Female Character

[lofty whale]

Referring to full dwarf beards

[round acorn]

You are as wrong as people who think race has any significant biological reality beyond skin color

[lofty whale]

If you want to give yourself peach fuzz or pectorals as a man that’s fine but kinda outside the purview of block game detail

[round acorn]

Irrelevant???

[clever gyro]

This is seraph not human, dwarf woman have beards so why not this fictional character lol, there is mod for human character

[round acorn]

I'm not talking about the game. I'm saying you are wrong about this in regards to real biology

[lofty whale]

Did not say it shouldn’t be allowed. Just that calling them male/female seraphs shouldn’t be a problem

[round acorn]

Sure, though I would prefer each of the features being enabled/disabled separately

[lofty whale]

I don’t see why they’d put breasts on the facial hair selection to begin with

I assume it’d have it’s own slider or something

[round acorn]

But also your bigoted circular reasoning thing really pisses me off.

[lofty whale]

Okay, I’m saying the discrepancies you’re talking about are minimal and not relevant. If you have a hormonal imbalance great enough to sport an entire dwarf beard as a woman that’s not normal, if you have breasts large enough to be distinguished from pectoral muscles as a man that’s also abnormal. Male seraphs no boob, female seraph yes boob. Simple

I don’t really care

[lofty whale]

As of current that’s already how it is and I don’t see why they’d change that

[round acorn]

"Sex is binary"
"Here's counterexamples"
"Those counterexamples don't count"
"Why don't these count"
"they're rare deviations from the binary"

The justification for maintaining this fictional binary system is circular and thus invalid

Ok whatever I'm done talking about this

[lofty whale]

It, again, really isn’t relevant here. Just have a male and female seraph, without and with breasts respectively. You’re welcome to mod in whatever else you want

[clever gyro]

That's why I didn't like breasts idea, I liked seraph being genderless, not again gender wars in simple pixel game ><

[lofty whale]

I’m not here for political or social debate

[lofty whale]

That’s what leotard is for

[clever gyro]

lol

[kindred temple]

Reiterating my comment from long before, if the seraphs are genderless, I would want that only if it's a lore reason, not because of people arguing on a Discord in an endless circle. Plenty of games have the options to have masculine/feminine character traits. Monster Hunter, other voxel games on Steam, Dark Souls, etc. etc. and they don't have any of these conversations because they had these options from the start.

The lore version could be an interesting take.

But I also want people to be normal about bodies, especially a feature that roughly 50% of the population has. This isn't jiggle physics or melons or whatever is going on with ZZZ's trailers or any of that silliness (and marketing to influence spending habits). This is (in one potential implementation) just a static triangular prism selected by a drop-down menu.

Also, being ||an alchemical seraphs brought forth from some other place beyond, reborn by dangerous alchemy is a very fun concept. I loved reading the old horror novels like Frankenstein and THe Island of Dr. Monreau, and this is right up this alley. ||But again, this coolness doesn't exclude feminine traits being available during customization.

[fresh jungle]

should beards be removed from vs?

[clever gyro]

Here you go again …

[fresh jungle]

i mean... valid question, no?

if you dont want them to have breasts because you want seraphim to be genderless, they shouldnt have beards

[clever gyro]

Look previous discussion about mixing breasts with beards

So we can add breast but remove beards :p

[fresh jungle]

i saw. i still dont understand what u mean here

[fresh jungle]

?

[clever gyro]

More genderless chracter the better otherwise it is begining of controversy…

[fresh jungle]

so beards should be removed?

[clever gyro]

Beards alone didn’t start discusion. I don’t like to argue anymore.

[dire wedge]

Yeah I don’t think anyone is going to be removing beards to justify the game not having breasts, that would be quite a backward and near sighted response to the subject. And I think we’re fooling ourselves over what is ultimately not really a controversial subject at all, it’s been quite standard practice for games to offer some kind of spectrum of gender characteristics, for obvious and benign reasons.

The idea of making the seraphs “genderless” is simply not really an option given the existence of the game’s huge beards. The solution is obviously to just flesh out some more options so it’s not so egregiously lopsided.

[clever gyro]

If the seraphs are based on Christian mythology (like type of angel) "As spirit beings, angels do not have biological sexes or reproductive capabilities". I don't know if devs used this reference but it would explain no breast, but existing of beards. I always assumed that's the reason they look like that.

[kindred temple]

The cycle repeats

This is more likely based on alchemical seraphim. Someone posted an article about these many, many posts ago

[fresh jungle]

exactly my point

[fresh jungle]

why would that explain beards

[clever gyro]

it's not reproductive organ

[fresh jungle]

nor are breasts

they are both secondary sex characteristics

[clever gyro]

they are used to feed babies so kind they are

[fresh jungle]

which are, by definition, not reproductive organs

[fresh jungle]

that isnt how it works lmao

[errant hull]

Idk people are going way to deep into this.
The seraphim are meant to be androgynous. You can argue the specifities, but that’s usually shown in games and movies as having secondary sexual characteristics downplayed.

Beards are a result of lots of testosterone. If a girl takes too much testosterone, she will grow a beard.
Boobs are a result of lots of estrogen. If a boy takes estrogen, he will grow breasts.

Vintage Story logic:
Beard = androgynous
Breast = not androgynous

I think the cool idea of the seraphim being androgynous in lore is getting in the way of what people really want.

[marsh oriole]

10000% agree. this is less a comment on the game but i'm tired of only 'masculine' traits being viewed as androgynous.

also, saying "b b b but androgyny" is silly when breasts are, in my opinion, only culturally gendered - 30-60% of actual real life men have gynecomastia, aka developed breast tissue. seraphs aren't actual real life people yes, but theyre very obviously meant to resemble them, and other 'gendered' features like beards exist already

the "only male/female toggle" idea ive seen thrown in here is.... just extremely, extremely silly when paired with the androgynous player character imo and clearly only politically motivated. you can make a male or female character if you want even when there's just a breast and beard toggle, and you can also make them fucking purple. it's a sandbox game. more customization doesn't remove your ability to make Man But Blue lmao

[fresh jungle]

ideally id like to see a "body type" dropdown

[round acorn]

I would like toggles for each individual feature on the model. Like how we have a "beard type" we could also have "chest type" and "hips type"

there are minecraft mods that change the model and generate new armor models from the original ones (I think by duplicating part of the original model and rotating it) for new body shapes so that shouldn't be an issue

[errant hull]

Small
Medium
Large
Outward facing
Tubular
Sagging
Waifu
Round
Close set
Athletic
Supernumerary
Lopsided
Flat chested

Probably doesn’t need to go into that much detail…

[round acorn]

could also just have a submenu with sliders for different attributes

like size, offset, rotation, rows

[kindred temple]

Yeah, just give us a chest drop-down added with those already present along with more drop-downs for other attributes/aspects for the character.

And also maybe some cool tattoo options

[lofty whale]

Unless husbandry is extended to include seraphs (it won’t that would be weird) they are effectively androgynous regardless of how you make them look

Unless someone makes, like, a medieval dynasty style mod, which would be neat, but…

[lofty whale]

I think flat, small, medium, and large are fine… I don’t want to imagine what waifu means…

[dire wedge]

Exactly this. Seraphim being androgynous is one of those ideas that sounds cool on paper but then you’re running into a brick wall of people inevitably wanting creative options for character creation in your blocky sandbox game. That was always going to happen. And it’s exacerbated by the fact that there are plenty of options to represent one gender but not another.

[fresh jungle]

"waifu"? really?

[fresh jungle]

i doubt this would be added. based on existing customisation options, id expect 1-2 dropdown menus at most

for chest/body

[marsh oriole]

yeah tbh even just a toggle would suffice

it doesnt have to be in-depth, the models are pretty simple

[errant hull]

If there is dial customization for breast size, there are going to be seraphim with big watermelon boobs.

But I would rather a gooner use something made for the benefit of a girl than a girl use something made for the benefit of a gooner.

Some overlap is unavoidable

[lofty whale]

A dropdown with flat/small/medium/large is more than enough imo

wtf does tubular even mean

like… cylinders?

[errant hull]

Many of these are jokes based off of the beard styles

[lofty whale]

Fair

Was not reading it was a joke lmao

[errant hull]

Even supernumerary?

[lofty whale]

I just figured he was a degenerate

Once you make that assumption nothing is really off the table

Even waifu

[errant hull]

Idk I was just thinking about the drifter girls mod.

[lofty whale]

I mean, if you want to make a gooner MOD, it’s none of my business

Hell, give the drifters breasts too

I don’t care

They gotta come from somewhere beyond the portals right

[errant hull]

That’s what I mean… if you have unlimited customization… this is what will happen.

Small, medium and large is probably the best idea.

[lofty whale]

Lara croft ts

[round acorn]

there is no such thing as a degenerate

why are some of you so hateful

[lofty whale]

Dawg he said he was being hyperbolically degen himself 💀

He listed waifu boobs 💀

[lofty whale]

🗿

Are we fr rn

If, in a fake hypothetical world which isn’t this one, someone unironically made a request to add tubular lopsided breasts to vanilla, I would absolutely call them a degenerate, yes. That hypothetical person who doesn’t exist deserves all the hate they hypothetically receive

[round acorn]

no actually I would not say they deserve it. I would say its an unreasonably specific request for devs to go out of their way to make it, but I would not consider them a bad person in any way.

[wintry barn]

I like that this thread is producing so many ideas for character customization, I would love to be able to make my dude a little fat balding guy lol,
Anyways idk why ppl are against triangle boobs in a block game, does not take much searching on Steam to find MUCH more discussing things lol.

199th 💡

[round acorn]

Once you visit enough of the internet, you realize that there is no end to what people will consider "disgusting", no matter how tame it is. You also realize that no matter how weird people are, nearly all of these weird people are harmless, and many are even better than most people. It leads me to the conclusion that nothing can be wrong unless it harms another real living person, and anything else should be not just tolerated but defended.

[wintry barn]

Ye my point was that ppl shouldn't complain bc is a simple feature that doesn't go into that real far territory.

[round acorn]

yeah

[clever gyro]

Didn't you play much with males as a girl a lot? they like to chose big boobs characters and sexualize everything >< I hope at last VS boobs will be square and unattractive.

[lofty whale]

Apparently they’re going to be tubular and lopsided

Could be worse. Could be jenny mod

[clever gyro]

I forgot that players still thought it was sexy and attractive ...

[dire wedge]

I think we’re severely overthinking a benign feature at this point. One that I believe Saraty would be the one to handle, who I see zero reason to doubt her ability to implement appropriately.

[errant hull]

Yeah we are overthinking it. Boobs, maybe in a couple of sizes, is a reasonable request.

[fresh jungle]

what is wrong with lopsided boobs? how would that make someone a degenerate?
i just thought that "waifu" was a gross term to use.

[fresh jungle]

or maybe a body type dropdown, with some body types having boobs

[errant hull]

It was a joke about poor implementation, perhaps made in bad taste.

[fresh jungle]

i see

[lofty whale]

Those were options mentioned previously by someone else as a joke, which I was referencing

[shell leaf]

i highly doubt there will be a size slider but being able to larp having pecs by setting the slider really low would be funny lol

this is something feasible through modding (and probably has already been done???)

there's a minecraft mod that adds them and it works with armour (modded included) by basically just using the existing textures

but having it be officially in the game would be nice

but i think asking for like. boob variants or customisation is. way too much.

boob or no boob i feel is good enough variety for a game that up until now has been pretty clear on no boobage

being able to choose the angle, size, height or gap of the bitties is not necessary to have the desired effect

although i do think this could be a good way to introduce more player variation in general

bodytypes and height as an overarching update would be really cool

[dire wedge]

Yeah this is a good opportunity to just introduce a larger package of variety for character creation in general. The current options feel severely limited and samey.

Not to bring up the Other Other block game, but Hytale’s character creation variety adds an absolutely enormous amount of individuality for players.

Character expressions, for example, feels like a very narrow range in VS. The faces tend to look very samey because it doesn’t explore the range of possibilities very far. A more comprehensive selection would include large eyes, small eyes, squinty eyes, big smile, huge teeth, toothless, tiny mouth, big ears, small ears, etc. It kinda needs to go further into the extremes with these to feel less samey.

Skin colors could use a bigger range too. The current options feel weirdly random, narrow in scope, and arbitrary.

[wet tundra]

Honestly I don't know why facial expressions are an arbitrary choice and not either a menu the player can change at any time, or dynamic depending on context (eg, look angry/hurt specifically when taking damage)
It's just kinda funny you have to use the .charsel command to change your expression lol

[dire wedge]

Yeah the expressions should be dynamic. But even like, eye size, spacing apart, ear size, position, etc. really could use a lot more variety.

[wet tundra]

Personally I usually just advocate for smaller character changes and not larger ones (like height, precise facial feature/hair customisation) because it's a lot less effort on the devs' part to implement smaller ones (eye changes would probably necessitate masks/glasses having alternate models for different spacings, height changes would probably require all clothing to have extra layers of pixels added unless the current Seraph height was the maximum)
But that isn't to say I don't think more customisation would be cool to see

Height changes I think would also be theoretically possible (if a little janky) provided the current height was the maximum. The clothes the traders wear are actually all internally sized to the Seraphs, and the game then trims off layers of pixels to fit them to the traders. It's a little weird (especially in the elbow and knee areas, since that's where the trimming happens) but it does work.

[dire wedge]

Height and weight variety would be nice, but I agree not as crucial imo. But I really think we should have some greater comprehensive variety in stuff like eye size, ear size, spacing, position, shapes, expressions, skin color, basic gender builds, etc.

I think it really needs to be stressed that, blocky games are built on a fundamentally creative sandbox framework, with the stated goal of eventually enabling hundreds or thousands of players to play on a single world together. There is simply no way around the inevitable need for creative expression and character variety, that’s as fundamental as having a decent variety of materials and colors to build with. The whole premise of the game basically demands it.

[wet tundra]

Honestly in relation to that, I think a couple alternate class sets you could pick and choose pieces of would be nice.
When a big multiplayer world is in its infancy and everyone is still in their starting outfits, it's sometimes hard to tell players apart at a glance since they're all dressed the same. It's also not really lore accurate, given all the starting outfits aside from the Blackguard don't seem to be any kind of uniform.

I've been thinking for a while now that it'd be nice to have 1-2 alternate sets for each class, that players could pick and choose between. (Eg, if you're playing Malefactor you could choose mask 1-3, shirt 1-3, pants 1-3, etc).

Not at all an essential feature and would require a good bit of effort from the artists, but I just think it'd be cool if players dressed a bit different from each other when starting out.

[stone moss]

Boobs should be the default on option as well

Just for sheer

I'm absolutely exhausted of the constant thing of default (man) and alternative (woman)

[teal sigil]

Wouldn't default boobs be the same in reverse?
Considering Seraphim aren't mammals, boobs would be the odd option

[stone moss]

Food storage.

Like camels.

[dire wedge]

Totally support this.

[lost spruce]

have it do that part of the body isnt there until you select one of the options so none are the default

[dire wedge]

I think there should be enough options that just scrambling them with the Randomize selector would net you equal parts feminine equal parts masculine traits on average.

A ton of VS’s core progression was very likely first innovated by women in the first place. Pit kilns, clayforming, ceramics, basket weaving, knapping, agriculture, etc. It’s pretty silly to think it was men figuring all this out.

Literally half of human history is a product of women, it feels really wrong to me to have such a lopsided selection of masculine traits for character creation but almost no distinctly feminine traits.

Especially for a game whose whole identity prides itself on a realistic reflection of history. It’s a big egregious blind spot imo.

[errant hull]

Yeah height and weight would probably need hitboxes scaled, and for combat advantage, everyone would be tiny.

[teal sigil]

• Realistic reflection of history
• Wake up in a field, scour ruins for leftovers, hi Dave

I really feel you all are looking for non-existant gender discrimination. But I won't pretend like breasts would be a problematic addition; It'll feel out of place at most, until we are accustomed to boobed Seraphim

[errant hull]

Nah. This isn’t conscious spite from the devs.
There’s just a lot of girl players here who would like to look more feminine.

I mean they already did it for traders.

I know it’s meant to separate humans from seraphim but I think the height and blue skin sort of do that already.

[teal sigil]

If the devs feel like boobed Seraphim go against the nature of their story, I would let them. There is always the mod.
It might be nice for customization reasons. I wouldn't like it thematically, but I don't even play MP and won't pretend to care too much. Just won't stand for the misguided accusations of agnatism .

[errant hull]

What is agnatism?

[teal sigil]

Male-only or sth

I'm no native speaker and don't know if machism is a word that exist

Also nice alliteration ☺️

[marsh oriole]

i get that, but male defaultism is an extremely common unconscious bias that id argue the majority of people hold.
like how many times have you called an animal a "he" without knowing its sex, for example?

it's obviously not a malicious thing or even intentional, but it's something that should be consciously addressed

its also part of what i and others here have said with male features being considered more androgynous than female features. male defaultism means we're more likely to view femininity as a deviation from some imagined middle ground, when masculinity is far less noticed or scrutinized in a genderless character

i just think itd be nice to see more games break away from those assumptions that have been ingrained in us

[dire wedge]

Yeah nobody is accusing maliciousness here, it’s just overlooked. I also don’t get the sense that the devs feel that feminine physiques “go against their story”, the existence of huge beards and other masculine traits suggests that they haven’t looked at it too deeply. If anything they had a vague idea that they should be “androgynous” but then didn’t adhere to the idea at all, so now we just have a very lopsided selection of masculine traits.

Also, pretending that the Vintage Story doesn’t pride itself on realistic historically accurate implementation of elements is just silly, even if it embraces some fantasy themes. Neolithic technology, knapping, earthenware, pit kilns, agricultural seasons, crop rotation, wattle & daub, masonry, etc. it’s very obviously steeped in accurately reflecting human historical development. Even the hairstyles of the character creation are reflective of cultural trends of human history. And since it’s already embraced a number of masculine options, I think that overlooking feminine options feels a bit egregious.

[round acorn]

Big agree

[steep cliff]

Really good points made here about the lopsided customization & male-as-default bias.

Also, if its important that seraphs be androgynous, then really they should all have boobs AND beards. Can't get rid of them, can only customize them. Far more androgynous than current seraphs 🙂‍↕️

[teal sigil]

I don't think it ought to reflect the human hi-story in gender as well. It is its own thing, a "Vintage Story", and the Seraphim don't necessarily need to pretend to be like those that came before them, even if the materials around them are the same (promoting parallel industry/culture)
But I see the point in male features being no less gendered. Could still see the lack of breast as a lack of any (gendering) attribute (do Seraphim have nipples), but outside of that, there isn't much distinction - there is beardlessness, which by nature is unvariable and numerically inferior in options to the beards.
Finally: Boobs? Why not

[teal sigil]

And removing options would go against the purpose of this thread...

[dire wedge]

This is an idea that sounds clever on paper running into the brick wall reality of what players will naturally and inevitably want in a blocky sandbox game. The very format of the game makes the necessity for a satisfactory range of player creative expression an unavoidable demand.

Lore is great but if the particular idea you have is going to effectively stifle player expression or creativity it’s naturally going to create problems.

They need to be conceived in a way that comfortably coexists with the game. I’d argue this arbitrary narrowness of options does not work well with the natural demands of the game.

[teal sigil]

What idea do you mean? I didn't propose anything, just told my view on the lore of VS. Though I can't personally "take in" the need for boobs as an option of customization, I do see it is senseful as such, just not necessarily in terms of "lore". This can't and shouldn't stand in the way of player freedom; you're correct in saying it is most of all a Sandbox, so in the consideration of story vs. sandbox, I would prioritize the latter

[teal sigil]

What idea do you mean? I didn't propose anything, just told my view on the lore of VS. Though I can't personally "take in" the need for boobs as an option of customization, I do see it is senseful as such, just not necessarily in terms of "lore". This can't and shouldn't stand in the way of player freedom; you're correct in saying it is most of all a Sandbox, so in the consideration of story vs. sandbox, I would prioritize the latter

[lusty thunder]

Easiest option is just to add breasts to two-piece underwear texture and few will even notice the difference. It already stands in for 'female customisation option'

[clever gyro]

But I want to have a flat female seraph

[teal sigil]

If we're going customization, might as well make it separate

Though that raises the question how bare boobs look

Mighz be too much now that I think about

[teal sigil]

Going back to this, I disagree. Settings for eyes, ears etc. seem to extensive for me; the Seraphim are already highly unique owing to the colors and, secondarily, hairstyles, having fine details would harm their "structural harmony" which I like, as they all feel like kindred creations this way. Moreso, the Skyrim CC would feel so out of place in a block game, which is simplistic; the chisel is already an uniquely detail-rich mechanic in the genre, and such fineties would oversteo the boundary from voxels to pixelated (which might feel out of place in a block world)
Height seems fine though, as long as it doesn't cause technical problems with the hitboxes (might not worth the trouble to consider in designing weapons, dungeons, blocks...)

We also have skin/eye colors and expressions. Especially the latter could be expanded, but combined with clothes (which will be expanded upon as well) there is a great variety of choice, except for boobs (which speaks for this suggestion)

[glossy idol]

+1

gimme boobs

[errant hull]

Make the boob option appear only when you select two piece underwear if people don’t like the idea of bare boobs.
Probably would raise the least issues.

And if you want nudity, for authenticity or other reasons, that is now modding territory.

[glossy idol]

waiiiiiiittt

just do 2 piece or 2 piece w boobs

4 options for undergarments and no extra choice needed

[fluid ledge]

Then it’s either smaller or just the regular two-piece

[steep cliff]

Boobs can be in leotards too

[glossy idol]

truth nuke

[lofty whale]

Aye stop reacting to shit from like last week dawg you’re blowing up my phone

[lofty whale]

[round acorn]

You can turn off notifications for reactions

[kindred temple]

You have notifications on?

[lofty whale]

Negatory I have it set to @‘s only

Just discord not working properly, as usual

[round acorn]

There is a separate setting somewhere else for reactions. But I can't remember where it is

I think

[fast lava]

Everybody be talking about boobs but tbh i think VS's characters should have noses

Just a simple angled cube coming off the face

[wet tundra]

Weirdly enough the mummified head clutter item (to my knowledge only obtainable in creative mode) and the siren boat figurehead both do have nose cubes added to their faces

[pure remnant]

Well, there would've been women who were in the Resonance Archives.

[lusty thunder]

Resonance Archive is trans conspiracy, making women androgynous or masculine!!
Can't believe my favorite block game is now WOKE!!!

[pure remnant]

Need I remind you that Actual Seraphim are Angelic beings and can take any form they want.

[old bloom]

i just think a modesty toggle would do fine.
some people dont mind bare breasts, and prefer not to be hard stuck on the two piece look. and obvs others do mind and wouldnt want to see it.
this does lead to a conversation about breasts and their social stigma, though.

[patent python]

It is true, beards are a masculine trait. Women who have beards have PCOS (though not all women with PCOS will grow a beard), a medical condition that causes their body to produce testosterone, a male hormone. Just because an anomaly exists does not disprove the rule.

[old bloom]

Most older women I know grow beards. It is not unique to pcos.

A beard is just hair, and some people can grow it better.

[patent python]

How do you know they don't have PCOS? You're making (wrong) assumptions here because a lot of older women experience PCOS. Also, older women experience a drop in estrogen and a rise in testosterone once they hit menopause, hence the beard growth. Again, male hormones.

[old bloom]

Because I know them and I socialize with people? 🤷‍♂️

Testosterone is present in everyone, as well. Your hormone wash changes a lot about you, but those things dont make you inherently one thing or the other.

[patent python]

Oh yes, I'm sure they're telling you all about their pcos symptoms.

Yes testosterone is present in everyone but PCOS and the menopause cause an increase in those hormones.

[old bloom]

I mean I imagine they would, since I have pcos and its not an uncommon topic for me.

and when they say "i dontt have pcos but so and so does " and so on

🤷‍♂️

[old bloom]

My point. Testosterone does not a man make.

[lost spruce]

why are you so snarky and aggressive lmao

[marsh oriole]

so if beards are a male trait, then female traits should also exist, because seraphs are intended to be androgynous

regardless of that though, beards on women being 'an exception to the rule' literally means theyre not an exclusively male thing, that was their point lol. sure most women won't grow beards but the fact that some might makes it a commonality, not an exclusive trait to one sex

also honestly i don't think a video game character creator should only represent the "standard". if a woman with facial hair wants to see herself properly represented in a game, so be it

[dire wedge]

It’s a sort of moot point given that breasts are also not an exclusively female thing either. It’s all a bit gray, but that dimension of the topic is a little pointless to this conversation. Players are naturally going to want to role play their characters, usually matching their irl gender, so having a ton of options for one but not the other is just inevitably going to create problems. Especially since all the male traits like beards pretty well negates any intended theoretical idea of them being “androgynous”.

[marsh oriole]

^ like i said above 30-60% of men have gynecomastia

[patent python]

The exception proves the rule.

[marsh oriole]

the 'rule' applies only to the majority though lol

[lost spruce]

rules for thee but not for me vibes

[old bloom]

Well, the estimation is that over 13% of afab folks have pcos.
It is severely underdiagnosed.
Ignoring those without pcos that also have beards, which is a large majority of women who experienced menopause, that is still hundreds of millions of people that can and do grow beards because of an """anomaly""" as you call it. that doesnt seem very abnormal to me.
Considering how many women over the age of 50 just grow beards regardless, idk.

You can try to argue its "abnormal" but it really isnt.

Its just societal expectations, which is a little silly.

[sick narwhal]

Holy moly folks. We are getting bogged down in very technical discussion right now.

I understand how some people might be concerned about the addition of breasts leaning into sexualization given how popular culture in the west treats the female form (read: badly), but at the end of the day OP's request was just meant to be additional player character customization and a degree of female gender presentation. I'm sure there are ways it can be implemented that are tasteful, and nothing in the lore thus far prohibits female seraphs.

Ultimately, while I don't feel the need for this personally, I don't think it's a crazy request.

[old bloom]

Apologies. Its just silly when people try to argue against wider customization options because of reductive views on who can and cant have certain features.

I think if the devs want more varied bodies, itd be great. i just wouldnt want to be forced to use one feature to enable another, personally.

[heady ocean]

seraphs should be androgynous

[round acorn]

They currently aren't, and also players don't care about that

[dire wedge]

Sounds clever in theory, but they’re not. The “androgynous” ship has sailed.

I had zero trouble making a pretty masculine looking character with a huge beard. Players shouldn’t have any trouble making feminine looking characters either. Currently the options are quite lopsided in favor of masculine traits.

[marsh oriole]

the whole argument here is if androgynous characters can have beard they can have boob, lol

again, the "androgynous = no female traits" male defaultism thing is a bias you absolutely should be aware you have.

[old bloom]

i mean, some players do. i would prefer the androgyny. 🤷
im just also fine with customization cause thats what a lotta folks want.

[old bloom]

i think the idea of no gender dimorphism is interesting. it makes me think of like fantasy where dwarves all have beards, so most non dwarves have no idea. no sex based traits and such.

but like thats just for fun.

And it seems kinda clear breasts are intended to be added at this point

I am curious if different heights are planned, seraphs seem to be intentionally lanky and tall

so probly not

[round acorn]

I like it even more in fantasy when characters have things that look like sex based traits but are actually completely independent of sex

[marsh oriole]

player heights would be fun, but would probably require things like mount animations to be reworked

[old bloom]

this too is also fun!

[old bloom]

yeah, defs something to consider. i loooove large amount of choice, but i feel it would be fair to have some constraints to help prevent major reworks.

[marsh oriole]

obv im only basing this on playermodellib so it might not actually work like this, but the mounted position seems to be based on the bottom of the character rather than where their actual hips are

[dire wedge]

On that note I’d love for a couple different heights:

1.5 Block Height (Halfling)
2.0 Block Height (Standard)
2.5 Block Height (Giant)

I think these are large enough differences to feel distinct but not so enormous they are impractical or goofy for game design. Though if it feels like too much then 1.75 / 2.0 / 2.25 would probably do well.

If they moved at the same speed as standard, the short one would appear speedy scampering around, while the tall one would appear lumbering slowly, so I think it would be naturally self balancing.

Giants could have a little extra health since they would be a little easier to target, while halflings, or cherubs, could have a little less since they have the advantage of being harder to target.

[teal sigil]

Tbf, the trouble is leaving out a beard and adding a distinctly female long hair
With male longhaired being distinguished by their beard, usually
But it does difficultate expressing (identitary, as there is no biological) gender in short-haired females

For height, I like the seraphs being creepily lanky and as similar amongst themselves as they are different to the humans. I like the idea lf them being similar and maybe even eerie, which is why I don't want noses, breasts or height difference which would further individualize and humanize them. But I do see the truth in individualization being important in a sandbox game

But height mightn't be as important and more difficult to implement/work around (2.25 characters in small doors?)

[dire wedge]

i'm personally in favor of just allowing different types of creatures altogether, like a proper MMO (which is something anego has stated they'd like to achieve)

i picture a whole ecosystem of different types of players, humanoids, seraphs, humans, etc.

i dont really subscribe to this idea that we need some agonizingly narrow set of options because "lore"

like, expand the lore. flesh out the world a bit

players are obviously not going to just want One Kind of character, especially in a large server setting, player variety is key

you could maybe even have those other races Unlockable after the story is completed

[shell leaf]

i generally think the largest non-modded height should still allow you to walk into 2 block gaps easily, i don't think i'd like having 2.5 block height even if you could sneak to get through doors

standard height being like 1.8, tallest being 2.0, shortest being 1.6 would work fine

[dire wedge]

then dont use it

problem solved

[teal sigil]

If races are to be added, they ought to be freely usable. The story is "voluntary" in VS and shouldn't lock such a key feature behind it

[shell leaf]

i'm not against height being added in a much more official capacity to allow super tall or super short characters to the point of it changing things outside of just representation

[dire wedge]

its interesting that the game has 3 block high doors already, so it already has the basis to accomodate a 2.5 height player in some circumstances

[shell leaf]

i just don't think it fits what vs is going for in the base game iykwim

[dire wedge]

a little crouching would get the player through a normal door

which should be expected if you pick the Giant character type

[shell leaf]

maybe a setting to simply uncap the height limit between like 1.4-2.8 or whatever

or even higher

and having the default height be a non-intrusive thing

would probably work fine

[teal sigil]

"This option might lock you out of some places, deal with it"
That's a bad stance for an official addition. It would actively discourage this customization you so wish for
Besides, doors shouldn't be the exact default size anyway. Doors are usually larger than those who use them anyway

[dire wedge]

it wouldnt lock you out. you can crouch. any story structures can get some pretty mild reworking

[shell leaf]

i get what they mean, and i think it'd be cool if vintage story had lore set up for different races

which atm it only has human and seraph

i don't think they're going for typical fantasy elements for dwarves and elves and giants and all that

[dire wedge]

the point about 3 block high doors is that the game already has infrastructure to accomodate players if they chose to be 2.5 height

[shell leaf]

yes, but they're also locked behind metal

[teal sigil]

Which need nails! They are a commodity

[dire wedge]

Cherubs fits exactly into the Seraphim themes actually

a Giant fits into pretty much every lore on earth

[shell leaf]

regardless this is off topic from the female character stuff

probably should be a separate suggestion

that i'm sure has already been made\

[teal sigil]

It does surprise me to hear that, but I suppose VS always had an MP aspect

Rename this to "more character customization" as all of this goes back to it

And poses similar, if not the samd questions

[shell leaf]

i can unfortunately understand the view of not wanting to add boobs to your game for playable characters since there's always going to be 2 corners of the internet that'll be weird about it

(people who are EXTREMELY against it and people who are. uh... VERY for it, let's just say)

but i don't think those are a valid enough excuse for not including them in some capacity

[dire wedge]

doesnt seem surprising to me. the infinite sandbox format of the game inevitably leads to wanting an mmo experience. that's the logical conclusion of such a sandbox game

[shell leaf]

just don't make it weird by making them particularly large or jiggle or things like that lmfao

[dire wedge]

lol

i think saraty would handle it fine

Petite
Moderate
Full

something liek that would work

[shell leaf]

a lot of these is just it'd be nice to have the assets in the game for height/width/boob i guess for people who want those things to be implemented to have an easier way to do that with official support that'd work with all mods off rip

i think just having 1 boob option would be preferential

[dire wedge]

i always lean in favor of variety. the character creation options are severely lacking imo

[shell leaf]

i do agree that character customisation in general needs changes

[dire wedge]

it could also be tied more into a whole physique rather than focusing specifically on breasts. just have a couple different physique options

[shell leaf]

i don't think having full custom faces with like eye width and things of that nature is in the cards but

that'd be nice

and more colour options are 1000% needed

it should just be RGB to be honest

with default options for seraph and human only

[dire wedge]

hytale pulled it off pretty fantastically, imo. their character creation is really nice and the combinations really create a huge amount of different personalities

[shell leaf]

if it gets added i'm going to be happy regardless of how much customization they add to it

i just think if they do add such a thing they should probably do it in combination with height and weight/bodytype

and whatever else customization related

instead of dripfeeding these changes one by one

[teal sigil]

They'd probably do "The Bodytype Update" with a full rework of Character Creation

[shell leaf]

i'd hope so atleast

[teal sigil]

Still, I do not see the need for such changes. We have colors, hairstyles, clothing and, mos mt importantly in any block game for me, external expression in the world around the player. The chisel already makes VS better in this regard than any other block game I know of.
We must be talking on different frequencies, for I do not see any "agony of choicelessness" or lacking customization in VS: Any MP setting I've seen, the combination of Color/Hair/Clothes/Name, plus the players voice (if using VC) and, in general, how they behave already made each character unique.
Like, bodytypes on the more extreme and height on the moderate end feel weird to think of for me, but well.

[dire wedge]

the 1.5 / 2.0 / 2.5 heights are if they wanted to lean into a more thematical lore approach, with someting like Cherubs and Giants. which i think is cool, i really dont share this idea that everything has to be so narrow in scope, and i also think it will be self filtering, the number of people who choose to go with a Giant or Cherub would be pretty rare. but for just generic non-thematic variety i think you could easily add 1.75 / 2.0 / 2.25 heights

like, keep in mind, this is an entire universe they're building. worlds have a huge amount of variety

[shell leaf]

with the armour rework they're doing there will be a ton of more "practical" ways to do character customisation stuff but would say that at the very least a way to represent women/generally boob-having individuals is important

[dire wedge]

yeah i agree

some female physiques i think are the bare minimum at this point

[teal sigil]

"Self-filtering" is no argument; just look at the characters in Ark, which are to 80% exceedingly bulky or dwarfish, 90% broad. This is also the point, a feature exists to be used.

[teal sigil]

That is, to me the best addition since I joined the game (late 2025)

[shell leaf]

that's not a lot of additions then

that's like 1 update isnt it

[teal sigil]

External expression feels so much more fitting for a "hardcore survival" game focused so much on work and its processes

1.21 with fishing and custom shelves

The latter being very nice as well

[shell leaf]

not particularly? i'd understsand if they were asking for clothing stuff and things of that nature

but

they're not

they aren't going "let us choose a wide variety of clothing as we start off"

they just want representation

nothing wrong with that

[teal sigil]

That's the point of progression, you unlock options
Will have to keep it simple upon starting the game

[teal sigil]

Nothing inherently right in my eyes as well, that's the point
Besides, if it is representation of the real world, it kind of defeats the purpose of immersing oneself into the fantasy blocky floating island rust world

[shell leaf]

..... and you want us to unlock boobs????

like

wdym

if you're suggesting that you leave extra hair options and things of that nature behind a tech tier i'd say that's an odd take but one i can see reason behind

[shell leaf]

i don't see how more customisation doesn't allow you to immerse yourself

in fact i'd say it's... more immersive??

for me atleast

[dire wedge]

i think my argument about the Giant and Cherub heights being self filtering is perfectly valid and solid. by your own admission fewer players are going to want to deal with a character who has trouble walking through doors. a lot of people arent going to want to deal with the different drawbacks, just like most players in VS typically choose the Commoner class. this will lead to people who've selected Giant or Cherub class being rarer on average. that's self filtering

[round acorn]

A lot of dungeons don't work with players that are different heights

[shell leaf]

yeah, imo the height would have to be fully visual

[round acorn]

For example the RA has a lot of passages you already have to crouch to get through

[shell leaf]

pvp and things of that nature would also be harmed by having different hitboxes

[round acorn]

It's also relevant to game balance. A small player can dig faster because they can fit in 1 block spaces

[open knoll]

I think the "it's a game first" rhetoric has rotten some people's brains a little into thinking that something being "gamified" increases its value or validity when it can do the opposite in plenty of situations

[dire wedge]

unless you compensate it slightly, like i suggested. slightly less HP for tiny height, slightly more for huge giant height, due to hitboxes. a balance can be found there

[shell leaf]

it would still effect the game balance and need tweaking

[dire wedge]

yes

thats game design

[shell leaf]

i think if you wanted to do it you'd have to lean HARD into it

[dire wedge]

i also dont think it would need all that much

[shell leaf]

which i feel makes it being added much less likely

[dire wedge]

the HP comepnsation alone would do quite a lot i think

its also already something implemented into Classes so a little HP tweak isnt exactly new territory for the game

[round acorn]

Variable height are an absolute nightmare for dungeon design

[dire wedge]

i also think players have a habit of exaggerating how difficult or game breaking something might be to implement

[round acorn]

Everything would have to be redone

[dire wedge]

not really

some doorways would be raised

[shell leaf]

yeah that'd mean all the dungeons would have to be rechiseled

[dire wedge]

yeah, a couple doorways

[round acorn]

Yes? Every single 2 block tall passageway has to be changed. Every case where you have to crouch to get through a narrow passage would have to be changed and can no longer force all players to slow down

[dire wedge]

i think we're exaggerating again

[round acorn]

It isn't worth the effort

[shell leaf]

like i said i think it'd be cool as an opt-in feature that otherwise only serves as a visual change

[round acorn]

I'm not. I know how this type of thing goes. You cause massive issues and limitations on design

[dire wedge]

again, not really. if the player can crouch, it isnt crucial for all of them to be reworked

[round acorn]

I think you're not understanding

[dire wedge]

and again, thats another self filtering mechanism, resulting in fewer players willing to choose the size

[shell leaf]

you could also have taller characters simply just crouch harder

have them lean forwards more

[open knoll]

This was specifically in response to needing to unlock character expressions/traits

[round acorn]

The default player is 2 blocks tall and 1.5 when crouching. And gets a speed penalty when crouching. If the heights vary, how does that change?

[dire wedge]

in my mind the 2.5 tall character would crouch to comfortably walk through 2.0 doors

[round acorn]

Self filtering is bad. It is an indication that the feature you have implemented is bad and should not exist

[dire wedge]

you guys yourselves were just complaining that it'd result in too many giants. now you're met with a reason it wouldnt

[round acorn]

Then it is impossible for them to get through the resonance archives

I wasn't complaining about that

If one player's crouching height is another's normal height, you now either make the game impossible for one of them or make it randomly easier for the other

[dire wedge]

i think self filtering is perfectly fine depending on the detail. if you want players on average to more likely be normal height, there's a reason self filtering would land you the results you want

[round acorn]

You can no longer have anything restricted by player height

If you can give players the option to press a button to make the game unplayable, players will self filter by not pressing the button. That's a bad mechanic

[dire wedge]

"make the game impossible" is a funny way to characterize "an occasional doorway"

[shell leaf]

neph

[dire wedge]

that doesnt make the entire game impossible. it makes an occasional doorway slightly cumbersome, or need a rework

[shell leaf]

you literally cannot explore required lore for the game

you CANNOT fit through doorways and you CANNOT break those doorways to be taller

[dire wedge]

then rework it

[shell leaf]

😭

[dire wedge]

CAPSLOCK ACTIVATEWD

yea im aware

so rework it

[shell leaf]

like i said, it should be purely visual

i don't think the player is exactly 2 blocks tall anyways

[round acorn]

Making level design accommodate two different heights is a huge pain and you seemingly cannot understand that. It can technically be done, sure, but at the cost of being incapable of making certain things in your dungeons.

If you have variable heights, you can no longer force all players to crouch through a certain section.

[dire wedge]

i dont think its anywhere near as diffcult as you suggest it is. it literally only matters in the particular circumstance of low overhead passageways

[shell leaf]

having it go between 1.51 (just tall enough that you can't fit through 1.5 block gaps without sneaking) and 1.99 (just tall enough that you can fit through 2 block gaps without sneaking) and having the base character be whatever height it is now is fine

[dire wedge]

i think we're wildly exaggerating again

[shell leaf]

considering they're mostly underground dungeons where claustrophobia is a very necessary feeling to add depth to the experience

it's

pretty important imo

[round acorn]

It also matters in cases where you want to block a player from fitting through but not another entity

It's not that it can't be done, it's that the sacrifices you have to make and effort required will never be worth it

[shell leaf]

and the eye height could create quirks with enemy agro/hit detection and things like that

[round acorn]

Mod it yourself and test the experience with every possible choice and get back to us on it

[dire wedge]

another mechanism i think should be added even outside of this is crawling btw, which would negate the issues with "impossibel" doorways

[shell leaf]

it's feasible to be implemented

[dire wedge]

people freaking out over stuff and yet very often the solutions are pretty simple and straightforward

[shell leaf]

i'm just of the opinion having it affect gameplay would be negative if it wasn't completely part of the focus

with a full class/race rework sure, maybe

[dire wedge]

i think having it affect gameplay could potentially create a lot of fun and dynamic gameplay. which im more interested in than the reflexive naysaying that it couldnt work or would be too hard

[shell leaf]

okay, counterpoint against everything i was saying:

weight could affect gameplay positively

[dire wedge]

ive heard so many people complain things would be super hard or have crazy side effects and then that not be the case

weight could also be cool

[shell leaf]

bulking for the winter, benefits and debuffs for how much you eat

outside of simple body-type

[dire wedge]

oh that is cool 😄

i wanna Bear Up for the winter 😄

[shell leaf]

like if you consistently only eat when you start starving and have generally low-nutritional value

[shell leaf]

you might take more knockback and deal a little bit less damage but move faster

less hp or whatever

[dire wedge]

skinny small guys would go flying if u hit them 😄

[shell leaf]

eating frequently with a well-balanced diet might increase your max satiety, make you stronger but have you move slower

[dire wedge]

like a baseball

[shell leaf]

having the negative and visual effects being an option would of course be preferential with this

wouldn't want it to be forced

[dire wedge]

if u had a player group of 1 big fat guy and 1 tiny skinny guy, the big fat guy could hit them and send them flying

[fresh jungle]

i personally dont think the heights should be changed at all
(shorter = combat advantage, tight spaces too easy, lore issues, story structure issues. taller = pain in the ass, combat disadvantage, story structure issues)
id prefer to see more varied body types

i mean, maybe a very slight visual change to height, i guess?

[dreamy token]

I want hips and fupa

[shell leaf]

i think the solution could be to just have it be randomized between 1.99 and 1.51 or higher

and have it not affect hitboxes

[round acorn]

It's not that it couldn't, but it would absolutely be hard to make it work well and prevent the many different problems it causes

[shell leaf]

atleast default vs opt-in

maybe just a setting to toggle more variation thats gameplay affecting with buffs and debuffs

but by no means should it be the standard option

in my opinion

[fresh jungle]

1.51 still necessitates changes to story structures as well as gameplay advantages
also, seraphim are canonically Really Tall, though i suppose that could be changed

[lost spruce]

1.51?

[shell leaf]

yyyeah thats why i said or higher

[lost spruce]

oh. height.

[dire wedge]

people argued that making the Elk walk smoothly over blocks would be super hard to program and take forever and then a modder did it in like an afternoon. i've come to not really take people seriously when they try to weigh in on how hard something would be. the idea is good irrelevant of alleged difficulty

[fresh jungle]

unless you mean 1.51x and not 1.51 blocks tall - then it would be the other problem

[shell leaf]

no no

1.51 is just the minimum height where sneaking would be required

any lower and itd be an advantage

[fresh jungle]

ahh okay okay. well... i guess something like 1.75-1.99 would work?

[shell leaf]

yeah

[round acorn]

Yeah this is different but like sure I guess. There is a difference between programming difficultly and design difficulty. The difficulty in making height variation is not in making the programming work and not technically even in designing the dungeons, it's in having the thing you get as a result not be bad for gameplay.

[lost spruce]

couldnt you still get some sort of advantage if you chisel a hallway?

[shell leaf]

yeah but honestly im fine with this to an extent

[fresh jungle]

i suppose, but i think that is less of an issue than being able to sprint under slabs

[shell leaf]

if you take the time to chisel a hallway go force others to sneak to get in

thats all u

[fresh jungle]

provided that the sneak height is the same among varied heights

[lost spruce]

i can already see people pre-chiselling a bunch of blocks so only they can sprint under them and place them mid pvp lmao

although that'd probably be more of a meme

[clever gyro]

You cannot finish archives with higher charatcers btw, I played moede ork it don't fit in some places.

[shell leaf]

but like i said simply having it be visual with no hitbox changes is the easiest solution that i think makes the most sense

[fresh jungle]

maybe a camera height change too haha

[shell leaf]

and having an option for a fully balanced version with drawbacks and stuff

[shell leaf]

problem with this is you could hit from a different height and make killholes

[fresh jungle]

ahhhhhh true true

[shell leaf]

which is a problem

i think these interactions would be really cool in a pve setting

[dreamy token]

I can't remember the artist for this but I remember suggesting the seraphs could take a few proportional cues for stuff like the nose, body types, and maybe chin? Last time I posted this I got cooked because everyone thought I wanted seraphs to look like this 😭

[lost spruce]

this is probably beyond scope of the original suggestion annyway

[dire wedge]

i think its part of the same naysaying reflex. almost every cool idea gets met with "it would be sooooo hard tho" and then it usually turns out to not be anywhere near as bad as they were thinking. would it take work? yes. i severely doubt it would be as much as people complain it would be. and i think the resulting gameplay potential is more than worth it

[shell leaf]

and balancing everything around pvp is the worst thing you could do for a pve game like vintage story

[shell leaf]

heights in general would require a lot of work tho. to be frank. way more than elk auto stepping

[round acorn]

Ok fair enough. I don't think it's worth the effort but that's just a matter of opinion

[shell leaf]

youd have to redo the character models, and modify all clothing in the game at the bare minimum

[dire wedge]

for sure, we're all tossing aroudn opinions here

[shell leaf]

so itd be an effort to do

i think an effort worth while for sure

but not at this particular stage in the game

ykwim?

[clever gyro]

you can check differnt high characters in mods, there are plenty of them

[shell leaf]

id rather see that added as a post-story completion update

ykwim?

theres a lot more things that would positively affect the game and its playerbase than height alteration thatd take equal or less effort

until a lot of those are exhausted i think its preferable to just add chest options and move on

if they brought on someone to the team to do it tho??? without impacting other development???

hell yea

[dire wedge]

i'd honestly liek to do a mod like this if i knew how to code it. i have a decent sense of how i think it could be worked out. just adding one Short and one Tall height. a half block difference i think is modest enough.

that said, yeah, some female physiques i think are the bare minimum rn

[shell leaf]

there are several race mods that do similar things to be fair

[lost spruce]

maybe a bit liberal with the use of 'bare minimum' but i agree yeah

[dire wedge]

ya i kinda have an idea how it could fit the VS themes a little more tho, with short ones being Cherubs, etc.

[wet tundra]

Considering it's implied the Seraphs got their name from ||the humans of the new world, especially given their association with Tobias who is considered a Saint||, shorter Seraphs being named Cherubim ||by the new world's settlers due to their height compared to other Seraphim|| would be funny

[teal sigil]

I don't? That wouldn't make sense in my eyes. I meant that the chisel, leather and dyed leather already present this positive impact, gating more behind "progression" would be senseless

[teal sigil]

Can be. I see value in adapting oneself to a dictated layout instead of changing it to own will, with the first meaning to overcome challenge and approach the setting and the latter providing more freedom and being equal to pulling the world closer.
I'd say both means immerse - and the current customization feels to me as a very good balance

[clever gyro]

My son played as one block kobold this was his house, There are plenty of mods with different physical features.

[foggy osprey]

So smoll 🥹

[clever gyro]

Yes small character are funny, but higher one sadly unplayable in places like archives.

[teal sigil]

If less people use it because it's impractical, it's more of a bad design than "filtering"
It'll feel crude and like a mistake. Additionally, cosmetic changes shouldn't come at a gameplay cost, or affect gameplay at all, at most in extremely RP-heavy games, which VS isn't (I mean sth like KCD2).

[foggy osprey]

Yeah when u cant fit anymore trough 2 tiles its hard

[clever gyro]

There is place in kitchen with ladder leading to water tank in archives, I cannot fit there at all. Maybe Elvas could fix this. But he likes a lot tiny spaces....

[shell leaf]

crawling being an option is a good solution i do agree

with what neph said earlier

[dire wedge]

calling it "impractical" for Giants to crouch to get through doors is like calling hunters "impractical" because they have a -15% melee damage or clockmakers for having -25% ranged damage. its an innate drawback of the class. if you're a big lumbering Giant, you should naturally expect to crouch to get through normal ppl doors. if you dont want to deal with that, then you will naturally select a different height. these drawbacks are a naturally filtering mechanism preventing everyone from selecting it.

and yeah they could also crawl, which would be cool

[shell leaf]

VS is an RP heavy game i can't lie

[round acorn]

I mean I think classes are also bad tbh

[shell leaf]

it's not project zomboid levels but

it's near

[round acorn]

But that's another thing

[dire wedge]

classes need a rework yeah

i really enjoy the Remnants Reborn mod for classes

[round acorn]

Oh I mean I am against having classes at all

[shell leaf]

uncommon options being not added is silly because it's like

very very few people want a hardcore gameplay experience, but the lack of one would be very silly

[teal sigil]

I see class and height as intrinsically different. That's why I said height/cosmetics shouldn't affect gameplay; if you want height as a gameplay component such as classes instead of (or additional to) as a cosmetic, then you're right

[shell leaf]

very few people will want to make the game 5x easier than intended, but the options are there for the few who do

[round acorn]

I think classes should work like terraria where you don't have any innate traits and instead can get bonuses as you play by finding equipment with special properties. For example, rare boots that give you +15% movement speed but -10% melee damage

[shell leaf]

i disagree with this honestly

[teal sigil]

Me too, I don't like it feeling so forced. But I can see the goal behind it
The skills mods kind of fix this by having players specialize trough gameplay

[round acorn]

It's a matter of opinion but fair

[shell leaf]

more class-locked crafting recipes maybe

but not class-locked equipment in general

[round acorn]

I really dislike class locked things

[dire wedge]

yeah i definitely like the idea of height being part of the gameplay components. weight i think odin suggested is also a really cool idea. theres a ton of gameplay potential in both, you need only apply a little imagination to see what kind of cool things it could enable

[teal sigil]

Takes away too much freedom imo

[shell leaf]

i think singleplayer should have class recipes disabled by default though

[round acorn]

It's not that the equipment should be locked, it's that everything is unlocked and the equipment you obtain define what your class is rather than the other way around

[shell leaf]

you should just be able to explore everything in the game

[round acorn]

In my idea I mean

[dire wedge]

instead of class locked recipes i think it would be better just have them a lot easier for different classes.

instead of a hard lock

more of a soft lock

[shell leaf]

most sensible thing would be with manual crafting that certain classes are just much faster at crafting certain things

I.E a hunter would be able to hand craft arrows 50% faster

[teal sigil]

It would also require proper integration, in combat foremost. That's why such features are more prominent in fighting games such as Half Sword.

[shell leaf]

a lot of this stuff isn't relevant to the game as it is today and more how it will be in a couple of years

[dire wedge]

true, though everything requires proper integration

obviously dont do it badly

[shell leaf]

height, classes, body types, stuff like that is a post-"1.0" (as in all main story content is complete) update in my opinion

[foggy osprey]

If the little goblin can do mining in one tile space let the giant climb 3 high blocks :D

[teal sigil]

... with the devs being seemingly reluctant to go in-depth into combat
Like, the current combat rework seems like it'll be for the coming years integrsting the most critical components of CO and similar

[shell leaf]

uh

i'm fairly certain the combat rework will be released in the next update or the one immediately after

it'd be weird for it to be added after the armour rework and that's planned for the next update

so

one thing that there should REALLY REALLY REALLY be in the game is

tool customization

different handles, grips, styles of tool (like different shaped axe-heads and such)

things of that nature where players could express themselves in a way that actively affects their core gameplay loop, even if visual

alongside the armour stuff

[teal sigil]

That's what I mean

[teal sigil]

I'll recomend the "Toolsmith" mod to you, though it is somewhat limited

[shell leaf]

you could even get to the point where you can differentiate between a hatchet, an axe, and a waraxe through different sized handles

[teal sigil]

Or toolheads

Like working a "crude axehead" into a custom form which takes the most proximate preset to make a warax, hatchet etc.

[shell leaf]

i think that this game, unlike the Other block game, would benefit from more weapon variety to express how people want to look/fight

the differences in stats and reach could be minor or large and be balanced a whole bunch of different ways

i just think it'd be neat to implement

but also very off-topic

[teal sigil]

Yeah

One should make a "Tool/Weapon Customization" post

[shell leaf]

i have already in the past

i think the best kinds of posts (visibility wise) are the ones that are pretty vague that allow people to talk about implementation and such

i tend to make pretty specific posts about how i want them to be implemented

[dire wedge]

i think the next update should be the combat update. probably isnt their heart's biggest priority but they seem to be responsive to player requests.

i agree with odin, i think if you take a step back and look at the basic framework of the game and what players are naturally going to want, tool and weapon customization, and enjoyable combat is gonna be high on that list

it's one thing i think people who build blocky games need to be sensitive to is what the format of the game is naturally going to need. really solid combat and weapon variety is high on that list. even if you want it to be a slower more procedural progression focused, granular game, players are naturally just going to want to be able to fight in a satisfactory manner

if i had to break it down, in my mind this format of the game primarily needs really solid development in:

1. Creative Freedom / Expression / Bulding.
2. Adventure / Combat Mechanics.

in my mind those are the two unavoidable pillars of a blocky sandbox game, and everything should be built in such a way that accommodates those priorities

which i think Vintage Story has done a really solid job in so far. but could definitely use a little more TLC

[lost spruce]

i'd also love to see more micro biomes that hold their own hostile threats, like swamps or bogs

[fast smelt]

+5% cook speed
-5% damage

[dire wedge]

i think regions with unique hostile mobs and points of interest, like unique ruins or something, is a really good idea.

i think if you look at a proper MMO and how they organize their world, really broad regions with unique dedicated mobs, and points of interests, castles, dungeons, anything in particular to venture into those regiosn to seek out, i think that's a solid framework for how to organize a procedurally generated world like VS

i really like WoW's system where you cant venture into a region until you are strong enough to deal with the mobs is a really fun gameable way to organize the world imo

liek you can simply have certain regions have really strong mobs, and you dont dare venture into them until you're prepared. i personally like that a lot

getting super off topic, but yeah. i have really hype feelings about how the game could be built in a fun way lingering from years of crippling Minecraft neglect 😄

[teal sigil]

This feels very foreign to VS, though I can't quite put my finger on why. It sounds a lot like what Hytale wants to achieve.

Judging from existing implementations and how long rivers are taking, I fear biomes as you describe might be too "basic" or "gamey" for the devs, even if not everyone agrees

[shell leaf]

its a sandbox and not an mmo

important distinction

harder biomes shouldnt be from tech locking

they should simply be harder to sustain in

[teal sigil]

To me, VS is centered on labor: work to survive, to nourish yourself, to express yourself, to progress and foster
This talk of adventuring strays quite far from that concept

[shell leaf]

like the north vs south

[teal sigil]

Was about to say that

[shell leaf]

swamps would probably force a more fish-focused diet with less agriculture and more long-term preservation

you could settle there if you Wanted to but the benefits would be few

other than the vibe and easy water access

perhaps the benefit would be purely a high number of large fish

[teal sigil]

There are, in the real world, places that are inherently better to live in than others

It makes sense from a gameplay point of view to balance them, but it might still not be the right approach

And most factors that would make people irl live in less hospitable enviroments don't exist in VS

[dire wedge]

Not really. Vintage Story has points of interest like dungeons or ruins. It has tiered mobs. It’s open to adding more mobs. You implement higher tier mobs around regions with points of interest, and you have a more dynamic world.

Nothing about the “labor” aspect of the game that is incompatible with certain regions being more challenging than others. It already has an adventure / lore narrative worked into it. It’s just another element of progression.

It’s also an entire planet being built into a game. Not all regions should be treated the same.

[fast lava]

Tbh I just find most of the arguments agansit an (OPTIONAL CUSTOMIZATION FEATURE) boobs to be silly at best and kinda just lowkey (not acusing anybody of being deliberately) sexist if I am being honest

And in general reslly flimsy

Seraphs are mutated humans, and already display alot of masculine quality and features, there is zero reason to not also give more feminine options

[dire wedge]

its kinda wild that 35 people X'd an optional customizable feature that would not affect them at all.

[fast lava]

There is a surprising amount of people who don't like options in a community for a game of which one of it's core tenants is customization and modability

*getting flashbacks to the time I suggested more minecraft-like lighting as an optional accessibility feature*

[dire wedge]

lol

[fast lava]

Like damn bruh maybe I wanna see in the video game 😭

[dire wedge]

it honestly reminds me of arguing in circles with people in minecraft fighting tooth and nail against vertical slabs because they would "ruin creativity". like what are we doing guys?

[fast lava]

Presumably some form of heroine

[grand quail]

You do run into it if you play the game especially in multiplayer. I'd apply this argument more to flashing neon-colored race cars in medieval fantasy worlds but I guess it technically counts?

[dire wedge]

I didn’t say you don’t “run into it”, I said it doesn’t affect you at all.

[grand quail]

What an odd argument to make, of course visuals affect players by being seen, that's the whole point.

Anyway more customizations would be cool, should be added.

[heady ocean]

who says i mentioned no female traits? where was that written

[marsh oriole]

saying "seraphs should be androgynous" as your only input implies that.. i never said you literally said that

if i misunderstood you im sorry, but you didn't really give any context

[steep cliff]

For additional context, there's been people saying "boobs shouldn't be added because seraphs are currently androgynous & its important they stay that way". In fact I think most of the arguments I've seen against boobs being added fall into that category, with "people will be creepy & sexual about it so we should just not add boobs to avoid that" as a close second

[round acorn]

those are stupid arguments

[kindred temple]

The latter is especially ridiculous

[fast lava]

^

And honesty shows more about them then us

Like motherfucker, you the one saying boobs are inherently sexual you chicken breast brain

We ain't Mammals for nothin'

[round acorn]

If someone is going to be gross about it, they should be banned from the community

[dire wedge]

Players being upset about the existence of female characters is not what I would qualify as being legitimately affected.

It doesn’t actually affect them. Just like my character having a beard doesn’t affect them.

[old bloom]

my main desire was for a lack of sexual dimorphism, as I saw them as beings with no reproductive organs (and thus no need for things like mammary glands)
but thats just how i personally interpreted seraphs.
so that took the backburner for me, because it is just personal interpretation, i can just play pretend, which was part of why I originally expressed not really caring for the idea of breasts being added. even more so because i just have never seen them implemented into a block game that i found visually cohesive.
i did ultimately change my mind, because more customization is nice and things like that can be validating to people.

i only hope for a lot of care to go into it, because a poorly done player model feature is devastating to my ability to enjoy the game 😭 (a me issue)

[fast lava]

I mean one can have no reproductive organs and still show some signals of being sexually dimorphic

[old bloom]

you can. but i didnt want sexual dimorphism.

seraphs in my head were just eerie creatures that appeared human but were off in some way.

that was in part because of their strange eyes

[grand quail]

Yea I agree with you entirely that finding female traits upsetting goes into the 'whatever, deal with it' category and isn't a reason that should be catered to.

It's the 'it doesn't affect them part' that irks me, we're all playing the same game so we're all affected by the features in it and denying people an opinion is icky. It's adjacent to the 'you exist wrong so you don't get a voice' kind of sentiment that never leads anywhere good.

I realize I'm splitting hairs here and this is not worth continuing this conversation though.

[grand quail]

I reckon more customization wouldn't really invalidate that in the first place, breasts are pretty obvious traits so they wouldn't be out of place on something mimicking humans.

It's the subtle uncanny valley stuff, proportions that are slightly off etc, that really makes things eerie imo.

[clever gyro]

Some misunderstanding here, as a female I often feel unconformable as playing as sexy looking character because of some stupid male comments. Baldurs Gate 3 was the worse. VS was safe so far, and I will keep playing boobless character because of that, but that plenty of comments from males that they need boobs so badly....

[teal sigil]

You can also keep playing without (visible) boobs.

I also don't want boobs in the game; that would extend to not using them myself.
Seeing them in MP might disconvenience me, but not so much as to deny others the right to bear boobs (though I frankly can't see why they are such a critical component of self-expression).

[round acorn]

Well they're at least as much of one as a beard or hair is

[teal sigil]

Wouldn't say so. It's having or not having them, opposed to beards with many options.
There are at most breast sizes, but I can see them going too far. Boobs are a sexualized component in society, whether you find that right lr wrong.

[round acorn]

I disagree

We should tell the people who have a problem with it to go fuck themselves

Take a stance for once

[teal sigil]

Besides, they WOULD harm the andogynity, since there is a difference between having one gender option -> one gender, no gender
And having two gender options -> gender distinction
Boobs and non-boobs would very clearly distinguish between male and female seraphs. People would create their character with than in mind. Bearded and boobed characters would prob. be rare since that looks freaky to most, as we are conditioned to think in genders; that's also why boobs would, though theoretically still androgynous, promote gendering thought

[round acorn]

That makes no sense

Seraphs are not androgynous. That ship has sailed. They're explicitly masculine.

[teal sigil]

Stance for what exactly?

[round acorn]

Whatever we decide is right. If people are going to cause problems because of a normal part of human anatomy, don't hide the anatomy, remove those problematic people from your community

[teal sigil]

Just because they have a 2m beard they aren't male. It is a masculine trait, but only an opposing gender would cement thaz sexual identity. There are male-like and female-like Seraphim, and adding two opposing optional gender characteristics would create male and female Seraphim.

[round acorn]

I don't think this reasoning is sound. There are exclusively male-like seraphim currently.

[teal sigil]

Yes, no one should be weird about it. But I wouldn't say someone is "wrong" for not wanting to model different cup sizes in their Block game. It's up to the devs who would have to face this unfortunate possibility.

[round acorn]

I also don't agree with the distinction between "male-like" and just "male" to the extent that we can tell. Like. I think adding another option doesn't change anything for that distinction. I'm not wording this very well, not sure how to explain.

[teal sigil]

Further genderizing Seraphim would only worsen the issue that ks androgynous beings being assigned genders based on their appearance.

[clever gyro]

My female seraph is boobless and it looks fine for me.

[teal sigil]

Thing is, there are no males/females because there must be a distinction to assign gender. Seraphim do not have such distinctions, and as such cannot have genders. Boobs would be such a distinction as the antithesis of Beards, thus "creating" gender in the eyes of us human players.
It's either beards or boobs, and beards are just much more variable and important

[round acorn]

I disagree with this premise.

[teal sigil]

Nice picture (:
But yes, there is enough options for customization. Boobs would only make gender "canon" without necessarily enhancing the character creation by so much.
(Sorry for instrumentalizing your art)

[round acorn]

Like I think every single statement in this message is false

[teal sigil]

Crazy

But ok I guess

Doesn't seem we'll reach amy agreement here, but that's the standard for internet discourse

Promote boobs if you want. It would barely affect me, and it's up to the devs whether it fits the game.

[dire wedge]

This hypothetical idea of “androgynous seraphim” is a straight up fantasy in people’s heads at this point. There are already a slew of abundantly masculine traits in the character selection. The current options are not equally “male-like and female-like” that’s a mischaracterization, they’re overwhelmingly masculine, and at best vaguely and debatably feminine. Adding some clear feminine traits is not a bad thing. It doesn’t take anything away from you or the game. People need to take a step back from their online bubble here and get some perspective on this. The game and its players deserve some clearly feminine character trait options. Players should have zero trouble making clearly feminine characters, just as I had zero trouble making this clearly masculine character.

[glacial patio]

Masculine by human standards.

Although I haven't discovered any lore yet, so I'm no authority on the matter.

[dire wedge]

What species exactly do you think seraphim are based on? And which species exactly do you think dreamed it up as a stand in for itself?

[glacial patio]

Afaik both answers are humans, but, and like I said, I haven't discovered any lore yet, so I'm no authority on the matter, maybe they are changed or however they're created from prepubescent humans, and as such haven't been able to express the secondary gender characteristics yet and they didn't develop further after they're turned into seraphims.

If that makes sense.

Not sure if all the terminology is correct, learned this stuff in Dutch.

[old bloom]

I clarify my stance is pro breast, but it comes to my attention that a lot of feelings here around femininity and masculinity are hard stuck on older views, and its kind of disheartening knowing that simply having breasts gets you assigned as feminine.
I obviously cannot change societal views, but having so many people seemingly convinced this is the only possible way to add femininity, its a bit reductive and uncomfortable.
You can add more socially described "feminine" traits without breasts that are also not considered strictly feminine, in the same way a beard is not exclusive to men.
More "elegant" features can achieve this as well. Long eyelashes, softer expressions, complex hairstyles, clothing and accessories, even makeup.

These are all more typically social "feminine" things that can be participated in by anyone.

It is more than fine to advocate for breasts, but it feels reductive to imply it is the only solution to make seraphs appear more typically feminine.

[dire wedge]

Pretty sure nobody in this thread has said that breasts are the “only” way to add feminine characteristics. They just happen to occupy a clear association in most cultures the same way beards do.

[old bloom]

I did specifically say imply, not state

there are a lot of posts that read this way.

[dire wedge]

I don’t think anyone really implied it either. It just happens to be one of the most obvious traits with a clear association, so it’s naturally going to be at the top of the conversation.

Just like beards would be if there were inexplicably no beards.

If the game had an abundance of ample breast options and long flowing hair but zero beards or mustaches, people would probably bring up beards and mustaches as something they’d like to have as an option.

For the players who would like options like breasts, like many of the women on my server, I’m here in this conversation supporting that addition.

My personal needs for options are fairly well satisfied. But other players would like some more feminine options, and at the top of their list is some bosom.

[old bloom]

Mmhm. I am also here supporting the addition. I just think it is also good to consider the other abundant options as well.
As for thr implications I am referring to, there has been many a post of claims that it is impossible or near impossible to make a feminine seraph.
"There are exclusively male like seraph currently" was just posted earlier today.

In this forum

[glacial patio]

I feel like to answer the question about "could seraphs have breasts", we or the developers need to take a closer look at what makes a seraph a seraph, as in, why are they able to grow more human male features like beards, but not more human female features like breasts.

[glacial patio]

Also, other things I thought of while in the shower just now.

Perhaps there is something in the xx chromosome that prevents them from becoming a seraph or something in the y chromosome that allows them instead.

Maybe seraphs are secretly more like caterpillars, in that (afaik) they don't posses any reproductive organs until they metamorphose (is that a word even?) and only after that do they have reproctive organs, and we just don't know/recognise the metamorphosed seraphs.

But maybe this is explained more in the current lore or whatever the devs are holding back currently, I simply don't know, I'm planning on going to my first story location either today or tomorrow or soon-ish.

[old bloom]

[visual light]

I would like to make my vs character look like my oc character

[dire wedge]

I think they clearly just didn’t think about it that far. They had a vague idea about seraphim being “androgynous” (unless that idea came from players or something), and then they went and added a bunch of cool character traits like beards and real world culturally male hairstyles like Mohawks and other stuff simply because it looked cool and now we just have a lopsided set of options because it wasn’t really a big consideration.

Which is fine. Players should just have some more feminine options too now.

[steep cliff]

You forgot the secret 3rd option, which is beards AND boobs. Right now the default is a flat chest. Make the default be a boobed chest. No change to customization options by doing that. And remove the single "no facial hair" option. Per your argument, it barely counts as customization anyways, since there is only one way to not have a beard/facial hair.

Bam, all seraphs are way more androgynous and players' default human gendering assumptions are thrown off kilter. Win win.

[steep cliff]

(Important to say there's a significant number of humans with both beards & boobs, its just that socially there's still a general trend of thinking of one as masculine & one as feminine. So combining them is more liable to make people pause & think instead of falling into unconscious assumptions)

[steep cliff]

Also bitcraft online did a good job of actually making a simple more androgynous body type IMO, and then having a whole range of hairstyles and clothing of all kinds. I'm pretty sure they left out beards too.

I'm all for seraphs being androgynous, as long as its done mindfully w/ an awareness of male defaultism. The current implementation isn't that.

[dire wedge]

I tend to like my particular character as male, I think others should be able to make characters that suggests femininity as clearly as mine suggests masculinity.

I also like to make female characters sometimes too, I had several in WoW.

More androgynous character options, also great. I think all options should be available to players. It just happens to lean very lopsided toward one direction currently.

[steep cliff]

Yeah, I'm also down for dropping the "seraphs must be androgynous" approach and just focusing on more customization options.

Just trying to illustrate that there are better ways to have an androgynous character creater than the current Vintage Story one, for the folks who are holding on to "no boobs because androgyny". Partly because I suspect some of that perspective is due to them benefiting from the male defaultism making their own preferences easily available and unexamined. And partly because there really are much better ways to implement character creation for an adrogynous species if androgyny is so important.

[dire wedge]

I agree, I don’t think they followed through on the “androgyny” idea very thoroughly if that was the goal. And they’ve strayed from it so egregiously that I don’t think it’s practical anymore.

That said I wouldn’t mind more androgynous traits as well. More options in general would be nice. But yeah I think it’s long past time to add some distinctly feminine traits.

[teal sigil]

That would be the best solution for gender. Just not worth it in most peoples eyes; forcing players to have such an unconventional arrangement would be the worst.

[teal sigil]

Maybe not strayed so far, but it is difficult to uphold. Then again, since we are accustomed to see genders, there is no way to have a clearly androgynous humanoid without explicitly mixing traits (breasts and beards, most notably). What I'm trying to say is that to add breasts, or any other clearly feminine traits (of which there are few) means completely surrendering the idea of genderless Seraphim. The current male focus can support it, even if barely.

But as you say, I see that limiting player choice to uphold a tumbling lore-claim would be a bad choice for the game.

[teal sigil]

These "implied feminine traits" seem like the best choice for me, since they allow genderizing a character while still allowing mix-matches and practical genderlessness. Having long eyelashes, softer expressions and a beard like some persian noble would be, to me, the pinnacle of androgynity. But breasts will always be a critical component here, as Nephelangelo has shown.

[errant hull]

Yeah this is generally how androgyny is interpreted to be. Like an overgrown child. No estrogen, no testosterone. Very few children have beards or breasts.

[teal sigil]

I'd hate to see beards go. So for VS, the foremost option would be adding a feminine counter-trait... such as breasts (:

[errant hull]

Yeah… no one wants to get rid of beards because beards are cool.

[errant hull]

Check out depictions of the Pharaoh Akhenaten. He had his artists depict him in a very eccentric, androgynous style.

[steep cliff]

Woah that's some strong language there, maybe just speak for yourself.

[glossy idol]

fire

takes like this are why i love you theys

[old bloom]

give me a hair option that obscures the entire body so i may be free of assumptions

[kindred temple]

Some really big hair options would be really cool, especially if we could get some really long braid and locs hairstyles along with it

And at least one really long crazy-old-wizard-like beard

[wary sedge]

we need boobs

[teal sigil]

I'm sorry if I worded that too strongly, I edited it to be less offensive now. But very few people would choose that combination, so forcing it would be a mistake.

Having the choice of boobs and beards would make most people choose their genderless Seraph to be female or male (which is just my criticism) instead of neither or both

[clever gyro]

You will be surprise with amount of boobed seraph with beards it would look so funny 😛

[dire wedge]

I’m all for the mix and match freedom.

[visual light]

Someone would make a seraph that looks like gandalf with boobs

[teal sigil]

Already possible since there's a boob mod

[teal sigil]

Probably would, yes

Definitely would set the games characters apart

[visual light]

I know

[marsh oriole]

and thatd be based as hell

ghandalf big naturals update when

[ebon saddle]

bobas

[fast lava]

All i can say is once again
I don't understand why a community for a game about options and modification is so antsy about the player model having the option for breasts

[dire wedge]

The gamer bubble is famously difficult for people to see outside of. Especially the more online it gets.

[clever gyro]

and why males want boobs in every game....

[dire wedge]

I’m literally here because women on my server are explicitly requesting it. Which should be no surprise to anyone who uses their head for a fraction of a second.

[clever gyro]

Funny they are not here.

[dire wedge]

Sorry but you’re going to have an extremely uphill battle here if you think these arguments are going to be persuasive. You’re greatly overestimating your abilities and your perspective.

Women on my server were requesting a mod in particular because they have little hope they could convince Anego to do something themselves.

If you want to pretend that’s an unlikely and doubtful scenario I’m describing then I think you’re kinda revealing more about your own perspective than you realize.

[clever gyro]

Yes, sorry but currently it looks like a bunch of guys is requesting this, not many girls speaking.

[winged wolf]

What is the 🫃reaction trying to communicate? I'm not internet versed enough to understand.

[lost spruce]

i wouldnt bother engaging with this person

[dire wedge]

The thread was literally started by a woman. Yes women would like this feature. Obviously. Like what kind of game of pretend are we doing here?

Currently asking permission from the woman who DM’d me to add the Female Seraph mod if it’s cool if I share her request, because apparently for some bizarre reason we’re now drawing into question whether or not it’s believable that women would like female character options.

[lost spruce]

they are not talking in good faith

[dire wedge]

The more I read their comments the more I’m left with this impression as well.

[glossy idol]

do you think you are special? the only woman here and/or the only one who can think clearly? be for real please, i beg you

[lost spruce]

nope too far the other direction walk it back

[glossy idol]

can a woman not be an asshole online in 2026? is that still a male dominated field?

[lost spruce]

bruh

[ebon saddle]

cant wait to have 3 genders

male, woman and N O R M A L

[dire wedge]

I’d clean this up a bit but I think your initial reply was reasonably fair. (I’m personally not offended at all, just want to keep it clean for the sake of the suggestion)

There are women in here also requesting some female character options.

[wintry barn]

Honestly just looking at the ✔️ vs ❌ rates, I think this is a super majority win for ppl supporting it.

[ebon saddle]

get ❌

idk

I WANT THIS YESSS

I WANT TATAS

and tatars

[fast lava]

Can we also have tartar sauce?

[ebon saddle]

tatar sauce*

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/627728699772370945/844669684507082822/image0.gif

[fast lava]

[steep cliff]

Yeah it is a fair call out, I was also confused why Irulanaa thinks almost everyone here is a dude. I just took a scroll and had to go quite a ways to find anyone with he/him pronouns and saw lots more she/her and they/them on the way.

[dire wedge]

Was a weird assumption for sure

[kindred temple]

What it feels like is that Irulanaa may have had bad experiences online which I understand.

I’m part of a Minecraft server that has been online for several years that’s open to the public, and because my Minecraft name is feminine, I’ve gotten some bad weird crap directed at me. Like, once some idiot spammed about his d because I wouldn’t give him coords and another time, a stupid kid who needs to get off Twitch started shipping me with one of the other frequent players (and wouldn’t stop when we told him no), just blatantly asking if I was a girl and trying to set me up on ‘dates’. The thing is for this, we just ban them.

But still, we got to normalize simple things like breasts just existing.

[glossy idol]

im quite aware the utility of my response is far from optimal for the sake of debate. it is definitely blunt for the sake of being blunt

idk i just have to mind my tone and filter my feelings a lot and I appreciate the freeing feeling of anonymity

[ebon saddle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/707014439152386060/1080561840788090920/fall.gif

[kindred temple]

That bug is cool looking. We don't have a lot of green bugs around here (Sorry, likes bugs)

[dire wedge]

Stuff like this is why I look at all these arguments against adding female character traits and I’m like, it’s painful how much of an obvious bubble these guys are in

[dire wedge]

I hear you.

[glossy idol]

julesnettle's guess is very empathetic and generous, and i think has a good chance of having truth.

my 3 dollar bet is that irulanaa doesnt like trans women and is assuming all of the people talking her with she/her bios are 'male'

i see you typing, im gonna drive a long bit in a sec so i wont get to read it. if i am wrong, i am simply wrong, my bad. again it is a baseless guess

[clever gyro]

I simply want to see" I'm woman I want my character to have breasts". So far I'm in to conversation didn't see it.

[clever gyro]

I'm against trans woman as I'm against sexualization of game? Trans woman can feel uncomfortable too with sexiest comments.

[lost spruce]

im a woman and i want my character to have breasts does this help

[dire wedge]

Breasts obviously don’t have to be a sexualized thing. Especially if, you know, Saraty implements it.

[dense shard]

Yeah every time ive checked this thread its been nothing but gymnastics

[dire wedge]

Like I said before it doesn’t even need to be its own feature, the breasts can just be part of broader female physique options.

It just happens to be one of the most obvious features people are going to bring up in the topic of adding female character trait options.

[winged wolf]

Id rather add a chest type option with however many types the devs deem appropriate including pecs for more bulky characters, id like that frontline clases can look bigger and ranged ones nimbler, outside of gender

[lost spruce]

add a single big boob option to really add some wacky ones

[dire wedge]

I just looked it up and, unless AI has lead me astray, which is always a danger, it looks like literally all of Anego’s art and character design modelers are women by the way. Saraty, Balduranne, and Redram. So I don’t really see a universe where sexualized female character traits are a serious danger here.

With Saraty alone I have pretty high confidence that it would be handled appropriately. So I don’t really know why we’re pretending this would be an issue. If anything you have greater danger if it was handled by modders.

[steep cliff]

Nephelangelo gave it to you by proxy. I can vouch for his general reasonableness & that he's running a public server.

Surely as someone complaining about men being weird about breasts online you are aware of how much standing up & revealing your womanhood in online spaces can feel like painting a target on your back, and how common it is for women to lay low to try to avoid harassment.
Saying "I assume everyone is man unless they open themselves up to harassment by saying otherwise, and I won't believe anyone speaking on behalf of women they know who would like to stay anonymous" is not very supportive of the women in this thread/community.

[steep cliff]

I'd love different body types

[clever gyro]

Because i didn't see much women perspective/experience yet.

[lost spruce]

could a man not want boobs for the sake of customization?

[dire wedge]

The thread was literally started by a woman.

[lost spruce]

like im really trying to figure out what you're trying to say here

its either insincere or incoherent

[dire wedge]

Also, I have made a number of female characters in WoW.

Like I have serious trouble believing that someone thinks women wouldn’t want some female character trait options.

There are several women in here who have posted.

Here’s also one of the more comprehensive requests I got from my server. Thal, Myou and Olive are also women.

And you can see from this that it was explicitly pitched to be modest and considerate to these sensitivities.

Here’s also my reply to their request.

[marsh oriole]

#1398693732550705243 message here you go, a woman's perspective.
the start of the thread. non women are a good portion of the people in here yapping, but this thread literally only exists because a woman said she wanted the option to have boobs

also discrediting the nonconforming folks who've argued in favor of it is a little silly, especially when some (myself included!) have female bodies despite not being "women"

like, i have boobs. i don't put boobs on my game characters, but i think it's awesome if other people want to and really don't see the harm in it. i also think it's awesome if people don't want to (as you and others have said it is possible to have a feminine character without), but that's not a reason to not give others the option lol

also genuinely who cares if a man wants to put 2 extra squares on his character, there's really not much to sexualize LOL

• in roleplay communities its really not abnormal for people to want to play characters of the opposite sex

[clever gyro]

I talk about half of conversation I was having. People constantly complain why is someone opposite this idea. So I mentioned my reasons, game have great customizations options in mods. I like vanilla being neutral and simple.

[marsh oriole]

but vanilla already isn't exactly neutral is the thing. it's a lot easier to create a masculine-looking character than feminine as it stands right now, despite the intention being androgyny

[clever gyro]

I think seraph without beard look very famine.

[glossy idol]

ok yes yes being a woman on the earth sadly makes you a sexual object. do i like this? no. do i wish it was different? yes

the world is often cruel and wrong, consider these exhibits a through c (rape, war, everything else evil you can think of)

we will always suffer from sexual comments, it is a part of womanhood. I am not going to lob off my tits and try to be an unsexual being because of people in the world being miserable

my accusations of disliking trans women stem solely from your ignorance of the amount of women here wanting this. I took your ignorance as intentionally malicious, but im sure it is possible to just completely miss that.

[marsh oriole]

again, this goes back to my point that androgyny shouldnt be viewed as an absence of feminine features while masculine features are less scrutinized. if you have traits only widely associated with one gender and the rest being 'neutral' options you can't really call it androgynous

[glossy idol]

i will not repeat arguments against male defaultism, this has already been said more eloquently than I could write

[marsh oriole]

like sure you can achieve a feminine look with no beard and long hair. but only allowing people to represent the average of one sex and not the other means seraphs are no longer 'androgynous' and the character customization is not 'neutral'

[dire wedge]

You keep contradicting yourself. You say you want the gender to be neutral but then you say you think a seraph without a beard is very feminine, suggesting you’re good with the current state of it.

[clever gyro]

Looks famine doesn't mean it is female.

[dire wedge]

And you were basically just being dishonest when you pretended not to believe women wanted female character traits. You’re just grasping at any reason to be against it, including ones that are clearly not in good faith.

Now a number of women have pointed out to you that they do in fact want this and you’ve abandoned that sinking argument for another.

Just leaping from sinking argument to sinking argument.

[clever gyro]

I said form the conversion I have so far I never notice any woman saying I want breasts because I'm female.

Why you so against people with different opinions?

[dire wedge]

I find it extremely hard to believe that you really think women don’t want female character traits. That does not pass the sniff test.

[dire wedge]

I don’t think you’re offering real opinions, I think your arguments are in bad faith.

[clever gyro]

You too.

[dire wedge]

I mean I literally shared with you the primary reason I’m here, that a number of women on my server explicitly requested it. Which you very bad faith pretended not to believe.

I think I’m done with you in this conversation. Your claimed arguments don’t really add up and you don’t seem interested in an honest conversation.

[clever gyro]

I said my reasons too. I'm only one form 35 against this idea talking because conversation is unhealthy here. I think devs should have variety of opinions and decide themselves.

[dire wedge]

To be perfectly honest I think your contribution here has been the most unhealthy.

Goodbye.

[clever gyro]

Bye

[plucky seal]

I am one of the women that could honestly take it or leave it. I doubt i'm the only one

[glossy idol]

ily bro

i always see u in here spitting and doing so with a level head

[dire wedge]

Thank you, I’m desperately trying to hang on. 😂

[ebon saddle]

and SEXOOOOO

[errant hull]

Idk people overthink stuff. An option for breasts (accessible with the leotard or two piece underwear) is a good idea for vanilla game.

I mean female traders are already vanilla and no one minds.

I think the tall lanky traits and the blue skin and sax voice differentiate seraph vs. human already.

[glacial patio]

Dear @dire wedge, I am sorry for the ping but I have to ask something.
You state you wish to debate in good faith, which I am also in favour of, yet you haven't responded to my (in my opinion) fairly sound reasonings, of which I wish to debate and learn from your perspective versus my own.
The only response I had gotten from you so far is a somewhat snide remark about what seraphims are based on.
I hope this message doesn't come over as rude or pretentious or whatever, I simply wish to engage in debate with you.

You may either contact me through a ping or simply through DMs if you prefer.

[glossy idol]

I, nor many others in this forum, don't believe that facial hair meaningfully differs from breasts in terms of both being secondary sex charicteristics

btw using a lot of words to beg for your own apologetics and respect doesn't change anything about your views and opinions!!

[glacial patio]

My views about trying to think of ways that would potentially explain the reason for the seraphims to be somewhat androgynous?

[glossy idol]

i didnt even read this

bro just yappin

[glossy idol]

yes man please speak more concisely ppl dont care to read 5 paragraphs of "i just want to respectfully debate sir please sir" and also doing that just adds nothing!

[glacial patio]

Oh well excuse me for trying to be polite, guess I should just be rude to everyone I guess.

[glossy idol]

you are excused

[glacial patio]

That's nice.

Then I guess I can sleep easy.

[glossy idol]

excellent

[steep cliff]

What alyssal said about secondary sex characteristics. You did acknowledge that point here, but then began begging the question by trying to invent a reason why seraphim can have beards but not breasts. You started with the assumption that beards and no boobs is correct and intentional, and just began trying to create theories to support what you've already assumed.

When in actuality, there is no lore or in-game reason, and it is likely that there is no developmental reason beyond the ease of only having a single body type for modeling clothes/armor and some unconscious bias.

That's why no one jumped in to talk about your ideas. Everyone else is here to talk about whether the option to have a boobed seraph should be in the game, while you treated that as a foregone conclusion and only wanted to talk about different ways to justify beards but no boobs from a lore perspective.

[dire wedge]

This was the response I posted to your speculation about seraphim’s alleged (and tenuous) “androgyny”.

I think they clearly just didn’t think about it that far. They had a vague idea about seraphim being “androgynous” (unless that idea came from players or something), and then they went and added a bunch of cool character traits like beards and real world culturally male hairstyles like Mohawks and other stuff simply because it looked cool and now we just have a lopsided set of options because it wasn’t really a big consideration.

[dire wedge]

Also I don’t think it’s my responsibility to dream up lore to explain why seraphim should be “androgynous” when I don’t think they actually are functionally androgynous anymore nor do I think they should be androgynous, so that’s why I didn’t join you in dreaming up reasons not to do the suggestion we’re here advocating for.

Like yeah, I’m probably not gonna dream up reasons not to do the thing I’m suggesting to do. Kind of an odd demand.

[marsh oriole]

an illustration of my point here, mostly posting here for future reference so excuse my mspaint ramble :-)

[errant hull]

Really went the extra mile there.

[marsh oriole]

mspaint is the easiest way to communicate some things

[glacial patio]

I see.
I had assumed the devs had already added reasons as to why they should be androgynous, but like I said, I haven't played through any of the lore yet, so I didn't know.

I thank you for your informative reply.

[glacial patio]

And as for this, it seems my debate was misplaced in this case, I apologise for that.

[buoyant zinc]

I find it incredible that after over a year this thread is still active

I do hope we get the customization we want some day

[wary sedge]

we already have the two-piece underwear option

[ebon saddle]

tatas

[dire wedge]

No worries!

[old bloom]

i really think there should be a push for other features considered typically femme as well.

my partner has a beautiful face with a mix of features considered femme and masc.
Long lashes are a fantastic way to do this.

Side tangeant, I think a lot of people have a harder time as well seeing seraphs as typically feminine is because squares and "boxy" figures are considered more masculine, while feminine features are typically considered more rounded and soft.

when you have a game based around a shape that is by default considered more masculine, its not too surprising.
-# even though i find it all quite silly

[ebon saddle]

@old bloom just give me tatas and maybe the male stuff too idk

[near kettle]

I might be used to male default in my games, that doesn't mean I'm happy with it being a constant to this day - give us the triangle, please and thanks 🫴

[dire wedge]

This is one of those things that is eventually going to get added to the game and then all the people who melted down and argued against it until they were blue in the face are just going to completely forget about it.

[proper narwhal]

I'd love to see female seraphs in VS. Narrow the waist a bit, some booba, maybe a slight difference in how the eyes look etc... it could work very well.

I imagine if this was released we'd see a lot of mods that add more feminine clothing to VS too like dresses

[clever gyro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVuB-xsS8_w I tried to see how minecraft mods are handling that, never try to google it mostly disgusting stuff

I have blue hair not face.

[dire wedge]

Again, this is a moot argument, as the entire Vintage Story design team are women. Literally zero reason for any reasonable cognitively sentient human being to expect they would handle this inappropriately. Which people who have followed this thread are quite well aware of, so the repetition of this argument is yet another example of the bad faith nature of opposition to this suggestion.

[boreal kraken]

i have no idea what this means, nor did i mean to open this page, but i am on your side, whatever that may be. this is amazing

[clever gyro]

just a glimpse of how male modders imagine female characters...

[boreal kraken]

I know right, its awfull

Although i think that they are mostly making those mods to get the engagement (and the money) that comes with using this against children on the internet.

Why do you think that the vintage story team would lean this way in the slightest?

honest question

[clever gyro]

I hope not, but reading some male comments on woman here give me same vibe.

[boreal kraken]

i really dont see it heading that way, i think most people (and DEFFINITLY the VS team) just want a little extra to add to the character

mostly in a way to complement the new clothing

if there are any people who want to sexualize 2 cubes, in a cubed game, then i think theyd do it no matter the circumstances

I think its sad that we need to be so worried about this being oversexualized, but if we keep avoiding any form of normallity around this, we will just make the problem of oversexualisation worse in the long run wont we?

[clever gyro]

I know so far game was safe and I hope it will stay that way. And will continue playing my boobless, waistless female character that doesn't like to wear dresses and like to kill monsters.

[boreal kraken]

yeah i totally get that

dresses get in the way when youre killing some scary rust knife legged creature dont they

i dont think it being an option makes you have to use it though?

i personally wouldnt use it either but i still think some people would

and i dont really mind some difference in shape in the characters, i trust the VS team to keep it modest and all

[clever gyro]

I don't want it to be default female or male, seraph with boobs and beard fine, I actually like this idea.

[boreal kraken]

well i think the whole idea is that there is just a boob toggle

if you want a beard or no beard on that thats up to you

no one forcing you to have boobs if you want long hair

i have long hair

dont have boobs tho

seems silly to link em up

[clever gyro]

Yes but some comments like: boobs waist and dress as package.

[boreal kraken]

well id say the dresses being moddeled to fit both boob and no boob would be best, and not that much more effort

only small part needs changing

even if this "waist" also got added, i expect it to be a very minimal difference

and probably just as toggelable as the other features

could have both, just one of em, or neither

in case you want neither then nothing would have to change for your OC right?

(i saw the drawing above, looks amazing btw)

[clever gyro]

yes, just don't want to be my character to be called male because I don't have breasts

[boreal kraken]

thats fair, i think anyhting without a beard will probably just register as "who knows" tho

im sure you wont be the only one making these choices (my character has long hair and no beard, does that currently make me a woman?)

i think boobs / waist would just be like the beard is currently

sure it nudges perception, but in the middle will just stay in the middle

i think your worries are very realistic, and i get the hesitation. i go on rants on a monthly basis on the hellish minecraft videos being recomended to kids. I think allowing this to exist in a normal way isnt bad tho

anyway in the end i couldnt care less, i just saw a funny picture and stuck around to give my two cents. i dont think you have to worry about this game becomming unsafe, its a lovely community (albeit a little hardheaded sometimes ;) ) Tyrion seems like a great person from all ive heard about him, and nothing actually bad would actually be implemented

[visual light]

That Minecraft mod looks ridiculous

Yes

[teal sigil]

The VS team take their game seriously. They wouldn't make sexual engagement bait, which is what those MC mods mainly are

[dire wedge]

They don’t believe it is. They’re pretending they think it’s a danger just to have something to say, they’re fully aware that the entire Vintage Story design team are women. They’re not arguing in good faith.

[teal sigil]

At most, popular games have their little sex-mod subcultures. VS isn't big or fitting enough to have such a group exist or harm the community

[dire wedge]

If anything a mod would be far more likely to be distasteful than anything Saraty designed, and even the one existing Female Seraph mod is pretty mild in VS.

[teal sigil]

(Minecraft, Skyrim and even Rimworld all have such ugly creations which you shouldn't look at, but the game itself isn't usually connected with that. It's just some people doing their thing)

[dire wedge]

The Female Seraph mod even worked in the “modesty” mod additions if I remember correctly.

[clever gyro]

It's not only design issue, I'm worried how male community will react seeing breasts.

[teal sigil]

I sincerely hope their majority react as normal people would and should
This thread at least hasn't seen such major issues

[winged wolf]

That is the same argument for hiyab...

[teal sigil]

What's hiyab?

[clever gyro]

You don't need hijab were you don't have breasts 😛

[dire wedge]

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/52978

[teal sigil]

It'd be just another clothing in my eyes
But it does have irl political implications

[dire wedge]

According to this these changes have been rolled into Female Seraph mod.

[teal sigil]

Seems to refer to size changes, which is quite natural and discussed in this thread as well

[dire wedge]

Their arguments being all over the place illustrates how insincere they’re being. To the point that I no longer believe that they believe what they’re saying, and honestly find them rather sus.

[clever gyro]

You never experienced sexiest comments good for you. Just don't call me sus.

[winged wolf]

This is literally a sexist comment

[clever gyro]

In what way?

[winged wolf]

You are making a blanket statement discriminating by gender

[clever gyro]

I where?

[winged wolf]

That is the definition of sexist, or one of them

[clever gyro]

He don’t understant my experience so I assume he never hard sth similar towards him.

[dire wedge]

That’s pretty irrelevant to their point.

[winged wolf]

no, pay attention to the comment im responding, im referring to your "male community" comment

[dire wedge]

Like I said earlier, I don’t think they’re arguing in good faith.

I should have listened more when it was pointed out here
#1398693732550705243 message

[boreal kraken]

what if we just stick to what we all agree on, boobs / more feminine **leaning **customisation is a good (or a not-bad) idea if not gender assigned. and we trust the VS team to implement it modestly and propperly. (end of discussion?)

@clever gyro seemed pretty fine with that earlier too?

[boreal kraken]

^^

[clever gyro]

Yes. I hope it will not go way minecraft mods go.

[boreal kraken]

i highly doubt it

as said, the team is full of women too, they would not let this happen now would they

i think yall bashing heads too much and the middle way is fine for everyone

[dire wedge]

Again, literally the entire Anego design team is female. They know this idea that it would be implemented distastefully like those third party Minecraft mods is not a plausible likelihood. They are not arguing in good faith.

[boreal kraken]

(if its even considered a middle way, more like making sure no weird stuff happens)

[boreal kraken]

well you keep repeating bad faith but didnt they just say they were fine with it?

i think its just some miscommunication yall

[dire wedge]

They said they worried it would be implemented distastefully like the Minecraft mod. They know full well that the entire Anego team is female, so no I don’t think they really believe that’s a possibility. I think they are not being sincere in their arguments.

[boreal kraken]

then why would they say they are fine with it later?

idk id just leave it be and think more about how to deal with clothing retextures

[dire wedge]

They also claimed no women had weighed in, despite several explicitly telling them what they thought. Including the OP.

[winged wolf]

Yes, I do prefer individual options rather than the two body types, specially because that could include things other than gender

[dire wedge]

They’ve exhibited a pattern of insincere arguments.

[boreal kraken]

Neph, i get your frustration a lot, but sometimes people worry lots, and just knowing doesnt equal feeling free of worry. Dont you think its best we just spend our energy on figuring out a propper implementation thats moddest, and works with scaling the clothing, rather that sticking tho this senseless argument? They seem reasonably on board, lets just keep it that way?

[dire wedge]

Mix and match I think is the best approach. No reason to narrow player flexibility there.

[boreal kraken]

agree

i need lotr accurate dwarve women after all

[teal sigil]

In my eyes, the best option would be 3-5 bodytypes with varying sleekness/bulkiness, and different-sized "boobs" (or, more generally, bulges)
This wouldn't come with the issue of choosing female <-> male, instead offering multiple gender-independent options

[dire wedge]

Slight spoiler here for those who haven’t gotten this far in the game, but we already know this is basically what can be expected of some female character models. Not exactly scandalous, this is about as benign a non issue as it gets.

This also makes it fairly obvious that they are inevitably going to add some female character options for players eventually, it’s really just a matter of time.

Would just be nice for them to be added sooner than later, given that it’s evidently not a super complicated addition

[kindred temple]

Yeah, again, it's not as if like most other rpg-like or similar games have character customization where breasts options are just naturally included

[steep cliff]

This mod is a good example of attempting to do different body types. I'd like any body type choices to be available with or without boobs, I definitely agree with the freedom of mixing traits as desired without concern about picking an assigned gender.
https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/66408

[marsh oriole]

idk, i saw exactly one weird comment on the female seraph mod, and that's a lot more detailed than we'd likely ever get in vanilla (TWO WHOLE TRIANGLES 😱)

also again, there are women in favor of the idea, it was literally proposed by a woman. why shoot that down because some men are weird? should women not be allowed to dress how they want because of how men might react? or should we tell men to just be fucking normal lol

[teal sigil]

I wouldn't say it's inevitable; it might be intended as an additional distinction between them. But the devs are open to communitary feedback either way

[marsh oriole]

like if a man's weird about square boobs call him a gooner and go on with your day, no one would force you to use them anyway

[dire wedge]

The entire VS design team are women, who already added burly beards to the character traits, as well as feminine undergarments, and also recently added female villager models to the game. Feels pretty obvious to me they’re eventually going to get around to this. This “androgynous” idea seems to be primarily a player fixation, and I don’t think I trust this account of the situation given how often players characterize things wrong.

[vagrant field]

I thought seraph isnt nor woman nor man? Just a strange being

[kindred temple]

I feel like a copypaste needs to be created that summarizes points already discuss

[glossy idol]

girl please, ive been sexually assaulted; being a woman and nothing more simply leads to experiencing shitty things. i totally get feeling seen and understood by a flat-chested model and no one wants to take your choice from you. i just do not think that allowing people to create characters with boobs is going to perpetuate rape culture and its baggage anymore than people, primarily men, create it now. i also feel strongly, especially for our transgender sisters, that feminine character choices, like hair and hopefully breasts, gives options to play a character that they feel understood by. i know that i would certainly feel more seen, especially with how men tend to be prioritized by options in games since forever

[clever gyro]

Glad to hear somwthing from another woman.

[glossy idol]

honestly ive come around on thinking that she is being genuine. i just think shes experienced shitty things and feels very strongly about the sexualization of women.

i agree her arguments are sketchy, but i dont think that means she isnt coming from a genuine place. I think she already has set opinions about these things and wishes to find arguments for them

which is no different than what the rest of us are doing, i just simply believe the pro-breast stance to be more consistent and correct. full disclosure this is certainly easy for me to say when this is how i felt from the start

i will also say, i do seriously feel strongly, especially with how many women who play this game being transgender, about allowing the choice. I am transgender myself, although I have been transitioning since 16 and these days I am connected much more strongly with womanhood alone than being a part of the transgender community.

i have always felt very understood and joyful about being able to play female characters in games. when i was younger I didnt have a vast network of women in my life and all of the knowledge and experience that comes with womanhood. playing games that let me do this was one of the first opportunities I had to feel 'normal' and comfortable

[kindred temple]

I was already under the impression that several of us talking were women

[errant hull]

Idk do I need to take a photo of my feminine hand here to prove I’m female. Some people here aren’t but they are still interested in this conversation. Everybody talking rn is pretty nice for internet standards. Does it matter?

[errant hull]

hmmn... Yoshikage Kira may be reading this 👋 .

[glossy idol]

whats popping bestie

[errant hull]

I might get hunted down by a hand-fetishing serial killer’s stand ability soon…. 💣

[errant hull]

You can make your own deductions with the information I have given you. If you think I'm trans as well, I have no problem with that.

[glossy idol]

honestly who gaf if someone is trans. obv some trans people havent yet experienced manhood or womanhood but a lot of us who have been out for a long time are no different than and often unrecognizable from their cisgender peers

being trans is sick as fuck though

i have been very good friends with many trans women who live very openly proud to be transgender

[fast lava]

every single trans dude i have seen looks like he chews steel and could sculpt granite like clay

[marsh oriole]

one of my friends is transfem and shes the most stunning gorgeous woman ive ever fucking seen, genuinely unrecognizable pre and post transition she metamorphosed like a butterfly

[old bloom]

no doubt.
Growing up as an afab person and especially online, its a nightmare to say the least.
I was kind of happy to not feel the need to have to pick a femme or masc body, because there was no choice. its just hair, instrument, and thats about it.

Sometimes you want to play someone who is femme without it being outwardly apparent, due to the attention it grabs.

But in many games, masc models are.. bulky, for lack of a better term.
It feels a bit frustrating.

[dire wedge]

As a guy I would like more feminine characters just for the sake of sheer variety.

[old bloom]

once again clarifying i am pro customization. while i wouldnt prefer the breasts, i know plenty of ladies would, especially some of my tgal pals.

[old bloom]

thats just it though, femininity is being attributed so heavily to breasts, it can be a bit uncomfortable.

[dire wedge]

We’ve been over this, but similar to beards it’s just one of the most obvious traits so it naturally rises to the top of this conversation.

Also, I’m not speaking solely about breasts.

[old bloom]

it does. but it doesnt hurt to consider other options as well, without heavily attributing femininity to a biological feature.

[dire wedge]

Feminine characters overall.

I did after all say more feminine characters, not more breasts.

[marsh oriole]

yeah it's def not the only option, just a pretty culturally obvious one ykwim? it does suck (as ive said as a non woman with boobs) to have such a strong association but there's not much explicit, visibly "feminine" features you can add to a character this simple outside of, like, eyelashes maybe?
but honestly like i said, breasts would allow for more intentional androgyny even if theyre widely seen as a feminine thing to have, if that makes sense

• yeah i do kinda get the bioessentialist angle and thats not what ive been trying to get at whatsoever 🙂‍↕️

[dire wedge]

I also don’t think this really needs overthinking here. It’s a pretty benign addition.

[glossy idol]

i remember someone saying earlier "two whole triangles" and it had me thinking we'd actually be doing one lol

[marsh oriole]

twas me 🙂‍↕️ and imo it is one, just a wide legged triangle i suppose. i mostly meant they werent joined into a uni-cube-boob

[teal sigil]

The uni-cube would fit the block game model better imo

[old bloom]

yeah. same boat here, it is very tiresome having a body that people automatically categorize, when its difficult to hide.
eyelashes is good, more hair options, jewelry and clothing for sure.
thoughtful addition of breasts. i would argue more bodytypes in general, but i know seraphs are seemingly meant to be tall and lanky, so i imagine that is better left to a mod.

its shocking how feminine you can make something just with appropriate use of pixels as well, in terms of clothing!

[old bloom]

two triangles makes me think of that one armor..

xena warrior princess look

[teal sigil]

Most community members I've seen, including this thread, think or target genders. The #fanart-and-stories Seraphim often are explicitly gendered (he/she). The androginity, in contrast, is a lore-thing and as such more or less given by the game/its designers.
None of us can know what the designer position is, unless we ask directly. But this thread already shows that most players (at least those which are interested enough and in the Discord) would prefer boobs n' gender

[teal sigil]

There are a few other options, long "feminine" hair foremost, but there are people that specifically requested boobs who started this thread, not necessarily to add "femininity" overall

[glossy idol]

i think jewelry and makeup is a fantastic space for a mod to explore. idk(?) if it would be cool to add to the vanilla game. i also like tall lanky as the default cuz imo thats a tuff way to express androgyny and think it works well with average boobs or a flat chest

i also just think this would cater well to more people's feelings on making seraphs slightly more "holy" or whatever by being more sexless than people people

i think a dropdown menu titled breasts with options on or off that makes you look like the npcs with them would fit in well. im personally woker about it but i think it would be pragmatic for multiple reasons to just disallow briefs with them on

[sudden ridge]

Looking at the model here it's actually 2 cubes lol

[glossy idol]

ur so right

[teal sigil]

I mean a triangle like in the NPC. Which is made of two rectangles since there are only rectangles in the game

[dire wedge]

Yeah as I expected it looks like Anego’s implementation is simpler and more elegant than the mods, which tend to overcomplicate the whole project.

Also less pointy and abrupt, mods tend to overdo the pointiness.

[sudden ridge]

There's this one mod that has some deer human character with overcomplicated anatomy lol