[Megapost] More gendered options for clothing, paperdolls, faces e.t.c

[cedar marten]

BEFORE YOU COMMENT: Remember to be kind, and we're all on the same team of wanting Ostranauts to be a good game! Thanks~

I'm adding this which was a previous post, as well as something featured in negative reviews and other steam posts to a new megapost because I genuinely think the idea has some merit and worth being discussed. However the last one got out of hand and divisive so we're deleting it and starting again!

[velvet wasp]

Socialite clothing! Suits and dresses and stuff. Should change how some social alterations work (people of higher class, e.g., managers, see you more favourably; while lower-class folks, e.g., shipbreakers, see you as One Of Them).

Also, while I'm thinking about clothing, maybe some mood stuff for having to wear an EVA suit all the time, to encourage switching out of it when you don't need it.

Or a mood buff for not wearing one.

Of course, that'd rely on making the mood system a bit more transparent, rather than just giving us a bunch of sliders with no idea how they interrelate.

(Less Un)Comfy Clothes

[rough rock]

A reason to not wear an EVA suit all the time, yeah; there's literally no reason to swap out stationside.

(Being slower isn't a reason; I'd just click the +time accel button.)

[velvet wasp]

You're also not that much slower.

[rough rock]

not at all AFAIK

[steel lava]

I think overalls and cargo/harness pants would be pretty universal in this kind of scenario, but for "on station" relaxation, yeah would be nice to maybe have more casual wear.

I think faces in particular, it would be nice to be able to define them a bit more since we have them onscreen all the time. I'm not talking FO or Kenshi levels of granularity, but some more options or ability to refine our look would be nice. Also......the glasses/sunglasses? I don't know if they were part of an asset pack or something, but I would be happy if you just removed the 2000 or whatever they are glasses. If you added more options, or maybe something that kinda looked like an implant by the eyes, that would be cool too.

Bodies/body shape I'm not so wound up about as everyone in my game goes into EVA as soon as possible and rarely comes out of them. And with the game perspective, things like height is purely an aesthetic thing as everyone's likely to look the same from the topdown angle. Body shape would be a nice thing, but I also recognize that it would add layers of complexity to the paperdolls for everything clothing related.

Ultimately, I am all for revamping it and giving it a makeover but it is very low on the priority list in my opinion. This is more of a "okay we're in the release phase, we've got the majority of the major and minor bugs/glitches fixed, things are for the most part working reliably, now we can polish things up that weren't core to game function"

[rough rock]

I think I'd rather see the conversation/relationship system tuned a little more first to remove the "everyone's a lover" endstate, but that's already been brought up.

More powerful social moves from certain clothes or lack of clothes? Same moveset, but for example, perhaps wearing a shirt and pants adds one up-arrow in all positive categories to Advanced moves- wearing a shirt that matches the target's interests (Breakout one for a Breakout fan) adds an additional up-arrow in all positive categories?

perhaps bite the bullet and just flat-out disallow Advanced (or all?) social moves without clothes? No one's interested in a friendly chat with that weirdo who ignored Mescaform's strict "No Suits" policy and hasn't even taken his visor off?

[rough rock]

Hmm. Now I'm thinking of a social "armor" system, where moves "lose" arrows to the point that they can be neutral or even negative, depending on how different people are from you background-wise:

-where they're from
-social class (criminal/pirate/ayo-corp/whatever)
-social status (whether they're important or not- the Fixer is important, a rando ayo-cop is not)

Every one of these that does not match is -1 to your arrows; go to talk to the Fixer as a whitebread shipbreaker from OKLG and that's a -2; he'll shut you down hard.

and a social AP system where your moves "gain" arrows depending on how much you match the target's preconceptions

-do you have clothes that match one of their Interests? Might have to scope 'em out first?
-do you have training in the etiquette that matches their social class (would stack with being of that social class)
-do you have clothes that match their expected social status?
-Are you at least an acquaintance? Get to know 'em first!

this is definitely beyond the scope of what's reasonable to add, but it might be an interesting mod idea; at the least, it'd make me care about the characters more, rather than rush down the Fixer in a dirty vaccsuit and "Shoot the Breeze" 40 times till he swoons on me

(It's not as much related to gendered options, but I'm trying to think of reasons I'd want to look at a paperdoll/face/clothes and care about the results- right now I don't give a shit if the Fixer's a gay criminal female from Venus or a Beautiful male ex-Manager from Mars; I just show up and spam the same moves for either- I don't even bother checking any of his socials except the one I want to go up.)

[prisma quest]

Also a sleeping debuff for sleeping in it

Could I also ask here to remove the ability of characters to rip their clothes to shreds automatically unless for maybe bandaging a wound
Would be better instead to have it as a player enabled action

To add to the theme, I think it would be nice to have some sort of clothes that can go over the space suits like in that one mod... Also, an accessory slot would be nice. I can see the player collecting police badges from it and selling them to Flotilla, or Fixer selling something of a similar kind - something that can work as a disguise of sorts.

In terms of gendered options, there's not much to say in terms of clothes. Maybe some luxury clothes could be gendered, like suits and dresses, but all in all most people in this world that we can meet would always prefer something that is actually fit for working on a ship.
I could imagine there being more clothing storage options like suitcases with an actually mechanical and not electric combination lock instead of a whole ahh crate...
I could imagine there being more hats, actually - it could make sense as a fashion statement, just like a T-shirt is: the head, when you're not threatened by vacuum, is not occupied by your helmet after all
But I can kinda look silly all in all...
Idk, just random thoughts of someone who didn't get enough sleep

[late thorn]

If you added more options, or maybe something that kinda looked like an implant by the eyes, that would be cool too.

This immediately made me think of Jensen's slide-in cyber lenses from the more recent Deus Ex games. 😎 Fairly recent, anyway. The modern series first came out in...in...

2011. 😲

I can feel my bones fossilizing as I type.

[outer drift]

I would like a "cloth rack", upon wich u could storage a set of clothes, and have the option to swap ur current outfit with the one on the rack by one click, this would make the "need" to swap clothes much more easy and appealing as instead of having to stores ur clothes and swap one by one wasting time and patience, u just had to store ur best set and could swap it in 5s

[late thorn]

This right here - By hook or by crook (or by mod),I would love to have some way to swap outfits easily, especially given how many clicks it takes to get to the center of a ...er ahem to swap from an EVA suit to a set of clothing that won't get you fined on KLEG, and vice versa.

I also agree with the ideas of having gendered and social-stratified clothing as an available option, as well as the notion of being penalized in terms of social & hygienic impact for wearing the same outfit/EVA for days at a time.

[stuck zenith]

Might add that I wished that the EVA suits and other spacesuits have their own colors we can choose. Those with the same colors can have corporate dress codes and color schemes, but it needs to be identifiable.

[velvet wasp]

Reflective tape on the suits for extra safety.

[pastel remnant]

All great suggestions but its missing one important one, i think i suggested it like a year ago. Can we make the clothes NOT take damage when under an EVA? I stopped putting on shirts and G-resistant spandex (i dont remember the actual name) because all it takes is a pirate with a knife for your character to vomit scrap cloth around himself while his EVA suit is barely damaged.

[stuck zenith]

Honestly, money is pretty easy to come by once you get EVA suits. It is supposed to get damaged, but I guess it should be fine to increase ita durability, decrease its efficiency, or have gas leaking out quicker than normal, or some holes, before it eventually becomes scrap clothing.

[prisma quest]

EVA isn't the thing that gets damaged it's the things under the EVA that are supposed to be protected by it logically

[pastel remnant]

Oh i think you misunderstood or my english is getting worse by the day (i lean into the latter). My problem lies with clothes underneath the EVA suit. They get destroyed in seconds while my EVA barely takes damage

[prisma quest]

Sorry for budging in for you lol

[pastel remnant]

No worries, i saw your replay but i was already half done with my answer and couldn't be bothered to stop. Writing on my phone takes too much effort to waste it

[quick fable]

I think a reason to remove the EVA suit is excellent. I would expect a big nerf to repair while in EVA that is removed when you change into non-bulky outfits. So you'd wear the suit because you have to to salvage stuff, and shed it when you're heading back restoring the junk.

Similarly though the idea of right clothing for the right environment makes sense for social interactions too, one just doesn't go to the lounge in cargo shorts, socks and sandals. Or expect to get a date either. (Sandals have to be added, surely). So big nerfs to social effects if you're wearing the wrong kit.

And also combat. Melee in a bulky eva suit? Lol, even shooting should be clumsy. But perhaps those black cop EVA are less eva and more armoured pressure suit, so much less o2 supply and high battery drain but less bulk too.

Maybe as well we can have different eva suits too, some with more pockets but even bulkier, some with loads more lights, some just rubbish at everything. Looking at you orange. And maybe all that gives the old pressure suit a little more usefulness if it doesn't have the bulky penalty.

As for pronouns, my opinion is still the same: get rid. They add nothing to the game (are they even used outside the char gen mirror?) but cause a ton of controversary and bad reviews.

Speaking of which, a recent one said True story: I once gained access to the black market on base by repeatedly flirting with an (apparently?) gay weed smoker who was also a devout Muslim, which was a little comical.

Which, AFAIK, is something he constructed in his own mind about the fixer. The pronouns aren't even needed for every character to be trans, gay, or even muslim as individual players want.

[rough rock]

It's just a little weird that every character ingame is (or comes across as) player-sexual; adding preferences specifically to NPC's might help with that.

[velvet wasp]

We should keep the pronouns.

[rough rock]

I made it a goal to hire someone for a reasonable price who was not a Lover.

I had to drop two people first, DESPITE trying to lower Intimacy every chance I had.

[velvet wasp]

It makes an excellent filter for chuds.

[rough rock]

siiigh

[velvet wasp]

Sure, it doesn't really add much to have them, but does it add more to remove them?

[rough rock]

No; I'm just tired of it being a constant discussion-point, especially because it's just cosmetic.

(hence either remove them, or my preferred option, make them matter slightly more)

[velvet wasp]

I like the second one.

[quick fable]

"Chuds" are people too. Who have money to spend on games they like. When I was taught business I was told "100 positive reviews will gain you 1 new customer, but 1 negative review will lose you 100" (or something like that). I've seen several reviews that say "ugh pronouns refunded". They add nothing, but are causing all kinds of issues all round, so removal would be the safe and best option. Especially as we don't even have 2 body types in game!

[velvet wasp]

Give them a bit of reason to exist, because then it's being inclusive with a point behind it rather than just, well. Not mattering.

.........

[rough rock]

(If anything, I'd like a second layer: "I refer to myself as an X and I am attracted to Y (choose multiple if desired)".)

[velvet wasp]

........................... there is only one sex in ostranauts and it's "scrawny spacer"

It's at least somewhat realistic!

[rough rock]

the only reason I'm favoring removal is because it's far easier than restatting everything and refactoring the conversation system

[velvet wasp]

BUT.

To be fair. The conversation system needs an enormous overhaul anyway, because my god is it weird and chunky and not fun.

[rough rock]

Yeah. I think the first step to more gendered/realistic clothing options is giving me a reason to care who the hell I'm talking to; I currently don't because all conversations have the same winstate.

[velvet wasp]

If gendered clothing is added, I would recommend doing it how Fallout 4 does it.

I.e., let anybody wear it, really.

[rough rock]

sounds reasonable; ain't no ID-locks on them clothes

oh speaking of the conversation system, it'd... no too far off topic

[velvet wasp]

Yeah, sadly.

[quick fable]

The convo system itself isn't too bad, but I think the main problem is how it's done as game actions. Perhaps it would work better if it "zoomed in" to be a more isolated mini-game until you leave convo. Combat too, perhaps.

[velvet wasp]

Gives you a bit more freedom to make a thing.

[rough rock]

I'd like to see both my and my target victim mark new Lover about to be abducted to work for $3 an hour in the vacuum of space with no off time conversation partner's stats at the same time

[slow stone]

As for pronouns, my opinion is still the same: get rid. They add nothing to the game (are they even used outside the char gen mirror?) but cause a ton of controversary and bad reviews.

They add nothing to the game
Oh but they do

(are they even used outside the char gen mirror?)
Yes.

but cause a ton of controversary and bad reviews.
Specifically for this [] take I will now strongly suggest that we remove he/him and add every single neopronoun ever coined.

Literally havent seen a single fucking drop of controversy over it ever and it has been part of the game from the beginning

[brisk falcon]

All I'd say regarding gendered options is that currently the paperdoll does have exceptionally long, rangy limbs and large hands even by the standards of many AMAB people - if it would be easier than creating multiple bodytype paperdolls and needing to create variants for all the clothing, maybe as a compromise you could androgynise the default paperdoll visuals a little more, just make them a little bit less huge. Long thin limbs do suit spaceborn people who grew up in micrograv but right now the limbs just look really big compared to the heads and it stands out a lot against the more femme facial shapes in particular.

(this isn't a complaint I think it's fine and that the game would benefit more from a lot of other things, rather than fixing something that isn't really broken - but if I were to suggest something, it's that^)

[late thorn]

There was a prior thread on the subject that was...let's just say, "less than civil." We had to nip that in the bud. Hence this one. ^_^ The main negative reactions to pronouns I've seen have mainly been in the Steam reviews, and the playtimes on them suggest that the users in question promptly refunded the game. (I'll refrain from elaborating, as that could veer into politics)

[brisk falcon]

The original image has been taken down but an indie developer recently shared a screenshot of some official Valve documentation describing management of right wing backlash on the Steam reviews and forums as 'a battle you won't win', and as an unsolveable problem.

Which is untrue, and Steam as a platform chooses to be "apolitical" and let these things fester.

.. but it is a realistic description of the situation as it stands.

Anyway, not chatting in here, just backing up your point re: the generation of false controversy by awful people on Steam.

[late thorn]

I mod at an (unrelated) message board where we firmly disallow debates, religion, and politics. We kept this fair by creating a separate website/board where such discussions are explicitly encouraged. It works quite well, tho both boards are much less frequented than they once were v_v

[slow stone]

"We should remove a staple element of the source/inspiration material for the game that has been part of its worldbuilding from day one so hysterical lunatics with the emotional capacity of toddlers wont be offended and will buy it"

The He/Him removal was a joke, by the way. The neopronouns? Half cocked here, considering how well Hatred did in its days with the specific flavor the big moral panic had then, it would probably cause the game to surface to the mainstream with all the press and outcry

[slow stone]

considering that none of the traditional gendered facial features are locked to one gender I just see it as micrograv effects on genetic coding and protein stuff and from there hormonal balance, there is no data on this since kids arent allowed to go into space as of yet. Also I actually like that it allows cis/trans masc/femme binary/nonbinary representation and that to deviate from the registered GID/pronouns on chargen. It is valid as fuck and I have only seen Cyberpunk 2020 do it otherwise, which was a shit game imo but good for at least that part

just add clothes of all sorts, and maybe make the body even more androgynous IDK

its a purely visual and non-crit thing, I could wait for past 1.0

in the automotive tech field we all wear jumpsuits or other forms of work clothes anyway

[steel lava]

in a world of one size fits all EVA suits, it would be more of a survival thing where the people that can fit in said EVA suits would survive the longest, creating a more generic and nondescript body type. Not too tall, not too short, not too muscular(low g would help with that), not too busty/curvy...an eventual lineage of more androgynous people overall

[slow stone]

and as a legally registered and licensed real life human female, I would NOT wear a skirt or dress in micrograv

like holy shit, your only options would be body tight tube dresses

[steel lava]

C'mon.....who doesn't enjoy a permanent Marilyn Monroe situation

[slow stone]

me and any other woman or feminine presenting individual who has gone clubbing, and have reasons for no longer going clubbing

[steel lava]

Sorry, I forgot my /s on that one

[slow stone]

I understood the humor!

[rough rock]

Comments like these are part of the problem; it's culture-war bullshit that's just there to stir up controversy and agitate and appear to be factually incorrect/in bad faith.

They add nothing to the game, and they aren't used outside the chargen mirror as anything other than a label. This is, AFAIK, the current state of the game.

rather than pretending that's not the case, I'd personally like to see a second level of abstraction added (?preferences?) so it does something meaningful ingame and I don't acquire lovers from literally everyone

-though in my case that wouldn't help. (I don't particularly care who's a Lover, just that I don't get like 17 of them through casual interactions that are all fine with it. Perhaps a "poly/mono" tag?)

[rough rock]

this is still relevant and is one of the issues

[slow stone]

false. Pronouns and gender shows up in several instances of the game

[rough rock]

sigh

Are you here to work towards a solution in good faith, or are you just here to MUH PRONOUNS?

they show up, everyone has them- but they don't affect any ingame choices AFAIK

[slow stone]

Play the game more, I guess? I am not going to talk with you further because you used that term "culture war"

[late thorn]

Settle down, please. Maybe both take five.

[rough rock]

Okay bye.

Back to the point, I see the Fixer, I seduce the Fixer, regardless of their gender or my gender or any preferences. Which is... lacking in a few aspects that could be improved. This is why I want the secondary "preferences" stat added to pronouns so everyone's less... horny all the time.

well, not less horny, but less player-sexual; with "preferences", there'd be some people you just flat-out couldn't seduce. If one of them happens to be the Fixer, well, that's why there's the alternate Intimidate route to get Black Market access?

basically I want everyone to have "I am an X who prefers Y's", with X being a single pronoun of the player's choice and Y being as wide a group of pronouns as the player wants- including "none" as an option.
and if technically feasible, "I am an X who prefers only one/multiple Y's at a time" please god anything to stop EVERYONE I HIRE BECOMING MY LOVER

[quick fable]

Alice needs some mod attention for these comments. We're trying a reasonable discussion and suddenly we have bad faith arguments saying "made up right wing terminology" and more.

[rough rock]

It's fine. We don't need to worry about it.

People get attached to these things.

[late thorn]

We're keeping an eye on this thread already and discussing. Politics is not allowed on the board. Yeah, that comment was gonna get deleted either way. Sorry, alice.

[rough rock]

i just want less lovers please

@late thorn
notices the heart react
INSULTS YOU TO MAKE INTIMACY GO DOWN

[slow stone]

Then I guess I'll leave again because you people are too weak to take a stance on a literal crime against humanity that is in progress

I dont get why none of these "WAA PRONOUNS OFFENSIVE REMOVE PLZ MUH CULTURE WAR" fuckwits havent gotten warned, because their suggestions are overtly political

[next geyser]

If I ran my mouth like this I would expect a ban

[slow stone]

The term "culture war" is literally overtly political, this is arguing in false balance and enabling democidal freaks like this guy to continue shilling for his politics

[late thorn]

Warnings and such are not shown publicly.

[next geyser]

👍

[late thorn]

Temporarily locked

[glacial gust]

sigh

[bold relic]

https://botdev.macinsight.net/public/302515943945273347/log/103

[glacial gust]

For prosperity: Users are being dealt with. Just to have it in the open that the locking isn't all we're gonna do.

[gloomy magnet]

Hi Folks,

We're going to leave this thread on cooldown for a while, as we feel things really went off the rails here.

In light of that, a few reminders of our expectations of you all:

1. No disparaging remarks about others. (Period.)
2. No politics, unless you can discuss them maturely and calmly.

If you think someone is violating those (or any) server rules, you can ping <@&302542758483066890> or use /report if it's something another user is doing. Do not attempt to retaliate, as breaking the rules is breaking the rules, no matter who started it.

If you feel the need to say something, you can remind the person of the rules, and "that kind of comment is not okay here."

A few more notes specifically about pronouns:
We will not be removing pronouns from the game. While it's true they have no mechanical effect in-game (for now), the same can be said for your facial appearance, skin color, hair color, name, etc. It is a role-playing option, there for your enjoyment.

If someone out there is bothered by the existence of these options, they are free to play other games.

If we get negative reviews for this decision, so be it. Capitulating to negative reviews just invites more negative reviews. (And frankly, if someone is deterred from buying Ostranauts due to negative reviews about pronouns, well...we both dodged a bullet then, didn't we?)

Be respectful to each other. Report (then ignore) trolls and bad actors. And let's focus on making a space captain story-generation machine we can all enjoy for years to come.

[late thorn]

Note that only mods/admins can see when you use /report. Feel free to use this when you feel you should, as it is the fastest way to bring attention to any issue.

[glacial gust]

Unlocking again, behave.
No sleep, hours of travel and a work event that's gonna last the week make for a very moody Mac.

[icy rock]

I like high heels

[velvet wasp]

EVA suit but with boob window

For when you need some really cursed bullshit.

[glacial gust]

sigh

Could the EVA suit be classed as a variant of a shiny close-fitting bodysuit?

[velvet wasp]

Look, I'm just a simple little gay.

[icy rock]

Yus
need

[stark haven]

I like the idea of having more clothing in general. I don't really care if it's gendered or not. I was pretty excited for the compression leggings, maybe a compression top is in order? Or a full pilot suit?

[icy rock]

I want an eva with a backpack slot
so I can carry more stuff

[velvet wasp]

Oooooh, full pilot suit, that's an excellent idea.

[icy rock]

that too

good to have incase of air supply running out

[burnt dagger]

Why not makes me think of Kaylee from Firefly who is a genius ship engineer that is happy as a child in a candy store when she thinks of being taken out on a fancy date in Disney princess dress.

[fossil tapir]

I'm trying my hand at Venus racing and a pilot suit would be great

But I think the type of customization that we need the most is changing the color of the different hair styles.

[icy rock]

~>
need dress
so can have nice date

[fossil tapir]

Would be cool to wear a trenchcoat and a cowboy hat over the EVA suit

[brisk falcon]

Honestly why not go fully Death Stranding with an environment suit that makes you slow but is absolutely covered in high capacity harness points hooks and pouches?

Decorated EVA and exoclothing would suit the anarchic cultural rebirth for spacers after the kessler syndrome kicked off.

I feel gender-specific self-expression is a low priority when any self-expression remains this limited, which in turn is a low priority when we can't even identify between two tote bags or backpacks or crates to express variation for basic ergonomic/logistical purposes.

It makes me think of the line about 't-shirts being one of the only forms of fashionable expression' being perhaps misguided - I imagine every old salvager would have unique customisations and a 'look', and that through that gendered touches and coded indications of political beliefs, sexuality and veterancy of historic events would be expressed.

This would be more interesting as a means of exploring gender expression in this setting than just adding old fashioned clothes that accentuate secondary sexual characteristics or whatever.

Obviously some roleplay specific high end clothing like skirts and heels from high cost luxury boutiques for those who've 'made it' would be a nice late game detail.

[burnt dagger]

Would definitely be useful and has already been suggested:
https://discord.com/channels/302515943945273347/1343655945196015658
Honestly I just want to see something like this in the game:

[brisk falcon]

Yeah, at the moment I have to use willpower to not just carry endless cargo pants in endless totes in three simultaneous crates

But back on topic, I agree that hairstyles and colours are a much better path to gendered self expression for now - I don't know what the larger game holds but as a scavenger around k-leg there just doesn't seem to be any room in people's lives or economies for fashionable clothing to be accessible or particularly desired.

I guess an angle to consider is that on Earth today gendered clothing is in a sense essentially an... Abstraction and implication of what lies beneath in a political climate of centuries across many cultures that prohibit nudity.

In a poverty stricken space based industrial setting those barriers would fade very quickly with mixed use bathrooms. Casual nudity in hab areas would likely be a common thing, especially since this seems to be such a polyamorous setting it visibly upsets some fans.

When acquaintances in the local industry who've worked together and lived together have seen everything everyone else has got, teasing revelation or accentuating particular secondary sexual characteristics is just a lot less relevant.

TL;DR
Tits out and balls swinging, that is the spacer way.

[burnt dagger]

That would only happen for groups of people who know and trust each other e.g. on salvaging ship with a fixed crew that are like family. In general with the lawless that is depicted in the game and implied, on stations the exact opposite would happen as people would be extra guarded, cautious and very vary of anyone they don't know and trust. After all in such a lawless and chaotic society the predators thrive.

[brisk falcon]

I didn't really get that impression of the atmosphere of the game. K-leg feels more like an drilling stationor corporate dockyard in its current depiction ingame, with a small group of regulars and a general sense that people know each other. Which could be a failure of the game to properly indicate its intended scale, but there are no security features and there's no dialogue within stations that suggested any anticipation of violence to me - only outside, where drifters with salvage licenses might force dock.

My interpretation might be a little soft but yours sounds a lot more hostile than anything I've seen in the region I'm talking about.

[icy rock]

That's what I was thinking abt
but couldn't put into words!

especially if we can upgrade the eva suit to have like

• more pouches
• a slot for putting in a toolbox because that's really important
• endless backpack storage for ratting potential

[burnt dagger]

Well maybe I got the wrong impression but several youtuber I watched told once you are out in the black so to speak nobody cares who you murder to make a profit and at least the hardship and exploitation the character creation implies, white everyone growing up with immune-system deficiencies feeble muscles and bone density issues (which are all explicitly treatable) and how little the PC seems to be able to save in a year. Well all that implies a harsh life in poverty with very high wealth inequality that does not tend to create the nicest people.

[brisk falcon]

Poverty, absolutely. And absolutely plenty of far-from-nice people, but the question that remains is the degree to which there's a sense of law - standards - enforcement - peer judgement.

What we can see is a remarkably high presence of enforcers both on-station and in patrol craft maintaining a close watch on salvage licensing, including random boarding and searching. We also see the high value the game places upon investigating suspicious deaths, as represented in the gigs system currently. We know that at least locally in the starting region the people seem to value life, judge you for violence, and seek justice.

Random acts of violence on K-Leg also result in you rapidly getting laid out by an enforcer if you're not careful. Corporate don't like chaos, and want their workers working, not fighting or being too scared to work.

This topic is very relevant to the idea of gender expression, because it interconnects with the factors that influence that on Earth today - the reasons people dress to impress/express, and the reasons people (largely women and queer people) fear to do so, without going into specifics that may risk inspiring unhelpful contributions again.

What we can see is an even representation of men and women on these stations - the fact both will openly flirt without discrimination or hesitation with someone they like - and the fact they're all wearing the same essentially unisex clothing from the company store, heavily leaning toward generic corporate branding advertising space industries or major consumer products.

What we can gather from that is, loosely speaking, one of two things; either that the game is, content-wise, very incomplete and that these behaviours and styles of dress are not an accurate indication of their working culture or preferences - or that while unfinished Ostranauts is currently indicating a Spacer culture that isn't as patriarchal or generally gendered as our contemporary lives on Earth.

If the latter is the case to any degree, I'd use it to support my suggestion that old-Earth gendered clothing styles are of a low priority or out of fashion, and that part of that is because the conservative traditions of Earth haven't endured out there; women wearing tight or revealing clothing to accentuate physical form isn't incentivised in a culture that doesn't obsess over covering up in the first place. Maybe in Ostranauts, the nipple is free

[icy rock]

they really just got a monologue just for that joke

though I do like the contrast betwen earth and spacer culture

[burnt dagger]

Well if there is one thing that is certain throughout all of human history people of wealth will always want to distinguish themselves from the unwashed masses. For large parts of Europe's history things went so far that the nobility spoke french instead of the language of the people they ruled over. Today you have special brands and expensive watches and whatnot.
So if what you are saying is true for the common people and with high poverty that kind of makes sense nothing is cheaper than mass produced simple coveralls. So odds are the wealth (and those who want to look like it even more so) will go all out with fancy dresses and expensive suits so you can immediately see they are important people.

[brisk falcon]

Aye - if there are gendered clothing options as opposed to gendered signifiers/minor customisations to work gear, those gendered clothing options should mostly be higher-cost stuff unavailable at the trade terminals of a small waystation.

[icy rock]

let me have a pencil dress that costs $60.000 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

[rough rock]

Due to the way the game's relationship system is currently set up, polyamory with everyone you interact with for more than 15 minutes is the end-state of any involved conversation- it can feel a bit screwy sometimes that there's no way to, for example, hire someone and have them stay socially happy but not become your Lover and the Lover of anyone else on the crew.

Then again, this isn't exclusive to relationships- I've had someone become my "friend". A pirate. Who was attacking me. That I shot at till he surrendered and then walked him outside; there were no positive interactions period, and yet his relationship status went up. The social system ingame could use some work.

[burnt dagger]

This pirate was probably a masochist and believer in defeat means kinky sex. 😉

[brisk falcon]

I wouldn't know, everyone insults me and my character remains eternally desperate for love. No one has ever shown even the slightest interest except three flirts all followed by insults over FIFTY HOURS of real time gameplay.

[rough rock]

unfortunately, he asphyxiated before he could fit full Lover.

[fossil tapir]

so the rich dress in purple

[brisk falcon]

Oh, but yes, every time I shoot a pirate they become my friend. I have been told in this server that 'bullets are NOT A LOVE LANGUAGE' but lived experience disagrees

[rough rock]

You gotta talk with 'em- if you put your character on AUTO with off-time in OKLG, you'll start rackin' em up.

[brisk falcon]

My character is far too shy and they keep stealing my snacks fuck those guys. Anyway, gendered additions and tweaks, to stay on topic.

[rough rock]

it's not a casual thing (except for bullets), but after about 15 minutes or so, the bar will be a pot of repressed polyamory only needing a spark to... boil over 😋

[rough rock]

IMO, meaningless without a rework to make genders (in this specific game, the game by Blue Bottle, the poison for Kuzco spacer game where gender has no effect outside the initial starting selection) matter, even slightly.

but that's harder to do than adding, I dunno, a micrograv dress?

[burnt dagger]

Micro-gravity dress is best dress😍 :
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ea/e6/29/eae62949132ef348271b43cfcd5d2a2e.jpg

[rough rock]

nullgrav dress

g/ dress

[brisk falcon]

[slow stone]

I still dont leave my home without leather padded gloves, tough leather clothes and would still wear my NBC mask if it wasnt for local bans on masking your face without a "reasonable purpose" (i.e you need protection for the work you are currently performing, like welding or working with hazardous material spills, or you are medically prescribed the use of a gas mask or rebreather due to extreme allergy)

The general lawlessness, sporadic violence and chaos of lockdown several years go really did a number on me. You are probably right here, if you have access to something to anonymize and protect yourselff, you are probably going to hide under it as a cultural standard.

[slow stone]

I however strongly agree with this and what Jakkar writes in general, though. Violence and crime in space is different, I only got an attempted mugger once on a station and that was on VORB and it seems like the general etiquette is that you dont fire guns or have destructive brawls aboard space stations. Maybe the pirates owuld still do this but have been ass wooped so many times they dont even dare coming to even flotilla, IDK, it seems like the Ogadan Pirata Fraternity is universally hated by everyone

[brisk falcon]

We have a lot of hellscape scifi, and in the spirit of understanding the factors that drive gender norms in a culture and would inform choices like clothing and other aesthetic self-expression, it'd be nice to know more about Ostranaut's place on the grimdark spectrum and attitudes toward gender within spacer culture/s.

I'm not inclined to think the "lawless and chaotic society" is quite true, but I also suspect the current state of the game is a little misleadingly chill due to unfinished AI behaviours.

Without that it's hard to say, for one thing, how interested the average spaceborn lower-class worker would be in clothes we'd recognise as gendered from an early 21st, heavily 20th century inspired perspective.

Secondly how comfortable or safe people would feel in this setting wearing recognisably gendered (i.e. accentuating or revealing, in the case of feminine designs that make up the vast majority of what we consider 'gendered' clothing) items, and in what context it would feel most appropriate (regions, and in terms of socio-economic class - like miniskirts on someone hanging out at the docks mean something different to a thigh-split dress in a classy restaurant).

[slow stone]

I mean Ostranauts is noir, so it is a well roasted black coffee more than a latte, but not entirely black sludge from barely water instant espresso like WH40K

Its the same universe as NEO-Scavenger, the Ablation Cascade happened in 2059 (I think that was retconned to just a kessler syndrome thing)

and NEO Scavenger is less grimdark and more "realdark" if that is a thing, it is like if Andrei Tarkovsky and Stanley Kubrick co-directed directed a movie about Katrinaland with a memphis rap soundtrack, it is set in Michigan, Detroit outskirts and you got guys in 00s gangster fashion robbing you, while fighting cryptids and trying not to get on the bad side with native americans, and there are cybernetics and stuff, you got a few thing like energy rifles and cybernetics but they are super rare and nearly impossible to get working in the environment you try ti persist in. Neo scav takes place in 2069, 10 years before your character signs the deal on their used spacecraft which is usually from the year 2057. So NEO Scav takes place 9 years after Xinhua grounds all flights in response to the cascade

very late techno-feudal/early techno-barbarian type feel

[brisk falcon]

I did play it a little around seven years ago, but remember only backpacks and fear.

[slow stone]

and that is part of it! Both games, and the common setting uses a sort of obscurantism in its theming, but yeah Earth has basically been a hypercapitalist high tech shithole since the 00s

[slow stone]

and I think it was the year 2019 when Phillip Kindred goes into cryostatis, which means already in 2019 they had a lot of high tech stuff, and it was a private company that did it, whatever has caused the societal collapse must have happened within the past 30 years of, so we got spoopy stuff, conflict and the collapse of the rule of law already after 2019, so take present day real life with a bit more 00s fashion, extrapolate it 20 years into the future and make energy rifles and fusion torches something we got today, and you got the general cultural zeitgeist

[steel lava]

Overall, from an in game lore perspective, I would equate NEO "The Road" adjacent, and to a degree Ostranauts a blend of "Alien" and "The Road". In universes like that, the majority of people are going to be focused on keeping their head down and belly full. On the stations, it's....they're like holy ground. Whether KLEG or the flotilla, it's a bastion of civilization and a place to catch your breath(for a fee). Out in the void, that's where the danger is, but the stations are a lighthouse in the dark.

To the topic of gendered options, I'm not against them for our own personal aesthetics and preferences. But in a situation where resupply from Earth is not happening, and all production is at a greater cost both direct or indirectly. Pragmatism, uniformity, and ability to make the most efficient use of material. The rather wide selection we have already seems to be near luxurious in my opinion. I mean look at most astronauts currently, primarily all jumpsuits and a small selection of the same basic apparel. It would be a bit more varied, but again based on scarcity I would think that more unique clothing options would be exceedingly rare.

As for body types/shapes, I would suspect that environment would play a bigger role in that. Maybe allowing us to select where we are from(Venus, Mars, Ganymed, etc) would be kind of a "race" class similar to DnD or Skyrim. Martians having more gravity than most would be a hardier breed, Venutians would have say increased lung capacity so longer time in pressure suits or slower to black out in a depressurization event, etc. That would give our lineage more meaning, whether selected or rolled at random.

[icy rock]

give us an eva suit that makes you look like a girl

no bonuses
just makes me really euphoric for me self insert wearing something nice

[rough rock]

Ostranauts isn't that far into the future. ~50 years is a while but it's not impossibly far for cultural drift; I'd expect most of the same styles groundside (especially in a recession/apocalypse where new fashion trends are less of a priority). In orbit, no clue- but everyone in space originally came from Earth or was born to Earther parents- there's not enough time for a "Spacer counterculture" or regional identities to really form. Everywhere's still a "colony" culturally.

Maybe in another 50 years the shadow of Earth will fade and the rest of the system will start developing more uniquely.

[rough rock]

now I'm thinking about a old-fashioned hoop-skirt dress with a "sealed" bottom

because what better way to show you're important than to take up tons of hab space

[burnt dagger]

So the combination of a hoop-skirt with a hobble skirt? Anyone wearing that will probably maneuver with all the grace of a overloaded oceangoing super-freighter. 😁

[rough rock]

exactly

[rough rock]

Some historical cultures would show importance by impractical clothing requiring helpers to assist in order to allow the wearer to function normally (one of the last remnants of that might be like, wedding gowns and trains?).

I don't think the conditions in spacefuture are actually right for a resurgence of that trope... but "offworld royalty" being carried through OKLG in a dolled-up 3m-wide survival bubble so they don't have to breathe the same air as the peasants is an amusing thought. Maybe in another hundred years.

[slow stone]

Venus would be the ones most likely to have an earther similar physique because the gravity is almost identical to that on Earth. Also the ablation cascade began in sept/oct 59 and xinhua grounds their surface to orbit flights in may 60, game takes place in 79, youngest earthborn would be 20 years if the space elevators and regulations means infants are allowed on transports. If there is a lower age limit, say 15/16 years old that places them in their 30s, so plenty of earther clothes that could have been brought along here. The timeline is alternate, too, keep that in mind.

Mars would basically be a hiccup away from belter physicue, 0.3g is closer to moon gravity than earth/venus gravity

[rough rock]

yeah but it's only been ~50 years or so: there are people with offworld parents and some grandparents, but pretty much everyone remembers Earth or has a parent who does- there hasn't been time for much cultural divergence. I'd expect some but not a ton.

[steel lava]

You're losing the forest for the trees. I was making up hypothetical examples as to how we could use the in-game universe/locations to provide some differentiation and uniqueness to characters in a lore driven way, as well as provide for a bit of an immersive way to allow for some options to introduce some creativity/unique accoutrement without completely deviating from the current aesthetic. However it works as far as what adaptations people in different locations, the idea is that it would offer us the ability to be more unique within the realm of the game that is more immersively lore driven.

As far as the clothes go, yes. There would be lots of clothes. Regular, functional, useful clothes like what we see. Flashy, unique, less functional clothing would be more for the wealthy starbound that could afford the stowage for it. So it would be rare and expensive, not something that would be widespread. That's what I was trying to get at. Yes have it. But don't make it so common and so outrageous that everyone is running around in a gimp suit or banana costume(no I'm not being literal I'm being intentionally facetious in the extreme for the point). Poor shipbreakers would be wearing whatever basic wear is commonly available.

[slow stone]

what do you mean the future wont have banana gimp suits for all 😱

[stark haven]

Don't tell anyone, but you can actually get your EVA suit in banana as well. I currently use a Banana EVA suit

[steel lava]

There's always mods I suppose

[fossil tapir]

for some reason, I just imagined a T-rex themed EVA suit

[steel lava]

I thought about that, but I kinda feel the Trex suit has been overplayed in the last decade.

[fossil tapir]

it could be like the plushie, but big

[slow stone]

it was a jonk, I agree with most of what you write

[steel lava]

I meant it as a joke too....although....

[icy rock]

skin 👏 tight 👏 E 👏 V 👏 A suit

[velvet wasp]

Mechanical pressure is an entirely valid idea...

[rough rock]

skintight p-suit (you are going to instantly suffocate)

[burnt dagger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_counterpressure_suit believe it or not skintight EVA suit is a thing in real live. At least in the experimental stage. It does seem to be not that easy to actually implement, though.

[rough rock]

I am aware of the concept.

Note how I specified p-suit, not EVA suit, andhow the guy in the pic has an air hose so he doesn’t die from suffocation in the helmet.

[burnt dagger]

Well without an air hose it would work less well then our current pressure suit because of the reduced air volume. So then you would indeed suffocate pretty fast. Well unless you are trained in holding your breath world record for free-diving is 11 minutes and 35 seconds of holding your breath.

[rough rock]

does your character ingame have Skill: Freediving?

[burnt dagger]

nope just free-dying 😉

though it would be a crazy useful skill for the early game till you get your hand on an EVA suit but then again the usefulness would be very fleeting

[rough rock]

yeah

(my comment on the "skintight P-suit" was a joke at the impractical nature of such an item without an air supply. Then again, the P-suit is a joke.)

[icy rock]

a rather dull joke seeing as I have to kill a man for his drip
(Stabbed a guy for an EVA Helmet)

[idle zealot]

I think taking an approach of adding more options (rather than removing, or limiting) is definitely a good one, especially for a game like this! I'm sure I've not found all the different clothing items yet even peeking through vendor wanted lists, but more is always going to be more fun for character customising.

On the topic of fashionable clothes - maybe they could give some small social benefits, but be less effective in zero-g? Jumpsuits etc are easy to secure, but a skirt, a long coat, even a tuxedo would end up floating around and getting in the way when working and moving. They'd likely have way less options in terms of storage, too - though I'd probably get made fun of less by my partner for being in cargo pants 24/7... But I could see them maybe giving minor etiquette bonuses, like I think someone suggested earlier on. Basically, clothes for shore leave or for social engagements - but not for dossing around the ship repairing the hull.

Also, in terms of expression and customisation of existing clothes - I'm not sure how feasible or easy to implement it would be, but maybe a system of patches and customisations for things like pressure & EVA suits, and jumpsuits? A slot or two that can hold a cloth patch/spray/dye job that lets you signal organisation affiliation, personal expression, etc etc. There's plenty of real estate on the full body outfits, but again I'm not sure how it'd work in terms of game assets and implementation!

[rough rock]

Thank you for implementing some of this.