showdown-teambuilding

[gentle pine]

And has more hp

[quiet salmon]

outclassed by arceus-doublade

[gentle pine]

Fair point

E-speed, SD, and what else?

[quiet salmon]

none of those

specthief wow recover sr/defog

[gentle pine]

I don’t know what wow or sr are

[quiet salmon]

will o wisp

[lyric pewter]

will o wisp and stealth rock

[gentle pine]

Ah

Would you be doing def or atk nature?

I assume hp and defense invest?

I assume defense to just be the biggest possible physical wall.

624def

And you ideally wanna just set up rocks, go out, and swap in on a physical setup sweeper?

Spec thief then burn?

[muted oar]

I'm just blown away you'd ask that. Normal/Ghost is one of the best types in the game, and Chansey/Aegislash is unambiguously the bulkiest fusion

[gentle pine]

I think you might be able to get something with more effective bulk tbh.

Like something with fluffy

Like Chansey/Houndstone

Then you still have a pretty good damage option.

?

[quiet salmon]

its also ridiculously weak to imposter and horribly passive

[quiet salmon]

when are u ever using such a weak last respects

[gentle pine]

It was just the best damage attack option. Realistically, you’re using curse.

Or nightshade if you don’t wanna damage yourself

But nightshade loses a LOT of value against targets with a lot of HP or recovery options.

[quiet salmon]

just outstall recovery

ur a wall u dont want to use curse

[lyric pewter]

i just realized my iron valiant/blacephalon was using quark drive instead of beast boost lmao

https://pokepast.es/604290e4f4a84f7f

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/437e8f29e1b2fea4

just wanted a critic on the full thing because I'm reasonably proud of it

I expect there to be some dumb stuff there, especially the pyukumuku because I didnt have time to test it, but whatever

it's like the antithesis of my traditional playstyle but it is what it is i suppose

also I find this fascinating as an idea just because it fucks over so much stuff other than roar/whirlwind

burn is still crippling though

lum berry might be a neat idea with it

also technically it can still hax a roar/whirlwinder (flinch lol)

[sterile glacier]

How does it kill uh anything that resists steel?

[honest umbra]

more setup

[honest umbra]

the point is to just get in, setup a bunch and then spam ironhead till victory

and mold breaker is there so I dont have to deal with stuff like unaware

[vernal vale]

yea i mean the point is the steel resist needs to deal with it

but yea you are right this at +6 still doesn't 1 shot a steel resist

but it doesn't make it bad

but yea it's not like it's insane or anything

just a good way to abuse someone that doesn't have a specfic counter

[lyric pewter]

i can't tell if it's getting better or worse because now my team falls over if an ice type breathes near them

[quiet salmon]

why ep over flamethrower
what does the spread do for gliscor
doom desire over giga drain is wack

[quiet salmon]

in reply to this

[quiet salmon]

i ran 6 ice weak mons against an ice type and still won so sounds like a skill issue

[lyric pewter]

did they forget to click the "you die now" button or what

[quiet salmon]

it was rillaboom glastrier so it was slow

[lyric pewter]

what about when you encounter the frosmoth nidoking that wants to gangnam style on you

[lyric pewter]

which one of these would be the best choice for the final slot

[quiet salmon]

long since retired the team for now

[lyric pewter]

i would hope so because 6 ice weak mons sounds like a recipe for blizzaster

[lyric pewter]

i decided on a rocker

i might want to run a different pokemon for the body because i dont need to be that fast and i need a bit more bulk

[quiet salmon]

quite fake

[lyric pewter]

sometimes the best solution was right there all along

https://pokepast.es/83dc870d4077b289

this team is starting to come together imo

[vernal vale]

what's the point of sash trick?

also chople is weird without x4

but not bad

[lyric pewter]

stealing leftovers from a bulky offense mon or something after they break your sash

[vernal vale]

i think herb for the draco nasty plot is better

[lyric pewter]

thats a solid idea i didnt think of but chople is there because that pokemon's only weakness is fighting

i might try white herb instead

[vernal vale]

ok sounds interesting

never seen something like it

if you believe in the idea than sure

[lyric pewter]

it's pretty effective in practice

can steal a bunch of important items from the opponent

like an AV or a choice item or something

[vernal vale]

yea i get that but if you take that you are kinda just hurting yourself

[lyric pewter]

if you know the opponent is scarf you can click trick turn one and steal it and then set webs after you're faster

[vernal vale]

but yea i get it it's like a suicide lead

but you don't die you just disrupt

and become worse

[lyric pewter]

it does a great job of dying

lol

[vernal vale]

yea i meant it in the wasy you are becoming useless for disruption

[lyric pewter]

if i'm on 1% i'm already useless except for switching in on status moves if there are no hazards on the field

[vernal vale]

yea im not saying it's bad

sounds nice

just expanded on it a bit

[lyric pewter]

i appreciate the assistance

[vernal vale]

np, the herb on the 1 weakness sounds good because if they are fighting you either switch or one shot them anyway

and if it's coverage idt you are getting one shot or anything

and the only other thing i have is that probably fusing the garchomp with something to get rid of x4 ice is good but idk you are living on the edge with ice anyway

[lyric pewter]

i need a ground type for dark/poisons and i couldn't find a better pair for the role

there might be something i'll be able to think of tomorrow

[vernal vale]

i mean you would want garchomp as body anyway no? so you take away dragon

cause he has better stats as body

[lyric pewter]

i would make it a water/ground type probably for the ice neutrality and fire resist

since i have latios and ogerpon for grass switchins

[vernal vale]

yea sounds good

[lyric pewter]

but idk what the head would be

[vernal vale]

there are some nice ones like milotic suicune araquanid dondozo even i guess

depens on what you want from it

[lyric pewter]

i want it to be at least 102 speed if possible

[vernal vale]

tentacruel is 101

holy

unlucky

[lyric pewter]

keldeo/garchomp may not be the worst pick

[vernal vale]

seems like the only options are keldeo and starmie than i think

or like really offensive mons like greninja i guess

[vernal vale]

yea seems like a pretty good one

[vernal vale]

yea seems good

[lyric pewter]

idk if running ep or eq would be better

probably eq for the bp difference

[vernal vale]

yea bp diffrence is bigger im pretty sure

[lyric pewter]

may drop spikes for water stab

[vernal vale]

i remember checking physical water types on like hydro pump vs aqua tail and the diffrence was pretty massive

[vernal vale]

you could also make it ep and scald than

does sound pretty nice

[lyric pewter]

i was thinking mixed yeah

oh wait thats not mixed

you said ep not eq

[vernal vale]

yea i think if you do mixed it's worse a bit

cause nature

[lyric pewter]

i was thinking hydro pump + eq with a -def

ep + scald is probably better

[vernal vale]

yea i think ep scald sounds pretty nice

and just -atk

[pallid flicker]

Are we permitted to paste a team here for feedback?

[vernal vale]

yep

that's the point kinda

[pallid flicker]

Oh okay, thank you

[vernal vale]

oh i thought you meant like a pokepaste

but sure

why did you delete

i was about to copy it to see

[pallid flicker]

My bad, I was going to send a PNG of it

Blislash (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Fusion: Aegislash
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature

• Soft-Boiled
• Sacred Sword
• King's Shield
• Shadow Ball

Volcapede (Volcarona) @ Quick Claw
Ability: Speed Boost
Fusion: Scolipede
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

• Quiver Dance
• Baton Pass
• Sludge Bomb
• Protect

Azumaziken (Azumarill) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Huge Power
Fusion: Blaziken
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature

• Brick Break
• Waterfall
• Protect
• Bulk Up

Toxys (Toxapex) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Fusion: Deoxys
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature

• Baneful Bunker
• Zen Headbutt
• Poison Jab
• Toxic Spikes

Snorcor (Snorlax) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Thick Fat
Fusion: Gliscor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature

• Counter
• Sky Attack
• Roost
• Tailwind

Alaking (Alakazam) @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Magic Guard
Fusion: Slaking
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

• Psychic
• Psychic Terrain
• Body Slam
• Disable

[vernal vale]

that also works

but no reason to delete

it's fine

just send both

oh you playing nat ag

[vernal vale]

is baton passing stats not banned in ag?

well the blissey aegislash looks pretty good

is this doubles?

[pallid flicker]

I was able to use it in AG, it is singles

[vernal vale]

sure i just don't know i don't play nat ag

but i can say that the protect is useless in singles

on the azumarill one

cause you don't have speed boost or anything

just take a coverage move or something

or aqua jet

sky attack is a bad attack in general cause it's a 2 turn attack

and poison heal toxic orb tends to be very good on gliscor

i don't really see the alaking utilizing disable psychic terrain hybrid moveset

it's not bulky enough for the full hp full speed i think

just invest in one attacking stat

toxys seems pretty good mabye you can go rocks instead of zen headbutt and make it bulkier

and volcapede shouldn't need quick claw when it's speed boost

[pallid flicker]

I thought using Quick Claw would almost guarantee going first if my opponent has a mon of greater speed.

[vernal vale]

that's what protect is for, when you send it out and click protect it will be 1.5 speed

which will outspeed like 95% of things

also quick claw is rng based, 20% to work

[quiet salmon]

1.5 speed what

its +4 priority

[vernal vale]

no i meant you proc speed boost

[quiet salmon]

uh huh

[vernal vale]

so the mon gets 1.5 speed

[quiet salmon]

shouldve said +1 spe

[vernal vale]

yea mb

just tried to be more general cause overseer seems like a newer player

but yea you right it just didn't make sense

[vernal vale]

don't you have anything to say about the team? idk i don't play nat and not ag so i probably missed some stuff

[quiet salmon]

all the sets are bad p much

[vernal vale]

yea i mean it seems like he just wanted to play with those pokemon

but just maximizing the pokemon he is using

i guess

[pallid flicker]

Would Aerial Ace be the best to replace Sky Attack? My other option is Wing Attack or Acrobatics (Got the Toxic Orb so It won't do double damage)

[quiet salmon]

no

it doesnt use flying moves

you dont touch shed at all rn

[zenith hedge]

Trying to build a team for Gen 7, but when I got to my Blaziken Mamoswine fusion, it won’t let me select speed boost?

[honest umbra]

banned

[hexed trout]

where should i put the evs?

[quiet salmon]

why use this when it has no recovery

[gusty burrow]

Pretty sure Toxapex gives all of those moves (that goodra doesn't have) and gives regen

[sly thicket]

P sure the combo is for the offensive stat

Unless goodra gives a good offensive stat already that I’m not aware of

[lyric pewter]

i'm cooking up some voltturn for when i'm free from psysurge jail

[gentle pine]

304 attack is getting nowhere on anything with no boosts

[lyric pewter]

it hurts my soul when people run two scarf mons

what are you hoping to achieve

besides ruining my life

[sand quiver]

how do people start team building for this mode

theres so many things to go for like

[sly thicket]

Start at a combo you think is funny/good and build around that one mon

[sand quiver]

i just don't know where to start with calcs

like what thresholds am i looking for

i have CB dragonite-alolan golem

[sterile glacier]

As long as you have something that can deal with boomburst spam and something that can deal with extreme killers you're set as far as the "meta" goes

The calcs don't matter because you could be seeing literally anything

There's practically a literal million potential sets, and you'll never be able to prepare for everything

So pick something that seems strong or funny and build around it

And make sure you can deal with boomburst abuse and extreme killer sets

[sly thicket]

I actually haven’t seen anything about es killers going around what do people normally use as a baseline for taking care of that since I’m sure most es abusers use pixilate so having a ghost type isn’t a guaranteed check to that

[sterile glacier]

Extreme Killers are in my experience more likely to be paired with a normal type like Guts Ursaring or Adaptability Porygon Z, with Pixilate being paired with Noivern for the scariest boomburst spammer possible

Some people will instead just not have STAB on it and instead get something with big attack and swords dance, but those usually aren't too hard to deal with

So basically you need something that can wall a Dragonite with big priority fairy or normal STAB while hitting it back for big damage

Garchomp and Ferrothorn fusions are great for that, because Rough Skin or Iron Barbs with Rocky Helmet on a physically defensive powerhouse eats extreme killers alive.

Personally, I've been using a Garchomp/Jirachi, but there's a lot of different ways to take it

Most extreme killers are flying types, so Garchomp's access to Stone Edge is a substantial plus.

[sly thicket]

Are there any good physical ice moves that gen 7 can use at all? Kinda what I end up using for flying types since it can hit a lot more than flying but could definitely see ice punch just not cutting it for damage even if it’s super effective

[sterile glacier]

You can get Icicle Crash on Cloyster and Mamoswine fusions (Weavile doesn’t get it for some reason) but Icicle Crash isn’t very good compared to Ice Beam

Or Freeze Dry or Frost Breath

Being a physical ice type just kinda sucks in IF

Well, I guess you could also get skill link icicle spear off Cloyster

You’ve really got much better options for rock or electric moves anyway to be honest

[muted oar]

Weavile only gets it via egg moves in gen 7 with pokemon that don't exist in game

Like beartic

But is 75 to 85 that big of a deal?

[graceful imp]

you also have to factor in STAB, weaknesses, and the 30% chance to invalidate your opponents' turn if you move before them

[muted oar]

Why would ice punch be STAB but not icicle crash

You're not making any sense

[graceful imp]

no as in they are both stab
so the differences in damage get multiplied afterwards

so going from 75 to 85 is a decent deal

[muted oar]

The percentage difference persists

[graceful imp]

percentage persists, but the raw damage increases
and usually it's raw damage that's necessary to break past walls

[hexed trout]

are we not able to send iages?

sorry it kept showing that they wouldn t send

should i run draco or dragon tail?

dont get me wrong gooapex is better statwise then googuss but steel poison is a hard type to pass on

quad resisting Bug, Fairy, Grass. immune to poison. resist Normal, Flying, Rock, Steel, Ice & Dragon

only wek to fire and quad to ground

while steeal water is like this

[muted oar]

Quad weak to ground is awful

Super common typing

[quiet salmon]

why would you run either

steel poison just stacks resistances so its not useful compared to steel water

[lunar terrace]

Anyone run into any fun trick room setters / abusers for OU?

[gusty burrow]

Steel Poison is for when you want your Sylvern counter to get flamethrowered

[honest umbra]

thoughts

cant hit flying + fire resists but idrc

[quiet salmon]

why is it so slow

what is roar doing here

[honest umbra]

was kinda electing to ignore speed because I didnt see a need for it

roar is there because I have trouble with setup

and I went "yeah sure"

[quiet salmon]

this looks like the worst antisetup mon

[honest umbra]

also couldn't think of a good 4th move because the first 3 did what I needed

[quiet salmon]

speed actually outspeeds things

ice beam hits dragons

tbolt hits waters

[honest umbra]

fair enough

not like I'd stay in on waters though

sounds utterly goofy beyond making an incoming read

[quiet salmon]

you hit them on the switch

or you click it against slow waters

[honest umbra]

ig

[muted oar]

Slow, 4x weak to water, roar is random af for an offensive mon, gets outsped and murdered by everything, fire blast is inaccurate

[honest umbra]

i wouldnt say everything

[muted oar]

Hits hard tho

[honest umbra]

yeah

kinda the point

I wanted it bulkier but it served the purpose I needed

and didnt instantly die to stealth like bug fire

and doesnt lose instantly to electric like water flying

tldr, had a hard to fill role and it fit decently

[quiet salmon]

what

you didnt even say what the role was

[upper granite]

Yea

[honest umbra]

I mean I was also just looking into it as an individual mon

[upper granite]

If you said what role we could help you

[honest umbra]

fair enough

[quiet salmon]

its a decent special wallbreaker

by itself

not with roar

[honest umbra]

currently have it as thunderbolt instead of roar

was considering checking out bug fire options for similiar purposes

however im already using yanmega so it's not even worth bothering

[quiet salmon]

i still dont understand what this is for

[honest umbra]

wanted to deal with fighting, ice, bug and steel

initially was gonna do something with flying water, but my team already was weak to electric

[pseudo heron]

Water Ghost does that 😭

[pseudo heron]

Also Lanturn Skarm

Water Flying Volt Absorb

It’s probably as stho

[honest umbra]

a 100% passive mon

[quiet salmon]

how does this deal w fighting or ice

[honest umbra]

I compromised because it was kind of a tall order to handle 5 types perfectly

[pseudo heron]

Me when water ghost

[honest umbra]

and because I didnt want to be weak to rocks

[quiet salmon]

if u need to handle 5 types in 1 mon you probably built wrong

[honest umbra]

me when electric

[pseudo heron]

Why is your team so weak to electric 😭

[honest umbra]

flying types

using both hymega and snorcor was something of an error

[pseudo heron]

How weak to electric is it already is the question

[upper granite]

Lantern dnite with tail glow

[pseudo heron]

I ain’t ran Hymega and Snorcor on the same team

[quiet salmon]

thats fake af

[honest umbra]

unaware:

it's not god awful

[upper granite]

?

[honest umbra]

I just prefer immediate power

[pseudo heron]

Can you even build Hymega and Snorcor together it stacks rocks weakness it’s annoying ahhh

[quiet salmon]

has what 80 spa

terrible

[honest umbra]

a regen rapid spin

and a wish supporter

[pseudo heron]

Not doin allat it’s so much easier to make Snorcor + 5 fat team for stall

And Hymega can go on teams from Ho to Bo to Balance and Fat

[honest umbra]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#&player=inept&replay=archelosaurian-ineptgamer-1702692635708

older version of the team but most of the concept is there

half the team has had major alteration or removal though

[pseudo heron]

That team doesn’t look reliable at all

[honest umbra]

it wasnt

dusclops was dead weight especially

[pseudo heron]

Hymega and Snorcor also kinda just have a lot of anti synergy

[honest umbra]

ferrothorn didnt have enough offense to justify life orb

[pseudo heron]

Both of your wincons getting forced out by the same types is not it

[honest umbra]

yeah that's fair

I've just never really had a better idea for what to do because they're both stellar mons by most standards

I've considered making a sort of snorcor lite with breloom

but that's deranged

[pseudo heron]

Eh they do better apart from each other

[honest umbra]

i mean im open to replacing hymega

I've more often won just on being tanky and clicking offense every so often

[pseudo heron]

This is what Snorcor teams usually tend to look like https://pokepast.es/dbc5958f7814798d

[honest umbra]

fat shit

yeah

[pseudo heron]

Snorcor stall during the tour was probably the most consistent playstyle

[honest umbra]

I like snorcor because I can keep it around to do funny shit

and still fight because of how stupid facade is

[pseudo heron]

Snorcor is just a great breaker it’s super tanky

Snorcor speedties are sometimes big also ngl

In a stall v stall mu snorcor speedtie can make sure who is winning or losing

I think some have ran some curse snorcor but those are easier to phase

[honest umbra]

I do think if I found an alternative to hymega I could probably run the bug fire i wanna

or water flying

still havent ironed that out

[pseudo heron]

You don’t really need a hymega alternative ngl

No mons do the same things that hymega do

[honest umbra]

i meant just for my team as a whole

because hymega doesnt fit amazingly

[pseudo heron]

Idk if you need to pair it with anything that’s offensive ngl

[honest umbra]

cant really switch in on a whole lot nor can it heal itself consistently

nor does it deal massive damage without setup

[pseudo heron]

Hymega needs to be built around by itself ngl

If you build for it it becomes optimal

[honest umbra]

yeah

[pseudo heron]

Because if you get like 2 qd it cooks up

Idk if this is really the best I have used it like twice but It won me the inaugural so this is what I built for hymega https://pokepast.es/295847e2ba34adea

But this is a taunt hymega is a huge stall cteam

[honest umbra]

wait you're train

sick

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/ac6555ebb908c7d1

took me ages but I've roughly settled on this team

[quiet salmon]

incomprehensible

[pseudo heron]

Bruh how did you still end up cooking this up no way

[honest umbra]

explain the issues you see

calling it bad with no actual criticism is annoying

[rapid glade]

Why sd on a utility mon with mono fighting for coverage
(Zapreloom)

[quiet salmon]

like 4 ground weaks
idk what torterra is doing
idk what zapdos is doing

[honest umbra]

torterra has stupid good stab

wood hammer plus head smash with rock head

zapdos is just a snorcor lite but breloom has awkward typing so I was struggling

[quiet salmon]

how is it snorcor

[honest umbra]

poison heal

again

awkward typing

[quiet salmon]

its defined by its bulk

its 140 bp stab

[honest umbra]

it's just worse snorcor

with a stealth rock resist

[quiet salmon]

astronomically

[honest umbra]

indeed

also defog support

considering scrapping that for better stats

i did change out the moltres but I havent sorted out what I really want so it's a rather mediocre option as of rn

currently a magnezone/latias which is super backwards statwise but levitate does me nice when it comes to what I want it to do

[pseudo heron]

2 of the mons are unviable it’s trying to be a fat team but it’s not really fat enough the defensive core is also very weird

[honest umbra]

that's still vague

why is the defensive core weird

which 2 mons

what is "fat enough" what threshold do you think I need to pass

etc

[pseudo heron]

It’s weird because a good physical attacker would just steamroll

[pseudo heron]

It should be obvious witch two mons 😭

Tort Aggron and ZapLoom

[honest umbra]

I can understand zaploom

i will die on tort aggron's hill though

[pseudo heron]

🗿

[honest umbra]

man rock grass has good coverage

[quiet salmon]

defog support on the ground weak mon

[pseudo heron]

Sure it’s just not a good mon tho 🗿

[honest umbra]

fair enough

[honest umbra]

that's

still vague holy hell

[pseudo heron]

It’s not vague your dying on the hill for a mon with a half decent typing that’s slow as hell

And stats aren’t amazing

Like decent attack decent defense????

[honest umbra]

it's picked because of a 120 bp/150 bp stab combo that checks a lot

[pseudo heron]

Sure you get that and wood hammer mon is probably just gonna get overwhelmed by strong breakers like the rest of team

Poryvern especially

[honest umbra]

eh

kind of

really depends on the moveset and item

[pseudo heron]

Draco Boomburst Flamethrower if it’s specs it’s over

Nasty plot is also over

[honest umbra]

nasty plot would be a pain

[pseudo heron]

You have to get every prediction right just to beat specs

[honest umbra]

yeah

[pseudo heron]

Obviously your Sylvern mu is fine because you team has a lot of things that resist that mon

Entei Mu depends on the Entei most likely

[honest umbra]

im just looking at things rn

trying to see what can and cant be solved

i mean obv the breloom is still rough

but it's hard to find stuff like works

especially because 2 interesting type combos are just wholely locked by the ability

i dont think either are good by merit of ground weakness though

[pseudo heron]

What are you even trying to build?

[honest umbra]

shitty snorcor

breloom is just bad defensively

[pseudo heron]

What playstyle are even trying to build is the question

[honest umbra]

whatever i've found pleasant

[pseudo heron]

[honest umbra]

never put a good word to it

[pseudo heron]

You aren’t gonna get anywhere with that

[honest umbra]

so that's an issue

[pseudo heron]

🗿

Just build what you want and use what mons you want if you think your stuff is good just run it

It doesn’t seem like your trying to really optimize anything so

[honest umbra]

I mean I wouldnt be here if I wasnt trying to optimize

normally i just test until it gives me a problem and then just go "how fix" and see how it goes

[pseudo heron]

How to fix your team is to change it up entirely so just run what you wanna run because your probably ain’t gonna do that

I mean Technically your team does do well against other snorcor teams kinda 🤷

[honest umbra]

kind of hard to test if somethings decent on ladder

[pseudo heron]

It’s probably gonna be decent on ladder most ladder teams aren’t good and your team probably has good mu’s vs some good teams that are on ladder

[lyric pewter]

which of these two options is superior

[sterile glacier]

rock/normal is just such garbage typing

And like what is Ursaluna even bringing to the table here? It looks like you could run the exact same set with just a Regirock or Garganacl

[gentle pine]

If you’re doing that in the first place, then Regi

Stats seem to be higher

But

Garg has an extremely good ability and move you’re mot taking advantage of with that set.

Well, you have the move

But not utilizing its ability is weird to me

Also

If you’re running sturdy, I guess what’s the purpose of HP invest?

It just feels like you might gain the opportunity to outspeed some tanks with speed invest instead.

Or do defense invest and use body press

Rock fuses pretty well defensively with either poison or bug, if you just wanna reduce the amount of weaknesses.

Something like this, maybe?

[sterile glacier]

Potentially? I'm not sure fitting Body Press on that set is the best way to go about adding offensive presence though. Does it hit that hard when it's non-STAB and isn't backed up by Iron Defense?

[gentle pine]

It’s a chip tank. The body press is a bonus.

And with eviolite, it’s still really high defense

You can’t be status’d

[sterile glacier]

Does the Eviolite boost apply to Body Press?

[gentle pine]

And you have recovery

Of course

It’s 1.5 defensive stats

And body press is defense

[sterile glacier]

That's not what Bulbapedia says

[gentle pine]

Hmmm

Unfortunate then

In which case, you could really be a bitch and throw on roost lol

Imagine the salt

When they count 8 recovers

Then boom

Roost

It gets defog

Realistically, that’s the play

Also gets substitute

And toxic

So good choices

(inb4 anaconja complains about everything I’ve just said)

I’d personally go for toxic.

[keen dawn]

real

[gentle pine]

I do think that’s actually a fairly solid set.

But he’s gonna say that there aren’t enough resists or something

Or say I should use a different move over salt cure or toxic

Or just say it’s bad in general

[keen dawn]

its their secret ploy

get top of the ladder by telling everyone their good teambuilding ideas are terrible

[gentle pine]

Fax

[sterile glacier]

I mean I don't think it's a bad set

And Salt Cure is busted, especially in a meta so full of steel types

I'd probably balance the defenses more, and run defog or toxic if it was me

But it's got potential

[lyric pewter]

this is the most important thing actually i should have min defensive stats because it's a suicide lead

get rocks up, get to sturdy, and eliminate something with stab explosion

there's nothing else to invest in though lmao i might as well just have only 252 evs

or just invest in speed to outspeed other slowmons idk

i think they're basically identically useful because their attack stats are the same and they're gonna do the exact same thing in 99.9% of battles

the garg is probably better because you can get matched against something that can't deal with rock types and get off free salt cures

[lyric pewter]

accidentally came up with something kinda cool

i came up with another demon featuring my favorite pokemon but i'm gonna keep that one under wraps for now

[graceful imp]

Why facade? It's immune to two statuses and can't be poisoned on entry by tspikes

[red spear]

But what if it gets soaked and twaved

[graceful imp]

oh yeah my bad, of course

[lyric pewter]

shallow movepool, the other best option is stomping tantrum for coverage

all of that fusion's good moves are fire and electric type

there's also close combat but that means that mon can't touch dragon/ghost fusions and it'd only be grabbing super effective hits on rock and dark types

[quiet salmon]

why is it eelektross

[graceful imp]

...
ok first off facade is normal type, it can't touch dragon/ghost fusions with that anyways, if you wanted to do that you'd need Crunch or Outrage
Speaking of which, it has Outrage, your choice of CC or Superpower, aqua tail / liquidation, zen headbutt, throat chop / crunch / knockoff

[quiet salmon]

knock is ok the rest of those are bad (it doesnt get cc)

[lyric pewter]

fire/electric with levitate and usable physical stats for v-create

[quiet salmon]

why do you need levitate electric/fire

[quiet salmon]

My Bad.

[lyric pewter]

type coverage plus immunity for my team

knock is probably a good choice but i wasnt sure about running it on scarf

[quiet salmon]

is this an offense team for you to need levitate to cover weakness on an offensive mon

it just doesnt seem good

[graceful imp]

was mainly pointing out how saying it has a "shallow movepool" is pretty far from the truth

[lyric pewter]

yes it is

[quiet salmon]

a lot of ground mons or ground move users just hit you anyway

[graceful imp]

yeah between rock moves, mold breaker EQs, thousand arrows, etc

and electric isn't exactly the type you want STAB on when facing ground types

and if you did, going a special attacking route and fusing with rotom-wash for stronger water coverage is better

although v-create spam seems to be the main attraction
honestly i'd put it on a more offensive, faster threat

no need to worry about defense if you don't give them a chance to hit you

[lyric pewter]

it's on a webs team to make up for being a slow scarfer

[quiet salmon]

uh huh

scarf on webs

[lyric pewter]

bro's never heard of boots

i thought you were supposed to be good

[quiet salmon]

if ur trying to deal with boots then the fact that webs helps you be a slow scarfer doesnt happen in the first place

[graceful imp]

bro
that's why you have mons that can eliminate anti-webs threats
knock-off spam to prevent switches
spinblockers, anti-defog mons, etc

webs teams work because you make the fast things slow, not the other way around

[lyric pewter]

i already have a ground immunity on my team so i probably should replace it

it was just a fun set to begin with

i'll find a home for it someday

[quiet salmon]

id much sooner use rillatini as a pseudo ground resistance if i really needed it

or fuse entei with a flying

[lyric pewter]

i'm looking for a water absorb mon that i can run as a physical choiced mon

[quiet salmon]

choice is not a v good idea on webs bc ho is all about flexibility

moment you get a bad switch is moment you lose momentum

[lyric pewter]

just get every turn right 4head

you're probably right

[quiet salmon]

uh huh

[lyric pewter]

if i use an ogerpon fusion i can't run it choiced anyway

idk what i'd fuse it with

[quiet salmon]

sounds p bad

id probably find a 4x water resist

id probably ban water bubble first though

[graceful imp]

@lyric pewter do you already have a dragon type on the team

sorry for ping anaconja forgot to check who sent that message

[lyric pewter]

yes

[graceful imp]

you could be funny and go with breloom / urshifu-rapid

get that grass/water with technician surging strikes

[lyric pewter]

that's a neat idea honestly

i might also be a menace and just slap an arashifu on my team before water bubble's ban

sniper surging strikes also sounds funny

[lyric pewter]

this may not be good, but it is funny

[honest umbra]

real

natdex is goofy

[nocturne eagle]

fair stats btw

500 hp! we love natdex ag!

[lyric pewter]

i think the top one is better

[dreamy lion]

Very good reasons why not to play Nat dex

[honest umbra]

am I the only person bewildered because there's literally no contrary mons available besides shuckle

[graceful imp]

Play NatDex and you get a few more, none of them OU material

Either that or run rayquaza shuckle in IF Dex AG

[honest umbra]

was just looking for something funny but it just didnt happen

[devout cairn]

I saw a Rayquaza/Serperior with Contrary, Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, V-Create, and presumably Dragon Ascent

[quiet salmon]

0 recovery

[lyric pewter]

roost over flash cannon would probably help

[quiet salmon]

walled by dark

[lyric pewter]

ya mama

probably drop acid armor then

just spam the pink button until your opponent explodes

[quiet salmon]

more like click cm and get switched in on by a fire

or click cm and get switched on by a dark

[lyric pewter]

it's meant to be a bulky wincon after you clean up opposing threats

kinda like what hatterene does

[quiet salmon]

the difference is hatterene has some form of recovery

has stab on draining kiss/stored power

can tera

can annoy things with nuzzle

[honest umbra]

what's a good fusion for magnezone for the purposes of removing steels

[lofty scroll]

For IF dex or Nat dex?

If IFdex, maybe something along the lines like this. Also gets Aura Sphere as a different option to hit Steel with.

[quiet salmon]

bad

if ur not ohkoing the steel its leaving

[lofty scroll]

Even with Magnet Pull?

[quiet salmon]

it clicks uturn

[sand quiver]

am i cooking

[gusty burrow]

The pokemon is fairly common along with Gengar/Porygon Z, moveset wise the 2 coverage moves are fairly random

[sand quiver]

psychic is there because i'm stupid

energy ball is there because i'm used to bulky waters

[gusty burrow]

I would run Flamethrower and something else, maybe dark pulse

Energy Ball works too

As would trick/Switcheroo (if it learns it)

[sand quiver]

trick is fun

i was gonna say "but" but i'll take any out to the walls i've seen

[gusty burrow]

Shadow Ball/Tri Attack/Flamethrower/#

[sand quiver]

yeah

psychic was literally my brain not working bc its 1:30 am

"i need something to hit darks"
"Oh psychic"

[quiet salmon]

shadow ball/tri attack does about the same dmg as energy ball though and thats only if its a 2x water and not the common water/steels

[gusty burrow]

Tbf most waters are either water/Steel or water/ground

[quiet salmon]

id unironically run stabs trick plot if i used this

[sand quiver]

oh wait yeah the entire point of adaptability is that...

i may need sleep but i wanna team build

[gusty burrow]

I'd run trick last, but flame is good for steels

[sand quiver]

are walls that common that you're prolly tricking every game?

[quiet salmon]

yes

[gusty burrow]

Yes

[sand quiver]

understood

[quiet salmon]

the meta is slanted defensive

[gusty burrow]

Regenerator is on every team, often more than once

[sand quiver]

get regenerator

[gusty burrow]

I'm personally a fan of Registeel/Toxapex, it's a water/Steel with a great support moveset, incredible bulk and regenerator

[sand quiver]

that sounds like a wall and a half

[gusty burrow]

I run AV and it takes thunderbolt from Porygon Z fusions easily

There's also Porygon Z/Noivern for funny Porygon Z fusions

[sand quiver]

i am trying to force my favorite mons onto this team in some fasion

[gusty burrow]

What are your favourite mons?

[sand quiver]

torterra, which i'm not that masochistic to make him work

mainly trying to find good garchomp/porygon-z fuses

[gusty burrow]

Both are really good

Garchomp gets Dragon Dance, it can be fused with so many things

[sand quiver]

garchomp gets dance?

i'm out here trying to find a mon with dance to fuse it with

[gusty burrow]

Garchomp/Scizor (maybe it's the reverse, idk) is pretty good, dragon/Steel with great bulk, recovery, SD and technician bullet punch

[sand quiver]

i was actively about to ask who's a good physical steel

[gusty burrow]

Klingklang is also good, shift gear is great but it relies on the other fusion for good attacking moves

We should make a simple viability rankings

[sand quiver]

as a person trying to get into it, it would be very appreciated, but the community is great at helping

part of me wants to make abomination mons and shread low ladder with them(garchomp/ferrothorn)

actually on a serious note, how bad are dragon/dark or dragon/figthing as typings

nvm the ability is banned

is sticky web good?

[honest umbra]

sorta

a lot of the better teams are bulky archetypes

[honest umbra]

so it can kinda end up just being irrelevant in some cases

[sand quiver]

noted

[honest umbra]

depends though

[sand quiver]

if i have a mon that can really take advantage of it?

[honest umbra]

if you have some crazy strong stuff like noivern/sylveon it might be worth it

but then you could just get worn down by bulk and hazards

it's complicated

[sand quiver]

i get ya

[honest umbra]

hope that at least is good as a reference

[sand quiver]

i'm not completely singles-illeterate

yeah i get you

[honest umbra]

this meta is too complicated to be literate

oh yeah

some stuff of note

be able to kill a snorcor

[sand quiver]

snorlax-????

gliscor

[honest umbra]

gliscor

[sand quiver]

oh god

[honest umbra]

yeah

[sand quiver]

poison heal?

[honest umbra]

be able to tank noivern/porygon-z or noivern/sylveon

yes

or just outspeed naturally and oneshot

[sand quiver]

[honest umbra]

(both are dragons so an ice or fairy will work)

[sand quiver]

sylveon/dragonite

[honest umbra]

that too

[sand quiver]

is something i ahve

[honest umbra]

or porygon/dragonite

[sand quiver]

yeah

pixilate espeed seems like my main wincon i think?

[honest umbra]

those are also worth remembering

[honest umbra]

not a super good wincon tbh

too many steels

[sand quiver]

so make a magnet puller

[honest umbra]

gliscor only gets away with being a wincon because facade has 140 bp

[sand quiver]

oh god its stab

[honest umbra]

potentially

uh

might be a problem tbh

especially due to stuff like klingklang shift gear

you may run the risk of just getting setup on if you dont respect it

not the greatest example but something like this can and will sweep a team with ease

something I was thinking about the logistics of

which is why it's so weird lookin

(i hate unaware and hax is the perfect mon for the job)

[sand quiver]

oo

[honest umbra]

alternatively

attack invest

tldr

fear everything

you will run into it

personally prefer this one (idk why its attack IV are bad but ehh)

has a healing move and better bulk

[lofty scroll]

The client auto sets the ivs to 0 unless you have physical attacking moves to counter foul play.

[digital kayak]

hear me out (this has probably been done before)

stakataka but with stab body press and much better typing

and 123 hp

[digital kayak]

You get serene grace iron head with this most importantly

[honest umbra]

you were not paying attention huh

I chose jirachi because it had a measure of bulk and recovery

so it could set up ddance and break unaware

[digital kayak]

Yeah but serene grace iron head is the real draw in my opinion

Of using rachi

[honest umbra]

i dont like putting my fate in rng

[digital kayak]

Lol

[honest umbra]

it doesnt feel like a win

it just feels like bullshit

the fact you are drawn to that makes me dislike like you on a personal level

[digital kayak]

I play the game competitively idk what to tell you if you don't want to win that way that's fine but I value sets that do that

[honest umbra]

also if I was doing stupid shit like that I'd be running speed anyways

[digital kayak]

Also damn guess you dislike me now I'll never recover from this

[honest umbra]

more so just making my stance clear

it's not even that serene grace is bad or whatever

stuff like this is stellar

[quiet salmon]

too much setup for tr

[gentle pine]

I'd say you just don't really need iron defense tbh.

Not while you have beast boost

[digital kayak]

Yeah I could see that, though your coverage isn't necessarily going to be powerful

If either stab is neutral that's probably better than coverage

[quiet salmon]

body press isnt a strong stab anyway without boosts so just use like perrserker with tough claws/steely spirit

[gentle pine]

I mean, 496 defense

It's gonna hit pretty damn hard

But yeah

Can't use 2 setups

And he has black belt

so that's 20% extra, yeah?

[quiet salmon]

not when the premier physical wall is water ghost

[gentle pine]

Then he'd obviously swap

[quiet salmon]

so every time you have this guy in you get forced out by it

thats catastrophic for a momentum-based archetype in tr

[gusty burrow]

I haven't seen any Trick Room teams whatsoever, I'm presuming it's not very good due to regen spam?

[quiet salmon]

the abusers kinda suck

[gentle pine]

also, trick room is just way better in doubles

In doubles, it would be strong to do a prankster trick room on something with this thing out that could then just drop trick room for a better move

[quiet salmon]

why would you prank tr

gonna outspeed some roars

[gentle pine]

In doubles

[quiet salmon]

i dont see how it gets better in doubles

[gentle pine]

You could literally turn 1 tr then that thing goes immediately after

[quiet salmon]

you forgot tr has -7 priority

with prankster it has -6 priority

as i said youd outspeed some roars but i doubt those are relevant

[gentle pine]

didn't know tr was -7

[quiet salmon]

youve never noticed that tr always goes last

[gentle pine]

I don't run trick room often

for doubles, I'm more likely to do weather

also

the tr pokemon I've used in the past have all been slow regardless

sorry for not having 15k hours on showdown

[digital kayak]

Tr is a lot better in doubles yeah, mostly because you can abuse it with 2 pokemon at once

It was more common in gen 6 when you had stuff like mega camerupt

Also amoonguss commits war crimes in doubles especially with trick room

[gusty burrow]

You could have priority TR in gen8 doubles with dynamax, you use max guard from TR and then use prankster copycat, very funny

[snow pike]

Same as always, too few turns
But there's also a ton of broken priority in if which makes it even less relevant

[chilly steppe]

hear me out 2

maybe adamant with 252 atk instead

[gentle pine]

I don’t really see what that’s gonna accomplish with only 289 attack, ngl

[graceful imp]

yeah drop the spdef investment for attack investment

[snow pike]

drop the hp investment tbh

it has enough hp, I think special defense is gonna make a bigger difference

however it will still get completely destroyed by fairy moves

[muted oar]

RIP to Espeed Jirentei

[quiet salmon]

that wasnt good though

[snow pike]

i prefer jirachi arcanine

jk i wont do this again

rate my team

[quiet salmon]

pretty bottom of the barrel rain abusers

[snow pike]

noieon is somehow the worst Pokémon most of the time

I thought it'd do way more damage than it actually does, and it has no time to setup

I replaced electrify with substitute because it's just a waste of a move slot

[muted oar]

Jolteon gets nasty plot

[quiet salmon]

no it doesnt

[quiet salmon]

its work up thats why its doing nothing

haze doesnt make sense on toed plus it wants max speed

snorcor infinitely better off with its standard set

swift swim mons who arent water really lack power compared to those who are

[snow pike]

Water hits a suprising amount of common snorcor switchins pretty hard

[quiet salmon]

what also hits hard is just clicking setup and facade/koff bc its so fat

[snow pike]

I added clefcune because i needed a water/fairy but idk if it's good on rain

[quiet salmon]

it doesnt seem good bc it gives up momentum

[snow pike]

yea

tbf grass is very uncommon offensively here so most of the time electric types are the "water counters"

Maybe a water/ground type with Feraligatr/something?

Idk if thousand waves is affected by sheer force, if so maybe something with that

[quiet salmon]

ive heard of that but then it requires you to click ddance to be v threatening

twaves has no secondary so its not affected

[snow pike]

Spirit shackle is affected

And it does the same

Just looked it up: spirit shackle is affected by sheer force, thousand waves (which does the same) is not

weird

[quiet salmon]

yeah

its convenient for ndbh bc then cloak cant block waves trap effect

[snow pike]

what should i replace clefcune and noieon with

[quiet salmon]

pivot and better electric and or flying respectively

[snow pike]

As for pivot do you mean something bulky with volt or turn or just something that can switch in, deal damage and switch out again

I put ice beam over haze on toed

I kinda want something against setup, ik it's rain offense but if has lots of prio setup which makes it still kinda important

bibarel?

[median marlin]

these arent teams these are jus mons i made and id like any pointers

[quiet salmon]

maybe the latter

something like thundyt

[quiet salmon]

vest with kings shield is confusing

[median marlin]

yuh :(

accident

[honest umbra]

What’re the best fairy types

thinking of creating a dragmag situation with switcheroo ring target

[lyric pewter]

in IF or ND?

[honest umbra]

if

[lyric pewter]

sorry idk

[honest umbra]

i mean

im aware of a few

just think that having a second opinion would be nice

[honest umbra]

obv not perfect but i think the idea is conveyed

drag mag with a ring target/anchor shot to lock a fairy in and eliminate the problem

didnt know what to do with the other 2 moves slots so magnelure has random stuff

im not stupid enough to think this is a good idea but it's kinda funny

[median marlin]

christmas, just a week away

[quiet salmon]

what makes a fairy want to switch into a wailord klefki

and the wow haze magnelure is heinous

[honest umbra]

that's fair enough

and the haze was just me not knowing what to do

would something like this work

[quiet salmon]

probably not

[honest umbra]

do you have any suggestions then

[quiet salmon]

its just a mediocre idea imo

[honest umbra]

I mean

yeah

it's kinda because I think it sounds entertaining to me

[quiet salmon]

ur doing a whole lot of work for only a theoretical payoff

this must be regidrago levels of dragon

otherwise its not worth it

even then something like final gambiting fairies is a better idea for that

thats what ive done before

[honest umbra]

oh

that's actually a really good idea

sick

still need to fix the magnelure though

[quiet salmon]

specs

[honest umbra]

right

what should I put in over will-o and haze though

[quiet salmon]

trick volt switch or something

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 206-246 (55.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO epic fail

[honest umbra]

do you actually use a slowking built like that

[quiet salmon]

yeah

[honest umbra]

huh

neat

do you have an IF dex set for the final gambit thing

[quiet salmon]

no

bc i havent used it in if dex

[lyric pewter]

run this on an eterrain team with screens

sacred sword over night slash allows you to obliterate dark types on the switch

could also run this in psychic terrain teams because of its priority weakness

[stiff saddle]

what changes should i make

[quiet salmon]

why is it defog tusk

[stiff saddle]

idk what it runs

[quiet salmon]

spin

then change berry to vest

dragonite wants roost

blace needs orb to do real dmg

copper just looks p bad

i dont really see the vision of helmet ape

with v weak atks

aegi needs hp investment to be bulky and uturn from lando

but also idt this set is good bc no recovery

[stiff saddle]

i was originaly going to use rage fist before i realized it was banned

havent changed it yet

so keep this as the core

[quiet salmon]

you should change aegislash

dragonite still wants roost

id probably invest in bulk for tusk

[stiff saddle]

what would be a good water mon

team gets destroyed by fire types

[quiet salmon]

alomomola doublade

lanturn toxapex

dondozo + anything with bulk and recovery

[stiff saddle]

Prob that or dondotran

[quiet salmon]

is that heatran

[stiff saddle]

Ye

[quiet salmon]

no recovery

[stiff saddle]

Flash fire

[quiet salmon]

but you can just be a water and not a steel to have a fire resist

[stiff saddle]

Fair

Is it lanturn toxapex or swap

[quiet salmon]

that

[stiff saddle]

Also is ogerora good

[quiet salmon]

i dont see why youd use that

[stiff saddle]

Does a decent bit to alolamola and just walls water mons

[quiet salmon]

itd do that without water absorb

assuming its water absorb

i dont think it actually does anything to alomomola

[stiff saddle]

Max def max Hp alolamola takes 51.9-61.4%

[quiet salmon]

did you make it doublade

and give it eviolite

[stiff saddle]

Ye

Nvm

Forgot eviolite

38.9-45.8%

So barely outdamages regenerator

[quiet salmon]

thats if it stays or switches in in the first place

which it wouldnt

[stiff saddle]

True

Singles has way more switching than I’m used to

[stiff saddle]

this is what i have now

[quiet salmon]

whats this chinese ass spread on oger

you cant have two regens so you use volt absorb on lanpex

and scald toxic haze recover or something to that degree

[quiet salmon]

why is it still tail glow max spa

[stiff saddle]

funny

[quiet salmon]

it has like 62 spa

[stiff saddle]

yeah its 68 spa but its really funny

[quiet salmon]

if ur running for the funny then run it for the funny but otherwise its bad

[stiff saddle]

anyway i tested and now have +6 lanturn turn 2

[quiet salmon]

https://tenor.com/view/bruh-nawh-no-way-fr-gif-22615915

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/175881a9703c4e09

please tear this apart

[quiet salmon]

wtf is agility scarf

[honest umbra]

I forgot to change that 💀

[quiet salmon]

weak to sr

[gentle pine]

Is that the only complaint?

Cuz that can be worked around

[vernal vale]

lol

yea seems pretty nice

[quiet salmon]

1 relevant resist

well 2 espeed resist is p valuable

[vernal vale]

Still kinda the same complaint

[quiet salmon]

no it isnt

[vernal vale]

Cause it's just typing

[quiet salmon]

one is saying it has problems walling anything bc it lacks the resists to do so and one is saying it gets pressured by rocks every time it comes in

you can work around hazards more easily but you cant work around having two resists

[snow pike]

the scyther theorem

[quiet salmon]

and regardless when it comes to defensive mons typing is essential

mediocre typing means mediocre wall

[snow pike]

Idk if the dlc2 stuff is in yet but I can imagine both eviolite duraladon and archuladon being great

[quiet salmon]

it isnt

duraludon sounds mid arch sounds alright

[vernal vale]

yea i mean both are an extension of kinda bad typing

[quiet salmon]

you can have bad typing and sr resistance and you can have good typing and sr weakness

[snow pike]

I just realized the body give the dragon type

which is a bit of a shame

Because it's spd sucks

[vernal vale]

Yea it's pretty close to doublade

With the steel primary and bad spd

Kind of nice that he uses spa tho

Better than doublade in that sense

[snow pike]

Doublade does have that broken stat stealing move which is very nice on a wall

(even if it's just use as a budget haze )

[muted oar]

Sounds like you say everything is bad

[gentle pine]

well

he only accepts the most abusively OP mons of all time, it seems

[vernal vale]

a bit yea

[quiet salmon]

thats how metas work the most viable (or "most abusively op mons of all time" in your words) outclass the less viable

[gentle pine]

yes

but there are other things that people can have fun with

But you tend to trip them, then shoot them while they're down

Like

Obviously point out obvious flaws in logic of something or whatever

like bad EV spreads

Or just that there's a better option to do the thing they're trying to do

But just "that's bad"

is kinda just a slap in the face

[quiet salmon]

then ur taking it too personally

u can have fun with viable mons too but if ur gonna post a set ur only having fun with maybe preface it with that (i dont see how this set is exclusive to scyther or bugs though)

[gentle pine]

I wasn't talking about the scyther/garganacle in particular

But the reason I used Scyther is because it's just the highest stat eviolite mon that didn't give me a 4x weakness

though I suppose it would still likely be better to use something like duraludon or perhaps dipplin

lol nope

rock/steel has 2 4x

and rock/dragon has 6 2x

grass/rock has 4 weaknesses, but it's not weak to SR

Slightly better stats

no toxic

[quiet salmon]

just use protect or something

[gentle pine]

salt cure by itself doesn't particularly pressure anything

and goes away after swapping

[quiet salmon]

it pressures waters and steels

you pressure hazard control some of which are water or steel

[gentle pine]

What would you say would be a minimum speed target for something trying to Ddance?

[quiet salmon]

like 80 unless its incredibly strong

[gentle pine]

Like, actual final stat

like, after 1 ddance, it outspeeds X important mon

[quiet salmon]

idk

fastest goodmon i can think of is 134

[gentle pine]

I ask because they added the new mons to IF showdown as well, and I was going between wanting a Gouging Fire fused with either Haxorus (or other high attack Dragon) or Dragapult for speed and just better dragon move.

[quiet salmon]

why wouldnt you just use entei

[gentle pine]

Protect that burns

[quiet salmon]

kings shield that burns

[gentle pine]

also protosynthesis

[quiet salmon]

as opposed to life orb vcreate

isnt morning sun more useful than bulwark for a universal healing that also gives you longevity against what i assume is supposed to be priority insurance

[gentle pine]

I just see burning things as an effective means of neutering E-Speed abusers, mainly.