RPG7 / PG07 Tandem - Feedback

[compact umbra]

faction specific weapons should always have a similar counterpart in other factions

[rugged crypt]

ya i always thought that if there were 4 factions there could be a silly mode with 64 v 64 v 64 v 64 like we have the g3, ak, and fal so could have one of the middle eastern country military so could add them without adding that many guns and maybe something like a insurgent group that can have civilian themed armor options like a light vest thats just a low rated stab vest with a mag vest over it and can have most weopons available that are already in the game

could really also work on adding more differences to the factions when it is worked on

but ya rpg should have some skins to it like
frag gets skins for kills
heat gets skins for kills/enemy vehicles killed
tandem gets vehicle kills

[wanton crystal]

It’s an armored vehicle. You shouldn’t be able to solo them, their entire purpose is to be hard to kill from infantry. The fact so many things can be solved by a single player is an actual problem, not the other way around.

[bleak zealot]

Yeah, when so many things are made to be done by one player, while also being a 200+ player game, it gets pretty nuts

I would understand if it was balanced to be a 16v16 or 32v32 game since there are less people to do one thing

[cyan totem]

i don't think it should be impossible to solo armored vehicles, but it needs to be difficult. the odds shouldn't be in your favor

[bleak zealot]

Oh yeah there should still be a motive to it, but it shouldn't exactly be a point and click adventure

The only hint a tank driver gets after taking 80HP from one hit is a fairly wide blue damage marker, which doesn't help a lot when you didn't hear the shot or see a trail when you looked there

And top that with a pretty restricted 1st person camera attached to a slow turret

[cyan totem]

yeah, and the fact you can literally 1 tap an APC as infantry is comical. it's an insult to game balance

[bleak zealot]

And yeah you can have a spotter, but more often than not, they're not really reliable

[cyan totem]

tandem needs to be straight up deleted from the game

[bleak zealot]

I remember i spent all match with an AFK spotter so i couldn't have anyone help lol

[bleak zealot]

Honestly, i cant find a good solution without making it worse or too similar to Heat, so i kinda wanna agree

Since the main use for Tandems IRL is to get through ERA and such, other than that, they work pretty much the same to normal Heat rounds

[trim turret]

just make different armor classes for the vehicle so armor can be a multiplier rather than raw damage

true damage is always nearly impossible to balance for so many different things

[wanton crystal]

I would be fine with tandems as is if medic and sniper had c4 deleted. Maybe even support as well. Engineers and assault should be the only ones that can take on armor and succeed. It further cements their role in the game without making either class feel like worse versions of their current selves. And tbh medic has literally everything going for it that using anything else feels like you are kneecapping yourself.

[severe quest]

It has been two months but that still wasn’t enough time for you to read the last two sentences of the message.

[wanton crystal]

Oh I read it, just because you typed it doesn’t make it relevant. I know this is shocking to you, but not everything should be exactly how you want it, and you are also not the end all be all.

[severe quest]

I am the end all be all, sorry.

[wanton crystal]

Let me guess, your the owner of the bbc servers

[severe quest]

Nope

[wanton crystal]

I get you need a constant power fantasy or the mic is scary to use so basic teamwork and team composition is against how you like to play games, but maybe just maybe, the tanks and armored personnel carriers should have armor that’s not easy to deal with. Maybe learn basic teamwork and come back?

[severe quest]

No I think I’ll keep brutalizing armored vehicles with the tandem but I appreciate your suggestions

[wanton crystal]

Then get used to not killing tanks because they won’t leave spawn and spawn snipe all game. Glad your enjoyment is at the detriment to several game mechanics. Also glad that apps will turn into AA guns as they also won’t leave spawn and are only useful to kill helis at range.

[severe quest]

They can chill in their spawn if they want I’ll just never see them because I don’t hang out at the enemy spawn. I like to play objectives.

[wanton crystal]

So do I, which is why it’s a problem there’s no point in having armor push with infantry on objectives like actual armor does.

[severe quest]

That’s a problem indeed, but the answer is not just making it nigh impossible for solo players to deal with armor.

[cyan totem]

as i've said, it shouldn't be impossible, but it should be really hard

tandem is braindead

[wanton crystal]

They still can, you just don’t consider “avoidance” to be an answer when it very much is. Don’t like it? Play infantry conquest because that’s what you really want to play anyway if you don’t want to actually have to fight vehicles.

[severe quest]

I wouldn’t use the tandem if I didn’t want to fight vehicles.

The problem is that if solo players cannot effectively fight armor, it’s just going to make tank camping more effective. It’s not going to stop people from doing it.

[wanton crystal]

Nvm that you can carry tandems, and c4 or anti vehicle mines. You want brain dead solutions because you don’t want to strategize.

[wanton crystal]

If they are camping, then they arnt being effective anyway, so why bother at that point in general. Your whataboutisms are solved by rubbing two brain cells together and using the most basic communication skills.

I get you don’t want the answer to be “use your brain” but I can’t help if you can’t do basic things like communication.

[severe quest]

That’s not what a “whataboutism” is lol.

But regardless, I can agree to disagree.

I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere tbh.

[wanton crystal]

“What about if they just camp” I mean that’s the definition of whataboutism but go off king

[severe quest]

I do apologize for starting out as hostile as I was with my first response.

I started it.

[wanton crystal]

Mate if that’s the definition of aggressive then I’m a walking war crime.

[severe quest]

Canadian?

[wanton crystal]

Naw I’m just a c**t

But hey someone that knows Canadian war history and don’t assume they are nice, rare treat indeed.

[severe quest]

I could say the same

:)

[wanton crystal]

Pretty sure they should have just called the geniva convention the “shit Canada did and was kind of fucked up” conference

[severe quest]

Canadian checklist

[wanton crystal]

“You can’t execute pows” “alright so we won’t take pows”

“But sergeant they were unarmed and surrendered” “sorry I don’t speak bitch so I didn’t understand what they were saying” double taps pow

[severe quest]

At the risk of immediately rekindling the argument, I want to add one more thing.

I think the solution could be to both make RPGs generally (somewhat) less effective against armor, but also add something that can really punish armor if it stays in the same spot for too long. Like a BONUS strike that a squad can call in. That could hit any vehicle within whatever arbitrary radius it’s given, which means that it’s effective against vehicles that stay in the same spot and can’t be avoided by repositioning only slightly.

[wanton crystal]

An addition of mortars or mortar fire that squad leads could call down would fix both our issues, plus gives an actual counter to spawn snipers

Would also add another benifit of class diversity if it was on support like bf4, and would you know, make support actually support more.

Plus would also give a solution to the snipers that destroy stairwells making grappling the only other solution (even though it isn’t one practically. Wanna camp in a place no one can get to now? Hope you like indirect fire.

Idk how broken it would be in rush though, would give defending teams a lot of problems with holding the bomb sites if they get destroyed from mortar teams

[severe quest]

You could just not add it to rush. There are already certain things excluded from game modes like building being disabled in ctf.

[wanton crystal]

If it’s a point system like squad leads could drop a care package with it in it like they do with ammo, it would solve that problem, but would mean only squad leads could do it, and we both know how bad they usually are,

I would appreciate a solution that is less point and click, and requires actual effort, hopefully just slightly more effort then it would take for the tank to stay alive, but not so overwhelming it’s a moot point to try, I’m just so tired of tanks not tanking and just being an explosive sniper that can’t be counter snipped.

Likewise how I hated how the little bird required so much effort to counter, without it being useless in a new persons hand, as now with the little bird nerf it’s only decent in the top tier players, and completely pointless to everyone else. Yeah I know it’s a skill issue on my part, but littlebirds are unfun on both ends as it currently stands IMO.

Not saying the nerf wasn’t very much needed, but now I get maybe one or two kills at best or I just distract as I have to move so quickly neither one of can actually aim to hit each other, just spraying and praying from both the heli and the ground forces

[amber oasis]

I have read them, something about players needing to be able solo tanks because most players play solo.
Well then, if they play solo, in a team focused game, when they meet a tank, they will need to sufer through this incredibly harsh inconvenience of waiting 5 seconds to spawn on the nearest point to thier last death place.
I don't know how will they cope with THAT

[viscid haven]

They will just leave and repair.
Imagine thinking this doesn't count as "dealing with the vehicle". Apparently lizard brain needs big number to feel good about doing something that benefits the team.

[amber oasis]

Anything that takes the vehicle out of the fight is straight up win for the team. Even dying to force enemy tank to RTB for 3 min is extremely good trade.

Match lasts only 30m, that's 1/10 of it.

[bleak zealot]

Yeah it takes a hot while for a tnk to get back to base, repair, then return

And thats if the spawn barrier isn't surrounded by a team of engies hiding in bushes

[worthy lynx]

Tandem is the only reason i prefer BattleBit over BF4.
You simply dont feel powerless in a fight against armored vehicles. And it makes tanks and and all other transports to pay more attention to surroundings, not just farm frags.

[cyan totem]

"powerless"

HEAT is being not powerless. tandem is quite literally having an advantage over armored vehicles; in a team of up to 127 players, and near instant respawns (as opposed to vehicle respawns, which take minutes)

[amber oasis]

You never felt powerless against vehicles in BF's, excluding air ones and even then rarely

There were tools to deal with tanks/IFV's, you just needed to want to use them and not ignore vehicles while whining "how OP they are"

While in BBR single player is more effective at killing a tank than a FUCKING TANK

[bleak zealot]

For real, i be sitting in a tank trading shells with another one for 30 seconds only to have one of us wiped off the Earth by an engie

[wanton crystal]

This is how you tell everyone you only play recon

[trim turret]

recon got c4, so even then that cant be the case

[worthy lynx]

Maxed all classes, so it's a miss.

[worthy lynx]

Considering that I always carry C4 on all classes (because it's quite useful: making doors, demaking enemy groups) it's true.

But closer to reality. Tanks are basically support vehicles for infantry, as far as I know, but if it's otherwise, not gonna argue.

[wanton crystal]

You can lie through your teeth all you want, won’t change the fact your fooling exactly 0 people

[worthy lynx]

Dude, really? Okay, suit yourself.

[wanton crystal]

Literally the only play style that doesn’t have a counter is long range sniper, in which case, no shit you shouldn’t win that fight

[worthy lynx]

Okay, tell me then.

How can I, an engy class, destroy a tank in BF4 singlehandedly?

Every time you land a hit on it with any of rocket launchers, guy literally zooming out the danger zone for quick repairs fith repair tool (how does it called in English, torch?), except land mines.

[amber oasis]

You shoot at it. Preferably Javelin/with SAUV after someone painted it with soflam. If not Nlaw is very good.
There is also C4 jeep/quad
And the best option, of which many people forgot (and then whine that vehicles are OP), USE YOUR VEHICLES. You can solo MBT with AT build MBT or IFV with ATGM+sabot rounds

Then Attack jets and Helis just stomp at tanks

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, the little problem I came up with is that tank respawn, and your rockets/C4 are not. And as far as I remember, you can't resupply beside dying.

But anyway, I do love the existence of tandem. Because you actually run for a good shot to make it hit hard. And small ammo capacity makes it more balanced

And talking about vehicle survival at 127/127 servers is pointless. It's just a massacre for people and tanks/LAVs alike

[cyan totem]

"small ammo capacity makes it more balanced" fucking lol, lmao

this is what tandemtards actually tell themselves

if only there was a way to respawn on your squadmates near instantly, and if only it refilled all of your ammo

[worthy lynx]

Okay. Tank takes 22 DMG after getting tandem upfront.
44 when you land a side rear shot.

Count reload time, and you'll see that it's not that OP.

[cyan totem]

whatever helps you sleep at night my man

[worthy lynx]

Well, tank mains keep being upset after not being allowed to dominate the map

And I'm perfectly fine with that

[cyan totem]

you're just spiteful due to being shit on by tanks in other games

so you're living out your power fantasy of being able to 1v1 them with little to no effort

[worthy lynx]

Yeah. I guess I started whole feedback message with that

Besides, usually if you got the tank 1v1 with you, it means that this guy actually got lost after driving to the artillery position. Anywhere near the infantry, and you would likely be shot long before you could get a good position and land a good shot.

[amber oasis]

Tandem is a cruth, that's all

[worthy lynx]

So it's a punishment for being too reckless

[amber oasis]

APC can be one shotted

[worthy lynx]

And ACPs are way faster

[amber oasis]

doesn't matter when you are shoot at by 15 tandems, some one will hit

[worthy lynx]

I hardly see people using tandems

[amber oasis]

So you don't play conq it seems

[worthy lynx]

Personal record is two engies. And they were dangerous, yeah

[amber oasis]

A LOT of players use tandems, especiallyt when there is a good vehicle player in enemy team

You start doing well, everyone switches to tandems

[worthy lynx]

Not sure, maybe just different people, considering that it's 2 a.m. where I am

Most ppl use HEAT ones, against infantry

At least, I get shot with them

[trim turret]

man even with Engy as my most played class, Tandem is actually quite broken with little to no downsides other than it really only works on vehicles

[worthy lynx]

Isn't that's the whole point of tandem - being a good weapon against vehicles?

Besides, for me the BBR is more infantry focused game, so vehicles are a gimmick, rather than the main attack force

[trim turret]

yes a "good" weapon against vehicles not "one shot everything less than an APC, 2 shot an APC, and 3 shot a tank"

on top of vehicles just sucking in BBR (do notice I am talking purely front on shots.)

[worthy lynx]

Oh come on. If there is a well coordinated team of engies, who just fired 20 HEATs on you, you would vote to ban the HEAT then?

127 servers are massacre for vehicles

[trim turret]

no because I got hit by 20 people

[worthy lynx]

Just because of the player count

[trim turret]

but one dude in a bush can kill me before I can even find him

[worthy lynx]

If you're an APC that just stands on one place with no infantry support

[trim turret]

because even in a perfect world where he is stupid and standing out in the open, I still need to track to that direction, which is likely behind me, and find whatever range he is at, all before he gets his second shot off

and of course, that is if he is alone

[worthy lynx]

The whole point of vehicles is to provide support for the infantry, not being a fortress that shoots down anything that moves

[trim turret]

infantry are not normally looking 100meters plus away unless they are getting sniped or know about the engineer beforehand

you can't do that

you try and push, you will die

because you will be hit from 200+ meters away

which only you will deal with unless you got a squad that acutally listens to you

and of course, squad spawning means that even if you kill him, he likely hit you once, and will be back in 10 seconds.

or his squadmate will kill you

APCs get thrown around by the Tandem, so that's out too even iif they survive

[worthy lynx]

APCs get one shotted only behind. Otherwise you can escape.

[trim turret]

they get thrown around by the explosion

tanks do too but less

its pure luck if you land facing a direction you can drive froward or reverse out of the danger zone

[worthy lynx]

Besides, if you got caught in such situation, the hell is wrong with you? All alone, with no control over your surroundings and no infantry around.

You basically asking for a C4 on all your sides

[trim turret]

that situation is commonly done surrounded by friendlies lol

they will not look in every direction

c4 can be thrown out windows, over walls, roofs

[worthy lynx]

Actually, almost never saw that. Do you need to land it lower/higher?

Usually they got a little push before zooming out the combat

[trim turret]

rpgs will hit from beyond where most people are looking

[worthy lynx]

Well, that's the problem of your team then.

If they are blind, don't go with them

[trim turret]

so basically your idea is "stick with infantry"

[worthy lynx]

As well as snipers, too

[trim turret]

but also "dont stick with them if they are blind"

[worthy lynx]

Um, yeah?

[trim turret]

fucking stupid lol

[worthy lynx]

It's how armored vehicles work, lol.

[trim turret]

sure man

[worthy lynx]

Otherwise, let's complain that tank can't turn faster to control surroundings

[trim turret]

back to the tandem. its hits way to hard for how many people can have it

[worthy lynx]

Hard? Only rear shots

[amber oasis]

It's one trick pony, but too good at it given how much players there is

[trim turret]

3 shots a tank to its front.

2 shots to the front of an APC

1 shot literally everything else

[worthy lynx]

22 DMG from armour, dude

[trim turret]

except a helo, which is a whole other problem

[worthy lynx]

So it would take 5 rockets, and you carry only 3

[worthy lynx]

Helicopters are squishy, let's leave them out

[worthy lynx]

Front armour

[trim turret]

the fucking transport chopper with its 3k health?

sure

[worthy lynx]

It's a heli

[trim turret]

more health than anything but the tank

[worthy lynx]

Try to land a hit

[trim turret]

no shit thats why its health pool is a problem

[worthy lynx]

Considering how it literally drops people with no need to stop

[trim turret]

3k health, and hard to hit

[worthy lynx]

And one shotted with tandem

[trim turret]

actually not

[worthy lynx]

I killed one

[trim turret]

from full health its 2

[worthy lynx]

With 9 people on board

If you shot from below

[trim turret]

no weakspots other than tail rotor

[worthy lynx]

Was the best beginning on Wakistan

[trim turret]

2 shots from 100% assuming no damage taken

which is fucking hilarious

[worthy lynx]

Not sure about Gunners, if they landed any shots, but I did land a tandem on heli

[trim turret]

yeah its always nice to hit that shot

but it sucks when it flies away after

[worthy lynx]

And I'm kinda suspect, the whole wakpoint that you can kill pilot himself

With almost any weapon

Which is bad if you are mid air

Got killed from the gunners a couple times

[trim turret]

also possible, still somewhat hard to do and not really reliable

[amber oasis]

Your math is wrong

Tandem deals 2600 h vehicles dmg, tank have 6k hp, apc 3k hp

[worthy lynx]

And back to tandems.

The are not well balanced, but their existence is a trade off between being actually dangerous engi and vehicles dominating the map.
Not sure what to do, but now is... Well, acceptable.

[worthy lynx]

Okay. I was talking about front armour

[amber oasis]

Still wrong

4 shots

[worthy lynx]

22 dmg

22 x 4 only 88, which is not 100

If you shot at the rear side, you land a 44 at each shot (don't ask for DMG, ik operating with what game tells me)

And it will be 3 shots

But I've never been able to land all 3, because you either get shot (it is shown from where you got shot from, so next time you try shot a tandem, your face will meet HE shell or a machingun), or tank just drives away (which happens all the time)

[amber oasis]

Rear is 87 dmg💀

[mortal flax]

the problem with the argument you have here lies within what you said. "singlehandedly"

[amber oasis]

Right, it's a team game

[trim turret]

my man be using HEAT thinking its tandem

[amber oasis]

Not singleplayer

[worthy lynx]

Never landed a clear backdoor hit on tank, only side rear.

Because it's quite heavy to get behind the tank unnoticed

[worthy lynx]

Still, remove tandem, and all tank/APC mains will be farming frags singlehandedly

[amber oasis]

Well, it is not

[amber oasis]

No, lol, HEAT still exists

You can eveporate tanks with 2 firneds

you know, working as a TEAM

and devs always could buff tanks AP dmg

[trim turret]

HEAT and C4 would say otherwise

[worthy lynx]

It's pointless. You can gather friends and make anything.

Try to convince people in pub to follow you and get that tank on 1 2 3 fire

[trim turret]

easy

mark tank

you will have 30+ friends chasing it down

[mortal flax]

bro driving a tank is like playing zombie horde mode

[trim turret]

you know

[amber oasis]

"You can gather friends and make anything. "
THAT THE POINT OF THIS GAME

[trim turret]

that's apt

[worthy lynx]

Uh uh, then what to do with the tank that sits on that hill, away from main routes, playing arty?

[amber oasis]

You know, cooperate, work with others

Not brute force it solo

[worthy lynx]

Then what's the reason talking about tandem at the first place?

[trim turret]

ignore it because its really doing jack shit

or chase it down with your squad

[mortal flax]

because tandem wins solo vs vehicles

thats the main problem, compounded by respawn mechanics and a bunch of other things

[worthy lynx]

Still, it bothers me that there is a tank I can't scrap =_=

[amber oasis]

Becouse it too strong alone

[trim turret]

I mean sure, but if its far away I usually just swap to HEAT and plink it till it goes away

because I can do that solo

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, imagine people who don't have friends interested in BBR?

[amber oasis]

cooperate with strangers

[worthy lynx]

Besides, as I said, the whole idea is that tank have people around

If it's all alone, it's tank's problems

[mortal flax]

so you think a tank should utilise teamwork but any counter play should be solo?

[amber oasis]

you can lit up tanks with wallhack, you have proximity and squad voice chat

[worthy lynx]

And it's asking for a good portion of explosion

[amber oasis]

deranged idea

Basically bias

[worthy lynx]

If the tank had a separate people operating movement and shooting, I would keep silent

Otherwise it's a single player in tank

Who control everything

[trim turret]

...

[amber oasis]

...

[mortal flax]

if a tandem had a separate person firing and reloading (or something equatable), I would also be silent ...

[trim turret]

new class

ammo carrier

[worthy lynx]

So having one guy, who can make hurt, is a good thing

[trim turret]

either carry for rpg guy or lmg guy

[worthy lynx]

So a support with extra steps

[trim turret]

yes

because RPG is heavy

you carry like 2-3 rockets at most lol

[worthy lynx]

Yet people carry it around

[trim turret]

yes, 1 heat usually loaded, with 2 spare at most.

then you go to your assistant for more ammo

[worthy lynx]

How that's different from now?

[trim turret]

cause Heats lighter than a tandem

[worthy lynx]

I carry an RPG and 3 shots of tandem

[trim turret]

between 2 people, there is at most 2 tandem shells

[mortal flax]

no i vote we remove all classes, because this is a solo oriented game after all

i should be able to do everything, simultaneously, by myself

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, yeah

[trim turret]

just make it cod

RPG secondary

[worthy lynx]

Tank getting 90+ frags - we sleep

[trim turret]

medic getting 160+ frags - you sleep

frags aint much in this game man

[worthy lynx]

Single engy putting tandem in APCs and getting one frag - oh no, sungleplayer

[trim turret]

my man

killing a vehicles removes it from the board for 5+ min

killing a player removes him for 10 seconds

[worthy lynx]

Dude, to one shot an APC you need to get behind, and if the driver is not braindead, it's never happen, because it's not rushing before front line

[trim turret]

if games last long enough even the bottom of the scoreboard reaches 60+ kills

[worthy lynx]

Same with the tank

[amber oasis]

3-7 sec on average. 10sec is when you die few times in a row

[worthy lynx]

I would agree if tandem oneshotted every vehicle from any ange

[amber oasis]

Not true, there is splash dmg, you dont even need to hit. Just aim in the rear, and it should count duble dmg

[trim turret]

tandem puts tank to 2 shot from behind

which you can sneak in from in front if you hit close enough lol

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, now image tank mindlessly moving away from any fire support, just rushing forward.

[trim turret]

oh no its within range of 120 c4, and rpgs

because everyone has c4

[worthy lynx]

Yeah

[amber oasis]

It's very funny when people with no expirience with vehicle gameplay talk about vehicles, geting half of thier takes wrong.

[trim turret]

you are not talking backline

[worthy lynx]

So it should never show it's rear to tandem

[amber oasis]

I am talking about you @worthy lynx

[worthy lynx]

So no lneshots

[trim turret]

you are talking "its on that hill a click and half away"

[amber oasis]

Splash exists

[worthy lynx]

True. Not playing much with vehicle.

[trim turret]

we can tell

[mortal flax]

you know why people sit and snipe in tanks? because those people don't want to show their rear, thats literally it

[amber oasis]

you lack 50% of perspective

[worthy lynx]

Because you need to rely on troops, you can't see all around

[amber oasis]

Your opionioni is heavily misinformed

[amber oasis]

No, other gameplay is sucidide

[mortal flax]

i can tell you have this idea of fighting in the cqb towns on the map, with people in windows firing and a tank dies because it pushes too far forwards, but thats just not the experience of vehicles

[trim turret]

my man cant fathom the "sniping tank" is literaly because they will die if they even get somewhat close to the enemy

[amber oasis]

that's all

[worthy lynx]

Does the tandem splash though?

[trim turret]

yes

[amber oasis]

yes

2m radious

[mortal flax]

big yes

[trim turret]

2-4 meters I believe

[amber oasis]

4m circle

[trim turret]

not much v infantry

[amber oasis]

heat have 6 m radious

[trim turret]

but it procs weakspots just fine

[amber oasis]

only 0.5m

[worthy lynx]

Hm... It feels smaller than that, actually

[worthy lynx]

I managed to kill a guy only when I shoot him I the face.

[trim turret]

yeah cause infantry is different

apperently only .5 meters but cannot confirm that myself

[mortal flax]

look, respectfully, if you don't really know the mechanics of the weapon, you're not in a place to say that its fine as it stands

[worthy lynx]

Landed near infantry, not much damage, unless you put your tandem directly on the guy's head

[trim turret]

yes sound about right. though hitting the chest/feet would probobly do the trick

[worthy lynx]

Hey, it's a feedback thread.

I said I like this thing and unleashed a commotion.

[trim turret]

Engineer mains know its overpowered man

we should not be able to kill or send back a tank solo

[worthy lynx]

Depends on situation, if you ask me

[trim turret]

situation = vehicle? its dead or running

[worthy lynx]

Snipers send you back to spawn, and you may not know when did they shoot from

[trim turret]

usually with only one shot

they don't send you back to spawn usually

cause squad spawn

also much less downtime

[worthy lynx]

True. But how many shots does sniper can land before he goes empty?

[mortal flax]

this would also be a problem if you had to spawn in the actual spawn, once every 5 minutes, and there weren't 127 of you but only maybe 4

[worthy lynx]

And you can't refill tandem from the Large Ammo Box

[worthy lynx]

If whole lobby takes tandem, which is highly unlikely, I don't know what to say besides that there is probably a cheater on a tank

[trim turret]

pretty sure you can get at least 1 shot from it no?

[worthy lynx]

And that would make medics the most desired people I team

[trim turret]

medics already are lol

cause they do basically everything

except rpg

[mortal flax]

i'm just pointing out that comparing snipers to tanks is too different, and those differences are part of what we're saying here

[worthy lynx]

No, last time I checked, you could refill nades at best. C4. But not RPG shots

[mortal flax]

medic C4 zombie swarm

[worthy lynx]

But I don't see many boxes deployed lately

[worthy lynx]

Dying faster than respawn. TTK would not allow

[mortal flax]

most ppl with rpgs just suicide rush, respawn with all their ammo 10m away (a big problem)

[trim turret]

its been a while since I've seen a box so it might have been changed and I missed the patch note

[mortal flax]

if you actually look for ammo packs, i respect that a lot

[trim turret]

I find more enemy boxes than friendly ones

[worthy lynx]

Uh uh, and engies can actually die from many sources, beside tanks.

Mines, claymorea, snipers, a couple guys with SMGs...

[trim turret]

also yeah

[trim turret]

oh no i died

I'll be back in 5 seconds

less than 20 meters away

meanwhile tank: 5min respawn timer back at main spawn

[mortal flax]

my point is if you die you respawn in seconds, a tank takes a few minutes

[worthy lynx]

I mean, supports were scarce, but now they don't drop boxes, so I can't tell

[mortal flax]

that difference is huge, and why you can't compare it to snipers

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, except that you can die again. In seconds, too

[trim turret]

again oh no

there are 7 other people I can spawn on

[worthy lynx]

†Player in a fight*

Player is dead

[trim turret]

plus capture point

rally

vehicle

[mortal flax]

yes you can die in seconds, i'm not sure what point you're making, but the tank is still gone for 4.5 more minutes

[trim turret]

unless you are in the wild, there will be a spawnpoint not that far away

[worthy lynx]

Yeah, and tank would patiently waiting for you to run back. It's not hunting your teammatea, there's not a single guy running around searching for enemies

[trim turret]

if you run from the same direction sure

just mark the thing

know the map a bit

[worthy lynx]

The point is. Engy probably die after first shot, or even before the first shot.

[trim turret]

and suddenly you can get behind it pretty easily where it cant see you

if you charge from in front of it like an idiot sure

[mortal flax]

and respawns, with all the ammo, 5 seconds later, in immediate range of it

which, to put it into contrast, is faster than it takes the main cannon to actually reload

[worthy lynx]

In my experience, there is always people around tank. And if you landed a shot - be sure it will change position.

And not just a few meters, it will drive away to the other corner of theap

[trim turret]

I dont think you understand that we do not need to get behind it with a tandem

[worthy lynx]

So the problem is not tandem, but teamspawn

[trim turret]

as long as we hit it even once its below 50% health with the splsh

[worthy lynx]

Oh no

[mortal flax]

no, its the 84hp damage it does, compounded by respawn mechanics

[trim turret]

an if it runs its still gone for 3+ min because its going back to base

[worthy lynx]

Btw, does anyone use repair tools?

[trim turret]

the only exception being a friend group with a dedicated repair guy

friends usually, people trying to be helpful

and farmers in rcbs or helos

[worthy lynx]

Thag would mean a guy on second slot in a tank, with the spotter and thermal. Who can look around easily.

And I bet he'll see the engi sooner, much sooner

[trim turret]

with a friend group? not that uncommon

normally? hell no

people will just leave out of that seat

or the gunners will ignore the pings

[worthy lynx]

Yep, and the next thing is a quick response group, that will find engi and his spawn point

[mortal flax]

maybe the spotting assist patch will help people use that seat

[trim turret]

maybe yeah

but still

[worthy lynx]

Hmmmm? What's that?

[trim turret]

range making tank go below 50% even if not a rear shot

means tandem quite OP if even more than one guys uses it

[worthy lynx]

And still, surprisingly (/s), it's not about tandem.

It's about communication, and peope around

[trim turret]

still the tandem lol

[mortal flax]

#dev-wip message

[trim turret]

1 guy with it does the job just as well

2 guys just do it faster

[worthy lynx]

Yep, and a guy bear the tank can easily interrupt, considering the TTk

[mortal flax]

basically what we're saying is that tandem should be powerful if its used with communication and teamwork yes

[trim turret]

unless you are braindead, its pretty easy to avoid the tanks guns and peak and shoot with minimal chance of dying

[mortal flax]

in its current state, a tandem is perfectly fine solo

[worthy lynx]

Thx, should check it more often...

[trim turret]

especially since the sniping spots are specific on the map. usually on a cliff facing one direction where you can flank to one or the other side on foot

[worthy lynx]

I usually find people, when I try to get to the tank

Doesn't matter, where

Literally

I can find peole in front of main base sometimes

[trim turret]

tanks are funnily enough better of in frugis because of the lack of windows on the streets without it being a higher floor

[mortal flax]

lack of bushes to lie in too

[trim turret]

usually the squad they are apart of spawning on them

and some engy squads love having all 8 be engy and just wait in fron of the enemy base

though thats less RPG and more just spawncamping issue

[worthy lynx]

Street combats are hell in a square. IRL, heavy armour onlyoves in with the direct support from infantry

[trim turret]

yes I know

frugis is not that bad because of its design

[worthy lynx]

Never actually bumped into full engy squads

[trim turret]

but sandy is hell because of all the windows

[worthy lynx]

It's not fit for a vehicles. Just different map.

I enjoy it. Considering how bad it feels being In the open street

[worthy lynx]

Count in cliffs

[trim turret]

the cliffs are usually where the tanks hide

[worthy lynx]

And snipers. And some gunners

[trim turret]

I was more speaking about frugis fro vehicles. not every building has a full set of windows overlooking the street

[trim turret]

yes but tanks.

my point being, you know where they are

you can flank them because where they are usually only over looks one direction

[worthy lynx]

Doesn't matter much. Still too many places.

Remember Lenovo

[trim turret]

hell if you know the drop you dont even need LOS

I mortar my RPGs on them alot

[worthy lynx]

Never tried that. Mortar thingie. Kinda... Well, never managed to land a shot

Besides, I kinda remember that the description mentioned something about "loosing it's power if ahot further than 200m"

Not sure how it works

Anyway, okay, has to agree that tandem is a powerful weapon. Maybe too much.

But to balance it, the armor system would likely need to be reworked. Saw an idea of vehicles being in a broken state before being destroyed.

Or just nerf the tandem, but then what would be the point of using it.

Anyway, good night/morning/day to everyone, thanks for discussion.

[trim turret]

armor classes and a multiplier would fix I think

raw(true) damage will always be broken

[amber oasis]

then why vehicle are there? Devs want players to use them there

[trim turret]

if tandem hit as hard as heat, but bypassed armor of tank to deal the same percentage of damage(like its supposed to) I think it would still have its niche as tank killer, but not nuke literally everything else

[wanton crystal]

Smaw. It’s even worse guided.

[wanton crystal]

You can, you need support. Maybe you just don’t know these games enough to have valid opinions on balance decisions, and this should not open your mouth in them.

[trim turret]

its possible in BF, but with all the sensors you have it that game +plus generally having a minimap, and a long term spot mechanic its alot harder to do alone. especially once you get countermeasures for said guided things

[wanton crystal]

Ok, and that’s why we are having this entire discussion, is to make armor relevant. Like if you just don’t understand why discussions are being had why are you here

[wanton crystal]

You can from airdrops and the boxes at spawn though, so your point is moot

[wanton crystal]

Have I got news for you about anti vehicle mines and grenades from engli…

[amber oasis]

Those grenades after buff are crazy

You don't even know from where you take damage, you just get a indicator while the guy is few floors above/below you

[amber oasis]

@fleet latch You can't cut ammo beocuse 2 would be to small amount and it wouldn't change anything, becouse the problem lies in the amount of individual tandem warriors on the map.
You could make it even harder to use, but that would be obnoxious.
You can't limit it behind arbitrary number, because that's a arcade game.
So you gut the damage

[fleet latch]

I think someone proposed a version where: you need the same amount as heat to kill classic vehicle, but you need less than heat to kill Tank and heavily armored vehicle.

I don't know the value that are right now used but maybe: 3 tandem on tank, or 2 from behind. (And heat should be 6 and 4)

You could make it 4 and 3 for Tandem

But if that's the case. I think we'd need a mechanic to make camping hills on the corner of the map with tank, not a good solution.

I'd like to see infantry push with tank in city etc. To be like " the tank is a tank, it can take a few hits".

Also, if that happens, I wanna see a buff to AV mines. They feel way too weak and too easy to destroy. Plus anyone sees them. Only time they're used is in front of spawn 💀

[wanton crystal]

Honestly just disable their primary gun, not the coax in spawn, solves that problem immediately.

[amber oasis]

So you want to disable thier worse weapon?

It may sound wierd, but imo coax is better than HE shells

You can easier get kills, and reach up to 400m without looking at the sky to compensate for a drop off

[wanton crystal]

It’s great for soft targets, but it stops them from being able to demo stuff in spawn for those in front of them, but it still allows the tank to defend itself at close range infantry so they don’t get stuck in spawn by mines

[slow cove]

I think it’s balanced. The range is garbage compared to other options

[amber oasis]

Doesn't matter, lmao, you shot below 150m anyways

Most of my tandem deaths are below that, so range limitations, and even projectile velocity don't matter

But you still got the fuck tone of dmg and one shot potential

So yeah, op shit, simply

[cyan totem]

lol no

[grand pine]

Most of the time when I can use tandems effectively to solo kill tanks and apcs is when they literally are alone with no infantry support in an area. So I feel like it really forces you to get closer whereas heat can be shot from a much better distance. You shouldn’t be a one man army in a tank, you should still need infantry support to work very well. Tandems also work as a way to penalize people who play in vehicles too aggressively and overextend/or just stay still in 1 place

You also got to think of it from the engineer’s perspective, not having heat means they lost of the best weapons to kill infantry and affect the map in the game for the sole purpose of killing vehicles better, its a trade off of ability

[trim turret]

would agree if one dude couldn't just fuck up an enemy vehicle solo. for everything you lose you gain right back when you kill a vehicle.

[viscid haven]

What tradeoff? The 20 seconds it takes to respawn, line up the shot and then change back to HEAT? Which you know you can then safely do for at least the next 6 minutes after you have destroyed a tank?

[wanton crystal]

Damn it’s almost like they have an anti infantry version that is severely under powered and under utilized

[grand pine]

No crap, till they finally buff the other rocket for infantry the trade off for not having heat is still very high

[grand pine]

You kinda have to rely on your infantry to not be utterly blind, and make sure you don’t overextend and also move often. Like I said tandems are quite unreliable due to its way way slower speed vs a heat when vehicles actually move around, makes its effective range p much up to 50m if the vehicle is moving

[trim turret]

basically every engy main would disagree with that but whatever man.

[amber oasis]

'You shouldn’t be a one man army in a tank, you should still need infantry support to work very well.'
Well, WHY THE FUCK THEN EVERY PLAYER IS ONE MAN ARMY?
Simply, every infantry calss can solo a tank easier than tank can kill LAV.
So why tanks should rely on teamplay and be limited, while majority of players can just say fuck it and send fully crewed tank on a 6 min respawn, without even endangering itself. Occasional death results in 5s respawn. Death costs you nothing.
Then there is infantry problem. They don't want to help you, they don't want to care about you. They will blissfully ignore your existence unless you are on opposing team and fucking them up. You can die in the middle of friendly infantry bloob, by C4 to that. So much for 'playing with infantry'.

[mortal flax]

why does every tandem defender want tanks to not be a one man army (totally valid), but are fine that they themselves are a one man army?

[mortal flax]

100% this, and just to add, tbh if you're driving near allied infantry then you're driving near enemy c4 suicide rushers (and the inevitable tandem out of the 300 windows that can't all be covered)

nvm you actually said that point too at the end

rn the tandem balancing promotes camping on a hill 400m away, because if you get close you just die, and driving 3 mins back to base upon taking ANY damage because it puts you in the one shot threshold

[grand pine]

It kinda balances out, tanks are annoying asf when playing infantry and engineers specifically with heat and tandem rockets are annoying asf when playing as tanks and apcs. We both hate each other.

But if you get killed by c4 while camping or overextending is it really the game’s fault for you not paying attention every few seconds in a tank I get the argument against tandems but against c4 is a bit over

At most a nerf to heat rocket and tandem rocket speed and a decreased respawn time of tanks from 6mins to 3mins

How many tandem rockets do you guys want to be able to tank in a tank?

Hmm what about making tandems more effective if you get shot by the side or most effective at rear but reduce its dmg from the front to heat levels?

So you can tank more from the front but engineers who are good at flanking and stealthing can take you out from the rear just as fast as of now or a bit faster

Most of the time I see tanks get killed by C4 is if they aren’t paying attention at all or they completely overextend in the middle of multiple enemies

[trim turret]

the problem is, is that the "in the middle of multiple enemies" is because those enemies chased him down becuase he was spotted and swarmed the tank.

[viscid haven]

Nevermind how easy it is to straight up blockade the main spawn exit with a bunch of buildables now that squad points are super cheap

[grand pine]

That’s just how people r gonna be they r gonna chase down the biggest threat because of infantry spawn time. Maybe decrease the time it takes tanks to respawn and making more vehicles spawn nearer to contested objectives so the wait between destruction isn’t as bad?

Tandems take some skill to use over range and over 100m its not that reliable unless tanks stay still the whole time

[cyan totem]

"tandems take some skill to use" lol, lmao

nuclear grade copium

can you imagine having to lie to yourself like this so you can pretend like using an OP weapon is an accomplishment of any kind

[grand pine]

Mostly at range on moving vehicles, in close range like 50m its basically just heat with a bit more leading needed

Its less braindead than heat due to the rocket speed at least

[grand pine]

Is getting to a flanking position near a vehicle stealthily and avoid detection not take skill to rectify the slower speed and range? In a city and theres a thousand windows it doesn’t really take much ngl but in more open maps getting into a good position undetected does take some sort of skill

[fleet latch]

wouldn't doubling the HP of all ground vehicle works tbh?

[grand pine]

Making dmg from the front reduced to half what it is makes more sense though so people actually need to flank more and it also increases vehicle survivability from the front

Also reduce respawn time to 2/3min and spawning them closer to contested objectives

[cyan totem]

it's so hard to flank a massive object that takes 5 years to turn around

the copes that people come up with to justify their crutch are unreal

[amber oasis]

yeah, I have seen this behaviour since loong time ago

People play game with vehicles, complain about vehicles, while playing game with vehicles, then they use crutch like tools, and will defend them like thier mothers

[grand pine]

How fast does it take to turn around? I played other tank games and the acceleration on tanks in this game is actually pretty good. The turret speed is also pretty fast as expected of a modern mbt

Genuinely give me the info on how fast they take to turn around max speed etc its cool to learn new info and get better understanding of how they work

Ngl tho one thing I hope they fix on all vehicles is the weird wrong direction when you move back crazy how its still a thing since old betas

[amber oasis]

Well, it's worse than in BF4, and players are fast enough to invalidate it not being bad

[grand pine]

So would you think giving tanks a bit more mobility to bf4 levels and giving better frontal dmg reduction would be the right thing?

And also for someone to fix the damn reverse directions

[amber oasis]

not really. Mobility buff is needed, but it or more dmg reduction up front doesn't fix tandem problem

[grand pine]

Where do you usually get shot at by tandems?

[amber oasis]

There is just too much dmg easily avalibe to everyone

One of those things needs to change

[amber oasis]

Everywhere, from all directions. Sometimes from below, but that's rare

[grand pine]

How is your playstyle in tanks? Could you show me a video on a good tank player?

*a tank player who you would regard as being very good

Battlebit also has a lot of urban environments so it is always gonna be hell for vehicles in those areas just by nature of urban combat

[amber oasis]

I personally try to push behind inf, focusing on taking out vehicles form good position, occasionaly pushing first when zerg happens. Sometimes I sit 300m away and spam HE. All depends on map and situation, you need to adapt

[grand pine]

I see

[amber oasis]

They all alredy left

That I know of

[grand pine]

Rip then

[grand pine]

What if they buff repair speed on repair tools and increased the reload time for each tandem rocket? So its harder for 1 man armies

Would you be fine if it takes an engie squad to destroy you quickly? But respawn times for vehicles are reduced so you can get back to a tank faster?

[amber oasis]

Man, you are ignoring the problem

How many times do I need to repeat "There is just too much dmg easily avalibe to everyone"

It's so simple

Too much dmg for everyone to be able to pick it up

You either nerf the damage, or limit individual tandems

[grand pine]

You can nerf the dmg by making frontal and side dmg do less but keep rear dmg the same

If tandems do the same amt of dmg as heat for front and sides will that be ok?

[amber oasis]

87% is still a joke

BF4 does at max 52%, which still would be too much given that we have four times more players

[grand pine]

Vehicle hit counts based on %? Huh if a rear shot literally does 87% hp on tank I understand now why it should get some nerfs

[grand pine]

Could you give me the Hp of apcs and tanks? Thought it that rocket dmg was additive not % wise

In BF4 were there dedicated rpgs for anti vehicles like tandems?

Other than SRAW which can kill p much anything

[amber oasis]

The numbers you see on UI after dealing dmg are % based. And it's overlaps with math health/dmg

[grand pine]

Damn

[amber oasis]

Tank is 6k apc is 3k HP

[grand pine]

I thought it was additive and tanks have 150hp and apcs have 100 or smthg

That explains the issue then

In bf4 you can kill a tank at a 90 degree angle with an rpg at two shots too but the dmg in bf4 was additive right

[amber oasis]

Idk about that

I know that you could 2 shot in the rear with RPG, only, in bf4

[grand pine]

yeah 87% hp from a shot on a vehicle from the rear at any angle(due to game design) with 6k hp looks overkill as heck

[grand pine]

Only at 90 degrees too

Iirc

[grand pine]

Had to rewatch bf4 anti-vehicle but the dmg values r p similar except for the crazy 87% on rear

https://youtu.be/lQO-1h97jFE?si=jkwmiOggouRuKFtF

[grand pine]

Tandem being 87% on rear is fd should be at most 50-60%

[wanton crystal]

if it wasnt everyone, their mother, thier father, the family dog, and the family cat coming with enough c4 to glass a continent this might have been a point

[wanton crystal]

you've just described 99% of the maps in conquest.

[wanton crystal]

you shouldnt have to be a god to get mild use out armored vehicles. the fact the miniguns on the littlebird are fucking useless to 99% of players is a great example how balancing around the top tier just makes it completly useless

[wanton crystal]

you can keep trying, but you cant teach someone to read

[grand pine]

Mfw I ended up agreeing to nerf tandem dmg because 87% hp is insane after he explained how vehicle hit dmg is done

[grand pine]

^^^

[wanton crystal]

this is still ignoring the blantant issue

c4 is carried by everything under the sun, and nerfing tandems is just one slice of a shit pie

[grand pine]

Decrease how fast you can throw c4(maybe) and reduce its dmging capability to only disable vehicle movement at most

Its one if the earlier suggestions that make sense

[wanton crystal]

i mean c4 in general is not useful to destory armor (irl) anyway, it just having a 20% penetration rate would fix it

[grand pine]

In bf4 c4 needed 3 to kill a tank but the throw speed is quite lower n only engies can use itiirc

[wanton crystal]

snipers could as well, but was far more rare

[grand pine]

Unironic aggressive recon buff if they do it

[wanton crystal]

but to actually disable a tank without a shaped charge is usually going to kill the crew in the tank from the shockwave before it actually damages any system in the tank

[grand pine]

Wouldn’t there also be shrapnel from splintering?

[wanton crystal]

because it requires that much force

[wanton crystal]

only if the armor is actually defeated, which aint happening unless you have a fuck ton buried under the vehicle

[grand pine]

U know what would be interesting, if the only way to kill tanks with c4 is to attach c4 at the roof of tank

[wanton crystal]

attacking the hatch bing the only way to really damage it is a great balance change imo

its also not hard with how verticle 99% of maps are

[grand pine]

Yeah just make it roof of turret or smthg

Its actually kinda hard due to how slow c4 is thrown and when tanks notice or think someone has c4 they move and kill you if you’re on top of it

The movement will kill even if you are on top

I tried I throw a grenade in the hatch early on ngl

[wanton crystal]

imo this needs to be fixed

[grand pine]

That’d actually be cool

C4 near tracks disable n need engies to repair tracks with repair tool or repair itself after 20-30sec ig?

[wanton crystal]

considering that is how it Should be, as thats about the only way infantry can handle tanks without special equipment IE tandems

[wanton crystal]

i would say a minute would be more balanced, gives them a chance to actually counterplay the engie as in a firefight you wont notice it

[grand pine]

30 while disabled is chaotic asf in the frontline there will be a group of engies just shooting normal heat or tandems at you

[wanton crystal]

right, but the tank is still actively in the fight, and the engie would be a fool to be anywhere else besides behind it, and he should be punished when doing that

[trim turret]

unless that tank has a mg gunner

that engy ain't dying

anything more than 10 seconds of no movement would be death

even the 10 seconds is pushing it.

[wanton crystal]

currently you have a point, but if the above nerfs come down

is what im saying

[trim turret]

64 and up would have way to many players to watchout for, especially since the tank would be marked

even with nerfs, a tank no able to run while bing hunted by 20+ plus people most of which would be engys anyway

[wanton crystal]

would allow more interesting counterplay, while also not making attacking pointless

[trim turret]

they'd kill it with mass fire

[wanton crystal]

idk with the support buffs that have been coming recently ive seen way more supports and snipers then engies

the rpk is my beloved right now for a reason

[trim turret]

that's fair

[wanton crystal]

besides with a heat/tandem nerf, you would see even less, just trying to keep the bigger picture in mind with all the other recent changes

[trim turret]

the tank would need alot of protection and a realistic turn speed for its main turret

HEAT is actually fine where it is "only because a bug but whatevs) except against a tank, the tandem needs to come way down on its raw damage. they need to do damage based on multipliers instead

[wanton crystal]

also i hadent gotten to the bottom of the thread, would like to say sorry for being a c***

[grand pine]

Was being very biased too until I understood that 87 vehicle hit was literally 87% hp

[wanton crystal]

yeah and with no vehicles in the practice range.... hard to test

[grand pine]

I genuinely thought that the only way to kill tanks in 2 hits was from the back like in BF4, not literally 1 back shot and anyone where else afterwards

[wanton crystal]

yeah its broken af, never mind that the engie could be a real prick and run c4, antivehicle grenades, and a tandem

could chuck a grenade, then hit him at the same time as a tandem, and its like that meme of one sec your on top of the world, next sec your talking to whichever holy figure you worship

[trim turret]

one thing I used to do was find the most likely exit, plant mines, hit them in the rear and then just wait

[wanton crystal]

the amount of times that i have gotten a tank, only to cross the spawn line and die to 4 engies and their wall of mines is more times then i can count on my appendages

and because the APC has a Crt tv as its only moniter you cant even see the mines unless the engie is color blind

[amber oasis]

Oh man. Wait till you hear that HEAT, C4 and Tandem have splash radious against vehicles. 6, 4 , and 2 meters respectively.

You don't even need direct hits to do damage

[grand pine]

Heat at 6 is ridiculous and tandem being at 1/2 is ok ish

[amber oasis]

Should be 0

Like in ANY OTHER GAME

As far as I know only BBR rewards players for missing

[grand pine]

Its not really rewarding players its giving them a crutch

6m for heat is dumb asf especially with the rocket speed

[mortal flax]

i love that splash hits don't make a sound too, only gives you the very easy to miss blue damage indicator, which silently puts you within one shot tandem range in MBT

though thats a bug, it just further piles on to giving vehicles a rough time

[amber oasis]

It boils down to the same idea honestly

[viscid haven]

Splash should do no damage to tanks and APCs in the first place

The whole point of that sort of armor is to be impervious to anything but highly focused, high energy impacts

It's the same principle that makes reactive armor and cope cages work

[trim turret]

and how tandem warheads get through it

[viscid haven]

Thoughts on toning down tandem damage but making it hurt players inside the vehicle? So two well-placed shots wouldn't destroy the vehicle outright but it might kill the driver

[bleak zealot]

Was scrolling a bit and i just gotta say you nailed it on the head with this one

Infantry players have almost nothing to lose, especially with a squadmate or rally point nearby, they can just keep widdling you down from bushes and windows until you either die or need to turn back

While tanks have a static health pool, only 14 of each shell and only way to repair is to go back to base, or be lucky enough to have a good engineer nearby

But you cant really go further than spawn because you also run out of shells quickly, so its not even worth the risk of dying if you need to turn back for ammo anyway

[mortal flax]

100% agreed, but if it's gonna happen, give me the sound pls

[grand pine]

Be engineer inside tank, go out tank to fix it. Random squadie spawns and steals tank. Squadie pushes like a madman and gets tank destroyed, tfw 6 min of waiting for new tank that doesn’t even spawn close to contested objective

[fleet latch]

Foxhole had the same problem at first. Then now they have squadlock. But it has other problems.

[grand pine]

“Its the squadmate spawns as you are about to shoot on sniper in a good stealthy flank and getting you both killed from drawing so much attention.” equivalent of tanks

[fleet latch]

yeah

You can kick them tho

or locksquad

[grand pine]

If you are leader

[fleet latch]

you can request order if leader is afk

[grand pine]

Kinda rare ngl

[bleak zealot]

assuming 70% of the playerbase would also steal a tank, thats not very efficient

[fleet latch]

does work plenty of time for me. But yeah Idk how to solve the issue.

[fleet latch]

yeah xd

[grand pine]

They are also nerfing snipers by giving sniper bullet tracer rounds

[bleak zealot]

tbh that was kinda needed, you'd have no clue who's shooting you unless you saw their scope glint

[grand pine]

Which is dumb because now snipers who are aggressive get punished for being closer to the enemy and incentivises them to backline camp

Which makes more recons more useless

[bleak zealot]

eh not really, if they're aggressive snipers, they're probably shooting at people who are already seeing bullets everywhere. if anything it might encourage less camping since the tracer stands out more on its own

[grand pine]

Im the kind of sniper who flanks and finds good positions near the frontline, backline camping usually just devolved to counter snd counter sniping

[grand pine]

That srgument works if you are on your team side of the battlefield, but if you are a sneaky flanker who goes sometimes to enemy side of the fight like me with the L96 that trail is going to get you killed

I’d say make the trail appear after like 100-200m like how scope glint on med scopes work now

So you actually get incentivized to not be a backline camper

[fleet latch]

RPG needs the same trail that sniper are getting

You shouldn't be able to fire "stealthy" rpg 💀

[bleak zealot]

honestly yeah

even with the damage marker and it being a slow tandem, i often have no idea where tf it came from

[grand pine]

Kinda agree, it helps vs heat spam too

Man sniper trails should only appear above 100-200m tho Oki could have made a great solution to prevent snipers from camping so much

[bleak zealot]

to be fair it is only the first version of such a change, so i assume they're open for suggestions about it

like i wouldn't mind if the smoke trail at the end disappeared a bit faster

[fleet latch]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1179463738265440416 @grand pine @bleak zealot

[bleak zealot]

[mortal flax]

tandem splash damage to the front of an APC is enough to make it beep cos of low hp

[amber oasis]

87% of hp in one shot

174% in the rear...

[royal crypt]

vehicles taking it twice from behind

[grand pine]

There be dragons

[fathom lion]

what if Tandems did higher damage to weak spots that Heat but less damage to non-weak spots than heat they already have a short range so getting close to hit weak spots makes sense in my mind

[trim turret]

its not that bad at all. basing its damage on its range is a bad idea

[fathom lion]

are you responding to me?

[trim turret]

yes

tandems do not have "short range"

[fathom lion]

compared to there counterparts they do

[trim turret]

sure its harder that HEAT because it has more drop, but current state means that its easy to use, easy to hit, easy to hit weakspots

this is because Tandems do a lot of true damage and have a massive multipler on a weakspot hit

being able to rearm easily means missing is not a massive problem at all, even more so because you also have other tools at your disposal that you can take along with a tandem

because do remember

sending a tank running for base is just as good as killing the thing

(and well you likely got more engy's hovering near its base anyway so you'll get an assist at least)

[fathom lion]

then I guess my first idea wouldn't really work out then, but Like some have said adding a trail to to tandems and even the other launchers would help in finding the shooter/shooters. And maybe a slower reload time would give more time to react, plus a nerf to the tandem damage or change to how armored vehicles take damage

[trim turret]

it wouldnt help in the long run as it stands, sure something to be thought of for sure not gonna say its not a good idea. but damage is the main problem, and needs to be based on multipliers that are based on what its hitting rather than true damage. else the tandem, made for killing tanks, is a monster at killing everything else.

finding the shooter and killing him isn't gonna change much when he poofs back into existence just as you are done reloading with a new rocket

(fucking splash damage weakspot hits for 87% of tanks health will always be a meme)

[fathom lion]

I guess it could be made that there are sections and a bigger health pool that each section contributes to for the whole vehicle and destroying those sections has different effects like solders starts to take the damage from launchers or other explosives or the tank turret turning is slower or that one of the treads are slowed/disabled reducing movement and control but but can be repaired and it does not get destroyed until it reaches health point where it it starts to burn and then explodes after a time or take a bit more damage that will make it immediately explode.

make it so doing damage has some feedback that punishes the vehicle without making an instant KO

[trim turret]

is that not just BF1?

[fathom lion]

IDK and would that really matter if is more fun to have than the current system?

[trim turret]

the burn and destory "bleed" is already a thing

as for components, there is simply too much at out there that would fix anything.

c4 breaching charges will kills tanks from a single soldier, HEAT is very prevalent, Tandems waste 87% of tanks health and oneshot everything else, two shoting the btr from the front(most armor)

we should fix the main issue, that infantry can and will easily kill any vehicle that gets within 200 meters of an engagement zone

then we can worry about fixing how vehicles work, cause they also suck

[fathom lion]

so reducing infantries vehicle damage capabilities would basically be a band aid solution until they can fix how vehicles work currently ?

[trim turret]

less of a Band-Aid solution and more of a fucking surgery. vehicles suck because they die quickly to basically any single soldier the can get within 20 meters of, which is far easier than it sounds. or get hit at range by 4-6 HEAT/or 2-3 tandems(even to the front) and nearly die and have to run, while also being marked constantly for several min of the game. while flankers are likely around you unless your team is dominating.

if the vehicles survive longer, the last thing that sucks about them is ammo count and reloading. sure they can be improved in other areas, but survivability, ammo capacity and reload rates are the main problems of the vehicles.

[cyan totem]

imo

• vehicle weakspots need to just not exist. it's near impossible to cover your flank due to how slowly you turn around, and infantry will never ever help you. if you're getting hit from behind, you're already at a disadvantage even if you don't take extra damage
• either tandem needs to be deleted from the game, or armored vehicle health needs to be doubled across the board
• vehicle vs vehicle damage needs to be massively boosted so the best counter for a vehicle is another vehicle, NOT a guy with some C4

[bleak zealot]

Funny how an MBT cant kill a tank without having a 2 minute slap fight while a snealy bush goblin can delete one in 3 seconds

Also doesn't help that most parts of the tank, the turret can barely aim down at all, so even if you spot someone behind you, you will either have to turn around and expose the rear to other enemies, or try to find a way to angle your tank down to aim at the guy behind you

Makes the soviet tanks in war thunder look like they have good gun depression

[viscid haven]

Yeah AP is a joke

Even Blackhawks can tank two of those

[amber oasis]

AP is amazing at bullying snipers form 1000m away

And one shoting jeeps

That's mostly all

[viscid haven]

Ye that shit is hilarious

[wanton crystal]

Yeah the counterparts that are accurate to 900m?

[trim turret]

just lower armor damage from the things that do it. add multipliers to various armor classes, no armor, light, medium, and heavy. weakspots would be fine, but true damage needs to be low if they are implemented.
Vehicle damage, ammo cap, and reload would also need to be fixed considering how weak those are as well.

[merry lodge]

pretty sure a tank can die to a single tandem

[amber oasis]

Fortunatly no, tank can't

APC can tho

and it is FUCKING annoying

@spiral zephyr youa are L

[spiral zephyr]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/904059795047317624/1179039439889109083/Replay_2023-11-28_13-34-26.mp4?ex=65818f8b&is=656f1a8b&hm=62147002fd6e945e1597ca2e0244e2304f2395bbe27702fa54b8542282cd5599& 🥱

[amber oasis]

You wouldn't laugh as much if RPG didn't had this 4m crutch zone

[spiral zephyr]

I hit it directly, the russian guy hit the weak spot xd

[amber oasis]

yeah you did

Still woudn't be kill if not crutch zone

[spiral zephyr]

that wont happen for months I feel like

[amber oasis]

Because we know why lol

[spiral zephyr]

yea..

[bleak zealot]

funny idea: make RPGs retain the shooter's momentum

[cyan totem]

this is fucking filthy lmao

just abusing the noob tube aoe against infantry from above

RPGs are the stupidest thing in this game (right behind C4)

[amber oasis]

ehhh not really?

overtuned yes

stupid no

they have thier place

[spiral zephyr]

shooting rpgs from helis is abuse now? 😭

https://youtu.be/y6c5WwKMrOI it doesn't work half the time its fine

[trim turret]

technically yes, mechanically no

not intended for RPGs to be used in helos, but also its not abusing glitches

[spiral zephyr]

its fun af, we mostly hunted apc/tanks but conq on good maps is less common now so we shoot inf

the Chinese use it XD

[slow cove]

I love pilots like these

[supple osprey]

My take on tandems:

• kinda clunky to use, slow, high drop at ranges
• okay for light armor (amazing if light armor is stationary)
• great-amazing against heavy armor
• useless against walls
• useless against aircraft
• useless against infantry

In conclusion - balanced, niche use case

[cyan totem]

lmao

whatever helps you sleep at night

"erm akshualy 1 shotting APCs is balanced because... it just is ok? it's kinda clunky to use ok? 🤓"

[supple osprey]

that's only thing they suppose to do

they are only needed for one thing and one thing only. Kill heavy armor.

every infantry shitter can carry 3-4 c4 to kill any APC they like. Tandems are not the problem

[trim turret]

They are additive to the problem

[supple osprey]

Fix the main problem first. Period

C4 is super OP rn

[trim turret]

lol, not how that works bud

[supple osprey]

Too bad what you ask to kill ultra niche thing, while there's super OP all rounder

[trim turret]

all the vehicles are a nich yes, not a small one.

c4 is broken, but guess what its not in a vacuum, they exist together

[slow cove]

I think an underlying problem is people getting too attached to vehicles and so they get really upset when the vehicle is destroyed hence a little more personal stakes in the campaign against anti vehicle weaponry. Don't get me wrong I love driving around armored vehicles as much as the next guy, but in reality if I'm driving a tank and get #tandemc4ed I really could care less, because my team only lost like 1 ticket from that, meanwhile the other team loses 3 or more tickets from the kills I got before blowing up.

[bleak zealot]

I think its justified when you consider there are usually only 3 tanks per team at most, and they take several minutes to respawn each, when a single engineer can 2 shot a tank with no fear of death cause worst case scenario, they'll just respawn on a squadmate, go in a different bush and finish them off

Something like that should be hard to take down. They have limited numbers and long respawns for a reason. They're meant to give your team an edge in a fight, not to be a score piñata for the enemy

[viscid haven]

That's the thing though, they're not THAT easy to take down for any single player if you play carefully, the problem is how easy it is for people to try again and again with no consequence. Which is something mainly tied to the spawn system rather to the inherent power of the tools available.

[supple osprey]

In da mean time: SQUAD APC dies from a single tandem if not patched up quickly. Or two tandems without any chanse

[bleak zealot]

I would agree but tandems can do up to 80 damage if you hit the rear. Even if you dont kill the tank, it'll be out of the fight until it can leave, repair and come back, and thats if there aren't engineers hiding near spawn, which surprisingly is not uncommon

[supple osprey]

Fix C4 first, then go for tandems if they still wipe all heavy armor regardless

[bleak zealot]

And since you cant repair unless you have a competent engineer nearby, you're basically out of the fight if you get below 30HP

[supple osprey]

c4 is fkin everywhere, tandems are super niche and clunky

[bleak zealot]

Honestly i almost never die to C4 in a tank compared to tandem

Which i did not expect to see after coming from Battlefield

At least for C4, you kinda let the enemy sneak up around you. For RPGs, you just gotta shoot from whatever angle

[amber oasis]

Niche case use doesn't justify one shotting a vehicle with 4 min respawn timer. It also doesn't justifies taking up 87% of HP in one shot, basically removing a vehicle from combat for 3 minutes IN ONE EASY SHOT

And it's not even niche, every second or third engi (depending on avearge lobby IQ) runs one on INV or CONQ

Some even run it on INFCONQ

Basically there is at leats 15 guys that can one shot IFV's or maim tank in one shot at any point in a map, and they mostly focus vehicles, not inf

So you can safely assume there is few guys actively hunting you, and everyone of them can easily fuck you up, with minimal effort

Doesn't seem balanced to me

And then people who say that tandem is 'balanced' will cry that vehicles don't leave thier spawn. Which they themselves are cause of, one of few

[supple osprey]

It does seem balanced in comparison with c4 and HEAT tho. Those 2 things are first priority to balance, because they are most OP things rn

You always prioritise from worst to less worst

[amber oasis]

It's weaker than C4, but C4 is literally game breaking OP.
Heat is perfectly balanced and its much less of a problem than Tandem

Heat isn't even a problem in vehicle case

[supple osprey]

Heat is fuking OP, it does all things great, HA, LA, AIR, WALLS, INF. HEAT farms everyone

HEAT have less damage to HA, but the range is massive

[amber oasis]

It's flexibility is OP yes. But comparing to tandem, in AT use only, its perfectly balanced. Small/medium dmg traded for ease of use and range

[bleak zealot]

Yea but this thread is for the tandem because it has its own issues

[supple osprey]

@bleak zealot ^

[viscid haven]

Engineers hiding near spawn are a thing exactly because of squad spawning

[bleak zealot]

yea

[cyan totem]

okay? HEAT being OP doesn't mean tandem can't be OP. those things are not mutually exclusive

both are overtuned as shit

[wanton crystal]

Dude thinks because one thing is op nothing else can be.

[grand pine]

An easy fix is to make vehicles spawn more often, but also tandems shouldn’t 1 shot an apc from the back or deal 87% of a tanks hp from the back tho. Its quite insane

Just make vehicles spawn closer to battle too. Why do quads mostly spawn at base @SgtΟkiDoki ?!

[amber oasis]

More often spawns = leff percived value = less reasons to buff them

So let's them stay limited, just buff them accordingly

[grand pine]

But at least vehicle users don’t get as annoyed dying since they can respawn faster and also keep gameplay more interesting by having more vehicles to target

With some small buffs and rear tandem dmg nerf it would work in tandem

Pun not intended

[upper crystal]

also armor taking more damage from the back is realistic, both tanks in the game (t90 and Abrams) both have rear engines and relatively thin armor on the back. as well both of the APC/IFV have doors on the back and the bmp even specifically has its FUEL TANKS as those doors.

tandem is about as strong as it should be with its range, but regualr HEAT should not have such a large radius

[amber oasis]

Yeah, it's 'realistsic' all right

leave that for HArdcore tho

2x damage in the ass is bad design, especially when that allows for one shots

[upper crystal]

i think it balances the asshats that like to sit behind the blue line though if you can get them to start moving

[amber oasis]

the 'realism' stays in contradiciton to good gamaplay in an arcady game

[upper crystal]

plus if you charge toward infantry in a game where literally every class can have c4, you're a nut

[amber oasis]

The " asshats that like to sit behind the blue line" do that only because game forces them to, by punishing any other way to play

By one shots to the rear for example

[upper crystal]

exactly, so you just dont put the rear forward and stay with infantry like a tank is supposed to

no infantry around a tank is a dead tank

straight up

[amber oasis]

It seems you didn't played BBR then

It doesn't work likr that here

[upper crystal]

no, i just know how to use a tank mate

[amber oasis]

Prove it then

Teamwork doesn't exists in this game, and if it does then barely

People do not repair

You can be, and will be C4ed in the middle of friendly bloob

that's how this game works

I seen it MANY times in past 500h

[upper crystal]

tank tactics are simple, and if you yell enough someone will rep if you just stay with the infantry push, if you are in the tank on namak or frugis or tensa, good luch

[amber oasis]

Yeah, I have to disagree

exept the namak/tensa/frugis part, that's 100% true

[upper crystal]

a tank in an urban environment is a dead tank

[amber oasis]

All maps force tanks there if you want to PTFO

[upper crystal]

there are more open and not so tight quarters maps but ok

[amber oasis]

Even waki C is full of corners to jump from and C4 or places from which you can shoot RPG'S with impunity

[upper crystal]

waki C is the death of a round though

F on waki and the whole west quarter of the map is better

[amber oasis]

It was just a example of 2 buildings being very dangerous area

Majority of points have more of them

[wanton crystal]

if they are behind the blue line, you will never be behind them, nulifying this dumb af point

[trim turret]

blast radius. drop it close to their rear and it counts.

[upper crystal]

that and most of them turn around if you hit them once

[cyan totem]

1. you can't expect randos to work together as a team, oki said as much. casual is not a teamwork oriented gamemode
2. you gain nothing from babysitting a tank or APC as infantry. instead you risk being out in the open with no cover, or risk using something that can explode at any second as cover
3. you don't know shit

vehicles are going to camp the safezone as long as aggressive play is not viable

[amber oasis]

That no.3 is kind of harsh

[cyan totem]

is it wrong though

[amber oasis]

Not for me to judge

The rest of your points are 100% correct tho

[upper crystal]

i think hes just mad that i dont shoot back like he does

and to counter point 1 you made, if you get in a tank, and actually communicate in game, people will play with you, and support you with repair if you can manage to get a decent position near the infantry. but this is very off topic now lol

[amber oasis]

You are NA or EU?

[upper crystal]

NA

but i do play community servers a lot

[amber oasis]

So, on EU, 80% of the lobby does not understands what are you saying to them

Language barrier, 40 language in use etc

NA brain may not comprehend that

So yeah, I can communicate, but all I hear in response is " Ja nie panimaju" or "cyka bliat"

[upper crystal]

i understand that, i played too much eve online... actually made some friends in france and i shared a system with germans some pohlish and aussies. fought a lot more russianslol. but yeah, english is not as universal as america tries to force it to be lol

[trim turret]

that was Britain actually.

[amber oasis]

Good then, so, the teamwork aspect and cooperation in this game is bad, like really bad. Even Oki acknowledged that on devcast

Cooperation with inf is very rare, much more rare than someone treating spotter seat as something more than a taxi

So goobie point no 1 still stands, you can't expect teamwork, and you will very probably not expireence teamwork

[upper crystal]

hmm, i uess that was the intention behind the squad select thing

[amber oasis]

You are alone, unless you have premades

[amber oasis]

It's a shame it failed

That was intresting idea

[upper crystal]

did they already take it out???

cause it functions in some of the community servers here, its not great in pub though i do agree

plus you can select irrelevant squads, like helo with no helis on map

[amber oasis]

Default squad full of recons...

[upper crystal]

thats just selfish gameplay

i dont like that, but oh well. battle rifles are fun

[amber oasis]

Oh no, 5 sits in the map corner, rest is in the opposite one

[upper crystal]

even worse :/

i like to counter those asshats

[grand pine]

They do that because theres a fudge ton of things that can kill them like C4. max dmg rear should be 60-70 tbh and doable with a tandem.

[amber oasis]

lower still

PS2 is only game with simmilar scale, and you need 4 shots to kill MBT with the best dmg rocket launcher

[grand pine]

With how fast tanks can get repaired im not sure abt that. You can’t really count full coordinated engie squads in most games too

[amber oasis]

PS2 have even fatser repair, auto repair, burst auto repair, shields for vehicles etc

Biggest complain about them there is that they can't really contribute to PTFO exept destroying vehicles/farming kills

[upper crystal]

I can attribute that, I have played PS2 for years, I quit last year, the repair tool in that game is absolutely nutters. It was never balanced and if just 1 engie was repairing an MBT it would be almost impossible to solo kill as infantry even with C4 on the fairies being op in that game too. But they only could get an upgraded maximum of what 4 C4? Which was a lot, but it took ingame certs to level the items up, it wasn't just handed to you for (reasons)

[amber oasis]

Yeah, in PS@ infantry AT options arent as strong as in BF4/5/2042 even, becouse there is fucktone of infantry

But vehicle vs vehicle is very strong, so there is no 'vehicles being op' because even alone lightning can fuck up MBT enough to make inf job much easier

[upper crystal]

Until they added the kingsnake imo but yes. And that vehicle v. Vehicle strength is why I think the tanks are relatively balanced, only 4-5 ap shells to kill a tank not being repaired. It should take way less tandem shells though, they were designed to one shot IRL tanks

But that's not fun

[amber oasis]

I mean, for hardcore/millsimy game that's fair alright

[upper crystal]

i mean it is war after all, its nott fun, and not supposed to be lol

[amber oasis]

it's a game
it needs to be fun, if it's not, no one plays it

[upper crystal]

yeah i just had a string of pretty unfun matches

rolling and being rolled is fucking boring

team switching needs to be removed

outright

[trim turret]

why in the tandem thread?

[upper crystal]

why not lol

[merry lodge]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1159513116401467464

[amber oasis]

Just died to tandem lobbing over me and dealing 87% dmg when enemy had seen only my front...

Perfect balance, rewards proper positioning

[fervent goblet]

not sure if this has come up here, but can we get a slight increase to the damage radius of heat rounds. I constantly see enemies not getting damaged when a round explodes right next to them.

[trim turret]

yeah nobody wants that lol

[fervent goblet]

just like .25 meter

for the rpggs

[trim turret]

again, nobody wants that.

[wanton crystal]

would perfer it to stay the same and they just fix the shit hit reg

[pearl flare]

Give it back blast

[wanton crystal]

"kill 10 enemies with an rpg backblast"

[pearl flare]

I would say just make it stun u hard if you shoot indoors or something

[upper crystal]

it should do the same thing a helicopter crash does, becuse it kills you irl from an enclosed building...

[trim turret]

well it kills everyone behind you, and the blast bouncing off the walls debilitates you, but doesn't kill you. (there are also ways to mitigate that through tech)

[fervent goblet]

I keep seeing the explosion not kill anyone on the island map with the silos if I hit the silo next to the enemy.

[trim turret]

its a tandem, its blast radius is like a single meter at best.

you are very rarly going to kill infantry with it.

[upper crystal]

cant it seriously rupture ear drums? it cant be a fun experience lol

[trim turret]

I mean yes as with any force from an explosion, there is a change in pressure than can rupture ear drums, but thats not exactly in the game