#Player Value Survey

1300 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

worn pike
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i know we have embargo periods but its kinda pointless when the set embargo date can easily be changed by jagex simply for a MTX event (this happened with necro)

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plus once the embargo ends the leaderboard itself is kinda pointless unless that person cemented themselves in 200m

full citrus
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almost everyone i've spoken to that left rs3 for osrs was because of lamps / pay-to-win. it doesn't help that jagex own both so they don't feel the impact of that (monetarily) / they still win, lol

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but im glad they're considering changing MTX, its a step in the right direction

surreal epoch
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I'm sure <1% cares about hiscore and competition in regards to levels and xp.

candid kernel
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This is no competition anymore hasn’t been in decades since everyone is at 200 million exp with all skills.

candid kernel
worn pike
delicate kestrel
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Yeah in regares to DXP I think 4 per year is too much

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I'd rather have like 2 DXPs and 2 combat weeks, so you go DXP > Combat Week > DXP > Combat Week

full citrus
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"Lamps have nothing to do with why people left" I'll meet you in the middle and say its a mix of all sorts, but pay-to-win was a big factor

candid kernel
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Most people who left were max exp players who have nothing else to do and the MTX does nothing for them

surreal epoch
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You convert the lamps to oddments and buy goodies with that.

echo willow
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The experience rates are too high, with or without th

worn pike
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It’s understandable for grinds like 200m. But TH/MTX had no place involving itself in matters such as xp

signal cipher
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getting xp out of TH would be nice, but i feel also unrealistic given its a significant reason why people buy keys at all
the change i've been trying to push personally is replacing all lamps with stars, because buying 900 keys and then having your next 20mil xp worth of gameplay be twice as fast (which is what bonus xp does), is a lot better for integrity than skipping that gameplay altogether (which is what direct xp does)

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talking about xp integrity at this point is something most people laugh at, but i think its always worth it to make an effort
i don't think rates going down is important as long as what you're getting is earned and not bought, and i'd certainly not want us to have osrs' slow, boring xp rates

full citrus
worn pike
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Potentially addressing two aspects of the games pitfalls. Kill TH and maybe incentivize minigame activity/traffic

worn pike
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Maybe even consider another gold sink if someone were to pursue this training method

minor zephyr
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when do we get to see the results of the previous survey?

echo willow
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New skills should max out at 30k exp/hour not 4m+. Could give a grace period for capes if needed

worn pike
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Yeah no

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And not all skills have this 4m+/hr training option

echo willow
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And remove the decimal from exp so the cap can be 2147m instead of 214.7m

vestal lagoon
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281m xp

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756m for 140

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2b for 150

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the slowest skill in the game, fishing, would take 7k hours even at current rates

echo willow
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I think it’s stored as a 32 bit with one decimal place

vestal lagoon
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at a 30k cap, 200m would take as long as 2b would now

echo willow
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And then arbitrarily capped at 200m instead of 214.7….

vestal lagoon
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switching how it's stored is trivial

echo willow
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It took a very nontrivial amount of time for max cash

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Prestige might work

vestal lagoon
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they said they're more likely to cap it at 13m/39m/104m

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but at this rate they won't raise the cap until 130 is out

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at which point the cap will be 130

echo willow
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I don’t oppose it as long as it’s cosmetic only

vestal lagoon
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130 would be content but no need to worry about it for awhile

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should be able to 200m all your OSRS ironman in that time

zenith bane
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all the star/lamp handouts, lack of updates to maintain them to current gameplay standards and EoC were bigs parts of what caused their decline

worn pike
zenith bane
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the thing about MTX xp gain is that it also hurts skills where their products were usually sold for skilling supplies

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since you no longer need to gather or buy what you need to train

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in terms of offsetting TH MTX, people are likely still going to buy the stuff they want directly

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being at the mercy of RNG for how many keys it takes to get it is just a scummy way to get money out of people

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so the MTX TH cosmetics can be converted to non TH MTX

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where you just straight pay a fixed amount for it without RNG

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and the earnable aspect can be from rewarding long term play like with loyalty points

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maybe f2p gets a smaller amount from remaining active so they're still somewhat earnable in f2p

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that should translate the value of TH content in both p2p and f2p

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from stuff like earned keys and oddments

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so basically take solomon's marketplace, oddments stores and combine them all together

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you can earn some amount of currency like you could with oddments and loyalty points for the stuff that's earnable through play and then there's the stuff that's only through bought currency

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and also members get a rotation of free claimable items as a members benefit

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that would streamline it all and cut out TH

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the TH promo outfits would move there too

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that just leaves figuring out how to deal with the stuff that comes from cosmetic tokens that can be sold

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with everything in the same shop and with fewer currencies, it can be better sorted to find things more easily

worn pike
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Pretty much exactly what i suggested

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10/10

zenith bane
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like really, oddments and loyalty points can be the same currency that you get through dailies, persistent membership, monthly premium, etc

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move all the bond values to runecoins for better pricing

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you could still maybe keep the ability to convert bonds to runecoins but otherwise they're for membership

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so basically bonds are the tradeable currency that sinks gold, while runecoins are the main MTX currency for everything else

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artisan gears and related products can be for invention if kept

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also buying bonds with real money should be the same as the equivalent amount of membership

azure magnet
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The new player survey is hot garbage. There is now lower bound for where i think quality will be so low i wouldnt consider playing a game. Dota2 is free and funded through cosmetic only MTX. Its fine, this is so clearly made to get a specific response. I cant go back, but there is one where you have to select three reasons why you don't like mtx, but they are poorly written and so clearly made to be argued against in a exec meeting. Like this just seems like a fluff survey that ultimately is made only to be ignored. I hope im wrong, but i am not contributing to this as it stands.

worn pike
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they can pump out new cosmetics every other week and people would pay for it up front (pending quality)

surreal epoch
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The first MTX thing that should be removed: Pay2Claim.

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vestal lagoon
surreal epoch
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Why? You can't tell me rolling lootboxes and then paywalling your reward (after spending a key) behind a subscription is proper to do.

vestal lagoon
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although f2p can buy keys they probably aren't

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so most of them would be free

surreal epoch
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They could easily replace it with a giant's cash bag, an unbankable P2P item that simply gives 50M upon use. At least one can claim that reward and then decide what to do later on.
It would achieve the same results.

stark marten
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I could support it if you outright remove the prize from f2p
less risk of botting

vestal lagoon
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an alternate solution would be to make it so you can't roll that at all

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oh true not a bad idea

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why unbankable though?

surreal epoch
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Cash bags in general are unbankable I believe.

vestal lagoon
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fair enough

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no real reason for it though, other than extra gp storage

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unbankable would be as good as the current system however though

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average player would be prompted to sub or delete it

signal cipher
vestal lagoon
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actually the real reason they're unbankable is 100% because the number of coins scales to your total level

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so you can't bank it until you're a higher level

surreal epoch
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IMO, through lootbox rolls is not a good location.

vestal lagoon
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money tree cash bags can be banked, so it would be fine to make these bankable

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imo delete TH from F2P entirely

surreal epoch
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One can already tell whether the rolled item is P2P and thus decide what to do with it. Cash rewards are shown as F2P, yet you only learn that you can claim it as P2P after rolling.

vestal lagoon
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probably scares too many people from subbing

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can't say that the data supports that though

signal cipher
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probably wouldn't be doing it if it didn't

surreal epoch
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Even the disclaimer only states that some items cannot be used by F2P. But use != claim.

vestal lagoon
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ye, and coins aren't a members object so it doesn't say that

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need a simplified interface that doesn't tell me the category or members stuff

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category thing might be useful for odds but I reaaally don't care 99% of the time

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would probably make more money if playing TH didn't feel like database administration

surreal epoch
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Whatever else would happen with TH I don't really mind on that point. I'm not the target audience and they've mostly stepped on boosts / cosmetics only.

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But this cash reward is just a meh thing they're doing.

vestal lagoon
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oh wait

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the unbankable or cash bag thing still wouldn't work, due to alts

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so best to remove the prize for f2p entirely

surreal epoch
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Then you have different lootbox tables between F2P and P2P, and a TH key would have different values between the 2.

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I'm not sure if that will be some other can of worms.

vestal lagoon
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not inherently problematic

surreal epoch
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I mean, it's true alts can just stack such items and at some point get a 1 day bundle and open them all.

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Same thing happened with past xmas with the purple+ presents.

vestal lagoon
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more about bots making accounts until they get it once

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but wait, yeah, day 1 still exists on mobile, so it's still profitable to claim that way

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unless you have some esoteric never-p2p hi-score to preserve, but TH throws a wrench in that anyway

surreal epoch
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Probably also a psychological thing. People's brain probably go more brrr when they see raw GP rather than some dusty cash bag.

worn pike
# vestal lagoon not inherently problematic

The inherent problem is TH in general. Splitting loot tables for members and f2p isn’t new. Problem is what kind of loot is being made available and the mechanics to obtain the loot

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Only solution is the dissolution of TH. Any skirting around that will not solve any of the distrust and frustration that MTX has caused

vestal lagoon
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that seems extremely unrelated to the specific issue, but support

open verge
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How times change

vestal lagoon
open verge
vestal lagoon
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indeed

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and not a huge loss if they don't

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(for either party)

open verge
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Depends on the perspective

zenith bane
zenith bane
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holding rewards hostage through sudden paywalls is a scummy way to profit from players

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it fosters resentment

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I think it's nonsense to raise membership prices over the removal of TH when TH content is likely to just move to the marketplace and it's actively detracting value from the game experience

open verge
zenith bane
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I'm not talking about other causes of price increases but specifically the idea that removing TH would require increasing membership costs

open verge
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As for TH, do you want TH removed? If so, how does jagex compensate for the loss of money

zenith bane
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don't put words in my mouth

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the discussion of other causes of price increase both for and against isn't relevant

open verge
zenith bane
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this is about price increases as a direct consequence of removing TH

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they literally just raised prices

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and the bond price scaling relative to membership subscriptions is out of balance

open verge
calm osprey
open verge
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Not that it means anything, if we look at the time period, we looking at a price increase either in 2026 or 2025 from previous years gaps

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surreal epoch
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Forgot the recent price increase was about bonds, not membership.

open verge
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dnt think bonds are a problem, they are the best of mtx

zenith bane
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bonds themselves aren't but there are problems to fix with how they're handled

open verge
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If you want to resolve bonds, stop giving everyone gp like it's candy

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or tax more

zenith bane
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but also the broad strokes questions of the survey aren't very helpful to distinguish between how players feel about specific MTX

open verge
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I felt like the survey was trying to be compromising, rather than outright 'no'

zenith bane
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one of the problems with bonds is that it should cost about as much to buy x membership time's worth in bonds than a subscription of that same time

open verge
sterile bobcat
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The problem with that is that it would a) mess with the in-game economy, b) end up with people playing for free

open verge
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And if you are not, then your only solution to accumulating a bond within a day is flipping/merching on ge

sterile bobcat
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The key, core reason that bonds work is that the only* way for them to be introduced into the game is somebody buying them

open verge
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Someone else is paying for your membership and the person buying the bond with $$$ is essentially buying gp

sterile bobcat
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Such that every member, every runecoin, etc. is by definition income for the company

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You can’t allow direct conversion of coins to e.g. membership subscriptions as long as coins can be generated within the game (drops, alches, etc.)

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And likewise, people buying bonds to sell for coins are by definition not actually adding coins into the economy

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Having non-game on and off ramps for coins would be very bad

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(TH, Umbral chests, etc. are probably not ideal either, but I guess they deal with it…)

echo willow
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I wonder if it is better or worse for the game that bond have a 10% tax to make it tradable again

open verge
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Once the average person can't accumulate enough gp from afk skilling within 14 days, they'll be kicked out of the market, so less people will be buying bonds and because of that there be less demand

echo willow
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The upper limit for that would be around 5b per bond

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Unless they buy premier

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Then the limit goes up

sterile bobcat
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It’s not like each offer that pops up there is a specific partner that Jagex works with/has an arrangement with

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They’re set up with a platform that supplies them

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Yes, I’m not saying that they don’t have any responsibility, if the platform is serving up bad content they should hold them accountable

open verge
echo willow
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I used 15/hour

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Which activity are you looking at?

open verge
echo willow
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17?

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Oh wait

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I am looking at your math the wrong way

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Yeah that’s 2.37b/14 days

strong bane
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The fact they never even checked a single one is concerning

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Whether or not they approve every one, did they not even check that the service they were using was essentially fraud?

zenith bane
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pvm is very demanding to be good at beyond just time investment

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in ways that some people will just never be able to manage

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and the inability to pvm optimally shouldn't be a disqualifier for making decent profit for how much you invest in the game

open verge
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Would not solve the problem

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If the average individual can make more gp, then the price of bonds will only increase

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It's only when you mak everyone gain less gp in that you can get bonds prices lower

sterile bobcat
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Bgh is awesome

zenith bane
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that's still pretty similar to bossing

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I don't want good skilling content to just be bossing for skillers

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the stealth mechanics

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why

sterile bobcat
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In general a search bar in the skill guides would be amazing

zenith bane
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did players not complain enough about using stealth mechanics in RS?

sterile bobcat
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It’s kinda amusing to me that the gravestone system still exists

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…but then becomes useless once you unlock Invention

zenith bane
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less amusing is that we still have quests with unsafe deaths

sterile bobcat
humble condor
sterile bobcat
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Because you wouldn’t have to buy it

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So if you let cash be redeemed for membership, without differentiating between coins generated by buying them and coins generated by e.g. alching salvage drops, you end up with the possibility of membership without any money being paid to Jagex

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And besides that, you’d end up with uncontrollable inflation/deflation depending on whether more people are buying coins or spending them on membership etc.

zenith bane
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paying to put more cash in the game is a terrible idea

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the reason bonds work is that you're trading already existing gp, not creating it

sterile bobcat
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Precisely

zenith bane
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plus we're trying to remove pay to win, not make it worse

full citrus
glass river
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Just my honest opinion: Please do not increase membership prices. It's already expensive as is.

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I now conside prices above $8/month to be expensive.

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You know, why not revamp Solomon's General Store? It's been seriously lacking in updates and pretty outdated considering the interface is web-based and clunky. If we can remove TH, we can put the cosmetics there.

strong bane
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i just want to voice again that I feel it concerning that theyd consider raising membership prices over removal at all. It feels they think their only choice is milking current players instead of trying to attract new ones to get them to subscribe.

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cosmetic shops dont attract new players - content updates do.

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I also cant remember the last time ive ever seen an ad for rs3 anywhere.

zenith bane
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heavy MTX, particularly chance based MTX like TH isn't exactly conductive to making players feel good about recommending the game to people

strong bane
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yepp

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people are getting sick of even cosmetic MTX, especially for a game that already charges a monthly subscription fee.

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sure it might help pad the pockets of the developers of a game, but at the end of the day it takes away from the content of the game as dev focus is shifted towards developing MTX only content rather than spending time adding actual content to the game itself

zenith bane
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people at the top of companies are never willing to be less rich for the sake of delivering a better product

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that's the kind of people that deal with publicly traded companies

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the shareholders

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and RS still has a lot of jankiness to clean up that probably doesn't appeal to new players either

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which is why their core priority should probably be updating skills and rebalancing stuff

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fixing the game economy

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also something that's been bugging me is how a lot of the non yak track cosmetics don't have much to do with the game

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will we be seeing necromancers decked out in the TH necromancy cosmetics? the zodiac knights, sunfury/lunafury etc?

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should we expect the phoenix from the D&D to get updated into anything resembling the new phoenix pets?

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yak track made a point of gifting players with cosmetics that were being used in updates

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updated models for monsters you can fight, new creatures and characters added to the game, outfits worn by characters

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and does anyone else get annoyed when they push MTX as part of events?

worn pike
strong bane
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i dont think theres anyone whos excited about MTX in general, let alone being pushed at them. I think at best they just come to terms with it.

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but i doubt theres anyone out there who goes "yay, im very excited to have to spend more real money for a game im already spending upwards of $12.50 a month for that used to be $5"

strong bane
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unfortunately its been over a decade and jagex still hasnt figured this out.

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they have a long established history of doubling down on situations which have severely hurt their only games keeping them afloat. If runescape dies, jagex dies.

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and, to look at the even more unfortunate side of things, some countries economies would take a massive hit if this were to happen too.

zenith bane
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late stage capitalism

strong bane
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So in a sense, they have a moral obligation to keep the game alive and healthy beyond that of making their own money.

zenith bane
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there are people who would literally sacrifice the future for short term profits, even when shown how making less money in the moment can get them more long term

strong bane
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I want to clarify im very glad that these games exist, they did wonders in both my childhood and current life. But im not doing myself or jagex any favors by pretending they have players best interest in mind.

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And by best interest im really referring to jagex's best interest as well - the players willingness to continue their game subscription to keep the game alive and jagex profiting.

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In the case of games as a service, the players best interest is also the company's best interest.

worn pike
sterile bobcat
strong bane
# sterile bobcat …huh?

It’s no secret that there are countries who have many people supporting their families off rwt, due to the fact that they can make more money doing that than they can with other jobs in their area.

sterile bobcat
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Seems like a stretch to me to say that there’s any kind of “moral obligation” to people who are abusing the game and breaking explicit rules

strong bane
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hardly. depends where your morals stand, really.

wicked arrow
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not a conversation that is really suitable for this server. a company has no moral obligation to fill in the gap where a government should be doing more

strong bane
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it was nothing more than a side opinion anyway that someone asked for clarification on - but point taken about not discussing it

wicked arrow
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i appreciate it!

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hopefully everyone in here has filled out the survey!

full citrus
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back when i played league-of-legends, I was happy to pay for cosmetics / skins, I didn't feel like i was wasting my money (even though I was, lol). the game gave me so much entertainment over the years that i was happy to support them, there was no buyer remorse / sour taste. i don't feel that way about runescape3, not since my efforts and time spent has been undercut by those willing/able to pay irl cash to get ahead / pay-to-win. it's just scummy, no integrity (when it comes to valuing peoples time), but maybe this 'player value survey' will change things? i highly doubt it (i'm a 19y vet, i know what they're like, but please prove me wrong). they'll not risk going into the red / take a financial hit, if pay-to-win is significant to their business, it'll stay. OSRS is their safety net for when people get fed up of rs3, so they win either way. just my 2 gp.

zenith bane
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support charities etc trying to fix those international issues but letting it go on isn't a good thing either

strong bane
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id move on from the convo before one of us gets warned/kicked lol.

full citrus
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yeah, they know how bad it is, and I don't think they need us to remind them. they'll have a dedicated team doing the best they can. "it is what it is".

on the topic of mtx, i'd like them to consider selling "new" discontinued cosmetics. i dont mean rereleasing old rares or anything like that, i mean adding new items that they declare discontinued (after a month or so in the store). for the typical 'fomo' counter-argument, we cant have everything, we shouldn't expect to have access to everything we want whenever its convenient for us. play the game / keep up to date with the game at the time of their release or risk missing out. responsible, right? instead of catering to the 1% that didn't log in for 2 weeks or didn't have access to the internet for 2 weeks to miss the release of an exclusive item. (this is mostly BS anyway, they just want more opportunities to sell the same items / recycle content; fomo is just a convenient excuse). its harder to pitch "we're going to design new cosmetics for limit runs" as the profit projections longterm would not seem as high. but that's assuming runescape even has the legs, it has to sort out its reputation first.

granite inlet
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Filled out the survey when it came out. To me it felt like they’re considering reducing MTX and raising membership prices to compensate if enough players answered that way (yes I have more than just an Ironman)

strong bane
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i think the whole mtx issue impacts ironmen almost just as much. sure we dont have to directly deal with TH and the likes, but it still has a big impact on the content we receive on our end

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when all the dev time goes to the latest MTX promo, that doesnt leave much dev time for other content\

covert agate
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especially at the start of SoF, I never got high money drops, but remember my nephew spinning 200m and had to subscribe 😛

Agree, well not sure if bonds were a thing then (need to look up), but 7m bonds or 5-7 euro's for membership and let's say 193m (or 200m) is a nice deal! 😄

covert agate
# zenith bane with everything in the same shop and with fewer currencies, it can be better sor...

yeah! Also like that loyalty points is like a side-reward from being membership + the streak if you don't become f2p for 1s. Like if the loyalty points would become oddments or so (where I personally would keep Loyalty Points, due it sound and fits better imo), the concept of it could stay but directly moved to the shop into oddments.

Also, (sure you know), it was mentioned like +-3y? ago that they would slowly move solomon to the marketplace.. same with like object pets, which is also not finished yet. So the idea was there, so that's nice!

End to add, I posted it some days ago, remove the physical currency and just move it to one shop (talking about holiday currency, TH, ...) >

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cough that's RS4 aka RS Survival aka the secret project in Unreal Engine 5 😂

I agree, sure many many think about this. Would be the first game, I'm sure of that would be like 1st and/or 3rd person fitting in a big world (Gielinor), area's and cities could be larger, .. + a bunch of skills!

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I found a Solak clip, some dude put Solak or somehow in to another game idk, and it looks perfectly what I see if I think about runescape open-world, if that's the right term. I also thought about such thing for many years, keeps me hyped up and loving osrs & rs3 even more. 🙂

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I also posted this like 2-3 days ago, only in general channel I believe. The wording for the answers are not that perfect. I'm looking at the ones for the first image, about Solomon Store, you can't buy coins, notepaper, xp nor bxp from it.. weird. The same for TH, you can't buy Bank Booster bundles from TH.

Schermafbeelding_2024-07-27_143215.png Schermafbeelding_2024-07-27_143051.png
rancid sedge
strong bane
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when hiring a company can only have so many heads added, and theyre often competing with other teams for who gets that headcount.

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any headcount within one dev team is headcount not provided to another team.

zenith bane
# full citrus yeah, they know how bad it is, and I don't think they need us to remind them. th...

no. releasing content to be discontinued is bad in a game that spans the time RS has. What about when players didn't have an account at the time, possibly because they weren't old enough to have one? What about when everyone who had it ages out of playing? It's one thing to do that for stuff like anniversaries but it was really annoying for stuff like holiday events where not having membership at the time could lock you out of claiming stuff you did the event for

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and for tradeable rares, I think they should be allowed to reintroduce some to maintain numbers as they get lost from account deletion etc

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plus presenting something like it'll never return or making it unclear if/when it will causes problems when people later find out it's not as exclusive as they thought

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FOMO is predatory and scummy

zenith bane
zenith bane
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anyone have thoughts about pay to win in relation to premier? getting non cosmetic boosts for what's basically members+

signal cipher
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there's really no separate premier plan anymore, i think they did away with that last year

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premier is just what you get when you pay for a year upfront

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i think that's the standard for most paying members

covert agate
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For how long will we still be able to fill in the survey?

surreal marsh
covert agate
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Oh sorry

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Just found that in that post

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Bit struggling to find the eight channel

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Like, I believe there was a channel to discuss rs ahead? Can’t find it in Right Click Examine 😮

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Well. Like it was mentioned in Mod Azanna’s post

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Or do we just discuss is there?