Map Voting - Feedback

[cyan pine]

Yeah, imagine trying to code slaz and his perspective

[atomic veldt]

He just hates every map other than Frugis so that’d be simple enough

[cyan pine]

I don't know why people enjoy frugis so much, kinda mid imo

[limber light]

I'm fine with most of the maps. My greviance is the random map voting. At this point, getting wakistan would be a treat even if I used to always alt f4'd it when it came up.
Frugis is the best for the helicopter because the rooftop campers have nowhere to go other than prone so you can massacare them. They won't run around maniacly. The APC and tanks can be rpg'd few turns right out of spawn from above aswell as the rooftop campers if you line them up.
The G objective spawn means you get an awsome fight for G and have to defend it vigoursly inbetween lives, often firing at the tail rotor before it takes off it's it's too hotly contested.

You could go ingame right now and see for yourself. What is preventing you? Maps above 30% do not have an aditional chance to win. If the animation is to be beleived then it also confirms it as it won't tick on it more times than others. The weighted map voting hasn't worked since the hotfix - end of.

[low gull]

firstly i'm not on my computer rn
secondly, are you fricking blind? it ticks twice, it was stated by oki and it sure does feel like those maps get chosen more often
either you deliver some evidence for you're crying or no one will even dare to agree with you, even tho the map voting isn't optimal
^ this is coming from someone who likes the current system btw, i can see its flaws
you're just spitting straight misinformation buddy

[limber light]

Refreshing that poll shows that double the ammount of people prefer the old system over the current system, with the currently bugged weighted system that hasn't been working for a while now having quadruple the votes surpasing it by just over half.

[hazy steeple]

For those who didn't understand what he said

The current system isn't random btw

It'll randomly pick from what people have chosen, but things with more votes will have more of a chance of being picked. So it's not like random it's weighted random - which is different.

To be clear, the only one really complaining hard about the voting currently - that I've seen - is Slaz. I think most people are indifferent or like the current system. Meaning I think it could just be iterated on a bit more to fine tune it as more maps are added. More maps means it's ok having like 5 options instead of just 3

Because chances are the top 3 popular maps won't be in that list, and even if they are they may not be picked - but they have a high chance of being picked if people vote on them still

[amber cave]

this is a reddit post?

[hazy steeple]

Adding "i don't care" or "none of the above" would probably help @atomic veldt

[hazy steeple]

Yee

[amber cave]

would be nice to have it through disc instead 😢 *or both

[hazy steeple]

Post a Google form on here and Reddit

I'll do it tomorrow if no one else does lol

[steady sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-face-typing-very-fast-gif-24785119

[amber cave]

I figured it was an official poll of somesorts like the mentioned in dev stream, go for it tho

[brisk basin]

call my interest in the results

[atomic veldt]

I guess so

I don’t think you can change that though

[atomic veldt]

Slaz, remember that this is a single vote poll - much like the old voting system, ranking these by how many votes they got does not really work, because they are not independent.

In this case it could well be that all 135 people who did not vote for the old system would have preferred lottery to FPTP, just almost all of those preferred adjusted.

Unlikely of course but I think it is likely there is a correlation between people who voted second and third option - if the third option were to be removed, I would expect most of them to go to option 2 rather than option 1.

76% of them chose one of the lottery options. So I think it is safe to say lottery is more popular than the old system.

[hazy steeple]

I got lazy, I'm not gonna make the form 😂

[violet furnace]

Feel like the Reddit poll got way more responses than anything in this channel would have anyway

[hazy steeple]

Would probably want to link it on reddit and in the discord, have a mod pin it or something

[atomic veldt]

Yeah the community there is quite consistent for responding to polls

Consists of a more varied portion of the playerbase I think since it’s basically random who sees it. On the discord 90% of us are here to give opinions (inclusive or) people who have sunk a long time into the game.

[hazy steeple]

*complain

Ftfy

[zealous ermine]

please, i beg you, try something different for map voting. What is implemented isn't working, half of the end of matches are full of people complaining about it.

[limber light]

The map voting is abysmal and not even working. The rare time Wakistan pops up and gets 35-45% votes it will still lose out another map or worse, go to Random (which shouldn't even exist) and go to Azagor.

[low gull]

(azagor is the better map)

[low gull]

nuh uh

[limber light]

Azagor again with 17% votes.

[low gull]

good...

[limber light]

Valley surpassed 30%

[low gull]

and?
it's just chance, nothing garantees that a map with 99% will win (never has been stated)
and with how bad map selection was before, this is a big step in the right direction

i'll gladly take the 10% waki vote if that means i get to play azagor with a 10% vote here and there

[atomic veldt]

Slazenger
Everyone can give examples of when the vote didn’t go their way

This isn’t any kind of evidence for anything

Most people don’t get what they voted for every game because most people don’t agree on it

[hazy steeple]

I've never seen anyone complain about it in game tbh

Slaz got his friend to come complain 😔

I think a good marker that this current system is still better than the old ones is that before when people complained, no one - or very little people - pushed back on the complaints

Y'all complain that everyone doesn't like it, everyone complains about it every game, etc. I'll play for 4 hours in a day and NEVER see a complaint in game.

I'll play multiple days in a row, nothing

Whereas with night maps i actively DID see complaints constantly in game

[limber light]

Mate. A map with 99% chance should win. And so should a map with 40% or 30%. or 25%, so long as it is the heighest among the others. That's the whole point of casting a vote. With the current system it is entirely random.

[low gull]

it's still better
if you want waki/basra/sandy then idk what to tell you but "your map prefences suck."

[hazy steeple]

Idk what those screenshots mean

That random won?

[low gull]

ye xD

[hazy steeple]

You only had 42% of the votes, it's reasonable that you might not get it

At the end of the day Slaz thinks that whatever has the most votes should win full stop. Rule by majority. It's not a bad opinion, but if you hold that opinion forever we'll simply never agree

Which is also ok, but please some point stfu about it bruh

It's not that you have a different opinion, it's that you don't offer up any valuable solutions. You simply complain about the current system to complain - which is fine, but damn you can be such a drag

I'll restate my take on it again. I like the current voting system because no matter what your vote will matter. I personally think having a 1% possibility of your choice getting picked and going against the grain is awesome. I don't view not getting my map as my vote not mattering personally.

With majority vote, the most popular options win the most. That's not a problem if you don't mind only getting the most popular options all the time. You could argue it's more fair in a sense, but I kind of don't think it is in some ways. That's an entire philosophical debate that's a bit much for block game stuff - and tbh a bit cringe to debate about here.

The current system still has room for improvement, but I think it's probably the best voting system in a game with 200 people in a lobby.

This debate would be 100% solved by letting servers pick between some systems though

Tldr: majority vote sucked before. Therefore it would probably suck now. Suggest an improvement or change on it rather than ask to go back to it everyday bro

[low gull]

🔥 Lostmixup being based 🔥

[violet furnace]

The problem is you can’t tell if he thinks the current system is broken (ie not working as intended) or he wants to go back to the old system

Like why post those screenshots? Anyone who plays the game has seen a map get 40% and lose. It’ll lose 60% of the time (not factoring in the update that doubles). And random got 25% of the vote, that’s a big chance that random will win. I don’t get it.

[weak cedar]

There's no way to figure out what is going on in their head. Slaz is either a very dedicated troll or a just a genuinely very stupid person.

[zealous ermine]

It's gotten so bad that there's literally a whole group of people who just put their faith in random and yell "HAVE FAITH" whenever they don't like the map balance. I've seen many lobbies go into a ghost town the moment an unpopular map is picked, I can even get video evidence of it happening next time it does (it happens atleast once a session for me on 128 servers)

It's not about what your preference is, it's about majority voting. At the end of the day, balanced random still feels like random. I'm not saying the original option was the best one, but this is not it.

[hazy steeple]

I have literally never seen that happen, so if it does happen yes capture evidence of it

It's important for the devs as well

[zealous ermine]

Hold on I'll see if i can find it on YouTube

[hazy steeple]

Also important distinction, is this on official or community servers

[zealous ermine]

Official.

People just back out and reque for what they actually want to play

Requeue*

[hazy steeple]

I mean, lobbies will becomes a ghost town if an unpopular map is picked regardless of the voting tbh

was like that for night maps for sure for some

[atomic veldt]

I am yet to see a lobby become a ghost town from anything

[hazy steeple]

I don't see how changing the voting helps in this specific situation is all I'm saying.

@atomic veldt same

[zealous ermine]

The most obvious time i saw it happen was on wakistan, if i remember correctly

I cannot find video evidence to backup my claim, so for now I'll default but I'll come back if i end up seeing it again

Perhaps I've just been more lucky to see it occur, or I'm misremembering.

[atomic veldt]

Wakistan was more common than it should have been but not exactly game ruining

[zealous ermine]

I have no idea who slaz is. Lmao

[zealous ermine]

In any case, if there is any substantial backlash against the current voting system, i don't see how it would hurt to keep trying different ideas every update until one worked well.

To show what i mean by substantial, 38% were more interested in this poll to try a different option than the one currently in game.

[limber light]

When the games dead in OCE, which it is bound to be at some point in the near future. I will be silent. Right now it cannot maintain a full 254 conqest sever on a saturday night. All because of the awful map voting.

[zealous ermine]

This seems like a decent idea.

[limber light]

I don't think it's broken - it is broken. Thw weighted map voting has not worked since the hotfix update.

[violet furnace]

Explicitly define "broken"

[limber light]

Good greif you monkey. The system is broken because the code likely got fucked in the hotfix and the system does not work.

[zealous ermine]

I am in no way associated with slaz, I just think that the voting system isn't perfect in it's current iteration.

Just want to make that clear

[cyan pine]

Man how did this thread got even more cringe?

How is trying to shut down everyone who tries to complain about the current voting system even helpful?

[zealous ermine]

I apologize if i seem cringe. I'll come back when i have more evidence to back my claim

[cyan pine]

I did not mean you dw

[limber light]

Bro you don't need evidence since anyone can go ingame and see the numbers drop like mad whenever a terrible map no one voted for comes on. Happens commonly on dustydew or if there is a map repeat.

[violet furnace]

Who even did you mean

[zealous ermine]

Agreed, but if people dont believe me then I'm not gonna just yell at them to look themselves

[violet furnace]

I’ve seen it happen too, won’t argue there. It’s not that drastic (maybe lose 20% of the lobby if it’s Dusty) but it happens. Doesn’t affect me as much in NA tho since there’s plenty of people to fill it back up

But the claim that votes have no effect on the map that’s chosen I’m quite confident is false.

The map with the most votes seems to win more than the others. If they’d post the distribution in #998174250483593296 we could stop arguing this point and see the data.

[limber light]

The map with the most votes to win still has a 60%-70% chance to lose. Not correct to say they win more than others at all.

[violet furnace]

🧐

[steady sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/cuh-guh-buh-gif-26372267

[zealous ermine]

Completely agree, I seriously doubt this. I havent seen any proof of that, nor do I think the devs would do that.

[low gull]

if it only got 40-30% then the math checks out (higher probability for maps with more than 30% ignored ofc)
but you just seem to complain about not getting the maps you want, not that the system is bugged...

[atomic veldt]

Surely if there’s only one server there, the map voting will be irrelevant? And we have already established that the majority are in favour of the current system by a significant margin.

[hazy steeple]

I have settled on this being a bit

[limber light]

Incorrect as the weighted map voting does work. Removing that from the poll, the old map voting is double that of the current system - a large ammount.
If it ever gets fixed (unlikely) then it would be worth polling again. From the very breif time that it was working correctly (I think 2~ days?) I recall it being decent but still prone to random rng nonsence.

[atomic veldt]

Well it does work, but let’s pretend it doesn’t for the sake of this argument.

Mate. Removing one of the options means those who voted for it are now split between the other options, not magically disappeared. We can’t say for sure how they would be split, but since they voted for one lottery system and would be given a choice between a very similar system and a FPTP one I have no doubt almost all of them would go to the other lottery option.

The poll being FPTP itself is not something you can just ignore

[hazy steeple]

Wait what

Is he saying if you just remove all the votes for the current system on that Reddit poll that the old system wins?

He literally just said weighed map voting works, then said it doesn't work

This is stupid

[low gull]

[steady sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/scott-scott-the-woz-scott-the-woz-eating-cereal-eating-cereal-gif-26057324

You guys aren’t getting anywhere with this

Slaz(or other people) are going to keep spouting shit and you guys are going to keep eating it up and telling them it’s shit

Whatever is suggested is going to be contested by the opposite party

[hazy steeple]

nah bruv

we gotta keep letting him say dumb shit

it's funner that way. No one is arguing and screaming about night maps anymore, I need the content

[low gull]

Lostmixup lore 2023: he needs his content vitamin gummies

[cyan pine]

bro needs them slaz gummies

melt that shit and inject it straight into the vein

(don't do this irl)

[low gull]

(do it)

[hazy steeple]

I do eat vitamin gummies 😭

I don't eat enough, too busy complaining on discord

[dry depot]

Why vote at all when the map with the least votes gets selected by the randomizer?

[split copper]

The percentage votes equals pecent chance to win. If two people vote for map A and one votes for map B, map A will have a 66% chance to win and map B will have 33% chance to win. Voting for a map increases its odds of getting picked by the randomizer

[dry depot]

That's all well and good statistically, but when there is still a statistical chance of a map with the minority of votes out of, say, four or five different options, then it can be concluded that the vast majority of players would rather play any map other than the map with the least votes, so in the end basically no one wins. It would be preferable for the map with the lowest number of votes be omitted from the final selection. That's my feedback.

[limber light]

Sorry meant it doesn't work, missspelled.

[limber light]

That was a missspelling. It doesn't work and has not worked for a while, but essentially yes. If you were to remove it it would show the old map voting to be double. And when the weighted map voting is fixed that will be double that of the old one.

[hazy steeple]

I'm confused what the point of what you're saying about voting is

Removing votes doesn't invalidate the votes that were removed I'm pretty sure

[hazy steeple]

Your vote always increases the chance of your map getting picked, so there's always a reason to vote. Will your map get picked 100% of the time, no, but will you have a chance of getting what you want even if no one else wants it? Yes. Therefore, it's always a good idea to vote if you'd like a specific map. With majority voting with 200+ people (where most don't vote anyway) your vote matters less because it's mob rule. You get people spamming in chat asking for specific maps, some maps simply never get picked simply because of perceived quality (example, being memed into being seen as bad), and a whole lot of repetition on most servers.

Now, maybe majority voting would work if the previous map had a large chance of not appearing at the end of the round for a few rounds. Random would have to be taken out I think because it'd win most of the time. Map vote would have to be limited like it is now.

This is something I suggested before suggesting Mario kart rules I believe. It leads to the same issue tbh, but less often because the previous map has a lower chance of appearing (that slowly increases) for a few rounds.

If majority rule were to be re-implemented, it would have to be done similar to this for sure to have any variety at all.

Now, secondary issue - night maps

Another issue with majority voting was getting night time on maps. It was stupid rare before weighted random was implemented and night was subsequently evicted from the game.

Game mode voting was also a major issue imo. Weighted random was the most helpful for voting for game modes and getting to play something other than conquest on 127s

Although, not letting game modes repeat is (I believe) still agreed to be a dumb decision.

TLDR: Majority voting could've worked with some tweaking for maps some of the above got implemented and night maps were separated as a separate map vote (or it rng decides based on votes, idc). Weighted rng voting still is best for game modes imo though

Now, a real radical change would be Weighted random voting where maps and game modes are tied together. As in you're voting for waki conquest, or sandy frontline, etc

as in at the same time

I think that would actually make random voting even more chaotic and fun, same for majority voting.

Would speed up voting too

[hazy steeple]

I don't think that's how that works. It's a one vote system, so you can't determine which of the maps all the players would rather not play on because they all voted on what they wanted to play on at that moment. A vote for waki could've possibly gone to sandy, etc. Now, if sandy ALWAYS got 5%, then you could make a trend out of it. You can't really conclude that from just the end of screen votes though I think.

Perhaps I like all the maps equally and simply didn't vote one way or the other this time. Maybe one map just happened to get 3% because we just played on it two games ago. Point is, I don't think that conclusion 100% tracks

2am yappening over

Example to elaborate. Sandy, Waki and basara are up. If everyone in the lobby kind of likes Sandy, but prefers the other two maps somewhat more it'll get the least votes but isn't the last map everyone wants to play. It just got the least votes because it was everyone's second pick

Some research study nerd check out if my logic makes any sense here lol. I believe it does

[olive cipher]

"the vast majority" doesn't vote, and doesn't care what map they play on

[hazy steeple]

Yes basically that

[dry depot]

If we are judging my previous assertion on the basis of it "tracking 100%", we can also conclude that this hypothetical (that maybe somebody likes all the options equally and just doesn't vote) also doesn't track 100% (because its just hypothetical) and we could invalidate it all the same. But rather than invalidate it, I'm going to assume that it is true, as well as that non-voters represent the majority, as @olive cipher claims. Would this not still support my point? Consider: if non-voters "don't care" which map is selected then that is evidence in itself that it is the "voting body" whose desires should be representative of the vote's outcome. So, right there, we can disregard any concerns for a majority of the players and focus exclusively on the "majority of the voters".

[dry depot]

phenomenologically speaking, people vote for things because they want their vote to matter, and to experience that vote "mattering" in some way, it has to engage in a contest with the votes of others. Whether Sandy is generally liked by all people or not is not the point of the vote. The point is that two options (in the Sandy, Waki, Basara example) surfaced as the most contentious of the options available, and the voters would rather see their selection in contest with the vote of those other more populous selections.

You can imagine it like a game: it doesn't matter whether everyone is "fine" with Sandy. People want bloodsport between Waki and Basara. That, I claim, is the point of a vote, and by allowing the randomizer to select an option that was clearly "unpopular" through the lens of the vote alone, is to negate the point of the vote.

If you want Sandy to be a relevant option (wherein its general popularity is accounted for), then players should be allowed to vote for multiple options, possibly through a ranked vote (I like Waki most, Sandy second, Basara third). In this instance, you would have actual evidence that Sandy is liked by all. At present, with only one vote, you cannot assume from the vote alone that Sandy is liked by all. (End of rant.)

Disclaimer: If there is a gap in the above argument, I had typed out a more thorough argument, but the bot said "less of that, try reading the rules" and then it deleted what I wrote. Maybe I wrote too much (okay, I guess...), but because it's gone now, I couldn't even edit it for length, but the above represents the conclusion, and if I need to flesh out any missing details on the Sandy/Waki/Basara example, I will.

[hazy steeple]

You are defo just saying words to sound smarmy lmao

well played sir

out jerked me

[steady sigil]

Me reading the 509281920385747901929848669509281920381011501019298
50928192038575010192984866th argument in #1133151405125935307

[hazy steeple]

then don't read it bruh

at this point I just discuss/argue for fun lol

[dry depot]

Thanks for wasting my time then

[hazy steeple]

that doesn't mean I'm wasting time lol

[dry depot]

I suppose not, because I think my argument is correct, and I'm not trying to out smarmy you.

Take it seriously or don't. GLHF

[atomic veldt]

I think neither of you said something clearly incorrect, just asserted that you can’t be certain about how a given example would turn out

[stray granite]

nah i think everything everyone has said is clearly incorrect. down with the system. rage against the machine. full anarchy, random maps each round

[hazy steeple]

finally, a good suggestion

Yea, I just don't agree that I want to see "bloodsport" between map votes? I just want a map picked lol

[olive cipher]

fyi, writing up walls of text and using big fancy words doesn't make your arguments any more compelling

brevity is the soul of wit

[hazy steeple]

honestly when I saw "phenomenologically" I kind of just assumed they were added to sound smart, no offense there.

Unless you did do that, then offense yea

[hazy steeple]

Also I don't vote because I want my vote to matter, I vote because I want to possibly see the outcome I voted for come to fruition. The contest of voting isn't what matters to me either. Like, I don't care if sandy got 20% and waki got 80%, I care that my map won or not. I don't care if my map is "in contest" with other popular maps. I doubt the majority of people voting to see if their map can win against waki. It isn't football or something.

If you see the point of voting as a vs match between two maps - that's cool, but I just don't think that's the purpose of voting in this game lol.

@atomic veldt summed it up pretty good, we both sort of just said the same thing with the initial blurbs of text; that "the vast majority of players would rather play any map other than the map with the least votes" isn't an accurate conclusion.

Which was the point of my 2am ramblings lol

[atomic veldt]

an interesting word. Not even sure what this means after the definition

[hazy steeple]

It has a lot of different definitions lol, I was looking around. I found like 3

One is says it's a synonym for philosophically, which seems to be how he used it?

[atomic veldt]

basically every argument here is based on us (collectively) projecting our personal motives and reasoning on the rest of the playerbase for the purposes of actually having something to talk about

[hazy steeple]

Yee

Plus it's fun to see people talk about why they value majority voting, why they think it's fair, or why random voting is better/more fair

I personally only care that one way is more fun. I think the current roulette provides the most engaging voting experience for me because I know there's a chance I'll get the map I picked no matter what - which encourages me to vote when I feel like voting.

But I'm also a weirdo who tends to prefer variety over the popular maps 24/7. I'm a night boi

[violet furnace]

Pick one person who voted for each map and let them 1v1v1v1, we play the winners map

[atomic veldt]

same - and if someone disagrees with me because they have a different subconscious response to the same stimuli, then too bad, their subconscious response doesn't make sense 😎

[hazy steeple]

I suggested this 😇

[hazy steeple]

and they're stupid ofc

and not heterosexual

Also they voted for obama

[violet furnace]

Cosmopolitanly speaking

[atomic veldt]

sometimes we can disagree but appreciate it isn't due to differing argument validity, but there are certain people you can just never reach that conclusion with

[hazy steeple]

Petition that all paragraphs must start with a long adjective that no one knows

[atomic veldt]

damn liberals wanting that fptp map voting system

[violet furnace]

Indubitably

[hazy steeple]

I concur most ferociously

[violet furnace]

Unfacetiously tho, two people can say “People’s votes should matter” and one can say the current system is better and one can say the old system is better

Because they matter in different ways

[hazy steeple]

@mossy mirage petition to add a 🧐 emoji to the feedback channel's name to represent our vast intelligence when compared to the general population of battlebit.

[violet furnace]

🧐

[hazy steeple]

That's something I was mentioning in my blurb I believe. It kind of depends what you view as "fair" or if votes "matter"

and that's like a philosophy debate that doesn't belong here lmao

[violet furnace]

I mean it’s kinda core to map voting feedback I think it does belong here

Also: reminder that the current system is mathematically equivalent to randomly picking one person who voted and letting them choose the map

[hazy steeple]

I mean more so it's kind of weird to be debating the deep philosophy of "map voting" and "voting" in general in the feedback fourms for battlebit lol.

[hazy steeple]

yee, it's mario kart rules

or SRB2k rules if you're cool

[violet furnace]

Well it’s the reason people prefer one system to the other

[atomic veldt]

People's votes on average matter equally on both, the point of contention is the distribution that should take.

[violet furnace]

Yep

In the end it really is just how much should we skew the distribution to the popular maps?

[hazy steeple]

Actually, I think the votes feel like they matter more with the roulette for map voting simply because you always have a chance to get your option picked, meaning your vote always matters. With majority voting (as it was at launch) popular maps would almost always get picked, or put on repeat in rush and 127s which made me feel like my vote mattered little if at all. Mathematically and all that it isn't true, but feelings wise it was at the time.

I mentioned earlier that with some tweaking and map % chance manipulation majority vote could work. I've actually described it before roulette was added too I'm pretty sure.

BUT, to be clear majority voting should only be used for map voting, not game mode voting. Either game mode voting should stay the same or each map should come with a gamemode pre-decided for it (waki on conq, sandy on frontline, etc) if voting was swapped back to majority.

[atomic veldt]

It isn't quite that, though. The FPTP system could allow minority opinions a majority representation as well, it just depends how fiercely each option was liked / disliked and by what proportion of players

(and on the distribution of the options that do show up as a result)

[atomic veldt]

Why's this?

[hazy steeple]

There's only like 5 game modes currently and they all appear at once. We want game modes to be able to repeat, but we also don't want the same game modes ALL the time. Before it was really difficult to get anything other than conq or rush (depending on server size).

[atomic veldt]

That is basically the response I would've given if you instead asked me why I thought it should apply to gamemode voting

[hazy steeple]

We want a certain amount of variety so repetition doesn't kill the game like it was at launch, but also we do want to be able to play the same game mode possibly.

[atomic veldt]

conquest won too much on large servers for sure but the current system just shifted that to inf conquest (same thing but a bit more boring) winning all the times conquest is not in the pool

[hazy steeple]

Well it's not ALL the time if you vote for something else. No one wanted game modes not to be able to repeat 😭

Servers I play on usually cycle between conq, frontline, inf conq, and domination

[atomic veldt]

Well, it is not like voting for something else really means anything...
even domination and frontline seem rarer than they were before conquest was artificially pushed down

somehow

and I've still only had one CTF game

[hazy steeple]

I completely disagree with that, that has not been my experience at all

CTF I agree with, but CTF ain't in a great state atm

[atomic veldt]

based on limited experience I like it

[hazy steeple]

it's fantastic on 64 players. The only game mode that's better on 64s imo

frugis 64 player ctf is just metro, and I love it

[low gull]

frontline feels to closed in and ctf is just a no for me
conq and dom

[hazy steeple]

On a diff topic, vehicles need to be added to more modes man

I'd vote for frontline and rush even harder if they had proper vehicle spawns and balance in them

[violet furnace]

Yeah it’s so lame that conq is the only mode with vehicles

CTF on bigger maps would be cool too

[limber light]

Might as well. It's functionally the same system and the results will be the same.

[brisk basin]

I would say not really

that would be no voting & random is the option chosen with equal weights on all maps

[severe hazel]

Truth

[severe hazel]

Lol pf course it will get more than the others

[limber light]

Nope! even 40% maps consistantly lose out to even a <10%. This is because the voting is functionally random.

[violet furnace]

🧐

[severe hazel]

Ok

Slaz, not to be weird but how old are you?

[stray granite]

I'd put all my BattleBucks on 42

[limber light]

Cringe. Looks like my last post was deleted.
Do you think losing 7000+ players in one month not a problem?

[low gull]

"look guys that's all because of that one thing i don't like, not the bugs, lack of major updates or lack of communication no no no"

[limber light]

Correct.

[low gull]

then quit the yapping lmao

[limber light]

Only when it's truely dead I will stop. As of right now, 8:47 on a Thrusday weekday there is only one 254 player infantry server and one 64 player Rush server active in Oceania. Can't even play this game during the weekdays now as so many players have dropped off after this mapvoting horror. There should be two full servers active.

Change it immediately or your game is doomed.

[low gull]

yes it's the map voting, not the other shit ton of issues the devs have to somehow magically solve
the map voting allows for more maps than basra, sandy, waki to be played on repeat

[limber light]

Yeah, it is. Good you agree Mr sarcastic. Mapvoting is the biggest problem in the game by far and it is the biggest cause of the game hemoraging keen players,

[cyan pine]

Slaz the problem is not you complaining, it's that your complaints do not have any logic behind them. Like assuming people are leaving just because of the one thing you don't enjoy and not the numerous things wrong with the game.

Or you calling people monkeys unironically...

[limber light]

It's not assuming. It's a fact. I myself, and everyone else I play with alt f4 and pass on many maps when they pop up randomly from the rng mapvoting. Do this over and over and eventually people will drop off entirely instead of waiting a full 25 minutes for a roll at the next map

[cyan pine]

Even this is a false assertion, you have no data to support this. When people ran polls it showed the exact opposite. Like at this point it should be clear to you that nobody will care about anything you say unless you can provide proof.

[limber light]

My posted was deleted. It had a link to steamDB which shows the decline immediately after the map voting was implemented.

[cyan pine]

You and everyone else you play with is at max. 20 out of 6000-10000 players... That's nothing.

[cyan pine]

My brother in christ the game has been losing players ever since launch. I check steamdb nearly every time I'm here. That means absolutely nothing.

Like you still trip over the same thing

[limber light]

When a full sever is 254 players, that is a lot since you need more people to play a full sever. Furthermore 10,000 is a drop from a 40,000 which is significant.

[cyan pine]

You just assume everyone else has the same problem as you without any proof, you criticize a system in such a bad way people think you actually don't know math.

[limber light]

It seems to be 9,000~ now

[cyan pine]

It's around 6k average now lmao

The game is steadily dying, but that's not only the map voting's fault

[low gull]

communication, updates, bugs...

[cyan pine]

class balance, attachments...

[limber light]

Maths is irrelevent when the system is functionally random. Sure, a map with 40% has a bigger chance to win - in a sample size of THOUSANDS of games. I will tell you this now, people are not going to be playing that long in it's current state. 30%-45% maps consistantly losing out to a 7% is map incredibly common and a very real experience ingame.

[cyan pine]

I know, that's what I argued with people on here

I'm talking about your general behaviour and how much your average arguments suck

[low gull]

yet it is better than a popularity voting system

[limber light]

Oki changing the horizontal recolil from 0.8 to 0.7 on x y z gun, changing the damage from 32 to 31, changing grass and lighting - and all these llittle useless minute changes like don't add anything to the game and should most definetly not be prioritized over something like map voting.

[low gull]

i got no words for that anymore

just

[atomic veldt]

Thousands of games? In a sample of 1 games it does, it is just much less precise.

If someone played like 20 games they’d likely get a pretty fair distribution of the maps

I don’t get why you seem to be under the impression that this form of randomness makes the system any worse.

With the old system it was random anyway, as the combination of maps that came up would determine the whole thing already. The only difference is that that randomness wasn’t displayed to the user as boldly.

I think the new system is less random than the old one. As the outcomes are closer to being inline with what the most people want the most

[limber light]

It does not. And even then mathmatically it has a 60% chance to lose tosome other random map with an aditional chance of Random being picked.

If the weighted map voting was working then it should be easy to see

[atomic veldt]

Mathematically in that one game it is most likely to be the option that the most people want. There is literally no possible system (theoretical or existing) better than this, if you’re speaking in terms of this.

Keep in mind that on a bad roll of the which-maps-show-up die, an unpopular map may be guaranteed to win in the old system :)

[severe hazel]

I want to report Slazenger for gaslighting

[brisk basin]

Vehicles

also I feel Slazenger is trolling at this rate

[limber light]

It's profound you can even say this. Next time you're ingame set up your filters to Oceania only and you will see the reality of this game..

[steady sigil]

The 4 people playing in oce

[atomic veldt]

yo guys those 4 people in oce have it so bad
we should let them decide how the game should be developed for the rest of us

[violet furnace]

Good job on 5th best transport what were you driving

[olive cipher]

i can't believe that the 2nd most voted for option won

what the fuck

[limber light]

Helicopter midjoin in an Am*rican server. They don't even hop out. 5 of them threw the game when I landed on F for a cluch win if we had captured but they would rather farm xp reparing and be useless. They flew back to base and the round ended before we could win. Lost by 50 tickets.

[limber light]

A map with 42 and 44% of the total votes lost out to Random, with half of that. Random should not even exist when the voting itself is random.

[olive cipher]

i can't believe that the option with less than half of the total votes didn't win

im going to choose to be outraged instead of touching grass

[limber light]

You're going to be touching grass regardless when the game is dead.

[limber light]

Yup. I have once again relaucned discord to announce that the next map after Salhan was once again Salhan. Great system you have here. In the previous version it was not possible to play the same map twice in a row. Since the map voting is functionally random, has Random, and since the hotfix/stealth update allows the same map to appear even after you just finshed it - you can pottentially play the same map over and over again.

[violet furnace]

I’m sensing a lot of negativity here

[brisk basin]

my job is literally touching grass in a nutshell lol

[zealous ermine]

How is this slaz guy not banned yet lmfao

[limber light]

Good grief.

[olive cipher]

good question

how long has it been, weeks? months? of him non stop whining and bitching and moaning and making non sequiturs

[cyan pine]

bruh imagine wanting to ban a guy that's complaining on a feedback thread

wanting a ban cause he keeps calling people monkeys is one thing

wanting a ban cause he's just complaining is another

[olive cipher]

dude has sent like 500 nonsensical messages in this thread alone

it hides any actual feedback any person with a brain might have

maybe don't ban him outright but he should not be allowed to post in this thread lmao

[cyan pine]

that's the average bbr feedback thread though, moderation should have been better in the first place

before we had entire threads derailed cause one person's fragile ego couldn't handle his ideas not being liked (iykyk)

if the feedback "communicators" can't be bothered to regularly check the thread to see what people are talking about and can get fooled by slaz's complaint spam then that's just a moderation issue

[olive cipher]

yeah

shit sucks

[limber light]

A perfect map lineup ruined by the random map voting voting Random.

[low gull]

2nd most voted 🤷

but tbh having a random option besides on top of a random vote selection is kinda yucky

[limber light]

Exactly.

[cyan pine]

it should be a reroll instead

[low gull]

idk how that'd work but it could be an option ig

[cyan pine]

I mean it's pretty straightforward, if reroll gets voted the most (i.e. people really don't like the map options) then the option gets removed and gives a new set of 4 maps. This time the voting is final.

[low gull]

k

[cyan pine]

https://tenor.com/view/wheel-of-fortune-wheel-wof-game-show-vanna-white-gif-19174111

[zealous ermine]

This is the main reason why. I don't mind his feedback even if it's... not very constructive

[zealous ermine]

I think this is a great idea. No comments

[olive cipher]

there needs to be an element of randomess

otherwise we go back to basra/valley/wakistan every single match. it was nauesating

like slazengar likes to pretend that the current map voting system makes people not want to play the game, but the funny thing is that it was actually true when voting wasn't random at all. people, including myself, genuinely did not want to play the game on the same 3-4 maps forever

[brisk basin]

So following options I have seen/comes to mind on map selection systems

1. Current : Weight based where your vote tips the scales to roll in your favor
2. Majority is Absolute : Old system, majority will always win & disregards other votes if they don't gain majority
3. Pure randomness (So effectively no votes)
4. Map rotation (rotates through a set order of maps & repeats)

If I am missing any, feel free to bonk me on the head

[atomic veldt]

I’ve suggested weighting a lottery system via approval voting (players can cast as many votes as they like, so the votes represent the maps the most people are fine with rather than the maps the most people have as their favourite)

[limber light]

Frugis with 40% votes lost out to Lonovo with 16. Alt f4 for me

[steady sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-face-typing-very-fast-gif-24785119

Insanity is

Doing the exact same fucking thing over and over again

Expecting shit to change

[atomic veldt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1165601104566964295/1170273937414950972/attachment.gif?ex=65587189&is=6545fc89&hm=4869fd5cffd164a45a15d9392284bcf3e81b5315ec1aab50fa84572f2589f90b&

[hazy steeple]

Petition to start posting everytime the most voted map wins

Like how slaz posts how the second most voted map wins

[hazy steeple]

You missed my idea. Everyone votes for their map and whoever votes gets put on a team with the other people who voted. They then fight it out and whoever wins gets the mask vote. Pure skill based vote system

Also petition to give Slaz a special town crier type role to reward his dedication

[twilit geyser]

God no, they changed again, We are going to play the same shit over and over again....

[atomic veldt]

WHY

seriously

they somehow made it even worse than the old system

[low gull]

waki, basra, sandy...

[twilit geyser]

I'm done with this game, I'm tired. I will play a lot less than before for sure.

[atomic veldt]

it is literally like 90% random now

[low gull]

what no?

random has to be voted

[atomic veldt]

random as in which maps are played

the players have almost no authority

just because it doesn't have a visual roulette doesn't mean this isn't just rng

the roulette system was literally the least random you can get

[low gull]

well

slaz won't mald anymore

[hazy steeple]

Well hold on

Maybe people won't complain now

[atomic veldt]

if slaz reiterated their points now I would actually agree with them

[hazy steeple]

let's let it cook a bit

We actually haven't had majority vote set up like this properly

so maybe it won't be so bad.... maybe

[atomic veldt]

may as well be actually random now

[hazy steeple]

but also Oki, bruh come on. At least he's giving choice to server admins though, which is good

OH SHIT

he's doing the thing I said

I just realized, played maps don't appear in the pool he said

"maps"

So maybe he's doing the maps don't appear for a bit thing

I literally am exempt from complaining about this. I'm the source of all the map vote problems 😭

[atomic veldt]

a bold claim

[atomic veldt]

what even prompted him to do this
this kind of system is generally disliked to begin with
and there is no advantage to lowering the options whatsoever

though it seems that the people in the discord mostly support it?

[hazy steeple]

Well, this is the way we (I) said majority vote could work in the game. So it's fine I guess. At least server owners get the choice - which is the most important thing imo

[atomic veldt]

server owners barely matter because almost all the playerbase is in official

except for OCE

I really think this will have a bad impact on player counts, based on the poll

[hazy steeple]

You have to remember, before with majority vote we had like 5 choices, and the current map could appear within those choices.

I do think we could possibly get a rotation of just the popular maps in a row if he didn't implement the "just played" maps not appearing properly tho

[atomic veldt]

the current map was unable to appear again in the old old system

in the old system that was fine as it made the chances of the maps being selected closer to ideal

still... I have reason to believe that this change will be both generally disliked as well as have a negative impact on how much fun people have in the game outside of just vote satisfaction

I think if we have to have so few options though, 2 would be better than 3 tbh

with 2 you don't have the vote splitting issue, so at least the players get to choose sorta fairly

[vale rose]

Doubling down on this was the funniest thing Oki could have done.

My sides.

[cyan pine]

This is just standard practice for oki at this point

we have all these feedback threads and he somehow manages to half ass the given feedback to make the shit he changed worse

[atomic veldt]

this is all slazenger's fault...

[cyan pine]

nah this is oki's fault

or moderation at large's fault

if their feedback filter cannot distinguish one person's complaint spam, or see what like 10 other people have said about the system then good riddance

[zealous ermine]

Y'all act like it's the final decision period

People obviously didn't like the decision, like we said. So he's trying something different

If people still don't like it, then he'll change it again

Maybe we should instead be thinking about what we as a community would best like as a system instead. For instance, like the veto system one of y'all thought of

Also blaming a change on any specific developer won't do any good either, just use some common sense guys

[cyan pine]

Bruh, this isn't the first time this shit happened

something exactly like this happened on this specific issue already

also there are literally 3 devs, and oki is the one who's in charge of the change in question

and it's much better than calling out a specific person in the feedback thread, who y'know has no say in the implemented changes

[zealous ermine]

And so it will probably happen again, until people settle on a decision that the community actually likes. The point is that it's not joever, we can still obviously make a change if we make a voice about it

[cyan pine]

The point isn't that a change happened, the point is that the change that happened is something people at large didn't ask for

[zealous ermine]

Calling someone out who's just trying to make a change to make a game better is unhelpful and counterproductive. I don't think yelling at the guy will make him want to listen any more, instead we should try to decide on something (like how a majority of people agreed the kriss had to be nerfed)

[cyan pine]

Like the point is shit like this makes people question whether feedback threads are actually being taken into account

instead of acting like people are upset over nothing maybe just maybe consider that they might have a point

[zealous ermine]

I never said you don't have a point to be upset, I'm saying it's just not the end of the world

Maybe I made it sound like that and i apologize, but I seriously think that this change is in our best interests

[cyan pine]

When did people act like it was the end of the world?

[zealous ermine]

.

[cyan pine]

People being upset over a change is different from people throwing fucking tantrum

[zealous ermine]

.

[cyan pine]

talks about "y'all"

proceeds to show a single person

[zealous ermine]

.

[cyan pine]

...

I have no words for this lmao

how is that an example of the thing you're talking about?

how will furthering the toxic positivity of this community help the game development idk but you do you

[zealous ermine]

That's a good point, I don't wanna feed the toxic positivity loop tbh

I'm just fearful of people throwing hate at people i respect. But I can see that I'm probably biased, so i won't weigh in further on the pointing fingers side of the argument

I'm sorry if i haven't made that clear, just trying to keep up with the messages as you send them. Should've put more thought into it though

Like i said before, maybe swapping out many different ideas could help us find common ground as a community on what we like best, since it's a more complex topic than just "this sucks vs. This is peak" (not saying anyone here necessarily has said this)

I'm gonna give this idea more thought since I wanna make sure my words are clear. Take care man

[atomic veldt]

basically one person didn't like it and posted complaints daily

[zealous ermine]

If it was just one guy that didn't like it, then i don't think Oki would have changed it. That's all I'll say.

[atomic veldt]

Mate just read through the chat logs here for like the past month

[weak cedar]

The poll on the subreddit showed a majority of players didnt like the new system

[atomic veldt]

I even did a poll and the great majority of people preferred the lottery systems

[weak cedar]

Why they only posted the poll to the subreddit i have no idea

[atomic veldt]

Was there an official one? I can’t find any

[weak cedar]

yeah they posted it to the reddit, im not sure if its still up

[violet furnace]

I wonder is Slaz is going to feel empty without a place to complain daily

[brisk basin]

we need @limber light feedback in here

[atomic veldt]

I can be the antislaz

Every time I see a map vote where the selection leads to an undesirable outcome I’ll post it here

[violet furnace]

Please do

Except for Dusty cuz I actually want to play the rework

Do we know how many rounds a map stays out of the voting pool?

[grave vale]

I think none iirc, that only applies to games modes rn

Oki reduced the number of maps that you can choose from 4 to 3 and made a random option along with it, so I could have the same effect but let's wait and see

[violet furnace]

Roulette map selection has been disabled, however, it can be enabled by server admins.
The map selection reduced to 3 maps (to less divide votes), the played maps won't show on pool.
What did he mean by “the played maps won’t show on pool” then?

[grave vale]

Huh, I'm not sure actually, maybe he did add a limit

I think he meant that it would reduce the amount of times the same map will show up, but I'm not entirely sure

[limber light]

I would be most keen to see and for everyone else to see. I already know it scarcely ever happens.

[limber light]

excellent! I am most eager to try this new system.

[tame dock]

Don't make us choose only one map! Players should be able to vote for multiple maps at once, and the one with the most votes wins; simple.

This process is called approval voting. Google it, it's effective at stopping vote splitting!

You can also make it so that a map needs 50% support to be played, or else a second round of voting occurs with only two options.

[zealous ermine]

This is a good idea in theory, but I feel like in practice it might end up make voting last too long

Maybe if the threshold was lower, or if it merely just picked the most voted

[tame dock]

I thought that as well, regardless I think the number of maps you can select should not be capped.

[zealous ermine]

I like the idea though, maybe if this new voting system isn't liked by the community either, they could try this approach

[atomic veldt]

I fully support that if it’s used to weight a lottery system, not with a FPTP system though

With large lobby sizes, map votes become very repetitive with a voting system that makes the favourite option win every time

At least the current one is mostly random, so it can’t get too repetitive

[limber light]

Fantastic voting system! Very nice mr develper. I am very satisfied. If I may point out, it still seems possible to play the same map twice if it comes up in the voting, which some may see as a shortcoming. Overall this is fantastic and will heal the game completely for me

[atomic veldt]

Trash voting system, 90% random and gives less interesting maps
Overall this is terrible and has completely killed the game for me

Look how player counts were ANNIHILATED after the update dropped

[zealous ermine]

LMAO

I hope it rebounds

[frail oyster]

NA and EU downtime range?

[cunning flume]

Nah, even in peak I've noticed like maybe 4-5 servers actually full for each region?

A lot of the maps feel very samey: Main area with multiple overlooking sniper points surrounding it from all angles

Or dense knife-fight city maps

Or just bad maps (looking at you, District rework)

[cunning flume]

NGL, I also kind of miss Night maps, I really enjoyed the different dynamic it gave

[hazy steeple]

Yea, tbh I just didn't boot up the game because of the finals being in beta

but also the update just didn't have anything actually interesting for me.

[dry latch]

please bring back the old voting

[last siren]

I dont even understand how the system works... I will see a vote have a higher precentage but then it goes with a different map....

[low gull]

yes because it's a weighted roulette system, the percentage says how likely it is for the map to be chosen

[amber cave]

There was a dip, but that is because people have to update their games. Graphs look pretty normal.

[cyan pine]

Man how did everyone miss the joke here

Is it because you rarely check up on these threads and somehow managed to miss slaz's nonsensical player count argument?

I guess we'll never know

[amber cave]

💀

[violet furnace]

I laughed hard at it

[limber light]

Beautiful. Keep it as it is.

[frail oyster]

This is the old system

[atomic veldt]

This is the old system but slightly worse

[dry latch]

old system (the lottery)

[atomic veldt]

the older one I meant

the old old system

this is much worse than the lottery one

[weak cedar]

Just do majority voting for game modes and remove the stupid rule that stops a gamemode from being played twice in a row. Make map voting a lottery but hide the number of votes each map gets.

Boom, I have now fixed every single problem everyone has ever had with any voting system in this game

[atomic veldt]

Game mode would be so much better with lottery

We would actually see something other than conquest sometimes

[weak cedar]

I could go either way on that. The biggest non moronic complaint I have heard about the lottery system is that people who want to play the same game mode repeatedly dont really get to.

[atomic veldt]

They would, since most people vote conquest anyway

But right now it’s just eternal alternation between inf conquest and regular conquest

[weak cedar]

Im talking about frontline

Currently extremely rare that there is a alive community frontline server, adding the ability for players to turn an official server into a pseudo frontline only server would alleviate that

[limber light]

2 Full server on a weekday in Oceania. Thanks so much Oki 👍

[cyan pine]

This is shortsighted

Game mode lottery killed rush servers

[atomic veldt]

game mode lottery never existed, did it?

[cyan pine]

Well, non-repeating game mode existed which killed rush servers

and the lottery would do the same thing

doesn't change my point one bit

[atomic veldt]

only if most people didn't want rush

[cyan pine]

my guy it's a lottery

[atomic veldt]

the non repeating thing capped it to 50%
with the lottery it could be significantly higher

[cyan pine]

even if most of them wanted rush it can and will land on something other than rush

[atomic veldt]

it would land on mostly rush.

[cyan pine]

that does not matter though

[atomic veldt]

?

[cyan pine]

if people want to play only rush they'll just leave the server when it doesn't land on rush

you keep arguing about how on large scales it leads to desired outcomes

but people experience the voting at small scales

which leads to them being annoyed

[atomic veldt]

I would be a bit surprised if they were only fine with rush and hated any alternatives

[cyan pine]

Then you have not read any complaints during the implementation of non repeating game mode change

[atomic veldt]

that capped it to 50%

if most people play for rush it would be a lot better than that

[cyan pine]

Why do you want to ignore that people can leave servers?

50% or not does not matter

[atomic veldt]

in what way am I ignoring it?

[cyan pine]

we have a, although niche, group of people who want to run rush 24/7

it does not matter if it's 50% or better

if the server changes from rush then they will leave

then that group did not get what they wanted

[atomic veldt]

too bad, they do not deserve 100% control over the servers

[cyan pine]

32v32 rush scene should just die then

cause we cannot be bothered to set up official servers

we just need to make do with moronic voting systems

one that depends on majority rule and the other that only shows its fairness after you played for 50 something hours

[low gull]

surely not because it's an update with major balance changes

[atomic veldt]

No, they should just accept they don’t deserve to have their say 100% of the time.

[cyan pine]

Solar, your idea for fairness and voting only works when you look at the big picture and ignore how players act

[atomic veldt]

If people play for more than like a couple of hours total then that’s a big enough picture for it to make sense

[cyan pine]

I think it's clear from reactions that it is not. How many games does one play in a couple hours anyway? 15? 20? I don't think that's enough to see the distribution clearly.

[atomic veldt]

You don’t have to see any distribution, you just have to enjoy playing the game

[cyan pine]

You don't have to defend your ideas, you just have to keep dodging criticism

I think you are too sensible to think people will not get upset over their perception of the voting system

[atomic veldt]

Yeah, but it seems most people preferred the roulette

So their perception of it would on average be better? Maybe not the rush players for game mode voting, but it is definitely not as though they are everyone

[olive cipher]

i liked the roulette

[cyan pine]

No, I agree on that part. Roulette was liked more as a whole.

[olive cipher]

i've said it before but an element of randomness is really needed in regards to the map voting, otherwise it's bound to get stale as the most popular picks get chosen 100% of the time

[cyan pine]

Even here the consensus seemed to be that the roulette could do with some minor adjustments and it was better than the "old" system.

[atomic veldt]

The current system doesn’t even do that, which is good in a sense but it is effectively just heavily random

Not for game modes since opinions tend to be more unanimous and options for game modes to show up aren’t so limited

But for maps it is random

I never see anything other than conq and inf conq any more and it’s boring.

[olive cipher]

yeah, i miss being able to play CTF from time to time

[atomic veldt]

Even just after it came out it was super rare

I played like one day later hoping it would still be popular so I could get some games in but couldn’t find anything

[cyan pine]

and that's why I would not want a lottery for the game mode. When you get a server that's full of people who want domi, ctf etc. you get to keep that. The thing is conquest is the most popular game mode and it will probably be the most popular for BBR's entire lifetime.

We don't need to fuck with that, we can just have other smaller groups that can have their own servers that fit their preference.

[atomic veldt]

You don’t get servers full of people who want domi or ctf, or frontline. That kinda happened when the game released but we just don’t have that freedom of server choice anymore

[cyan pine]

Or you can do the more sensible thing and run a couple official game mode locked servers

[atomic veldt]

The point is, a lottery would still let conquest win most of the time, but we would see the other game modes sprinkled in for variety sometimes.

Right now being capped to 50% harms it somewhat

[cyan pine]

Look how mad people got over getting "forced" variety in map voting. It'll be even worse for game mode since some game modes outright don't provide gameplay some people enjoy

but ngl at this point I'm not even sure the voting can handle another "rework" by oki

[atomic veldt]

Most of them liked it

[cyan pine]

I'm not talking about the amount there, I'm talking about the intensity of the reaction

[atomic veldt]

Personally I don’t have any major preferences between any of the game modes, they’re all pretty good except for I guess inf conq since it’s just slightly worse conq
I just don’t want to do the same thing every time

[cyan pine]

maps are less controversial than game modes

[atomic veldt]

Is your source here really gonna be slazenger

They’re like 90% of the complaining here

I don’t remember anyone else having strong opinions against it

[cyan pine]

You have people who almost exclusively play around vehicles, you have people who just lay down in base and take 1000+ m sniper shots. These are not supported on all maps.

[cyan pine]

it's not just slaz, I'm not slaz enough to form arguments that weak lmao

[atomic veldt]

Maybe their complaining made the others merge into the background

But discounting that one individual I don’t have any reason to believe the intensity of the preferences of either side are imbalanced

I guess it’s possible to do a survey on that, would need something better than a reddit poll though

[violet furnace]

Confirmation bias is one hell of a drug

[limber light]

You quite littearally have a vote called "Random" which selects a map out 0f <21 potiential maps

[weak cedar]

🐿️ self react

[mortal tangle]

please please PLEASE return weighted-roullete voting

I haven't seen River, or 80% of other maps once, since the new patch

most people don't choose random

and its back to tensa and waki circle, with some valley in between

it was SOO good with the roullete

[weak cedar]

Get ready to never see river again

before lottery I played for over 200 hours without seeing that map once

[mortal tangle]

people had gripes with the roullete, cause it wasn't clearly explained it was weighted-random vote

but i still think it was the best option

[weak cedar]

That was part of it, but even people who understood how the system works still had issues with it

The two biggest problems people had was seeing a map that had the plurality losing felt bad, and that people feel very strongly, for whatever reason, that the best way to choose a map is by majority rule.

I think most of it was the first issue, which the roulette animation definitely did not help with.

[mortal tangle]

then the "weighted" system should be used in reverse: the more the map IS selected (over multiple voting sessions), the less likely it is to show up in the voting options

for the next round

i am all for "majority vote wins", but not the same 2 maps over and over. So force the selection options to be more ... "open"

[hazy steeple]

Haven't played too much, but my biggest suggestion for a roulette improvement - which I've mentioned previously - was to hide the odds. Surprisingly, makes people complain less.

But if the current system works beter for some, good then yo

[violet furnace]

If we’re gonna do current system it needs to take maps out of the pool

Just got namak, tensa, namak, tensa

Like who voted to play those again right away???

[waxen wagon]

The math is pretty clear, the probability for any 2 maps, say namak or waki, to appear at the end of a round is 33%. That means every 3 rounds you are playing waki or namak since that is all people vote for.

Ridiculous

revert to roulette

[limber light]

If you want your random map voting back then vote "Random", it will give you a random map out of however many maps the server is running. 17 for mine. 👍

[atomic veldt]

That makes the system the most random it can possibly be. The roulette system was the least random it could possibly be.

That is the opposite of what we want

Well actually no, it wasn’t the least random, but it would’ve been if done properly

But it was a bit less random than the others

[limber light]

No, that's exactly what you want.

[atomic veldt]

-_-

[weak cedar]

Yeah i wouldnt bother explaining this to slaz

he has no understanding of what weighted probability is

[hazy steeple]

I'm honestly impressed how slaz can somehow still hate when he got what he wanted

[limber light]

No hate here fam. Just still a bit surprised people who have now just been granted real actual tanglble power to vote and influence the map voting to vote for whatever they want (including Random which will give them a Random map) are still throwing a sook.

[atomic veldt]

That is literally what we lost

[weak cedar]

Man, i think you might be the single stupidest person i have ever talked to

[atomic veldt]

The map that wins now, on a larger server size at least, is literally almost completely dependant on what 3 maps happen to show up in the pool

Little better than purely random

Same goes for game mode voting, though that’s always been broken. You can vote for ctf or frontline as much as you like, but you’re not gonna get any representation with how things are now.

[cyan pine]

Man slaz, did you even try to understand what other people said to you?

[atomic veldt]

I'm actually gonna make that funny voting sim thing to estimate how popular any given system is rn

[olive cipher]

xd

[atomic veldt]

he he he ha

[cyan pine]

It's slaz, did you expect anything else?

[atomic veldt]

getting somewhere here... it would be funny if I proved myself wrong with this lol

[atomic veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/zane-ninjago-lego-ninjago-death-fail-gif-22975365

ok I definitely did something wrong here because apparently the lottery is worse than pure randomness

damn it I might actually be wrong here

apparently the optimal system is actually the FPTP thing with exactly 5 options in the map pool?

basically what this does is creates 100 voters per iteration, with x maps to choose from. Each map has its own distribution of how much players like it, with five options (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2) to represent their feelings about the map. Each voter chooses between -2 and +2 for each map depending on its distribution.

When the maps in the pool are selected, the voters find their favourite one of the options and vote for that. It then resolves the winner as it does in game, then asks each voter how they felt about the map that was chosen (-2 to 2) and sums this. The average of this from all trials (I'm running 5000 simulations on each rn) is the satisfaction with the final system

not perfect and I arbitrarily set the map's preference distributions, but... this is concerning.

@limber light you may have been right all along, though not for the right reasons...

Maybe I'll try some other systems and see what it spits out

just as I thought...

I think I will try simulating a lottery with approval voting instead of singular voting

[atomic veldt]

There is an issue here. Voters don't care about playing the same maps in a row, so even if the same map wins 100% of the time it ranks fptp highly. I will need to come up with a way around that

[atomic veldt]

well. This is the best I can do without factoring in tactical voting and such. If everyone is under the presumption that the system is fair this is something close to approximately how satisfied they might be with the vote outcome

[split copper]

honestly im not surprised. Most people like the most common maps (frugis, waki) so when their maps win on repeat they will be happier. Since they are a majority then they get the most satisfaction.

[split copper]

What if you simulate 24/7 waki or 24/7 frugis? that might actually increase satisfaction as the satisfaction number would be the % of people who like the map

[atomic veldt]

Will do in a bit. There is a punishment to satisfaction for playing the same map multiple times but idk how realistic it is

[mortal tangle]

people don't vote random, people don't want random. People like to choose what they want. When presented with a list of 3 shitty maps, people still want to pick their most bearable out of the poor selection (not rely on random and get even worse). "Better the devil you know" as they say. So saying that "Random is an option" doesn't help.

And I am all for "majority wins" within the given choice, as long as waki/tensa/namak doesn't appear in every single voting round

[high drift]

Ok they changed it back, when are the +7000 daily players coming back?

[tame dock]

Very interesting! I wonder why approval was second to last in satisfaction with your results.

[waxen wagon]

What is the distribution of player opinion on maps, uniform? I think that may be the problem here

[atomic veldt]

I have no idea :p

[atomic veldt]

I made it up arbitrarily based on experience :)

[waxen wagon]

very good

[atomic veldt]

there is a punishment for playing maps on repeat but it is quite crude. If the map has been played within the last 4 matches, for 67% of the players, they have the score of that map reduced by 1

[atomic veldt]

I did also try inverting the weights of the preferences, this did not change the ranking at all though. Basically just inverted the final scores :p

[hazy steeple]

Voter satisfaction is really arbitrary and depends on stuff

you're assuming you're only satisfied on a win, but that isn't the case I think

It also doesn't account for getting a map a few times in a row, or losing multiple times in a row

Also, if Waki and such are the favorite maps of the game, it stands to reason that people would naturally be more "satisfied" by playing on them constantly/more often.

I think the people who get pained the most by majority vote are actually the ones who play the game the most, since they'll be the ones who play on the maps the most.

Also something that may not be accounted for (not sure honestly, didn't analyze this a lot) is the fact that the voters swap out a lot between rounds. So people voting one time may not be the same peeps voting the next

Also a ton of people don't vote in general. A nice boon of the roulette was that even if I didn't vote I would get variety, but I COULD vote if I wanted something specific to try to influence it.

TLDR: I have no idea what your simulation accounts for, how it runs, or what the logic is, and I didn't look into it that much lol

[steady sigil]

Omg

So many players

[hazy steeple]

Steam DB comparison

It's more of a linear decline, not a steep drop off. That top chart also shows like data before the game launched in EA. Idk how accurate that is

we're at around 10-9k atm, which is a low

but it's not like a crazy low or anything. The game is falling off at a pretty normal rate for multiplayer games like this I think. I personally haven't been playing because I have like 200 hours in the game lmao

[atomic veldt]

No, that is quite specifically not what I did, this is not just whether their option wins or not. It is possible for them to not get what they voted for but still get high satisfaction as they like the map

[atomic veldt]

but that is true

[atomic veldt]

I tried to do that by giving voters "memory" but it is a pretty crude system

[hazy steeple]

Ah ok. Either way though I personally think it's pretty arbitrary. It may be more useful to run the simulation to see how options get picked/pan out. Like "How often did people who voted for Waki win" by making "users" vote for waki more often or something.

It's a good sim though, still interesting

[atomic veldt]

it is pretty arbitrary on several levels in how it's set up

any more factors I can think of including are either too complex to bother with (like strategic voting) or just don't seem like they'd affect the comparisons much

[weak cedar]

I mean, you would expect the average voter satisfaction to be higher with winner takes all, its just that a smaller group of players have a higher satisfaction.

Like im pretty sure that its just mathematically true that winner takes all is the best way to increase voter satisfaction by how youre measuring it if that is what we are trying to optimize for.

[hazy steeple]

Something not measured for is the amount of satisfaction too

[atomic veldt]

it is, just in a basic 1-5 rating system

I could make it more granular fairly easily

[atomic veldt]

depends entirely on the context

[atomic veldt]

I expected it to be lower before making this

[hazy steeple]

When i say amount i more so meant how it changes from game to game. But i guess your system did account for that a bit too with the game to game adjustment. Like i said, didn't read into it much so appreciate the corrections

Like when Waki wins 5 times in a row it'll only make those upset who were still playing in the same server

Hell, maybe you could have an "upsetness" value that resets satisfaction to simulate a player getting replaced with a new player when the upsetness gets so low they "leave"

That's just overcomplicated tho tbh, but a fun thought

[weak cedar]

No, it is true that the total voter satisfaction will be higher if for every map choice you only choose the highest approval map.

[atomic veldt]

it will correlate for sure

[weak cedar]

That will always be true unless you change how you are calculating satisfaction

[atomic veldt]

but the strength of approval / disapproval is not fixed

which is the key thing

you can have 90% of people be ok with a map but if 10% really hate it then on average it's a bad one

[hazy steeple]

so the opinions are weighted, I getcha

Maybe it's less so "players are less satisfied" and more "players are more meh"

Like, maybe majority has more of the +2's so it naturally has more satisfaction, but weighted roulette has more "meh's" weighed down by some Slaz's being like "OMG THIS SUCKS" making it less satisfying

[atomic veldt]

maybe

[hazy steeple]

I'm curious, are the amount of satisfied people more in majority than the amount of "meh" people in weighted random?

I say people like these are actual people lmao

Something I personally always find interesting about data and simulations are the conclusions you can draw from how they're setup, ran, and the results. So sorry if I'm asking a ton of dumb questions 😂

You know, I'ma do a faux pas here. @untold river Do you have any recent map statistics at all? Preferably seperated between when roulette was implemented and when it was the previous ver of majority vote? It might help out with this convo - or at least be pretty interesting.

[untold river]

https://battlebit.observer/
https://grafana.jackdouglas.dev/public-dashboards/dc5f1978d69f4a049db44c1a93c039d7
No data at hand, but you may observe and track here

[hazy steeple]

Appreciate you ♥️

Ooo seeing the maps being played live is cool

It's actually pretty even, but it could be skewed by customs not having some maps or not allowing voting still cool af though

[limber light]

They are already coming back. I litterally played a full server last night and the night before in OCE while another one was full too. However, since we're already on the topic of playercount there was litterally a banwave consisting entirely of players getting banned for Racisim/Descrimination - not a single one for cheating exploiting. Wtf?

[cyan pine]

Slaz... the player count is still going down. How are they "already coming back"?

[limber light]

Becuase I can play in a full server now during the weekdays which I couldn't do before.

[violet furnace]

He’s the human embodiment of confirmation bias that’s how

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[cyan pine]

He has all the "wow people really are bad at logic" terms

[cyan pine]

Such solid data, foolproof argument

[violet furnace]

My friends and I always debate whether it’s intentional that logic isn’t taught in school (until college and even then it’s optional) despite it being probably more important than math

I took a class “Logic and Proofs” in college, could’ve easily been a high school class. Was incredibly useful.

Turns out monkey brains aren’t too good at logic by default

[high drift]

#998174250483593296 whats this?

[steady sigil]

Outdated

[hallow fulcrum]

Getting rid of the weighted chance-based map voting has already made the game feel more stale (at least in my experience). Did devs say why they reverted it?

[waxen wagon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/17qxts5/official_na_server_variety_atm/

[limber light]

Good.

[low gull]

waki nerd

[olive cipher]

imagine backpedaling on a good change because of a very vocal minority bitching and moaning about their favorite map not being picked 100% of the time

[high drift]

Tbf, the mention of it on #dev-wip has more Thumbs Up than Thumbs Down. Oki can't really win and fully satisfy both parties, which is why there needs to be a compromise.

[atomic veldt]

In a dedicated poll that provided a clear description of both methods though, a great majority voted for a lottery system

[high drift]

Source?

[warped solar]

bring back weighted lottery pls

[high drift]

I mean, this topic is clearly a case for #devs-asking and should have put there to begin with, instead of going back and forth

[olive cipher]

this isn't a compromise, this is back to square 1

[high drift]

yeah i know that majority voting isnt a compromise

[junior hemlock]

lmao back to the clown show

roulette was good, could've been more graphical so the brainlets actual grasp how it worked

[high drift]

I mean it pretty was graphical already and it should not take long to figure out why some maps "pop" up more than others.

[warped solar]

bring back roulette

It was weighted

Its not like the minority maps won often

That barely happened

But it was enough to get some fucking variety

If y'all really complaining that much you can just increase the weight

I don't understand how people would rather play the same maps over and over again

[hallow fulcrum]

Wait, so the change was reverted for all two million copies sold because 200 people upvoted that particular post in discord?

I definitely feel like polling like that needs to be done in-game, but that's probably off topic in this channel

[vale rose]

Huh.. what ever happened to asking before making large changes? https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/419375666954502144

[amber cave]

I think we’d all agree #devs-asking is a good starting place for changes like this.

In game polling could happen, but I don’t think it’s the best use of development time to create because we have 1 dev.

[vale rose]

People who want to see positive change in the game need to be active in the communities, I don't even think that map rating does anything i'm pretty sure it just buttons to keep people busy during the map change count down.

[high drift]

"People who want to see positive change in the game need to be active in the communities" I'd love to. But Idk if it's worth it.

Partially also "because we have 1 dev."

[vale rose]

But idk if it's worth it

[high drift]

Yeah fine I will do it anyway, but I am still a bit saddened that I didnt even get any feedback about my first content idea (18 page word document).

[hallow fulcrum]

I mean, I agree people who are active in the community outside of the game should have their voice heard, but that channel should at least be advertised in game if it has such an impact on future updates. I can't even find anywhere in the Discord server that mentions upvotes/downvotes determine game changes there

[vale rose]

The votes only apply if Oki feels like they do, it's all really just hoping the devs looking for opinions.. this is a patriarchy.

So advocacy is the only tool for us to use to get the thing we want to see in the game, meaning those voices have to come to the right channels to do so if they don't they just get added to collective 'noise' and are not heard.

[hallow fulcrum]

meaning those voices have to come to the right channels to do so if they don't they just get added to collective 'noise' and are not heard.
Exactly, which is an inherent flaw when those channels are not flagged in any way as being where the advocacy should be directed. If advocacy is actually wanted, it should be a priority to make it as accessible to as many players as possible. Look at OSRS for a good way this could be done with in-game polls / feedback

[vale rose]

Not all advocacy is wanted.

[hallow fulcrum]

Yeah but requiring a scavenger hunt and tribal knowledge to get there isn't a good solution either - there's definitely a middle ground there somewhere

[vale rose]

There is if oki wants there to be, I'm sure he's got the sample size he wants to hear from and it's not from here .. that's for sure.

[hallow fulcrum]

lmao this obviously isn't useful - especially for this channel

[amber cave]

I feel ya

[atomic veldt]

73% of respondents picked one of the lottery options

[cyan pine]

This is not a good metric lmao

[high drift]

I know, but its not that bad either

[cyan pine]

No, it is straight up bad

I just went there to put a thumbs down on it

You have a small percent of players who actually use this discord and even less keep up with upcoming updates

[high drift]

Yeah and not everyone uses reddit either

[cyan pine]

Well, I did not say the reddit poll was a good metric either

[high drift]

Well unless you ask every Player you will never have a good metric. Best would be to replace it shortly with the map feedback system at the end of the round (thumbs up thumb down), on the right.

[weak cedar]

That is absolutely not true. To get a good metric you need as little bias in your sample as possible, which is not achieved by only posting the poll in either discord or reddit

what would be best is to give the poll to people in game

but if the devs dont want to do that im sure there are other ways to make sure the poll isnt as biased

[atomic veldt]

more representative of the average player than the discord

I think the only thing better would be actual in-game polls

[limber light]

If you want your awful random map voting back then vote "Random". This option will give you a random map out of however many maps the server is running.

[weak cedar]

Slaz can you stop being stupid for one day

[cyan pine]

No, he solely exists to say dumb shit

[molten torrent]

Yeah the revert to voting sucks, back pedaling one of the positive changes they made

[wanton grotto]

Bring back Weighet Voting roulette, OR make all votes not used automatically go to random (again). These are literally the only 2 fair options.

[atomic veldt]

That second option was horrific

Pure random is the worst voting system possible

It is not fair

[wanton grotto]

It was only bad when it had night included in it. Right now the braindead hivemind people are on the loose and we're seeing a rapid incline in Waki, Namak, Sandy etc. Its better random than just the bad maps that the NPCs like.

[atomic veldt]

It is worse than any other system even without night. At least with the current system on average the more liked maps are played more

[brisk basin]

I feel like my vote doesn't matter much now

constantly outvoted 😦

so much wakistan today

[weak cedar]

No no you dont understand

its actually that your vote didnt matter in the lottery system because it was just gonna be random anyways

[brisk basin]

It did always effect the outcome some

now it is , the only votes that matter are the majority

[atomic veldt]

It always mattered every time in the lottery

You voting would always change the average outcome by the same amount as everyone else

With the current one it will vary from your vote not mattering at all to mattering much more than it deserves to just by the combination of maps that show up and your own preferences

[split copper]

I hate how 50+ votes will get thrown away because the same 40 people want waki

[cunning flume]

I'm really enjoying my time playing waki-sandy-waki-basra-sandy-waki-basra, extremely interesting and dynamic

With the occasional district thrown in to depopulate the server

[high drift]

Zalfi, dont forget Zalfi 👆

[atomic veldt]

Zalfi is a tad bit overrated tbh

It looks pretty but much of the map is not that nice to fight in

[cyan pine]

average battlebit map in a nutshell

[waxen wagon]

can we go back to roulette thanks

[warped solar]

go back to roulette

[brisk basin]

Back to Roulette

Maro cart style

Make all Votes matter again

[limber light]

Vote Random if you want your random map voting back. Fulfills the same function.
I played in a full server on a monday night in Oceania thanks to the map voting. No more BS maps that depopulate the server to nothingness. Gonna play Tuesday now too 👍

[brisk basin]

Slaz WE NEED TO MAKE EVERYONE VOTE MATTER AGAIN!

ROULETTE VOTING SHALL BRING BACK OUR PLAYER NUMBERS!

[split copper]

Votes for random get thrown out because people want to play waki and sandy. Voting for random is now useless because they throw the votes away

[limber light]

Random has won multiple times tonight for me. Went to Wakistan for one of them however.

[split copper]

i never saw random win since the update.

[low gull]

mf screaching about waki-basra-sandy-basra-district-waki-sandy-lonovo-sandy-basra and last but not least waki being good for the game

[violet furnace]

New map voting is killing the game

[low gull]

who would've thought that the voting system that ignores votes is bad 🤔

[cyan pine]

wdym? didn't you see slaz saying he can play in a full server on a monday night in OCE? The average player count decreasing (even more than last month) does not mean shit if slaz found a full server on a monday night in OCE.

[violet furnace]

Oh great point, well thought out and you really addressed my concerns

[cyan pine]

don't thank me, thank slaz

[atomic veldt]

Thank you, Slazenger!

[prime hinge]

Single worst change to go back to majority voting. Unplayable during night when there is 1 server with any people and its 2 same maps all night.

[severe hazel]

I cba to read anymore of this

Havnt played for ages

Is the map voting good right now?

[low gull]

no.

[violet furnace]

Back to the original but with a random option

I liked roulette better for sure

[cyan pine]

From the looks of it neither can the BBR feedback team

[brisk basin]

it's decreasing FASTER now?

[cyan pine]

the decrease percent is larger yes

[olive cipher]

no

[brisk basin]

@limber light WE SHALL NEED ROLUTTE VOTING, MAJORITY BE KILLIN THE GAME!

[limber light]

Vote Random if you want your random map voting back. It's quite telling that you fellas call it roulette which is the most random gambling system ever.
Gonna play Wednesday tonight too if all goes well. 👍

[brisk basin]

Random map voting is not the same

get it right

also the most random gambling system is pure random & I put money on map

but I am tired of waki for the 50th time

in the last two days

[weak cedar]

no bro you dont understand

you can just vote random

[limber light]

It's the same. It will give you a random map out of however many maps the server is running. Before it was a random vote out of 5 potential maps in the end of game map line up, with 1 of them being Random.

I used to alt f4 on Wakistan all the time now I'm foaming at the mouth at the mere chance of it potentially showing up.

[weak cedar]

Dont bother explaining hg

[brisk basin]

Slaz the game is dying with this current voting system

[weak cedar]

he wont ever get it

[limber light]

It's healing for me. Damage has been done, yes, between the forced Random/nightmaps and the random percentage system over the last few months but the game is completely playable during the weekdays now. 👍

[vale rose]

I think map voting preference is a very regional thing, and servers should probably account for that.

Slaz might be right, I'm sure OCE might be very happy about it going back to popular vote.. but what about everywhere else?

Making another huge change like voting with out somekind of mass discussion was a mistake, again..

[rigid musk]

I dont like map voting in general, roulette or not. Go back to the old days of set rotations and have an official server in every region thats Waki 24/7

[cyan pine]

This is not subjective. I get that you suck at math but I doubt you can't sort numbers.

[cyan pine]

Here's the thing, official servers has been a constant suggestion since the start of the fucking thread. But since oki cannot be bothered to actually listen to feedback when changing map voting all we have gotten is voting systems that left nobody fully satisfied.

[prime hinge]

Just keep the trash majority system for BDSM private servers, Waki/frugis enjoyers, and let the rest play normally

[low crypt]

Make a rotation or bring back roulette. Miss the diverse maps

[twilit geyser]

Bring back roulette system,it was the fairest system. Now the game is fucking boring.

[limber light]

Vote Random

[cyan pine]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-day-dreaming-thinking-simpsons-gif-8949118

[limber light]

Voting Random will give you a random map out of however many maps the server is running.

[cyan pine]

Slaz, unlike you I do not struggle with math or definitions. No need to elaborate.

[weak cedar]

I think in his head he just genuinely believes that all random distributions are uniform

[cyan pine]

Probably, although at this point I think he just does not have a head.

https://tenor.com/view/scary-creepy-headless-man-drive-thru-gif-3317328

[steady sigil]

Slaz repeating the same thing for the 20294840101938596959th time

[zealous ermine]

im pretty happy with this voting system tbh. was a good change

[olive cipher]

strongest roulette hater

[zealous ermine]

yeah, i like men. dont see how that has to do with battlebit tho

[olive cipher]

have you thought of hooking up with slaz

[zealous ermine]

dont know the guy and im happily in a relationship

again not related to the battlebit map system tho

if you dont got a good argument against me, I don't see how pointing out things you dont like about me personally will do any good lmao

anyways I've seen a lot less general discourse around voting when picking for a map ingame, people seem to be pretty happy with what maps are voted on

[olive cipher]

im sure people are very happy, it's not like dozens of people have complained in this channel already, when basically no one besides a single shitstain was complaining about the roulette

if you're someone who enjoys playing only on wakistan, basra, and valley, then by all means enjoy yourself as much as your limited cognitive functions will allow you to

[weak cedar]

The argument has been said here many many times. It boils down to lottery voting being more fair over time.

There is a plurality of people who want to play the same few maps in rotation, and a smaller portion of people who want to play other maps, who's vote gets split between the other maps, so the smaller maps rarely if ever win in winner takes all. Lottery fixes this, and lets all people get to play the map they want for an amount of time proportional to the number of people who want to play a specific map.

With lottery, the most popular maps get to be played the most, but the less popular maps still get to be played.

As for player's reactions to it, I'm not sure how much of that is caused by bias from where you are getting the reactions, bias from people not understanding how lottery works (probably largely due to the way the UI presents the voting process), or even bias from people being used to political systems having a default winner takes all voting system.

[zealous ermine]

a really good point that i havent considered

[weak cedar]

Also you have to be careful when looking at the reception of a given voting system. Since there is a majority of people who prefer repeat maps, we would expect a majority of people to prefer winner takes all, as they get what they want more often with it.

[low crypt]

Has anyone discussed ranked choice voting? Basically, everyone votes for their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc favorite options. The least supported option of everyone's 1st choice has it's votes redistributed to the 2nd choice of those who voted for it. Their votes are absorbed into supporting one of the winning options. And so on, eliminating the losing options until you're left with the winner. If you Google "ranked choice voting demo" the RankVote demo is a great visual for how it works. 🍔

Might be a bit much for this player base, but with a good UI that clearly shows what's happening, it would be a nice middle ground between popularity and lottery votes.

Your vote for an unpopular map won't be wasted because it gets moved to support another option that is still preferable to Waki, even if not your 1st choice

Added benefit it would give us something to do and think about during the fucking-forever 45 seconds between matches.

[weak cedar]

i havent thought about ranked choice but i agree the waiting time between games is pretty stupid

even when the map loads in, there's like a minute long timer of nothing happening

[prime hinge]

Unnecessary complication when you already have the fairest of all options readily available with 1 click. 1 player gets 1 voice. 1 voice is chosen at random. everyone has equal chance to play what they want. why invent anything else?

[cyan pine]

It has been brought up

doubt oki will ever listen to it though

since he fucking went back on the lottery

the more popular system both here and on the subreddit

[weak cedar]

There are two main downsides to the lottery system. One is that it only approaches the real distribution, it never perfectly matches it, and sometimes it can take a while to get close to the actual distribution. Two is that it can feel pretty bad to see that a map with 1 vote won over a map with 50+ votes, for example. So a solution that has all the benefits of lottery without the downsides would be better.

[cyan pine]

you can limit the lottery to the top 3 most voted maps

[prime hinge]

you seriously think it matters if it approaches perfect distribution, to people who wanted the majority back, using the argumentation that 1% vote gets chosen 80% of the time?

[cyan pine]

also the "random" option is fucking awful, should be turned into a reroll imo

[prime hinge]

i mean who cares what the "feeling" or "perception" of dumbos is? if you gonna cater to that you gonna select the playerbase for "dumbness"

[weak cedar]

The whole point of a video game is to make people feel good for playing it. Obviously the way people feel is extremely important to how you design your game, even if it's not the most elegant solution.

[weak cedar]

This just means that extremely unpopular maps wont ever get played. Not too big of a deal, but still not great

The best solution i have seen to that is to just hide the voting numbers

[prime hinge]

different games have different points, take D$ and poe for example, one is for wider/simpler audience, another is for people that are a bit more complicated in their gaming

[cyan pine]

Extremely unpopular maps maybe should not get noticable play

[prime hinge]

this not being another COD i would think this had an idea to be the "real" shooter

[cyan pine]

considering they are extremely unpopular for a reason

[prime hinge]

and why not play unpopular maps? maybe then delete them from game?

[weak cedar]

True, I dont think there are many if any maps that would be impacted by that, but if there are any you might as well just be deleting them from the game

[prime hinge]

imo the roulette had a benefit that people arent talking about, first of all its discovery of things that dont happen on majority. some people never played certain maps, or night mode. second its playtesting the less popular choices and figuring out what is the problem with them by feedback.

i personally had a lot of fun in modes/maps i would never vote for, and because it refreshes the gameplay.

[low crypt]

This is the main point for me re: the reversal of the lottery. I felt a participant of an interesting moment every time something unexpected spooled up. Majority voting makes the game feel really flat

[cyan pine]

it's extremely unpopular maps, and I don't think it applies to battlebit all that much. The maps are at best mediocre and most of them suck the same amount.

While playtesting and all that is cool, people generally do not enjoy playing on shit maps. Forcing that to happen just cause you want playtesting will frustrate people.

[prime hinge]

That's why we want it weighed, so the occurrence of such maps is only to the extent of votes they collect

[olive cipher]

a map's popularity is largely unrelated to it's quality

valley is very popular and i'd go as far as to say it's one of the worst maps in the whole game. huge stretches of nothing, with 2 points being backcapped all game, and a middle point shitfest with little cover where 90% of the players are

[cyan pine]

that's like 60% of the maps though lmao

[cyan pine]

and that's the thing here, just look at slaz's complaints. People are not able to or refuse to understand that the voting results approach the percentages. While trying to make voting fair, we should be careful to not make it frustrating.

I still prefer the roulette much more don't get me wrong, but you have to consider experience of the whole player base

[prime hinge]

I'm not sure what are you implying, unfair = not frustrating somehow?

I'd say it's pretty frustrating for 56 people when votes are split 28-28-30 like they often are

[twilit geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/golden-noice-meme-gif-26450179

nobody will play the new gamemode because of vote system. Noice

[cyan pine]

Man I chalk this up to the nature of discord discussions but that's not what I'm talking about. Like in your example if you have 28%-28%-30% split between 3 maps those 3 have to be the top 3 votes and you'd have a lottery between them.

All I'm suggesting is that the extremely low voted maps maybe should not enter the lottery. A map with 5% votes winning over a map with 30%-40% votes just feels frustrating.

Although when you take a look at the voting results as a whole that scenario is uncommon, this does not change the fact that people experience the result immediately after the voting.

[prime hinge]

I fail to see how pleasing 1/3rd and frustrating 2/3rds that failed to get majority is solving the problem.

[cyan pine]

Um...

Top 3 most voted cannot only satisfy 1/3 of the voters...

You currently have 5 options, if you evenly distribute votes between them and arbitrarily pick 3 maps that'd satisfy 60% or so (not talking about a single vote here)

I'd say cut the random option, turn it into a reroll that works only once and cut the least voted map out of the lottery

[prime hinge]

there's 3 options now, and nobody votes random because its pointless after voting change

[atomic veldt]

4 options including random (which nobody should vote for tbh)

[vale rose]

#1172239412814430258 message

[cyan pine]

yea mb I lost all desire to play when oki decided to bring back majority voting

[low crypt]

The last #devs-asking got over 20,000 responses. That's a serious cross-section of the player base to at least figure out what direction to go in. We can talk all day, but it isn't in the best interest of the game to lean one way or the other unless we really have the data on what people want.

I think we can all agree that whether our favorite voting system is chosen or not, the bigger priority is choosing something that won't alienate a majority of an already small pool of players

[hazy steeple]

I think roulette with the top 3 choices would probably make everyone happy tbh

Removing voting i think would cause servers to empty out more, but that's probably not an issue for official servers. So you could probably just remove voting on official servers for maps lol.

I still like my idea of combining game mode voting and map voting into one vote. So you'd vote for waki on rush or lonovo on dom with the last option being a refresh.

I think that would be the most satisfying when combined with majority voting

While the separate voting we've got now would work best with roulette for only the top 3 results

I think reverting the voting is certainly a choice that was made. I don't think it was done with as much consideration as probably should've been done.

Pretty much all the complaining has returned exactly like I and many others said it would

I think the biggest issue currently is the game is pretty stale gameplay wise atm for those who've played a ton. And adding new game modes won't fundamentally change that. Majority voting returning has simply accelerated people realizing the stagnation imo

The tldr of my thoughts is that majority voting keeps people playing the same things more often meaning they'll get tired of the game even quicker. This isn't majority voting's fault, but it's accelerated the affect for a lot of people (including myself).

I know now when I boot up BBR and queue into quickplay for official servers that I'll probably end up only playing conquest, inf conq, and dom. Or at least that's my perception currently.

CTF and other modes that change up the game more drastically need some love and attention so they can potentially get voted more often so peeps don't get bored as quick

Tldr: voting being majority isn't killing the game. It's probably the lack of variety within the game modes.

[zealous ermine]

Yeah.

[prime hinge]

nah, there is variety. but its not picked.

and btw the post about how bad current voting is was more popular than the post about the new gamemode announced same day

[hazy steeple]

The variety isn't picked a lot because it's just not that good lol. CTF, Frontline, Rush, The Cash run mode, all are different but have massive glaring flaws that can make them frustrating or delegate them as side shows.

So they they don't get picked ever (minus rush since it's only available in one spot, and it's somewhat getting better as map design improves)

Gameplay wise, variety is with the guns - which is still good imo. But medic is still the objective best class, and tbh the most fun way to play atm

It looks like Frontline might be getting improved in the update channel? Or that might be the new mode, i can't tell

[brisk basin]

CTF is a interesting one for fights in honesty

[violet furnace]

Yeah I really don’t get how they are adding another new mode yet won’t fix the glaring, extremely easy to fix flaws in existing modes

Like is it that hard to make it so that when you switch sides on rush the objective locations are the same as the previous match???

[cyan pine]

apparently it is lmao

idk how adding yet another mode that people will play for maybe a week will help but oh well

[olive cipher]

oki's priorities are all out of wack

it's very sad that basically all feedback is ignored

[cyan pine]

it's very sad that the game still doesn't have an identity

[steady sigil]

Replace Wakistan with frugis

And put Wakistan to 60

[olive cipher]

sounds like someone's bad at frugis

[hazy steeple]

battlebit observer is a pretty good source of actual stats tbh

Waki at the current moment isn't too high up

Keep in mind this is the stats of EVERY server

all the servers with players

This doesn't account for how often wakistan comes up or anything like that, but thought it was interesting at least.

[hazy steeple]

Honestly if they just showed map statistics over time the site would be perfect

debate would be over asap lol

[atomic veldt]

You think we’d be willing to stop arguing so easily???

[brisk basin]

suppose a question is how many have a set rotation & such?

[past sky]

At this point I'd rather there just be a set rotation of maps and vote for game mode

[violet furnace]

Really solid analysis very interesting

[limber light]

Absolute schizo reddit post.

[tulip crag]

Not as much as you tbh

[low crypt]

I think ranked choice is mostly a UI thing. With an obvious layout it wouldn't have to take much more time than other options

[graceful vapor]

I guess I have to be the anti-Slaz here, but game is still unplayable with the changes made to voting.

Since it worked out for him to consistently spam here daily for months on end with complaints, maybe the same approach needs to be taken the other way too.

Would be nice if Mario Kart voting was added to the now multiple votes in #dev-wip

[violet furnace]

I like that some of the community servers still have the roulette voting

[waxen wagon]

another example of waki, another map, back to fucking waki

devs just want us to play waki so I'll leave a negative review

[high drift]

Oh cmon, dont be like that

[graceful vapor]

Why not? Negative reviews is the best way to show what your opinion is about the game and that also includes changes like these that were made.

I'm sure most people will revert the reviews the moment things are better. I'm not surprised people are putting in negative reviews when the map rotation is 2 maps and 1 gamemode.

[violet furnace]

Using winner takes all voting to choose whether we should have roulette voting

[scenic cedar]

Why not seriously get rid of voting and put it on a random rotation? No vote no bitching and complaining

[atomic veldt]

That’s literally just worse

Wdym no complaining

That literally just reduces player authority to 0

Even though my simulations weren’t that good, that system had by far the worst user satisfaction scoring of any of them

[graceful vapor]

I don't know about that honestly, I don't hear of many people complaining when playing Battlefield that they cannot pick the next map, the rotation just feels like a natural part of the game. The only thing I can mention is that the best time to have done no player authority map rotating would have been when they launched the game, cause now there's definitely going to be someone who complains about it.

Would be the best way to get all the maps played equally too instead of just Waki.

[atomic veldt]

Maybe if they never had it they wouldn’t know what they’d lost, so couldn’t complain and only suggest pretty much by definition

But it’s an almost objectively worse system for player satisfaction (and so retention)

[graceful vapor]

I don't think the player base knows what it wants. There's some who prefer one, some who prefer the other, and then a bunch who prefer something in the middle. There is no winning in this, that's why the fully random or rotation system without player input would at first in my opinion be taken pretty negatively, but eventually the playerbase would just forget, this place is like Reddit, give it a week to boil up about something and they'll forget like nothing had ever happened.

I'm not even sure how much I agree with if these sorts of decisions should be voted upon (I mean the Discord votes so far have been complete rubbish, Oki himself admitted that this is just a minor part of the actual community so how can that represent the opinion of everyone playing the game), this sort of stuff should be deployed on test servers instead and then experienced, then the decision should be made if this should be actually implemented or not into the rest.

[olive cipher]

unironically

map voting was the best when your vote didn't matter, because everyone who didn't vote was assigned to random automatically

[atomic veldt]

So why, of all options, pick the worst one?

There’s no “winning” in that we’ll never agree, but you’re opting to just loose.

[graceful vapor]

Okay as much as I was against Slaz and his parade of getting direct voting, let's just get to the fact that there is no worse or better option, there are opinions, and there are certain followings to each of them in this topic.

[atomic veldt]

…yes there are?

Every option must be better or worse than another

It’s virtually impossible for two to be equal

[graceful vapor]

Your opinion is that rotation for maps is bad

[atomic veldt]

Mmhm

[graceful vapor]

Mine is that it is good

We have opinions

Crazy revelation, I know

Just an example

[atomic veldt]

While that argument can be universally implied to discredit any opinion on any topic, there is quite literally no way that it can lead to better user satisfaction.