#Panels @ RuneFest: Let's Chat Combat

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

dire basin
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Personally I don't think the masterwork 2h needs a use but if the players want one then I think they may as well lean into the accuracy theme and add accuracy piercing to it or something

somber grove
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Nah it should have a use. They're masterwork weapons, they should have something. Skillers need a method to make gp too. Besides they already said they giving them something

somber grove
dire basin
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I suppose I do wonder if buying boss weapons and turning them into 2h's will be decent cash

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But yeah the accuracy would basically be weapon locked

somber grove
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Idk man, I'm just saying we have 2 already t95, t100 melee weapons that jagex is looking to give effects and specs too, might as well apply what they're planning for amascut 2h to one of them or something

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and we could get something else

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seems like going around in circles

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idk

dire basin
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I do think weapons should interact with the core identity of the style more. Like range works best when the arrows interact with the stacks and multi hits

somber grove
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I think so too. I do like melee burst and even bleed effects. I would personally like to see bleed effects be applied more with 1 handed weapons or dual wield and 2hs be more on the face of burst damage. I think it makes sense. 1 handed and dw weapons are smaller and can be more precise for stabbing and causing bleeds. The mechanics of bleeds also lend themselves better to a 1v1 scenario. For 2hs it makes sense that big sword hit big and I also love the thought of having a massive weapon and just clearing mobs with it

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Melee has of course put this in a funny spot, but it is what it is

dire basin
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Fantasy wise I kinda see it the opposite way. Being berserked seems to be more like swinging wildy, which seems easier with 2 swords and spear seems the best for making enemies bleed

somber grove
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Well here's the thing

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when you lock an effect to 1 specific weapon it cause issues

dire basin
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Right, I've been wanting lower tier weapons with effects for awhile

somber grove
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I meant the bleed and spear thing

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You would ideally want this to be across the board I assume?

dire basin
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I prefer tieing builds to armors and weapons personally

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Like tank buffs defensives, spear buffs bleeds and dual wield buffs berserk ideally

somber grove
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I mean my point is that 2hs where also already leaning more toward that mob clearing style too with the abilities of quake and hurricane

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Should just go full board and make all melee 2hs have two tile range imo

midnight robin
dire basin
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Not been a fan of aoe situations during bosses tbh

somber grove
somber grove
midnight robin
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but 'something else' from an endgame boss necessarily entails powercreep

somber grove
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slayer

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eds

somber grove
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already gonna get a new set of magic robes

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thats liek 5 drops already

midnight robin
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unless it's going to be a cosmetic override or something I struggle to follow

dire basin
somber grove
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I mean there are drops that are just upgrades and arent ground breaking that are important and have their place like g chains and such

somber grove
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clearing mobs

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wouldnt that also be a fantasy?

midnight robin
somber grove
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why would it only apply to bossing?

somber grove
dire basin
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People usually pay attention during bossing more, so they are usually paying attention to that fantasy

somber grove
midnight robin
dire basin
somber grove
midnight robin
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yes, exactly

ripe fractal
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everything is power creep, or useless

midnight robin
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so powercreep is inevitable, so ideally you put something fairly minor like the 2h on it

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and don't extend 2-tile range to all 2hs

somber grove
ripe fractal
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if something isn't power creep because it's a sidegrade, it's creeping something else that it's specializing in

midnight robin
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yeah

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normally it's just an inevitable cost of new content

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but the game is in an incredibly fragile position after updates since c. 2022

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player really needs to not become more powerful for, honestly, a few years

somber grove
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I mean part of the problem was the game having been built over the old combat system and a lot of that old content wasn't brought up to scale with eoc and such

somber grove
dire basin
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I do wish there were more, they didn't really do anything interesting with the scarab enemies

somber grove
midnight robin
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it's just like

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having a diverse range of relevant combat content

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there's a real risk that if this continues, only the most recent 4-5 bosses will be relevant at any given point, we'll just stomp everything else

somber grove
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I get your point, but will having 2 tile range on all melee weps do this?

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Most bosses are 1v1 or 3v1 encounters. One of my points is that you need 1 specific weapon to do great aoe with melee but not with range or magic

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Seems to me this is only punishing melee users

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To keep a specific niche for a type of weapon? I don't see it as worth it

dire basin
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Could also be fixed by improving the base kit of the style instead of making the spec of all 2h weapons include aoe

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I don't really see aoe as a build personally so maybe it would work

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As someone who enjoys the fantasy of the bleed build being tied to 2h

placid jackal
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I think it was a good idea to have the masterwork weapons be a cheaper alternative for those who don't yet have a t95.

Right now, melee + ranged require a lot of investment for their endgame power, leaving a lot of late-midgame players using necro or magic.

But you also don't need to incentivize yet another switch for the best players.

The mw weapons should build their own stacks, ex: "while using this weapon, basic abilities build stacks, at X stacks Pulverize is empowered with increased damage/damage reduction/healing and has reduced adrenaline cost/cooldown"

I think one good option for effects is healing to compete with necro ghost. Since eventually more conjures will be added to allow speccing into more dps by forgoing ghost, the same could be done in reverse for the other styles, allowing a sustain spec with these weapons

(though ideally cooking/food/healing all gets reworked to re-center food as the primary healing source and making soulsplit/ghost marginal. But assuming that rework doesn't happen, the massive sustain necro has compared with the other styles having none heavily disincentivizes using them for non elite players)

dire basin
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I think healing is a bad design choice in general and needs to be reduced not expanded upon. The intention of the healing as players decided is to get players into bossing without the fear of dying but often it ends up encouraging players to ignore boss mechanics, thus limiting dev tools to create boss mechanic.

A better iteration of getting players into bossing without the fear of dying is the Sanctum revive system where there's an obvious penalty for dying, unlike with healing.

shy isle
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i agree with that

i'd say healing needs to be upped in the early game to make it slightly less punishing / you have options to sustain but late game already seems kinda fine?

upper spear
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We could make solid food heal more

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That helps the early game a lot when -10% adren isn't a real penalty but doesn't help endgame as much/at all if you're good

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I guess that's not necessarily sustain

shy isle
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I somewhat think the -10% adren can probs be killed off

upper spear
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I think -10% adren makes some sense for higher level food - at least for rocktails and sharks which come from pvm

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I wouldn't want to go back to the era of fishing being basically useless because you can just self sustain with rocktails

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Could do it for any fish not prevalent on drop tables tho

hollow moat
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Things like soul split and brews have done far more harm to fishing than that would
The best fish would still come from fishing, sailfish

The people who use blubbers don't even use that many of them

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The current situation causes more problems for people that food is supposed to benefit
The top players bring like 5 blubbers in case of emergency, and they generally don't even need them
But players who aren't good enough to sustain with soul split and stuff, they're taking a heavy damage penalty just because they're struggling to stay alive, I don't think that's a great situation

shy isle
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yeah thats my kinda thoughts

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its a bit noob trappy

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that being said in a previous game jam i designed around having the negative just be different for different food types

upper spear
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I think you can have both by just not including sharks and rocktails, designating them as -10% adren food and letting all the other food have no downsides

shy isle
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the concern there being theres too many sharks or rocktails in game?

upper spear
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Yeah

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Maybe I'm wrong and there's relatively few but I know I have a ton banked

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Without fishing a single one of them

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Otherwise the advantage of using a sailfish (only obtainable through high level fishing) of 100 LP is too small over a rocktail (drops in tons and slow to fish on top of that)

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You could also change the numbers and buff everything else/nerf just those two

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I'm not married to any idea in particular I just like the current state of things where I use the fish I fish (🪼) in pvm and just blanket removing 10% adren cost would make the game feel less coherent to me

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It would also cut off basically any future fish from seeing use unless it's significantly stronger than the 2000/2300 LP from shark/rocktail

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And we gotta curb fishcreep

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I recognize that current fish is a noobtrap but there's changes we can make that don't revert us back to rocktailscape

quasi rapids
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We could replace all shark/rocktail drops with fish spirits

midnight robin
upper spear
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If the situation is like magic logs or whatever it might take ages for the ones in the economy already to drain

hollow moat
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Also you probably have a lot of rocktail and shark because you're not actually using them
if they were worth using there wouldn't be a huge buildup
just by myself in a few days of getting achievements i went through over 2k sailfish

upper spear
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It does depend on the boss - I know zamorak and telos drop a lot but a lot of other bosses don't

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Again also depends on the size of the current economy

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And I do know how to ss flick (theoretically) so i don't go through fish super fast regardless

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Aside from when learning a new boss

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Also can someone tell me what happened in 2020 that made rocktails and sharks suddenly spike and go back down

hollow moat
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maybe the daily challenge rework

shy isle
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but it was more unique than X spirits

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in that you actually made the bait out of other stuff

midnight robin
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gate is a reasonable fish drain

shy isle
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e.g. rocktail bait was some smushed up seeds + an ore of somekind iirc

midnight robin
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I get through 6 sharks a kill I think

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if the goal is to drain it out of the economy, a content-oriented approach in cases where the player doesn't have a target but loses hp could work

upper spear
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I do think that, assuming we cut off the supply, sharks and rocktails will level out much faster than eg rune ore

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Just because food is one of the basic necessities

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And rocks are not

quasi rapids
upper spear
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High level play notwithstanding I imagine 100s of 1000s of fishes get eaten per day

quasi rapids
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Anything that provides a boost to resource gathering that can be used on drop tables instead of the resource itself

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I guess the bait seems a bit more intended to be made instead of gotten as a drop…. Idk how that would interact

midnight robin
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have the bait reward fish of that kind at a 1:1 rate in fishing frenzy

shy isle
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so interestingly

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the number of cooked shark in game is actually slowly going down

midnight robin
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becuase a core part of the issue is that baseline fishing is just terrible as a skill

shy isle
upper spear
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I believe that, sharks haven't really been used on drop tables for years and are super cheap

quasi rapids
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Some interesting ideas for possible pieces of the 110 fishing update

midnight robin
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presumably there's plenty of raws too with the drop in relevance of cooking xp and people moving to alternative sources of it

upper spear
shy isle
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rocktail quantity is going up slowly

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i assume theyre used more often in cooking training?

upper spear
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Yeah

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Give more xp

shy isle
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makes sense

quasi rapids
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Chapter 3 of the HH areas launches with the fearsome strigoi slayer monster that drop the most valuable reward of all: bait for bloodtrout

upper spear
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Elder trout
Primal salmon
Eternal sardine

quasi rapids
upper spear
quasi rapids
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Maybe sailfish and sharks have settled at two different tiers of usage (passive combat/actual bossing) and that leaves rocktails with no niche

midnight robin
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2020 rocktails might be 120 herb?

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and vitpots

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can't explain sharks

upper spear
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Oh yeah vitpot

midnight robin
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maybe just as a substitute product

upper spear
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Probably fewer people cooking them/they are by far the cheapest food

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Iconic too

shy isle
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my initial pitch for cooking was to replace auras but i'm not sure if that idea really has legs

upper spear
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Like who wants to eat a sea turtle for 290 gp/2050 lp? No one get away from me
Who wants to eat the RuneScape tm shark tm for 2000 tm lp? Yes please

midnight robin
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lol

shy isle
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in the sense of - it's a hard sell to players to say you have to make this thing instead of just getting it free every day

upper spear
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I really hate auras so I'm a supporter but yeah I can see that

quasi rapids
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Taking anything away feels impossible

shy isle
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forreal

midnight robin
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it's subbing for vis wax to a substantial extent there though

upper spear
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I hate vis wax too 2 birds one stone situation for me

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2 fish 1 stone?

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But again it'd be taking '''free''' money away from dailyscapers

shy isle
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so i'm not neccesarily against it but it kinda goes against my current new player checklist -> explain that to a new player

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so you have this aura slot that you get buffs from each day; but you can get more by making a meal which resets it

midnight robin
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makes sense

shy isle
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actually its not toooo bad

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the simpler is obvs -> with cooking you make meals that give hour long buffs

hollow moat
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I'd be worried about what you need to make them, if it's something easily accessible then it'd probably be better for the game in the long run, and for mains pretty much everything is easily accessible
but as an iron i don't want to be making congealed blood and dinarrow pie for something that used to be free, because that basically means losing it entirely

quasi rapids
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Meals give buffs feels pretty videogame-y. Point at monster hunter or breath of the wild

shy isle
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like 'moss giant moss' shit like that

upper spear
shy isle
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the reason i DO like it

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is suddenly we have a reward space with much less issues

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new quest? give em a meal recipe

upper spear
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I guess you can reflavour auras as having a 'hunger' meter that resets every day and starts at 1 hour, then meals refill varying amounts or something

quasi rapids
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I feel like that was the intention with invention blueprints but never really materialized

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Outside of nomads elegy

shy isle
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yea fair

upper spear
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I was going to wiki link nomads elegy lol

quasi rapids
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I like the idea

shy isle
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i think that was more kinda invention being weirdly themed

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like there was all this kinda age of invention stuff building up

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that went nowhere

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but mans gotta eat ✅

quasi rapids
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And if you dont eat, you die

upper spear
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I guess also locking a reward behind 86 cooking or whatever also feels less bad than locking a post quest reward behind
80 crafting smithing divination and 56 invention

midnight robin
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especially if 86 cooking is the t4/5 aura

quasi rapids
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Will be curious if any of this stuff makes it into 110 cooking

midnight robin
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presumably meals once cooked are tradeable

shy isle
upper spear
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Look I'm biased because I hate auras with a fervent passion but please please please 🥺🥺🥺

shy isle
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maybe not needed tho

midnight robin
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@upper spear @hollow moat out of curiosity do the two of you use torstol incense sticks? they feel like a fairly similar design which are technically efficient but feel exhausting

shy isle
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adds a nicety to the game by adding loads of uniques to different old mobs tho

quasi rapids
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Depends on how much we want to emphasize the economy over account goals

upper spear
quasi rapids
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I think theres a balance here though to not take too much away from fishing. If cooking is now using all this other stuff, what else can fishing plug in to

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Maybe hunter bait more?

upper spear
midnight robin
quasi rapids
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I realize now how off topic we are from combat 😂

shy isle
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ha

quasi rapids
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But really, in the end, everything funnels into combat

shy isle
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incense has the awkwardness of the strength amount

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where i have to use X to get it strong then burn more for duration

hollow moat
oblique yarrow
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Also the ability to slightly simplify the UI since no aura slot or aura management interface

shy isle
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yeah true

oblique yarrow
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Plus you could anchor them much more in the world

hollow moat
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The one that boosts potion duration seems nice, but i'd rather just make the extra potions
it probably messes with everything too since so many boosts are in multiples of 6 minutes

upper spear
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It's the junkie problem, it's logically best for them but emotionally they are dependent on the free daily auras

oblique yarrow
# shy isle yeah true

I did have an idea, that instead of meals it could be a brewing refresh.

You would have existing method/assets that with a few tweaks alreayd work, could have quest/location rewards of more brewing vats (even build one in the fort) and so on.

Brewable beer has lost their reward space as herblore has taken over stat boosting entirely

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I just really like the idea of mining aura being now Dwarven Stout

shy isle
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ah so i had brews as part of the meals in some cases 😅

oblique yarrow
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or runic accuracy being Wizard Mind Bomb

shy isle
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but yeah that'd work

oblique yarrow
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that pubs could be used to introduce players to base level of the auras and higher levels are tradeable things players have to brew themselves

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The 3 zerker auras could easily be fremennik brews that you have to chug an entire keg for

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imagine running into the boss area and just doing this

shy isle
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ha

midnight robin
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brewing could use a makeover either way - despite my display picture I am not the biggest fan of RS beer mechanics

oblique yarrow
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Honestly a suprising amount of beer that can be reused thematically for existing auras

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slayers respite, chefs delight, greenmans ale, bandits brew, rangers aid

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on top of dwarven stout and wizard mind bomb that I already mentioned

eternal bluff
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Yeah I tried looking at making beer for the drunken dwarf achievement recently, I gave it about 10-15 minutes of an attempt, realised I'd be here for 3 weeks, and borrowed a set of drinks from another players.

Brewing just isn't a workable game mechanic as it stands.

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(Not to mention the farming spot competes with grapevines in a massive way atm)

ripe fractal
# shy isle i agree with that i'd say healing needs to be upped in the early game to make i...

it depends on how early "early game" is, but if in the early game the player can't survive with food (early game, you don't REALLY do much with adren that basic food adren loss ruins you, you don't have full proper meta rotations to handle big boss mechanics), they're taking too much damage for the healing an inventory gets them, so they should be taking less damage in the first place, or you run a really good chance of "the new heal STILL isn't enough" or "it carries way past early game" like ghost

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especially because right now you have the weird power spikes and dropoffs from you guys doing the necro early game "fix eoc balancing" patches, where the mobs are better balanced, go up on a better curve, then midway through OOPS back to easy EOC balancing before curving up into late EOC "wait this is way harder"

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Anyways where I'm going with that is that rather than rushing into more heals outright it's probably worth looking at various feel-bads in the existing systems (ignoring you guys revamping classic styles and finding a place to add durability/sustain)

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-The fact base health regen is disabled in combat for no reason (literally said so by combat mods in an old stream) so regen things could be passive low risk healing if there were things synergizing with that
-Early game prayer doing virtually nothing and burning out of points quickly so why bother, maybe you could have some really weak AD style prayer that falls off after a bit in most cases as you get better options
-Fix multi bite foods and such to be better healing per inventory slot so in the above case of "too much damage over time" they can bring more food to a slayer trip or whatever without encroaching too much into high level territory of "now we can bring too much"
-Shields whatthezanik

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In terms of food in general, it'd still make sense to just break the foods up into categories for what their penalties/specialties are.
-Fish are normal healing with a penalty, the staple "roast and go" food
Then with "prepared" foods, make them more appealing
-Single bite things like potatoes are no-penalty normal healing
-Multi bite things like cakes have some penalty but heal more per slot overall
-Cheesecake could get numbers tweaked for viability and higher variants, with HP boost + prayer restore like they have now
-Packed food like primal feasts (or strawberry basket style) are the REAL "just bring TONS of healing with me for a trip but not close to viable for tense dps on demand healing"
-Food that heals less up front then bonus healing over time that doesn't stack if you spam eat (baron/juju/gunkan/osrs hunter meat)
-Food that has % health or missing % health scaling
-Penalties that don't have to all be adren, like giving you a damage debuff so you can't freely DPS eat but you won't snowball into not being able to use defensives

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And then maybe some QOL on how annoying individual prep steps are so they don't have to warrant being gamebreaking just to be better than "instantly ready fish". You could still do buff meals and stuff, but you wouldn't have to shift all of cooking into that because "oops we gave players too much sustain"

dire basin
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I did wonder which part Mod Sponge agreed with. Personally I think long term we should heavily lean into the revive system instead of healing (instead of passive healing especially)

ripe fractal
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revive is a solution for surprise mechanics and burst stuff, not sustained damage like "in the early game slayer tasks suck I'm taking too much damage for how much food I can bring"

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and even then it's more of a crutch/learning tool, or in some cases bandaid for something that's killing people because it's actually unclear

dire basin
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I don't think there's gonna be that much sustained damage

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Besides the revive system stacks with healing, so you want to either focus on one or the other I feel like

ripe fractal
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most of the game is sustained low damage

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normal "whack the goblin" combat, slayer training, a good chunk of damage coming from bosses

dire basin
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I don't think that's likely to damage you too much though and that design choice still bleeds into mechanic design and makes mechanics less likely to meet the design goal

ripe fractal
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sustained damage is core combat, both parties taking turns whittling each other down (if on equal footing). More things get introduced over time like big special attacks and stuff, but besides some super gimmick encounter where it's "you can dodge every attack and there's no AAs" it's always there

dire basin
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I don't see much potential in that personally and so I don't think there's a need for that much healing

ripe fractal
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the game already functions that way, and always has for ~25 years. You have your basic stats and attacks that add up over time. As the years progressed and more complexity was introduced there was more forms of damage and mechanics on top of it, which is for harder encounters, but the base of combat is still "take turns hitting each other", I'm not sure where you're having trouble processing this

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unless you somehow plan on removing all AAs from monsters in the game

dire basin
ripe fractal
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She still does sustained damage on you which you have to account for

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which people may or may not recognize because of how much damage reduction we have on top of our other tools

dire basin
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I just don't think it was necessary to the encounter and it was only there exactly because we have that much sustain and reduction

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I don't think it added anything to the encounter

ripe fractal
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No one even said anything about making us stronger in the late game

dire basin
ripe fractal
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the point was about what early game looks like since it doesn't have all the gamebreaking trash we have now

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late game, healing is too high because it counters everything but instant kills or insane constant damage, it'd be a great thing to shift that into counterable damage reduction (or introduce heal cut more often)

dire basin
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Ignorning slayer, I don't think players are gonna have much trouble with sustain at like Mole, Mimic and Glacor

ripe fractal
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a low level will use food for mole and that's fine. Glacor would certainly be using food once a couple of mechanics are on if it weren't for the ability to turn on "always get full heals spammed"

dire basin
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At Glacor you heal to full from frost cannon

ripe fractal
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this doesn't change the unhealthy design of the high end healing so much nothing matters, or the kinds of things they have to do to just bring that back down in chip damage

ripe fractal
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because if you only have 1 or 2 mechanics on, it's just going to be that so if you don't die in the ~30 seconds you'll never die

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if you turn most/all the mechanics on, you're going to be dealing with a basic stat/gear check waiting for the occasional reso chance

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so that group will need food/better gear, which is fine

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this doesn't change the nature of the early/mid game feeling like wild swings between "wow everything is so weak nothing matters" and "wow I'm getting my ass kicked and all the low level tools feel worthless"

dire basin
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Matching auto attack damage to food/sustain/dr amount just seems kinda awkward. When looking at Souls games they usually have a set amount of healing so that they can design a more precise fail point experience

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Probably easier to design around

ripe fractal
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so you're going to remove AAs from all mobs in the game along with virtually all non-food healing so it can be like those action games where you just die to mistakes and have a limited supply of heals?

dire basin
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Should have less healing so that's easier to design around so that it's easier to make dangerous mechanics

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And then there can be an obvious fail point which you notice when you get revived through the revive system

ripe fractal
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I'll agree to "less healing" in general, but there's still the questions of how you deal with the rest of the game, how stats work and matter, etc

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You could massively change the landscape right now with nerfs to the big names like SS, scrim, ghost, and reso, sure

dire basin
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I think heals definitely bleed into mechanic design in this sense but yeah it's probably gonna be tough

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To design

ripe fractal
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shouldn't have balanced the game around SS and reso (other things came later trying to be additional options, making it worse)

dire basin
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I do think mechanics having a heal feel good moment is good gameplay with reso

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Otherwise auto attacks and food are like non-gameplay gameplay or something

ripe fractal
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reso bait is not better design than food is. If reso is negating any incoming damage over time/healing your mistakes because of some clearly "RESO THIS" attack, it's an infinite source of healing VS using food as your limited resource of how many mistakes you're allowed to make. Even from the angle of "I want skill to matter" it's superior

dire basin
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I haven't really noticed many other solutions for mechanics that you usually reso though

ripe fractal
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then it shouldn't exist for how obscenely overpowered it is, usually beating out ults with actual CDs. In a bubble of normal attacks, it's already strong by negating a hit as a basic ability, but it also heals you for the damage so it's doubly effective, IE if you'd get hit for 2k but heal 2k, you're 4k better off. But since you can save it for the most impactful specs, it's even better, and if you have a boss that does "RESO THIS" attacks more often than you'll be worn down, nothing matters

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an overwhelmingly high return simple action isn't incredible design compared to some more passive specific decisions someone might make in their build

dire basin
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I don't think normal attacks are or should be 2k, I imagine that design problem will kinda solve itself for different reasons

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If there aren't design solutions for mechanics that you reso then I don't see the harm in reso

ripe fractal
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AAs do hit 2k

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and the point was that reso is busted

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and the amount of busted associated with it just gets worse when you make mechanics that are just there to be your periodic full heal with an obvious easy reso

dire basin
hollow moat
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Raksha's autos hit over 2k and you were pretty much expected to soul split flick them, because you'd quickly get worn down
Solak's autos hit 4k
and the enrage bosses, their autos can 1hit you

ripe fractal
#

that's what your levels, gear, and damage reduction tools are for. Not everything has to be "BIG TELEGRAPH SINGLE HIT BURST RESO/CADE THIS" or "DODGE THIS"

dire basin
#

Aren't Solak ones on the base?

#

Raksha is different cuz of the prayer I'd say

hollow moat
#

dunno, i haven't done it in a group

dire basin
#

Reso would be good for the tank role, so eh

ripe fractal
#

If people want chip damage lowered dramatically, then you have to gut the existing limitless big heal sources

dire basin
#

That's a part of the idea

ripe fractal
#

and that includes reso and all the "SKILL" things

#

(it's not that skilled)

dire basin
#

Reso gets a nerf just because the chip damage is lower if it's actually a problem right

ripe fractal
#

if you dramatically lower the amount of damage the player generally takes, then the amount of healing you get from things like reso is even more overkill

dire basin
#

I'm confused. The heal is only as big as the hit you take

ripe fractal
#

If they do a redesign and a boss is no longer doing heavy chip damage automatically, and they gave the boss a "RESO THIS FOR A FULL HEAL" mechanic to offset that, there should no longer be a "RESO THIS FOR A FULL HEAL" mechanic

#

most of the biggest uses for reso reliance right now aren't even AAs anyways, it's some big telegraphed non-missing special attack

dire basin
#

Lets say you take an 8k hit from failing a mechanic, I think it's fine if you recover by interacting with the game by timing your reso for a big heal

#

Like from a different type of mechanic. I assume you can't heal that specific 8k

ripe fractal
#

reso is overpowered in that regard. If you want the game to be about ""skill"" then it overperforms consistently because in that case it's going to cheaply/freely keep erasing your mistakes, along with your already reduced risk of dying to mistakes because your health is going to be higher most of the time

dire basin
#

But then aren't you just interacting with a different mechanic which is the reso instead of the mechanic that you failed

#

You're still interacting with a mechanic so I dunno

ripe fractal
#

would you be okay with a new sword special attack that has no CD, 25% adren cost and just 5x hits 30k every time

#

but it's a special attack so you can't revo so you have to intentionally push the "spec" button

#

presumably no because you're getting too much mileage out of a simple action that negates everything else. That's what reso bait specs are when the game isn't consistently harming you

#

especially when you compare it to most of the other heal options you'd have available. 5 minute CD on 40% HP healing, having to face tank and survive and stand there doing nothing to get a heal out of transfigure, both of those being ults instead of low CD basics?

dire basin
#

I mean I don't think reso is that op. Maybe you take an 8k hit and then get a 4k heal from something else

#

Also I think Necro kinda proved that it's fine to have strong basics

ripe fractal
#

"trivialize everything else because a single thing is overloaded" is bad

#

and you mentioned things like sanctum as "you don't take chip damage really" but any actual run is constant SS flicking

dire basin
#

Sanctum succeeds despite chip damage

dire basin
#

Guess depends on the mechanic

dire basin
#

The only issue I see is if there are engine issues with mechanics that aren't supposed to be reso-able but are reso-able regardless

languid scroll
#

it's a potentially massive heal that has no cost other than GCD and a few runes

#

that's very overpowered just on paper

ripe fractal
#

how is it hard to understand that if there's a yin yang design of "constant damage and heal tools" where one justifies the other, removing one means you no longer need the other?

dire basin
#

Not necessarily massive

ripe fractal
#

A boss has AA chip damage that, if properly geared, adds up to 8000 damage in ~30 seconds or whatever the rotation length is, ending with "RESO THIS" full heal. On top of this it does mechanics you dodge, so if you do the mechanics properly and reso to offset the chip damage, you don't need food. Okay. If you take out the chip damage, now that periodic full heal is facilitating you failing all the mechanics and STILL not needing supplies, unless the mechanics kill you outright

#

or any mechanical mistakes are less dangerous because now you have your whole HP pool available instead of the shrunken pool from the chip damage

#

you no longer need reso bait full heals/op reso if it's not there to offset damage people otherwise find unreasonable

dire basin
#

Sure we have the fun new mechanical tools with Sanctum but that doesn't mean the old stuff isn't just as fun

#

Sanctum has a devo mechanic, can also have a reso mechanic

languid scroll
#

it isnt

dire basin
#

Debatable

ripe fractal
#

attacks that reso can't heal from and shield piercing are better additions than what reso has given us

#

and those exist because of how overloaded defensives are, and reso is one of the worst offenders that the devs repeatedly regretted when discussing design

#

and the only time it finally started dropping off is when we got so much other healing that it was no longer needed (sometimes) and people can opt into divert's bonus adren instead for more dps

dire basin
#

Reso is often more fun than the mechanic that has no other solution and even sometimes more fun even if there is a solution. Nothing against mechanics that disable reso

#

I think it should make sense that getting a heal by doing a mechanic correctly is feel-good design and there should be reso mechanics because of that

ripe fractal
#

reso shouldn't heal, it'd be fine as a blocking ability

dire basin
#

That's disrupt

ripe fractal
#

well it sounds like people aren't serious about "reducing healing" if the solution is "reduce chip damage and stat checks and add more reso bait full heals anyways". Good discussion. gnomechildblush

dire basin
#

One is interesting gameplay, one isn't. I think that's easy to understand. I never mentioned a full heal

dire basin
placid jackal
# shy isle i agree with that i'd say healing needs to be upped in the early game to make i...

I was thinking of for example a player swapping builds from t90 necro with ghost to a melee build camping scourge + t85 oh.

Similar investment level, way less sustain- harder to justify using a different style

If there isn't a noticeable trend in data that more people are using necro than other styles (except at the very very top end of proficiency levels) then i suppose there isn't really a problem. I just assume that's the case

upper spear
#

You sacrifice your pocket slot but vampyrism scrimshaw (which is tradeable) is pretty good with scourge

#

Without the scrimshaw obviously melee has no sustain

#

Also you need to incorporate bleeds into your rotation to fully benefit

#

Because it caps at 4k hits

#

(3k for superior)

placid jackal
#

It's good, i'm in favor of keeping ports items relevant

I also think there's too much stuff scattered around the game that, for a newbie, feels totally random and probably requires outside info to find, compared with the unified signposted track for necro (that ghost healing is on)

upper spear
#

Yeah

#

It's also 300k per hour

ripe fractal
#

yeah, right now magic and necro are the tankiest styles by far (which one pulls out ahead depends on the damage source), then melee has vamp and ranged has not much of anything inherent (sara bow eof/onyx bolts?) and that just feels wrong

#

it feels almost entirely in reverse of what it should be, in fact

#

Melee > ranged > magic/necro in terms of base stats and options available to someone doing basic stuff, then that gets shuffled depending on the encounter and how certain parts of the kits work/don't work well for that situation.

ripe fractal
#

But things should lean more into preventing damage rather than healing reliably and in large amounts, because then timing matters more for active effects, and there's more control on when it does/doesn't work. Post-nerf AD is still overtuned, and darkness is kind of silly, but there's a lot of things they don't work on or ways around them compared to ghost healing or soulsplit

somber grove
#

Btw, can we please add a real benefit to having different spells in MH and OH, like maybe a 50% chance reduction to apply the effect of each hand, but obv you'd be applying 2 spell effects at once. Or just remove off-hand spellcasting, currently it serves no real purpose and it's just annoying whenever you want switch spells.

dire basin
#

Just had a thought about Amascut. Wanted to mention that using dive for far away semi-diagonal mechanics is a bit awkward since dive can't go that far, it just just makes dive go straight to the wrong direction instead.

#

Wouldn't make any big changes to the group mechanics that are currently in development but just a thought.

weary sierra
#

Nerf them to t90 instead 🙏

#

Then we have more future rewards

#

Same with t92 weps, nerf them to t90

hollow slate
#

t85?

weary sierra
#

that would work

#

using magic as my example

image.png
#

zuriel 78 -> 75
sup zuriel 88 -> 85
tect 90 -> 85
etect 92 -> 90

#

apply to melee and ranged too

hollow slate
#

only issue is there's going to be a number of players unhappy about the nerf

#

I guaranteed, it'll be a lot of people

weary sierra
#

then remove set effects from the t85 versions of sirenic, tect which makes the t90 version worth getting

#

the difference in damage output would be so tiny

#

0.273% damage decrease changing t92 armour to t90