Let us further upgrade Elder Rune +5 to a new, augmentable, T90 tank armour set.

[timid breach]

This armour set as outlined is intended to be "easy to use, hard to master". While the basic potential of it requires no input, to truly make it a great set of armour will require a specific plan.

This is a pretty basic version of the idea, and I'm sure there's lots of room for improving on the numbers and everything. For example, the basic damage reduction may be too low and 30 stacks may be too high for empowering some abilities. A system by which you have to activate some piece of the armour on a keybind to prompt the activation of an empowered ability, and each one has a different cost in stacks, could be better and help enable more fine-tuned strategy and balancing as well.

It is also important to note that by virtue of the 5 piece requirement (not the full 6), you can use a kalphite defender with the empowered defensive abilities.

I also understand some might worry this crowds out Tetsu, and to that I'd say I'd love to see ports gear upgrades as well.

Another concern is that this may make it more difficult to make "Greater" defensive abilities in the future and that this is simply gobbling up far too much design space. That's a completely fair criticism. It may be a better idea if we cut out some of the less important abilities and simplify instead.

Thoughts? Both on this idea specifically, and the idea of further upgrades to Elder Rune in some other form?

[south turret]

Defensive abilities are already too strong, so it’s hard to see this slotting into the game in a healthy way.

[timid breach]

It requires wearing tank armour, which is quite a nerf to the overall strength of it. Defensive abilities are strong, sure, but losing so much DPS is a big tradeoff.

[south turret]

You really don’t lose that much. BIS power armour is maybe 6-7% dps increase over tank armour

[radiant scaffold]

Most of these changes look like they'd make 99 smithing give better armor than raids. As someone with 99 smithing and exactly 0 raids kc, this feels like a terrible change.

[timid breach]

6-7% is quite a lot. Also remember you're using a defender or shield, not an off-hand. It also restricts your capacity to switch due to that

Defensives are also strong but using them willynilly to build stacks is generally a tradeoff as well, making it a bit more limited in that sense too.

[south turret]

It’s not when you consider the benefits going the other way. Think animate dead. But yeah I’m not sure how I feel about it coming from smithing in this way either. TMW was a similar vein and that rework was not very successful. Hard to say

[timid breach]

I was about to say, think animate dead lol.

[south turret]

But yeah I agree it’s more limited than AD is for example

[timid breach]

We already have a powerful defensive armour set in cryptbloom + AD, increasing our defensive capacity in a much more limited and surgical way feels less damaging than what cryptbloom has done to the game.

[south turret]

Ironically, cryptbloom on its own didn’t do all that much. It’s animate dead that is the biggest problem

[timid breach]

Agreed

What would have to change to get this to a healthier spot while retaining the idea of empowering defensives?

[south turret]

Base defensives would have to be severely nerfed, probably

[timid breach]

I really don't think most of these are offering nearly that much power lol

Rather I don't think it should warp the game around itself

Sounds even less healthy to nerf all defensives just to make this work, rather than toning it down in some way

[south turret]

The problem is the game is already warped when it comes to offensive power versus defensive mitigation

The player is far too strong already. So even if this armour didn’t exist then I think defensives still need to be reworked

[timid breach]

If the concern is purely defensive power we could even lean in to the idea of it as a vengeful set and cut any defensive prowess it offers

[south turret]

I think they’ve talked about that in some of the past videos

I.e. having some way of actually distinguishing tank and power armour in an interesting way

[timid breach]

I do think tank as more of a, "Take your punishment and deal it back to you" kind of thing still retains the idea of tank armour while still making it meaningfully different from power armour.

Stuff like freedom in this concept match that quite well, it's about being reactive and interactive instead of power armour which is very "beat you to death very quickly while ignoring you"

[south turret]

It’s like that because of this

The reason we can do that is because of how skewed player power is

like you can literally just soulsplit + fsoa blood barrage and be invincible in 95% of encounters

throw a devotion on if things ever get spooky, res to full HP on any big hit

[timid breach]

True, at the top end compared to a lot of things we have way too much power.

Release Telos vs. modern Telos is another example of how far gone things are

[south turret]

Power creep is fine, it’s normal in an MMO. The problem is how you adjust the other side. E.g. if player power creeps what do you do to keep things balanced and interesting going the other way

[timid breach]

Feels very difficult to balance for the player's continuously rising power and complex methods of getting more advantages when a large portion of the community won't be able to utilize it well. Despite modern Telos being such a pushover compared to release, many still struggle with it just as much.

[south turret]

At this point I think you balance it by nerfing what the player has at their disposal that allows the balance of power to skew so heavily. Defensives, soulsplit, etc. Then at that point, you have even more room to explore things like what you’re suggesting and you can do so with less likelihood of it being OP

[timid breach]

I suppose so, but simultaneously I think we've already seen the envelope pushed by cryptbloom+AD. Would this really be more powerful than that has been?

'Cause I also just really doubt we're going to see widescale nerfs

[south turret]

your guess is as good as mine

[timid breach]

True, it's a pretty complicated set situation

Depends highly on random metrics we rarely consider like how often you're getting hit and whatnot

[south turret]

I meant that with respect to the nerf statement. RE: the animate dead question - no i don’t think it would be, but that’s not good justification to implement it because AD is a good example of what’s wrong. Should use it as justification to start adjusting the other way rather than add to the situation IMO

I know Ramen is one of the people who’s been pretty vocal about defensives being overpowered so we’ll see what he has up his sleeve for the future

[timid breach]

That's good to hear, I would enjoy seeing some defensive nerfs while wearing power armour or something.

[south turret]

I’d rather see it globally

[timid breach]

Vestments were A+ design in that they actually focused on offense at the sacrifice of defense

[south turret]

and then let tank fill the void going the other direction

rather than leave it where it is and continue to contribute to the problem

I’d argue Vestments don’t offer enough the other way either

[timid breach]

True I'm thinking:
Power armour: 30% efficacy
Tank armour: 60% efficacy
Tank armour set effects: make up for another 30% efficacy

Something like that

[south turret]

Many bosses hardly splash anyway, the defensive stats make little difference in practice

[timid breach]

Rather than just Power armour 30%, tank armour 100%

I do think vestments could be more extreme for sure

I think a lot of people get really negative about the idea of power armour nerfs from what I've seen so I imagine it was relatively held-back from what it could have been.

[south turret]

i like vestments for their effects and whatnot. But as a “glass cannon” armour they really are not that glass-y, aha

hard to say

[timid breach]

I'd love to see power armour straight up make you take more damage as a % on all hits. More direct, more genuinely dangerous since it also increases the maximum hit of bosses too.

[south turret]

Yeah, idk. Either way the balance of power in this game is in a very interesting position and IMO if we had nerfs in favour of a more vulnerable player that would give us a lot more interesting variety in reward space and could let them make tank genuinely interesting

As it stands now I don’t think that is possible, really

[timid breach]

Understandable. Feels sad to think tank armour is just stalled out because of balance issues, and yet we also now have a really good tank set and AD existing lol.

More than anything I want really interactive defensive abilities that build more on situational awareness and such

[south turret]

Well, to flip that on its head - if those adjustments were made, we can probably safely assume those would also be adjusted to fall in line and be good

[timid breach]

And reward players for thinking far ahead about the nature of encounters and whatnot

True, hopefully we see that happen sooner rather than later

[south turret]

Indeed

[neon arrow]

I'll be perfectly honest, the next logical step up from Elder Rune +5 already exists. It's called Masterwork. The set effect for TMW could do with some looking to make it more worthwhile, but for raw stats if you want melee tank armor (or hell, even just strong armor besides Vestments) there is zero reason to look anywhere else.

Honestly, let the self-damage thing proc retaliation effects like armor spikes and it'll be fine. Maybe have it give an in-built boost to protect prayers and Soulsplit?