how new players could find all the new content or resources let me to geography or exploration. It seems to be a solution to giving players surveying tasks in which they can gather resources, so they know where gathering nodes are and such as well as mini games or caves or where to find wolves or grahhk or whatever. Also lends itself to sailing and such, so i think that's neat too, as well as almost anything really.

cobalt vapor
#

Could also make for engaging skilling content c:

heavy coral
# cobalt vapor Oh for sure, some would disagree but I believe Dungeoneering should expand past ...

Honestly dungeoneering should be everywhere... Varrock sewers, ardy sewers, etc.. etc.. etc... while it doesn't need to be the full blown dungeon experience there should be randomized content / challenges / puzzles/ etc... everywhere. There should also be a dungeon button haha.

I've been playing the new Zelda echo's of wisdom with the kids and family and man seeing the amount of opportunity and already existing systems in RS3 it just kills me to see how little replay value so many area's have. Shattered worlds, elite dungeons, soul wars, castle wars, the 30+ bosses the game has.... RS3 is just absolutely oozing with unrealized potential. Like I dont understand how games like Diablo back when I was still young, and new games like zelda echo of wisom that focus on the old school gameplay have modern concepts like a boss gauntlet, and RS3 with it's dozens of bosses still has not touched on that.... well ok maybe theres that quest boss pyramid thing (that was super fun)... but I mean where is the queue, where is the modern bosses.... Let me fight araxxi , twin furies and Raksha at the same time with 10 friends. Put a horde mode challenge like the troll invasion. Shit even old school RuneScape has a hunger game style minigame (which kicks ass by the way).

it's kind of crazy because it's almost more fun talking about the game then playing it haha.

stoic forge
#

Dungeoneering being everywhere I agree with.

Maybe have a Dungeoneering Tasks.
You have to kill X enemies or collect X resources from a Varrock Sewers.

#

They tried the Replay Bosses with Dominion Tower.
Which had problems.

stray sonnet
#

Is carrot boating active skilling? Pausechamp

#

I would like to mention that I also liked the maize maze a lot

pale mural
#

I was actually going to draw out a whole concept board for it but I was thinking one of the strongest ideas for a new skill would be Merchanting.

My idea behind it would be a skill that you can only train by traversing the land through everything but teleports where you interact with NPCs and connect trade routes. As you get better and connect things, you improve the shops so you could make a lot more money by selling/buying stuff. Currently only Ironman or new players really interact with shops so this could revitalize and update all shops to the modern game while also making it way more interesting.

The other thing is traversing through normal movement can also have agility tied in with weight of products being associated while also utilizing the natural game world a lot more in its unique transportation methods. So for example Hot Air Balloons avoiding certain regions but connecting stuff to Entrana.

I could see the skill as a massive game changer for Skilling in general and help a lot for money making while also being active gameplay. Though it could also have its own afk methods too but I could see it rejuvenating the RS3 Skilling ecosystem since right now proteans have really devalued nearly all skilling supplied.

stray sonnet
#

Sadge moment for me when they mention the first monitor quote

cobalt vapor
# pale mural I was actually going to draw out a whole concept board for it but I was thinking...

Could def be a way of making use of resources and giving them some extra value. I'm a bit on the fence about the money the player would get tho. I'm not against it, the Jagex team would have better info on the state of gold generation via alching, drops, and such. I suppose this could be supplemented with rewards only obtained through the giving of large amounts of resources and such. Like cosmetics, area unlocks, or just content progression.

#

I tried the boat carrot boat races the other day and I really enjoyed them! Not so much just doing the course itself, but doing the races with other players, npcs, and having to tag something to progress, was engaging to me and fun. I do wish players had a bit more input when doing the tricks. Something about just watching my character do something while I do nothing even if it is for just a small moment doesn't seem right and it seems to break an established flow I build when do the race. Idk if it's possible, but maybe require step by step space bar pressing to progress on trick on goign through the obstacles?

cobalt vapor
pale mural
#

Right now theres a massive discrepancy between skilling and pvm for money making. Having an intense method to make money at the high end for a new skill could alleviate that but currently runecrafting is the only skill thats comparable but even then theres 10+ bosses that make more money. The discrepencies have gotten extremely bad between pvm/skilling since eoc imo especially as skilling got more afk over time.

cobalt vapor
#

Yeah, most won't argue that pvm is king for money making. I guess it mostly depends on what exactly is it that goes up. Likely it should be the highest end resources that receive most of the price increases. My concern wasn't so much with the increase of gathered resources like logs or ores, but more so on the point you made about making money through shops, I think is one of things you were getting at. If the items are bought by players then there is no change to the gold that is currently in game. But if the gold comes from npcs buying your items then that is brining more gold into the game. That was mostly my concern, as to how much gold could this bring into the game. And my point was just how to go about balancing that.

#

I guess you can already sell your items to the general store and such? So would this mean upgrades through Merchanting would give you more money for items than the general store?

#

I suppose they'd have to be some limits, but yeah this is why I made as to maybe the giving of bulk items could give other rewards like unlocks or discounts or something

pale mural
#

The other thing is that this could also be a massive money sink too. Its literally merchanting so you can add foreign currencies, new resources that just absorb material costs and a lot more.

cobalt vapor
#

I saw some trading sticks on the ground that some player had dropped and was like huh, guess those are so worthless

#

But yeah, ig we could get new currencies this way

#

Like trading sticks or more

pale mural
#

Theres already quite a few currencies and you can even make special resources as expensive resources. For example what if Invention Components become something you can buy from certain species after you get to a certain level and interaction benefit. Sirenic components for 1m each or something.

#

Theres a lot of ways you can go about it.

cobalt vapor
#

There's tokkul and chimes from the arc too

#

Yeah, had't thought about earning other currencies or new currencies, yeah. I think that be better imo

pale mural
#

tokkul and chimes were the obvious but those arent too fun now since they arent really valued anymore.

#

Not to mention having a way for skillers to utilize invention to make money has been severely neglected. Though with the new skilling mainhands coming up, I hope that changes up stuff a bit.

pale mural
#

We can obviously use them as a portion of the system but not as a reward.

cobalt vapor
#

I think in this case. If we want any new currency to be successful we need to look at the latest and most successful currency Jagex has added and that is Chronotes. The Jagex team was wise to add so many archaeology boosts and unlocks and things necessary to process archaeology with only Chronotes.

#

So it's definitely possible

#

Chimes and tokkul or anything could be valuable iif they were necessary as consumables or were needed to unlock many things like chronotes

#

Chronotes also do well to make archaeology profitable aside from gathering materials

#

Or getting comps

pale mural
#

I don't think a new currency needs to be successful. In fact don't even think we need a new currency since there are so many. I also don't really like chronotes as a system but that's besides the point. My goal was to rejuvenate the Skiller economy via active skilling through merchanting and that would focus on traversing the world and making smart business decisions. It'll give a massive money sink to skilling supplies that invention doesn't cover but then it also makes agility a robust skill that has a direct effect on all the supplies/items you might be moving with Merchanting.

cobalt vapor
#

Like I said my concern is how much gp would come into the game. Not sure of the numbers. Imo to avoid any issues with gp it be best to have a unique currency to the Merchanting skill if it were to be released. I personally love Chronotes and what they do to make Archaeology profitable while not adding more gold into the game. It's probably why the Jagex team added them instead of just having collectors give you straight gp. We can disagree and that's fine I suppose.

pale mural
#

I think for the skilling economy having new active means of bringing in money is fine. Right now, its really PvM heavy since nearly all the top end money being brought is through PvM is heavily inflated. For example Sirenic Scales dropped overnight since they became so easily farmable via PvM or Arch Glacor dropping the value of nearly all skilling items within weeks. If Merchanting has an active gameplay where theres a high end resource thats fine since PvM has been doing that nonstop with every new boss encounters.

cobalt vapor
#

I'm not sure if we're on the same page, I'm referring to the concern of gp being generated from "nothing" for example like gp obtained from alching or gold coins obtained from monster drops or gold coming from invention alching machines or treasure hunter. I don't mean gold that you may gain from selling drops like Fractured Staff of Armadyl pieces or seeds or drops that you can sell to other players, since the gold is coming from other players and isn't just being generated from nothing it isn't as much of a big deal as the gold is mostly just being circulated around the rs economy. I don't think most will argue about skilling needing more valuable drops or about skilling supplies like sirenic scales or logs or whatever lacking value and in need of something to boost their value. However if at the same time this is bringing in gold from "nothing" or npcs than whatever you give such as d hide bodies or sirenic scales isn't brining as much value as it could as the new gold gold is inflating the economy with more of it.

Like I said before, I'm not sure about numbers of gold being generated into the game and going out, maybe it work out great if you could get straight gp from merchanting, but think about it. Would this be better than alching? worse than alching? I would assume in some aspects this would have to be better than alching to incentivize players to partake on it. Now let's imagine eventually a large number of players partaking in these new gold generating activities, it may eventually pose an issue.

#

But yeah having something new that could take in resources like invention does for combat gear would certainly up the price of resources and that would be awesome as skillers could make more money from gathering resources

pale mural
#

I honestly think its fine to have much higher margins of making money via Merchanting and have much higher cost values. Almost everything in the game that is metal/craftable is based off either their alch values, invention value of how valuable something is or how in demand that item is for either PvM or High End Skilling.

I think its fine to have for example Earth Battlestaffs which are 10k each roughly lets just say be 15k each if you transport said item to a location/npc that would want it. Of course thats on the lower end. (No noted items would be a smart way to utilize this system). I know these numbers are at the low end still but the higher or rare the item is like unique items Necronium Salvage would give you instead of 250k for its high alc be valued at 400k each. However if the value of the transportation or process is difficult with various setbacks/effects that happen on your journey then it becomes worth it.

Keep in mind Merchanting is still in a sense a skill that probably won't be doing 100s of mils of moving items through the economy most likely. Rather it would be much lower end until you get towards the late game leveling system and even then I feel like it wouldnt be able to compete with anything PvM most likely unless you have special mechanics or encounters that give you the opportunity to make that type of money.

rose grove
#

merchanting as a skill could be a cool concept but I'd like to understand what the point is

#

rewards-wise

#

because it can't be currency

stoic forge
#

Merchanting would be Player Owned Shop.

You look after a Shop, sell goods to NPCs, hire NPCs, collect products for the Shop.

rose grove
#

yeah I don't think that's adding anything

#

what is desperately needed is full-attention, highly-optimisable skilling

#

and if you want it to be great profit, it needs to have a high skill barrier

hollow herald
#

perhaps if it was more like reading market demands and predicting what kinda resources you'd wanna stock to keep your supply / demand flowing

#

or a stockmarket minigame

#

having some of that actually reflect in the various towns their shops could be interesting

#

even more so if shop stocks were tied to items on for example the grand exchange

#

or players making those items with the martial bows / burial equipment kinda process

cobalt vapor
#

Like I said, if merchanting were to become a skill, I think it be best if it had a new currency like chronotes, or perhaps many other currencies that you could get like trading sticks, tokkul, and chimes. Just add awesome stuff that you can buy with this new currency or currencies and it could work.

hollow herald
#

could just introduce a 4th version of chimes

#

cabbagecoins, through the roof

cobalt vapor
#

Gnomecoins

#

Goblincoins

#

etc

hollow herald
#

dwarven mint

#

Daemonheim dollars

#

Wizard wallet worth

cobalt vapor
#

I find the concept of selling your items to new markets interesting. You could open shop in grand tree, priff, cave goblin city, tzharr, the arc whatever

#

sell your items for the local currencies, use the local currencies for shop upgrades, skill progression, maybe even items necessary for new weapons or skilling offhand and such

#

Maybe there's a new skilling offhand that requires 3 pieces

#

1 is in tzharr, other in gnome village, and the other at priff

#

you gotta each of these with the local currencies or something

#

Just examples of possibilities

#

Maybe they impose taxes on trading, you could possibly also buy cosmetics with the local currencies even stuff to upgrade your poh

#

New types of clothes, perhaps even new ability codices that merchants will only sell for high amounts of the local currency

#

You could even spend money on adverstising for your shops

#

I guess you could even supply your own resources for local currency too

#

like your fish to a restaurant or ore to dwarves in keldagrim or something

#

Could even open your own restaurants. You could hire employees and you have to pay them the local currency.

#

Maybe different shops or restaurants could offer different area boosts?

stoic forge
#

I like this idea

heavy coral
#

I also like the idea. It gives me the vibe of ffxiv market boards mixed with fable 3 buy the entire realm vibes.

I think if you had an auction house style for shop locations and businesses that would be the high skill / brain power ceiling. For example a shop in priff would be more valuable then a shop in lumbridge.

However if you outfit the shop in lumbridge with items that would be valuable to the players and the shop could have an auto purchase from the GE. Keep an inventory of "X" amount of Guam herbs, eye of nets, and vials of water in lumbridge.

Allow the shops to sell items for any dollar amount. So they could sell an attack potion for 10k gold but buy them for cheaper on the ge.

Players would bid on a time to own a shop and owning shops, restaurants, services, etc... would be the primary xp and offline mode for the xp.

Whether players make money or go broke would be the skill of the game.

As far as rewards go the skill by itself would be a big reward for smart players. Giving players the ability to create portable stalls, banks, etc... (for a fee ofcourse) also creates new and exciting reward spaces.

Bossing with friends at dag kings, Ralphie king, etc... set up a stall with food potions etc... this could use frames from the fort and so stalls could be costly, but also a way to train merchandise while playing the game your way.

It would primarily be a background skill of getting people to buy from you but would contain the active component of selling items directly to merchants and maybe other shops.

Best case scenario I see merchant skill emptying out the GE of some items buy shops and stalls auto buying items. Thus raising prices of items, thus increasing the tax gain and gold removed from the game and honestly bringing back some of that old runescape vibe where if you wanted fish you would go to the fishing guild.

So buying fish from the fishing guild could give you a 10% discount on the fish so on and so forth.

#

If we really want to dream. This would also bring the concept of reputation in the different realms with different tax prices that could randomly (or purposefully) fluctuate.

#

One final note! The shop could sell a random assortment of items that local NPCS would want. So that would be part of the skill and would delete items from the game.

You could spend money to make your shop more exciting, or get better sales people, and essentially think the whole concept of archeology research but instead of chronos you get GP.

So if the shop wanted "exotic fish" selling any fish there would result in locals buying it from the player but whether they would pay more or less than the ge price depends on how the shop was managed, set up, constructed / decorated.

So if the player is selling turtles in lumbridge and the NPCS sometimes paid up to 5-200% ge price for a turtle (depending on your level and shop reputation, and maybe reputation in the area. It becomes a net positive for the game and will also raise the price of turtles and then increase the number of players doing the trawler activity. I just see nothing but good things coming from this.

The big spenders may try to buy up all the shops, however if the shops are auctioned housed and let's say you can only hold the lumbridge shop for 3 days. How many maxed out players are going to bid crazy money to own that shop for 3 days? Maybe during the first month of release but with the potential of over 300 different shops to bid for and portable stalls etc... the concept of an open auction house would stop players from bidding 100m to own the lumbridge shop as that would be geared towards lower level players and small rewards.

rose grove
#

to my mind it would need to be active-only

#

call it chimp ice runs: the skill

#

the issue with the challenge of the skill being working out your strategy and then it's pretty passive is that players will just solve it very quickly

#

there's a certain thematic dissonance in merchanting not rewarding a decent chunk of the core currency in the game (possibly via a currency exchange mechanic if you want the skill to have its own internal economy as well) - it feels like if you're making it very active, quite sweaty to the extent you're not going to just get millions of players doing it well, you can probably dump 6-8m raw gp/hr into the game without causing an untold amount of inflation (or, at least, not worse than zamorak release)

#

and perhaps the fastest levelling methods entails just making lots of transactions and ergo selling stuff at a substantial loss, which can counteract that

bronze summit
#

You need an afk or at least semi-afk (whatever that means) method or it will be despised on launch

rose grove
#

yeah just tack on a money node which is 5 min afk and provides scaling xp

#

problem solved

heavy coral
# rose grove the issue with the challenge of the skill being working out your strategy and th...

One of the funnest things for me in FFXIV was learning the crafting system/market board system.

Finding out how to make money, what items to buy, what items to crafting, what sold and why. For example RS3 quest items will always sell because someone somewhere will need it eventually.

However unlike the GE, the market board has no fixed price so the price is whatever other players are willing to sell items for. This causes all kind of merchant fights and underselling and buying out the stock so you can sell higher. However there are 8 other realms that could also be selling the same item so you sometimes aim for the "lazy tax" trying to sell a quest item for a high price counting on the fact that it takes like 2 minutes for players to switch worlds and they can only switch worlds at certain locations. So if someone is on ape atoll they could go to the ge to buy a quest item cheaper.... buuuuuut they are a long way from getting back there!

If you won the bid for the ape atoll shop for 30 days for 1 million gp and it advertised on every world it was selling whatever the quest item is for monkey madness ( karajama monkey bones ) for 50k each. You might make your million dollar investment back on just the bones or you might not.

The other really cool aspect of this is inventory management and supply and demand so this teaches real economic and lean lessons.

Or players might try to get as much xp as possible by making items cheaper then the ge to increase the amount of inventory they are selling / raise the reputation of the store.

Haha it just sounds so fun and the construction element that leans into it.

rose grove
#

it sounds very fun - like pre-GE trading - but also falling way outside the realm of what can reasonably be conceived of as a skill, imo

bronze summit
#

Something something dungeoneering

heavy coral
# rose grove it sounds very fun - like pre-GE trading - but also falling way outside the real...

I think that's what makes a skill fun.

Invention & archeology took two very unique concepts that on face value seem pretty unimpressive.

  1. i have ideas and build things.
  2. I dig into the dirt to find old stuff.

So on the surface they sound like things that would be hard to make a skill for and because of that they required to be fleshed out more and made into something amazing.

This is why I think sailing is going to be amazing.

Also on a semi related note but skills like cooking that explain themselves in the title are boring.

I take ingredients and then cook them. on the surface the skill explains itself way to easily and jagex never really asked how do we make cooking fun and exciting. Ironically the most exciting thing about cooking (getting the ingredients) has nothing to do with the cooking skill. I wish they would take lessons from ffxiv haha.

pale mural
#

I think merchanting was the idea that it would finally solve overworld traveling that isnt teleports and also make use of agility as a skill. The weight calculation stuff could be used to calculate movement of goods while it could also revolutionize the shop mechanics in RS3. Not to mention having a skill that focuses on moving around the game with unique experiences where you open trade paths via old unique methods of transportation sounds really fun. It feels like Treasure Trails mixed with something like Catan where you need to understand how to utilize goods/resources across the game world.

stoic forge
#

I am getting sold on merchanting.

Problem is atm Shops aren't dead. Every once in a while, you do find yourself at a shop.

So, I don't think shops need as a much of a revolution.

rose grove
#

I think you can absolutely do a good merchanting skill, I just think it's different to what's described above

there was an old eurojank rpg in the early 00s called Sea Dogs. In principle it was about being a pirate but honestly its trading economy was the most developed aspect of it and the ship and sword combat were both pretty awful so participating in trading was what I tended to do. Either way, I think if merchanting were to be a thing, you'd probably base it on that with some expansion.

Essentially the idea was that you'd have various islands with varying difficulty to get to (some were militarily defended, and access depended on which flags you flew. Each would have varying abilities to produce varying resources and varying demands for them. You'd be able to fill up your ship with goods at island 1 to then sell at island 2 (with about 10 islands total iirc). Demand could change while you were sailing, and while predictably an island with a lesser production capacity for product X would normally pay higher prices, in principle you could be affected by other merchants (I think - it's been a while).

The way I'd envisage merchanting is essentially that - probably with some extra mechanics at higher levels (e.g. spoilage of goods, feeding a crew, dedicating certain areas in a ship to skilled shipmates etc). Doesn't have to be sea (as I realise it's getting v close to sailing), but I think it'd be quite reasonable to link it with an eastern lands expansion. GP sink could be acquiring goods with GP and selling them into local currencies, which could then be traded for rewards. If you have both land and sea elements (with land essentially being a cool version of chimp ice runs with some work done on pathing), I think you've got a pretty decent core feedback loop for a skill.

In terms of economic integration, maybe you can take some inspiration from old essence running and have goods be tradable at target markets. Not sure though and I think it's prob unnecessary.

stray sonnet
#

I wouldn't mind it but I would prefer something that is a bit more connected to RS3, we have a high story focus so we have archeology, we have eoc bosses so we have necro, we have an advancing timeline with the 6th age so we have invention

#

My idea is astrology where we pinpoint the planets that we know in the lore and visit them but not sure about much beyond that

#

I guess you could connect merchanting with that idea too

supple rampart
#

I was wondering about combining the war table from dragon age inquisition with the FF7 card games and challenges and valkyria chronicles style battles.
So if you had a caravan network that you overviewed in the war table style eg ports but with moving things and the gielenor overview map.
Then you go to actual characters on the normal world and do the RS card game to win cards, which could happen like the merchant aka weekly.
And then those cards would give you playable monsters for your battles, where you first person a monster in turn based tactics maps and play as the monsters of runescape.
With that being the way to make your caravans successfully traversing to their destination.
Which could all be time locked so you can't max it instantly.

You'd get exp/rewards from stopping your caravans being eaten by winning the battles as your monsters.

#

I enjoyed the land battles of cutthroats as it felt hit and run and enjoyed merching on mount and blade 1 if thy want to make a pirate skill >.>

quiet surge
pale mural
#

Ports is okay but the process of the leveling as sending off stuff is super unsatisfying since it felt like a more longer formed farming game content when it released

rose grove
#

ports + temple trekking + chimp ice runs = merchanting feedback loop

stray sonnet
#

How about this but in space

pale mural
#

I really want rs3 movement across the overworld to be one of the core gameplays (that isnt teleports). It could really help Agility as a complementary skill for weight of items and more and not to mention the idea that shops can really have fun new unlocks and rewards depending on the improvement of the skill makes it really neat of a concept.

rose grove
#

an abstract thing

#

aware that zanaris is a moon, but that feels a bit off and instanced already

stray sonnet
#

There's like 20 other realms that we know about though

#

So I feel like that bridge has been crossed?

pale mural
#

Right now theres too much off world RuneScape content and it feels disconnected. Even the Arc which is technically the overworld feels disconnected because its technically not visible on the main overworld map.

rose grove
#

game just needs a decade or so of re-grounding

#

we can talk about space in 2036

stray sonnet
#

I feel like it's not a ground game in the first place though

rose grove
#

nah roots very firmly in medieval fantasy

stray sonnet
#

I would say that is more of an oldchool thing

#

And not RS3 with the 6th age and invention

rose grove
#

6th age was always a horrendous mistake and is largely what created the wound that still needs some healing after the edicts were re-established

stray sonnet
#

Hmm I don't see the harm. I think the mistake was more the story powercreep with world ending plots and nothing grounded

pale mural
#

I dont think it was a mistake but there wasnt a proper cohesive way to involve gods without them just solving or nuking all the problems.

stray sonnet
pale mural
#

But I do feel that RuneScape needs to be more grounded atm and itll help resolve a lot of the existing older content by focusing on surface world content. Like the duck quest fixed up the coast lines a bit, added new models for ducks and the like. I understand it was a gamejam but surface world content feels like the game is moving and one of the bigger issues with the sixth age was that it trapped a lot of other content in time where development for nearly all the other storylines have halted.

stray sonnet
#

Though we are also going to Vampyrium

#

I feel like it's cool to exlpore established societies through a skill

#

Actually I thought of a name

#

https://runescape.wiki/w/Cosmology

RuneScape Wiki
Cosmology

Cosmology is the study of the universe. The universe is divided into several planes of existence, sometimes known as realms, within which exist worlds and other celestial bodies. These planes are separated from each other by the Abyss, and separated from the Abyss by planar barriers. At the edge of the Abyss is a membrane, also known as the per...

rose grove
#

I guess my biggest concern is like

#

I'm fine with the notion of studying space - galileo existed, after all - but I desperately don't want more shitty little instances to 'explore' other planets

#

and I'm also very not keen on any kind of procedural generation

#

so I'm very doubtful that something involving actually visiting other planets would be done in a way I'd describe as 'properly'

#

maybe a big area expansion to zanaris would be a reasonable starting point to see if it can be done

stray sonnet
#

We do have a good graphics team, so I imagine we could have a lot of cool stuff.
I think it could still fulfill the fantasy of exploring the planet's society from the inside or just getting immersed in space merchanting

#

I was blown away by Senntisten personally

rose grove
#

Senntisten looks good but it feels very playground-y

#

obviously makes sense lore wise

#

but it doesn't feel like somewhere anyone's ever really live

#

lived*

#

I'm not sure whether there's a proper term for it but a lot of stuff like it feels very ostensibly there for the purpose of player interaction, rather than existing independently of the player

stray sonnet
#

Hmm I didn't have that thought as I was immersed in the story of the books with a roughly made area around me and it kinda made sense since it was like a time where the empire falled to ruin

#

There's also the area of like 500 houses in the distance that we can't walk into

rose grove
#

yeah senntisten gets away with it a lot more

#

just because of the narrative background

pale mural
#

I felt like archaeology was the perfect both on world and slightly off world for content at least for a new skill. I feel like anything as off world as cosmology/astrology would become so offworld that a majority of players will not recognize it as RuneScape unfortunately.

rose grove
#

the question is just how you make space believable but interesting in the context of an open-world game without the shit instances solution

#

and given a company the size of Bethesda failed, I'm not sure I expect jagex to fare (even independently of the concerns about grounding)

pale mural
#

Its why the new game works since its still just a new continent on the surface world that you can associate a lot of iconic runescape themes in a different design

rose grove
#

I've not played No Man's Sky but I've heard it's better now, maybe I can be convinced otherwise

stray sonnet
#

I think it would work since the areas already have established lore and I've really started to feel like Rs3 needs to feel more exciting after a lot of these consistent updates like 110 skills

#

Like the players wanting something new like the new landmass

rose grove
#

the new landmass sounds potentially great

#

hoping it forms part of the same base map and feels lived-in

#

generally I am not a fan of 'exciting' being the metric for content. I only want content that makes the game better as a whole, and I fear hype regularly takes away from that by pushing towards expansion which nullifies parts of the game necessary for it to remain a coherent whole

stray sonnet
#

I think I would prefer if they focus on Vampyrium itself rather than the Morytania part because it's lore that we already know. That's why I'm okay with space because we also know those areas so it feels more connected to the game than a strange new area

#

Like even if the new area is directly connected

#

Space still feels closer

rose grove
#

eh

#

it has travel which the player doesn't do themselves (unless you're introducing space flight mechanics)

#

like, this is what I dislike about the world gate

#

it's just sending me somewhere completely different with no realistic frame of reference for how the player got there mechanically beyond some handwave 'idk magic from gods or something' bs

pale mural
#

vampyrium was the thing i was least excited about from all the new stuff.

rose grove
#

what I'm most excited about with Havenhythe is how it interacts with existing kingdoms narratively and politically

pale mural
#

would have liked gnome direction but o well

rose grove
#

presumably King Roald is aware of Havenhythe

pale mural
#

yea im really interested on how its been secluded and the effects of it

rose grove
#

what do the White Knights think

#

etc

stray sonnet
#

The thing is we never heard of Havenhythe so it's like we aren't finding out about lore that we know and want to know more about but instead just something brand new

rose grove
#

right, but once it's in the game, it needs to feel like it's always been in the game

#

I'm not in a theme park, I don't want to be artificially signposted to 'EXCITING NEW STUFF WOOO'

pale mural
#

I think it being based on the first age is sort of insane since thats a massive gap of knowledge

rose grove
#

yeah

#

I'm v keen on exploring the past of gielinor

pale mural
#

Even pre-morytania we know Drakan corrupted the land and thats it

rose grove
#

I'd love to see more expansion on enchanted key stuff etc - give me a questline about the development of misthalin

pale mural
#

I could see a tie between the two

stray sonnet
#

I think the digsite is first age but not sure about the area

pale mural
#

digsite should be all zaros stuff which is second age. I dont think we really have anything from the first age besides maybe what we learned about Jack, Death and Rasial.

stray sonnet
rose grove
#

yeah idk

#

I guess I feel like

#

I'd rather explore more about the stuff that we already know about

#

depth ahead of breadth at this point, the game is already very broad

stray sonnet
rose grove
#

do you mean like

#

the fairy queen

#

afaik there's no other suggestions in-game of NPCs in space?

stray sonnet
#

Like just that we already know about these planes in space. I wasn't really focusing on the aspect of traveling between them but I suppose we could have like a fairy ring minigame for it

rose grove
#

yeah it's still just some bs to get there isn't it

#

I can't take my player there myself

pale mural
#

Ya I like the concept of world gates and fairy rings between it feels more like Stargate and I don't really see RuneScape like that still in my head.

stray sonnet
#

So maybe there's like a dangerous temple trecking style between planes

#

And you're like a brave merchant going between them to do trades and explore societies

pale mural
#

I would rather do that on the surface world. Having goblin raiders, or highway men attacking or wilderness mobs pop in smelling something or bandits in the desert. It feels thematically really good to add in a lot of extra design space for all these unique entities we have all over geilinor utilized. We could even get unique new heroes or villains introduced like the signature heroes or a lot of the new folks like Meg/Phillip/etc or new villains they want to introduce somehow since they want to steal particulare resources. They dont need to be combat only and it could be like various things that happen like random events or what happen with temple trekking.

stray sonnet
#

Hmm in my mind that doesn't feel connected to the Rs3 story as much, which focuses more on gods and their followers, all of whom are from elsewhere

pale mural
#

Depends, I was thinking very early game in that content but you can easily transition to various high end villain groups we've dealt with like Black Knights at the level of commanders or Glacors having some unique reason to attack you.

stray sonnet
#

I feel like travel is supposed to be about exploration though and we have a lot of untapped lore in space. Exploring not just new exciting areas but the way that the characters who came from there lived in those areas and the ones that still do

pale mural
#

I agree but theres so much just existing content that its really untapped. Like Keldagrim has full out corporations moving masses of goods and all we see are some moving carts. Meanwhile you have Entrana as a massive religious site where you don't see any unique travelers heading to the lands for religious reasons. Desert has Ali Morrisane being a famous merchant and I guarantee him and the Bandits/Poliniveach entites have interesting relationships. Theres just so much existing content that they can really shine through with a skill like merchanting if done right imo. Not to mention you could have whole new regions you can add as new places to travel to because you are a famous merchant so you can bring in goods which I think would work really well with the new continent.

rose grove
#

as a game as a whole, Runescape is already massive

#

it doesn't really need more exploration, it's just that you've done it already

#

and recent 'exploration' has felt massively underwhelming

stray sonnet
#

Archeology was the recent exploration it was good, finding out more about areas that existed in the lore

stray sonnet
pale mural
#

I feel like quests would be a solution to a lot of content but I don't think they're frequent enough to warrant content like this that really focus on social interaction. You can even be forced to avoid certain areas because certain regions are hostile to certain carriage of goods that have a mark or indication of what trader or group your employed with.

stray sonnet
#

I don't think merchanting would create as much hype as something out there like the old space lore but maybe it could serve to fix an issue. Basically the issue of not seeing players roads and just only at social skilling locations

#

Would be nice to see players on roads

pale mural
#

Yea I was thinking this would be a really good way to tie up agility, create a unique new economy and also just more overworld content where people are milling about all over the game. Not to mention I think this could be active skilling money making at the top end depending on they make it end game with timed content and other mechanics.

#

I personally think its like treasure trails mixed temple trekking but without the instanced content except for in things like random events that effect the traversing of the overworld.

cobalt vapor
#

You could probably lump both merchanting and astrology under exploration tbh

pale mural
#

astrology could be an actual skill that I think could do really tbh. I just dont think its something we want just yet.

#

I imagined the skill to work in a completely different manner for it

rose grove
#

I think astrology is really quite good in melvor idle, but I have no idea what a core feedback loop would be in RS3 because for the love of god we do not need another node afk skill

hollow herald
#

look at the stars for a sign
write down what it means
do a treasure trail

#

look at another starsign
prepare ritual to attune to it
gain a boon that's active until you attune to another

#

map some star charts
spruce em up with some fancy art
sell em to libraries for money

#

read npc fortunes

west lion
#

Depends on how you want to go about it, Astrology or Astromancy or whatever can lean towards skilling or combat

hollow herald
#

look at the stars
figure out what it omens
go to prophesized location
stop invasion of e.g. airut

pale mural
#

So my vision for an Astrology skill that would be integrated with the current game without it turning into DG 2.0 since that would be the obvious way to approach it where you would use the stars to access a new place that gives you unique rewards/interact. The way I was approaching it is in the way of how I thought Divination should have been designed. The idea would be like necromancy rituals you fabricate at locations (not a pre-ordained location). These rituals would require unique movement in specific order sort of like how hunter works in the gameplay loop but across the world.

The rewards would be something like how prayer works but you don't pray to the gods for their prayers. Instead the stars have their own whole brand of "prayers". Instead of combat orientated these new prayers are all aligned to the different noncombat skills based on the Stars the skill is associated with.

Honestly it was the weaker of the concept between merchanting and astrology so I was way less interested of its reward space since I thought even my concept of the core gameplay wasnt great.

cobalt vapor
#

Could we possibly have a not a constr rework but more of a new constr update that let's us build our own castle with customizations, walls, stones, colors, styles. Just start from scratch tbh, I dont think most players would mind, then just refund players for the what they built in their houses from what we know that they've spent, for example, demonic thrones, dung monsters, etc.

#

be cool to have something along the lines of what you can do in Dragonwilds if possible.

#

The fort forinthry is cool and all but it really lacks customization

pale mural
#

Design wise I think thats what theyve been doing with construction. Contracts and the Fort were great ways to develop the skill without being at the PoH as the focal point. I think it needs another maybe something at the early game for construction and maybe some other tangible benefits or good unlocks for leveling construction that arent tied to the PoH. For example, having some new crafted construction placed locations like the Hidey Hole but benefits towards other skills somehow.

cobalt vapor
#

The thing about a home is that it's very, well you. It's up to you to design the color, the floors, the walls, the arrangement of furniture, pictures, what you choose to showcase. Rn, thats very limited.

Something I would like to see that could help the game is maybe have player made pieces of furniture that look amazing and maybe even give boosts. Just like crafting and smithing have masterwork pieces, construction could too. At the same time maybe we can change the colors of these masterwork wardrobes or bookcases or whatever. These could require a variety of resources to make. Talk about making Skilling more profitable, the answer could lie in construction as it's literally a skill in which it's entire premise is using all types of materials, fabrics, stones, gems,metals, woods, paints and more to create something beautiful and useful.

#

.
.
I'm not saying everything in your poh should be meta at everything, but I don't think it be bad to have your own herb patch or flower patch in your poh. Talk about player slayer dungeon, what about player owned Skilling areas? So combat can get their own private secluded place with various monsters of your choosing, but Skilling can't?

#

Talk about engaging content? Being creative is engaging content. People spend thousands of hours building in Minecraft, heck I've done it too

#

Just building stuff, not doing combat or anything else

#

Be cool if you could even make castles with other friends too

#

People like being creative and construction really holds this potential for rs players to unleash their creativity with an rs twist. This could be very promising if the right tools are given to players

stray sonnet
cobalt vapor
#

I would like to see portables being able to be made via construction and possibly smithing. Perhaps there could be better versions of them like Masterwork furnaces, or Masterwork Anvils, Mastwerwork ranges, fletchers, whatever

#

These could be made in pohs or player owned castles. Maybe they could give daily limited boosts to xp, maybe you get double xp for 5 items made in masterwork skilling work stations. This way they don't necessarily have to overtake other skilling areas but there's still a neat daily option for players to partake if they wish so

minor halo
#

Well said .. why do I see this now this blog LMAO

I'm really in to 'trying' to design, write ideas for runescape. I will keep saying that we need a big rework for Skill Guilds

#

Player tools. If a task can be done without meaningful tools (weapons, equipment, abilities, etc) then there is nothing invested in its success.
I think giving different type of weapons more use in some ways can make quite some weapons and the range of tiers useful again. Sorry for my bad wording. Like a spear is useful for Corp, spears are important. But stuff like javelins, halberds, ...

#

Skill dependencies. All skills should have dependencies that are vaguely circular. Mining gets ore. Ore becomes swords. Swords kill monsters. Monsters should drop mining equipment, not swords
Good point, I guess they could drop a sword but maybe lower level then they are or at a lower rate.

#

Rewarding player success. Endorphin rushes are why PVM has any popularity at all. Skilling is utterly lacking this. We need rare drops across the board.

I tried leagues in 2023 and came back in 2024 (including osrs holidays and some nostalgia), and I really liked the Forestry system and Kourend favour system > where the Kourend favour system was not 100% perfect but loved the favour and stuff locked behind it.

Such active events from small to big and on your location or a different location (like evil trees a bit) are or would be very nice.

#

This with including and reworking Skill Guilds with different built options, customizing, tiers, ... where Fort stays the main hub (still dislike it a bit, sorry) and the command center and every skill has its own guild.
Give every guild the skill tutor, 99 and a 120 master and some spotlight system over the whole map of Gielinor.

Shortly said.

minor halo
#

First thought was like a second PoH (but with fresh code or how to say it) with the ability to be inside some environment, giving it a more pleasant and lively feeling

cobalt vapor
# minor halo Also thought of this, this could be on the main land so we have an environment, ...

Oh for sure, would love to see that, I guess they could expand it further into wildy near the fort or something. I for sure would like to see player owned castles with more customization options and maybe they even have a player owned skilling habitat that we can build where we can skill, like a player owned dungeon but for skilling. Maybe we can get random rare tree saplings from wc or concreted ore deposits from mining that we could use to build these mining or wc Skilling habitats in our player owned castles

minor halo
#

Like spots in different regions

#

And you can choose where to build your poh

#

But instead of an instance with those edges and sky which makes it somehow nice but empty, you can choose what environment

#

Like I would choose a spot in the desert

#

At some point maybe they could think of the Church of You concept again 🙂

heavy coral
stoic forge
#

Astrology, is just a space adventure with better fairy ring system.

heavy coral
# minor halo > Rewarding player success. Endorphin rushes are why PVM has any popularity at a...

It's crazy that every skill does not have an established and or useful guild.

The more I try other games the more painfully obvious this gap is becoming. With the exception of a few games like final fantasy most other rpgs/mmorpgs do not have as much content or options for training skills and yet runescape 3 is the only example I can think of that does not have tutors and guilds for all of its skills.

stoic forge
#

The best guilds in-game are the ones with low skill reqs. like Arch, Theif and Invention.

minor halo
#

With or without Tutorial Island to be the ONLY tutorial, with tutors for every skill and being able to visit again afterwards > needs to reach surface again, not just sunken + mobile users will start on a different island hmm :/

Cooking Guild for example : just like other skill guilds, it has several tiers locked behind a Cooking level and maybe some quest/achievement. Possibility to to customize it and have different objects placed in it but still NOT instanced, you can see others. The main npc's in the guild are the tutors (lvl1), master (lvl99) and a grandmaster (120), there could be requests like PoF from e.g : Cook, Cook's brother, King Roald, A gnome from Gnome Restaurant, ...

Favour system = max 100% for max benefits or unlocks, this can drain if you don't pay attention or work for the guild. there could be 2 favours, a personal and a community one. Cooking Guild can have some sort of spotlight system (other guilds as well), where it spotlights a certain area or areas on Gielinor which will boost cooking xp or other benefits there. (making old content or areas more important).

Fort stays the main skilling hub and command centre, let's say you want to upgrade something in the Cooking guild and you need wood, stone and fletching stuff, you need to work in or for the Woodcutting, Mining/Smithing and fletching guild and transport those materials.

cobalt vapor
cobalt vapor
# minor halo At some point maybe they could think of the Church of You concept again 🙂

this would be cool too, it might be more ambitious but a player owned town or city would be interesting. They're kinda already tried this with Kingdom of Misc and the Fort but it's been very limited. A new option that gives you more control as to what is built, how it's built, and where it's built would be very cool, but like I said that might be a bit too ambitious, but cool none the less.

#

Or possibly... A player owned island where you can build your own castle and your own town, lol

#

This might be better, lol

cobalt vapor
#

Maybe there are like 5 islands around Gielinor, there's a 1 with a wildy biome, 1 with an ice biome, 1 with a forest biome, so on, so on. Maybe you could settle one (or maybe even all of these, lol) and build your own castle and town there.

pale mural
#

The biggest issue for astrology in my head still is that its too cosmic which we're not at for content wise. It got a bit out of hand with all the Gods being back on Geilinor so thats really my issue with it. Just narratively too early for it. Maybe the skill after this one sure, but right now we need to focus on more current on world geilinor stories. Desert. Gnomes. Penguins. And a lot more are way more intriguing than going cosmic again.

#

I trust the jmods to make skills since the last few have had great narrative design

#

and progression have been solid too

hollow herald
#

ain't the entire point of astrology, that you observe from the ground?

rose grove
#

yeah

#

no need to involve space

#

just need to find an interesting ground mechanic

#

and given it notionally involves mysticism etc you can get quite interesting and lore-y imo

cobalt vapor
#

Gonna tie this into exploration again cause this could just be part of it. We already have coordinates in game and these could play a part in that somehow.

hollow herald
#

calculate coordinates that a falling star will land

#

mine it for some semi-random ore

heavy coral
# minor halo With or without Tutorial Island to be the ONLY tutorial, with tutors for every s...

The idea of locking people out of guilds is an outdated concept based on runescape classic design.

The guilds used to give you a competitive advantage but I think that was always terrible game design.

I mean a basic concept that has been great in every game I've tried is guild quests.

So for the most part these are your predictable go and create, gather, "X" quest lines that give you access to more advanced features or items from the guild.

Sprinkle some unique experiences in there every 5 to 10 guild levels and some gear to support the skill (even if it's degradeable) and it would be hard to go wrong.

As an example of degradable gear there could be items like the ring of fishing that allow you to catch 3x the fish for the cost of "x" water runes & fishing bait for "y" time.

One note I wanted to add I remember the safe cracking quest lines and that is a really great but most likely not sustainable or realistic example of a unique quest lines tied to a guild.

While it would be epic to get something along that quality for each skill. The guild quests would most likely not be real quests unless jagex was feeling really bold and motivated to deliver those kind of quests with new gameplay options.

quiet surge
pale mural
#

I think Ive only really liked the thieving guild, invention guild and somewhat the max guild.

Thieving guild has the best progression system of any guild. Solid quest/thieving progression and all around my favorite unlocks too with the unique things it adds. The only thing I dont like is the doors being meta for new accounts.

Invention Guild having the machines with the inv part 2 update was massive and its still going to see permanant long term use since its that game defining of an unlock. Otherwise nothing really special for it.

Max Guild use to be even better before PvM Hub release but the free teleport to it with a GE was really nice. Not to mention the portals to unique locs that you can set up. Its been powercrept just a tadbit though but I don't think any new hub can compete unless Jagex plans to add a 120 hub in several years from now once all 110s/120 stuff wraps up.

Most other guilds just havent held up in time. Like the ranging guild hasnt been touched in nearly 20 years besides a small portion where Zanik comes to visit once she starts exploring the surface world. Also I don't consider the Manor Farm a good guild because you cant even tell its a guild if you're a casual player. Solid unlocks but it feels unstructured.

hollow herald
#

i just want em to add a battlebots arena to the invention guild, that let's you build and maintain one through basic components etc.

#

just think of the potential

#

robot chicken vs robot sheep

#

2 robot imps punching eachother

rose grove
#

I don't think guilds have ever been about competitive advantage

#

at no point in history has 32 cooking or 40 crafting been unduly challenging (especially cooking)

#

rather, they've existed as progression milestones

#

ideally, you'd have guilds add mechanics/content to skills, where it possibly doesn't make sense to introduce these mechanics ab initio given new players are introduced to a lot of different skills and you probably don't want the outset to be much more complicated than 'click tree'

#

the current issue is largely just that, to the extent that they ever served that purpose, they no longer do

#

and it's true that a big part of the issue is portables, but guilds weren't exactly thriving hubs even before that

#

(as an aside, while guilds remain connected to skill levels, which I think is a good way of unlocking them, they shouldn't be about competitive advantage because skill levels ceased to be a meaningful differentiator a long time ago)

minor halo
#

due other games having this or tried

#

Will give this blog some time soon to read it all, I still believe skill guilds can be a nice thing and should be some core element ingame

pale mural
#

I remember when a lot of the guilds were being added, the idea was that this was a massive milestone for progression where you unlocked a lot of unique new rewards. Unfortunately due to them being released in Classic or early RS2, the reward space obviously became irrelevant over time. Most of them just don't fit as a design space for progression anymore. Warriors Guild taught us how to utilize the RS2 combat system when classic changed over to the tick system. Even though it added additional defenders and more that initial design and even later functional usage just became useless. A lot of the other guilds are in a similar state. Now I think you can make them relevant present day again if there is a cohesive long term idea of what role each guild will play for its corresponding skill but at the given moment its easier to ignore them. Though based off of how a certain Jmod phrased a gamejam post on twitter, I think we will be seeing the crafting guild being utilized in the 110 update.

#

So thatll be interesting to see how you revamp an older guild for modern gameplay.

heavy coral
heavy coral
heavy coral
# minor halo Hmmm k and why are you mentioning quests for guilds 😮

The guild quests that I have experienced are a way for players to interact with the skill and then learn one function at a time. For new abilities like safe cracking I think it's reasonable to put that behind a true quest but it doesn't have to be.

As an example the crafting guild quest might have a player make an sapphire ring from scratch and then enchant it.

This does multiple things.

  1. Gives the players the items to craft a ring.

  2. Teaches the player to craft the ring.

  3. Teachers the player they can enchant the ring.

  4. Has the player interact with the economy.

  5. Gives the player an item they can either use as an upgrade and or sell (interacting with the economy and or shops).

  6. Extra credit: Guild quests can have the player travel the world.

If you aimed to have 50 guild quests that would start at a novice level but then by the end of the quest the player could be a master of the skill.

It would even be possible to add guild quest items that essentially consume resources from the game but their only purpose is to turn in for a quest reward and some sexy bonus xp.

So at the end of the day players could opt not to do guild quests but usually the rewards are worth it and it gives the players a place to go to learn a skill.

stoic forge
#

Nerco sort of did this with Kili Tasks and it definitely helped the skill.
I could see it working with the other skills.

quiet surge
heavy coral
heavy coral
quiet surge
#

in my opinion, guilds in game would fall under 2 categories with some overlap

  1. exclusivity
  2. convenience

for exclusivity, i don't think it is a good design, unless there is a strong use case for that it

but, we shouldn't make it such that you make things impossible to get without a guild, such that you justify needing a guild for it

for convenience, similar concept. we shouldn't make it difficult to access, just to justify having convenience, when convenience should have been the design choice from the start

foggy anchor
# minor halo Well said .. why do I see this now this blog LMAO I'm really in to 'trying' to ...

@delicate wave

I am very very much looking forward to this 'Game Health Update'. Thank you for this. Feeling heard is a nice change, in the skilling community... I'm particularly excited about the idea that this is the start of ongoing balance efforts. The anxious little tingling at the back of my neck says 'don't believe it until it happens'... but I'm going to try to trust that Jagex has reviewed the data and understands how absolutely critical this is for the health of the game, no matter the feedback you might get.

I am certain you're currently/going to be receiving a fair bit of negative backlash from the casual PVM community... I would suggest addressing more directly the intention that the health of the game / profitability being discussed is more about improving skilling than trashing PVM, as so far, the highlight of the news post is almost exclusively the decrease of profitability for PVMers... which doesn't clearly indicate why the update is important, in a way that PVMers may be accepting of.

It would be my suggestion to consider adding certain Archeology materials (never ALL materials) to PVM drops, if balancing profitability is essential. Arch can afford a partial share with PVM, as long as damaged artifacts and most materials are still locked to Excavation, for acquisition. Reducing the cost of certain Arch materials potentially also increases profitability for Arch, if Chronotes retain the same value.

quiet surge
# heavy coral The mining guild had like 20 coal rocks and like one of two mithril rocks in the...

the way i see it, mining kind of was a decent design.

but eventually, it became the default go-to for everyone who needed coal, mith and adamant ores

with players competing for resources, mining guild gave an alternative avenue as one where more options are available. but it doesn't monopolize the resource as the only provider of it - it was basically the solution to problem of competing resources (although eventually it itself became that problem)

to some extent, it gave convenience too, because of being a lot closer to the bank (70% faster?)

foggy anchor
# quiet surge in my opinion, guilds in game would fall under 2 categories with some overlap 1...

Hmm. Guilds. Feels odd at first to me, for some reason, but I'm certainly not against the idea...

I think that the biggest potential benefit to guilds is the idea of making 'custom' orders, through the guild, for NPC buyers... and the item never has to be anything other than an item.

ie: A rich elven nobleman wants a fancy blurite / elder rune sword, with ores gathered under the effects of a seren prayer. Will reward increased mining/smithing Exp, and possibly gold/items of value (elven ritual shard?), while adding easy diversity to contracts, without requiring dev time to actually produce said blurite/elder rune sword, or 'crystalized' ores. Contract materials can be stored in a contract, bag, which basically functions as a checklist, and forged into a generic icon with a symbol in the corner.

This would allow for dynamic content... though not automatically super engaging, it's certainly superior to mindlessly slugging the same rock for 6 hours at a time, and has great potential for add-ins, like 'hardening a sword by dragonfire' or 'coated with spider venom'.

In an ideal world, these guilds would also allow players to post contracts for created items, bypassing the GE slots for certain items, but basically using the same system, in reverse (allowing potential sellers to see the posted bids and work towards filling contracts of their choice).

#

--
In the interest of 'aiding' players who are members of the guild, dynamic buffs that, for instance, reduce a material cost or increase creation speed of the 'most wanted'/'most valuable' contracts currently open could be quite interesting... grinding out tens of thousands of magic longbows until the profitability for onyx bolts is better, so the guildmaster swaps the production tables to help produce onyx bolts instead. A minimum timeframe between swaps would be required, to prevent second-by-second flip-flops, and potentially a maximum time spent on any given item, to prevent stagnation.

near grove
cloud gorge
#

@delicate wave

While I agree with balancing drops I wonder why you nerf common drop tables so harsh?

Some of the nerfs are justified (arch glacor scaling with mechanics feels justified) but what about raksha? A lot of people feel the common drop there is already as bad as it is.

heavy coral
heavy coral
# cloud gorge <@177901758419435520> While I agree with balancing drops I wonder why you nerf ...

I have the unpopular opinion that the nerfs were good.

As someone who was able to push glacor and zamorak all other forms of money making felt bad by comparison. An average of 4-5mill gp for less than 5 minute kills with an increased chance of getting a rare unique each kill? Literally zamorak was so good at printing money that nothing else really mattered. Sure I could go do tree or zuk... but why? (Speaking from a pure money making standpoint).

I still feel that by adding an Araxxi enrage system to bossing and or individual bosses that would help curb the power creep and allow them to explore more boss specific reward spaces.

heavy coral
# quiet surge the way i see it, mining kind of was a decent design. but eventually, it became...

I mean if you look at what the mining guild is. It literally is just a location on the map that has resources by a bank.

Not much of a guild by definition haha.

When new concepts of mining like the coal mine carts came out the mining guild started to become less and less relevant. Now I feel like a new player in 2025 could never visit the mining guild and it would make no difference to their leveling experience.

That's a huge missed opportunity in my mind! Granted the most interesting thing they might be able to do with the mining guild might just be a glorified bar crawl across the world... but it would still make things more interesting.

Really when I think about it, the one thing runescape is missing is rare and ultra rare skilling materials.

Gems used to be that back in the day. Where you got a little excited when you found a diamond. In a sense we have the seren spirits that act as that "rare" engage endorphins response to skilling but I don't think that fills the gap of missing unique materials for skills and unique (hopefully degradeable) rewards.

cloud gorge
#

Nice to hear a PVMer say that this might be a good change. Because I think most PVMers are unhappy about this.

minor halo
minor halo
minor halo
quiet surge
quiet surge
pale mural
#

Honestly I don't really like having too many mixed resource hubs. I understand the intent was to create hubs that helped create intentionally designed spaces where people are grouped. The problem is Fort has really overshadowed all the other hubs since its become too good. I think ideally it would have been GE as Early Game, Fort as Mid Game, Prif as Mid to Late Game. Then the Guilds/Cities would have their own specific skilling specialty like maybe Keldagrim for 120 Smithin or Dorgeshkun as 120 crafting. Now obviously there would be a mix of other skills too or maybe even double to triple focused skilling content but thats at the very end game for 120s is how I envision it.

heavy coral
#

Being able to buy things to complete the quest is not a bad thing and non tradeable items can be mixed into the guild quests.

As an example; let's pretend the guild quest system goes to 100.

Level 1 crafting guild quest: 1 RIng of recoil.

Level 2 crafting guild quest: 10 rings of recoil.

Level 3 crafting guild quests: 20 amulets of strength.

Level 4: 50 holy symbol necklaces

Level 5: 500 empty plant pots.

Level 6: 500 accursed urns

Level 7: 100 carapace armor
100 snake skin armor

Level 8: 20 strung rabbit foot, 10 gloves of silence (having this buyable will allow new crafter to progress while rewarding long term crafters/ hunters).

Level 9: 10 crab helmets and crab claws

Level 10: forget the ring of power. 10 gold 10 silver 1 ruby, emerald, sapphire, diamond, dragonstone, jade, topaz, 10 onyx dust. Do this (10 times) in 10 different Dwarven anvil across the world.

Then you can add the extra step s like harden the ring of power by killing a great lava monster (Jad).

Temper it by killing a great ice monster (arch glacor)

Enchant it at a place of great cosmic power (cosmic avatar with 100 cosmic runes)

Obtain a blessing from 10 wise monks: entrance, monks guild, so on and so forth.

Fast forward: level 90 create and give away a blessed flask.

Level 91 create a noxious weapon

Anyways you get the idea
You could really boost skilling profits by making some of these items in demand by guild quests.

I would 100% also do what you suggested by having a daily go do this skill here and turn in this item today. Players should want to interact with the guild.

rose grove
#

I like that

#

what's the reward for these

pale mural
#

I think what your proposing is what the Hunter Guild in OSRS does and I would be so down for that but I don't want it to be too on the nose. Having such predictable 'questing' loses the charm of RuneScape Questing.

rose grove
#

yeah I'd def drop the word 'quest' but I don't think it's a big issue

pale mural
#

But a variation of it would be good where its active system where your given maybe tasks and you complete them similar to Slayer.

#

Different Crafting specialists have different unique unlocks or even cosmetic unlocks.

#

Honestly I would love if a lot of the processing skills had something like that similar to how we do it for Archaeology. Its one of the most satisfying systems in the game.

heavy coral
#

I would agree to dropping the quest name and just call them missions or some variant of the word.

The reward spaces for completing the skill missions should be heavily focused around the actual skill.

In my mind there would be 3 goals and the rewards would support these goals.

  1. An alternate path to level 99.

  2. Teach players how to create atleast 1 of each item

  3. Unique and fun experiences that changes the gameplay or items you wear when doing a skill that are obtained by the guild and stay relevant in future updates.

So example rewards:

  1. (Upgradeable) Clay golem worker - give the golem (x) clay and then you can teach him how to make things. So he would give you unfired resources and 10% of the xp ( in the form of bonus xp) from him making things.

You would need to obtain rare and hard to get items to make scrolls to teach him how to make new items. These items could also be rewarded by the guild.

  1. Enchanted weaving needle (degradeable to dust) instantly turn an entire inventory of leather into an item and triple the xp received.

  2. Hazelemeres ring of crafting. Has a tiny chance to double ANY item crafted.

Making a seren god bow? Nox scythe? Insert rare item here. This is your ring.

Now anyone who has ever owned a hazlemeres knows that it most likely will not be worth the price and will most likely not double the item you want. However someone, somewhere, will get lucky and everyone will want one.

quiet surge
heavy coral
# quiet surge these reminds me more of the repeatable tasks, like farming, to gain reputation,...

It's kind of implied by the name quest, mission, etc.. that there is an end point to the task.

I would say the difference between repeatable tasks and a well thought out set of missions is the experience. Repeatable tasks are just giving you a random task to do with no thought of if you can do it and if it will be fun.

The missions should be designed to be like "this is how you craft". I was just trying to showcase that having tradeable items related to missions doesn't have to be a bad thing. A player who learns how to make urns and then goes on to make 500 urns gains levels, experience, and could earn a big pay out by selling the urns. This rewards new players.

At the same time some players already have 200m xp, they could skip this mission by buying the items (which is also rewards new players) and getting to the unique experiences of missions like forge the ring of the power etc..

I would say you can definitely start to have more untraceable unique missions once you teach the new player the basics of jewelry, leather working, glass blowing, etc..

So anyways yes there would 100% be an endpoint to the missions, but as skills go to 120 and beyond new missions could be added. In addition if they wanted to introduce new training styles they could add new missions.

rose grove
#

based on what we're talking about as missions already

#

they're probably providing a large amount of xp worth of content

#

maybe you can continue rolling tasks like you can continue city quests after 200 but they don't have distinct rewards, just whatever per-task rewards are balanced at

pale mural
#

Its just the idea of Slayer Tasks/Archaeology Collections. You complete certain things and get some benefits/unlocks.

#

Processing skills should definitely have that

#

I do also like how Construction Contracts work but the unfortunate thing is that it doesn't have enough reward space but something similar for other skills would also be great.

heavy coral
#

I would totally agree! I think the later missions as an examples items like blessed flask will keep players busy for weeks.

So I could see some path to have master missions that would be designed to take 2 weeks but give the players considerable reward. As an example let's say the level 101 master mission would be to create 10,000 urns. During the time of the mission the player could have a buffer applied (master mission) giving them increased xp making urns the best xp (at the time) for that player.

To lean into what verse is trying to do the master mission could also apply bonus xp if the task is done at "x" location. This location could be the same for all players at that mission.

Now let's say you would rather pluck out your own eyes then craft 10,000 urns. You could buy urns and trade them in to complete the mission.

I mean if you really wanted to hit on the notion of becoming a professional the missions could aim to provide 10,000 hours of experience. (haha I know that's extreme).

pale mural
#

I think 10k is a bit excessive but the idea is good. I think it would be better if its some very annoying processed item that you do a few of rather than large crazy numbers. I think a healthy way Jagex has done it is the Thieving Guild Point system where you unlock the better stuff to do longer runs of safecracking and more.

heavy coral
#

I would agree.

I think making guilds relevant for new players and keeping guilds relevant for players already at 99 will need two different design approaches.

As a person who got to 99 crafting by just cutting gems. It was awful but there was no reasonable alternative and or fun alternative.

As an example I got to 99 hunter and beyond doing big game hunter. It was fun, put some jiggle in my wallet, but it was not the fastest method. However because it was fun and profitable I didn't care that it was not the fastest method.

So I think the problem that has to be solved is how do you make other forms of crafting. 1. Fun. 2. Profitable or 3. The fastest method.

If we stick with the crafting urns example.

Can crafting 10,000 urns be fun? Probably not.

Can crafting 10,000 urns be profitable? Yes but maybe not the most profitable.

Is crafting urns the fastest xp? O god no.

So I think for a player with 99 crafting. The only way to convince that player to craft urns and feel good about it is to either 1. Make the urns more profitable. 2. Make the urns the faster xp.

So to play devils advocate. As terrible as 10,000 urns sounds if that mission only ever exists 1 time it will likely make urns significantly more profitable and or increase interest/ demand in items like brooch of the gods.

With all of that said I do 100% agree that something as oppressive as 10000 urns should be end game content and nowhere near the new player experience.

Also as a bonus note the farming guild in OSRS has a lot of similarities with the thriving guild in rs3.

rose grove
#

eh I think if it's getting close to the end of your progression path, 10k urns is fairly reasonable

#

it's what, 5 hours or something?

pale mural
#

I think I got most of my 99s back with minigames. Use to run them all since a lot of them had unique money makers 10+ years ago.

#

Unfortunate that theyve been ignored so much since then 😦

heavy coral
rose grove
#

then fire urn is maybe 5x as fast

heavy coral
rose grove
#

then adding the runes is about 90k/hr

#

so maybe 6 and a bit hours

pale mural
#

It feels weird saying minigames are alive in osrs when bot infestation is that bad... Feels often soulless since all the minigame communities that were being organized have just been lost in time =/

#

even osrs since most people are just clogging

rose grove
#

yeah osrs is a good example of the difficulty of reviving minigames

#

if you introduce new rewards, you need to find ways to ensure that the best way to obtain the rewards is also the best way to accomplish victory for the player's team

#

and that's very complex

pale mural
#

I think RS3 can make minigames into active skilling since we clearly lack active skilling profitability that can match how bossing works and I think Skilling Minigames can do that. Like All Fired Up giving unique rewards when doing such an intense activity would be really fun but also fun gameplay with the Wilderness threat back narratively wise. Or Blast Furnace being the way to make cannonballs in a very large amount that doesnt require you to afk kill corp for it. Lots of fun ways to go about it imo but they dont really have a design theory for minigames and have always tried to solve it with bandaid fixes the past decade.

rose grove
#

yeah agreed

pale mural
#

Im hoping the Augmented Skilling Items work and make active skilling rewarding but we'll see. Thats my main worry/hope since it can be potentially a great way to execute on the issue if done right.

cobalt vapor
#

I know there's been talk about proteans, mtx, and such about the devaluation of skilling profits, but I don't know if there's been any talk about the seasonal afk activities that give smithing, craft, herb, constr, cooking xp, and such. Like the beach, harvest hollow, Christmas village, and the blooming burrow. These may not seem like a big deal but they give free afk xp that players can afk for hrs while they work or watch tv. This may not be a big issue with gathering skills, but it is a big issue with artisanal skills due to their importance on the skilling/gathering economy. When you have players just afking these events and getting free xp, they're not being active participants in the rs economy buying resources, in effect decreasing demand and lowering prices. And I know the likely reason these skills are offered as afk xp in these events is likely due to their necessity of resources and/or of rs gp to buy such resources. Which is why most people love them as they can save money or at least not worry about money while afking these skills.

I know people may question, "well these don't even give much xp", or "people will realize they can get more xp by making money and buy resources to get faster xp" but I don't think most of the casual player base care too much about doing all this thinking, they just see free easy xp and they take it, notably when they have time to spare but not necessarily enough attention to spare for good money making or researching good money making/xp methods and the like. Or would rather just do something else when they actively play like pvm or clue instead of grinding artisanal skills, notably when they can just afk artisanal xp at such events free and easily.

rose grove
#

delete events, based

cobalt vapor
#

I wouldn't go that far. I think they do have their place. I mean I understand that the jagex team wants to bring the community together for holidays and such and I think they wanted something that was quick to release and an area that they could easily shape for specific and unique activities without having to worry about stuff in the rs overworld.

I guess they could just limit the xp per day for some or all of these activities or make it so some resources are used to get more xp after a cap? Like maybe add coal or logs or something to power the machines or maybe add some actual chocolate or chocolate powder to extend the cap of xp you get.

stoic forge
#

You don't want the xp to be terrible

cobalt vapor
#

Idk

#

It be helpful to know the numbers and such

#

It's hard to say how many ppl afk the events for the event currency and which ones do it just for the xp

#

I assume if xp caps were added, those that only care about the event currency will eventually stop

#

once they get the stuff they want

#

But I assume that ppl mostly do the events for the free afk xp

cobalt vapor
#

There's also the issue of double xp live, the events have been happening 4 times a year for a while now. In my personal opinion that's a bit much. While it of course cuts down on the time to level up, a lot of skills have had their methods and xp rates improved so they don't take as long anymore. This also matters since it's a time when players get tremendous amounts of xp, go for 120s and 200ms. Double the xp also means half of the resources are used. Cause what are the skills that are mostly trained during dxp? herb, prayer, smith, constr, crafting, ie: the most expensive/resource based ones. In my personal opinion it might be better to have them 2 times a year, but extend the length of each event to a whole month. I know friends that dont even use up all their 48hrs in the 2 weeks given.

stoic forge
#

I stopped caring about DXP on my main a long time ago.

pale mural
#

I mean we all know that the TH/Squeal systems introduction of free exp gains through numerous means is the main issue of skilling problems at least for mains.

I do think afk skilling has a place in RS3 even with all the seasonal events. Its honestly nice that you can afk them for a bit and have all types of end game to early game players at the same hub with you.

My worry with seasonal hubs is more about the excess in things for the event. Christmas Event having 8 stations was excessive and it didnt feel as fun as the year before. Easter theyve done a better job with the boat theme and because the egg hunts are unique theyre still quite fun. Maybe theres 1 skill station too many but I like the Easter Event progression a lot.

The other issue is that with all these free ways to get experience, there isnt enough core gameplay that utilizes unique skills to progress. What I mean is things like the Artisan Workshop with its unlocking stuff or archaeology collections that you want to complete for relics otherwise your just gaining too many stats without actual progression for the skill. In the past unlocking unique ways to train acted as a form of barrier but with all the content we have available including things like TH/Challenges it isnt that important to get to new milestones for skilling progression for most people.

minor halo
quiet surge
#

i don't see, or have seen any viable alternatives so far that addresses the competition problem and having active and afk options.

if you have any, feel free to share.

reef lynx
#

I don’t want to be whiny b, but honestly it will be hard to develop engaging skilling content or minigames etc with 4x DBL XP + MTX (proteans, lamps). I am max xp now, but I remember the shift when I stopped skilling if there wasn’t any purpose (herblore purpose remained) and just gathered proteans and waited for dbl xp. It has only gotten worse I guess (didn’t have dbl xp weeks and so much time then).

#

New players can fly through early levels with MTX and not engage with any of the methods…

covert bronze
#

@delicate wave Hai.

I don't really have any spesific ideas, but I just want to put it out there that I don't play RuneScape as a second monitor game, I don't watch netflix as I play, and I avoid all AFK activities if possible. I VERY much dislike the aspect of AFK in RS, BUT it is good to have it as an option for those who enjoy it. When I play RS, I want to PLAY RuneScape, and not have my attention elsewhere. So I am ALL for engaging skilling content for ALL skills, NO exceptions.

safe bramble
#

I think updating existing D&D and creating new D&D would significantly improve gameplay. A lot of D&D are team based and unplayable. Having more D&D with rewards could make skilling more fun… like something like Herby Werby for Herblore but differerent where you would have to figure out the contents of a potion and have it replayable as an interactive herblore mini game that rewarded herbs or experience or unique potions

#

And not limiting it weekly or daily

stray sonnet
#

I think an important element that current active skilling ideas are missing is that it doesn't feel like progression. That there needs to be levels to the specific skilling method like big game hunter and safecracking, higher levels safes and dinosaurs.

sinful sluice
#

Active skilling can good or bad (opinion-based), depending on what it involves.

A lot of active skilling is really just the same activity: lap-running. This is summoning, runecrafting, agility, making propellant.

Then there's bgh, which is (in my opinion) the best form of active skilling in the game. What's the biggest difference between this and the other "active" methods? You can't bot bgh.

If the skilling method can be done by a bot, then imo, it's poorly designed. Bots do boring things. People don't want to play a boring game, even if the xp is higher. Can we add active skilling that introduces more variety to gameplay?

stray sonnet
#

I also like that big game hunter fills a specific fantasy. You hunt small things as a beginner hunter and it makes sense that you hunt something big as an expert hunter and then you are immersed in that experience

stoic forge
stray sonnet
#

I think it's important that the player is immersed in the game sometimes, which is something that being afk can't really capture. Those moments of immersion remind us why we are playing in the first place and motivate us to continue playing, even if we can't play all the time. There are higher effort methods like high end bossing to help with immersion but there is quite often a large gap between that and regular gameplay which is afk skilling, so engaging skilling and "fun" skilling has to be a bridge for that immersive enjoyment.

sacred tapir
#

I think both are equally valuable, as an adult with a busy life of work and kids i currently highly value afk and passive content, but on those once in a blue moon days where i might be off work and the kids are at school id really like to have the engaging content.

pale mural
#

My 110 thieving dragon lair thieving concept sketched out which would be focusing on active skilling. I was thinking the focus would be pathing where you disable various traps, and have npcs stationed and other unique mechanics while a dragon is sleeping and then rob some big chests behind the dragon. It would be laid out sort of like a large grid that the Sanctum sort of uses and you would see various different layouts so that they require quite a bit of very controlled gameplay to get to the loot area behind the dragon. I'll probably do concept art of it soon since I have a vision.

CamScanner_05-02-2025_13.png
stray sonnet
#

Hmm kinda like Indiana Jones, could make sense for thieving

#

Though disabling traps in RS has been a bit awkward with right clicks, so that experience might need smoothing out

#

Though if it's too easy then It'll also miss the mark I feel

#

Depends on the other parts of the run

peak thunder
#

I think the game can be both engaging and afk. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Give the options so that people can play how they want to. However, I feel the afk options should never be better (loot or xp) than the active options otherwise nobody will ever do the active option. I'd love to see more gameplay like big game hunter, but the drops and xp just aren't there so why bother going there unless youre an ironman looking for the mattock? If it was better xp and/or had better loot drops, I feel it would become more populated.

The other problem I see that probably isn't going away anytime soon is proteans. Why go do literally anything in the game when the best xp is standing at a bank? it turns literally every skill into the same thing, click a button and wait 3 minutes, rinse and repeat. If proteans are going to stay in the game, fine whatever. But make/buff active options that give better xp or same xp and loot. It goes back to my previous point, why do anything active when the afk option is better?

stray sonnet
#

I do feel like loot specifically can be hit or miss with skilling updates, so it might need to be significantly better xp to be successful, maybe even xp rebalance around some areas. Not totally sure on this point though

cobalt vapor
#

Carrying on from the idea of Agility stretches, I also had the idea that while active some agility stretches could actually make it so you craft/fletch/make items faster for more XP per hr giving players the option of grinding skills faster at the expense of needing more player attention.

While at the same time, maybe there is a stretch that does the opposite and makes crafting/making stuff more afk at the cost of less XP per hr

#

Ex. Making d hide bodies is 500k XP an hr.

Speed master Artisan's stretch makes it 700k XP an hr, but less afk, as it finishes things faster.

Zen master Artisan's stretch makes it 300k XP an hr but more afk as you make things slower.

This comes at the expense of energy which will drain as the stretch is active, players can drink stamina potions or use relic power to negate it

stoic bear
covert bronze
stoic bear
#

And I definitely think there's a difference between "actively afking" but sitting here waiting for the game to say move (time sprite, rockertunities etc) vs actually being INVOLVED in the training (BGH, safecracking)

stoic forge
icy anchor
#

content like farming, ports(not skilling but acts similar to farming), bgh, ritual disturbances are the references i will bring up when it comes to good skilling content that i and many of my friends enjoy.

farming/ports being short term activity for time gated resources is a good balance of time input vs output. viable way for a secondary output of resources (feels bad if it is the primary and only way to obtain x resource)

bgh brings out a good sense of risk vs reward when it comes to skilling, the chance to fail an encounter this way is unique to this skilling method - almost like dying to a boss fight. the near constant attention needed to avoid being caught.

ritual disturbances was probably my favorite balance of passive vs active gameplay, the benefits for being active were worth it in every way.

  • communion rituals could upkeep mementos through actively doing disturbances
  • xp rates increased heavily when actively paying attention
  • afkable if desired

in the end, the goal felt worth the time invested, and the gameplay was enjoyable enough to continue.

mod sponge's new exalted rune essence mine seems to be going in the right direction with distractions (events) that will boost active gameplay alongside the choice to ignore the events if desiring a more afk experience.

cobalt vapor
#

Someone suggested the possibility of receiving salvages from skilling. Tbh, I don't think it's a bad idea. I don't understand why combat can have access to all these drops that don't even make sense. Like how do monsters drop stone spirits or runes? Ik the jagex team already made it so you get more than the resource you're gathering with wc and mining by getting splintering and deathspore arrow tips. Perhaps you could get leaves, wood shavings or rock fragments when wcing and mining. These could be used to make low level rune pouches and quivers. It's not fair how these items are locked behind high lvl content or millions of gp. For the ones we currently have, just make them better, give them better stats and effects. Maybe these woodshavings and rock fragments could be used to repair the new nooby rune pouch and quiver. They could also be used for other stuff, maybe even the new magic robes and range armor.

#

Maybe you could also occasionally find salvages

hollow herald
#

stone spirits are just shiny flasks and runes look pretty

#

why wouldn't a goblin run around with some shinies

cobalt vapor
#

Yeah, i guess my point is that if you can get random stuff from pvm I don't see why you couldn't from regular skilling too

#

I guess mining does have the geodes

hollow herald
#

geodes, bird nests, caskets

#

only one that doesn't really have one itself, would be divination

#

rather funny that fishing caskets never were updated to be relevant

#

atleast their can give a whopping cosmic talisman

cobalt vapor
#

screw it caskets, geodes, and birds nest can now have salvages

fathom cloud
#

GotE is probably gathering skills best friend. Caskets I think may need a slight rebalancing and maybe give a little something extra for hunting/div/farming. Salvage is the replacement for bars from pvm (mostly) drops, so I think they should stay that way. But maybe there could be something else for the other three gathering skills.

#

Farming could have you occasionally dig up something.

stoic forge
#

Chance to get Salvages when skilling. I feel like needs a lore reason, but sounds rewarding

cobalt vapor
#

I know in osrs ever since that wc update they can get leaves. I really do think stuff like leaves, wood shavings, rock fragments, maybe algae from fishing. New stuff that could be stackable could help gathering skills be more profitable

#

as long as they have valuable use

#

I don't think the low lvl rune pouch and quiver is a bad idea, but I'm sure there's better ideas

fathom cloud
#

Mining is already quite profitable, if not the most profitable skill. Farming can be, but it is slow. Woodcutting isn't super profitable but could be after the fletching update. Hunting can make a profit only if you are wrangling your crocodile, fishing sucks for profit unless I'm forgetting something.

cobalt vapor
#

Idk, i've heard you can make liek 4m an hr tops afking the dung rocks

#

if they sell

#

not sure if it's true or not

#

Might just be me, but imo that's trash

#

I could make 10m an hr easy afking, emphasis on afking something with combat

#

I will say this most of the money from those monsters comes in the form of alchables (usually salvage), herbs, logs, and gems, runes.

#

Things you could get from skilling.... except the salvage

#

Lol, you know the jagex team could remove the amount of salvages they were gonna remove from ed4 and then add that to caskets, birds nests, and geodes ig

opal vapor
#

skilling content for bonanza could be 100 players versus the gorilla demi god

limpid salmon
#

I've long been wishing, and thinking, that every skill should have at least one active training method that give better yields whether in resources or XP or both, than the best AFK one.

I understand that a lot of people like the AFKing aspect of the game and I'm not saying 'kill AFKscape', just that there should always be an active method at the peak.

Fishing has fishing frenzy (unlocked way too late imo) which is very intense and good XP but no resources for example. I'd love it if fishing got updated to have active ways of acquiring resources faster - conceptually similar to the perfect timing clicks for safecracking perhaps?

"Click at the right time to guarantee a catch!" As an example

#

Could reason it as you're feeling the fish nibble, and pulling at the right timing hooks it whereas it otherwise might have been a failed catch if just AFK chanced

signal rune
#

If I could swap "XP" for "bulk catch things like I'm swarm fishing but I can't ever stop clicking and paying attention" I'd do frenzy

#

well sometimes, if I actually needed fish

#

same thing for if Fish Flingers style "periodically try and deduce the best combo of bait/hook/weight to get best yields" was part of a normal resource-gathering fishing activity

limpid salmon
#

Yeah I'm one of those rare players that avoid AFKing almost as much as possible, so having no choice but to pretty much full AFK stuff if I need certain resource feels like a slog to me. I really like that newer releases like the new trees have that buff if you stand in the right spot and chop

stoic bear
#

for every skill

#

considering RS is pretty heavily invested in its afkability

#

if this was any other mmo, thered be almost no afk that would even be worthwhile. youd rather just get off if ur not willing to play actively and get on another time you are

covert bronze
# stoic bear And I definitely think there's a difference between "actively afking" but sittin...

Yes! It should be way more engaging than sprites and rockertunities etc, I 100% agree. Say right now I am Runecrafting necrotic runes, one run is like..10 seconds or so, it is INSANELY click intensive, and that may be a bit too much, but just a little less would be perfect. Say having to click every 3-5 seconds or something? I Think that would be good if one wants active involvement in all skills.

cobalt vapor
#

I don't think there's a problem with adding the sprite system to every gathering skill as a standard. Seems to work quite well for mining and archaeology. It also doesn't mean that there wouldn't or shouldn't be other training methods for these skills

#

And yeah, hard pass on that fishing frenzy nonsense.

rose grove
#

the sprite system is fine but it's not active enough to be genuinely engaging imo

hollow herald
#

allow the drunken dwarf to pelt players with rocks again

chilly apex
#

So after almost 3k messeges here - whats the conclusion about engaging skilling?

rose grove
#

we like it

stray sonnet
#

The frequency seems up to debate but I think most people want it personally

chilly apex
#

Thats fair

cobalt vapor
#

Yes, engaging Skilling gewd

brazen jackal
#

I've really subscribed to the notion that RuneScape is a "second screen cookie clicker" type game?

#

It's so much more than that

#

But it is also a game where if that's the way you want to play, those more passive AFKing methods are also available to you

#

Ideally there's a balanced tradeoff where more engaging content that actually requires you to devote your attention to the game is more rewarding while passive training is more easy going and laid back

#

I think we've seen that balance a number of times over the years, even with more AFK content, such rockertunities while mining

#

We see a similar mechanic with things like safecracking or Fort Forinthry construction, Serenity Pillars in Prifddinas, even things like Seren spirits

clear dock
#

i dont think anything you just listed there is good active gameplay

brazen jackal
#

One of RuneScape's biggest strengths, in my opinion, is that there's always something for everyone

#

Well no, but it shows that there are moments even in AFK content where you're rewarded for paying more attention to the game

#

If you don't want to, that's fine, you're not being punished, but you may be missing out, right?

clear dock
#

i gotcha

stray sonnet
#

I don't think those optional active actions during afk content are meant to be good fun gameplay though

#

Fun skilling really needs to be a separate update with it's own progression that puts active gameplay first

brazen jackal
#

No yeah I agree

cobalt vapor
#

Yeah, i think most would agree that one of the things that makes rs3 great is that for the most part you can play how you wanna play. Whether it's super afk, semi afk, or active, or very active, and that there should be these options for just about every skill in the game. I think we can also agree that for active or ig engaging content most don't want intense clicking repetitive grind fests and if there are methods like this they should give their fair reward in xp and/or gp.

#

It's also why the topic of mini games has been brought up

rose grove
#

I think safecracking is a bit different from the other things there

#

I would say safecracking is lean-forward

#

there isn't an arbitrary cooldown on the effects you interact with, and if you rely on a sound cue while alt-tabbed you'll miss them

hollow herald
#

would be funny if you could steal an entire safe and put it in your poh

stray sonnet
#

Safecracking was definitely designed to be active first and I really like that it has progression

rose grove
#

whereas rockertunities, fort construction, seren spirits, woodcutter's intuition are extremely far from what I'd call active/engaging contnet, they're basically 'afk plus'

#

yeah the actual feedback loop of safecracking feels fucking great

#

it is far far far too strong xp-wise

#

but that stems back to the original issues with dwarf traders

clear dock
#

skilling methods work better when the main method is active but has the option to be afk, vs the main method is afk but has the option to be active

#

which is safes vs stuff like rokertunities

brazen jackal
brazen jackal
brazen jackal