Flinch / Aim Punch - Feedback

[heavy seal]

Put your feedback on Flinch / Aim Punch.

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'
• No video's - (Testing video's in the Polygon are fine)

[peak gulch]

Flinching is both good for immersion but bad for gameplay, generally the person who gets the first hit or two will generally win as the other person's screen is knocked around, hampering return fire. This is especially so for very high fire rate weapons.

Changing flinch severity based on weapon caliber might even this gap up somewhat, with pistol calibers flinching less than rifle, etcetc.

I don't think flinching should be removed, if you get the drop on someone you should have an advantage in the fight instead of them just hosing you down in return.

Or even better (and possibly easier to implement), flinch severity based on damage received, heavy armour would make you flinch less

[placid dagger]

But does aim punch help with that or does it make it so that normal gunfights turn into coin tosses?

since the ttk is already low chances are if you get the drop on someone you've already killed them before they can do much of anything to you

but if they get the lucky flinch they can kill you

[peak gulch]

I'd argue it does help, I don't think it turns it into a coin toss, and whilst it's quick I've had very complex engagements that have lasted a whole 2 seconds where this played a large effect

[placid dagger]

flinch being random inherently makes it a coin toss though

Imagine this, I get the drop on a guy, need 3 bullets to kill him and hit 2 of those before he hits me. He manages to land a shot on me and my aim gets thrown off worse than his. Now he has the advantage.

[peak gulch]

Whilst ttk is short, it's not instant and also relies on your bullets hitting. If there was no flinch, I could guarantee that I could return-shoot at someone with a sniper rifle before I'm dead. I might not hit them but I'd definitely be close.

[peak gulch]

If a situation is that close, then it is just luck at that point

I don't think you should balance based on micro-scenarios

[placid dagger]

this happens to people more often than not though, in 1v1 fights.

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1119055173357142036

we already had a thread about this I suggest you take a look

[placid dagger]

as a counter point I don't think you should balance on what is "immersive" or "realistic" either

[peak gulch]

I agree, but if it's 1 bullet either way aimpunch isn't going to fix that. I think we need to look at larger picture of what is the problem and where do people see unfairness.

Everyone had flinch, so by default it's fair

[placid dagger]

smh

if the thing is random it cannot be "fair"

that means people are dealing with different amount of aim punch based on luck

[peak gulch]

What I mean is, using that as a baseline, what causes flinch to be perceived as unfair or gamebreaking?

[placid dagger]

because it's not a fun mechanic to play with

it takes control away from you

makes you feel like you got fucked over by rng

which in this case it literally is you getting screwed over by rng

[peak gulch]

Would you go back to having zero flinch like in earlier playtests? I think the game is more fun now with it

I think certain weapons interactions with flinching are broken

[placid dagger]

I didn't get to play playtests so I cannot comment on that

also I have to ask this

[peak gulch]

I can tell you that the opposite of flinching is very frustrating to play against, lighting someone up only to have them spin around and aim at you with no disadvantage isn't fun

And is very frustrating

[placid dagger]

but y'know

you do have the hp advantage

I think if people can aim better they should get rewarded for it

[peak gulch]

Imagine this: you jump someone with your AK15, they have a Vector. You're behind them and shoot them in the back, first shot hits second shot misses, they spin around and fire 4 shots for every one of yours with significantly less recoil. Who wins?

[placid dagger]

Does the existence of this thread imply that the earlier thread won't be looked at with serious thought? Because if so, why are we even allowed to create threads?

[peak gulch]

A lot of the time, despite being dropped on, the SMG user won

[placid dagger]

This is just the weapon balance being off though

you cannot solve that by just using aim punch

smgs are overtuned

[peak gulch]

Exactly, so flinch should be factored into weapon balance

[placid dagger]

ah yes we should solve weapon balance not by looking at the weapons themselves but adding in rng mechanics

everybody agrees that smgs are overpowered

[solid thistle]

Aimpunch is excessive, pls remove this annoying rng mechanic. No other similar shooter has aimpunch like this

[peak gulch]

No, you look at it in the whole

[peak gulch]

Don't put words in my mouth

[placid dagger]

hm? Looking at something as a whole means you don't get to bring up overpowered smgs either. At the most general, aim punch removes the reliance on skill and introduces a rng element into gunfights. I think this is not good for the game as it makes the outcome of gunfights from who played better (aim, positioning, movement etc.) to who got luckier. Trying to balance weapons with rng mechanics will only lead to frustration.

[peak gulch]

But.... Looking at it in the whole means you DO get to bring up overpowered SMGs, because that's whats causing the complaints with flinching. Look at a root cause analysis rather than trying to fix the symptoms

[fierce stone]

Wait! Can someone explain this thing? Is this new?

[placid dagger]

How do you tell me that I'm focusing on micro-scenarios but you get to bring up a whole another problem to argue your point? What about AR vs AR battles? What about LMGs vs LMGs? You focus on the one single weapon class that has already been acknowledged even by the devs as having problems then ignore all the other scenarios where aim punch is a problem. You cannot balance smgs by making them have worse rng, that is just going to make people get frustrated with rng instead of saying "oh maybe I shouldn't have taken an engagement outside of my effective range".

[fierce stone]

Is this why I've been losing firefights so much now?

[dawn onyx]

It’s always been a thing

[peak gulch]

Flinching has been in the game since before early access started

[placid dagger]

always has been

[fierce stone]

I only know that changing pistol makes the crosshair be way up in the sky since PT. Are we talking about that?

Or suppression effect aim punch?

[peak gulch]

No, this is your screen jerking when you get shot

[fierce stone]

Aw. Ok

[vapid zealot]

aim punch wasn't in the play tests, honestly felt better then

[peak gulch]

It was in the later play tests

[dawn onyx]

My feedback is that the game would be a lot more fun if it was almost or completely non existent, the only benefit is that you can spray at snipers and make it so they can’t shoot you, but this is also really annoying as a sniper.

[peak gulch]

I was just about to raise that, before this was implemented snipers were even more obnoxious

And I think countering that was one of the reasons it was added

[fierce stone]

Does aim punch matter on bullet size (larger bullet = larger punch) or volume (more bullet = more punch)?

[peak gulch]

I don't believe so currently

Devs would have to answer

[vapid zealot]

its based on damage from what ive heard and its additive

[peak gulch]

As far as I'm aware it's a static flinch based on each hit, not damage

Happy to be proven wrong though

[vapid zealot]

i did testing with a mate of mine, dmr's flinch harder because of the damage they inflict, but you recover quick enough because of the rate of fire

[fierce stone]

Is the effect just visual (screen shake) or affects aim/crosshair as well?

[vapid zealot]

crosshair

[peak gulch]

Crisshair somewhat

[placid dagger]

it pushes your crosshair off from where it was placed

[fierce stone]

Then it's bad isn't it? You fight recoil, bullet deviation (flower pattern or whatever) AND flinch to kill people.

[placid dagger]

What's worse it's random

you cannot anticipate it like say, bullet velocity or bullet drop.

[vapid zealot]

i've found that if you keep getting hit while flinched it makes it worse

[peak gulch]

Complaining about the randomness of flinching is like complaining about the randomness of recoil, it's a non-point

Every game must have some randomness in it, otherwise it's sterile

[placid dagger]

what?

[vapid zealot]

recoil isnt that random

[placid dagger]

that must be the most unaware thing I've seen

[peak gulch]

Yea it is, people complain in feedback about it.

[placid dagger]

how is recoil as random as flinch?

[peak gulch]

The randomness of horizontal recoil

[green dragon]

reduce aim punch effectiveness

[safe hamlet]

aimpunch is the penalty to being hit, IMO it's good rn

[vapid zealot]

horizontal recoil doesn't matter if there not enough vertical recoil,

[peak gulch]

I think aim punch should stay, but be lessened and reworked whilst keeping an eye on its impact on weapons balancing.

[safe hamlet]

for the upcoming milsim mode I'd suggest implementing flinch on near misses for suppression, like in Squad PTB

[green dragon]

Current flinch fits more in Milsim mode, not casual

[vapid zealot]

good

[placid dagger]

identity issues intensify

[peak gulch]

Let's not derail this into a casual Vs milsim thread

[vapid zealot]

it should be lessened in casual though, because its just a frustrating mechanic that'll drive people away

[peak gulch]

As an end goal, I'd like to see armor implemented properly and have flinch tied to that, weapon caliber and damage dealt

[safe hamlet]

rn you don't flinch at all if your armor completely absorbed the shot. support class can usually stand their ground and have a lot more time to return fire. I say that's good enough

lesser armors having too little health to tank a single bullet is a problem for the other classes though yeah. it felt like armor didn't matter for the other classes, but I think that's digressing from the current topic

[peak gulch]

Armor is just extra HP rather than damage mitigation, it disappears in about 2 SMG shots

But yes, digression

[fierce stone]

Btw does it get affected by direction. Get shot from front = flinch. Get shot from back = no flinch.

Or flinch anytime everytime?

[peak gulch]

Doesn't feel like it

[safe hamlet]

flinch happens regardless of direction, as far as I can tell

[fierce stone]

Ok so it's just an uber aggressive suppression effect that's not called suppression.

[slate parrot]

Sometimes aimpunch throws me to their head, sometimes it makes me miss 3 bullets in a 3 btk game. It's hella RNG and does not really do anything to improve s gunfight. Who is this feature supposed to affect? Right now it favors smgs for fire rate reasons

[fierce stone]

Your honor, the jury calls on death penalty for flinch.

[peak gulch]

It was implemented to deal with snipers returning fire with impunity AFAIR, as well as to limit people turning around and headshot snap-firing after being jumped on

As someone who played playtests before it was implemented, snipers were even more annoying because you couldn't spoil their aim with a few shots

[slate parrot]

The first one doesn't need aimpunch that heavy, and the second one happens anyways because high firerate weapons just outpunch anyone who shoots them

It legit creates the problem it wants to solve because instead of getting out shot in which case I had a chance to hit my shots, now I just get bounced around and miss shots that I could not have hit if I wanted to

[normal spoke]

helmet should reduce flinch depending on their weight

[cosmic night]

I don't know if it's just me but flinch seems different on which sight you use. Like the Aim comp or HSG have almost no aimpuch at all but if you try the Holos they get punched like crazy.

[strange compass]

limit people turning around and headshot snap-firing after being jumped on
from my experience, aimpunch brings the opposite consequences - it super helps people to turn around after being hit by 1-2 bullets, aimpunch you, and then kill because you lose ability to aim

so it is unfair advantage based on rng

[topaz nexus]

Aim punch, the mechanic intended to limit the good players cuz bad players can't handle being farmed that ends up limiting bad players more that the good ones. Just remove it, only makes game less enjoyable.

[pastel shore]

Aim punch/flinch is probably the single biggest problem in BB, it's the most frustrating feature in the entire game, and is present in every single engagement so is impossible to ignore. It introduces a horrible RNG mechanic into gunfights, and tremendously reduces the impact of aim in determining who wins the fight.

Imo, aim punch/flinch should be removed, or if oki insists on keeping it, nerfed so that you are only aim punched on headshots, and can only be aim punched once every 10 seconds at most.

[peak gulch]

What would you replace it with to handle snipers? Because that will be a problem worse than SMGs just like it was in playtest

(this isn't facetious I am genuinely interested in alternatives)

[pastel shore]

The only issue is with snipers. I am not sure what the best way to balance them is without aim punch.

I'm not committing to a suggestion, but some random thoughts

1. flinch is removed(or nerfed to HS only with 10s cooldown), with the exception of sniper rifles.
2. Snipers with Red Dots, Iron Sights, or Long range scopes do not have flinch. Snipers with medium range scopes have flinch.

This lets snipers choose - no zoom, but no flinch. Long range zoom with no flinch, but scope glint that gives your position away. Mid range without glint, however, you are flinched on getting hit.
3) snipers always have flinch when hit, except with red dot/iron sights

[peak gulch]

That's not very smooth

And long range zoom with no flinch is the issue

[placid dagger]

gotta ask, what range are you talking about?

[peak gulch]

I mean, one method to test would be to have flinch toggleable on community servers and just let people play with/without it and see what they think

[placid dagger]

what is your engagement range where snipers are just destroying you while getting shot at. Especially since the ttk is so low.

[pastel shore]

Yea, I think 3) is the best. No flinch(or HS only with 10s cooldown). Only snipers/DMRs have flinch, unless they are setup with red dots/iron.

This is the only way I can think of for improving gameplay for everyone without also overpowering snipers.

[peak gulch]

This was back in earlier playtests but it was rife, to the point where Basra was basically unplayable.

[placid dagger]

I kinda need more than this to be able to comment ngl. Do we have any videos or something?

You can pm me the link

[peak gulch]

I don't, it's anecdotal.

[plush plover]

just reduce the flinch, no need to remove it completely as it makes gun fights not just " who sees who first ' sure flinch can be annoying but downright removing it will def make the 1v1 situations in this game way more dull and boring and it could turn into whoever has the better gun wins and not who has better aim.

[placid dagger]

depending on its severity flinch doesn't really pick who has the better aim now does it

[vapid lantern]

I haven't had much issue with aimpunch. 👌 🐴

[peak gulch]

The only issue I have with it is very high ROF weapons, as they trigger excessive flinching

[plush plover]

having that slight flinch shows whos better at readjusting their aim to be on their target

right now its just you get shot and have a seizure

anything with a high rpm its like fighting mike tyson they way my shit is just punched out of existence

[pastel shore]

what is your opinion on receiving flinch only on headshots, or only once during a fight, ie, it's on a cooldown? That would still let microadjustments matter as you said, but not be excessive.

Could obv be combined with a reduction in severity, as well. I'd prefer no aim punch as outlined above, but if the best we can do is reduced aim flinch then that's still worth discussing

[placid dagger]

that's why I said depending on severity, as it is now it's whoever's lucky or whoever has aimbot lmao

[plush plover]

def should be toned down a lot tho

[peak gulch]

Two headshots kill all targets, would be a little pointless as you'd already be dead.

[pastel shore]

depends on the gun.

[plush plover]

i mean i dont mind removing aim punch completely i just know it will make gun fights boring and quick asl cuz you have no other factors besides who seen who first and started shooting first. especially if you cant shoot back and throw them off even the tiniest bit it wil result in all the gun fights being heavily one sided and all in all just very boring/annoying to deal with

[peak gulch]

Sho is correct

[placid dagger]

this is assuming that people have perfect recoil control and the target is not trying to evade though

[sharp cloak]

completely removing it is not the right thing to do

[placid dagger]

I'd much rather win/lose by skil than rng

so toning it down is a good start

[sharp cloak]

can this thread also cover screenshake?? There are many times where my screen shakes/moves so much when jumping or climbing I cant see anything

I have it on 0 in settings

[strange compass]

lets force people to solve math expressions during gunfights instead

[pastel shore]

I think this is a bug that has to do with changing elevation, it annoys the shit out of me, as well. It happens very frequently if you are strafing on a slope, for example. I was planning on getting a video of it in action and reporting in the bug report channel.

It's the same animation that happens when you land after jumping while ADSd, which is ok for the screenshake, but shouldn't happen unless you jumped or fell off a much larger height.

[plush plover]

yeah im also going based off who im surrounded by who are people who are really good at aiming, so removing aim punch will literally make the game un fun/dull for both parties as one will just get burned every single time with nothing they can do except camp in a building, and the other one will literally just mow down 99% of people in 1v1 scenarios as nothing is " debuffing " them to bring it to a equal gun fight

[placid dagger]

you kinda evaded the second part of my thing though

movement is a non-trivial part of this game

I'm not disagreeing with you fyi, I'm just saying aim punch isn't the only equalizer

[plush plover]

oh yeah ofc but its the main one. 90% of players arent even attempting movement tech on this game and if ur getitng out moved in the middle of a gun fight then whether you had aim punch or not doesnt really matter as your aim isnt the best

no you particularly but just in general

[placid dagger]

the only movement tech I see attempted are drop shotting and qe spam which should just be nerfed since they are quite braindead

turning the game into who can dance or flop better

[plush plover]

lol i odnt want to start on that

[placid dagger]

yeah not related to the topic

[strange compass]

Which good fps games with aimpunch do you guys know besides "tactical" kind of, which is not a battlebit's genre? I can remember only apex, but aimpunch there is barely noticeable most of the time. And does aimpuch make those games better?

[safe hamlet]

I feel like these arguments of people instantly getting shot back gloss over the fact that the player you're shooting also gets aimpunch when hit. no, if you're actually landing your shots, they won't just turn back and dome you instantly

there's aimpunch in counter strike when you don't have armor on

[sharp cloak]

valorant and cod are the two I can think of

[strange compass]

oh yes valorant
it is so annoying there inst it?

[sharp cloak]

rarely

[strange compass]

airstrafing is huge thing in this game

[peak gulch]

Counterstrike, cod etc.

Only ones that don't are modern battlefield games and arena shooters

(modern battlefield games are arena shooters )

[placid dagger]

I meant in general obv. the average player can't even effectively climb let alone airstrafe

[placid dagger]

battlefield games had suppresion which is just aim punch that doesn't mess with your screen

[pastel shore]

aim punch in apex can be removed entirely by having any shields. Even 1 shield will remove aim punch entirely. You are only aim punched on pure flesh damage, so it's easy to mitigate/play around aim punch.

For valorant/cs:go, you don't get aim punched at all if you buy armor. So aim punch is generally only for eco rounds, and gives armor a bigger advantage, so full buys have a larger advantage over eco buys

[plush plover]

but like how you said most movement tech in a middle of a gunfight is just dropshotting and q e spam, which to counter it boils down to having subpar aim as they are just altering their hitbox and its not even drastically altering it. its literally pull down and adjust ur aim couple centimeters to be on target. so if u can do that it doesnt matter how much aim punch there is, said person will lose 90% of the time in those engagements. not having any aim punch wont be a helpful thing for those people

tldr: reduce aim punch no need to remove it all

[strange compass]

if so, should aimpunch be a 1-frame thing?

[rough vapor]

The amount of gunfights I lost because of aim-punch and not because I had a poorly setup gun for the engagement/range, aimed poorly or died too fast to respond is probably 1 in 50 deaths. I feel like its in a good place

[plush plover]

just reduce that hoe a lil bit and we golden

everybody happy

[pastel shore]

Reduce it a decent amount, and you get aim punched only on getting headshot, unless you are using a DMR/Sniper with a medium or long range scope, at which point you always get aim punched.

final offer!

[peak gulch]

Stop with the headshot nonsense

[pastel shore]

I'd prefer none, but that's a good compromise. Gives more incentive to aim for the head and lets better aimers turn around fights. Better than getting your aim knocked off by a random toe shot when someone sprays n prays at you.

[strange compass]

hes just more skilled in praying I guess

gods like him
new level of immersion wtf

[peak gulch]

Just be honest with yourself and say remove it

Don't say "it's ok just nerf it to the point of obscurity, that's fair and balanced"

[placid dagger]

Man for someone who calls people out for ad hom your responses are needlessly rude

[peak gulch]

Just argue honestly

[upbeat herald]

Watch it

You two are straying

[placid dagger]

smh how is calling out rudeness straying from topic

[peak gulch]

Smh fam fr fr oh my days bruv

[upbeat herald]

Changes wont be made unless there are overwhelmeing consensus

Just simplify it

[placid dagger]

So far I think everyone at least agrees that aim punch should be turned down a bit

[upbeat herald]

Throw out some more suggestion regarding possible "fixes" for the issue

I like the flinch reduction from armour idea

But what other ways can we approach this?

[placid dagger]

I like this too but we'd need a way to replenish armor for it to matter outside of the first fight you take

[fickle cedar]

Remove this mechanic completely or make it only very effective on certain weapon archetypes

Ar, pdw, carbines, smgs do minimal flinch

Lmgs may do a bit more

Dmrs and snipers do significantly more flinch

Terribly implemented mechanic at its current state. I still lost because my weapon has a lower rpm than the person shooting back and i was totally off target. Game is chaotic and has a few rng elements to affect gun performance, i dont wish another element to totally determine the outcome of the fight

[stray prawn]

IMHO i see no need for it and its just straight up annoying and useless mechanic i only see it being good in milsim games. when i played in the PT i hated it but never enough to care since at the time i just wanted to play the game also i couldn't make a Feedback since it was always full. Now that i can play the game whenever i notice how bad it is the more i play

`RNG: It feels so random at times that it's not funny. When I'm spraying at someone, they shoot back as if there's no problem, but with me, I get kicked up into the sky. This mechanic introduces an element of randomness to gunfights, making outcomes less predictable and potentially reducing the impact of skillful aim.

Less enjoyable gunplay: Players often find the gunplay experience more enjoyable when they have full control over their aim. Aim punch/Flinch can make shooting less satisfying.

Impact on weapon balance: Aim punch/Flinch can affect the balance of different weapons. I feel that anything with a fast RPM, like the vector, makes it even more potent. (I could be wrong on this one, but I feel that it's even more aggressive on guns with a fast fire rate, though I'm not 100% sure.)`
^ what i posted on the other thread but ill place it here

[pastel shore]

? I am honest with myself. I'm not an all or nothing kind of person, I understand compromise and can offer multiple suggestions.

1. remove it completely, except on snipers/dmrs with medium/long range scopes, who always finch, with a small cooldown(maybe lock it to 300 or 600 RPM to prevent fast firing guns like vector from becoming unmanangeable).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a cooldown, except on snipers/dmrs with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

All 4 of those are acceptable outcomes, but I would prefer them in the order I listed. There was no dishonesty in my statements

[tawdry edge]

In my experience, aimpunch doesn't matter on long-range, lengthy engagements with snipers. If you're taking shots at snipers at such a range where you can't reliably hit them with all of your bullets, then they have time to recover from aimpunch, so it's a non-issue

I rarely notice aimpunch in all cases, because I'm usually dead before I can even react, the TTK is so high

[crimson palm]

I wish greater calibers would punch harder so SMGs are only superior if they get the first hit on you, as example 9mm punches less than 7.62x51

[pastel shore]

nah all this does is move the frustration to different weapons. Doesn't solve anything.

Aside from snipers, aim punch shouldn't really be used as a balancing mechanic. All that'll do is make AK15 and FAL so ridiculously good that they'll be cried about more than vector ever was.

[crimson palm]

I don't have an issue with it in the first place, that's just how I would like it

[heavy latch]

I think that getting aim punched by small calibers as much as how a scar would aim punch you is a little nonsensical

[steep surge]

I like the first suggestion where the flinch is reduced by the damage taken, the only problem is the TTK is so low the armor you have as a support wont make a difference in your aim for the average player. Medics and engineers could slow down with armor benefits but again TTK is so low the flinch is hardly noticeable when you get shot first. Flinch being tied to gun class (given flinch) and caliber (bonus flinch) might be another way. LMGs should be rocking your aim if you're getting hit and SMGs should be causing little kicks with how fast and numerous the bullets fly. Snipers not hitting headshots are slackers so I have no say on flinch for that. DMRs should be along the lines of LMGs but not as bad. This would allow them to excel at range vs SMGs and ARs while being a hinderance to anybody posted with LMGs and snipers. AR's imo are in a good spot, just overlooked by SMGs

[heavy latch]

all together Aim punch is like Horizontal Recoil
Not controlable and annoying when you start shooting a guy first but the guy shoots you and you flinch the most

[pastel shore]

Again, all that does is move the frustration to different weapon classes. LMGs are already insanely strong, but if they're the weapon that now aim punches even more, they will be just as frustrating to play against as the vector. You won't change anything in the end, the aim punch will still be just as frustrating to play against.

Some of the best weapons in the game, like the AK15 and FAL, have high damage, they would aim punch you to high hell and would be just as frustrating, if not more, to play against than vector is now. There would be no point in implementing your suggestion, as it just shuffles the problem around instead of addressing it.

this suggestion geniunely seems like a "spite" change from players who dislike SMGs. You just want your weapon of choice to be the most annoying, instead of adjusting everything in a way that improves the game for everyone.

[steep surge]

The last line might be your opinion but let me change your mind in saying that it's not meant to be a "spite change" simply because I use all the weapons in the game and I think these changes are manageble. With numerical values added to the flinch you can bring in line OR create a niche which a gun in a class can fill.

And you're right the AK15 and FAL should wack your aim at range. And that's when it becomes a skill issue, why did you take that fight at that range?

LMG's should be punishing and i know they can be but for the rest of the populace who can't seem to grasp how to use it? I'm a G36C user and all my smg's are sub 400 kills. Vector having trouble killing a support is how it should be

[late sparrow]

Flinch helps no one and should be remove, i dont know why they overtuned it for EA launch probably to lessen the skill gap im guessing but anything rng shouldnt be applied to gunfights just makes it ridicilously frustrating

[steep surge]

If they remove it, then it's gone and nobody has to worry about it true. If they keep it, they should add numbers to it.

[pastel shore]

And you're right the AK15 and FAL should wack your aim at range. And that's when it becomes a skill issue, why did you take that fight at that range?

I cannot believe you typed this out unironically. Bro, those guns are better close range guns than they are long range guns. The FAL out DPS the vector. AK15 does too, if you can hit a headshot+body shot. The range is literally completely irrelevant to my point.

Your response shows that you are geniunely not arguing in good faith, or are so bad at the game that you don't have a solid enough grasp of the mechanics to offer a well informed opinion.

[steep surge]

Oh I'm sorry i'm not barrel stuffing enemies with my weapons like everyone else. I like to throw a medium range scope and canted on my FAL, AK15, and SCAR. So sue me that i like to use weapons with high damage at range where i'm not at risk of a SMG

You are worried about CQC. I'm worried about distance. Two different areas flinch can have an effect

[pastel shore]

Yea. Thank you for completely confirming EXACTLY what I said - your suggestions are in bad faith and based PURELY on spite. You are willing to completely break balance in favor of your preferred weapon type instead of actually considering the implications or what is best for everyone.

FAL is one of, if not the best CQC weapon. It's also great at range. Being one of the weapons in the game that aim punches most would result in this weapon being literally 5x the power that the vector ever was. Your suggestion is terrible. Thank you for at least admitting to being dishonest and arguing in bad faith.

[crimson palm]

But FAL isn't meant for CQC, atleast historical

[frank goblet]

Hey guys, former championship/top 500/competitive - Socom/MW1/Overwatch/PUBG/Squad player with 30 years of gaming experience. I'd like to add my input on Aim Punch balance after 120+ hours of playing a varying amount of classes/weapons.

I feel like aim punch is great all around so far, however, it should be removed/reduced from SMG's/PDW's/Low Caliber Pistols. SMG's/PDW's really need some balance right now and removing aim punch from them would give AR's/LMG's a chance to counter mediocre SMG players. The skilled people with great aim will still frag out, and the skilled players using AR's/LMG's will have a chance to fight back against lesser skilled opponents using SMG's. A slight damage falloff nerf to SMG's would be beneficial as well as these weapons are way too effective at even AR ranges.

Aim punch is a great way to ensure that lesser skilled players with good positioning can secure kills, and I completely agree with this design choice. It feels right and doesn't need much improvement IMO. Aim punch ensures that when I, a skilled player, makes a mistake, I am punished for it!

[steep surge]

But there is no spite? Who would I be spiteful of?

[jaunty panther]

i personally feel like the effective range of the ARs+carbines just need to be increased a tad

aim punch as is in its current state imo is fine, not to aggressive but noticeable. at high fire rates it don't matter unless its at range, then its crazy but haven't the ability to reliably reach out further with an AR would solve the current perceived skill gap and (claimed op vector) after all that's what this is all about, how to reduce the effectiveness of the vector (why do that when we can make other weapons as good as they should be)

[pastel shore]

This is a thread about aim punch in general, it's goal is not to nerf the vector. There is a specific thread about nerfing vector.

[jaunty panther]

it was half joke half truth. and trust me ik very well bout the other thread XD

[pastel shore]

Vector will be nerfed, there's a ton of suggestions in that thread. I would rather keep this thread on topic instead of having spiteful suggestions whose sole intent is to nerf the vector or other SMGs without regard to actually trying to improve the game

[steep surge]

Are you worried about the meta shifting from vector spam to FAL/AK15 spam because they would cause harder flinch? I barely use those weapons AND I said their punch was fine as it is??? Were you thinking the given flinch and bonus flinch in my suggestion were to exceed their current values? Because I was thinking of using AR's as baseline since they have so many different calibers that you can form the baseline I'd think. Aim punch is frustrating to play against as you said, which is why I'm giving Feedback on how it could be changed so it's at least DIFFERENT to play WITH it

[jaunty panther]

no his words are the only correct ones is the theme dont bother ive tried. also as displayed by his remark to my feedback

[steep surge]

Buff LMGs and DMRs so they have more use at range thanks to aim punch. That's my suggestion 👍

Leave SMG and ARs and Snipers alone with flinch 👍

[pastel shore]

FAL is my 2nd most used weapon, 1st being P90, 3rd being M200. However, I've played every single weapon in the entire game to between 350-500 kills, with many being between 1500-2500. The FAL is already insanely powerful, I put it to extremely good use. What I am worried about is making the game more frustrating by players attempting to nerf the vector and other SMGs without regarding anything else, which is exactly what your suggestion would do. In fact, your suggestion would be such a buff to the AK15 and FAL that I would consider it literally throwing to touch any other weapon in the entire game. Your suggestion would unbalance the game to the point of being nearly unplayable with other weapons.

Not only would they be the best CQC weapons, they are also be great at range, and with your suggestion as well as some of the only weapons that aim punch, and to a greater magnitude than other weapons, regardless of range. It's a terrible suggestion as a result.

[steep surge]

Give Numerical values to flinch so people can see what they are working with 👍

[pastel shore]

from my character sheet before I prestiged...

[steep surge]

@crimson palm you can see it in your stats page at the main menu

[crimson palm]

I deleted, nothing to see, I missread the message

[frank goblet]

Judging by the clown reaction on my feedback regarding aim punch on SMG's, I can already tell you are just here to stir the pot, spam the channel, and provide no valuable insight whatsoever.

[jaunty panther]

"It's a terrible suggestion as a result." but proceeds to wonder why people seem spiteful when repying to his unessecary comment about somebody elses opinion.

[steep surge]

See now you're lying because it's been clarified that the baseline and bonus flinch for the AR's and SMG's would remain the same

[jaunty panther]

dude honestly your half the freaking thread just saying peoples opinions are crap would you just fuf off

[steep surge]

Well the mod can see the thread so they can step in when they see fit

[pastel shore]

Nah, I've just already provided a ton of input on this topic, if you scroll up.

The clown emoji was because of your opening with "appeal to authority". You could've deleted the first paragraph and I wouldn't have bothered replying it, since I've already explained why keeping aim punch as is(or buffing it on weapon class, as someone else suggested), but removing it from SMGs, is not a good solution.

Your final paragraph is fine, but I disagree on that the magnitude of aim punch is simply too high, it adds too much RNG to fights. With how much your aim is punched at the moment, even playing well, getting the first shot, being behind partial cover could still result in a loss due to RNG. I would agree with this statement only if the magnitude of aim punch was adjusted to be more reasonable.

[placid dagger]

If they wanted no discussion of opinions they would make these anonymous, gather the most suggested changes and open a poll. By nature these threads encourage discussion. If you don't want to argue you can just not participate.

Also I agree with the appeal to authority bit. You should have used that later rather than at the start of your post.

[pastel shore]

I don't wonder that at all. I know exactly why some players are making suggestions to spite nerf the vector/smgs. I just wish they'd consider wider implications of the suggestions, for example, keeping aim punch as is but removing it from SMGs would unbalance the ak15 and FAL to extremes.

Aim punch would need a dramatic reduction, across the board, or otherwise all you are doing is spite nerfing SMGs, only doing it in a way that harms the overall balance of the game dramatically, as well as keeping or even increasing the frustrating aspect w/ regards to flinch

If flinch was reduced by something like 75%, and then SMGs lost flinch, SURE! I can get behind (not completely, but I'd at least think it's a valid argument). But there's no shot you can keep it as is and just remove it from SMGs as that just elevates the other S tier weapons into "completely broken", the fal and AK15 being the two best examples.

That is why I think that suggestion is made out of spite, instead of a serious suggestion. It's an attempt to kick at a playstyle you don't agree with or like for whatever reason, instead of a serious attempt at improving the game.

[jaunty panther]

keeping aim punch as is but removing it from SMGs would unbalance the ak15 and FAL to extremes. Agreed 100%

my man my only issue is that 3 feedback posts in a row ive posted you imediatly without hesistation just said no they are crap dont even consider it (guarentee thats not the point of the threads) otherwise your ciritisizm and rebuttles are absolutly reasonable and logical (not that i agree) (but im sure the idea of these threads is to get an idea of the overall population, not just what walk thinks)

thats speaking just for myself, not to mention everybody else that is "burried" by your critique.

also what does it matter mate, the devs can easily decide that themselfs lol dont need you to reaffirm it be it true or not. just stomping on everybody elses opinions it seems b

[hard pelican]

Flinch imo should be dramatically reduced or removed. At the moment its frustrating to get the first shot off on a guy, he spins around, returns fire and manages to hit me throwing my aim off and losing the fight because of RNG

[crimson palm]

Can you explain why it's RNG? I've seen it often mentioned now, but isn't it consistent expected?

[jaunty panther]

in my experience the range increases the effect of aimpunch mostly because of FOV (not the setting but in general)

[crimson palm]

Yeah I know, that's why snipers have it the worst, their scope jumps out of the window. Just why is it rng

[placid dagger]

Aim punch is random so it's unpredictable

[crimson palm]

Wdym it's random? Does it not always apply?

[steep surge]

Aim punch is RNG because when you get hit, there is no gurantee you flinch the same way everytime. Thus knocking your aim and causing your next shot to be off. Which to people who hit lots of shots, is frustrating because maybe you lost a gunfight not because you whiffed but instead because the enemy bullet flinch CAUSED you to miss. Which is something out of your control and is thus frustrating to have

[placid dagger]

It applies in different directions each time

[pastel shore]

Correct. It's the same with recoil. The magnitude of each kick doesn't change, but the smaller FOV makes the same magnitude cross a larger section of the screen. Same distance when looking at terrain and comparing before/after, but much larger distance when measured from point a to point b on your monitor.

[crimson palm]

Oh I didn't know, thought it's always horizontal

[hard pelican]

The main problem with the flinch/aimpunch system is that it removes control from the player and for what I assume they want to make into an arcade shooter taking control away from the player is not good

[crimson palm]

They don't want to be an arcade shooter they said they want to be in-between

[frank goblet]

Since when does experience speak as an appeal of authority. I have no authority, but I do have experience in game balancing at a competitive level and stating as much helps to see where my point of view is coming from as a former competitive gamer in a variety of game genres. I've worked with various developers testing and providing valuable feedback for several popular games throughout the decades and aim punch/flinch/suppression is always a topic of discussion and controversy. Aim punch is a great way to ensure balance amongst a wide variety of skill levels so that even lower mechanically skilled players can have fun too, securing their kills by playing smart from a positioning standpoint. I have nothing against SMG's nor the players that favor them, short of the fact that they do require some minor balance tweaks, one of which IMO, would be to remove or greatly reduce their aim punch values to provide counter play for the varying other weapon classes. This prevents the need of overbuffing other weapons and spiraling the game out of control balance wise. This is direct feedback to aim punch in general and not out of spite for SMG's. I enjoy dropping major bombs with SMG's as much as the next guy. That doesn't mean I can't look past that and provide feedback on it. You guys need to remember what a bell curve actually looks like, you have to find balance across that entire curve of player skill or else the playerbase will suffer in unintended ways. Aim punch is a great way to provide some lenience in that regard for the lesser mechnanically skilled players. It could be worse, we could have suppression instead. 😛

[hard pelican]

You They can't do an in-between... it just doesn't work. Trying to blend realistic, tactical gameplay with arcade mechanics is like trying to mix oil and water.

[crimson palm]

That's what they said not what I experience

[jaunty panther]

and ngl i wouldnt even know where to begin to work with that in balance due to the complexity of it. you have so much to really consider with it. i persoanlly have always leaned toward environmental effects like screen blur/fade and or the "black out" type flinch like in squad and arma 3 ACE, just because its less math, but this would also result in more work trying to refine it and possibly be more taxing than something thats stat related and determined by multipliers based on xxx conditions

[steep surge]

BF3 suppresion haunts my dreams

[hard pelican]

Don't even remind me of BF3 suppression....

[jaunty panther]

i loved it lol, yall must have hated me then XD

same in arma ace supression module, oh just cover fire for hours 🥹

[pastel shore]

suppression just as bad as aim punch, just makes the fights massively RNG. In BF3/BF4 the suppression dramatically reduced your guns accuracy, so two players shooting at each other would be basically spray and pray after a few shots. Bullets would have a huge cone where they could land

[jaunty panther]

yeah it would also be a balencing act and even worse in this type setting, but if they drop milsim type things that could be something maybe server owner/providers can alter too, what ever they decide to go with

[frank goblet]

As much as I love OG Squad, suppression was a hot topic of discussion while we were reworking the game mechanics for the current iteration of the game (Not the new infantry overhaul). This is always going to be a point of controversy in first person shooters. Sometimes you need to compromise so that everyone can have fun, despite the fact that it directly goes against what you want as an extremely skilled player.

[jaunty panther]

i think thats the one thing erbody agrees on, said in this entire channel if not discord XD^^

[pastel shore]

I remember squads suppression being a hot topic, though I don't remember the specifics of what it did. I think squad was huge amount of weapon sway and some blur, but the guns remained accurate?

[hard pelican]

Ye

Was not to fun gunplay wise though

[jaunty panther]

weapon sway, huge reduction to accuracy depending on how close the suppression is, major black out effect along with blur and distortion. it was super bad for a while but they lightened it up to reasonable levels imo

[pastel shore]

For me squad died with the movement change. Their implementation of "weight" and inertia felt really bad and off to me, like I was ice skating. It didn't feel like a proper implemetnation of weight/inertia, just like they reduced friction between yourself and the world. The suppression was annoying, but I could deal with the sway pretty well, though I hated the blur because it gave me a headache.

[frank goblet]

OG Squad didn't have suppression really. You could drop shot and win 1v1's against lesser skilled opponents. The current iteration that we as a competitive community compromised on is similar to Battlefield 3, just not as intrusive. They are currently reworking it to make it even worse than Battlefield 3.

[pastel shore]

I'm glad everyone can universally agree that suppression is awful, though. I've never seen that system liked in any FPS game, from squad to battlefield

[safe hamlet]

I like Squad's upcoming suppression/flinch response system

Not great to experience it yourself, but the point is so that you can inflict that to your enemies to make them less effective anyway

[hard pelican]

If devs would just screw off blur and add in heavy vignette instead I believe suppression would be okay

[steep surge]

Isn't there some level of suppression currently in game?

[safe hamlet]

It's just dark borders rn

[placid dagger]

your screen gets darker but I'm not sure if it effects accuracy

[steep surge]

You got mad ego to peak someone who's shooting you. I can dig it

[frank goblet]

Aim Punch/Flinch is a tried and tested formula for balance and compromise regarding a suppression mechanic. I think the current iteration of it in BBR is pretty well balanced all things considering, short of SMG's having it which is what I currently think is giving them a superior advantage over many other weapons/classes. I do not hate SMG's, let me make that very clear. I'm just not oblivious to the fact that they are overperforming, and I've been thinking about this for some time. I only came here to voice my opinion because the topic came up and it's exactly the balancing aspect that's been on my mind regarding SMG's. It is not out of spite, it is out of love for the game! I want the BBR community to stay healthy and see consistent player counts. If people are feeling overwhelmed by meta weapons, they will leave. Removing aim punch from things like pistols/smg's would be a great compromise and first step to finding that little bit a balance BBR needs right now.

I would rather see the developers try new changes, and to also not be afraid to roll them back if things don't work out. Many developers forget that it's okay to make mistakes, and it's okay to experiment.

[steep surge]

I just want numbers on the screen to show the value of flinch for starters

[jaunty panther]

and i know the return comments so save your breath.

But irl when your getting shot at (yes ive been shot at (not directly but ive had bullets both ricochetes (plinking in ways you shouldn't) and have had a shot in my direction close enough to hear and feel the snap (very near bad hunting accident) so you can save those comments too)) and through learned experience from others who have been in training scenarios with live rounds, when your shot at and your prepared for it and your adrenaline is rushing, literally they dont mean shit, if your not expecting it, and you let it scare the shit out of you well your probs aready dead (in the setting BBR is played) otherwise you become aware and adjust or cower. either case you dont have any visual effects unless self induced by inablility to control your thoughts and emotions. in regards to ability to maintain accuracy well that comes down to how well are you under pressure and your physical limitations/abilities. which tbh though its a game with less consequences the thought process is still very similar. visual and physical effects in game is not needed unless your literally trying to give a 2 hour the same chance 2k hours has lol. <but thats kinda needed in this setting so hence the argument.

ive also got a spiel on recoil if anybody is interested XD but that my overall take on aimpunch/suppression <its fear not physical inablility

if were talking aimpunch just relating to shots that hit its mark, then yeah you should be getting knocked around hard no matter the instance, its a crappy reality but its the reason why US operates under Stealth, speed, and violence of action.

[pastel shore]

Nearly every game, when it comes to flinch, has a way around it or to mitigate its effects.

Apex legends has flinch, however, it's ONLY on pure flesh damage. If you have even 1 shield, you won't be aim punched. CS:GO/valorant removes aim punch completely if you buy armor, in that case it's used to give a larger advantage to full buys over eco buys.

I don't think it works in battlebit in its current state. The game is too chaotic, there are way too many players(in apex, most fights are 3v3, with occasional third parties, in cs:go it's only 5 other players and more structured maps), and the maps simply have too many angles. You cannot check every window or corner, it's 100% inevitable you will be hit, and there's already other systems in place to help what flinch is supposed to address, which is giving advantage to first person to shoot or newer/worse players(armor, buildable cover, map design, etc). As a result, flinch feels out of place and extremely frustrating, especially at its current magnitude, which is very high and makes all fights feel extremely RNG dependent, unless you happen to catch an opponent from the side or back.

I also don't think battlebit has a viable, already functioning mechanic that can be used to build off a way to mitigate it similar to those other examples. Armor wouldn't work for a few reasons, #1 being that you can't replenish it and you get full armor on spawn, but lose it on your first engagement where damage is traded. However, even if you could replenish it, I think it would still result in the whole system being awkward and flinch being far too punishing, and it would take even longer to reset since now you'd have to heal, then replenish your armor before you could take your next fight. The games pace is good as is, slowing it down more is no bueno.

I think the only time flinch is appropriate is for snipers/dmrs, because they are exceptionally strong and without flinch would dominate mid and long range far too effectively.

DMRs could become exceptionally strong in the context of flinch being removed, which would let them sit at 200-400 meters comfortably with mid range scopes, not in their current state of the game.

(just figured I should clarify, I don't think DMRs are OP or strong in the current state, lol)

[jaunty panther]

would also bring snipers back too tho to around 700+ kinda where they should be, as apposed to the 300-600 range that is currently most common

[tulip dome]

I agree that suppression IRL works by fear, but it feels a little bit silly to force your character to "behave scared" even if you actually aren't. So the question is, how to achieve a direct disorienting effect on the player? I think that giving bullets an AoE effect scaling with their damage/weapon type which kicks up debris that sticks to your vision temporarily + dust like mini smokes would achieve exactly that, as a player that can't effectively see where they're going will be more worried about repositioning than trying to get a peek shot.

[jaunty panther]

and probs even bring ars out to their normal range

[pastel shore]

nah, snipers are counters to DMR, not the other way around. Sniper can play around cover and take a quick shot, then duck behind cover, being safe from DMRs. I would take a bolt action against a DMR 10/10 times if I had cover

but thinking about it more, I'm gonna re-write my old suggestions as I think I was pre-empitvely worrying about DMRs when it wasn't needed

[jaunty panther]

dont at all disagree wit that lol

[pastel shore]

1. remove it completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch, with a small cooldown(maybe lock it to 300 RPM to prevent fast firing guns like vector from becoming unmanangeable).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

My suggestions, in order of what I would prefer, personally.

3 would be most likely compromise, I think.

But I'm gonna be optimistic 🙂

[jaunty panther]

that was kind of my point tho, a player that has 2 hours will be more startled than the one at 2k, usually anyways. in my opinion it just hinders the players full potential but on the opposite end if its something that can be trained on literally then you can gain an advantage by doing so. again its a toss of the meta that could literally just be decided by player ability unless completely randomized at which point lets just toss coins

[placid dagger]

700+ is not where snipers should operate though. That's too far from any objective. They should operate just where they are right now 300-600 maybe even down to 200. Else you have an entire class designed around being too far away to help objectives.

[crimson palm]

lol now go ask in BattleBit-en and all will tell you don't use scopes below 1000m :))

[tulip dome]

If you want to make snipers the superior choice at 200 then you need to nerf every other weapon's range and at that point you might as well just be arm wrestling your opponents

[placid dagger]

I didn't mean to say make them superior, but they should still be able to operate at 200

[tulip dome]

If they don't have the advantage at shorter ranges, why would they want to close the distance then? Low magnification optics are already a thing, but clearly people stay back because they would lose against other weapon types at those ranges.

[placid dagger]

because they'd want to effect the objectives better?

for years there has been to concept of "aggresive sniper"

and I don't know how you play but I do push up with my team if needed

to cover them from other snipers or lmg nests

[steep surge]

god bless a sniper that plays the objective

[placid dagger]

it is obviously harder for you since you are entering a range where you are not completely dominant but you should still be able to play the objective

otherwise you have the other part of the community shitting on sniper for not PTFO

[jaunty panther]

i try my best to get around 700+ (mostly cause i gun for super long shots) out and am still pretty effective and can help influence actions on obj, just comes down to placement

[pastel shore]

snipers are already incredibly strong at that range, most of my kills are within 50-100 meters of them. They are the best weapon for playing around cover, because they can peek for 0.1s and take a shot and get a kill instantly.

Snipers do not need any changes, they are already dominant. Watch any solid aimer on a sniper and they will decimate the lobby, and most of their kills will be within 50-150 meters

[placid dagger]

that's why I'm fine with some sort of aim punch/suppression for snipers even though I mostly play as one

if you get cracked enough you have the advantage 9/10

[pastel shore]

Yep. Same in my suggestion. The only weapon I think should keep flinch.

[steep surge]

taking away flinch would allow for snipers to make follow up shots if they whiff the headshot

[steep surge]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your suggestion seems to say that if you use a sniper rifle, you will be flinched? And that any other weapon you will not be flinched with? And this is because snipers are dominant at range and need to be able to have the gap closed on them right?

[placid dagger]

Snipers are a game design nightmare most of the time. Since they reward skill a lot more than other types of weapons. And with high enough skill there really is no counter play to a sniper. So by giving sniper a weakness like flinch you at least make it so that snipers are weak somewhere, in this range close to mid range.

[steep surge]

This is fax

[placid dagger]

I don't know if I should bring this up in this thread but while thinking about a nerf to snipers so we could buff long range scopes I realized something. Muzzle velocities in battlebit are ridiculous.

They are way faster than what they are like irl.

[steep surge]

Well they gotta change things for gameplay probably

[placid dagger]

I'm going to wait for the dedicated sniper thread to discuss this though.

[placid dagger]

What I find funny is BF3/4 had slower muzzle velocities compared to irl

that's why I want to discuss it

[pastel shore]

Specifically, it's because they can 1hko with a headshot, and often play at ranges where no other weapon could otherwise challenge them. Without flinch, they could play in the open and easily line up headshots even under fire, which gives them too much power, since it's a 1 hit kill. They also tend to be passive playstyles, and don't need to cover long distances in the open, so they have different requirements than all other weapons in the game when it comes to balance. Here's an example of some gameplay, notice how even with flinch in the game I never have any problem because of how I play. However, this is UNIQUE to snipers because the 1hko. Other weapons require you to remain exposed while you shoot, versus being able to duck into cover inbetween your shots.

Balancing snipers is one of the most difficult things in FPS games(along with shotguns). They are generally either OP or useless. Battlebit leans towards OP, which they were, until the game went live with the current flinch mechanics. The flinch mechanics have kept the snipers in check, mostly, but imo, makes every other fight in the game awful.

https://imgur.com/WXX7jWz

This isn't anything special with gameplay but does showcase why I think flinch is appropriote for snipers. Like other games, snipers are unique in that you can mitigate flinch by playing cover, since you don't have to remain exposed. Every other gun requires you to maintain LOS on your opponent to do damage, sniper doesn't.

[steep surge]

They had the suppression from hell so they figured the slower velocity wouldn't matter due to suppression causing you to be inaccurate and stop firing

[placid dagger]

or they thought that you should put more thought when leading shots

when your bullets don't teleport you kinda have to think about where you are shooting

[frank goblet]

I think you are not taking into account that guns like the AK-15, SCAR, and FAL have a skill ceiling that is much higher than MANY other weapons. The average gamer is not going to pick up these weapons and drop people like they can with something like an M4/AK-74/Vector/P90. Recoil management, situational awareness and critical thinking as when to tap fire, 2 to 3 round burst full auto, or full auto is something that will keep many people away from these weapons and prevent them from becoming too meta in casual play. They will always shine in the hands of a mechanically gifted player who knows how to use them, but so will SMG's even without aim punch thanks to the superior speed/weapon draw. The reason I am suggesting removing or reducing aim punch from the SMG's is because they have extremely low skill ceilings. A good portion of people sitting in the middle of the bell curve can pick up one of those low skill ceiling weapons I mentioned and do well with them, even against skilled players, this is why the M4/AK-74 are unlocked from the start. Reducing or removing the aim punch from the overpowering SMG's would simply give many other weapons a better fighting chance against them, especially for the mid-higher skilled players using higher skill ceiling weapons. This brings them more in line balance wise against other weapon types without losing the pace of the game we absolutely love while using SMG's. SMG's are the fastest to draw, negating precious milliseconds of better positioning from the opponent, the fastest to hit you in that regard, and if you are suppressed by the aim punch from an SMG, there is almost no counter play for any other weapon unless the SMG player whiffs a few shots while horizontal tracking. By removing/reducing aim punch on them, those whiffed shots give an opening of counter play to the better player/better positioned player while increasing the skill ceiling slightly for SMG's.

Like I said, it's about finding compromise across the entire spectrum of player skill, aim punch as I described earlier is just a great way to allow lesser skilled players to secure their kills by using more than just mechanical skill, but from positioning themselves smartly. Reducing it on lower skill ceiling weapons across the board is a plus in my balancing book. To say otherwise after taking those facts into account shows more of a bias in favor of SMG meta play, rather than actual balance.

[steep surge]

While i get your opinion, all i see is a sniper taking the right shots and playing his cover correctly. Even with flinch none of those people really had long enough sight on you like you said, which IMO as a sniper you want. You have a heavy hitting, slow fire rate, long range machine playing hyper aggro against SMG's and AR's and other snipers. You don't want to be exposed for longer than you have to be, it's the nature of the class in my book. Flinch against snipers allows for someone with say a p90 to cross an open field, take some pot shots on a sniper so that flinch forces them to miss, and then close the distance while the sniper bolts. Taking away flinch also allows a pp19 user to 180 drop shot anybody who shoots them in the back with no penalty to being shot first other than health disadvantage. I get it's frustrating to play against but for the sake of the masses it's needed to counter said pp19 and p90 players who are just better. Thus i think option 3 would work for your best bet but 4 for the masses if the devs looked at your option.

Snipers can be a terror based on the skill of the player. Not all players play like that and out of those that do, not even all of them hit 100% of their shots. making them the only ones that flinch just seems like trying to balance against a players skill

[pastel shore]

I am taking that into account. I got 5k kills on the FAL, I'm aware that it's more difficult to use than other weapons, but also aware that it's not that hard as to justify having aim punch on FAL, but not on SMGs. I simply cannot take the suggestion of keeping aim punch, (except on SMGS), as a serious suggestion. It would be better if none of these guns had aim punch, or they all had only minor aim punch.

W/ regards to "normalizing" things, I talked about adding a delay in how often you can be aim punched, which would stop faster fire rate weapons from having an advantage over slower fire rate weapons. That would be a better all around solution than just removing flinch from SMGs, but keeping it on other weapon types.

[pastel shore]

That's what I'm showing, specifically, and why I think flinch is important. Because that sort of gameplay is unique and enabled by the 1hko headshot. That means you never want to fight a sniper while he has cover, you want to flank him and force him into a position where he is exposed.

At that point, the sniper should be at a SEVERE disadvatnage, EVEN if they are a fantastic aimer. Without aim punch, snipers aren't at a big enough disadvantage while under fire, even if the opponent plays well and catches them without cover, especially at longer ranges, like 100-150+m, where DMRs/ARs are effective, but not "kill them before they can react" effective.

A sniper caught without cover should be FUCKED, even at longer distances. Without aim punch, that turns from being fucked into "oh no, anyway"

[steep surge]

Should never be without cover in a game where you can build

[pastel shore]

Yet, it happens frequently, and building is clunky and not always an option, and also reliant on SL being awake. So imo, snipers should be the only class that gets flinched, as to prevent them from being OP. I don't think there's any other way to keep snipers balanced in the context of battlebit, even with flinch they are immensely strong, but I can't think of any way to reasonably change them.

[steep surge]

But a sniper shouldn't be LOSING a long range fight from cover either against ARs and LMGs due to the fact they hit a bodyshot and the other person wasn't flinched and is just spraying in the snipers direction.

Snipers are strong I concur. Point and click adventure fer sure. But to take away flinch from ALL the other weapons is too far even if it's annoying because the masses need it for a chance against better players

[jade crater]

Reduce body shot aim punch, increase headshot aim punch.

[brave burrow]

I feel like armor should directly effect taken aim punch

[inland nexus]

its a dumb mechanic that benefits the faster firing guns that are already the meta guns, its complete RNG so it feels like dog shit, 95% of the community hates it, its taking so long for the devs to fix it ive seen multiple people say things along the lines of "the devs don't care about the game" because of it, im genuinely trying to think of any good thing about it and the only thing I can come up with is that it gets me off the game every time I play it. so unless the devs are trying to make people touch grass they should remove it or heavily change it because its logically bad, feels bad, 95% of the community hates it, and its negatively impacting or going to impact the games reputation.

[royal sable]

Scaling aim punch with damage would give dmrs and snipers less bs moments of being peppered to death despite outranging because of low rof.

[jade crater]

i think reducing the effect of aimpunch by 60%/90% on crouch/prone respectively would provide enough counter play that it doesn't feel like it's completely out of your hands. It also addresses the issue with snipers being incapable of hitting a zoom-zoom smg'er from 200m out because of the wild flinch, while still allowing prone machine gunners to have an advantage over players running recklessly at them. Basically a side-buff to slow methodical play without touching the zoom-zoom playstyle.

You could also provide a short duration - high powered slow to ads when getting hit by a bullet, so you can't raise your weapon quickly, that'd fix the whipping around and killing people problem, unless they are within hip fire range.

[slate parrot]

Fuck that I don't need dropshotting to get buffed wtf

[jade crater]

make it a tapered buff that takes 2 seconds to fully apply,

useless on drop shotting that way

[slate parrot]

Yeah, no, I don't think snipers and prone players need buffs lmfao

[jade crater]

its either slow classes get buffs or fast classes get nerfs, medics crazy atm

[slate parrot]

This isn't the aspect to touch tho, encouraging staying still and no moving for 2 seconds is kinda an insane take

Youd have to be actively camping to take any advantage of it, no more peeking windows, no more slow creep etc

Not even squad has benefits for standing completely still out of s gunfight

[jade crater]

You can crouch peak, you can build cover, you can use pickaxe. I don't think it's an awful mechanic, i think it needs tweaking and to not be universally applied. If you create an environment where 1 playstyle reigns supreme you get a homogenized player base aswell as playstyle, variety is good. Removing aim flinch all together or reducing it massively further emphasizes movespeed, which is already pushed. If there's no incentive to hold position or maintain a zone of control then you can effectively remove support altogether.

[slate parrot]

Prone in a corner for 2 seconds is camping, no way around it

[pastel shore]

One thing to take away is that good players will ALWAYS stomp bad players. There is literally no mechanic you can implement that will prevent that.

Instead, what happens is stacking too many of those sort of features ends up simply making the game frustrating for everyone. The VAST majority of players are going to be fighting against other players who are similar skill. The bottom 90% of players are all close enough in skill so that they can reasonably expect to win gunfights against someone in that bracket if they shoot first, regardless of aim punch existing or not. The top 1% is just that, the top 1%. There's nothing you can do to stop a 1% player from killing someone is average, nothing you can do to make the fights fair, because there is an inherent skill gap and the better player will simply always take better advantage of the games mechanics than the rest.

Armor is one such mechanic - players who die more often are going into most of their fights with an HP advantage, while better players who live longer are going into fights with just HP and no armor. Bad players already have an HP advantage over good players through armor. The games TTK is fast enough so that, while annoying, you can manage as a better player/aimer. Flinch, on the other hand, is simply too frustrating, especially in its current state, to be worth the chance of letting worse players win against better. The tradeoff is far too much in its current state.

[jade crater]

grenades aren't athing

[slate parrot]

Not if you're prone in a corner where nobody thinks to throw a grenade

[jade crater]

if you're in a corner where no one thinks to throw a grendade, then you aren't on objective, so who gives a shit?

[pastel shore]

orphan is trolling, just stop biting bruh

[slate parrot]

Im pretty sure he's serious based on his original 2nd psragraph

[jade crater]

I dunno, i play frontline and conquest, maybe it'd have more impact on the mode syou play

[pastel shore]

if he is then it's even less worthwhile engaging, tbh

[jade crater]

good lord walk, grow up

[slate parrot]

I mean if i were to use your concept, I'd pass that antiflinch buff to bipod usage

But for a 2 second prone player that's insane incentive for plain and simple xamping

Bipod locks you to a floor or nearby window with a ton of debuffs and on limited "slow" classes so it still affects your target group without buffing the wrong playstyle

Which is sitting prone wherever

[jade crater]

im just spitballing, trying to figure out an answer that makes sense instead of plain ol' removing the mechanic. I see your concern, and yea, incentivizing camping too much is an issue aswell. The bipod thing could work, having it as a stat that's effected by attachments could work aswell. I dunno. I just don't want it gone completely because it'd neuter machineguns.

but it's too oppressive in it's current iteration for sure.

[slate parrot]

I mean smgs benefit from it th most rn

[jade crater]

agreed

[stiff mantle]

yea I would second that flinch seems like a good way of nerfing issues related to instant beaming after getting the drop on someone without directly messing with things like bloom which could make mid-range less fun

[late carbon]

Flinch is terrible, at most is should cause a slight % increase in recoil.

Especially terrible when fighting support players that are able to flinch you 2-3 times after you've already put 5 bullets in them.

[fair summit]

Leave flinch for the milsim portion of the game. It has no business being in the normal gamemode.

[fast thistle]

Aimpunch should not be completely removed, at least not in the normal game mode we have currently.
Do whatever in the future casual mode thats been talked about, aimpunch could be removed entirely, or it could be an option that could be toggled on or off, or adjusted by server hosts.

Anyways, aimpunch could be used more creatively for weapon balancing purposes.

Reduce aimpunch overall. ✅ implemented
Greatly reduce aimpunch for SMGs. ✅ implemented
Reduce it a little, or keep it as is, for LMG's, Sniper Rifles and other "hard hitting weapons". ✅ implemented

It could be even more finetuned and adjusted for specific weapons within their respective categories.
This would preferably lead to the aimpunch stat (force?) to be displayed numerically on the weapon statistics screen and the ability to adjust it using muzzle attachments.

Suppressors could have reduced aimpunch to facilitate subsonic ammo.
Large barrels could have a higher aimpunch stat than other attachments.

This would also mean a greater differentiation between muzzle attachments.

⚠️ Again, i repeat so there can be no willfull misinterpretations or strawmanning ⚠️ reduce aimpunch across the board.

• Make aimpunch a tangible weapon stat.
• Adjust aimpunch accordingly for each weapon.
• Apply the aimpunch metric to muzzle attachments to further differentiation between them.

Edit: SMG's could probably have a little aimpunch, as a treat, added to a muzzle attachment that adds massive recoil.

[fair summit]

Nah

why bother leaving in aim punch for snipers? they fire way too slowly to benefit from it. even the DMRs.

why should LMGs get aim punch if we're removing it for all other automatic weapons? it seems like a misguided attempt to make them "suppress"

having aim punch being a stat that is used in weapon "balance" is just a colossal waste of time

[fast thistle]

For other snipers.

[fair summit]

right now, aim punch doesn't even matter in 90% of engagements. in 9% of engagements, it's just annoying as fuck, but doesn't change the outcome. and then in 1% of engagements, it'll change the outcome of the engagement.

[fair summit]

aim punch would matter even less there, given both sides fire extremely slowly

[fast thistle]

Reduction =/= Removal

I think im going to have to go back and edit my comment, somehow people still willfully misinterpret what is being said.

[fair summit]

and especially since snipers are going for headshots, aim punch matters even less as a result

[fair summit]

it sounded like you wanted to greatly reduce aim punch for all weapons except snipers and LMGs

at which point it's basically removing aim punch

for those classes of weapons

in any case, there's no reason why LMGs should have more aim punch than other weapons

regardless of what your suggestion is for the other weapon classes

[fast thistle]

Ok, if it doesnt matter than there is no problem.

If you get snuk up on while sniping, you should still have a chance at winning the engagement if you have the skill to hipfire or quickscope someone in close range.

Preserving some of the aimpunch would leave you with some possibility of that happening.

Either way, i have already clarified that i am talking about the normal ("MiLsIm" mode as others call it).

Remove aimpunch completely for the casual game mode, I dont mind. Im not going to play the game for the casual game mode that has less features and reduced complexity. Problem solved.

[fair summit]

the normal gamemode rn is the arcade gamemode lol

because the milsim gamemode is purely hypothetical right now....

and no, in your hypothetical, the aim punch hurts the sniper more than the attacker

assuming the current state of aim punch at least

[fast thistle]

No, take your time and read through my suggestion again. If anything feel confusing or unclear, let me know.

[fair summit]

or under your suggestion, if the attacker has a LMG

the sniper will only have time to make one shot-- if he misses, he's dead

except with aim punch, he can't make that return shot

because his aim is constantly being thrown off

[fair summit]

you said keep aim punch for hard-hitting weapons. so that's snipers. but then you also say you want to only reduce it a bit for LMGs. are LMGs hard-hitting? they have the same damage as assault rifles.

so basically you're saying

• keep the same aim punch for snipers
• slightly reduced aim punch for LMGs/ARs
• greatly reduced aim punch for SMGs

and my reply above, which still stands, is that this approach doesn't solve the problem

[fast thistle]

If you think its annoying as fuck, i hope your issues with this mechanic is solved when the easy mode/casual game mode is implemented.

Player choice and preferences are important, i hope you find what you are looking for when devs add more game modes or add metrics to customizable servers.

As in the thing i mentioned in the very start of my suggestion, aimpunch being adjustable or removed for server hosts

[fair summit]

nah, the default should be to have aim punch off

and if a community server admin has a fetish for aim punch

they can turn it on

[fast thistle]

Which is already the case.

Anyways, my suggestion has been made, devs will consider it if they will. Not wasting more time on trolls.

Have fun!

[fair summit]

haha i'm a troll because i replied to you with perfectly logical responses

who's the troll here?

typical discord moment, reply to someone in good faith with thought-out counter-arguments

and other dude's just like "stop trolling bro"

i'm done here

[fast thistle]

Yes, LMGs is widely considered to be a "hard hitting weapon".

Thank you for notifying me, i will rephrase the suggestion to make it more understandable.

[pastel shore]

This makes no sense, aim punch would completely prevent having any chance at accurate return fire as a sniper in your situation. Aim punch does not benefit sniper rifles in any form, especially in this example... your logic is completely incorrect

Removing aim punch in that example would give the sniper a better chance of return firing through skill and aim. Having aim punch removes his chance for that and turns it into a coin toss, instead... I'm not sure you are understanding the topic very well

[pastel shore]

what we have now IS the casual/easy mode... there is no hardcore mode in this game at this time.

[fair summit]

literally what i just said, but i don't think he gets it

[fast thistle]

I wouldnt say that 9% of a single players gunfight experiences warrants the removal of a gameplay mechanic.

[pastel shore]

Idk where 9% comes from, aim punch is relevant in every single engagement where you are at least on your opponents screen. The only time it's irrelevant is when you are shooting someone in the back/side and they die before they turn to you.

I would say it's significantly more than 9% of fights being affected.

[fast thistle]

Ok, then i dont think it should be removed from casual/easy mode.
Sorry @fair summit

Anyways, back to topic.
Bottomline of my suggestion:

• make aimpunch a tangible stat.
• Adjust this stat for each individual weapon.
• make the stat modifiable by means of muzzle attachment.

Done.

[fast thistle]

My subjective opinion, there is.
The slow ADS time, wide spread and the nature of LMGs being high caliber weapons.

Just as SMG should have low aimpunch due to their smaller caliber, low recoil and high rate of fire.

Same as how the Deagle should aimpunch more than a full auto Glock18.

[fair summit]

out of my ass, because for obvious reasons, it's impossible to quantify the effect of aim punch in the game. so my point is that in my very unscientific and subjective experience, aim punch actually doesn't matter too much because either i'm dead, or my target is dead.

so it begs the question why the fuck is aim punch even in the game?

[fast thistle]

Aimpunch from sniper rifles is already a thing right now. Returning fire is possible in the game right now.

As for your idea of removing aimpunch to return fire:
Find better cover, position yourself smarter, aim and fire back faster.
Aimpunch is a consequence of getting hit. I like this mechanic, i just want it to be more tangible.
And with my suggestion, the mechanic would be something that could mean more differentiation between weapons and attachments.

Example:
Some of those off-meta weapons with high recoil = give them more aimpunch to give them a competative edge.

If you dont agree. Then we'd have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[fast thistle]

It comes from the comment i was responding to: #1133360306278645810 message

[soft crest]

It should be lesser at ranged especially from SMGs. Idk why as a person 150m+ out is getting my camera absolutely thrown from a random smg when scoped in

[fast thistle]

If it doesnt matter, then the mechanic shouldnt bother you.

[fast thistle]

Yes, the distance the bullet has travelled should be considered.

This could very well be a factor when adjusting the aimpunch statistics for weapons and attachments individually, and would help mitigate some of the "concerns" other people raised about snipers.

[soft crest]

idk what the degree is when getting sniped because I only snipe (It's a snipe or get sniped game when shooting other snipers) so idk how bad it really is. All ik is when people spray towards me with their automatics the flinch is so severe sometimes depending on where I get shot and how much damage

[fickle cedar]

This mechanic is so frustrating to get hit by it makes dying to mines more satisfying than shooting someone

Remove this, every gunfight is already a coin toss as it is, game is chaotic enough, not being able to shoot back and close to the target makes it ever so frustrating

[fervent star]

it feels like it punishes the player for aiming for the head

[fast thistle]

Its not as bad as people claim it is, they just being argumentative for oppositions sake.

[latent wagon]

The gunplay overall is great but it feels incredibly frustrating and unsatisfying when your aim gets thrown off by aim punch. Full stop. I know in this discussion there has been talk about it being used for balance but I think that when balance decisions get in the way of things being fun/satisfying that decision is flawed in some way.

[modern coral]

I don't find aimpunch an enjoyable mechanic. I wouldn't mind if only LMGs had aimpunch to give utility to Support (assuming they can never replenish their armor), but other than that, I would like it removed from the game entirely.

[fickle cedar]

Dont understand how people find getting hit off your target making you lose a 1v1 that you are supposed to win enjoyable

[storm halo]

For me aimpunch lags my PC out for solid 1.5 s, only happens with high rpm guns like vector, so remove it or tune it down a lot

[little thicket]

Aimpunch should just go for SMGs as a whole.
And, tbh, from anything that isn't a DMR and an LMG.

[flint maple]

I feel like flinch is straight up rng

[lofty harbor]

aimpunch makes me wanna break something

[green dragon]

aim punch feels like you're being electrocuted

[soft crest]

Some would say makes you wanna punch something

[lofty harbor]

its such an unfun mechanic

[cosmic night]

I'd rather have them replace aim punch with suppression tbh

[plucky raptor]

terrible mechanic and doesn't make for cohesive gameplay

Extremely frustrating when it happens to you

Zero feedback you're doing it to others

The entire mechanic as a result feels extremely random and horrible when it occurs

[wet field]

Remove Aim punch , its annoying and u cant fight back most of the times.

[signal tangle]

aim punch based weapon caliber minus armor value, and give proper suppression like in red storm rising 2.

[lofty harbor]

or just remove aimpunch and were all happy

[little thicket]

I wish.

Red Orchestra/Rising Storm were the apex of the shooter genre

[signal tangle]

removing aimpunch would just make SMGs more op because its even easier to land shot though. you sure you want that?

[lofty harbor]

no it wont

[signal tangle]

we've had this conversation before with cod. that already happened. it just makes high firerate weapons more effective.

[lofty harbor]

the reason i will pick smgs over ARs is because of firerate. If my aim gets thrown off while using a gun with a low firerate i will pick the one with higher firerate, so i have a higher chance of hitting some shots

i hope you get what i mean, english is not my native language

[signal tangle]

I understand. but shooters have had this conversation before. COD especially. removing aimpunch ended up just making the guns that were already meta, even more meta because the problems of recoil plus aimpunch was suddenly negated.

these guns already have lower recoil, removing the one thing that actually makes them less accurate would be a problem

[lofty harbor]

But there are otherwise of nerfing smgs, you can for example change the bullet damage over distance, recoil, accuracy. Having aimpunch in the game makes it unpredictable and random. You cannot counter aimpunch you cannot improve. Its just frustrating

[signal tangle]

hence the caliber + armor should be what defines the aimpunch. heavy armor + a low cal weapon like an smg means very little aimpunch. meanwhile light armor vs an ar or battle rifle would mean significantly more aimpunch.

[signal tangle]

aim punch follows a pattern my friend

it goes up and then up and left, up, then up and left

[lofty harbor]

you still cannot counter it, and it depends on when you get hit. So it is random

[exotic wing]

If you remove aimpunch you add suppression in some form. Being able to mag dump a sniper and for them to just stand there and take it while they line up a headshot is ridiculous

[signal tangle]

that's not what random means? it follows a pattern and matter where you get hit is the exact oppostie of random.

[signal tangle]

suppression needs to be gacho

[lofty harbor]

but you cannot predict when the enemy hits you.

[signal tangle]

thats still not random. you also take less damage to legs and arms I believe. so less aimpunch.

[lofty harbor]

im not gonna argue over this with you. You cannot counter aimpunch, it is way too unpredicable. Proof me wrong by sending a video of you countering it

[signal tangle]

the problem is, is that if you try and fix SMGs by removing aimpunch you just make snipers COD snipers because they have nothing to counter them now.

[signal tangle]

it follows a pattern

learn the pattern, adjust your aim

use it to your advantage

[lofty harbor]

it happens in less than a second

[signal tangle]

with light armor sure. if my guns up, I can win with 2 shots, 3 in worst case because I can hit a headshot to finish them off because of their own aimpunch.

adjust aim and don't sprint everywhere and you can win more fights in cqb

especially since they are probobly sprinting at you and have their gun down, which buys you a quarter of a second

[lofty harbor]

sure

send proof then

[exotic wing]

You could also make aimpunch headshots only

[signal tangle]

would be a massive buff to snipers

[exotic wing]

what

implying it even bothers them at all right now

[signal tangle]

is literally testable, easily in fact. try it out yourself, see how it works.

[green dragon]

Aimpunch if done right can be a godsend

In real life you would get thrown off as well if you'd get hit

The TTK is already pretty low

[signal tangle]

it does if you hit them. buying you time. headhsots only? they'll just keep lining you up as you hit them, unless you happen to be a sniper/countersniping them

[lofty harbor]

alright, so the average human reaction time is 250ms
this is a random clip i found on this discord, you can see 2 flinches happening in a span of around 300ms, you cannot tell me a normal human can counter both of these flinches

[exotic wing]

https://youtu.be/jBeK7t5kMcA?t=27 BF4 being regarded as one of the best battlefield-type games of all time, somehow suppression doesn't exist for any other game because...?

[exotic wing]

Hes using a crosshair

Found the issue

[lofty harbor]

wtf?

[signal tangle]

my man, his gun was off the target before he even got hit.

that was also 50m+ away, not exactly cqb.

[lofty harbor]

maybe in this clip, but the speed in general is just way to fast for the human brain to react to, you cant argue with that

[signal tangle]

yes, if you are reacting to it. What I am doing and saying for you to do in CQB, is plan for it. if you go for headshots, aimpunch will make you miss. if you aim to the enemies upper chest on their left side(your right if they are facing you), or even just center, you can win with more guns because many ar have a faster ttk than the smgs, however you have less chance to hit. so you need to mitigate your chance of missing before the first shot is even fired.

if you are reacting to getting hit in the game, even in general, you are likely not going to win the fight unless you are one of those movement gods(or in exo)

[lofty harbor]

might be true, but aimpunch is not a big problem in cqb since your targets are big. If were talking mid distance, there is absolutely no way to counter nor to react to aimpunch. The whole firefight is based on luck or on whoever shoots first wins

[signal tangle]

yes. which is how it should work. its almost like getting shot first should be a detriment. and People are complain about it in cqb where firerate is king. once you get to mid distance, ars are still better then. you shouldn't be challenging someone after you got shot without resetting from cover anyway. Try doing that, you'll live alot longer.

[lofty harbor]

yes maybe thats how aimpunch "should work" but i prefer my games to require skill to play and not luck, at least in these critical aspects. This is the whole reason this thread exists. You can have you opinion that i couldnt disagree more with

[signal tangle]

skill also include positioning and use of cover and flanks, not just gunplay

[lofty harbor]

yes but even with the best positioning on this planet , you will get into head on firefights and then its luck based

[signal tangle]

its really not, at anything but cqb. because aimpunch is bad due to firerate and getting hit quickly, which doesn't happen often at 75+ meters.

[tulip dome]

This clip actually illustrates why this whole thread is so comically pointless to me. Flinch or not, you were dead anyway. Like, the best you could hope for without flinch in a situation where it would have made a difference is that you both die thanks to bullet travel time. Sounds fun.

[lofty harbor]

if you take it out of context maybe. But for the sake of the point i was trying to make i just needed a video showing aimpunch, no matter which direction the player was facing

[cerulean cove]

Uh, I saw some guy on reddit wrote that flinch depends on what weapon U are holding in that moment. Is it true?

[signal tangle]

yes and no

its currently applied by hits, so a faster firerate weapon will hit faster, making the aimpunch a lot worse

[cerulean cove]

hm

[cerulean cove]

so if you are using some AR or DMR flinch will be more powerful when u get hit?

[signal tangle]

no, that's what we want to happen, bigger caliber means more flinch, with armro negating some of that

[cerulean cove]

ye

[signal tangle]

right now a 1800 rpm glock will flinch you more than a 600 rpm Scar.

[cerulean cove]

i see

just uh

can i send a screen?

of message

[signal tangle]

I mean I ain't a mod, I think you can as long as it pertains to this thread?

[cerulean cove]

kk

[green dragon]

slower firing weapons should frankly give orders of magnitude more aimpunch to their recipient. This would let semi-autos and slow firing weapons stand a chance. So a Mk14 EBR would give like 5x the aim punch of a vector

[twilit mauve]

In theory, aim punch should be benefit the first one shooting. This'd make the aggressor have the upper hand. This, however, does not happen as is in practice. As aim punch is randomized, it has a random chance to benefit either player. I heavily disagree in giving the aggressor even more advantage than actually having the first shot, which is powerful enough, but I firmly believe that, in its current implementation, it's just a layer of randomness that obfuscates legitimate engagements and achieves no design goals, whether I agree with them or not.

[signal tangle]

simpler damage value minus armor value might be the easiest to code

[signal tangle]

aim punch follows a pattern my friend.

[twilit mauve]

can you describe it?

what kind of pattern?

I haven't found any

[signal tangle]

Up and up and left. is what I have seen. 1-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-1-2 and so on

[cerulean cove]

So I'm talking about second indent. Is it really work like that in game now?

[signal tangle]

Up - up -up and slight left, up - up and left, and then reset

[twilit mauve]

I haven't noticed such pattern and we humans are very biased towards seeing patterns in places where they aren't, so I'd grab what you say with a grain of salt. Is each impulse constant? Or does the pixel displacement vary?

I felt it varies

[signal tangle]

not that I know of, it might not be as noticable with SMGs simply because you are in cqb using low power scopes or just hip firing

[twilit mauve]

I haven't been able to properly counter aim punch and I'm a decently skilled shooter player. Pro players/really great players I know can't, as well.

Would you please provide video evidence of you countering, consistently, aim punch?

If possible

[cerulean cove]

okay, ty for answer ;p

I will try to test it

[signal tangle]

hmm, well pixels might vary, but in cqc those pixels are never far off from the general location, and I think those variations are based on sway.

[twilit mauve]

it was a trap question, I made you acknowledge that it's rng. See, if pixel displacement isn't constant it follows by necessity that it cannot be predicted, at least in certain instances

[signal tangle]

I never really record anything, and when I try it just fails to capture anything but an occasional still image. still trying to figure out why.

[signal tangle]

Pixel variations of negligible varity don't disprove anything

[twilit mauve]

negligible

if it's negligible, why do we have a legion of players being annoyed at aim punch?

seems pretty big a displacement to me

[signal tangle]

aimpunch is a problem in CQC. the variations of pixels would not matter in that scenario.

because CQC is heavily favored to high firerate as it is

and aimpunch as it is currently favors it even more.

you can plan around it

[twilit mauve]

How is aim punch worse in CQC? Wouldn't it be better? The target is bigger

At range where enemies cover fewer pixels, a displacement is more noticeable

[signal tangle]

but its an advantage you want have if your gun is on the slower end

[signal tangle]

yes, but cqc is where firerate is simply king, and hits more often, meaning even more aimpunch

hence the "vector op" calls.

cause high firate, good recoil, in cqc + aimpunch?

if your not ready to counter before they show up you lose

once you get past 50 meters, maybe closer to 75, aimpunch isn't as bad because you're not getting hit as fast

[twilit mauve]

Yeah, I wholeheartedly disagree with pretty much everything you've said since you've arrived. Don't think we could come to an agreement, but that's OK. I think I already gave my feedback.

[signal tangle]

my friend, you simply want the game to become cod.

[twilit mauve]

Hmm, a personal attack in form of a non sequitur fallacy

Isn't it the quintessential Internet reply

What's next, telling me it's a skill issue? That's the next step. Luckily the mod already stated that's not allowed, thankfully.

[signal tangle]

no I mean that legitimately.

everything you said is good is what COD has done.

[twilit mauve]

So you mean legitimately to use a non sequitur?

You're confessing to be wrong?

Pleasant surprise

OK, enough with the sarcasm, I'm just being condescending. I'm off, already said my piece.

[runic ridge]

Aimpunch benefits higher RoF weapons by its nature so it further contributes to imbalance with high rof guns like say vector.

Maybe for LMGs I can see it having a purpose and its also good for keeping snipers in check too

[twilit mauve]

It's like going back to 2013 Planetside 2 lol

Of course flinch is a problem

It's one of those design choices that are slowly dying down over the years

[runic ridge]

I do not mind when its used in a smart way like its fine to have it on say vehicle 50 cal MG

[still bay]

I don't think it necessarily has to be removed, but i believed it has to be toned down based the caliber if your weapon

[runic ridge]

I would also be okay with having it on heavier MGs like M249/Ultimax style guns since it makes sense to give support an edge somewhere

[signal tangle]

My original point ftr.

[runic ridge]

No, suppression and aimpunch are different things. And rewarding people for missing shots would be terrible in a game with 250 players. You'd get suppressed for existing.

[signal tangle]

No, you don't. you push enemies shooting at you, snipers can line up headshots despite bullets flying all around them. suppression in this game is a joke and people don't even know its already in the game.

[runic ridge]

Why don't you play your dead milsim games if you want suppression that badly

Honest question

Why do you all keep coming here making demands and complaints but the games that have what you want, you don't play those

[fleet pond]

Not wanting aim flinch has nothing to do with supression, are you mentally ill?

[tulip dome]

Because they have stupidly demanding system requirements that mean only people with computers worth several thousands of dollars can play them?

[fleet pond]

two completely seperate game mechanics that have nothing to do with each other

[runic ridge]

So you're a broke kid that wants to play milsim in your mom's basement?

There is so many of you that you're a stereotype on your own

[fleet pond]

Why do you even engage that halfwit on such a nonsense point? Milsims are irrelevant to the conversation

[signal tangle]

calling RSR2 milsim is funny as hell.

[fleet pond]

give him the 10 minutes he needs to form a coherent thought, he's still typing

[signal tangle]

yep.

[runic ridge]

Stereotypical milsimmer comment said about pretty much every milsim flavor game in the market, including arma and squad.

Nobody cares what term you coin for it

[signal tangle]

arma and squad are milsim though?

RSR2 is an arcade game

the only thing realistic its got is ttk where it only takes one or two shots to kill someone

[runic ridge]

yeah

cause you would totally know what is real

[signal tangle]

I don't think you know what Milsim is

[runic ridge]

from your mom's basement you have mastered warfare clearly

[signal tangle]

one or two shots to the chest in nam you moron. they didn't have body armor

ah just trolling I see

fuck off then

[runic ridge]

Yeah nam vet here lmao

fucking simmers

[tulip dome]

Just block and report. :)

[runic ridge]

keep living in your lala land

Go from game to game

make your ridicilous demands

kill the game and move onto the next

[signal tangle]

ah did. He seems to think getting shot in the chest by 5.56 or 7.62 would not kill someone

[fleet pond]

Going into a thread about aim punch to argue/complain about things that have nothing to do with aim punch

[runic ridge]

Like you arguing about supression?

[fleet pond]

Also where'd the 500+ green votes on this feedback go?

ctrl+F "supression" and find me talking about it

Flinch has nothing in common with supression

two completely different game mechanics

[signal tangle]

was talking about ways to fix and or alter aim-punch. and flinch does things similar to suppression.

[runic ridge]

read clown

[signal tangle]

oh is he still here?

[fleet pond]

You do realize posts are tagged with peoples username right?

[tulip dome]

I believe the most recent iteration of suppression in Squad does add some flinch though? Not for or against, just saying they can actually be related. Of course vast majority of comments here are against, so people probably wouldn't want even more sources of flinch being added.

[runic ridge]

is that why you're defending his post like its your virginity? No one will take it away from you bud.

[fleet pond]

Just going to block you, not really interested in going over some banal point because you're too inbred to move on from suppression

[runic ridge]

oh no, so sad.

you little oxygen thief

[fleet pond]

If you wanted discussion, you would have found it

Just need to mentally wank yourself off while never getting to a point

[runic ridge]

Says the oxygen thief who started the talk by insulting me 🙂

[fleet pond]

Because you are inbred, when you respond to someone @ them

Last one from me, now you are gone

[runic ridge]

Lmao

[green dragon]

Stop being manchildren and kiss. These threads are to be constructive, not just a duplicate of #battlebit-eng

[fair summit]

wrote a copypasta suggestion on flinch: https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/15abkgz/comment/jtjsi0b/?context=3

summarizing my thoughts on it

[fleet pond]

I wouldn't want any sort of flinch in a shooting game. Some sort of supression effect is fine in small bits. The idea that fights in this game are either entirely decided by either getting the drop on someone or someone getting a favorable diceroll on the flinch sucks the fun out of it

[fleet pond]

you're about 5 minutes late, go play pretend internet janitor elsewhere

[runic ridge]

well written and I agree for the most part.

[fair summit]

https://tenor.com/view/fan-average-yelling-british-argument-gif-20849454

me ranting about flinch

[tulip dome]

I would argue that getting the drop on someone should indeed be a major factor in winning any engagement :P But I agree that it is the randomness of flinch what can make it feel unfair.

[fleet pond]

But i'm not saying it shouldn't be the winning factor, what I'm saying is there are two mechanics in place that parastically play off each other, aimpunch and low TTK

Low TTK is fine on its own, there is already another mechanic solely designed around artificially inflating it (armor)

[rotund solar]

ive died like this a few times. i was prone with an lmg dude ran past me i shot him in the back of the head knocked his helmet off and he whipped around with a vector and killed me

[fleet pond]

Low TTK is in place so the person who shoots you first has a good chance of winning the fight. Aim punch tries to do that but ends up falling flat on its face more often than not.

[signal tangle]

lmg dude.... Vector?

[rotund solar]

my bad forgot punctuation. i was prone with an LMG and the dude ran past me

[signal tangle]

ah. yeah I have no clue how that happened then.

[signal tangle]

light armor movement is a bitch as well. doesn't hel matters.

[cyan rain]

I think it scaling off bullet damage would be an interesting thing to try out

[signal tangle]

it would. but I think other systems would need to be altered to make it actually worthwhile.

[runic ridge]

Its just not a very big problem overall because TTK is so fast but it does break SMGs because there is no recoil, inaccuracy or damage fall-off in place to keep them in check. Result is you take an MP5 and beam someone across 100 meters.

[signal tangle]

they confirmed smg maximum effective to 68 meters

[runic ridge]

across the board?

[signal tangle]

across whole class, all smgs

[fair summit]

yeah i talk about this in my post. i agree it's not a huge problem overall, because most of the time it doesn't even matter. so my point is why even include the mechanic, when it usually doesn't matter, and when it does, it's annoying as fuck

[runic ridge]

Thats a bit harsh I'd rather do it different per weapon but they can dial that in later

68m is still pretty far tho

[fleet pond]

you won't notice when aimpunch does anything in your favor, you will notice when it gets you killed despite doing everything correct

[signal tangle]

most smgs maximum effective should have been about 70 cept for the 45acp boys which have it at 120. so a slight nerf to the smaller guns, while vector and ump get it lowered quite a bit. I think its all good for the class

[signal tangle]

3d aimpunch reactions when?

[runic ridge]

If it was up to me I would rather make it headshot only for skill expression and make intensity scale with damage/rof of the gun. I like the way it works in CS for example.

[signal tangle]

snipers though? they already just sit with your bullets flying by them to line up a headshot.

[pastel shore]

suppression is even worse than flinch, don't even suggest it, it's one of the universally most hated mechanics in FPS games.

There's a reason no one is playing the mil-sim games, it's because all the obnoxious combined mechanics make the games NOT FUN. Stop trying to suggest those features. BB has a good formula as is, just needs to reign in flinch(which was only added in its current state on game release,FYI, before it was fine) and adjust a few things.

The only weapon that should flinch is sniper rifles(as in, you are holding a sniper rifle, get hit, you get flinched). That's the only way to keep snipers, specifically, somewhat balanced, as otherwise they are extremely dominant, which is exactly why flinch was added in release to begin with, snipers in playtests were too overbearing. It just happens that flinch ruins every non-sniper interaction in it's current state.

[signal tangle]

unless you got a BR or sniper yourself, its worthless.

[signal tangle]

Bf4 would say otherwise

[cyan rain]

Would hope to see it in the actual hardcore mode for those of us who enjoy milsim

[pastel shore]

1. remove it completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch, with a small cooldown(1 flinch every 300 ms at most, which would normalize how often weapons of different RPMS aim punch).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a short cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

My suggestions, in order of what I would prefer, personally.

[signal tangle]

funnily enough, suppression as you are thinking of is not a milsim mechnic. its an arcade game mechanic. Milsim gams give you what is currently in BB, a blur at the edge of your screens and thats it.

[pastel shore]

suppression was fucking DESPISED in battlefield 4, it was literally the single most univesrally hated feature in BF4

[runic ridge]

Thats a fair question. The thing is snipers who are scoped in will naturally have effects like recoil and aimpunch multiplied because their field of view is so zoomed in

This is already kinda how it works

[signal tangle]

not true but keep believing that.

[pastel shore]

The devs just completely refused to listen to the community regarding that. BF4 was good despite that feature, but would've been significantly better if they reworked suppression

[pastel shore]

yes, it fucking was. Literally a good 1/4 the complaints about the games shooting was suppression. It reduced the accuracy of your gun DRAMATICALLY, often to the point where it was literally spray and pray because the cone of where your bullets could land was as large as the enemy.

[runic ridge]

Suppresion going from BF3 to 4 was heavily cut down because everyone despised it in BF3

And the suppression in BF3 was also nerfed within its lifespan because it was ridicilous

[signal tangle]

yeah, but if you don't hit them, I.e have a long range weapon like a BR, purpose built AR, DMR or sniper, its unlikley hitting a sniper at distance will be luck of the draw, all while they can line up on you with impunity

[pastel shore]

regardless, leave it the hell out of this discussion. Flinch needs to be removed or dramatically reduced, with the exception of snipers to prevent them from becoming OP.

[signal tangle]

not the case unless you were hipfiring like a moron

[runic ridge]

I think ARs are already fantastic at shooting back snipers

[pastel shore]

I'm not going to argue with you over facts on a topic that is irrelevant. Go play squad if you want suppression so you can miss to your hearts content and pretend you're being helpful.

[signal tangle]

the BRs in the ar catagory are kinda the only ones that can do that easily beyond 500 meters.

[runic ridge]

There is... no reason for you to take that engagement at 500m though

Just like in BF4 you can just... move closer

[signal tangle]

lots of maps have open ground you got to cross

I mean I guess you can human wave across?

[runic ridge]

do a zig zag pop a smoke run through some cover and now its 200 meters.

[pastel shore]

unfortunately, the way blue zones work, a ton of snipers just sit in their blue zone and you can't get close enough to flank.

Personally, I want snipers/vehicle main weapons straight up disabled in blue zones so they are forced to actually enter the battlefield.

Every map has a ton of playable area outside the safe zone to the sides of objectives, snipers should be using those, not sitting in the blue zone.

[runic ridge]

Thats fair and something I think should be adressed separately.

[signal tangle]

sure buddy. pretty relevant since its tied in with flinch as it is. they already said they will be increasing the use of suppression.

[signal tangle]

I've seen snipers in blue zones, but vehicles? on what maps?

[placid dagger]

there's a whole thread named "people are using tanks as snipers"

[signal tangle]

well sniping with tanks(their intended purpose) is one thing

[placid dagger]

it's not uncommon to see tanks sit all the way back and "snipe"

[signal tangle]

sitting in the blue zone with a tank is another

[green dragon]

there's a dude named Jay who plagues NA servers with BTR camping at their HQ and being an asshat in chat

[cyan rain]

Good point about flinch with snipers though

[rotund solar]

i think i saw in the updates they patched an OP tank spot on one map

[signal tangle]

oh.. yeah i did see the unlimted ammo spot being patched

[pastel shore]

there's a ton of pics on reddit of players sitting in blue zone with tank, a few feet out of the "safe" zone. They get 120-0 scores at the end because it's literally impossible to kill them, you can't C4 them(due to being in blue zone), and it would take coordinating a squad to all hit with RPGs at the same time, but if they see that, they just back up a foot and they are invincible and can rearm and repair with 0 risk.

Snipers sit in blue zone a ton, especially in game modes like rush, often to the point where it's literally impossible to push up because too many people on your own team are sitting in the blue zone and gaining map control is impossible.

[runic ridge]

Yeah I've had to deal with those

I'd have to coordinate a squad with tandems to even kill them

[fleet pond]

What map can you camp like that and get that many kills?

[runic ridge]

And like if you dont time it correctly or not instantly nuke the tank it will just escape to base and repair

[green dragon]

azagor is fucking terrible about vehicle camping on the north side

[signal tangle]

damn, am glad I have yet to find a tank doing that. sure They are on mountains and stuff, but at least I can flank and/or run up on them

[fleet pond]

Ah Azagor, I leave that map 90 percent of the time

[green dragon]

The vehicle camping doesn't happen there too often but that's how I was introduced to Jay

It's by far the most exploitable map if your HQ is north side

[fleet pond]

I could definitely see that considering south has no good location for vehicles. The idea that you can camp base and get 100+ kills though on any other map is suspect

[green dragon]

it happens on lonovo too to an extent but the side it happens most on has a problem with getting spawncamped by the enemy team so it feels more acceptable

[royal skiff]

I'm not going to read all 700 messages to see if someone already mentioned this, but I can't stand the way flinch disadvantages low-RPM guns even at the longer ranges which they should sweep without issue.

Should I make up for that with positioning, should I improve my aim, etc., yes. But I don't think a Vector should be winning a spraydown head to head against an AUG at 120m because it can put 2 bullets in me for every 1 I fire and that means I can't keep my reticle on them because of the flinch. It's inane and deflating.

Edit: I also realize aimpunch is an intangible benefit for me when it works in my favor, and I have no idea how often that's happening. Even if that's the case, I'd still rather experience what happens with it reduced drastically (if not removed entirely!) and make my judgment at that point.

[pastel shore]

Yep, this was mentioned already, and I take this into account with my suggestions as well.

#1133360306278645810 message

[royal skiff]

Excellent

[hollow olive]

It excessively penalises the player that gets shot first, essentially removing any hope of firing back. From one hand, I understand that positioning is also a skill and should be rewarded, but shooting first is already a big enough advantage as the TTK is so low.

Removing this mechanic would allow outplays based on aim (which is also another important skill).

[pastel shore]

important to note that bb has a huge number of players, between 32 and 127, per team. In addition, the map design is such that there are A LOT of angles to check - an impossible amount. So being unable to return fire at all due to aim punch is much more common and frustrating, as it's very difficult to move at all without being in someone's sightline.

[twilit perch]

I hate that mechanics. I hate when some random I can't controll events distrupts my ability to control my character. Please tune it down, let me kill target I deserved to kill without roulete.

[mint token]

People say that aim flinch gives advantage to whoever shoots you first, and act like that's a problem. That's the point.

When you receive fire, the expected action to take is to take cover and reassess the situation; not stand there and try to shoot back.

This happens in the span of half a second but it's part of the combat flow for most games that are even slightly slower than CoD.

That being said, I agree the calculations/severity of aim flinch needs to be adjusted.

The "simplest" solution to start with would be to scale flinch with damage received. This would automatically make SMGs and long range shots cause less flinch.

It wouldn't necessarily be a linear curve, but that's the jist.

I think it's absurd that so many people are asking for it to be removed entirely.

It's something I categorize as "one-way feedback", where players only consider the proposed change from their point of view, where conditions for the change are ideal for them. They don't consider the potential negatives it would have for them personally when an enemy benefits from the change.

[steep surge]

TLDR: So we got options. Take it down a notch, take it down a notch and give it cooldown, completely remove it, or leave it as is and add numerical values with counter play.
IDK how many people in game are in discord, but the folks in the discord do not seem to like aim punch due to it's rng directional flinch causing your aim to whiff TOO substantially which is a fair complaint, getting the first shot on someone should get you a kill (not 180'ed and shot with 1 bullet that forces flinch and then you die because TTK is so low.)
Complete removal would enable snipers to dominate at range because there is no stopping a quick peeking sniper who can hit shots and any return fire wouldn't cause them to flinch and miss. Which is why some people want snipers to retain flinch.
Turning it down relieves some issues, adding a cooldown prevents fast rpm guns from being unfightable.
Nobody wants to leave it as is (people who only want smg's flinch reduced at the minimum) so if there is to be no change, show everyone what weapon has most flinch and give counter play options that currently don't exist. This way people are able to reduce their flinch for a trade-off

[mint token]

Cooldown: Unintuitive and artificial
Only making snipers experience flinch: Inconsistent

Something that has the same effect as the cooldown while feeling more natural would be what I call "flinch decay", where receiving a lot of flinch/damage rapidly would reduce the flinch effect from consecutive shots in a burst. This effect would reset very quickly, like half a second or less. You could say this would be your soldier "bracing" himself from further shots.

For anyone that plays fighting games, it would sort of be like how some of them have a mechanic where a character being juggled in a combo gets "heavier".

Personally I think it would feel really weird if most weapons don't have any flinch at all when getting shot. There's something to be said about visual feedback.

[steep surge]

That's just the general consensus mate. People don't like getting shot at while they stand in the open and shoot someone and get shot from somewhere else causing them to drop their kill. You're getting 2v1'ed you shouldn't be winning that but flinch also gives YOU a chance because you can force the first guy to whiff and maybe the 2nd guys get's flinched from somewhere else. Too many what if's and people don't like that

[brittle wraith]

Remove it entirely, i don't see why games still do this unless the game is actually classified as a ''milsim/hardcore shooter''. It just puts another huge RNG element on the core gunplay, 2 people firing at eachother and whoever gets the best roll on the aimpunch table wins? not to mention it makes guns with already huge amounts of horizontal recoil just unplayable. You're already being thrown offcentre by its heavy core stats now add a rng layer on top of it also throwing you offcenter even further, you're coming close to spinning 360s in this game when you get hit using a scar or whatever. Y'all devs need to choose a direction as to what you want your game to be, do we classify our game as a hardcore shooter or do we classify as a arcade shooter akin to cod/battlefield.

[mint token]

...Don't CoD and BF also have aim flinch?

There's a reason almost every shooter game has aim flinch of some sort, and I can guarantee you that it's not out of tradition or something like that. It's a tangible balancing mechanic. It's one of the mechanics that prevents gunplay and combat from literally being just "aim at enemy and hold trigger".

[astral storm]

I remember BF3 (maybe 4 too) having supression where if a shot missed you just barely, your CoF would increase. On BBR that’s the accuracy stat on guns

[mint token]

Yes, and your aim does get disrupted when you get directly shot as well.

[humble nest]

I would love to see lmgs get some flavor of suppression to encourage them to dump ammo at stuff, its a lot of fun

but you usually just die and its way better to not do it XD

[mint token]

Having LMGs cause more aim flinch would work as a suppression mechanic, and one that is more "natural".

[astral storm]

IMO flinch should be something only high power guns should do in a significant way. SMGs, PDWs and carbines have no business dealing the amount of flinch they do currently

[mint token]

Knowing that the LMG laying down suppressive fire would mess up your ability to aim at them should convince players to keep their head down and consider options other than just peeking the corner and facetanking the shots.

(Of course there are players who will stubbornly try anyways, but that would be on them.)

The fact that aim flinch is tied to the weapon you're holding rather than the weapon you're being shot by makes me think that it's a repurposed recoil value.

[tulip dome]

I agree that suppression mechanics in most games feel artificial because they force your character to "act scared" despite the fact you are not. However, LMGs causing more aim flinch is irrelevant if you can't actually hit someone with them, so they would need a series of changes to deliver on that purpose, like buffing the bipod, projectile speeds and general accuracy.

Without that, trying to "keep people down" just results in a harmless spray of bullets that immediately gives your position away.

[late sparrow]

nah bipod should stay dead like it is, tone down horizontal recoil and raise vertical since it actually controllable and i dont see the point of suppression in this game

[cloud marten]

I’m a bit late to the party, but has anyone mentioned the idea of having the armor worn impact the amount of aimpunch recieved?

Making heavy armor reduce aimpunch would help balance aimpunch as well as give heavy armor a use after all the armor is gone.

[lofty harbor]

shouldnt armor make the aimpunch more intense? since the force stopped?

[cloud marten]

That seems… wrong. From a irl perspective I don’t think so, and from an in game perspective that would feel super bad

[lofty harbor]

yea

[cloud marten]

I could be wrong about the irl plates, but im no ballistics expert

[lofty harbor]

well the bullet would be passing through you with not armour leaving little force applied on your body

with armor the full force would be spread on your cheast

chest

[cloud marten]

I mean there’s a ton of variables about dispersal of kinetic energy that varies with bullet type and guns, but from a gameplay perspective more armor should = not as bad getting shot at compared to no armor

[mint token]

There's also the mass of armor to consider.

[pastel shore]

irl, if the plate blocks the bullet without deformation, you likely won't even feel the shot. Some plates can handle 7.62x51 without issue, there's a video on youtube of a guy who demonstrates his armor by being shot point blank by an FAL in the chest and he barely flinches. Says it felt less than a punch.

There's also a ton of accounts from soldiers who didn't realize they got hit at all, only to find their plates had blocked numerous bullets after the missions.

Smaller calibers, like pistols rounds, would be blocked to the point where the person with armor might not even notice, assuming they all hit plate that was rated for it, as long as no deformation occurs. You could, in theory, unload an entire mag into the chest of someone and they would barely feel it.

Ofc, we don't want armor to work like that, nor do we want to tie flinch to armor in battlebit, specifically because it's a mess balance wise and armor is something only fresh spawns have, and can't be replenished, and would cause more balance problems if they COULD be replenished(the goal of armor at this time is to help worse players by giving them an HP advantage against better players).

For now, though, just worry about flinch as a mechanic in battlebit specifically, don't worry about bringing IRL stuff into it or anything.

Suppression, also, is an awful idea, players should not be rewarded for missing their shots by giving their opponents a debuff. Suppression is one of the most hated mechanics in FPS games, right up there with excessive aim punch.

[plush flare]

I feel like anything in a game that interferes with the player having full control over their character and inputs is not a good mechanic ✋

[jade crater]

I know people don't like aim punch, but I wonder if they understand how much they're going to be getting domed if they remove the ability to interrupt a snipers aim. As soon as you ads you're an easy target and then only saving grace is you being able to throw off their aim.

[cloud marten]

To clarify, I meant Aimpunch being tied to armor as in the armor class of light/medium/heavy/exo like the reverse of movement speed, as a sort of passive effect/reduction of aimpunch

[jade crater]

that's a blanket statement dude, flashbangs, smoke?

[little thicket]

Smoke changes your aimpoint? 💀

[jade crater]

naw i meant it removes vision, it prevents you from countering

[sterile plinth]

Aim punch could be a great way to increase the viability of typically less powerful weapons that have low rate of fire.

The UMP, SCAR, DMRs, and LMGs would be much better at mid-range fights if the other person had to readjust their aim while being hit.

With it being on everything, it just makes having a high rate of fire all but guarantee you win if you connect with your shots first.

[jade crater]

i think the reverse would be better, the gun you're carry determines the the aim punch. smgs/snipers recieving high aim punch, ar's/lmg recieve low/no aim punch. If you tie it to bullet caliber alone you're going to have snipers that are unnaffected by pot shots and they're going to become oppressive. If you try to ads without aim punch vs a sniper, you're going to get shot in the face.

[sterile plinth]

I'm not using caliber at all. I don't think it ever matter when it comes to balance.

Your suggestion would literally mean that you would take the meta that already favors SMGs and certain ARs and insure nothing else that isn't a sniper rifle ever have a prayer at competing again.

DMRs already lose in head-to-head gunfights to most everything else due to aim punch unless the other person has bad aim.

[jade crater]

im saying the gun you carry would determine how much aim punch you receive, a sniper would RECIEVE aim punch.

[sterile plinth]

That just adds another layer of complexity that doesn't need to be there.

Tying it to weapons that need a leg up, which in most FPS is those with low RoF, makes it much more likely that at least they'll be viable.

[cloud marten]

I’ve heard this suggestion before, and while it’s a viable way to nerf snipers/SMGs, doesn’t really make intuitive sense. Why would the gun you hold impact how much you flinch unless it’s heavy?

[jade crater]

my point is your proposal has the oversight of not accounting for sniper rifles and would make it so that every time you try to shoot at them they are going to dome you.

i say this as someone who plays recon btw

[green dragon]

so instead of getting big aimpunch from DMRs and little aimpunch from SMGs itd be a consistent aimpunch frrom all weapons based on which one is in your hands?

[jade crater]

you could have both input and output, an equation that accounts for both weapon calibre of the round inflicting aim punch and the weapon the recipient is holding

i dunno what the answer is, i just know if you remove it all together, get ready for domefest 2023

[cloud marten]

To me, I think aimpunch levels should directly correlate with weapon type/damage/bullet.

Big bullet=more aimpunch
That makes sense to most people, SMGs would naturally have less aimpunch but a lot of bullets still so still have a high total aimpunch etc, basically how it works now but more streamlined.

[humble nest]

a 9mm at 100meters would take like a thousand rounds to get through level 5 armor (what the heavy is wearing)
I'm not sure what you're saying makes sense XD

[sterile plinth]

I think the main balancing issue with snipers is that:

A: There's no limit on how many there can be in a squad.

B: They don't meaningfully contribute to squad play in a game heavily based around squads.

Reversing how flinch works based on the weapon means you're harming other weapons just to nerf one kind.

Maybe have high zoom scopes get knocked out of ADS when hit?

[cloud marten]

Then on the receiving side, your armor type, determines how much aimpunch you receive as a percentage.

For example, light armor = 100% aimpunch,
Medium armor 90%,

And so on

[sterile plinth]

Again, that's just a lot of unnecessary complexity. Bullet caliber shouldn't be a factor in balancing. It's always messy and makes designing future weapons more obnoxious due to the extra math.

[cloud marten]

You can just tie Aimpunch to damage

Basically the same thing

[sterile plinth]

Not really, what if we get a DMR with lower damage but a larger mag and RoF (but still not to the level of a AR/SMG) down the line?

[jade crater]

if they're bad, sure. 4x recon is good, close enough to be in the fight, far enough so you can spawn. The game isn't based around squads at all my dude, it's a hold over from when this game was intended to be a milsim. People leave their squad if there's no where to spawn lol.

[cloud marten]

If the DMR has less damage than an AR per bullet for some reason, it should have less aimpunch than the AR.

[jade crater]

the breaking ads on high range scopes would be fine, but i don't think that's whre the issue would be.

[cloud marten]

Why would this theoretical DMR have less damage than an AR?

[sterile plinth]

Not based on squads? It's hard to ever reliably spawn on an OBJ in 127v127. If you're not in a squad you're going to spend most of the game walking/driving.

I leave squads with too many recons because you're spawn options will often be nowhere near Obj.

[pastel shore]

meh, don't think that's the way to go. That seems like it's just intended to nerf playstyles that you don't like, specifically, unless it comes with such a massive reduction in flinch that playing on light is bearable. It would also mess with snipers balance, they're the one class that needs to be flinched when shot, otherwise snipers are too strong due to the 1hko potential at any range

[jade crater]

well yea, but im saying the game isn't based on gameplay around your squad, they're essentially just spawn beacons in 127v127

[wet field]

JUST REMOVE AIM PUNCH AND PROBLEM SOLVED

[sterile plinth]

Again, this is why tying aim punch on a weapon-by-weapon basis makes the most sense. I just used DMRs and LMGs as a group because the ones we have would all benefit rn.

[jade crater]

i do the same too. When the recon is playing 4x scope and playing with the team i don't notice, i think everyone leaves the squad with a bunch of glint snipers lol.

[pastel shore]

#1133360306278645810 message

This really the best way to do it, idk why you would suggest SMGs get aim punched.. snipers are the only class that should be aim punched. Adding SMGs into that is just being spiteful of a playstyle or weapon type you don't agree with.

[cloud marten]

Numbers to be adjusted of course, you can see where the logic follows. There is a reason speed medic is pretty meta right now

[jade crater]

how can you say that unironically?

[jade crater]

claiming one class should get aim punched while not another and then claiming the reverse would be spiteful

[cloud marten]

That’s an option, but didn’t you just say the initial suggestion was bad because it’s a lot of effort. I just said that tying it to damage is a quick and simple way to streamline it

[sterile plinth]

That's...squad play though? Like, staying together so that you can get healed and have ammo is the most effective way to play.

[jade crater]

from what i've seen it basically doesn't happen, i get as many heals/revives from randoms than i do squadmates

[wild thicket]

please completely remove flinch. The time to kill is so fast anyway its not needed and is unfun. It removes player agency and is a headache. it wont make snipers broken since the ttk is so quick anyway, the first shooter has the advantage anyway which is good. or please atleast reduce it massively, especially on high rpm weapons. but honestly ive never met someone who has truly liked aim punch to the point on wanting it in a game.

[pastel shore]

with confidence that I can defend my logic.

Sniper are UNIQUE in that they are the only weapon that can 1hko at any range, and as a result become unbalanced AF without aim punch.

The ENTIRE reason aim punch was added to release was SPECIFICALLY to balance snipers. They were compeltely and utterly OP before release.

SMGs don't have the 1 shot potential, they should be treated like every weapon, ideally no or significantly lowered aim punch, as per my list of suggestions.

[sterile plinth]

It's not streamlined for the players. You shouldn't need to read a wiki page to figure out why sometimes you get aim punched. They could add a tag on the weapon stat screen that says if it has it or not. It also makes it easier to just remove it later of it's too strong.

If you go with a hard-coded rule based on damage, adjusting things later means a lot more on the back end.

[jade crater]

yea but in doing so, it made smg's unbalanced lol

[pastel shore]

SMGs are already in a balance pass. There's no reason to fuck w/ them specifically with aim punch. Regardless, my solutions all actually address that by limiting the amount of times you can be aim punched(if aim punch stays), which would normalize how often you are aim punched regardless of what the enemy weapons RPM is.

[sterile plinth]

I feel like that's still a lot more work on the dev side than just having a "Aim Punch: Y/N" option.

[pastel shore]

this thread, specifically, is about aim punch, nto about "how can we fuckup SMGs in creative ways because they keep killing me"

[jade crater]

i mean, when smgs are the weapon inflicting the obtuse aimpunch, they're apart of the conversation

[sterile plinth]

Being able to look at an underperforming weapon and say "well, let's turn on aim punch and see how the stats change" seems like a good balancing tool.

[pastel shore]

Yes, but you specifically target nerfing SMGs with your suggestions instead of working on a solution to actually make the game better. Your suggestion is made purely out of spite at SMGs, instead of focusing on how to improve flinch as a mechanic.

The list of suggestions I have focuses on everything, and balances fire rate on top of that, whichever one works. There are a lot of people in here trying to argue w/ regards to flinch FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE than to further try and nerf SMGs. They are not considering anything else and it's really annoying to see. We get it. You don't like SMGs. There are threads for nerfing them specifically, do not fuck up the one chance we have at addressing the biggest problem this game has because you can't turn off your butthurt for 2 fuckin seconds before posting lmao

[jade crater]

lmao dude, you are so defensive about smgs. I've already said snipers deserve to be aimpunched and i think smg do too. Give ar's and lmg's the ability to withstand aimpunch better. It nerfs the smgs defensive capability but keeps its offense intact. I'd rather creative ways to differentiate guns with pros and cons rather than nerf everything till it's basically the same weapons with different skins.

[pastel shore]

I don't even use SMGs dude. I'm defensive because it's obvious that people are specifically making bad suggestions as a result of their salt.

[thin nacelle]

IMO remove flinch entirely or keep it only on snipers. Its a mechanic that ultimately removes player agency

[fleet pond]

If it's going to be tweaked to the point it barely exists, then why be in the game at all. Might as well just get rid of it enitrely because it doesn't do anything outside of turn fights where two people hit each other at the same time into a stupid dice roll

[jade crater]

Okay dude, you are rather charged about it, but im salty.

[pastel shore]

yes, making a suggestion that's "fix this mechanic except for this 1 weapon class that I clearly don't like" is absolutely salty.

[jade crater]

You can't balance anything in a vacuum.

MAYBE if i TALK LIKE THIS, i'd be MORE SALTY

fuckin chill lmao

[sand loom]

Flinch / aim punch is good. The issue is that it isnt counterable and high ROF weapons do it disproportionately. From my perspective there should be some kind of limiting returns so if a vector, or mp7, famas, whatever zap me I can actually fight them not have my aim sent to Jupiter

[fleet pond]

Flinch is good until it stops me from getting the kill, then it's not good. Great input.

[sterile plinth]

Alright, I gotta go do something. If you want to specifically respond to me pls reply directly.

I'll leave on saying that any change should be as simple as possible for both the devs and the players. Players are smart, but likely don't want to have to watch videos or read a wiki to understand the aim punch mechanic.

Having it be on a per-weapon basis as a way to improve underperforming weapons is easy to understand and hopefully easy to do on the backend.

[thin nacelle]

using a mechanic that takes away player agency to balance guns is just a bad design decision, i cant agree with that at all

[sterile plinth]

Does it not take away more agency to have certain weapons, and in the case of DMRs an entire class, be objectively worse than the alternatives? Very few games have made DMRs good but not oppressive. You would likely only ever lose to one at mid-range when you didn't have one yourself. That's the range they are designed to dominate though, just like SMGs are supposed to dominate up close.

Oh, also the lower RoF means you won't actually get aim punched that much.

[thin nacelle]

it doesnt because you do have agency regarding those decisions, you can choose your loadout and weapons. Aimpunch is not an opt-in system there is no way to prevent it. It further accentuates peakers advantage where it is completely unnecessary with the ttk being so low in the first place. I ultimately think it just hurts the gameplay and there is nothing really to be gained by having it. Bolt action snipers might be an exception to this.

weapon balancing is better using the existing metrics imo, there are plenty of values that can be adjusted to make weapons stronger or weaker without needing aimpunch

[sterile plinth]

Even if the LMGs and DMRs has aim punch and SMGs didn't, they would still win in close range most of the time (assuming roughly equal skill). ARs vs DMRs at mid-range would probably be roughly equal up until you get to mid-long-range where the damage drop-off becomes more relevant. Which again, is balanced.

Where skill comes in is putting yourself into positions that benefit your weapon. Instead of like last night where with the P90 I was beating both ARs and DMRs at mid-range and even mid-long purely due to aim punch and a large mag.

Damage drop-off also needs to be more distinct between weapon classes, with the odd exception like the UMP where it's TECHNICALLY a SMG but has a low RoF.

[thin nacelle]

thats exactly what im saying those all those things can be balanced and changed without aimpunch even being a part of the conversation

[sterile plinth]

How do you make DMRs good without aim punch?

Also, without becoming OP.

[thin nacelle]

why do u feel it needs aimpunch, just change velocity, dmg falloff, rof, recoil, accuracy, ads time or any of the other metrics

[sterile plinth]

Because I can't think of many, if any, other FPS that managed to do it.

Haven't played Squad though.

[analog kiln]

Look at this clip guys:
https://imgur.com/a/rVwjST4
I straight up lose the gunfight due to aimpunch even though my initial shots are on target.
And its random too, I flinch right then left then right again. Like wtf. This needs to be tuned down.

[slow spire]

I think it should be based on the weapon caliber/damage. Smgs shouldn't flinch people at all, dmr and lmg should flinch as is currently

[thin nacelle]

if u removed it entirely right now dmrs would still suck, the only real issue i can see with removing it is bolt actions

[placid dagger]

you can give it to dmrs and sniper rifles exclusively to stop them from dominating based solely on aim

[royal sable]

Be more concise, only letting people be aim punched when using DMRs/SRs?

[placid dagger]

yeah

[royal sable]

That'd fuck DMRs even more haha

[placid dagger]

dmrs need buffs in other places

[royal sable]

Have aim punch scale with damage

[placid dagger]

doesn't solve the issue completely though does it now?

[royal sable]

Your suggestion doesn't even help 😂 so..

[placid dagger]

this is what people mean when they say nerfing based on salt

[little thicket]

Aim punch should just go and be replaced by meaningful suppression

[placid dagger]

oh person who asked for more conciseness, care to elaborate?

[royal sable]

Aka tour sentence sucks and can confuse people who aren't native English speakers

[placid dagger]

cause removing aim punch from anything other than those two would solve people's issue with randomness in gunfights

while also keeping snipers at bay

[jade crater]

I think a lot of this really centers around what game mode and player count we're talking about. One set of reworks will be fair in 32v32 while another will be fair in 127v127.

[royal sable]

Lmao, aim punch is what fucks SRs/DMRs cuz even piddly 10 damage throws your aim off so you get fucked even though the engagement range is supposed to be in your favour.

[placid dagger]

I was clearly not talking about this as you can see from the post I specifically replied to but wcyd 🤷‍♂️

[green dragon]

Flinch is borderline regarded in every aspect, esp. for SMGs since their high firerate allows it to be proc'ed over and over.

Multiple suggestions have been said, first one being the "flinch based on caliber", which honestly I feel it's the right move in some sort of way, where SMGs / pistol deal the least flinch, ARs dealing more, BRs dealing even higher and then Snipers / DMRs dealing the highest. Even better is flinch degrading over distance, where flinch is at normal level close range then becomes negligable over distance.

In all honesty, I very much agree with removing flinch. Imo there is just nothing, no sort of situation that deems flinch useful. It may be useful to the guy that is shooting but sometimes it could be both ways, right now it is but a battle to see who can proc flinch the fastest or pray to RNGod to see who inflicted flinch first.

[thin nacelle]

so why not remove it

[tired oriole]

All these wishy-washy suggestions . Just get rid of it entirely, nobody enjoys it. There is no reason to add aimpunch to specific types of guns because the top 1% of players can easily account for this and compensate their aim. For context I played CS:GO and other games with this """mechanic""" at the highest level and its just pointless RNG.

There is no reason to add aimpunch to sniper rifles or anything with decent magnification. Anybody who is good can compensate their aim. It is just artificial difficulty and a meaningless change. If the problem is damage, then adjust the damage. Address the issue. Don't skirt around it.

[royal sable]

Because it's this games "suppression" mechanic 😂

[thin nacelle]

and keeping it in the game is relevant to better gameplay how?

[placid dagger]

Snipers do need some sort of aim punch so they can't run in close and headshot people constantly though

[tired oriole]

I already do this with aimpunch, that's not the issue bro.

[placid dagger]

bruh

[thin nacelle]

i think this is overstated a bit since they still cant deal with multiple targets quickly

[placid dagger]

snipers rn take quick peek shots to be effective at closer ranges

if you could still keep your accuracy while being shot at you'd dumpster any slower fire rate weapon

[tired oriole]

I have had situations where someone got the jump on me with an smg but I 180 turn quickscope them with my sniper and that's with your aimpunch btw. You're just making it harder for everyone else that isn't me

[royal sable]

My brother in christ, there's no battlebit pro league.

[tired oriole]

Yeah it isn't. That's why removing aimpunch is actually good for casuals.

Keeping it just means players like me feed on everyone

[royal sable]

Aim punch already favours high rof. How much of a hard on do you have against DMRs and SRs?

[placid dagger]

I have done the same shit as well but removing it entirely would just mean this is a regular occurance

[tired oriole]

That's the point. All you're doing is reducing the occurrence but not actually removing the problem. Which is what everyone means by more RNG

[placid dagger]

I am a sniper player btw

[sterile plinth]

I have to once again ask everyone who wants it gone completely, how do you make low RoF weapons viable without running a high risk of making them OP? Often times you'll see LMGs and DMRs be briefly OP because they up damage too much, and then they get nerfed back to nearly worthless.

Which is why I'm for keeping it as an option for underperforming weapons. It doesn't tweak any numbers, it's just a unique mechanic.

I'd also be in favor of aim punch being a consistent vertical kick upwards, not random. So it's just an equalizer.

[royal sable]

Uh huh, I play every class but favour sniping/dmr too so?

[placid dagger]

so I don't have a hard on against snipers

smh

[royal sable]

Mfw I use dmr on classes other than recon, and boi your aim punch suggestion would suck lmao

[jade crater]

yeah that's what i agree with, you can tweak the numbers as well per weapon, per class, ect. I dunno why people become of afraid of any degree of complexity

[royal sable]

Imagine dmr not aim punching in cqc 😂 chance of winning the already uphill battle gone

[placid dagger]

the problem here being?

[jade crater]

if you get caught in cqc with a long range weapon you deserve to die, tbh

[thin nacelle]

you shouldnt win cqc with a dmr anyways LOL WAT

[placid dagger]

the idea is to keep dmrs out of cqc genius

[royal sable]

Bruh that's skill issue lmao. The Mk14 is somewhat survivable.

It's stacked against you but the chance isn't 0.

[placid dagger]

woop there it is

[fierce lake]

DMRs could just have much less first kick recoil and I think it would be fine for the most part.

[sterile plinth]

Because your suggestion is obtuse unless you're willing to search how it works. My suggestion is just a uniform level of aim punch that a couple of otherwise weak guns have.

[thin nacelle]

exactly there are other viable balancing ideas

[tired oriole]

Because the highest level of players will keep doing what you're complaining about. It doesn't solve the issue.

[jade crater]

you can literally put the aimpunch multiplier on the stats screen

[royal sable]

Is ok, they're the typical blind af recon 😂

[placid dagger]

I think you misread my argument. I'm saying snipers should get aim punched to keep high level players from using them like shotguns. Not the other way around.

[thin nacelle]

aim punch still feels bad and removes player agency why keep it

[jade crater]

if 'first shot recoil' isn't complicated then aimpunch isn't complicated. like i said, afraid of any degree of complexity.

[jade crater]

yea i agree, but snipers would be oppressive without any sort of aim punch

[thin nacelle]

so only keep it on bolt actions?

[royal sable]

Takes scar H or ak 15 with no aim punch and start clicking heads for ohk instead of dmrs at cqc? And you get self heal lmao

[thin nacelle]

none of those ohk

[jade crater]

i think lowering it by 80-90% would be good, so you don't miss anything under 50m due to it.

[sterile plinth]

I'll be honest, the stats screen is already a bit of a mess. It's hard to tell what's an actual significant change in recoil on that screen vs in the actual game.

If you have it as an adjustable value, most people won't know what difference a 3.6 flinch is vs 5.8.

[tired oriole]

I understand exactly what ur saying and I still stand by it. Even if you add aimpunch they will still run around with it like a shotgun and headshot people via quickscopes. What you actually want is reduced movement speed or remove headshotting completely. Adding aimpunch just means I compensate my aim, that's all. It's not rocket science and doesn't solve the issue. Just give people a week to adjust and just like cod, csgo, and every other game in existence, people will adapt and keep using snipers like a shotgun.

[jade crater]

what the fuck is 'recoil 1.68' then?

[sterile plinth]

That's my point, the way they do stats is kinda jank.

And you're adding more.

[placid dagger]

😶

[royal sable]

Yeah stuff like that should be degrees per shot

[placid dagger]

idk about you man but I don't see many snipers have consistent success with shotgun like usage

[jade crater]

i understand that 1.68 is more than 1.42, therefore worse. You think palyers wouldn't understand the same with aimpunch>

?

[placid dagger]

also how are you even supposed to adjust your aim to compansate for randomness

[thin nacelle]

its obtuse tho and not intuitive thats the problem

[royal sable]

Then your suggestion is for moot then no? Wasn't that your entire schtick

[sterile plinth]

But what does that actually MEAN? Is the difference actually noticeable? Or is it like all these grips and barrels that adjust things by .01?

[jade crater]

man, there are a bunch of posts on reddit asking what 'control' and 'accuracy' are.

[tired oriole]

[placid dagger]

bruh are you trying to sound like a clown? Snipers have aim punch affecting them rn, in the case we remove it they should still keep it

[royal sable]

The moment a blind recon realises an enemy is right beside them

[jade crater]

If i gave you a stat that said 'aimpunch infliction per bullet' or 'aimpunch reduction', you'd know exactly what it does after trying out 2 weapons, stop being difficult, jesus christ.

[sterile plinth]

I was actually saying high-zoom snipers should get knocked out of ADS when hit.

[tired oriole]

I can see where he's coming from. Its just once you see what people on aderrall and cocaine can do with snipers with all these restrictions, you start to realize they're completely pointless lol.

[tiny glacier]

how about we remove aim punch and quick scoping? make snipers have lowered hipfire accuracy and the accuracy stays low until all the way scoped in?

[royal sable]

If they hit you, you're either already dead, or aim punched once, and not again until they chamber their shot in the next too long. So it's a minor inconvenience when you have an automatic weapon lmao

[tired oriole]

Imma be honest, if quickscoping and all that is an issue you just need to take a look at the game that started all of this; CoD. The solution is a raw movement speed penalty with snipers and slow ADS.

[sterile plinth]

Again, how do I know how significant these numbers actually are between weapons?

Is the bigger number significant, or can it be measured in millimeters of distance?

A consistent amount of aim punch on the few weapons that have it make it possible to reliably adjust back. So those weaker weapons get an equalizer, but the one getting hit can still fight back.

[jade crater]

wasn't the original offender the awp?

[thin nacelle]

well currently snipers do have a nasty ms penalty

[jade crater]

yea, the legibility in the game is a problem, but that doesn't mean aimpunch can't be tailored specific to weapons. whether or not that's a valid solution is a different argument though

[jade crater]

L96 short mag moves fast

[tired oriole]

Yeah, it's really just ADS speed at this point. Wether that or more movement penalty is the solution, idk. I just dont want aimpunch lol.

[wind path]

Personally I wish it would be removed or at least be optional on dedicated servers

[sterile plinth]

That seems like something you should only implement if it ends up being actually needed.

You're jumping to calculus on a problem that might need simple addition and subtraction. It's very possible that everything feels fine with the simple, uniform punch on a few weapons.

[thin nacelle]

right there with you, frustrating mechanic with seemingly no benefit. i havent read any viable argument for it in this whole thread except bolt action dominance

[fierce lake]

You don't really need a real physical measurement unit for a stat to be meaningful. Muzzle flash is just a number, but it's pretty self explanatory what it does, and you can definitely notice the difference between some and almost zero muzzle flash. The recoil stat is probably just a multiplier for a fixed value of recoil every gun have, so the lower the multiplier, the less recoil you will feel. You don't really need to know exactly how many degrees/shots you're gonna have, that would be just as meaningless.

[jade crater]

if its only on a few weapons, it'd still need to be communicated via stat screen

[tiny glacier]

The aimpunch just seems to have to much randomness to it to be an interesting mechanic.
Currently even if you get the jump on someone you can get turned on and the first bullet from them flinches you and now they win the gunfight.
I hope they remove it

[jade crater]

im saying you could further tweak it. i was agreeing with where you were coming from, as it may be the right solution and it also opens the door to further tweaking ifneeded.

[jade crater]

but yea, simple solution is better.

[pastel shore]

That's not a problem, really. If you are good enough to do that with flinch, then there's nothing more that needs to be done. You are a top 1% player, that much skill cannot be nerfed/accounted for.

The goal with leaving snipers able to flinch is to help deal with the rest of the 99% of players who aren't able to do that. In that case, flinch is extremely helpful at dealing with snipers. I know I don't have any problem dealing with them in the current state of the game, but before game was released, they were absolutely fucking OP as fuck, because even mediocre snipers can hit headshots under pressure when there's no aim punch. It's a huge game, theere's no mmr, 32-127 players in. The vast majority of snipers are dogshit, but they need somethign to keep them in line because snipers in this game are extremely overpowered, and flinch does that perfectly. All that needs to be changed w/ snipers atm is prevent them from shooting in bluezones and they'll be in a perfect spot.

[tired oriole]

What if instead of balancing for 99% of the players, you could do something less annoying and hit 100% by increasing ADS speed?

[pastel shore]

That will literally not matter at all. Like I will lose 0% effectiveness if you make my sniper take 1s to scope in. All you do is take away the fun of snipers in closer quarters, but that's not where they need to be kept in check, they need to be kept in check at range because otherwise they can be overwhelming. In CQC, snipers are easy to kill, that's fine. At 100-200m, though, that's where they need to be kept in check. That's where aim punch comes in.

[waxen isle]

remove aimpunch entirely

[glacial cloak]

remove aimpunch and add suppression instead

[jade crater]

lol have fun getting domed yall

[tiny glacier]

we can balance snipers seperately from aimpunch, it doesnt have to be one or the other

someone said to remove them from ADS upon taking damage, could be a direction we go

[placid dagger]

This sounds horrible

[jade crater]

I think it should be a seperate stat. Half the guns in the game suffer from being carbon copies of one another and utilizing aimpunch as a mechanic you can manipulate would bring niche to different weapons.

[placid dagger]

this wouldn't just affect sniper v infantry

it'd fuck up sniper v sniper battles as well

[tiny glacier]

true, while sniping there are many times where they hit me first but i get the headshot and i am just bleeding

[flint maple]

That's how most games do it. You shouldn't be able to duel someone that has an AR witb a sniper. That or heavy flinch.

[placid dagger]

oh hi jakey, seems like you didn't read the other two messages again 🙃

[final olive]

Finch just kills DMRs at all range brackets, it MASSIVLY favors high rate of fire weapons over anything else

[flint maple]

Should I scroll back 5 days?

[placid dagger]

imagine getting shot in the foot or something and now your scope's gone lmao

[placid dagger]

no mate just look down 2 messages

[jade crater]

just admit it, you inlove with me

[tiny glacier]

Doesnt CS:GO snipers lose accuracy while moving?

[pastel shore]

There's like, 2 games that do it, one is halo and that games pace is completely different, lol, and I think even destiny stopped doing this because it was awful

[placid dagger]

but csgo is a way different game

[tiny glacier]

The option is to have it affect only snipers

[placid dagger]

shouldn't be compared to BBR

[flint maple]

You do need some kind of flinch just the game handles it poorly. Without flinch you end up with TTK races. Games like Quake don't have flinch but they also have insanely arcadey movement to get around it

[thin nacelle]

csgo is irrelevant to this discusion due to its economy system

[final olive]

I mean with flinch you get into first to shoot wins as well, and we have very arcadey movement here as well

[tiny glacier]

I mean the movement in BBR seems pretty crazy right now

[flint maple]

It's mostly console ports that stopped doing it because the Faze sniping explosion led to more popularity among younger gamers. Call of Duty was insane for how OP snipers are because they ADS faster than rifles and can just 1 tap you through getting hit 3x

[placid dagger]

also it's pace, the low amount of enemies you deal with and so on. Two very different games.

[thin nacelle]

plus armor removes punch etc

[glacial cloak]

i like the suggestion that flinch could only be triggered at a certain rate (like once every 200ms) which would remove the advantage of high rof

[flint maple]

Yeah but you strafe probably 400x slower than Quake. It's mostly console style movement with a snall air strafe

[pastel shore]

cs:go has much smaller ranges, significantly slower movement, much smaller maps, less players, is hitscan, and the AWP 1hko to the chest... not a valid comparison and making snipers innaccurate while moving is an awful idea. They are in a good spot right now, the only issue is players sitting in their blue zone.

[placid dagger]

yeah it's basically trying to balance a racing game by showing GTA as an example

[final olive]

You do not run 800mph in quake, we move at 20 mph in this game with zero inertia. Movement is not slow and you can largly ignore physics

[pastel shore]

Yes, call of duty is dogshit, but lucky bb sniping is nothing like that

[royal sable]

Inertia would kill them wriggly movement players 😂

[tiny glacier]

Back to the main topic, I just want the RNG and advantage to RoF weapons to be gone from flinching

[thin nacelle]

the need for that kind of movement is reduced with aim punch being removed because you can choose to shoot back

[tiny glacier]

If we remove flinching does SMGs get worse at close range since its just a TTK race at that point?

[final olive]

Yes, but SMG still wins the TTK race

[pastel shore]

behold, suggestions that do all of that and keep snipers in check

1. remove aim punch completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch when hit, with a small cooldown(1 flinch every 300 ms at most, which would normalize how often weapons of different RPMS aim punch).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a short cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch when hit, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

My suggestions, in order of what I would prefer, personally

[flint maple]

Idk lol it's pretty easy with how big the heads are. I go 30-40 kills and less than 10 deaths all the time in 32 v32 running around under 100m with red dot and med scope on sniper.

[glacial cloak]

if the flinch only applies to snipers then it should only be when they are scoped in

[flint maple]

If you remove aim punch high RoF guns will be the only useful guns

[tiny glacier]

If we are this worried about snipers are we grouping the deagle in with them since it has the same issue close range?

[pastel shore]

so do I, but it's still completely different than cod. Cod kills in chest shots, and has aimbot to insure you hit your shots. Just have to hit your LT/RT for free kills. BB is 500000x better than cod

[final olive]

The primary issue with flinch is simply that is heavily skews power towards high rate of fire weapons as they produce the most flinch. Major contributing factor on why guns like DMR feel bad, since a slow firing semi just gets aim punch off target after 1 shot if within 200m.

[royal sable]

The other way. Aim punch buffs high rof low damage guns against low rof high damage guns.