showdown-teambuilding

[teal umbra]

I do be dumb sometimes, also Assault Vest

[muted oar]

Whats the stat spread for?

[past ore]

Oh yeah

I thought you were running life orb

[lofty scroll]

https://pokepast.es/1c66ec7cd3b23c60 Bisharp is the new meta (Building random sets for randbats using Pokemon I haven't encountered much of)

[sly thicket]

Thoughts on the set? Someone irl wanted a team for Lucario/infernape and I feel there’s a lot that could be improved on with this set, I just don’t know what (just realized this didn’t have the last 4 ev’s put on 4 of the mons, just pretend those all have 4 into SpD ) https://pokepast.es/6cd8d63f6a7343ae

[honest umbra]

I love the lucario infernape set because it relies on a mechanic on fusion that I only recently figured out

however

uh

it's slow

[sly thicket]

Yeah that’s what the tailwind is for lol

[honest umbra]

you have swords dance, you should probably use your nature to boost speed

[honest umbra]

tailwind will only work after a switch for 2 turns

that's insufficient for much of anything

4 turns

turn 1: set up tailwind
turn 2: switch out
turn 3: attack
turn 4: attack & end

make sense?

I hadnt gotten to that set yet

but uh

drop it

it wont work

[sly thicket]

Nah yeah I get that, kinda figured using a web setter was kinda redundant though. Should I use a web setter over a tailwind setter?

[honest umbra]

absolutely

because that at least can work

[sly thicket]

It doesn’t really do any damage without lorb so I can’t use a scarf on it lol

[honest umbra]

moving on

boomblast on the noivern is questionable

because it doesnt hit anything fairy cant hit other than fire and poison, and both are weak to ground which makes more sense as coverage

and has like 2 less power because of stab

ah doesnt have ground

one minute

[sly thicket]

Ah fair. Remember people saying something about boomburst being crazy. Was thinking of putting sylveon to give it pixilate so it could do really big damage but the set lacked things that could at least try to take a hit so figured togekiss would’ve been better here lol

[honest umbra]

yeah

boomburst is crazy because of pixilate/adaptability

also your chandelure/jolteon should be using its STABs

because the only types it cant hit are dark/grass (shit type) normal/dragon (mid) dark/ground (okay ig) and grass/normal

it's a really rare type to see

ignoring potential abilities like volt absorb

more often than not it doesnt need coverage

[sly thicket]

It uses its stabs though. It’s got volt switch and shadow ball

[honest umbra]

volt switch doesnt allow for repeat hits

[sly thicket]

Do you mean stabs that have more damage?

[honest umbra]

no

volt switch is strong enough

it's the switching bit

you cant stay in to maintain pressure, which will neuter you

[vestal rivet]

clear smog probably isnt gonna come in handy

just running tbolt would be a lot more useful i feel

[honest umbra]

volt switch is a support thing rather than offensive tool

also mew/electrode should be running u-turn

I get that sounds odd

but you want to get out from ground types

[sly thicket]

That actually makes a lot of sense I could see that

[vestal rivet]

well idk if id say support thing as fast pivoting is usually used aggressively to bait switches

[honest umbra]

fair

still chip is chip

[vestal rivet]

slow pivoting is a support thing to help get your big hitters in for free

[honest umbra]

I'd honestly just replace flamethrower

mostly because I use a ghost/electric set and just forwent any stabs for calm mind and strength sap

literally on my main team btw

[vestal rivet]

oh wait

i think we played last night b lol

are you inept gamer

[honest umbra]

yes

I was on a losing streak that night

which one

[vestal rivet]

tragedy

[honest umbra]

what's your name?

[vestal rivet]

simple cat enjoyer

[honest umbra]

FUCK

[vestal rivet]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/843565818218283018/1132700661084082357/pandathumbsup.gif

[honest umbra]

I literally have that replay saved

[vestal rivet]

LOL

[honest umbra]

im still mad about the scald knock off toxdreigon

that shit violated me

also the amount of 30% chances you got

[vestal rivet]

as i mentioned there's no reason for me to run stabs on it because its offensively so weak so i just run moves that let me make progress

[honest umbra]

I get it

I'm just upset

[vestal rivet]

it is obscenely fat though

[honest umbra]

mostly because I got like 3 burns

and 3 stat drops

[vestal rivet]

i probably could do to change it, i just wanted poison / dragon to stop people from running the gen 3 triple fusion back when it was busted as fuck

[honest umbra]

ah im being biased

still you got a stat drop where it really mattered and I will never not be upset

because it forced out a mon who was setup

[vestal rivet]

hmmm

which one was it

i dont think it actually mattered

[honest umbra]

the liquidation defense drop

[vestal rivet]

oh

that didnt matter

you were going to kill yourself killing mantine + chomp anyways

i only needed to chip u to put urself in a range where pressing buttons on me would kill yourself

which i didnt need a defense drop for

[honest umbra]

mm

still upset I set out electric lead into ground

[vestal rivet]

loool i feel like the lead on my team is pretty obvious tbh

[honest umbra]

truthfully I cant tell you what my read was

[vestal rivet]

but most people do not know what mantine is

so i cannot blame you

👻

[honest umbra]

I know what mantine is

I just have fuck off idea of when to use it

you're also half the reason this change was made

metahelmise suffers 4mss

[vestal rivet]

it's a water type that's insanely bulky for use as a head w 85/80/140 for its biases that has access to scald / roost / defog

[honest umbra]

eh

I forget garchomp has stealth rock tbh

[vestal rivet]

so it lends itself very well into creating bulky water grounds

wtf thats like

garchomps one job

i mean less so in if meta because

[honest umbra]

dude 130 attack is ripped

[vestal rivet]

lol garchomp getting dd xd

[honest umbra]

that too

[vestal rivet]

least psychotic infinte fusion change

[honest umbra]

I think my thought was "send out my hardest special hitter I cant tell what the lead is"

or something of that nature

[vestal rivet]

what is hydreigon suicune supposed to be accomplishing btw

[honest umbra]

fast taunt

dark type for anti prankster

[vestal rivet]

base 89 is hardly what id call fast tbh

[honest umbra]

strong stab combo for offensive purposes

[honest umbra]

most hazard setters are slower or uninvested

the fast ones are prankster

frankly it's because my options for speed were weavile and starmie

and I wanted water because of ice and fire resist

because if you look carefully I'm slightly weak to that

it's essentially just me scraping the bottom of the barrel for something

I did consider scald over hydro

[vestal rivet]

tbh id just go with this if youre really attached to the idea

outspeeds upwards of uninvested base 100 which is likely higher than most rockers u'll run into

without forfeiting bulk

and then also helps you with sticking around to actually keep hazards off

having a rock resist for your hazard removal is nice because we dont have hdb but

cant be too choosey

apologies if you aren't looking for input though 👻

[honest umbra]

it's good input

I'm keeping hydro because I still need it to like

kill fire

[vestal rivet]

i just realized i forgot to ask

so i felt bad

lol

scald should still be enough to convince fire types to fuck off

like sure its uninvested in spatk

but ur base 113

its not like things are going to COMFORTABLY stay in on you clicking a se stab

[honest umbra]

eh

most the metagame runs bulky

but then again

fire is more an offensive type

[vestal rivet]

bulky fire types dont really exist in if

[honest umbra]

yeah

[vestal rivet]

entei, moltres, and arcanine are around the best you got

and those are like

uh

not great

[honest umbra]

i mean

intimidate

you can focus more on special bulk

but fire is also just

not a defensive type

[vestal rivet]

intimidate + wow is great at convincing people to fuck off

[honest umbra]

it's only decent for fire/steel quad resistant fairy

which is a valuable niche considering the espeed and boomburst sylveons being popular

and why I had that metagross arcanine

[vestal rivet]

the problem w that is ur weak to eq

[honest umbra]

yep

[vestal rivet]

which any dd'er will usually run

[honest umbra]

cant have anything be perfect unfortunately

[vestal rivet]

sadly no fire / steel types with levitate

in ifdex

[honest umbra]

I had just settled because I had 2 flying types

and figured I could always just piss off

[vestal rivet]

if u really wanna make those guys sad

u can always run

the pokemon where you have to wonder if the name is being fused correctly

[honest umbra]

really

oh yeah

[vestal rivet]

have to be more careful with pixilate boombursters cuz

[honest umbra]

bullet punch or eq

[vestal rivet]

they usually run flamethrower for coverage

but u can comfortably take it at least once

uhhh good question

id just go w bullet punch

[honest umbra]

yeah

idk if the fire type fear is worth it because A. 'm giga slow B. I'm quad weak

oh

i just processed

lmao

also hycune is immune to spikes which is fire

[vestal rivet]

immunity to spikes on your hazard remover is always great

the more comfortably you can switch your hazard remover in on hazards the better

[honest umbra]

literally unbothered by max hazards

because levitate just ignores spikes and 6% off rocks is irrelevant

also metagross dhelmise is pretty nice for hazard removal

[gusty burrow]

I've seen Metagross/Dhelmise before, it was Bullet Punch/SD/Earthquake/Power Whip

[void willow]

I think if you're running a slow, physical Steel-type with high attack, you're usually going to want Bullet Punch since priority is so valuable and Sylveon fusions are so commonplace

[snow pike]

staying specially bulky with some atk evs to damage steel type stallmons more

not super specific

[honest umbra]

what's the point of not max hp with what went in spdef

it's literally 1 point so it doesnt really matter

did you want uneven hp?

[jaunty geode]

Yes you do want uneven hp

[quiet salmon]

it only really matters for those who are weak to sr and dont use lefties so u dont get 4hkod switching in

[jaunty geode]

Nope matters for every pokemon

[honest umbra]

isnt steel fire neutral

i mean at least that makes sense but seems kinda wack

[honest umbra]

why

saying yes or no and then not elaborating is the dumbest shit I'll ever see

even if the why is super vague at least it makes it easier to ask follow-up

[jaunty geode]

Because if even hp stat you take 12.5 % if have odd hp stat you take like 11%

[honest umbra]

I dont think that's how math works

it's closer to like 12.45 or something

it doesnt really matter because what is switching in 8 times and only taking hazard damage each time

that 9th turn seems dumb for imbalancing your defense

[jaunty geode]

What do me an unbalancing of defensive

[honest umbra]

I prefer defense stats to not have large discrepancy because of the diversity of attackers

obv there's times for it but generally it's better unless you have something specific in mind

or just have a bad base stat and would rather focus on your strength over weaknesses

[tired comet]

https://pokepast.es/19650d07cd96b031
New cringe just dropped. Perfectly baked by yours truly.

I dunno what to call this. Balance, bulky offense maybe?

[quiet salmon]

bulky offense with like 2 offensive mons

this is bulky balance and a bad one at that

[tired comet]

As expected....

At this point I'm starting to think I can't build teams properly.

Could you at least tell why? I need some help.

[upper granite]

Haven't played since release what did I miss

[quiet salmon]

mamozor is basically the only mon with significant power but is walled by water and some fires because ice steel is a bad offensive typing
chanpex either goes wall route or bulky wallbreaker route you cant have a middle ground because you get the worst of both
azumachomp is grossly overrated bc despite its "no weaknesses " it lacks recovery and power
clef is fine but stored power is p bad i think
i have no idea why you used latiark for this
drifvire is also pretty bad

[tired comet]

Latiark was mostly as a fast pivot and knock off. Foul Play was also very useful for setup sweepers.

And yeah Drifvire is very bad

I think if I want to go with the bulky Chomp route, I should fuse it with something that gives it recovery, huh?

[fading shadow]

idk if you want offensive or defensive chomp fusion but ive been having some succcess with a kecleon fusion but i use it more offensive

[tired comet]

Mamozor was just a concept to counter Boomburst and Pixilate sweepers. It works well for that, but Ice/Steel is a very bad typing, true.

Ice was the only typing that worked against the Fairy/Flyings and Normal/Dragons, unfortunately

[fading shadow]

i dont really have much advice for the boomburst because its got so much power but weezing magnezone ive found to have a great matchup into a lot of e speeders

[tired comet]

Thank you for the criticism though. It's extremely helpful.

You helped me put things into perspective.

[upper granite]

Does my team still hold up on this meta? I pretty much haven't played since release
https://pokepast.es/7c49740be80bb17f

[teal umbra]

what're the notable speed tiers, ik there's 100

[upper granite]

Haven't played in a while, but 335 speed is pretty good

[muted oar]

Pretty sure Espeed Entei isn't legal anymore

The move is event only

[muted oar]

Why does Garzor have Sand veil

[quiet salmon]

doesnt it get 2hkod by boomburst

thats not a counter

[tired comet]

Oh?

Maybe I calc'd it wrong.

I swore it was a 3HKO

[quiet salmon]

its 96/66 bulk thats not living anything

[tired comet]

Okay, I used the calculator wrong. I forgot to change the stats lol

Yeah it's a 2HKO, this sucks

[upper granite]

Wrong ability

[muted oar]

Get hit once then priority kill?

[upper granite]

Yea probably

[quiet salmon]

why would it stay in

[vestal rivet]

yeah even if youre only getting 2hko'd it just leaves lol

then you cant switch it in again

thats not even a check at that point

[upper granite]

It's just dead weight

[vestal rivet]

plus boombursters also usually run fire as their coverage move

so ice steel is like

uh

kinda asking to perish

[muted oar]

Okay then what's the best Sylvern counter to you

[quiet salmon]

water steel regenvest

[muted oar]

Still dumb that vest is legal

[quiet salmon]

what

[vestal rivet]

its insane that your complaint there is vest

LOL

i have heard infinite complaints about regenerator

but vest????

[upper granite]

Weirdist complaint

Regenerator stall is the reason I wasn't top 25

[tired comet]

Water Steel RegenVest. Solves all your problems.

Except if your problems are Electric, Ground or Fighting related.

But there's other stuff for that

[muted oar]

A lot of baseless assumptions that you made off that comment.

It shouldn't be legal because it's not acquirable in game. It's based on a game where by normal methods it's impossible to acquire

Only option is randomizer and getting lucky

[tired comet]

Sir by that logic we shouldn't have Sleep Clause

Or more than one of some items on a team

[muted oar]

No?

[vestal rivet]

yeah that is two very different things

[tired comet]

Besides, Assault Vests are infinitely acquirable in almost every game they're in.

[vestal rivet]

if its not obtainable legally in infinite fusion it should not be legal

he is correct

there have been many things that have been changed specifically on the legality of infinite fusion

[tired comet]

Wait, then why hasn't this been brought up before

[quiet salmon]

removal of vest would be catastrophic

[vestal rivet]

i dunno, i didnt know it wasnt in if and i am usually the most vocal about these things

ask nedsdag

[quiet salmon]

one thing keeping boomburst and shit only unhealthy instead of broken

[muted oar]

Its TECHNICALLY acquirable using the randomizer, so that's why they allowed it but that's dumb to me

[vestal rivet]

that feels wrong lol

[muted oar]

That's what I'm saying!

I like to use my showdown teams in game and vice versa, but I can't with assault vest users so it kinda ruins the experience for me

[tired comet]

Assault Vest will only be legal in IF Balanced Hackmons

[vestal rivet]

yea but this is like

[muted oar]

It has

[vestal rivet]

not a part of the conversation at hand

lol

[tired comet]

I mean, you can go ahead and propose its ban.

But don't think it won't have any consequences on the meta.

[vestal rivet]

showdown tries to be as close to 1:1 with the game as possible, with the only exceptions being made for things that are inherently uncompetitive

its like saying "rage fist shouldnt work the way it does on showdown because its broken"

[muted oar]

Yes

[quiet salmon]

i never posed this as an argument

[muted oar]

Not in this game? That's all that matters

[tired comet]

Alright, I understand that.

[vestal rivet]

sure if u remove av from legality things will change in the meta but like

u just handle those things as ncessary then lol

if boomburst becomes impossible to deal with without av, you ban boomburst

[muted oar]

Already did. Got the "randomizer" explanation from devs

[tired comet]

Start a petition

[quiet salmon]

i did not say those actions were untenable either

im of the opinion that boomburst should be banned regardless

[tired comet]

True!

Please kill it.

[upper granite]

I agree with this ban

[vestal rivet]

i have said since the start that boomburst and espeed will just result in things abusing boomburst / espeed

almost every om bans both moves for good reason

[upper granite]

Most mons that get boom burst also get hyper voice

[quiet salmon]

the three main oms dont

[tired comet]

ESpeed isn't that bad by itself. I feel like Pixilate is what makes it go out of control.

Pixilate makes a lot of things go out of control lol

[vestal rivet]

hm well i should specify

[muted oar]

What is OM

[vestal rivet]

oms that allow for stuff like dnite getting stab espeed lol

[upper granite]

Not rlly, most teams will have a fire and ot steel

[vestal rivet]

usually end up banning espeed

[vestal rivet]

original metagame

[quiet salmon]

other metagame

[tired comet]

Ah yes, Gen 9 OU

[vestal rivet]

o, ya that

[muted oar]

Oh thanks

[vestal rivet]

gen 9 ou has its own problems

[quiet salmon]

idt dragonite has been banned in aaa

[upper granite]

Goldengo

[vestal rivet]

mmmm it was when i played it last

but that was

gen 6

i think espeed was banned, not dragonite though, idr

[quiet salmon]

gen 9 it was unbanned and has never been banned

theyd ban dragonite in any case

[vestal rivet]

ifdex is also gen 7

so that

is different lol

[muted oar]

Or you have Simple+DD Dragonite

[upper granite]

Wonder how neutralizing gas would change the Meta

[tired comet]

The problem is how do we tell the mods that Boomburst is a problem.

[muted oar]

Or wait did they end up banning simple? Or just Geomancy?

[quiet salmon]

ngas would be significant in keeping ph in check

[upper granite]

Geo

[vestal rivet]

u can just talk to yoshi about it

[tired comet]

h

[quiet salmon]

suspect test

[tired comet]

I can, can't I?

[vestal rivet]

suspect tests would be nice

[upper granite]

By telling them boom burst is a problem

[upper granite]

Very nice

[muted oar]

Nah boomburst is fine

[vestal rivet]

too bad things just get banned :v

[upper granite]

Is their a way to change happiness in showdown

[gilded crown]

simple is balanced by the fact that the only mon with it is bibarel which sucks

[upper granite]

Considering running return on proyz and entei

[vestal rivet]

yes, click the details section where you change gender, level, shininess, and hidden power type

[upper granite]

Thanke

[honest umbra]

what're the best defensive fire type combos that arent fire/steel

[dreamy lion]

Fire/Grass cover for each other pretty well

[honest umbra]

not a whole lot of resists though

also doesnt get neutrality on rocks

[fading shadow]

fire fighting? neutral to rocks at least

[sly thicket]

Yeah only other options other than steel for fire is ground or fighting if your main concern is rocks

[honest umbra]

Isnt water also possible

[sly thicket]

Fire/Ground just straight dies to water unless it’s got hella bulk so that’s locked to a sun team so fire/fighting is prolly your best offensive type there

[sly thicket]

Nah water doesn’t resist rock

[honest umbra]

wild

[sly thicket]

Which is weird cause I thought it at least resisted either ground or rock

[honest umbra]

doesnt resist neither

just hits them nicely

weird af

[sly thicket]

Nope

[fading shadow]

it resists water ice steel and fire

dark fire become incineroar >:)

[sly thicket]

If you’re worried specifically about those types go for rock yeah

But rock gets slapped by a lot too

[honest umbra]

dude im having the worst game of my life

I'm flinched by so many 30%s

fuck

[fading shadow]

is it a togekiss fusion

[honest umbra]

no

it's just fucking me up anyways

it died but it cost me a mon i didnt need to lose

eh it's 4-2 for me now but that early game was vile

[fading shadow]

ok its weak to rocks but fire poison with levitate could be really nice

[honest umbra]

also missed like 2 85%

[sly thicket]

I lost to stored power this morning because I forgot I had earth power on a Mon that could hit and out speed an azumarill/toxapex (might not have ohko’d it but it still would have at least threatened a switch lol) when you’re having an unlucky game, just remember you could always just be bad at the game like me

[honest umbra]

isnt stored power AG

[sly thicket]

If it is then I lost to an AG team with an OU team which would make a lot more sense lmao

Still though I felt that game was a lot more winnable if I just remembered my sets lol

[honest umbra]

I've gotten mixed messages

ah I lied

idk what that guy was on about then

whatever

[quiet salmon]

fire ground is fine

having 4x weaknesses doesnt disqualify a mon unless its multiple of them or they have no relevant resistances or smth like that

[honest umbra]

i mean a ground and water weakness is pretty bad considering scald and eq

[sly thicket]

Nah it doesn’t you’re right, but a 4x weakness to a type you’re more or less guaranteed to run into every match at least warrants some type of countermeasure (mandating a sun team for it is a bit much in hindsight since you could just have a water absorb Mon lol)

[quiet salmon]

thats just how teambuilding works

[quiet salmon]

this applies for almost every fire mon in existence

[honest umbra]

yeah

that's true

settled on rock fire because ttar happens to work for what I wanted

[sly thicket]

Well yeah but most of those can at least not get ohko’d by almost any water move being clicked on them

[honest umbra]

which is also particularly deranged and I wont explain

[sly thicket]

Sand storm?

[honest umbra]

no

movepool

and the right offensive stat

[sly thicket]

Ah fair

Idk what you put with it but I wish it the best of luck in this doggie dog world

[honest umbra]

doggie dog

yeah

I just have to wait for a good switch in and then it balls

[quiet salmon]

ur not staying in to get hit 70% or 140% by water moves in the first place

fire/ground is a great offensive type while also neutralizing its rock weakness

[sly thicket]

Hard agree on this point. Excellent offensive typing, the 4x weakness point is a hill I’ll still die on. You do make a good point though with the 70-140 comparison

[quiet salmon]

there are a dozen mons who are good/broken with 4x weaknesses

[sly thicket]

First one I can think of off hand is ttar but that gets covered by it’s stat block and sand stream

[quiet salmon]

roaring moon
lando(-t)
genesect
pheromosa
shaymin-s
sneasler
scizor(-mega)
ferro```
etc

[dreamy lion]

Fire/Ground, the ground being Quagsire with Water absorb

[quiet salmon]

idt thats necessary

[honest umbra]

I mean

that's a solution

not captilazing on its offensive type seems like a dumb idea

but thas me

[dreamy lion]

It’s the only water absorbing pokemon with a ground type

[honest umbra]

issue being it doesnt really defensively outclass water steel (first image is water immune but I just use real mons because I like how bulbapedia formatting looks)

I mean if you have issues with fighting and electric types (which you really shouldnt considering they both have types that they cant hit) ig

[sly thicket]

sadly the Sire is too slow to take advantage of it even with webs it looks like

Best Mon I could think of off hand to go with it to at least give it some speed was talonflame but even then it’s speed is 65 which is barely enough to utilize web. imo it’s best used with something bulkier and stronger to at least allow it to hit something hard. Maybe infernape/quagsire could do something in trick room but trick room is inconsistent at best, and that’s a hard maybe (actually, 65 doesn’t even allow it to use web so you’d have to use tailwind on it to do something but it still doesn’t really hit hard so point still stands, trickroom or bust imo )

[fading shadow]

i saw the discussion about the fire ground type. ninetales garchomp seems like it could be decent? fairly fast and offensive and drought helps negate the water weakness

[sly thicket]

Might have to make it a timid nature or give it scarf to be a super threat but definitely a Mon that could be useful

[quiet salmon]

looks bad

[muted oar]

If you're 4x weak to like psychic then sure it's not a big deal, but a relatively common type like water is a big deal

[quiet salmon]

heatran is 4x weak to ground

[honest umbra]

it does have two quad resists though

one of which is pretty relevant

[quiet salmon]

quad resist is not that much better than a resist

[honest umbra]

truthfully I don't know the intricacies of why heatran is good

[vestal rivet]

heatran has had a variety of good defensive cores

mega vena + heatran is a really good example

where they covered eachother very well

[honest umbra]

i see

[vestal rivet]

heatran also just has a like

an amazing movepool to do anything u want with it

lol

[honest umbra]

also solid spread

[sly thicket]

So then a quad weakness Mon can work on paper as long as it can serve as at least a good wall and a serviceable movepool is what I got from that

[honest umbra]

91 106 106 isnt bad

[honest umbra]

or a horrifying offensive threat

[vestal rivet]

what no a quad weakness mon can work not even on paper just in general for a wide variety of reasons

like

have u ever considered ttar to be a good pokemon in ur life

it has a 4x weakness AND a weakness to ground!!!

and a weakness to fairy 😱

thats awful

[sly thicket]

Ttar makes up for that weakness with solid bulk and a solid movepool though?

[fading shadow]

garchomp and landorus are both pretty good and have 4x weankesses

[sly thicket]

Sand stream also helps with that too

[vestal rivet]

the reality is the more important thing than one individual pokemons typing + weaknesses is how your team compensates for those

offensive pokemon don't really care about 4xs because a 2x is usually death for them anyways

[quiet salmon]

even for defensive mons 4x weakness is hardly worse than 2x weakness bc they dont want to stay in on a 2x weakness anyway

[vestal rivet]

yeah

[sly thicket]

Honestly that was what I got from your 70-140 comparison so at least I was right about one thing in this convo

[vestal rivet]

in some cases ur defensive mons will happily take a 2x if it results in serious progress for u at little downside but its not like u want to be taking SE hits

[sly thicket]

True

I don’t even know what we were disagreeing about anymore if ima be real lmao. I think we were all more or less saying the same thing in a different form, when I said “on paper” I meant that at least the idea should check out lol

[quiet salmon]

the original topic was whether fire ground's 4x water weakness was a significant one

[sly thicket]

And the whole team compensating thing was what I was trying to get at but ig I just didn’t know how to convey that lmao

[sly thicket]

I mean at the end of the day it is a significant weakness to have tbf cause of how common that type is, that’s just how I see it. I’m not even sure if that’s a hot take to have though at this point I’m too lost in the sauce and at work so can’t really put too much brain power into making sense of the point you were trying to make if it was something that wasn’t touched up on already

[robust rapids]

this is the best fire/ground type I could think of, passho berry would let you live a hit from defensive water types, but anything with investment will kill you through it

[honest umbra]

deranged behavior

[robust rapids]

pray no one has protect or a water/fighting type

[honest umbra]

okay

how many water/fighting types have you seen

having that type combo is somehow even more deranged than this

[robust rapids]

having aqua jet or mach punch isnt

[honest umbra]

yeah

I dont exactly expect it to be good beyond taking a few down with it

[sly thicket]

Completely unrelated but what sets do sylveon/noivern go around running normally? Wanna properly prepare my boomburst pixilate abuser counter lol

[honest umbra]

specs, scarf and life orb

typically max SpA invest

maybe speed if it's scarfed

[robust rapids]

usually boomburst/flamethrower/something/u-turn

[honest umbra]

flamthrower boomburst and like

yeah

[robust rapids]

watch out for the calm mind sets tho

[sly thicket]

Is HP Ground something I should consider since it’s literally its only ground move or is that just too irrelevant to worry about?

[robust rapids]

only really scary on the calm mind sets,

I usually use weezing for most sylveon/noivern and sylveon/dragonite fusions

[quiet salmon]

every entei wants vcreate

ive used arcanine steelix

its a decent wall

[quiet salmon]

this is fake af i dont see how it even gets a ddance up let alone “take a few down with it”

[honest umbra]

getting it on the right mon

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sly thicket]

Why not flip those and just get a strictly better typing in fire/dark? Is a rock type something you need that badly?

[robust rapids]

doesnt v-create completely negate the point of d-dance?

[quiet salmon]

no bc ur getting a whole 80% more dmg

[robust rapids]

but then you drop speed, and at 101 base speed you're really not that fast

[honest umbra]

fairy racism and stealth rock

but yeah

[quiet salmon]

80% more power is an incredible tradeoff

[quiet salmon]

wym sr

both are weak to sr

[honest umbra]

been lied to

[hallow axle]

doing ranbats and I hope 1 of the sets I made shows up

[dreamy lion]

I made like 60, and I have seen many of them

[wide sparrow]

azumarill/blaziken (i play in AG)

[quiet salmon]

Fake !

[upper granite]

Scarf

[snow pike]

Specs/Scarf Boomburst, Draco Meteor/U-Turn, Flamethrower, Switcheroo with 252+Spa 252spe on specs and scarf usually
Rare: Leftovers Calm Mind sets maybe with roost

[snow pike]

That doesn't seem that good, either you have speed boost or you have huge power, can't have both

[muted oar]

That one has to be nuts

But such an ugly sprite!!!

[wide sparrow]

you can always do a #sprite-requests x)

[vestal rivet]

idt azu blaziken would even be anything crazy by ag standards lol

[muted oar]

Wait I'm an idiot I was thinking in my head it had speed boost and huge power for some reason

To use speed boost with blaziken you'd have to run like thick club instead

Great tusk except....infinitely more damage lol

[vestal rivet]

yea as one (speed boost and huge power) is not a thing, thankfully

[muted oar]

Lol yeah

[red spear]

For now

[nova willow]

for now?!

pokebilities?!

[sly thicket]

The idea of a held item that fuses both fusions abilities terrifies me

[gilded crown]

what are some good moves for toxapex/tyranitar

[fading shadow]

depends what you wanna do with it tbh. knock i feel is always good tho

[honest umbra]

what're the best types for neutral coverage

I'm aware of like ghost/normal but I cant think of any decent ones other than like dragon

which is kinda eh in this metagame thanks to steel being monstrous

[glass vector]

Ghost/Fighting hits i think everything for at least neutral damage

[honest umbra]

no

normal ghost lol

but other than that yes

handy dandy calculator

not every type exists

but most do so I dont miss too much

[sly thicket]

If you mean offensively bolt beam never can go wrong but that’s a scary type to run stab on for obvious reasons

[honest umbra]

I literally cant find that move

what has that

[vestal rivet]

thunderbolt + ice beam

[sly thicket]

It’s a shortened term for ice beam/ thunderbolt. Basically Ice/Electric

[vestal rivet]

its just a well known way of referring to the two

its been used for physical ice / electric stab in the past as well

but

[honest umbra]

ah

[vestal rivet]

yea

[honest umbra]

I'm not a giga sweat despite how it might look

I just really like the creativity I can express in the meta game

[sly thicket]

Honestly same lol

[honest umbra]

dude every time something im really proud of doesnt work it's big sad

[vestal rivet]

dw i dont think anyone will judge for not knowing random smogon terminology lol

and if they do idk they probably should find more things to do with their life

[honest umbra]

to be fair

I am chronically online in this channel

[vestal rivet]

ur not the only one but also the best advice i have ever seen someone given wrt being chronically online in spaces is

do you like the idea of other people sharing this with u

cause if u do then u should make sure its a welcoming and enjoyable space to be in

[honest umbra]

I think I do?

bad mood swings

[vestal rivet]

the thing is

[honest umbra]

normally yes but I can come off the wrong way

[vestal rivet]

people just have to look into a channel once

and see someone acting in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable

to ruin the experience for them forever

i do not really think any less of u and am not trying to shame u for it fwiw

[upper granite]

Is this team good? I made it a month ago, ik espeed doesn't work on entei any more
https://pokepast.es/384c086cfb7353d0

[vestal rivet]

just explaining how this stuff can come off

[honest umbra]

regimory looks more passive than I'd like but it seems okay as a setter

[vestal rivet]

u-turn + eq can result in you ending up giving up free dd's

or really any set up move

just dd will be the most immediately life threatening

[honest umbra]

gliscor/swampert doesnt have its nature set

which is necessary

[vestal rivet]

ferro + gal seems pretty poor for both of those

[honest umbra]

dont mesh well

[vestal rivet]

if you want a bulky sticky web setter there are options for those (usually ariados performs better here)

and if you just want a way to get sticky webs off and die there are options for those

[honest umbra]

one wants to be a fast suicide lead and one wants to be fat

[vestal rivet]

yea

[honest umbra]

and just ends up really awkward

dual chop is silly generally

just use claw

I understand that sash exists

[vestal rivet]

technician

[honest umbra]

oh

Im blind

lmao

I dont see anything wrong with kyurem/raikou

just might be worst considering a more regular set because choice is hard to use in a meta game so bulky

also fix your natures

just generally half your mons dont have natures

anyways I'm trying to make a set of twos (hyper offense, bulkier offense, support) because I wanna see how that kind of structure fares, but I literally cant iron out the second bulky offense
https://pokepast.es/8572fc21270fa221

hlep

i'm generally trying to favor neutral hitters because there's too much shit to deal with

[sly thicket]

Why not boomburst over hp steel? Hits harder and hits a lot for neutral

[honest umbra]

ah

i pressed the wrong hidden power im pretty sure

meant to press ground

i think

been like 30 minutes

one minute

ah no

[sly thicket]

Also doesn’t night shade just do more damage? I’m not too familiar with how that works but I thought it went off of the users level so it’d have a power of 100

[honest umbra]

I hit steel

no

it does 100 damage flat

[worthy basin]

I don't belive it's power of 100, it's 100 damage

[sly thicket]

Ohhhh

[worthy basin]

better on walls and tanks

[sly thicket]

Yeah that’s a lot worse nvm

[honest umbra]

blissey is famous for using seismic toss to do that

or somewhat anyway

[worthy basin]

that have horrible offensive stats

[honest umbra]

yeah

[vestal rivet]

whats the goal with this moltres+noivern

[honest umbra]

dragon fire has dumbass good coverage

[vestal rivet]

it being modest would imply you want it to hit as hard as possible, but ur not using fire blast or draco

[worthy basin]

I understand flamethrower

[vestal rivet]

i'd also rather just u-turn rather than a hidden power

[honest umbra]

yeah that's fair

it has like two type combos it cant hit (water fairy and rock fairy) and steel dispatches that well enough

which is why i picked it

[worthy basin]

Fireblast has burned me too many time for me to not respect flamethrower users

[honest umbra]

as for draco?

[worthy basin]

every time

[honest umbra]

I think it was because I prefer sustain because things are so bulky

[worthy basin]

It's moltres noivern

if it didn't kill you shouldn't have clicked

[vestal rivet]

the problem is most things will just shrug off dpulses

[honest umbra]

if this bites me im pinging you

[vestal rivet]

i give you permission

BUT

[worthy basin]

In the ping mention how it did 80% and that your revenge killer cleaned up

[vestal rivet]

if you play around the fact that you have draco and not pulse badly and then ping me you will never hear the end of it

so use the permission to ping wisely

[honest umbra]

updated

nah im pinging for fire blast

[vestal rivet]

oh

yeah okay

ill allow that

[honest umbra]

not why I think it'd bite me

[vestal rivet]

oh also i would just run life orb > lefties tbh

[honest umbra]

I'm thinking it does 60% and then they roost

[vestal rivet]

if it does 60% and then they roost

[honest umbra]

or fire blast miss

[vestal rivet]

flamethrower would be useless

because itd do less than 60% so it wouldnt even be 10% chip

[worthy basin]

This thing is so fragile it doesn't need lefties

[honest umbra]

yeah true

[vestal rivet]

its not like 88/83/83 defenses is incapable of taking a hit but

you wont comfortably be taking hits

[honest umbra]

roost is funny

[vestal rivet]

could also run specs + switcheroo

[worthy basin]

You're not taking enough for roost to be helpful 95% of the time

[vestal rivet]

if u dont mind the occasional pain of specs draco

/ scarf

up to u

[honest umbra]

also im planning on u-turn support stuff once I get to it

[worthy basin]

Better of coverage

but that's preferance

[honest umbra]

can I get what I asked for now

[vestal rivet]

what was what you asked for

[worthy basin]

I'd have to see the movepool

[honest umbra]

a bulky offense mon

it's shit

i assure you

[vestal rivet]

oh

[worthy basin]

Also is flame body the best it gets

[vestal rivet]

ok give me an idea

of what u want for 'bulky offense'

[honest umbra]

it's that or infiltrator

[worthy basin]

What do you want it to do

[honest umbra]

that's a broad question

uh

[worthy basin]

or is there anything you have trouble dealing with

[honest umbra]

still sticking with the theme of wide net coverage

[vestal rivet]

may i put forward

[honest umbra]

think of stuff like this

not that

it's hard to make work

because defensive and offensive stuff tends not to mesh

[vestal rivet]

this is a very strange gimmick

lol

[honest umbra]

it's because I've had to switch around a lot and then end up worn down slowly

[worthy basin]

How bulky are we talking

[honest umbra]

and lose at turn 80

[vestal rivet]

there are better ways to deal with this tbh

[honest umbra]

yeah

[worthy basin]

how many hits is it taking

and from what

[honest umbra]

I just want it to be able to roost off damage from fairies, dark and like

really dark and fairy

or recover

[worthy basin]

So steal+X with recovery

[honest umbra]

roughly

[worthy basin]

is it threatening setup?

[honest umbra]

if we're imitating hydreigon/yanmega?

maybe

depends

I already have two set up mons

one is sub and quiver

[worthy basin]

So immediate damage

[honest umbra]

preferably

i think

[worthy basin]

Is physical wall ok?

[honest umbra]

yeah

honestly as long as I get ideas i'm chill

i just couldn't find a solution i'd be satisfied with

[worthy basin]

Protect is malleable but does this work

No steel typing but only weak to grass

[honest umbra]

well enough

the steelix is an entertaining pick though

[worthy basin]

And will eat basically anything physical with little invest

[worthy basin]

I don't use it myself, but I've seen it enough for it to be on my radar

[honest umbra]

yeah

[worthy basin]

Sheer force gets your immediate damage

[honest umbra]

I've had

[worthy basin]

and water ground is great coverage

[honest umbra]

unfortunate encounters with a heavily physical team

[worthy basin]

It's why I value intimidate so much

you also won't take life orb damage

[honest umbra]

i think you're confused

I was the heavily physical team

against the high defense in the game

and other things

not fun

[sly thicket]

Water/ground is legit the only reason I try to make it a point to have grass on my team ngl

[honest umbra]

it had sap sipper

not fun

prolly gonna try the garchomp/matine one by merit of rocky helmet and rough skin being funny

also rocks

but feraligatr is going into the back-up box

christ

do yall clean your boxes or just leave them

[worthy basin]

Folders help

[honest umbra]

yeah

[worthy basin]

Although I'm relativley knew so it's not this bad yet

I also use boxes

[honest umbra]

mine is just chaos and naming if I consider them decent

[worthy basin]

Anything I'm not actively intrested in is in a box and I delete the team

[honest umbra]

prolly should take the time

[sly thicket]

My teams never save so I have to keep on remaking mine

[worthy basin]

Phone user?

[honest umbra]

what was I cooking

[worthy basin]

Why does this exsist

[honest umbra]

i dont kno

[fleet hamlet]

is there a better option than Mantine for physical bulk + roost?

[sly thicket]

Yeah…

[worthy basin]

yes

anything else

[honest umbra]

skarm

[worthy basin]

togekiss

[honest umbra]

physical bulk?

[worthy basin]

nvm

[vestal rivet]

i mean

[fleet hamlet]

for garchomp/roughskin/rocky helmet abuse

[honest umbra]

mainly skarm and gliscor

[vestal rivet]

if u want to ignore the reason why u are using mantine

yea

theres plenty of other options

[patent hatch]

I copy a backup of all my sets on a separate thing like Apple Notes or Google Docs when this happens since I’m a phone user too.

[vestal rivet]

but then u are not water/ground

lol

[honest umbra]

man I use phone like once a week because im not on pc and I wanna team build

[sly thicket]

I do as well but I normally forget to export and even when I remind myself I cba so ig self fulfilling pain

[honest umbra]

unrelated but gligar looks like a funny eviolite mon tbh

obv not as broken as dusclops

but still

funny

[worthy basin]

Eviolite doesn't work

I think

[fleet hamlet]

no love for porygon2?

[worthy basin]

maybe

[vestal rivet]

...

[honest umbra]

oh yeah nfe

[vestal rivet]

it does

[patent hatch]

Eviolite does work

[honest umbra]

didnt they make eviolite for NFE only or was that rolled back

[vestal rivet]

no eviolite works if ur pokemon has another evolution stage

[patent hatch]

As long as at least 1 part of the fusion is NFE, it will work

[worthy basin]

But soul dew doesn't

[honest umbra]

meh

[vestal rivet]

soul dew is broken

lol

[worthy basin]

old soul dew

[patent hatch]

1.2x psychic and dragon is broken?

[vestal rivet]

no i mean

its supposed to work if either are latios / latias

atm it only works if the head(?) is latios / latias

[worthy basin]

New one is essential spoon + whatever the other is

[vestal rivet]

eviolite works regardless of if ur nfe is head / body tho

[worthy basin]

So that's why my draco's were doing jack

[honest umbra]

i mean

dont you want latios and latias as heads

speed?

tf

[worthy basin]

I though Kyurem+Latios nuking would be fuuny

Kyurem gave higher spa

I think

it was a bit ago

[honest umbra]

no

they're tied

both are 130

[vestal rivet]

i mean

[honest umbra]

one just has a strictly better spread and type

[worthy basin]

NVM it's the same

[vestal rivet]

o its 5 point difference in speed

lol

i wouldnt say dragon ice is a good type tho

[worthy basin]

I knew I had a reason

[worthy basin]

It was for a joke team

[honest umbra]

I think the dragon psychic is better because of the 15 more hp

[vestal rivet]

oh

ok i was not sure which one u meant

[worthy basin]

It was a though experiment

How much could I make my opponent hate me.

Dragoparados isn't even Typed correctly

although for something throen together in 10 min, I'm not going to blow myself up over it

[honest umbra]

ngl i'd love you

that looks like fodder

i mean it's scary sets

but they all die in like

1-2 hits

did you win with that

[worthy basin]

It was all worth it for screenshots like this

[honest umbra]

real

[worthy basin]

Won a couple games

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/046affdfd05632aa anyways please tear this to bits

oh shit i forgot hazard control

everything but the umbreon/toxapex im keeping i think

[worthy basin]

Molvern typing?

[honest umbra]

fire dragon

[worthy basin]

ok

Tox is mad passive

[honest umbra]

no comment

[worthy basin]

No toxic

no rocks

not even knock off

If reg tox hates taunt, this thing considers the noose

[honest umbra]

I've said it twice that I dont intend to use the tox

please

[nocturne eagle]

A few hours ago, i saw a game where someone got a genesect fusion in random battles
im pretty sure genesect is banned in ou, right?

[honest umbra]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

yeah

but it's random

and stuff slips through

because it's humans

[patent hatch]

They haven’t cleaned out the Ubers mons that people still submitted. I’ve gotten Regigigas and Darkrai before

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/9a74f9ad0f265624 update because I forgor some crucial stuff

[nocturne eagle]

Balanced!

[honest umbra]

the hyper beam is a shit post and will be hyper voice

why?

funny

[patent hatch]

I also feel like we should have some votes to remove some sets or modify them even though they are legal and logical because Sandshrew/Tyrantrum is nowhere near as good as just using sandslash or any actual ground type

[honest umbra]

too many sets to deal with

[nocturne eagle]

(secretly submits shit sets to troll players)

[worthy basin]

Lack of priority is concerning but not a huge deal

[nocturne eagle]

I had to use a clefable/scizor. Special with no stab

excellent set

[patent hatch]

Chandelgon-Z has only 3 moves btw

[honest umbra]

misinput

pretend there's a nasty plot

[worthy basin]

And for the amount of webs being thrown out, you probably need hazard removal if both your sweepers can't deal with them.

[honest umbra]

yall missed the rapid spin

[worthy basin]

On?

[nocturne eagle]

forretress gets explosion

you know what to do

[honest umbra]

bruh

my special is better than my attack

[patent hatch]

Mega-Glalie set but Fairy

[worthy basin]

Especially if one of your mons is running sash

Also ceaseless edge is either completley fucked or banned or whatever H-Samurot's sig move is called

[nocturne eagle]

also, you should run a speed lowering nature instead of an attack lowering nature

[honest umbra]

yeah fair

[worthy basin]

Unless you have physical attacks, lowering attack is better

less confusion damage

[nocturne eagle]

rapid spin

did the calcs for your set

[worthy basin]

Was looking at outdated set

[nocturne eagle]

i changed the nature to relaxed

[honest umbra]

lmao

[nocturne eagle]

+def -spd

[honest umbra]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=z0n3r-ineptgamer-1702351569956 first replay

did not deserve to win

[worthy basin]

What rating is this

[honest umbra]

he's 1074 and im 1268

lmao

[worthy basin]

Fairy rapis spin is interesting

[honest umbra]

hyper beam lmao

[worthy basin]

Another spinner if interested

[honest umbra]

weak to fairy

im already sensitive to fairy tbh dont need help there

[worthy basin]

Yes, but av+intim gives it bulk and it traps ghost

[honest umbra]

I see

still fairy is already an issue for me

[worthy basin]

fair

[honest umbra]

not something im keen on

https://pokepast.es/f070f6eee482cfe6

update

(tiny)

[nocturne eagle]

You could try a fast scarf pokemon with throat chop which stops all of those pesky fairy noiverns

[worthy basin]

Syltress already walls it

Lack of priority is still scary to me, I feel like if your opponenet starts a sweep you don't have a lot of tools to deal with them.

[nocturne eagle]

what gets replaced on the team tho?

[worthy basin]

Especially with Quiver and DD being so prevelant

Not sure, I'm just voicing concerns

Picking up kills and halting sweeps is going to be difficult

That and sun

[nocturne eagle]

I see a potential change here

MIsmag gets more speed and moongeist beam

false

[worthy basin]

Move set diff?

[nocturne eagle]

Is base 100 speed good enough in this meta?

[worthy basin]

I run balance, hell if I know

All my speed control is priority moves

[nocturne eagle]

well the team is very weak to priority and rival boosters

I'd like to see some videos for the fusion meta so I dont have to see another person make a clefable/scizor set with no stab

[worthy basin]

What is that supposed to do?

Also what meta?

[nocturne eagle]

if dex ou

[nocturne eagle]

Quiver Dance, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower

[worthy basin]

Dumbest shit I've ever seen

[nocturne eagle]

Quiver dance S C I Z O R

[worthy basin]

That has nothing to do with not knowing the meta

More to do with not knowing how to play Pokémon is

Also is there any form of solidified meta?

At best there's popular material, but there's so many ways to use that material it's not something you can really account for

[honest umbra]

uh

other than the really particular ones

chandelure/porygon or (noivern or dragonite )/sylveon

or porygon/dragonite

no

it's the wild west

[worthy basin]

or sylveon dragonite

there's too much

[honest umbra]

parenthesis added for clarity

[nocturne eagle]

so far we have boosted extreme speed, boosted boomburst, Doublade spectral thief, and Unaware mons everywhere

[honest umbra]

oh yeah

doublade

fuck them

[worthy basin]

I don't boost

I basically ignore them

[nocturne eagle]

I spectated someone repeatedly hit a sap sipper mon with grass type moves and then used their spectral thief doublade to sweep

[worthy basin]

That's their own fault

[nocturne eagle]

you cant really tell in random battle

spectral thief doublade is the new suprise anti-sweep

[worthy basin]

Playing Fusions is basically the equivalent of having a regular meta where each viable mon has 10 completely differently and uniquely threatening sets. It's too much to account for.

[nocturne eagle]

this is why i use topsyturvy hitmontop

[worthy basin]

The only way to actually create a playable meta game in the regular sense is to vastly trim down the available mons.

Or possibly having the meta operate like a draft with each indivual mon having a point value you have to manage

[nocturne eagle]

Good in theory but i dont think that many would actually play that metagame

[worthy basin]

Therefore you aren't running into a team that has some form of pixalate and boomburt and e speed and on and on

[nocturne eagle]

Toxapex/Umbreon

[worthy basin]

We less have a meta game and more have loose trends

[nocturne eagle]

well thats what happens to a new format when it only is around for a few weeks

[worthy basin]

But the conditions for forming a metagame aren't in our favor

[nocturne eagle]

There havent been any tier changes in 20 days, no bans unbans nothing

[worthy basin]

But there's also no teams

[nocturne eagle]

just joined a random battle game

[worthy basin]

The hell

[nocturne eagle]

???

Ok next time we do a random battles team submission do not let everyone cook

https://play.pokeathlon.com/#battle-gen7ifrandombattle-34967

[worthy basin]

A good way of figuring out whether a meta is forming is if you can point to either a specific team, strategy or at the very least core that is commonly accepted to be effective within the meta.

[nocturne eagle]

you wanna bet it's huge power too?

[worthy basin]

200 on red

[nocturne eagle]

https://play.pokeathlon.com/#battle-gen7ifrandombattle-34969

[honest umbra]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#&player=inept&replay=ineptgamer-shrimptheshrimp-1702352803945

unrelated but this was painful

[worthy basin]

What does manchop do again?

[nocturne eagle]

did they just try to use f.e.a.r. set in infinite fusion???

[worthy basin]

Now way there's an agaron

The quiver in front of gengon was mad greedy

Also to illustrate my Snorscor point

[nocturne eagle]

uh

[fading shadow]

lmao

[worthy basin]

I downloaded not upload

I'm dead

[nocturne eagle]

Just made a team

https://pokepast.es/4627311b4145827f

what do you think?

[worthy basin]

You entire team wants to set up and you lack priority

The right pex kind blows you out

The team lacks fleaxability