Food drain

[fallen valley]

Time to look into animal husbandry! Did you know you could farm hares for meat?

A single good weight hare is 2 to 3 redmeat!

[barren grotto]

i’m a beginner, i’ve tried farming some turnips but they kept getting devoured by the hares

i think im still at the pottery age

is there a easier way to gather meats?

[fallen valley]

All you'll need is a reed basket trap

[barren grotto]

i’ve had my fair share of being chased by hogs

[barren grotto]

a basket trap?

[fallen valley]

Make a reed chest, then craft it with a stick to the side

There you have it

[barren grotto]

ohh

and how do i get to lure in the hares?

actually, do i have to be quick in killing them

[fallen valley]

Then find your target - a hare or a chicken, put the trap close to them and bait it with something they would eat - grains fpr chickens, veggies for hares

then wait and be ready to pick the trap up, and do note that a filled trap goes into the backpack slot

[fallen valley]

You don't kill them if you need them trapped alive

It usually takes them a little bit to recognize the food nearby - about a minute or so

stealth is your friend here

[barren grotto]

backpack slot?

wait so like

they become an item inside the chest trap?

how interesting

so i’m able to hold the hares then place them somewhere i can harvest em

[fallen valley]

You put them in a fence and feed them veggies

Then they start multiplying

[barren grotto]

how long does it take for them to multiply??

[fallen valley]

Uuuh... good question. I don't remember.

But I remember they're pretty fast, leagues faster than sheep or pigs

I know a chicken takes about two weeks from egg to adult

[barren grotto]

awh

looks like i’ll have to start getting alone with the hogs before then

thanks for the advice, i’ll probably start doing it once i have a steady supply of resources

[median forum]

build a fence around your crops. you can make a simple fence with just some sticks and a knife

[fallen valley]

Oh by the way, the fields are a great animal bait. You can dig a 2 block deep trench around the fields and use it as free meat delivery!

up to you if they're livestock or dinner

[lofty jungle]

@gritty barn just to confirm, we now know this satiety is intended but is there a bug effecting the multiplayer game settings for hunger rate also?

A lot of people said Greenleaf attempted to bring satiety drain down but it made things worse

[severe jewel]

Hold on a minute, so it's intended that I lose 50% of my food bar just going into the basement and waiting for a couple batches of bread to cook in the oven? Not blackguard and nothing in my off hand. And it's middle of June. If someone thinks this is how many calories average person needs in a day, that someone must be huge.

[crystal pelican]

Its definitely a balancing issue

[desert parrot]

It will just take some tweaking after all those bugs were fixed. In general though given the infinite size of the map, overly penalizing characters for traversing that map quickly (sprinting) until an Elk, which will hours of gameplay to get in a save file, will feel bad. I don't sprint out of recklessness, I sprint because I want to do more things in the game in a single play session.

Deeply appreciate the transparency and code snippits, curious where this will lead.

[twin jetty]

So, the TLDR here is that the intended amount of food for a character to eat is about 200kg per day to avoid starving. But wait, if you just don't sprint in the game where there are millions of dangers that require you sprint constantly, you can maybe get by on only 100kg of food per day!!! Absolute insanity, should never have even seen an rc, let alone a stable release.

[severe jewel]

Hey, if you didn't want to dedicate 80% of your inventory space to food supplies are you even playing a survival game? Also it's clearly not unbalanced that at the same time you are restricted in how much food you could grow because somehow grains in this world don't work as seeds.

[gritty barn]

The crops should only grow slower when it's cold or you don't give them enough sunlight. They are otherwise adjusted to grow at the same speed.

[gritty barn]

Just put a fence around the farm and that should solve the animal problem.

[gritty barn]

With hares it's something like 5 days and you can breed them something like every 10 days. So you can breed a generation 10 of hares (gen 10 is when animals stop running from you or becoming aggressive to you) pretty quickly.

[severe jewel]

Hares do seem to be more agressive in this update, I had to put up one of the makeshift fences to keep them away.

[gritty barn]

Nobody has given me any actual evidence of a problem in multiplayer and when remilia tested on a server she got the expected numbers you get in single player.

[severe jewel]

Also is it expected that there are so few fish in the ponds, I only saw 3 so far and I live next to a lake, the promo vids showed dozens of fishes.

[gritty barn]

If you sit completely still (no pressing movement keys, jump, or left or right click) for 3 seconds you will start using only 2.4 sat every 10 seconds or roughly 28.8 sat per in-game hour meaning you'd have 52 in-game hours from full bar to empty bar. It's about 1/4 that long or 6.5 IRL minutes if you're moving.

And in fact every test I did on 1.21 before the fix was the same.

This is if you're not healing.

[gritty barn]

The code that allowed animals to actually eat crops was broken in 1.19 and I fixed it for 1.22, so that's why suddenly animals are eating crops again.

[gritty barn]

That was just a demonstration of all the kinds. I do believe that sounds about average for actual generation. You can get more from fishing with some bait, as it were. The game will generate them biting your hook.

[severe jewel]

Am I supposed to be healing? Cuz I've not seen my hp bar going up unless I sleep or use a healing item. If it is it's incredibly slow.

[hollow raptor]

also a funny option- trap a fox in your field (or just don't have any grassy soil blocks inside the fencing, but a fox is pretty reliable protection if you like the look)

native health regen is verry slow

[gritty barn]

The healing is at a rate of 0.01 per second, so it's only noticeable that you're gaining health every 10 seconds when you gain a full 0.1 HP.

[severe jewel]

And how much of a food drain does it apply?

[hollow raptor]

#1496386515578650696 message

oop correction, #1496386515578650696 message this one

[gritty barn]

Not the code for healing, lol.

[hollow raptor]

yeah, bit further down XD

[gritty barn]

There's a field that sets how much sat used per 1HP restored, which is set to 150 sat.

So on default settings it's roughly 1.5 sat a second.

[severe jewel]

Ok, yeah it adds up, with having a torch in the off hand, and sprinting and getting damaged in any way it would drain like 10sat per second or something.

That means your whole food bar would be gone in something like 3 minutes.

[lofty jungle]

right so server settings should have worked, thanks Pizza!

[dim acorn]

oh so requiring way more food was an intentional nerf and not just a bugfix?

[gritty barn]

No, it was almost entirely bug fixes.

Put simply, you'd expect a player to take a hunger tick every 10 seconds, but certain bugs could make that not happen as often and it would just discard everything over 10 seconds, and in some cases in particular it would completely reset the counter back to 0 and discard the 10 seconds.

So instead of healing being an additional cost in addition to hunger it would sometimes replace hunger on accident.

Once the bug was fixed it just turns out that's a lot more hunger than people are used to.

[dim acorn]

yeah, for sure

[gritty barn]

I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, a lot of people are saying the game simply isn't fun for them anymore, but on the other hand it's not that hard to just not sprint if you're walking around the house or doing something like climbing a mountain, and being careful to avoid most damage also makes sense from a gameplay standpoint...

[pastel knoll]

im the kind of sadist that played previous versions with increased hunger rate and blackguard cause i felt like food was too easy lmao

i think part of it is ppl coming in with the expectation of sprinting everywhere being the norm like it is in other games

[hollow raptor]

consider base desire to 'if fast is available, wanna go fast', and the sheer distance needed to travel sometimes before snagging an elk- it's pretty common for folks to not engage the story at all before getting up to full bronze age or even iron too

after elk's acquired, long term travel drain's a fairly moot point tho

[dim acorn]

yeah

[twin jetty]

This is a silly take. Have you ever eaten 100-200 KILOGRAMS of food in a day?

[dim acorn]

will just take some adjusting and appropriate planting for the increased hunger rate
(luckily I planted quite a bit more than I needed going into fall, so hopefully I won't starve xD)

[twin jetty]

Again, 100-200 KILOGRAMS of food PER DAY is completely absurd. Anyone defending this rate is absurd.

[pastel knoll]

i'm not a 8 foot tall magical being carrying an entire mountain's worth of stone around in my backpack so idk

[hollow raptor]

taking 'I could eat a whole deer' to the next level

[twin jetty]

1 for breakfast, 1 for lunch, and 1 for dinner... and probably another for a snack through the day.

[gritty barn]

How are you calculating this number?

[twin jetty]

Average weight of a deer and how many it takes to eat and not starve per in game day.

[gritty barn]

I don't think the intention is that you're getting all the meat off of the deer.

I suppose my question then is, would it also solve the problem if animals dropped more meat and maybe crops dropped a little more food on average?

[twin jetty]

No, because we're spending more than half the play time just cooking. And the average yield from a deer looks to be about 25kg, so 75+ kg of food per day, not much better.

[hollow raptor]

I've been getting.. 12-14ish redmeat off non-wintering adult deer of most types, which feels pretty fair there at least

[severe jewel]

I think the big issue here is, with the changes to the berries, the food problem hits you the hardest in very early game, when you have little to no way of defending yourself against many, many threats in the world, and no food supplies to fall back on.

Once you get a proper farm going it just becomes tedious because you have to cook a lot, but it's not really a danger.

[gritty barn]

I remember in a 1.19 world we easily had so much food there were shelves and shelves of the stuff with just one person cooking occasionally. Enough for at the time like 4 or 5 people to eat just fine. Theoretically is this only a problem in early game or are you saying it's worse than that?

[twin jetty]

We're completing our terminus. I have an elk and a ship. The food grind is still extreme vs what it was in 1.21. And people were already constantly complaining about food in 1.21. I was fine in 1.21, this isn't fine.

[hollow raptor]

mmm I would not say it's related to berries all that much honestly, like yeah, they're slower to get on average, but if you run for clay, get a kiln going asap, and start meal making by day 2 or 3, it still feels punishing

[severe jewel]

It just adds to the issue. You can't always rush the clay because you are too busy foraging so you won't starve. I mean you can strategically let yourself starve but I don't think that's the best gameplay loop, trading death for progress, it's unsatisfying.

[gritty barn]

So, an interesting data point, someone who plays on Wilderness Survival and never bothered cooking meals much has told me specifically that the game doesn't feel meaningfully different after the fixes.

But she also plays permadeath so has always been careful about avoiding injury and healing.

[twin jetty]

But yes, the early game changes made the early game that much worse, and that was already my biggest complaint about food. Early game was already debatably too hard, and then it became too easy once the first crops came in. Now, we have a massive field and we're constantly out of food. This lasted an IRL* day. I started this as a bug report because it never even crossed my mind that this could be intentional.

[hollow raptor]

this might be a playstyle difference, my smol group of survivors piled our foraged berries, grains, etc together and immediately put them into meals, no roving too far and eating the forage while on foot, if you're solo that part def might be a bit harder

[twin jetty]

I am not solo, We're a group of people with a lot of hours into this game.

[hollow raptor]

responding more to samoja12 there

[severe jewel]

It really depends a lot on how quickly you can find clay too. At least for the early game. There were times I walked right past 2 or 3 clay spots because they blend in quite well, especially if you are desperately trying to find that next few mushooms so you won't start going in the red.

[amber spruce]

I haven't been struggling with food in my singleplayer world as a blackguard, and I pretty much sprint everywhere. The new way to forage is much more satisfying than it was previously: instead of just grabbing two stacks of berries and being done, you have to grab a little of everything. I never even bothered picking up mushrooms before 1.22. The large wild grains make getting early game grains easier. It's much more engaging and required me to change my mindset about foraging.

[gritty barn]

What's fascinating is that I've heard both "multiplayer makes the early game harder" and "multiplayer makes hunger easier" variably.

[lofty jungle]

Have you updated your game?

[amber spruce]

To 1.22? Yeah.

[hollow raptor]

I mean, it's both - we got meal making down as a top priority, but then also were still starving, which is why I've been mulling over this so much

[dim acorn]

both are true tbh

[amber spruce]

I feel like with the grain changes too people aren't planting enough. I accounted for it with my early game farm and more than doubled the size of it.

[dim acorn]

I updated my existing world to 1.22 in the fall
...so won't feel the grain nerfs until next year xD

[lofty jungle]

This issue has nothing to do with nutrition.

So the food stuff can go straight out the window as far as I'm concerned

hunger is draining too fast

[severe jewel]

I always overproduce food like mad, but the issue here is the seeds. you would have to forage pretty far to get enough seeds for such a big farm, especially for more than one person.

[lofty jungle]

it's really annoying to keep jumping back and forth about the food

[hollow raptor]

it does! the different forms of nutrition are considered individually, they contribute to hunger drain overall

[lofty jungle]

It doesn't have anything to do with our complaint.

[twin jetty]

Yeah, I'm hardly playing the game. The game has just become a "food prep" sim for far too much of the time.

[gritty barn]

Yeah, the intention is that on a new world you can play identically as far as grain goes but you just need twice as much space for your grain field.

[lofty jungle]

You can spawn fresh in a multiplayer server and experience this, food is irrelevant at that moment - you have not eaten.

[gritty barn]

The changes to grain:

• Half as much grain drops when harvested
• 2.5 times as much grain spawns in the world

[twin jetty]

But that's not anyone's experience. First crops take a relatively long time, and almost every single person was complaining about this hunger drain issue long before the first crops could have come in.

[gritty barn]

The number of seeds each plant drops is the same, so it's actually designed that you will get as much grain from foraging as before and twice as many seeds.

[lofty jungle]

Feel this thread just constantly gets derailed

[amber spruce]

This just isn't my experience. Making two crocks of food in singleplayer lasts me a couple of days, especially if I forage while out in the wilds.

[lofty jungle]

over and over again the narrative points towards nutrition, this is a non factor for me, my friends and all the other people I've spoken to

[gritty barn]

Technically making it so that the meal delay lasts longer could also help the situation.

[lofty jungle]

I experienced this drain from spawn

[gritty barn]

You have to realize that this is a complex system built from like 20 parts and that theoretically this is how hunger is supposed to work so the question becomes "if this feels like too much what values have to be tweaked?"

[severe jewel]

There's another issue early game however, until you get copper you are dependant on naturally spawning water sources, that limits how big your farms can be. I use water source blocks as efficiently as they can be (1 water source block in the middle of 8 field blocks) but still making a large enough field would mean spreading your base much wider.

[gritty barn]

Can you show me proof that at spawn you were draining hunger faster than in 1.21? I tested this yesterday for hours in both versions and it was identical unless I was damaged.

Although in fairness that was without putting anything in my offhand and I wasn't a blackguard.

[lofty jungle]

I'm only in Greenleaf and cannot respawn with full everything atp

[amber spruce]

This isn't a bug report thread anymore, this is a suggestion thread I think

[hollow raptor]

it can be both XD tis a discussion all around really

[twin jetty]

This would go a long way, but as xr pointed out, it's also an issue right from spawn, so the drain values themselves would need tweaked, in my opinion. I don't think food needs to become a non-issue, I really thought the late game food was too easy before.

Anyway, ship ride over, back to hunting...

[severe jewel]

Some people on reddit have reported that the offhand item wasn't being registered properly, that is they still had off hand drain even when they removed the item. I experienced a few issues with the inventory myself this patch (ghost items preventing crafting) so it wouldn't surprise me.

[gritty barn]

So, for a simple explanation, you'd expect that every time you heal naturally it uses extra satiety.

It should stack.

[lofty jungle]

I play commoner, nothing in inventory btw

[gritty barn]

Before there was a bug that made healing cancel sprinting always and regular hunger if you'd recently eaten a meal.

So you could take damage and then sprint for free.

[lofty jungle]

How I see it atp, if the drain issue is resolved in multiplayer settings I have no more complaint

[gritty barn]

So the question now becomes, how do you fix the issue people are having which is just "sprinting and injury are a lot more punishing than people realized due to the bug".

[lofty jungle]

Just wanna play and have fun

[gritty barn]

I'd suggest for now that everyone who feels like it's too harsh just turn the hunger rate down to 50% for 1.22.0. I don't know what can and will be done because it's not the kind of decision I get to make.

It wasn't clear that the bug was making this big of a difference or it likely wouldn't have been fixed when it was.

[twin jetty]

Well, that is the other issue. We tried that on GL and it was worse, which is a difference from single player.

[gritty barn]

Worse how?

You set the hunger rate and restarted the server and it took more food?

[twin jetty]

My hunger bar looked like a top fuel dragster's fuel tank.... haha

[gritty barn]

What did you set the hunger rate to?

You should have set it to 0.5 to get 50%.

[lofty jungle]

that's what I mentioned earlier, if it's not a bug then Greenleaf can just resolve it

[gritty barn]

In code 1 is 100%, generally speaking.

1/2 is 50% and all.

[twin jetty]

I believe it was set to 0.5x, but I'm not part of the GL admin team.

The admin had to request an emergency restart from the server owner to revert the change because we were all about to drop like flies.

[gritty barn]

It needs to be just "0.5" for that to work.

Likely they set the setting incorrectly.

[lofty jungle]

I thought this too

[severe jewel]

Here's my back of the napkin calculation, 2.4 drain from sprinting+1.6 from damage+2.4 normal drain, add 20% from off hand item, that's around 7.5, if I got all those numbers right, which I'm not sure I did, that's 450 drain per real world minute. Heaftiest meal most of us make is hefty meat stew that restores a little under 1000 sat. That means you would need on average one such meal once every 2.5 minutes. In game day is IIRC 24 minutes by default. Let's say you spend 10 of those minutes at your shelter doing nothing or sleeping. That's 14 hours per day. It means you would need 5.6 hefty meals per day to keep up with that kind of drain.

[gritty barn]

So you'd type in /worldconfig playerHungerSpeed 0.5 and restart the server.

[hollow raptor]

yeah .65 was about right for my server, gives folks enough time to putter around doing whatever calls to them for a bit before they gotta come back in and snag food, though only one of them habitually sprints everywhere and they were the one suffering the most, which lines up with everything here

[jolly flicker]

This is insane

[gritty barn]

Regen ticks every second and hunger ticks once every 10 seconds. To normalize the values it's either 15 sat for health or 0.96 + 2.4 for hunger when sprinting, depending on if you want per second or per 10 seconds.

If you're sprinting for 10 seconds while injured it will cost 15 + 9.6 + 24.

So, you can immediately see why sprinting around your base and being injured are very bad for hunger.

[jolly flicker]

I’ve done nothing but collect food all day only ran when needed

[gritty barn]

Oh and if you're completely still the hunger rate goes down 25% so if you're not moving and not holding ctrl hunger becomes just 2.4 per 10 seconds.

So healing an injury while still would be just 17.4 per 10 seconds.

[severe jewel]

Admittedly in my case the fact I'm running butchery and thirst mods complicates things, but I was doing fine before.

[pastel knoll]

there has to be something going on with yall... i'm playing a single player game in v.22 and not eating that much

[jolly flicker]

I’m eating more than a grizzly bear in 1 day

[gritty barn]

Holding sprint and standing still counts for this.

I will for sure fix that bug.

[pastel knoll]

i am not sprinting in place which is likely part of it

[gritty barn]

It adds +6 sat drain.

Or, well, if you're completely still, which requires 3 seconds to kick in.

So if you're sprinting in place you're still incurring +24 until 3 seconds pass.

With that changed so it only counts if you're pressing sprint and a directional button I imagine that will help somewhat.

[hollow raptor]

that and sometimes the offhand drain not updating properly when taking things in and out, though the various ctrl+shifting one does when organizing and doing things just around their base could be contributing

[gritty barn]

Yeah the offhand thing is weird and I have zero idea why it happens. I'd imagine that bug needs to be fixed as well as I'd like it if offhand drain only counts if you have something in your main hand.

[hollow raptor]

doesn't feel like it should be that bad on average though

actually, offhand with nothing in main hand being adjusted would be really nice, esp when folks grab tongs and forget about them lol

[lucid orbit]

i wonder if that offhand item bug could be related to the crafting items bug and the glitched items that are caused by this, but that's just random thought

[gritty barn]

There are so many weird esoteric bugs sometimes.

[gritty barn]

I don't know if Tyron would go for that change, is the thing.

It's just kind of a thought I had.

At the end of the day I'm really just trying to get as much information as possible and think of as many ideas so I can distill things down on what needs to be done both short term and longer term.

[hollow raptor]

I'm ambivalent about offhand drain with a light, used to that and it's fine, setting the light down or shifting it back onto bar when not using it is whatever, then shield it makes perfect sense for that to be a very constant bit of a drain so it's good hehe

[hollow summit]

I turned the hunger rate down to 0.5 of normal (get hungry half as fast) and now we are not dying of starvation every 5 minutes.

[hollow raptor]

like being equipped out and ready for a fight should feel like it's tiring and requires some planning

[hollow raptor]

makes sense, and honestly a lot of the conversations are coming down to day1-3 experience, playstyles for different groups, and time investment required for food versus wanting to focus on other aspects of the game without micromanaging hunger frequently

the line between uncompromising and un-fun can be pretty delicate

new player experience is a vital consideration though, if it feels impossible to keep from starving out early on, people are likely to just bounce off the game instead of looking at their worldconfig, as so many folks have reported here

a grace period setting might be a middle ground option, maybe?

[coral swan]

I haven't touched the story yet, I just go through the material progression. I'm waiting on steel age before I even try exploring XD

[severe jewel]

Just throwing this out there, having villages you could trade with for food early game would mitigate a lot of the early game food issues while keeping the game grounded in realism. After all it takes time to get things going on your own, and surviving being thrown in the middle of nowhere alone would be really hard, but having an established community to trade with would improve your odds immensely.

[coral swan]

Reading through this thread, it seems more like the real problem is a lack of communication or indication from the game why food drains. Sure, it makes sense that healing and sprinting would use more satiety, but there's nothing in game actually telling you for what reasons and how much each contributes. It just looks like bar goes down at some mysterious rate. (Hence why having to pull up the actual numbers seems to have become a big point here)

Maybe the bar could change color depending on how fast it's draining? If not, just having a number saying how much you are losing, either in menus or as a hover over tooltip?

Also, as someone who plays with loose/gravity soil, traversing any hill basically almost guarantees damage 😭 Idk, I'm new at the game (~30 hours) so maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but it's almost certain that soil will fall and do some minor tick damage. Kinda sucks that it means any time I wanna explore a mountain I'll have such a large drain. Though saying that out loud, it does make sense XD

Thankfully, we can all just adjust the hunger rates per world to what we want :D

[gritty barn]

The problem is that half of all players seem to play with a sliver of health missing all the time so they might not even notice the difference in that case, haha.

A sprinting indicator is likely a good idea, though...

I wouldn't personally say you're doing it wrong.

Just so it's clear I believe this bug has existed for 8 years.

So a lot of the game is likely balanced around the bug existing.

I'm hopeful that a smallish tweak can fix it, though.

[fallen valley]

So I've finally updated from pre-10 to stable and it's... not even nearly as bad as y'all are making it look?

The only situation when I actually saw "pieces if a bar falling off" is when I was sprinting with a lantern in offhand while injured and below 37° body temp

[desert parrot]

Agree this feels like the bug(s) have been around long enough that the game was built on top of them, so it feels like a change for a lot of players. For me, in the early game especially pre-armor, I almost always take a swipe from a wolf, or have some fall damage, but am generally good enough that I can avoid actually dying, so I don't prioritize healing.

I was unaware of how my sprinting + being injured was leading to my hunger going down so fast, which is how I found this thread! My early game of the 1.22 save I have going was incredibly tight until I got a cooking pit with some fish stews going. Hunger is very intertwined with so many other mechanics that small tweaks are probably the way to go, alongside some broader communication or transparency in the UI.

Given how the world is infinite and an Elk is plausbly ~10 hours into a save, its a lot of time to ask players to walk, but beyond the first few days I don't think its that crunchy to build enough reserves to sprint everywhere. Will keep playing with the new info in mind and report back.

[gritty barn]

Well, as of right now riding an elk isn't functionally going to reduce your movement penalty anyway.

[icy sigil]

In solo, the first couple of hours are rough until you get some crops and can start cooking with pots. It's manageable, just a little tedious at first. The only caveat is if you get crap RNG in a bad spawn biome.

The issue is massively exacerbated by multiplayer. A dozen players in an 1k by 1k block area can quickly deplete resources. So, you need to move, but to move, you need to run/walk/jump/swim.

It becomes a self perpetuating starvation issue. If you can't find a good place to settle, or you die on your way, then you respawn hungry. But there isn't any food available nearby because it's already been consumed, which is the reason you tried to leave in the first place.

[fallen valley]

With fishing factored into the the early game loop it really is not an issue. Five minutes of active work (make a stick - find some worms - fish - flay) a day will provide you with enough nutrition for a couple days.

[severe jewel]

Fishing needs to be more transparent, make it clear you don't need to see the fish in the water to catch something.

[fallen valley]

Seriously, fishing is so incredibly lurcative I haven't hunted a single redmeat creature until bronze

[fallen valley]

On one hand, true. On another, people should really start reading patch notes...

[icy sigil]

On our multiplayer server, the local area was already completely depleted of reeds and vines in the first 6 or so hours.

So yeah, fishing is great, but when you are having trouble finding flint/stone and rope materials, it doesn't solve the problem.

I'm not sure there is a solution because it's a different problem solo vs. server play. All together though, food really isn't much fun compared to all the other chores in the game. Everything else requires exploration, while food is the barrier for you to engage with the rest of the game.

Eventually it becomes a non-issue, but the first few in game months in multiplayer can be very painful

[severe jewel]

Easiest solution would be what a lot of MC servers do, have a landing area, then let the player teleport to a random location somewhere in 30 000 block radius, expand as necessary.

[lucid orbit]

Maybe some sort of hunger drain nerf scaled basing by the amount of players logged in and playing would make sense on a server? So basically the more players online = slower hunger drain? When 1 player online would have the same experience as playing single player

[tough wraith]

I haven't read through the entire thread but here are my thoughts:
I already felt like I spent 50% of my time cooking in the game, now you're telling me that the intended experience is for that to be 75% or higher if I decide to sprint in a game where resources can be 3000+ blocks away?

Maybe I'm overreacting or exaggerating, and I get that it's early access and subject to change, but it feels a bit irresponsible to make such massive sweeping changes to a mechanic that touches literally every corner of the game even if it is technically a bug fix. Especially when you compound it with crop growth changes, berry changes, etc.

[coral swan]

New players wouldn't be reading patch notes, which can get buried over time. Though at the same time, new players might not make the same (now wrong) assumptions as ones who experienced the old fish would XD

[coral swan]

How are you getting elk 10 hours in :O

[north patrol]

re: the increased penalty for healing, i need to test this, but i believe that because its correctly applied as a multiplier now, it should make it cost less food to recover while sleeping and benefiting from the 0.25x multiplier from not moving

[icy sigil]

This is really what I think most people are bothered by. You can't walk away from making food for days at a time. You need to do it in batches for efficiency, you need to properly store it, etc.

All of that is fine in a vacuum until you realize you need to spend tremendous amounts of time doing it, and doing it regularly. It's a massive time sink that is a barrier to you doing just about anything else.

[north patrol]

i think a lot of people arent really aware of that reduction applying while sleeping in general

[coral swan]

Ye, I thought it was just draining at the same equivalent rate

[sweet seal]

I'm sorry if I'm coming in hot but I'm one of the people monitoring this thread who is angry.

I want to throw in here the constant 'well if you're walking around your house eating meals and not sprinting it sounds reasonable' stuff makes 0 sense when it takes a while to get to that point. If this was the intended effect the intention is wrong.

[north patrol]

also, this was a last minute bug fix and i dont think it was fully understood how large of a balance change it ended up being just because the hunger code was so broken previously.

the game balance will be tweaked if it needs to

[sweet seal]

I am open to it being a mistake. I am open to needing a rebalance. I'm open to everything except 'this is fine and how it should be and you definitely burn that many calories a day and this is fair.'

Lot of people not having fun should be the bottom line.

[north patrol]

the fact is though that things were intended to be more punishing than they were, maybe too much now, but being injured was definitely not supposed to be so forgiving to the point of ignoring the sprinting penalty

or sprinting just being ignored outright often

a lot of things were balanced around the broken hunger, so we will see how it is approached and tuned from here

tbh i do see "adjust your playstyle" as a valid answer to some things here, like dont run around while youre hurt if you can. healing items are more valuable now, as is sleeping

[coral swan]

Maybe the current settings could be branded as a "ultra realistic slow burn" game mode/world config preset, and closer to how it was before being put as the default one?

[north patrol]

well the tough part is that this isnt settings, its how the hunger code fundamentally was intended to operate but it had a bunch of bugs that made it not apply a lot of penalties correctly

[coral swan]

.
That way, new players are pushed to a more forgiving style, whereas anyone experienced (which, seems to be the intended playstyle? Which is odd imo), can still have it that way without having to tweak a billion presets

[north patrol]

so the best that can be done right now is to reduce the hunger speed in worldconfig

[coral swan]

I mean, the flat reduction settings does do wonders imo

[north patrol]

sprinting and healing just straight up werent applying a lot of the time which is obviously going to make a big difference! sprinting alone is a 2.4x increase, and healing adds more on top

[coral swan]

Maybe those could be their own individual settings as well

[north patrol]

the base cost for 1 health is 150 hunger, but this will increase with your hunger usage

that said, the reduction in healing speed as you go below 75% hunger does adjust this somewhat

to some extent players are just now experiencing mechanics that effectively kind of didnt exist prior, by accident

there have been a few other things like that in the past lol

one of the bugs i fixed is that liquid perish timers werent averaged when adding new liquid to a container, so it would just use what was already there. in practice most people experienced this as a buff because they just add fresh stuff to existing liquid, but some people may have been unintentionally exploiting it (aside from those who did so on purpose)

though a pure nerf from a bug i fixed is how you no longer reset perish timers when baking something in an oven

so it varies in the severity of how any bug fix affects balance

[lofty jungle]

Who in this thread was specifically singling out the injured/sprinting penalty?

Majority discourse has been about satiety drain

[north patrol]

it doesnt need to be brought up for it to be a factor?

many people are sprinting all the time and doing so while injured

[hot torrent]

bit of an extreme example, but i was playing on TOPS in winter, ran out of food and the hunger rate was so fast that as i hunted/gathered more food, id starve, meaning i was stuck in an endless loop of doing nothing but getting food just not to starve

[lofty jungle]

Quite literally is integral to the main argument?

Main argument is hunger drain too fast

The rule.

Not “stop sprinting” “while injured” the exception…

[north patrol]

yes, and that is affected by what people are doing so idk what you mean

[icy sigil]

Adjust your playstyle is a weak argument when the game all but punishes you for not running. You're really going to walk everywhere unless you're fighting?

It already takes multiple in game days of exploring to find certain resources. Every action you do seems to have some drain on your food. Hell, even wanting to not be blind in a tunnel drains your food.

It'd be one thing if passive healing just required you to have a certain level of satiety, where the healing is faster if you have better nutrition or something.

The whole satiety and nutrition system is opaque and vague, and it's a very unrewarding system to engage with mechanically. Clay forming and smithing, while tedious, at least have a sense of accomplishment.

The time sink sucks. For the amount of time I spend making iron and steel, I at least don't have to do it every other in game day. You can batch them out, they don't go bad, they aren't consumed rapidly. The cooking and food system is overall just not very fun.

[north patrol]

dont direct your balance complaints at me, im the messenger

[lofty jungle]

This has been mentioned out the wazoo but this experience has been experienced upon spawn

[north patrol]

when you stand still at spawn?

[lofty jungle]

Constant from spawn

[north patrol]

or walk around?

[lofty jungle]

Constant

Hunger drain, period

[north patrol]

please be even a little bit more descriptive

this does not have any time limit

sprinting always applies its penalty now

[lofty jungle]

Why are you mentioning sprinting to me

[north patrol]

are you timing hunger drain while standing still after spawning?

you provide no details other than "hunger drain from spawn"

idk what that means in your mind

[timid crystal]

It also seems to me that protein boost is much shorter now, because on 1.21 I could eat a bowl of meat and running for several in game hours with no hunger drain but now the same meat stew is lasting like an hour or so

[lofty jungle]

We’ve been giving you the same anecdotal experience this entire thread I don’t know how to make it any clearer

Upon spawn is it more than evident the rate at which your satiety goes down has increased

It is much faster

[north patrol]

im using the numbers from the code and experimental evidence from my testing on the very same server you are on

[lofty jungle]

You’re in Greenleaf and not experiencing insane hunger drain as a constant?

[north patrol]

sprinting now drains faster, walking i dont think was changed

nor was standing still

[lofty jungle]

Again no idea why sprinting is being mentioned

[coral swan]

Oh is it? That's a bummer.
Also, food should say how long of a pause it gives imo

[north patrol]

then what are you talking about

give any detail

[lofty jungle]

I gave you the entire experience

[north patrol]

what actions are being taken

when you experience heavy hunger cost, what are you doing?

[lofty jungle]

Literally any action

[coral swan]

Because the major change to hunger (seems to be) is that sprinting (and some other actions I think) now contribute more to hunger drain then before

[lofty jungle]

It literally goes down if you stay still

[north patrol]

have you compared the timer for that between versions?

[lofty jungle]

I understand this a general point but the point I’m making is that this clearly isn’t the issue

[lofty jungle]

No but I can FEEL it because it is that evident

I got addicted to the game last year

I rage quitted this week

[north patrol]

it should be easy to do so then

if its that fast

[coral swan]

Which server are you talkin about?

[north patrol]

i logged into greenleaf yesterday and tested this and it works

[lofty jungle]

So you aren’t experiencing hunger drain at a ridiculously crippling level?

[gritty barn]

What sleeping multiplier?

[north patrol]

not when standing or walking

[north patrol]

sleeping applies the standing still multiplier

[lofty jungle]

So you are experiencing it when what?

Only sprinting or what?

[north patrol]

i tested standing still, walking, sprinting, and doing all of those while injured

idk why you think im not testing things thoroughly

[lofty jungle]

And you are experiencing crippling hunger drain at those?

[lofty jungle]

Please don’t, I’m not doing that.

[north patrol]

they work as expected using the defined rates for every 10 seconds

i think this is the right message

and my testing matched up

[coral swan]

I've started a timer, I created a character and am standing still now

[north patrol]

i did that myself

[lofty jungle]

I trust what you’re saying but I’m also not going to be inadvertently gaslit out of my own experience, how I was able to enjoy the game before and not now in such an extreme way is cause for concern and corroborated by the many who feel the same

[gritty barn]

Actually, at 100% health, 100% hunger rate, default tickrate, no lag, sprinting is identical to before.

[coral swan]

damn it

something hit me

:(

[north patrol]

and also, it is very important to bring up the tps thing

[lofty jungle]

Sure sprinting is now more punishing

[north patrol]

if a server runs at less than the default, it was using hunger slower than intended

[lofty jungle]

But just walking around picking up some mushrooms and sticks, you can just FEEL the change

[gritty barn]

Only to hunger, not to health regeneration.

[median forum]

tickles me more than it should that the 'don't sprint while injured' thing keeps being hammered on as though a starving seraph sprinting away from the bear trying to snack on it isn't the early/newbie vs experience

[gritty barn]

Sprinting only, technically.

[north patrol]

i see, still something to prevent everything from stacking all at once

[gritty barn]

To be clear, I as a developer am very aware of the complaints, but it's the weekend and I do not decide game balance, so all I can do is explain what was changed (the bug fix) and why it's technically "intentional", not comment on what might be changed, whether the fix might be reverted, or whether balance will be altered.

[lofty jungle]

So many things exacerbated the issue too for sure

Berry rework, game being faster and so on

[gritty barn]

It was not clear that this would be such a big change because I wasn't aware that the health regeneration mechanic was so punishing and ran so often that it was cancelling out hunger entirely. I only knew that it was reducing the sprinting penalty.

See, if they both ran every 10 seconds it would have been a very occasional canceling out of the hunger.

And thus it would have been very small as a change.

But since health regen runs every second it's a guaranteed cancelling out.

[north patrol]

it can be very hard to fix bugs when its not so clear how something is really supposed to work...

[calm berry]

I know servers are having trouble reducing the food problem, because there isn't really a way to easily change that.

[vital slate]

Not even the food multiplier?

[icy sigil]

I appreciate that you've touched base with us at least. I feel like this is just a multifaceted issue and I'm sure y'all are going to need to spend some time thinking about the many layers attached to it.

I'm always reminded that in quake there was a gun everyone thought sucked until the devs gave it a better and louder firing sound, and then it was great. But they didn't change any of it's mechanical values. Game dev is complex and difficult, and player bias is real

[calm berry]

The server I was on kept reducing it again and again, it wasn't helping much, it did help but you still go through food super fast.

[vital slate]

Fair

[calm berry]

Does how the healing thing works mean having more max hp is actually a debuffs for early game.

[north patrol]

i dont think its based on how much health youre missing, so it shouldnt be

[gritty barn]

It's just strange because I tested a bunch of scenarios and literally as long as I wasn't injured I got identical hunger drain in 1.21 and 1.22, yet people here have been complaining that it's always faster in 1.22 and pointing out that they can see chunks of the bar disappearing now when you could already see that in 1.21.

[north patrol]

yeah, this is what actually aggravates me here because im not seeing any evidence contrary your testing or my own

[calm berry]

Are server configs working correctly?

[north patrol]

that this is a big difference 100% of the time

also, a bug was fixed where reduction or increase in configured hunger rate was accidentally applied twice

so if you had 0.5 previously you need 0.25 now

[gritty barn]

I am somewhat convinced that most players or at least most of the players bringing it up typically had a small sliver of health missing virtually all the time and thus were getting free sprinting rather often and when eating a meal were also just not experiencing hunger.

[north patrol]

yeah, this is pretty much what im getting from it

[gritty barn]

There's one balance change included, which is that the character hunger multiplier applies to all satiety drain.

[calm berry]

Because I think servers are having issues with reductions not working properly maybe, the server I was on dropped it a couple times with no noticeable difference

[north patrol]

likely from running around taking little bits of fall damage

[gritty barn]

So, if your character screen says 247%, before healing would still cost 1.5 sat per second, now it will cost 3.705 per second.

[north patrol]

the healing is the big thing i think

[icy sigil]

Yeah, I don't know. Something definitely feels different now.

I think it probably is that we are minorly injured very often, and early on it's hard to heal that back when you're already having a tough time finding food.

[north patrol]

i will say sleeping ought to remove some penalties outright like offhand usage

making sleeping an appealing option to avoid harsh penalties could be a good thing

rest to recover better

[calm berry]

The server I was on was also struggling with changing the months to 30 days, they kept changing it and it would not keep and would switch back to 9

[gritty barn]

Meaning that before if you were out in the cold on standard hunger sprinting with something in your offhand in full plate armor as a blackguard and injured and ate a meal the meal delay pause would deplete at a rate of 1.5 sat per second as it would cancel all hunger (unless you attack something which would incur a bit extra).

Now? 0.96 sat for moving, 2.4 sat for sprinting, 1.5 sat for healing, all multiplied by 247% which totals to 12.0042 sat drain per second.

[north patrol]

i also dont doubt the existence of a little bit of nocebo effect in all of this

[gritty barn]

In other words, a lot of stuff was functionally "free" when it shouldn't have been before.

[north patrol]

that broken stuff just not working is hard to describe the magnitude of without going through the numbers lol

[gritty barn]

In fairness if you did nothing but halve the sat drain for sprinting and healing that number becomes 7.1877.

[coral swan]

So basically if anyone had even a minor injury, they were capped at 1.5 even with armor and everything?

And now it actually scales as initially intended?

Maybe a contributing factor is people thought that the full armor healing was the max rate, and they are suddenly jumping to the like, 4 times as much

[icy sigil]

I mean this makes sense, it is a 7x sat drain increase with those numbers, which would definitely be noticeable even without good testing

[north patrol]

im sure running around injured with armor is a big factor

but then it would not be "constant from spawn"

[icy sigil]

It does feel like my sat drains quicker when I'm sitting than it used to, but I haven't tested and I'm not convinced that I haven't tricked myself tbh

[north patrol]

injured at all?

[gritty barn]

And then you could just take off the armor and free your offhand to lower it to 4.5105.

[icy sigil]

Some of the times certainly, which is probably when I've noticed it

[north patrol]

yeah, healing is much more costly now

[gritty barn]

I wouldn't say much more costly.

[north patrol]

noticeably at the least

[gritty barn]

Again, the maximum hunger rate your character can have in vanilla is 247% (I did the math wrong before).

But that's with full plate armor.

Which adds 72% all by itself.

Without armor the worst you can have is 175%.

And again that's only as Blackguard.

[coral swan]

something definitely feels faster about it, but I don’t have enough experience to say much more than anyone else has atp v-v

[gritty barn]

The worst a non-Blackguard player will experience without armor is just 1.45%.

That's holding something in your offhand in the cold.

If you're out in the cold the worst it can be is 25%, but it has to be -8ºC or lower to get that full penalty.

[north patrol]

many people also use gambeson 24/7

[gritty barn]

For context, that means that if you're not a blackguard and you just go outside for a bit the healing itself even in very cold temps is going from 1.5 to 1.875 a second.

It's certainly not nothing but it's really functionally a very minor change.

The issue is really the bug fixes.

Like, to the degree that I think if I just reverted the 2 or so line changes that fixed the specific bugs around healing canceling out hunger, most players would hardly notice the difference from 1.21 at all.

Even with the balance change.

Wilderness Survival might even feel easier because of a different fix.

[barren grotto]

thanks for the advice lads

[icy sigil]

You can also dig a 3 deep trench around your crops and try to capture animals in it

[fallen valley]

Meanwhile I feel a renewed sense of purpose here as a dedicated food supply person

[coral swan]

I thought that some people here might like that XD

[icy sigil]

You are certainly very valuable right now

[chilly vector]

So I have a bit of an odd question. This might not be the right thread for it, but it kind of pertains to testing the issue so I figured it should be fine.
Can you safely take the entire Vintage Story folder and separate it to allow for testing out different versions, or are there hooks in other places on the system that would make that janky?

[fallen valley]

Hence why I'm trying to share my insights on how to not starve!

[vital slate]

I don't recall exactly where but I know there's one other hook for vintage story stuff. I don't think it matters however. I personally have been just installing my new version in a random folder, and keeping the old ones intact. I can go and play those old ones just fine.

[lofty jungle]

@gritty barn we recently restarted again with a 0.5 value, some people say it got better some say it got worse

People are saying there is a known bug for Blackguards, where their drain is worse when the value is set lower, is this substantiated by anything you know?

[wise moss]

This should not work this way. It actively discourages making meals with a variety of ingredients

[fallen valley]

Counterpoint: you'll have very little hp if you only stick to hefty redmeat stews

Cook more often or snap as a stick - your choice

[wise moss]

Well, the "meta" would be to make powerful single ingredient meals of each type rather than making varied meals. Personally, I think varied meals are more interesting and should be encouraged

[fallen valley]

also EF 5k sat meals waving at us from the corner shyly

[wise moss]

like why make a system where you can combine ingredients of different food groups if that actually nerfs your food? it doesn't make sense

[fallen valley]

But I agree, it would make more sense if the pause was taking the total sum rather than individual numbers into account

That might well be a bug or an oversight

[wise moss]

You can still get to 25-30hp by making several single ingredient meals (e.g. meat stew, cabbage stew, fruit pie, cheese pie) to max your hp and then make a single ingredient food for travel. There is zero reason to mix and match ingredients if what Pizza says is true

The new pot pies added to vanilla 1.22 where you can mix protein and veg? it's actually worse than a single ingredient pie

[coral swan]

This message is how I learned there were pot pies (cool!) and that apparently they are worse (not cool :( )

But ye I agree. Last I checked, meals IRL usually use a variety of ingredients. Being encouraged to spam all my meat into the same meat stew (and same with veggies, grain, etc) doesn’t seem as interesting as trying to mix and match different ingredients.

In fact, maybe it should be completely reversed? Single ingredient meals could give less pause than a varied meal.
(also translates into more effort/thinking -> more reward)

.
Also at this point, this thread should be renamed to balancing discussion/moved to suggestions XD

[median forum]

berry thread... 2!

[hollow folio]

+1 i used to play as a blackguard class, and now decided to do a commoner run. Food drain after 1.22 for commoner is pretty much the same as for blackguard. Very hard to manage at early game. If i would have chosen a blackguard i would say i would have quit. I think you need to tone it down for a new players.

[hollow folio]

have around 200 h in this game

[gritty barn]

I have not seen any proof from anything that this would be the case, no.

[gritty barn]

If you look through the rest of the thread you'll find that I misinterpreted the code at first and it always gives you the delay of just one food item in the meal, whichever has the longest delay, basically. Or rather it applies the delay of all 4 items and the hunger bar is just paused as long as there's any particular delay active, and the nutrition bars pause only as long as their specific delay is active.

[lofty jungle]

I asked for another attempt and people are saying it’s better, I also see it’s better now! Thanks Pizza

[wise moss]

ok i re-read the thread and missed this. in my experience with 1.22 rcs and before, i am not sure if this is correct but more testing would be needed to be sure. I was getting like half day of no sat loss with a 4-meat stew on TOPS

I think it would be beneficial to have an indicator of this behavior on the hunger bar

questions about this saturation delay come up all the time and it seems nobody really knows the true mechanics and it's hard to test. if there was some kind of "progress bar" highlighting the hunger bar that slowly went down as the saturation pause was in effect, it would be very easy to know what's going on

[gritty barn]

Oh, well, the amount of delay didn’t change, it’s just draining faster because satiety is draining faster, like Tyron just said in #devlog.

[gritty barn]

Oh yeah good point.

[mighty plover]

Hello, I'm wondering if the constant hunger fast drain feeling is due of the max health gain while eating, which is different when full health vs when missing health. 🤔
Especially when not full health, the hunger drain is still fast because eating adds max health as missing health.

I tried to use healing bandages before eating to mitigate the hunger drain issue as a workaround

[gritty barn]

That's basically the issue, yes.

[mighty plover]

Sorry I didn't get patient enough to read all the thread before posting :p

[gritty barn]

No worries!

[shadow rover]

I have a question about the devlog post.

"What happened is that we fixed an actual bug where being injured as well as sprinting would never drain satiety. This has the unforeseen consequence that you get hungry a lot quicker"

Hunger drain was never this fast. Was this a 5+ years old bug baked into the basic gameplay mechanics or a new bug caused by some recent change to healing?

[vital slate]

Pizza identified when the bug was introduced. When healing taking hunger was introduced. https://www.vintagestory.at/blog.html/news/the-stable-food-spoilpreserve-update-v1100-r201/

Almost 7 years ago

[shadow rover]

Right. So it's had 7 years to have some gameplay mechanics mould around it before being suddenly removed. ||Like tearing away clothing that binds to a wound during healing.||

[gritty barn]

The change Tyron announced in devlog means that if you're injured and sprinting satiety will drain 1.65 less per second.

Sprinting when not injured will also cost less than ever before.

So it will still encourage you to heal more often with poultice instead of relying on natural regen, and to avoid sprinting when possible.

Oh, holding down the sprint key also now only counts as sprinting if you're also holding a directional key.

Players that hold it down constantly even when they've stopped to do something for a moment will experience a bit of relief in this.

Things in 1.22.1 that will be cheaper than in 1.21:

• Standing still while injured (reduction between about 34% and 43%)
• Walking while injured when no meal was recently eaten (reduction of about 30.5%)
• Sprinting when not injured (reduction of about 27%)

Things in 1.22.1 that are more expensive than in 1.21:

• Walking while injured after recent meal was eaten (about 14% more sat used
• Sprinting while injured no recent meal eaten (about 30% more sat used)
• Sprinting while injured after recent meal eaten (114% more sat used)

Standing/sitting completely still and walking cost the same.

1.22.1 versus 1.21:

• More sat:
  • Nothing!
• Less sat:
  • Standing still while injured (reduction of about 43%)
  • Walking while injured (reduction of about 30.5%)
  • Sprinting 100% health (reduction of about 27%)
  • Sprinting while injured (reduction of about 34%)

[gritty barn]

So theoretically a reduction of around 33% on average if you were to spend 100% of your time injured, or sprinting or both.

IRL Minutes to reach 0 sat from 1500 sat in 1.21**/1.22/**1.22.1:

• Sitting or standing still:
  • Full health: 104.17**/104.17/**104.17
  • Injured: 14.37**/14.37/**25.25
• Any basic movement:
  • Full health: 26.04**/26.04/**26.04
  • Injured: 10.16**/10.16/**14.62
• Sprinting
  • Full health: 7.44**/7.44/**10.16
  • Injured: 10.16**/5.14/**7.79

IRL Minutes for best meal delay (3 cabbage stew) to wear off in 1.21**/1.22/**1.22.1:

• Sitting or standing still:
  • Full health: 27.69**/27.69/**27.69
  • Injured: 4.43**/3.82/**6.71
• Any basic movement:
  • Full health: 6.92**/6.92/**6.92
  • Injured: 4.43**/2.70/**3.89
• Sprinting:
  • Full health: 1.98**/1.98/**2.70
  • Injured: 4.43**/1.37/**2.07

Hopefully that gives a general idea of the change people can understand.

Adding these together we can get the total time if you ate a meal that gives the best delay and the full 1500 sat (3 cabbage, 1 onion).

[chilly vector]

Honestly on paper this looks fantastic. Will be fun to try it out.

[coral swan]

Lmao, I actually only found out poultices could be made with horsetail(?) just earlier today, and before thought I’d have to wait til I had decent linen and honey production XD

Maybe people just aren’t using poultices early game because they don’t know about it?

[dim acorn]

could also be bad rng on starting area/where they settled not having any horsetail

[fallen valley]

Enough weak souls have joined each other in a chorus for the collective wailing to reach Tyron himself huh

[median forum]

tops got mad about it so yeah

[hot torrent]

playing on TOPS after hunger changes that its good now imo

[gritty barn]

Do you feel like it's comparable to 1.21 in about how much you have to eat?

[hot torrent]

i dunno if its exact same, but it feels pretty similar at least

[gritty barn]

Okay so here's an actual proper visual of calculated numbers.

For context, the meal it's talking about could be made using 3 cabbage and 1 onion, for instance.

And this is at 100% character hunger rate.

And 100% global hunger rate.

Here is with the 130% hunger rate of a blackguard.

[native shard]

movement means if you use the constantly hold elk mount you will constantly be using sprint hunger? @gritty barn

[gritty barn]

To my understanding that is correct.

I have not tested that.

[native shard]

gotcha, thats good to know

[hallow jewel]

I just started a new world. And my food drain have been stuck at 120% the whole time. Is that the default now or?

[hallow jewel]

I think I figured it out. It sometimes get stuck at 120% after you remove something from your off hand. Its easy to fix if you notice it, just add and remove something until it's fixed.

[covert silo]

The question is if this is a bug in the displayed numbers or actual numbers as well. If the latter, then SOMETIMES not getting the penalty removed is still a significant bug I think!

[north patrol]

it does still apply the penalty, in 1.22.0 at least. i remember it happening in some of my testing and being baffled about why my numbers didn't match up when i wasnt doing anything to increase my hunger rate lol

[sterile marsh]

its been a while but i noticed (anmd im sure most of you have) putting an item in your free hand like a torch takes away that 20% penatly. does it actually do something or am i like missing something? lol

[coral swan]

Wdym? Putting something in your offhand adds 20% to your hunger rate, and removing it removes that 20% again.

[north patrol]

theres currently a bug where sometimes the 20% penalty isnt updated correctly when your offhand status changes

[sterile marsh]

ooh ok ok, sorry for the confusion this seemed to be a significant bug and when i saw no more comments i assumed some knid of fix was released lol my apologies

[north patrol]

the original discussion was about the change in the rate of hunger drain in 1.22.0 being overtuned and people not understanding that the (now less severe) increased hunger drain is due to being injured

this other bug just came up in the discussion

[sterile marsh]

dang, thank you sir for explaning what is going on. appreciate it. ggs ggs

[gritty barn]

@raven radish Hello! I was commenting on your YouTube short, but if you're wanting more information about it this is a pretty good thread to read through.

You can also ask me whatever questions you'd like!

[raven radish]

Hey thanks so much!! I'll give this a read and respond here when I get a chance later today!

[north patrol]

i made a short comment because i was on my phone, lol, hopefully my testing here was helpful

[latent pollen]

Hunger games

[north patrol]

@raven radish I also just left another comment after giving the code another look since I slightly misremembered lol

you get a delay for each nutrition based on the largest ingredient for it, and then as long as you have any delay active, your hunger doesnt go down

so the actual hunger delay is based on the single largest ingredient

cabbage + onion has the same hunger delay as cabbage + flax, but the former wont also give you a grain delay

[raven radish]

Wow, okay, I made it through this entire thread, and my head is spinning!

As far as my understanding of it now goes:

1. Bug prior to 1.21.6 was fixed, causing perception of hunger issues (already knew this).
2. Some people still reporting absurd amounts of food needed, so possible bug somewhere OR bad server config.
3. Possible bug where the +20% hunger drain from offhand is not correctly removed when offhand is cleared.
4. Hunger pause is effectively calculated based ONLY on the single highest-satiation ITEM in the meal/pie, not on the highest category nor the meal itself.
5. The other ingredients in the meal/pie only provide "pause" to the Nutrition bars (on the Character screen).
6. "Hunger pause" isn't really an accurate term, since it's really "extra, invisible satiation not shown to the player."
7. Pies are calculated a bit differently, but if the items in the pie all have identical satiation AND the pie was filled to the top, then the satiation values should be identical to when they are cooked into a meal.
8. If eating a meal would put you over the 1500 satiation cap, you get a proportion of the hunger pause based on the % of the meal that you ate.
9. Healing, sprinting, holding items in the off-hand, wearing armor, being cold, and being a Blackguard increase hunger.
10. Eating more meals does not stack hunger pauses; the new overwrites the old.

The parts I don't quite understand and have questions about:

1. In my short, I ate two meals: one of flax-flax porridge and one of flax-flax-cranberry-cranberry. Why did the flax-flax porridge provide more hunger pause/invisible satiation than the flax-flax-cranberry-cranberry? (It was almost an extra 30 seconds.)
2. Is there a difference in the hunger pause received when, for example, I eat 240 satiation when my hunger bar is half full vs eating 240 satiation when it is empty? (This question is separate from the 1500 satiation cap, which I already understand.)

more below...

... continued:

My thoughts on this hunger system (game balance issues, I understand Tyron gets final say in all this):

1. I haven't personally had any issues with "having to eat 10 horses a day" as some other people have, but the amount of time spent solely on managing food does feel a bit excessive.
2. The fact that only one ITEM in the meal contributes to hunger pause feels ridiculous and punishing. In real life, eating a bowl of cabbage soup vs eating a bowl of soup with twice the cabbage would be roughly twice as filling, etc.
3. The "tradeoff" of pausing nutrition drain is so miniscule. Seriously, who cares about nutrition drain? It's really only useful with low-damage enemies, since the high-damage ones deal SO MUCH damage that even doubling your health barely matters unless you're wearing full plate. And THEN, your nutrition still barely matters because you're wearing full plate. Nutrition drain can be worked around easily here by rotating your diet rather than by eating mixed-nutrition meals.
   3a) Plus, when you die and your nutrition gets cut in half (so you lose like 25% of your total maximum hit points), you're likely going to have to dive back in to whatever gaggle of enemies killed you to get your stuff back in the first place. Nutrition ain't helping you there.
4. The design of the system works in a way that, if you are trying to maximize your food supply and hunger pause, the most optimal path is to make nothing but single-ingredient soup, preferably with either cabbage or red meat.

[latent pollen]

Exactly, food is taking too much time, I don't have time for shit because of it. I log in i make pies, to be able to make pies, boom so much time has passed I log off because I am burnt out

[north patrol]

Okay, about the bug fix: It was due to the hunger consumption from being injured completely overwriting everything else sometimes, making being injured effectively free most of the time.

You were able to sprint around in full armor while hurt for basically no cost

This was fixed, but the numbers were not tuned for it in 1.22.0, and they were nerfed in 1.22.1

Now, if you aren't injured, everything takes less hunger

[raven radish]

I have read this entire thread, so thanks for that, but repeating it is only going to bury other discussion.

[north patrol]

But if you are hurt, then it costs more

That's the short version of everything

Also, pies don't have any special handling when eaten. They act just like normal meals there.

I'm not certain if they actually handle one ingredient technically being 2 correctly, though

Let me check

Okay, the base meal code does handle that, so each "ingredient" is a stack of 2, which makes pies give you a bigger nutrition delay from that single best ingredient

just wanted to clarify that #2 if your list was only due to numbers not being tweaked correctly for the bug fix in 1.22.0, and has been resolved

Other than that, I believe everything else you said is correct.

[raven radish]

In one of her posts above, Pizza said that this value was then divided by 2, resulting in it being exactly the same as meals. Or did I miss a correction to that? (I did have to skim some of this to read it all in under 12 hours! lol).

[north patrol]

Oh, right, I forgot that pies technically don't have a meal code, so they don't multiply by stack size.

Weird stuff

So then pies are way worse, lol

since 2 ingredients makes the best meals and pies are at least 10

pies are also weird because the entire pie is actually a single serving, so one slice is only 1/4

Wait, I think this means I was right?

so it does double it, but then divides by 4, so each slice is 1/2 of what a meal with the ingredient would be

This is all way overcomplicated, lol

Needs to be changed

which pizza does agree with me on, so I will probably look at that soon

[raven radish]

Frankly, if the code is so convoluted that explaining how a single "countdown"-style numerical system works takes THIS much discourse, it's probably too complicated.

[north patrol]

It's one of those things that just kept growing over time, and its from very old code of course

[raven radish]

(Also I hit enter on my second post by accident, but it's updated now, in case you missed it.)

[north patrol]

(from 2018!)

[raven radish]

Yeah, saw that.

[north patrol]

Oh, I definitely agree with a lot of your points there. Just a question of how to change and improve things.

What I'm working on right now does include a lot of bug fixes for meals, but nothing about nutrition yet

[raven radish]

Oh, it's so easy! Just throw out all the code and write it fresh! 😛

(At my job, we're dealing with ~13 year old code, and making one change to, say, the size of text on a button sometimes breaks things like the database connection, and then you realize half the code relies on bugs in other parts of the code to work...)

[north patrol]

That's basically exactly what happened here!

[latent pollen]

Yes, at some point you have to throw the old code out

[gritty barn]

I believe it's actually the other way around, where it does multiply if there's not a recipe. Pies however are eaten in 0.25 serving slices so it's kinda different in that way.

[gritty barn]

In my short, I ate two meals: one of flax-flax porridge and one of flax-flax-cranberry-cranberry. Why did the flax-flax porridge provide more hunger pause/invisible satiation than the flax-flax-cranberry-cranberry? (It was almost an extra 30 seconds.)
I didn't realize you'd sped up the video! I did the calculation and the delay for the meal should be 115.8571428571 satiety, which if you're standing completely still would give approximately 482.7380952381 seconds or 8 minutes and some change of delay. I said somewhere on the video, if you right or left clicked at all during that it would have counted as moving and it would have eaten 10x as much for 10 seconds, possibly. That's my best guess for what happened. Or that you were slightly damaged and couldn't tell and were healing so it drained more or you had sprinted and that used a little more or what. If you do it again and you still get that difference in delay then we'd need to be worried.
Is there a difference in the hunger pause received when, for example, I eat 240 satiation when my hunger bar is half full vs eating 240 satiation when it is empty? (This question is separate from the 1500 satiation cap, which I already understand.)
No, not at all.

[raven radish]

Hey, thanks for the reply! I do want to clarify a couple things:

1. Before starting this, I used bandages to ensure I was healed up to maximum.
2. I did not touch the mouse and had it hovering over the bar the entire time.

[gritty barn]

I haven't personally had any issues with "having to eat 10 horses a day" as some other people have, but the amount of time spent solely on managing food does feel a bit excessive.
I suppose the main question I have in regard to this is how long does this go on for? I have largely heard that food becomes a "solved problem" that you barely have to think about eventually.
The fact that only one ITEM in the meal contributes to hunger pause feels ridiculous and punishing. In real life, eating a bowl of cabbage soup vs eating a bowl of soup with twice the cabbage would be roughly twice as filling, etc.
The meal delay is very weird, yeah. I've mostly focused hunger system stuff in looking at this internally for 1.23, but theoretically it might be possible to change that up a bit. Delay isn't necessarily meant to mean that it's "more filling", I don't think, but it does definitely feel weird how it is now to some degree.
The "tradeoff" of pausing nutrition drain is so miniscule. Seriously, who cares about nutrition drain? It's really only useful with low-damage enemies, since the high-damage ones deal SO MUCH damage that even doubling your health barely matters unless you're wearing full plate. And THEN, your nutrition still barely matters because you're wearing full plate. Nutrition drain can be worked around easily here by rotating your diet rather than by eating mixed-nutrition meals.
I mean, you can just rotate your diet, but mixed nutrition meals or meals of varying nutrition that are smaller (less satiety) are both good ways to approach it so that you're not "wasting" the pause even if you feel that the nutrition system isn't all that worth it. If we're already looking at the numbers we are to a degree min/maxing.
Plus, when you die and your nutrition gets cut in half (so you lose like 25% of your total maximum hit points), you're likely going to have to dive back in to whatever gaggle of enemies killed you to get your stuff back in the first place. Nutrition ain't helping you there.
That's true, for sure. Definitely a struggle to keep nutrition up in that situation.
The design of the system works in a way that, if you are trying to maximize your food supply and hunger pause, the most optimal path is to make nothing but single-ingredient soup, preferably with either cabbage or red meat.
I suppose if your only worry is pausing the hunger bar, then yes making cabbage soup with just the water and a single cabbage and only eating when your hunger starts to drain again would be "most effective", but it sounds miserable to me.

[gritty barn]

That's kind of the style of the game, to be fair. Panning is so complicated that nobody has figured out the math to actually give accurate values on the chance of getting a specific item for the wiki, for instance.

[gritty barn]

Yeah, that's very bizarre. In my testing I basically always saw consistent and identical values for stuff like this so I don't know why you'd have seen different. I wonder if another test would give the same outcome...

[raven radish]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind testing it if it didn't take a minimum of about 20 minutes to test! lol Unless Anego has a requirements & QA position open... 😛

[gritty barn]

It's no worries. I'd guess it's something simple but that we won't be able to reproduce easily so I doubt it's worth thinking too hard about.

I do think showing a bar or something so you can visualize your delay would be nice but I don't know if Tyron and Saraty would like that.

[raven radish]

As for how long the excessive food considerations go on for... part of it is probably that I'm just too used to the game existing with the bug. I started playing in 1.13 back in what, 2020 or 2021? So for me, the feeling that I'm eating a LOT more food never goes away. It's not super onerous, but in my Desert Life series, I have to dedicate probably 15% of my time to building up a stash of sealed crocks. Which isn't much, but it's up from like 5-7% of my time!

Agree that all of these are just game balance and subjective "how it feels" things, but I do think it's weird and feels wasteful that you don't get more invisible satiation by eating more food. Morer is betterer, right??? 😛

IRT the cabbage soup thing, I think if I could actually taste the cabbage soup, it'd be pretty miserable. But it's just a video game, and I don't really care since my character has no taste buds, and I can't taste the food (I've tried licking my screen, but to no avail!).

I do have the impression that Tyron has made these systems as convoluted and vague as possible specifically so that players can't calculate things accurately, but the reality is that people WANT to know this stuff. I get asked it all the time how these things work, which is why I put out videos describing to the best of my knowledge how various game systems function.

[raven radish]

I would settle for an icon, possibly two: some kind of "+" icon on the health bar that indicates you are actively healing, and some kind of food-related icon that just indicates the presence or absence of hunger pause!

[wise moss]

I suppose if your only worry is pausing the hunger bar, then yes making cabbage soup with just the water and a single cabbage and only eating when your hunger starts to drain again would be "most effective", but it sounds miserable to me.
Players will always tend to optimize the fun out of a game. The way to solve this is to make the optimal way the most fun. In other words, make food with multiple ingredients the best, or at least, not worse than single ingredient meals

As someone who is extremely bothered by inefficiency, the whole food system as it is gets frustrating

[gritty barn]

As for how long the excessive food considerations go on for... part of it is probably that I'm just too used to the game existing with the bug. I started playing in 1.13 back in what, 2020 or 2021? So for me, the feeling that I'm eating a LOT more food never goes away. It's not super onerous, but in my Desert Life series, I have to dedicate probably 15% of my time to building up a stash of sealed crocks. Which isn't much, but it's up from like 5-7% of my time!
Well, that shouldn't really be an issue in 1.22.1 or 1.22.2. Hold on let me get the chart.

As you can see, so long as you're not both sprinting and injured you should actually always use less food than the past half decade of gameplay, when you have nothing in the offhand and it's not cold and you're not a Blackguard and so forth.

IRT the cabbage soup thing, I think if I could actually taste the cabbage soup, it'd be pretty miserable. But it's just a video game, and I don't really care since my character has no taste buds, and I can't taste the food (I've tried licking my screen, but to no avail!).
I meant that eating small meals and waiting for the delay to wear off instead of just filling your satiety bar sounds miserable.

[raven radish]

I spend a LOT of time with slightly less than full health, since I'm building a ridiculously huge temple and often fall and break my ankles, and I do tend to sprint everywhere! So that would make sense, then, that I'd probably have seen the benefit of that bug for a long time.

[proper mantle]

I think the paused saeity system is odd. Now that I know about it, I understand why sometimes I'd have full hunger for a while, then seemingly become hungry quickly.

Yes Pizza - at some point, farming gives you so much food, that you never worry about it again except for preservation and travel. We are on year 4 and have 15~ vessels full of 64 stacks of veggies. You go from constant near starvation, to fat piggies with all the food ever 🐖

I'd agree that a little + or - would be good, both for healing and maybe even when food drain resumes.
GUI can easily get cluttered with icons, so tiny things like that is better imo.

I played Blackguard for about 100~ hours in 1.22.2 and whew boy is it rough. That 30% hunger, mixed with the multipliers for being hurt / stamina usage, makes you hungry hungry hungry.

Imo, I'd rather we had larger saiety bars, so we could eat more in one go, overall eat about the same but less frequent.

Starving is also in a funky place atm imo, I was watching the streamer Tomato do a new 1.22 playthrough and he commented on just how long it takes to starve once you're hungry. I wouldn't want instant death from starving, but maybe there could be some change in the future. Still chewing on it, so I can't offer a suggestion.

Before, the damage hurt sounds from starving were a complaint I saw a lot from new players, though in 1.22 damage hurt sounds are much quieter if damage is low and hp is high, so our batch of 10~ new players on our server barely commented on it.

[raven radish]

Are... are you saying I should stop licking my screen?!?! 😛

[gritty barn]

Tyron did say he'd like icons indicating stuff like fast drain to the satiety so I'm not sure if an icon saying "it's paused" makes sense or not, especially given that it's not paused and you'd still get the "faster drain" icon next to it.

[wise moss]

Same. I'm never NOT sprinting and holding a light source in my off-hand lol

[raven radish]

Maybe an icon of someone holding their hand to their mouth with puffed-up cheeks in an "I couldn't possibly eat another bite" pose when they have excess satiation? XD

[gritty barn]

Yeah. At the end of the day the emphasis of development is on survival being meaningful and so there's not tons that can be done since it's now properly meaningful that sprinting and healing stack to both drain more. For 1.23 some of this might get rebalanced again, though.

[proper mantle]

I'd definitely like something to indicate draining speed

[raven radish]

Yeah, like I said, as far as my experience goes, it's not too onerous, it just feels like we're wasting food by not getting invisible satiation / hunger pause for anything in our food except the top-satiation item.

[wise moss]

yeah the inefficiency feels bad. i want to make multi-nutrient meals without knowing i'm being inefficient with my food because of a game mechanic that is not as well thought out as it could be

[raven radish]

My character tends to need to eat 3-4 large meals a day, but I'm also running, hunting, building, and hauling 3x10^14 metric tons of stone and dirt around in my pants pockets, so I guess it evens out?

[gritty barn]

I think the paused saeity system is odd. Now that I know about it, I understand why sometimes I'd have full hunger for a while, then seemingly become hungry quickly.
There was also a bug for most of the version from 1.10 onward that was caused by the thing I fixed and got at least two other partial bugfixes in that time period that would sometimes accidentally make the internal counter that counts up to 10 seconds to subtract hunger go into the negatives and then just keep going into the negatives and then the hunger delay would never wear off because you weren't healing and "-1000000000 seconds have passed" so you had to wait that long before it would start ticking your hunger properly again.

Many players used to report this bug so a lot probably encountered situations where they were at least partially falling victim to it over the years.

I believe that "paused forever" aspect of it was fixed for 1.21, though.

[raven radish]

Yes, I used to experience the "paused forever" bug a lot prior to 1.21. But alas, no longer!

[proper mantle]

My experience is all 1.21+, so thats where I've been feeling the paused saeity

[wise moss]

I imagine the "hunger delay" mechanic could be changed thusly:

1. Each nutrient category gets added up and your hunger delay is the result of the sum with the existing calculations instead of just the biggest ingredient
2. Instead of hunger delay always being overwritten, your hunger delay takes the larger of the two: your current remaining delay and the hunger delay provided by the food you just ate

You could even alter the hunger delay calculation so the maximum delay is still the same as it is currently, just with a better feeling factor

[gritty barn]

I played Blackguard for about 100~ hours in 1.22.2 and whew boy is it rough. That 30% hunger, mixed with the multipliers for being hurt / stamina usage, makes you hungry hungry hungry.
In 1.21 and before that 30% penalty would only apply to the hunger loop, not to anything else that drains satiety. In 1.22 it applies to all satiety drains universally. So theoretically wearing armor out in the cold with something in your off-hand as a Blackguard used to not make healing take more satiety and now it does. This is the main way that it will feel more punishing in 1.22, and thus it's more important than ever to avoid doing that stuff when possible, but it does mean that for a Blackguard it's slightly rougher I believe, yeah. I think I have the chart for that, hold on.

[proper mantle]

I've definitely been inventory juggling armor and offhand stuff to avoid starving to death. We did archives with some new folks and I must've eaten 4 pot pies in 30-60m

[gritty barn]

Here we go, that's the chart of what being a Blackguard was like before and after.

[wise moss]

perhaps blackguard could get stronger buffs to offset the huge nerf the class got with the hunger rate changes

[gritty barn]

Or, no, wait, that can't be right.

Hold on.

[proper mantle]

Class changes is a whoollle other rabbit hole

[wise moss]

yeah true, the class system is.... underbaked for sure. we can open that can of worms somewhere else

[turbid edge]

Personally, I really think that the hunger pause should be based on the total satiation of the meal, rather than the highest single ingredient in the meal. Or maybe the combination of the highest in each category of nutrition added together, at least.

[proper mantle]

If theres a good discussion place for that, let me know. I got a whole lotta thoughts on classes haha

[turbid edge]

The current system feels very obtuse

[gritty barn]

Okay, there we go. A fresh chart of what it's like for a Blackguard, I believe.

[proper mantle]

Cool cool cool, so I'm not crazy, Blackguard is utterly ungodly a black hole of calories in 1.22

[gritty barn]

Starving is also in a funky place atm imo, I was watching the streamer Tomato do a new 1.22 playthrough and he commented on just how long it takes to starve once you're hungry. I wouldn't want instant death from starving, but maybe there could be some change in the future. Still chewing on it, so I can't offer a suggestion.
I've seen it pointed out that theoretically being in a constant state of starving and just using poultice is cheaper than eating sometimes. I saw a suggestion that you could do something like reduce the total hunger for the player temporarily as they starve so they can't just heal themselves back to full without eating...

[gritty barn]

Each nutrient category gets added up and your hunger delay is the result of the sum with the existing calculations instead of just the biggest ingredient
They all drain at the same time so unless we add another delay that doesn't work.
Instead of hunger delay always being overwritten, your hunger delay takes the larger of the two: your current remaining delay and the hunger delay provided by the food you just ate
When we say "overwritten" we mean it works like that. The actual code is doing a Math.Max( of the two values so that you get the higher between the current delay and the delay the food would apply.

[gritty barn]

That makes sense, yeah!

[proper mantle]

Definitely just used poultice over food before, for short sprints.

Instant death would be agony. Rapid death would also be rough.
I could see lowering your max health the longer you're starving - it does tie in with the nutrition mechanic.

I wish I could give better feedback, but I only just started chewing on it.

[gritty barn]

Eh, it's not a huge nerf. Before you were being charged 2.4 sat a second (multiplied by the global rate) for healing no matter what and now you're being charged 1.5 sat a second (multiplied by the global rate) and multiplied by the hunger rate.

So just standing around with none of the other hunger rate penalties healing would have cost 2.4 per second before as a Blackguard and now will cost 1.95.

It's more than other classes, it's true, but it kinda evens out to mostly be better than ever like you can see in my chart.

Unless you're healing and sprinting at the same time.

[wise moss]

They all drain at the same time so unless we add another delay that doesn't work.
Then there should be a dedicated calculation for total hunger pause. Instead of relying on nutrient-specific pauses, it could use the total saturation provided by the meal, for example. Either way, the current system just feels bad knowing how it works now

[proper mantle]

Which is something most people do 24/7, tbf

[gritty barn]

If you sprint around with damage, yeah.

[wise moss]

Sprinting at the very least. I don't really know anyone who just walks around. lol

maybe new players

[proper mantle]

Does basic movement override sprinting for hunger drain?

[gritty barn]

If it used the total value for each food category you'd be less incentivized than ever to do multi nutrient meals (unless multiple meals could stack delay) but it would theoretically mean a much higher overall total delay.

[gritty barn]

Sprinting calculates separately and gets added on top.

I've already rewritten all this code for 1.23:

• We have a base rate of drain instead of "when moving /4"
• We have a "movement rate" added to the base rate
• We have a "sprint rate" added to the base rate instead of the movement rate (rather than adding both up)
• We have a "swim rate" that's just set to the regular movement rate
• We have a per jump satiety drain so that jumping doesn't count as movement
• Clicking no longer counts as movement, and anything that drains satiety that involves clicking should just do that itself
• The movement vs standing still is no longer "stand still for 3 seconds to negate the movement penalty/obtain a standing still bonus"
• Everything should be more consistent and it's JSON moddable now
• The time scaling works better so sleeping in bed should properly drain the full 8 hours you slept worth of satiety and restore the amount of health you'd get in those 8 hours
• Other stuff is being looked at

[wise moss]

I mean, for example take a meal that would provide 500 sat of Protein and 350 of Vegetable. Currently your hunger delay is calculated only using the 500 sat of Protein in practical terms because it is the biggest nutrient in the food. What I'm suggesting is to use the full 850 to calculate hunger delay. Then it wouldn't matter how your food is composed, just how filling it is. You could play with balance here and add a multiplier for the number of ingredients/nutrients in the food once at this point -- for example adding 5% per nutrient to incentivize multi ingredient meals

[proper mantle]

Edit: reading missed post

[gritty barn]

In this sense it should be easier to balance.

So even if we get to a 1.23 pre and it's not "balanced" we won't need a coder to figure out how to balance it anymore.

[proper mantle]

Oh missed new post -

[gritty barn]

I edited it, and it only applies to 1.23.

1.22 is basically just the old system with bugs fixed.

And a couple values tweaked.

And multipliers more consistently applied.

And "sprinting in place" is no longer possible.

[gritty barn]

Fun fact, all foods give a delay.

Like a coyote time for hunger.

But it's 10 satiety worth.

So you burn it off in 10 seconds of moving.

Meaning that you will barely notice a difference if you're doing something like sprinting.

[wise moss]

Yeah I figured the fact that it's a meal didn't matter, but the amount of sat provided did

[proper mantle]

I see. That 1.23 rewrites sounds like how I assumed it worked when I first started playing, so cool!

Does swim override movement/sprinting, or is it another addition?

Swim == movement rate, but does it calculate movement + swim?

[gritty barn]

Well, it's actually a separate value passed in and for vanilla the only thing that provides anything other than 10 is meals.

[gritty barn]

No, for the three movement types they're or not and.

[proper mantle]

Ahh okay, gotcha.
So swimming overrides movement, but in vanilla they have the same value. But provided for modding

[gritty barn]

Jumping was set to 0.1 sat per jump, meaning that if you jump in place 10 times you'll use 1 sat. Theoretically this can of course be tweaked, but it is an addition vs other movement so it's a "this should be low but not insanely low" thing. This also means that Step Up will become a mod that alters satiety drain and that in pure vanilla you'll get a reward for building stairs such that it's less draining to walk up stairs than jump up full blocks.

[gritty barn]

As with most things I more provide it so that internally it can be tweaked by non-coders (our game designer isn't a coder) rather than for mods and it just happens to be that modders get the benefit as well.

[proper mantle]

I was about to type that, lololo. I like that change. It makes sense. Hungry Vintagers hopping up mountains, but rewards for we stair builders

[wise moss]

Gonna make a StepUpx10 mod where you can just climb up 10 block tall walls

[proper mantle]

I thought blacksmithing made you super hungry when I first started, so every action being able to have its own sat drain now is cool.

Nightmare for calculating sat drain for hungry hungry Blackguards though

[gritty barn]

Each hammer hit (that actually connects) draining sat sounds fine, yeah?

In fairness two actions already had associated sat drain I hadn’t mentioned:

• Each use of the pan drains 4 satiety
• Every time you actually manage to hit an enemy it drains 3 satiety.

[proper mantle]

100%. Every hit removes hammer durability, and what is sat if not vintager tummy durability?

I'd also say picking up something with tongs too, but theres a bug where walking over an item does -1 tong durability - if you have that hotbar highlighted - even nuggets / bits, so you can drain like 500 tong durability easily ... So maybe after thats fixed otherwise you'd empty your stomach fast with Smithing+

[proper mantle]

I had no idea! Combat really is hungry work in 1.22

[gritty barn]

I’m still amused by the sprinting in place bug.

Hold ctrl for 10 seconds when standing completely still in 1.21 and you’ll get a free 6 extra sat drained!

[gritty barn]

Oh those have existed for like half a decade.

[proper mantle]

Thinking really hard about running makes you hungry

[gritty barn]

Like healing they didn’t have the player hunger rate applied before, so they are higher for blackguards in 1.22 it’s true.

But yeah, the simplest answer is that you’re far better off getting mounts now.

[proper mantle]

Yeah, I started treating my elk like a wheelchair on my Blackguard to avoid starving

[gritty barn]

https://tenor.com/view/robert-redford-jeremiah-johnson-nodding-yes-nod-of-approval-gif-21066931

I think it's reasonable that a player should expect to eat 3 good meals a day.

[wise moss]

if 1 sat = 1kcal then yeah, about 4000kcal a day for sprinting and jumping and all sounds about right

[gritty barn]

I don't know if it's meant to be so directly transferable to calories as that then turns into the "But in real like this gives all these calories!!1!" kinda discussion.

It's all about balancing for end result.

[proper mantle]

Is a meal one bowl of higher sat food, or like a whole pie?

[wise moss]

yeah, game balance and fun is way more important, i just had a funny shower thought

[gritty barn]

The number of people that complain about cheese is very high.

Which, like, I do get that there's a lot of processing to cheese and that if you just chug milk it's monumentally better for the total sat you get, but cheese stores a long time.

That's the whole point!

Unsurprisingly it's people that play with Expanded Foods that complain the loudest.

There's a pretty common phenomenon where we'll just make something take up more space and people will complain a ton about that as well.

Grain fields needing to be 2x the space for example.

Or cheese needing 4x the space.

For shelving.

"I used to be able to fit so much cheese in this room, this sucks!" "Just build 3 more cellars?"

[proper mantle]

I think people tend to confuse difficult or harder with bad. People in all communities always ask for easier, quicker thing - even though the difficulty is what makes it fun for them.

I'm sure its difficult in game design to know when to act like a parent, and know you need to feed people the bitter cabbage mechanics, because it really is healthy for them and the game. And when to recognize it is actually too difficult.

We added better ruins, because I thought it'd be fun exploring for new players. But it added so much loot, people stopped grinding for gears and materials and got bored. When I removed it, people started coveting every gear, every aged wood and aged ashlar block, and went back to trading and grinding and playing more.
No knock against better ruins its a beautiful mod, but the grind was healthier for my server

Cheese is also such a flex, its hard and time consuming to get. When you whip out cheese for guests, you're showing off thats value right there

[turbid edge]

I never figured satiation to be calories exactly, it's more of a combined calories + nutrition value thing? Like IRL vegetables have pretty low calories, but they have a lot of important nutrients you need to be healthy.

[high brook]

Calories IRL are not a great argument for this to begin with.

Mostly this is about effectively communicating and managing expectations across a growing audience.

[gritty barn]

Yeh.

[raven radish]

Cheese may store a long time, but milk stores inside the goat/sheep forever, haha. Just milk a sheep or goat and chug it every day. Done!

Incidentally, and this is definitely off-topic, but I think another reason cheese just isn't worth it is because of all the other requirements, including time. It wasn't AS bad prior to 1.22, but now that all animals, including sheep, are scared of the player until generation 10, milking sheep and goats is just an absolute nightmare, or something you only do right before you start a new world because you've done everything there is to do in one world. That aside, the requirement for salt means that you either have to get extremely lucky or spend an inordinate amount of time hunting for halite, or you have to spend an equally-inordinate amount of rusty gears buying salt instead.

It's just one of those things that I think could use a little more tweaking to remove some of the heavy grinding/choriness of it all. The benefit of "but cheese stores forever" really doesn't matter unless you're playing on an active server (and you only play a couple days a week), or if you're going on a long journey--but even then, cheese doesn't stack high enough to beat out the benefits of other kinds of food (like salted meat, which also, of course, requires salt!).

[gritty barn]

I think the salt thing is the worst bit.

But the dairy nutrition drains slower than the others because it's more difficult to fill.

Also I think the gen 10 thing might be fixed in 1.22.3 when that releases.

[turbid edge]

Animal behavior in 1.22 is borderline unplayable with how aggressive they are

[gritty barn]

There are various bugfixes waiting on a 1.22.3 release.

[proper mantle]

Exactly what my wife said when I mentioned this discussion to her, cuz she loves making cheese in Vintage.

Though changing salt would be a big food balance change. I wouldn't mind food rotting faster, but salt being more accessible. Right now, you either never get any, or you have more than you'll ever need.

I like culinary artillery? letting you boil saltwater for salt. Time and wood and need saltwater, but you do get salt

[gritty barn]

ACA and EF do two things you'll likely never see in vanilla.

Tapping for resin and distilling for salt.

And that's because Tyron likes the concept that some things simply require exploration and travel to achieve, I think.

But conceptually I would love to slightly rework distilling and allow salt to be a result possibly, yeah.

For seawater.

Oh also it would be so fun to tap a tree for maple syrup and birch syrup to use instead of honey in jam.

[proper mantle]

I agree with him on traveling and exploring is great, though salt pillars are so hard to hit, and it would take traveling to the sea. Add in an option for bucket water placement to allow/disallow saltwater, and folks living on the ocean can distill and sell salt.

The feast or famine with salt is, not my preference at least. Maybe if smaller deposits were more common and food rotted quicker.
I'd rather have to work a supply to keep large food stores. Food rots easier, so you grind for salt more, but its more common.

Atm, by year 2 we have so much food, in a storage vessel in a cellar it lasts so long, we can skip farming for a year. Once we find a salt pillar, we can pickle it and almost never farm.

Distilling for some salt would be neat, and syrup! Syrup and pancakes.... 🥞

[wise moss]

i would love for a special override in the prospecting code to make prospecting for halite domes easier, at least

[native shard]

Yeah i can speak from tops experience, i know a few people who simply dont care much about eating. they have hundreds of temporal gears and just teleport back to their death point when they die while mining. Theyll bring some peanuts and if they run out do that for a while.

its kinda sad seeing people do that

the terminus is so hard to balance because doing anything to punish those players would cripple its use case, even a cooldown would be brutal.

also i read the entire chat, i main blackguard and can say once you get a cabbage plantation and rice plantation going, i bring usually a stack of pie with me on expeditions made of pure rice+cabbage, and it feels very managable to play without thinking about hunger, ill also usually bring cured redmeat for long term storage when the pie rots, since it goes quick.

A stack of 32 cabbage rice pie slices can last me multiple real life hours of mining and fighting t4 creatures at mantle with heavy armor

the pie almost always rots before i can get through 16 pies made from a stack of flour

[proper mantle]

That is such a ridiculous amount of food @_@

[turbid edge]

Should generate halite stones on the surface above halite domes honestly

[native shard]

blackguarding is hungry work

[native shard]

i think a much better idea is to just make salt licks. Areas with maybe a stack of salt, but you need a knife to scrape it off rocks like saltpeter

maybe you could add a processing tree, to not make it easy

halite domes should be hard to find but permanent sources of salt imo

salt licks are found basically globally, since most herbivores dont get enough minerals from eating plants they need calcium/phophorus/ etc for bone/antler development

[north patrol]

yeah, i was actually right the first time, but i missed the mulwithstacksize condition so it was without that context lol

[gritty barn]

Having salt you can collect from a lakebed in the way that it used to be an inland ocean. 🤔