Make tool durability more realistic.

[restive sphinx]

Tools should not break while used the intended way. If it does, it's a bad tool. Anything past flint should not lose its durability while being used correctly. Axes and Swords can lose sharpness but they don't break and can be resharpend. It's not even a fun mechanic. It's just a tedious chore that adds no realism or substance.

[indigo pulsar]

An alternative world option where you have to sharpen/maintain your tools without a "blocks broken" durability system would have been neat.

[restive sphinx]

Tbh. Hammers, pickaxes and showels can go without maintnence.

They're basicly indestructable when used correctly

[indigo pulsar]

Hmmm, fair point

[restive sphinx]

Anything that dosen't need to be sharp can last centurys in constant use.

[indigo pulsar]

Then again, a more plausible system would have been neat. I think each block having specific resistances tied to their irl "hardness" values would make more sense

[restive sphinx]

Agreed.

[indigo pulsar]

Like wet mud being easy to dig and using very little durablility, but arid and hard earth being tough, hard to dig and costing more durability per block

[restive sphinx]

Diging any dirt should cost 0

That's what the tool is for

You gota be using shovels real incorrectly to break them.

[indigo pulsar]

Shovels and axes could have sharpness (with shovels only getting a boost when sharp, but not having a malus when having low sharpness), but I'm not sure how other tools can be handled

[restive sphinx]

Hammers are just indestructable. There is nothing that could realisticly brak a hammer

[indigo pulsar]

What if it was the handle that wore down instead or something

lol

The head might not break but the wooden handle eventually will

And it's not like we make shovel handles out of steel pipes often in real life, as far as as I'm aware

[restive sphinx]

Weapons don't lose durability while used aginst animals but lose durability when used aginst monsters since I assume thei're made of metal, and thin stuff is not great for breaking metal.

[indigo pulsar]

I agree with the general idea but it's complicated to set up in a plausible and balanced manner

[restive sphinx]

We do tho.

[restive sphinx]

Don't underestimate handels

[indigo pulsar]

Key word is "often" since most generic shovels are just a piece of steel at the end of a stick

[restive sphinx]

It's quite often tho

50% of my shovels have steel pipes

[indigo pulsar]

I only saw it for smaller trowels so far, even in construction sites

The only time I can recall seeing one entirely made out of metal/alloy is if it's used in a metallurgy-related plant

Anyway, we're getting sidetracked, so I'll take your word for it, lol

[restive sphinx]

I got a lot of experience with tools and handels, if treated. Do not break. If they aren't treated then they rot. I don't know if I used correct english terms.

[indigo pulsar]

The issue is, while the durability system is outdated, it does the job. I think we could start by changing "how much does a block take off from durability" first, instead of upping durability or making indestructible tools

[indigo pulsar]

Yeah, I gotchu. Maintenance to keep it clean so it doesn't rust.

[restive sphinx]

It does not. It's an unfun, unrealistic mechanic. The game would be better off without it.

[indigo pulsar]

Yeah but let's say we get immortal tools. What do we have to take away to make it balanced?

Make ores 95% less common in exchange?

[restive sphinx]

No. Not maintnence. Handels gota be waxed or whatever the word is.

[restive sphinx]

It dosen't need to be balanced. Players need to get somthing out of progressing past flint. Tools are supposed to be an upgrade that leave more time for other stuff.

You'll still blow metal on armour.

That'll break normaly

[stone epoch]

Tools past flint are a huge upgrade - in durability, gathering speeds (and design).
Moreover irl tools under constant use do break. Especially true if they are not modern rust-free steel. The tools in game have good durabilities considering the value you get from them - like digging up a couple hundred or thousand cubic meters of soil in case of shovels. Or processing a giant tree in one swoop in case of an axe (no need to go about cleaing branches, cutting up the tree ... just wood block drops)

As these mechanics are simplified and you do need to constantly sharpen tools and they are very op in some cases, i regard the "unrealistic" breaking of tools as simplfying function of real tools. Therefore i see no need to change this mechanic

[restive sphinx]

You have never used a rusty tool in real life. Even rusty. In fact. Copper tools have no problem with rust at all.

[restive sphinx]

Irl tools in constant use do not break when used correctly. A picaxe used since 1800s would work just as well today.

I have a lot of rusty tools and they're as durable as ever.

My rusty axe chops just fine

[restive sphinx]

You gota be actively trying real hard to break a tool.

It takes centurys for rust to do shit

This mechanic is in no way justifiable.

[mystic mantle]

you clearly feel very strongly about this but at the end of the day durability is here to serve a gameplay service, not a realism one. this is a game first, so that takes priority.

there might be some middle ground to find, but if thats not good enough for you, you just aren't going to get what you want

[restive sphinx]

It also sucks at improving the game. Replacing your tools adds nothing of substance other than wasting your time and resources. It is not realistic and not fun.

[winged dock]

This is honestly such a good idea, I would say though, things should be able to break but you could get the broken tool inorder to remelt (with deminishing returns)

[restive sphinx]

No. In real life tools do not break

A rusty picaxe will last a century of constant use.

[restive sphinx]

Tools are suprisingly durable

[feral ether]

i agree but like the others say this is a game, although with shovels they do not last long enough, it is litrally not worth mking a copper shovel bc it doesn't last long enough. also axes have the same problem, i just make and use the flint tools that are basically free.

other tools arn't so bad but i still think the duribility should be buffed, especially late game tools and all shovels and axes

some of the other games that don't have duarability have more tool variation meaning upgrades make the old ones obsolete; tool upgrades are fewer and slower in vintage story, it is a balance thing.

[restive sphinx]

There is no such thing as a balance in a game about progression. You're supposed to get stronger. The problem is that flint is too balanced with the metal tools.

Tools should be indestructable when used correctly.

[austere basin]

I like the idea of tools lasting longer but I think they should still have a durability

Like you use it and overtime as the durability goes down , your axe become less and less effective to the point where it’s not chopping anymore

Then you need to go sharpen

And that takes a bit of metal off , reducing the total durability

Overtime you will have sharpened the axe so much that it become useless and you have to make another

You can then melt this tool head down with poor returns and then make a new one

So that you don’t just have infinite tools immediately upon your first tool

Blunt things like hammers get bent out of shape quite easily

Especially hammers

I think a better system for tools breaking could also be their handles breaking

And you get the tool head back

[austere basin]

But surely you know this is a terrible game mechanic decision

[restive sphinx]

No. Durability sucks as a mechanic. It provides no fun in any way. Explain to me how does durability make the game better?

[austere basin]

It exists so you have a reason to get another one

Which makes you play the game more

And mine more

Which is fun

[restive sphinx]

That's not fun. That's a repetitive annoying chore

[austere basin]

Repetition Is surprising quite realistic

[restive sphinx]

I am sorrounded by idiots.

[austere basin]

why should tools be indestructible

[restive sphinx]

Games are supposed to be fun.

[austere basin]

How does that make the game better

[austere basin]

I enjoy mining

[restive sphinx]

Cuz in real life they are

[austere basin]

If I had to mine less

That would suck

[restive sphinx]

You can focus on other projects more

[austere basin]

Ppl aren’t stupid they just have different opinions than you

This is not objective

This is preference

Calm down

[restive sphinx]

Get out of here. Go play cookie clicker. We don't like your kind here.

[austere basin]

What if I wanted to do both

[austere basin]

Lmao

This must be bait

Your just upset for no reason now

[restive sphinx]

There are slurs for your kind

[austere basin]

I thought my suggestion was rather good

Finds a good middle ground

[restive sphinx]

You're the ones ruining gaming

[austere basin]

That’s true

Such a good point you raise

Oh how much better life would be if nothing broke !!!!!

[restive sphinx]

I suggest you play a clicker game

[austere basin]

Will do

You should go fishing

[restive sphinx]

I am not that type of player

[austere basin]

No irl

[restive sphinx]

I want to build practical projects

I want to engadge with new mechanics

[austere basin]

Me too !

[restive sphinx]

Then why do you wabt to keep making the same tools over and over?

You can't fathom an apple.

[austere basin]

Why are these two things mutually exclusive

I can just do both

Did you even read what I wrote ):

You’re breaking my heart

[restive sphinx]

I did idiot. It's stupit. Sharpening does not reduce a tool at any significant rate

It'll take centurys

[austere basin]

Yeh but since we don’t play the game for centuries then I think the time span should be appropriately reduced

[restive sphinx]

No cuz realisticly you'd never have to deal with it. Should we make it so everything decays eventualy into iron cuz irl in everything will decay into iron in like 10⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹⁹ years. And lets apropriatly reduce it to 10.

[austere basin]

Well nah obvs iron would last way longer

I was more talking copper and bronze

[restive sphinx]

I was making an example of your logic. I said decay into iron. All matter eventualy becomes iron

[austere basin]

That seems a bit silly doesn’t it

I think your just being silly

[restive sphinx]

That's the same as your logic.

[austere basin]

Wasn’t my intention

[restive sphinx]

Maby things that the player wouldn't have to deal with in a reasonable timeframe shouldn't be features. Crazy.

[austere basin]

Keep getting mad it’ll definitely improve your suggestions chances 🙊

[restive sphinx]

It's hard not to when people like you exist.

[restive sphinx]

Gun and ball gamers got more creativity than you

[feral ether]

at this point this turned from a reasonable suggestion thread to a bait thread for me

copper tools shouldn't last very long, they are balanced fine how they are (except axes and shovels IMO)
on the other end, steel tools should definitelly last 100x longer then they do already

i think durability exists to push you to upgrade your tools

if copper lasted forever i would find the game less fun

[mystic mantle]

when the suggestion becomes a demand and anyone who doesnt agree gets called names, at what point should the thread be locked?

if you hate durability that much, you could definitely make a mod that gives every tool you want like 99999999 durability, effectively removing it

[mystic mantle]

i could also give a more clear reason why durability is in the game, but i just feel like thats not what you really want

[austere basin]

On another durability note building blocks should def not last perfectly forever

I wanna see shit decay

[restive sphinx]

It's just that that guy unironicaly said that he enjoyed mining. I understand that some people may not see things my way. But if you unironicaly think mining is a fun activity.

[restive sphinx]

Ok this is an unacceptable opinion.

[restive sphinx]

All metal tools should last longer

The player should have more time for experimentation rather than upkeep

[austere basin]

I can def agree with that

[restive sphinx]

If minecraft didn't have mending nobody would progress past diamonds or even iron.

Cuz it wouldn't be worth it

[austere basin]

I mean I don’t play mine craft any more but I hated mending personally

Was nice sometimes but on econ server it always ruined it

[mystic mantle]

people dont use mending to save their tools, they do it to save their enchantments

[restive sphinx]

Way too many players put mending on as a first enchant

[austere basin]

Why ? Don’t you think wood should slowly decay when it’s rained on time and time again , this could provide reasons to coat wood with oils or paint or be rendered

Or a reason to lime wash stone

[restive sphinx]

Cuz construction is expensive enough

[austere basin]

Yeh but I thought you like realism

[restive sphinx]

I don't. Gameplay first.

It's just that tool durability is unjustifiable in any way

[austere basin]

But your your reasoning for that is realism

Can I ask why you don’t play in creative

[restive sphinx]

• unfun

[austere basin]

What about survival do u like

[austere basin]

I’m not saying the blocks would break

But they would age

[restive sphinx]

Coming over obstacles in creative ways

[austere basin]

I think aging is pretty

And you should have to put effort in to keep your builds looking new

Imo

[restive sphinx]

This will just turn the game into a progressionless loop of maintnence

[austere basin]

Or you can accept the fact that things age

Or build things out of more durable materials

[restive sphinx]

No.

[austere basin]

You crack me up

[fallow snow]

I know this is bait, but really? I have a chisel from my dad that is 4 inches shorter than when it started from sharpening. Sharpening isn't just touching up edges, it is also getting rid of chips from usage, which happen quite frequently.

(Im not gonna respond after because this is an obvious bait post)

[restive sphinx]

Ur bad at sharpening

[fallow snow]

It takes a while, and realistically it wouldn't happen in the timescale of a game, but if it was all about realism we would all die of dysentery

[austere basin]

I’m a chef and use my knife almost every day therefore I need to sharpen a tiny bit every day and a big sharpen once a month or so

The ppl at the shop always warn you not to sharpen too much or you’ll lose inches off your knife

Very easy to do with a steel like white steel which is prone to chipping

[restive sphinx]

But not with copper and iron

[austere basin]

what about with uranium ?

[restive sphinx]

Crunchy crystsls 🤤

[frosty nymph]

I would say that diminishing mining speed as durability wears down would meet my approval.

Then take the item to a grindstone to sharpen it (makes more sense than the crit chance thing weapons have, could just replace that and have weapons start at less than max damage upon forging). Grinding wears down the durability total. So over time, the tools will wear out faster, and theres still a long term incentive to replace tools. But its squishier. Not a "tool broke, replacement non-negotiable" But more. "efficiency at 70%, probably worth a visit to the shop at this point. Gonna want a fresh replacement soon."

Hammers would be excluded from this process because as stated, no edge, no loss. Granted that leaves a weird dichotomy where hammers do the insta-break thing when durability wears out while every other tool has this squishy maintenance process...

[mystic mantle]

yeah i think something like that could really work

[austere basin]

yeh similar to what i said

i was called an idiot lmao

[modern valley]

I agree with the base idea, but yeah person who made this you went about this in such a bad way man I'm sorry I'm not on your side because I agree some tool durability is too low(like with shovels and axes feeling like they have too little durability as mentioned before by somebody), but goodness gracious

[frosty nymph]

Thats, kinda arrogant and closed minded. Its a game, not a simulation. More immersion is great, but we dont really need justification to be in an imperfect middle ground.

[modern valley]

I normally just play with increased tool durability, toolsmith is great but I dislike early game with it because sharpening stones are kinda luck based(been in worlds where I could not find any kind of hard stone material for a while on the surface)

Seriously like

150% tool durability may work nicely?

I play with 125% usually

[normal elk]

Not true, strongest material we got in game is low quality steel... Which wears out pretty fast and is not even comparable to the high quality tool steels modern tools are made of

And that's like... The highest tier tools.

In the game

Most commonly you will use bronze or iron tools which are pretty crap realistically

Hell iron is worse than bronze actually idk why it's better than bronze in the game

[restive sphinx]

You have never used copper or bronze. These materials are better than steel infact because they form a protective oxide layer that prevents further oxydation.

[normal elk]

Lmao

I've extensively studied metallurgy

Copper is soft as fuck

If we're doing realistically you're barely going to break anything with copper tools

And copper does oxidize pretty fast in humidity so does bronze

[restive sphinx]

Yet any kind of hamner or pickaxe is very hard to break.

Don't underestimate tools

[normal elk]

Geometry...

We break rocks with pickaxes

Not mallets

[restive sphinx]

The handels rot beffore the metal breaks

[normal elk]

You will NEVER break through for example quartzite rock with a copper pickaxe

[restive sphinx]

Quartz is brittle

[normal elk]

...

Bro you're like 12

Or severely uneducated

[normal elk]

xD

xD

xD

[proper ether]

i dont see why this tool durability rework idea is so hated. exactly how is the current system fun or realistic? a metal hoe shouldn't just evaporate after a few in game hours of use

[restive sphinx]

Real

[normal elk]

It's not fun but it's also uh, impossible to make it realistic anyways so I'd just make it mechanically balanced instead

You have any idea how completely impossible for a single person to break all that amount of rock?

Nigh impossible

[restive sphinx]

But a game needs to be fun firstly.

[normal elk]

So it needs to be unrealistic here

[restive sphinx]

Fun first

[normal elk]

You're underaged man

[restive sphinx]

Nope

[normal elk]

I can tell it from your behavior, the very low reading comprehension

[proper ether]

it doesn't "need" to be anything. the game balance doesnt even have to change all that much for it to be significantly more fun and less restrictive

[restive sphinx]

What do you mean by low reading comprehesion. Give an example.

[normal elk]

I told you that you can't fucking break QUARTZITE rock with copper tools and you show me "quartz is brittle" Google search

XD

Quartzite is literally among the toughest rocks

[proper ether]

this is not a very constructive conversation

[restive sphinx]

It's hard. But brittle

[normal elk]

Omfg...

[mystic mantle]

quartzite /=/ quartz

[normal elk]

I'm out

[restive sphinx]

How is that even relavant? I clearly stated that tools don't break when used correctly. Striking copper aginst quarts is not a correct usage case.

[normal elk]

FYI you can't legally be on discord underaged

[restive sphinx]

I'm not.

[austere basin]

I think almost everyone agrees that the system should be changed to make tools last longer. Just not last forever or basically forever. I think it’s just more the way the conversation had turned out is why it’s so heated (:

[restive sphinx]

Geting called underaged by people who prob don't even know what a manual looks like. 😭

[proper ether]

ah, that explains the 238 replies lol

[austere basin]

I think when he said quartz he was referring to the rock Cus idk about u but I commonly refer to quartzite and quartz

[restive sphinx]

There was one genuen retard and now everyone instantly assumes it's a bad faith argument.

[austere basin]

Hey man don’t call people that

That’s why they get upset

[mystic mantle]

yeah you see thats the issue

[normal elk]

Wait so you're really not underaged? American bychance?

[mystic mantle]

a suggestion that has some merit (a lot of people are on board with increased durability, getting something back from broken tools, more maintenance on tools in exchange for longer shelf life) overall more interesting mechanics, but they all get shut down instantly with "durability is unrealistic, i would know i have a pickaxe from the neolithic era" and then you get told to explode

[restive sphinx]

Oh my god. It's the fuckung least insulting insult ever.

[queen pelican]

Whats wild is I actually recognize that Pelilial Whitesnake name from somewhere else, that I banned them from LOL

[austere basin]

Nah it’s kinda dated insult

[restive sphinx]

No. European.

[austere basin]

But no one needs to insult each other

It’s fkn game suggestion

[restive sphinx]

That guy said he enjoyed mining and wanted more of it.

[proper ether]

dude, chill 😭

[austere basin]

What

No I said I didn’t want it to disappear

Cus you want immortal tools bro

[restive sphinx]

The guy I called retarded wanted more mining.

[normal elk]

Strawman

[proper ether]

there is a middle ground here. changing how durability works doesnt have to make tools immortal

[austere basin]

That’s his opinion

[normal elk]

Except it's not

[austere basin]

I agree and ir you go back several ppl have made a middle ground !!

And he calls them dumb

[normal elk]

This guy's got a tiny brain if I'm gonna be honest lol he doesn't know any metallurgy or geology and dares talk about it

[austere basin]

Or stupid

[proper ether]

im glad!

[proper ether]

i am less glad!

[restive sphinx]

Armour is still a massive sink.

[austere basin]

Wdym by sink

[restive sphinx]

It's not a strawman when somone actualy said it.

[austere basin]

Like resource drain

[restive sphinx]

Yes

[austere basin]

If you think there’s not enough resources I have to say that’s a you issue , if you find an iron vein you have more than enough iron for a full play through

Unless you play your world for like 10 years idk

[restive sphinx]

I didn't say that. I said that mining won't be unessesary with immortal tools cuz armour is still a massive sink.

[restive sphinx]

I know a decent amount.

Altough I did not know quarts is so copper resistant

[mystic mantle]

quartzite, not quartz

[austere basin]

That’s what they mean prob …

[restive sphinx]

Same thing.

[mystic mantle]

well unfortunately they are different things

you ignorantly stating otherwise does not change real geology unfortunately :/

[austere basin]

Yes they are but it’s not necessary to delineate

Is it ?

[restive sphinx]

Sorry. I have a habit of calling diffrent things same things. An inside joke.

[austere basin]

Idk maybe it is

[restive sphinx]

But hammers should definetly be indestructable.

How tf can one even break a hammer?

[normal elk]

Dunning krueger

[mystic mantle]

okay, maybe in theory indestructible hammers could work. how do you make everything above a copper hammer have a functional use case?

its not like they're very tedious to make, you can use molds

[restive sphinx]

No. I have decent amount of proper education on the topic

[normal elk]

xD

This guy's like those drunk drivers the police stops and asks if they're drunk and they say some silly shit

[restive sphinx]

Propably make them nessesary for harder metals.

[restive sphinx]

I do. Ask me a decent level question.

[austere basin]

I remember trying to hammer a nail in with a copper hammer once , didn’t work out so well

[normal elk]

You have 3 seconds to answer because more time means you will just google it

What's Young's modulus

[restive sphinx]

What nail?

[austere basin]

Was an iron one so obvs harder

[restive sphinx]

Don't know

[normal elk]

Of course you don't

[austere basin]

But I was also knocking on wood and it still deformed it

[restive sphinx]

I did not study it in english

[mystic mantle]

okay, so instead of higher hammer tiers having a higher durability and otherwise being interchangable, you suggest making all hammers have infinite durability, but you need higher tier hammers for progression

i don't personally think thats a good idea but it has some merits

[austere basin]

I just think that indestructible tools are bad for multiplayer settings especially if you wanna trade, since population doesn’t grow to provide consistent new revenue a durability system provides a reason to go get another one

But yeh should def last longer

[restive sphinx]

But most people play single player.

[austere basin]

Hmmm is that true

Idk

I don’t play single player

[restive sphinx]

And there is still armour and weapons.

[mystic mantle]

keep in mind the lack of durability also requires looking at the quenching system again, which JUST got added

[austere basin]

Anymore

[austere basin]

I feel many weapons by your logic should not break

Eg war hammer

Or axe

They just blunt

I guess a sword could shatter in rare cases

[restive sphinx]

Swords should when used aginst rust monsters since it's striking thin metal aginst metal.

[austere basin]

But would be fkn hard to do

[mystic mantle]

i think durability still makes the most sense for this game, it just needs some top ups. higher durability is one of the positive feedback mechanics for a player to upgrade their tools, they get more worth out of them

i think things should overall have a higher durability, and sharp weapons should require...well, sharpening

it makes more sense and would feel more rewarding to maintain longer lasting weapons

[austere basin]

If my copper lasted forever I don’t think I’d ever upgrade

[mystic mantle]

and tools of course

[queen pelican]

I always look at those tool mods that trade durability for longevity or effectiveness when you fix them. BUt also definitely like the idea of resharpening a tool, but maybe at cost of durability tos EVENTUALLY you will need to replace it.
Id love to be able to sit at a whetstone and sharpen weapons that would be cool.

[mystic mantle]

put in the effort to craft your hammer by hand instead of a mold, and then temper and quench it? yeah, make that sucker last a LONG LONG time, but if you just pour it out into a mold and slap it on a stick? you get a season tops

oh yeah even for the sharp ones they would still have some form of durability mechanic

i wouldnt even inherently be against some sort of repair mechanic, to re-add durability

especially if we're putting a lot of effort into tools with quenching and stuff

but that is less realistic

[restive sphinx]

Blacksmith hammers last generations.

[tough igloo]

Why are we even arguing about whether or not it's realistic? It doesn't matter. This is a video game. The devs themselves say, on the website:

"Vintage Story is heavily inspired by natural processes of the real world and brings them into the game in a fun and enjoyable way."

The gameplay purpose for tools breaking is to put a drain on your resources, in a simple and easy way for the player to understand. Complicating the process may make it more realistic, yes, and may make for a fun mod, also yes, but it probably wouldn't be a good fit for the vanilla game that's already very complicated for newer players to get a hang of. There's a trade-off there that I find not worth it that's entirely avoided by it just being an optional mod.

If there was no proper resource drain, players would lose a reason to continue reaching for better tools. Making handles break makes the game a handle smithing simulator, as opposed to an interesting quick mini game you try to optimize for each tool. After hundreds of hours, I still enjoy banging out a set of tools on the anvil in the middle of the night.

[queen pelican]

have to use fresh items to repair with etc.

[mystic mantle]

is this genuinely all you respond with? do you realise why no one is taking you seriously yet?

[austere basin]

Lmao I’ve never even read this

[restive sphinx]

There should be resource drains that aren't just upkeep.

[mystic mantle]

but yes thats why i think durability should stay mostly functional as is, it provides good feedback to the player and you shouldnt be required to put in effort to get a functioning tool.

[proper ether]

at this point yall should just make a new thread

[mystic mantle]

however i think if you put in the effort by choice to temper and quench your tools, you should get good worth out of them

[austere basin]

I think this thread should be deleted

It’s a cancer

Is there someone we can link to do that

[mystic mantle]

i've resisted the urge to ping a mod multiple times...

[restive sphinx]

Maby I can

[austere basin]

Yeh it’s for the best