Support - Feedback

[woven fossil]

December 14th

ok that was a random date i pulled cuz i thought it had to do with ww2

[livid carbon]

soonTM

i'll do my imaginary great grand uncle proud, jk ofc

[opal pecan]

allow sup to generate squad points out of thin air

[gilded canopy]

allow supp to have infinite grenades

[opal pecan]

already kinda doesn't work with the trophy

[calm swallow]

I hope they fix bipod at the same time that way i can be a deliver-er of death

[livid carbon]

oh hell yeah, make those weird bri'ish and 'muricans shiver before that monster of a gun, this is a joke just sayin'

def gonna be one of my favorites depending on the implementation

hopefully it won't be a pea shooter just because of the 1100-1200 rpm

[calm swallow]

they'll probably give us the lower RPM version

like they have done with many other guns in the game

[livid carbon]

grrr but what guns have lower rpm than irl idk haven't had the time to nerd out about that kind of stuff

[calm swallow]

M4, AUG, M249 off the top of my head

[livid carbon]

and like lower than 1000 rpm would feel incredibly wrong

[opal pecan]

give support microguns

[livid carbon]

oh yeah aug mb, only heard about m4 being like 750-900 i think

[calm swallow]

Most MG3s are under 1000 rpm in real life, the faster RPM examples just have the extra shock and awe factor that make people remember them.

[opal pecan]

this has mere 2k rpm

[calm swallow]

the P90 is also lower than real life

[opal pecan]

let's not talk about Mk14 which supposedly has 700 RPM

[calm swallow]

MG36 is also slower by nearly 150 rpm

[livid carbon]

from what ik the mg3 which is just a slightly improved 7.62 nato using mg42 with 300rpm less and those things could get up to 1500rpm 💀

[calm swallow]

I assume we'll see the MG3 at 800-850 RPM, which is the slowest firing version.

Which will still be the fastest firing Machine Gun available in the game.

It may come out as a "Medium Machine Gun" though, which will be a class of it's own.

Very similar to what Battlefield V did.

[livid carbon]

cringe. i mean the mg5 is also supposedly coming, clocking in at 800rpm so uhhh...

but the mg3 as an "mmg" is just whacko imo

[calm swallow]

The difference is usually determined by weapon weight/dimensions and cartridge.

[livid carbon]

i mean the m60 is an lmg aswell right? if so there's no reason to not make the mg3 the same

[calm swallow]

IMO, no matter the designation, it should be implemented in a way that encourages the use of a bipod.

[livid carbon]

yes

but for that the bipod would have to work

[calm swallow]

M60 fires the same round as the MG3.

Fixing the bipod would immediately buff support.

[livid carbon]

exactly and i thought it was an lmg but that just might be my smoothbrain

[calm swallow]

I think the M60 will be a poor performer in BB unless they make it a 3 shot kill.

The current meta is speed and short range

[livid carbon]

ye 3 shotkill just like the scar etc otherwise it'd be a joke

[opal pecan]

just don't make it a worse mg36

[livid carbon]

don't make mg3 a slow husk of it's only true self or a long range scorpion, the thing should force you to do 3-7 rnd bursts and be clunky, but if you get that bipod set up you should be a terrifying people deleter

[calm swallow]

fix bipod

[weary fog]

They need to make the trophy system a primary gadget so its a choice between mines or grenade protection, not a choice between grenade protection and doing your only real job

at least do so for supports.

[flat sedge]

aye fair

[flat sedge]

could make the bipod innate on all LMGs or just remove most of the downsides due to it's activation requirement unlike other grips

[opal pecan]

idk, trophy feels fine as secondary gadget since it's really a "utility gadget" (while all primary gadget explodes)

[weary fog]

yeah, one unlucky recoil and you lose the bipods benefit, and then your gun is all over the place

if the ammo box was innate gear

[flat sedge]

In fairiness Sutopia

[weary fog]

MAYBE

[flat sedge]

the sledge hammer is a utility

as is the pickaxe

(and if I recall they go in primary as well,could be wrong)

[weary fog]

engineer has repair tool in both slots

not that anyone really runs it

[flat sedge]

and rpg in the second slot

[weary fog]

although sitting in a helicopter and just repairing constantly is worry free points

[flat sedge]

I just feel secondary gadget is the more class defining gear

[weary fog]

actually, a fun idea would be "Class slot"

where the class defining gear goes

Ammo kit, Sledge/Pickaxe, Medic bag

repair tool

drone for recon

and then they can expand the primary/secondary gadgets as stuff any class can run, with a few exclusives like anti-vehicle mines for engies or grapples for assaults

[flat sedge]

personally I like the idea of reinforcing class identies with the secondaries if we go that route

So sounds good

(sees peanut typing for a good bit & curiousity has begun to grow)

[celest kraken]

i agree, but the real issue is that our "real job" doesnt really contribute much. i have been running trophy and honestly havent noticed any issue. 90% of the time the only one who will need your resupply is yourself because you are spamming gadgets. life expectancy just isnt high enough in this game for the resupply to ever be needed outside of super chokey areas where you want to spam grenades and c4 which... well guess what else is better in that sort of situation

[flat sedge]

hmm

So peanut I have a question pop in my head I never asked

[weary fog]

I had an idea in an old run of this thread to limit starting magazines for all non support classes to 50% of what they can currently hold at max

[flat sedge]

Does getting revived remove that death from your KD?

[celest kraken]

it does. if you wait for revives it is actually hard to go lower than 1 for KD

the other person still gets the kill, but you lose the death

[flat sedge]

and Cheese, I had a idea awhile ago in the spawn thread

You don't fully restock on spawn

you have a min amount of bandages & magazines but otherwise the rest does not restock for free

[weary fog]

that seems like more the servers need to keep track of, or stuff cheaters could abuse

[flat sedge]

any reason?

[weary fog]

but my idea was that assault, medic, and engie only spawn with 50% of their maximum number of magazines, which they can get from support ammo boxes

meaning if you lose a mag on a fast reload, you can still replenish it

or if you wanna go on a long flank, you need to hit up a support crate first to cap out your total mags

and that supply drops from squad points only refill current mags, to further cement supports role

[flat sedge]

Well my idea is you start with full but you don't reset your inventory on respawning

(you'll reset your magazine count but any not picked up prior are counted as empty mags)

[weary fog]

our ideas aren't that far apart

[flat sedge]

Aye

I figured it would be interesting more so

[celest kraken]

i still think the better solution is extending life expectancy some way

[flat sedge]

That

is going to be a interesting discussion

[celest kraken]

because even halving the number of mags you start with you still have enough to run a 4+ KD with good aim and ammo management

[flat sedge]

I suppose easiest way is increase the TTK among various weapons

[celest kraken]

oh, not necessarily TTK

[flat sedge]

hmm?

[celest kraken]

remember, being revived doesnt refil mags

[flat sedge]

yep?

[weary fog]

crawling while down

[celest kraken]

planetside didnt have this issue of engineer being worthless because 90% of the time it is better to try and wait for a medic to revive you instead of respawning 50+ meters away

[flat sedge]

true

engineer is one of the,if not the second best at least XP farm

[weary fog]

I think the concensus is that armor needs to be damage reduction, not an additional health pool like it currently functions as

[celest kraken]

as long as you can respawn for a full refill right at the center of the action, resupplies will continue to be meh unless you absolutely fucking cripple the starting ammo of everyone

so honestly, part of the problem with support is not enough people bother waiting for a medic to revive them combined with spawning being too convenient

[flat sedge]

I would say damage reduction, or at least a way to repair the stuff

Well I feel the spawn change ideas in the feedback would help with this issue

not walk's to clarify

[celest kraken]

damage reduction is better imo, but some people are salty about the ideas of hard counters in the game (damage reduction would be significantly stronger against high firerate and low damage guns)

[flat sedge]

hmm damage reduction wise could be strong vs either

Suppose the solution would be split the varous guns into a damage type

like how planetside has Anti material rifle, sniper rifle, light anti vehicle and so on

[calm swallow]

fix bipod

[gilded canopy]

fix ammo box

[clear maple]

Buff weapon accuracy and handling

[gilded canopy]

handling mostly, its awful

[gilded canopy]

Fr what the fuck were the devs thinking about making the ammo box a deployable system AAAAAAGH

spent 5min trying to replenish a enginner only for him to die at 1 rocket left to kill the tank, he was asking for rockets in the chat but didnt see the box even when i was trying to show it to him

[inner monolith]

Let them be salty :D it's not even a hard counter, they still have the mobility advantage, it just means they'll actually have to use it to engage smartly instead of rushing from kill to kill

[paper vector]

Random counters are just less fun.

Increasing the amount of randomness in fights is bad for the skill ceiling of the game

[inner monolith]

You're right, we should scrap the progression system and just make everyone use an identical loadout. Then you can be completely sure that every fight is decided solely based on a person's skill. Because that is definitely the criteria by which you decide if a game is good.

Actually, let's scrap 127 vs 127. Too much randomness. Clearly 1vs1 is the only choice if you're serious about preserving the skill ceiling at all costs.

[paper vector]

I don’t really see how that’s relevant; it isn’t like some guns arbitrarily counter others.

[paper vector]

That also seems irrelevant, in that 127v127 would be no different to 1v1 on that front

Also that seems like one of those things people do in this server a lot. Where they take a concept and seem to think it has to be all or nothing, which is quite weird.

Randomness should be reduced where practical.

[inner monolith]

Indeed. It's not arbitrary, it's by designing around tradeoffs. Which is exactly what speed vs durability vs gear capacity vs available class loadouts is about.

And this should be entirely obvious, but you don't get to pick what weapon your enemy is holding, so either your definition of what is "arbitrarily random" is arbitrary itself or you should be advocating for a lot less things to be able to be different.

[brittle oak]

Support slaps rn i cant lie, especially with the m249

[opal pecan]

is that good or bad

[tawny umbra]

"slaps" is gen z for "really good"

[paper vector]

The weapon your enemy is holding doesn’t affect you as the choices you’ve made with your own loadout will not have any inherent advantage / disadvantage over whatever they might have. The only thing that really matters is that both players are using generally viable things.

An AUG, a Vector, a FAL, a PP2000:

they all don’t care at all about what your opponent has. They just care that you play into their strengths.

They’re not “let’s roll a dice to see if the next enemy I fight happens to counter me” because there is no counter to them.

[opal pecan]

sorry Im too old to understand, I would’ve think it’s bad

Feels like M249 is the “only” okay support weapon

Two are worse AR and one is worse M249

[celest kraken]

its not a dice roll though. im constantly annoyed that you try and refer to thse choices as if it is totally fucking random.

if im out in an open field then chances are the people who will threaten me are not smg users (because of damage falloff) but rather ar, dmr, and sniper users

idk about how you and other play but it regularly pick my weapon based on the environment i want to fight it. if i do this and then leave my advantagous environment then it isnt someone "randomly" having a kit that counters me but rather my own bad decisions catching up to me for choosing to poorly utilize a weapon

[brittle oak]

yes the reload is too long for the light support rifles

[paper vector]

There are very few places in battlebit maps open enough for that to ever apply, imo.

[celest kraken]

leme just pick up a sniper rifle and then try and duel smg users. oh no, i get hard countered

[paper vector]

There is rough terrain and cover everywhere

I don’t think people continuously switch their weapons around based on which part of the map they’ll be in as there isn’t usually much variety

[celest kraken]

then stop flimflaming about how armor would hard counter smgs when the smgs blatantly have the advantage because of this.

[paper vector]

Well, in this case not even weapons. They don’t switch their armour around

[celest kraken]

no loadouts is the issue imo, its annoying to need to change things around manualy

[paper vector]

I don’t see why anything should be countered by anything else. If SMGs are perceived as too strong then make them universally a bit weaker

[celest kraken]

rock rock rock gamepley generally isnt entertaining. thats why counters should exist

[paper vector]

Rock paper scissors is a very luck based game.
I don’t really like that aspect of it.

[celest kraken]

go play a fighting game then, i suggest yomi

[paper vector]

I am not interested in those.

From my experience this is also the main reason people don’t like shotguns and one shots in some games, as they are heavily impacted by luck.

(By virtue of having high single shot damage and very low fire rate)

Flattens the skill curve.

[celest kraken]

then i dont mean to be mean about this but i dont think you are qualified. fighting games have a LOT of rock paper scissors and yet it isnt luck but rather the skill comes from positioning and decision making to properly utilize your strong tools

if i play a zoner and then refuse to play at the distances that my best attacks are effective at then that isnt luck, that is me just making bad decisions. it isnt necessarily me getting hard countered

[paper vector]

If you have an SMG and you’re running around in basically anywhere in a battlebit map, there is no way to gauge whether you’re likely to run into a support player or not. Because the ranges they try to fight at always heavily overlap with yours unless you’re a long range sniper.

[opal pecan]

human reaction time is about 200ms which is 2 more bullets from running-like-madman smg which is enough to eliminate any armor advantage QED

[celest kraken]

you keep flimflamming dude. you already said there is rough terrain and cover everywhere that advantages smgs and brings you close enough that the armor wouldnt be so impactful (because damage falloff hasnt started to kick in yet)

you are basically admitting that support has no niche and smgs dominate 90% of engagements

[inner monolith]

It's actually pretty simple to figure out if you're going to run "into" someone. Stop and listen. Then use your additional mobility to position accordingly. Make steps with armor louder and more distinctive if you want, ta-da, now you have perfect information to decide what you want to do.

[celest kraken]

great point about slowing down. light/no armor smgs users have the mobility to just straight up abandon fights that they can expect to perform poorly in

[paper vector]

It only advantages SMGs if SMGs are inherently more powerful than other options at close range, which is debatable.

If SMGs were too powerful you can simply make them a bit less effective versus everyone, not much less effective vs a small proportion of the playerbase.

[opal pecan]

And heal back to 100 rinse nd repeat

[celest kraken]

"oh shit wide open field with enemies defending on the other end. maybe instead of sprinting across it and trying to fight at 50+ meters using an smg i should turn around and choose a flanking path with more cover that brings me closer"

[opal pecan]

It’s not all that hard to even go through all mags on ranger medic

[celest kraken]

do we want smgs to be less effective against everyone is the concept you seem to not be understanding

[paper vector]

Is this intended to be a counter argument? I don’t really see the relevance

[paper vector]

So do the first option rather than the second option

I don’t know why this should be related to support at all

[opal pecan]

Smg is kinda the shotgun in this game that’s supposed to dominate in CQC

[celest kraken]

im not going to continue this, you are not qualified. the more i discuss balance with people the more i think fighting games should be mandatory homework for anyone who wants to discuss this stuff

[opal pecan]

But general engagement distance is cqc

[paper vector]

Damn I need a degree in battlebitology

[celest kraken]

armor rework is a simple change that would carve out a medium range niche for support players against lighter weapons

[paper vector]

It would carve the niche at any range, with the proposals previously presented

[celest kraken]

it wouldnt strongly impact close range or long range. smgs can remain very strong at close range against pretty much everyone and decent at medium range against everyone except those wearing armor (in particular support)

[opal pecan]

Medium range is a whole can of worm from people can’t lead their aim to bullet and damage falloff to “i no has scope to see more than three pixels”

[celest kraken]

bro, how fucking strong of a flat damage reduction are you fucking thinking of? -30?

[paper vector]

Why would it not strongly impact at close ranges?

[celest kraken]

you seem to think only in extremes "either it turns smgs into nerf guns or it does nothing. there is no inbetween possible"

[paper vector]

Any, I don’t think the value makes a difference. I was thinking like 4 or something though.

[inner monolith]

This is the best call man. Some people just show up to oppose any suggestions they don't like even when a big group of people are in favor of it. Then they keep filling up the convo with pointless back and forths until the thread gets locked like it happened with the Spawning Mechanics one. And that's how they win at shutting down the suggestions.

[opal pecan]

what was the armor rework about?

[paper vector]

Applying a flat damage reduction to bullets to make heavier armours more viable

[celest kraken]

turn armor into a flat damage reduction that doesnt disapear after the first fight you end up in

[paper vector]

Which for the most part is a bit of a nerf to SMGs in comparison to other weapons, against support players

[opal pecan]

not sure what to think about it… and how would it apply to helmet?

[paper vector]

I don’t think it’d need any specific rules for helmets

[weary garden]

Are we talking flat % or - Dr

[opal pecan]

Idk what to think about it, famas will go to drains if that’s the case

[paper vector]

Flat number subtracted from incoming damage

I personally would prefer %

[opal pecan]

Famas has a crappy 24 damage per shot

[weary garden]

Yeesh, I don't think ak15 needs another buff rn

[paper vector]

Right now support with EXO is rather unpopular so it wouldn’t be a major issue, but I expect it would become a significant factor in gun balancing quickly enough if it were buffed

[opal pecan]

make it magic armor that self repairs after X seconds not engaging enemy

[celest kraken]

tell me about it man. show up, break rules, get thread locked when people get mad at you for not being constructive and breaking rules

[opal pecan]

Payday2 armor works like that

[inner monolith]

I thought about this approach too but it would feel a bit unrealistic. Curious about what other people think tho.

[paper vector]

Hmm… unrealistic but could be balanced

[opal pecan]

Realistic is of least concern since no IRL body armor act like an hp bar in first place

[celest kraken]

it would result in most guns requiring 1+ extra shot before damage falloff kicks in... which is actually worse than current armor is

[opal pecan]

They don’t just break after three bullets

[paper vector]

It’s always a concern. The presence of unrealistic aspects doesn’t just throw its significance out the window.

[opal pecan]

idk, then I would lean towards the always flat dmg reduction proposal but somewhere deep in me says it’s a terrible idea

[paper vector]

Healthbars in general are never remotely realistic but many games that try to be realistic have them regardless

[opal pecan]

….

Wait a second

What if body armor treats incoming bullet like they gone through extra distance

[celest kraken]

flat damage reduction would basically exaggerate damage falloff. before falloff kicks in most guns are actually going to perform better. after falloff kicks in guns with weaker falloff or higher damage will start to stand out

[vestal lotus]

Its BS that ranger armor is unlocked at lvl 75

[inner monolith]

Right, it's closer to flat damage reduction. The problem with regenerating armor is that it would hit ranged combat harder. Say people trading shots across a long distance with anything that doesn't instantly break the armor. With flat DR you're at least chipping away at health, which in turns means you're costing them bandages.

[opal pecan]

So damage falloff now is super important

[celest kraken]

actually kind of an out there idea that im now curious about. i cant recal any game ever modeling it like that

[paper vector]

Interesting

[inner monolith]

Then exo makes support get one-shotted by the M200 more easily. 😂 Agree it's an interesting concept tho.

[opal pecan]

This would also resurrect dmr as they have next to no damage falloff making them good for mid range

At least against heavier armors

[paper vector]

This would make armour useless against snipers and (assuming it isn’t to the point of ridiculousness on SMGs) it would make SMGs like 2-3x more prone to armour than ARs

[celest kraken]

no that checks out. rock paper scissors. support beats medic smg crackheads, sniper beats support, medic smg crackheads beat sniper

[opal pecan]

Depending on how armor scales

[paper vector]

I assumed a universal effective range increase

[opal pecan]

Flat or mult

[paper vector]

Flat

[opal pecan]

I’m thinking mult (apparently sr will need some tweaks)

[paper vector]

I’m not good enough at thinking about equations to work out how that would go down in my head

[opal pecan]

imagine long range bonus got bugged

If it’s flat it will make vector almost obsolete

It can never deal full damage

[inner monolith]

IMO that's fine. Against snipers you have constructable walls and positioning. The problem is that trying to use the LMG in a reasonable range (50-100m) you're still liable to get sprayed by SMG users.

[paper vector]

Support players being able to survive most sniper headshots is one thing they have going for them. I don’t think that should be removed

[paper vector]

I think if this is perceived as a problem, the best solution is just to make SMG damage dropoff harsher.

Right now the difference is imperceptible below about 75m for most of them

[opal pecan]

Currently only vector got the special treatment

[celest kraken]

again you show how shortsighted you are. if it is the one thing they have going for them then that is the problem of them being mostly useless. give them more options elsewhere and losing the "one thing they have going for them" becomes less significant

[opal pecan]

I believe it’s mostly due to the overall map design having a lot of close quarters while noone really enjoys big open field with little features

[inner monolith]

Problem is that hits them across the board including in reasonable situations. E.g. a flanker trying to spray a sniper up on some structure. If you nerf the damage, that goes away. But if you make it armor dependent, it can still work against them.

[celest kraken]

anyways, im already fodder for snipers even with headshot survival. too slow

[paper vector]

It’s not the one thing they have, it’s just one thing. I did not intend to imply that.

[celest kraken]

mb, i misread. i still dont think "surviving sniper headshots" is a viable niche for support. they still get chewed up with bodyshots because of how slow they are

[paper vector]

Everyone wants to be able to compete in all environments because changing your loadouts constantly is a pain

[celest kraken]

i do it all the time

[celest kraken]

then if we have preset loadouts we can make then this becomes less of an issue

[paper vector]

It isn’t a niche, it’s a helpful bonus. The thing is with support, they’re intended to do well as slow moving heavy fire support. If it’s taken for granted that you won’t be moving a lot, being more sniper resistant is useful.

[celest kraken]

but they are NOT more sniper resistant dude. that is the point

[inner monolith]

It would be nice to have a resupply box in capture points. Full stop. In addition, they could allow you to change loadout/class so you're not forced to respawn when situations change.

[celest kraken]

they are sniper fodder because they dont move much and when they do move they are stupid slow

[celest kraken]

i brought it up before, yea. if points had spots to repair and rearm vehicles and heal and rearm for infantry they would be something players would actually want to defend

[paper vector]

Armour reduces sniper damage

[paper vector]

That they move less than other classes can be taken for granted. That is why they’re supposed to have heavy armour

[celest kraken]

dude, you need to start considering the impact of multiple things instead of just focusing on damage. it doesnt fucking matter that armor reduces damage when you are so slow that the snipers dont even need to lead

movement speed

[paper vector]

That is considered, that’s the point

[celest kraken]

want, werent you the same dude who said movement speed survivability was on par with the additional survivability of armor?

[paper vector]

Yeah

It feels like it is

The issue is it’s purely bad when it’s used up.

[inner monolith]

Don't think I have yet unlocked the armor that will let me survive someone's full auto clip. Wildly swinging my mouse around until they run out of bullets has worked before tho.

Which obviously only works when you can move fast.

[paper vector]

To me it feels rare that people are ever able to dodge bullets without sacrificing their ability to shoot and dying anyway

So I think movement speed penalties aren’t as big a loss as most people

[opal pecan]

I stand by my idea: make it a damage distance multiplier (and doesn’t wear out), hitmarker color apply blue when your damage got reduced so bad that its passed min damage distance (and gradually more white when your shots are near full damage)

[inner monolith]

Even if that happens, you're making someone have to use way more bullets to kill you than would be necessary with armor.

[paper vector]

Don’t have to survive a whole clip. Have to survive long enough to kill them

[paper vector]

Depends if you decide to dump a mag into them or not while they’re evading

[high gate]

armor is worthless compared to speed. even when it's not used up, it covers very little of your model. unlike the exo helmet, it will hardly ever be useful
and in return, you can't even cross a street without possibly getting killed outright. any other class doesn't die instantly when spotted in the open, even if they're tagged they can run off, lick their wounds, and re-engage. support can't, which encourages a very passive and defensive playstyle, which 1) is boring as fuck and 2) is heavily discouraged by how spawning mechanics work

[paper vector]

According to a survey I did, people believe themselves to hit armoured areas with 72.2% of their shots. So it seems like a large area if people can be trusted.

[celest kraken]

personally, i wouldnt mind a passive and defensive playstyle if it were better. the problem is support just isnt good enough at it and any suggestion to make support better just gets shot down with people saying "i dont want to get hard countered because my opponent wore armor" ignoring the fact that not wearing armor makes you literally able to dodge entire magazines of bullets

[paper vector]

Still… I have no issue with using support offensively. Having a longer lifespan while in the middle of a gunfight gives you potential to kill more people - if the situation is fast paced enough that you otherwise wouldn’t have time to heal.

[celest kraken]

i have seen people do the jump and spin at max sensitivity dance and dodge entire magazines of bullets for 3-4 seconds, and it isnt like people are wildly missing. the shots are passing right through the point the dude is spinning around but their model is just rotating around a point so fast that most of them miss

you literally CAN NOT do this with armor

[opal pecan]

Playing support against medic is like playing medic against little bird

[paper vector]

It’s a lot less effective with something like exo armour for sure
I don’t think it’s a serious issue to begin with though? When people do the rapid spinny thing it usually doesn’t save them, because they can’t shoot while doing it. Unless you’re in hip fire range, but in that case personally it seems as though it becomes easier to hit them than it is for them to hit you (their movements must be quite random so they can’t really focus on you)

[celest kraken]

speed means you have a greater power to choose your fights and the ability to fucking dodge bullets when you choose poorly and to cross dangerous sightlines significantly faster than other slower armored individuals.

what most of us seem to be suggesting is implement a change to force speed demons to actually need to make choices on what fights they pick instead of sprinting around randomly at mach 10

[sweet sinew]

Speed is better than armor currently for mitigating damage

[paper vector]

There are people with very good movement who aren’t just spinning who are much more dangerous to me, so I’d see that as a more valid point

[opal pecan]

It’s just hard to lose when enemy isn’t looking at you when you engage and speed provides that

[sweet sinew]

It feels like the hit-reg can get a little janky once players start hitting very high speeds or complex air jumping

[opal pecan]

Id argue that even if you give exo double the hp smg still comes out on top

[paper vector]

Speed allows you to get there to begin with faster, doesn’t make a difference to what direction they’re facing

[paper vector]

Will have to hard disagree on that point.

[sweet sinew]

As I've called for previously, it would be nice if armor was implemented properly and mitigated damage based on armor penetration

[celest kraken]

like dude, im not trying to be rude but if you think speed doesnt save you from more deaths and damage than armor does then you need to play the game more and pay attention when you do.

go play sniper and see who you have an easier time to get kills on
go play support and experience cringing anytime you see a doorway that an enemy is covering that you need to sprint across
go play medic and dodge bullets by just jumping and spinning

everyone else is saying the same thing. armor needs a buff because it is worthless compared to being naked

[inner monolith]

Speed aside, this is still a problem. You can be contested even at range due to the superior handling of SMGs. Makes it really hard to try and hold some area with your LMG.

(let's not get sidetracked since speed is a separate issue IMO)

[celest kraken]

seriously, they should do that for a test. make it so support can choose to have no armor. watch as the class actually performs significantly better. im willing to bet it will

[paper vector]

I play a decent range of playstyles. I can do similarly well as any class that I play, so I don’t think the issue is major to begin with

[sweet sinew]

You can select no armor already can't you?

[celest kraken]

only exo and heavy i thought

[sweet sinew]

The downside is most of the weapons have a move speed of 0.90 or worse

[celest kraken]

oh wait, normal too

[paper vector]

You can go medium on support

[sweet sinew]

Ah ok, yea I thought you could ditch heavy armor

[paper vector]

The LSWs are 0.95, which is the same as some ARs

[opal pecan]

All support guns have smaller than 1 speed, no?

[celest kraken]

yea

[sweet sinew]

Oui, but I agree with this on principle that they're big and heavy, so it makes sense

[celest kraken]

contrast with smgs which have like 1.10

[sweet sinew]

Also running around with medium armor but an exo helmet looks hilarious and is 100% meta

[opal pecan]

short mag FAL has 1.15

[paper vector]

Yeah. Not sure how big a difference it is though, can’t remember who got the numbers on it

[celest kraken]

bruh what the fuck

hold up, im going to try that

[sweet sinew]

It's quite the difference, one of the reasons medics are currently ninjas

And streamer-shitter bait

[paper vector]

In practise it is how you’d imagine 1.11 to be.

From how the speed calculations work

Actually no, 1.03 I think

[sweet sinew]

As a side note, you can pull out your pistol and be fast as support

[opal pecan]

how does it work?

[paper vector]

It’s janky

[paper vector]

The differences that weapon attachments add to your actual movement speed is 20% of what is stated

I’m not sure how much the guns themselves are worth though

[sweet sinew]

It's the whole weapons platform so 20% of the penalty shown

So, not that much

[opal pecan]

I want to be fastest boi in town

[sweet sinew]

Armor is the bigger contributing factor

Play PDW medic then and naruto-run

I'd love to see support become the natural enemy of smg medics, if smg medic never gets removed.

Looking at a 70% damage reduction from pistol caliber weapons if you're wearing Exo (as long as you get hit in armor, that is)

Maybe 50% for something like a P90 because meme calibre

[flat sedge]

will say the LSWs are not outright worse

but that reload time on the L86 is a something else moment

[flat sedge]

(thinks of a suggestion I had where you could construct various rearm/repair/healing stations ONLY on capture points and they could refill your entire kit)

[gilded canopy]

YES

[flat sedge]

things discussed in the #1120273018543951912 that relates

1. Slow but game incentives speed/aggression in taking points
2. Legs & arms do not get any protection from armor
3. Exo is just bad (Hidden debuffs on top of the large displayed debuffs)
4. Trophy system is competing with the ammo boxes
5. Bipod is a headshot me sign
6. Trophy system destroies both friendly & enemy grenades, grenades' damage apperently go through wall
7. Durability advantage lasts for 1-2 fights at most before being gone permantly for that life while still debuffing you
8. suppression requires roughly 30 seconds of fire to effect by sounds

[celest kraken]

30 fucking seconds? Jesus christ

[opal pecan]

it needs to take effect in under 3 seconds

[paper vector]

hidden debuffs?

what are those

[flat sedge]

said afew before in suppressions but control & bandage speed are two that I know

off hand

[livid carbon]

and even when suppression kicks in, it's a fucking joke "vignette tunnels your vision"-my ass, it is such a badly implemented feature rn, gib squad-esque deppression

[sweet sinew]

It's implemented right now?

[flat sedge]

no clue

I assume no

[opal pecan]

Oh so it’s not my imagination wearing hvy outperform exo

[sweet sinew]

I don't see any kind of surpression mechanism

[opal pecan]

[flat sedge]

o wrong thread

[weary garden]

Yeah movement translates to action speed I believe

That includes mantling and more

[flat sedge]

Lovable

[weary garden]

I don't think bandage is true though

[flat sedge]

Suppose a easy way to check

give me a second or two

going to be inflicting fall damage on myself

[weary garden]

If you can prove the diff between normal and exo in bandaging and anything else I can bring it up with oki

[livid carbon]

ye, you move slower on a percentage base so the class that should excel with suppressing and withstanding it gets fucked more than everyone else, it also gives you a stronger vignette

[sweet sinew]

No I mean the vinigete around your screen when rounds zip by

Pretty sure that's not in yet

[livid carbon]

it is

[weary garden]

It is

[dry bobcat]

It's very rare to see

[sweet sinew]

Then it's functionally not implemented

[dry bobcat]

also correct

[livid carbon]

ass-ault shield gameplay can prove, aswell as being in cover and getting shot at or running to your next coverpoint as a support and getting handicapped the most out of every class

[paper vector]

You see it like every game wdym

[dry bobcat]

You see a slight, barely noticeable effect that does not have any impact on gameplay or behavior

[livid carbon]

it does effectivly nothing unless you are a support and some random starts spraying at you, in that case you go even slower, effectivly light armor walk speed, did i forget to mention movement is to op rn?

[patent timber]

Play with assault shield and you will see the suppress effect when pushing 1 way choke point

[flat sedge]

had heavy with exo helmet on first test

[patent timber]

Sometime it make the screen near black but it rarely happen

[flat sedge]

full exo on second

Seemed to make some differences

[weary garden]

2.5% jump is kinda small

[patent timber]

It just take too long to reach that point

[weary garden]

You should see the biggest one between normal and exo

[livid carbon]

weapon handling is already so bad why stack debuffs on top of that in the form of imo the only armor that makes this class itself, for everything else you could just use assault class balance is not very based rn 🥲

[flat sedge]

decided to do a normal normal

did make a good difference compared to full exo by looks

only changes between the tests was armor

[weary garden]

Use a timer and post em?

Just like

Be sure

Bc looks could be just in your head, no offence

[flat sedge]

Fair enough and none took

give me a sec

so posting to YT

[dusty plinth]

To this day the only non-mil-sim title that seems to do classes right is BF2.

[calm swallow]

Fix bipod

[zenith carbon]

THIRTY SECONDS????

Can the lmgs in this game even breach 15

[flat sedge]

to my knowledge the ultri is 10 seconds of sustained fire

(slowest RoF at best magazine size)

[zenith carbon]

Well shit

Honestly support deserves to get like an armor refill box imo

[woven fossil]

Support gadgets are very clunky.

If you wanna defend a sight to your maximum potential use 4 claymores, 4 trophies, respawn and 4 mines.

[opal pecan]

Claymore and mine share the same cap so that doesn’t work at all

[royal hare]

some unique cover options for prone LMG would be nice with the bipod

[flat sedge]

so like a sandbag with 1-3 bags missing near the center to allow a good LOS for the MG?

[royal hare]

yeah something along those lines would be nice

[grave rivet]

I would love to see more buildables for support for sure.

[patent timber]

you can experience the suppress by using shield assault on 1 way choke point of namak or metro

[placid whale]

that is if you last thirty seconds

[woven fossil]

No they don't. They each let you use 4

[inner monolith]

Ok, but can we agree that 4 is silly low nonetheless?

Specially when the alternative is C4.

[woven fossil]

Yeah it should be much higher.

I say 15

[paper vector]

I don’t know why you should ever need more than ~4

Unless your whole playstyle was just spamming them (and I heavily disagree with the game allowing a playstyle like that)

[inner monolith]

Pretty sure most buildings have more than 4 ways to get inside them.

Allowing people to set down an unlimited amount that persist through respawns is silly, but 4 is close to useless.

You might get one or two people coming up the stairs and next thing you know, C4 and rockets start raining on you and tearing down the whole place.

[paper vector]

I don’t think the point of claymores is just to lock down a location, they kinda just slow people down

Basically any rooms are going to have less than 4 entrances

[inner monolith]

Yes, which only works if they know they can expect to find more mines. With 4, you either cover some entrances for the building you're in, only one of which will catch someone, or you have to hold on to them and replace them as people trigger them.

Either way, once someone sees/triggers a mine, they can be sure there is either someone standing on the other side or there will be some clear path towards that person.

Couple that with the widespread availability of C4, and people can just straight up open new ways and simultaneously clear out anything caught in the explosion.

[high gate]

being limited to 4 claymores/mines at any given time makes you more mindful about where you place them. you can't just spam them everywhere, you have to prioritize locations the enemies are most likely to go through, and punishes you for placing them in bad spots

it was a great solution to the claymore spam that also made placing them more engaging since you actually have to think about where to place them instead of just putting them down everywhere without a second thought

[zenith carbon]

wait, was it not already limited to 4 at a time?

[inner monolith]

No, it doesn't punish you. It just does nothing. Which would be the same if you had more and put them in stupid places where people just destroy them anyway.

[high gate]

it kinda does
say you have a mine in a good spot, a bad spot, a good spot, and another good spot
if you try to place a new one, it'll destroy the oldest mine which was in a good spot, rather than the mine that was useless

you get punished by having badly placed mines in your rotation, and have to clear them out eventually if you want to make the most of your mines

[celest kraken]

Im just going to say it.

there is a reason militaries use minefields. The whole point is area denial and delay. Singular claymores dont do this. Where claymore spam used to force playes to slow down and move cautiously through an area the current limit means you can just casually sprint through and avoid or jump over every mine.

people dont use claymores or mines anymore. It is all c4 now because mines and claymores cant actually perform the job of area denial

A single mine in a bush doesnt fucking do anything useful. Sure, i may get a kill every now and then but it cant actually slow enemies down meaningfully brcause everyone knows there will only be like 5 mines spread out across an area. Either they are places pathetically thinly and your chances of hitting one are low or they are placed densly at which point you can just casually walk 10m to the left or right and go around them

[woven fossil]

Because 4 doesn't do anything

Support could and arguably should be about area denial.

Set up a personal mine field and cover it with machine gun fire.

[paper vector]

that doesn't really make sense as a concept with the player density and shifting front lines of this game

[celest kraken]

Dude, you regularly get consequences and causes backwards.

frontlines shift so much because there is no area denial. Frontlines were a lot more stable and long lasting back when claymore spam was a thing

[paper vector]

My experience disagrees with that.

claymores were pretty much everywhere, frontlines shifted too quickly for them to form any kind of divide

you'd spend most of the time in claymore infested areas regardless, they weren't really something you had to keep your distance from

what they did do was making navigating around lonovo train tracks a pain.

I have never thought that their previous abundance made the game more enjoyable in any way

[opal pecan]

Oh no people don’t stop at all anymore, especially party when they can just res with medic in 3 seconds occasionally it’s no longer a relevant impeding factor

[opal pecan]

Ngl it can go either way and I’m more afraid devs got drawn into survivorship bias (or ranter get what they want bias) where they listened to a smaller subset while ignoring the larger population that were satisfied

[celest kraken]

My issue with the previous abundance was it was too easy with no investment. Just place 20 claymores, respawn, then place another 20.

it actually was fun when it was something like your squad calling down a resuply and setting up a minefield real fast. That cost squad points and required some coordination

I worked with a squad once to cover an entire point in over 100 claymores. That was fun and effective. That took time and coordination and reliably deterred attackers and stalled zergs long enough that our team could respond.

The real issue imo just comes back to how cheap lives are in battlebit. Even with tickets its often better to jusr give up and respawn with a full kit

Imagine, hypothetically, that nobody spawned with mines and we can only get them from a supply drop or the resuply crate at base but we could place as many as we want. Making a minefield would take effort and coordination but could seriously change the shape of the battlefield

[paper vector]

but they wouldn't be fun

RNG-based weapons like that never are

I would say claymores and even grenades grenades should be removed from the game altogether if it wasn't neccesary to stop camping being meta

a claymore kill is an enemy skill issue rather than a personal skill

[livid carbon]

where's camping meta?

[paper vector]

nonexistant because we have grenades

that's the point, if you read it

maybe meta is the wrong word

but it would be viable for KD

[livid carbon]

but where are nades required for that to not work?

or even claymores? they wouldn't effect your "camping-is-viable-meta"

[opal pecan]

It feels more like, people bring c4 for their own convenience over bringing any mine-ish gadget to help with area denial since it has no guarantee to yield results

[weary garden]

Game design wise, current claymores are fine

Any form of death that you do not have a player directly interacting is going to feel bad

[opal pecan]

Getting blown up by a mine doesn’t feel too different from getting sniped from 1km away ngl

Hey uh I just suddenly died

Except mines are tangible and can be cleared

[weary garden]

Yeah, but the sniper at least has scope glint you can hid from

[weary garden]

Now thy can be

Before when you could place 100 this wasn't true

[celest kraken]

Bruh how the fuck are claymores and mines rng you goober. You seriously call everything you dont like rng

[opal pecan]

ACOG can be good up to 800m and doesn’t glint

[celest kraken]

You can see them if you stop sprinting through dense bushes at 100mph

[weary garden]

That's a whole other issue that's being looked into

[livid carbon]

no sniper uses a "long range" scope, you can still fuck people up with a 4x up to 1400m pretty reliably

[weary garden]

Again, it's being addressed

[celest kraken]

As a long range scope user... they are memes. I mostly use it for cheeky shots on the slivers of someone's fingers i see

[weary garden]

Anyways

[opal pecan]

I believe allowed simultaneous gadget needs to be adjusted based on map size (player count and mode)

[weary garden]

Aside from snipers, the idea is every kill you can feel like you've been outplayed

Mines don't do thst

It's just oh one of thirty I already cleared happened to be in hallway number 20

[opal pecan]

claymore I can get around cuz they have a stupid obvious tripwire

Ap mine in a bush

How am I supposed to see that

[livid carbon]

claymore tripwire: 🗿

[weary garden]

Yeah a minefield is fun because it's free kills

[opal pecan]

I recently got a triple kill ap mine in tensa cuz I half buried it in wall

[weary garden]

But it's not really fair

[opal pecan]

Id go as far as saying ap mines are unfair but claymores due to the exposure of tripwire is fair game

[celest kraken]

The reason people dont like mines is because the only reasons you die to them is you play yourself.

you didnt get outplayed, you got unplayed because you were rushing so much and so inattentive that you literally walked right into it

[livid carbon]

that is smth that annoys me tbh, ap mines just clipping 90% into the floor, stairs and god knows what else

[weary garden]

Then you played yourself by exposing your head to a sniper

[opal pecan]

Oh and for some reason claymore tripwire will activate on friendly vehicles

[celest kraken]

yes

[livid carbon]

tldr: we need milsim mode

[opal pecan]

Like seriously wtf

[weary garden]

Both are annoying and don't fit a shooter

[opal pecan]

I once killed myself planting claymore cuz a friendly quad drove by me

I got literally driven by

[livid carbon]

bruh xd

[weary garden]

They're legit fine as is rn

[opal pecan]

I still remember the old days playing cod 6 using OMA to refresh my claymore and c4 and plant them from a tree, claymores get teleported downwards

[livid carbon]

i once died to some random enemy quad that just had to drive through my little swamp bush on river, that was near the b point and i was attacking with teammates to then hide in the bushes while my mates died had enemys walk by me for like 5min, idk where i'm going with this support speed and positioning is just a bit goofy

[opal pecan]

the worst part? You don’t want to talk and ask your teammates to spawn on you cuz god knows if enemy is listening

[woven fossil]

I still think it's a cope. Claymores were the only counter to speed medics. Pay attention

[livid carbon]

people outside your squad can't hear you in squadvoip, but i was in combat the entire time ig, no one spawned on me and i had multiple enemys walking like 1m past me so uhm yeah if that quad didn't turn me into a pancake i'd have lived

[opal pecan]

I’m 90% sure they do cuz enemy found me in the bushes when I was calling out squad mates to spawn on me in squad chat and enemy said to me “yeah that’s your plan?”

[livid carbon]

that's weird

[paper vector]

Because nades clear rooms. Staying still isn’t viable because people will find out where you are and not make the same mistakes the next time

As far as I can tell that’s the main reason for having them

[paper vector]

Because they entirely depend on the enemy running into them

But yeah I don’t like them

I am biased against the existence of explosives in general.

[livid carbon]

c4 is probaly used more often for room clearing in comparision to the magic anti-camp-meta-explosive(s)

[livid carbon]

that doesn't mean they're rng, they are awarness dependent if that makes sense and somewhat skill dependant, on both parts mind you, they would be rng if you were to step on one and it might or might not explode

[paper vector]

Less range and radius, they have partially separate use cases

C4 is mainly different in that it can destroy things, which I guess is a core part of the game

[paper vector]

The other person’s awareness and concentration are RNG because the people avoiding (or not avoiding) your traps will be random people.

RNG from the point of view of the user

Though grenades in particular are often RNG from both points of view

The amount of kills I’ve gotten from random grenade throws in the general direction of the enemy is ridiculous

If they’re thrown at a high angle (and as such have less fuse time upon landing) it often simply isn’t possible to avoid them

[inner monolith]

What you call RNG would be rather easily solved with clearer sound cues. Steps to differentiate armor levels of players moving around, sounds of grenade pins being pulled.

[paper vector]

That’d help

Not quite a solution though

That works in CQC - which is common for gunfights but what we’re discussing is not what happens in the gunfight. You can easily toss a grenade 50 meters, nobody would be able to hear you pull the pin or have any feedback that the grenade existed until it landed by their feet

[inner monolith]

Explosives do have a bit too much throw distance imo

[celest kraken]

Serious question. Do you think fog of war adds rng to strategy games?

Fundamentally, you see to have an issue with not being able to know everything on the battlefield rather than any mechanic truley being random

[paper vector]

Hmm. Good question

I guess so?
However in strategy games that has never bothered me. Not that I play many of them.
My aversion to this sort of thing in a game like battlebit does not carry over. To me these are not comparable.

[inner monolith]

To be fair you can in fact model epistemological uncertainty using probability

That said, you can average over that uncertainty to take the optimal decision based on the limited information you have available

[celest kraken]

Throwing grenades in a general direction of an enemy and getting kills isnt rng. It would be like if i saw an enemy run into fog of war in a strategy game and then used some sort of aoe attack to target the area i expect him to be in.

i have imperfect knowledge, but i have enough that i can make a reasonable use of an area of effect weapon

[paper vector]

Not knowing everything is fine, it’s when someone gets a kill with no actual effort or risk on their part that I don’t like. Like how I can grenade spam as support on wakistan bridge. I’ll do it because it works but I am morally opposed to the whole idea, as I think it makes it less fun for all involved.

[opal pecan]

What is effort

Something you feel cheap may not be cheap for the other side

[paper vector]

I think the difference here would be the pacing. I view every life in battlebit as a scenario, for a strategy game it would be the whole game. Such an action in a strategy game would likely be a very small part of the overall story, in this game it’s… largely binary

[celest kraken]

Sure, probability is important to consider... but i dont think me losing a fight to a person with heavy armor is an rng issue. Its an information issue. In a strategy game it would be akin to me not scouting and then being attacked by a unit that i didnt counter

[inner monolith]

In that kind of situation you don't usually kill the person outright unless they were low HP from a previous engagement, in which case they should be ready to dodge if they know the skills you have available

[paper vector]

I have no real counterargument to this. An interesting point

[opal pecan]

did you know: it often take me multiple tries to even be able to set up a god damn claymore that doesn’t have its stupid tripwire poking up high in the air

[inner monolith]

Yeah, I completely agree with you on that point. Also because under the proposed flat dmg armor rework, SMGs which are weaker against it still provide a speed advantage and so the user can disengage if unfavorable conditions are found.

[paper vector]

I have some sort of aversion to any kill where you are not on equal footing with the victim. I’m mainly a TABG player and I think that environment is where it comes from, you do not want to be known as a grenade spammer or something there

[inner monolith]

I don't get why claymores have those silly wires tbh, they're already much taller and noticeable than AP mines

[opal pecan]

It’s also not intuitive

You need to angle your bearing just right

It doesn’t have a hologram letting you know where itll look like once placed

[inner monolith]

Oh that would be a nice QoL improvement

[opal pecan]

CoD6 already did it, 11 yrs ago

[paper vector]

You know where the danger area is and the safe area, roughly, in this game. You throw a grenade into danger area. If you haven’t actually scouted it out (you usually wouldn’t) it’s pure luck whether each grenade kills. And you in turn could be killed by no fault of your own because of this.

[celest kraken]

Like, in strategy games you can make reasonable assumptions about enemy unit compositions based on previous fights, terrain, and the length of the game.

"Hey, my enemy is slow. Normally you would expect a scout at 1 minute but he hasnt sent one yet so either he messed his build or he is doing a rush strat. I can expect the rush units to be these ones so i will build counters to them"

or in battlebit... "hey, the terrain is flat and open with little cover. I can expect snipers to be watching this area and for assault rifles to be the dominant weapon at these longer ranges"

[paper vector]

Battlebit doesn’t really have terrain with little cover, aside from maybe one part of wakistan (not bridge)

[opal pecan]

Suddenly a quad blitz through you and spawned 8 people off before you turned around

^off topic

[celest kraken]

Missing the point dude

[paper vector]

I currently believe there is no large scale strategy in this game other than backcapping

So that kind of strategic decision making, I don’t think it exists. Especially as people don’t care about this, they pick their loadouts and run with them

[opal pecan]

so uh, should we assume enemy held points are already littered with mines?

[sweet sinew]

Mines are based and I love them, even if I put them out in the open someone's bound to walk over them, there's very much an art to placement and they do a great job of slowing down certain parts of the game

[opal pecan]

It’s definitely not the case in current conq 127, people go in n out

[inner monolith]

Yes, this is a big point which makes me strongly support a spawn system rework.

[celest kraken]

"You can expect certain weapons and strategies to be more prevelant based on terrain"

"But battlebit doesnt have that sort of terrain"

this is seriously a trend from you dude, this is flimflam and distracts from the points being made and conclusions reached by trying to dismiss other points that dont directly disprove the conclusion

[opal pecan]

Backcapping becomes such staple people start complaining about vehicles camping in spawn killing backcappers

[celest kraken]

I spent an entire match once clearing out backcappers on valley in a btr. It was always dozens and dozens of enemies popping out of the forest and random bushes and buildings and helis dropping them off

[paper vector]

Criticism noted

I just have no idea what to do about that :|

[sweet sinew]

This is the support thread just fyi

[high gate]

if you're putting them in a bush then obviously they're going to do jackshit. you have to be smart with their placement; put them around corners in tight hallways and on stairs. they're almost always a free kill

[paper vector]

I just tend to dismiss things that I don’t think apply to reality

[celest kraken]

I have died like only 2 or 3 times to mines and claymores since the rework. That doesnt work dude, not against players who take their time

[opal pecan]

It also happens constantly in frugis… actually pretty much any map conq 127 end up like that in my experience

[high gate]

it very much does work, ive racked up well over a thousand mine kills since the rework

people aren't going to be checking every single corner

[paper vector]

Does it matter who it works against if it still works?
(This is not intended to be a rhetorical question and for all I know it doesn’t work because I don’t use claymores)

[opal pecan]

I snatch a tank or apc and sit tight in spawn harvesting kills

[celest kraken]

Well, then maybe there are far more medic speed demons than i thought

[paper vector]

Average player skill will get better over time and not dying to the great majority of traps isn’t a very high threshold. Which I suppose works as a counterargument to me not wanting it to be possible to place a lot of them.

But I don’t think it changes the… ethics… of the whole thing.

[celest kraken]

But the only time i died to claymores in buildings was allies setting them off before i could react, me fucking up and accidentally vaulting into one when i meant to jump, and like one time i turned a corner a little to quickly

[paper vector]

People having AP mines directly underneath them has killed me as their bodies obscure them. Often have vaulted onto someone to kill them only to die as I land on them

[opal pecan]

you don’t see bushes big enough to hide the entire claymore all the time and when you do you… you don’t walk into it

[celest kraken]

I did that 😏

Putting claymores, c4, and mines onto people's bodies is incredibly funny and effective

[opal pecan]

Tensa is like the perfect example why ap mine is superior

Small patches of grass everywhere

[inner monolith]

Sounds a bit warcrimy tbh :D

[paper vector]

Needless to say I don’t find it exactly thrilling gameplay

[opal pecan]

Nah just standard protocol

[celest kraken]

It is thrilling. Im playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers

I once got like 6+ kills in a row because nobody warned their teammates that they had c4 planted underneath then

[opal pecan]

Hey ya know they’re role playing perfectly

[celest kraken]

Medic shows up, boom, new medic shows up, boom, two more medics show up, boom, etc

[opal pecan]

Dead people don’t talk

[celest kraken]

Im still disapointed in the medics for not scratching their head at the pile of 6 bodies

[opal pecan]

I know I don’t

My brain is too smooth

[paper vector]

If I die to someone I like to be able to think they “deserved” to kill me. Conversely I kinda feel bad for people who deserved to kill me but didn’t on luck, but I’m not as empathetic as I am selfish.

It’s kind of that mentality I have where I judge kills as deserved or not deserved and get annoyed when reality fails to meet those expectations.

(This is my best attempt to explain my logic for this whole debate… not rational but it’s how the game feels to play and that’s important to me.)

[opal pecan]

Ngl 6 bodies may be due to nade spam something

Not common to have someone doing boobytraps

[celest kraken]

At a random corner that isnt visable to any enemies and nobody has any reason to stack up on?

Like, 6 bodies near a major fight? Totally reasonable. 6 bodies in a stairwell of a random building further back from the action?

[opal pecan]

Most people have smooth brains

[inner monolith]

Speaking of stacks, if they added collision, it would be hilarious watching the bodies literally stack. Could use your dead buddies as impromptu cover.

[celest kraken]

Make bodies never despawn

You have to either flatten them with a tank or mist them with explosives

[inner monolith]

Damn imagine what the waki river would look like by the end of game, just a sea of dead bodies floating about

[paper vector]

Wakistan would be cooler if you had to climb over a mountain of dead bodies to reach the other side. But there would be performance concerns

[inner monolith]

Can't have grenade spam if the pile of bodies is too high to throw grenades over 🧠

[inner monolith]

Oh and speaking of cover what do people think about giving the shield to support as well? Of course it's not super useful right now and could use some buffs, but overall it feels like something that goes along with the class theme of tankiness/defense.

[paper vector]

Sure, why not

It’s not like it’s a defining feature of assault

[inner monolith]

I would love it if it was made deployable, so support can quickly drop some cover during intense firefights where fiddling around with the construction menu is less than ideal.

[paper vector]

Hmm… what with weapon switching speeds being the way they are, I’m dubious that it’d be quicker

[flat sedge]

cod 4 actually

[zenith carbon]

it'd be useful but i can't help laughing at the idea someone's just gonna bring it up every time they need to swap firing positions

[zenith carbon]

Idk if you’ve experienced this too but allies setting off claymore/ap mine chains either on purpose or by accident is more common these days

Feel like i see nonstop ‘one room packed full of mines and the rest of the obj is god damn empty’

[celest kraken]

I have destroyed a few friendly claymores myself. It can be hard to tell at times, particularly at distance. I havent experienced anything i would say is purposeful though, however i cant say i even experience mines and claymores much to even have that chance

Everything is c4 now

[zenith carbon]

Oh purpose as in they see it, they shoot it without knowing, whole chain goes up

Whenever there’s mines they’re always either scattered at the edges of stairs or in completely random places, obviously placed as a joke

[calm swallow]

Fix Bipod

[worn sky]

ultimax is bad

[dry bobcat]

I'm about to put this game on the backburner

[weary garden]

Yea IK

weapon balance and guns still on the table

[weary fog]

where hear this?

[weary garden]

apparently oki has been grappling with support for 3 years now

[weary fog]

lol

well I think if they made grenade explosions not go through walls, fortniting might be more effective

[weary garden]

I am not supposed to be saying these things 😛

stay tuned for more

[dry bobcat]

All he has to do is implement our very good suggestions. Dev skill issue

[opal pecan]

whoa whoa chill dude

[calm swallow]

Meh, it's marginal with the correct attachments. I vaguely remember the struggle for the first 150ish kills

The ultimax is actually fairly accurate at range, though you're limited by optics. Red dot is ok to 150ish meters, 4x is just basically trolling yourself past 50 since the recoil is perceived as high. Slip is almost usable (if bipod was actually a good attachment at reducing horizontal and vertical recoil), but still suffers from the perceived increased recoil like the 4x.

[woven fossil]

I feel like the hitboxes of exo helmets need changing.

I swear theyre actually accurate, so using anything with eyeholes or open mouth is just a downgrade for no reason

[dry bobcat]

Some exo helmets cover the whole face, like one that you can get from the supporter packs.

[gilded canopy]

yup

[grim fog]

Exactly

That's why it's king

[sweet sinew]

Agreed

That and BF2142

[placid whale]

almost misread that as 2042 and was about to shit on you

[meager cypress]

2142 was a gem, it was a bit buggy on release with the new game modes but the attack the mothership map type was awesome

[meager cypress]

I think its worth trying out that lmgs have worse stats, but then the grouping and recoil tightens way up as the burst becomes longer or as the gun "heats up" or whatever

[placid whale]

like the negev from csgo?

[meager cypress]

I dont play csgo, but the inspiration on my end was the ganz from 2142

spread started out real wide then it tightened up as you shot more

in our case it would probably make more sense to just keep track of "heat" and base it on that so that people can burst fire and not screw themselves, at least until more lmgs are in play because you can't just lay on the trigger on the 249 like you can with the ultimax, people not experiencing the mechanic until level 100 would be stupid

[sweet sinew]

Holy balls you have no idea how much I would enjoy a BBR Titan Mode

[meager cypress]

It wouldnt be a lot of work to code but you'd need a lot of helicopters which would probably be a cancer

[sweet sinew]

Idk, something like two aircraft carriers

You'd need mounted weapons which the game currently doesn't have

[meager cypress]

tbh I haven't played a lot of BBR lately, as the community contracted it became a lot less fun and BG3 came out, ive mostly been playing that and coding my own stuff

[sweet sinew]

And mesh an entire aircraft carrier with enough internal space to make it interesting

Would play that a hell of a lot though

[meager cypress]

they already have the busted boat meshed, just make it less busted and you're half way there

the automated air defenses firing at the titans would be the only thing I can think of that isn't in the existing scope of the game

need the russian titan to be spewing coal clouds so its like constantly shrouded lol

[sweet sinew]

Just make them SCUD launch sites, proper stuff

Making an animating a missile to hit the carrier would be harder

[calm swallow]

Fix bipod

[livid carbon]

fix bipod

[dusty plinth]

Fix Bipod.

[meager cypress]

maybe the bipod should be the thing that sets the lmg so that it pulls in tighter as you shoot more, current lmg stands unchanged, bipod lmg gets a suppressive-fire ish buff

[opal pecan]

Deploying bipod means you’re a sitting duck in snipers’ scope

Besides, leaning from corners already put the side in defensive in severe disadvantage (forgot which video that talked about “real” reaction time and passive aim), bipod means enemy gets perfect passive aim against you

[meager cypress]

so dont use one after the change, you aren't going to make supports face tanky enough to eat that many shots

[calm swallow]

Yep. That’s part of using a bipod. Part of the risk you assume when using one.

[gilded canopy]

YES PLEASE

that would be awesome

[opal pecan]

and you’re getting next to 0 return taking such risk

[meager cypress]

I'm confident i'll be fine

[meager cypress]

so dont use one, you'll be fine

Idk what you want, a fucking force field as a reward for using a bipod? lol

[opal pecan]

Idk what YOU want, it used to reduce recoil significantly but got nerfed for no good reason

Not sure how you can suddenly become Jedi

[meager cypress]

😂

[royal hare]

ngl i saw the vid pre nerf and it was ASVAL lvls of nutty

[weary garden]

Exo armor was added bc people did indeed want a forcefield while using bipod

[gilded canopy]

exo armor imo its alright if the bipod worked like intended

kinda wish that it wasnt the default armor

[snow python]

I use the lightest armour I can while playing support, unless I'm in a squad that is actually being led... anywhere useful

[opal pecan]

just wear all normal and wield a m249

Fast supply > dead supply

[snow python]

I've been trying to make the MG work... but I'm probably going back to the M249

[opal pecan]

Mg36 is kinda just worse groza

[snow python]

Yep, a lot of our weapons make me sad in the pants...

[gilded canopy]

Try using light everything with exo helmet, gives a nice boost to your durability as people try always to go on headshot

[grave rivet]

MG36 is honestly better without the drum mag but why do I have to sacrifice ammo to just use the gun. When the m249 is better. The drum on the MG should be 100

[snow python]

You know what... I never thought of that.

[snow python]

MG36 needs something... probably ammo, but definitely some actual fucking accuracy.

[grave rivet]

If you use heavy you still get the befits of two shots ext ra to the body and plus you get extra mags. So I run heavy with exo with maps with a lot of cover and little cover I use normal body armor.

[gilded dock]

Late to the party but why in a game primarily about speed is the support a fat paraplegic?

[gilded canopy]

It works awesome, you trade a lil bit of speed but in exchange you have like a 40% probability to stop a 4 shot headshot

[snow python]

Because Squad play sucks

[spice berry]

After playing support with the lightest armor/backpack/helmet options available to the class, I can say that with that equipment the class feels perfectly fine.
It really seems to be as you increase the armor and get slower the class just feels worse and more out of place for this type of game. You give up way too much run speed, and aim speed, for that extra armor that isn't worth it.

[inner monolith]

Yes - key point, tradeoff is not balanced. I would be happy play a chonky dude if the protection I get was commensurate to the speed lost.

[inner monolith]

Then let's fully lean into it and make Exo helmet work like this

Deployable bulletproof neck gills for full body cover while prone

[meager cypress]

you already have that between shoulderpads and helmet

[weary garden]

except then there's your arms

[meager cypress]

oh your arms are pretty big and chunky, thats true

[inner monolith]

One more thing on that point: if sidearms get a balance pass together with the proposed armor rework, there is even less of an argument for calling any encounter random. An SMG user can choose to carry something like the DEagle if they come across a heavily armored enemy and DMR users can take the Glock if they need to deal with a fast unarmored enemy. Or they can lean fully into countering one specific loadout, but then this becomes a matter of planning and reacting to the situations at hand.

[opal pecan]

Exo should be practically exo: the armor coverage should include all limbs

[meager cypress]

imo first pass should be just turning exo into a hp boost or damage reduction, keeping it the same strength and not letting the helmet get blown off, and see how much better support gets when their armor isn't immediately removed by fire forever. if the numbers dont jive up, then consider updating it.
the only other thing is maaaybe the super long self bandage is a bit excessive in the current gamestate

[gilded canopy]

Smg's should be nerfed to the ground in mid-long distance idk why people think its ok to have a groza or a vector lazer you dead at 150mts

[livid carbon]

vector no longer does that and even if overtuned, the groza is not very effective on 150m, especially because after 50m it loses it's 3 shot kill

[paper vector]

Having low velocity makes shooting at a distance quite a bit worse anyway

[patent timber]

I wonder how many of those people claim gun op at 150m or 200m actually shot at that range

They should try moving targets that are available at shooting range and see

[celest kraken]

Kentucky balistics did a vid recently of various guns fired at a pretty chuncky ballistic shield.

imo, exo should somewhat match that (of course weaker considering it still needs to be something you can wear and move in). Great protection against weaker and slower projectiles and even decent against slow and fat projectiles (but probably broken bones could be expected) but once you get faster bullets the armor starts to falter

So... pretty much the point of why battle rifles and dmrs exist

Like, it is pretty self evident if you know a bit about armor. Generally, speed is what defeats armor. Imo, it makes no sense that armor just acts as an extra health pool

[gilded canopy]

Videogames exist to be fun, not to be a simulator, if you have to ask yourself why something isnt implemented in some way in a videogame, most of the time the awnser is "its not fun"

I do thing that your idea its kinda good tho and could be fun :)

[celest kraken]

damage is usually about energy transfer and armor penetration is more a question of velocity.

modeling armor as an extra health pool just means there is no difference in performance for weapons vs armor. Just use the best dps weapon that you can effectively control.

If gun performance vs armored individuals instead correlates with velocity then we can eek out a niche for dmrs, nerf smgs and other close range weapons, and buff support all at the same time

So, its closer to a simulator but it also gives an additional lever to use to control balance

[gilded canopy]

Yeah, i get where u are going and i like the idea, really think it would help with balance and in this particular game where TTK is so high, armor being a health pool that cant be recharged really doesnt work that much

Kinda think we are asking the devs to remake the armor system almost from scratch and dont think they would like to do that lol xD

[opal pecan]

#1138399550210576466 message

I kinda believe the game somehow framed penetration as l vehicle damage for whatever reason

[celest kraken]

Yea, the more i think about it your idea seems really interesting

[opal pecan]

Judging from p90’s stat

But it has a funnily low muzzle

It’s about half of irl

[celest kraken]

I saw a vid of a relatively new caliber slicing right through 3-4 meters of ballistic gel while subsonic

spin rate of bullets can actually do some funky stuff with penetration

Yea, the thing sliced through 3 seperate blocks and then they conpared it with the awp that stopped after only a single block

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxIBiY1iV0EhBjW2r738Lc9DXVgdIymjwA?si=aLMoBP8RIVjaO5ea

[meager cypress]

it feels like 150m but battlebits measurement to distance is weird, the men are not 2m tall, so when you think its 150m away its probably like 50-75, well within smg death range

[inner monolith]

Exactly. With markedly different levels of armor effectiveness, you can have e.g. three "best DPS" weapons for unarmored, intermediate and heavily armored targets.

[calm swallow]

fix bipod

[flat sedge]

Some people find fun in various ways, simulators is one such way

[celest kraken]

Remember, when someone makes the realism vs fun distinction remind then that arcades and arcade games were designed to steal your quarters 😛

Jokes aside, the distinctions between simulator and arcade is rather arbitrary. Hiw many simulator-esque mechanics does it take to turn an arcade game into a simulator? Doesnt matter imo. What matters is the following questions:

"was is the gameplay loop?"
"Is the gameplay loop fun?"
"Would x mechanic help improve the gameplay"

I think, for battlebit, there is definitely an element of "im picking the right tool for the right job" to the game. It often feels good to switch loadouts based on a changing situation. Better modeled armor could help expand on this by allowing different guns to specialize against it and allowing you to soecialize against different guns

[flat sedge]

I shall state this

there is a reason most of human kind uses scales for these

AKA like how you have introvert > Ambi > Extrovert (And omnivert)

But to sum up I believe a simulator is a mix of tone & such

[gilded canopy]

About the loadout, it really needs to be something like in the new battlefields where you can save 4 loadouts per class

It would be a life changing QoL

[flat sedge]

and even than that could be argued against (look at a certain Arma dlc involving aliens if I recall right)

[flat sedge]

AGREED!

[paper vector]

support has the best drip fr

[meager cypress]

I really dont like some of these new skins

they're they same if you're on one team or the other so you can't use camo to determine who to shoot at =/

[opal pecan]

Yeah I’m finding camo can confuse people - very often

I’ve seen enemy walk right past me when I was reloading my fat m249 I was like, fr?

[calm swallow]

support should get more exo armor skins

[celest kraken]

The devs really need to play planetside.

seriously, its giraffe camo all over again

[shell hound]

Pink camo is the new one.

[celest kraken]

When did that come out? Last i played was around when contructing bases was first added

[shell hound]

4 or 5 years ago I think?

[celest kraken]

I wasnt around at that time then

[gilded canopy]

Give support the DMR's PLEASEEEE

[vestal lotus]

Support should not be able to take any damage from smg medics!!!!

Its just unfair that these sweaty players zoom around at the speed of light, i work 9 jobs and have 17 children and 3 wives. Im a dad and i just dont have the time anymore.

Support should be able to tank at least one full mag of any weapon before the armor breaks!! Support is just super underpowered otherwise, how can i be expected to ADS and shoot at someone that wasnt already directly in my crosshairs? Its just fucking bullshit

Nerf medic and nerf smgs!

[opal pecan]

That already sounds like a different game

[gilded canopy]

Hey im fr with this

Assault already kinda works like that and feels perfect, why not give it to support too and expand their gun choises for free?

Snipers are going to get free ammo anyways with supply drops like they already do

Using DMR's for support goes with the actual role of the class, being behind and engaging mid range

[shell hound]

And it's not like a Support w/ DMR is going to magically survive from someone shooting at them anyway.

[celest kraken]

guys, i have come to inform you that the m249 is actually an smg. this discovery was made by my friend playing the game Combat Arms for nostalgia

[thorny zodiac]

Support will never prosper until Oki makes defensive play/playing the objective matter. It's so slow that it will never win in a firefight where they're on equal grounds because ADS is SO fucking slow and they run like a snail.

Suppressive effect is a neccessary evil because the nature of support is to be hunkered down in one spot. In addition to that Support needs to be able to build pre-made fortifications instead of just walls and boxes

imagine smaller versions of those bunkers you see in Wakistan and a wall that's pre-built to be anti-nade

[lethal river]

Might be overreacting a tad bit there, i feel pretty comfy with 20 bandages, headshot protection (except against m200 that's a different issue), sandbag w/hole still does the job nicely even more so with the anti grenade trophy in the game

[calm swallow]

I just want bipod to work properly so I can mow enemies down while posted up on a sandbag wall until I inevitably get sniped

[gilded dock]

Agreed, a posted support should be actually scary to peek

[lethal river]

In the mean time i'm looking forward to beaming enemies at midrange with the ultimax that's gonna be fun

[celest kraken]

what fucking sucks is the recoil from a gun can shift the gun enough that it undeployes because the lefts slip off the sandbag in front of you

[gilded canopy]

Also please make the ammo box work like in BF2

and give support DMR's , we need them badly

[snow python]

What if our suppresive effect took place after 0.5 seconds and our shots gained aimpunch and created small smoke clouds that made visibility worse? Something like that, anything that isn't just removing the ability to see outright, or just do anything.

[clear maple]

Please no rewards for missing 🙏

Make the weapons more accurate and controllable instead of making them inaccurate so they need suppression

Suppressing is cool and all but works best if the target is already in a defilade. That allows your squad to flank or use grenades to kill. In an open field with no cover, your gunner should be having a grand old time giving them 5-7 round bursts

[snow python]

Agreed on that front, if we have to be innacurate, give us suppression, otherwise I don't want to use a fucking "Light Support Gun" as a fucking SMG

[calm swallow]

how about we just fix the bipod and go from there

[celest kraken]

Biggest issue with the bipod is the game attaches the bipod to far back. Irl bipods are often affixed very close to the end of the barrel instead of all the way back where a grip would be (because it is not a goddamn grip)

[gritty sluice]

@celest kraken has earned the Tier III Member role!

[weary garden]

Hahahaha

[celest kraken]

It being attached so close to the player means you need to fucking hump a wall for it to depoly and sometimes even then it wont deploy reliably

Seriously, look at where the bipod is actually supposed to be

If you put it further forwards you will have much greater angles where you can deploy it

Hell, you know what? Maybe the bipod should be its own unique attachement with you still able to put a grip on

[dusty plinth]

That’s way too arcade-like; this game might be a more casual shooter but the mil-sim elements will hit some classes and weapons harder than others, SMG’s need an accuracy nerf across the board.

[calm swallow]

Huh? SMGs shouldn’t be inherently more inaccurate than other weapons. How about we nerf the range?

[dusty plinth]

Because of the caliber-usage and barrel length, SMG's have wider dispersion and higher muzzle rise than Assualt Rifles; that isn't the case in this game.

In fact SMG's have higher minimum and maximum dispersion compared to Assault Rifles -- and their minimum dispersion is generally slightly lower but actually have higher maximum dispersion in addition to higher muzzle climb than LMG's depending on the model.

I'm not sure why games have adopted this trend of SMG's being laser-beams generally posessing the lowest dispersion out of the weapon categories, but that's completely backwards.

[calm swallow]

Muzzle rise is more dependent on the individual gun rather than the entire class. An MP5 has nearly no recoil in comparison to something like the scorpion in real life. Roller delay moment.

Also projectile design plays a significant role for projectile stabilization. A spitzer design found on most intermediate and rifle rounds is much easier to stabilize and push out to further distances.

[dusty plinth]

That is true, hence why I used the word "generally" as there are exceptions, though it's important to note that specifically if we were to compare the MP5 with say, the M249- the MP5 actually would have higher minimum and maximum dispersion than the M249; this is once again due to Caliber/Ammunition, where rifle calibres typically offers better ballistics than pistol calibres, as well as the increased barrel length, the weight of the unit, and the stability these combined factors offer.

If we were to compare the two in most games however, the end result generally doesn't align here; the M249 would have higher min/max dispersion as well as dispersion increase per-shot.

Once again I'm not sure why this is the case, as these weapon statistics ultimately wouldn't negatively impact SMG's/PDW's at closer ranges -- I keep stating this but I believe games need to start balancing through dispersion, velocity, muzzle climb/drift, calibre ballistics, and how these effect range, penetration, and suppression rather than random combined DPS/BTK/TTK values.

Ultimately this would actually result in better balance because it would better segregate each weapon within their respective categories and use cases.

The MG36 for example having such high muzzle climb which makes very little sense, and call me nickpicky, but I don't believe there was ever a model that fired at 600 RPM, only 750-850 RPM, nor do I recall the 60-round Beta C-Mag ever being offered with the MG36 -- pointless nerfs for no reason.

[celest kraken]

Because most game devs have never shot a gun and 90% of trends in shooters and even other games are based in traditions of the genre... started by other devs who have never shot a gun😏

[weary garden]

Not nerfs for no reason, just devs from countries without access to guns

So everything is based on wikipedia and gun balance in other games

[clear maple]

Making the machine guns accurate is too arcade-like? The M249s max effective range for a point target is 800m. Battlebit has compressed that down to maybe 100.

[celest kraken]

What wikipedia doesnt tell you is that heavier guns generally have less recoil than lighter guns for the same caliber.

seriously, m249 is a goddamn 18lb monster compared to the 8lbs of the m4. You wouldnt be swinging the thing around easy like an smg but the recoil wouldnt be there either

[dusty plinth]

My bad, I thought you were referring to general accuracy of all weapons, but in regards to LMG's I definitely agree.

[celest kraken]

Nearly every game fucks lmgs up by making them just assault rifles with more ammo

[livid carbon]

when the g3 is getting added

[dusty plinth]

This.

On top of that have you noticed game weapon reviewers tend to rank how good/bad LMG's are based on how well they perform like Assualt Rifles?

[celest kraken]

The weight is a downside for moving and snapping to targets (imagine trying to clear a building with a 20lb gun. It will take forever to swing that shit onto a target) but is an upside when it comes to recoil

[dusty plinth]

I feel like these bigger devs have no excuse, because I swear EA/DICE has a whole team that records sounds at the gun range while they're firing weapons.

[celest kraken]

But no game to my knowledge has tried to model guns as having inertia when you swing them around

THAT is where smgs would shine

[livid carbon]

hipfire control, kinda i think eft got smth similar but idk

[dusty plinth]

Most of it isn't Wikipedia accurate, no offense to the devs but it honestly seems like the only research they did was on SMG's/PDW's and then based all weapons around how one would believe the others would compare at face value.

[clear maple]

I've swung around M240s for a while and idk if its that crazy. Like it never really had any risk of whipping me around

[clear maple]

You get used to it. They don't handle like a M4 though obviously

[celest kraken]

Its less that it would whip you around and more that the whole thing would be sluggish vs a lighter gun

[clear maple]

Yeah for sure

It's hard to gameify that weight.

It usually comes down to "make it move slow" which is kind of a death sentence in a game where medics can beyblade around in one spot and dodge rounds lmao

[celest kraken]

Yea

[weary garden]

Yeah I'm looking into it myself to see what balance can be done with awful handling but amazing stats

[weary garden]

My point is more these are people who don't use guns

[dusty plinth]

One can only dream of the perfect scenario where we have military veteran turned game developers hired and funded by Activision or EA to develop a sandbox shooter.

[weary garden]

There's ready or not

And a few indie projects

However when it comes to games like this, you can't add weapon reliability as a stat

[dusty plinth]

That's more of a confined tactical shooter to be honest, still quite amazing though.

[clear maple]

I saw someone ask to run a quadstack mag in a 249 and I said almost the exact same thing. The gun cycles too fast to feed effectively from mags and it jams constantly

[dusty plinth]

It should be possible to balance realism with arcade, BattleBit is both so close yet so far.

[celest kraken]

Another funky thing about basing things off of wikipedia stats and purely on cultural perception of how the gun performs is it often ignores the downsides of weapons in other areas. Maintenance ease, part availability, malfunction risk, ammo availability, performance vs armor, etc... these are all factors guns in games generally dont deal with and so irl guns with real tangible downsides in these areas but with an upside in handling always end up fucked to implement if you try and follow the supposed irl stats but dont consider all those other factors

I have a friend who fucking hates the kriss vector because "in every game i have played that gun is nearly always fucking busted"

i have seen that it consistently has a grouping of two seperate clusters of shots, even when fully auto. Games jusr dont model this stuff

[livid carbon]

is that from one burst of f/a? sry never had any experience with rl firearms

[celest kraken]

This is burst, but even full auto has two clumps but it is much less distinct due to the volume of fire and recoil

[livid carbon]

and that happens why? bullet deviation i'm a little confused and a smoothbrain sry

[celest kraken]

Its because of the vector's funky recoil system. They shift the bolt down to balance out the upwards rise you would normally experience from the bolt moving but then when the bolt moves back forwards it slams up and imparts an upwards jump right before your next shot

[livid carbon]

that's goofy

[celest kraken]

You can see it in some footage sometimes, particularly easy with slowmo. The vector tends to jump up and down as thr mass of the bolt moves

[celest kraken]

Actually man, im now remembering synthetik where your guns could jam and shit. I actually think it could be done in a game but its going to be really hard to pull off well and in a way that isnt extremely aggravating

Synthetik had the benefit of being a completely different genre and a (generally) longer ttk for you and enemies

[weary garden]

Not to mention a game against AI and a system based on rhythmic gun fights

[night pike]

And it's singleplayer

[meager cypress]

the moment you make the kriss realistic is the same moment the people screeching over being killed by rng stop playing XD

[thorny zodiac]

Then how do you reconcile a class whose entire design is about sitting in 1 spot unlike literally every other class in the game?

[clear maple]

Rebuild the class from the ground up to be on par with other classes, instead of a bandaid fix

[thorny zodiac]

so delete support and make a new class?

[clear maple]

No.

And yes at the same time.

[thorny zodiac]

That's basically what you're saying - if you buff the MG they just turn into AR's but better

The entire reason MG's have such low ADS is because it's designed around defensive play. Building up fortifications and defending it

[clear maple]

Support has no clear role. The discussion here has shown that. I've made this point before. @weary garden has even said Oki struggled with support for years

[thorny zodiac]

I mean it does have a clear role, the problem is that the niche support is supposed to fill is not rewarded at all so it's in this no man's land

[weary garden]

hey what's up

o yea Oki pretty much went from OP bipod to gutting support

[thorny zodiac]

It can't stay in 1 spot and autism build because the spawn system ensures any point will get over ran no matter how much defenses it has

and in addition to that defensive play does not get a good amount of kills or exp so it's bad for progression

and it takes 1 SMG medic main to just c4 your fortifications and destroy the building you're in

[weary garden]

I think the approach we're probably going to go with is 1: adding more defensive benefits bc I finally convinced oki that defence is lacking in this game and 2: gun buffs and speed buffs of some kind idk how

[thorny zodiac]

So the best way to play support is go to the frontlines and support people but it's SO SLOW in every way imaginable that it's just painful and not fun

Support should be able to build pre-made structures

and those structures should be damaged by explosives

[clear maple]

That's why the role feels so fuzzily defined. It's like the lines are blurred and it feels like a Heavy Assault at times

[thorny zodiac]

It feels like support was made for an entirely different game. There's just now way you're going to be able to balance MG's without something like mini-bunkers with murder holes

[weary garden]

which is fine, that's the role it's taken in battlefield games

just has to be

you know

done right

[thorny zodiac]

tbh I think the armor system just needs to go

[clear maple]

I won't reiterate the whole thing but I'll link my thoughts again #1138399550210576466 message

[thorny zodiac]

yeah, I agree with the sentiments

[dry bobcat]

buffing suppression effects when fired upon by an lmg would also help the class as it is now, but fixing bipod, and making the guns stronger/more accurate would be an alternate fix. https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1120273018543951912

[weary garden]

on that we can agree

[thorny zodiac]

I think heavy assault is the way to go

unless Oki is going to revamp multiple systems like the respawn system and map design to accommodate more defensive play

I'll see if I can find the picture in the respawn feedback

[clear maple]

I agree, I'd rather it just be entirely cosmetic. It creates too much disparity between classes

And it makes combat immensely frustrating

[thorny zodiac]

It's a feelbad mechanic. Oh look, I shot him 3 times in the chest and my next shot was at his helmet due to recoil

I know I've hit someone with the M110 4 times which grove me insane

[clear maple]

And it's already been discussed, but backpacks too. It's easier to just standardize it than add complexity that creates confusion or frustration. Cosmetic only backpacks would be amazing

Imagine how much easier it'd be to balance that shit as a whole. Reducing gadget spam (engineers 👀) and grenade spam (support 👀)

[thorny zodiac]

Yeah, I think standardization is an issue in this game. just look at the SMG's. Kriss fall off is 10 meters. MP5/MP7/PP19 is still at 50 and the rest is at 30 meters. Shouldn't they all be at 10 meters?

[clear maple]

Absolutely, but the army of smg apologists in the feedback channel for them makes it impossible to come to an agreement

I digress.

Better building, truthfully, is an engineer thing. But that class is so stacked rn that it has to be handed off to some other class

Support sadly gets stuck with it.

Support getting the ability to build gun emplacements, that makes sense

But getting classes to coordinate building a bunker is impossible. So support needs to be able to do it all themself

I think decoupling building from squad points would be a big W for support. And a streamlining of the build menu would be very nice

[thorny zodiac]

Yeah, I think we need more classes with more defined roles imo. for one I think recon should be changed to marksman because there's no recon they're doing that's different from what other classes can do and oki already said they're not making the ping system better

[clear maple]

Oh shit I had an idea.

Give support the ability to run a MMG/HMG as a gadget.

But it can only be fired when placed

[gilded dock]

It's either that or make support like the heavy assault from planetside

Either make defense viable, or make support an offensive class

[thorny zodiac]

That's actually not a bad idea. Portable turrets basically

[clear maple]

It would be weird running 2 machine guns though

[gilded dock]

Give the turret hefty light armor damage and a high vertical angle, and you have an answer for aircraft like the little bird.

[thorny zodiac]

Honestly, this is somewhat related, but I wish you couldn't exit vehicles instantly

It makes the armor damage some weapons have pointless against transport vehicles because people will leave before it explodes or be able to retaliate for their bad choice of running into enemy territory

[gilded dock]

Honestly the armor damage of most weapons is useless against most of the choppers unless you get a very luck burst on the pilot

[clear maple]

I can only imagine the point streaks you could get from plonking down a M2 and ripping apart an enemy zerg

[gilded dock]

They can just rtb and be back in under a minute

[thorny zodiac]

Something needs to be done in order to not let some guy with an MP5 beam you at 100 meters though, the biggest weapon for stationary weapons

It's why no one uses the open-top humvee

you instantly get killed

That's why I think there needs to be pre-made structures and a wall that's designed to shoot through while prone

[gilded dock]

A couple more unique support structures would help encourage people to play support

[royal hare]

do structures built by supp have more hp than normal?

[gilded dock]

Nope

Support has insta build and the big hesco walls

[woven fossil]

I really want a building that is more purpose made for bipod use.

Something to easily allow crouch bipod, or a curved sandbag wall to hold a wider angle

[celest kraken]

oh god yes

i still think adjusting the bipod position would be better but that would be a good addition too

[calm swallow]

fix bipod

[spark musk]

im not saying this is a good idea
im just throwing out an idea that popped in my head

• we nerf squad spawning, and make it so you can only squad spawn on support teammates

• why would you ever think this is a good idea?
  i dunno

• you gonna at least attempt to justify it?
  support is supposed to be a core pillar of the squad, whos job is to act as a resupply beacon and fortify key positions for their squad and the team as a whole right?
  supports ability to instantly build doomsday bunkers take a severe hit to their viability due to the fact its never actually used since you can always just spawn on some frontline medic (in front of your fornite) whos 0.07 seconds away from getting lit up by gunfire
  this (stupid) balance change makes not only support instantly more valuable of a class pick by shifting a core game mechanic to be a class based perk, it also gives a small bump to revive priority queue to the slow class since people would internally juggle the priority of picking back up the 'living spawn beacon'
  this also would naturally nerf the pickrate of medic since it becomes a choice of 'do i want infinite heals, or do i want my squad mates spawning on me'

[weary garden]

This is a further step into slower gameplay that I can appreciate, but I'm not sure it would fit the games pace

[thorny zodiac]

I think it's a bullet Oki has to bite eventually. Current pacing is so fast it makes an entire facet of gameplay, defensive play, obsolete and in addition to that it makes playing the objective absolutely pointless. Current pacing is what you would find in a TDM mode, not objective orientated modes.

That said I don't think making you only able to spawn on support is the right move. I wouldn't mind if a class has a finite spawn beacon, something that can spawn 1-2 people on it though in conjunction with a more limited respawn system but that's really more for the respawn mechanic feedback thread than this one

[vestal lotus]

Defensive play is absolutely not obsolete. Its just that medic is better at it than support.

Medics ads and movement speed make him more attractive to hold a point, because movement is still a huge advantage when youre defending.

[thorny zodiac]

The spawn system literally ensures any defensive point WILL get over-ran regardless of any skill on the defender's part. In addition to that account progress is tied to kills which you get less of as a defender in addition to exp compared to being an attacker. So tell me again, how is defensive play not obsolete?

[vestal lotus]

I agree, perhaps what we need is that every support player can place down a spawn beacon. And you can only spawn on this beacon or the support player, or recon player, but not on medic or assailt

To balance, each squad can only have 1 spawn beacon active at a time of course.

But currently spawn beacons might as well be removed theyre so underutilized

[calm swallow]

lets be real here, they should just fix bipod

[vestal lotus]

Imagine if support was essential for creating a hold in the map to push from. Medics could still play agressive, and support could do exactly what hes good at.
He doesnt have to chase down the medics to give them ammo, the medics all spawn on the support players spawn beacon, and the support player fortifies this foothold and temporary base, he provides ammo, and he provides a good forward spawn

On a map like wakistan this would be a gamechanger, support sets up barriers and spawn beacon in the forest near one of the points, medics can spawn on this fortified point and go push the objective, while support stays behind and defends the squads foothold

This would mean that support players feel valued by the team and feel appreciated. I think this is the most important thing

[thorny zodiac]

I don't like the class based respawn system because you run into a bigger issue where people just play those classes and the rat problem because significantly worse or you end up right back in the same issue

[vestal lotus]

Ok, but at least let support place spawn beacons i think. Would already solve the problem that nobody ever understands theyre a squad leader and need to place a beacon

[thorny zodiac]

It wouldn't work because there's no class limits

You'd just get a half a squad of support spamming respawners in places and the rat issue becomes worse

[vestal lotus]

The problem is also if one support is an idiot and places a really bad beacon

Team is stuck w it

[thorny zodiac]

Being SL should be a question that's asked during pre-game match and if you say yes it gets auto-filled

and if no one wants to be SL it auto-assigns people to be SL

[vestal lotus]

Yeah thats a good idea. It sucks that its so useless right now because it always goes to an ignorant rando

I could do so much good for my team if i could place a beacon, but of course rng rarely makes me squadleader

Also currently with how easy it is to squadhop

And how often people do it

Leaders change constantly

Perhaps the game should default to making people with prestige squadleaders

[snow python]

I think the biggest thing that make defensive play not desirable is the fact that rarely do you have a competent squad leader so you often end up having to point chase. So being a big fat slow dork makes it feel even worse. I run engineer with the lightest kit possible sometimes when I don't want to put any real effort into playing.

Guess what, more squad points that I barely use, more kills, and more fun since I'm getting to fights before the attackers leave. With auto squads our fights break up since people are chasing objectives, and those who aren't just jerk off at the most obnoxious places. I avoid the Wakistan Bridge fights, I will spawn as an assault to create a bunch of climbing points than fight on one of those stupid bridges.

[gilded dock]

Honestly running around to bottom and grappling is a good way to get an easy 5+ kills in one go

[zenith carbon]

Honestly real talk: the rally point is… kinda worthless even without being locked being squad leader

It’s got a massive silhouette, you can destroy it in a single mag (and disable it for less), you still need someone to physically go to that location and place it and you can spawn on that person anyways

[calm swallow]

reminder that this is the support feedback channel

[zenith carbon]

Locking spawning to support teammates is still a radical improvement to the game’s pace imo

Because considering that, the fact supports move at a slower pace and should/will tend towards fortification over movement, this anchors the behavior of squads and blobs

As well as handing supports an advantage that is useful but not particularly amazing because supports themselves are not the most effective assault vehicle

[gilded canopy]

Day 54354 of asking to the devs to give support the DMR's and make the ammo box function like BF2

[zenith carbon]

As opposed to being a position of importance, the squad leader is a gimped position who just gets a nice voice channel and one extra buildable - there’s not much leading going on there

Attaching squad spawning to supports places supports in a more concretely important position, though i’m not particularly enthused for it since it also places lots of pressure on the support

Giving supports the rally point is an idea i’m more in favor of because they’re also better at fortifying and protecting said rally points

Though the building mechanics need quite a bit of reorienting

[celest kraken]

like, what is the role of squad leader in this game. what does it bring to the table as a class

its like discount flavored assault/recon hybrid

[zenith carbon]

Off topic a bit but squad leader could stand to benefit from just being a position that can be passed around instead of a full role

You know, just cut the role and let the squad leader keep their nice voice channel and objective pointing capabilities

[thorny zodiac]

This is why a lot of people propose to make it cost no points and be restricted by a cooldown

[zenith carbon]

I could get behind it if like in insurgency it had like a laser pointer to designate targets for mortars and maybe even airstrikes

[celest kraken]

That would be cool, sl would be the "i want to call in a 'fuck you' on that general direction" class... but i worry that would be hard to balance and would create the totally opposite problem of everyone wanting to be squad lead.

I never played insurgancy so idk how well they handled it. If they did it well then i could get behind it

[zenith carbon]

Insurgency handles it well just by the fact that you can call it in and it’ll act as an immediate area denial tool for a while, but not a total wipe

Buildings aren’t destructible so you can’t just collapse them on other people, so it has much higher potential in that direction

[celest kraken]

Area denial i can get behind. That is something this game does need more of. From the defender's side it can force enemies to take other less ideal slower and more dangerous paths. From the attacker's side it could force defenders to disperse from a fortified position.

imo, a problem it can run into is the number of players. Ground vehicles have this issue with so many players in 127v127. I worry that if it just gets implemented without keeping in mind how increasing numbers of players changes things that it could be spammed way too much in 127v127 matches

[zenith carbon]

Absolutely, it’d need quite a bit of balancing work before it really hits a sweet spot, and even then i think it’d be better as an addition to a general fleet of more defensive/passive additions to the game

[celest kraken]

mhhh, another problem i just thought of is how maps definitely are not designed for it. wakistan bridge meatgrinder would totally get worse with this

[zenith carbon]

Totally, area denial only really works when there are defined lanes of entry and exit that aren’t too restrictive

That was a big part of claymore spam being annoying, just the fact that there’s often no real logic to where they go beyond ‘are they hidden?’ (And a problem that continues now)

[gilded dock]

Make dangerous arty strikes easily visible to really cement the "area denial" thing, say with flares or a mini map icon like how war thunder does it. Allow the option for smoke arty which is less visible.

Make it so you cannot call arty directly on any of the points, and make arty deal friendly fire. Have friendlies recieve a hud warning if theres a strike coming nearby.

[zenith carbon]

The other option of course is just making it all analog, having manual markers and players manning arty and mortars in the background

[gilded dock]

The problem is then you get the whole Battlefield 1 problem, where someone grabs arty and sits there the whole game, firing at nothing. Or, of course, racking up kills, but not actually contributing to point caps, like what happens sometimes with the recon class. Manual arty should be a squad play thing, with coordination, and a quckplay match is not good for that.

[zenith carbon]

I think that’s an extension of battlefield’s general ‘everyone can do everything and playing the objective is lame as fuck’ problem tbf

[gilded dock]

Fair, I just don't ever want to see that mentality come to battlebit

[celest kraken]

sorry, it was there day one 😔

[gilded dock]

Allow me to correct myself then: I don't want it to get worse

[celest kraken]

im not necessarily opposed to people who want to just fuck around and do their own thing but my issue is battlebit has so few tools to allow people to still contribute to their team regardless of how selfish they are playing in the moment.

like, medics healing themselves in battle bit vs how medics heal themselves in planetside 2. in planetside 2 their self-heal ability actually heals surrounding allies too. in battlebit its rare to see a medic throw a kit down despite how many there are

the easiest change would be to make it so medics must throw their own kit down to heal themselves

like shit, imagine if support didnt need to throw their pack down to restore their ammo

[zenith carbon]

honestly it's more equivalent if instead of having a reload button supports had a 'refill the drum' option on their lmgs and it's faster than the fastest reload speed on every other class

[celest kraken]

yea

speaking of, i always feel bad when someone asks for ammo and then i goofily pull out the grenade trophy because i forgot i had it equipped

the grenade trophy is still better in like 99% of games because of how easy it is to restore ammo (lul haha funny automod phrase) but still, i feel bad 😔

[gilded dock]

I swear I saw someone suggest that each class have one gadget that's just, locked into place, and then you get either 1 or 2 slots to choose as necessary. Say, Support gets ammo box and the option for the explosives and nade trophy.

At least nade trophy is getting moved to primary gadget slot next update

[celest kraken]

seen the same suggestion a few times myself

honestly similar to how planetside has the activatable abilities

of course you often have similar sidegrade abilities even in that slot so there is variety there

i said it before, every day we stray closer to planetside

[zenith carbon]

New suggestion thread on how to improve on planetside

[gilded dock]

Planetside is just a top tier game

Except for cone of fire bloom, to heck with that bullcrap

[celest kraken]

but yea, light assault could get different flavors of jetpacks. we could have supports with sidegrades of the ammo box such as "box of grenades"

[gilded dock]

Oh no

The nade spam would be so much worse

Wakistan bridge would make me want to actually kill myself

[celest kraken]

i was referencing darktide with the "box of grenades" which is a throwable

[gilded dock]

Ohhhhhhhh

That would actually be a hilarious throwable option for our local fatboy

[celest kraken]

"fuck you and everyone in a 50m radius"

[gilded dock]

Support gets a lower velocity cluster nade

[zenith carbon]

Support final attack: 1000dmg box

[vestal lotus]

Would make namak literally unplayable lmao

[gilded dock]

Just make them unable to be resupplied

[celest kraken]

i only played on namek a single time. it already is literally unplayable

[gilded dock]

Alternatively, go full warcrime area denial, give support gas grenades

We already have the kamikaze vest

[celest kraken]

i genuinely thought we had gas grenades at launch. i quickly learned otherwise but for a moment i was like "oh, thats cool"

[gilded dock]

I mean, literally all you would have to do is add the barbed wires damage over time ticks to a smoke grenade

At least, I assume barbed wire does damage

I haven't noticed any so far

[celest kraken]

it used to very briefly and then it was removed because of "exploits"

namely medics sitting off in fuck-off-nowhere and healing each other

[gilded dock]

Like, two people on opposite teams?

No, wait, nevermind, I understand what you mean now

That just makes me sad that people would rather do that than actually play the game

[celest kraken]

i dont think that was worth removing the damage for, those sorts of people will probably still do stuff like that. they will just have a slightly harder time doing so

off the top of my head, you could probably do this with fall damage now that i think of it

[gilded dock]

True that

Barbed wire inflicting damage(or better yet, immediately causing a bleed) would give another reason to play support

As it is, it just slows someone down for 1 second, unless you've stacked them back to back

[clear maple]

And as far as I'm aware, enemies can deconstrust your barbed wire