The sniper changes are actually pushing people to snipe from further away.

[plain shard]

No point in trying to do anything interesting or skillful except extreme range sniping anymore and the only people you're likely to hit at said ranges are other snipers because all the other classes are gonna be moving to fast too reliably land shots. The travel time is too great. You just have to hope said player continues to move at the same speed in the same direction.

[mellow harness]

I do really like the sniping changes, but I think how it scales with range (both the trail and glint) could use quite a bit of work

I'm hearing lots of weirdly inconsistent opinions on this too, and I don't snipe when I do play so I can't tell much difference

[plain shard]

Which opinions out of interest? I've only seen two. That of snipers saying it makes sniping entirely pointless and that of people that don't snipe saying that sniping is op and needed a nerf (even though they themselves typically can't hit sniper shots).

[mellow harness]

I've seen people say the glint is worse, glint is better, trail is bad, trail is good

combinations of the above

[spiral pilot]

Dont add noise to the chatter. Links to the post or its hearsay, mate.

[mellow harness]

fair

This is the big thread I've seen things in it from https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1182089669073186876

[plain shard]

I haven't seen anyone that snipes saying glint is worse. Glint is bad but I appreciate without it snipers can feel a little too dominant. I preferred it when mid scopes didn't have the glint but hey it was still manageable if you were at a sufficiently off angle now the second you fire one shot every player with a modicum of awareness knows exactly wherre you are.

[mellow harness]

Spitballing ideas here - What if you can only see the trail within a certain promity of yourself?

so that you can't see the entire trail leading straight to snipers, but only a short part of it where it whizzes by you?

[plain shard]

so youy know you're being sniped at but not necessarily where from? That would be acceptable. Gives a little more knowledge to the palyer while still allowing a skilled player to remain hidden.

[mellow harness]

Yeah, like you only see it near yourself

[spiral pilot]

#1182089669073186876 message hates the changes, #1182089669073186876 message agrees with me, in fact, nearly ALL opinions agree with me that changes suck, should be rolled back, and in general are excessive.

[mellow harness]

so it doesnt have a nice breadcrumb trail leading straight to them

just a short vector where the bullet passes by

[spiral pilot]

stop making it more complicated. KISS. Keep it simple and stupid.

[plain shard]

a rough direction and the knowledge that it's not just random ar shots from a fight that's miles away.

[spiral pilot]

we dont need bullet trail. Or if stays, glint needs to go. Halo has a massive bullet trail 0 glint.

Battlefield has glint and no trail for non one body shot snipers. Easy decision what fits this game better

[plain shard]

I agree a bullet trail is overkill but if there has to be one that would be a much less destructive way of doing it.

[spiral pilot]

im advocating full removal. It is completely unnecessary. This is not Halo.

[mellow harness]

I think the big issue there is since glints are a bit tuned down, they might pull ahead a bit without.

And shit, that may be fine, idk what the average kill count if them really is atm

[plain shard]

as am I. My suggestion if the devs want to nerf snipers is to lower the base damage but up the headshot multiplier.

[mellow harness]

Before/after glint and trails* that is

[idle bay]

personally i prefer glint as it is now be cause it requires the player to be looking at you or somewhat aware of where you are but bullet trail legit just gives a gps line to where you or where to everyone in the vicinity which i find very dumb and mostly since it last so long

[plain shard]

still 1 shot to the head but less dmg to the torso

[mellow harness]

Fan of this as well. As long as it applies bleed

I feel you need to be put out of commission or you run into other issues

[spiral pilot]

Scope glint, and all the spotting tools are plenty enough. Skill issue is a real thing, and people need to realize this isnt Halo, this is not CoD. it is its own thing, and they need to let it grow as is. Stop importing lame mechanics that do not fit the setting at all.

[plain shard]

yeah absolutely.

[spiral pilot]

Bleed in general is excessive, should be heavily toned down to grenades or shrapnel weapons. Having everythind make you bleed is dumb.

[idle bay]

100%

[mellow harness]

Feature bloat is real. I just dunno how I feel about glint as I haven't played much with the recent patch yet

[plain shard]

honestly I never found snipers oppressive before scope glint was a thing back in beta. I moved erratically and could typically work out where I'd been shot from pretty much immediately.

[spiral pilot]

Yeah, just STOP importing lame mechanics. No one complains of the 1 shot body shot in Counter Strike

[idle bay]

i played with new glint, i have always rocked 4x scopes, tbh not the much of an issue just requires you to be aware where you are aiming and for how long if you dont want to be spotted easily

[spiral pilot]

Grenades and skill make up for it.

and most importantly, NO ONE EVER USES SMOKES. if you dont want to be sniped, SMOKE UP. easy fix.

[plain shard]

played with new glint too. Not a fan but it didn't ruin snipers like trails do.

[spiral pilot]

the player base is lazy, and they just want to shoot everything and any one at all ranges with all weapons.

Hence the no shotguns rule in here, and I agree with the devs.

[plain shard]

legit the easiest counter that noone uses because it doesn't actively kill people.

[mellow harness]

fairly certain i've seen a bit more smoke usage in the 2-3 matches I've played since patch, hoping it isnt a fluke

[spiral pilot]

They have tools. They are just lazy and stupidly vocal.

[idle bay]

100%, i snipe mostly sub 200m its my playstyle and im pretty good at sniping but now if i fire into a team with more than 2 people all guns turn to me and just get melted its lame and unfun when youre trying to snipe aggressively which requires skill

trails straight booty cheeks

[plain shard]

they could also just use their eyes and if they do get shot out the game literally points you camera in the direction you died from. find another route that doesn't present you to that angle.

[idle bay]

here are my suggestions to changes 1. make it so like an attachment like a silencer or something gets rid of the trail, or 2. greatly shorten the duration of trail to like a fraction of a second 0.1~0.25 secs requiring players to at least have some awareness to be able to use the line to track you down, or 3. remove it altogether tbh lately it seems like some dev has something against specifically bolt snipers when dmrs will eventually replace them and cause the "same issue"

[humble marsh]

Actually battlefield has a trail

[plain shard]

the good ones don't.

[humble marsh]

You're shit talking 4?

[plain shard]

no need for all the complication honestly just yeet the mechanic

[spiral pilot]

My point is, the "But there is no counterplay to use my AR/SMG/lmg", it is totally Not true. Cover that get s built ultra fast, plenty of environment, Smoke in several forms, and decent map design. It is a BS argument.

[idle bay]

thats #3 on my list lol

[plain shard]

4 doesn't have trails. you can see the bullet in the air it's a different thing. you can already see bullets in the air in battlebit.

[humble marsh]

4 has smoke trails bozo

Check again

[spiral pilot]

It lasts literally 0.5 seconds, not 3.

[idle bay]

tbh its just players who walk out in the open like this is minecraft or something and get there head popped off by sniper and then go and complain when they could just use the environment to their advantage

[humble marsh]

Ok so nerf the trail

But keep it, it's fine

[plain shard]

its so short you can't track with it unless you're already looking that direction in which case the bullet woud be more visible anyway.

[humble marsh]

Smooth backtrackin

[mellow harness]

lets not start insulting please I can smell it from here

[idle bay]

nerf it the point its non existent or just remove it legit kills skilled use of the class and it just a big ol flag waving kill me over here

[plain shard]

It's so irrelevant I had to go look up gameplay because I had never noticed it in my 500+ hours of gameplauy

[spiral pilot]

It is a bad argument to keep a bad mechanic. Full removal is the way, make bullets more visible if you like, but this aint Halo mate. And BF4 is hardly a good Battlefield. There are easily 4 games above it.

[mellow harness]

Out of curiousity, does anyone have a clip of the long range scope glint as is now? Is it identical to the one on med scopes?

[humble marsh]

Go ahead, those others probably also had it too if you wanna do this

List the other 4 games

[plain shard]

it's a bigger glint but not by much.

[mellow harness]

Mm. That's my big issue and one of the only reasons i'm biased towards an effect showing where the bullet came from for targets

[humble marsh]

But hey, you're right. This game isn't halo or battlefield, so it can do what it wants, including nerfing snipers /shrug

[mellow harness]

that is, not the entire map

I feel a minor trail isn't too over the top for that, and given glints got toned down, I don't think it would throw balance off

[spiral pilot]

2,3, Bad Company, both, 1942

[spiral pilot]

there are your 4 games.

4 isnt terrible, but isnt the best by far.

[spiral pilot]

True that, and i have never engaged to this level before with and early access game. Thought this could be the time I left my 2 cents.

[humble marsh]

From a guy who played bad company to death and played every class, sniping was stupid as fuck on that game

No bullet drop, no lead, and on hardcore it was an actual point and click adventure

Sure it was fun but I'm not gonna pretend it wasn't borderline unfair

Fine, very low bullet drop and lead

[idle bay]

in this game we do have bullet drop, bullet velocity, and a ONLY one shot head shot to 4 out of 5 classes

[plain shard]

agreed. battlebit has drop and lead time though.

[humble marsh]

M200 invalidates all of that pre ranger barrel nerf

It's like

Slightly harder sans headshots

[spiral pilot]

Gameplay mechanics that you dont like do not make a game bad, mate. Your opinion does not matter. Fact it, it is a much more liked game in general. It was okay for its time as well.

[humble marsh]

And rangefinder gets to invalidate drop if you do feel like shooting 800 meters

[spiral pilot]

I wont kick you on this, but it was a way better game.

[plain shard]

sniping is not easy if you don't have thousands of hours of fps experience. I play with 4 mates that play far too many games and they always tell me they don't know how I snipe because they can't hit anything.

[humble marsh]

Fact is, they nerfed sniping in subsequent games and for that you'd call them worse

[idle bay]

it has small mag, one of the slower ads times for a sniper, and one of the heaviest in its class to balance out its high velocity

[spiral pilot]

If anything, I agree the rangefinder should probably get dropped

we should use binos to gauge range, and then we should Zero and shoot

[plain shard]

I never play with a rangefinder. It throws my aim off and lowers ads times. never adjust my 0 eaither. can still hit 1500m shots consistently though

[idle bay]

i use range finder to zero in quickly for shots further than 200m to not guestimate how high i have to aim and have my shot miss

[spiral pilot]

They simply changed it with according mechanics. No one is saying BF 5 was better. But BF 1 has very good mechanics. Sure, sweetspot was hard to use, but VERY rewarding. It involved knowing each gun to know where to be to get those kills.

[humble marsh]

Hell id be down for sweet spots in exchange for lower velocity and no zeroing

[spiral pilot]

And battlefield had to literally EXPERIMENT on how to fix the sniper problem

they were the first to have to deal with it. Battlebit has the benefit of foresight.

of YEARS of foresight

[spiral pilot]

THey would have to gives is then usable mil-dotted scopes

no zero should have usable scopes

[humble marsh]

Not impossible if the RPG can do it

[spiral pilot]

agreed, not impossible at all

[humble marsh]

Point is until snipers get reworked to the point where only people who know what they're doing can pick them up and do well, I just disagree with them

They should be powerful, but the cost/benefit is skewed

[plain shard]

I just use the tri4x. No marks for range, no range finder no zeroing just muscle memory. If people need to 0 and adjust against me they'll be dead before they ever get a shot off.

[spiral pilot]

I zero a lot and i dont have this issue. Dont demean mechanics that you dont need, that is not the point

[humble marsh]

Trx4, bipod, long suppressor m200 with a lightweight build and a glock

[spiral pilot]

Everything given to players is a tool to be considered, factored into skill, and easy of use, and applied.

[humble marsh]

That's my build and it is actually a point and click adventure that isn't fun for the other team

[spiral pilot]

You are oversimplfying, and actively lying. Sure it might not be fun for the other team for a few minutes, but they will adjust and stop giving you positional advantage. Happens every game mate. It is very rare to stand on the same sniper spot for the entire conquest game and be able to score super high. Videos that do that well have very mid range active sniping

[plain shard]

the grip that gives faster ads and reload, whichever barrel gives max velocity (can't remember what attachments are called) + m9 for faster movement. perfection

[humble marsh]

I got like, 30 kills in one life on salhan standing in the same spot and doming a crowd of medics trying to revive eachother

It is actually not that hard

They don't adjust, they're busy bein pinned down by snipers

[spiral pilot]

It is simply bullshit mate. You are lying. You might get some 10, 15 in a totally idiot team, and in 3 minutes they are no longer there. Cause you shoothing them

[humble marsh]

Haha ok man

[spiral pilot]

Smoke up and move. Tools..

[humble marsh]

Believe what you want

[spiral pilot]

If 15 people cant realize their cause of death though... yeah, skill issue. Point and click aint real, mate.

[plain shard]

that's a skill issue. Sure sometimes you get x kills per life but just as frequently you'll not be given the chance. You can't determine the rule by an exemption

[humble marsh]

You're free to keep hosting your self pity party but this reminds me of the time a vehicle main argued I was bullshitting because I did well in an APC. Sniping hasn't been hard until the trails were added

That's my genuine opinion

[plain shard]

I've had 54 kills and gone unkilled. I've also died 18 times in a row without getting a kill.

[spiral pilot]

And as such you defended it. But again, if you are the vocal part who move this games balance discussion, you are doing it a disservice.

there is no hard data to back you up, no statistics, NOTHING. Im not saying changes are uneeded, im saying maybe as players, we should have some numbers to look at before destroying gameplay options

[blissful gazelle]

Both of these were sniping games in which I sat in the same spot for pretty much the whole game. I can find you videos of people doing this if you would like.

[spiral pilot]

and the devs should take a step back, make a change, get some numbers and adjust, instead of coming to discord to whomever is screaming their lungs out (Myself included, im aware of the hypocrisy there).

[humble marsh]

Maybe, but I don't have control over any sniper changes.

Also do you really want the to take the statistics of how many people play recon? It wasn't a low number just fyi

[plain shard]

it depends if the enemy team has a competent sniper. If they do you won't do so hot. If they don't you can go ham but only if you have the raw mechanical aim and tracking. I have easily 10k hours in fps games. most people don't. Most people can't compete with me regardless of what I use. Trails make sniping redundant because you cannot perform the role if your position is perminently known.

[humble marsh]

Everyone thinks they're supporting their team by sniping, but if everyone is sniping, then no one is on the objective. Frontlines and invasion tell the story for me

[blissful gazelle]

I think it would be cool if Oki turned the glint, trail, and sound changes into a way to distinguish the different snipers in the game, as they are all pretty much the same right now. It would be cool to see some snipers suited for 'cqc' sniping, medium range stealth sniping, and long range sniping.

[idle bay]

you do realize youre the only recon on your team getting those kills almost everyone else on youre team who was recon has sub 30 kills, youre good an had good positioning so you got rewarded its not that hard to understand that

[blissful gazelle]

Uh...

[spiral pilot]

Single anomaly of a few players. How many play the game each day? We the fools come here to argue, but data isnt there and posts and polls are not how to achieve this. Those are 2 games out of how many? A 100? 200? Did you actively change the win rate of the matches you sniped so well? At that point you are playing your own mini war, man.

[blissful gazelle]

Yeah I realize that.

[spiral pilot]

Yeah no. You dont have a solid data point to justify it.

[blissful gazelle]

What do you think I disagree with you about

I was responding to the guy who said you cant sit in the same spot and get kills.

[blissful gazelle]

Also I think that was 2 games out of a few days of sniping. Def. not in the hundreds, probably in the 20s.

I also got another 59-0 but I dont think i ss'd it

[idle bay]

you really cant now sub 200m cause youll just get blasted cause of trails no such thing as good positioning or flanking with a sniper anymore

[plain shard]

I think that is the main problem honestly. quantifying the effectiveness of snipers based upon the extreme minority that actually do have any impact on a game. Most recons end the game with 10-30 to 20-40. Most recons play recon because they get shit on up close.

[blissful gazelle]

I agree. I didnt specify that these games were before the sniper changes.

hence this idea #1184004829325053994 message

[idle bay]

this nerf has to be the dumbest one yet imo completely almost kills a class and removes fun and aggressive play styles that you could do sub 200m

[blissful gazelle]

I think it's just a case of Oki nerfing things that he doesnt really understand the playstyle of.

[spiral pilot]

My point exactly. Anyways, if 30-40% of server pops are still recons with sniper rifles, they will keep driving people off the class until the distribution is either equitative, or according to devs targets

[plain shard]

I like getting behind the enemy and raining shots into them now you fire one and they all turn and you get burnt. Not because they knew where to look but because a trail pointed at you.

[blissful gazelle]

@humble marsh Have you happened to hear of any really good snipers in the feedback team?

[spiral pilot]

ON a small dev it it is possible.

[humble marsh]

:[

[spiral pilot]

And unless i get a Spartan shield, and a massive jump gate or teleporters back, that should not happen.

[blissful gazelle]

I think that's really the crux of the issue with the changes that are happening right now. Oki making changes that dont make sense because the playstyles they effect are not playstyles he knows anything about

[spiral pilot]

Heh

[blissful gazelle]

Are you a sniper?

[humble marsh]

Tru

[humble marsh]

Not my main class but there's a guy who does

[spiral pilot]

Exactly. A well rounded vision is needed. BBR is great, and it can be better, But this not the way to go.

[merry yew]

ive only seen people playing dmrs today

[spiral pilot]

Giving tools and counters is always preferable to nerfing in general. This is not lol either.

[humble marsh]

But how would I know I don't talk to the feedback team

[plain shard]

because snipers are ass atm

[merry yew]

most sniper were sitting 700+ meters away

[idle bay]

100% was hidden in a building like 80m away from d flag on tensa and after 2 shots my ass got blasted by the enemies taking over the point cause the trails straight up gave me away even though i was hidden

[spiral pilot]

The meta is shifting too fast because the changes cant settle. It in general talks bad of the changes tho

[humble marsh]

Him and Oki are talking dw

[merry yew]

doing nothing

[blissful gazelle]

Yeah, he doesnt seem to think that there is a way to make changes to the game that encourage the playstyle he doesnt see enough of without being detrimental to playstyles that currently exist.

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant comment. They are playing how they want to play.

[idle bay]

its the only way to play with bolts rn without getting gang banged lol

[blissful gazelle]

Imo sniping was never that big of a deal, but the solution to whatever small problem it was were map/sightline changes, not direct nerfs

[spiral pilot]

Wether their contribution to team play matters is something EACH player has to answer to himself. No one owes jack shit on a multiplayer game.

[merry yew]

no problem with the playstyle but they were fighting with each other sniper vs sniper

[spiral pilot]

It is their fun mate, what gives? What is your beef?

2 players out of 254 wont make a difference!

[plain shard]

The core issue is a lot of people play snipers because on the rare occasion the hit a heaadshot they feel like they're the best. Snipers have the cool factor. They will always have disproportionate representation. Representation does not equate to impact though. So if the devs are looking t player count in this instance they are not understanding the cause.

[merry yew]

bad phrasing, my bad

[spiral pilot]

Exactly. They need to objectively analyze. Dopamine is a powerful thing, and sniping isa gooood way to fill it.

everyone gets their dopamine hits from their preferred style, and destroying playstyles and removing that option is always a negative.

Add tools instead to mitigate the issue. Smokes for instance.

[plain shard]

Even when the kill numbers are high most often they are just going to be ultimately irrelvant sniper v sniper wars having 0 impact on the flow of the game.

[spiral pilot]

Adjust duration, size of the smoke, make the bloody smoke launcher aim better, etc...

counters for sniping have been around and effective for so long im surprised the devs here are pushing it so aggresively.

[surreal thistle]

ngl as the occasional sniper the changes dont really affect me too much

[spiral pilot]

And they do have very good observation on their devs asking post about how to limit range on kills. But the idea to being with, is dumb.

[surreal thistle]

if anything i notice glint more than the trails

[spiral pilot]

Glint is meh, but the bullet trail is dumb as nails

[surreal thistle]

how so?

[plain shard]

it's a direct arrow to you.

[surreal thistle]

and?

[spiral pilot]

with a plenty long duration too

[surreal thistle]

i dont die from someone knowing my general direction

[spiral pilot]

You dont need an arrow pointing to you, like the DMR player right next to you doing the same thing

[idle bay]

makes me nut when i hit multiple shots in row

[plain shard]

not overly relevant if you are sitting at the back of the map 9 miles away but if you have a close flank that players aren't looking for and would not have otherwise seen they now see it immediately

[surreal thistle]

for reference im sniping within 50-200 m

[spiral pilot]

You are being detrimental on purpose, and drowning the conversation. The issues at hand are clearly explained and detailed. Go read them

[idle bay]

same

[plain shard]

4 people looking at you 100m away with m4s and you are immediately deleted.

[surreal thistle]

huh? im just asking a question

[merry yew]

my issue is that at first i thought that the changes didnt really matter, when i was trying to do the weekly mission i realize who bad the changes were (glint+trails) you literally cant shoot at 0-400 meters without getting shoot by other sniper or every person in the lobby, so now everyone sit down farther away

[spiral pilot]

The answer is yes, in general, you die if people know your general direction.

[surreal thistle]

are you sitting in one spot?

[spiral pilot]

yes you do. shooters work like that mate.

[plain shard]

people have to be looking in your direction to see a glint people only have to be shot near to spot you with a trail

[spiral pilot]

Exactly my point.

[idle bay]

legit recon is now a spawn die class if you use bolt snipers and arent at the edge of the map or 500m+ out

[merry yew]

and even when you are 500m+ you shoot and every other sniper is going to start looking for you

the sound is pretty bad tho

[spiral pilot]

agreed, sub 500m sniping is gone with the current trails.

[merry yew]

yo can hear a sniper shooting basically across the map

[spiral pilot]

glint was okay ish, but the trails are plain dumb. Sneaky sniper is dead, as any sniper style below 500m is shoot once and then run away hoping you can relocate far enough to take another shot

[idle bay]

you can do it, but you get melted instantly for even shooting and its just unfun now tbh

[surreal thistle]

im not getting melted?

[spiral pilot]

the sniper bullets close to you ALSO have unique sounds

[spiral pilot]

Single player anomaly is irrelevant

500 people could come here with the same comment and they would be irrelevant

[plain shard]

I was totally unaware of palyer in the building next to me earlier until he shot and I saw the trail. He got melted. I almost felt bad doing it. He'd done a great flank ot get there.

[spiral pilot]

maybe you shoot and scoot every shot. nice.

[surreal thistle]

and 500 people on your side would be relevant?

[spiral pilot]

not either

stats and time with paced changes is necessary

[idle bay]

it is an issue given the movement speed of the you really dont have time to relocate after every shot without being hunted down or shot at now sub 200m if you shoot at a group larger than 2 or a concentrated warzone

[surreal thistle]

Alright, lemme test some more. I'm doing this as we speak, popping back in after a death or downtime

[plain shard]

I suppose my biggest problem with it personally is it lowers the skill ceiling of creative plays. It's less about creative positiong now and more about hard cover. In so doing it has made the recon class far less relevant to objective play. Now it's only about extreme range shots which is borderline irrelevant to objective play.

[surreal thistle]

Wouldnt that be the opposite? If people are saying that you're broadcasting your location wouldn't you want to not stay behind cover?

[plain shard]

no because if you aren't in hard cover you're going to get shot immediately.

[idle bay]

yup flanking is 100% killed by trails you'll die maybe after 2 or 3 kill at most

[plain shard]

you also get hard focused by vehicles.

[spiral pilot]

And leave my hard earned vantage point for a measly single opportunity of getting a kill? What other class gets that level of punishment.

[plain shard]

I typically play from 0-300m away from the enemy. Usually intentionally by myself at distinctly different angle to that of the main line/push. previously I could go for a long time without being noticed due to being off to one side or behind enemy players. Often running out of ammo before I died. Now I am immediately identified and pushed because the trail (unlike scope glint) doesn't care about angle. Sure I could sit behind my line and have no real impact on the game and pop pop pop but I like to actually contribute to the win.

stop flanks, break defenses, stop team reses, destroy spawn beacons etc

[surreal thistle]

Hard earned? You just walk back or find somewhere else?

[plain shard]

It's hard earned if you've spent two minutes runnig around the enemy line to get to a vantage point that actually helps your team push the objective.

[surreal thistle]

this is my usual playstyle

sorry for bad quality i had to get it under 25mb

[surreal thistle]

heres 3 seperate clips in 1 life in the same ~20m area

The first guy was already looking in my area. The second guy I killed because of the trail and got really lucky. The third guy I'm pretty sure wasn't even the one who shot at me, i just shot at glint.

So I don't think I was spotted from the trail because I was out in the open and they were facing an area with lots of people, but I knew the general area for the last 2 guys from trail.

Nobody shot me

[surreal thistle]

This sniper nest vs sniper nest fight isnt because of trail, this stuff happened at the game's launch. I didn't even die to them.

[surreal thistle]

Idk man, tracers are already in the game. I don't see this any differently.

[gray jetty]

Its funny because sniper is still so popular even after this changes

They should go back on trail and absolutely Destroy m200 so people dont play 1000 m away from action. Even at something like 1300m its a point and click weapon no skill needed

[indigo basin]

this really sum up my experience

people don't even notice the trails so i get to run around with a 6x instead of a 4x and i can get kills even easier now 😊

[indigo basin]

like even then look at all these traces flying by every class stands out if they keep firing from the same position just keep your movement up and you won't have the same 5 people you just killed running to exactly where you were when you killed them

[surreal thistle]

Yeah good point. All guns have tracers, sound, flash (most of the time), and the game tells you where you're hit from all to show you where an enemy is. A smoke trail isn't going to make much of a difference.

[torpid tinsel]

big man is typing 👀

[thick kernel]

I played sniper for 3 hours last night, I had no issue, if I were to missed my shot, I was exposed, punishing me for missing it in first place, if I were to kill the player at first shot, got the kill.

With the current changes, snipers skill requirement just increased, it's no longer, you can miss and you have one more try because the guy has no clue getting shot from you.

Sorry for calling but it's skill issue at this point. Before anyone could use it because there were almost no disadvantages, shoot a person for 100 times, the guy wouldn't know, use medium range scope, you are invisible. That's no longer the case.

[dire herald]

Any opinion about Snipers Stats https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1183682362219962419

[thick kernel]

That is something I agree with which there will be some changes 100%.

[unique thistle]

Oki do you understand the reasons why snipers have scopes with huge magnification? yes, to snipe from afar

you can miss and you have one more try because the guy has no clue getting shot from you.
the punishment is the distance itself, if the person moves at lets say 400 meters away, it can be hard to hit the shot while the person obviously gets an idea where you roughly are (walls on your left with impacting rounds: the shots can only come from the right)

actively punishing sniper players that go for long range kills is proof that you have not understood the purpose of a sniper rilfe

if you adjust the snipers bullet velocity to some reasonable values (~850 for m200 for example), medium and long range sniping will become "even harder"

[south stump]

People don’t have enough awareness to notice sniper round impacts

[unique thistle]

the entire point of being a sniper is shooting people from a distance with them not directly knowing where you are, this is just the concept of a sinper

[unique thistle]

the game devs should not try to "balance" out players incompetence...

[dire herald]

Move a little if you missed

[unique thistle]

I am talking about moving targets, actively running and such

[south stump]

But when playing against other people in this kind of game, people do not want to die out of nowhere

[dire herald]

I hate the skill issue response from him but if you’re comfortable with the sniper its not a problem

[thick kernel]

Yes it's meant to snipe for far, which in real life, it's really hard to counter back, but this is a game, high reward should have have risk, and so far, they were in godly position, invisible from players, no sound clues, easy to play. Specially a nightmare for regular infantry.

[dire herald]

Use m200 if you missed alot with moving targets

[unique thistle]

if you start balancing things for the sole reason that other players do not understand how to counter things, you will be in an endless cycle where you turn the game into something stupid

[south stump]

They want to be able to fight against their attackers and know why they died before getting insta killed

[tacit jacinth]

As someone who still gets 60+ kill recon games the trail should just start at 50-200m not directly out of the barrel.

It coming directly out of the barrel hurts aggressive sniping using natural cover like on isle.

[dire herald]

ok this one I agree

[thick kernel]

Before the player had 0 idea what they were up to, I would call it's their end issue if game was giving all clues they were getting shot from a sniper, yet, that wasn't the case.

[unique thistle]

before what exactly?

[dire herald]

Long range players using Medium scopes

[thick kernel]

• no sound clue and trail

[dire herald]

That’s a broken playstyle no counter play even with a maxed out m200

At least a speed demon vector can still get out aimed but a long range invisible sniper that just annoying

[thick kernel]

It was being abused heavily not gonna lie, you have a deadly weapon, almost no disadvantage, fast bullets, high damage, alot of ammo, easy graphics to spot, no bullet drop, big hitboxes.

What is the disadvantage?

Spoiler Alert:

None

Where is the skill level with laser beam snipers? None

Missing shot? no problem, you can try again, because the guy has no clue

[dire herald]

The only counter to a good sniper is another sniper

and you can just strafe their shots if you predict it

trails made counter sniping easier which is very needed

[south stump]

In short to medium range games, snipers will always be a problem.

[dire herald]

If you want to play like a CoD sniper you should accept the odds

[coarse tusk]

Then why did you put one in the game. Doubt anyone made you put crazy velocity on these guns.
Drop velocity to get rid of lasers, make aiming and drop comp more important, then give snipers back their reward for good positioning and creative hides

[unique thistle]

almost no disadvantage,
the distance itself, even more so if the next would be thought about:

fast bullets
decrease the velocities so that they make sense, currently they are like 150% of what they should be

alot of ammo
excuse me? 4 mags is not really "a lot", otherwise: reduce ammo for snipers? due to the squad points, this is a conceptual problem nothing but reworking ammo-crate requests would solve

no bullet drop,
this is bs and you know it, especially when you factor in point 2 of my message, bullet drop exists, try killing someone at 1600 meters, again, point 2 would also "increase" bullet drop due to slower bullet

big hitboxes.
this could be said for literal anything in the game..

[south stump]

reworking the airdrops just for snipers would be a bad idea

[unique thistle]

snipers could also be static damage if you will, dont increase with range, just make a headshot one shot and the rest 2 shot or whatever

[thick kernel]

Because they are part of the game, however it was at broken, super easy hack to get high KD level, that's no longer the case.

[unique thistle]

well, then the "alot of ammo" argument would fall apart

[thick kernel]

You have supply box, you are moving edge of the map, calling a supply box, taking a dip from your beer and sniping the rest of the team.

[dire herald]

The distance is our Double edge sword as a 1 shot machine

[coarse tusk]

So you put rifles with velocities that are, in your opinion broken, because they are a part of your game?

[tacit jacinth]

I won't touch light armor for sniper with the ammo unless I was playing aggressive with a dedicated support partner.

[thick kernel]

the velocities are revisited for a while already with https://ptb.discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1183682362219962419 but, haven't released something yet.

[unique thistle]

you seem to not have understood my message right (maybe due to bad wording):
if you say "alot of ammo" for snipers as a problem, that can not be solved until the ammo boxes would get a rework too or they outright getting removed from snipers, there are many means to get mags in the game, this is a non-issue

[thick kernel]

I meant, you don't have problem of running out of ammo while supply box exist.

[coarse tusk]

So will removing the trail be on the table if this rework shows there is no more laser beam sniper problem?

[unique thistle]

that applies to any other class as well, not an issue in the recon class

[woeful lantern]

so that's it? we have an update that let anyone know where you are at each shot you fire, so anytime you shoot you get killed, people complain and the answer is skill issue? or did i miss something?

[dire herald]

that solves nothing lmao keep the trails every snipers want to counter other snipers

[thick kernel]

Never, the trail is probably one of best feedbacks we have given to players. Each game does implement it, it was stupid to not prioritise it in first place.

[mortal skiff]

sniping below 500m is just whack anyways

[dire herald]

Real if you play like that accept the odds

Your trynna be better than anybody else if that’s your playstyle

[unique thistle]

random idea: a sniper sound clue (like sniper elite 5), the player you are aiming at gets an obvious sound clue played

[tacit jacinth]

The trails just need a tweak.

[woeful lantern]

add a cinema grade lightspot that follow them everywhere

[dire herald]

And the Glints too add a timer before the scope glints or something

[south stump]

maybe a small visual signal to the people who would be able to see the scope glint but is not looking directly at the glint

[mortal skiff]

it shouldn't appear/be very unnoticable for the first 200-300m

[south stump]

glint is fine

[coarse tusk]

Might as well do the glowing floating arrow on recons at this point.

[dire herald]

It’s brighter than the sun

[unique thistle]

SE5 also had this, a little white flash when the sniper is aiming at you (paired with a sound) but then it disappeared, you got an idea where the sniper is but still had to search for him

[thick kernel]

that is 25-30 meters?

[woeful lantern]

i only play sniper: it is not, long range sniper are really bright and that's fair, mid range scope are barely visible and with the short angle update it's just fine

[dire herald]

Add trails to DMR give us a chance to fight those players

[mortal skiff]

no clue what you mean, just thought it would be a good way to balance the sniper trail

[south stump]

personally, i would just add the small white flash, but idk

[thick kernel]

Trail on DMR feels too much.

[dire herald]

Glints or the sound just give us something to spot those guys

[coarse tusk]

Idk, you can kill people with them so they might need a nerf

[south stump]

DMR already takes at least two shots to kill anyone

if they are close enough to kill in 3 back to back shots, then any other gun would have killed as well

[dire herald]

DMR dominates 400m recently and they’re invisible

[south stump]

From a further distance, hitting 3 shots one after the other is really difficult

But the M110 is a different thing

[unique thistle]

what the update did for me:

• I loved playing sniper (on big open maps), laying around a kilometer +- 400 meters trying to get nice long range kills, after the first update (glint on medium), I have used it less due to being pretty obvious to everyone while trying to find targets at range (cause binos are kinda shit), that somewhat frustrated me due to my playstyle like a "real" sniper: far away, little amount of kills but with nice feeling when I get one at 1200 meters or so
• Then the latest update (trails) came and I have completely stopped playing sniper, why? cause my entire, non-"farming" playstyle got nuked, bullet trails are very obvious especially at range, medium range snopes can no longer be my binos, long range scopes have a glint, medic it is then

[dire herald]

M110 2 shots and with a good set up there is barely a first shot kick

[unique thistle]

you know, you are also fucking people with these changes that dont "abuse" it

and its hella frustrating

[thick kernel]

Anyway, in short, you get a deadly weapon, in exchange, you get a huge disadvantage on other side.

It never should be either no disadvantage, only positive or no advantage, only negative at all.

Since release of the game, snipers were on only advantage, no disadvantage side, now they are balanced where they have a disadvantage, that's all.

[woeful lantern]

the main difference is the rate of fire, if they can full auto a weapon that deal 50% of my hp each bullet it's not "fair and balanced"

[south stump]

M110 is different, i dont like it, it would be nice for a change to m110

[unique thistle]

Since release of the game, snipers were on only advantage, no disadvantage side, now they are balanced where they have a disadvantage, that's all.
I personally never saw enemy snipers a huge problem to begin with, but who am I ¯_(ツ)_/¯

and no: "people complained" is not an argument

[dire herald]

Glints on DMR solves our biggest counter

Automatic ban a RPK guy spamming in 400m

[south stump]

I'm in the same boat, but now people are really complaining, apparently i have to take a side

[dire herald]

Recon back in game

[coarse tusk]

People complained is an extremely valid and heavily weighted argument here

[south stump]

i never really cared about snipers

[unique thistle]

which is sad, because that again can be said for every position here

[unique thistle]

i just play the overpowered medic and call it a day while being sad this game ruined something that I liked

[dire herald]

Majority does and that’s how it works

[woeful lantern]

for people like me who love to sharp shoot (being at relatively close range) being able to shoot just one bullet before being downed because everyone see me sounds like the biggest disadvantage of the game

[south stump]

Its semiauto and people cant hit for shit. If they do, your getting killed by a good player which you could never beat anyways

[dire herald]

You just gotta accept that tbh because that class isn’t played like that

[south stump]

heh, true

[unique thistle]

most snipers I have encountered very-close range are switching to secondary, I even thank snipers for not switching to secondary when I killem lol

[dire herald]

That’s like asking a Vector to do the same at damage 300m+

So we can enjoy beaming at midrange

[woeful lantern]

the only good side arm is the glock18 and you can kill max 2 people if you're lucky

[woeful lantern]

what's the link with the vector?

[dire herald]

Giving a gun that has no weakness

is the same as sniper playing close has little no risk

smg cant kill long range we can kill from edge of the map good trade 🤷‍♂️

[south stump]

Deagle is good if you can aim

[woeful lantern]

the sniper already have the worst rate of fire, ADS and reload time and it glint... what do you call "no weakness" ?

[dire herald]

If you enjoy beaming from mid range you gotta accept the odds

[south stump]

no counter play, one shots

[unique thistle]

why not scale the damage of a sniper with the range

[thick kernel]

Each gun has their affective range.

• Want short range? Use SMGs
• Want short-medium? Use battle rifles
• Want medium-semi long? Use DMR
• Want long range? Use Sniper

If you are using sniper for short range, that's on you.
This is same as arguing 'Why I cannot kill players with SMG on long range'. Because it's not it's purpose.

[dire herald]

Recon isn’t meant to be played close range?

that’s why the risk are higher playing a agro sniper

[south stump]

nah, just quick scope everybody

[dire herald]

But if you enjoy that accept the odds

Just like ump players

[unique thistle]

great list! do you punish SMGs for use at short range? no
do you punish BRs for use at short-medium range? no
do you punish DMR for use at medium-semi long range? somewhat
do you pusnih snipers for use at long range? absolutely

[woeful lantern]

what i was calling short range is where you place DMR

"short range for a sniper" if you prefere

[thick kernel]

We punish them for using on long range.
Edit: THE (SMGs)

[vale hazel]

"Nooo I can't play with my riskless one shot gun at close range anymore" what a type of players you guys are wow

[thick kernel]

What is an SMG's damage? 22? 23? what is a sniper damage? 60-80?

[unique thistle]

therfor: snipers are in a very weird spot, long range is punished, short range is punished

[thick kernel]

You possibly cannot argue that lol

[woeful lantern]

"riskless" tell me you never played the class without telling me you never played the class

[dire herald]

Bro if you make a sniper good at close range you’re already a God or a cheater lmao

[unique thistle]

oki do you know your longest range sniper kill out of the top of your head? i would be interested

[thick kernel]

check the leaderboard (~2.8km around)

[unique thistle]

and do you snipe at this range regularly?

[thick kernel]

In bf4 alot, in BattleBit, not that interested

[vale hazel]

glint is now so small it's almost non existent which makes snipers are even more powerful now imo

[unique thistle]

in BattleBit, not that interested
why exactly?

[south stump]

All those shots are set up with a Blackhawk and two friends for the 2.8k shots

[woeful lantern]

poor choice of words that's on me, what i was calling close range for sniper is 300m+

[vale hazel]

cus maps are kinda dookie

[nocturne karma]

I thought the point of sniper nerfs was to get people to play in closer, since someone sitting 600m+ away in spawn does not really contribute to teamplay

[thick kernel]

Because I am having fun with coordinating the squad and talking to people, not camp on other side, the voice chat is fun as hack

[unique thistle]

I assumed that lol

[nocturne karma]

unless they are spotting effectively

[dire herald]

Ah yeah 300-400m almost all guns dominates (how a ump killing me at 200m)

[woeful lantern]

that the kind of "once in a lifetime" shot

[south stump]

i spawned on one of the helis going for that shot, i hate them, annoying

[vale hazel]

are people just complaining that their very niche playstyle got nerfed and now snipers are a dead class or sum

[dire herald]

recon is a high level play style if you can’t maximize it maybe change a play style that’s it

[nocturne karma]

My biggest complaint is that the smoke trail is ugly when it leaves your barrel 😂

[vale hazel]

nah smoke trail is cool and cinematic

[woeful lantern]

being nerfed is fine, glint on medium scope was fine, being seen by everyone at each shot is not just a nerf and that's why people complain

[nocturne karma]

Just wish it was a bit higher res

[vale hazel]

just hit headshots and you can't be shot at back, no?

[dire herald]

But recon drone is finally useful

[vale hazel]

playing with sniper is just high risk (smoke trail, glint) high reward (one shot potential)

[woeful lantern]

sure because when you headshot someone all his team mate goes "well gg he deserve it" and mind their own buisness

[dire herald]

nerf 3d spotting

[vale hazel]

you want snipers to be unspottable or something?

[dire herald]

All ghilled up just get spotted by a drone

[woeful lantern]

i'm sure we can find a middle ground between unspotable and "everyone see you each time you shoot"

[unique thistle]

i like the "trail, no glint" option in the other thread

[vale hazel]

I think you wastly overstimate importance of smoke trail, because either way after you kill somebody with or without trail their camera just pans on you and they can spot you

[dire herald]

Well guess the other sniper is just better at positioning instead of staying on a rooftop 🤷‍♂️

[spiral pilot]

Opinion and personal experience can be subjective. Try gathering data, is my only sensitive reply. I can't believe the man himself dropped by. If the idea is to punish by missing with a bolt action, you simply are pushing for DMRs. So everyone doing medium range will just swap to DMRs for no medium glint and not be punished by missing one shot. For the second thing, your position being revealed matters depending on how much effort was spent on positioning. If i went sneakly around for 3-5mins to get a good flank, and got my 5 minute effort destroyed after 2 shots, the flanking sniper effort is gone and im also better using DMRs. If that is your vision for the gameplay style, so be it. It may change in the future. I guess DMRs are simply the way now, for everything medium range. You still did not want that, as in your Devs ask post, and that is what is pushed.

[dire herald]

Agree

DMR is dominating snipers right now

[woeful lantern]

again there is no relation between what i say and what you answer...

[vale hazel]

just don't miss sniper shots smh, you are supposed to be accurate and all

[woeful lantern]

majority of people just press the "fast die" button

[unique thistle]

theory and practice is different my man

[vale hazel]

I know I sometimes pick sniper too (to counter snipe) and I think going for anything but headshots is just wrong lmao

[woeful lantern]

again, the guy you shoot have team mate, you're not alone with your target on the map, "just kill him and it will be fine" is dumb (sorry) of course his team mate will retaliate

[vale hazel]

you just want to not be able to be called out or smth? Sniper is not some sort of "invisible" class, never was supposed to be imo

[unique thistle]

giamoko sensible opinion, thanks for sharing

[thorny gulch]

Oh no, imagine being shot at in an fps

[spiral pilot]

If this is game vision, then so it is, fair. You do have to deal with your easy to hit hitboxes, so this makes sense as a push. I would have preferred other methods but it is my opinion. This was the vision you had, and well, you did push it. fair.

[woeful lantern]

i'm not asking for that stop fantasizing recon player, again their is obviously a middle ground to find between invisible and imposed to the eyes

[spiral pilot]

Not even in counterstrike do all shots land, please drop the bad faith argument

[vale hazel]

so in nutshell you want sniper to be no risk high reward class ( as it was before smoke trail and glintless medium scopes)? aight got it

[thorny gulch]

Don't recons have access to other weapons that they could use instead of the sniper rifle at close-medium range?

[unique thistle]

if you use aimbot, sure, then that would be correct, but you do not hit every shot, not even close, especially at further range

[woeful lantern]

last game i played, nearly half my kill were people i see beacause of their trail... they weren't aiming at me at all, it doesn't feel fair for them

[unique thistle]

i dont think many people play sniper to play with an AR or something lol

[vale hazel]

class requires accuracy
I lack enough accuracy and die few times during the game
game is bad
???

[spiral pilot]

Scope glint is fine. Bullet trails, well, this isn't Halo. You are claiming no risk based on the fact shooting at players on medium distance involves 0 risk, and that is a lie. In a team based, combined arms game, every time you peak to take a shot you may be counter sniped, shot by vehicles, and at less than 200m, ARs and LMGs can kill you well enough.

[vale hazel]

dying is okay guys

[unique thistle]

just shut up man, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and no idea what others in the channel are talking about

[thorny gulch]

Good thing the class is called recon then

[spiral pilot]

The same can be said to snipe victims. Yet here we are.

[nocturne karma]

Sadly, people don't want to spot or team play.

[unique thistle]

conceptual problem of the game, tried being a proper squad lead in the playtest-times, no one listened, kids to be kids

[spiral pilot]

This is also in a bad faith response... Why?

[vale hazel]

so you want close range sniping, which is not the intended way to play said class, to be not anyhow punished or discouraged? also ofc 200m and below you get killed by ARs and LMGs, that means they work as intended

[woeful lantern]

you know you cannot just answer "skill issue" at every balance complain?

[thorny gulch]

At the end of the day you just have to accept that the average sniper rifle user wants to play a game where they have 100% of the agency in every situation and learn to ignore them like you ignore helicopter pilots upset that they die once or twice a round

[vale hazel]

I just think people really overstimate smoke trails or just hate repositioning for some reason in this particular case

[nocturne karma]

Can't reposition when there is only one windmill next to spawn

[spiral pilot]

Maybe we do. Maybe if we had some data we could find out.

[vale hazel]

you don't have to go on said windmill?

[nocturne karma]

I should have added /s 🙂

[vale hazel]

lmao yeah some people are just way too tunnel visioned into windmills and stuff

[woeful lantern]

my issue is not repositioning, it's repositioning after each shot... no class in this game is revealed to everyone when they shoot like that

[spiral pilot]

That is also the answer to everyone complaining about snipers. This can be changed to any class. The average AR use just wants to have 100% agency in every situation and ignore the fact they have tools to stop sniper fire by simply throwing smoke.

[vale hazel]

all the time kill like 10-15 people camping on windmill valley by destroying it

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant. You are tangential now.

[vale hazel]

because no other class can one shot you, except, arguably engi

[spiral pilot]

This is the issue, and well, as i said, you are to play from far way now that the smoke trail wont matter.

[thorny gulch]

I complain about snipers because I can camp in my team's spawn and come out with a 40+ k/d while barely engaging with the game in a way that's fun for anyone else or requires any effort

[woeful lantern]

so i'm forced to become the cliché everyone trashtalk? being in the limit of the safe zone doing 5 kill per game?

[vale hazel]

some maps do be like that

[woeful lantern]

on every map and on both side there is always like 4 to 5 people doing that

[spiral pilot]

That was your chosen activity, so it is fun for you. It is irrelevant to the discussion. On a semi realistic fashion, THIS is how it is meant to be. Otherwise why put sniper at all in the game? TOp out at DMRs and have all the map design and possible engagement distance below 500m

[vale hazel]

some people are just stuck to that playstyle, no idea why

[woeful lantern]

that's just noob (ikr i've started like that) but it doesn't seems fair to balance things around noobs

[thorny gulch]

This is a multiplayer game, something that's fun for me shouldn't be frustrating or unfun for other players

[spiral pilot]

That is hyperbole, but yeah. If you want to use a bolt action, you have to sit very far back for bullet trails to not matter, and you were already punish by glint. So yeah. The man himself said Bolt actions in his game are only meant for very long range.

[woeful lantern]

that's kinda sad not gonna lie

[spiral pilot]

Wrong. Terribly wrong. And they have tools to avoid you in 2 action. Get smoke out, and throw it. Also, build cover in 3-5 secs. Not having the ability to retailiate to EVERY threat is completely normal in a combined arms game. This aint CoD.

[vale hazel]

well, that's why recon has DMRs for closer engagements tbf

[spiral pilot]

You literally just complained that snipers want 100% agency on all situations. So now the closer range player want 100% agency on all situations? You don't get to decided was is fun for everyone. And I am sure the counter snipe play in this game is plenty on enough. I know you rarely get to sit idle more then 10 minutes sniping without any response. Counter sniping is a thing and people do it. Again, lets gather some data and find out.

[thorny gulch]

"games shouldn't be fun" is certainly a take lol

[spiral pilot]

Yeah, I will not argue that, it is true. And again, the dev himself wants it so, so that is in line with hes vision tbf.

[spiral pilot]

Hyperbole. Sometimes games are NOT fun. They teach to think and manage frustration.

[woeful lantern]

got to go guys it was an interesting debate 👋

[vale hazel]

I love drama ngl

[spiral pilot]

Otherwise Elden ring would just flop lol.

[spiral pilot]

Totally on that boat lol.

[vale hazel]

I don't even care about snipers that much I just enjoy debating when dev is on my side essentially

have fun convincing Oki guys

gtg

[spiral pilot]

Will do, and who knows, I hope his vision for this is the right one. He may as well be right. I want to push him to have data or appropiatte tools to find out about the meta other than hearsay and vocal players.

[thorny gulch]

sounds like the sniper rifle changes are more than living up to your expectations then

[spiral pilot]

Probably too much indeed. And dev says its skill issue or un intended use of bolt actions. Their vision is there, so it might be so that you were never intended to play like this. If so players will adapt. I do believe it is excessive, and simply confirms the title of this post. Bolt actions have to be further back for this penalties to not matter

[mellow harness]

I do think a range limit similar to the glint, and/or reduction to draw attention to, but not point straight at, a sniper may help... but I can see it staying as is as well. It's frustrating getting sniped and saying "where the fuck was that guy???" but I also have played before and can see how its frustrating

[spiral pilot]

A reduction to a half second bullet trail or less, would be adequate. It should only be a warning, not a 3 second arrow. We already have very good 3d spotting

[mellow harness]

I could certainly accept that

[spiral pilot]

And this is my compromise, cause I think trail should be gone, or limited to the M200

[mellow harness]

Maybe scale trails based on sniper velocity or smthin

but yes that would be acceptable

I don't think the idea should be "get a straight line from the sniper" but "give a general idea so you can watch for the glint" kinda thing

[chilly glacier]

So it's great that snipers don't get multiple tries for free. Why do DMR users do though? By the time a sniper fires a second shot, you can miss one and hit two more with a DMR.

[spiral pilot]

Cause his vision is that if you want to miss at medium range, you should be using a DMR.

the problem is, even if you DONT miss, you are screwed on the follow up kills

unless you relocate a lot

or wait a few seconds to have their attention go away.

[chilly glacier]

Or you can just chain five headshots in a row to kill all witnesses, this simply makes sniping more skillful 😌

[restive trail]

Snipers having to move. Oh no.

Whatever will they do

[spiral pilot]

Hyperbole. This is not an active issue. And also not the way the class has played in any game at all. Moving is okay... every few shots.

[chilly glacier]

So far? Grabbing a DMR and killing a lot more people, a lot faster than I would with a bolt action lol

[restive trail]

Yeah DMRs are insanely good.

M110 being the most used one I've seen. 2 shot kill at any range. It's a bit silly.

[spiral pilot]

They aren't. They are simply shinning in their spot due to bolt action nerfs. They are not overpowered.

at least not without data to back any claim... of either underpowered or overpowered

[restive trail]

M110 is incredibly overtuned. At the very least.

[spiral pilot]

Data or bust mate. this is hearsay at best

Having the DMR shine at this range WAS the intention of the devs though.

[restive trail]

You can kill people faster than they can react at ANY range with m110. It can be VERY successful at cqc. It isn't hard to hit 2 shots unless there's someone actively holding an angle.

[mellow harness]

Imo Dmrs might need some slight sniper-eque traits to put it in line with other sniping weapons. Maybe just add the glint since it isn't insanely overtuned now, and doesn't appear outside of long range

Since you can honestly use DMRs as snipers with some of them

[restive trail]

M110 is incredibly overtuned

I'd have to test the other DMRs, but tbh, there's just no reason to use them when m110 exists

[mellow harness]

mk20, the starting one, had been my goto for assault for a long time

[plain shard]

I have to disagree that snipers are pure advantage. To anyone that hasn't played thousands of hours of fps and doesn't have uncommonly good aim they're not going to be doing anything productive. The disadvantage is that you have to be skilled. The skill issue is the enemy not being aware enough to work out where you are. I have more time as a medic than a recon and can honestly say I have never found recon to be problematic. 9/10 you can identify them immediately by the glint and if you stay mobile and erratic even a good sniper isn't going to hit you at any longer ranges. There are also smoke grenades that make snipers completely obsolete. I'm also a firm believer that if you manage to get a flank and shoot enemies from a position that they don't anticipate then you should get functionally free shots on them. You have put in the effort and broken through enemy lines and should be rewarded for that. The way I see it the trail isn't hurting anyone that is sat at the back sniping from extreme range. It exclusively hurts creative and/or aggressive players. Often times it takes upwards of 5 minutes to get a good flank in the bigger game modes and now that effort is rewarded not with some well deserved kills but instead with an instant turn and burn from 10 players with ars on the other team. Ultimately positioning is the skill that separates a good sniper from the masses and now that same skill is being punished by the new mechanics functionally forcing snipers into a boring and largely irrelevant playstyle.

[restive trail]

It's the most consistent to my knowledge, aside from m110

[mellow harness]

because it would just kill everything and had absurd velocity for any range

[chilly glacier]

Also note that unlike getting hit by a sniper, which instantly makes you bleed (hence letting you know it was a high damage shot), the M110 just hits you for 51, which is for all practical purposes indistinguishable from the 47 the MK20 would do, so you don't even know if you will be able to tank one more shot or not

[restive trail]

DMRs are overtuned, yes.

Sniping at range isn't particularly hard. At least no harder than getting a strong flank.

[mellow harness]

Probably just increase the falloff so it doesn't onetap outside of a certain (fairly close) range? what do you think? Any solutions that you had in mind in particular?

[restive trail]

Of course I don't take shots past 800 meters.

[sudden sparrow]

Make 4x scopes have sway and make the control stat actually do something so you can choose between runspeed/sway/recoil/ etc

[spiral pilot]

Data or Bust. Dont spew out opinions as fact

[restive trail]

I never said it was fact.

M110 is the only one that is, as using the weapon can very obviously show, is extremely overtuned.

As for the others, I already said I'd have to test them more.

[spiral pilot]

Data or bust, that is a single players opinion mate.

cant keep making that claim.

[restive trail]

Throw a red dot on m110 and you'll destroy cqc against majority of players. This isn't an unpopular opinion.

[spiral pilot]

They all need testing.

[restive trail]

Feel free to use it yourself. I can give you a build if you like.

[spiral pilot]

It doesnt mean it is OP either

[chilly glacier]

Could work. But IMO, discussing damage in a vacuum is kinda pointless without also looking at armor, which I think merits having a more relevant role in the game. For instance, if armor worked properly (not breaking, covers whole body) then M110 being a two shot on "unarmored" enemies would be perfectly reasonable since then the player is knowingly making a choice of trading durability for speed. As it stands though, everybody gets two shot on the limbs so it ends up being far more punishing against heavier builds.

[restive trail]

I think you're actively deluding yourself if you think the m110 is balanced.

[mellow harness]

oh for sure

[spiral pilot]

This is the sweetspot system of BF 1

[mellow harness]

I'd say DMRs are objectively one of the best overall weapons simply because they have decent TTK at literally any range

Dont get me wrong ARs and SMGs have much better, but the fact they compete AND can literally snipe makes them VERY strong

Its the utility value and "jack of all trades" thing they're going for that makes them strong af

[restive trail]

What do you consider sniping? What ranges?

[tacit jacinth]

They could only have sway on medium if glint was delayed by a few seconds. Otherwise bipod sniping would be awful.

[chilly glacier]

Yeah I would say that a theoretical "super high skill" player would be far more oppressive with DMRs than bolt actions or automatics

[sudden sparrow]

if something isn't proficient in one area it has to be a jack of all trades, otherwise its just kind of bad

[restive trail]

Bc if you lose a gunfight to an AR or smg outside 150m.... well...

[mellow harness]

depend s on the scope and dmr. 3-400 fairly easily with the right ones... i'm sure more

[restive trail]

There's only a few ars that can compete at that distance. Even looking at damage charts says as much.

[mellow harness]

The big issue I think is the falloff is just nonexistant practically - if you can land hits it kills quickly

[spiral pilot]

And it was seen by the dev, and his address was to remove the other weapon class that could compete with it at this range, so now it the dominant choice. See where they shot their own foot now?

[restive trail]

Actually I think only AK15 and FAL

MAYBE g36c

[mellow harness]

Oh 100%.

[spiral pilot]

Dev didnt want everyone running DMRs. And this changes did exactly that.

[mellow harness]

Never said dmrs weren't overtuned, I just think snipers are too lol

[spiral pilot]

Everyone should run DMRs now.

[mellow harness]

Trails are a bit much admittedly. But I see why they exist

[spiral pilot]

at medium ranges anyways

[sudden sparrow]

Top scores i see every game are from low-med range automatic weapons.

[chilly glacier]

Yeah, it's funny because snipers wouldn't need all of these wack ass mechanics if other guns just worked like, you know, actual guns, and were deadly out to longer distances.

[restive trail]

I still don't get why people don't run m110 with red dot. It's actually insane.

[mellow harness]

But yeah the mk20 has a velocity of like 1000+ by default iirc. Comprable to most decent snipers. If you get the long range scope on it, you can just turn it into a semi auto sniper

[restive trail]

Thats due to engagement ranges and flanking, not necessarily weapons.

[spiral pilot]

Cause it is your own personal Bias, face it already.

Your own personal experience is not relevant.

[sudden sparrow]

but you can't evaluate what is 'overtuned' in a vaccuum. If the maps dictate short range weapons resulting in higher scores, then they're better for the application.

[mellow harness]

I really don't think it is

[idle bay]

So you're punishing and killing fun play style and also flanking with a certain weapon simply because you believe we should not use it like that???

[mellow harness]

mk110 is a very strong weapon.

Simply because of breakpoints tbh

they could probably even tune it down a bit and get 2 taps due to bleed damage

[mellow harness]

oh lawd you summoned him

[chilly glacier]

Oh wow I hadn't seen that lol. I fail to see how that logic works when Engi can take PDWs and have short-medium range OHKs with RPG

[spiral pilot]

That is the core of the issue though, how can you claim it is a problem if they are not even outperforming other classes and weapons? player opinion on how opressive it feels? Sniper ARE meant to be OPRESSIVE. You are ment to avoid long sightlines. Or create safe corridors for pushing with smoke.

[sudden sparrow]

people equate 'feels bad to die to' with 'not fair'

[spiral pilot]

This is extremely true

[restive trail]

So the ideal playstyle for you, going off what you're saying, is to avoid the long sight lines? Which every map has? And some spread the entire map, save for very specific sections?

[mellow harness]

Tbf i think the enjoyment of the game is relevant. they are seperate issues but they're both relevant

[spiral pilot]

in a game about war, dying is simply a mechanic.

[sudden sparrow]

you use smokes and on the maps where its neight impossible to avoid those sightlines, you dont use smgs? i mean, there are maps where snipers are useless.

[spiral pilot]

Smoke up? Use transports?

[chilly glacier]

A big problem currently certainly is the lack of consistent options for dealing with this. Armored vehicles are only available on a few modes, smokes only just now became useful and buildables also depend on whether the mode you are in gives you infinite points or not.

(also riot shield is still meme)

[spiral pilot]

like, really? And im sure ALL maps can be navigated to avoid long sighlines. Not all snipers are watching all sightlines

[mellow harness]

I can confirm what Orphan is saying - deployable cover and smoke is VERY strong in open areas. I'll usually throw smoke, bolt to it, drop cover, repeat

[spiral pilot]

If that were the case, the 10 snipers sitting at base that all die to a single flanker wouldnt happen lol

[tacit jacinth]

Recon could use more diverse buildables.

[restive trail]

They get flanked. A sniper or group of snipers getting flanked should be death for them.

[thick kernel]

If you are trying to use a short range weapon for long range, that's your fault, same -> if you are using long range weapon for short range, that's also your fault.

All this time, snipers were good for short range and long range together (on short range, act as slug shotgun not kidding, and on long range as a sniper as it's supposed to be).

[sudden sparrow]

if you played recon you'd know getting flanked IS the death of you

[spiral pilot]

Why arent snipers crying no fair I didnt see you coming, then?

[spiral pilot]

This is true.

[restive trail]

I've pretty much specifically mentioned m110. As I said, it's not an unpopular opinion. I can give you a build to use if you want.

[tacit jacinth]

That would get recon deleted lol.

[restive trail]

I use glock on recon. I survive flanks lol

[spiral pilot]

How is this relevant to dying to flanks a sniper couldnt spot?

[spiral pilot]

Me too, I recently got it and by god it helps.

And you dont survive 100% of those engagements.

[mellow harness]

I think this is a fair point.

Also, given DMRs can be used decently and have a similar utility (usable at almost any range) And the splitting of some weapons into the BR damage type, have tou considered revisiting weapon falloff curves a bit, or looking at these weapons?

[chilly glacier]

Is anyone else confused as to where all of these supposed shotgun-range snipers have been hiding at? Or does Oki consider 200m to be short range?

[restive trail]

Because you mentioned me saying things are overtuned. I haven't said anything about snipers themselves. Only DMRs and m110, because they are strong at every range.

Mainly, and I've been specific, the m110

[mellow harness]

considering SMGs are usable at 100m at times...

[thick kernel]

Don't get me into a round and literally use sniper like a shotgun lol

You can do that all this time

[chilly glacier]

I mean yeah, and none of the changes you have implemented recently would affect such a playstyle in any way so I don't see how the logic of "making them bad in short range" holds up here.

[spiral pilot]

It still needs a headshot. So this is not quite there in term of being the same thing. You hate one shotting, we get that. But after this people will cry getting 2 shot by DMRs and then what?

[mellow harness]

i'm very glad that never took off cuz... ew.

[thick kernel]

they were complaining that trails are visible on short range, that was my counter argument

[idle bay]

No one likes being put into a box, this change affects skill expression in a game where the only way to one shot is hitting the head if they don't have an exo helmet. Do you see people only using snipers in cod and other games long range?? NO, why cause it takes skill to use it like that and is fun to dunk on people who could've killed you faster before you could line up the shot. You can watch many of the clips I've posted in the clips channel that playstyle was fun to me because it was hard and took skill, now I can't do it because everyone in the premises has there gun pointed at my head the moment I shoot. It's just lame and forces snipers to camp off in the distance which is very boring gameplay

[spiral pilot]

personal experience and troll build dont equate fair gameplay mechanics.

[chilly glacier]

Okay... but then short range in this context means something like 100-200m, not shotgun range

[spiral pilot]

the fact you CAN do somethign to prove a point is not a healthy measurement of effectiveness

[restive trail]

This is how metas form in games.

[spiral pilot]

thus, dust must settle and data gathered, or let a new meta form

and the new meta will be DMRs for medium, as intended by devs.

[restive trail]

You can use them effectively in cqc... look at ttk charts...

Since you want data, it's readily available.

[mellow harness]

I also feel the need to ask, why not severely ramp down damage in cqc to prevent this? e.g. ~30 damage in cqc with snipers

They already have damage rampup after all

[chilly glacier]

One more thing though. Do you think that pushing snipers out 400m+ and beyond is the best for the game? I think most enemies and teammates would prefer seeing closer range snipers because then at least it means they have a chance to engage them with their own weapons and participate in objective taking.

[mellow harness]

I do think that is true

[restive trail]

Having to push a sniper isn't a bad thing. If anything it leans into their role more.

[spiral pilot]

TTK isnt the either the best metric mate. I hate its constant use as a balance measure. Strictly saying you need x seconds to kill ignores too much, but that is my opinion. It completely disregards ability to land all shot with said weapons.

[restive trail]

So what data do you want? The data the backs up your point?

[chilly glacier]

I agree! But that's not even an option when snipers all get pushed to safe zone camping.

[idle bay]

Its a lame and boring play style that not everyone enjoys

[sudden sparrow]

big disagree, L96 still goes hard as a medium range mobile weapon

[restive trail]

That's because snipers don't move. It's just that simple. This game has great movement. You can pretty easily go roof to roof or window to window.

[spiral pilot]

If you show me data saying that a significant amount of the player base is dying to snipers above 100m, and the they consistently outperform all other weapon classes in the game, sure, nerf snipers to oblivion

[idle bay]

Do you even snipe??

[restive trail]

I don't believe all snipers need nerfs. Actually now most of them are fine. It's quite literally just m110

[chilly glacier]

Sure. But then none of the recent nerfs really hurt that playstyle. So the question is who is that really supposed to target?

[spiral pilot]

M110 isnt a sniper rifle. it is a DMR.

[restive trail]

Yep! I played recon through my first prestige.

[chilly glacier]

In a way, then it's only affecting the lower skilled snipers that stay in a single spot and can't fight flanks.

[mellow harness]

Have you tried DMRs, maybe BRs? they can perform similarly if you like to pop heads

[tacit jacinth]

The trails shouldn't be visible in short range. I pull out a m9 if there that close, no idea who is using a shotgun sniper.

The issue is the trail leading directly to the sniper instead of 50-200m away. You want players to move but without tweaks it makes shooting from natural cover awful.

I'm a passive/aggressive recon player, I heavily rely on building nests so I can help the team advance.

[idle bay]

I have over 200 hrs on recon and 4k kills on my l96 and I can tell you this trail shit ruins the fun

[torpid tinsel]

my perspective on snipers are people who occasionally provide use to the team by taking out well-positioned players at long distances

[spiral pilot]

AS both ends of the spectrum are present, realize change is needed, in some way, and lets try to build it.

[idle bay]

I have 2k kill on my mk20, they're fun just not as satisfying as a bolt

[restive trail]

It just encourages a more active playstyle. Movement. This isn't a bad tbing.

[mellow harness]

But I think trails do hurt the camping playstyle in a lot of cases, encouraging movement and more focus on positioning which I think is valid

[mellow harness]

that is fair

[torpid tinsel]

Camping is always a pussy move no matter the game or playstyle

[torpid tinsel]

so this basically

[spiral pilot]

For every ONe shot taken? its a potential One kill, two or three if you are lucky. But the idea is people notice you faster, and... that is very detrimental to the class.

[idle bay]

It encourages camping far off as if you get sub 150m you're straight up getting hunted even if you move

[restive trail]

If you CHOOSE to camp far away, that's their choice.

Or they can CHOOSE to just reposition more often. Which ups the skill ceiling and makes the recon more engaging.

[mellow harness]

Maybe we could get a sniper attachments that modify falloff curves for more mid range usage if deemed appropriate then? removes trails and whatnot as well, at the cost of long range dmg?

[spiral pilot]

It is an opinion. Camping is athing in semi realistic mil sims. It mirrors real life things that happen. And dont go on calling people names. That contributes nothing.

[spiral pilot]

just moving around isnt engagin man, what on earth are you on?

[torpid tinsel]

i can call campers what I like

I do not like the playstyle

[mellow harness]

aince that playstyle seems to be what people want, what if we enable it via specific builds, but take away the ability to snipe

[spiral pilot]

then dont do it.

I dont see anyone here making you do stuff you dont like.

[restive trail]

Moving for a strong position to pick targets off, all while being conscious of the surroundings and keeping your head on a swivel sounds pretty engaging.

[mellow harness]

I do have to agree with this

[restive trail]

Summing that up to just "moving" is pretty wild.

[mellow harness]

keeps you from just sitting on a hill and clicking heads

[spiral pilot]

that alreaday happens without bullet trails man. Try staying more than 5 mins shooting in the same spot, you aint lasting there if below 500m

[restive trail]

Except now with bullet trails we have a baseline for where we're being shot from. It gives people a chance without just getting 10 kills for free from 200+ meters.

[spiral pilot]

The hyperbolic idea of all game sitting ass sniper all games all time on the same spot killing me is the issue, cause it aint real.

[restive trail]

There were literal sniper spots people would go and sit all game, though.

[spiral pilot]

You already had that chance. you have the tools, you just want to do it while scoping the threat.

[spiral pilot]

how effective are they? do we have a metric for that?

[restive trail]

If we already had that chance, nothing changed and you shouldn't be complaining.....

[restive trail]

Watch the top snipers before trails. Or even mid and low level snipers.

[spiral pilot]

you dont like equipping smokes and doing anything that doesnt involve shooting. That is the problem. If you can't solve the sniper problem by shooting it back, then it is an unsolvable problem?

what on earth is that logic?

[restive trail]

That's a bold assumption.

[torpid tinsel]

what’s the overall point of this thread again

I lost track

[sudden sparrow]

title*

[torpid tinsel]

need an explanation

[restive trail]

My strategy for snipers was completely avoiding them. Or flanking them. At least when I stopped using snipers myself.

[spiral pilot]

and again, all the changes proposed just push snipers further back. at least the ones using bolt actions

[sudden sparrow]

snipers have become even more isolated in their own bubble with the recent changes

[queen gust]

This is good actually

[spiral pilot]

That is how it should be. Are you saying that, by avoiding them and flanking them, you were dying, mostly, still, to one tap heashots from 100-500m?

[tacit jacinth]

I'm a recon flex player, there are salty recon players, but a lot of players are clueless about recon playstyles.

[restive trail]

I very rarely die in this game in general.

Most my deaths did come from flanking snipers though, yeah.

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant

[restive trail]

Getting close to them suuuuuucks. With bullet trails I now have a general consensus on what route to take to them

[spiral pilot]

they are actually countering your sneaky pants. thus not shooting your partners at the cap. This is intended. If they can shoot you, you are not in cover or in a short sightline.

[restive trail]

If there's a sniper that plays even remotely aggressively, aka repositioning, it gets harder but still possible. Which is good.

[sudden sparrow]

are you guys generally refering to conquest? because these changes do almost nothing in invasion as far as i can tell

[spiral pilot]

True this also has a big impact depending on the game mode.

[torpid tinsel]

Invasion is a meatgrinder too chaotic to tell what’s going on therefore irrelevant

[restive trail]

You just proved my point for bullet trails for me. I get more of an idea of the routes to take. Thank you.

[spiral pilot]

This knowledge should come from counterspotting, and map knowledge. Having flashy lights guide you is easy mode.

[torpid tinsel]

also as the wise Timmy once said, “this game was built on conquest”

[spiral pilot]

So, it is proven now that killing snipers further back is easier.

[tacit jacinth]

Invasion is the best mode for recon atm I think.

[restive trail]

Yes, but only if you use smart routing to not be spotted by them.

[torpid tinsel]

mmm more running -> more opportunities to get shot

[spiral pilot]

pushing them even further back. as per the post title.

[restive trail]

Thus, engaging gameplay on the flank and for the recon.

If you CHOOSE to stay in spawn, that's your choice.

[spiral pilot]

That is your definition, not everyones.

and not a good measuring stick

[ionic rune]

thats the optimal choice for recons after this update

instead of sniping 100-300m from objectives

[spiral pilot]

Personal experience is not the way.

[restive trail]

It's the easier playstyle. Kinda like holding an angle with a vector in a building

[torpid tinsel]

What metric is anything measured (feedback) if it’s not off of personal experience

[restive trail]

If you have to give more attention to the game you're playing, that is engagement.

The recon has to track routes people may use. More attention. The flanker has to consciously use and change his route to get to the recon. More attention.

However, you can sit in spawn with a sniper IF YOU CHOOSE.

[south stump]

Sniper is not that bad

Sniper is fine

[restive trail]

Or you could play aggressively (even if slightly) and regularly reposition yourself after taking a few 150-200 meter shots from a strong position.

If you are getting lasered at 150~ meters before you can pop a head, well. I dunno what to tell you lol

Very few weapons compete with a sniper at that range.

[idle bay]

We already have sound changes and glint on all scopes why tf do we need a GPS line coming our are barrels to baby unaware players to come look at us and kill us, running simulator after every shot is also not fun that something that the just reposition people don't get

[ionic rune]

or just accept that SRs kinda med now and play with DMR / another class with higher kpm potential

[spiral pilot]

it is a double edged sword. Metrics, if possible, should be also taken into account. Feedback + data is where the GOAT blaance is at. But the vocal players only is a disaster

[torpid tinsel]

Doesn’t answer the question

[tacit jacinth]

Who is using the sniper as a shotgun?

[mystic forum]

Kinda funny cause question was - why you punish snipers for being snipers.

[chilly glacier]

Oki saw it in a dream after inhaling too much smoke trail

[mystic forum]

Also why did you purposely removed any counter play against snipers (but DMR) before EA?

Didn't you expect what's coming?

[thick kernel]

the SMGs are punished for using on long range, not snipers lol

[mystic forum]

That's in da stupid games like CoD, we don't like those shit here

[thick kernel]

It was all a dream, game actually didn't release

[spiral pilot]

I cant aswer without data, not objectively and truthfully.

[mystic forum]

Glint+Trail+Sound is quite punishing. On top of other crap. Hell man, PS2 have the same 2 body shot - 1 one headshot snipers. They are invisible on top of that

[spiral pilot]

The weapon itself is punishing. Miss that head shot and you are dead to all weapons below 100m

[ionic rune]

Perhaps you could check sniper rifle user stats correlated with distance of the kills?

Snipers who are sitting in 1 position farming kills without risk (which was the reasoning for this change), were the problem.
These guys are located like +300m away. This means that the trails don't really affect them, because if another player sees a trail from 300m away, they wont go for a hike to kill that 1 sniper anyway.

Trails hurt sniper rifle users who are within ~200m of objectives, being useful and working towards objectives.
If a sniper is killing your mates from a distance of 50-200m, you don't need a smoke trail to figure out where they are and either kill them or use cover/smoke to neutralize them. But apparently, the casual players think we do...

So now we get halo-tier trails (which are way overtuned) on sniper rifles (on top of glint + sound changes).
This means that after 1 shot, there is basically a GPS route to the sniper's location.
Thanks to high movespeed in this game and huge number of players, this means that sniper will be hunted down very quickly.

Players already had bullet tracers, sound and knowledge of the map / possible vantage points, which are more than sufficient info to figure out the position of a sniper.
Also, death screen literally points you at the position of your killer?!

Anyway, this is a huge nerf to sniper rifle users playing within the ~200m ranges.
Options for these players now:

1. Use DMR and do the same farming
2. Move 300+m away and keep farming, most likely not helping the team at all anymore
3. Play another class completely.

P.s. please also share the kd, kpm and spm stats of other classes within 200m ranges, and we can see that recon players hurt by the changes (trails) were not "OP".

Instead of trails, if recon must be nerfed, I suggest:
-map design
-sound design
-sniper rifle velocities increase / drop increase
-lower body shot damage
-scope glint
-med scope sway etc.

[chilly glacier]

Mr. Oki... I don't feel so good... 😶‍🌫️

[idle bay]

Exactly, it takes skill to use at that range and now you're punished for firing to a group bigger than 2 cause you'll get melted cause they saw your trail and are public enemy #1

[chilly glacier]

Okay, to be clear, infil cloak was busted as fuck lol. The only reason that was needed is because the game didn't really have any form of natural cover you could actually use to be stealthy with + dorito spotting that made you instantly visible to the entire team.

[spiral pilot]

Dont be discouraged man, you already are a giant. You made every other game on the style look like shit made by kindergardians. You are titans already. And I have said, this part of developing, can be in extreme daunting and exhausting.

[mystic forum]

Why that was punishing may I ask? AH. Because any heavy was able to kill you 500m away, thats why

[spiral pilot]

Which means the title of this thread is true and bullet trails did fuck all to solve the issue.

[thick kernel]

Giant? I gained couple of kilos last month but not much different than anyone here, trying to figure out something together with everyone how to improve on this game.

[torpid tinsel]

giant in this context is not meaning physical appearance of yourself

[thick kernel]

aware

[torpid tinsel]

🦐

[spiral pilot]

Buahahaja, nah man, as in an example to follow in an industry.

[mystic forum]

The real problem of AR and stuff: I can use that shitter who sitting 300m away, I have scope, my gun is able to land those shots. Then I land them it tickle him 13hp. WITH HEADSHOT.

[torpid tinsel]

game isn’t milsim so headshots aren’t gonna 1sk any gun any range

[mystic forum]

No counter play besides running upclose

[torpid tinsel]

It’s arcade, there’s the balance in place

[mystic forum]

Ok, heading to Squad then 🫡

[torpid tinsel]

🤷‍♂️

[thick kernel]

if the heads were small, I would be ok with it, but they are big

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[torpid tinsel]

I got so fucking confused for a second lmfaoooo

[mystic forum]

I need to land 3 headshots with most guns tho. At 300m it's only SEMI AUTO. (IF ITS MAX DAMAGE)

[mellow harness]

This is an S tier image

damn near cracking up at work now, what have you done

[blissful gazelle]

What was your k-d?

[mystic forum]

Still worse than SMG-cocain-addict-kid

Almost any sniper just pale shadow in comparison

But nerf hummer goes for snipers once again

[south stump]

WTF IS A KILOGRAM!!🇺🇸🦅

[torpid tinsel]

snipers are easy to fly to and kill imo

from my perspective they are really just a small annoyance with small impacts on gameplay near objectives

[south stump]

IMO, snipers are fine

Most of the time the objective is well covered

[gray jetty]

Oki found worst opponents

[spiral pilot]

Agreed your hitboxes require a unique approach to balance.

[gray jetty]

Than the pro movement

[south stump]

But the problem is walking in between points that is annoying

[mystic forum]

Especially those peasants who shoot at you

[spiral pilot]

Indeed, from your perspective. But Dev must decided is balance is top priority or fun. Arcade vs Mil sim

[surreal thistle]

Guys, trails are fine. All of your complaints about getting "immediately killed" are pretty disingenuous. Sub 200m sniping isn't ruined.
#1184004829325053994 message

[tacit jacinth]

No trail needs tweaking. I tend to get the most kills by moving ocassionaly and then turtling.

Sometime I'll hold a spot like a crane till I die.

[spiral pilot]

No data to back you up, it is an opinion.

[surreal thistle]

Maybe stop laying in the same spot for 15 minutes

Look at my video and come back

[thick kernel]

I FORGET TO REVERT THE HEADSIZE, I WAS LIKE WTF

[surreal thistle]

Say something with actual substance

[gray jetty]

@thick kernel dont you think your opinions are being based on invasion? Snipers are an issue only on that mode and thats not even their fault its maps

[spiral pilot]

Also single case. One drop does not the rain make.

[surreal thistle]

Holy crap dude I posted like 4 videos

[gray jetty]

And ofc shooting from the redzone

Snipers were not and still arent an issue in conquest

[surreal thistle]

Like what are you guys talking about. Who is blowing you guys up the moment you shoot

Post videos like I am.

Y'all are saying all this bs without anything to actually back it up

[blissful gazelle]

I think it would be cool if Oki turned the glint, trail, and sound changes into a way to distinguish the different snipers in the game, as they are all pretty much the same right now. It would be cool to see some snipers suited for 'cqc' sniping, medium range stealth sniping, and long range sniping.

[gray jetty]

Yea that could be a thing

[spiral pilot]

Holy crap dude, 4 videos of a single player isn't representative still!!

[gray jetty]

Like trail on m200 but no on the l96

[surreal thistle]

You still don't have an argument lmao

[sudden sparrow]

the trail was intended for for L96, its the premier medium range sniper

[spiral pilot]

I do. I don't have data. That is the argument. An objective decision can't be made. Not on your videos, not on my text walls.

[gray jetty]

People only play m200 doesnt matter

[blissful gazelle]

I'd like to see how Oki plays sniper to see what playstyle he is balancing around. Because I really doubt he expects snipers to be stealthy at all.

[spiral pilot]

Small dev team, big bias.

[surreal thistle]

So what's your point? If you're saying you have nothing to prove your point then what's the point of talking? Sounds like you're whining.

[gray jetty]

Snipers are very unhealthy for the game If oki is focused on teamplay tbh

Snipers are useless

No, being 20/1 doesnt count as teamplay

[blissful gazelle]

Snipers are about as useful for the team as anyone else who focuses on solo play

[slow hull]

I played recon specifically to counter the aderall hyper smg medic players (which are the only class you see in competitive bbr) and yet there so many unecessary nerfs

[blissful gazelle]

10-30 for most snipers

[torpid tinsel]

wb 100-0 🥺

[sudden sparrow]

stand 100m back, kill anyone who approaches, be a spawn beacon, works fine

[gray jetty]

Thats the funniest part they are negative yet still not switching weapons dragging their team down

[mystic forum]

Until it doesn't. Better sit with DMR at those ranges. Just saying

[spiral pilot]

As in the post, the devs must gather data. My opinion is this change of bullet trail is very detrimental, but it stops there. I want to work with you in a way that make fun plays feel fair for most of the player base. This will need data and feedback. Both make the goat.

[gray jetty]

Snipers are só Far from combat you dont even spawn at them lol

[sudden sparrow]

it works fine, dmr is sometimes better. If you cycle between 4x and canted 1x you never get spotted with glint and the trails dont matter that much at that range

[south stump]

I sometimes snipe just to chill for a bit

[mystic forum]

Not anymore! It's all clown fiesta after med scope glint

[gray jetty]

Imo, just remove trail and cap the amount of snipers like 10-15% of the team so I dont autólose a match because them

[torpid tinsel]

ok, so use irons

[south stump]

yeh yeh, ikik

[torpid tinsel]

ez dub

[south stump]

irons with binos

[torpid tinsel]

!!

[south stump]

at least binos dont have glint

[gray jetty]

Med scopes were broken

[spiral pilot]

Limiting classes per team might be a great idea.

[gray jetty]

Better than leaving a class bad to play imo

[mystic forum]

Oki give Sniper rifles a damage boost to oneshot bodyshot if there's no scope in them

[torpid tinsel]

3/4 per class per squad

[gray jetty]

Snipers shouldnt be 30-40% of a team in frontline or invasion

Like what they even do

Shot

Shit

[sudden sparrow]

they aren't

[gray jetty]

I beg to differ

[spiral pilot]

To me that sounds bloody brilliant. Forced the player base to diversify without limiting gameplay style

[sudden sparrow]

lol i've raged at my team having too many sniper and then went ahead and counted them, they're not 30% of the team, dream on

[south stump]

there really arnt that many snipers in each game tho.

[spiral pilot]

Then we can do a metric

How many snipers per team make the other classes feel oppressed by sniper fire

[gray jetty]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1179862644597989386/1183470512920346634/image.png?ex=658873ce&is=6575fece&hm=666ffca1ab23f68ef87365db0ddae1e555f9ca0faf21e87fcef3032326f7f278&

[spiral pilot]

Is there a critical mass?

[gray jetty]

You sure?

[torpid tinsel]

lmfao

[spiral pilot]

One screenshot is irrelevant

Show me 500 and let's work out the data

[gray jetty]

Thats every invasion game brother

[spiral pilot]

Hearsay

[torpid tinsel]

ok I’ll bombard you with 20 when I get home

[gray jetty]

Not sure you played it

[spiral pilot]

Give me the data

[sudden sparrow]

damn, cherry pickign a single example, never seen that before

[gray jetty]

Huuuh Ive got more at home

[torpid tinsel]

The internet is fair, we would never do that

[gray jetty]

At Work currently

[torpid tinsel]

Cherry picking is reserved for irl activities only!

[sudden sparrow]

bro i can go into games and screen shot medics too

[gray jetty]

Snipers are a shitshow atm

Who even play médics

Update your game little bro

[torpid tinsel]

Nvm I don’t want to change my leaderboard settings

[gray jetty]

Snipers shouldnt be that big of population every game

[sudden sparrow]

wow look at my completely reasonable example

[mystic forum]

goofy

[sudden sparrow]

3/28, that's 30%

right?

[mystic forum]

ma man, can't even make a screenshot

[sudden sparrow]

that is a screen shot, i jsut turned on steam overlay so the scoreboard wouldn't close

[mystic forum]

try f12, just saying. As easy as that

[torpid tinsel]

10%

[surreal thistle]

Use printscreen

[spiral pilot]

At any point, arguing doesn't help. Give me data. Give me player counts, classes, loudouts per kill, distances per kill, score per minute and win rates per class, weapon and loadout

And let us work it out

[sudden sparrow]

its faster to use snippet

[woven sandal]

Win shift s

[coarse tusk]

absolute poetry

[tacit jacinth]

This is a recon sample from pre patch, imagine if they tossed a smoke at me. I don't hit every shot. The idea that snipers are useless is wrong.

[gray jetty]

They are

[sudden sparrow]

then if they don't impact you, theres nothing to complain about

[tacit jacinth]

They missed and smokes are buffed now.

[mystic forum]

Some maps like valley or sandy sunset has about 20-40% population being recon. Who knows, what gun they run.
Some maps like tensatown or isle have about 0-10% population of recon

[gray jetty]

They impact by being useless

[torpid tinsel]

Useless no
Outclassed in terms of objective play yes

[sudden sparrow]

yea im aware, i was responding to micheal who cherry picked a screen shot about there being too many snipers

[gray jetty]

If I press tab and see a lot of snipers I know I'll lose

[mystic forum]

Bipod on a sniper. Heresy

[gray jetty]

Man ends the match with 20k point and he thinks damn I did a good job

[sudden sparrow]

then change teams

[gray jetty]

[sudden sparrow]

'people should only play the game the way i play it'

wild

[torpid tinsel]

Idk how much I help my team when I go 100-0 but damn it feels nice to get clean 100kd games

[mystic forum]

You find yourself the only one who pushing the point

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant. Did you wanted to have fun of win the game? Answer that to yourself.

[gray jetty]

Not my point, snipers should be Far from the battle Just not as popular

[sudden sparrow]

why shouldn't something be popular?

[torpid tinsel]

Winning the game =\ not same type of fun as getting high kill games

[gray jetty]

[sudden sparrow]

play csgo if you want competitive shooters

[gray jetty]

Use your brain on that one

[mystic forum]

Yep, agree. But they punished for that. Glint you know

[torpid tinsel]

I play this game cause it’s easy and fast paced and fun

not because it takes skill

some skill*

[gray jetty]

No, I get punished for snipers in my team

[spiral pilot]

Who are you to dictate this? Why tell me how to play. You don't get to tell me how. But I do get to make the decision if I play as optimal as possible with my chosen tools or not

[sudden sparrow]

then change teams

[gray jetty]

Trail and glint are useless

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant hearsay. Show me the data.

[torpid tinsel]

op seems to like to shun opinions that oppose his without data

[mystic forum]

Think like sniper. Be like sniper. Wouldn't be punished

[gray jetty]

How I about show you deez hub

[woven sandal]

Wanting snipers to be far is why they are useless

[mystic forum]

I mean he is not wrong. Snipers doesn't contribute much in point capture game

[spiral pilot]

You get to choose though.

[gray jetty]

No, thats their identity

Which is why I think they should have a Max players per team

[torpid tinsel]

Do I though?
I can go 150-10 on either side and either win or lose, I can’t single handedly choose my team to win or not

[spiral pilot]

Again, deciding to contribute to team play one way or another, or more or less, is a question for every player to themselves. Motivation to play objective needs to come down to each one of us, because we all value different rewards.

[sudden sparrow]

Newer players that get punished in a shooter like to play at a distance so they dont get fucked constantly, so you see a lot of bad players playing sniper. Shocking concept.

[spiral pilot]

You get to choose what is more valuable and fin to you. Winning the match of going 50-0. You get to choose.

[mystic forum]

Leftie talks right here. I don't agree

[sudden sparrow]

its a game

game is for fun

[mystic forum]

It's a team based game after all. If people do dumb or selfish staff - other people lose fun for no reason

That's how it works, just saying

[sudden sparrow]

your fun is not my responsibility

im not your mother

[woeful lantern]

your mother is responsible of your fun?

[mystic forum]

That's why we can have nice things

[sudden sparrow]

"everyone should play the way i want them too, because its fun for me"

[atomic pumice]

I take you back to the message I did on another threadt to give my opinion about the changes
#1182089669073186876 message

[gray jetty]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1182089669073186876/1182332253427204127/image.png?ex=65844fb7&is=6571dab7&hm=42f1d0dc3eb47da1be3b28da7cba5ddccde438ffc1caa2f3d62d74cfc7713659&

[atomic pumice]

TL;DR mid range glints was fine, trails are overkill, smoke grenade is your friend

[sudden sparrow]

if you're playing 32v32 and you have a bunch of snipers and it makes the game shit, i could understand, but whining about snipers in 127v127 is whack

[gray jetty]

Someone Tell them sniper is bad

[woeful lantern]

that's a nice 8v8 game screen you just took

[atomic pumice]

That's a squad screen I think

[mystic forum]

Smoke dissolve way too quick tho

[gray jetty]

[woeful lantern]

it's still just cherry picking

[spiral pilot]

Buff smoke, don't add bullet trails duh

[tacit jacinth]

The idea that "I'm not helping the team" by defending objectives is laughable.

[woeful lantern]

even more: give smoke to everyone in addition of their grenades

[sudden sparrow]

TRIX user, a cultured man

[spiral pilot]

I completely agree. And I'll one up you, give us 2 or 3 tactical slots depending on the vest, to customize every grenade we take.

[mystic forum]

You sure help to defend. You way less useful at attack side tho

[woeful lantern]

i have a shit ton of clips like that but people prefere to whine about the 3 brains dead people sitting in the back as it was 99% of their team

[sudden sparrow]

and its better on defense? wow, imagine that, some weapons are better in different situations, wild.

[mystic forum]

Imagine having half of the team choosing defend oriented class on invasion attack. BuT tHeY hAvInG fUn

Bruh

[sudden sparrow]

you gonna cherry pick screen shots too? do i need to go cherry pick some to counter your arguement?

or we just gonna pretend snipers are 50% of the team

[gray jetty]

They are too númerous for a "nerfed class" for sure

(wasnt even nerfs)

[spiral pilot]

Yeah, they are having fun. Change servers dude. No one is forcing you to play that specific game, that is anomalous to begin with

[mystic forum]

I like how highly pissed off are you. That was easy ngl

[idle bay]

[atomic pumice]

It's a hate boner at this point

[gray jetty]

A good Nerf would be actual bullet drop so people dont Just point and click

Class is easier than support to play

[sudden sparrow]

yea man, bring up politics for no reason, but im the triggered guy

snowflake lul

[woeful lantern]

according to people:

• sniper is super easy
• making 150 kill past 200m is super hard
• snipers doesn't help the team at all
• sniper have 100/0 K/D
• sniper are 30-40% of every team
• everybody hate sniper
  no contradiction at any point in this list

[gray jetty]

Snipers actually fragging more than 40 kills is a world record

Most are useless and not even get 30

[south stump]

perfection, 0 contradictions at all

[woeful lantern]

i have to agree, my best is like 37

[mystic forum]

@atomic pumice I made a joke about leftie talk far up the topic. Some ppl seems triggered a bit. Don't be confused

[atomic pumice]

ah alright

This is my best sniper game, REM700 and playing agrressively slightly behind the frontline on Azagor

[gray jetty]

[woeful lantern]

false, according to people you should be at 47-0

[atomic pumice]

I wish

[gray jetty]

Thats me after 5 min with any non sniper class

Specially on azagor

[sudden sparrow]

my dick is 10 inches, i swear

[mystic forum]

Looks like my game but with AUG. I make less kills on awerage with sniper, while dying a bit less too

[woeful lantern]

47 kill in 5 minutes, who do you think gonna trust you? at the end of a games best players have 100 kills at best

[gray jetty]

You sure about that

[atomic pumice]

Just need to check the scoreboard channel

[woeful lantern]

absolutely, you don't make 47 kill in the first 5 minutes

[gray jetty]

Its a hyperbole ofc, but I have a 261 kill game

[sudden sparrow]

i swear, 10 inches

[gray jetty]

[woeful lantern]

each game?

[mystic forum]

Maybe our guy is a c4 fairy, who knows

[gray jetty]

Not ALL, mostly I get 140-160

[sudden sparrow]

blocks out the sun sometimes

[woeful lantern]

let's say that's true, it mean you're a pretty good player and so: not representative of the mean... so how is it an arguments about how many kill should a sniper do?

[gray jetty]

Do you guys only play conquest or what those are rookie numbers on frontline

[woeful lantern]

well curently on EU server it's invasion or invasion in terms of game mode

[gray jetty]

My last match as sniper was 95/something

[sudden sparrow]

my dad works at nintendo

[gray jetty]

Not th best frag class but not as bad as you claim

[woeful lantern]

we get the joke

[gray jetty]

Yea dude some people are good at the game

[sudden sparrow]

im not joking, he works there

[gray jetty]

Crazy right

[woeful lantern]

if it's true that's impressive but can we get back to the point of the thread?

[sudden sparrow]

yea man, ill take your word for it, like your screen shot