Oki, you Silly Goose. The Camo Kill Requirements are way too high.

[fresh stump]

I can't handle two of them

[stray goblet]

[south flare]

why not

[fresh stump]

You know how you are

go read

scroll up

have the fight in your head

[stray goblet]

your arrival scared away everyone from the NA Squad 2 VC

[fresh stump]

Literally toxic

[south flare]

huh?

[fresh stump]

Not figurative

[stray goblet]

I like toxicity

[fresh stump]

You emit radioactivity

[south flare]

when where what

[south flare]

how am i toxic

[stray goblet]

they're gone, you killed em

they ran away out of fear

[south flare]

what did i dooo

[fresh stump]

You asking that like you don't know smh

[south flare]

i usually give my main points and back them up with something, someone starts whining back with bs, then i start the toxicity 😃

[stray goblet]

(for the record, I am too new to know Moukwa enough to actually claim anything with regard to their general behavior, I just saw people leave the LFG voice chat channel as soon as he started talking and it was funny to mention )

[fresh stump]

"Whining back with bs" smh

[fresh stump]

That's pretty much all you'd need to know yea

[stray goblet]

I like women

[south flare]

i mean i aint wrong with this, usually its something related to personal skill issues

[fresh stump]

He doesn't know smh

[stray goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-does-he-know-gif-26833694

[worldly swan]

We need to make mastery kills 25k, 50k and 100k

[stray goblet]

gorbino im going to kill you

25k times

[worldly swan]

I'd like to see you try

[fresh stump]

Let's see, names I immediately recognize but still argue with for no reason would be Mez, Moukwa, Slaz (we love to hate him), devildog or whatever, uuuuuuuuuuuh Okami, Chum (we love our boi chum)

[stray goblet]

how much do you bench

[south flare]

there are so many skins in the game rn so the "high" requirements are fine

something to grind for

[worldly swan]

450

[stray goblet]

I feel like there's hella few

[fresh stump]

https://tenor.com/view/ace-attorney-phoenix-wright-objection-capcom-gif-20965907

[stray goblet]

absolute bs

[south flare]

i dont do that anymore tho, used to do that a lot

[worldly swan]

your mom's weight

[fresh stump]

If you'd read the earlier autopsy report, you would know that the skins are mostly the same patterns repeated with different colors

[stray goblet]

you are far too weak

[fresh stump]

And it's mostly just filler

[stray goblet]

^just like your mom's weight @worldly swan

ayoooo

[worldly swan]

for 100k you are too weak

[stray goblet]

gottem

[fresh stump]

Like yes, there are like 500 skins, but cheetah print 6 times in a row doesn't count as content, I'm sorry

[south flare]

[fresh stump]

I've made suggestions to fix this as well, because I'm a genius obviously

[stray goblet]

they're also very ugly a lot of them

[fresh stump]

TLDR: Make patterns, colors, and materials separate unlocks. Let us mix and match how we please. You can also animate each category separately for fun.

Oh, and go vote up my ticket post (https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1181077130768040016)

[south flare]

custom skin creator

[fresh stump]

and my medal post: (https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1182086355078098996)

[south flare]

for support pack buyers

[fresh stump]

I would love that, but it should be for everyone

[stray goblet]

nah

[fresh stump]

Other peeps paid for the game too smh

[south flare]

eh they need to make money with something

[stray goblet]

35 dollars extra is fine

unironically

this game is worth it

[south flare]

and give more reasons to buy the pack

[fresh stump]

ok mr moneybags

I'm not asking for a custom skin creator btw, I'm asking for the current skin creation to be better

NOW, workshop skin support

that'd be sick

[stray goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-gif-7033291108620798788

[south flare]

i mean its kinda "unfair" that some skins are just basically not available for majority of the players

[fresh stump]

Twitch drops are stupid

I hate them

please just give us the skins

[south flare]

ask for a code lel

[fresh stump]

I'll pay $5 not to have to deal with having a muted stream open lol

OKI GRANT ME A CODE

Didn't work 😦

[south flare]

i dont see the average player getting 6000 kills with some gun

[fresh stump]

I posted my shitty stats earlier

I have a little over 6k total and like 140 hours in the game

[worldly swan]

twitch skins are horrid

[fresh stump]

The pp2k is my highest gun with 500 kills. Kind of crazy they want me to get 10k with one gun at a time

I'd accept 5

[south flare]

100 hours of gameplay with a gun to unlock the 6000 kill skins (for the average player)

[fresh stump]

100 hours is still insane yea. I think 40 hours is the highest it should take personally

and that's still for fucking ever

It's estimated to take about 70 hours per gun atm

[south flare]

huh

i thought the average kpm is 1

[stray goblet]

it is

[fresh stump]

That's from the OP saying it takes 3500 hours or so to unlock everything

[stray goblet]

well actually

[south flare]

so that means 100h

[stray goblet]

the average is much lower

[fresh stump]

I'm slow af

[south flare]

and you have to minus all the grenade and secondary kills

[fresh stump]

I'll post my garbo stats again, I'm not afraid

one sec

[stray goblet]

if this game is anything like BF4 or 3, it should be approximately .66 per min

[south flare]

so realistically its closer to 120 hours of using x gun

[south flare]

iirc its 1.1

[fresh stump]

YOU SEE THIS

THIS IS WHAT ABOVE AVERAGE LOOKS LIKE

MILDLY ABOVE AVERAGE

In all seriousness, I'm no where close to 10k on anything lol

[south flare]

avg kd 1.06
median kd 0.88
avg kpm 1.36
median kpm 1.17

[fresh stump]

I don't even have 10k total, I'm very casual playing this game. I blow myself up for fun

[south flare]

[fresh stump]

oh and last bit for the below average player

I've been playing since EA launch, so I feel like my stats are semi what someone who really casually plays would be like

Realistically, I'm never getting a gold skin 😂

[south flare]

and now that the game is encouraging you to ptfo/ support players....

[fresh stump]

I do ptfo I'll have you know

My w/l is 1

[south flare]

people are progressing even slower on the skins

[fresh stump]

mhmm

[stray goblet]

yep

[fresh stump]

We made a lot of compelling points, opened our hearts with our guiding key, found kingdom hearts, etc., all throughout this thread. Give the novel a read sometime

[stray goblet]

do not read anything, blame @south flare for everything and complain that the devs suck

#thuglife

[south flare]

one thing that could work is "get x amount of xp while using this gun to unlock x skin"

[stray goblet]

that or maybe damage done?

[south flare]

damage done is basically the same as kills

unless its a lower dumber

[fresh stump]

well, we mentioned something similar earlier

change kills for gun unlocks to gun XP. As long as you have it equipped you get xp for said guns (would fix pistols too). You get more XP for kills with the gun

Then you get rewarded for playing. You can earn more gun XP with OBJs too

[south flare]

maybe they shouldnt count in the top players when thinking about skins

i mean they are just skins

[fresh stump]

They're fun rewards to keep people playing, but the context of the skin screen matters psychologically for players. I mentioned this earlier, but if I just started a game and I see a wall of skins and it takes 500 hours to get them all for ONE gun, I'm just not going to bother at all. I'll feel really demotivated to do it

Nonsense MarsanX

you're a top 100 in my heart

[south flare]

yea that is true, but more harm from not giving skins than giving them

[stray goblet]

that IS true

[south flare]

????

[stray goblet]

You made a discord account to say this?

[worldly swan]

skins don't keep players engaged for long term

[south flare]

that is true aswell

[stray goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/mpreg-this-man-horse-react-him-horse-react-mpreg-react-male-pregnancy-gif-2323501253009278485

[fresh stump]

As certified stupid, skins do keep me engaged when done properly

I like drip, that's just how I am

[stray goblet]

Go back on your main discord account you petulent child

making alts just to talk shit

[worldly swan]

Valorant mindset

[stray goblet]

bullfuckingshit

[worldly swan]

based

[fresh stump]

More like old game mindset. Halo gave out plenty of stuff in reach lol. Cod gave out skins faster than this game ever did apparently

[stray goblet]

real gamers use skype

#skypegayming

[fresh stump]

p much

[zinc pewter]

It’s like prestige 1, 2 skins whatever right that’s grindable but a prestige 5 or a 5000 kill skin or whatever to the average player is pretty much not even something they’ll have in mind just from how unfeasible it is to them

[stray goblet]

So far we got:

"Game is dying." "real gamers need to make the decisions," and "NA shitstain"

*feasible

[fresh stump]

Completely true, but at least you know you could get there by just playing naturally. I think one of the issues (for me at least) with 10k is that you have to play with just that gun and get kills with only that gun if you want to make reasonable progress atm.

[zinc pewter]

I’m sure the average rank 70 player shares your sentiment

[stray goblet]

A german calling others shitstains

[fresh stump]

EU, checks out

[worldly swan]

average rank 70 player nowdays has barely played vs the exp update..

[stray goblet]

amazing

nah

BF4 had a different system, same with 3 and others

[zinc pewter]

The median player level probably isn’t even prestige 1 so I’d doubt they’d be like oh yeah I’m gonna go reset everything another 5 times so I can get a singular skin I want

[fresh stump]

I think that would be nice too. I've mentioned the medals system (https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1182086355078098996) which would provide multiple goals and ways for players to express their dedication to the game. You could put skins behind that system like Gears 3 did as well (I'll add that in to the post).

[stray goblet]

^

[worldly swan]

when I prestiged it took me a week to hit level 90

it isnt hard to level up now

[zinc pewter]

Want to be a billionaire? Just make money

[fresh stump]

Aight, I'ma let these two boys stink up the room.

[worldly swan]

money isnt hard to make so I dont see your point?

[stray goblet]

"The game is dying, lets make changes that "REAL gamers" want..." which apparently are people with 9 thousand kills on a pickaxe

[worldly swan]

adapt and overcome

[stray goblet]

I get that you're mentally ill Bartolos, but have you thought of using your brain before opening your mouth?

That's because you're blind

[worldly swan]

real gameplay suggestion, remove all armor

then I'll hit 10k kills with my guns

[stray goblet]

if you had looked at the discussion in this very thread, you'd have seen that we were all engaged in doing just that

unfortunately you are a "REAL gamer" and thus apparently inacapable of higher brain functions

I want to see you get out of bed in the morning without shitstains on the covers

[worldly swan]

he's just a lolcow making personal attacks to get attention

[dense junco]

[stray goblet]

You mean disagree entirely?

regularly?

that's piggybacking to you?

reading someone's idea and going "i disagree here's why" is me not bringing different ideas to the table

you're so intelligent

who is "we"

I wasnt aware that Gorbino held this opinion of me

[worldly swan]

I'm iffy on both sides, originally voted yes to this poll

[dense junco]

have y'all considered that this only clogs the thread and solves nothing? all of you look like dorks rn

take it to dms

nobody wants to hear it nor cares

[worldly swan]

but @main mountain's posts have made me consider and think that 10k mastery has its merits

[stray goblet]

So did I, and I was talking about the thread before Bartolos came in as a "real gamer"

[stray goblet]

now I dont know what to think

he's obviously very intelligent and thinks through his ideas so

[worldly swan]

xitter user posting opinion:

[worldly swan]

You've got some pent up issues man go solve them

I'm changing my reaction from ✅ to ❌

[stray goblet]

what are these issues and what do they have to do with camo kill requirements

[fresh stump]

Why you gotta do me like that 💀

[worldly swan]

you shitting up this suggestion

[stray goblet]

how did I shit it up exactly

[worldly swan]

by breathing

it smells in here now

[fresh stump]

Duke, you're getting flamed/trolled bruv lmao

[stray goblet]

see I dont think I talked about breathing here

[worldly swan]

no need, I can hear it through your screen

[stray goblet]

Am I? Surely these two highly intelligent individuals are serious in their disagreements with me

I thought it was lower

[fresh stump]

I work slowly 😭 . Some games I just sit around in the back healing or ammo'ing people for fun.

[worldly swan]

and why would it be lower? other than suicide/environmental

[stray goblet]

Dont you have to close down another nuclear power plant and open another coal mine

[fresh stump]

I also have been playing a lot of smaller player pop modes, less invasion and such. I could probably farm my KPM up a bit if I tried, but I'm just coping at this point

[stray goblet]

Taking longer than a minute to kill a person?

thats what KPM means

[worldly swan]

ah I thought it was k/d

[stray goblet]

if you're sitting at the back of the map and sniping, which I see a lot of people doing, and you're bad at it, I'd imagine that'd lower your kpm

[worldly swan]

agreed

[stray goblet]

IIRC both KDA and KPM in bf4 on average were around 0.6-0.7

if this game is roughly the same, I'd imagine that to be analogous

@fathom compass is there a stats page for all players somewhere

not saying you're wrong, just genuinely curious

ahh

I'd think its less than that as the average person goes negative far more than positive from what I've seen, but I dont really have a reason to argue a great deal about it

I think thats a great idea

rewarding you for playing your class is good

[fresh stump]

I don't mind class specific challenges/rewards either. I think it's good to reward people for playing the classes and in the ways they like to play

My medal system post is basically asking for that exact thing actually

[stray goblet]

I mean my comment was in regards to both of them, but yeah I'd argue that specifically for KPM it'd be the same

[fresh stump]

Which is why I keep pushing it

[stray goblet]

most people dont really hit anything when they shoot so I'd imagine it'd lower their KPM by a significant amount

plus there's stretches in time when moving between points and the like where you dont shoot and are just running

[fresh stump]

how dare you

I hit some things sometimes

[stray goblet]

950 shots per minute

I am the worst at hitting anything

I make up for it with volume of fire

[near onyx]

Me waking up to see over 700 more replys over night

[wide topaz]

I just want the guns to be based on the average kills for players, then with the guns individually, at the very least the math should be done to find realistic numbers that won't take casual players a month to earn for single weapon.

Proper statistic stuff

[near onyx]

I've been copying and saving some good arguments (mainly from the legend @fresh stump) just so they don't get lost to time

I still have some more to check up reading 🙃

[near onyx]

Funny enough that number was from calculating my own stats, which is a 2.3kpm 3.8kd, 3600spm, @ 260 hours. It would be muuuuuch worst for the average player 😞

And that doesn't take for account them adding more weapons 😭

[fresh stump]

I posted my garbage stats no worries

so there is comparioson lol

[near onyx]

That's the sad part about all this, admittedly I play this game A LOT and it STILL would take that long for me is saying something

~~I think currently the best player Robo cat has like 100k kills at 1000 hours and he only has like 5 or so masteries😂 ~~

Oki save us

[ashen dagger]

Robo has like 320k kills what are you talking about

[near onyx]

Holy moly guess I miss read them blurry ahh streams

[ashen dagger]

And the fact that even the most kills in the world player can still grind for things in this game is GOOD

[stray goblet]

brain rot

[near onyx]

😎👎

[ashen dagger]

Oh well if you put it that way

[near onyx]

10k kills almost makes it seems like the devs just looked at robocat and tried balancing around him. Literally the worst thing you can do is set the set the bar around someone who literally streams this game like 16 hours a day

[ashen dagger]

The bar for the hardest skin to unlock in the game…

[wide topaz]

its not hard

there is no skill

its just time and time alone

which is why it sucks

[ashen dagger]

How do you propose we lock skins behind skill instead of time?

[wide topaz]

time would be fine if it wasn't a month plus per gun with only that weapon

10k kills would normally be account kills or class kills

not a weapon requirment

and I keep mentioning time because you keep saying "its supposed to be hard"

[ashen dagger]

So you didnt mean this?

[wide topaz]

if you pull out the one line, sure

[stray goblet]

me when i strawman the argument

[wide topaz]

but I am obviously talking about the time sink of 10k kills per gun

[ashen dagger]

I dont mean to pull out the one line, that was the meaning i interpreted from your post so im just making sure i have it wrong

[wide topaz]

time for unlocks is not a bad thing

[ashen dagger]

Can you explain how asking for clarification is a strawman please?

[wide topaz]

but when the best players would have to play better than they do and earn more kill than they do per hour to get a sub 60 hour commitment to a single weapon, there's a problem

[ashen dagger]

Nah

[stray goblet]

I have yet to see someone argue that we dont want things to work toward or that the skins should be given away, so arguing that Devil is saying so is a strawman

[ashen dagger]

Im curious, would you be oki with moving the current masteries down and adding a 10k diamond skin?

[stray goblet]

also this isnt "asking for clarification"

[stray goblet]

who is this directed to

[wide topaz]

not really, because again 10k is the problem for the weapons

I could stomach it if it was for less weapons, but I wouldn't like it

[ashen dagger]

I dont understand why you want to take away a grind for me so that you can have access to the skin easier. Why not just be happy with the silver skins? Is it like a completionism thing or?

[wide topaz]

my man

nobody wants the skins to be given away

we don't want them for 2k or something

we just want them to be obtainable for anyone but the people with 12+ hours of free time a day

[stray goblet]

10K is too large a number for some. Thats it, thats the majority of people here's argument

[ashen dagger]

Well you want to make them easier to get. I like how hard they are to get. If you succeed in making them easier to get that will take away a large aspect of the skin update that I really really liked.

[stray goblet]

either add more and lower the regular skins, or lower the mastery skins too

[wide topaz]

you keep saying easier

like it means something here

its not hard

[ashen dagger]

Is it not easier to get a 5k skin vs a 10k skin?

[near onyx]

Yeah I brought this up before when dude was calling everyone that disagrees with an 100 grind "salty".. man is just here to troll

[wide topaz]

if you wanna be loose with definitions and context? yes

[wide topaz]

but guess what

its still just kills

[ashen dagger]

Lets be loose with them, I dont think splitting hairs about the definition of hard or easy is important.

[wide topaz]

the only thing that changes is how much time you sink into a game

time sink

[stray goblet]

have you considered, that the issue is that between 5 and 10 there are a lot of numbers

[wide topaz]

is not difficulty

[ashen dagger]

Yeah exactly, this is what im referring to when i say hard and easy

[wide topaz]

thats not a change of difficulty bud

[ashen dagger]

if you dont like that I could use another word, but i really dont think thats necessary

[stray goblet]

you're recontextualizing the argument to be about how the weapon skins require skill to acquire

which is false

a better skilled player will do it faster than a worse player

and both will be left in the dust by someone who plays every day 8 hours for instance

they are not a measure of skill, they are a measure of dedication, which even that reason you admit is moot as the longer you play you will eventually get those kills in theory

our issue is that that "eventuality" should arrive before the heatdeath of the universe

10k, for the stuff provided, is absolutely not worth it

the costs should be lowered, and/or something should replace the skins

[surreal minnow]

10k kills is what it is and i dont think it needs time to be put into it when we have bigger issues

[wide topaz]

its funny how 10k is usually relegated to be an achievement for a class or an account, but here he's trying to say "each gun needs it!"

[stray goblet]

me when the "mastery" skin for a singular firearm requires more effort and time than getting to level 60 in WoW hardcore

or ranking a character to 80 in GuildWars

or completing every single quest in warframe

or getting to approximately Gen 5-7 in Titanfall 2

[ashen dagger]

Why is getting a SINGLE gold gun not an achievement?

Again i dont think this is supposed to be a completionism thing.

[stray goblet]

again I dont think you understand our argument, and I'm beginning to think you're actively attempting not to

[wide topaz]

the grind for single gun is more than entire games dude

[stray goblet]

who said here that we dont want it to be an achievement

the scope of the achievement is the issue most people from what I've seen have

[wide topaz]

taking an average of what the players earn, and what the guns earn, could easily allow that mastery skin to be put somewhere attainable within the next few months for people without much free time

[ashen dagger]

I like that. Other games hand stuff to you for free, which I really really hate.

[wide topaz]

for free he says

[stray goblet]

What games do you play

genuinely curious

[wide topaz]

70 hours is for free

[stray goblet]

what things in those games do you have trouble with things being "given away" in?

[wide topaz]

3 days of gameplay is free for a single gun

[stray goblet]

At least let us know what so we understand where you're coming from

[wide topaz]

at 4.5 kills per min

[stray goblet]

your definition of "free" seems to be different to mine and I'd like to in the least attempt to understand why @ashen dagger

[ashen dagger]

Umm idk what you mean. I said other games give progression to you for free, not bbr. Other games have battlepasses that are specifically designed to give as much little stuff as they can to keep you interested in “progression” which i really dont like.

[fresh stump]

I think my main point is that getting stuff should be fun, like the process of it. 70+ hours to get one skin isn't fun.

Battlepasses are just level up systems that you pay for

[near onyx]

That's literally robo cats kpm 😭😭 we all have no chance

[proven birch]

then just play better

[fresh stump]

That's a strange thing not to like. I thought what you meant was more so you don't like just getting stuff for leveling up and playing, you prefer to get stuff through "challenge" or "earning"

[ashen dagger]

I dont think that’s the point of the skins. Some people like the grind and find it fun in and of itself (me), and others dont. Thats perfectly fine, if you dont like the grind you dont have to do it, just dont expect to get the same rewards as the people who do like it.

[fresh stump]

Idk man, I've voiced multiple different reasons why I don't think it's a problem to reduce to 5k. It really doesn't affect anyone negatively, let's be honest here

[wide topaz]

we don't need the skins to be handed to us bud

why can't you understand that?

[fresh stump]

Like, 5k is still 30-50 hours

So it's still something you earn, still you're not getting skins taken away, and it becomes much more fesable for everyone and respects people's time better. It also makes people like me actually want to go after them because they seem actually obtainable and not stupidly ridiculous to get

[wide topaz]

we are actively trying to find a way to make it possible to earn skins for more people while keeping the grind. making less meta weapons, or slower killing weapons not take months of frustration to earn

[ashen dagger]

It effects me negatively because I enjoy grinds in games I enjoy playing. What youre basically saying is that someone who enjoys grinding like me shouldnt be rewarded for that because there are other people who dont, and they will feel like they’re missing out.

[rotund snow]

[ashen dagger]

Cool, if you think that is a good number you can grind for the silver skins.

Thats not enough for me personally, and i would like for that grind to not be taken away

[zinc pewter]

It’s crazy how some people can’t understand that just because they can spend 70 hours a week playing a game doesn’t mean it’s somehow now the norm and the game should conform to their needs alone

[ashen dagger]

I never said its the norm bud, please read up.

[rotund snow]

gold skins are not supposed to be the norm.

that is why they are called mastery skins

[wide topaz]

3 days of playing minimum with fucking robocats Kpm? 3 days of gameplay I should say, with no breaks

you think thats gonna work for every gun?

[rotund snow]

Never did I say it should be the same for every gun and indeed I have voiced that it should not be multiple times.

[ashen dagger]

In fact its this mindset that i am arguing against. Casual gamers want everything given to them without having any grind whatsoever because its boring, which is fine, but taking away from what i like to cater to that is infuriating.

[proven birch]

just play better

[zinc pewter]

I never said the mastery skin should be the norm, but spending that much time on a game with top 0.01% KPM isn’t the norm either

[wide topaz]

bud you aren't robocat

not everyone has nothing to do in their life like you seem too

[ashen dagger]

Also the game is not “conforming to their needs alone” the game is providing a COMPLETELY OPTIONAL grind for the people who want to do it.

[zinc pewter]

Nobody has argued that mastery skins shouldn’t require dedication and a bit of a grind but 10k kills is way excessive

[ashen dagger]

Says you.

[wide topaz]

there is a massive difference between, hey only the top players can get this while doing nothing but playing this game for days on end, and hey here's a gold skin for 500 kills

[rotund snow]

why should there not be a skin for such a big milestone

500 kills would mean almost everyone had gold skins, that would be crazy

[wide topaz]

no shit, that's my point. that's what "free" would be

[ashen dagger]

True. Should there just not be any rewards beyond 5k because of your completionist mindset or something?

[wide topaz]

just actively trolling at this point

[ashen dagger]

Should prestige 10 be removed because its too much if a grind?

[wide topaz]

honestly what did I expect from him

[rotund snow]

His question seems sensible, not that it's one that hasn't been asked a hundred times here already

[wide topaz]

prestige 10 is an account milestone

meaning you can do literally anything in the game

[fresh stump]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Reducing the grind doesn't not reward you, that's ridiculous

[rotund snow]

you can do literally anything in the game other than pacifism and you'll eventually get the mastery skins

[ashen dagger]

Regardless I could still apply pretty much every argument you’ve used here to p10…

[fresh stump]

Reducing the grind does not take away from you grinding to 5k

[wide topaz]

10k kills is not using vehicles, not using throwables, not using gadgets, not using other weapons.

[rotund snow]

it "not rewards you" when you don't get anything from it.

[wide topaz]

there is a massive difference between the two

[ashen dagger]

It takes away from the grind. In fact it takes away 5k kills from the grind to be exact.

[rotund snow]

No it isn't.

[wide topaz]

yes it is lol

[rotund snow]

That's only if you dedicated your life to gold skins

[wide topaz]

for one gun

at robocats Kpm of 4.5

that is 3 full days of playing

[rotund snow]

From those people who have gold skins... none of them were just using one gun and nothing else at all the entire time

[ashen dagger]

Robo has 5kpm now actually

[wide topaz]

not including breaks for sleep, food or even loadtimes

[rotund snow]

this is ridiculous

[zinc pewter]

Even if it were to be reduced to 5k kills for the skin why’s that an issue if you want to grind to 10k in the first place

Just grind the extra 5k then

[rotund snow]

you could be a very casual player who plays the game an hour a day and would eventually get the golden skins

[wide topaz]

yeah, in 4 months at the average kpm

for a single gun

[rotund snow]

and so what

it's a very high end reward

[wide topaz]

High end? lol

[ashen dagger]

Solar can you please stop being based, im running out of badgers to react with

[wide topaz]

10k is supposed to be a big milestone

[fresh stump]

It takes away from the grind, but you're essentially saying the opposite. You want to make everyone else's game experience LESS fun just to make yours MORE fun

[wide topaz]

with this you get a single skin

[fresh stump]

There's still A grind though

it's not like it's completely gone

[rotund snow]

so... what would you have additionally as the reward

[south flare]

🍿

[wide topaz]

so even if robocat at 5 kpm, thats still 35-40 hours with no breaks to get a single skin

[ashen dagger]

The game is already this way and I dont have any problem with introducing more skins between the masteries. How in the world does this take away from anyone else’s fun???

[fresh stump]

As it currently is ISN'T fun for a lot of people (162 voted for this)

[ashen dagger]

So? They dont have to do it…

[fresh stump]

So you're saying to keep it NOT fun and NOT enjoyable for those people, but keep it the same for you and everyone else who wants it at 10k

You don't have to do it either????

[ashen dagger]

Also this post is about skins in general, not just masteries.

[rotund snow]

Would mastery unlocking a bunch of shiny colours or something rather than just one fix it? I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting

[fresh stump]

Reducing the grind makes it more fun for more people

This post is about camo kill requirements as a whole and completion

So this is relevant

[ashen dagger]

Reducing the grind forces me to grind less… There’s nothing i can do about that.

[rotund snow]

why would the existence of a higher goal make the game "NOT fun and NOT enjoyable"

[ashen dagger]

Unless you want me to grind to 10k kills for nothingas a self imposed thing, but thats stupid i think we can all agree

[fresh stump]

It's not the existance of a higher goal, it's the PROCESS of getting to that goal that sucks for a lot of people

[ashen dagger]

THEN. DONT. DO. IT.

Its thats simple

[fresh stump]

THEN DON'T PLAY THE GAME

[rotund snow]

the process of getting to that goal is playing the game. If that sucks I suggest they play something else

[fresh stump]

I can say that about anything in this game

Don't use a gun if you don't like it

it's ok if it's dogshit

[ashen dagger]

Youre the one who wants the game to be changed…

[fresh stump]

don't use a gadget if it's bad

it's aok if something is OP, just don't use it

nothing has to change to be better

Or, at least better for more people

[wide topaz]

there is you and one other dude who are dumb enough to want to keep the system as is

bit outvoted there bud

[ashen dagger]

I need to know that you understand this isnt analogous whatsoever

[rotund snow]

mate this is a subjective argument. Insulting people over it is just weird

[ashen dagger]

What is this the fifth time you’ve called me stupid now?

[fresh stump]

I need you to understand that saying "don't do it" isn't an argument either. I want the skins, I want to grind for them but the grind is TOO much

70+ hours is insane and that's based of the #1 KPM player

I believe

[ashen dagger]

The grind isnt too much for me. The mastery skins are there specifically for people who want to grind. Do you think there should be nothing beyond 5k kills as a reward?

[fresh stump]

I look at that grind, and I feel like I don't even want to bother with it giving me less goals to play for myself and less grinding to do for me

I actually do, to be frank. I think at some point you need to say "enough is enough" for rewards

[rotund snow]

...why? There is still a goal at 5k which is what you seem to be advocating for

[fresh stump]

Like, if there's no top, what's the point in getting ther

[ashen dagger]

Atleast youre consistent.

[rotund snow]

go for that if that's what you want

[fresh stump]

5k is fine

[rotund snow]

so... grind for that if you wish to grind?

[fresh stump]

I don't want to go HALFWAY I want to go ALL the way

[rotund snow]

are you the kind of person that gets every achievement on all their games

[wide topaz]

if he's actually got 5kpm, it would be 40 hours give or take

[ashen dagger]

Yeah so it is just a completionism thing

[fresh stump]

@wide topaz thx fam for correcting. still a lot though at that KPM.

[wide topaz]

yeah his old one was 4.5

which was the 60-70 range

[fresh stump]

It's not completionism, I want the skin because I like having drip. I just do, I like getting outfits, customization, etc to change out, mix and match, etc

it's a really fun part of games for me personally

I have multiple problems with the skin system currently

and the unlocking, what you unlock, etc

[wide topaz]

I bet as soon as chum gets one skin, he's gonna look at the next one and say "Fuck this"

[fresh stump]

I've mentioned this before, so TLDR again:

[ashen dagger]

This is completionism…

[fresh stump]

It's not satisfying to go halfway

LIke

[rotund snow]

but you want the hardest to get ones, to the point it messes up the rest of the game to you if you do not meet the criteria for having them?

[fresh stump]

idk how to explain this, does it feel good to complete half a game?

[wide topaz]

I like how he's saying he likes the grind

but people are advocating to do more grinding

[fresh stump]

Does it feel good to have half a meal

[wide topaz]

and he dislikes it

cause "completionism"

[ashen dagger]

Why not advocate for more skins then? Instead of eating into my enjoyment of the game. You would NOT be complaining if there werent mastery skins at all.

[fresh stump]

No no no

The skins currently are set up terribly

[wide topaz]

for 10k kills a gun?

we would lol

[rotund snow]

If this was a story game and you had to get the gold skin on every gun to complete it I'd agree with you, but you don't. It's just one of those achievements that's hard to get in case people want it.

[wide topaz]

at this point

[fresh stump]

TLDR: Skin unlocks should be separated into 3 main categories. Color, patterns, and materials that we can mix and match instead of just a color/pattern combo that we unlock

[wide topaz]

why argue with the two person minority here

[fresh stump]

There's so much skin bloat in the system right now

[ashen dagger]

Idk, but the fact that you use this analogy just tells me its completionism to you. Which is fine btw, nothing wrong with that at all. I just dont know why you guys have such trouble admitting it

[fresh stump]

There are some things that it's natural to want to go all the way with

[wide topaz]

stop hating people that like grinding bud

sorry you only want one gun

[fresh stump]

That's my point

it's not necessarily that I want to 100% a game

it's that I like to finish some things I do

I don't 100% get all skins in a single player game, or 100% most games, but if I want something I'll go for it if it seems both reasonable and fun

the grind currently is not reasonable or fun for most people

I say most due to the votes

But even if it wasn't I'd argue it doesn't take away from the fun of people who do enjoy the grind to make it a little more accessible, and instead put that grind on other things like challenges as well

[wide topaz]

put it in perspective

[fresh stump]

So for example, drop the kill count to 3-5k. Now it takes 20 hours to get the kills. Have some challenges along with that to supplement it and you'll work on both the kills AND the challenges at the same time

Now I look at the kill count and I'll say "oh shit, that's totally doable and seems like a fun grind"

[wide topaz]

in statistics whith this many people voting we have enough for an 85% certainty that what we voted for is what the playerbase supports

[fresh stump]

Right now I look at the grind and I'm like "that's fucking a lot" and I don't even bother, so I now feel like there's nothing for me to work towards in the game

Another example, prestige

I really wanted the jeans man

[wide topaz]

was that for prestiging before the change?

[rotund snow]

if it isn't reasonable to you then... don't go for it, as you said there
if you don't go for it then it is no longer relevant to you - which would make it an entirely neutral thing as it doesn't affect you.

BUT, you work towards this goal whether aware of it or not, and whether trying or not. So it will be relevant to you in future if you keep playing the game.
So, to however small a degree it should be a good thing?

That's my logic

[fresh stump]

so I grinded to get them because it seemed reasonable, now I've got the jeans and I'm satisfied.

[wide topaz]

small degree

its not a small degree lol

that's our point

[fresh stump]

You're not always working towards the skin goal though is the thing man. It IS relevent to me because I do WANT the skins

but it's just a long ass grind that makes me not want to even go for it, leading to me not playing the game as much frankly

[rotund snow]

In the context of my sentence this means the opposite of what I think you want it to mean

[fresh stump]

An example I gave earlier

tha may help

XP

remember EA launch?

It was a fucking grind to unlock any guns

people stopped playing because of it. You could argue they didn't HAVE to grind for the guns

But it's just another thing that stops someone from playing more of the game

[wide topaz]

eh whatever. but my point is that its not a small commitment to a single weapon

[ashen dagger]

Guns effect gameplay…

[wide topaz]

I switch up all the time

[fresh stump]

Irrelevant to your argument.

[wide topaz]

my favorite guns I take breaks from to switch it up

[fresh stump]

You're saying you don't have to go for it

you don't have to go for guns

you literally don't

[rotund snow]

and that's the completionist thing from me and the other guy's POV. Wanting the highest tier rewards as though deserved.

[wide topaz]

getting 10k kills is a massive requirement that even if I didn't take breaks it would takes days of gameplay to earn

[wide topaz]

as though deserved

[rotund snow]

mmhm

[fresh stump]

I just explained why reducing it is fine

oh sorry devil dog lol

my b

[wide topaz]

a time sink is not 'deserving" something

[ashen dagger]

I think its pretty clear guns and skins are disanalagous , I dont think I should have to explain why.

[wide topaz]

at that point

just simp to some only fans chick

[fresh stump]

Not for your argument and not to me

Skins are a motivator just like guns for me

[wide topaz]

I'm sure if you watch enough you "deserve" time with them

[south flare]

not #1

[fresh stump]

so for me, skins are a fantastic way to keep me playing

[wide topaz]

way above average then

[fresh stump]

thx fam. I have no idea who's #1 and such tbh

[rotund snow]

if the reward is for those who have sunk the most time in then, I think it must be? Can't exactly gatekeep weapon unlocks by skill unless some objective measure of skill exists

(it does not)

[fresh stump]

5k is still there for those who sunk in the most time?

it's just more resonable for everyone

[rotund snow]

and it is there right now already

[fresh stump]

Bruh

[wide topaz]

unless you want to play a single weapon

this sucks

because its going to take you even longer to do get anything

[ashen dagger]

Then you dont have what it takes.

[rotund snow]

why do you keep bringing it back to the single weapon thing. Why does that matter
Taking a long time to get something doesn't make it bad

[wide topaz]

time sinks are not "deserving" anything

there is a reason those are for account and class rewards

not guns

[rotund snow]

it is a video game. They are time sinks. To say people don't deserve a reward for getting to 10k is an odd concept imo.

[ashen dagger]

Obviously it is. I think we can all agree that it takes a certain mindset to be able to grind a single gun for 10k kills. I dont think its bad to reward that mindset.

[wide topaz]

because 3-4 days of gameplay for an extremely above average player for a weapon is a stupid thing to think is ok

and those are using meta weapons

[fresh stump]

I've explained my pov enough. I understand that you feel like it makes it more valuable and that "you don't have to go for it". But to me those are just dismissals of an actual issue with the game. Agree to disagree. I personally think reducing it to 5-6k does nothing but improve the experience for more people, and encourages MORE people to play by making rewards more obtainable while hurting no one tbh. It also will allow for skin unlocks to be less bloated and more quality by combining unlocks together into one as I mentioned earlier instead of unlocking the same pattern 6 times in a row.

[wide topaz]

good fucking luck if your favorite guns is weak or a pistol or anything else

[rotund snow]

why? why is it a stupid thing?

[wide topaz]

that would take months to years because you will not have that kpm

[fresh stump]

Let's be honest though guys

Oki ain't gonna lower it lmao

[south flare]

average players have almost no chance of getting some skins

[fresh stump]

If anything Oki would add more skins after

10k

[rotund snow]

good

[ashen dagger]

It just comes down to them not liking the playstyle it takes to actually get them.

[jade laurel]

Have you considered killing people faster?

[south flare]

eh not good imo

[rotund snow]

they are called mastery skins and most players are not masters

[south flare]

not talking about mastery

talking about the 6k kill ones

[rotund snow]

that's what this convo has been mostly about

[fresh stump]

The playstyle to get the kill rewards is to join a fast respawn invasion grind server and just killing all day lol

It's a fucking time sync, it's not a skill based thing bruh

It's just a grind

[ashen dagger]

I dont think most take issue with moving other skins down, but moving mastery skins down is very stupid, and just more catering to the lowest common denominator

[south flare]

grind those for a day and you have yourself 3k kills atleast

[rotund snow]

we have no objective measure of skill. If we did I would be fine with gatekeeping the skins behind that instead

[fresh stump]

You can get it faster by being better, but it's just a time sync grind is all I'm saying. @south flare pretty much yea

[south flare]

yea there should be a few mastery skins or similar

[ashen dagger]

I’ll ask this again, what do you want to do to gate skins behind skill rather than time?

[rotund snow]

but we do have a pretty good measure of experience

[fresh stump]

It encourages people to go grind in a server instead of playing the game.

[fresh stump]

Actually, people have made nice suggestions instead of kills

[ashen dagger]

Yeah thats what we’re arguing right now.

[south flare]

just make majority of the skins not so grindy

[fresh stump]

It's not just straight time, it's a very specific time gate. Killing. I like what someone suggested where we have gun XP instead

[wide topaz]

with this many votes, we can say with 80% certainty that the player base supports Sbeves original ideas.

[fresh stump]

Gun XP would go up based on having the gun equiped, getting kills, and earning score while using the gun in general. This would allow pistols to level up as well

The grind could be more natural, and you wouldn't necessarily have to go to a kill server to grind it out because only kills with that gun would contribute

[ashen dagger]

That doesnt make it a skill lock vs a time sink…

thats still just a time sink

[rotund snow]

wondering where that value came from

Not that I don't think they do, but that seems a weird thing to state

[fresh stump]

I have an issue with the kind of time sink

[wide topaz]

makes the time sink reasoable for anything not meta

[fresh stump]

I don't necessarily care that it's skill based

[wide topaz]

sample sizes bud

[near onyx]

You can use this exact same logic if it were at 5k kills. You can respect and grind, and respect players time, at the same time 😎👌

[fresh stump]

I was saying that the kill grind is NOT skill based it's just a time sink

[wide topaz]

statistics

[fresh stump]

The time sink can be made BETTER, which is the important bit

[rotund snow]

you can use it at any K kills. It is there to justify any K kill rewards

[fresh stump]

you could have it be 100k gun XP so the number is larger (big number go brrr), and have it take 30-40 hours casually, 20ish hours if you really tried to get the skin by playing well. Maybe like 10 in a grind server if you really wanted it

[ashen dagger]

No it doesnt. That would all depend on how the xp system works. If it made the time sink reasonable to you it would end up making the grind far easier than it currently is. This idea is just an obfuscated version of the change that you’ve been arguing for.

[fresh stump]

We want the grind easier yee

[wide topaz]

sure buddy

you are in the minority

you can screech that people have less time than you all you want

[ashen dagger]

Oh yeah? prove it.

[fresh stump]

This must be what MLK Jr. felt like lmao

[rotund snow]

if we assumed this post's votes were perfectly representative of the average player and that it was symmetrical then you could do that, but I don't think we should

[fresh stump]

Poor chum

[wide topaz]

that is how statistics work lol

[stray goblet]

Please dont use the term obfuscated if you dont know what it means

[fresh stump]

To be clear, no one's opinion is invalid here

except Mez's. I stand by that

[stray goblet]

My opinion is invalid because I love mez

[fresh stump]

That is true

your opinion is now bad

[stray goblet]

also I'm off to torch your couch Lostmixup

[ashen dagger]

Dont throw stones in a glass house

[rotund snow]

Applying accurate concepts of statistics to a poorly fitting sample would not make it valid

[wide topaz]

that's why you get a proper sample size

[rotund snow]

we don't have a representative sample

[stray goblet]

How is changing it to xp an obfuscation? We are pretty clear that our issue is with the time required to acquire the skin

[wide topaz]

the playerbase is large(small) enough that 200 players give 80% to 90% accuracy to the stat

[rotund snow]

we have discord users who check the suggestion threads

[fresh stump]

It's not necessarily obfuscation. The game still tells you what gets it and it'll speed it up.

It's a method of speeding it up that lets the grind still be a grind, but makes it more reasonable for everyone

Now look

it sounds like to me Chum

[ashen dagger]

It seems you werent paying attention to the conversation.

[fresh stump]

You might just wanna grind in a server for 60 hours for a skin

I don't want BBR to be runescape personally, but I get it

[stray goblet]

Sounds like you refusing to answer is an attempt to obfuscate you jumping the gun on accusing someone of obfuscation

[ashen dagger]

Im saying you are obfuscating your desire to make the grind smaller behind a new gun xp system that is supposed to make everyone happy, which in reality just makes the grind smaller.

[stray goblet]

HOW IS A CLEAR GOAL OBFUSCATION

[fresh stump]

I'm very confused why the grind HAS to be large

[stray goblet]

literally what the hell are you talking about

no one here has spoken in unclear language

[fresh stump]

He's saying that we're obfuscating OUR goal

[ashen dagger]

Ive explained this so many times man

[stray goblet]

yes

[fresh stump]

I've explained my side too man, but we're both stupid

[stray goblet]

this makes no sense

[fresh stump]

Aight guys

https://tenor.com/view/iwo-jima-americas-flag-usa-flag-raising-the-flag-soldiers-gif-15668401

It's jover

I'm tappin' out

[stray goblet]

"The grind sucks, maybe instead of kills we should choose exp"

[near onyx]

Our HERO 🫡

[stray goblet]

yes clearly this is the greatest attempt at obscuring the goal in history

[fresh stump]

Duke really might be Mez with a different hat on....

[heady dragon]

camo reqs are fine
sounds like a skill issue to me

[fresh stump]

I think Duke might actually just be Mez but he's on my side

[stray goblet]

you WILL lose your couch

[near onyx]

@fresh stump later when Im not working I got to edit this post and add some of your quotes to the OP.

[fresh stump]

https://tenor.com/view/megamind-gif-26941461

Ah yes, my head and ego grows larger

I wish discord had longer stuff for the OG post

I would prefer we represent Chum and friend's arguments as well

That way Oki can not read both of our points

[rotund snow]

(though, thinking about it, 80% seems absurdly low for a ratio like this with a decent sample size. Seems like the actual chance that the population is not in support of this concept (assuming a perfectly random sample of the playerbase) is about 2.18x10^-20 % :p)

[rotund snow]

it would be nice if this was done as standard practise for suggestion channels

[ashen dagger]

I dont know why youre taking this line of argument. The vote on this thread is irrelevant to the argument right now. The thread is about skins in general, not just masteries.

[wide topaz]

85% with a margin of error of 5%. which I used the highest peak I saw last few weeks of 12.6k(not including free weekend) and rounded to 13k. which means 200.7(201) as the proper size for that certainty. If 60 more people came in we could get it to 90% with a 5% margin of error.

[wide topaz]

hence the finding the stats of the average player, and kills with a weapon in an hour

oki finds that

he can make things that nerd can grind to, things more accessible for the normal skins, more rewards based on account and/or class

a blanket 10k is not good, nor fun especially for what it currently gives

if he can find the average he can figure out what kill counts are worth what rewards

you just ignore everything we say don't you?

my point is finding what people put into the gun, how often it kills allows oki to design rewards based around those averages

only in part

if it was just one gun that was super special, or a class skin unlock point for those weapons

it would be less problomatic

lIke I said, oki needs to reevaluate how many kills people put in/earn with the various weapons. then he can decided what he deems worth those kill points

[near onyx]

Yes, I believe "Kill requirements" should have an end, eventually.

Other unique challenges (then just kills) should take it's place after. Keeping the grind interesting for players after hitting mastery, then just simply getting more kills.. @fresh stump and even @terse fjord (although he doesn't fully agree) brought up some good points regarding other more engaging challenges.

[wide topaz]

basically, I want it based on how many kills people get with the weapon

this would be a better system overall

[near onyx]

If they were to just add more camos in the future and continue upping the kill requirements without adding any further complexity to camo unlocking, then that would be simply lazy and uninspiring. And definitely not respecting players time.

[wide topaz]

we want the system to be better and not just a blanket "here's a 10k or 5k kill amount for the next skin"

if oki thinks some things are worth that oh well, I can accept it if the others are made to be in line with how many kills they get on average.

[rotund snow]

Stating how likely it is that the true proportion lies within 5% of the ratio we have here seems pretty different to the likelihood that over 50% of them support Sbeve’s post (which is what you claimed and is a lot more certain)

Not that this really matters or is really relevant to the thread, it just seems a bit of an odd way to make the point

[wide topaz]

that's how stats work. with proper sample sizes taking into account the less random nature, more people means less chance for it to be wrong. 5% margin of error is standard for statistics.

[rotund snow]

Yes, I was just saying the meaning of what that application of statistics generated isn’t the same as what was initially proposed

I feel like I worded that badly but not sure how to make it better

[wide topaz]

I mean if we take the ratio we have here. 5 to 1 support Sbeves post.

[stray goblet]

ladies please

im havin sex

[woeful acorn]

[ashen dagger]

I feel like this argument is like saying “youtube shouldnt give out diamond play buttons because so few people will even get 50mil subs”

Its just so weird to me. I really dont get why its a problem.

[ashen dagger]

Why not both?

[wide topaz]

they are mutually exclusive

of course I think you missed the "blanket" in my statement

[ashen dagger]

No, you can have some skins that are unlocked with whatever new system you want and some that are unlocked with the current one

[wide topaz]

thats not something you can just have together

you are missing the "blanket" term my dude

fixing weapons to what they can do allows it to be easier to add things later down the line, yes at higher kill points if they deem it worth it

[ashen dagger]

Nobodies arguing that masteries shouldnt be roughly scaled with how well the weapon performs. Although I think most would say it should be separated by weapon type instead of by individual weapon performance.

[wide topaz]

I would prefer if he took data from player, class, then weapon

because even within classes there can be wildly different kill and use rates

its better to start with a average based system now than try to add it later when there is alot more bloat added
Player to find an upper limit of time, with the other two to find the best choice for each weapon. class wide some of the more meta weapons would skew results, meaning the individual weapon should also be done.

[woeful acorn]

Weapon bias go brrrrr

[deep dagger]

perhaps weapon mastery could be based on weapon type, i.e. pistols requiring a lot less (but still a lot) and primaries requiring more or less depending on their role

but i believe that at least for cqc/high feed potential guns such as mp7 and p90, the 10k kill requirement for gold is justified

right now the unlock and progression system as a whole is a giant troll

[wide topaz]

hence the average system I'm trying to talk about just above.

[woeful acorn]

[warm pagoda]

Im not sure I could ever get 300 kills an hour, even if I put in over 1000 hours in battlebit.

its a 'skill issue', true - but it also emphasizes the ridiculousness of the current requirements

[south flare]

300 kills an hour 💀

Thats like the top 0.1% of players

Top 0.01% even

Thats 5 kills a minute

Average is 1

Average amount of kills in 1h is ~60

[warm pagoda]

(if you havent already) you should make this a thread imo

[ashen dagger]

He brings up 300 kills per hour because i mentioned robo's kpm

[south flare]

He mentioned average

[ashen dagger]

Would you be okay with moving the current mastery skins down but adding another one at 10k?

[wide topaz]

stop trying dude

[ashen dagger]

Can you stop being mean? I'm trying to ask a good faith question.

[south flare]

Secondary masteries should be a lot less

[wide topaz]

yeah used it at a point to prove how long it would take to earn skins, turned out to that some people actually reached that. still puts a single gun at 40 hours.

[south flare]

Like 1/10th or 1/5th of the amount

[warm pagoda]

imo
that's still not a test of skill, or an engaging grind.

if you want to gate it by player skill, dont use simple kills.

if you want it to be a worthwhile grind, use something other than an arbitrarily high number of kills

[ashen dagger]

I disagree. I like the grind, if you lower it significantly (like to 5k or below) then it would be pretty trivial for me to achieve it.

I like that the gold skins are really hard to get, i like having that grind

[wide topaz]

oh well, you are very much the minority in this.

again sorry that people don't want to spend months grinding a game for a couple skins.

so please just stop with the "muh pride and acclomplishment"

[ashen dagger]

I think youre confusing "camo requirements are too high" with "mastery requirements are too high" again.

[wide topaz]

its just getting annoying because your argument is "i don't like this"

[ashen dagger]

and yours isnt?

as if any logic applies to this topic at all...

its all feelings bro

[wide topaz]

all right then

take your feelings that are in the minority

and stop trying to convinvce people to like a several month long grind

[ashen dagger]

I think youre confusing "camo requirements are too high" with "mastery requirements are too high" again.

[wide topaz]

buddy, the "mastery" skins are camos

stop strawmanning and nitpicking words

[ashen dagger]

I think youre confusing "camo requirements are too high" with "mastery requirements are too high" again.

[wide topaz]

and now he's spamming

don't engage him, he's just a troll

[ashen dagger]

People voted yes on this because of the p5 and 5k kill normal cammos, not because of the 3 mastery skins lmao

[wide topaz]

big assumption on your part lol

like I said, guys a long time troll

don't bother engaging him too much

[warm pagoda]

but if you are trying to generate player engagement, you should balance for a more attainable level of skill.

the argument most of us seem to be making is that it should be about giving a players something to grind for, and balancing for an extreme minority of players will generate less engagement with the broader playerbase

[ashen dagger]

Not really, i feel like i've seen atleast four people make that exact distinction in this thread

[ashen dagger]

So why not add more mastery skins instead of taking away from my grind that i like?

Its the best of both worlds

[warm pagoda]

anecdotal evidence from 4 people doesnt really give a great picture of the vote

[wide topaz]

he believe playing for months on end to get skins means you "deserve" that skin

he's really trying hard to disprove the fact that people do not agree with him

[warm pagoda]

because its about player psychology lol

players want to grind to completion, and if you just add more skins with arbitrarily high kill requirements, you will be messing with that completionism

[ashen dagger]

I agree its about completionism, but I dont think everything in the game should cater to that. I think it's okay for some skins to be extremely hard to get. Just look at most mmos, I'm sure pretty much every mmo has super difficult to grind for items that only a few players have the dedication to get. That doesnt ruin the casual experience, so I dont see why skins in bbr are any different.

[warm pagoda]

ok, but why this game?

the general balance of this game is extremely arcadey, why should this game be a game that doesnt cater to general completionism

[wide topaz]

ok "completion grind bad, my grind good" we get it

[ashen dagger]

Cause I like it how it is.

[warm pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/big-lebowski-gif-24334437

[ashen dagger]

Yeah thats what i said in this message #1180201643522932766 message

[warm pagoda]

good night, it's 3:00am, Im not gonna argue with you about why this game should/shouldnt cater to you specifically over a wider section of the playerbase

[ashen dagger]

Also, what about the playerbase that cant reach 5k kills? Arent they allowed to be completionists? What about the playerbase who cant reach 1k kills?

[wide topaz]

its fine, like one persons on his side.

[ashen dagger]

I can name two off the top of my head that are also on my side

So thats an L

[warm pagoda]

if you genuinely think
"because I personally like it the way it is"
will be a convincing argument, I suspect you probably dont have much sucess in other arguments either 🤷‍♀️

[ashen dagger]

Its not an argument its feedback.

[warm pagoda]

5k kills is a LOT, but its still in the reach of a total casual like me

[warm pagoda]

well, not all feedback is good feedback lol

[wide topaz]

english not your main language?

legit question

[ashen dagger]

Do you not think its out of the reach of any other players?

[ashen dagger]

Dont throw stones in a glass house bud

[wide topaz]

ah yes because asking "is english not your main language" is throwing stones

[warm pagoda]

my argument is not about catering to a minority of players, its about generating maximum player engagement overal

[wide topaz]

not knowing the definition of an argument is a legit reason to ask that

[ashen dagger]

Idk man, if i were an average player I wouldnt feel accomplishment to get a skin that the devs had to specifically lower to be withing my reach. Especially if it was lowered enough so that average players have a good shot of reaching it with little effort. Just doesnt feel like a challenge at that point.

[ashen dagger]

u sayin my garmmer is bad

[wide topaz]

I said you don't know a basic definition

nothing more, nothing less.

[ashen dagger]

u sayin my vocab is bad

[warm pagoda]

well, you clearly arent good at understanding other people's perspectives, so I dont see why I should entertain this hypothetical. (which would be an entirely fallacious argument anyways, conflating your opinions with the average opion)

[ashen dagger]

i cant post links sorry

wanted to help educate you but i cant

[ashen dagger]

Ok

[south flare]

I cba to read everything so everyone drop your main points

What do you want to be changed

[wide topaz]

#1180201643522932766 message

[ashen dagger]

They want all high skin requirements to be lowered in line with what the average player can get, including the mastery skins.

[south flare]

Imo majority of the skins should be easily available to average players

And leave some very high kill ones

Like the current masteries

[ashen dagger]

Im gonna make a separate thread about the masteries

[wide topaz]

likely gonna die like all your others

[ashen dagger]

#1182613833785819216 message

[ashen dagger]

All my other threads die because they are good ideas and have comprehensive descriptions with nothing anyone wants to add to them, thus they dont get bumped. I'm pretty sure only one of my suggestions has been majority downvoted.

[wide topaz]

more likely, its dead because people ain't bothered to read it beyond the shitty idea

[warm pagoda]

I think they probably arent worth the grind for enough people to really generate completionist motivation to grind.

If you want to have a big grind, it should probably be more engaging than kill farming, and if you want to have a skill gate, it should probably use something more than simple kills counts.

Not to mention a slightly metallic gold skin also feels like wouldnt seem like a worthwhile reward for someone at an average skill level (me, im average)

[ashen dagger]

Unfortunately discord is awful so it's hard to link every thread I have made, but all of my threads have been 10+ majority upvoted, with most of them going into the 30s.

[south flare]

And im pretty sure the average player doesnt want to spend 120+h to grind a 6k kill skin

[wide topaz]

funnily enough the exact same amount as the people who don't like this one. easily noted as a minority

[ashen dagger]

uh

[warm pagoda]

I mean, you'd be reducing the number of kills, thus putting in reach of more players.

Maybe not the majority, but its probably more in line with the sort of people interested in a completionist grind anyway.

I dont want to get rid of the difficulty, just make it worthwhile for a larger portion of players.

[south flare]

Average kpm is ~1.1 so definitely the majority

[ashen dagger]

Is that true? Where do you get that from?

[south flare]

Someone released the average stats a while ago

[random grail]

Wont you think of them noobs 😭😭😭😭

Id lower the golden/silver cammo to 1111 3333 7777 kills

[south flare]

Like more than half of the skins wont be touched by anyone unless they lower the kill counts

[ashen dagger]

@everyone please vote on this thread if you have not already #1182613833785819216 message

[queen aspen]

I'ma just leave this here and dip out because some of y'all are painful to debate with. (I also forgot how to bullet points because dumbass himbo)

-Mastery skins should be based on challenges (and completing all of them for the gun type will give some penultimate skin like CoD)

-Regular skins are fine with stat/time gates but would be nice if certain patterns/colors had different requirements like X headshots or X range kills (for example).

-I liked the condensation of camos like @fresh stump 's idea

-Burnout is gonna happen fast with the current system for the general player

[near onyx]

That's how you can tell this troll didn't even read my post before he starting ranting because I literally started referring to mastery skins on the s e c o n d line.
That's how far he got.
And then he went out of his way to make a whole new suggestion saying my thread was being "ambiguous on changing the mastery requirements" when there's a whole segment in my OP showing what I think the baseline for every weapon class's Gold camo mastery should be at. My W H O L E suggestion is talking about mastery kill requirements. I literally only brought up other non-mastery camos One other time.

Sorry for everyone that had to deal with this guy, and thank you for putting up with his continuous bait. Bless you guys @fresh stump @warm pagoda @stray goblet and many others.

Edit: Here's the OP link because its seems like some people just come here and starting arguing off of whatever was the last reply instead of engaging with the original idea.
#1180201643522932766 message

[dense junco]

the pfp should have already given away that this fella is to be disregarded

[near onyx]

Indeed. I stopped directly replying to him once he started calling everyone "salty" for thinking they might not enjoy grind over 100 in game hours for a skin.

[stray goblet]

I like how he decided to make an additional thread for the simple fact that he found his opinion in the minority

[near onyx]

The haters circle

[stray goblet]

His lack of self respect serves as an inspiration to me

[stray goblet]

Impressive levels of parasitism

[near onyx]

@ everyone for something like that should be an instant perma mute

[fresh stump]

the @ everyone should only @ people in the thread

but yea, bit uncessesary

[near onyx]

i reconize that, but you shouldnt be leaching off other post like that in any sense

[stray goblet]

he shouldnt use @ everyone to begin with because its simply dickish

[fresh stump]

As a post leech, I'll admit it doesn't bother me that bad

But I getcha

This conversation really has been much more complex than it had any right to be lol

[stray goblet]

"Hey guys im trying to get your attention for a new thread i made where I hope to have my opinion supported by public opinion by attempting to ping you all in the old thread where I disrespected myself through my behavior and arguments"

[fresh stump]

But it's been fun for me at least lol

[near onyx]

Indeed it has.

[stray goblet]

For the record, my problem with the behavior of him and others has been not as a consequence of me disagreeing with their views, but the way in which they decided to express and argue for them

Disagreement is fantastic as it forces both parties to figure out the closest possible thing to the truth/best solution to a given thing

acting with zero regard or care for the other argument and arguing against things never said doesnt help anyone

[fresh stump]

TBF it's BBR, both sides are equally stupid in their own special way

[near onyx]

OH SHIT I @ the wrong devil dog 😭

[near onyx]

@wide topaz

lmaooooooo

[stray goblet]

its a devil dog gamer

the ultimate in devil dog gaming

[near onyx]

I wonder if I should update the title of this post? I originally wanted it to be seen as light hearted and not just me demanding the devs lower it, so thats why its says silly goose 💀

[queen aspen]

Probably for the best considering how far we got. Maybe update the op with a recap of suggestions and stuff too to save time for people.

[near onyx]

I wish I could but there's a character limit and I'm already maxed it 😭 I realized when I was trying to add a bunch of other people's quotes before hand

[dense junco]

OPs gotta make a habit of throwing in placeholder messages at the beginning for this

[near onyx]

Actually I do have one. It was about a camo they removed that I liked. Maybe I'll add some to that later. Thanks for the idea

[dense junco]

yea

[queen aspen]

Oh which camo was it?

[dense junco]

i think it was the olive-on-black that looked really good on guns like the L96 and MK14

somewhat low level skin

[queen aspen]

Ah that one, yeah idk why they'd get rid of it

I kinda wish the mastery skins were better than just dipped in paint tbh. Black ops 1 still has the best gold camo out there in a game

[dense junco]

they definitely need to add unpainted accents to some of the skins, especially the rivals ones

I noticed some guns looked quite good with the maze camo due to being textured properly, but some were clearly not touched including all of the squiggle camos

[wet cobalt]

Or, mastery could give like a third layer maybe?

[dense junco]

not a bad idea

[near onyx]

This one #1180201643522932766 message

[queen aspen]

Oh that's hot

[near onyx]

It was my favorite. It was the 1500kill camo and I had it on every gun I could. Honestly I preferred that one skin to most of the ones we have now 😞

[stray goblet]

totally agreed

[ashen dagger]

I mean... #1182613833785819216 message. I think this kinda proves that most people either only went by the posts title or dont really care about the mastery skins at all. Few people even bothered to vote on the thread I made specifically about this (so they probably dont care), and those who did voted majority in favor of keeping masteries where they are.

Cope all you want about your whole message including masteries, but considering you are accusing me of not reading it, I think we both know most people are going to vote with the title more than the body of the post.

[wide topaz]

oh wow 23 upvotes?

compared to 175 and counting?

sure bud, he's the one coping

[ashen dagger]

28

Also I adressed that point

[wide topaz]

you addressed the point that you don't realize you need to click on the suggestion to leave a reaction.

most of those people are gonna be from here

once again, your posts are ignored because they suck

[near onyx]

You literally @ everyone on my post so all who disagreed simply came to your post to hit like. Numbers line up, What did you expect?

Congratulations you played yourself. Also nice leech.

[ashen dagger]

Lmao i didnt @everyone. I cant @everyone. I just posted it here so that the relevant people would notice it.

Why do you think the vote numbers are so much lower on the other post?

[wide topaz]

yeah less people agreed with you on your post than did in this one

sad that you still think you are correct

[ashen dagger]

fewer*

And thats kinda my whole point. People voted on this post with all camos in mind, not the 3 masteries.

So it stands to reason that more people care about all camos than specifically the masteries

not that hard to understand

[wide topaz]

ever heard of a synonym before? seriously english must not be your first language at all

[ashen dagger]

thats why there are fewer votes on the post about the masteries than there are on this post

[ashen dagger]

😬

You sure about that?

[near onyx]

Bros talking to himself at this point 😂

[wide topaz]

almost like we are talking about a full system change, you just want to be an ass lol

[near onyx]

Delusional

[ashen dagger]

:-\

Just take the L on the masteries man. Everyone agrees the other camos should be easier to get.

[near onyx]

Man got 20 likes and it went to his head 😭😭😭

Finna block bro. Dude @s me at work

[ashen dagger]

Could you give an actual answer as to why you think the other post got more votes than this post?

It has to be something other than because I made it cause that's stupid.

[wide topaz]

none of his posts have gone above 30

literally none of them

actually a couple have gotten low 30s

he thinks this means something

[ashen dagger]

You sure about that?

How much you wanna bet?

How much you wanna bet none of my posts have gotten above 40 upvotes

[near onyx]

Ikr.

[dense junco]

i wanna bet you not typing in this thread again that you didn't get four morbillion updoots on discord.com

[ashen dagger]

Also the reason I even bring up the number of votes is because your entire argument hinges on my posts never getting any engagement, which just doesnt make sense.

[wide topaz]

I mean no

I just point out that your ideas suck

[dense junco]

there is no algorithm

[wide topaz]

and that basically noone agress with you

[dense junco]

not one thing sbeve did made his post more visible

he just had a good opinion that people agreed with

[ashen dagger]

"His posts dont even get any upvotes lol"
"My posts do get upvotes"
"LMAO he cares about upvotes!!"

thats what this conversation has been...

If you wanna engage with my point please feel free to

[wide topaz]

yeah because you bring it up all the time

that's the whole reason we talk about it

for the record

engagement means nothing

[ashen dagger]

There's no algorithm. Messages bump the post. If you dont realize that that just means more controversial posts get bumped the most idk what to tell you.

[wide topaz]

and old post, even with thousands of daily posts, will not be pushed to the top

thats not how it works lol

[ashen dagger]

#1180201643522932766 message dont gaslight, you brought it up.

[wide topaz]

Unread posts get pushed up

but the older the OP is, the lower on the list it goes

so unless you search it up or check every single suggestion at all times, its gonna be lower and lower

[dense junco]

if it were controversial then the votes would be very divided, but alas, it is overwhelmingly positive reception

[ashen dagger]

No. It depends on the sort. I'm not sure what the default sort is but Im pretty sure it's the recent activity one.

[ashen dagger]

I already adressed this.

[wide topaz]

not activity, unread posts are pushed up by default

[ashen dagger]

Are you just trolling at this point?

[wide topaz]

and the older main posts are at the bottom of the unread list

that is literally how it works

[dense junco]

rings true once again

[ashen dagger]

Open #1170727258537865367 and check how long ago the last message on all of the posts was, i think you will be shocked to find a correlation between that and the top post

[ashen dagger]

This is gonna blow your mind

[dense junco]

is this the hill you really want to die on

your suggestion being unremarkable is no one's fault but your own

[wide topaz]

its his one argument left

[near onyx]

I think little bro wanted us to come over to his anti-thread to boost the engagement up 🤡

[dense junco]

literally this

[near onyx]

[dense junco]

also i find it infinitely hilarious that this was literally trump v. kim jong un

[near onyx]

Yeah I knew it gonna be a war from the getgo 💀💀

[ashen rain]

It’s poetic, honestly

[wide topaz]

have you not seen him do the same whenever he gets one or two people who agree with him? Anyway, where it appears is not the point, though I can concede its actually custom in another server that I was using as a template and not default. the point was his posts sucked so nobody bothered to engage it. He's also using his upvotes, which is still less than the people disagreeing with this post, as a point to say that Sbeve's post was wrong and people don't care about the subject.

[woeful acorn]

good suggestion is dead suggestion the end

if its good people just upvote n dip

if its bad well you have this

[wide topaz]

it really isn't. also its only the top reaction that you can vote for. his post was up top for basically the entire time since he posted it till about an hour ago, no engagement.

my point in this case was that his was there too, for several hours. and after the initial hour of his post where he was posting a link to his suggestion, those upvotes never moved since. his post was in the top 5 since he posted it till about an hour ago give or take a bit. He is still trying to use his post and lack of engagement to "prove" that Sbeve's post having such a high upvote to downvote ratio does not mean anything because it was just because it was on top for a long time.

in short, he's trying to delegitimize any post that wants to change the camo system because he wants the masteries to stay the same.

[wide topaz]

there is a difference in proving someone is a minority statistically, and trying to force the idea that the votes don't matter in the first place.

fucking lol

I see you didn't bother reading into context for those messages then

if you notice he was using his vote already to delegitimize this post.

"I think this kinda proves that most people either only went by the posts title or dont really care about the mastery skins at all. Few people even bothered to vote on the thread I made specifically about this (so they probably dont care), and those who did voted majority in favor of keeping masteries where they are."

like literally his first post just above my first one he says this

my point in pointing out the upvotes was because it was a new thread, and gained no traction. not because "upvotes don't matter"

I was saying that his small number of engagement was not going to delegitimize this post just because he decided it did, which of course he tried to keep fighting for.

2 hours already had most of the upvotes, time since then added another 60 or 70 upvotes and like 5 downvotes.

...what other thread would I talk about here?

anyway getting away from the thread as it is

[near onyx]

We've responded in many times with respect to players with differing views for this system. Disagreeing is fine, I love open conversation. But there's no getting around that chum is just a seething troll not to be taken seriously. Therefore, noone is replying to him seriously.

[fresh stump]

Eh, I think the hating towards chum is a little much.

Y'all did kind of start just dogging on him at some point, he never really started anything till people started on him imo.

But, it really isn't important now imo

[near onyx]

I have like less then 10 replies directed at him in total so I'm assuming this comment isn't really directed to me, but even while ignoring him for the most part I still noticed his blatant toxicity.

[wet cobalt]

Let's not forget that handgun camos require as much kills as primary weapons, which is ridiculous

[near onyx]

@wet cobalt Indeed brother. Welcome to the cause.

[jagged leaf]

10k kills with any pistol for gold camo isn't even a grind

It's a torture

Which is illegal

[stray goblet]

so true

[near onyx]

I like your thinking, good sir

[lapis anvil]

New update and this suggestion still has not been adressed, we lost 😵

[stray goblet]

Soon™️

[near onyx]

Not how it works, my friend. Issues like this are never acted on right away.

Hell, it's took them well over a month of people complaining about lowering XP requirements to level up before they took it into consideration.

[dense junco]

there are also a few changes listed before the patch that didn't make it to this update so there's definitely a backlog of sorts

[lapis anvil]

Aight, i can only blame my expectations

Full cope but I hope that if they're not lowering the kills right now despite the fact that it's only numbers in the code it's for a greater enhancement of the system, like not only unlocking camos with kills but also with headshots, COD style (which is currently not yet possible cause they don't save that kind of data)

[near onyx]

Other challenges to actively engage in would be lovely. But for now, Ill be happy if they just bring the numbers down.

[dense junco]

would love sniper skins that require hipfire kills

[lapis anvil]

👆Dont let this guy cook 😭

[dense junco]

smg skins for 200m kills hehehehe

[near onyx]

It might be looking good for us boys.

With how passionate Oki was talking on the dev stream about making the game more accessible for the causal player, I think there's a good chance he'll bring down the kill requirements for camos as well. Because in no way is 10000 kills on one weapon feasible for them.