Crude Map for early game, where players can draw on it themselves.

[clever cliff]

right but the player may want to move them around to relatively where they think those positions are, maybe make lines reflecting distances between them

[undone valley]

i don't mean having the layers ontop of each other or anything

think of it like a puzzle, you might build out several areas of the puzzle independently but you can only join them when you find a piece that connects them

[clever cliff]

right but you can still move those pieces around to help you put the puzzle together

[undone valley]

again, not shown at the same time

[clever cliff]

but they should be

that helps you figure out where things are

[undone valley]

i think that would be too messy

like how would it work? just an endless plane of disjointed areas you have to scroll through?

[clever cliff]

like a puzzle

[undone valley]

right and that's gonna get incredibly messy

as opposed to just having a list of them and automatically opening the one you're in, if available

[clever cliff]

but a list isn't gonna tell you which section is where

[undone valley]

yes, that's the point

you don't get that information handed to you until you've explicitly mapped an overlap between layers

[clever cliff]

would a list not be more messy to understand than placing them spatially on a grid

[undone valley]

i don't think so, and again you're not meant to look at other layers as a matter of course

[clever cliff]

But the player still needs a spatial representation of where things are relative to eachother

Hence why maps exist to begin with

And things would get less messy when you upgrade to the accurate location map, either the pieces would auto align or the player could go to each place and get an additional location reading to align them manually

[autumn urchin]

Yes, it was your quote after all. I didn't think pinging was necessary. Anyway.
If maps were not helpful, they would not have been made for centuries. We have parts of maps all the way back to ancient Rome. You can tailor the maps to whatever time period you want, maybe moreso than based upon materials if you find references lacking. (papyrus, paper, gps.) Ancient Roman maps worked well enough people found their way around all of Europe at one time, along with roads and waypoints. (double digit AD time period)

[mental kettle]

The idea that player crafted maps wouldn’t be useful shows how much of a psychological crutch the game’s current OP map has become for people.

if players really need a map this desperately, then sketching their own map info would obviously be way more useful than having no map at all.

And the maps they create would be exactly as useful as they choose to make them.

Plus the sextant would make it pretty easy to get a high level of accuracy.

[dusky talon]

Just make it an empty canvas with a grid so you know the size and you could get the normal map from a quest or recipe or something

[heady wraith]

Or, make it so you interact with the map and it adds the geographical info onto the blank parts, hold it out and interact and spin in a quick circle and it rayscans what you can see and ads that. Then have that map look like the antique atlas (antique atlas my beloved)

That way its not a massive effort to have a small area mapped out but if you go on a huge journey theres a reason to stop every so far/climb mountains to get a better view and add to your map

[clever cliff]

I was actually thinking about this and I think I got another idea how this could work:
Suppose maps worked similar to minecraft where you would open a piece of paper and it would draw the immediate terrain around you. These separate pages could be stored in a book like an atlas, then the player can take maps of terrain, label them and store them for reference later but they still would need to remember what map corresponds to what area (pages could also be taken out of an atlas and traded with other players). This may not have to be a main feature of the game but just an idea for a mod, but I think it would help specifically for my server

[halcyon heath]

I like the idea of roughly ray-scanning the area to determine what gets mapped. It would give us a reason to climb mountains or build tall structures. No idea how the math would work though.

[clever cliff]

alright, gonna refine my og idea here a bit:

The manual mapping system
-first the player starts with drawing/scribbling on papers, which can be tied into a future art/drawing update not necessarily for maps
-then, taking a page from craftable cartography mod, instead of combining the sextant/compass to make/upgrade the world map, the compass and sextant work individually, so that you can find your heading and latitude (N-S) when holding the items. Additionally a watch can be made that can be used to measure which 'timezone' you are in to get a reading on your longitude (E-W) (perhaps a special version of this for the clockmaker?).

The new mapping system
-Now on your piece of paper, you can physically place it on the ground/table and click it with the sextant to add latitude lines/measurements, click it with the compass to add headings, click it with a clock to add longitude lines/measurements and holding it in your offhand while using a surveying device will make a map of the immediate visual area. Holding the map in offhand while using the prospecting pick will update ore readings and give other information around that area, waypoints can be added as well. The map however will only show the player icon if they are holding the right tools (wearing a watch and holding a sextant will give a player position icon, holding a compass will give an arrow showing player facing direction).
-This physical map can be added to a new book called the atlas, that can store as many maps as the player makes and using the atlas acts as a world map. Removing map pages from the atlas removes information from the map, adding pages updates the map, and pages can be transcribed/traded with other players. Right clicking on a section of the world map will bring up options to remove or copy the page from your atlas
-The Jonas Positioning System craftable device will work to automatically fill your atlas/world map and functions kind of like a radar, which requires gears as fuel.

-the treasure hunter can also sell physical maps of story locations that can be added to the atlas and include a waypoint to help you navigate there (to make a physical map of story location story chunks will be loaded briefly on world creation and their chunks mapped to a separate map data file for use by the treasure hunter to sell accurate maps)

-to kind of flesh out this atlas map idea, the world map will be split into grid sections, each grid section can be right clicked to bring up some options: transcribe the map section into a separate piece of paper that can be traded with other players to update their own map or delete a map section. atlas's will also be physical items stored on a separate part of the character's clothing screen so it is not lost on death. Atlas books can be removed and traded with others as well, with the world map data being tied to each atlas.

-also individual map sections, whether transcribed from the atlas or made directly can be displayed on a wall to make a map room

^^ I think this would be much easier/better to implement and offer better immersion/functionality than my original post, it also gives the player freedom to: trade and display maps and information, draw their own maps or make more detailed and accurate maps, gives in game items to aid navigation, and late game gives a GPS style map as a reward for progressing through the game^^

[mental kettle]

i like the idea of maps being organized along a grid, and viewing adjacent map segments aligned together

[shell cairn]

I sort of wish the game would do a what can the player see from where they are.
like if the player is at the bottom of a valley it can´t map out anything beyound the the top.
and if they are in a plain and there is a big hunking mountain next to them whats behind the mountain is left unexplored.

I can´t MS paint well.
but the example here.
a valley flanked by two mountains (or whats it called) some some of it have snow (the white bits).
the right one is how it works right now in game where you can see whats behind the mountains.

the left even thought its inside draw distance its still unexplored to the player.

[clever cliff]

The game would need a way to calculate what the player can and can't see then

[shell pebble]

hopefully the game is already doing this via culling, for performance

[fathom orchid]

if you have two monitors you can just do this

[undone valley]

i don't think line-of-sight is very hard to calculate no matter what

[burnt socket]

It would imagine it to actually be very expensive. You'd need to trace at least one ray from every top layer block, that isn't already on the map, to any player that has it's chunk loaded

[undone valley]

firstly it doesn't have to be perfect, a little bit of inaccuracy won't be noticed and will most likely be hidden later anyways.
second, like rainnifer said occlusion culling is a thing and thus this should already be happening, and it clearly isn't something that causes any issues for games in general to implement

also the Farseer mod uses existing heightmaps to generate LODs, which could also be used for a rough first pass of determining LoS

[halcyon heath]

It would look pretty weird if it were too granular, some degree of blobbiness to the visibility would be more normal I think

[shell pebble]

yeah occlusion culling and other forms of culling have been a thing for optimization in games for yeeears. it's done to increase performance (if it were too expensive to do like people expecting ray calculations and stuff then it wouldnt be considered a performance optimization)
if this game didnt have that then youd be rendering every block at all times, which is obviously horrible for performance

[mental kettle]

let's goooooooooooooo!

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/42149

[nocturne urchin]

huge

[tulip urchin]

heard about this being worked on from that mod page. cool to see people working on this! i was planning on taking this on eventually but it seems like a massive pita

[jolly schooner]

🎉

[bleak fog]

The old minimap would be great for Explorer game mode as a default option. Harder/more immersive difficulties like Homo Sapiens could use this new map idea instead.

[twin cypress]

this but no map sounds fun

[twin cypress]

we should be able to make clay tablets for super early game, like this mod, since its free hand drawing, it can be used for map
https://mods.vintagestory.at/cuneiformwriting

[mental kettle]

Looks like potentially another L for the naysayers.

[clever cliff]

Ooh, I haven't been here in awhile, it's nice to see some mods adding sketching to the game! Very handy

[tame patio]

lol I was just coming to show you this, haha.

https://mods.vintagestory.at/terratag

This one also exists.

[midnight walrus]

this is an extremely cool idea that I'd personally like but many new players are going to hate it, refuse to read the handbook, get lost and uninstall the game

[undone valley]

that already applies to the entire game

"why can't i break logs? how do i make wooden tools then??"

[dusk parrot]

If someone doesn't want to read a guide they will probably not quit at the map part

Like 90% of game progression requires at least some reading

[midnight walrus]

true but the tutorial explains that rather quickly and through steps

[undone valley]

So explain the map as well?

[midnight walrus]

yeah but the map is as not easily split into smaller chunks to learn one after the other, you either know where you are and where the stuff you're looking for is or you don't
I could be wrong though, that's just my first thought

[mental kettle]

Minecraft doesn’t have a map in early game, and their maps are pretty limited. Didn’t stop it from becoming the largest game in history.

That said, this is an opt-in map system so it wouldn’t be on by default.

[midnight walrus]

well yeah but minecraft is easy and you don't need to travel or mark spots with ressources

[torn moss]

Ohhh you gonna like this one hehe, during testing i added a grid system i feel like it could be used in a map in some way. Many great ideas here! It will take me a bit to read it all and take a grasp of your ideas and expectation but you get my full support, it sounds awesome ;D

[tame patio]

I don’t think we’ll ever have a secondary opt in map system.

That feels like functionally just a mod you can install at that point.

[mental kettle]

this has already been mentioned a number of times, but if VS had a drawing system already worked into the map, which it absolutely should, there would be no reason not to just allow that to be enabled as the map system.

Jean's mod above already demonstrates how a drawing system can work beautifully, so we can now put that to rest.

and obviously this kind of drawing system would be a lot of fun to add to the existing map

certainly more immersive than the GPS style waypoints

[twin cypress]

that would be amazing, specially with something to measure not only distance, but distance in the x y and z

something that could measure distance and angle from a specific point

either the game calculated it for you

or you could calculate it

trig my beloved

[twin cypress]

this would likely be a hardcore mode

i love math so much

trigonometry is the most useful math imo

[tame patio]

I’ve never once said we shouldn’t have a drawing system. Just that programming it is an arduous task. Unless this modder wants to give us their code the existence of the mod doesn’t change the realities at all.

[snow perch]

Honestly the idea is great, and I'd love to be able to get rid of the omniscient GPS. But drawing myself something useful, that doesn't look atrocious, with a mouse, scares me

[tame patio]

There are too many users that would want something more involved that has nothing to do with drawing.

I don’t know that I see any use to drawing “on the map” that isn’t fulfilled by the sketchbook mod, assuming the map is just blank.

I think most users don’t want the GPS player pin in that case. Maybe I’m wrong!

To me the bigger use is being able to just draw onto the map itself.

[shell pebble]

i wont be able to draw anything that i would remember (id forget what it even was due to how bad it looks)
but tbh the existence of such a thing (the sketchbook mod) does make me interested in trying a no map run..

[tame patio]

I just want a mapping system that feels like it simulates the character drawing the map.

I don’t personally see the specific value in forcing the player to draw the map.

[shell pebble]

i guess thats what the paper map design attempted

[tame patio]

I mean it needs to be more involved than something like Minecraft, still.

Proper cartography just you’re not forced to draw the shapes yourself.

Allowing people to also draw onto the map at the same time then solves most of the issues Neph takes with my suggestions.

[shell pebble]

id most likely just draw a circle as the current landmass i reside on, and then if i go over the ocean and find something else i'll put another circle where i think it was, but yeah itd overall be pretty hard to be accurate about anything currently

[tame patio]

I’m just not convinced it’s the generally most desirable option.

[snow perch]

Having a usable map (not gps, just usable) and being able to draw on top of it features or symbols or stuff, would be incredible

And for the hardcore ones, the map would be blank?

[shell pebble]

so sketchbook implementation but on top of a more simplified paper designed map? sounds good enough i suppose

[tame patio]

My generally thought was that something like the sketchbook mod would be cool either way.

And I think Tyron has mentioned the possibility of something like that as a painting system, or whatever.

And so I’ve never been convinced the map needs it as well.

I personally just find the concept of chicken scratch writing with a mouse very unappealing.

I would rather role play as doing it and have it turn out aesthetically pleasing.

Someone that wants can still after all theoretically make a map with drawing another way eventually, you know?

Be it in-game or out of game.

Neph sees this as me ignoring or misunderstanding the concept, or even as misrepresenting it, I think.

But to me it seems pretty simple that the concept only makes sense if you view the game as it currently is rather than with an eye for all features long term.

[snow perch]

I mean you're allowed to have you own interpretation/suggestions

But yeah having an in-game way to make a usable map and other stuff like compass/sextant, plus the ability to draw on stuff, blank paper or map, would be a good think imho

I haven't read the whole thread and I know people would want different things, but that seems reasonable enough for casual/hardcore

[mental kettle]

the appeal of being able to draw directly onto the map is pretty obvious and in keeping all of the themes of the game, especially with Jean's mod now showcasing how aesthetically nice and immersive it can be. explaining it over and over again to people who are never going to grasp it feels a bit tiresome.

as it's been pointed out before, it's the type of idea somebody just needs to make a mod out of before some people will "get it"

[tulip urchin]

is anyone currently working on making this a mod?

[jolly schooner]

I've long floated the idea of survey tools of some kind. Even if it is just something like the Spyglass mod that renders distance from your location to the block/item/entity you are looking at.

I'll list what I'd like to see again, for the fun of it:

• In game drawing system for player made maps. ☑️
• Survey tool for scoping distance to a viewed target.
• "Sextant" device that gives the player's relative distance from the equator/polar region.

Important that the last one be a "relative" distance, not a block count.

[shell pebble]

i was thinking it would be neat to have a cartography table allow you to "stitch" together these crafted maps you make, so that you can over time combine more and more into one item that unfolds to the total map youve made so far (probably would be hard to make tho)

i know in minecraft maps expand in size when adding paper, but for vintage story i was thinking something more immersive. where you lay down the maps on the table and can manually arrange them to the positions you want before "stitching" together or so

[jolly schooner]

Pages in an atlas that could be taken out/copied and pieced together on a wall to make a large wall map.

[kindred olive]

There is alot going on Here and i Like the core Idea But rarer that the Player draws the map i would Love that you use your map Tool and then it creates the map for you

Does that make Sense ?

[jolly schooner]

That's just an auto map with an extra step and a tool requirement.

[kindred olive]

That is right , But releves some of the presure some If the people mentent

[torn leaf]

I mean I'd be okay with a tool that quickly draws an extremely simplified map of the area around you.

[torn leaf]

Not a lot of people mention this but with maps implemented in this way we have options for mapping out caves or large structures. It's one of the things I find most intriguing considering the current map can only show the surface.

[tired steppe]

Could an addon mod be made that adds relative tools for the sketchbook mod? such as a compass and sextant. Simultaneously disabling the vanilla in game map and handing over direction and coordinates to the tools presented in said addon? The problem I have is how would we solve mapping in the early game before you have the chance on making a sketchbook and the tools? Maybe clay tablets to write info down, landmarking with standout terrain, rockpiles, bonfires, etc. Could early sketching be done with Papyrus sheets and charcoal? Early directioning done by looking at the sun. I haven't got a clue how to determine coordinates without a sextant though.

[tame patio]

That feels really strange to me, as the appeal of your idea is incredibly obvious at face value, in my opinion.

In case is wasn't clear from what I've said before, I think your idea is appealing, and I think it's technically possible, I just don't think it fits the vanilla gameplay.

And I, even more importantly, don't think a system that rich can be an "optional feature".

It's too much time investment for vanilla to be a feature 90% or more of people will completely opt out of (because they want the GPS).

[leaden stag]

I kind of want a hybrid, to be honest. I like having a map, but I'd like to be able to draw on the vanilla one.

[tame patio]

Yeah I think being able to draw on the map is a fun feature without a specific downside.

[mental kettle]

That would bring us 90% of the way there. Only big thing left would be to just allow a more “hardcore” option where the map remains blank parchment unless people draw on it.

The game already allows the player to turn the map off entirely. If drawing on the map is added, I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t also allow an option for the map to remain blank unless players draw on it.

For me that’s the main idea. The Sextant and other navigation mechanics can be worked around that.

[bronze raven]

Yeah, it would be so nice to have a map on wilderness survival, and think about spending the nights drawing a map in your home, true vintarian experience

[mental kettle]

Meant to reply, this grid looks excellent!

It also hadn’t occurred to me until now, but having the map held up to the side so you can simultaneously assess how it corresponds to the landscape is also a really good idea.

[bronze raven]

Amazing

[torn moss]

I've been playing with the sketchbook system

I made a new "map" system based on the sketchbook, in a way that the map is now an item and once you open it, you get a very very rough and barely visible shapes of the land, but its on you to fill it out! And you can do that with stamps, ink and text.

Also there isn't a problem with maps given to a player by traders cuz the mod disables the vanilla map and all the maps given to you will just give you "x blocks distance" when you click on it

Its rough now, in need of lots of polish but I think there is something there, I am going to draw all the stamps. Luckly I'm a graphic designer so i love doing little things like that

also I will be upfront about it, my stamps will be inspired by the StarRaven's cartography brushes https://www.deviantart.com/starraven/art/Sketchy-Cartography-Brushes-198264358 since the author mentioned - "You don't have to ask my permission to use these (except for commercial purposes*) - the answer is yes."
They wont be 1:1 of course but the inspiration will be visible cuz i very much love the style

[leaden stag]

OMG THIS IS SO GOOD

[torn moss]

@mental kettle Hope thats going to strike somewhere in the middle of people's need for no map and some map

[undone valley]

i really like using stamps to make most of the map

(i have the artistic ability of a hamster)

[torn moss]

Yeah that was also something I was aware of from the other conversations. With enough stamps anyone will be able to create their own fantasy map (and i plan on adding 80 stamps at first, so its a nice number to start with)

[bronze raven]

The goat

[tired steppe]

@torn moss Would it be possible to make it compatible with salty’s terratag? I think the two existing together would be the ultimate combination

[torn moss]

Uuf, as salty says "everything is possible" but it would be difficult

Im not sure how well my system can adapt, it was born literally three hours ago hahah

[tired steppe]

It’s no problem if it doesn’t end up working. Looking forward to seeing where the mod heads regardless 🙏🏻

[jolly schooner]

And there we have it, folks. 😉

[torn moss]

Good thing you poked me about it cuz i would have no idea to try

[jolly schooner]

I might ask for a few small custom icons for some Rustbound content.

If that is possible.

[torn moss]

Sure thing!

[jolly schooner]

Let me think on it and I'll let you know what I'm looking at.

[mental kettle]

lol that was so quick! 😂

It looks absolutely fantastic!

[mental kettle]

would it be possible to get an old timey style map font, like this?

extra points if you can rotate and arc them

[torn moss]

Nice! Shouldn't be a problem!

[mental kettle]

whoooo!

this is so cool

the stamps are gonna be even more useful than i realized, and will wind up unifying a sort of Standard map style

but would of course be great if players could create their own stamps too

i guess the challenging part will be figuring out the smartest way to break maps down into fragmented items that players can share and combine together

maybe there can be two types of maps, a players' full atlas, but then also fragmented individual maps, which players can exchange and add to the atlas

[winter condor]

just make a map of your playthrough in Wonderdraft smh

[mental kettle]

$30 for a separate program that can't be used in game? i'm good lol. thanks tho 😄

[undone valley]

Just make a map of your world in qgis

Centimeter accuracy

[torn moss]

I think it can be done, i could potentially create a new stamp group with lets says 10-20 slots and leave the placeholders there, and person that would want their own stamp would be required to make a "patch" mod that would just add the pngs into the correct folder

[mental kettle]

ah. well maybe in the future it can be expanded to make custom stamps from within the game, but having the ability to mod it is good

i don't want to give you too much to do since you're already doing a lot, but as a long term consideration maybe any little tweaks that can be made to the interface options or brush tools to fit the style and themes of real life map drawing, like favor brush thickness or shapes or colors that best emulate the materials or the names of the options, like "eyedrop" or "text" could have a different theme.

these are all tinier considerations but you've made so much progress on this so quickly that's where we're at now 😄

overall this looks amazing

[jolly schooner]

Greetings...
I've given it some thought, and have decided that I don't want to request anything Wilderlands/Rustbound specific.

What I would ask for though, which I think would fit well and be useful in general (and very well might already be planned if not already implemented):

• An icon or set that would allow for marking devastated terrain on a large and small scale (small and larger devastation stamps). Rustbound has riftspires that generate in the world. They look like devastation content, so any stamps that work for marking devastation on a small scale would work for marking a spire, while stamps for marking larger areas would work for marking any devastation terrain surrounding them.
• A "brush" that allows for shading over an area of a drawing without replacing the lines that have been drawn. Basically a way to brush shadows onto the map, such as what one might want to do to mark unstable regions.

I think I read that you may add a way for modders to upload customized icon/stamps. If that ends up in the mod, I can look at adding customized stamps for other things and not bother you with them.

Also- I have no idea how you could work a cave layer into the mapping feature, but that would be worth thinking about.

(Maybe no one else would use it, but I have a caves mod that I'd certainly be using various map layers for)

[crystal zephyr]

I haven't read through this, only skimmed through. Just thought I would add my experience with maps from TFC.

Pretty quickly I got used to not having a map at all. You start looking at landmarks and especially the geology of an area ("okay, I'm crossing out of the limestone area"). That helps keep track.

I would probably be okay without a map at all in VS until being able to follow even a Minecraft style implementation.

However, with story locations being specific locations so far away. You would absolutely need some way of at least representing those directions easily enough that you don't force yourself to get lost.

[torn moss]

No no for sure, no worries things like that can be added to the roadmap etc and slowly worked for hehe

[torn moss]

Most of the work was already done thanks to the sketchbook! And thanks to the sketchbook I already know what to look for in potential bugs/optimization so thats neat

[torn moss]

Great! Fair point about the icons, the devastation one could easily fit into the "lore" group or misc

[torn moss]

I actually wanted to do that! I'm not sure how to approach it yet

[torn moss]

Ohhhh ingame stamp creator, that would be sick tho!

[mental kettle]

One idea we had was to have prospect info marked on like a translucent paper that could be overlaid over the map, so you could toggle it on and off. Maybe caves can similarly operate on an extra layer, or even multiple layers.

Maybe prospecting markings could be done with their own stamps on an extra translucent layer, to make it aesthetically consistent. Could also have a paper turning sound effect when you toggle it on and off.

[jolly schooner]

Understood. It'd work for shading unstable areas, but I'd be using it to mark Riftspire AOE zones on the map, which can be quite large (up to 600 blocks in diameter).

[torn moss]

Added rotation for the stamps and some stability improvements, lads its very cool ive been stuck making maps instead of progressing the mod

[leaden stag]

I would like to move to Hills of Doom please.

[torn moss]

Love me some Hills of Doom

nice neighborhood

[halcyon heath]

Great for sledding in winter

[jolly schooner]

I think some current nay-sayers are going to be surprised just how fun a feature such as custom map drawing is actually going to be.

And sketching in general... Lot of fun to be had with that.

[shell pebble]

this progress is awesome

[mental kettle]

For real. People forgetting how creative players are and that the sandbox format is at its core an outlet for creativity. This is the type of thing that can and should nurture that.

[mental kettle]

I’m really impressed by how well the stamps are nailing the aesthetics. This is going to make the mapmaking process super intuitive, easy and enjoyable, while still retaining an element of mystery and some investment of effort. It’s also going to unify a standard aesthetic style while still enabling a lot of creativity.

Stamps were such a good idea.

[torn moss]

Thank you!!! Its also very fun to draw them, i do it every time im on break at work or when im waiting for something

[mental kettle]

Not my idea btw, I don’t think. Can’t remember who came up with it but it’s such a good idea.

[mental kettle]

They look so excellent!

[torn moss]

I can't take much credit for it, its basically a combination of the ideas from this discussion heheh, which was actually awesome for references etc

this mod's credit/contribution page is going to be insane hehe

[mental kettle]

Lol.

It’s so cool to see a good idea finally find someone who is able to implement it.

[torn moss]

I also added neat little feature, rhe map can be placed on the scroll rack and it rolls up into nice "rolled" shape

Just like the letter or the paper item

[mental kettle]

ah that's awesome

what are your thoughts on how to treat the individual maps? do you think there is a sensible way to break them into smaller finite maps and then have a larger sort of atlas?

i'm wondering because Minecraft has a sort of convoluted map system with different sizes of maps and no way to control their exact range, so i've been trying to think of the most intuitive and convenient way for it to work in VS

the idea of having a full infinite atlas on you at all times does seem a little OP

however having smaller maps automatically align correctly to a larger atlas does seem like a good idea

but i'm wondering how finite maps can be handled that would make them useful but not too confusing or convoluted to manage with a bunch of different sizes or something

i thought maybe finite maps could be broken into a grid. you could have one panel as a small map, and then add panels to extend them wider or taller, and maybe have a max scale at like 16x the size or something

though the question would then be how do you control where that grid aligns without making sort of inconsistent map grid alignments

cuz sometimes a player would want a map that aligns directly over their base in the center, for example. if the map grid is global and static, then the build could wind up landing in between the borders of the grid and getting cut off

unless maybe the standard maps follow an accurate grid, but then the player could sometimes create a special "freeform" map with freer control of alignment

this is one of the design questions i haven't resolved in my head

[shell pebble]

ive seen it happen here a few times, the sketchbook/maps, the terrain slabs, someone was even working on some stuff with stability thanks to the suggestion threads. its cool to see modders be inspired by these and that its not strictly just for devs to handle

[undone valley]

One very simple option I think is fine is to just require more pages to map more area

It's still magic but at least it's ONLY spatial compression magic

[mental kettle]

that seems to be a sensible approach, but i'm wondering about how to handle the global grid alignment

i guess maybe just let there be a standardized grid alignment for the world that each page fits into, and then if you want a more specific alignemtn for a specific map that could be a specialized version maybe

so like the world's standard map grids would be like 256x256 blocks beginning at 0x0 spawn

and continuing from there

something like that

[shell pebble]

i think it would be fun to just have pages that you can pin to a wall or "attach" together into a main map item where you want them to be. not sure how possible that is

im imagining drawing out an island on one page, and later on a fresh page mapping out something else, and then just pinning it with the other map in the "general direction" it was at maybe

[undone valley]

I personally wouldn't want actual separate pages, I'd rather have it be convenient but with styling so it feels like paper maps

[shell pebble]

by page i didnt mean flipping to them like a book but more like "mini" maps on a page of paper? like he said a full atlas may feel a bit op, so these are just small maps you can place together i guess?

[undone valley]

It's the kind of thing where you lack so many of the things that makes the process easier IRL, that having it be video game-y is just replacing those things

[mental kettle]

i thought the map could be viewed as an alignment of 3x3 or 4x4 grid segments

and you could rearrange each segment to view the whole thing together

but would be viewed as a single map

so you could carry those map segments on you if you want to view that particular area

but the grid could visually arrange them as a single map if you wanted to view them that way

if that makes sense

[undone valley]

Oh you mean literally having the actual pages on a virtual table

[mental kettle]

yeah

just for ease of visualization

and maybe maps could be of different sizes, you could have a 1x1 grid map, or a 4x4 grid map, etc.

getting real into the weeds on the mechanical behavior here but this has been on my mind

[shell pebble]

i think having such a table could introduce a bit of "progression" with mapmaking, where you need this table and 'tools' to put the maps together, otherwise you will have the single pages for a while. maybe its too gamey tho

[undone valley]

Yeah i think something like this would be good, I'd probably skip grids and just have it be freeform though

Like you drag pages around as you wish, and the scale of the paper decides the resolution in that area

[shell pebble]

thats what i was wanting too, to be able to put them together in whatever way you want, you may not always draw in the perfect spot of the page for the grid

[mental kettle]

if that's technically convenient that would be preferred. i guess i was having a hard time visualizing how that would work and relate to each "page"

[undone valley]

Literally just like a collage on a table

[shell pebble]

maybe not so messy lol but im sure you can get the idea

as for bringing such a thing with you on travels, im unsure about

[undone valley]

Again, it has to be playable in the end

What'd be nice is if you had extra tools at a cartography table, to make mapping easier, but it was still doable in the field

[mental kettle]

according to slop

Old explorers and mariners carried maps, particularly Portolan charts and vellum sheets, in a variety of containers designed to protect them from moisture and damage, with the most common being map tubes, leather cases, or secured in chests.
Map Tubes/Cases: Maps were typically rolled up and placed inside tube-shaped containers, often made of leather or sturdy material, to protect them from the harsh, wet conditions of sea travel.
Wooden Rollers & Leather Ties: Charts (like vellum Portolan charts) were often attached to a wooden roller and secured with leather straps.
Chest Storage: In the 1400s and later, maps were kept in the navigator’s or captain's cabin, often stored in wooden, waterproof, or secured chests.
Atlases: In some cases, maps were bound into book form (atlases).
These methods were crucial, as early maps were frequently made on fragile vellum (animal skin) or paper, which could easily be damaged by salt water.

[shell pebble]

maybe the stamps can be at that table, and out in the field you have to make rough sketches. on the table you can make it more precisely?

[undone valley]

Yeah

Make sketches on the go, then redraw properly at a table

[shell pebble]

i think it would overall be cool to have enough substance with this mapmaking, where you can become a designated mapper for a team and things like that. like other fields in the game

[undone valley]

And you have to actually craft the tools you want to use, ofc

[mental kettle]

one method

[undone valley]

Straight ruler, circular ruler, compass..

[shell pebble]

like the quiver but map slots

[mental kettle]

i guess those would just be sheets then, not quite a book or anything

[shell pebble]

yea by pages i wasnt meaning a book

[mental kettle]

ya i'm just thinking out loud

[undone valley]

I'm still iffy on having to think overmuch about logistics of managing the map materials

[shell pebble]

i just think this is a great step at making the map system "in world" and immersive compared to how it is now

[undone valley]

Sure but like, what's the fun part: drawing the map or keeping track of sheets?

[shell pebble]

i think id enjoy the whole thing

well if the sheet part was possible to be more convenient i suppose

[tulip urchin]

the separate map pieces you have to align manually on an main map book sounds amazing but i could see not wanting to have it that in depth especially in sp. it sounds like something that should be toggleable since its such a huge mechanical change in gameplay

[shell pebble]

if they could just be "stapled" together or moved at will from the table i think thatd help

[mental kettle]

i guess old atlases were just books

[shell pebble]

im usually all for anything that overall adds more things to do in the game. like hydrate, and in dappled groves. i know those systems are controversial tho, many players just want to do things quickly and move on it seems.. this map system would get similar treatment i know

[mental kettle]

yeah i think the organization of the maps should be automated for ease of gameplay purposes, just more limited in scope than having an infinite atlas

drawing on the map is already asking things of the player, so it should be as easy as possible to manage them

[undone valley]

The big thing I fear is going "where did I put that paper? Oh fuck i've lost all that work now, fuck this game I'm playing among us"

[mental kettle]

i think the idea of having a map roll with a limited number of slots is not a bad idea

[shell pebble]

😭 tbh i already lose so many lanterns leaving them places too

[undone valley]

I think the one hard requirement I have is that at some point it all gets collated into a convenient and hard to fuck up format

[mental kettle]

if it's free form maybe the map display can just show all the maps laid out and aligned properly together, sheets overlapping one another

[mental kettle]

yeah trying to think of the simplest intuitive way to manage them

but without being infinite op atlas

[shell pebble]

i want the freeform cause i know that i would struggle aligning things to a grid, especially when each map is created on its own

[mental kettle]

putting the different map pieces into a single item seems like it could be a sensible move, so you don't have to move them around your inventory, you can just open that one item and all the maps are displayed in proper alignment

[undone valley]

Well yeah, just gave a non-infinite non-op atlas lol

[shell pebble]

yea thats what im thinking would be good, with the table being used to create/edit this single map collage of your maps

[mental kettle]

something like that sounds like a good approach

will have to see how Jean feels like it fits into their implementation

[undone valley]

For extra differentiation from the current GPS app, you could have different "pages" of the atlas for different scales, so you can't zoom infinitely on a single view

And at a table you get a UI that helps you keep the scales consistent

[mental kettle]

depending on how convoluted it is to implement these ideas will probably have to get filtered through what is practical for Jean to manage, but the ideas are good

having both huge scale maps and tiny scale maps would be nice

but i have no idea how much of a pain this stuff is to implement 😄

[undone valley]

You'd still need to have a similar UI to the current one, but like, changing the zoom could play a page flip animation or something

Because otherwise it'd be hell trying to find the same spot on a different scale

[mental kettle]

flipping pages seems cool

tho having separate scales of maps at varying levels of detail seems like it could complicate the implementation. so originally i was imagining the grid system as a way of scaling it up

but i dunno, maybe there's a clean way of doing it

i feel like i'm throwing lots of ideas out but also trying to keep it simple

[tulip urchin]

different zoom levels is probably necessary just because some areas you are going to want a lot more detail while other areas youll have mostly vague sketches of the terrain but wont need the level of detail so itd be easier to map large areas at low zoom

[mental kettle]

i definitely would want to be able to see a whole continent all at once

[tulip urchin]

like mapping an entire mountain range with the zoomed in one would be a pain and its most likely you arent going to put much there

[mental kettle]

or several continents

so yeah, some kind of scaling is gonna be necessary

but then that could beg the question, do you have different scales of stamps?

probably not i dont think

[tulip urchin]

id imagine the large undetailed terrain features will be hand drawn as you are mostly just tracing around the landmark

maybe some textured brushes to fill inbetween the lines would work better for that

[mental kettle]

these stamps do a great job of providing a range of details. mountains, hills, flatlands, forests, bushy fields, a house, etc.

this is probably too advanced, but i was even imagining brushes which emulate the way map outlines of continents or water bodies are illustrated, with extra rows of lines drawn to suggest shadow, etc.

that's definitely getting super granular tho

[tulip urchin]

i believe the game already does topography lines so there may be a good system to semiautomate that

like a tool you can take around and autofill heightmaps

[safe sedge]

YOOO??????/

[safe sedge]

vital playtesting 👍

looks sweet btw

[safe sedge]

it would be awesome if you could get a semi filled in map of the path towards the locations based on the biomes, perhaps even with some special landmarks around

[shell pebble]

made me realize with this little system we can do all kinds of things the gps map doesnt really have, like mapping out the horizontal shape of mountains (y axis) like the hills of doom there
i cant wait to play with it, but ill do that in my new playthrough, waiting for a good time for all the mod updates etc

and different brushes will be awesome yeah

[torn moss]

Oh yea I've been thinking about potential ways this could be done. I'd break this down into couple of segments:

Vanilla experience
So the vanilla map is indeed imo too op. I get it that its "gamified" but its way too gamified for me. Especially the one with full color, you can spot trades, points of interest or even rock types from far far away. Also you get one immediately and its infinite

What we have now:
I'd call it vanilla+ map, the map is still "infinite" but now you need to craft it and maintain it, so thats the first additional step. The mod makes the map barely readable, you must really take your time to "study" it to get a grasp of the terrain and even if you do get a grasp of whats going on, you are sort of "pushed" to use the stamps and other tools to fill out the map.

Early game problem
What will happen before you acquire the proper map? leaving the player without the map until roughly around copper age may cause a bit of a headache. My approach would be to make a "crude" map, made out of cheap materials, that would have only the basic basic features (so a crude brush, eraser and a text tool), and it would not be infinite, it would be set on a specific chunks, could be 8x8 16x16, 32x32 etc.

And now** the individual maps**
Giving the player option to make crude map with a set amount of chunks naturally sparks the question, will they be able to combine those in some sort of atlas, or a book. Right now I'm not sure how this could be achieved, like technically im not sure how to do that ;/ So i'd put that in a sort of future config option into the roadmap, where they mod could be configurated in a way that you build your atlas out of individual maps instead of one infinite.

[torn moss]

Of course heheheh

[torn moss]

But the most important thing: the system is practically there ^^ once people start playing with we will be able to move it and shift it to make the most out of it

[torn moss]

Someone mentioned it but, having a map, going on a scout with it and marking things down etc. and then coming back, refining it and adding it into some sort of atlas of the region sounds incredibly cool

[safe sedge]

Im imagining having to manually add scouted maps to the atlas by having the uis for both open at once

Well not an atlab but a much larger scale map

[jolly schooner]

I'm over here wondering how this could be used to map caves...

Not that vanilla caves give you a whole lot to map, but my cave mod does.

[torn moss]

Oh yeah the cave layer

I need to take a crack at it

[jolly schooner]

I mean, It’s a very mod-specific use case. Not sure I’d bother with building something around it.

Vanilla caves are meandering tunnels winding through a 3D space. I don’t know how you would create a sketching mechanic (or stamps either) to map those on a 2D pad.

My cave mod, however, creates a world-spanning system of fracture cave layers.

[torn moss]

yea that is a nice system

[jolly schooner]

Def. something that could be mapped, but a very mod specific feature.

If the map is tied to an item, there may not be any need for another feature. Just acquire a new atlas item and sketch a new map.

If players need another map for some other type of cartography, they just get a new, empty atlas and go to work.

Or the map could be upgraded for layers. Selecting layer 1 shows you what you've sketched on the surface, for example. Selecting layer two gives you another surface to sketch on, aligned to the same surface map location.

So if I'm traveling and looking at my surface map (layer 1) I've sketched and I want to see what I've mapped for the underground in that location, select layer two.

Add multiple layer options. One might be surface terrain, another caves, another simply a prospecting map, etc.

[halcyon heath]

Could look at examples of how people mapped out caves long ago

[halcyon heath]

I think this would work

Potentially useful reference I found interesting

[torn moss]

We are getting there!

Map of elder ring is also a great source of inspiration

Also more improvements, a bit of dead code cleanup from the sketchbook and new feature! Now you can see a preview of the stamp or text hovering next to the cursor, its going to be easier to space out the text and stamps now

[shell pebble]

i think some stamps or pins to mimic the existing ones in the gps map would be good too, for more precise things like cave entrance, mushrooms, etc

[torn moss]

Fair point!

[leaden bloom]

Stumbled on this thread from the Sketchbook mod page and I'm so excited for the map functions

[leaden bloom]

Regarding this point, I wonder if there's a way to overlay the maps you create over the world map? I've seen another cartography mod that makes it require items to fill in the space, maybe a similar system could work? (I say this with very little knowledge of how coding this would even work)

[tame patio]

I think if this is developing into a full on mod the discussion should move to a mod thread.

[brittle prawn]

i like this idea

very nice

[brittle prawn]

i mean, there is probably still hope from the person who made the mod and the suggestion that it will become a vanilla feature

even if it is becoming a mod to satiate the thirst of the people

[torn moss]

Sure thing! I'll create a mod post and I'll more with the updates there, also thank you for your contribution to this post as you gave plenty of valuable information ☺️

[red hornet]

I don't know that I would want to draw a map myself (trying to draw with a mouse or trackpad does not sound like a good time) but having some kind of crude map available for early-game and then progressing to the full GPS map does sound fun. The one caveat I would give from my own experience is that the crude map should be really easy to get, like within your first couple days easy, because foraging for food, stone, and clay in your early days will have you wandering around a lot, well before you've become familiar enough with the landscape to navigate by sight. Maybe if you get lucky enough to spawn in or near a plain, it wouldn't be so bad, but having played on servers without the map before, I find the early days extremely punishing without some means of easily-accessible navigation.

I wonder if it would be possible to tweak the existing map code to first only show outlines of landmasses, then to show major topographical features, then finally plant and terrain textures as you advanced. And maybe the field of view could begin pretty small before expanding, or early maps didn't have the player position or GPS coordinates, but the player position was added to a mid-tier map and the GPS to a high-tier.

[torn moss]

To everyone that would like to keep an eye of the mod, I've made a dedicated post, see you there! ^^ https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1476229374205497477

[shell cairn]

I say that this feel like a difficulty setting at game spawn/start/setup.
world map setting lowest tier and higest tier.
goes from.
none, Crude map, stamp map, the old Black and white GPS map. Colored GPS map.
and you pick the start and end.
aka you can set so that you start whit crude map (this mean that you have crude map and dont need to make it).
you can set start at none max at color gps.
this means that you need to make the crude map equipments.

[teal gate]

Necroposting, but there is a cool combination of mods for the other block game of Antique Atlas and Surveyor where you can set it up so that structures don't appear on the map until you look at them.
Honestly a cruder map would be cool, but I personally think it should stay out of the inventory. I don't like the idea of spending charcoal and parchment and other materials just for my map.

[opaque loom]

Triangulating reminds me of https://store.steampowered.com/app/223510/Miasmata/

Steam

Miasmata

Miasmata is a first-person survival/adventure game, developed from the ground-up by brothers Joe and Bob Johnson. You play as Robert Hughes, a plague-stricken scientist on a journey to discover a cure. Your adventure begins on the shores of a remote and mysterious island. Long ago, the island was inhabited by a group of indigenous people, who…

Price

$14.99

Recommendations

1052

Metacritic

76

[ruby nebula]

I kno right every map mod right now requires copper or metal of some sort.

sigh

I really like immersive maps, the problem with it is that its really hard to see player position, or it only maps a part of a chunk and I wouldn't know where i am

[undone valley]

We'll the Mapper mod only needs a rusted gear or a piece of iron ore, which can be found fairly easily

[ruby nebula]

It doesnt map alot, and also its not easy to get early game imo

[lofty plume]

What if there could be trades from all traders or even quests/optional storyline which makes the map more highres as you trade up/progress?

They said 1.23 will be an update to story I think? It might lead in a direction which makes this idea possible

[safe sedge]

Actually accepts any kinda nugget of metal. For some reason

[mental kettle]

And at last, we now have a proper proof of concept.

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/53436

After a year and a half since this thread was first posted I’m realizing. 😂

[raw canopy]

As an option in the world menu, sure. But not the default. There's too many important things in the game-especially early on-to force a player to make a map like that

[undone valley]

only because vanilla world gen isn't memorable

in my modpack i find it quite doable to navigate without a map, because actual landmarks and LoDs means you can actually memorize where things are

like, you can probably navigate a river valley without a map :)

[mental kettle]

Yeah as I’ve covered many times in this thread, I don’t really buy the argument that you need the ridiculous op GPS map to play the game, players just feel entitled to it because they’re used to having it. If the game came with map progression built into it (which I think is their plan eventually btw) everyone would be arguing that’s a core part of the survival challenge of the game.

[undone valley]

and this goes for so many suggestions: if it was already a thing almost everyone would agree it's obviously good

[mental kettle]

man, i'm testing this mod out, turned the normal map off, and my god it really shows just how addicted we are to the map.

like every 10 seconds i'm hitting M to bring up a map which doesnt exist

it really forces me to look at the terrain

slows me down and makes me jot down information

[undone valley]

granted i have pretty good spatial reasoning, but i've yet to even make a map in my playthroughs lol (with all the mods and stuff)

[mental kettle]

Is this a play though with the new mod?

[undone valley]

The map mod? No

[mental kettle]

You using another map mod on this world or you just disabled the map?

[undone valley]

"Mapper"

But like, I haven't actually ended up using it yet lmao

[mental kettle]

Yeah I have to say I really enjoy not having the map, not feeling the reflex to hit M every 10 seconds. Feels like kind of a relief tbh

And surveying the terrain and marking stuff down feels really really good

Feels very appropriate to me.

[warm hazel]

I always prefer no color on my map purely because it gives less information and is less overwhelming

[mental kettle]

employing it here very mildly

but in general i agree, i tend to avoid color on the map

[warm hazel]

My one issue is that VS doesn't have the same level of interesting landmasses that games like MC let you use for navigation without a map, so you can get lost really easily by just sailing along a shoreline

[mental kettle]

i guess so if you're using vanilla

detail slowly accumulating, just after a few minutes

[warm hazel]

Yeah, 512 world height or a gen mod like yours can produce some fun terrain

[mental kettle]

I can also confirm that, despite people claiming this kind of map would be “useless”, it is in fact super useful. I’m routinely checking the map to find my orientation and find my way back to things I marked.

The big difference is, none of the information is handed to you by the map, you have to feed it the information first, so all of the intel comes from your own exploration.

[mental kettle]

further expanding, after only a little while testing

[jolly schooner]

I've not had time to mess with it yet, but very much looking forward to doing so!

I've cleared another major mod off my plate (that I was not expecting to work on), and, I think, am finally free to wind down a bit and start playing again. 😛

[mental kettle]

i feel like we're cursed to keep making mods sometimes 😄

cant stop myself lol

[jolly schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/columbo-one-more-thing-another-question-peter-falk-jsut-one-more-thing-gif-17115938070953019028

I'm hopeful I can pause for a bit and just maintain/ bug fix what I've got out so far.

The cave-in overhaul was the last pressing issue to deal with, since vanilla cave-ins are a nightmare system for my cave mod.

And of course, it morphed into an entire system overhaul with a deep geological element baked into it.

Because we can't crack open a system like that and just do something simple, of course.

[mental kettle]

i'm hoping to finish all the stuff i'm doing now, finish the final YT video for my current world, and then start a new server

[mellow mesa]

Holy i was craving something like this when i started my first wilderness survival world

My idea, that I made a forum post for a long while ago, was having better drawing implements in your inventory would result in more detail

It would give a reason for even finding graphite in the first place, or mixing dyes outside of just clothing for a clothier

Saving a piece of rusted scrap so you can make black dye for a quill

[halcyon heath]

Feels like going on a walk without your smartphone, lol

You can actually look at the world around you for a change instead of having a portal of nigh infinite knowledge to distract you

[undone valley]

This is why I like hiking lmao

This is.. Advanced walking