Armour - Feedback

[merry whale]

so could be they are all set at the same rate or different for the arms & legs

[distant cape]

Neutral

But it would be a small buff to armour

[merry whale]

this assumes we keep the whole armor doesn't cover the whole body

[supple pulsar]

is payday the only game that does dat bruh

[twin hazel]

heavy armor options that cover limbs, but add more weight. just like the gunners IOTV and stuff if we ever want that.

[supple pulsar]

again the whole reduction on limbs isnt exo exclusive but every armor so limbs shots doesnt happen

[twin hazel]

maybe limb shots have a higher chance to bleed, but do less damage on hit?

[sour pivot]

That's ONE example, dude. ONE. I could give several others and none of them, NOT A SINGLE ONE, are Battlefield-esque games unless you go absolutely bizarro style with Planetside 2's MAX-suits

[twin hazel]

not exactly how it works IRL but we dont got TQs in our first aid slot

[distant cape]

Personally I see this as unnecessary complication

[merry whale]

CS

jokes aside

[long pollen]

Why is this even a conversation, you are aware that there are high damage sidearms no?

[merry whale]

Anyhow Limb wise I would say a basic damage multiplier would work

[sour pivot]

A better solution would be to just reduce damage on limb shots overall, which the devs have already considered

[twin hazel]

would mean less shooting toes to kill but its still a problem, but yeah maybe too much.

[sour pivot]

I was talking about pistols specifically, not the heavy pistols. I guess I should've been clearer, but in my defence the game itself is a bit muddy on the nomenclature

[supple pulsar]

when did the devs reconsider that?

genuine question

[long pollen]

Sure, but then you have a choice between having a fast way to take down an unarmored enemy (glock), something like the M9 that puts out enough damage to kill/finish someone if you catch them unaware or high caliber if you want to directly face high armor enemies.

The whole point of improving the armor system is to make weapon choice more interesting instead of the current situation where there's a couple of guns per category that are clearly superior across the board.

[sour pivot]

Can't remember exactly when/where or I would absolutely link it here, but I distinctly remember Oki asking somewhere about that, suggesting limbs should have a 20% damage reduction on hit or something. I mean, I could be wrong but from what I remember I saw it somewhere here on the server

[supple pulsar]

eh

[merry whale]

any idea where on the server?

[sour pivot]

But then you get shit like this: #1152896217517391902 message

[supple pulsar]

i mean i can search with filters from oki + limbs as keyword

and non

[long pollen]

I thought this was the way it would work when I started out with the game since there was no clear indication of exactly what would lead to a bleed.

[distant cape]

Already tried, nothing of use

[sour pivot]

I get your point, but "interesting" doesn't always equal "fun" or "balanced"

[supple pulsar]

i mean fun for you might not be fun for us either

[sour pivot]

Maybe I was wrong then

[supple pulsar]

fun is subjective all the way

[merry whale]

True

[supple pulsar]

and which ever gets oki and his secret feedback crew

gets the most yes

gets implemented

if you having damge reduction was most people find fun

then idk mate

either have damage reduction depending on weapon type so penalty can remain or have no armor or just give everyone same amount of armor with no penalty

[long pollen]

Which is why you then consider your loadout to either commit against one armor type or have a sidearm that complements the downsides of your primary. But also the whole reason planning a loadout doesn't make sense at the moment is because the game is pure chaos and everything is constantly moving. If there was some expectation that spotting an enemy means they will still be around the same area for the next 20 seconds then it would make sense to adapt and call out different targets much like one can spot vehicles to let others with a more appropriate loadout deal with them.

[distant cape]

Really we need polls for this kind of opinion gathering. With clear explanations of all sides of the argument of course

The people who talk here are just a handful who happen to be more passionate about unimportant debates

[supple pulsar]

agree we need polls

[sour pivot]

Again: bad idea for a number of reasons. A much better idea would be to have a generalized damage reduction based on armour with a flat upper cap based on armour class, so that sniper bullets/other high-powered weapons won't instantly be reduced to peashooters

[merry whale]

So

[supple pulsar]

my idea doesnt even made the sniper peashooters

#1152896217517391902 message

[sour pivot]

And yet again: unless you're literally a fucking psychic, your argument is moot 'cause NOBODY can reasonably predict whether or not they're gonna be up against heavy, medium, light or even unarmoured opponents. This game is inarguably and objectively a first-person shooter, NOT a role-playing game. The game is already complex enough with all the stats on weapons. Piling on even more complexity for no real reason will just make the game confusing and a right bloody un-fun pain to play. Again: BBR IS NOT AN RPG, let me make that abundantly clear

[merry whale]

I feel you are being what you claim on others seasick

[sour pivot]

No, your idea would instead render non-heavy pistol sidearms impotent

[distant cape]

Remember we can rebalance all guns after this change is made.

[supple pulsar]

side arms being a lst resort doesnt make it impotent

[merry whale]

Yep

[sour pivot]

If exo armour has a, say, 60% damage reduction versus lower/slower calibre guns like 9mm pistols, then using an M9 against a support with exo armour would be completely non-viable. I dunno how I can make that any more clear

[distant cape]

Want to confirm. Would this be in addition to anything else? Because these values look pretty low. A lot weaker than current armour

[merry whale]

who said 60%?

[sour pivot]

Seriously, we already have specific damage statistics on guns for a reason. Making them deal different damage based solely on what type of armour they target is just needless fuss 'n' bother

[supple pulsar]

why does it need to be 60%

bruh

[merry whale]

Kazku

I feel seasick has when a touch crazy

and is trying to purposely derail the conversation

he keeps getting stuck on these little things & making his own numbers up

otherwise he is consisently just insulting people when he disagrees with them

[supple pulsar]

my damage reduction idea isnt even like way overboard damage reduction

[sour pivot]

I'm done trying to reason with you. You're either being deliberately obtuse just to stir shit up, or you're just hopelessly contrarian for no reason

[merry whale]

(highest one to my knowledge on your chart is 12%, he goes out of his way to say 60%)

[merry whale]

Case in point of what I mean

he blocked me by the way

So I feel he won't read this

[grave shard]

dude xD he's just saying exo sucks and it should be more durable

[supple pulsar]

yeah shortest version of explanation right there

lmao

im not even making every armor durable just making exo and heavy more durable while mainting the speed and aim down penalty

[dense juniper]

remove armor best idea you arent changing my mind

[supple pulsar]

i agree too might as well

[merry whale]

personally I find removing armor to be a touch boring to say the least

[round sorrel]

Heavy and exo should definitely have increased absorption for smaller calibers, so as to be a very soft counter to SMGs dominating Heavy and Assault in most circumstances.
I'd argue it's not just more realistic, but actually better for game balance the way things stand.

[daring badge]

if he considered that it's news to me, bc he 100% shut that down the last time it was brought up

[sour pivot]

Yeah, well, I probably misremembered things. Still, he should reconsider it 'cause it's pretty dumb having no damage reduction on limb shots in a game like this

[long pollen]

There's this thing called sound cues that can be used to alert players to the presence of nearby enemies using heavy armor + spotting systems which can incorporate additional details regarding the nature of the threat. Your inability to think of ways to convey this information does not mean it's not possible.

And fyi the presence of armor and general durability-altering options is a rather standard thing across the FPS genre, so the comparison with RPGs is very silly.

If anything, the common complaint that nuance = milsim also falls flat here considering Squad and Project Reality don't include armor at all.

[supple pulsar]

watch out he gonna block you cuz you disagreed

[sour pivot]

And none of that matters for shit since that's all factors you'll encounter AFTER you've chosen your loadout. So for the final time, your "argument" = MOOT

[long pollen]

Oh man, wait till you try the game out and realize that there are no good-at-everything loadouts. Don't forget you can still get a refund before you hit the two hour mark.

[sour pivot]

Are you always this much of an absolute dickbag? Or did somebody just happen to shit in your cornflakes this morning?

Actually, don't bother answering that, 'cause it's a rhetorical question

[supple pulsar]

bruh just insults everyone

[long pollen]

Well, I'm glad Oki was thoughtful enough to implement community servers so people like him can still enjoy their niche milsim fantasies after the armor changes get implemented. :)

[supple pulsar]

bruh just probably came here to disagree to everything

[twin hazel]

man this guy isn't even milsim, I have no fucking clue where he sits on the spectrum of players.

[merry whale]

not sure the guy is milsim or arcade leaning even

[merry whale]

I feel he made the line into a triangle

[merry whale]

pretty much, I said last night he is most likely trolling us at this rate to side track everyone

[signal venture]

Guys

Armor needs a buff

[merry whale]

Agreed there

[signal venture]

100% match long damage reduction

[dense juniper]

Is it

[merry whale]

cod 4 juggurnaut comes to mind

various arena shooters with their various ways to do it

Hero shooters with a mix of abilities & such

battlefield with armor plates

planetside 2 with various systems

Ready or not with it's armor system

Starship troopers with the bastion

SCP Secert lab with armor system

DRG with it;s armor & Shield upgrades among other things

[dense juniper]

Armor not extra hp type shit

[merry whale]

currently armor is one in the same lol

most games treat armor as either extra HP or DR

another example is R6S which has done both

[dense juniper]

R6 armor is literally extra hp 💀

[merry whale]

as stated it has (as in the past) done both

so current is extra HP, used to be DR

otherwise as Lucuma said (Which you replied to) "And fyi the presence of armor and general durability-altering options is a rather standard thing across the FPS genre, so the comparison with RPGs is very silly."

you said is it

thus we are looking at this statement

But yea, lots of FPS games do alterations to durability based on armor & such options

[dense juniper]

Not extra hp

[merry whale]

Note the statement you replied to

you simply said is it, to the whole statement

[dense juniper]

Can't reply to what doesn't exist

[merry whale]

hmm

But to the statement

I listed several FPS games that feature various armor systems

these include simple HP increasers in some case to more complex systems like Ready or not

[dense juniper]

Ron is also """complex""" tho

Cba thinking

I think the only "casual" or whatever you wanna call it game that uses actual armor instead of extra hp is ww3

[merry whale]

CS2?

got armor & a helmet last I checked

[supple pulsar]

yeah cs uses hp and damage reduction

[dense juniper]

[signal venture]

IRL it would probably stop one or two bullets flat out and slow down other ones once the plates shatter.

(ceramic plates, which I assume are the "battlebit" ones)

[supple pulsar]

ok where is this going?

like just saying how irl vest works?

[dense juniper]

Theyre a milsimmer so guess

[twin hazel]

we acknowledged this. that would be even less fun than anything else

[twin hazel]

man not even simulators care to destroy your armor if its not vehicle slat/ERA.

that's just masochistic at that point

[dense juniper]

[weary condor]

Bruh armor is interesting rn I don't want a boring all-over-the-body forever reduction, because it WILL become all-encompassing and super impactful on TTK/BTK and the overall experience.

Literally the only problem that needs to be fixed is armor's benefit's longevity (one-and-done) compared to its drawback's longevity (forever slow).

And THAT problem can be fixed in an actually interesting way by giving Engi a bandage-like gadget that slaps armor and helmets back onto people.

[dense juniper]

Exo cucks be like

[signal venture]

Im a milsimer?

WAIT

IDEA

what if it was a one and done thing

but

A. you have an indication your armor was used

then you can "take it off" kinda like bandaging, where you drop your plates in like 7 seconds

[dense juniper]

Ok but why

[signal venture]

wdym why

you drop the plate

you get to go faster

[twin hazel]

armor compromised anyway, why not, it gives no benefits anymore.

[signal venture]

@weary condor what do you think?

Solves the one and done benifit to perminant slowdown issue

[weary condor]

That'd also work, but might be too involved depending on how arcadey this is game is supposed to be

[twin hazel]

press and hold button is too involved?

[signal venture]

Thats a fair point..

[signal venture]

breaks up the flow of things

arcade games are just go go go

[twin hazel]

don't we do that basically everywhere else already?

[signal venture]

yeah

[weary condor]

Yeah, and the slowdown

[signal venture]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[merry whale]

game is a mix

[twin hazel]

like healing, repairing, rearming, dragging and reviving? so what's having another button bound to drop comprimised armor?

[weary condor]

I mean the less involved solution is just, when the plates get broken by shots you automatically get the move speed, but I think that'd be a little cringe due to everyone complaining about move speed anyways.

[merry whale]

than again most games mix arcade & milsim elements

[signal venture]

then the stronger armor will almost always be better

has to be a time penalty thats chosen by player

(when the time penalty is incured, not how long it is)

[weary condor]

Yeah that too, then everyone would just go for the stronger armor.

[twin hazel]

less we just drop the broken "plate"

[weary condor]

unzip da vest yeah yeah whateva

[signal venture]

?

[twin hazel]

which is like only a third of the weight of any armor system?

[signal venture]

its a game

have to have a balance.

your point as well, make it too realistic and its just boring

[twin hazel]

lol

didn't even let me finish dipshit

[signal venture]

sorry?

[weary condor]

It's why I still believe an Engi with the bandage-like gadget, him slapping helmets on people and shoving more plates in their armor, is more interesting and more balanced 'cause like, it's team play and you can't just at-will give and take the benefits and drawbacks of armor away. It'd make it only slightly buff armor's balance but make it way more attractive as a choice imo.

[twin hazel]

all good, but yeah removal of the "plate" just means you gain like a 33% weight reduction, instead of "I dropped the whole exo suit, am now the flash"

standard repairing could work too, but who is gonna take that realistically if its an engy gadget?

[merry whale]

personally I feel engie already has a good bit from his vehicle jobs

[signal venture]

yeah thats a fair point. I was thinking the time penalty would be different for each armor though.
might be a 25% lingering penalty or something

[merry whale]

(AKA repair tool for vehicles + RPG among other benefits)

[twin hazel]

Assault and recon are kinda the only classes available to have a new "box of X"

[weary condor]

Also the incremental nature of Engi welding torch healing is a little sussy like medic's hold out his hand and be healeedd. I'd prefer it to be bandage-like, so you have a short timer and after the timer they get their armor back.

[weary condor]

I might agree but I feel like they don't have a place in non-conq game modes. At most I see 1 on a squad in any other mode

[merry whale]

RPG heat tends to say otherwise

[twin hazel]

I dont mind the medic since its alot slower than bandages unless more than one medic is working on you

[merry whale]

also RPG Frag if it ever becomes good

[weary condor]

Meh, I still only see them like 1 at most

[merry whale]

I tend to see 3-4 here

[weary condor]

Wacky

[merry whale]

There are people who abuse those RPG Heats to just go "Nope" to a building of people

[twin hazel]

basically any RPG plus his explosives. Engys are still prevalent, just not as much since alot of engy mains switch to assault to be Engy but with out rpg and shoot gun better

[supple pulsar]

idk ive sen alot of rpg on 127v127 maps to be exact

[twin hazel]

which now brings us back to "everyone has fucking c4"

[supple pulsar]

idk about lower player counts one

[weary condor]

Well either way, it's not much of a buff to engi, just a nice option sorta thing. You're healing 62 hp at max, most of the time you'll only be healing 12 or 24 hp

[twin hazel]

yeah you always see RPGs on the backs of alot of the team.

its not that is a buff to engy

[dense juniper]

[twin hazel]

its more, who is giving up the utility of everything else engy has to offer to bring armor repair?

lets face it the majority of players are K/D hunters

[merry whale]

Will say this, I kinda feel armor repair should either be a support (mutually exclusive with ammo) or assault

[twin hazel]

I'm thinking assault, instead of that little ammo box he got

or maybe on top of since its the default class

[merry whale]

effectively assault & Support can both make easy use of it among the 3 options in my head (Assault,Support recon ; Recon is well, Recon and it wouldn't be much use, Assault & support both can sport heavier armor to get some value from it and are more frontliners and could spread this value)

Plus who knows, we could do a small & big box & do it like the current ammo box setup

So small box to do say just helmets or just the vests and big can do both

[twin hazel]

armor has hp, so it could also work like medic box maybe

when its on the ground I mean

[merry whale]

being honest that is my preferred idea

[twin hazel]

just holding it in hands and "repairing" would not be the best Idea I think

[merry whale]

Yep

[twin hazel]

especially if you are reparing someone else

[merry whale]

I would rather have it "Bulk" repair but be interruptable by damage

[twin hazel]

I can just imagine a fucking pit crew

3-4 medics, 2-3 supports, and one shooter

man be immortal

[merry whale]

"Okay DD20, you & I shall be repairing this exo"

I doubt immortal per say

[twin hazel]

with exo?

[merry whale]

far harder to kill definitively through

Yep

M200 still goes nope

otherwise I image two guys could overwhelm the healing/armor repair to some degree at least

and than RPG Heat

[twin hazel]

with how fast a medic box heals, and with a armor box doing the exact same thing to armor, with that many people he wont lose enough health and his armor would come back before he died, and he would heal before the armor breaks

[merry whale]

And frags

[twin hazel]

litterally only one shot weapons would be viable against that kind of shit

so yeah

not a good idea

[merry whale]

but anyhow through

[twin hazel]

moving on the the actual ideas

[merry whale]

I am fully up for having it go on the ground & being picked up possibly

[twin hazel]

I think the little medic box on the ground, with a short timer giving a set amount of hp would work fine

[merry whale]

sounds like a good system that can't be exploited from china to Paris

[twin hazel]

got a moment without contact? good to repair. middle of a firefight? only if you are crazy and think that little armor will save you

[merry whale]

Pretty much

[twin hazel]

also helps at most the heaviest armor has like 47 "hp"

I think

[merry whale]

beats the current medic healing themselves while sprinting like a mad man in the middle of a fire fight

[twin hazel]

that is what exo got right?

[merry whale]

that is heavy

[dense juniper]

Exo is 63 or something

[merry whale]

heavy is like 43 to 47

exo is around 62

[twin hazel]

ah, I see

[dense juniper]

thank fuck its not 250 anymore

[merry whale]

exo tends to add a extra shot compared to heavy

[dense juniper]

Remove exo when

[twin hazel]

fair enough( I never fucking noticed that and those two are my most worn armor)

[merry whale]

it is a case of how easy armor is to bypass currently 9/10

[dense juniper]

Remove it so it can't be bypassed

[merry whale]

I feel we get it sworce

[dense juniper]

Wait

Why can i use stickers here

Nvm

[twin hazel]

I assume its becaues everything is relaxed?

[signal venture]

just has to be one shot kill

aka

TANK SHELL TO THE FACEEEEEEE

[dense juniper]

[twin hazel]

literally COD Jug. got an RPG? hope you got at least 4 more rockets and can reload like a god.

[signal venture]

I can imagine the mortar crew trick shotting shells into the tube to maximise reload speed

plump! BOOM! clang. plump! BOOM! clang. plump! BOOM! clang. plump! BOOM! clang. plump! BOOM!

[long pollen]

Move RPG over to the C4 slot and force engi to carry repair tool which works for both armor and vehicles, ta-da, bunch of issues solved in one change

Less C4 spam + now engi has a more defined role as a supporting class that can always be relied on to provide repairs in one form or another

And it is relevant even in vehicle-free modes

[twin hazel]

right because the engineers c4 is the main problem. also why would the RPG be a light gadget? engineers entire thing is supposed to be explosives, unlike basiacally every other class.

[dense juniper]

because fuck you or something

[signal venture]

ya

[distant cape]

it isn't a supporting class, it's a blowing things up class

[timid night]

I'd just throw armor health out the window
Make it:

• No armor is as usual
• Light armor is -2 damage and a 0.95 multiplier on the remainder
• Medium armor is -4 damage and a 0.9 multiplier on the remainder
• Heavy armor is -6 damage and a 0.8 multiplier on the remainder
• Exo is the same as heavy but with 50% blast resistance (so it actually has a reason to exist that doesn't make it a pain to fight against)

The numbers aren't exact, but ideally, they should have more of an effect on small calliber guns than large ones, without really making armor useless against higher damage. If leg meta becomes a thing, a 0.7 damage multiplier on limbs would BOTH make people less consistently murder eachother in NULL:TIME, and reward people that actually aim for body and headshots

with these numbers:
a 40 damage gun would kill in:

• no armor: 3 shots
• light armor: 3 shots
• medium armor: 4 shots
• heavy armor: 4 shots
  a 34 damage gun would kill in:
• no armor: 3 shots
• light armor: 4 shots
• medium armor: 4 shots
• heavy armor: 5 shots
  a 30 damage gun would kill in:
• no armor: 4 shots
• light armor: 4 shots
• medium armor: 5 shots
• heavy armor: 6 shots
  a 27 damage gun would kill in:
• no armor: 4 shots
• light armor: 5 shots
• medium armor: 5 shots
• heavy armor: 6 shots

[distant cape]

Ran the numbers on these and got some estimated durability increases from this overall. In terms of how much more durable the armour is compared to unarmoured:

Light armour empty helm has gone from 9.1% to 5.5%

Light armour normal helm has gone from 11.7% to 8%

Medium armour has gone from 21.7% to 13.1%

Heavy armour has gone from 40.6% to 25.1%

Exo armour has gone from 67.4% to 30% (higher than heavy since the helmet covers the face I guess)

In summary this would make armour about half as strong as it is right now. We’d need to have some more extreme reductions to keep it usable

[timid night]

hmm, i feel the overall effect is still pretty good when the lower damage weapons are taken into account, since they lose a flat amount of damage before getting hit with the % reduction
besides that, most damage types don't seem to vary all that much, i could be mistaken, but since this would mean armor doesn't deplete anymore, it would be much more consistent accross multiple fights and thus warrant not being as good as overall

It could still be bigger if need be, but i chose these numbers to take the shots to kill as close to regular as possible

[distant cape]

This takes all weapons into account other than pistols

It makes a bit of an assumption that all other weapons you’re equally likely to run into. But I have no stats on weapon popularities so it’s the best I can do

[timid night]

ooh, interesting

[distant cape]

You’re of course right about the longevity. But the consensus is that we need a buff and I think this would be significantly less powerful overall for your average player.

[timid night]

but say, a vector, which has 22 damage, will now deal.. 16*0.8 damage against heavy armor.. 12.8 damage
that's a bit more than half the damage it normally does, so i'd say if an increase is necessary, increase the percentage rather than the flat damage

i like that there is SOME inbalance with the flat damage, but i fear it can absolutely mess up lower damage guns if done wrong

[distant cape]

Yeah this will also have the side effect of making the effectiveness of your armour vary wildly based on who you happen to run into, so effectively at random

Which is why I’m generally not in favour of the idea of flat reductions

[timid night]

i wouldn't really say, "at random", more so make some guns more effective at dealing with armored oponents, and some more effective against unarmored ones
it may seem random but when movespeed is taken into account, you'll generally not see them in the same places

but yeah, if it really is an issue, i'd just have a similar % reduction to what we have right now, but permanent instead of via extra health

[distant cape]

Mmm… yes you will
If someone runs around a corner there is no way whatsoever to have picked your loadout in advance to be able to deal with them

Support players might lag behind a bit, that doesn’t matter if you’re at the front and just running towards the nearest source of kills

[timid night]

i mean, different guns reacting differently to armor was something that was planned at some point

it kinda forces people to know their surroundings more, instead of making the game solely about who cain snapshot the fastest, which my idiot brain amuses in

but i do see the point

[distant cape]

It’s 127 players and almost none of them stay in place for more than ten seconds. You cannot magically predict what distribution of armour you’re going to run into unless you just take a flat average. And that defeats the purpose to begin with.

[merry whale]

engineer's whole thing is vehicle based class (destruction or repair) with a side of building & such

[twin hazel]

Building is support. I don't think you know what an engineer has always done, in literally every iteration of the class. AT/AA, Demo, and repair.

the one thing that sticks out is actually the launcher.

[merry whale]

side of building refers to their shared access to barbed wire with support

[twin hazel]

one of the least used buildable, and one that is really only useful occasionally.

that's not a "side of building"

[merry whale]

(looks at the facts of how many counters it has)

it is a side dish at best of building lol

otherwise I never put it with his main uses

[twin hazel]

since it was added, I have seen like 30 total barbed wire setups. almost always put down by support, because noone likes building if you aren't support

[merry whale]

simply made a note that he has above average access

[twin hazel]

that would be fair I guess.

[merry whale]

But to the point, I am still a guy who feels assault or support should get armor repair

[twin hazel]

i'm leaning for assault

give them a box too

[merry whale]

recon feels like a waste to get it in honesty, with medic already having healing, Engineer has his pick of RPGs & vehicle repairs

and leader is disabled

We could also just do a both option similar to support

[twin hazel]

recon should be able to actually do recon and not just be "sniper class"

[merry whale]

where assault or support gets a small box only which can repair one half of the armor (helmet or chest) and the other gets the big box for both

Recon wise, I feel he needs a spotting system update to shine

[twin hazel]

I don't think reparing half armor of half your armor is a good idea

[merry whale]

but most would still play him as a sniper

to clarify DD20

I meant half as in the helmet or the chest

not the amount

[twin hazel]

yeah most would play as a sniper, but being able to things other than sniper while actually being a proper recon would be nice

[merry whale]

so fully repairable to either but the small box limits which you can repair

So either the helmet or the chest

[twin hazel]

would be chest then

helmet is not nearly as important to most people

[merry whale]

the big box able to fully repair both

and lets us give the small to one, the big to the other

[twin hazel]

yeah, I do still like my idea of it being droppable only, like the medic box while dropped

[merry whale]

I am up for that

main difference I would say it needs is the XP gain when you have a guy repair his armor

[twin hazel]

assault gonna get a grenade box or something lik bf

yeah box on the ground should count for at least resupplying like the ammo box

[merry whale]

I would also add possibly being able to pick up the box

[twin hazel]

but I don't think it current does so?

you can pick up every other box I think

[merry whale]

Medkit doesn't give any XP on ground to knowledge

[twin hazel]

actually I don't thing ammo box can

but you can with the medic one

[merry whale]

you can't pick up any ammo box

once tossed it is effectively gone from your inventory

[twin hazel]

which makes sense, cause then it would be infinite

[merry whale]

possibly

A simple solution is give it a supply amount for when the box is on the ground

[twin hazel]

or just make it exactly like the medic box instead

[merry whale]

have a default and add a multiplier for every gadget slot

[twin hazel]

oh still on the ammo boxes

[merry whale]

Than allow you to pick it up via some key

whoops

[twin hazel]

yeah, with how many are on the ground at a time

[merry whale]

well I feel stupid now lol

[twin hazel]

that sounds like alot of data to keep track of

[merry whale]

Not really

1 box per support

box has X amount of supplies

[twin hazel]

2 boxes per support no?

[merry whale]

The change in my head makes every gadget slot expands the supplies in the box

so say default size is 100

2 gadget slots would be 200

[twin hazel]

oh instead of points for each indiviual thing

[merry whale]

3 would be 300

etc

[twin hazel]

just total points

[merry whale]

Yep

idea yonked from squad's rifleman

[twin hazel]

ehhhhh

it could work yeah

but really

[merry whale]

simple enough system

could display the supplies

[twin hazel]

the box is for gadgets than it is for ammo

[merry whale]

allows you to pick up box too

Aye fair

supplies are only used on the non primary & secondaries

[twin hazel]

with squads thing, they would have alot more access to the gadgets

[merry whale]

it is based on the gadget in question I suppose

so a RPG rocket would cost more than a bandage as a example

(and the precise rockets could be priced differently on the supplies)

[twin hazel]

true, but instead of only able to resupply one engy, there would be alot more rockets in that box, unless the number of points goes way down

each slot had like 200 points default right?

[merry whale]

unsure as of current

[twin hazel]

I do think they are all equal in points

but the various things cost alot more

has alot of bullets, probably more than a squad will need for a while, but only one engy worth of rockets

[merry whale]

possibly

again depends how the balance for it goes

[twin hazel]

true.

[merry whale]

and should we take this to the ammobox feedback

[twin hazel]

but back to armor.

[merry whale]

aye fair

armor wise I do agree it should've be a stream

[twin hazel]

medic box but for armor, only usable while dropped

[merry whale]

sounds good

[twin hazel]

and since armor does have an hp system, should be limited to maybe 20 points of armor a tick

so you don't lose sight of a support and suddenly he is completely fresh

nice and simple I think.

[merry whale]

I am up for that

[twin hazel]

I'm still thinking it should be on assault to expand what it can do, since support not bringing ammo would be a detriment to team play

(speaking of, why does big boy get the small box too?)

[neon summit]

guys, #1138399550210576466

wait

maybe not

[random monolith]

(cant type to vehicle feedback)so:

vehicle mobility hit

firing a explosive to a vehicles engine or track or wheel
that needs to be repaired outside of vehicle with repair tool or move so slow with that vehicle
i tried to keep it simple as possible

[twin hazel]

only if rpgs and c4 spam is changed

[sand dagger]

With a suggestion like this, you’re thinking armor would not be knocked off?

[timid night]

yes, as it stands, armor is a big debuff in the form of movement, that remains with you even as the actual benefit is removed, it makes it's usage very inconsistent, since it's pretty much a one fight 'buff/debuff' combo, that then immediately turns into solely a debuff

and while some people talked about removing the movement penalty as the armor is shot off, i don't think that would work very well, since it would just be the game passively sidegrading everyone to having no armor as they play

[sand dagger]

I think I’m in favor of something like your suggestion compared to what we currently have, current one is bad for the obvious reasons you explain.

[weary condor]

I'm just gonna make a copypaste since y'all keep bringing up armor as damage reduction.

Armor is mechanically interesting rn. I don't want a boring all-over-the-body forever reduction, because it WILL become all-encompassing and super impactful on TTK/BTK and the overall experience.

Any FPS I've played with a damage-reduction choice, like Painkiller in CoD and Nanoweave in Planetside 2, has always been super meta, and everyone has always complained about it. Flat or percentage permanent damage reduction is NOT THE ANSWER for armor's design. It's a TERRIBLE move.

Literally the only problem that needs to be fixed is armor's benefit's longevity (one-and-done) compared to its drawback's longevity (forever slow).
And THAT problem can be fixed in an actually interesting way by giving Engi a bandage-like gadget that slaps armor and helmets back onto people.

An Engi with the bandage-like gadget (timed heal not a slow incremental heal), him slapping helmets on people and shoving more plates in their armor, is more interesting and more balanced 'cause like, it's team play and you can't just at-will give and take the benefits and drawbacks of armor away. It'd make it only slightly buff armor's balance but make it way more attractive as a choice.

[twin hazel]

if its for assault instead of engi, sure. this is literally what we just spoke of less than 20 messages ago.

[weary condor]

More honestly, I don't care what the solution is, so long as it's NOT fucking damage reduction.

It also might be neat on multiple classes

[quasi gyro]

I really wish it was for Assault instead of Engie because it would then give every class (Except Recon) a tool that directly helps the team. Medic can heal, Support can give ammo, Assault can repair armor, Engie can repair vehicles.

One thing that really irks me about armor in general, particularly helmets, is how when they break you're no longer really wearing them anymore (They fly off your head) but you still suffer the penalties from wearing them, such as ADS speed and movespeed. That's lame as hell.

Also side note a HUD icon to know when you still have armor would be very handy too

Could be a simple thingy on the corner or your equipment list that displays a 'helmet' and a 'vest' icon, which have a red line crossed over them when they're broken, and no line when they're still functional.

[merry whale]

support or assault I would be happy with (or both with discussed idea) , Engineer kinda already has a nice full kit

[merry whale]

hmm could start as green for 90% or more, yellow for 89% to 26% and red at 25% to 0.1% (with 0% being a faded gray outline)

[quasi gyro]

Seems a bit too complicated considering most helmets and vests break in 1-2 shots from most weapons.

Only Heavy and Exo armor can consistently survive more than a single shot

[merry whale]

Well the idea is so you got a general idea of "Hey my armor is getting low"

[quasi gyro]

Yee

[merry whale]

rather than either a Yes I have armor or a no I don't

[quasi gyro]

Maybe a simple white icon if it's 51-100%, an ❗ over the icon if it's below 50% and an ❌ if it's broken

Color coding can be tricky because some people are colorblind

An ❗ and ❌ system is more colorblindness-friendly

[merry whale]

Aye fair, be it I feel many can see a difference + there is a reason we have color blind modes

[quasi gyro]

True

[merry whale]

could just be a basic difference of the green starts fairly bright

and each color darkens

[quasi gyro]

You make a good point yeah

[merry whale]

til you get to the faded translucent gray

[dense juniper]

Waiting for the day medic and suppor get combined and given the armor repair box but that's probably never

[merry whale]

(Starts to think you want a far different game)

[dense juniper]

I want oki to make his mind up with the direction of the game instead of pissing off both sides

[merry whale]

will say this, I agree on making up his mind on direction, but I do not feel this is a issue of he is in middle of both sides, more the game has issues that need fixed (And several of them, as a example squad spawns)

[dense juniper]

A few

Tbh idc what happens with armor just remove exo ffs

[long pollen]

CoD is a deathstreak, that's supposed to be high impact by design. And Planetside 2 had a patently idiotic implementation where nanoweave gave no penalties and it competed against the most irrelevant bonuses possible.

Nobody ever complained about armor in BL:R where it made players span the 150 to 250 HP range as a flat bonus, because each armor type was balanced out by also having effects on the amount of gear you could carry, movement speed and stamina.

CS:GO is an obvious example of high impact armor which is less directly tied to gear restrictions but nonetheless is widely regarded as involving reasonable tradeoffs.

And if you're going to push for further team-based interdependency, then it's reasonable to compare against titles like Overwatch or TF2 where differences in durability are a key balancing factor that serves to give classes a distinct role.

Obviously we don't want to have such extreme differences, so the armor bonuses would correspondingly not be as large.

[dense juniper]

Aint no way i get babied by someone pulling out csgo and ow2

[merry whale]

at the time (prior to it's several nerfs & changes) it's only competitor was flak armor & Advanced shield recharger

(nerfs were a headshots bypass it, 10% or 20% slow, and finally changing the small arms to snipers only & remove the slow)

[dense juniper]

tfw just seen the csgo armor having resonable trades offs (the only fuckin tradeoff is fucking money)

[merry whale]

(to clarify, Nanoweave had a 20% DR perm on the body for most of it's life span)

[merry whale]

Will say depends on how pressed you are for cash (AKA winners of the last round will need less cash & can spend it more easily on armor since weapons don't need a restock unless you ditched them for some reason)

[dense juniper]

yeah but also ill say

this is fuckin bbr why is it being brought up in the first place

💀

[merry whale]

it is a armor system

could be used in discussion is my guess

[dense juniper]

it is indeed

but said drawback does not exist in bbr

[merry whale]

equally we could add the current armor ones

It is up for debate I suppose

[dense juniper]

?

[merry whale]

AKA add the current debuffs & see how it balances out

[dense juniper]

csgo armor but speed debuffs?

ig

armor models are way too hard to tell which is which tho apart from exo

[merry whale]

Suppose for exo we could simply make it heavy + explosive resistance

[dense juniper]

medium + explosive with heavy speed

[merry whale]

depends on the resistance in question

[dense juniper]

real

[twin hazel]

this guy really thinks exo of all things is a big problem when it gets melted by anything above ar in 2 shots, ars in 3 and smgs in 4 plus being constantly fucking slow.

[long pollen]

Yes, indeed. Flak armor which was largely irrelevant because before vehicles were turned into wet noodles it wouldn't save you from direct hits anyway. And ASC was only circumstantially useful in long distance poke situations, and became even less relevant through implants providing similar benefits and the medic deployable shield recharging field.

[dense juniper]

[weary condor]

Mmm, interesting take

[weary condor]

I'd still at least say I don't want it all over the body, it's more unique that way.

Also wasn't there one CoD where it was just a baseline perk, not a death streak? Just the OG MW

OW/TF2 are difficult to compare to these fps games because their designs are so wacky in comparison. Soldier and Demo are part of the top 3 tho, and they have chunkier HP pools. Scout is up there because crazy move speed and the fact all his competition are explosives so somewhat dodgeable

The Battlefield example does go hard tho

[timid night]

I still feel arms and legs should have a damage modifier, as it stands getting fast kills via just going center mass is both way too fast and counterintuitive considering chest shots will probably hit armor
If it's harder to deal full damage to players, you can have a system that rewards careful aiming over "eh, just hold down the mouse"

[neon summit]

Wait, you want arms and legs to take more damage?

[timid night]

No, opposite, a multiplier of 0.75, should have specified lol

[neon summit]

Okay good lol I was about to say

[timid night]

Makes it so you actually gotta aim your shots well, and stops people shooting legs to avoid armor

[supple pulsar]

Hmm well if you are gonna aim body cuz of the limb modifier. Wouldnt damage be more inconsistent since your arms is still infront of your body.

How big are the arms again in this game? I actually cant remember if they are big or not cuz me not ingameq

[timid night]

Iirc, Phantom Forces did something interesting with this
They made it so if the shot reaches your torso anyway, it also deals torso damage
With that happening, and arms generally being on the upper side of torsos, people could get a big damage zone aiming their shots right
It's more complicated to implement for sure, and it requires a steeper limb modifier, but making it so the bullet checks for the chest and does chest damage if it hits the chest after the arm is also a good option

It's overall just more rewarding and less "hold mouse 1 down and pull down mouse cause a foot shot is the same as a chest shot" way it is now

[supple pulsar]

Pubg also did something about this i just cant remember what they dif

[timid night]

But yeah, in general, I feel this game would benefit lots from rewarding shot placement more, rather than it being just head and torso

[distant cape]

I'd argue it would not

[supple pulsar]

I mean either get some limb modifier or armor covers your whole body

[distant cape]

torso is easier to aim for than limbs

so if you switched from limbs to torso it would not make aiming harder

[timid night]

It's not about what's easiest
It's about giving the shooter something they need to keep in mind to avoid, that will then punish them if they ignore and reward them if they don't, like avoiding hitting helmets

And you may not be taking into account the area that legs and arms account for as well, because they aren't exactly small

[supple pulsar]

I still think armor covering the whole body + limb is they way to go for consistency

Especially how big the models are

Compared to other shooters

[distant cape]

right now we have that already

in terms of chest

[fringe wren]

They reworked arms so that if the enemy player shot their arm, it would pen the arm and hit the torso instead if they were standing head on.

But if you were shot at a angle where it was not possible to hit the chest, you'd just hit the arms for their usual damage.

Or something to that effect.

[grave shard]

support armor sucks ass
i doesn't block anything
let alone let you move

[merry whale]

the resist shield strategy (the suit slot was always a ASC or a flak, nanoweave only helped between the resist shields at best)

[merry whale]

debatable, aim for upper chest for arm shots, the legs are only hard to hit if they use cover & not rush around (Add the people drop shotting, leg shots tend to include headshots)

[merry whale]

most of the chest for all but exo

[random marten]

So, my idea is that there could be different types of armor, Kevlar: high hp but only blocks a limited amount of damage
ceramic: blocks everything up to its health
steel: high health but heavy, not as good as ceramic at blocking everything

[limber pewter]

i think that, until we can get a proper armour stat for all the guns, perhaps armour could work like this;
Durability represents two things. One is amount of damage that armour piece will block. But it would also represent the number of times the armour piece can get shot before being destroyed.

arrr, competion spotted, cap'n!

[random marten]

Toughness = amount of shots armor can take
Hardness = amount of damage in a single shot it can stop

[limber pewter]

I.E.; A gun dealing 30 damage shoots an armour piece with a durability of 20. 10 damage would pass through, the durability is decreased to 19. next should would deal 11 damage, and bring durability down to 18. etc etc.

[random marten]

Ceramic: high hardness low toughness
Steel: mid hardness high toughness high weight (slow)
Kevlar: low hardness high toughness

[limber pewter]

of course, armour values would need to be moved around and generally brought down, but this would be way less of a "extra health you cant get back" gimmick

[random marten]

Yeah

[limber pewter]

(now lemme read through your suggestion lmao)

from what i can tell, yours would be sort of "the next step" of my idea?

[random marten]

Yeah hopefully

But for either of these to work then there would need to be a hefty damage reduction to hits to the extremities

[limber pewter]

yeah. exo having no additional protection for the legs and arms vs NO FUCKING ARMOUR is a joke

exo need a flat 10% reduction to arm and leg damage if you ask me

[random marten]

I think that the way it should work is that hits to the arms and legs should just deal at least 40% less damage

[limber pewter]

40% seems like a lot tbh. tho exo is very very slow... yeah somewhere between 10-40%. likely wont be able to find the sweet spot without implementation

[random marten]

25% maybe?

[limber pewter]

probably a good starting point

0% is just way too little 💀

[merry whale]

interesting idea

[limber pewter]

yeah, certainly not what the end-product would be, but more of a step in some sort of direction

[merry whale]

hey there is a reason there is a miniumn viable product stage in prototyping

see how it looks

[random marten]

So, combination of our ideas:
So, say you have an gun that deals 30 reg damage and 1 armor damage (not vehicle armor damage) shoots an armour piece with a durability of 20. 10 damage would pass through, the durability is decreased to 19. next should would deal 11 damage, and bring durability down to 18. etc etc.

Ceramic: armor takes 4-8x armor damage and stops armor health times 5 damage.
Kevlar: Armor takes
1/2 damage and stops armor health/2 damage.
Composite(default): Armor takes full damage, regular damage gets reduced by armor health.

[merry whale]

get a feel/idea

[random marten]

What do you think?

[limber pewter]

hm. what exactly does the '2 armour' damage do in the example at the top there?

[random marten]

Whoops, I changed that and then forgot to change it back

[supple pulsar]

so its like cs

[random marten]

Oh cool, didn't realize, never played cs

[supple pulsar]

yeah cs has like if a gun has 50% armor penetration 50% of the damage goes to hp 50% goes to the armor hp

[random marten]

Oh, no, my suggestion is different, subtractive instead of multiplicitive, and also damage to armor is a separate stat

[supple pulsar]

i mean the concept is same

[round sorrel]

Also armors should block slightly more damage from smaller calibers, not just because it's realistic but because it will help diversify the current meta. In combination with multiple armor materials this could create actually interesting build choices and tradeoffs, like ceramic would be really good for surviving slow firing heavy hitting guns, but quickly break down against an SMG up close. Whereas Kevlar or steel would absorb small calibers more repeatedly, at the cost of Kevlar offering poor damage reduction against heavy weapons, and steel blocking a lot of damage from all sorts of weapons, but being restricted to the slowest heavy / exo armors, and costing more armor supply boxes (if they ever add those) to replenish.

[distant cape]

That doesn’t make interesting build choices because the game is far too unpredictable for that to make sense.

It just means everyone should choose the most reliable one, but even then fights are going to have a whole lot more randomness to them with that

Lowers skill ceiling and makes fights feel less fair

You cannot select a loadout to counter a specific thing in a lobby with 127 enemies who don’t stay in the same place for more than a few seconds

[merry whale]

suppose it depends

everything has averages

Games have a meta & sets of meta weapons

[distant cape]

Yes
But it will be less fun as long as anyone is using options which affect some things more than others effectively at random

[merry whale]

Ones which you can setup to help against (AKA as a example prior to latest patch, you had a large deal of UMPs,Fals & such)

I assume with that idea, it would be mainly around the chest & head with legs & arms still being uneffected but I am unsure

But the point I am trying to make is, weapons can be more predicted based on map & meta/meta weapon sets

So not entirely random

like for example if I asked you most common sniper rifle?

you may answer M200

[distant cape]

They really can’t. Every “meta” weapon is quite different from the others, and the majority don’t use those anyway
And what’s the point of having 3 classes of armour if everyone should only use 1

[distant cape]

I have no data

[merry whale]

Meta weapons tend to be around 600-650 RPM that can 3 tap to unarmored chest (So 34-40 esh)

with exceptions

(and looking at full autos)

[distant cape]

That is 3 of them

There are a huge number of viable guns

[merry whale]

true

[distant cape]

And most people do not use those

A surprisingly high number of people use even weapons that are just bad

[merry whale]

Say that durning the old vector meta lol

[distant cape]

Even then, it was like 1/3 of people max

[merry whale]

But to the point

I feel it is semi predictable be it squad spawns don't help matters in this to a degree (mixed with the current sitution in general)

[distant cape]

And the same problem applies to guns

Whichever gun you’re using, you just have to roll a dice every time you go into a fight to see if their armour just happens to counter your gun

That is not fun.

[sick iris]

Hi everyone, saw a lot of different feedback and ideas and wanted to add my 5 cents on this.

From my perspective the head armor is working good, it gives you protection from random HS in the middle of nowhere but cant save you from this more then once or twice, while heavy helmets can hold even 1-2 fire-fights depending on the amount of shots pointed to the head.

The problems arise mostly with body armour and this is the reasons of why I feel this way:

1. Its hard to see on player model. There are tons of different customisations to armor and character skin, which makes it impossible to detect armor on a body and quicky aim to openings in it.

2. There is no explanaition on how it works in game. All we get is durability, but even after 100 hours of gameplay I still dont know how it works. Is it taking 100% of damage or only part of it? is it holding X amount of shots or X amount of damage? More clarity in the game would be nice to have.

3. It helps mostly on your first fight in this life, after this you cant count on it, so it is easier to just take constant speed over armor in most cases.

4. Its unintuitive to switch. It would be nice to have a rework of the character customisation UI, as it is hard to exit the menu of specific item as the only "back" button is actually exit button and I pressed this one A LOT.

Overall I feel as armor for now is mostly adding randomness and negative emotions as it is hard to adjust my playstyle to use it. I would like to see some changes to it, but for now the best options I saw on this thread is to change it to constant damage reduction without durability or to remove it from the game.

[sour pivot]

You can sorta press a "back button" in customization menus by clicking on the slot you're customizing. So for armour you just click on the chest slot, and so on. Not ideal at all and I agree we need a MUCH less obtuse way to "go back" in menus, but for now that's what we got

[dry cliff]

Just let us right click to do it

Right click goes back a menu

[limber pewter]

yeh im 100% behind clarifying how the fuck armour works. as a noob, you see things like "durability" "armour damage" L-ARMOUR DAMAGE?!". it leads to literally hundreds of hours spent not knowing its literally as simple as "its a bit of extra health, yo"

[dry cliff]

Pretty sure he renamed those

But I agree

[limber pewter]

oh my god he did

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

[dry cliff]

Typical battlebit players

Don't even play the game smh

[limber pewter]

yah. not at all. not even worth playing tbh

[dry cliff]

That's wild man

Oh wait

You've been in my games lol

I always noted when I saw you

Wild

[limber pewter]

ye. id imagine a lot of people just know me as "that one really fucking annoying MSR guy"

[dry cliff]

I just know you as the guy with the sameish name

[limber pewter]

yeyey lmao

except for me, its fucking impossible to introduce myself without making a meme of myself

its also impossible for me to effectively communicate that i am not found

because that too is just a meme

[dry cliff]

Rookie mistake

[grave shard]

too relatable

[limber pewter]

"hi im lost" "YEAH I BET YOU ARE"

"help im lost" "yes, youre lost. we know"

[dry cliff]

Truly the most painful thing is actually being lost

[limber pewter]

REAL

the number of times i got lost and never got help as a noob because of my name...

[grave shard]

[hexed idol]

I can't remember if I already commented this here but I'd like to see a speed boost for heavier armors when they break.

[dry cliff]

Wouldn't we all

[hexed idol]

When exo helm or vest breaks, you get a 2.5% speed / aim boost each.

I hate moving so slow even when I have no armor but I wanna be juggernaut

[dry cliff]

I wouldn't mind if it was like a tiny bit. Wouldn't match the medium armors, but still wouldn't be quite as slow

I think that'd be fine. You're still going to be slower than everyone, but you're not useless once your armor breaks

[grave shard]

that's still slow af 💀

[timid night]

That is just the game forcing a sidegrade on everyone
It would be like your gun swapping class every time you have to reload

You shouldn't become faster, your armor just shouldn't break, even if it's not as effective as armor as a tradeoff

Granted, the game would need to compress the speed ranges at which people can run first to actually make them balanced

But also, the idea of exo being just tankier heavy armor is kinda boring and not really fun to use or go against
Make it heavy armor level protection, but with blast resist

So it can actually do something interesting in resisting grenade and c4 spam a bit

[twin hazel]

just change how speed actually works. armor just multiplies your base speed.

[hexed idol]

That's interesting.

[twin hazel]

I rather we keep the armor that breaks, but we need a way to replenish it.

[long pollen]

I agree that straight up +tankiness would be annoying (even tho I would love it :´3) but what could still fit is increased reliability via further reduced limb damage (yes I am assuming limb damage will already be a thing as it should always have been) or no bleeding from body shots

[dry cliff]

Maybe a passive for support could be general damage reduction from armor and it won't break if you're wearing exo armor. Support could then be given an armor pack he can put down for others so they can refill their armor that does break

Or maybe supports armor last 2x as long, and it refills off said armor packs

Just throwing around some wack solutions for ideas

I like the idea of refilling armor still. And it'd give support a super important role if their exo armor simply provided damage reduction but doesn't break as a passive. You'd need to be wearing the full armor for the passive to happen

[feral vine]

I think the armor should just be reworked into just clean HP instead of the current system. Other games attempted this kind of armor system before and reverted back to just more HP. Rainbow 6 Siege did this at some point if i remember correctly.

[dry cliff]

It could work fine as just HP. Honestly as long as it's consistent to kill someone I think it's fine

[twin hazel]

it was always that way? they changed it because speed, rather than armor.

[dense juniper]

Siege was dr but changed to equivalent in hp iirc because its was unintuitive or something

[dry cliff]

I think he means literally just make armor HP

so if you have heavy armor you have 160 hp or something

[twin hazel]

oh yeah its been a long while., there was resistances at one point wasn't there.

[daring badge]

Armor isn't getting buffed while exo exists

Arguably, neither is support

[twin hazel]

just let us repair it with a gadget box. tell us when its broken. just that alone will make anything above normal feel alot better.

[long pollen]

This is how Blacklight Retribution did it as well and it worked fine. Problem here is it would make bandages a lot worse, while %DR would not affect that.

[dry cliff]

Just make bandages heal 40% of your max hp idk. Or that's the trade off for more hp

[twin hazel]

armor turning into hp is just boring

[dry cliff]

I mean. It's more about what works better in this case

I would prefer to have a difference personally too

[random marten]

So, here are a few ideas I had as to how armor in this game could be reworked:

Google drive link in a weird way so it will send
/spreadsheets/d/14QxluPWeDWfpNBlANXfutPzqv0iHUUQWCJEyEESW1OA/edit?usp=drivesdk

[grave shard]

i'm not reading all that xD
but probably smth good in there

[dry cliff]

I ain't downloading that lmao

[random marten]

See google drive link

[grave shard]

i did, it ain't a virus

[dry cliff]

Nah

Transpose it in 30 words or less

[random marten]

Steel can't break, penetration based on L-armor dmg
Iron is the same but can be broken by l-armor dmg
Hard is iamnumber31 (aka lost)'s suggestion.
Brittle is hard but the armor also takes regular dmg/3.

But not all of these

Just one

[dry cliff]

Minecraft names. I like it

[random marten]

I didn't get to kevlar

[dry cliff]

Good job transposing them

[random marten]

Kevlar is takes damage the same as hard but the damage the player takes is based solely on ADmg

[dry cliff]

Are these different things you'd equip?

[random marten]

No, they're meant to be separate possibilities

[merry whale]

HG stupid ideas electric boogaloo

1. make arm & leg armor
2. allow repair

simple & easy at this rate

[random marten]

Repair: yes
Leg & arm armor: No, just make it so hits there do less damage to incentivise aiming

[merry whale]

could still do the weak points ina rmor similar to what we got now

Just arms cover aroud half the chest

So aimming for headshots will also net some arm shots to say the least

[random marten]

Neck and groin.

[merry whale]

just asked a guy to do a basic aim towards me

you can see how much those arms cover

[random marten]

Hmm, I heard of someone else suggesting that bullets could go through arms and if they don't hit anything else after then they do reduced dmg

[merry whale]

heard a idea like that but it was if a shot hit a arm, it would do a secondary check & see if it would hit the chest

if it hit the chest as well it would be treated as you hit the chest

[dry cliff]

Leg armor would be cool

[daring badge]

oh this isn't even as bad as it gets, you should see the hitbox while prone

courtesy of sexy babe @jade latch

[merry whale]

(looks at the fact exo armor is suppose to help when using bipod)

(looks at those arms blocking your entire chest & only leaving the head)

[dense juniper]

(Looks at the fact exo "isnt a problem" somehow)

Itd be so over if armor just covered arms 🗿

[daring badge]

it'd be so over if they did literally anything with armor

[dense juniper]

remove it

[daring badge]

I wish

But people are attached tos it so can't remove it anymore

[merry whale]

not can't

[daring badge]

well, won't

[merry whale]

it can be removed if the devs desire

and the community won't want it removed

but it is up to oki & co

[daring badge]

Oki has been pretty community centric and avoiding lashback where possible

so anything controversial isn't added

cept like, L86 change I guess but that was a pretty specific one

[dense juniper]

Progression:

[daring badge]

what about it

Unless you mean with EA

in which case since then

[dense juniper]

[long pollen]

cope

[long pollen]

Is it really much different from a "real" hitbox tho? The chunkiness of the arm ends up covering about the same area, just looks different due to elbow position

[long pollen]

Same for prone position, the realistic position exposes more chest area but also has a higher profile overall, while the in-game prone has a lower profile that leaves no room for a chest hitbox

Crouching seems to push the arms down and the body forward so the armor hitbox is more relevant. Main problem is that due to bipod goofiness, there's almost no place where you can use it in a crouched position.

[limber pewter]

hell, most places you can barely use it when standing

[random marten]

Bipod can really only be reliably used while prone

[grave shard]

even then you're better of with a grip...

[dry cliff]

What is this talk

[limber pewter]

Support main talk. Not like anyone else uses armour anyway, so it's kind of to be expected

[lapis lark]

I think that the exo armour should have a -75% to explosives , -50% to smgs and the likes of those to make it better

R now the only purpose is exo helmet to not get 1 shot

[merry whale]

excluding M200 snipers

[merry whale]

being honest I get that, equally the game currently treats arm shots equal to exposed chest shots

and if we don't get limb multipliers or etc, individual limb (or just arm & leg) armor + the ability to repair armor sounds like a decent enough alternative

[dry cliff]

limbs should have different damages for sure

reward accuracy a tiny bit more, and make armor more important

[twin hazel]

the only thing I see with that is that the arms will block damage from the body when they are up

either making a sure kill, not, or killing you through your armor despite them shooting at your chest

[dense juniper]

Or just

Have armor cover arms 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[dry cliff]

Actually yea, limbs could cover the chest, so lower arms would be chest damage probs

This is a pretty normal solution I think in a lot of games

Or they just make arms fully chest dmg

[supple pulsar]

make any limbs same damage as body and gets covered with armor

on any armor for consistency

[dry cliff]

I don't think modern soldiers wear armor literally everywhere though. I kind of like that it only covers your chest. You can just make legs take like x0.8 damage and I think it'd be fine

That's a pretty normal thing too in shooters I believe, lower leg damage

[dense juniper]

Normal solution is just pass through

[dry cliff]

Exo I'm down for leg armor tho

[supple pulsar]

doesnt need to be irl

comparison

doesnt need to be visual there to just cover the whole body with armor

[dry cliff]

Yea, I just prefer it match up visually like the exo helms do

If you wear the open face one you can get shot in the face lol

[twin hazel]

when is facewear gonna be an option?

[dry cliff]

Hockey mask when?

[twin hazel]

I honestly just want to be able to split hats/helmets from the various masks and sunglasses we have access too. doesn't even need to be special, just what we got already, but able to be worn with other hats and the like.

[hushed panther]

exo needs arms more than legs

your arms are in front of your chest when you're aiming

[twin hazel]

but that transfers to chest anyway, so not really an argument I think

[hard valve]

• Being able to tank a bolt sniper in the head as a support is a bad idea in general, a DMR why not like but not a bolt. First thing you earn absolutely 0 point to destroy the helmet, Second you'll die if you're close enough or just shot for nothing. It's bad really.
• Adding assistances points when an ally kill a target that looses its armour because you shot on

[grave shard]

support already sucks enough, you get assists btw and being so close to a support that he can easily kill you shouldn't happen when using a sniper

[hard valve]

It doesn't suck, I did some really great game with it, the problem is more about others things like slow bandage imo. The armor often you give you the advantage on pure 1v1 and providing a lot of ammo is insane for the teammates close to you and for you (spamming grenades yay).

Making unbalance things on accessories or weapons because you don't know how to balance is really not the idea, it'll actually create more problems which is the case now.
It's the only one game where you can tank a full headshot of a sniper on a BF-like and I think it's a real problem, the fact that you're not complaing about it is because you're not playing it, so it's not objective.

[grave shard]

i played recon a bunch and i played support a bunch, it's disgusting just 1sk killing an exo helmet with the rb m200, it sucks on the supports side aswell, you're slow af yet don't get any benefits it feels like
and no the weapons are mediocre at best

[hard valve]

you're completly wrong about that
MG36 is really strong, L86 is really strong, M249 is fairly good and Ultimax is a good weapon to actually laser on mid/long range
Saying it's medicore is completly out of purpose and almost could make people think it's unusable or bad.

Also saying it's disgusting to 1sk killing an exo helmet" IT IS A SNIPER RIFLE. In Every game it's OS in the head, you've to AIM the head. After a shot you can't do shit. Having the M200 OP doesn't mean that SSG would be OP if it could one shoot exo helmet in the head, specially when there's no many people playing support so the impact is fairly low.

[grave shard]

the mg36 just sucks.
the l86 got butchered
and the m249 is a worse m4 with better drop off and more bullets, these weapons are 10/10

[grave shard]

k then go on with your "support is op" bs meanwhile the consensus here is "support needs buffs", read the room maybe before making a fool of yourself with some of the worst takes ever

[hard valve]

The MG36 sucks and the L86 got butchered, M249 is worse M4.. What..? I think you're completly deluded at this point. I don't know what kind of players you are, what are the stats behind, how many hours you played FPS but you can ask more experimented players, MG36 and L86 are not bad, never, I never heard that and it's not the case. For M249 and Ultimax they got a very big max (giving possibilty to high kill feed) and fairly low recoil to maintain fire.

[hard valve]

Because I said support is OP. I'm happy to see that, you just transfom what I'm saying becuase you don't agree. It's fine.

[grave shard]

the m249 got worse recoil than the m4, the lmg, worse than the assault rifle in terms of recoil ofc
the l86 once had a 3sk but nahhh why should it have that, "yeet"
the mg36 has nothing to do with the guns it's supposed to be on top of really bad recoil + reload speed...

[merry whale]

Will say, aim for the legs than? (avoids all armor)

[merry whale]

Advantage in theroy to be blunt

To summarize the weaknesses of armor

1. You take full damage to arms & legs while bypassing all armor
2. your arms cover the majority of your chest when ADSed
3. you are slower
4. one time use
5. makes you react slower

[supple pulsar]

im fine with exo helmet getting 1 tap by snipers thats fine for me as long as its a long range skill

[hard valve]

So what are the use of changes if you've to find weird solution around it, it's not even a thing to aim for leg in a FPS

[merry whale]

mix in the fact support's weapons tend to do less DPS than their counterparts for various reasons

[supple pulsar]

but getting shredded by speed demon smg ton of ammo medic

no thx

[merry whale]

Tarkoav

[hard valve]

Same, it's the same stuff on all game, just that one that is different and I don't understand how there's people complaining about that.

[merry whale]

Planetside 2 has K cap ammo

[hard valve]

Not the case on Rust, Dayz, BF, you aim for the body/the head and not the legs

[merry whale]

The TFC sniper could slow enemies

by aimming at legs

[hard valve]

I played Tarkov a lot and you can check some big players like Aculite they never aim for the legs. So no. You're meming.

[merry whale]

You said wasn't a thing in a FPS, I simply gave examples

from different times & sub genres

also rocket launchers in general prefer to aim at feet

so I suppose that counts as aimming for the legs

[supple pulsar]

exo armor feel so bad right now cuz you either dying fast cuz of arm rng getting hit or some leg fetish aimer then your a turtle with aim down penalty

[dense juniper]

mans never heard of rips

[merry whale]

I have said the following before
the M249 is a worse M4A1 in all but vertical recoil by a wee bit & magazine size (DPS is the same but functionally reduced by over double horz recoil), MG36 is weaker than it's peers til the UMP got nerfed & even than things can be said

L86 is good dps but worse in handling while being in a odd heavy AR role now a days

Max is good in it's niche through, I'll give it that, keep in mind it fails when out of said niche

[merry whale]

Something something a bit ago was a "Leg Meta"

otherwise as stated prior arms cover the majority of the upper chest

So your chest armor is easily bypassed

helmet less so

Otherwise high magazines tend to be dimishing returns in a lot of cases

[hard valve]

Again, MG36 is same TTK as Famas so idk why you say it's bad, M249 don't have to be a better than a M4 in any world, it's a LMG not an AR, you can't have a weapon shooting further and with a 100mag and L86 is good too, actually people complain more about the movespeed (but it's the class basicly)
The only point is you're slower because of armor, but thanks to armour you can also win 1v1

[supple pulsar]

this is the case on all armor its just exo and heavy armor are like moving turtle targets

[merry whale]

I shall state this

1. The famas has better handling stats

so it can react faster & employ it's TTK better

[hard valve]

Lower mag, so lesser killfeed and less dmg for armour

[merry whale]

Armor doesn't make much of a point so we look at unarmored targets for body shots

[hard valve]

And it's completly wrong to think because you've like -0.02 aim down sight (or even 0.10) you'll employ its TTK better, it's PURE placebo

[merry whale]

Otherwise the famas is a 4 tap not a 3 tap

so lets look at the peers

[supple pulsar]

0.02 what? its more than that tho

[merry whale]

the fal at 40 & 650 rpm

[supple pulsar]

support has big penalty in aim down sight

lmao

[merry whale]

the groza, 650 rpm again, similar damage bracket

[hard valve]

Stop changing subject you were talking about the famas my friend 🙂

[merry whale]

equally support has slow ADS guns by a default

[merry whale]

you were talking of famas, I said it's peers

[hard valve]

FAL 20ammo mag, unusable recoil for midrange compared to ALL support weapons, mainly used CQC, low mid-range and have to tap fire (but you can do that with most weapon) but worse fall off dmg

[merry whale]

but to start with basics

the MG36 has a base of 0.3 ADS speed

before the downsides

compared to the Fal & co

it has less range compared to the fal

less RPM as well

and less damage

these are all objective facts

recoil wise, it does have some kick I will agree, equally most fights tend to be 50m or under

[hard valve]

So every support weapons should have higher TTK than FAL, bigger mag, and better recoil? That's what you're saying

[merry whale]

Who said that?

only you

[hard valve]

No you

[merry whale]

I am saying the MG36 is weaker than it's peers

keep in mind my wording

[hard valve]

It's not weaker

[merry whale]

because You are saying buff it

It is outright weaker in most cases to a Fal

the fal can employ it's DPS far faster

[hard valve]

You've 40mag and 0 recoil, so you can actually land all of your shoot in the dear HEAD of your ennemies

try to do same thing with FAL, I can't wait my friend

[merry whale]

35 mag?

also I keep hearing people complain about the MG36's recoil in various places This month

[hard valve]

Sorry 40* it's EVEN MORE

[merry whale]

okay?

Again magazines have some dimisning returns in value

[hard valve]

Yeah okay, mean you can kill a whole squad without reloading, fair

[merry whale]

So 3 shots, 8 people, mix in squad spawns, Nice logic

[hard valve]

ooooh ok.. people complain about MG36 recoil.. so.. FAL is ok?

[merry whale]

I am disputing your point about MG36 being a laser

[hard valve]

AAAH I said it's laser!

[merry whale]

So stop trying to twist my logic

[hard valve]

No no, you are doing that actually.

[merry whale]

to quote you said 0 recoil

[hard valve]

You were compairing to famas then FAL, so.. do it properly

[merry whale]

that implies laser

Hmm?

[hard valve]

Famas 25mag, FAL 20mag

[merry whale]

Now lets pull this back some

You started the MG36 comparison to the famas

I said some stuff you said I did the comparison

[hard valve]

Yep because it was same TTK

when Famas is actually harder to maintain because of higher ROF SO higher recoil/s

😉

[merry whale]

Okay?

[hard valve]

Yes. So where MG36 very bad boohooo

40mag, low ROF with not big recoil, same TTK as famas

Bad weapon, ok?

[merry whale]

Compares to peer

[hard valve]

actually better on armour than famas too

[merry whale]

Groza & the Fal

[hard valve]

you need more?

[merry whale]

answer

[hard valve]

So I just destroyed you on the famas point

Now, let's do other weapons, you said Groza and FAL

[merry whale]

Nope

[hard valve]

Right

[merry whale]

you didn't dent me even

[hard valve]

you're only arguing is "Okay?"

[merry whale]

no offense

[hard valve]

you were talking about objective dude

[merry whale]

you are acting a touch manic

[hard valve]

You're doing the same

[merry whale]

Not really

[hard valve]

Oh so me but not you

[merry whale]

But if you desire to start with the famas

1. it has faster reactions

[grave shard]

btw with the famas it doesn't matter to flunk one shot, different for the mg36 and the m249 not needing to be as good due to having 100rnds is the dumbest thing i've heard on this dc in a while

[hard valve]

So what were you talking about the Groza and FAL now that I proved you that famas I way harder to handle and have a very little mag so way harder to clean a whole squad AND also less stronger against armour

[merry whale]

so if you 1v1 a support, you win

he has less dps & if you do a fight with him, he'll lose because he simply takes Longer to employ his dps

secondly

[grave shard]

armor ded after one fight btw

[merry whale]

the famas needs 4 bullets to kill on a fast firing gun & idk where you are using your TTK value from

third the famas lets you move faster to avoid fire

or flank

or any other speed based tasks

which helps negate the magazine downsides

[hard valve]

I never said that, I actually said that LMG have to be good on sustaining fire, I never said that the reason it should be as good as high tier AR (because there's also way better AR, exactly like some SMG (PP19 reminder))

[merry whale]

Than we got the rest of those little details that make a Famas able to beat a MG36 far easier & faster

because in the end you can send more aim punch the MG36's way

than he can yours

you can skirmish, he can't

[hard valve]

And you've to take it into account because it's BF game where people spawn a lot so you'll face a lot of armour

[merry whale]

(Aims low,avoids armor)

[grave shard]

it can sustain fire, it just can't hit very effectively

[hard valve]

what little details?

[merry whale]

you don't listen do you?

[hard valve]

you're not aiming low on a pure 1v1 or very many ennemies because you don't swap to legs and heads and legs in a fight, if you tell me so you're a liar

[merry whale]

Well with heads you have arms

so barely a motion

otherwise you can ensure to avoid ALL armor on a slower moving,easier to hit target by aimming at legs

which does the same 100% damage as the arms & unarmored chest

So the famas will get first shot on target

[grave shard]

leg meta or outskilling dude
leg monching is easy, i do it all the time with weapons that don't benefit from hs

[merry whale]

famas will get first flinch by a result

famas can back out & than reengage if he desires

You get the idea Okami

Speed beats armor & the MG36 may on Paper have the same dps as a famas

But guess what?

MG36 lacks that reaction time,speed & other stats

and you are hit harder by missing than a famas

[hard valve]

Aaah the famas let's you move faster.. ok.. so you're telling me that'll dodge EVERYTIME against all players, every bullet because you've 5% more percent.. but actually on two guys ADSing and fighting you'll not win a fight because of 5%MS
Btw you were talking about the ADT which is 0.25 vs 0.30 MEANS you've to aim 0.05s I imagine you're superman with 20k hours pro-csgoplayer and will do that, but I doubt hard, actually I prefer that you shared me your profile page, and how many hours you've on that casual game.

[merry whale]

Who said dodge everytime?

[grave shard]

also funk one shot up and you're doneso

[merry whale]

also we are using anyone but support vs support right now

So it is a support(MG36) vs X(Famas)

[hard valve]

Let's ask Moukwa for example on that leg meta, pretty sure I'll tell you that most of the time he's not aiming for legs because when you lock an ennemy in vision you don't even think about "is it a support or not" even if you can if not CQC

[merry whale]

it is 0.3 base if you recall

This is prior to your penalties as a support

Which based on your comments prior will be with exo

Now i have heard you not make many good counter arguements

[hard valve]

Yep with Exo, with the armour. But dude.. you said the armour is bad.. so.. why not compairing with heavy or normal armour there? But you know, let's keep the exo and do the formula, even that ADT difference will not actually make it

[merry whale]

We will be using exo helmet

[grave shard]

i don't either but supports feet are just too nice to not gobble away
also isn't he one of the banned gromp clowns?

[hard valve]

Specially when on CQC for example, when you're experimented you can HIPFIRE so.. BOOOM, no more ADT 🙂

[merry whale]

That holds your ADS Decrease & is the only good bit of armor

So let start with following

support is slower

you can force him to sprint

sprint into hipfire takes time

[hard valve]

why clowns? If he's a experimented good player with high score and kills it's actually a good way to have an idea

[merry whale]

So guess what

[hard valve]

Like every class 🙂

[merry whale]

you can force him to move

& than make him have to ADS to get accurate fire

[grave shard]

debating a ban with the lead dev no less is a little clownish don't you think?

[merry whale]

So you lose that "Hipfire advantage"

[hard valve]

it's actually the common BBR spreadsheet with exact same TTK on famas and MG36 by Eleanor.. very weird to talk on the feedback if you're not even aware about a spreadsheet with all weapon stats

[merry whale]

now we are back at the famas has faster hipfire and ADS

I don't know which armor type you are even using Okami

So you are saying this gun has the same TTK as another without any context

[hard valve]

When you do a comparison.. I'll tell you that as a Datascientist, you compare things on the same pattern, for example same armour if you can, and if the class have penalties, you do the formula behind it, and then you try to see what's going on
That's exactly what I am doing here

[hard valve]

It's not any context, the 0.2s on FAMAS and MG36 is on 100Hp actually so not hitting armour (cool same thing then)

[grave shard]

you seem very butthurt because you got your cheeks clapped by a gigachad support main a bit to often

[merry whale]

Anyhow through

[hard valve]

And if you are hipfiring it, it removes the differences beetween the 2 weapons

[merry whale]

Okami if support is so good, why didn't we see them much prior to the 2x xp weekend

[grave shard]

ads time, missing shots, movement speed and so on xD

[merry whale]

But to the point

[hard valve]

So yeah, the MG36 can be the FAMAS, even if you're not willing to think so it's fine, it's written
And other thing the FAMAS has a way higher recoil BECAUSE of the RoF and tinier mag
So after dealing with a 1v1 or 1v2, you're forced to reload, which is not the case with the MG36

[merry whale]

You are using a 1.4 & 1.0 recoil gun

we can use attachments to simply reduce it's recoil further

[hard valve]

same thing with both guns

[merry whale]

same can be said for the MG36

Nice

jinx

[hard valve]

and actually the more you've recoil, the more you benefit from attachements 🙂

because it's %

but you've higher RoF, you've more recoil/s

[merry whale]

Aye I get that

[hard valve]

So yeah, fact done on Famas, and as I said you were wrong

[merry whale]

nice

simply saying I am wrong

[hard valve]

Want to go on an other weapon ?

[merry whale]

ignoring the other details I mentioned

[hard valve]

I answered to all

[merry whale]

nice fail on the whole recoil bit

[hard valve]

maybe you didn't read because you're focused to be right, but problem, with the stats in front of us..

you want the spreadsheet? I mean.. you look like a big theorycrafter you don't even have the gun spreadsheet with TTK..

seems.. kinda.. bad? to talk about feedback and balancing mh

[merry whale]

so you enjoy trying to insult me

and I stated my confusion prior

since I didn't know whose you use & what armor among other factors

[hard valve]

So Famas, higher recoil because RoF, little mag, worse fall off dmg, but higher ADT and 5% movespeed (on the weapon)

what's the other weapon

[merry whale]

So Famas

[hard valve]

I talked about the 0.2s TTK which is the 100Hp ttk

[merry whale]

Faster movement & reactions, easier to flank & the MG36 suffers against because slower eraction

Aye I get that now

[hard valve]

5% movespeed so.. more movement and more reaction?

[merry whale]

5% base

[hard valve]

So when you move faster, you've more reaction?

[merry whale]

without accounting for all of support's other issues

[hard valve]

Or you're talking about ADT

No no no.. not sentences, numbers

[grave shard]

it's a lot more, armor + backpack...

[hard valve]

What are the numbers

[merry whale]

Being honest I am unsure why you are talking in here if you don't know armor stats

[hard valve]

ON EXO ARMOUR. SO the Famas guy will not have that armour. And if you're talking about "leg meta" then why don't we just put all the stuff on the same armour.
What's the numbers, with the same armour?

Let's compare that

[hard valve]

You're saying many words, but here I'm the one talking about numbers, I don't very like politic so try to compare number please

[grave shard]

0.2 for both but mg36 has worse recoil, ads time and gets punished more for missing...

[hard valve]

So schlammjumper, did you actually, count the RoF and the recoil OR you're only talking about the recoil written on the weapon?

I'll give an example : if you've a weapon like a sniper you don't care about recoil, but if you're playing Skorpion evo with 2.5 recoil, that'll build a shit tons of recoil

[supple pulsar]

idk pretty sure high rof guns always wins

[grave shard]

ik recoil + firerate but the point still stands, even if it only was ads time

[merry whale]

(looks at the SMG meta we had for a while)

[hard valve]

what point

[grave shard]

not with the terrible hitreg we have rn, scorpion my beloved

[hard valve]

yeah because no recoil and high ttk weapons with same AR fall off almost

[merry whale]

for support the debuffs are a 7.5%,5% and another 7.5% to ADS & run speed

so 20% Debuff to both to begin with

[grave shard]

mg36 is worse than famas.

[merry whale]

as you stated bigger numbers get hit harder

[supple pulsar]

idk never had terrible hitreg or probably because im always using ak74 or aug

that i dont feel it

or ultimax

i only use slow rof guns lmao

[hard valve]

What numbers

[merry whale]

read

I gave you all of them

[hard valve]

Still no "MG36 - 45 vs Famas 36" for example

[merry whale]

otherwise a 0.3 base ADS