Attachments - Feedback

[granite hatch]

the animation and reload speeds for drop/retention are flipped for empty mags, and both of those animations fling the mag away anyway 💀

[night turtle]

not even, i think, the quick reload still flips the mag but is slower acutally, atleast on empty reload

[granite hatch]

thats what im saying. drop uses the slower retention animation, and thus speed, and retention uses the faster drop animation, and thus speed, when reloading an empty mag

which is made even more confusing by both animations flinging the mag away. even the retention animation. dropping the mag

[night turtle]

goofy ass animation studio...
oh wait... fuck

[vague jewel]

Wait

Is there a place to suggest new optics?

I have this one idea

[granite hatch]

anti sight

(also this is probably the place to do that, so shoot your shot homie)

[vague jewel]

NO

Mini acog

[granite hatch]

TA44?

[vague jewel]

Ta44 acog is a 1.5x mini acog

It's literally a cute little acog

[round parrot]

PSO-1

PLS PLSP LS

its the scope that the dragunov svd uses irl

[vague jewel]

The eye relief is great on it and it works like a red dot but with a tiny bit of magnification

[vague jewel]

My gosh yes

And they need to add the actual muzzle devices they use

Like replace the basic muzzle device with the original flash hider or muzzle device of the gun

So we don't have to deal with muzzle devices being modeled on the gun itself

[granite hatch]

fuck it

HK sights on the G-family guns

[round parrot]

yes

[vague jewel]

GSG3-1

[granite hatch]

or heinsholdt or whatever its called

the dual-optic buggery that is awful to use

[vague jewel]

Whatever that g3 variant is in csgo

[vague jewel]

It's not thay awful

[granite hatch]

F2000 has its crappy sight, give me that on the equally-shite MG36

let me min-max my shit-ness

[vague jewel]

They should give the AUG it's Swarovski optic

[granite hatch]

yesyes

[round parrot]

YES YES YES YES

[vague jewel]

It's basically an ironsight already

[granite hatch]

ill use that over any medium scope

[round parrot]

I was so disapointed when i unlocked that and it wasnt there 😭

[vague jewel]

You wouldn't. It's only got 1.5x magnification

[granite hatch]

reminds me of a certain game where i run that swarkovski scope on a shotgun...

[granite hatch]

i use slip on aug anyway. perfect

[round parrot]

Literally the most recognizable part of that gun and they didnt include it

[vague jewel]

I feel like the gun models might have some limitations

[granite hatch]

and its got built in irons

[vague jewel]

Let's see

What else

Maybe a m16?

Oh yea

They could most definitely skin the as Val to look like a vss vintorez

They have shown They are capable or replacing models or modifying them

Especially with stocks

[vague jewel]

Damn how do you get it

[round parrot]

They should just add the vss vintorez

[granite hatch]

from twitch rivals a while ago

[vague jewel]

BRUH

DAMN IT

[granite hatch]

i wasnt gonna bother with twitch rivals until i saw this skin lol

[vague jewel]

I didn't even have any time

[round parrot]

i really wish i was home during twitch rivals

[vague jewel]

I WAS ONLY ABLE TO GET THE AK74 SKIN

I had to work a lot

[round parrot]

i didnt get any of them

[granite hatch]

p90 is the only one i didnt get

[round parrot]

Boobs

[granite hatch]

i never use twitch so i took a while to figure out that the rewards dont start until you claim the previous one

bullshit if you ask me

ended up like 15 minutes short of the p90

[round parrot]

Theres a chrome addon that just auto claims drops

Actual life saver

Works on firefox too

[granite hatch]

well, once i knew i needed it, it was too late lmao

on the topic of sights, i think its fair to say the fuck you sight could do with a remodelling. slim it down a bit and make it more usable. it might be a joke sight, but that doesnt mean it has to be bad

[muted laurel]

I change attachments for night maps and for long range vs close range combat. I also change my loadout entirely as engineer going between all vehicle destruction and all repair and anti-personell gear. Or as recon, going between "sneaky sniper" and "trap/info".

What if we could have like 3 loadout slots per class, storing the entire loadout including attachments and everything? And we could name the slots to personalize.

[past mesa]

Which is basically an AS VAL with wooden stock. Nothing more than that.

[granite hatch]

stop with your logic

[muted laurel]

Allow for a wooden stock attachment. Solved! 😛

[glacial lark]

Hope they do an attachment rework after they're done rebalancing the weapons

[paper jay]

watch as attachment changes mess up the weapon balance

[round parrot]

shouldnt happen

as long as they dont do any damage increasing attachments

honestly long and heavy barrel just shouldnt exist

too hard to balance

[granite hatch]

i think long barrel staying would be fine, but no damage change and smaller recoil penalty with larger penalty to ADS time and walkspeed

[summer finch]

I'd be interested in giving Heavy Barrel a Light Vehicle Damage increase.

Long Barrel has an extra use outside of damage increase, which is the accuracy and velocity increase. Heavy Barrel lacks that, so giving it a vehicle damage buff would be pretty cool I think.

[plain gazelle]

Naw I think thereye good

They’re a nice reward for getting lots of kills

[loud sand]

ye, altering raw damage with attachments will always have weird outlayers (like pre buff M110, L86 etc) so imo heavy and long barrels should affect the damage range and velocity while adding a significant amount of vertical recoil (blahblah irl heavy barrel should decrease the recoil but whatever)

[pale bough]

I think extending the max damage range/when dropoff starts rather than damage might be a great balancer for the heavy barrel. Makes it more useful for smgs as well

Plus it removes all the weird damage breakpoint balancing with the game currently where some guns turn god tier with the HB. Or some guns have lower damage to simply avoid the breakpoint changes with the HB.

I think the game could play with damage falloff ranges a lot more than it currently does tbh. The game sort of had a qbz equivalent with the aug (low rof, but high accuracy so it out dps' at range) but the damage falloff always seemed a little fast for it

[night turtle]

fix the flirs reticle (it's to thicc)

[plain gazelle]

yup

[arctic sable]

Can we get a NVG clip on for for the recon players, night maps have seeming gained in popularity recently and as a recon player I just don’t have fun in those rounds.

[plain gazelle]

No they have not gained in popularity it’s just the new voting system is just rng luck and night is therefore selected more now that we can’t choose

[arctic sable]

Ahhh but still NVG clip ons are a thing and I’d be nice to play the class I have 90% of my >150hr the whole time.

[little trench]

======
Please save state of selected scopes/lasers/flashlights between spawns

[arctic sable]

I actually made a comment about this, at least the zero option, in my post on general sniper rifles. But an option to select in load out a default for all attachments would be awesome.

[jagged grail]

Always better to just change damage ranges instead

[flat blaze]

Oh yeah playing around with effective range rather than raw damage would be helpful, long barrel and SDN-672 should be also considered

[plain gazelle]

Would make FAL bad

Would make many guns bad

Also are y’all forgetting about ranger barrel

Like +6 damage or something

[granite hatch]

its only on snipers. not even DMRs have ranger

[plain gazelle]

Yup

[round parrot]

can we get some passive stat buffs for lasers? they are kinda useless with the new positional hitmarker change

also lasers with nvgs don't make sense

they should still have a point

rn it's literally just like a 3m line which is useless

[silver nova]

Glint to medium scopes

[round parrot]

Rework glint first

Make it less extreme on lower zoom optics

And not show through trees and shit

[night turtle]

lasers do help with target aquisition while hipfiring but the hitmarkers do the real work afterwards, visual recoil 'n stuff

[round parrot]

Yeah for the first shot they needed but after that they uselessc

Which is why a passive buff would be nice

[night turtle]

ye idfk

• looks at flashlights *

[round parrot]

flashnights as an attachment are fine imo the issue is night maps not the flashlights themselves

just night in general is weird

[night turtle]

yes screw night, i'm tired of not seeing enemys but then some rat or dude with modified gamma and contrast "who isn't cheating 🤓" kills me

night is to slow for the games pace aswell

[round parrot]

Unfortunately this is kinda impossible to stop

How you gonna detect people changing monitor settings

Only way to stop it is make it not equiped

Required

[night turtle]

yeah idk crush their balls or smth

[lean wing]

Lots of people hate how drum mags function but I highly think they should be implemented / considered. Atleast 40% of the guns in the game are drum mag compatible.
Even if the drum mag has serious reload penalties it would still be viable & usable.

[cunning apex]

It's not the reload penalties that are a problem. It's the fact that every other stat gets tanked as well

[loud sand]

weird idea, but i wish there was at least one grip attachment that would reduce the visual recoil (not recoil that affects your point of aim, but the gun shake itself) with slight actual recoil reduction on top of it, with 1x sights visual recoil is not an issue, but 4x scopes really make the visual recoil sometimes unbearable

[night turtle]

just fix its overall state?

[round parrot]

short mags are dogshit on most gunsa

having less ammo is already a massive downsied

you dont need to slap worse recoil on top of that

extended mags are always dogshit

yay i can have 5 more bullets for 50% slower reload and 10% slower movement speed aswell as 12382738 other negative stats

[loud sand]

or that lol

[plain gazelle]

Fr

It seems like an easy fix

Remove recoil negatives ( maybe even a little bit of positive ??)

[round parrot]

idk about positive

imo

it should be

more ammo (obvO

slower reload

thats it

just slower reload

[plain gazelle]

Ok

Fair

[charred sable]

literally just copy how cod does extended mags

slower reload and ads thats all

[swift dirge]

fix bipod

[sick owl]

Bipod needs a rework an easy "fix" could be. lower its overall penaltys it currently provides a negative in every major stat and at a magnitude that rivals adding drum mags and suppressor combined. For the benefit of almost no stability over just having a urk or se5 grip. Simply put its not only a niche item to begin with but it makes you worse in (EVERY) way possible. to fix this please remove the vertical recoil and first shot recoil debuffs or at least cut them by 60% as I'm fine being gimped to make my MG able to be used past 150m especially since DMR's already dominate up to 300m with no competition and every class but support has them. please I beg let me sit with my MG in a corner and bully a lane the same way everyone with a M110 does ill even take a worse move speed penalty and harsher reload which already make me want to pull my hair out.

[velvet walrus]

bipod just shouldn't have any penalties to begin with, it's already an opportunity cost; you're missing out on better attachments, whilst your bipod has no effect when you're not using it

[summer finch]

This would be great on weapons like the AK15, Unica, and RSh-12.

[night turtle]

again, fix the system don't put an objectivly bad "fix" on it

[loud sand]

deagle in particular has a goofy slo-mo attack animation which makes it difficult to track targets, AK15 also has very wobbly animation after the shot has been fired, these are exaggerated with x4 scopes, so idk, they would need to tone it down globally ig or come up with some idea to make it less pronounced when using scopes, but idk if they would consider that since noone complained about it, just me XD

OR make it like in BF4, where no matter the recoil animation, the reticle of the scope stayed exaclty where u aim 🤔

[night turtle]

i and others were talking about visual recoil not goofy gun animations xD

[loud sand]

i mean, the animations of the recoil is the visual recoil lol

i just said that deagle in particular is a bit goofy

[night turtle]

no, camera recoil is what we meant sry
try shooting any "laser" gun with a slip, m125 or acog
ultimax, f2k, aug etc.

then you'll see what we mean

[loud sand]

ah, ok, well, i was reffering only to the gun animations themselves

but yea the camera recoil is also excessive with scopes

[night turtle]

ah k
but nah talking about cam recoil, fucken' nauseating with an ultimax under longer bursts, also hurts my eyes due to the sudden jerks

[summer finch]

Didn't think about the Deagle, that would also adore less visual recoil.

However, idk if the visual recoil is actually a stat. It's probably an actual animation, which would have to be reanimated entirely for the visual recoil reduction to do anything.

[night turtle]

that's gun animation not camera (visual) recoil
and the deagle is already a better rsh don't give me even less of a reason to choose the funny russian gun

[pale bough]

Jumping back in with the

Remove damage adjustments from attachments and instead adjust the damage falloff ranges. That way there's no breakpoint weirdness with some guns

[jagged grail]

Yes

[vapid sonnet]

Do you mean stuff like long barrel?

[jagged grail]

The long and the heavy

Imo, both of those should be more focused on recoil mitigation at the cost of movespeed, ads and control

[vapid sonnet]

I think it’s a good idea to have them tied to damage, honestly. It makes the gun customization far more interesting and meaningful. If there was no damage change from running a heavy/long barrel most people just wouldn’t use them at all. It would serve only to further reduce variety in weapon attachments.

[pale bough]

Yup. Things that increase damage could start the damage dropoff at a further range making them less useful for dmrs and such, but massively useful for things like smgs without buffing the damage directly

[jagged grail]

long barrel:

• +25% damage range

• -5% horizontal recoil

• +10% travel speed

• -0.05 movespeed

• -10 control

The heavy barrel:

• -20% vertical

• -7.5% horizontal

• +10% muzzle flash

• -0.05 movespeed

• -10 control

That's my idea at least, since the "heavy barrel" is literally just a bigass muzzle brake

[pale bough]

I'm fine with the damage changes they're doing now, but that one attachment that lowers damage just has to be changed for sure. Idk who would ever run that

[jagged grail]

It should be big on recoil reduction, not some weird increase in muzzle climb

[vapid sonnet]

Again, this will serve only to reduce the amount of customization and variety in weapons. The effect long/heavy barrel has on weapon damage is hugely impactful. It doesn’t matter on all weapons, but for a lot of them it helps them cross break points which mean a difference in bullets to kill, which is a really big deal. This gives the player the option to increase their damage potential and effectiveness at the cost of making the gun a bit harder to handle. I cannot see any benefit whatsoever in removing the damage bonus. It seems like there would only be downsides.

[jagged grail]

Them being both better at respectively increasing damage range and velocity, and recoil reduction, both at a heavier than average movespeed cost, seems like the best way to go for me

[vapid sonnet]

Seriously, what would be the benefit?

[jagged grail]

It is A. Much more consistent with what the barrels actually are, and B. Removes the many older cases of these two being basically necessary for a weapon to be good, or basically useless
It gives them a much more standardized benefit of damage over range, instead of the wildly inconsistent ttk increase

[jagged grail]

For instance I can see myself actually using these barrels on a lot more guns if I feel I can sacrifice movespeed for them

[pale bough]

My suggestion still increases the damage output by increasing the effective range. It just makes it not nearly as useful for ARs and the like that already have far damage dropoff. My intention with my changes is to make it so it's not a no brainer to go with the heavy when a breakpoint is reached. Rather, you go with it to extend out your engagement distances/get wins at slightly further. I believe BF4's worked this way? Don't remember, but I remember liking it there

[jagged grail]

This, it shouldn't be wasted on most guns and VERY useful to the point of obscuring all others in some guns

Also the heavy barrel is literally a muzzle brake
All three attachments we have that look like muzzle brakes cause a massive recoil increase

Which is just saddening

[pale bough]

A lot of guns tend to be annoying to use or not great until you get certain attachments. I would like the guns to be able to be great at base and instead be augmented with attachments, we'll see which way Oki goes with it when the rebalances come

[jagged grail]

Yes

[vapid sonnet]

First off, in real life a longer barrel will absolutely increase the damage a weapon does. More velocity is more energy, full stop. Heavy barrel doesn’t have the same absolute benefit to velocity, but theoretically would allow the user to use a heavier load in the cartridge and increase velocity that way, so I don’t find them particularly inconsistent with what they are in real life.

As for weapons being “basically useless” without long barrel, I genuinely don’t think I could disagree more. You’re looking at it backwards. It’s not that weapons are useless without it, but rather that they are able to unlock something which can make them more powerful. It’s literally an unlockable buff.

As for the damage output, yes it can serve to make guns more consistent and that is the whole point. You as the player are choosing that the bonus to your damage or ttk or shots to kill or whatever is worth the inherent tradeoffs from running that attachment.

[pale bough]

Moden Suppressors also increase damage technically

[jagged grail]

Attachments should be sidegrades, they should be tradeoffs and not just "this makes gun 90% better, 10% worse"
Which a lot are

[night turtle]

suppressors having a recoil increase is also funny

[jagged grail]

Yeah

Changing base damage just makes attachments wildly inconsistent and way harder to balance

[jagged grail]

Very

[pale bough]

I think damage falloff and damage dropoff get ignored a lot. It's why smgs were so strong

So even if it's not the heavy barrel, I'd love to be able to mess with those stats

Technically increasing damage does increase effective range though, so I guess technically I have what I want currently lol

[jagged grail]

A lot of attachments mess with too much stuff to keep track of imo
Some could be simplified, their ups and downs split to the ones that are currently just straight up worse

[jagged grail]

Yeah, but a range increase can also be more pronounced without overly affecting the guns at close range

[vapid sonnet]

The problem is that damage dropoff doesn’t matter that much on all guns. It’s really only smgs, and maybe ARs. Most of the time you won’t be using a weapon outside of its intended range anyway because the recoil will not allow for it. If long and heavy barrel only affected range dropoff and maybe recoil there would be no use in running them on dmrs or assault rifles or basically anything besides submachine guns, most of which don’t even have the long barrel option.

Again, having the attachments affect the shots to kill of a weapon is the whole point. It’s a tradeoff, not a necessity.

[pale bough]

Yee. Some attachments won't be useful on all guns I think

And for some guns it was a necessity until some rebalances

[jagged grail]

Again, the heavy barrel should not increase recoil at all
It's a big muzzle brake, the fact it even increases recoil has me spinning circles
But then again the one labelled muzzle brake massively increases recoil so...

Why world

[vapid sonnet]

It’s just for game balance. No it’s not realistic but neither is a bigger magazine increasing recoil or a canted foregrip making you reload faster. It’s done in the name of game balance.

[jagged grail]

Not every muzzle device needs to do a bit of everything, you can have much more clear ups and downs by focusing them more and having more of a single thing than a bit of a lot

[pale bough]

I make sure to tape canted foregrips to things in my house so I can close and put them away faster personally

[jagged grail]

That's the thing though, you can balance big mags without fucking up the gun recoil handling
Double capacity mags? Bigger reload, can only hold a third of the mags, slower ads and run speed
There, still balanced, makes much more sense, less of a pain

[pale bough]

I'm still firmly in the camp that attachments shouldn't affect run speed at all tbh

Besides the mags maaaaaaybe

[jagged grail]

I mean, a bunch of drums on your person and your gun, or a gigantic muzzle break make sense, but generally probably yeah

[vapid sonnet]

I’m absolutely in favor of having bigger mags reduce recoil while also reducing weapon handling and potentially reserve size, I like that a lot more than what’s currently in place.

[jagged grail]

I don't think they should even reduce the recoil tbh, they don't need to touch it at all

[pale bough]

The mags should affect reserve size for sure. It's criminal that small mags don't give you more reserve. Makes them useless

I wanna run small mags as light armor medic, but I simply can't because I'll run out of ammo instantly

Or the big mag on the pp2000 that makes you slow af

[vapid sonnet]

You’re probably right tbh, I was more so thinking about the real life effect than game balance in that case.

[jagged grail]

The muzzle brake we currently have could be changed to be:
Upsides: - 20% vertical recoil
Downsides: +5% horizontal recoil, +25% sound spread and muzzle flash

You can hit shots easier, but now everyone knows where you are

It's simpler, less overtly balance bloated, and you can instantly understand what it does

It's THE vertical recoil attachment, maybe the tactical does something similar, but at a different stat cost like precision and control instead of horizontal and sound

They don't all need to change everything

Else you end up with 5 useful ones and a bunch of straight downgrades

A long suppressor could:
Ups: cut sound spread by 80%, muzzle flash by 80%
Downs: increase ads time by 25%, decrease control by 10%, and maybe movespeed by 5%

It makes you silent, but it's big and bulky, but it makes most guns exceedingly quiet

As opposed to the short suppressor, which would do similarly, but a 50% decrease and only the control reduction without the movespeed

If you really wanna be quiet and don't mind moving much, the long one would be fantastic for you
If you need to slap something onto a already silent-ish smg, you go with the short one

Most of these things don't need to drastically alter every aspect of your weapon to be interesting in their own way

You can also have the small one as one of those velocity drain subsonic suppressors, which would be as quiet as the long one, while sacrificing 20% velocity instead of movespeed and control

Tbh i really wanna start drafting a sheet with simplified Stat proposals but I am at work and gotta address a pull request review for Space Station 13 when I get home

But in general, what I want is most attachments being specifically good at one or two things in exchange for a few other things, which would make it much easier to properly give them their niches and not have them creep into one another's role

[pale bough]

Oh god, the man codes for SS13

The opinions are now invalid 😔

[jagged grail]

Look, I am proud of my horrible creations that result in uncounted damage to the station and its crew
Of course ricin should deal damage directly to the organs instead of tox damage, it's way funnier to think your health is at 100%, then do a quick medbay checkup and see the doctor faint as the monitor has 7 different failing organ warnings

[pale bough]

I haven't played ss13 in a long time, so I can't sus out/remember which server had the super complex medical 😂

So you're off the hook for today

[jagged grail]

Pff it's not goon for sure, but it's not trivial there either, the one way to fix that is just pulling the organs out, pulling out your heart and squeezing the ricin out, and putting it back on

Also, if you ever see a wild rattlesnake in a maint tunnel, and it bites you and you bleed out due to hemotoxins, that may or may not be my fault

If there is one thing I am committed to, it's not making the game dull

Too much caffeine

I have ousted myself as a nerd

[pale bough]

Opinions, invalidated 🤓

[round parrot]

Flir needs to either work with NVGS or have built in nvg

More sights need to work with nvgs in general

strikefire not working with nvgs doesnt make sense

[pale bough]

Flir should just work at night lol

The spotter seat on the tank is a funny joke

[plain gazelle]

That’s why we’re talking about it in attachment thread. It’s a useless attachment

[timid marlin]

true

[velvet walrus]

the spotter seat is cool because it lets people spawn inside the tank even when there are 2 people in the useful seats

[pale bough]

Mostly talking about at night. The flir vision makes everything ridiculous.

Which is the same for the flir sight

[lethal sable]

I don't get the reasoning behind having no barrel and the basic barrel

[round parrot]

Its cause accuracy is a meaningless stat currently

If it does do anything, its very little

Cause i can easily hit 500m targets accurately on a gun with like 70% accuracy

[little trench]

Would be great to see weapon with attachments of player that killed you. About night mode, today i see on monitor almost nothing, 70% of players behavior like "nothing changed, today is warm and great sun". Was it FLIR ? Or wallhack? And the better - do snapshot of moment you get last bullet from enemy side and display it, just to understand that you took wrong position, where you're an easy target. It could be not a screenshot (that requires a lot of CPU ingame), it could be freeze-moment as we ask before

[granite hatch]

to continue from what I was saying in #1138743038949216346 message, I think all quick mags need to be 100-kill unlocks that DO NOT affect mag size, and ONLY affect reload speed. This would make them a straight upgrade to the gun's default mag, which would be a nice milestone at 100kills to refresh your play experience with the gun since you would still have another 200 or so kills on most guns to unlock the vert grip, which is the obvious underbarrel attachment for most firearms.

As for extended mags, they should not affect recoil at all, unless in the very specific, very few cases where you increase vert recoil but decrease horizontal recoil (Quick Mag B for ACR, a gun that IMO does the best with mag attachments of any gun in the game) or vice versa. Instead, they should decrease ADS speed and run speed (which to my knowledge they already do), as well as obviously increasing reload time. Thats it. Mags should, with some extremely niche exceptions, not affect the way the gun shoots, i.e. its recoil and control stats.

To take, perhaps unfairly but specifically to make a point, the worst mag attachment in the game by a country mile; MG36 drum mag. The gun already has absolutely no reason, even in its base form, to be used over the Groza, UMP (fuck the new UMP damage), or even the AK5C. Its got a helluva lot of recoil and comparatively awful handling stats and reload speed for dealing the same damage as the three aforementioned firearms (or 1 less damage in the case of the UMP, because fuck the new UMP damage) at the same or very similar rate of fire. So, throw the drum mag on there that takes a fucking long time to unlock with this impressively average gun, should now just do that but better, making it actually viable against the other three firearms. Keyword being "should", because it massively increases recoil and ADS time, and tanks the reload speed down to literally right smack inbetween the two 100-round belt-fed LMGS. For 60 rounds. *60 rounds in a drum mag that not only is modelled after a real-life 100-round drum, but reloads at the same speed as the 100-round LMGs. This drum mag exists in the same god damn video game where other guns have quick mags that simply quicken the reload speed of the base magazine, because thats the point.

gonna hop on over to https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1138209394123886652 to complete the hat trick of thread contributions

[cunning apex]

This man spittin straight truth. Preach it, brother.

[sick totem]

Dear diary

It’s been almost 4 months since launch and any mag upgrade that isn’t a quick mag is still irrelevant

[velvet walrus]

counterpoint: FAL extended mag

you get almost twice the ammo

[night turtle]

just over 1.5 times the ammo, also handling and recoil debuffs 💀

[velvet walrus]

it lets you get spraydowns like nothing else

by using the FAL you're already agreeing to deal with the recoil

[night turtle]

2.4 h-recoil with lots of other downsides vs 2.1 h-recoil?

[velvet walrus]

yes, it's worth it

[night turtle]

not for me, me go fast me make ded

[velvet walrus]

u can't make ded when u run out of bullet

[night turtle]

that's why assault is the based most fucking class behind support

[plain gazelle]

I love this one

[plain gazelle]

I like this . But I think it’s a small problem of just making the noobs get destroyed by good players who Simply have better mags with no downsides

[loud sand]

perhaps a hot take, but the less attachments with no downsides the better, imo attachments shouldnt be a straight upgrade, but rather conscious decision to build a gun with attachments that go well with gun's strength instead of no-brainer attachments that are just a crutch

except sights, these should be just a preference

[granite hatch]

A slightly faster reload or 10 extra rounds in the mag isn't going to do that, fullstop. Acting like they're gonna cause "noobs go get destroyed by good players" seems awfully hyperbolic if you ask me

[plain gazelle]

Ik

[plain gazelle]

That’s why I said a small problem…

[jagged grail]

I don't think quick mags should be a full no downsides upgrade, no attachment should be

With that out of the way, i can't stress how much using recoil control to balance mag options hurts my soul
A lot of mag options just straight up make your guns worse, just look at the MG36, that thing is already pretty mediocre without the drum and it just kills the recoil control

If i had to balance any kind of mag attachments, i'd do it via reducing the magazine pool significantly, decreasing movespeed(depending on the mag type) and increasing ads time

So instead of a bigger mag just making the gun unusable, it will not affect recoil at all, but make the gun feel more sluggish to play, and force you to replenish your ammo more often since you have a lot less total ammo even if it's put in a few big mags

Same for quick mags, it feels fair for the drawback of a slightly faster reload is a slight ads penalty and not being able to carry nearly as much ammo

[granite hatch]

reducing mag pool removes half the benefit of running extended mags lol

also, reducing mag pool means theres no longer much logical reasoning behind the extended mag also slowing player speed. and that sounds like a very not good idea

mag pool reduction seems like an even worse way of balancing than recoil debuffs if you ask me. also, dont think it would play very nicely with the way the game has character customisation for playing around with your mag pool as well

which is more of an "unavoidable" thing with, as that would apply to mag size reduction for any attachment in the hypothetical, not just mag attachments

[jagged grail]

i don't know about you, but for me, the benefit of extended mags was never 'more ammo', it's always been being able to sustain fire for longer times

[granite hatch]

nah yeah, its 100% a factor for me when i equip an extended mag.

+25% mag capacity means +25% total ammo capacity. thats why they slow player speed down, not just gun handling

[jagged grail]

well that doesn't really make sense for me tbh, but anyways, it's a much easier to do thing to just time your reloads right, than to fight some stupid high recoil, and a lot of the times, the mags that have the option just make the gun absolute garbage for it, they shouldn't touch recoil at all
nah, having a 2 or 3 big drums on yourself is incredibly more cumbersome than having 8 stick mags on you, for real

[granite hatch]

and yeah, ya already get just four mags in light armour on some guns

reducing that even more purely because i want to equip a quick mag or extended mag would just suck

[jagged grail]

they severely obstruct your movement, not just because they carry a lot of ammo, but because they themselves are heavy, not to get on how ergonomically horrible it is to carry them on you

[granite hatch]

its a video game. ergonomics of how the mags pack into your plate carrier and backpack are non-factors

[jagged grail]

would it really? There's a bunch of options for getting more mags with belts and armor, not to count your fellow teamates for resupply

[granite hatch]

yes. it would suck. it would mean quick mag on scar is a mere 60 rounds.

between all your mags. scar empties its mags rather fast too

[jagged grail]

Would still be miles ahead of "haha 20 extra rounds on mg 36? gun flies"

[granite hatch]

what

[jagged grail]

have you used the mg 360 with the drum?

it's a torture session

[granite hatch]

yes. what do you mean about flying

[jagged grail]

that

the gun flies out your hand

[granite hatch]

but- what does that have to do with reduced mag pools

[jagged grail]

reducing mag pools is a much better alternative to just fucking up recoil beyond all repair or just making a straight upgrade?

[granite hatch]

i feel like ive missed some sort of bit of information

oh

[jagged grail]

like what i'm saying is, "this feels like a much less horrible way of balancing X"

[granite hatch]

taking away recoil debuffs would not make the drum mag on the MG36 a straight upgrade

the reload is slow as shit

ADS time is atrocious. Movement speed is nuked

[jagged grail]

it wouln't, for sure, hmmm

yeah, i guess you're right

[granite hatch]

MG36 with the drum mag is one of the worst handling, slowest moving guns in the game

and it cant even equip a bipod lmao

it makes me cry

[jagged grail]

bipods for support shouldn't even be attachments, they should straight up be parts of the guns

[granite hatch]

(btw that goofy-60-rounds drum mag literally reloads slower than the ultimax. the 100-rnd ultimax 💀 )

[jagged grail]

like, remove all the weird downgrades they have, and just make them a regular bit of the guns instead of attachments like they should have been from the start

[granite hatch]

yes fucking please

FIX BIPOD

[jagged grail]

sure, grips don't need to stack with them, but make them not weigh 55.97kilos

[jagged grail]

the goofy mag that should be able to carry 100 rounds

[granite hatch]

soldier; attaches bipod to gun "SARGE HOW THE FUCK DO I HOLD A GUN HELP"

[sick totem]

Dear diary

[granite hatch]

yes. yes it should. that alone would be a huge upgrade to the drum mag. then remove the stupid recoil debuffs that make it impossible to use the gun as an actual suppressive fire gun

[sick totem]

Bipod still sucks ass almost 4 months since launch

[granite hatch]

even if bipods dont become built into the guns (which they 100% should). bipods should just be "it doesnt affect your gun's stats at all when undeployed"

when deployed, lasar beam. when undeployed, basically as if you dont have a grip equipped at all. no buffs or debuffs active

[jagged grail]

with every passing day, i begin to believe the bipod only shows undeployed stats so players can't see how it's obviously very similar to a tactical and SE-5 in performance, and thus switch to that

[granite hatch]

i also hate how bipods feel when they dont anchor you in-place when ADS

[jagged grail]

yes

that too

[granite hatch]

it just feels weird and unintuitive. since a lot of the time i have to be prone to deploy the thing, being able to move just means it throws my gun all over the screen if i accidentally move a micrometer

lemme spin around like a beyblade. but thats it, no actual movement in any direction

(both because it would feel better, but would also be a good way of balancing bipods that make guns lasers. almost no recoil, but also super vulnerable)

also ffs make the player pivot around the bipod when its deployed. and probably give it manual deployment

basically; fix bipod

(also give quad-pod pls)

[jagged grail]

i feel this game just has a big issue with movement
that being you can literally spin your mouse around and change directions on a dime, with no inertia or anything

[granite hatch]

ye, but thats a whole can of worms that i dont dare open

ill put the can of worms on the table, but i aint touchin from then on lol

[jagged grail]

i will open the can every day until i accidentally cut my finger on it and die of tettanus

[granite hatch]

(btw googling "quad pod" on google images gives some truly fascinating results)

i was expecting just a bunch of camera stuff. but no, theres various different "quad pods" in the firearm world. and some of they are fuckin weird

and also a wrestling stance apparently

BBR Expansion 1: Sumo

[plain gazelle]

I use extended for shooting longer not just having more ammo

[granite hatch]

well of course. but its two sides of the same coin.

[plain gazelle]

I guess your someone who actually lives

You idiots, surviving for more than two mags 😂

[granite hatch]

yeah, i think part of the miscommunication in this channel whenever someone mentions mags is that people dont understand that some people play carefull and resupply their mags multiple times before dying, and others are running around hopped up on cocaine. both are valid playstyles, and you cant just ignore one playstyle because the other says so

[velvet walrus]

what about the people who are running around hopped up on cocaine and then resupply their mags multiple times before dying

[granite hatch]

thats a rare breed

still only exists in legends

[livid fulcrum]

basically there is no reason to pick extended mags on any gun in the game, penalties are too high

[somber schooner]

Why do some short mags give you worse recoil?

but so do some extended mags?

[livid fulcrum]

extended mags should make the gun heavier and reduce recoil but negatively effect run speed

[granite hatch]

i dunno about reducing recoil since that doesnt sound very balanced, but i do think it should just have no affect on recoil. same with quick-mags. their debuffs should be in gun handling-related stats and player movment-related stats IMO

for example; a quick mag would reduce reload time, but also reduce the Control stat as well as increase the draw speed stat

extended mag would give you more ammo per mag (and thus more total ammo), at the cost of slower ADS, less Control, and a slower runspeed. probably a slower draw speed too

theres simply no need for any of the mag attachments to affect recoil. its pretty antithetical to the point of them. theres plenty of ways to balance them outside of recoil debuffs

also, on handguns, osprey reducing velocity is awful. those three sidearms already have woefully low velocity for being semi-auto, id much rather the osprey reduce damage by 5% or so

[night turtle]

oh heck no don't do that, it's a really bad idea man

[granite hatch]

why?

osprey reducing damage wouldnt affect the shots-to-kill breakpoint of any of the handguns, would it?

[night turtle]

it would, against armor and also vector 💀

[granite hatch]

vector aint a handgun

[night turtle]

it has the osprey

[granite hatch]

and pistols doing poorly against armour would seem fair enough to me

[granite hatch]

i did specify "on handguns"

velocity reduction on handguns always feels like ass because theyre semi-auto. thats why they all had their velocities raised across the board

[night turtle]

would be weird having the same thing do different things on different guns, also handguns already suck against armor aswell as generally being used in hipfire distance, so velocity doesn't actually matter

[granite hatch]

also, im legit talking very small percent reduction. what are those barrels that slightly increase damage, but not the long barrel, heavy barrel, or ranger barrel? im talking those kinds of changes, but reduction not addition

like, "reduced from 32 down to 31" levels. not "reduced from 32 down to 22"

also, i think since theyre sidearms and not primaries, it would be fine if a single attachment works differently on them, since the guns are totally unalike the vector anway

[night turtle]

22 to 21-20 is significant, 32-31 is aswell...

[granite hatch]

how so? they would all stay comfortably within the 3-stk range

so, using the "S D N-6 762" barrel attachment available on primaries as the reference (2% reduction), it would be a 0.6 damage reduction on the USP, 0.64 reduction on the M9, and 0.54 reduction for the MP 443

[pale bough]

I'm still on my "don't adjust damage numbers, adjust damage falloff" agenda

I think it allows for more damage and range flexibility without making guns have wacky breakpoints. It would make the shitty attachment that lowers damage usable as well because if it lowers your falloff instead of would still lower your damage output at range (depending on how much it lowers it)

[round parrot]

bipods are still shit and 3/4 of the attachments are objectively trash

[jagged grail]

I think the issue with a lot of attachments is they change too many things at once, sometimes wildly overstepping their territory
For example, the flash hider doesn't just hide Flashes, it wildly increases your vertical recoil and decreases your horizontal
People rarely use it for the flash hiding effect, more so the recoil rebalance
The muzzle brake does the same, but without making horizontal recoil better, so it's really just worse

There is no need for most attachments to change most things, lest you end up with a Se5 to Fab GTS situation where one just does all the other does better

Most things that should have nothing to do with recoil have some wild effects on it, most notably suppressors and extended mags

Imo all attachments could use a bit of simplifying
Big suppressor? Reduce sound and flash and increase velocity, but decrease ADS and reduce run speed
Small suppressor? Same thing to a lesser extent but without the velocity increase and runs runspeed decrease

Muzzle brake? Make the gun louder, increase flash and increase horizontal by 5%, decrease vertical by 20%
Now your gun feels better up close but everyone KNOWS where you are

[jagged grail]

Actually, now that I think about it, a good way of separating attachments into categories would be giving them "weight classes"
Not literal ingame classes, but if you were to clump a few say horizontal recoil reduction focused grips, you could have a "light, medium" and "heavy" one, where the tiny angled grip does some horizontal reduction at basically no costs(ads time, control, something small), something like the gunfighter is a middle ground, where it messes your speed(or some other mobility stat) a small bit, but with a better horizontal reduction, and if you really wanna lean into horizontal, you get the big angled grip for a lot of reduction, at the cost of bigger mobility penalties

So you could have your horizontal based ones, your "all recoil" ones, your vertical recoil ones, and then your specialty ones like a simplified URK for mostly just reload speed or something focused heavily on handling and ads

[pale bough]

https://tenor.com/view/better-call-saul-chuck-mcgill-chicanery-breakdown-gif-25422432

@jagged grail in this thread regularly

[loud sand]

this, i'd keep it light and heavy only tho, no need to have 3 classes, instead have a bit more of specialty grips that would increase the handling stats at the cost of recoil for example, or grips just for reload speed without recoil benefits

[jagged grail]

This... chicanery...I am not CRAZY, I know he swapped those grip stats! How could I make such a mistake, Oki, he.. he...

Tbh this is just me procrastinating at work while drinking copious amounts of energy drinks with barely any sleep, it's bound to sound like a raging lunatic

[pale bough]

We were promised the attachment update oki

WHERE'S MUH ATTACHMENT UPDATE OKI?

[pale bough]

I argue on here instead of doing work 😎

[jagged grail]

This but unironically

[pale bough]

That was unironically

[jagged grail]

Oh lmao

[jagged grail]

This seems slightly unhinged but is there any of these attachments any of you feel would end up being underused in a balancing scheme like this?

i feel like i made the stubby and short angled a bit overtuned

[night turtle]

this is funking awesome
the only thing that's a little icky to me is the running speed debuffs/buffs being so pronounced, they could be cut in half or smth but otherwise this looks like a balanced grip attachments list and is 100% better than what we have rn

also ads slowdown might be a little high

but it's just a concept, but a really good one
(why don't you have this guy on the balance team devs?)

[shrewd sapphire]

that looks pretty good in terms of balance I do think that some of the debuffs can be bit high and can probably be tweaked a little bit

how does anyone feel about changing barrels attachments that increase damage to something else? it just feels like some guns will revolve around using them to go past a break point or never use them cause they don't go past a break point it feels better if they just reduced damage falloff and maybe recoil or first shot recoil but had worse ADS speed than other barrel attachments.

[pale bough]

Graphic unclear. Please make a PowerPoint presentation

Also please stop touching running speed with attachments 😭

Just leave it alooooone

[round parrot]

Yeah no

Running speed nerfs are horrible

Everything else looks good tho

[jagged grail]

That's the thing tho, there's options for barely taking a speed hit, and options for going even faster
If you are going fast, the chance you'll need the extra utility of recoil control can be mitigated by pushing closer distances
I agree I might have overdone some of the speed and maybe ads changes, but in general I'd say with a few tweaks this would give options that suit everyone

[round parrot]

Hmm ig

Definitely tone down the run speed nerfs tho

[jagged grail]

Ye

[round parrot]

Like -5% should be max imo

Everything else looks great tho

[jagged grail]

Yeah I was thinking like 4 actually lol

[round parrot]

Btw am I blind

Where is stabil grip

Ig you don't have all grips done yet

[pale bough]

Just don't touch speed pleeease lol

I hate attachments affecting run speed. Just make the guns have the run speed they're going to have and make it adjustable with the magazines. Ideally stocks could be adjusted for it too

My muzzle attachment shouldn't mess with my run speed overall.

[jagged grail]

The stability and the bipod are missing ye

[jagged grail]

Personal preference aside, recoil control and movement capability are two of the most important balancing factors in this game, and as it stands a lot of the other stats tend to feel peripheral in comparison, which is why there's a lot of trouble balancing grips out
They ultimately feel the same, and do very little to be their own thing, most of the time either balancing recoil with... other recoil, or just Changing a bunch of other stats a bunch

This system, though yeah, I will go and dampen the runspeed values quite a bit, gives a bunch of playstiles attachments that fit them, even mobility focused ones get good options
There is supposed to be a trade-off, and speed is the one that imo makes it most feasible to make all grips desirable

[jagged grail]

I'm actually thinking 0,1,3 instead of the current 1,3,5
The smaller ones don't really need to affect speed to be balanced with their own drawbacks

[pale bough]

You forgot about like ads time

And of course, the most important stat

Control

[jagged grail]

Ads time is also accounted in these

[pale bough]

Know what, it is

I can't read lmao

I literally looked at it and didn't read it

[jagged grail]

Happens, I feel ya

[jagged grail]

And my idea is making barrels even less so, like a 0, 1 and 2 max, so that stacking the most movement affecting grip/barrel combo goes to -5%

Which you probably shouldn't do, you can easily swap it from -5 to -3 by going from the hera to the se5

Which would still have respectable recoil reduction

Again, this might seem like a lot in some cases, but it's on the more extreme of the grips, and there are the reasonable options too

It actually makes them different in function instead of some being just better versions of others and most feeling like the same grip

[jagged grail]

Updated with dampened speed changes
The middle recoil ones seem like the 'sensible middle ground' now, but the heavy and light ones still fill their place
Maybe the light ones could use something else as a counter balance as well, not sure what though

Still, getting something like +2% running speed on say a G36C seems very nice for what it is, and even a -3% on a G36C doesn't seem that bad, but with that gun's already ok recoil, i'd personally go with a light grip or a URK

[night turtle]

remember, movement speed modifiers only do 1/5 of what the stats say...

[jagged grail]

Oh, i'm thinking about movement modifiers in reality, not in the fantasy 'scare you away from the objectively better thing with a movement slowdown and then don't actually have the slowdown' tactic we got now

[night turtle]

k xD
then technically it'd have to be 0%, 05% and 15%

[jagged grail]

eh, this is a story for another time, but for me at least, that set up would have me chosing a different grip every time the weather changed and i wanted to play a gun a different way

which is ideally what grips should be, they give you some advantage, and take something away, they enable a playstile, and they make the gun worse at another

[loud sand]

looks dope, but tbh i'd cut down the benefits a bit, cuz -23% on vertical alone is huge from jsut one attachment, if there'd be an equivalent of tactical barrel that would also cut vert recoil by say 20%, u essentially can eliminate vert recoil on a lot of guns, unless its like this already in BBR with vertical and tactical combo and im just overreacting

[night turtle]

just let us laser people (please)

[jagged grail]

Hmmm, i can see that being a problem, i can definitely reduce their effectiveness a bit

[loud sand]

i just dont like when attachments have too much effect on guns in general, they should be a flavor thing, to tune the already strong gun in some area

[jagged grail]

I like attachments that feel important, for me it's more of a middle ground, a gun has a niche, but you can push that niche around with the right attachments, not really making it better or worse, but expanding it's use in some areas and retracting it in others

Not really turning a gun upside down, mind you, but directing the parts where it's good at in some way or another

Like a middle ground between "The attachments make the gun", and "The gun dictates the attachments"

[loud sand]

yea, i can get behind that mindset and i wouldnt mind it being that way

[jagged grail]

Oh, looking at the wiki for attachments, the max 23% is only 3% above the current vertical recoil

so it's barely better than the current vert grip recoil control wise, which isn't bad for a grip that actually hampers your mobility quite a bit

well, it doesn't also mess with a bunch of peripheral stats and hamper your horizontal control, so i'd still say it's a good balance

[loud sand]

hmm, perhaps it could be that way

but one change i'd make is to RK6 foregrip, i'd add 20% draw speed benefit on top of the ADS, cuz ADS alone isnt that appealing when u can significantly decrease recoil instead, so it would be a very good cqb grip

overal good idea for grip rebalance

[jagged grail]

Oh, that seems like a gread idea yea

[pale bough]

I GUESS I can accept this

[night turtle]

another day of @jagged grail being fricking 🇧 🇦 🇸 🇪 🇩

[jagged grail]

Nah this is just hyperfocus

[night turtle]

but based hyperfocus ❤️

[wide viper]

outside of the rangefinder the side rail attachments are kinda useless except in very very specific situations. even in night-ops the flashlights give away your position and get you killed more than they help you. the red laser is OK, in that it doesn't make a literal laser beam marking your exact location to anyone with half a braincell. Honestly the only way I can think of to buff them would be to make the flashlights have a blinding effect similar to the flares during night ops. And make the effect diminished but still effective at close range during day time. as far as the lasers... maybe make the green laser like an alternate aiming device for use with NVG, and for the red laser make a more pronounced and noticeable benefit like more controlled hip fire.

[night turtle]

but i need red and green lasers to stay the same for swag factor ):

[plain gazelle]

make the lasers actually have a flipin laser

not just some miniscule dot that u cant even see when in combat

[night turtle]

you can, it's good for hip fire
acquiring the first shot is a lot easier with one

[round parrot]

give lasers passive stat buffs cause they useless after the first shot cause the new hitmarkers

[granite hatch]

let lasers be used to alt-aim regardless of time of day

and to complement that, give the rangefinder a built-in optical red laser for that exact purpose

[pale bough]

The fucking short mag on the MK20 increases recoil 💀

[sick totem]

Dear diary

Half the attachments on any gun still suck

[granite hatch]

it also increases recoil on... well, im pretty sure every short mag in the game increases recoil. its so dumb, because honestly it looks really slick on the ak74, having essentially a compact AK. but it performs like ass

[night turtle]

looks like the kalash from metro exodus with the short mag

[flat blaze]

Auto-bolt makes no sense, why adding a manual bolting mechanic if you can get rid of pretty quickly with no drawbacks???

[silver nova]

What makes no sense is bipod making mg worse at every stat and worse to use at every situation

[oak stirrup]

Lasers need to be more visible, the green should also be more visible than the red as green lasers are more powerful, as they are now l can barely see them, and don't see them at all past like 5 meters, or when l'm moving quickly checking corners or ttrying to acquire targets which in my opinion is the whole point of the thing

[round parrot]

yeah

make the laser brighter

and give them a thin line like they do in night

just way thinner

with a way less bright line

[tiny star]

Create a way to customize medium range sights, like doing a crosshair in any game (changing color, size and everything available).
This could be unlocked with 1000 kills on the specific weapon for example🫡

[granite hatch]

1000 kills is a LOT for what should be, IMO, a basic feature

[loud sand]

1k kills shouldnt be unlocking anything besides camos, 500 kills on quick mag ump is a chore

[granite hatch]

its 200 now

[pliant haven]

What about sling on siderail, makes switching away from primary faster but switching into it a tad slower. Useful in particular for stuff like snipers and LMGs that may want to quickly pull sidearm out.

[terse barn]

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[granite hatch]

this is a very good idea, though perhaps not on siderail for snipers (not gonna pick a sling over the rangefinder, so it would end up being a bit pointless for snipers). perhaps it could be available for all guns, but be a passive buff for Recon since we snipers are constantly switching to pistols, gadgets, binocs (which i think should also be a recon passive), so being able to do that quicker would be a great passive for recon that would hardly upset any sort of game balance

[silver nova]

Canted sight slot

Man that slot is has almost no use

[pliant haven]

I mean, the idea is to have some tiny bit of tradeoff involved. I think rn the rangefinder is the only thing in that slot with meaningful utility.

It could work e.g. for more CQC oriented builds where the lack of a rangefinder isn't so problematic.

[pale bough]

Ok

We NEED 2 canted sight slots

One on the left and one on the right

I need to be able to have 4 FU sights at once

[pliant haven]

using both sights at the same time like

[granite hatch]

that is the single-most scuffed PS job ive ever fucking seen

[granite hatch]

if for some reason, oki insists on the medium scopes keeping that dumb-as-shit tiny amount of vertical sway that they currently have, at least let bipods eliminate it. its a really dumb thing in the first place, doubly so that theres no way to eliminate it

[terse barn]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[granite hatch]

im 150% against artificially forcing players to use long range scopes in their current state. until the glint is fixed (with a healthy dosage of reworking how its used as a nerfing mechanism, as well). There is no amount of reasonable advantage that can outweigh the glint, and even when the glint is fixed, some people still dont want to deal with it, as its a bit antithetical to sniping as a concept, and sacrificing magnification to get rid of the glint is a fair-enough trade-off if you ask me

honestly in general, i think "giving one gun/attachment/whatever disadvantages"as a substitute for simply "buffing another thing you want to be used more" is something you have to be really careful with. Make the bad thing feel better to use, instead of making the good thing feel worse to use, otherwise youll end up with a game that is, in general, kind crappy-feeling

[terse barn]

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[pliant haven]

Mentioned in Recon thread but I think an alternative debuff would be to force you out of ADS for any movement (WASD or stance change) while using a long scope.

Same goal is achieved of forcing snipers to expose themselves for a window of time before one shotting someone, but doesn't make it so painfully obvious.

And if you know where they are shooting from this would probably make them even easier to take down, so it rewards snipers who don't just sit in a single spot.

[terse barn]

One message removed from a suspended account.

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[pliant haven]

I don't even like snipers and I think some approach that lets glint be removed should be attempted tbh. It's just so silly seeing this lighthouse suddenly pointing at you.

[terse barn]

One message removed from a suspended account.

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[velvet walrus]

glint just needs to have a much tighter cone, really

and the tightness needs to scale with the magnification

the real problem with glint is that you see snipers that aren't even aiming for you

[loud sand]

glint shouldnt pass through objects first lol

[muted laurel]

I was thinking of this too. It should become visible, but be tiny, when you enter the outer edge of someone's scope. Then it should grow the closer to the middle of the scope you are.

[pallid cave]

anyone figure out the compensator, something that is meant to mitigate horizontal recoil, instead mitigates verticle recoil?

[granite hatch]

i mean, it reduces hori recoil by more than twice the amount it reduces vert recoil (-5% horizontal, -2% vertical). thats more than the hori-reduction on the tactical barrel, at the very least. my complaint with the compensator is the huge debuff to accuracy for absolutely no reason

[round parrot]

not really a huge debuff also the accuracy stat does nothing/very little

[granite hatch]

i mean, its a 13% decrease, thats pretty sizeable. and i doubt the accuracy stat is going to stay unused forever

[round parrot]

There will probably be an attachment rework before they patch the accuracy stat

[granite hatch]

true

[pallid cave]

a compensator should have very little horizontal though, but very high vertical since they push the gases upwards or downwards based on the model. don't know any one off the top of my head that doesn't.

[granite hatch]

aye, but its just one of those video game tropes thats less confusing to most people if you just go along with it

[pallid cave]

most video games make it apply a lot of vertical recoil if its in the game. hell I'm pretty sure compensator/Vert grip was a meta in an older cod because of it.

[muted laurel]

Yeah real world logic need not apply. It has to be fun.

[pallid cave]

there's like 3 good attachments in any given category because they are all so similar.

at least with IRL logic they would actually do different shit

[lean wing]

drastic changes between attachments would be nice for example:
20% vertical recoil reduction - vertical grip
20% horizontal recoil reduction - muzzle break
Noise Dampener = lower audio signature
Supressor = no tracers
Drum mag = 60 rounds / longer reload 5% less vertical recoil
Fast Mag = base ammo count / 5% horizontal recoil increase / 25% faster reload speed
🤔

The possibilities are endless but we stay with minor changes to attachments even though we have so many...
some attachments are just a pure negative to others which is kind of ridiculous for diversity's sake.
Also I don't really understand why the guns have such awful recoil / randomness to them in the first place
if this game was trying to mimic squad / realistic gunplay guns should have very minimal recoil
expecting that our soldiers are above the age of 5 and have some amount of arm strength.

[pallid cave]

yah all the weapons are really nerfed. like hey your weapons heavy(more ammo) oh yeah now your recoil is worse. how does a mk.14 have worse recoil than some of the smgs.

also, the fucking reload animations. I get that they need to be longer, but why the hell do we spend more time looking at the gun and magazine than we do reloading. not to mention some guns, like F2000 and Mp5 have the same reload no matter if the mag is empty or not.

[velvet walrus]

no tracers would be cancer

and i say that as someone who would benefit from it the most, since i love being a dickhead behind enemy lines

[pallid cave]

less tracers would be fine, especially for the bigger guns

hell, having automatics be every 5 and single shots be every 2 would be really nice.

[icy quail]

Battlebit characters be like "hmmm i seem to have been caught reloading in the middle of an active firefight, let me just take 10 seconds to pull the charging handle"

[pallid cave]

Yeah and all the hand animations are slow, like they didn't make different animations, they just really, really slowed them down. my hand is moving is slow motion as it seats the magazine, take my time removing my hand and putting on the bottom to double tap it to check(still slow mo)

its asinine.

[flat blaze]

Accuracy penalty essentially negates its advantages.

[night turtle]

that accuracy stat only affects hip fire, it's really not as bad as you might think

[granite hatch]

wait why the fuck is it called accuracy then lol

[night turtle]

i have no fucking clue ask oki or ox1gen ig

[granite hatch]

(also, gun stats need clarification. i have 800 hours and still dont know the specifics of some of the stats. thats fucking dumb)

[night turtle]

control comes to mind

[pallid cave]

it does effect how close the weapon will shoot to where you aim, you see it at 150 distances

[granite hatch]

but if its hipfire-specific, just plainly calling it "accuracy" is more than a little confusing

[pallid cave]

its not

[pallid cave]

if you take an Ar with low accuracy, lets say 60, if you fire at 150-200 meters plus, you will see the bullet hit in a random place inside a cone around your crosshair

[granite hatch]

that assumes i can see

ive already gotta do the gamer lean to snipe

[pallid cave]

so it does effect aimed fire, but its not that big of a deal unless you you are trying to plink someone at range with a low acc weapon

most snipers have 100 acc unless you decide to lower it

[granite hatch]

and even then, oki gave the medium scopes the smallest, tiniest bit of motherfucking vertical scope sway that you literally cant do anything about except go prone

making that "100 accuracy" usually rather deceptive

[pallid cave]

I mean if its that much of a problem I just shift to steady

[granite hatch]

you cant

that doesnt do anything on medium scopes

you have to go prone to get rid of it. not even a deployed bipod will eliminate it if youre not prone

because its not part of the breathing mechanic that long range scopes use. its just some stupid visual sway

[pallid cave]

I have never noticed that, like ever.

[granite hatch]

its slight, but its there, and its really annoying with, for example, the SSG69 which is already hypersensitive to slight inaccuracies in your aim because of how much drop it has at range

the slight horizontal movement is just me moving my mouse onto the head of the target, but the vertical sway is the game doing its own thing, not me moving my mouse

[pallid cave]

huh, I never noted that using the 4x scope. I'll have to look for it now

and to be fair

the bullet still goes to where the crosshair is

so the stat is fine, I think maybe control fixes that sway?

I'll have to check myself

[granite hatch]

and see, theres different opinions flying around about that as well, some people say its always centre of screen when ADS, others say it depends on context. same thing with the control stat, youll always hear different claims about what it actually does

[pallid cave]

I meant the sway, but as long as you are ADS, you are aiming straight at your target no matter how blocked your view is

[granite hatch]

sure, but at 1000m, even small amounts of sway like that will mess up your shot, but unlike with proper scope sway mechanics you cant just hold shift to temporarily eliminate the sway so you can reliably put your shot where you want it to go

[pallid cave]

to be fair... you shouldn't be rocking a medium scope for a 1k shot

[granite hatch]

why not?

all of my longest shots were done with a medium scope

[pallid cave]

because its a medium scope? even the 4xs are meant to be used at most like 600 meters lol

yeah that's cause people practice with them and glint makes the larger scopes not as useable, its not meant to be the case

[granite hatch]

the long range scopes are too dogshit to be a reasonable alternative

[pallid cave]

its possible, but not what's supposed to happen

[granite hatch]

oki's refusal to fix glint makes it a semantics argument anyway, sadly lol

[pallid cave]

a slight delay for the glint would be an easy fix

[granite hatch]

because until he does fix glint, medium scopes are the go-to for sniping, regardless of range

[pallid cave]

like 1-3 seconds depending on power or something

[granite hatch]

and honestly? id be 150% okay with that sway on medium scopes if something like a bipod would eliminate it when deployed

[pallid cave]

add Arma 3's attach function for the bipod?

[granite hatch]

yes please. a bipod that deploys automatically never feels like an actual bipod

[pallid cave]

any "auto" things are usually not good to implement

[granite hatch]

or hell, just get rid of glint on the 6x scope. makes life WAY easier for new players who are back to being forced to use the 6x for each new sniper, and 6x is hardly "high magnification"

[pallid cave]

the "auto lean" back to center is annoying, the auto "gun down" is also very annoying because of how finnicky it is. auto-bipod that only works while prone is not a great tool either, especially with all the downsides for it that it's got for some reason

[granite hatch]

the auto-down for guns when ADS fucked me so many times with the L86. that thing is MASSIVE lol

[pallid cave]

Like I would prefer just being told "cannot move closer" than the epileptic fit the current system gives

being recenterd near walls is also stupid, let me lean on the wall or something, it sucks being in a fight and you are recenetered suddenly because of a pole or someshit

[granite hatch]

yep. i think im kind of okay with that for leaning, because its a better alternative to getting blasted because i cant move out of line-of-sight of a doorway because im still leaned, but it just sucks with the ADS

but yeah, i think only walls and actual cover should trigger the auto-unlean. not poles and like... a small tree or whatever

[pallid cave]

even then man

[granite hatch]

yeah even then its highly situational

[pallid cave]

you can't look out windows in some spots unless you want to look straight out

or lean out of the window

[granite hatch]

and at that point its just whack-a-mole for the enemy

[pallid cave]

those walls auto centering you means you cannot shoot out the window, but you can still get shot

especially if you were tracking someone

it does it on prone too

like what?

[granite hatch]

true. one of those "how the hell does this get implemented properly?" sort of features

[pallid cave]

I'm tilting my body a little to the side, why can't I do that?

[granite hatch]

its a good idea in theory, but has problems when applied practically

[pallid cave]

the "lean up on a wall" way works well

it basically checks for wall, then distance, and moves your lean in accordance

while still an "auto" system

because its gradual based on your controlled movement, it works really well, especially getting tight angles on windows that just aren't possible right now

[granite hatch]

^ oki do this right now please ^

[flat blaze]

I am actaully reconsidering the compensator, the penalty to accuracy is not so terrible in practice. If you want to decrease horizontal recoil maybe it's better than the flash hider unless the vertical recoil is already super low like the m110.

[flat blaze]

One parameter that I have not yet understood what it does is 'control'.

[jagged grail]

Iirc it's something about how much aim deadzone you get
(IE how much your gun moves the same way you turn when not aiming down)
I could be wrong though, but it feels like it's most useful at super cqc where you're point firing instead of aiming and need to snap faster to the targets

It shouldn't affect anything noticeably unless it's something that nukes your control like having a bipod for some reason

From my experience at least, unless you're very much trying to get a super close quarters only no aim setup, it's basically unimportant

[pale bough]

No one knows what it does, it's basically nothing

[cunning apex]

Ah yes, 2 months ago

[granite hatch]

just gonna spitball this; for certain guns, i think ammo types as a magazine attachment would be really interesting. Lets the player choose between various stat trade-offs to suit a few different purposes. A few rough examples that I would personally like to see, but also to just give a general idea of what I mean;

• 6.5 Creedmoor ammo for the M110, which would trade a 5-8 damage decrease for +100 velocity AND a better bullet drop ratio over distance, as well as +1 total mag and/or slightly faster movement speed

• .338 Norma Magnum for MSR, which would have its damage decreased (I personally think the MSR should have its base damage swapped with the M200, so this ammo would decrease damage from THERE, not current base damage) for +150 velocity and much better bullet drop ratio over distance, as well as an increase to movement speed and reload speed

• .44 Magnum OR .357 Magnum (but not both) for the Desert Eagle, which would trade significant damage for large increases to mag size, movement speed, aim speed, and reload speed

• 9mm for the Vector, which would trade fire rate (down to 900) for more damage (up to 25-26), less recoil, faster reload and ADS, and slightly faster movement speed

• .45 ACP for the USP, which would trade a decrease in velocity, mag size, and firerate, as well as an increase in recoil for more damage (probably up to 33 or 34, to break up the lack of variety in the pistol category)

ideally, these ammo-swap mag attachments would all be balanced so that it overhauls the guns performance WITHOUT stepping on the toes of other guns as far as identity goes

[junior skiff]

I think there should be stats and attachments for aiming sway/bob when strafing and aiming strafe speed as opposite stats. An attachment that increases aiming strafe speed makes the gun sway more when strafing

[loud sand]

when i bought BBR i thought that's what control stat was doing lol

[round parrot]

It's what it's supposed to do but I don't think it works

[silver nova]

More mov speed when ads?

[terse barn]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[round parrot]

No

[fervent echo]

seriously what is the point of bipods if it just cant sit on terrain properly

[cunning apex]

Better yet, even if it is deployed, a vertical grip or se-5 feels like they have better recoil reduction

[pallid cave]

Bipod only effects sway when deployed I think?

which... is what it's supposed to do, but also means that for anything not being used to snipe, it's kinda worthless especially with all the debuffs equipping it gives you and your weapon.

[cunning apex]

Sway. On an lmg. Bruh.

Pretty sure bipod in real life help with recoil...

[pallid cave]

not really no

they are meant to allow you to rest your weapons weight without using your arms, and allow it to settle. they might mitigate some horizontal recoil but thats not their intended purpose. The weapons that use it are either "shoot in that general direction" or are used to fire one shot at a time, so it does not need to do so.

[cunning apex]

So what you are telling me is that Oki should just remove bipod from the support weapons

[pale bough]

I feel like a bipod would allow for better recoil control

like massively better recoil control

You don't have the weight of the gun to worry about and your arms shaking, so you can take up a better position with your hands to and put more force on the gun

[pallid cave]

that's not quite how it works, especially since when you use it you generally do not have your arms that far forward. the recoil control comes from the weight of the weapon generally.

[pale bough]

Disclaimer, i know nothing about recoil control

[jagged grail]

It doesn't really have to do much with realism, the reason bipod generally massively mitigates recoil in games is because it works design wise
Recoil control on a deployed LMG for example, is the way it is to increase the distance at which you can produce semi-accurate full auto fire at the cost of remaining still

From what i understand in this situation, the main reason why Oki doesn't want good recoil control on bipods is the fear of making the LMGs feel like laser beams up close, which is understandable to a certain extent, but it nullifies the one good use of them for the class

I think instead of dampening the recoil control massively, the key to the problem lies mostly on finding a way to reduce the guns' close quarters capabilities while the bipod is deployed

Sorry for the repost, but my idea on how to do such a thing would go like this

[pallid cave]

that all sounds good, but at this rate just fixing the massive fucking debuffs the various attachements get would be a massive upgrade. Still wanting that weight based system for speed and ergo

[round parrot]

that's a good idea

[limpid cedar]

1. Rework quick mags - makes no sense why they add recoil and some have lesser ammo than regular mags. If they have lesser ammo, then atleast it should work like a short mag and give some other short mag benefits like run speed.
2. Suppressors suck - you can still see the bright ass tracers, more so in night maps. Make it less prominent without removing tracers completely when using suppresors.
3. Long range scope reticles - can we have some variety ?
4. Some attachments like grips feel redundant in general - not much room to experiment with them since it usually destroys the stats.

[night turtle]

attachments will get reworked, eventually...
tracers are a pain and i prolly won't play night maps until getting blinded by your own tracers is fixed

[limpid cedar]

defeats the purpose of using suppressors at night imo 🤣

[cinder veldt]

They used to not be massive, I'm not sure why it was changed.

[worn halo]

they still massive btw

[night turtle]

something something readability 🤷
just another thing making nightmaps unbearable

[velvet walrus]

suppressors are good

removing tracers would be OP

gamers generally have ears, and the brain has faster reaction times to audio than to visuals

plus getting rid of muzzle flash also makes you much harder to spot, since you don't turn into a lighthouse when you fire

especially useful if you're shooting from inside a building. it's far harder to see where the tracers are coming from than where the muzzle flash is

[limpid cedar]

I suggested making them less prominent

smooth brain fr

everyone knows removing them will piss off more people

[worn halo]

^ same here

[pallid cave]

have suppressors just have a IR-dim or something.

[granite hatch]

loudeners; significant increase to muzzle flash and sound spread, as well as a significant increase to the actual volume of the gunshot itself, but no tracers :)

[pallid cave]

that would be OP in the bigger gamemodes

[loud sand]

just keep the big suppressor the way it is, with all its huge downsides, but buff it so it removes the tracers

maybe decrease the velocity on top of it, but idk, big suppressor by itself is really punishing to use

[granite hatch]

Decreasing velocity would suck. Player movement is already very fast for a game that doesn't use hitscan. Pistols had a velocity buff for that exact reason. And as devildog said, outright remove of tracers would be rather OP, but I do think making the long suppressor at least significantly reduce tracer brightness (and maybe delay its activation after leaving the gun) would give it some reason to exist. Even on single-shot guns where you dont really care about recoil, its honestly not super worth using in its current state

[velvet walrus]

fuck off with the "removes tracers" shit lmao

you people genuinely don't know what you're asking for with that. it would be so aids

being a rat is already super strong, now imagine how strong it would be if you could shoot at people from behind without any tracers or muzzle flash

[jagged grail]

I feel like this should be the actual drawback of stuff like the muzzle brake
A bigger vertical recoil decrease than the tactical muzzle countered by making the muzzle flash absolutely massive and the sound louder
Get more control out of your gun at the cost of the moment you pull the trigger the entire city block knows where the shots came from

[jagged grail]

i don't know about you but i haven't had issues finding out where people are basically at all in this game
it might just be my war thunder brain ptsding me into seeing a tank on every shrub but i never have any issue taking out hulled down folks

its the runners that tend to be way harder for me, you can't know where they are to properly counter them, by the time you've prepared for where they were they are already somewhere else entirely

[pallid cave]

this is another form of rat

[jagged grail]

by runners i'm specifically refering to people flanking 3 kilometers behind our own lines and relying solely on going fast and snap shooting whoever appears in front of em
people that camp out back and change positions are just doing it well imo, and they are still easy-ish to counter
having to swap positions to effectively fire from a distance is less being a rat and more so just playing long range guns to their advantage

[pallid cave]

eh fair enough

[jagged grail]

on a different topic, i don't know if this actually is the case stats wise, but a tactical and vertical combo on a Ultimax feels easier to recoil control than a deployed bipod and a tactical lol

i definitely feel more muzzle climb with the bipod than with the vertical

and considering the bipod nukes every other stat... it is rather worrying

[night turtle]

nope the bipod - in total - reduces your recoil (both v and h) by 30%, the v-grip only reduces your v-recoil by 30% and adds like 4% h-recoil, it's actually quite nice not having the weird side to side movement on the ultimax
it works wonders if you got a good spot
(use the bipod, i'm definitely not insane)

[jagged grail]

I use it too, maybe i'm also losing my mind

Nothing more painkillers can't fix >: )

[night turtle]

average bipod on lmg patient enjoyer

[velvet walrus]

have you considered that maybe it's because everyone has tracers and most people have muzzle flash because suppressors have penalties

[pliant haven]

We did it bois 😎
#dev-wip message

[pale bough]

It's happening boys, it's finally here

The rework

[flat blaze]

Damn, just when I had understood how to fine tune all weapons!

[round parrot]

someone suggested it before but there should be a keybind to deploy bipod rather then have it auto

cause the auto system is really janky

[flat blaze]

For the attachements I will wait for MrWong's video.

[harsh forge]

vamp B seems pretty good now

[hidden cairn]

I think the easier solution is having it work like it already does but also be 100% of the time active while prone, no matter how fucked up the ground is

[round parrot]

yeah

[hidden cairn]

Tho I would like to see a toggle, its probably harder to implement correctly

[round parrot]

it would be nice if it could deploy on windows tho

or ledges

[hidden cairn]

I remember how painful it was going from battlefield 3 to 4, Bipod just wouldnt work correctly 80% of the time on launch

[hidden cairn]

Yeah, but maybe just making it more lenient on when it detects a suitable spot, worst case scenario it would trigger when facing a wall, but you cant even shoot anyone through the wall so its not a problem

[worn halo]

animu gorl pfp UwU

[mystic iris]

#bringbacklongbarreldamage

[regal folio]

LB/HB Damage is gone, no more glory to the 30,31 damage guns

[velvet walrus]

tbh LB/HB damage was really dumb, especially when guns essentially revolved around them (like famas and M110 in ye olden days)

it'll be good for game balance, you'll be able to have a gun with 32 or 33 damage without having to consider it falling into 3 shot territory

[mystic iris]

the LB damage bonus was different for each gun for that reason

it didn't cause any problems that I'm aware of

[velvet walrus]

i already gave 2 examples of where it caused problems

famas and M110 had to be changed because of LB

[mystic iris]

yeah, in ye olden days

that was fixed

[velvet walrus]

the issue was with LB, not with the guns themselves

[mystic iris]

it is definitely worth it to have so much more variety in the game

[velvet walrus]

also, every gun had the same damage bonus. it was just a % boost

[mystic iris]

fair, never bothered to check that

[velvet walrus]

it was +5% damage

[worn halo]

attachment rework more like attachment nerf

[mystic iris]

we have lost so much

[regal folio]

I expect them to buff the less used attachments to the same level of usefulness of those Flash Hider, Tactical, Long and Heavy barrel, but then we have a general nerf and a minor buff instead, which greatly effect some weapon

For example Scorpion with vert grip is less effective now, iirc

If no barrel and mag attachment doesn't already hurt it

Don't get me wrong, it's still a good gun.... if i can hit someone with it

[mystic iris]

scorpion is now the fastest killer in the game without contest

[velvet walrus]

it always has been. but it's really sad that it doesn't get magazine or barrel attachments

scorpion really needs more love

[mystic iris]

LB FAL would marginally beat it against an intact opponent with high accuracy

[regal folio]

Overall, practically, FAL is more practical for me

[worn halo]

you use a grip but it adds like 0.2 Hrecoil
to compensate for that you use a barrel and that has like 0.3 Vrecoil

u take everything off and release the weapon is better without attachments

[night turtle]

you gotta use the right attachments in conjunction with each other now

[worn halo]

u put it like that it sounds nice

[night turtle]

it works wonders when done right

m4 is even more of a laser than before, m249 and ultimax just go brrrrrr

[round parrot]

i think the hera could use some retuning

lots of negatives

for basically nothing

also it seems mags were left out of the rework

most of the extended mags are horrible

[limber oar]

I hate the new long barrel, its so much worse

[keen hornet]

Any other attachments that do basically nothing?

[limber oar]

the long barrel was my favorite barrel because it was a great high risk high attachment, in the sense that it was higher damage, velocity, and accuracy for higher recoil

and it made sense because it was one of the last attachments you could get, so you had already become pretty good with the gun

now the long barrel is just boring

it doesn't feel like a reward anymore for grinding out your favorite gun

[night turtle]

heavy barrel feels like a worse tactical imo
slightly better recoil, velocity, accuracy and fsk in exchange for downsides that just make it not really worth using

[limber oar]

its a slight buff that is better for closer to mid range players, which seemed to be the point of this attachment/grip rework

The long barrel on the SVD made it almost a sniper with its accuracy, and made the g3 feel much more like a dmr

Now the long barrel can't even get the mk14 to 100 accuracy

[night turtle]

accuracy if it did anything

[keen hornet]

You really don't need 100 accuracy ngl

As long as you're close to it you're fine

[limber oar]

yeah but thats the point of dmrs: you arent always that close

its like a less powerful but semi auto sniper that can also be used in close range in a pinch

honestly this rework really makes me want to stop playing, because I really wanted attachments to do more

and outside of the grips that improve draw speed/reload times, they do less usually

[night turtle]

accuracy doesn't matter on snipers and dmrs while ads, so you can just happily ignore that stat

[limber oar]

yeah but even still, no damage increase and not as big of a velocity increase

its like why even remove the damage increase/decrease

it made more interesting trade offs

[keen hornet]

There is a separate ADS accuracy stat that overrides your accuracy stat, and when it gets overwritten it's normally 100 accuracy when ADS

[night turtle]

prolly for balancing, hopefully we'll see the ak get 32 dmg, the f2k 24, l86 32 etc etc

[limber oar]

why would those be different lol, nobody hipfires enough for it to matter

[night turtle]

ask oki lol

[keen hornet]

I have no clue man

[limber oar]

i just wish there was more interesting attachments that could do that, instead of going in the opposite direction and making nothing increase any damage

[keen hornet]

To be fair tho, it makes it so you HAVE to use that attachment, which is boring imo

And also insanely unbalanced

[night turtle]

well we had 3sk l86, 3sk ak, 4sk famas (it's no longer reliant on the barrel lol) and stuff like the f2k would easily become op

[keen hornet]

3stk AK74 was OP in the play test era

If you weren't using it you were automatically at a disadvantage

[limber oar]

unless you use something longer range

[night turtle]

is that any fun tho?

[keen hornet]

Kinda, people could Lazer others at like 150m+ pretty easily

So it needed a nerf

It literally outclassed most other options

[limber oar]

I enjoy dmrs, you can take shots at somebody while sitting for a couple of seconds, and then you can move up and still kick ass

[limber oar]

to be fair I still feel that is what happens with most assault rifles/smgs

[night turtle]

lmg

[keen hornet]

It's bc of the ADS 100% accuracy thing

[night turtle]

nope, aug and a few others maybe
smgs will start sucking at about 50m

[limber oar]

I hate the lmgs for that reason lmao, you can have so much armor and still do better then a dmr at medium range some of the time

[limber oar]

yeah I guess for smgs it isnt as bad anymore, but I feel like the game is just way too assault rifle focused now

and I find assault rifles really boring

[night turtle]

idk it feels like it has proper balance between all gun categories now

[limber oar]

Have you seen the short angled grip attachment? its like .4 seconds less draw time and .2 seconds less reload time. that seems very close range attachment to me

I just dislike how they put that in the game but nerf the long barrel

keep it equally extreme on both ends is my opinion on this

[night turtle]

dmrs, lmgs, ars, pdws, carbines (stayed the same pretty much) and smgs all won
snipers need a general rework, no point in trying to cater to them with attachments when the guns don't work as they should

[limber oar]

I dont use sniper, I use engineer because I like exploding stuff

Even if they removed the damage buff for long barrel, they should have kept the accuracy and velocity the same and then maybe lowered the recoil penalty a little bit for the removal of the damage increase

I talked about this in game with some people and one of them said they have never used anything else except the tactical barrel and the se5 the entire time they have played this game so I don't think it would have affected that many people

[night turtle]

well 🤷

it is how it is

[limber oar]

Overall, I think they should leave some attachments pretty boring but take less time to get, and the fun ones (like the long barrel) should be more varying and change the gun more

[limber oar]

yeah but maybe the developers read this and they make a poll or something

at least then I could see if I was in the majority or not

[night turtle]

the devs don't read these threads, they got themselves a fancy feedback team

[limber oar]

they did when zalifbay was released, so idk maybe

[night turtle]

the map threads are different to the normal feedback ones

[limber oar]

even still they added the feedback channel for a reason

a man can dream

[worn halo]

yeah see the issue here?
m4 never needed to be "more of a laser"

sg550 on the other hand could use something that reduces it's Hrecoil more
but right you get a LOT more overall Vrecoil that the whole weapon is just ain't worth using anymore

[worn halo]

can say the same for Magpul angled grip

[round parrot]

nah magpyl is fine

shift short angled is ehhhhhhhhhhhh

[night turtle]

at an expense btw...

[limpid cedar]

Bcm adding a lot of hrecoil definitely fucks up a lot of setups

[worn halo]

Vrecoil

also same thing with Vert grip adding too much Hrecoil on some guns

[limpid cedar]

oh right my bad

seems counterproductive to use any of them

also most of the grips have some sort of negative stats but the bipod which is not deployed has none

[velvet walrus]

long barrel was dumb

im looking forward to guns being balanced without having to consider falling into 3 shot territory because of that stupid attachment

[limber oar]

long barrel was great, and they could just nerf the attachment on those guns so it doesn't make it into 3 shot territory

[velvet walrus]

then you'd be making exceptions for attachments and giving them different stats on different guns

and that's a whole can of worms you don't want to open because it's bound to cause even more issues

[lament mirage]

Having m200 be the only good choice over 1000m makes me sad. I liked having a choice about what rifle I could use at long range, especially after getting a prestige.

[past mesa]

It was considered the only barrell attachment to be actually useful on every gun. Good it was nerfed. Now you have to actually think and look for certain loadouts instead of mindlessly taking vgrip + lb

[heavy tulip]

im somewhat liking the suppressor changes

short has been slightly nerfed (i think the vert recoil is higher)

but long has been buffed (1x vert)

the revolvers and the deagle however, gets an indirect buff because of that

putting long suppressor on any of those guns will send your aim up so high before

now its basically the BiS for those guns (almost zero downsides)

[severe pawn]

Damage Nerf for barrel attachments is awful

Especially with snipers, can't even headshot kill anymore

Like the changes are fine but nerfing damage that much is taking it too far, a reduction in the damage increase would be fine but straight up removing it has killed the fun for a lot of guns now they're less lethal

[timber pond]

I like there are a some downsides for attachments and feel like some have a specific role, though there are a few that could use some tweaking

[limpid cedar]

its always bad if instead of fixing bad items, all items are nerfed

[severe pawn]

I mostly agree, however all this change has done in practice is increase ttk, having attachments for different playstyles is great but the way the changes have been implemented just feel like all my guns have been kneecapped

[remote sequoia]

The removal of damage modifying attachments is going to be horrible in the short term but necessary in the long term from a game design perspective. The + damage from the long barrel was literally restricting design space for a gun's damage as it could bump it up to kill in one fewer shot than it was designed for

[severe pawn]

That's not really how that works though, if a gun is too OP with a certain attachment you can just make that attachment not fit the gun or give it a lesser damage bonus

[timber pond]

I think this might be what they are going for

[remote sequoia]

Having players have to learn exceptions for all the guns and attachments is not intuitive and is textbook bad game design unfortunately

[severe pawn]

It's not bad game design to adjust the bonus an attachment gives, there are already attachments that aren't available on all guns

[timber pond]

Oki would have to tweak attachments quite a bit in the code to make that happen

[severe pawn]

Not really, the lesser damage bonus can still be global, and it's not particularly hard to disable an attachment from fitting a gun on an as needed basis

[remote sequoia]

If the gun needs the long barrel damage to be viable so badly that's just a sign it should be buffed, not a sign it should get special treatment w.r.t. attachments

[severe pawn]

I think you're misunderstanding me
Guns that need attachments to be viable should absolutely be buffed to the point they are somewhat viable without attachments as a minimum.
With the changes implemented this morning attachments only really affect the range and handling of weapons now, meaning that if you can handle the recoil of a gun already there isn't really any way to improve weapons, bringing down ttk is one of the main reasons to upgrade guns in shooter games, this doesn't have to be done through increasing damage with attachments you can do it in other ways such as increasing fire rate (which doesn't apply to all weapons) or increasing the armour penetration for example

Changing attachments in the way that they have been would be absolutely fine if it was also accompanied by a rebalance of damage across all weapons that are affected, but that didn't happen

[timber pond]

Probably just slow ig

[limpid cedar]

Yeah I don't think they actually read any of the threads

they just open these and enjoy the arguments with some popcorn

[severe pawn]

I primarily play support, so with this change I avoid getting one tapped by snipers but I also do less damage to the people around me making the playstyle of "tank the damage from multiple people and clear a room" not really viable anymore

[limpid cedar]

@severe pawn has there been improvement to recoil when the bipod is deployed ? Also why do you say damage is reduced, are barrel attachments for lmg having damage debuffs ?

[severe pawn]

Barrel attachments no longer have any affect on damage at all. I believe there has been with the bipod but I've yet to try myself

[night turtle]

bipod no longer has all those dumb downsides
but in exchange now "only" reduces recoil by 30%
that doesn't really matter tho since inb4 the recoil debuffs on the bipod put it to 30% when deployed anyways and when undeployed it was 💀

[night turtle]

bipod never affected damage

[severe pawn]

I never said it did I was responding to the question about recoil

[night turtle]

oh whoops mb

[severe pawn]

The attachments rework is something that definitely needs to happen at some stage but it needs to be accompanied by a rebalance of weapons otherwise its in effect just a nerf, imo they should revert it and implement it when there is a overhaul of base weapon balance

[night turtle]

i'm pretty sure they are already working through guns like the ak74, l86 and the likes, snipers just need a whole face lifting
and with how many people now cry about the "op" exo there surely will be a balance patch in the next few weeks

[severe pawn]

Balance patches need to be all or nothing otherwise they just break balance more

[night turtle]

to me everything feels balanced rn
best balance since release for sure

[severe pawn]

To me it just feels like everything is the same now, I had fun grinding to improve the damage output of my guns now I'm just sorta bored since there's not really as much to work towards

[night turtle]

i got most attachments on most guns and everything now feels like you have to think about what you want, no longer "haha dmg go brrrr"

[severe pawn]

If ttk is the same no matter what you do to the gun does it really matter what attachments you have though

[night turtle]

yes. yes it does

you can have a dmr fal or an ar fal now

you can spec into close range agility or recoil on smgs

[past mesa]

At the moment when meta for nearly all weapons was vgrip and long barrel something was not right.

I gotta say some weapons got slightly better some for slightly worse but imo everything is in balance

[severe pawn]

But the damage drop off is the same regardless of what range you're at, ttk is the same at the same range no matter what attachments you have on the gun

[past mesa]

Except apparently sniper rifles but that's something I can't talk about since I don't play with sniper rifles

[severe pawn]

Sniper rifles got nerfed is all that really changed for them

They're actually the perfect weapons to highlight that the change in attachments should've been accompanied by a across the board weapon rebalance, I said that in the sniper feedback channel and was told I'd never played a game before because "snipers are always going to feel the same"

There are quite a few weapons that were only viable with the barrel attachments that increased the damage, so this change has just made them unviable to use, hence it should've been accompanied by a rebalance

[past mesa]

All weapons are viable to play with now. By taking away the damage increase from majority of guns the change made those weaker ones better

[severe pawn]

Yeah it's made them better in comparison, but that doesn't make them fun to use, or viable to use, it just means they're less shit in comparison to another gun

[regal folio]

Now that attachment got nerf, weapon that will hurt the most are the one that can't use either muzzle or grip, some didn't get affected much, but some will hurt more than others like Scorpion for instance

[mystic iris]

Most of the weaker weapons benefitted from the same damage bonus… that doesn’t make sense at all

I would argue this change has hit those guns the worst

[regal folio]

Unless giving each attachment a specific multiplier value on different weapons or weapon category as a whole

[past mesa]

That depends on the breakpoints if they were reaching any. More damage doesn't always mean faster killing

[mystic iris]

The only gun that didn’t reach any at all was the scar-H, a relatively fast killing one

The AUG, ACR, SG550 AK74, M4A1 all benefitted quite a bit from long barrels

[worn halo]

AK5C

[spark cairn]

What's the point of the ranger barrel if the long suppressor has the same bullet velocity?

[past mesa]

Now they are more equal. When only one of the attachments adds more damage people will only play with that attachment. With damage bonus removed it allows more variety without giving a certain edge against people

[mystic iris]

Not really. It is not as though the attachment didn’t have significant recoil downsides.

It was a fair choice whether to use them or not but now that choice has been removed really, because it barely matters any more

As I’ve already said, this is just effectively the same as removing a significant portion of guns from the game

[sick totem]

Dear diary

Suppressors are still bad

[worn halo]

nothing
shit balance

[sick totem]

https://tenor.com/view/scott-scott-the-woz-scott-the-woz-eating-cereal-eating-cereal-gif-26057324

[flat blaze]

Is it just me or have all the barrel modifications become practically useless? Now all barrel attacks affect bullet speed, which is even worse than losing damage bonuses, the real damage comes from bullet speed and horizontal recoil!

[jagged grail]

In general, I really liked how the overall rebalancing went, but yeah, I still feel there could be more done to differentiate attachments, and some of them balancing recoil control via fucking up other kinds of recoil Is counterproductive at best

This is kinda old but I had drafted a bit of an idea on how I'd personally do it
Balancing recoil control stats with more significant others like movespeed and reload times

I'd need to make a version of it for the barrels too, but in general having attachments have such recoil drawbacks that basically nullify any possible upside is pretty meh and I tried to avoid that

This system would allow people both to choose how much they want to sacrifice peripheral stats and mobility for control, and if they wanna do the opposite and get less controlability for more mobility

[limpid cedar]

Tbh I would have liked to seen some quick mags get short mag boosts like HB quick mag or HK quick mag which have lesser bullets than standard mag

[jagged grail]

I would have liked for extended mags in general to not nuke your recoil control
Them being a small nerf to mobility, ads and reload time makes much more sense than "haha gun sux now"

[limpid cedar]

yeah thats also a nice point. They have more drawbacks than actual benefits.

[jagged grail]

I gotta do a version of this for the barrels sometime, maybe after work

[limpid cedar]

Maybe they should open a wiki for all this

[past mesa]

Definitely Ak15 mags need a change because 40 round shouldn't be worse than 45 in every aspect

[keen hornet]

MSR getting 2 extra bullets and all the downsides for the extended mag

[limpid cedar]

Is oki the only person deciding stats ?

or rather how does his feedback team help him ?

[keen hornet]

Not sure

I assume the feedback team is helping

[limpid cedar]

Seems a little odd that small things like what you guys mentioned are being missed

and its not like it was mentioned for the first time ever

[keen hornet]

I'm sure the devs are looking at attachments as a whole, mags and others included. It wouldn't make sense to keep them like they currently are

[limpid cedar]

Dont know, I was hoping this would be THE update that would fix most of them in one go, atleast issues like the mag thingy

[keen hornet]

I hoped so as well, but it seems like the other attachments are coming later, hopefully soon

[jagged grail]

The badger going from 25 to 28 bullets at the cost of

everything

Even better, the 100 round mag on the mg36, that is actually just 60, and absolutely makes the gun dogpiss in every other aspect

You get: 20 extra bullets
I get: all your recoil control

[jagged grail]

Going back to this after playing a bunch, especially focusing on mid range to test visibility

I'd still disagree, tracers turned out to be the last thing I looked for, instead, I found myself spotting the minecraft cube men without even aiming at them very easily

Visibility in this game really isn't an issue and tracers are already nowhere near the main thing to look for when trying to spot someone

It's either the very glaring(pun intended) scope glint, or the silhouette of Steve McCraft

The game's graphics already do a great job at making visibility good without the tracers, and the only times I found myself getting owned by snipers was when I deliberately stopped caring to see how far I could go like a headless chicken

Am I saying tracers shouldn't be a thing? Not at all

What I'm saying is they play a way smaller role in visibility than one may think

[velvet walrus]

damn it's almost like spotting someone out in the open is a lot easier than spotting someone camping 1 out of 20 windows

[jagged grail]

Which I also have done?
Like it's not hard, it's extra easy to find people in this game if you give even an ounce of attention to your surroundings

I wasn't just talking about seeing people in the open, I was also talking about seeing hull down and window demons

Spotting them is by far the easiest part of dealing with them, and getting the hits in or closing the distance isn't much harder too

Getting rid of any camper that isn't literally inside of their own spawn can be trivialized by 20 seconds of forethought

When there is multiple respawning on each other, it's another story, but that would be a matter for the spawning mechanics thread

[velvet walrus]

yeah, nah. i've spent entire matches behind enemy lines and pretty much never got caught, and that's just without muzzle flash. i can't imagine how shitty it would be for the enemy team if i didn't have tracers

i guess it kinda depends on the map though. tensa and frugis really enable that kind of playstyle

[jagged grail]

Again, this isn't talking about "we shouldn't have tracers", this is saying that tracers aren't really the problem
The problem is the excess mobility and squad spawning that even allows people to remain hidden and strike at multiple points without people being able to catch up

But that is also for the movement thread

[granite hatch]

before the bipod change, MSR with extendoboy and bipod was literally the second slowest reload in the entire game, behind only M249+bipod.

but now with the bipod its only still very slow! improvements!

[jagged grail]

I like the heavy barrel finally being what it should have been from the start
A heavy recoil reduction attachment

What I don't like is just how muted a lot of attachments feel, like they overall feel like they have less of an impact than they should have in a lot of cases

Of course, with a few exceptions

But mostly what bothers me is when recoil reduction is countered via other kinds of recoil increase, it kinda defuses the whole purpose of recoil reduction in a few attachments

I think a good thing for the long barrel would be leaning further into velocity increases, since atm it's not as good as the suppressors on the area it should theoretically Excell at

And damage falloff range increase would be a cool addition to it as well

[granite hatch]

if you ask me, the attachments rework would have been a great chance to cull between 1/3 and 1/2 of the grips and barrels to give room for the remaining ones to be more unique

[night turtle]

it's a worse tactical lmao

[jagged grail]

Idk, the tactical has its issues, but I like the raw reduction of the heavy barrel quite a bit
I'd need to test it more though

[jagged grail]

For me, at least, what I'd want is something more akin to this
More expressive changes to recoil without it being a weird mishmash of stat changes that kinda cancel each other

[night turtle]

for me it's just worse 😦

[jagged grail]

The heavy barrel could definitely be better, but I really like it for the raw recoil reduction a lot of the time, though if I really want recoil reduction, I'll get myself the VAMB

[night turtle]

well depends on the gun aswell now 😄

[jagged grail]

True

[night turtle]

i like the new attachments, just need some fixes here and there but overall this shit actually works

[jagged grail]

But yea, stuff like horizontal recoil grips messing with vertical is weird to say the least
Like stuff specifically made to reduce recoil shouldn't have a weird gotcha to get extra recoil

And the fact some peripheral attachments just fuck with your recoil control makes them unusable

I don't think people get how important recoil control and mobility are when compared to other stuff
Like they are the primary important ones, followed by velocity and sound/muzzle flash

So the solution is definitely not just nuke recoil control for "utility" attachments

[topaz matrix]

w/out a test server I don't think anything is ever gonna feel like "done in one go"

[jagged grail]

Thinking about it
The heaviest, most drawback heavy attachment for general recoil reduction being a 7% decrease in vertical and horizontal is just deranged

My main issue with current attachments besides the fact that they balance stuff by adding more recoil a lot is how little the things that should actually reduce recoil do reduce it

There is very little incentive to using the "ads speed" grip if it delimbs your recoil control

• put horizontal recoil reduction barrel
• now vertical is fucked up
• put vertical recoil reduction grip
• it increases back your horizontal recoil
• your gun is also extremely poorly handling and slow now, congrats, you've made it worse

[spark cairn]

I think this should also note the angled grip has faster ADS speed which is valuable for snipers that otherwise have nothing else to put in that slot

[timber pond]

Sounds like a great idea

[jagged grail]

That's true though I did make the RK-6 mostly spec into that

[spark cairn]

does RK-6 do it faster?

[jagged grail]

I mean it is what we currently have lol

[timber pond]

No way 👀

[jagged grail]

No, that graph is a mockup I made of a proposed balancing

[spark cairn]

ah, fuck lmao

my bad

[timber pond]

I wonder when devcast VOD comes

Did he talk about attachment on it?

[jagged grail]

Basically my idea for it is

• you have your slew of recoil reduction grips, both specced in vertical, horizontal or mixed reduction

• some of them sacrifice less peripheral stats for less reduction, some sacrifice more along with movespeed for more recoil reduction

• you also have the opposite, grips that either increase specific peripherals severely at the slight cost of recoil, or that increase mobility at the cost of recoil

This way you can actually feel significant changes in gun handling just by choosing your options carefully

You can fully spec a low recoil smg into handling and movespeed and still do well recoil wise upclose, or get a battle rifle to be more controllable at the cost of your handling and mobility

Which kinda helps people have a bit of leeway in how they wanna mold a gun to their desired playstyle

Instead of a system that very rigidly enforces a playstyle per gun, and punishes you for not using the "meta" attachments

[flat blaze]

In BF4 barrel attachments improve one type of recoil and worsen the other, while grips improved only one stat, if I'm not mistaken.

[topaz matrix]

@jagged grail

smthn like this?

[round parrot]

We still need mags to be balanced

On 99% of guns anything but the quickmag is utter dogshit

mmm yes i can have 10 more bullets but i reload 50% slower and move the slower than a exo support

[hidden cairn]

I really feel like attachments should be very different and very strong in that one thing (with maybe a few inbetweeners)
like this:

• Grip that reduces V recoil
• reduces H recoil
• reduces both but less effect
• Faster ADS
• Faster reload
  etc...

Instead of them all having minor differences in a lot of stats. Would just need to find a balance of how much extra ADS speed is worth however much Recoil control you lost by not equipping the recoil ones.

[flat blaze]

The issue is there are too many attachments.

[limber oar]

it was great but it was the last barrel you unlocked, now its just kinda meh. it felt like a nice reward for playing with a gun you liked

[flat blaze]

From what I can see the grips have not changed that much, in the sense that they have kept their role, at least the ones that everyone uses others like angled and shift grip have changed completely because they were useless before. I have yet to understand the barrels, especially the speed and the fact that they now all reduce or increase recoil whether vertical or horizontal.

[harsh forge]

Why does silencers increase velocity? I thought it would be the opposite .

[regal folio]

Suppressor doesn't decrease velocity irl

But recoil increase make sense, some weapon had to be adjusted when quipped with suppressor because more gas has been pushed back into weapon operation

I'll not getting into realism any further, this is a videogame

[muted laurel]

I think the attachments in Rainbow 6 Siege have a pretty good concept going on in terms of what each one improves and by how much. Really makes it a case-by-case choice for each gun and playstyle/taste.

Sometimes you feel like you can handle the recoil very well as it is, and so you choose the attachment that eats first shot recoil. Other times you want to tame the spray pattern itself, and would rather work with that first shot recoil more.

Etc

BBR does very similar things