Support - Feedback

[grim fog]

It wasn't a huge problem until today

After 300h in this game, i only take about 4 hours playing with support, trying to at least survive at gunfight

But with the last bandages buff, it's even more painful because every enemy can heal themselves and your armor is already gone LMAOO

[opal pecan]

I played support a lot until they capped claymore at 4

[dreamy prawn]

A bit of a buff to active mines would be nice, Means you can close off more doorways to your nest, A increase to 6 should be fine

[woven fossil]

Yes everything support was able to do the best has been countered or nerfed. Thats a huge problem tbh.

[grim fog]

The last time I've played exo, 60% of my time is refiling my bandages, stop bleeding and healing my body, 10% shooting and reloading my M249, and 30% is asking for revive

[opal pecan]

Maybe claymore should have sqad cap (20?) and team cap (30/60/120?)instead of player cap

[grim fog]

"but you have an ammo box, enjoy unlimited bandages"

Yes but this is a battlebit not a two point hospital

[opal pecan]

Medic:

[grim fog]

Medic still top tier

[paper vector]

The spam was always caused by a minority of players. This would fix nothing and make it as bad as it used to be

[opal pecan]

not sure what the problems was, seen good squad avoiding entire minefields Ive spent 10 minutes building

and seen an insane just leveling buildings rendering mines useless

Claymore’s tripwire is janky to setup and obvious for careful players

[paper vector]

Spam

Which annoyed everyone who wasn’t one of the ones doing it

No class should ever be reliant on pure randomness for kills.

Personally I think claymores and mines shouldn’t even exist but I know most people think it would be worse to remove them

[grim fog]

Yeah agreed

Getting killed by claymore is too cheesy

[opal pecan]

Apply this template to any A+ tier gun and rpg

One of the problem is the allowed amount doesn’t scale with battle size or mode

It’s way more effective when you know where to defend (rush) vs a 7 point conquest /w all vehicles

Terribly placed mines also just chain explode into nothingness

Not to mention recent changes on shooting devices

If you’ve played claymore game enough it’s also not hard to notice it doesn’t guarantee one hit kill for some reason (and various clips showing the tripwire not working from time to time) I had to double claymore most of the time

After the change I only bring ap mines

Oh did I forget to mention claymore is unlike irl counterpart not doing directional damage? The only selling point, gone

[woven fossil]

If you die to a claymore its because you are bad at watching your surroundings. They are very obvious

They were nerfed because the speed meta medics had a single reliable counter and that couldnt stand.

[opal pecan]

besides, if you work with teammates reviving you from explosion it doesn’t count as death anyways

I use it more of a “oh claymore exploded, someone is coming” than caring about the kills

kinda reminded me of the cod6 mp days when I had to c4-claymore pair to guarantee kills

[inner monolith]

Working out specific % reductions for different weapon classes is too much hassle, but I think it would make a lot of sense to just add a flat reduction. E.g. normal reduces 1 to all hits, heavy reduces 2 and exo reduces 4.

This automatically becomes more effective against stuff like SMGs and pistols because the reduction represents a bigger % of their damage.

[opal pecan]

Would be a bit unfair for guns that were designed to punch through armor which were represented as light vehicle damage for some reason

[inner monolith]

Well, I won't complain if you want exo to make me a human humvee.

[paper vector]

Sometimes you could end up vaulting into them such that they could not be seen beforehand. And until recent changes teammates would sometimes blow me up after I went around them by detonating them themselves.

[paper vector]

Would require total game rebalancing

So I’d say unlikely.

Those reduction numbers would make armour way less viable than it is right now, though.

[inner monolith]

On top of the flat HP.

[inner monolith]

Not that current balance is perfect. With such reductions in place, there'd be more room for weapons that have the same DPS but different roles against armored vs unarmored targets based on their per-bullet damage and so on.

[paper vector]

Oh, I see. That would make more sense

[paper vector]

In-Game it is totally random whether you run into more or less armoured enemies. Specialisation doesn’t really mean a lot for this as it just boils down to how popular armour is… could still gather data for a flat average ttk ranking despite these changes.

It would just make guns on the whole less reliable

[inner monolith]

Well, I'll you that it's definitely more likely to have lighty armored enemies running into you than the other way around. :P

[woven fossil]

Every other class has a blatantly OP gun when is it Support's turn

[opal pecan]

we need m2 browning

Wait, isn’t mg3 coming

Surely it won’t be op

[royal hare]

thats one that was listed with RPK-16 and M60 i believe

[woven fossil]

Nothing makes me wanna doompost more than the Ultimax 100. This gun is so hilariously weak and slow it needs buffs.

[opal pecan]

It’s an aa gun (it has 5 light armor dmg, way more than m249’s 3)

[woven fossil]

isnt it 6

[upper harbor]

Biggest issue with support is the lack of survivability. The armor debuffs don't really balance of the positives. An extra couple bullets needed to kill is just a fraction of a second at the end of the day. Either the exo armor needs a flat damage reduction or a nerf to the negatives to make it viable

[calm swallow]

I'm not sure what the deal is with the ultimax. I feel like some days it has more recoil than others.

[silk crow]

What we should do is force the Devs to play Support and everyone go Medic until there are changes

We either going to get the class deleted or they actual make it not 💩

[grave rivet]

tbh i switched from exo armor to normal armor and kpet the exo helmet and it just feels so much better to play

[clear maple]

Normal armor support is just so damn good

[calm swallow]

I think support will improve once the weapon selection improves. If the weapons seemed semi powerful, then the downsides of being slow won't be as bad.

I lose a LOT of gunfights because it takes longer for me to get my weapon on-target, and once I do, the average damage/fire rate doesn't allow me to make up for the missed time while my weapon was being shouldered/aimed

[calm swallow]

Oh yeah, one more thing. Add an automatic ping to heavy ammo boxes when placed by support.

Something like that, to show everyone there is ammo.

[snow python]

I love this class so much but so many things hinder it:
I can't repair or resupply my armour. So after it's broken I'm slow but not wearing armour apparently.
Most of the weapons are not good so you just see people using the M249, and rarely do you see the others.
Being the Construction class would be fine if you could rely on squad leaders to place objectives at all so you can build things.
I place an ammo box no one uses it, someone asks for one and maybe two people use it.
What is the bipod for, I tried it for a map and it was so awful I refuse to ever use it again. Let me deploy my weapon or something.
If I am deploying my weapon then I will be unarmed if I a flanked, why don't we have smg or something as sidearms? We're the big tank class.

I love this class, I main this class, but it just feels so bad to play, I played a game as Assault and it was like being an olympic sprinter going on a massacre.

[clear maple]

In what way does Support actually... support?

That is to say, what is the goal of this class?

Are we construction man? Wouldn't an engineer be good at building? That's literally their real life job inside and outside of the battlefield.

Are we Heavy from TF2?

Do we support by just being the Water/Ammo Boy?

Or is it just "we took the name from another game and didn't have a plan"

This class is pulled in so many different directions, it's like playing as the manifestation of an identity crisis.

Some people want "Beefy man with equally beefy gun". Some people want "Fast man with fast but beefy gun". Some people want construction man

Not everyone can be happy. It just doesn't work

[paper vector]

yes

But we also have ammo boxes

[clear maple]

The answer is we're all and none of these things at the same time

Because support does all of them horribly

[royal hare]

i feel people would rather die and respawn on a teammate than interact with an ammo box

[paper vector]

…Why?

Literally just takes a second to refill everything

Like, that just seems nonsensical

Respawning takes 10 seconds and then some more to get back to the front

[grim fog]

Because respawn is easier

[paper vector]

???

[grim fog]

It is

[paper vector]

How

[grim fog]

Why thinking about refiling whole you can respawn easily

No need for press f and click the number

[paper vector]

That is not some sort of complex process

[grim fog]

It's not complex, but respawn is easier

[paper vector]

In both scenarios it’s two actions but one takes far longer

If pressing two buttons is somehow perceived as too difficult for some people then I honestly don’t know what to say
Just seems unrealistic.

[grim fog]

It's not difficult

Respawn just easier

You said it was unrealistic, but it happened a lot

That's why some people respawn rather than getting revived by medic

[paper vector]

Getting revived by a medic is no effort whatsoever

[grim fog]

Or some people take a grenade to their face rather than asking for ammo

[snow python]

Remember, the average player is an idiot

[spark musk]

its the mentality
screaming in voice I NEED AMMO
finding the one person who is not a medic and actually has ammoboxes
sitting there staring at a box and holding buttons only to be denied after a bit because it ran out of box points because your refilling rpgs

vs
dying and spamming space

it just feels slow

[paper vector]

People instantly deciding to bleed out doesn’t make sense either, it isn’t any faster unless you wait for at least 5 seconds first

[grim fog]

you said it doesnt make sense, but people do prefer respawn instead of asking ammo

logically, youre right, but its easier to respawn

[woven fossil]

Support xp is a pretty big issue though. the class is stupidly hard to get top leaderboard with. Less incentive to play an already not so great class.

I was the top support of both teams in a 127 today. highest xp and kdr in our match (of all supports) and still below about 30 other players, most of who had less kills.

Actual Supporting needs to reward xp. Rewards for providing defenses and extra utilities, suppressing fire, vehicle destruction, etc. You only get rewarded for killing and a tiny bit for ammo kits. I have the majority of my time as support and I probably could have prestiged already if I played medic instead. Its very frustrating

maybe gun / bipod buffs are the answer. the big dude with the big machine gun should be a force to be reckoned with

[high gate]

teammates using your ammo boxes should definitely award much more xp. you only get like 50 per use, which is nothing. should be at least double that

[paper vector]

You get more the more people use it

You can often get hundreds from a box

[dreamy prawn]

And You can get a thousand from a heal, thousands from a tank kill

[spice berry]

All classes should have the same base move speed.
Any increases or decreases in move speed should be reflected in their equipment and not as hidden stats.

[inner monolith]

All of that seems easily achievable. I would much rather lean in the direction of making exo proper tanky and keeping it slow. It could get a nerf to throwables, gear, maybe even no sidearm and make exo helmet block you from using high zoom scopes. In exchange, you would finally get to be the scary beefy badass nobody wants to run into, CoD Juggernaut style.

The more realistic military Infantry Support role could be fulfilled with the heavy armor that lets you carry about the same stuff you currently can. Bipod buff and armor replenishing gear should round it out really nicely.

Then if you want to focus on videogame-style support via construction and ammo, it would make sense to have the normal armor give you the most gear slots. Instead of prioritizing direct combat, you'd be setting up mines, building forts and the extra ammo boxes would also help you provide a sort of indirect fire support via nade spam. I think having a deployable shield would also be nice here, so this kind of role is not entirely deleted when squad points aren't available and it would help as initial protection when you want to help deploy cover in a hot zone.

[sweet sinew]

Why support has this and not engineer feels like a weird translation error

Supports role is supposed to be a heavy firebase with mobility issues, give MGs some kind of suppression mechanic like near-misses causing micro aim-punches or blur/distortion

Currently there's really no way to keep someone's head down without just blowing it off

[inner monolith]

Everyone hates suppression that arbitrarily nerfs your character and it'd be a finetuning headache for the devs. Still I agree it would be cool to have some effect for that, so I think an acceptable middle ground would be to make bullet impacts against surfaces have an AoE that splashes "dirt" on your vision and creates accumulating dust clouds. So a couple of seconds of focused LMG fire close to a sniper behind a tree would obscure their view enough for them to need to reposition, without making their screen all wobbly like they suddenly got drunk.

[dreamy prawn]

Insta build means support can make a bunker or cover where ever when ever, very useful when you can’t reposition very well so the ability to improve your current location is invaluable

[paper vector]

the point is it isn't thematic

but I'm cool with it

[sweet sinew]

Yea, I get the actual reason but it still feels weird

[clear maple]

Honestly I feel like the game is so arcadey at this point any attempt at realism like suppression is going to be immediately shut down. And I'm happy about that

Suppression is bullshit. Coming from a longtime support player in other franchises

[weary fog]

suppression as a game mechanic outside of milsim isn't a good thing, because suppression only works in a self preservation sense IRL. Since you can respawn, people will still just jump into a stream of bullets and shoot back. And, since LMG's are pretty inaccurate in comparison, a player will know from the tracers exactly where you're shooting from and have a good chance of killing you after jumping through your bullet stream.

[dreamy prawn]

That's dependant on what the effects of that suppression is, I wouldn't see a sort of "supportive" effect as a negative. Say making accuracy drop, Slowing movement a tad or increasing ADS when shooting near someone with support, Sure your not killing any enemies but your sure as hell helping someone who is.

[meager cypress]

probably 25%+ of my kills are from people trying to move through my bullet stream

[calm swallow]

100% of the kills I get are because I was already walking or ADSing when an enemy just happened to come into view.

Since it takes so incredibly long to ready/aim your weapon if you are sprinting or using some other gadget.

[spice berry]

OKAY
@paper vector @meager cypress
So
I was wrong AND my data was messed up
But I know why now
So initially I thought that the classes had more or less inherent move speed. I was wrong
The classes have the same base move speed.

But I know how the movespeed actually works now.
Armor/backpack/helmets has a run speed stat, I couldn't get perfect matches with everyone but I was able to get close enough to guesstimate what the results should be and the results were within expected values.
I redid all my 1000m runs in the shooting range.

What I found was actually this:
Your armor has the biggest impact on your run speed.
Then BOTH of your guns. Your primary AND your secondary.

Then I think this is the funky part.
Your gun in hand with its attachments matters
But only the base run speed of your holstered gun.
The attachments on your holstered gun have no seeming impact on your run speed

So you could have a drum mag mg36 holstered and you would run the same speed as if you had the normal mag mg36 holstered instead.

[paper vector]

very interesting

[spice berry]

Also I made an ass of myself making an issue about the classes having different move speeds when I was just wrong

and I really don't know where I messed up in my initial testing but after retesting everything I can pretty safely say I was in fact wrong

However, in the case of kit move speeds
The general speed in which the classes can move faster than support are still relevant.
But if everybody was running kits with identical stats in all slots, then their speeds should be pretty much the same.

[weary garden]

Yea rn heavy helmets and exo helmets and normal support backpack need readjusts which will make the class feel faster

And we can talk about buffing the heavier armor in different ways

[spice berry]

Yeah, the run speeds on the heavier armors and on the helmets has a pretty significant impact on move speed that REALLY slows you down.
I think it's mainly that extra modifier on helmets but they still kind of need to be their for balance, otherwise there's no downside to taking a heavier helmet.
Otherwise they'd just have to reduce the penalty on both the helmets and the armors to adjust so they're not SO far behind.

[woven fossil]

Support backpacks should be looked at. Especially with the anti grenade trophy being added.

A normal/heavy bag allows you to carry 5 trophies and still only have 4 placed at a time.
The slower bags are good for ammo boxes, especially grenade spamming but useless anywhere else. How often do you actually live long enough to need more than 3 ammo kits?

Its also weird that the normal and heavy bag have the exact same stats.

[paper vector]

Yeah big backpacks are just good for support

Normal seem artificially nerfed to push people away from them. Heavy ones too but I’m not sure to what extent

[spice berry]

Sounds like the same problem claymores and mines have.
Carry 5, place 4

[high gate]

that's really not a problem

it lets you replace them after one of them detonates without resupplying

[spice berry]

So then clearly trophies have the same not-problem
Except my desire for round numbers, sets of 5, and the ability to use all I have tells me that I should be able to place all 5 OR I should only be able to hold 4

[inner monolith]

IMO it is a problem in the sense that it feels arbitrary and there's no clear info about that in-game. I think letting people place as much stuff as they can carry would be just fine.

[opal pecan]

trophy removed every reason of support existing, no gadget spam, no nade spam allowed

[silk crow]

No ammo box too

[clear maple]

My proposal:

Make each armor class as fast as the next lightest.

Exo moves as fast as heavy does now. Heavy moves as fast as normal. Normal, with a LSW, moves as fast as other normal armor classes with a 1.00 run speed weapon

No changes to durability or coverage because armor is already annoying enough as is. And it'd be impossible for any real world armor to protect your arms and legs from rifle rounds.

Let's be real. LSWs are really just shittier assault rifles in this game. And that's fine. But the penalties of them being intrinsically slow and then justifying it by saying "they get an extended mag" isn't really fair when extended mags come with even greater penalties

[royal hare]

yeah extended mags penalties are nuts on them

[weary garden]

\

You gotta believe

[clear maple]

152lb gun btw

[weary garden]

anyways the point here is real world arms don't matter as much as real world chest

in game they're equally important

both take 1.0x damage

oki doesn't want to do any limb damage stuff so

[clear maple]

Oh no I'm addressing the "Give exo better coverage" comments

Every single piece of armor I've seen and worn personally short of a bomb suit, anything that goes on the limbs is exclusively frag rated.

[weary garden]

that's my point

you'd need better coverage OR limb damage to make exo armor actually effective

right now it protects your back more than your front

[clear maple]

Ah I see. And Oki said no

[weary garden]

the pro players said no to the coverage and oki said no tto the tarkov styled limb damage

something about slowing down the game

[clear maple]

I'm glad

[weary garden]

negotiations are still in progress because I'm still not satisfied with the state of exo armor

at the minimum making it last longer

doesn't need more HP, because there's ways to make it take more bullets without tanking more damage

IE DR with a health cap

[clear maple]

Has the armor repair system been proposed? How was that recieved?

[weary garden]

no

well

nothing about support's been proposed to oki bc he's 100% into community servers right now

[clear maple]

Understandable

[weary garden]

but the rest of the team feels like it'll increase downtime between gunfights even more than bandages do

so I'm going the DR route

and looking to find a balance for coverage

[clear maple]

That's an interesting point, I see the logic there for sure

[weary garden]

but for armor to leave you vulnerable all of there seems pointless and I want to explore something that isn't just a generic gunshield

Usually suppression would fill this role

or flinch

but one is "too milsim" and the other is too rng

so running out of ideas

[clear maple]

How would the percentage damage reduction work?

[weary garden]

each armor does flat bullet DR making TTK exactly equal to their current counterpart

optionally you add a max amount of damage absorbed

[clear maple]

Ohhh but the armor has a separate health value that's damaged on reduction

Interesting. Reminds me of the Resist Shield from Planetside 2

[weary garden]

not exactly

This applies to the armor hitbox specifically, and isn't based on a timer

[clear maple]

Right, yeah

Just drawing a comparison to something I'm more familiar with

[silk crow]

Either damage resist or explosive resistance is what I would go for

I don't get enjoyment of being instanted gibbed by a blast at the wall and not directed at me

[weary garden]

when you have trophy systems do you really need explosive resist

[silk crow]

It does if Gadget slots don't change

Give up my beloved ammo box or get a grenade eating trophy

There's no flexibility on gadget loadouts atm.

[weary garden]

it's 100% changing considering it was supposed to be an alternate to c4

[silk crow]

I hope so cause as useful as C4 is. I want some loadout variety.

[clear maple]

Y'know, that reminds me. What's the point of the small ammo kit?

[silk crow]

It exists for variety on Support

[clear maple]

So that could be converted to a speed bonus in exchange for having a worse ammo box? 👀

[weary garden]

gadgets don't have speed coded in

[woven fossil]

this is kinda weird but if the front arm was on the cheekpad instead of the grip when proned that might make the hitbox a bit better

[clear maple]

I don't think it's weird. Not a bad idea actually

[woven fossil]

might make a good bipod change possibly? since your hand obviously wont be in the front anyways

[royal hare]

the ext. mag penalties should be reduced. if were supposed to be dumping rounds atleast let us hit the target

[snow python]

The fact SMG's are spraying me better from a distance then I can... some of the weapons just make no sense in their balancing.

[royal hare]

yeah its usually an mp5 for me. ill be shooting an unsuspecting enemy with the ultimax get a bunch of armor hits then they whip on me and i die

[inner monolith]

Plus it would look more tacticool. I support.

[royal hare]

i just got kicked out of a group for fortifying an objective when we had over 1k points

[inner monolith]

I wonder if it would make more sense to have everyone get a separate pool of points so there isn't this possibility of feeling like someone else is misusing your resources. And also so you don't lose what you presumably contributed to just because you get kicked off a squad.
(I do think this is a relevant discussion for support's role)

[royal hare]

thats what i was going to go into with my post

just stopped typing to make a drink sry

[spark musk]

(this problem is going to get worse whenever leader airstrikes are added)

[inner monolith]

I honestly hope they never get added. There's absolutely nothing fun about getting blown to bits just because someone clicked on you from the other side of the map.

[royal hare]

if anything if a part of supports identity is building fast and fortifying they should atleast get a separate point system. and make it to where the enemy cant just silently disassemble them. make them have to be destroyed

[ashen dagger]

There is a thread called
"#Squad Points / Buildables - Feedback" specifically for this, sorry to interrupt (I don't know how to link threads in this horrible chat software..)

[royal hare]

no worries im just talking about it in regards to support in general

[ashen dagger]

Absolutely, we ARE the fortnites of this game.

TEST
#1138401714475642890 message

[inner monolith]

Just click on the [...] of some message in the thread and then copy message link like #1138399550210576466 message

[grim fog]

medic can heal UNLIMITED, by himself and for friendly if they didnt released their medic box

the same should be applied with support box

[spark musk]

maybe for regular ammo?
im not exactly entertaining the idea of infinite bandage/c4/rpg/nades

[opal pecan]

in the last dev stream they did show off zombie mode and said zombies have a massive proportional damage reduction, why can’t that be applied to armor

[inner monolith]

I would prefer to see medkits get the ammo pack treatment and instead just be limited-supply bandage sources. Of course this would have to come along with something like resupply spots at capture points or something (which would also benefit support since currently once your ammo packs run out it's just a dead slot).

[snow python]

This has happened to me before as well

[dusty plinth]

Something like Angel's Crate in 2042 where you can throw ammo pouches at players perhaps?

Speaking of such, I believe Support should also carry an increased amount of bandages and be able to revive/self-heal quicker, not as many or as quick as Medic, but quicker than other classes (maybe by 1 second) with up to double the maximum total bandages (8) of other classes.

[inner monolith]

Quick self-bandage should be a thing for Assault only IMO (yes, not even medic). Support is the slow chonky boi of the lineup so I don't see why it should get such a buff.

I'd prefer prioritizing improvements to survivability at 100% (e.g. via armor repair kit) but letting get back to that 100% be a bit slower as the tradeoff.

[clear maple]

There were concerns that the armor kits would slow down the game even more than bandages already do

[clear maple]

See replied comment

[inner monolith]

I see. That'd be a very nice option as well since it'll let support be much more sustainable simply through the extra bandages he can carry. I hope it doesn't result in armor getting nerfed in some other way though.

[royal hare]

what about debris? someone shooting out of a window you start laying rounds into it the bullets that hit the building create some kind of small visual blockage that forces them to reposition. no suppression no rng

[calm swallow]

Huh? The surface area on the front and rear of the Exo armor is the same.

[weary garden]

your arms are a seperate hitbox meaning your back is more armored than your front

anybody aiming for your head is gonna hit pure flesh

[calm swallow]

the size of the armor plate in the back of your body is the same size as in the front *

[weary garden]

read through the flinch threads and you'll see people don't like not being able to see or fight back or w/e. also ngl sounds a bit underpowered and taxing for the servers

[weary garden]

that's true, but the amount the armor effectively covers on the front is lower just because of the arms. even on the shoulders they clip forward a bit while the back shoulder armor is in full use

[inner monolith]

It's literally just applying a different effect to an AoE hit check like every single explosive projectile in the game. And nobody is a developer here so premature speculation about that is pointless.

[weary garden]

We don't have bullet impact holes because of server costs

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I can bring it up ig but it really sounds as impactful as current suppression

[inner monolith]

Because those have to stay synced in the map, if the splash effect just e.g. applied a direct effect on the affected person's HUD then it's pretty much the same as checking for damage

[weary garden]

But that's not what he suggested and goes back to problem 1 of players just not wanting their screen touched

[inner monolith]

There's a difference between moving your screen around like your character is drunk (annoying, unrealistic) and putting some stuff on it to indicate some status (blood when hurt already does this)

Like even flashbangs who everybody hates are still considered acceptable in the sense that nobody is lobbying for their removal

[weary garden]

Because they flash your teammates more than your enemies

And are a grenade

Just rarer

[inner monolith]

Sure. Still more annoying. So suppression (at least this idea of it) is in a different part of the space, further along the "frequency" and smaller along the "annoyingness" axes.

[weary garden]

Again, I'll bring it up but it just sounds gimicky. So its specifically to counter those in cover?

In your visualization of it

[inner monolith]

So, I would say that even as a purely cosmetic effect, I would just appreciate it as feedback that there are bullets landing close to me. This could be a very light "specks of dust" overlay applied to most weapons.

Now, as a mechanism of suppression, there could be a stacking AoE effect triggered when hitting surfaces. So indeed, this should not affect someone running through an open field with bullets just zooming past them, or someone fully in cover like behind a wall.

The main situation where I wish this would work is when I see someone in a precarious position (e.g. barely hiding behind a tree down in Waki river). You might be able to see just a few pixels of their character model, so you start firing trying to hit them. Currently, this just lets them know you are now fighting to control recoil and they can shoot back with no penalties, particularly frustrating when it's someone with a precision weapon like a sniper.

So I wouldn't say I want to broadly "counter people in cover", but rather, dissuade someone who I can clearly tell is behind a particularly limited amount of cover but has an accurate weapon from confidently engaging in peekaboo against someone who should have the initiative against them.

I do think that the amount of "dust" that would need to muck up a HUD to become a meaningful obstruction for accurate return fire might be way too high. So a couple complementary ideas here would be to have a moderate "fade out" effect along the edges of the screen, to limit the target's peripheral vision and maybe a penalty to ADS time. I believe none of these things cross the line of "taking control away" from the character, and note that it would also not drastically affect someone who is already aiming at the person who is attempting to suppress them. So it really is about making "initiative" against exposed enemies feel right for LMG-style weapons without turning them into lasers (which would be the alternative).

[weary garden]

Just an fyi there is a suppression effect that does your specs of dust type thing when bullets pass near you, it's just very mild. It'll tint the very edges of your screen

[inner monolith]

I swear I have heard about it and I try to pay attention in game but I guess I just forget in the heat of battle every time. 😅

[weary garden]

You just don't notice it because most of time time if someone's shooting at you you're usually just dead

And it's also super faint

[inner monolith]

I saw someone saying there was also a more extended "fade out" effect, but I don't think I have ever seen that one. It would be nice if someone had a video of that just for curiosity's sake.

[weary garden]

Like I can not stress how little most players would notice it unless they're actively looking for it

[royal hare]

i dunno if you have posted it anywhere but how do you see the Support class.

[weary garden]

Wdym

[royal hare]

like what do you expect out of the class

[weary garden]

Defensive specialist

Midrange king when given setup

That goes into the gun, squad point building and bipods as a trifecta

[royal hare]

agreed

[weary garden]

Personally I could live with just normal armor but exo is the starter, is popular, and needs to be more present in the game for those players

So that's gotta be addressed to some extent

[dry bobcat]

What do you mean by "I'll bring it up". Do you have an inside channel to the devs?

[inner monolith]

How do you feel about leaning into the fearless chonky boi side (as a separate goal from defensive specialist, achievable through different itemization)? E.g. buffing exo in survivability but adding restrictions like no prone, no ADS, slowed bandaging, etc.

[weary garden]

Okis got a team of guys that are solely there to read and filter feedback and present community concepts, it got brought up last devstream but that where the weapon changes and bandage change came from

[dry bobcat]

neat

[weary garden]

Not a fan, mostly because at high player scale it feels unsatisfying to play against. As for the player, any restrictions you add on top of the slow runspeed is going to make the class more irritating to play than balanced

There's definitely things I'd like to do in terms of his survivability for exo players, but not through increasing raw HP

Like unbreaking/higher durability armor

[clear maple]

It's a progression complaint but it's specific to Support

But why are different armor types locked behind rank when they make such a drastic change?

How can we tell how many people actually enjoy running exo when they don't even have access to other lighter armor?

[weary garden]

Larry talked about it on devstream and isn't happy with it. Basically vilaskis chose to do this weird batch system? Instead of linear progression

Armors were also supposed to be a lot more varied

[clear maple]

Interesting, I must've missed that

[weary garden]

Basically they're aware but Oki is hard focused on community servers

This actually also applies to heavy and ranger armor on other classes

And big backpack for engi

[royal hare]

personally id like for support to not have to rely on squad points to build and for the structures to not be able to be disassembled by enemies. make them give up a c4 or rocket

[weary fog]

I think some of the main issue is that the game is so fast paced that being a defensive, immobile 'specialist' can be a major detriment. If you need to relocate its almost better to just respawn. Squad points being a limiting factor in being able to even perform your specialization is strike two. Support's weapons are almost all inferior to every other class's options also. So to play support, you have to make major sacrifices in mobility and combat effectiveness so you can survive maybe 2 or three additional bullets before you have to duck out of a fight. Even the slowest firing automatic weapon doesn't give you enough time to pull up your weapon to return fire before you die

[inner monolith]

If the mine cap went up even to just 6, I think it would massively help with setting up a fortified position. Alas, 4 is too little to effectively cover an area. :(

[royal hare]

yeah the guns def need some love. i cant wait for more to be added hope its soon

[clear maple]

Agreed. Every other class relies on speed to survive. Support being the exception is problematic because of how easy it is to be out-maneuvered and killed from a flank. Support will continue to lag behind unless the design philosophy changes.

The current theme will not work for support until they make him so beefy he becomes unfun to fight.

In my personal experience, the added armor just gives me time to process my death. The difference between exo and normal armor's TTK is so low that it's more or less meaningless. We're talking maybe a tenth of a second.

[paper vector]

Should be about 70% longer with exo than unarmoured

[clear maple]

It's not

[paper vector]

Yeah it is

You don’t get hit markers until it’s broken so it feels like less than it is

[clear maple]

I'm not going to "nuh uh, yuh huh" this

[weary garden]

If we're talking pure body armor hits sausage is right

[paper vector]

I’m talking a spread of hit locations

[weary fog]

I suppose it just seems like Support's power budget isn't comparable to the other classes.

You move far slower, and your weapon is both slower to ADS AND to swap. The weapons are also far less accurate than ARs and SMGs, even with perfect aim 70% accuracy means even at <100 your bursts aren't reliable. And only the MG36 does decent damage in exchange for that inaccuracy. The 100 round mags aren't enough to balance out their ineffectiveness. And instant building isn't enough to balance out the immobility.

The other thing to mention too is that ammo boxes give almost no xp even when they're 100% utilized, and that it is RARE for them to even be used by other players. Fortifications give no xp on their own either. So to play support means progression is negatively hampered. In comparison, a medic can fight almost the best of all classes due to having access to the best weapons and moves the fastest with the default armor loadout, WHILE getting double a kill's xp to revive and tons of xp running your medic healing box. You don't have to do any special planning or strategizing to progress lightyears faster than a support, just hold your medic box and heal/revive all match.

[paper vector]

L86A1 kills significantly faster than MG36

[inner monolith]

Question, does helmet absorb damage after headshot multiplier or does only excess damage get the multiplier applied

[paper vector]

It absorbs damage from headshot multiplier

[clear maple]

70% with a sub second TTK against other armors is still infinitesimal.

[weary garden]

Well yeah

[paper vector]

The idea is that it’s an advantage

It gives you leeway in how late you can afford to start hitting them

[weary fog]

That gun is so unfun to use, I may be the definition of "skill issue" but I hated myself when I had to use that gun

[weary garden]

But effectively it's about 50-80% more not including hits to the head that make the ttkk even longer

[paper vector]

I find it very powerful

[weary garden]

And if we're talking bullets to kill, that's an extra 3-4 in a 30 round mag

[clear maple]

I get the idea, I understand how armor works. But whether it's a third of a second or half a second, it doesn't matter because that's how long it takes to ADS with a LSG

[paper vector]

Kills super quickly and has less recoil than any gun that kills faster

[inner monolith]

Yes, it has brutal recoil initially. But it gets a lot more decent with recoil reducing grip and barrel to move it above 33 damage.

[weary garden]

You have better chances winning a gunfight against 3 medics than 3 exps *theoretically

[weary garden]

Amazing weapon, awful starter weapon

[inner monolith]

Not when they're playing Dance Dance Revolution dodging half of your clip

[paper vector]

Did you actually simulate that or is that just a guess

[clear maple]

It's hypothetical because of health values

[weary fog]

I may have to give it a second look, but I still think that support weapons need some love across the board, and more variety to them too. NOt just "let them access other weapon classes" because I like the classes having their own distinct weapon choices.

[weary garden]

Effectively you'll run out of ammo on the exos

Even with an smg

[paper vector]

There are new guns planned for them

[weary fog]

I know that, and I'm looking forward to them

[paper vector]

SMGs aren’t good for mag capacity

[weary garden]

Sure, but ARs don't fair much better

I have a clip that I'm not getting out of bed for, but it's basically unloading into an engineer and exo and getting no HP hitmarkers

No misses, just pure armor

The secret was I was shooting them in the back instead of the front

[grim fog]

The only answer is a buff for support armor, especially exo

[weary fog]

Well what I meant by power budget is that what good things you get, aren't as good as what you're giving up to give them. I'm not sure that an armor buff is the only solution that could bring the class up to the level of the others.

[inner monolith]

I would be fine with keeping slow ADS time if the wild recoil would at least be fixed. Should make sense to keep vulnerability when caught with your pants down, but let LSW/LMGs be truly scary when already pointed at someone.

[weary fog]

Don't forget their accuracy stat is low, so that wild recoil is ON TOP OF a weapon that is pretty inaccurate down the sights too

[grim fog]

Let him ate as many bullet as he can as long as he can shoot it back

My suggestion still stand

[tawdry ivy]

Ammo boxes need to be more visible and/or supports should be able to resupply their team directly same as medics. I am lucky if I see one single ammo box once every 2 or 3 matches.

[royal hare]

should the ammo box be a 1 button refill first come first serve?

[inner monolith]

Some valid points are raised here against the idea: #1138399550210576466 message

But personally I would be really happy to at least see this being tested. I feel like some middle ground must be possible between current tankiness (barely feels like it) and bullet sponge miniboss.

Particularly if that implementation of exo disabled gear slots, you would not see that many players running around with such a loadout simply because they would need teammates that can provide them with health and ammo.

[grim fog]

Exactly, it's a support afterall

Exo still can use an ammo box but not bandages

[obtuse storm]

They should have support players choose between the ammo boxes we have now and bags filled with armour plates and helmets, so we can resupply armour.

[celest kraken]

somewhat agreed.

let be frank here, ammo box's biggest asset is the facilitation of grenade and c4 spam. otherwise, its fucking pointless because we can just respawn with a full kit. something added that extends the life expectancy of players would actually make the ammo box more usefull too

[obtuse storm]

Kinda, with the new healing changes the bandages are being taken too but still more often than not the only person who uses the ammo box I dropped is myself to refill my LMG ammo.

Plus whenever I do find/drop one other support players drop theirs next to it too. So you have 4 ammo boxes within 1 square metre. And since there is no way to regain armour (except for dying) it would be handy if at least 1 of them was an armour bag instead.

[grim fog]

Refilling armor plates for support just make support player gameplay even slower

With exo it's already slow

[celest kraken]

bro, you are going to be slow whether you have those plates or not. at least now you can recover the armor in game instead of having a permanent debuff

[inner monolith]

I feel like most Support enjoyers are broadly in agreement with either 1) let armor be recovered somehow or 2) rework armor so it reduces damage and doesn't break. The specifics of how either of these are implemented would only make sense to discuss after we have at least some confirmation from the devs of which one they are going for.

[celest kraken]

i actually talked a bit about the problems support has in spawning mechanics. i genuinely think squad spawning is responsible for most of the problems faced by the game right now. it massively benefits the attackers. because of this, anything that is ideal for defending ends up being mostly useless

[silk crow]

The map design and how objectives are currently a FFA play a large part in that squad spawning problem. There is no benefits in defending.

[celest kraken]

without squad spawning, revives would be more important and people would be more willing to wait. this, in turn, would make more defensive classes stronger and the longer lives (as opposed to just respawning when out of ammo because you would need to walk from a point) would make ammo boxes more meaningful.

it would slow down the pace of zergs and actually allow defenders time to respond and allow support a role to serve instead of being "slow and fat assault with a lot of c4 and grenades". this is something claymore spam actually benefited the game with as obnoxious as they were (and barbed wire is a pretty obvious attempt at trying to slow the game down too),

[celest kraken]

yea, the whole squad points system needs work too. you need to be bad at defending to get any which is another major issue that disincentivizes them. why would i defend a point and get nothing for it when i could just let enemies onto the point and let the cap it only to take it back for a free 100 squad points

[silk crow]

Objective being contested shouldn't turn off spawning.

[grim fog]

While I agree with you, again, all classes except support is underwhelming if you play alone

Even medic is better as a "support" because :

1. Unlimited healing
2. 20 times reviving teammates

And medic is superior at everything to become an offensive/aggressive player compared to support

What I was suggested before, it's just making a support at least can eat some bullet and kill people without buffing the machine gun

[silk crow]

That's one of the biggest reasons why no one sticks around

[grim fog]

I don't see the resupply armor would do much to support

Even with exo, FAMAS will kill you with 13 bullet in it?

[silk crow]

I'd rather have something that doesn't chip off.

Most of the time EXO doesn't change you getting obliterated in CQC whether from front or back.

[grim fog]

Exactly

Exo do almost nothing

Only for you to go much slower and get easier to shoot at

[silk crow]

I still want the devs to play Support when they stream their games.

Even in demonstrations they use the Engineer

[celest kraken]

that probably explains the experience the vehicle players have been complaining about. feels like the devs hate vehicles to them. cant say i disagree with how prevalent c4 is and how squishy they are. they end up forced to play at the back of the map super safely because of how long the respawn timers are for vehicles

[silk crow]

No vehicles, shotguns, sniping, medics only.

[celest kraken]

the exception is the helis. personally they are mostly fine and their problems, again, stem from squad spawning

[obtuse storm]

Support isn't the only class that has armour, and the armour bag idea isn't meant "to just resupply armour for support". It's meant to expand their tool kit for their role: Supporting teammates.

[silk crow]

If they disabled squad spawns and gave everyone free rallies on cool down

You can Support teammates by being the bandage dispenser atm.
Whenever the devs decide to give their input is when we can confirm what to do or suggest.
Right now we are just spitballing.

It is frustrating on all ends when you hear a clink instead of seeing a kill.

[celest kraken]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

i dont have much of an issue, but then again i used dmrs extrensively 😩

i must have gotten used to it

[inner monolith]

You are aware that the support name comes from the use of machineguns to support their squad by suppressing the enemy with a hail of bullets right? Has nothing to do with MOBA/RPG style support.

[celest kraken]

you know, if suppression actually did something then those guns might be better

[silk crow]

Support the team with more kills

[celest kraken]

but this just circles the whole "if only defending was worth it" problem

i have been using the bipod a LOT lately on the m249. it is actually rather decent. the problem is, of course, the whole playstyle is aggravatingly slow when you are liable to either be left behind as your team surges forward in a wave and washes away all the enemies or you get crashed upon by the enemy wave and shot in the back because nobody stays behind

ocasionally the fronts stall out long enough that you can actually go prone and pick a sightline to cover and just mow down anyone who peak or sprints past. its a bit like playing recon, but the problem is you are much closer ranged

adding suppression (more than the lame visual effect, i mean something mechanically like causing your point of aim to jitter as if you have scope sway) would still leave me with the problem of either being too slow to actually contribute or being left alone for the enemies to mop up because im only a single person and i cant watch every angle

[obtuse storm]

I'm aware of that, but the game design clearly leans toward that the support class does more in it's support role than just "suppressive fire", (is there even a suppression effect in the first place?).
Why give them the ability to resupply ammo for their teammates or give them the ability to put down barbed wire, if their only role is to spam more bullets? At that point it would be just easier to remove the class and give the guns to assault...

[silk crow]

I had plenty of games where I could comfortably prone. Except I was doing it with an AR cause it worked better than LMGs on bipods currently.

You need to play a mini game to see if your Bipod plays nicely with you looking around.

[inner monolith]

Because you want to set up a protected area where you can lie down to effectively lay fire/take cover and rearm. Assault is oriented to moving through the map with more ease and fast gunplay.

[celest kraken]

this is so fucking agrevating too. trying to use a sandbag? well look too far left or right one it and sudenly your recoil skyrockets. too far up or too far down and it is the same

prone is the most reliable way to actually have the bipod work at the greatest angles

[silk crow]

Game design leans to medics vs medics. Support is currently a slow confused empty EXO shell with dreams and hopes that they fix the bipods.

[obtuse storm]

Literally the reply above you showed that Assault weapons are better to do that. So again, if that's the sole purpose of the support clase then they can just remove it and give the guns to Assault.

[inner monolith]

No, they need to make those guns work properly. Which is a separate issue.

[celest kraken]

The guns dont work properly not because they are bad but because they slow down support even more

Trust me, m249 is actually really reliable

[silk crow]

In around roughly 100m

It is in an ok state right now but I would like some recoil adjustments

Or make them more accurate

[inner monolith]

I don't disagree. Except for that damn bipod!! And I do think either their recoil and accuracy needs to be buffed a bit more or they get a suppression mechanic. Otherwise there really isn't much of a point for the high ammo capacities.

[grim fog]

yea M249 is actually fine

its just the support role that makes the gameplay bad

[meager cypress]

I would use the m249 more if the medium scope with it didn't feel like I was having a seizure

[placid whale]

m249 with slip is sort of doable

but holy shit man this thing shakes like a mother

even while proning this thing wont stop moving

[meager cypress]

I wouldn't mind if the gun itself was just as accurate just the recoil wasn't as violent

like it fired exactly the same it was just a bit easier on the eyes

[placid whale]

as soon as i unlock the vert grip for the m249 i dont have to pull down every fkn 2 seconds lmao

[meager cypress]

part of why I like the ultimax is with the lower ROF you can still track targets

[placid whale]

sitting at 0.9 vert recoil rn

[celest kraken]

i find lower rate of fire actually makes guns perform worse. the higher firerate sort of averages out the recoil and makes it feel smoother

[heavy sage]

I think support should have some sort of gadget that allows them to replenish armor for themselves and teammates, similar to the meddkit but with armor and not health. I think this would be a good way to give support some more utility while also making armor more useful.

Also the bipod needs to reduce recoil, not increase it

[strange field]

it does reduce recoil, you just need to be prone and immobile

[celest kraken]

And dont look up too high

And dont look down too low

Or too far left or right

At least if you try using it in a window or on sandbags or similar

[strange field]

yeah it feels like they were haphazardly added in without any of the maps being properly designed around bipods

[opal pecan]

The way bipod is implemented in this game is kinda janky cuz it’s hard to tell where I can deploy one and how wide can I shoot before it suddenly detaches

HLL bipod is janky as well but much more bearable, you press F to attach the bipod to one single spot and it doesn’t retract until you move or manually detach it

[celest kraken]

Its based on where the bipod comes out of the gun. Sniper rifles have it further foreward for example which means you can get wider angles.

basically, from the bipod point it tries to draw 2 lines down at an angle a short distance. For m249 the bipod is so close to you that on a sandbag you can only look like 45 degrees left or right before one of the legs slips off the ledge of the sandbag

[opal pecan]

One problem with sandbag is it doesn’t give enough suppression, you retract your gun at like -10 degrees

[opal pecan]

Sounds even more janky ngl, why does sr need to be stabilized

They’re perfectly accurate when you shoot standing with shaky hands

[celest kraken]

Sniper rifles have no scope sway with bipod. Only really matters with high powered scopes and only in a narrow niche

The medium scopes are more than enough for most maps

[opal pecan]

Holding breath already stabilizes the gun to perfect control even under 20x

need a bipod feedback thread

[celest kraken]

Yea, and you have glint while waiting (and the time taken varies based on the control stat)

the bipod literally means you can scope and shoot without ever needing to hold breath. It reduces your ads time but it is made up for by having an instantly stable scope

Remember, sniper meta is all about reducing glint visibility. So that means medium scopes or faster shots with high power scopes. You get faster shots with ads speed and less scope sway (control stat)

[opal pecan]

I don’t see the correlation, you just don’t ads (which generates scope glint) when you’re “waiting” and always hold breath when ads

[celest kraken]

Yes, but steadying thr scope takes time based on the control stat. So you hit shift and wait like a second or two on stronger scopes

the bipod removes that wait and lets you line up and shoot faster (generally an inprovement over the loss in ads speed except at closer ranges. You use the bipod with 20x and greater, maybe you could justify it for 15x)

At close range with 6x and 8x scopes you go for ads speed and control stat (or just use a medium scope and avoid the problem)

[meager cypress]

yeah you dont even do that

you use binoculars to mark the target with the red arrow, switch weapon, center, press zoom and then immediately fire without even waiting for the zoom in

its easier with a distance scope on a target siloetting against a hill because you can wait until the rangefinder goes from 0 to a number then just right click -> left click and you know you were on the guy

[clear maple]

I feel like the bipod discussion is best saved for the attachments thread. https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1138534897246556301

[opal pecan]

weird idea, make aim punch also factor armor in

Exo = next to none

Increase aim punch by a factor mitigated completely by normal armor and make lighter armor suffer a bit more

[unreal geyser]

I Main Support and i feel myself more at a disadvantage in most engagements. The armor is good for 2-4 shots and is useless after it but in STILL HAVE SLOW MOVEMENT/ADS SPEED AFTER I HAVE NO ARMOR/HELMET. The better i get the more obvious it is, because i stay walife longer. A armor repairkit would be nice to actually make it viable. Would be good thematicaly. The supporter who gives amo AND armor. So you would need 2 classes to be full health.
Also SUPPORT IS FORCED TO WEAR ARMOR.

[heavy sage]

Yeah some sort of armor replenising toolkit or something would be really nice

[weary garden]

Ngl

I need someone to justify exo armor existing

And acting as anything more than a noob/level0 trap

[heavy sage]

I think armour in general needs a rework

Armour shouldn't slow you down if it's been destroyed

[silk crow]

Any armor disappearing is justification for getting an armor rework

You feel bad when you shoot armor.
You feel bad when you lose armor.
You feel bad when you have no armor.

[heavy sage]

Tbh I've been considering just running no armour in every class cause I rarely ever hit armor when I shoot people so it just doesn't seem worth it

[silk crow]

You are completely disadvantaged in most engagements since you are forced into armor and LMGs/SAWs don't hold a significant niche advantage for you to use due to the heavy recoils and low accuracy.
CQC? Other guns brrrrr faster and ADS faster.
Medium range? AR is more accurate and kill you in less shots than you attempting to calm your gun that is going into a seizure for magdumping. Burst with the LMG feels terrible too.

People can tell you about the L86A1 is good and the TTK is high but the reality is that despite being not an LMG, you still suffer from the LMG classification of terrible recoil overall and needing to unlock the proper attachments to remedy the problem.

[weary garden]

The perma armor convo works better when exo armor doesn't exist

[silk crow]

Maybe EXO shouldn't exist and we can bring that convo up.

Right now you can do the same thing on prone on Assault somewhere and you'll yield better results just solely on guns and armor.

[royal hare]

its hard to cause if you are holding a point you are reduced to CQC and LMG fire rate and ads speed dont give you much of a chance to survive even with the EXO

but i do think it looks cool so even if they take it out i hope they keep it in as a skin

[weary garden]

I think I've suggested it before

But heavy and exo armor should straight up have the same health as normal armor

And in exchange give you better coverage

I've got people telling me that's OP, which to me is a sign that it's a good change

[royal hare]

id be ok with that

dunno if they will do that for the helmet since they have skins in the supporter pack

but if the guns were brought up to reflect that i think it would feel better

[weary garden]

exo helmet still covers your whole face

it's perfect for those peeking machine gunners

but heavy helmet?

yea you can tank a bullet that hits the top or back of your head wow

[opal pecan]

worst part, hvy helmet isn't accessible by any other class

who even uses it

[weary garden]

people who don't know better

[shell hound]

Heavy helmet has saved me from the annoying SSG snipers quite a few times as Assault and Engi, so I do run it on those.

And honestly the Exo Helmets can stay, because let's be real: even SMGs blow them off in what, 3 hits? 0.015 of a second? You're not gonna live much longer than anyone with a normal helmet anyway. The best thing about it is it lets you take a hit from a sniper without dying while you're trying to move.

Which as the slowest class, you can at least give them THAT bit of survivability.

[clear maple]

Armor in general is frustrating and dumb.

Just adds in RNG to fights

And unless it's exo armor, it's virtually indistinguishable from itself. What's the difference between heavy and normal armor? Can you tell at 50m? At 150m?

I feel like most people still don't know what armor does and that they can even change it. For most people it might as well be entirely cosmetic.

The UI even adds to the confusion. Like what do the numbers mean? What's durability and how does that do anything for me?

[weary garden]

That is imo so extremely niche and should really just be replaced by exo

[calm swallow]

I can recall maybe twice where I have lost a gunfight to an EXO support due to their armor saving them.

[weary garden]

Not to mention it's just a weird way to nerf snipers

[clear maple]

Imagine if support just had a face shield on all his helmets as an option

Instead of one armor set that sucks

[weary garden]

Ehhhh

[clear maple]

Gotta pick between a faster ads speed or being able to eat a shot to the face

[calm swallow]

Just give me a belt O’ bullets. Full on Rambo style but make it light class.

[weary garden]

For the better thh

[clear maple]

Light armor support 🤤

[weary garden]

You can keep your heavy rifleman role with normal helmet, and heavy gunner with exo helmet

So again, just replace heavy with exo

[calm swallow]

Either make me really good at having plenty of ammo, or make me really good at being an ammo dispenser.

[clear maple]

Does exo get heavy's speed?

[weary garden]

Heavy armor really should just be normal armor that carries more mags

[weary garden]

If we're going full rework, even faster than current heavy helmet

And exo body matches heavy body

[clear maple]

Honestly I'm okay with heavy being thanos-snapped because I only used it on the way to normal

[calm swallow]

When are we going to get the ability to refill teammates mags without them interacting other than standing still?

[clear maple]

When we get a reason to use the small ammo box

[weary garden]

Mags are such a non tradeoff right now esp for a class like support, but forcing a support to throw a crate more often? Perfect way to balance exo vs heavy vs normal

Speed, ammo or hitbox

[clear maple]

Even with the highest mag cap armor, I can only think of one time I ran out of both boxes and mags. And I had been revived like 5 times

[calm swallow]

I just want to be the Robin Hood of magazines. Redistribute the wealth as I see fit magazine wise.

[clear maple]

Unsurprisingly, ammo is a non-issue for support players. Even if I just had 2 belts for the 249, I'd be able to rock that just fine

[calm swallow]

No friendly shall go un-munitioned in my direct vicinity.

[weary garden]

I'll see if small ammo kit can just get more smaller ammo kits in the same way medic lost a base c4

[clear maple]

Why does support even have it? What's the point when the heavy kit is just straight up better?

It just feels so out of place. I didn't even know what the difference was until 5 seconds ago

I think it'd feel better if it was just like the medic's bag. Throw it, people can press [interact] with it and just get ammo instead of having to go through a clunky menu

I'm also just now learning what the point values mean, since afaik that's not explained in game either

[royal hare]

can we get somthing like this?

[silk crow]

I wouldn't mind trading out my backpack or armor for something like being an walking dispenser (with some limitations) that people can interact with

[paper vector]

It already does

Damage absorbed by armour doesn’t inflict aim punch right now, I believe

Tbh there needs to be some visual indicator of when your armour gets hit, right now you can only tell by a sound effect. Exo is more vulnerable to being taken by surprise because by the time you can see which direction you were hit from (or have even realised you’ve taken hits) your armour must already be gone

[paper vector]

You do, it just only tells you if the armour completely absorbs your shot

So your weapon could be reduced to like 2 damage by the armour but you still wouldn’t get an armour hit marker so you wouldn’t know

Which is why you only usually see it on support players

[paper vector]

3 hits would be 10x longer than that

[meager salmon]

exo armour doesnt have nearly enough durability (or smg damage is way too close in value to AR damage, but thats not for this forum), and support is just way too slow, relative to other players (and thus indirectly also relative to general bullet velocities, since thats an even larger disadvantage for support). add to that the fact that the guns are often out-damaged and/or out-recoiled (outshot?) by nearly every other gun under the sun, its an extremely underwhelming role to play as 3/4 of the time at best. short range, you get shredded. long range, you get domed by a sniper or just plain cant hit the target. medium range, you dont have the accuracy or walkspeed to outgun an AR and most SMGs. and in my opinion, the recent updates to aimpunch were too large and now we dont even have that to our advantage.

sort of an aside, but since it effects support more than recon, i will put it here; bipod does not reduce recoil enough when deployed, since it really only feels like any other grip, instead of like a semi-permanent gun mount. IMO, it shouldnt even have very many debuffs; it should have no base recoil buffs and debuffs at all, and perhaps a smaller ADS speed and walkspeed debuff, thats it. the primary debuff of a bipod is that you are stationary when its deployed. in this game especially, that is a very large debuff on its own, since it doesnt take much to get shredded when standing still. (id also like to have the option to set ADS toggle for ONLY BIPODS but meh)

[opal pecan]

I mean, instead of armor negating aim punch altogether, make the aim punch reduced according to how heavy the armor is and regardless if armor is gone or not. Just example numbers, increase aim punch by 50% while no/light/normal/heavy/exo reduces aim punch by 0/20%/40%/60%/80% respectively. This makes normal armor having 90% of aim punch of current implementation (consistent experience) but makes exo way more desirable (30% aim punch even if armor is gone). The reasoning is IRL body armor doesn't completely negate the bullet impact, you still feel the "punch" due to physics (conservation of momentum) just it doesn't tear your flesh.

or some extreme numbers, 0/10%/30%/60%/90% (just a middle finger toward light armor meta)

[inner monolith]

If we got armor reworked as flat damage reduction this would be automatically solved via the recently added exponential relation between damage and punch amount. Plus the SMG and AR damage gap, even if small, would become more significant since flat reduction would translate into a greater % reduction for lower damage projectiles.

I would say that compared to the alternatives (new items for fixing armor or additional stats for reduction, etc.) that change would be the easiest one implementation wise.

[meager cypress]

it can be very hard to do damage reduction without unintended consequences.
even if you say, do something like 5 damage for an exo suit, its not relevent in most cases because you dont reach a threshold for more bullets, except now you're immune to the kriss at like 60m+ which actually is kind of realistic because it would take like a thousand rounds to punch a 9mm through level 5+ armor at that kind of range, lol.
forcing the rapid fire guns to close distance in order to deal with supports could be fine and shouldn't affect many AR's, or snipers at all

[weary garden]

Actually, you can

A 0.90 DR would be identical to current game ttk for normal armor on all guns

Or ig 0.1?

[meager cypress]

Just imagine all the chucklefucks doing all these stupid TTK calculations throwing tantrums when you make the slightest change to every gun like that

[weary garden]

But it doesnt

It's the exact same

[meager cypress]

just wait

you're not wrong, they're just stupid

[weary garden]

If they're actually doing calculations they'll see if for themselves

[meager cypress]

however tweaks like that every once in a while will lead to another flurry of bad tier lists and stuff which = views and interest XD

Also the question would be, is it a .9dr only while the armor is up? all the time? if its all the time why isn't it just bonus hp? etc

[paper vector]

at point blank assuming no long barrel, bullets can deal fractional damage

[meager cypress]

I dont know how the blueprints are arranged in battlebit but you'd either check for armor on damage assignment and then reduce it or do it on hp loss or something, it could be a pain in the ass to add a whole subsystem when you could have just added a scoonch of hp for the same result

[paper vector]

damage reduction would require major game rebalancing no matter what, I believe

not impossible but a lot of work

[meager cypress]

Then you get into stuff like, how are bandages calculated? is it just a flat hp gain but everyone has the same hp so it doesn't matter? will they take 10% longer to medic them? who even gives a shit about this stuff? XD

If it were me I'd do small incremental changes like that, oo 10% more hp for support, then see what my data harvesting points me at if it was a good change or not.
Debating with chuckleheads who are bored enough to be in discord isn't great design XD

[weary garden]

Bonus hp means a longer time healing

And we also have fractional damage

It works out fine

All this change does is make it so your armor doesn't break while ttk stays exactly the same

[meager cypress]

Another thought, I wouldn't be against raising how deadly support is, but giving them a weird curve
like 75% damage to 100% damage at 50m then the current dropoff, so they're slightly more vulnerable at real close ranges like they should be, but you're buffing their damage or reducing recoil or whatever to help them at what they should be doing

[paper vector]

keeping overall ttk the same wouldn't be hard to do tbf

[meager cypress]

armor not being a weird, undocumented, not in the gui, weird system, can only help the game
i'd be shocked if even 10% of the players know how armor works

[paper vector]

you'd just need to do a little trial and error to work out how much DR = the current flat HP boosts

[weary garden]

I'm telling you I alr did that

[paper vector]

cool

though we can't do that with perfect accuracy but the devs should be able to as they can collect data on hit locations

[opal pecan]

Idk about changing damage profile, it would be interesting if there is some kind of paper scissor stone on the weapon-armor lineup counters but I’m afraid it might be frustrating to lose an encounter “because his gear pick just so happens to hard counter me”

[meager cypress]

Eh, it was just an idea
It was mostly that you'd keep your current effectiveness at close range and have a buff at your intended engagement range , right now the 249 can be pretty brutal at close range and if it got much better it might be much XD

tbh I'd like to see a similar change to dmrs so they aren't semi auto close combat monsters once they are buffed

[paper vector]

that already happens, and happens with weapon classes too

but yeah it could me made worse with some changes people have been suggesting

I think any player in any loadout should stand a decent chance against any other

[celest kraken]

i have actually healed to 100/100 hp and still was able to bandage myself. that is what clued me into health and damage being fractional

[paper vector]

some barrel attachments also give fractional damage

[celest kraken]

idk man, rock/paper/scissor is like the basics of balancing. i personally like the idea of smgs and other high firerate low damage weapons being able to shred through lighter armor at close range but be ineffective at longer ranges especially against heavier armor. it doesnt make me feel frustrated but rather satisfied at picking the right tools for the job (or appreciate my opponent for being able to do similar)

whats goofy to me is when we dont have rock/paper/scissors but instead have a jack of all trades master at all situation (which is what pre-nerf vector was)

even having too many jack of all trades tools can be bad for the game, c4 is like the default choice for gadget because it kinda does everything good enough. it can serve as a grenade, blow through walls, destroy vehicles, etc and it is pretty decent at all of it. other tools end up sidelined. why does anyone need a sledgehammer when they have c4?

[paper vector]

it would be weird to restrict HP to ints

[paper vector]

it means your performance in a fight is much more heavily luck based.

it's random what kind of enemy you run into

so it's random how good your gear is for countering what they've got

[celest kraken]

well that is why you put yourself into certain situations. if im a support im already setting up defensively somewhere to engage people at medium range. i shouldnt be bumbling through a building like a fat clown with an m249 trying to clear it where smg users are likely to be.

it would also emphasize teamwork to a much greater degree

[paper vector]

everyone fights everywhere in this game and few play for the team, because it gets you nothing

[celest kraken]

if people cant handle a bit of randomness then they really shouldnt be playing a game with so many players

[celest kraken]

we have already discussed these sorts of problems and they stem from a combination of both the respawn system and how squad points are awarded

[paper vector]

adding any random gameplay mechanics into a game flattens the skill curve.

so it should be minimised wherever possible

[celest kraken]

except this isnt random. this is you choosing a loadout for a particular situation. look man, if you want to go run across open fields with an smg then you will have a bad time. maybe a weapon better suited for longer ranges would be best

[paper vector]

that is not possible

you do not know what gear your enemies will have

if you're talking about the specific environment then yes, but that doesn't seem important to the discussion

[celest kraken]

well i for sure know that if im playing valley and i run across certain areas i will likely be putting myself into the sight of someone with a sniper rifle.

it is totally possible to know what gear your enemies have dude

you can assume they will bring gear to a fight that best benefits the environment they find themselves in

[paper vector]

on some places yes, that seems to me not what the original argument was about though?

if you make the maps have varied areas then that isn't random and that's fine

it's about making certain equipment counter other equipment

[celest kraken]

my point is just that support being better against lighter weapons would be a nice niche it could fill. flat damage reduction would do this ¯_(ツ)_/¯

you already are sniper bait with how fat and slow you are

we have rock and paper right there but no scissors

bolts and dmrs beat support, support beats... what?

[paper vector]

that would be RNG in my eyes. you cannot predict when you'll run into a support player

[celest kraken]

you are playing battlebit which has a mode featuring 100 players on each team. the game is random

[paper vector]

doesn't matter. you are suggesting we amplify it.

[celest kraken]

arguably, im suggesting the opposite. you can always expect people to have armor now instead of it being a toss up if the person has or hasnt been in a fight previously and lost it

[paper vector]

hmm. true.

I have no way to determine which factor would be larger

[celest kraken]

fair, i just find the current implementation of armor to be rather sucky and leave a lot to be desired

[paper vector]

I honestly think people would use heavier armour a lot more if it gave you hit markers for when your armour absorbed damage

[celest kraken]

Imo, my experience with armor is usually it just protects me from damage i otherwise wouldnt have taken if i were faster

[paper vector]

For me personally, people running are not harder to hit than people staying still unless you're at long range. The main thing with speed is you can do flanks faster, get to places faster, and get behind cover faster

ideally exo armour or empty armour should make no overall difference to your performance

[celest kraken]

It is significant when crossing doorways and open fields

And at really close range faster players can do the little hop spin air strafe bullshit and dodge like half your shots too with how fast they are

[paper vector]

that isn't a speed thing really, that's just a lack of intertia

you can do that while slow as well

[celest kraken]

If you think faster isnt an advantage then you havent been taking advantage of said lack of inertia

[paper vector]

it is an advantage

so is tankiness

[celest kraken]

We are going in circles at this rate, i suggest you play some other classes and optimize for speed to see what a difference it can make.

it really does make a huge difference in all sorts of gameplay aspects and increases your survivability far more than armor does

[meager cypress]

There's a reason I have that chucklehead blocked lol

[paper vector]

I am well aware of the difference it makes.

[snow python]

I've been maining support, when I randomly hop on assault and zoom around getting kills is so easy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is high

[paper vector]

or they just have a different set of skills to you

[meager cypress]

In general when I'm playing support, its
_get killed a bunch of times in a row
_actually get in position near a gunfight and roll in, getting lots of kills in a row pushing the fight forward or holding against a push

its very binge and purge, lol, I usually end up a little better than 2:1

[celest kraken]

Support amd recon player myself, i can consistently dodge sniper fire from the sheer speed and inertia i have as a lightly equiped recon. You cant do that as support. Even further, at medium range the speed you have makes you able to take stupidly sharp and jerky turns in the air and strafe out of the way of bullets. Speed is busted dude. We are all saying the same thing: "if you think otherwise, you haven played enough at the slowest and highest speeds you can achieve"

[paper vector]

the speed is unrelated to the sharpness of turns you can make. but I have played a fair bit on builds optimised for speed

[meager cypress]

As support, my only hope vs sniper glints is to rain ultimax down on them and hope they fuck off not knowing how pathetic it is at long range, you aren't going to make it to cover alive as a marshmellow man

[paper vector]

My most commonly played thing is decent speed assault, used to run SMG medic a lot though

[meager cypress]

you can usually rain close enough that they hide for a few seconds

[clear maple]

And that's only if they're using a scope with glint

Medium scopes having no sway or glint is certainly one of the balancing decisions of all time

[meager cypress]

yep

[paper vector]

snipers are annoying on wakistan since the map change, as they can hit you way more easily now. haven't really noticed issues on other maps with them

[snow python]

No, you're an idiot.
Skills you use playing support:
Shot placement, build to advance so you don't waste your armour, and knowing when to turtle and when to advance.

Assault skills:
Zoom, dip dodge dive duck dodge.
Shot placement, climb fast, jump high.

[celest kraken]

Yes, but you have a very 1d thinking if you think sharpness is what makes people hard to hit. Its sharp turns combined with distance (which means sharp turns made at high speed, or in other words a very high change in acceleration, or in even other words: jerk)

[meager cypress]

wakistan would be easier to defend against snipers if the build system didn't snap so aggressively so you can actually put sandbags up on the sides of the bridge to block them

[paper vector]

I don't, but that's the term you used so I argued with that

well, sharpness of movement is a very important factor of course

[clear maple]

That'd actually be amazing, I usually just spam smokes

[paper vector]

but I wouldn't deny that speed helps a fair amount

[meager cypress]

the build system also needs to snap at max range instead of showing you a red outline, yes I know I cant build a mile away I shoudn't have to find the exact pixel to build at you asshole

[celest kraken]

Lets say im moving so slowly as to be near stationary and then make a sharp 90 degree turn. Am i any harder to hit?

clearly it is the speed that is a major (nearly overwhelming in fact) factor

[meager cypress]

if you can't tell I think the build system is great and id love to use it more if it didn't get me killed so much lol

[paper vector]

Both. you could be 10x as fast but doing the same thing with inertia, it would lead to you idling in midair

[clear maple]

Building is really frustrating, I can't understand how people say they "just fortnite up a whole bunker in 3 seconds"

Like bro I need whatever you're taking

[celest kraken]

Man, go play that voxel mode for even more frustration. That shit sucks

[meager cypress]

people have figured out that ive you build an overhead T bunker and someone just shoots at it a little bit the top part vanishes and you just die

[snow python]

I can do one in about 10 to 20 seconds depending on how complicated I'm making it. Defending one of thos tunnels on Valley C point. About 15. A broken building bunker, 10.

[celest kraken]

My first experience i went "hmmm, i bet support is great in this mode because i can make a really safe bunker with good sightlines i can mow people down from!"

then a tank deleted a 5m radius circle out of my bunker. Then the second tank deleted the other half and took me with it.

then those two tanks went and flattened to entire map all on their own. There is no point in building because if you try it will just get instantly deleted

It is too flat and too big of a map. Recon and tanks dominate 😩

Foolish ne for thinking a mode featuring building would allow a defensive class like support to shine

[paper vector]

with an LMG you can tear through people's cover though, so that's something

[meager cypress]

tanks are interesting when dynamic stuff happens like it rolling down a street and setting up a hardpoint you have to fight around
tanks in reality just snipe and its bullshit

[celest kraken]

Bro, fucking recon ONE SHOTS the cover

[meager cypress]

you guys need to realise that this chucklehead is either arguing in bad faith or just wants attention, stop engaging XD

[celest kraken]

You need to sit still and shit out dozens of bullets to chew through what was built meanwhile recon can lean and shoot and the lean back slowly and safely chipping away

[celest kraken]

No, i think he just doesnt play the game

[paper vector]

have to wait to shoot them though

[meager cypress]

see second part of my sentence

[celest kraken]

Now i know you havent played that mode

"Oh, you have to wait to shoot as recon" he says as if that isnt actually a benefit because you can sit in cover until ready to take the next shot

[paper vector]

I play the game for like 2-3 hours a day

[paper vector]

yeah but they can rebuild it instantly

I haven't played recon in that mode though

[opal pecan]

There is a difference between deliberately picking counter and getting rnged to death, we signed up for a shooter game not an online casino

[meager cypress]

how do you think cone fire works

[meager salmon]

speaking of cones; i want shaped charges

[opal pecan]

HEAT is supposed to be shaped charge

It’s now HE

[sweet sinew]

To whoever said about armor blocking aim punch earlier, it already does. Ever heard the massive dink from your helmet getting blown off but took no damage or flinch?

Obs this doesn't mean shit when your armors "used up" (stupid mechanic)

Make it a flat damage reduction per shot, then give weapons buffs against that reduction based on propensity to defeat armor

Like a M200 anti-material rifle negates all armor damage reduction (as an example, not asking for this to be implemented)

Exo armor should laugh at SMGs (as long as they hit armored sections of the model)

[meager salmon]

pretty much this^

because imo the only viable alternative is bringing SMG damage WAY down relative to ARs to get a similar effect

[past raft]

yeah, i believe its because the flinch is scaled off the damage you take now. So if exo for example blocks 95% of the damage you take from a shot. You only feel the 5% damage effects. And damage recieved from armor does not count as character damage. This works the same way as assist values where I am sure you've noticed sometimes you get ridiculously low assist numbers like +5 or +4 even though you shot the guy 2 to 3 times. Only the damage you did to the character counted towards the assist, damage to armor does not count.

[sweet sinew]

Yea, I'm aware, just re-iterating the point someone mentioned earlier that armor already prevents aim punch

[meager cypress]

you can google literally hundreds of videos of people self testing body armor, it would certainly help prevent "aim punch" as long as it isn't the corner case of being shot in the head

[opal pecan]

not sure why this dude literally can’t read

[woven fossil]

I wish support (and all classes rlly) had a better way of tracking their gadgets.
Start of a round you can set up 4 trophies, mines, and claymores as passive defenses.

You'll know about the explosives killing but zero idea if a trophy is ever doing its job.

Idk if having actual counters on screen would be OP. Knowing if your mines get shot out. But it'd be nice to have more intel.

[heavy sage]

grenade destroyed should def give xp

and the trophy should destroy rockets idk why it doesn't right now

[celest kraken]

frugis backrooms xp farm time

i agree though, but i feel like the trophy is a bandaid solution

[heavy sage]

grenade throwing back should probably be implemented but you can only throw it back if you are looking at the grenade that way people can't just spam the keybind even if they don't see the grande

[snow python]

I literally spent 5 minutes staring at it the first time to make sure I didn't just place down something useless

[royal hare]

this and i dont think it should destroy your own nades. support needs more ways to get exp.

[heavy sage]

ONG

If destroying teammates nades is the worst thing ever

It makes 0 sense

[opal pecan]

grenade doesn’t have IFF

[sweet sinew]

Destroying rockets would be based and actually make it usable

[heavy sage]

This game isn't real life and balance is better than realism

[opal pecan]

You should be thankful they don’t have insane radius, you can still nade out at high angles

The phrase is banned in the thread but I think you know where I’m going

[paper vector]

it means you can't hunker down and grenade spam with impunity

it gives you what is basically a hiding place where there is no fire but you can leave this to throw them back. Tactical flexibility

[heavy sage]

it destroying other teammates grenades means you can pretty easily sabotage people

it wouldn't be an issue if it only destroyed the grenades of the person who placed it (plus enemies of course)

[celest kraken]

i hate when i place it and save everyones life but then my team goes and wastes all their nades without realizing it

[meager cypress]

team mates tend to throw tantrums when it blocks their grenades, they want kills they dont want to live

[opal pecan]

people pay no attention to their surroundings

[clear maple]

Blocking rockets with the trophy would be amazing. Especially considering how RPGs are the "fuck everything" gun. Peek for a tenth of a second?

"The missile knows where it is at all times..."

[grim fog]

....
Added RPG to support?

[meager cypress]

I dont know what it would look like if it wasn't ITTS, but somehow making support more effective vs heli's would give them another niche to fill that isn't just getting mowed down by good pilots over and over

[paper vector]

LMGs are good for helis… but they could be better

[meager cypress]

LMG's hover between being good if you can hit heli's to being laughable against decent pilots that are varying their speed direction and distance

[calm swallow]

When the new MG3 comes around, I’m sure it’ll be the new de facto fly swatter, that is, if it has the ridiculous rate of fire that some real MG3s had.

1,000-1,200 RPM 😈

[opal pecan]

rank 200 to use

[calm swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/fnaf-fnaf-memes-fnaf2-rock-eyebrows-gif-23156722

[inner monolith]

Yes, it would be silly to make trophy differentiate for both "logic" and game balance reasons. HOWEVER, it still feels bad to use when it just deletes all grenades in its proximity.

IMO one solution would be to make it destroy only projectiles coming into it's AoE and changing it from a full dome to something like a circular plane above it, such that you can still throw grenades under it and it will block those lobbed at you. But it will not block e.g. if an enemy does a low throw at you. So it should still be effective in places like Waki bridge without becoming the superior choice for every situation.

[celest kraken]

it becoming a plane above it instead of a dome would synergize with encouraging fortification. you would want to build sandbags and walls to block enemies from throwing grenades under the area it covers

[thorny zodiac]

In a game where speed is super important and defense play is not rewarded I feel like support is just left out. Even if you're holding down a point due to lack of suppression mechanics someone peaking out of a corner is going to beam the fuck out of you. I need support needs dedicated structures to build instead of doing the weirdest of shit with the buildables to make a ghetto bunker. On top of that, just like with engineer, I think support need extra exp for playing defensively even if Oki hates doing objectives

[spark musk]

hot take
realism is second to fun

i dont care if grenades IRL dont have IFF tags
is it fun when your teammate places down a trophy trying to help and it zapy zaps your 'friendly' grenade that doesnt even do friendly fire damage in the first place?

no
no its not
it feels like griefing when the assault teammate tries to help the slow chunky boy and place down a trophy thinking hes helping
and suddenly 33% of the reason to play support is just 'do not pass go, do not collect $200' in like an 8 meter unmarked zone

[heavy sage]

completely agree

[sweet sinew]

As someone who spent 10 minutes camped in the tunnel under C on valley with 10 other teammates and two trophies setup, I can see why it also zaps friendly grenades.

It was hard enough to dislodge us from this location, if we'd been able to throw grenades out it would have been almost impossible, so I get why it does both

[meager cypress]

wtb more chopper hitrate/velocity(?)

[woven fossil]

Support just straight up doesnt fill a role. It used to, landmines. But that was removed.

Support probably should be the class with superior firepower and/or defense at the cost of speed. But the best support guns are still weaker than most automatics, and the defense is laughably low.

[sweet sinew]

Mild disagree, consistent midrange firepower to keep heads down is a role, even if it's a bit ineffective currently

I play it for different reasons than I play assault

It does feel outclassed by others though

I know situations where nothing other than 100rnds of automatic fire would suffice, but they aren't as common as they should be

[woven fossil]

I rarely use more than 50 in a row even fighting a vehicle.

[sweet sinew]

The fact that LMGs suck against softskin vehicles is very frustrating

[woven fossil]

just hope that when more guns get added, we get one thats actually powerful and borderline OP, like every other weapon class has one.

except dmr ig

[sweet sinew]

M60 plz

[opal pecan]

make LMG deal emotional damage to enemy

[sweet sinew]

Give me big boy gun, make it eat helicopters

[woven fossil]

LMGs should probably just have insane damage against vehicles and enemy fortifications. Spraying their heads barely works so break their defenses.

or... bullet penetration on soft body hits.

[opal pecan]

Suppression effect might need a revisit

[sweet sinew]

Overpen on unarmoured targets 👌

[woven fossil]

srsly I do think all snipers and lmgs should have collaterals

[celest kraken]

or just suppression really.

i will keep shilling this, implement suppression as something akin to a very jerky scope sway (but on all scopes) that scales with how hard the target is suppressed

[sweet sinew]

M200 joining enemy hands in matrimony

[opal pecan]

Currently it feels like whoever I’m suppressing can still calmly aim at me and two tap me with scar h

[celest kraken]

because they can

[sweet sinew]

Arma-style isn't bad, blacking out the corner of the screen and making it pulse when rounds fly nearby

Doesn't mess with aim but sure is distracting

[dusty plinth]

That's partially the role but it's a also a common misconception that Automatic Riflemen's primary goal is to keep heads down. Suppressive fire is only part of the LMG's and LMG wielder's purpose, other notions include inflicting casualties, destroying enemy equipment, and denying the enemy freedom of movement and action, which are things LMG's tend to fail at in this game.

[opal pecan]

Lmg are just worse ar

[woven fossil]

yeah lmgs are laughably bad in scenarios where they should be good. Especially yknow, the bipod.

[sweet sinew]

Yea, I don't think those are the LMGs fault though, that's mostly due to other game mechanics

See: squad spawning

[celest kraken]

honestly, if suppression chunked peoples movement speed then i could see lmgs becoming pretty popular 🤔

[dusty plinth]

Mixture of both, LMG's having lower armor penetration than most assault rifles for the sake of "balance" hinder it from being effective at destroying equipment, though arguably and one can argue that the lack of suppression mechanics allows Meta Medics to simply pull off exaggerated evasive maneuvers to out gun LMG's at range.

[opal pecan]

Lmg got outgunned anyrange lbr

[sweet sinew]

LMGs are a very defensive weapon in a game that doesn't reward defense

You need a corridor of fire to give someone no avenue

[celest kraken]

pretty much my conclusion too. you can get some decent use out of them by finding power positions and ambushing enemies but its very hard to pull off with consistency

[sweet sinew]

They work very well on Frugis due to this

The only time I've ever killed 5 people in one go was with a LMG, hitting people behind a sandbag from the side and just rinsing them

[opal pecan]

Im surprised you didn’t get rpged out of existence doing that

Oh btw another complaint about those sandbags: why does the one with two windows, when building another on top, seals the windows

It makes no freakin sense

[sweet sinew]

Good positioning, right place at the right time

[dusty plinth]

I feel it's also worth mentioning that there are certain statistics that should be realistically accurate where as other's admittedly might break game balance; an example is the fact that SMG's in the game have statistically accurate effective firing ranges which is generally around 50 meters, where as just about every other weapon doesn't maintain the same consistency.

These circumstances are what make SMG's too effective in comparison to other weapons but at the same time if we buff the other weapons to maintain realistic effective firing ranges they might also break game balancing.

[opal pecan]

how much “realism” does a game need?

[dusty plinth]

Enough that it's balanced relative to the scale of the game; CoD for example having realistic effective firing ranges wouldn't make any sense because there would literally be no reason to not use SMG's.

[celest kraken]

all of it 😈

if im not afraid of a bullet flying out of my monitor and killing me irl then the game isnt realistic enough
||this is a joke guys||

[opal pecan]

I don’t think I can be resurrected if there’s a bullet in my head or got exploded by a tank shell

[dusty plinth]

An example however which could benefit from realism and unrealism is BTK as discussed in the other chat; there's no way to accurately decipher how many bullets it takes to kill someone as it's rarely even consistent, but at the same time we have an idea of how lethal each calibre is meant to be which is why 7.62-based weapons generally have higher damage values than 5.56-based weapons in games.

[celest kraken]

i toyed with the idea once of a game where bullets didnt do damage but instead had % chances to just straight up kill you depending on where they hit, the range, and what size they were

then we can use the actual lethality data for various calibers 😈

[dusty plinth]

Does Battlebit only differentiate head vs. body shots or does it also differentiate head, upper chest, torso, and limbs when it comes to BTK?

Because honestly, more games need to do that; it rewards for more skilled players.

[celest kraken]

i been told it only does body and head but idk myself ¯_(ツ)_/¯

i really dont notice because i only ever aim for the chest (get fucked lean spammers)

[dusty plinth]

Ironically CoD is one of the only shooters to differentiate beyond just head and body.

[dusty plinth]

I guess technically speaking body armor is a differentiating factor.

[celest kraken]

yea, outside of being told to aim at the legs on support players i havent really heard any talk about different damage between various locations

[dusty plinth]

It's ironic though because that would technically mean it would be easier to kill someone with Heavy and Exo armor by shooting them in the leg or arm then in the chest if body shots are consistant.

[clear maple]

It is, people have been going for it when they can

It's one of the reasons exo and heavy aren't good. Aside from the fact they're just slow as a snail

I pray and pray suppression never comes to the game. Someone said "realism is second to fun" and I agree wholeheartedly. Suppression is never fun. Anyone else play Battlefield 1? Or 3?

It doesn't have a place in this game, the devs have said no.

And this is coming from someone who has played the LMG class whenever there is one.

LMGs/LSGs are impossible to balance in online shooters because they rely on people being afraid for their life while someone lays down hate. And people just aren't afraid in video games because they can respawn

[dry bobcat]

Is getting 1-shot by a hidden sniper "fun"? Is getting beamed by an SMG faster than you can react fun? Is getting flashbanged or grenaded fun?

What do you people consider fun, if you think that suppression isn't fun?

[celest kraken]

Idk man, i dont mind getting 1shot by a sniper. Generally doesnt happen often and its usually my fault

I wouldnt describe it as fun (is dying usually fun?) but it isnt exactly "unfun"

[woven fossil]

Exo helmets should absolutely not get 1tapped by any bullet. Buff its armor or nerf the m200.

[clear maple]

I'd rather just get kills than suppress. Every other support should feel that way.

Suppression is a bandaid fix for support weapons being ridiculously inaccurate and unwieldy

The impact of straight up killing someone and putting them through a respawn timer is greater than "keeping their head down"

[celest kraken]

"Suppression is never fun" is the sort of broad sweeping unuanced sort of statements i love seeing in feedback. Especially because all it takes is a single person to counter this

[celest kraken]

Respawn timer is 8 seconds. If i keep them down for more than 8 seconds then i have done more tjan just killing them

[dry bobcat]

Okay, you have a preference on how you'd like to play, which is direct kills. That's your opinion and that's fine. My opinion is that I'd like to suppress the enemy, so long as the devs insist on lmgs being as inaccurate as they are.

[celest kraken]

Give me that 600m+ effective ranges for lmgs and i will consider supression unnecessary

[clear maple]

So does every class get suppression then?

[woven fossil]

Yes. only above 30 shots fired per mag.

[clear maple]

So as a support I'd have to spend a third of my m249 mag to suppress?

When 4-6 bullets direct would kill?

Or does support get a modifier?

[woven fossil]

buddy that was a joke

[clear maple]

Not a good one, ig

I digress. I'm sharing my personal feedback in the feedback channel so it can be considered. There's no "counter", it's not an argument.

I feel it. Support weapons are undertuned and handicapped. They should be more accurate. They should have more range. I shouldn't need to wrangle a bear everytime I pull the trigger. Medium scopes should be viable on most automatic weapons. Bipods shouldn't be a straight up wasted attachment.

Everytime I play another game like PS2 or battlefield I'm reminded of how fun it is to be a heavy gunner. And then I play BBR and I'm sad bc support has no effective role and a low amount of meaningful impact on the game.

[calm swallow]

it's because the guns are marginal

[woven fossil]

Honestly an LMG with a scope and bipod should be insanely deadly at 150m. at lleeasstt

Like straight laserbeam of death.

[weary garden]

support should just have straight firepower instead of armor

if suppression is too milsim, give the tryhard medics something to hide from

[woven fossil]

Yeah support should be giving up speed for mega firepower and/or mega defense. Not a few extra bullets

[weary garden]

I know this is a funny joke but yes the high level phantom forces guys would straight up prefer getting directly killed than just debuffed

Esp if it means less armor to deal with

funnily enough this would make the game even more milsim, but it's a moot point to them

[clear maple]

I actually kinda like the idea of being able to shoot buildings apart. It's not realistic but it'd be fun

More fun than cqc night maps with rpg spam at least

[weary garden]

Should really be relegated to RPG/assault grenade launcher

leave it limited enough bc as fun as it would be it'd also be cheesy

maybe extra buildable damage

but buildings should feel like a safety against gunfire

[clear maple]

Absolutely

[weary garden]

Again though, I'd much rather support gets more guncentric stuff

like

a tank class just don't work

I'd take heavy runspeed and ads penalties to be rambo

not to take extra shots in a .3 ttk game

[clear maple]

Preach 🙌

Is there cone of fire bloom in this game? Or is accuracy more or less unaffected by sustained fire?

[weary garden]

don't quote me but I want to say it's unaffected

only exception is miniguns

[clear maple]

Interesting

[celest kraken]

i been playing a lot with the bipod lately to try and be more informed on how exactly bad it is.

honestly the biggest issues with the bipods is actually how jank it is to have them deployed. so many windows are shaped such that you have no more than a like 10 degree angle looking left or right or up and down

[weary garden]

the 60 downsides doesn't help either

[celest kraken]

like, go and try the bipods out yourselves. pretty much find any window with it equiped and just try and use the bipod from the window. its so fucking bad that sometimes the recoil of the goddamn gun shifts the model enough that the bipod undeployes even with me keeping it within that narrow range of "not too far up or down or left or right"

[weary garden]

I mean if oki added a locking system I feel like the only difference would be that your gun doesn't move farther down/left/right

[clear maple]

I wonder if just broadening the angle that the bipod works at would fix it

Expanding the tolerance

[weary garden]

from what I've seen it's based literally on the weapon model

it'll put 2 sticks below your gun and as long as the ends of the sticks touch terrain you're good to go

if your weapon model moves from the game's attempt to not clip weapons through the ground then bye bye bipod bonus

[celest kraken]

and bipods come out where the grips are which means generally longer guns have wider angles. part of the problem with the m249 is you have a hard time getting close enough to things for the bipod to actually deploy

battlebit bipods come out where his hand is instead of where it is in this picture

[weary garden]

I mean would moving it help or make it more jank

genuinely don't know

[celest kraken]

it would probably be a bit of both to be honest. moving it would allow you to have wider angles with it still deployed, but you would need to be just the right distance or else it slips off to the front or back of whatever you are trying to use it on

im actually going to go test a few guns in polygon... one moment

m249 bipod angles up and down (and weird deadzone?)

[clear maple]

Huh, that's a really weird spot for a bipod.

[celest kraken]

l96 for comparison, you literally can NOT get it to deploy on this

msr angle is nutty for looking down because the bipod position is so far forwards, but looking up is worse for the same reason

like, this is just the funky consequence of basing the game bipod off of the weapon model. im not exactly opposed to it but it really makes it feel like im fighting with the game to get it where i want with how it is currently handled

m249 left and right bipod limits

contrast with msr where the bipod being placed further forwards gets you about 10 more degrees left and right

windows really show off how significant this is in practice, and these windows are actually a pretty good height compared to most

[woven fossil]

This is very much inaccurate but there is indeed a dead zone on the left and right.

[celest kraken]

literally cant get the m249 to deploy here

middle window

when shooting here the recoil actually shifts the gun enough to undeploy the bipod!

this window

this should probably get posted into attachments too...

whoah wait, after fucking around a bit i think the bipod position actually changes based on scope too

mk20 with acog and with irons

m249 with acog

using a medium scope gets you about 10 more degrees of bipod use in either direction!

msr with medium scope has a fucking 110 degrees of bipod use!

[celest kraken]

bro, i finally went back and it just clicked for me. we might as well just be using the fucking box mag to stabalize our gun!

[remote bridge]

shame that for all of this, bipods still give more recoil than not having one

making them useless

[celest kraken]

its actually slightly better than a vert grip

so... pointless

like, i have been using them just to force myself to be more informed about how... not practical they are

the worst part about bipods isnt even the nerf to your stats. it is actually that your gun's handling will change completely unexpectedly while shooting. look too far left or right or up or down or shoot on a funky surface and you go from deployed recoil to undeployed recoil and it just sends your shots everywhere without you expecting it

[remote bridge]

Yeah very fun to deal with hahaha

[celest kraken]

it is very annoying to use a gun that will switch from laser beam to fire hose when you least expect it

[weary garden]

would having an invisible bipod that just runs all along the bottom of the gun be good or bad

or is that too much of a bandaid quick fix

[celest kraken]

on one hand, i actually mentioned in other threads that having guns that are otherwise the same but have different models could actually still be a neat way to balance them. you could do something like this with bipods... i think its cool that it matches the model but the problem that comes with this is how unpredictable it is to use because of this

[weary garden]

ehhh not a fan

[celest kraken]

yea, with bipods i have to say i think i prefer them being reliable than "model accurate"

[weary garden]

I legit don't think it'd be a good balance metric period

too niche

[celest kraken]

i mean i agree, i dont think it fits battlebit. i was more speaking generally that it could be a thing to differentiate otherwise similar weapons

[dry bobcat]

One 'invisible' bipod that extends from a set distance in front of the player, no matter the weapon, is all there should be.
Oki messed up. Good job @celest kraken !

[weary garden]

I will bring it up

[celest kraken]

oh yea, more bipod fuckery

[dry bobcat]

Perfect for when people are trying to storm your castle and you have an M249. They could have used that at Minas Tirith

[woven fossil]

Whats the point of exo armor if you bleed in 1 shot.

[weary garden]

You actually bleed in 2 shots

40 HP is the bleed threshold

[woven fossil]

not for all guns.

[weary garden]

It is

[woven fossil]

snipers?

[weary garden]

unless you' re taking 60+ damage

ok well yea

that's 60+ damage

more since they have that reverse falloff

[woven fossil]

just annoying

youre the slowest and easiest person to snipe and even a non headshot can slow you down and force a bandage

[weary garden]

yea, that's an arm hitbox issue imo

[woven fossil]

good thing we have these big useful shoulderpads lol

[weary garden]

because I don't think you do enough damage to go through exo and hit 40HP

[weary garden]

ikr

[royal hare]

iirc were getting M60, MG3 and RPK-16

[weary garden]

beltfeds apparently need to be reworked animation wise or smthn so those may take longer

just fyi

[woven fossil]

give me my aug hbar, let me do 20 larmor

[weary garden]

prolly coming first

Along with RPK

and then a pistol and 2 rifles to do another set of 5

AEK and F2000 or that chinese SMG, and m93r based on the teasers we've had

[royal hare]

which?

[calm swallow]

I hope I'm high enough level when those come out to be able to use them right off the hop without needing to do anything aside from equip them.

[royal hare]

they should be low/mid point guns since the level spacing for them is horrendous

[calm swallow]

I really hope the MG3 is the high RPM model, I want to feel like I'm mowing peope down

[royal hare]

yeah a high rpm lmg would be nice

[calm swallow]

maybe 850-1000 rpm

[royal hare]

that would be good imo

[opal pecan]

As long as it’s not intentionally reduced to pea damage “for balance”…

[weary garden]

Define pea famage

Like the vector?

Or we going lower

[opal pecan]

I’m thinking glock18 level of pea

[inner monolith]

Now we're talking

[meager cypress]

tbh
I don't mind doing basically no damage if the bullet volume is there lol

as long as it feels like I should be screaming with my hair on fire while I shoot it

but then the capacity and low recoil would have to be there, and the cone would have to be big to make it not silly op

[inner monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-skull-rock-on-rock-and-roll-on-fire-gif-14339518

[meager cypress]

I also wouldn't mind a super nasty mg that was basically useless unless deployed with its built in bipod or somesuch

[calm swallow]

that's more along the lines of what I was thinking

Low to medium damage, with high recoil & high fire rate (Think scorpion levels of recoil), but be able to tame it with a bipod.

[dusty plinth]

IMO MMG’s should be handled differently than LMG’s, maybe make it so that in exchange for 40 DPS @ 1000 RPM, you can only fully-ADS while crouching or prone, while moving you’ll have a slightly more zoomed in hip fire mode when pressing your ADS key-bind which tightens spread while standing.

[calm swallow]

I love the ultimax.

[opal pecan]

First shot knockback off the chart lol

[celest kraken]

first shot concussion.

[calm swallow]

first shot black hole recoil

[indigo sundial]

I would like to suggest that the ammo box, both heavy and light, does not disappear after being thrown on the ground (or else it disappears after being thrown another one in its place, using the same claymore and Anti Personnel Mine system, limiting only 2 boxes on the floor) or else leave it disappear after 30s that the player died, because I think this class is one of the most difficult to earn points and also due to the slowness of the character, which in my opinion is balanced. What do you guys think?

[opal pecan]

why should people pick your ammo up when they can just respawn or call in an air drop?

[spark musk]

i just want AoE automatic ammo refilling on the things
ive kind of accepted that restocking the other things (equiptment, rpgs, nades) via AoE might be stupid it also might not

but atleast ammo should be AoE and it should be free

[royal hare]

id like more points for actually supporting. people would rather spam nades from a distance than use smokes to push on the point. havent seen trophys lately cause they eat both sides nades and dont give points. even points for calling in a supply drop and people using it. one of my wishes would be to reinforce walls so i could hunker down in a building.

[inner monolith]

Air drops cost squad points and respawning cost tickets. The question, of course, is why would someone care about wasting the team's tickets and there actually isn't a reason to, so the larger question is why have a system that assumes people would care about teammates when no other mechanic in the game gives you a reason to.

[sweet sinew]

It would be nice if there was a way to call for ammo, we sort of have that with medics being able to see if people are hurt. It would be nice to have a way to basically flag you'd like ammo with a 3D marker over your head that anyone with an ammo box equipped can see

Relying on voice is difficult especially on euro servers because of the vast array of languages

[royal hare]

and people spamming music and soundbites

[celest kraken]

that really common on eu? seems somewhat uncommon on US servers. like yea it happens but its only like 1% of players or so doing it

[royal hare]

everygame ive been in the last couple days has had a few people doing it the whole game

one was the Wii sound on repeat super loud

[sweet sinew]

Ultra common, eastern Europeans and Nordic countries have a hot-dipped meme culture that's about 10 years out of date, it's like an amazing meme time capsule

I had some guy blasting caramel dansen as we raced towards the front line

[celest kraken]

based

[sweet sinew]

In short, knowing who does/doesn't need ammo is difficult

[royal hare]

even when someone says they need ammo its hard to find who they are in a firefight

[sweet sinew]

I mean I just chuck it on the ground, but I only have two of them and I try to die as little as possible

[royal hare]

i just throw them on snipers

[inner monolith]

Yea they usually can use both the ammo and the bandages and are in spots where other passing teammates stop by for cover

[vestal lotus]

To buff support, let support build things without using the squad points, instead give the support a set amount of concrete to use up.

Building cover is actually fucking OP in this game, if support could build better fortifications and cover it would be more useful.

Too often its the start of the round and the squad doesnt have points, so you cant build. Rendering the supports class advantage useless for 1/2 of the match

Imagine if support players role would be for example in rush 32v32, to build nice cover on prevalent fight areas. Take tensatown, if you blow a hole into a second story building, then build a concrete barricade, i guarantee you you can take out 3-4 players because your cover is so good and people dont expect this

I always wanna use more cover but never have enough squad points its frustrating

[inner monolith]

Yeah I think pretty much everyone on here agrees the support's fortification capabilities need to be improved. Because not only do you need squad points, this also means you need a non-selfish leader that will kick you out for using the points.

[vestal lotus]

If good support players relied on good map knowledge and game sense, and they were able to build lets say around 10 concrete barriers for each life, they could make a huge difference in fights without needing to compete with the cracked speed of a medic

[inner monolith]

Plus all the fixes to fortifications themselves mentioned in the respective thread, namely not letting enemies just silently deconstruct your stuff.

[vestal lotus]

Even as a medic player i started using concrete barricades and i think its THE MOST SLEPT ON FEATURE in the game.

Creating cover in a game like this is so fucking powerful, especially since going prone is so fast. If you just place a barrier before peeking a corner, you can even take out 5 people that are looking at you, because cover that lets you prone behind it is powerful as fuck in this game

And nobody uses it ever, i think the build menu needs its own shortcut too instead of navigating all the way through the squad leader menu.

Why not let us bind specific structure types to different keys so we can really lvl up our gameplay with fast decion making and placing the right cover when needed

[celest kraken]

hey wait a moment, we used to have this with 20 claymores per life 🤔

[inner monolith]

Yepyepyep. IMO the limit should be placed to at least as many as you can carry at any given time. Which currently amounts to a single one more... could use a buff to 6 tho. >.>

[vestal lotus]

Yeah except barriers arent going to kill anybody, and everyone carries c4 so i dont think it would be a problem

[royal hare]

yeah my build menu is bound to my ping key so when i try to build i cant position the structure

[opal pecan]

imo it would've been fine if they just despawn after death

it was a problem cuz they were put and forget

very low effort

[celest kraken]

AP mines did and they literally were never touched because it made them worthless. if we had a longer life expectancy in this game then maybe but you cant expect to live long enough for your mines to end up used. it also forced a very cautious playstyle where you actively avoided combat just so you wouldnt have your work undone

[calm swallow]

Make supplying friendlies not suck. I should be able to hand out ammo instead of place a box on the ground and pray other people stop what they’re doing and take the time to use it.

Also fix bipod.

[gilded canopy]

This, the solution is so fucking easy and i really wonder why it wasnt like this in the first place

Why make 2 different types of systems for the medic and the support when they do the same job?

[gilded canopy]

This would be top tier, popping a sandwall like fortnite would be really helpful in rushing and aiding the team

[snow python]

medics can drop their bag on the ground for people to use, but it's pretty much pointless since most people don't realize it is there

[gilded canopy]

Yeah and thats fine, its a cool mechanic to have in, maybe medic bags could resupply heals as well if dropped

What i was thinking was

On hand ammo box can supply ammo like the medic bag heals

On ground ammo box is the same as it is right now

Medic bag on gound can supply bandages and costs more than support to buy (to balance the fact that you literally are an entire hospital as a class idk)

[calm swallow]

Sooo… in short:

1. Fix Bipod
2. Tweak the way ammo resupplying works to make it more friendly to the person giving and receiving supplies
3. Add the other guns that have been mentioned previously
4. Re-evaluate support after, and see if those changes improve the QoL enough to make support not feel UP.

At this time, I don’t believe there is singular reason that makes support not-so-great. It’s a multitude of small issues (some of them worse than others) that’s causing the issues.

[gilded canopy]

Ngl i would also make the aim downsights better, they fucking nerfed the support to hell

You run slow, you have the most recoil of every class, you gain the lowest amount of XP

You also have to be slower aiming?, in a game with fast TTK??????

Im just venting at this point tho dont mind me XD

[opal pecan]

fix bipod... reminded of the HLL "fix bipod" thread

seems like no game can get bipod right ever

[calm swallow]

Having played every class a decent amount, it just comes down to play style. If I swap from SMG medic to support and try to play support the same way I was just playing medic, I get dumped on.

Taking the time to slow down and assess surroundings (and also pre-aiming where I believe enemies will travel), has netted me with more points and kills.

Unfortunately you’re forced into that sort of play style based on the class/weapon stats. But it’s not necessarily a bad style, just different from the run and gun most people enjoy.

I have wracked up 10-15 man killfeeds from a few grenades and a good defensible position with the ultimax.

[calm swallow]

I think battlefield comes the closest with theirs, though it’s not perfect either.

[gilded canopy]

Im main support in every battlefield-style game dfsadfsdfsafds

Its amazing how they fucked up this much in this game, and such a shame because i really love it when playing any other class :s

[calm swallow]

I believe I have an OK amount of time as support. https://i.imgur.com/Uh6SXyY.png

[gilded canopy]

d a m n

this resumes the entire issue with the class balancing in the game rn

[snow python]

When I have a good or useful squad leader I play support, if not I play engineer

I love the class but when the game doesn't even accomodate you playing the class why should I?

I'm so tired of chasing automated waypoints, I'm so tired of getting to an objective, fight stragglers for a few minutes if I am lucky, then chase to the next objective. It reminds me of the cylcing zergs from Guild wars 2.

[woven fossil]

Support should be a class that trades speed for defense and/or firepower. Buff the armor or guns or both but this aint working the way it is right now.

[snow python]

Squads need a serious overhaul at this point, since it's detrimental to your own fun to even play this class half the time.

[spark musk]

kind of everything needs a serious overhaul at this point
weapons as a whole
equipment selection
squads as a whole
the classes as a whole
vehicles

[woven fossil]

Support also needs way more ways to earn XP. Its nearly impossible to top the leaderboard without spamming frags down wakistan bridge.
-Trophy xp for destroying enemy nades
-XP for fortifying an objective marked for defense by squad leader
-XP boost if squadmates use your ammo kit
-XP boost for support class when killing on defense obj
just a few ideas

[inner monolith]

So I won't oppose XP gain, because sure why not, but if all the actual issues are not addresses first, I will not be having any more fun just because I see some numbers ticking at the bottom of my screen more often. :/

[grave rivet]

tbh I feel like if you replenish a teammates supplies you should get a percentage of their xp like how you do when transporting teammates. It makes sense. Resupplying them allows them to fight longer and stay alive.

like you resupply a teammates gernade and they get 4 kills with that gernade. Why shouldn't you be rewarded too? They wouldnt have had that gernade in the first place without you.

[paper vector]

that makes sense

[grave rivet]

same with ammo, bandages so on. Without you they wouldnt have had that kill or health ,etc

Just put like a xp cap or time limit of 10 minutes like transport xp

[vestal lotus]

Nerf giving supoort so many grenades.

No class should ever have more than 2 frag grenades at any given time. NOBODY in this game enjoys grenade spam and it doesnt add any skill to the gameplay. Literally just makes it frustrating because low skill support players can throw fucking 24 grenades

[paper vector]

high gadget capacity is a part of being big and slow

can't really remove that

it is why they added trophy systems

[snow python]

I can agree with Jasper, but I also understand how it happens as well.

[calm swallow]

I admit, I have used the 4 grenades to my advantage before, throwing them into an enemy infested treeline (especially some areas of district), and have racked up 4+ kills. I think once I killed 8 or 9 with two grenades.

[livid carbon]

what else has support tho? big effing guns? thiccc armor? those 2 things slow you down like crazy, you are already at a disadvantage compared to everybody else why take away the seemingly only effective way of utilizing the class when no other buffs are in sight

[weary garden]

We'll get buffs eventually

and soon eventually not soonTM

But before any buffs support seriously needs to be defined

Armor is unpopular, so what about guns and building?

make them the heavier cousin of assault

or we can make them the ultimate fob builder, give them more ways to earn and use squad points

or we can just make them really good at stocking up explosives

But then a big heavy gun that shreds you theoretically sounds as popular to fight against as a big beefy tank

so far on the list of things considered is limb damage resist, buffing armor speed and making bipods low penalty and easy to use, but about as useful as they are now

but then on top of that what else is worth talking about

[calm swallow]

I think they should start with fixing bipod and making it easier to resupply friendlies.

[gilded canopy]

Im playing rn with head armor and no chest armor and tbh, support feels awesome this way

You are beefy, but only for like... 1 second, that is the right ammount of time to react and do something

I still think support needs a lot... A LOT of fixing, mostly related to giving ammo and movement being clunky

[livid carbon]

when support enjoyers finally get that mg3