#Add the odds for ALL MTX related randomness

81 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

pure ruin
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Double Dragon Chests were up, but I couldn't find the odds of each multiplier. Got boosts every key for a while, but then got a regular chest and literally didn't even know it was possible until it happened. I have 0 way to tell if it's an equal chance of any different multiplier, or what. Completely changes things if they're all equally likely, or if some are more/less likely than others.

This type of thing is a recurring issue across various promos too. Seems like every single promo needs to get looked at. We need complete information of all odds of ALL randomized factors in every single promo.

List of all the issues I can remember off the top of my head and have personally observed recently:

  • Christmas Wrapping Paper doesn't disclose odds of each present colour, or the rewards from each present colour.
  • Double Dragon Chests doesn't disclose the odds of each multiplier.
  • Rainbow Trail doesn't disclose the odds of: each multiplier, the odds of getting a "bonus" square, or the odds of each bonus effect.
  • Celebration Lamps is very unclear in general. Either the items on the bottom are what you can get from that individual key (in which case it does NOT list the correct probabilities in the probabilities page) OR they're . . . not and you can actually get anything that is listed on the probabilities page and the visuals are just incorrect.
  • Loot Duels did not include probabilities for ANY of the non-normal chests.

The last two quite literally violate Google Play's policy as well.

I'm going to try to compile issues in this post, rather than a post for each issue, but I am running out of space already because there's so many. Guess I'll link future comments with more info as needed.

Note that some may have probabilities on the wiki but these are not confirmed or provided by Jagex, and that is not okay. We need clear odds from the get-go confirmed by Jagex in game.

blissful yarrow
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or they just remove addiction inducing money funded gambling aspects from the game, it's not a casino afterall

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full transparency would include showing you the actual irl money value of each key.

pure ruin
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I 100% would prefer they just get rid of all this silly, mental-health-diminishing unregulated gambling and replace it with non-random MTX personally.

blissful yarrow
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that being said, they should legally be obliged to reveal these numbers

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so i don't think this qualifies as a suggestion

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rather it's law

pure ruin
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Not sure about the law (probably though), but it 100% violates Google Play Policy at least, particularly the last two. There's 0 wiggle room.

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To be frank the more I look in to it, the more absolutely appalled I am. I returned to the game not too long ago and only really started paying attention to the promo stuff when FSW comp period ended and there's already so many issues (even more than the ones listed above). Something's gotta change asap.

blissful yarrow
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only way to get that done would be to notify the british politicians and get them to do a federal investigation

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anything less won't do much

pure ruin
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Nah we can do more than just that

blissful yarrow
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maybe have the entire playerbase show up in cambridge with pink skirts

pure ruin
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We should all just be talking about it, keep it front and center in the community. Everyone should know about it. I went months without ANYONE saying anything about it to me.

blissful yarrow
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they don't allow cannons there

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but it could work

pure ruin
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If we're all talking about it, show them we actually care, I think they may change their mind.

blissful yarrow
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anyone that cares have been complaining since squeel of fortune got announced

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most of them swapped to osrs

pure ruin
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Nah

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People are dead silent on the topic and keep saying stuff like that when I talk about it lol

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Like the vibe seems to be "Well it's a problem but we already know and it's not gonna change"

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But it's 100% going to change if we just stop saying it won't change and actually do stuff about it.

blissful yarrow
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anyone with motivation to care about it left long ago by this point

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all that's left is remnants of the vocal minority's minority

pure ruin
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Nah.

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And if people don't care, then we can make them care.

blissful yarrow
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10+ years of complaints didn't even get them to quality assurance the scams they do run

pure ruin
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It's about time the community started caring again.

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10+ years of dwindling efforts and apathy.

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They have changed MTX related stuff in the past too

blissful yarrow
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cash cow can only bleed so long, before it's dead

pure ruin
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We already literally made them change things lmao

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There's no way, none at all, that we can't change things.

blissful yarrow
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we can it's just a long slow grind

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which is what rs players like

pure ruin
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That's literally what runescape is so sounds good

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We all need to get together and grind out the new skill: Telling Jagex to Fix MTX.

blissful yarrow
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the people at the company that could fix it, aren't people that receive, listen or read about this

pure ruin
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Yes they are.

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Jagex, last I heard, is told to make money then people at Jagex decide how to make the money. Simple as that.

blissful yarrow
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process is a bit more complex than that

pure ruin
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Omitting key information might make them more money. Having people breathing down their neck and completely shifting all community sentiment against them makes them less money.

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We need to simply generate the situation that makes omitting that information less profitable than providing it.

blissful yarrow
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they already passed that checkpoint 10 years ago

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the only way to get people breathing down their neck, by this point is to get the government involved

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or have the game outright banned in other eu countries based on treasure hunter exisiting

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which, prob. won't take too much longer

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considering how diablo immortal, took a big spotlight on the mtx cesspool

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unfortunately, such interventions tend to ... not be appreciated in the short term

pure ruin
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Add the odds for ALL MTX related randomness

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We, as a community, can make a change. I understand the mentality of "We need to get the government involved", and sure if you write to your representative(s) that's great and all, but Jagex should be capable of taking community feedback and fixing things without that.

I also feel that government pressure may simply lead them to another, similarly exploitative but technically legal, path. We need actual pressure to fix the CORE of the issue. Not simply more rules to skirt around. Although, even just telling us odds still leaves us with a system that is fundamentally based on gambling and uncertainty.

Transitioning away from random chance entirely for monetization is the only ethical path forward. Anything short of that will always be contrary to their position as a mental health advocate, or a company that respects their players.

pure ruin
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Oh boy here we go again. The Grotto Promo doesn't tell us odds for the multipliers or the festive rewards.

Also how does the probabilities tab even work exactly when they show 2 presents? If something is a 0.1% chance of showing up, does that mean EACH present had a 0.1% chance of being that thing or that it's a 0.1% chance per key even when 2 are shown on screen?

grizzled abyss
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I don't think there's much we can do unless laws and app hosts take actions. Right now, Jagex is sliding by with the bare minimum to comply.

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I've tried reporting TH to the Dutch Kansspelautoriteit given they did took action against things like Fifa, but nothing happened from that yet here in Holland.

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Though that doesn't talk about obfuscation of odds. It's just TH and lootboxes in general being a problem in our country.

pure ruin
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They aren't doing the bare minimum to comply with the Google Play Policy. They're definitely outright violating it, or have in the very recent past. I've tried reporting it and I hope others make complaints as well.

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"7. Apps and games offering mechanisms to receive randomized virtual items from a purchase including, but not limited to, “loot boxes” must clearly disclose the odds of receiving those items in advance of, and in close and timely proximity to, that purchase."

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Loot Duels didn't have odds for rewards within chests like smouldering chests. That's 100% violating the above outright.

pure ruin
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8 days left in the promo and it seems like people are finding more and more evidence that the odds aren't even close to correct for this promo. :/ Trying reporting it in game but especially with less staff in I figure they won't fix it before the promo ends even.

Either way, I'm hoping they at least can recognize what happened, apologize, compensate players to show they aren't trying to just rip people off, and have a more robust system in the future that thoroughly and completely shows all odds.

We really can't let this slide as a community or it will just get worse. They need to be 100% on the ball about something this serious. People spend actual money on this stuff.

santas_grotto_report.png
grizzled abyss
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As if that is ever going to happen.

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It's a lootbox system, ofc they will try to cut corners wherever possible. And what will you, as a player, do against it? Unless you have some authority to perform an investigation, it's merely your words against theirs.

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The only thing you can do is report them through external parties such as app hosting platforms (Google, Apple, etc.) or through your national institution regarding gambling laws (e.g. Dutch Kansspelautoriteit for Dutchmen).

Unless one has substantial evidence, reporting the problem to Jagex themselves about skewed odds will not do anything.

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I'm still surprised they are allowed to hostage your rewards if you're F2P. Why should one need to pay extra to claim cash rewards like 50M if you rolled it fair and square? It might even be rolled with purchased key. Something tells me this is not legal either.

viral jetty
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See, this is going to hurt some feelings; but, people will never accept it no matter how many times it's said;

Treasure hunter is not, nor ever has been, gambling.

On a pure legal standpoint. It is a one-way transaction. There is no official payout system, like what happened to other games with their own internal marketplace to get a balance to use as a replacement for real life money outside the game.

Which was what the whole dutch thing was about as well.

But, people being so Tin_Foil_Hat have skewed it to much to justify external methods (illegal RWT for example); to make any and all game companies the bad guy and justify getting their way...

They forget Jagex only added the odds to TH as a preemptive measure incase they decide down the line to further clarify for non-payout systems and to appease the players enough to knock the nonsense off.

There was an instance where the dutch side and one US court case of a physical theft of items ignored the fact there was no official payout because RWT was possible, but, in a lot of their guidelines thenselves it was to be official payouts through the company.

If you were to use TH, and then convert the item to a "Jagex Balance" to then be used to buy something else, or another game, that would be different; (cashout that star for 0.50$ balance);

But it's purely isolated to that game; even swapping being a thing is still isolated to those games; but people try to justify that as a reason too.

The more people stretch to make it seem like any and all companies are doing something illegal, the more they kinda stray from the purposes they're going for.

Players want MTX gone, it doesn't matter what method it's implemented; its been that way since it was first added. We all get and understand why, but stretching what is a "law" to have things fined or shut down makes you think.

These places are not oblivious when things break their laws and restrictions, and often times will talk to the companies. It's different than just some average guy down the block.

If they were breaking the laws and restrictions, especially with how often i see people claiming to report it, and nothing has happened yet? Not even a notice of forced changes? I think that's a good sign they are within the rules and regulations despite what the players want to believe.

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jade palm
viral tundra
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too many tin foil hatters on this game

pure ruin
pure ruin
# viral jetty See, this is going to hurt some feelings; but, people will never accept it no ma...

Trying to tell people that a paid game of chance isn't gambling is completely whacky. It's literally by definition gambling. If it isn't legally recognized by the law as gambling in one form or another is a failure of the law to keep up with the times, not proof that it isn't gambling. And it doesn't have to be 1:1 to existing gambling as we have thought of it in the past to be gambling. The fact that you can't get money back doesn't mean it isn't gambling. It means it's gambling where you can't get your money back, you are still betting on a game of chance with your money though, and that's gambling.

Jagex has a CLEAR obligation to the playerbase to provide odds, literally in the google play policy? https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9858738?hl=en#:~:text=Apps and games offering mechanisms,timely proximity to%2C that purchase. Here's the link! And even if they didn't, they have a clear ethical obligation. Why are you even defending it? You think they shouldn't tell people who pay them money what their odds are or something? Unless they're literally paying you to say this, you have 0 reason to take a stance that is anything but, "Jagex should provide clear and full odds to everyone." Because literally no one but the people raking in profit gain anything from not telling everyone what's up.

And if they're breaking laws or not I'm not sure, but I 100% know they're breaking google play policy. It's clear as day! And as for why it keeps happening even though people report it, probably because of people like you defending it tbh lmao. The community doesn't do much about this, I'm shocked to see how few people even care and how many people like you have defended it repeatedly. Big companies like google obviously need a lot of attention and heat on things, and the community has a ton of people trying to convince everyone to just shut up and accept it for some reason, it's weird.

pure ruin
# viral tundra too many tin foil hatters on this game

We have clear evidence of tons of things, decent reason to be suspicious of various things that are less certain, and even beyond the idea that maybe those odds are wrong they're still incomplete and unclear.
Other people who have disagreed have also at least took the time to actually say something? If all you have is an insult that's not doing anything for the conversation.

viral jetty
# pure ruin Trying to tell people that a paid game of chance isn't gambling is completely wh...

And this is exactly what i mean by the players want anything to be gambling.

You said it yourself, its not gambling by law, which means it's not gambling. Not that its a failure with times.

A paid game of chance is not gambling, otherwise paying membership and killing a members-only boss, at an attempt to get a members-only item is gambling. Which is just idiotic.

Thus why the monetary or physical prize, like a IRL equivalent balance or irl reward, is what determines it.

And why only certain games got in trouble, because they did just that.

I don't have to be paid, and i'm not, to see the exact response you just did is the exact reason why everyone crying it's gambling showcases how idiotic and uneducated the argument is.

I'm not defending Jagex blindly, there are things that can be done better, but calling everything with a chance gambling because a 1-way transaction is very stupid in all honesty and old.

They do disclose base odds by pure preemptive obligation incase these rules get more strict, but, in google's side they don't truely have to do it by definition of gambling, because it's not.

Thus my other comment that people have tried to report it, but, they investigate these things very often, we as players just never see it, and they have legal teams to make sure stuff is within compliance.

All these reddit-grade lawyers who take a half-assed out of context segment of a compliance sheet, and try to make that a company-shutdown level law and regulation by using an irrelevant comparison gets old, fast. Thus my original comment.

But if you truly think you can make the big change, you can do the big reports yourself and take it to the courts, because frankly speaking I don't think anyone is thinking this through on a true legality level and just spewing nonsense for the sake of it. Lol

grizzled abyss
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Fifa got tackled in Holland despite no way to get the value irl. The fact it is tradable on the platform justifies enough it has some value.

Steam was tackled and lootboxes cannot be opened in Holland despite the value being stuck on the Steam platform.

Roblox outright denies your game from being available in Holland if it offers tradable rewards from lootboxes without proper API regulations (which, when enabled, denies Dutchmen from using said lootboxes). You can’t take the item, and thus its value, outside the game. Even on the Roblox platform itself.

How are Runescape’s tradable TH rares any different?

One also doesn’t have to look at gambling specific. They are lootboxes, and certain platforms / countries have specific rules about that rather than only gambling in general.

grizzled abyss
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And Belgium is even stricter, with several games or monetization being removed. Shame it’s not something easily enforceable on many smaller mobile games.

pure ruin
# viral jetty And this is exactly what i mean by the players want anything to be gambling. Yo...

"Spend money for a random shot at a thing." tracks 1:1 with "take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Which is quite literally a definition of gambling. The other definition listed when you look it up is "play games of chance for money; bet." which is arguably saying "play games of chance TO GAIN money; bet" but can also be read as "play games of chance FOR money; bet".

It is gambling. Denying that is, at best just trying to win on a semantic argument, and still ignores the obvious issue that it fundamentally leans in to the same things that gambling does. Even if it isn't "gambling" it's bad for much of the same reasons what you would find in the things you might qualify as "gambling".

I'm also seeing you're quite literally unpaid which is actually much, much worse as you apparently are an unpaid volunteer . . . For a multi-million dollar company, owned by a multi-billion dollar company, that easily, easily could afford to pay you but chooses not to. I also see no reason for you to claim that the argument of those who clearly see the for-profit and paid randomized loot system as gambling is "uneducated" and "idiotic". It's not. You just don't see it the same way, which frankly I would say is just being obtuse more than anything else. Certainly you should at least be able to understand how someone reaches this conclusion through simple logic and fair assessments.

Your point on the Google thing, what are you even saying? Let me quote it in full for you:

Apps and games offering mechanisms to receive randomized virtual items from a purchase including, but not limited to, “loot boxes” must clearly disclose the odds of receiving those items in advance of, and in close and timely proximity to, that purchase.

Gambling? Even if you think it's not gambling, it's definitely a mechanism to receive randomized virtual items from a purchase! And as it says, Jagex MUST clearly disclose the odds of receiving those items.

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You may not be defending them blindly, but you're definitely acting as an agent of a player-negative, frankly quite evil, system that I doubt even the people implementing it feel fantastic about.

And you keep saying "law, law, law". I don't even recall saying much of anything about law specifically beyond, "I'm not sure about the law" and trying to roll it back in to talking about Google Play Policy, which they're 100% in violation of. This isn't some "Reddit-grade lawyer" talk, this is just some super basic and easily readable in-context talk of how they're violating a policy pretty clearly and obviously! I'm not talking about a company-shutdown, I'm not talking about court I'm talking about Jagex bringing theirselves up to the standard they agreed to hold theirselves to.

And obviously I bring up these topics in the hopes that other people might also talk about it? And report it too? Or that Jagex just fixes it without someone having to twist their arm in the first place? You literally seem furious at me for wanting things to be better, furious that people's arguments are so "idiotic" and "uneducated" for disagreeing with you about this. I have absolutely no idea why.

sour tendon
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Please present your Bachelor's degree in Law.

On a serious note, can we please not resort to name calling of other members on the server? You can have constructive conversations, and criticism of others, without resorting to name calling.

karmic plaza
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We will say that if the channel gets out of hand we will close it.

pure ruin
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I feel like we could get ahead of things by just not having the guy who's calling things "idiotic" and "uneducated" participate.

pure ruin
pure ruin
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Looks like, through the entire promotion, there was no statement on the issue of the misrepresentation of odds from Santa's Grotto.
I guess people are still mostly on Holiday, but it seems wrong all the same.

pure ruin
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Update has come and passed, no mention of the promo lying to players