Combat Overhaul

[lyric marsh]

siimer's mods balance it for pvp

he runs a pvp server

should probably pin his page for pvp people

[placid tartan]

Unfortunate. The number of changes needed would be rather small. Spam parrying as blackguard basically makes you immortal in Pve and Pvp. Fixing that alone would be a huge upgrade.

[slate valve]

No idea what you mean by spam parrying, is this a bug you found?

[lyric marsh]

you can now block during an attack

or at least on the tail end

surprised pvp people didn't come complaining about it sooner

[placid tartan]

I dont think so it seems to just be a side effect of affinity. Affinity increases the speed of the parry animation meaning you can be in a near constant state of parrying

[slate valve]

Affinity? Do you mean proficiency?

[placid tartan]

Ah. Yeah

Most noticable with blackguard or any custom class thats sword related

Longswords seem to be the most problematic in terms of attacking (as they are faster than shortswords for some reason) while shortswords render you almost entirely invulnerable.

Small considerations such as a short cooldown between parries would solve most of the issue.

[wary swift]

Reading this, I realized I think it would be good if when meeting some criteria, for example (but not necessarily) a damage threshold, a successful attack would also prevent enemies' attacks.
Because in my experience, fighting in the game, with this mod or not, ends up as a "wait for the enemy to swing, go in, do a couple of hits, run away before the next attack".
Parries don't change this formula at all, and I frankly never had a use for them.
Sure, there are ripostes now that let you utilize them a bit better, but it is still a sort of dps race with many enemies.

Implementing some sort of attack interrupt mechanic could also, inadvertently, solve the fact that enemies can still attack you after they're dead, if they started the attack before perishing.

[tranquil onyx]

Vanilla combat being as barebones as it is doesn’t make it better for sure, but reinventing the combat fundamentals is pointless before the devs decide to do it themselves

[wary swift]

"Reinventing combat fundamentals is pointless"
Combat overhaul, overhauling combat fundamentals:

[tranquil onyx]

It’s not reinventing them - it’s merely an enhancement of what’s already in place.

Vanilla game currently doesn’t seem to have a framework for combat being dynamic in any way, say hostile mobs being wounded/exhausted/what have you, with appropriate flags to reflect their state and make encounters with them engaging, nor do they really have an AI that would make them interesting to engage in combat. It’s very rudimentary.

[wary swift]

Damage types, armour responding to said damage types.
What do you mean it's not "reinventing", but adding an ability to affect enemies, outside of just "do damage" and knockback, is.

[split verge]

i think a point needs to made in differentiating combat mechanics influenced by your gear and combat mechanics which are actively controlled by the player's immediate actions in the moment

personally i think the latter is far more important

that's not to say you ought to be able to easily kill end game enemies with a flint spear, but if you don't give any agency to the player apart from their gear, the combat simply wont be fun

[tranquil onyx]

You’d put it in just the words I wanted to convey with my statement, so thank you

CO is still doing plenty to make vanilla pale in comparison, but it’s a horizontal improvement for slightly more variety in say, player equipment, but the way you interact with enemies in combat is wrapped in much of the same actions you’d apply in vanilla

With blocking/parrying being less restrictive and random too, I suppose

Damage and armour types are ultimately „just number tweaks” (light-heartedly) that won’t matter much for people wanting to chase a particular playstyle for combat, and playstyle is what matters the most for the fun factor, as far as I see it

[fallow surge]

There is stagger mechanic

[lyric marsh]

yeah it kinda disables drifters

[tranquil onyx]

Huh. Is that new?

[fallow surge]

It was here for a while. But I dont think many weapons has this enabled

[tranquil onyx]

[fallow surge]

Also I need animations for other entities to add them stagger mehcanic

[lyric marsh]

like a couple months old

[tranquil onyx]

I can’t say I’d been particularly up-to-date on the recent additions, but it’s nice to know that there’s something like that

[placid tartan]

Would love something short like that for players

[lyric marsh]

sounds like a nightmare to make

[fallow surge]

PVP is out of scope

[lyric marsh]

and very op

[fallow surge]

For players this will need its own implementation

[lyric marsh]

as for the parry stagger, i think it's too powerful

[fallow surge]

This is how to add stagger support to entities

I dont have energy to make animations for each entity though

[lyric marsh]

parries are already balanced by their nature of blocking every tier

disabling enemies on top of that is an obvious meta

[placid tartan]

The only issues parry's have are their abiltiy to be constantly spammed and the inability to meaningfully follow up attack with them. The notion that any changes to fix those would be overpowered are an issue of design and implementation.

[lyric marsh]

nah you can cancel a parry halfway once you deflect the attack and can instantly follow up

it's just a superior timing based block

[fallow surge]

you cant, only for weapons that have riposte, but only great sword have one

I dont feel like making a set of animations for other weapons rn

[placid tartan]

I will record a video later of exactly what I am talking about later, but this is not the case

[lyric marsh]

let me see right now

last time i played with parries you weren't locked in the animation

oh it plays the whole animation now

still, the followup is really fast

[placid tartan]

please twohand a longsword as blackguard. Lunge

one hand a shortsword as blackguard and repeatedly parry.

[lyric marsh]

that's fast even as a non blaggard

well, i am not wearing full armor

[wary swift]

I wasn't suggesting it be "tied" to gear at all.
It could be, but doesn't have to be, and in my opinion most likely shouldn't be.
What I had in my head was something along the lines of poise, i.e. different enemies have different "inner stamina", and if you break that inner stamina fast enough, they stagger for a moment, cancelling their current action.

And, again, I'm not saying "add poise because it is the solution to every single problem in the universe".
I am saying "there's a distinct lack of reaction from enemies to players actions, and I think this one particular mechanic could do well to at least partially fill that gap".

[lyric marsh]

seems really fast to me

[placid tartan]

bring in another player as blackguard with a blackguard short sword

have them parry and try to get any damage through

or be on the receiving end of longsword lunges

[lyric marsh]

can't test mp

testing pve, followups are very fast despite parries not being cancellable

[placid tartan]

Sabers seem to be the fastest and worst offender.

[placid tartan]

PVE it is a non-issue unless you have a weak impulse control and are willing to spam parry everything

[lyric marsh]

sabres got faster recently

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/user/BBBBF56C3A1C8851BAEF

peep siimer's mods for your pvp environment

nothing fundamental but makes good pvp changes

like glider being tied to armor slots

[fallow surge]

There is block/parry cooldown though

[lyric marsh]

300 ms is hardly anything

[placid tartan]

3 parries per second, capped by the parry animaton which seems to be effected by class proficiencies

[lyric marsh]

not to my knowledge

it's weapon type based

heavier the weapon the longer the window and animation

[placid tartan]

try parrying with a sword as blackguard and as commoner.

[fallow surge]

parry is not affected by proficiency

[lyric marsh]

trying rn

[placid tartan]

Then my assumption was incorrect and its simply very fast for all 1handed swords.

perhaps my buddy just didnt parry as fast as me input wise

[lyric marsh]

yeah it's the same

[fallow surge]

I added ParryCooldownMs stat

[lyric marsh]

sabre seems faster than shortsword but that might be placebo

cause it's visually way larger

[placid tartan]

exposed in config or need to rebuild?

[fallow surge]

Rebuild?

[placid tartan]

It was because i was working under the false assumptions all tiers of weapons were the same speed. Blackguard shortsword is slower than steel

[fallow surge]

Rebuilding and republishing is not advisable

[placid tartan]

As in, in order to change the setting would i need to dotnet build the mod

[fallow surge]

Moderators wont be happy about it

[fallow surge]

No

[fallow surge]

Try CO 0.14.1

[placid tartan]

I will look at these, thank you

[placid tartan]

is it not inside the yaml file?

[fallow surge]

it is not

each weapon has their own coodowns in their json files

I added cooldowns to vanilla swords

[granite storm]

crawled around in a 1 block space (saltiez crawling mod) and a crawling drifter came to me and ate my ass from behind. I kept trying to hit with my sword, but the space was simply too small for it to swing, so I was getting the punt Punt sound repeatedly. Was the first time I used my dagger as an actual dagger and not like an iron kitchen knife. Great stuff

uhoh, necrobump 💀

[scenic arrow]

He wh

[granite storm]

figure of speech

[fallow surge]

Please dont spam memes

thank you

[scenic arrow]

Idk man, seems like you liked it

[celest jetty]

amazing storytelling

[fallow surge]

Thats offtopic, please remove

[austere prism]

Seeing that you removed the damage reduction to torso from Big Head, shouldn't the trait be red instead of yellow now?

(Being that it's solely negative now)

[lyric marsh]

BEAR FOOTSTEPS FINALLY

a sign of good things to come

maybe they can be buffed after this

[unborn robin]

Why do I feel like I can't hit anything with claymore while on firstperson, but I do on third person ?

[lyric marsh]

are you using ifp

[warm garden]

Any chance Clockmaker can be given Mace Proficiency? With the slashing and piercing damage nerfs, they kind of lack a good option for a 1 handed weapon, and if you play with terrain collison on, trying to whack a locust with a quarterstaff is a nightmare.

[lyric marsh]

just because you're not proficient with a weapon doesn't mean you can't use it

[warm garden]

True, the mace works just fine, just feels strange to be proficient in a 2h blunt weapon, have a nerf to all other 1h melee options, and not have a proficiency in the one weapon that makes sense to use

[lyric marsh]

falx counters the slashing penalty

cause it has one extra tier

[primal quest]

Is Short Swords supposed to only do piercing attacks/animations?

[ebon rune]

you can use arming sword for directional attacks, they are the same in term of stats

[primal quest]

Oh ok, I thought there was a button/toggle I had to do to switch the type of attack

Thanks for the reply

Also, it's supposed to be "slashing damage"?
It's a typo or is really slashing damage?

[scenic arrow]

Yes

It is not a typo

[ebon rune]

yes, logic behind it is that piercing is against animals, blunt is against monsters and slash is bad at both, but kinda works for both

so stuff like forlorn estoc is useful against monsters

[primal prairie]

What's the sawed off shotgun for?

[fallow surge]

For mutants, you use it until get TOZ-34

[primal prairie]

What

[fallow surge]

What?

There are no "sawn off shotguns" in the game. and definetely in CO. What the hell are you talking about?

[primal prairie]

There's a sawed off in one of the firearms mods

It has no crafting recipe

Marimbo firearms or something akin to that name

[fallow surge]

Ask the author then, why you post here?

[primal prairie]

I thought that was yours my bad

[hollow pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/stalker-stalker-yeah-stalker-misery-misery-gif-12438010482466790879

[wary swift]

https://tenor.com/view/ping-gif-19478462

Next combat overhaul update.

[ebon rune]

guys cmon, shotguns are already a thing, next one will be the rpg-7

[unborn robin]

Is it normal i have no directional hits on spear ?

I can only change grip length, and I have huge issues hitting stuff slightly above me or below me even when crouching and looking way down, I have immersive first person ON

I can only hit them 100% of time when in third person

[slim inlet]

I wonder why

[unborn robin]

Thank you I was confused because even off i couldnt see swing, should i change the hands settings ?

Y position and FOV thing

[slim inlet]

iirc spear are thrusting and throwing weapons

With IFP off, they should stab properly

[unborn robin]

ok so my settings are good thank you

and yes now i can hit monsters with the tip of the spear its perfect thank you

[scenic arrow]

There is a mod that automatically switches ifp off when holding a weapon for CO compatibility

If you wanna keep seeing your feet

[ebon rune]

they are disabled by default

[lyric marsh]

i like no directional attacks on spear

the overhead is so situational and ruins fluidity

[ebon rune]

overhead is a lot better to me

[gilded cairn]

Yeah overhead is nice

[gilded cairn]

That's why the camera was flying everywhere

I'd look down and be underground and look up and I'd be flying

[inner canopy]

I know theres not direct compatability, but any info on how swordz and CO work together?

[keen marten]

Could someone point me in the right direction for fixing some spam on my server log.

[Server Warning] Cannot fix itemstack mapping, item/block id 2756 not found in old mapping list. Will delete stack. (CombatOverhaul.Armor.ItemWearableArmor)

I noticed it a couple of days after updating CO, Armory and OverhaulLib a few days ago. Not a priority, but would appreciate any info.

[wary swift]

#1260976245374582886 message

[keen marten]

appreciate the assistance

[fallow surge]

Does anyone have issues on Linux? Any more bugs with melee weapons locked?

I get so frustrated when ppl dont report issues... I need to get used to it already...

Have I missed any reports?

I vaguely remember there was some unresolved bug with it...

[formal hare]

Does Armor Piercing 2 treat the hit as if the target had 2 less protection?

[placid tartan]

I have had no issues on linux

[hollow pasture]

It treats it as if your weapon tier is 2 higher when attacking other players

[formal hare]

ahhh, ty

[lyric marsh]

linux is flawless here

[gentle bane]

May be severe skill issue at play

[placid tartan]

He's talking about the effect where swapping to a weapon doesn't allow you to instantly attack with it.

I assume this is a feature, not a bug

(he would not have been saved from the bear)

[fallow surge]

It is a feeature, though when you swap from weapon to a weapon

[placid tartan]

@fallow surge is there any way to define in json or yaml custom proficiency groups?

[fallow surge]

weapons proficiencies are in their json files

[placid tartan]

I assume I can add any arbitrary proficiency name to them and it'll just work then?

[fallow surge]

yes

[wary swift]

Perhaps what they had is actually the "disabled CO animations" thing.
I have a feeling that there is some condition, perhaps a mod conflict, or maybe some very obscure edge case, that at some points breaks this.
When I had that happen to me, I am certain I didn't hit the button combination to disable it manually.

Or, perhaps, they even actually accidentally hit it.
Maybe there needs to be some warning for when you're trying to use a co item with animations disabled.

[split verge]

is bronze armour worth to make in CO ?

[tranquil onyx]

If you’re not planning on advancing tech very quickly, sure

Otherwise, just get iron asap and do that instead

[lyric marsh]

iron rushing is better but staying on bronze is totally viable

be cool, don't iron rush

[kind epoch]

I sit on tin bronze when teaching ppl to play to help ease them into the game so they don't get information overload & can take their time getting a hang on systems & usually switch to iron after the resonance archives

[slate valve]

I'm in a multiplayer server where metal progression is locked server-wide until we collectively do certain tasks/events and it's honestly super refreshing

I'm rocking copper plate armor

[lyric marsh]

copper plate is so ungodly ugly

[slate valve]

Yes

I'm not a fan of the face plate

[civic dragon]

I'm like 85% sure the bug where you can't swing any weapons is caused by not restarting the game between updating mods, maybe just updating CO itself. I used to get it fairly often until I made sure to close VS every single time I updated any mods, and haven't had a single issue with CO since.

[lyric marsh]

closing the game is just something you should always do

even between world launches

the game should restart itself frankly

would solve like 80% of false reports overnight

[rotund vault]

@fallow surge is it possible to disable the ability for people to bind directional attacks

[lyric marsh]

why would you want that

it's already a disadvantage

[gentle bane]

sounds like someone lost a fight

[rotund vault]

i lose many fights there are lots of good pvpers on my server

i'm curious why it exists when part of the pvp skill expression was getting the correct directional attack to come out mid combat

[slim inlet]

CO isn't made for PvP

[lyric marsh]

it's not about skill at all

the default sensitivity is too high yes

but just lower it?

you can get consistency

i have my direction sens set to some like 0.2?

[rotund vault]

I mean... Yes? Practicing and adjusting settings helps of course but it is still part of the mechanical skill component of CO. I'm not sure what you're saying this for?

[lyric marsh]

malt says direction switching is not supposed to be challenging at all

[wary swift]

Not discrediting your case, but not how it happens for me.
With my mod list, worlds loaded for 10-18 minute, and the game took up nearly all my ram.
I never not closed the game, because I'd either crash and reenter world, or I'd exit the world and stop playing for that day anyway.

[rotund vault]

And yet many people struggle with it. Anyways I will wait for Maltiez to respond about whether this is possible instead of discussing the intended use case versus what players actually use this mod for.

[lyric marsh]

#1260976245374582886 message

this convo already happened basically

[rotund vault]

The reverse happened. I would like to disable the functionality for my server. This is the gameplay experience we want.

[wary swift]

On the technical level, CO is not built with pvp in mind.
It's not even consideration about balance and other stupid fluff like "meta", but just how the calculations, animations and other parts of the internal code are handled.
I took a quick peek at the code, and it's basically that every person who is using CO for pvp is trying to stuff a bigger square into a giraffe-shaped hole.

[lyric marsh]

#1260976245374582886 message

[wary swift]

There is fundamental mismatch between what a pve mod wants to do and pvp mod wants to.
Catering to the pvp people would basically bending over backwards to fight against some of the logic of the mod built already, just to satisfy the two and a half people with giraffe-shaped holes in their hearts.
And, frankly, way I understand it, Maltiez just plainly doesn't wanna do much of pvp, big requests or small.
Maybe it's not an interesting aspect of the mod, maybe (not really even any "maybes" here) they're just frankly tired of it a bit already, ||maybe it's Maybelline||.

Not to mention, slippery slope fallacy is often not a fallacy.
Giving in on one small thing opens the way for the conversation "this was a small thing you did, but you're not doing "our* small thing".

[lyric marsh]

you're rambling now

[wary swift]

Instead of pestering the original author about it, I invite you to do the following:
Patch it yourself.

Learn to code, ask someone else from your server who knows how to code, or anything and everything in between, and patch out the bindable direction attacks from your server only.
Post it as a server tweak, and have everyone install it.

[lyric marsh]

and there's another option

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1436789714702303373

uses the raycast system but makes an infinitely more convincing illusion than vanilla

[rotund vault]

getting hit with a ramble after asking if a config file exists:

anyways thank you for the very roundabout answer to my question full of things i didn't ask about

[wary swift]

Your point was fallacious, and your attitude passive aggressive.

[slender briar]

yo i have like some weird shit going on with my parries

[wary swift]

Easier to front-load the word soup on you first, than to look at you debate with everyone under the sun, original mod author included, cause you want someone to do something because you wanted that something very hard.
Cause the same whole soup would be spilled in the process anyway.

[slender briar]

when i put up my shield it just blocks normally without playing the parry anim or doing anything besides just blocking, then sometimes after using other items i get put into a weird state where i can't attack but get autoparry

anyone knows what that might be and how to fix it?

[fallow surge]

pls figure out how to reproduce it

[slender briar]

trying my damndest right now but i'm unsure if it's even the same issue instead of just 2 separate ones

but the autoparry thing gets fixed by getting the shield out of my offhand and back

[fallow surge]

It is a logic error in a class that handles shields and weapons, I just need a way to reproduce the bug to figure out how to fix it

[gaunt stream]

I don't know if it has been reported already, but Combat Overhaul turns the graphic of shields attached to sailboats generic

[wary swift]

I believe attaching sailboats to shields is from a different mod?

[gaunt stream]

no, vanilla feature

https://www.vintagestory.at/forums/topic/16123-v1210-pre1-story-chapter-2-redux/

[gaunt stream]

left picture is unmodded VS, right one has only Combat Overhaul and the Overhaul Lib

[wary swift]

Ah, looking at it now, it got into the game in 21, was a modded feature before that.

[fallow surge]

...

no, fuck this, I don't wanna rewrite another hunk of vanilla code that is hardcoded to use specific class in specific way, and you cant replace it

[gaunt stream]

uh, you mean the sailboat thing or Kavi issue?

[fallow surge]

May be it is not hardcoded, I will need to look into it

[fallow surge]

yeah, it seems to be not hardcoded, and I can implement the interface... Though I thought it already was implemented

[slender briar]

i got it to happen but it seems to me that the reason it occured was due to a lag spike

https://medal.tv/ru/games/vintage-story/clips/lX8TXgTaEwMFlRZP4?invite=cr-MSxBZ3UsNzA2MjIyNTA&v=15

[fallow surge]

Is it the latest version of the overhaul lib?

[slender briar]

i installed it same day as co which is 3 days ago

[fallow surge]

Ok, will look into this bug

[slender briar]

i'll clip it if it happens again

[slender briar]

co is 0.14.1 and lib is 1.19.6

[fallow surge]

can it be also related to freezes?

lag spikes

[slender briar]

couldn't tell but as you see in the clip they do happen when the glitch occurs, or maybe it's the other way around and the glitch occuring is the reason it spikes

[fallow surge]

nope, spikes are not caused by it, I'm pretty sure

[slender briar]

i only remember it happening when i pulled out my mace when jumped by drifters suddenly while doing smthn else

[fallow surge]

But I can see how lag spike can cause the glitch

[slender briar]

okay then

but what about the parry anim not happening, is that separate?

[fallow surge]

CO weapons are animation driven, when lag spike happens, animation can end without firing events that would've stoped parry frames and reset shield state to block or idle

[slender briar]

i mean like when i just press rmb without spikes

it doesn't play the parry anim just block

[fallow surge]

there is no "parry" anim per se, parry happens on block animation, and then animation stops and holds at last frame

[fallow surge]

wdym by that?

[slender briar]

in the short guide vid in the taking damage part when the guy pulls up the shield a short anim of swinging the shield to side plays i just assumed that was the parry

[fallow surge]

I replaced swinging animation with just rising, parry still happens

[slender briar]

ah

okay thanks then

[split verge]

What if chainmail was harder to make what if you had to string it into a tube and into a wire then rap it around a dowel and then clip it with shears and then link it together and then rivet each link? Could make gainmail to be harder to make = balance out the other mid layer armors.

[fallow surge]

If my assumption about what was causing this issue is correct, latest lib version should solve it

[primal prairie]

Lowkey daggers would be cool
Really high armor piercing but low-ish damage
Or like ignoring the top layer of armor so the armor below it are the only ones that are used in the damage calculation
Could be a two-handed weapon cus you aren't getting through chainmail with one hand

[fallow surge]

Two-handed, high-damage, very-high armor piercing, slow, almost no reach - yeah, this can work

[primal prairie]

https://tenor.com/view/yippee-happy-celebration-joy-confetti-gif-25557730

[lyric marsh]

daggers are a twohanded weapon?

[slender briar]

I think it's meant like a special attack to fuck up armor

[lyric marsh]

also high damage, high armor piercing sounds like they would replace shortswords

[fallow surge]

Free offhand for grappling

[lyric marsh]

can you make that work?

[slender briar]

I'd love to see glaives but i imagine they would need something special to make them not just shittier poleaxes

[lilac fulcrum]

is there a config option to hide these values in the tooltips? ideally all i need to know is "vulnerable to <type>"

[placid tartan]

You can't get through chainmail with a rondal with any hand.

They were meant to go for non-chainmail gaps in armor, slid under joint plates

[primal prairie]

If you use your body weight you can press through the links, or even bust one or two and penetrated

With GREAT effort

[placid tartan]

Yes, but just like the above, it was in the grounded grapple

It's easier to simply break someone's bones through chain than stab them

[primal prairie]

Yeah true

[primal prairie]

You could have it be one or two handed and the one hand has more range (and maybe a shield like parry if it's in the off hand) and the two hand has the armor pen

[primal prairie]

It's also easier to poke someone in the face with a knife too

[placid tartan]

Actually this is wrong. At best you'd slip beneath the mail just like plate. It seems all the accounts of it breaking chain were modern butted mail

Which is far weaker

[primal prairie]

Fair enough

Daggers are still the penultimate anti-knight weapon

Aside from high power firearms

[placid tartan]

This would also be incorrect. The poleaxe, massed polearms, and the bec de Corbin would take this role.

[primal prairie]

Have you seen someone in full gear get hit full force by a poleaxe?

It'll knock the shit outta you (pardon my French) but it's to get them on the ground to stab them with a dagger

[placid tartan]

Very few people have, as all contact sports do not allow you to actually try and murder someone even in armor.

A hit to the head with a polearm even with period plate can still cause permanent damage or be fatal.

[primal prairie]

And getting stabbed in the face is guaranteed fatal

Like just saying

[placid tartan]

It's not really a matter of realism for the game.

If knives serve as the anti armor part of it, you'd need to consider how they function carefully

[primal prairie]

Having the shortest range and the highest pen seems decent to me, itll make it easier for people in full plate to kill each other, and if someone is NOT in full plate it won't give them the ability to kill someone outside of the other person's range

Plate still remains a threat unless you can ignore hits as well

[lyric marsh]

honestly i think dagger becomes the ultimate pvp weapon

[placid tartan]

I don't.

[primal prairie]

Well guns would be the ultimate PVP weapon

[lyric marsh]

how do you beat a guy straight running at you and knifing you

[placid tartan]

I think they end up kind of useless

[lyric marsh]

you gotta outdps him

[primal prairie]

With a longer ranged weapon

[placid tartan]

I generally think they're a bad addition to any server that was mass combat

[split verge]

the ultimate pvp weapon is to have 10 muskets on your hotbar

[placid tartan]

Yeah it just turns into ww1

Which kills the whole knight fantasy

[primal prairie]

Like a poleaxe, halberd, great sword, gun, longsword, short sword, saber, arming sword, spear

[lyric marsh]

co weapons don't have knockback for pvp do they?

[primal prairie]

They do

[lyric marsh]

and say if you have a pike getting past its effective range is an instant win

[primal prairie]

I don't know how much but it seems to be a lot

[placid tartan]

Really it's up to maltez but I suspect daggers won't be able to do much of value without being severely overturned since the actual benefits of them do not exist (size, concealable, ease of production)

They'll either be lightsaber daggers or kind of useless

[split verge]

imo itd be cool if they had their own holster and you could use them offhand

so you could like hotswap to it

[primal prairie]

Yeah like a parrying dagger

[placid tartan]

I don't actually know the value of a parrying dagger since they're very different then anything meant for armor

[primal prairie]

Doesnt have to be two different types

Could have a generic dagger that "does both"

High armor pen if used in it's own, high parry value if used in offhand

[placid tartan]

My real concern is if it ends up doing to combat what guns did, and if it's in base armory I'd need to disable it with a patch opposed to an individual mod

6 dudes with no armor and cheaper daggers swarming and respawning on armored opponents

You'd probably need to make the armor penetration a do after like healing with poultice. Or actually add grappling which would be a whole nother issue. If it's not, in a game where you respawn there's now very little reason to wear armor when there's roaving gangs of naked seraphs.

[primal prairie]

People take a lot of damage and having to get withing kissing distance to do any damage is a severe disadvantage

[placid tartan]

Not really in game or in real life. Distance collapses quickly in both. Poleaxes in real life are often blunt specifically because the axe head is designed to assist in the grapple rather that punch through mail like the warhammers spike

if you only expect one dude in a one on one, sure

CO weapons currently stop pvp damage when hitting more than one opponent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJ6tqvVhcs

This would be a good resource

Being able to halfsword would be cool though

[hazy briar]

iirc halfswording wasn't that common in battle, mostly in duels

[placid tartan]

It was most common (still rare) durring the hundreds years war when there were knights fighting on foot

really any time you were in the grapple or finish it would be used as an option.

Common soldiers would probably just mob you to death with polearms if you hit the ground in full or half plate

[hazy briar]

most times knights fighting on foot would use a polearm of some kind as a primary weapon and a longsword as a secondary.

[placid tartan]

Yeah

Once you leave the bind, you'd draw your longsword

[hazy briar]

also, in battle actually killing an enemy who's wealthy enough to wear full plate would be a bad decision. it was generally encouraged to capture wealthy and high ranking enemy soldiers

[hazy briar]

wdym bind.

in this context

[placid tartan]

A range distance between fighters

Not a sword bind.

[hazy briar]

iirc William Marshall got called out by his liege because he kept beating enemy knights and not capturing them

(this was when he was a young knight, not marshall of england)

[hazy briar]

it's still pretty easy to use a poll ax of some variety or spear in closer quarters. No more difficult than a longsword.

Longsword was there more if you lost your polearm or it got broken

Half swording was more common in duels I believe.

[placid tartan]

I believe there are five ranges.
Out of measure (no contact between weapons)
Long Measure
Bind or Middle measure (Weapons can contact)
Close measure (Halfswording, pommel strikes, entering the grapple)
then the grapple itself

[placid tartan]

Yes, very

It was a skill to train in case its needed, not really a first option

[hazy briar]

yeah, if you were in a thick battle where the lines were completely pressed together you'd probably halfsword

grapple you'd be too close to even use a longsword, you'd probably just try wrestle the enemy to the ground or try to draw your dagger

[placid tartan]

I think it would be neat to have passive warding based on your weapon position using a basic four guards

rather than just an active parry

but that is a sizable amount of animation work so i doubt maltiez would be interested

[hazy briar]

yeah, i don't think it's that necessary either

[spare current]

ive just seen what everyone said about daggers and swords

the simple solution is to make swords faster tbqh

in real life swords beat daggers as long as you aren't so close that you're grappling/half-swording

[wet niche]

longsword is already ridiculously fast if you're blackguard tho

[spare current]

maybe I'm wrong but i mean the windup for attacks, the cooldown for attacks might be short but its the windup animation thats rly important

idk though just a thought

i wonder if the rapier is in co:a

[hollow pasture]

Not true for the most part, even Dequitem did a whole video on this recently

[hollow pasture]

Not necessarily true, longswords, especially ones with a narrower tip and diamond cross section, provide MUCH more leverage especially when couched close to the body in half sword. Pollaxes are also very nice for doing anything similar too

[primal prairie]

dequitum mention

[hollow pasture]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1201373800189673482/1401083601797513378/videoplayback-ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif

[primal prairie]

waow

[spare current]

i kinda dont like dequitum

how should i say this

hes kind of a fool?

https://youtu.be/JY0E7CCslQc?si=ZX010Dl40sSb80ze

his rankings:

10 the mace
9 the twohanded morningstar
8 the spear
7 the war hammer
6 the war axe
5 the roundel dagger
4 the falchion
3 the poleaxe
2 the longsword
1 my personal favorite (it was longsword but in half-sword)

[hollow pasture]

Because he does stupid stuff or because you don't trust his judgement?

[spare current]

both

he had someone hit him in the head with a warhammer or polehammer

in order to prove that erm ackshually warhammers werent that effective against plate armor

[spare current]

btw if you cant tell these ratings are incredibly foolish

[hollow pasture]

1. Do you do Harnisfechten in any fashion?
2. Have you referred to any historical sources?

[spare current]

1. no, but people who DO perform harnisfechten (buhurt fighters) specifically restrict weapons like warhammers because of their potential to injure or kill. also, do you?
2. has dequitem referred to historical sources? no, he made the video based on "my years of experience in duels with a wide variety of medieval weapons under the most realistic conditions possible, "

let me see what sources i can find tho

ok it would appear that historical treatises on the application of warhammers etc are scarce

[hollow pasture]

1. Yes, weapons in sports like Buhurt have weight restrictions and if you have any sense then you don't use real weight weapons in Harnisfechten, but even their "bladed" one handed weapons have weight restrictions. Lightening your blunt impacts is the same as using a dull sword, effectively rendering it non-lethal.
2. That video specifically had multiple response videos from other historical content creators that discussed and correlated much of what he said. Scholagladiatoria was chief among them that looked back upon a distinct lack of blunt sidearms carried by most knights with their primary weapon having a blunt head.

Also, you are correct. Scholagladiatoria even speaks about the lack of manuscripts when it comes to blunt weapons, but he mainly focuses on the lack of blunt weapons depicted in later medieval art

[spare current]

idk about any response videos
in terms of blunt weapons depicted in art though, you're forgetting something very important

art is art

it's embellished and whatever looks good is what's going on the tapestry or etc

especially considering that knights were the exalted warrior class of medieval europe

therefore i do not believe a lack of artistically depicted blunt weapons such as morningstar and warhammer in art to be conclusive evidence that they were not wielded effectively by and against knights

[wet niche]

the bec de corbin is devastating

[spare current]

and of course like you said, regarding buhurt, blunt weapons are necessarily lightened because they understand what a heavy hunk of metal on the end of a stick will do to the person inside a suit of armor

a good whack to the sallet will rattle you, at its worst it might concuss you or more

[hollow pasture]

Good whacks which are difficult to land solid hits with due to people moving and oftentimes glancing off more than anything

[spare current]

while i agree that something like a longsword is definitely GOOD against an armored foe, i wouldn't go so far as to give it second and first place beating out almost all other contemporaries

[spare current]

this is why they invented hammers with pointed faces, yes

*pronged

[placid tartan]

I sort of get a vibe

[spare current]

but yeah

i respect dequitum as like

an actor and choreographer and whatnot

his fights are cool and i do respect the attempt to show people what combat might really have looked like

[placid tartan]

These seem to be correct.

[placid tartan]

Was that the one i posted earlier?

[hollow pasture]

But which still require large arcs and motions that are easy to parry and against hardened steel do little more than glance off

[hollow pasture]

I believe it was. He was consistently able to punch through maille with a longsword in halfsword couched low against his body

[spare current]

also one note

im surprised the estoc is never mentioned

[hollow pasture]

The sword he uses in the video that Conact just pinged me in is essentially an Estoc

[spare current]

i guess he just hasnt used it (for good reason)

ah well fair enough

[placid tartan]

How much of it did you watch

he showed it struggling againt chain when layered properly

[spare current]

to an extent i think you're underestimating the upsides and overestimating the downsides

[hollow pasture]

I've watched through all of it, and he struggled pretty hard to punch through it in halfsword from above and had much more success from below

[spare current]

i dont rly have any more opinions

on all this

dequitum is definitely still a huge idiot for having someone hit him in the head with a blunt weapon

[placid tartan]

?? no the section when going from above where the rondal failed to get more than a cm or two through the correct type of chain

[spare current]

i find it hard to respect someone who has little respect for themselves

especially their health

[hollow pasture]

That is the type of chain that would only be around your neck as it's too stiff and heavy to be used elsewhere, which he fared better against with the longsword

[placid tartan]

yeah there were two kinds it strugged on. the underarm and the neck

[hollow pasture]

Btw I've been talking about the longsword this whole time, I don't believe I mentioned his rondel

[placid tartan]

The conversation topic at hand which lead to this was daggers. Im aware of how effective halfswording is.

The comment you replied to was also about the rondal

[hollow pasture]

This was the second attempt and the third fared the same iwth his sword

[hollow pasture]

I see why we seemed to conflict on what we saw in the video then 🤣

[placid tartan]

Yeah i was curious as to why you said it wasnt used to go beneath plate joints

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, I might have a comprehension problem apparently 🤣

[placid tartan]

Its fine. I was curious because i have hema experience but limited to when i was in college

[hollow pasture]

Admittedly, I've never had the chance to punch holes through maille with sharps, but that's awesome!

Either way, tying this back into CO: It would be awesome if the low attack did thrusting damage like the Halberd

[placid tartan]

Yeah. I would really like it if more weapons had directionals

but its also the most annoying thing for maltiez to do

[lyric marsh]

no, we don't need directions for more weapons

[fallow surge]

I wish ppl were more uniform, and dont tell me to do directly opposite stuff at the same time

[lyric marsh]

at the end of the day you call the shots

i think the lack of directions on many weapons IS what sets them apart

and eases people into co

i myself primarily use directionless weapons despite being perfectly proficient with directional attacks

[fallow surge]

I want both options to be present

[gentle bane]

How about making it so that proficiencies don't give you +30% attack speed but instead unlock directional attacks

[lyric marsh]

my thoughts are to give proficiencies as unique animations, which are faster and tactically superior, but that's obviously a ton of work

as well as a ton of work for co adjacent mods

[placid tartan]

Almost every weapon type could have side sweeps and an overhead. I think certain weapons lacking them either makes them directly better than others or a little boring.

[lyric marsh]

another thing to consider is the disparity of co and armory

how they are now is best

[placid tartan]

I'm not the biggest fan of how the attacks are chosen, since moving to direction input keys rather than mouse it feels a lot better

[lyric marsh]

co by itself is just the improved combat system, armory is for those who want extra complexity

[placid tartan]

Yeah I don't think anything in CO needs the directionals.

[lyric marsh]

so falx, spear, shortsword, club should always stay untouched

[placid tartan]

If all of armory had directionals, and the stuff in CO inhereted directionals from armory when installed together, I wouldn't mind that

[lyric marsh]

that turns them into different experiences

armory is an addon

[placid tartan]

The alternative is keeping armory weapons that exist in base game without directionals, of which rarely ever get used due to this

There's basically no reason to ever use a short sword

[lyric marsh]

falx, spears and clubs are insane

idk why they wouldn't be used

[placid tartan]

If by club you mean the polehammer

[lyric marsh]

all clubs are good

cheap, long, versatile

[placid tartan]

(the iron ones look a little silly compared to the mace counterparts)

[gentle bane]

Spears/pikes now have multihit so they are better that great sword if you ignore damage type and block/parry

[placid tartan]

In pvp?

I thought all weapons were limited to a 1 target hit on players

[gentle bane]

Idk how about pvp

[lyric marsh]

by multihit he probably means multiple targets

[placid tartan]

Yeah ik

[lyric marsh]

that's one of the most meaningful improvements of co

[gentle bane]

He knows

[lyric marsh]

i didn't know pvp had restrictions on that

[placid tartan]

There's no real reason to use much besides the poleaxe or polehammer in pve

All drifter types are weak to blunt

[lyric marsh]

you could say the same for falx

extra tier, longest attack window

[placid tartan]

Not really.

[lyric marsh]

good at anything, except lacking a defensive option

[placid tartan]

The long axe are okay as well. They kill in about the same time frame as the polehammer just due to their massive damage even on splithead

[lyric marsh]

longaxe is indeed nuts now

[placid tartan]

And when you're fighting like, 20+ enemies at once, you want the reach and damage

I'll use longaxe on blackguard for the 9.5 damage

[fallow surge]

With the new code for weapon stances that you can select - yeah, I can do it, but this is a ton of animation work

[lyric marsh]

that is what i meant

[fallow surge]

If I had a dedicated animator, there would've been a lot more stuff

[lyric marsh]

isn't the co reanimated guy helping now?

[fallow surge]

no...

They said they wont be able to for a few weeks, and we haven't agreed on anything

If I rememeber correctly

[placid tartan]

My life for hooking and grappling

[lyric marsh]

grappling in a game with no ragdolls?

[placid tartan]

Im curious how much room vintage story has for procedural's

[lyric marsh]

i wouldn't hold out for it

[shy agate]

holy shit

that bellhell drifter got hands...

[hazy briar]

bellhead shivers are evil

[shy agate]

my guy just smacked my ass to near zero while in steel chain...

i'm out outt outtt

[dusk nacelle]

Bullhead shivers do primarily blunt damage iirc, so wear a gambeson or leather armor( really anything in the skin layer)

[hazy briar]

do you have padding as well

[lyric marsh]

tier and damage are really high, you wanna wear skin and plate

chain doesn't add any blunt

[shy agate]

yeah but I paniced and took way too much damage then I should had

[gentle bane]

it looks like there is no polearms proficiency trait yet in game it's sort of implied that it exists

[mighty nacelle]

What is a polearm but not a spear? Halbard?

[spare current]

yes, or poleaxe

[spare current]

clubs are honestly borderline op

compared to maces

so cheap

[fallow surge]

works as any other proficiency stat, so you can add it yourself

[scenic arrow]

Whoever comissioned the revolver arquebus

I love him

I love using that weapon

Omg

[scenic arrow]

May his pillow always be cold on both sides

That gun is so satisfying to use

[lyric marsh]

indeed

and it doesn't even misfire

best endgame option for general combat

[hardy wren]

That is fine u don't have glockmaker

Cuz then the pump action shotgun is simply really good

[gaunt stream]

How are you actually supposed to defeat the Immobilized?

I only managed to take it down after it flung me onto a ledge out of its range

[lyric marsh]

it's a bit bullshit to learn but once you do it's basically a non threat

the fight is terrible at communicating everything

basically when he slams the ground jump, when he throws rocks hide behind a pillar

[gaunt stream]

bullshit to learn? It throws rocks, rocks fall, more rocks, it flings you around the arena, if you are too close, if you are too far, spawns a billion zillion locust

in melee it doesnt take any damage, even if aimed directly at the eye

[lyric marsh]

then you aren't really hitting the eye

people have complained about that already, i have tested again and it's perfectly fine

malt has his own vids of killing eidolon with different setups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCPIJUXRXD4

[spare current]

its just generally annoying lmao

imma be honest

its not about whether its possible

its about how the fight interacts with the game and the stakes involved

nothing in the game prepares you for this

and if you die you could be sent to a faraway spawn or end up in a deathloop

considering the pacing of the fight

the arena is fucking miniscule and visibility is terrible

in general: i hate the eidolon fight and think it's shitty game design

[gentle bane]

imo best option would be to make it optional

[fallow surge]

Changes that CO adds make it better or worse?

[placid tartan]

We are doing the boss tomorrow, but we are very far along.

If it is annoying in steel age I will let you know

[split verge]

could codpieces be added to CO as unique leg armor item that replaced cuisses?

it could deplete the enemy's moral courage

[scenic arrow]

Add two sizes, normal and large

Large needs two bards

Bars*

Has even stronger effects

[spare current]

worse arguably since you cant just javelin spam

theres no cheesing for anyone who doesnt want a tough fight

i went into creative mode and hit the eidolon until it died

[fallow surge]

cheesing is not intended

[spare current]

yeah i know

[fallow surge]

Then you probably need to direct this to Tyron

[spare current]

\shrug

ive not fought the eidolon in vanilla

i just dont fw the eidolon's existence

[fallow surge]

Ok, so I should ignore this feedback, cause it is unrelated to CO, I guess

[willow hemlock]

IMO it doesn't make it better or worse, just different

the fight is a slog by no fault of the mod itself

[lyric marsh]

way worse there

only way it's easier in vanilla is that you can hit it anywhere to damage it

vanilla has two options, shield and hold m1 with falx or stand behind pillars and chuck spears

[kind epoch]

Don't know how anyone could struggle with eidolon in vanilla unless you were a naked clockmaker and fought it with your eyes closed. The thing cant move you have complete control over the fight by ducking behind the pillars & just hitting it once or twice and then backing off when it goes for the slam attack.

[lyric marsh]

damage, dogshit hitboxes, vanilla armor tier system

once you know it's easy, but the first experience is one of the worst bosses of all time

0/10 communication

[turbid pilot]

Question, apart from going back to a previous version is it possible to turn off the fairly recent traits for damage tier buffs and debuffs?.

Seeing as there is no config option for it I would guess not but maybe there is a roundabout way to do it so just checking.

[fallow surge]

If there is nothing wrong with them, why turn them off?

[turbid pilot]

That is a matter of opinion if there is something wrong with them honestly.

Our group doesn't rly like the bad feeling from being discouraged from using certain weapons

[fallow surge]

You have not reported if something wrong, so its only fair to assume that there is nothing wrong

[lyric marsh]

make your own patch mod with your own balancing

[turbid pilot]

There is no issue to rapport. it was a question of preference. But I will take this answer as a no there is no other way to avoid it then going back mod versions

[turbid pilot]

I am not asking for anything to be included. I simply lack all the information and was requesting more from a larger group of people with more complete knowledge.

[fallow surge]

They mean, make a mod that json patches these traits

Like servers do balance mods

[lyric marsh]

json patching to fit your needs is a power many ignore

[amber haven]

hey im trying to add custom animations here, but when i install all of these the mod itself doesnt work, no new items, no blocking, no spear edits and ctrl + l doesnt work. how do i fix this?

do i need overhaul lib dev version?

i will try that

[fallow surge]

Look into logs

[turbid pilot]

I unfortunately do not know coding. So I cannot do that myself.

[fallow surge]

No coding required

just simple json patches

[lyric marsh]

json patches are as easy as it gets

you find a value, you direct your patch to it and modify as you like

[wary swift]

I'd say data bashing like this is a simple form of scripting, but yeah, it's pretty easy to do, if you're only changing 1-2 things.

[willow hemlock]

You can find info on how to do json patches in the wiki

You could also download a pre-made patch by a random server and edit it from there

[wary swift]

I'm assuming you want the traits that give +- tier to specific weapons removed from classes?

[turbid pilot]

The wiki page for it seems like coding to me. I'll dive into it cause if it rly is that easy it is worth a try but I have 0 prior knowledge of anything resembling this

thx for the suggestion at least

[wary swift]

There is a mod called "no CO negative traits".
You can take it and see how it's made, as it's pointing at the exact same places as you'd point your patch.

[amber haven]

uh sorry where are the logs located at?

im quite new

[wary swift]

Assuming I'm correct in my assessment.

[wary swift]

Vintagestorydata/Logs.

[amber haven]

ok thanks

[wary swift]

You can press "open logs folder" when loading, too.

[turbid pilot]

Yea basically

[fallow surge]

To damage types split to melee and ranged

[wary swift]

Then, yeah, get that mod, see how it's done.
It may not be up to date with these trait changes, but you'd be basically replacing "remove A" with "Remove B".

If you encounter issues, there's #mod-development , people are quite helpful there.

[turbid pilot]

I'll look into it, it might be easy but it might be easy for people who know more then absolute nothing

[amber haven]

im not really sure what causes it

normal combat overhaul works fine for me btw

[fallow surge]

You can ask in https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/351624415039193098 or may be someone here will help. Though I recommend starting with modding tutorial on wiki

[turbid pilot]

Alright, thx for the suggestion. will be moving any further questions out of this thread cause it is no longer strictly CO related and I don't want to clutter up the the place

[wary swift]

I dove quite deep into bashing mods together to work without any tutorials, just looking at how all the mods were set up.
I do have programming experience, though, that is, I guess, some "prior knowledge".

[turbid pilot]

Oh one more thing tho, would it be possible to add damage types to certain weapons with this as well? I would find it kinda neat if my swords would do piercing damage with the stab animation but I have no clue if that is within the scope of a JSON patch

[fallow surge]

It is

[turbid pilot]

Awesome, alright have a nice whatever time it is in time zone you are in

[lyric marsh]

noticed you have an ai disclosure on your page now

very well put

[fallow surge]

Ppl that have problems with me and AI probably lack reading comprehension skill anyway, so I dont think it will change anything.

[lyric marsh]

yeah that's what i was about to say

but this informs more literate people

[turbid pecan]

Is it possible to disable the vanilla body and leg armor so that only the armor parts created by Armory are used? ^^

[wary swift]

If you mean fully assembled parts vs armour split into all the different ones - yeah, you can disable the recipes.

Would still be able to find some, like loot armour in one place and from shops, but I'd advise to not "delete item from existence".

[turbid pecan]

Yes, exactly that

[wary swift]

Would need a patch to disable them, though.

[turbid pecan]

Got it ^^ quick question: do I need to make a patch to disable those recipes, or can this be done via the config? And if a patch is required anyway, would it also be possible to patch the vanilla armor out of the loot/trader tables (so it doesn’t show up in loot/trader)?

[lyric marsh]

also json

[placid tartan]

@fallow surge What changes if any does CO make to the fight?

it was cool to see it spawn in the center of an ocean. no clue if thats normal

[lyric marsh]

The Fight

[misty geyser]

does anyone have a spreadsheet for all enemies and their protection levels? i know about the spreadsheet on the website for CO but that one doesn't tell me how much blunt protection a bear has for example

[placid tartan]

What about the fight changed?

[split verge]

i feel like lamellae is kinda op

the scale is just straight up worse

the lamellae gives blunt res whereqs the scale does not

despite lamellae costing less

[scenic arrow]

Scale has weaker debuffs im pretty sure, and a fairly easy to make leather jerkin counteracts the blunt, you can also make iron and steel scale

[hollow pasture]

You can wear whatever blunt protection you want under scale, which adds to a higher value than lamellar offers

[lyric marsh]

Changes to The Fight:

• Value was Changed
• Hitbox

[fallow surge]

health halved, new hitbox with weak spots and armor, greatly reduced knockback from slam

[lyric marsh]

and the Other Fight is fixed simply by the presence of good ranged options

[fallow surge]

I haven't touched erel fight

[lyric marsh]

don't need to

[placid tartan]

Then there's no issues with the fight CO can fix.

[lyric marsh]

out of scope for the mod

fundamental changes aren't easy

[fallow surge]

Ok, hope now plate armor recipes will be more bareable

[lyric marsh]

new recipes?

didn't see anything wrong with the current ones

[fallow surge]

7 ingot smithing recipe?

Its not that bad, but still a bit too big

[gentle bane]

bash attack doesn't have the terrain colision thingie

[daring ledge]

I feel like the falx range isnt right, like i have to be making out with an enemy for my hit to connect. and, i kinda enjoyed vanilla blocking, where I could crouch to block and still attack. any way I can have all the new weapons without the combat changes?

[lyric marsh]

combat rework

it's not co but it's vanilla combat with a bunch of new weapons

[daring ledge]

oh and i like the damage models, with the different body parts

[lyric marsh]

then you gotta use co

this feels like a kneejerk reaction

learn co for a bit

falx is very good because it has an extra tier and a very long attack window

you can easily cleave several enemies or start an attack and run in and still have it connect

if you want longer try a sabre

or if you want longEST there's the pike

[fallow surge]

Yeah, I know, thanks for reporting, will fix eventually

[gentle bane]

don't fix it, it's very cool to do like a lil attack in a corridor

[lyric marsh]

also the reason it's short is because the collider is accurate to the visual

vanilla simply doesn't have any colliders

it's all fake

here what you see is what you get

[gaunt stream]

does CO change the behaviour of locust nests?

[fallow surge]

no

[gentle bane]

would it be possible to make it so locking direction remember the last direaction that was on weapon after swapping between different items on hotbar?

[fallow surge]

May be

Anyone else has the same issue?

[lyric marsh]

all fine here

also, new chestplate costs 8 ingots

didn't you say 7 was too much?

[fallow surge]

7 for a smithing recipes, in terms of how many voxels you need to move in one recipe

[scenic arrow]

40-1 hour of smithing no joke(ok, maybe like 20 mins i havent counted)

[spare current]

whats erel?

[lyric marsh]

play story

[spare current]

ok

[thin roost]

hey maltiez, i noticed something when testing guns and crossbows from airships,
when riding an elk in vanilla and shooting it with a bow from the rider position, it takes no friendly fire, neither do the airships.
However, in CO the elk DOES take damage from the rider's shots, and the airships take the hit from bows, guns and crossbows when shot from one of the seats.

could it be that CO turns this mount-friendly fire protection off or is simply excluded? or could it be that it is a config?

[fallow surge]

Hm, I thought there was a check for that...

[fallow surge]

You can add accurate colliders, so then you just will have to not aim at the ship to not hit it

[fallow surge]

Ah, I added such check in vanilla repo, but decided against it for CO, cause there is no issue with player being inside huge cuboid of its mount, cause of accurate colliders

[placid ferry]

hi guys a quick question what does the angle at which i hold my spear change? like if its closer to the tip it has more damage and if its further its less damage but longer reach?

[lyric marsh]

shorter range means easier to hit targets close to you

that's it

[placid ferry]

oh okay

[thin roost]

@upper axle went to learn how to do harmony patches to change it lol

now we can no longer accidentally 1 hit our own elk when we're riding it with CO installed.

accurate airship hitboxes are something we're still interested in once we focus on combat

[fallow surge]

I could've just added a config option, but ok

[thin roost]

that'd be nice

keep up the good work

[upper axle]

This also gave me the chance to brush up on Harmony

[fallow surge]

Is this a thing? Should not be possible afaik

Cause there is literary a list of entities you already hit, and you can't hit them again with same attack...

Also there are no "damage ticks"...

[short crater]

Is there any penalty for using parry? I mean, it doesn't have cooldown

[fallow surge]

There should be a cooldown though

Hm, it does not work it seems...

Oh, I forgot to increase it to meaningful numbers on weapons, will fix

[short crater]

Oh ty, do you know when will you update it?

[fallow surge]

In a couple of minutes

[short crater]

Awesome mods btw

[short crater]

Oh, imma wait to play it updated then

[fallow surge]

Released, Armory 1.9.5

[short crater]

33 secs ago, imma be the first one trying it fr

ty

[placid tartan]

This could be checked pretty easily with debug but i can check later

[fallow surge]

I cant reproduce it

[placid tartan]

Ive never seen it happen either.

[gentle bane]

That's how it's is chivalry/mordhau or smth, I think what happened here is that they haven't played with it and assumed that's how it is

That thing with damage tiers now seems like more acceptable scenario by many with how only damage tiers differ between tiers

[fallow surge]

wdym?

what thing? Class traits?

[lyric marsh]

so people are just making shit up now

[gentle bane]

Higher damage tiers dealing more damage

[lyric marsh]

i don't think any other mod has people completely prejudiced like this

general chat is a hivemind

[gentle bane]

Maybe rename it to armor penetration or add in game handbook page about it

[fallow surge]

Higher damage tiers dont deal more damage, you deal less damage if you dont have high enough damage tier

[fallow surge]

damage tier is vanilla term, thats why I used it

[gentle bane]

Ppls reasoning is that higher tier weapons have to somehow deal more damage

[placid tartan]

They tend to, don't they?

There's damage tier and damage right next to it

Also, if someone already happens to know. What is the time difference between malifactor and commoner for slings firerate?

[lyric marsh]

i really think this is due to the lack of anything in handbook

in both vanilla and co

there's just zero info about combat

[gentle bane]

Isn't it like two handed deal 8 and one handed 4?

[lyric marsh]

hybrids do 6

[placid tartan]

I thought the greatsword dealt 7.5?

Or was I confused on the way the numbers were displayed?

And the poleaxe 6-8 damage depending on type of attack

With the long axe dealing 8.5

At least at steel

[lyric marsh]

only three now

4,6,8

it was simplified

[placid tartan]

Oh, huh.

I don't think I like that as much. It sort of puts the longaxe without a niche, but the poleaxe already kind of did that to it.

[lyric marsh]

longaxe niche is directionless long range slashing

[placid tartan]

It was that and the highest damage in the game.

[lyric marsh]

technically still that

[placid tartan]

I'll have to go through and change those then. I think simplifying the damage stats is kind of boring on a conceptual level. Long axe dealing the most damage while great sword dealing less but having more utility felt like a good separation.

[lyric marsh]

good for balancing and actually makes a difference

over the fake differences of 0.3 damage increments

same reason negative damage traits got replaced

[placid tartan]

The classes aren't particularly well done, its one of CO's main weaknesses.

[lyric marsh]

i think vanilla classes with co are fantastically balanced

[fallow surge]

be more specific

[lyric marsh]

way better than classmods and vanilla

[placid tartan]

When I play around with them next I'll find something to post as a suggested tweak. It is very late and I am going to bed

[lyric marsh]

goodnight america

the classes are really well done, aside from maybe tailor being somewhat better at crossbows than hunter/glockmaker (but he did need at least something to himself so that'll do)

[fallow surge]

hunter has bows, clockmaker has firearms, so I dont feel like they also both need all buffs to crossbows

[lyric marsh]

it justifies their downsides more so it's fine to keep

[fallow surge]

let tailors have their crossbows, it is the only weapon they have buffs for

[lyric marsh]

the new negative tier traits also give somewhat of a case for commoner

[gentle bane]

In vanilla classes aren't that deep so idk why it's something that co would need to adress

[fallow surge]

CO just changes vanilla combat related traits to its own, there is no goal to fully rework them

[lyric marsh]

well by doing so it actually gives them depth they didn't have originally

an improvement

[slate valve]

This would prevent a lot of headaches, having some basic info in the handbook

[fallow surge]

It will create a lot of headaches with need to keep it updated

[slate valve]

Well, you basically have to "write" part of the handbook every time someone asks a question about the mod here, since there is no other way to get info about the mod, aside from the "CO in 7 minutes" video that was created a long time ago

And a video is much harder to maintain than text

[lyric marsh]

writing a handbook entry is equivalent to making a message here and pinning it, except it's in the game itself and not in 'cord

apparently it's a stereotype now that people don't read the handbook but i'd like to think that's false

the only problem i noticed so far with the damage overhaul (or maybe it was made clearer by it) is that blunt damage becomes obsolete in lategame

the only enemies it makes a difference against is specials, the rarest enemies in the game

otherwise slashing is the supreme damage type

[fallow surge]

This is a problem, I have no idea what can be done with it

[slate valve]

Extra damage if the weapon tier is way above the enemy's defense tier?

[fallow surge]

nope

it defeats the purpose

[lyric marsh]

i would say extra damage against rust, but given they already had their hp softened that's not a good idea

[fallow surge]

May be redesign of the tier range of all enemies

May be just stretch it

[lyric marsh]

a great qol change which sounds doable is appending each entity's defense tiers to its handbook page based on the values in its tooltip

[fallow surge]

I will need to figure out how to do this first, though, and I will probably wait for 1.22, cause there will be some handbook improvements

[hollow pasture]

It's still impossible to hit the same enemy multiple times in those games with that so idk...

[hollow pasture]

This is unfortunately true...

[gentle bane]

Making stuff up bc they lost a fight or smth

✅

[gentle bane]

my new conspiracy theory is that ppl use
https://mods.vintagestory.at/cooperativecombatrr
becasue they assume that CO doesn't overhaul combat by overhauling iframes

idk if it may breake some things as I have no one to test it with

[lyric marsh]

this didn't make any difference on pve to my knowledge

pvp i don't know

[sharp temple]

Casually dropping spoilers on coming changes 😉

[fallow surge]

You can bother pizza for details on that, I worked mostly on tags and recipes this update

[sharp temple]

I know followed the chats with the shematics tag n such ^^

Was mostly meant as a jest

[civic dragon]

well color me an idiot, because I have used that mod and CO together ever since I started modding this game. It doesn't break anything as far as I could tell, I'm assuming the overhauled iframes that CO implements overwrite that mod. going to promptly uninstall it now.

[gentle bane]

have you tried pvp?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302152934249070593/1456746459511656683/ezgif.com-resize.gif

[civic dragon]

have not done any PvP, just PvE with friends on a server. love the Tod Workshop gif though, lol

[gentle bane]

"breaking things" was in regards of pvp

[spare current]

the jezail slug:

https://tenor.com/view/watermelon-watermelon-blast-watermelon-blow-watermelon-blow-up-watermelon-break-out-gif-12770064

[golden hornet]

Is there a guide on how to integrate weapons into this mod?

[fiery nexus]

Sry, is this CO problem with texture...?
This was not the case before installing the mod :с
It's randomly fixing sometimes, but how, idk..

[fallow surge]

I highly doubt it has anything to do with CO

[fallow surge]

Also it is not texture problem, it is problem with your near culling plane being to far away

[golden hornet]

How do I add CO compatibility to my weapon? I used the Temporal Weapon mod as an example, but nothing happens.

[fallow surge]

look into CO weapons

[golden hornet]

Nothing

[fallow surge]

CO weapons work and there is no magic involved, so just do the same.
May be someone else here will be willing to explain it in more detail

[lyric marsh]

go into the co files and see how the weapons work

you do the same

[fallow surge]

Is this indeed due to bad communication from CO part, or CO is complicated, if the latter, what exactly is complicated about it?

[lyric marsh]

they see the armor layers, probably the directional weapons and run away screaming

didn't give me a great first reaction either

press c, 27 slot jumpscare

it gives off the immediate impression of complexity because of that

highly doubt the people shitting on co have played it for more than 10 minutes

[short crater]

Maybe if there were like detailed info in-game, it's not complicated at all but it's lack of info, at least when you start playing with it, however it is better than vanilla system by far (in my opinion)

[lyric marsh]

it makes a lot more sense than vanilla

and is functionally coherent

[spare current]

i dont think its very confusing

just dont expect to understand the entire mod in the first 10 minutes

[slate valve]

If I hadn't watched the "CO in 7 minutes" video I'd probably had dropped the mod

[fervent pulsar]

I have a friend who’s never touched any medieval slasher, we play on my server and he couldn’t understand why he wasn’t hitting enemies with a pike, when he showed me on stream I realized it didn’t click for him that the visual of the weapon in your hand is what should guide how you hit your enemies not the crosshair

I feel like if your mod desc had gifs of what it looks like to hit, miss and hit the ground and cancel your attack looks like people who have never touched games with mechanics like that could understand it easier

[spare current]

anyone know the damage tier values for the 2nd boss?

[fiery nexus]

Oh, sorry then!

[fiery nexus]

Do you know how to fix it...? :(

[sharp temple]

The Problem is: CO requires reading, thinking and actually engaging with the mod.

Skills that are sorely lacking in many players, if they can not grasp the entierty withing 5 minutes of looking at it its to much for them and they start whining.

Yes the Armour System can be overwhelming but if you give it a minute you will realize that 80% of the Slots are kinda redundant as the big armor pieces cover multiple slots. (Maybe offer a config turning off those individual pieces/slots and call it CO light? ^^)

And directional combat imho feels a tad 'meh' when you are unable to consistently set the attack angles you want. I had to switch to the movement based system, which made it a lot besser for me, as otherwise I was just not able to consistently execute an Oberhau or Stich. And only using Twerhau felt ab bit dumb. Then again as you might glean from the jargon I know how to actually handle such weaponry IRL so the mod for me never felt complicated combat wise xD

And yes I am jaded a lot about stuff like that ^^

[slate valve]

A lot of the fundamental info about CO is not explained. Only the fan-made video explains it, and tbh it's a bit buried in the extensive mod page. There is no in-game explanation about how things work

[spare current]

ehh

i never watched the video explanation

i just intuited it and read the handbook

works fine

[sharp temple]

I mean its still "point at enemy and click to attack" then you just have to realize that now swinging through a tree will stop the attack as you hit said tree

Sure you could give more explanation like a handbook guide. But erm did you look at the usual Vintage Story players?

https://tenor.com/view/vintage-story-vintagestory-vintagestory-players-vintage-story-players-vintage-story-handbook-gif-14980773338603606545

[slate valve]

Which handbook pages exactly?

[spare current]

none, you dont need to

rather you can look at armor pieces

[slate valve]

So why did you say you read the handbook

[spare current]

and see "oh its outer layer"

"oh its skin layer"

you have DE pfp? you should be able to read, interpret, and intuit

[slate valve]

Ok, please tell me how a player can learn the shield tier mechanics

[spare current]

tier mechanics? it seems simple enough to me

higher tier means the damage goes through

lower tier attack means its absorbed partially or fully

[sharp temple]

What for?

Shield Tier higher then attack tier? Good will protect otherwise ouch

Same with armor didn't really change much from vanilla

[spare current]

its not hard to intuit these things with basic reasoning

[slate valve]

What happens if tiers are matched?

[spare current]

if tiers are matched i think it absorbs some damage

also

[sharp temple]

Not really important though?

[spare current]

when you put armor on you can use a slider to predict how much damage you will take

at given damage tiers

its right there and a useful visualization

idk man its vintage story

you should be used to experimentation

or just ask people or watch a video

if you really want to use the mod but dont easily understand it

the video is genuinely only 7 minutes and this is a game people spend hundreds of hours on

[sharp temple]

As I initially wrote needs you to "engage with the mod" and thats were apparently most ppl fail as its not all presented in a foolproof bitesized manner

[spare current]

you have a de pfp (a game thats basically a book) and you're in the server for the rimworld mod Combat Extended (notoriously in-depth and complex)

🧐

come on m8

[sharp temple]

That an overhaul to the combat system might need more interaction or thinking about compared to "you now can pick up farmland again without just destroying it" should be clear to anyone with more than 2 braincells to be frank

[slate valve]

It's very important, it's how you learn that the thatch heavy shield can fully block brown bear attacks

[spare current]

i will say though

a proper written guide would be nice

instead of a video guide

some prefer to read

[slate valve]

My point is that the basic info should be accessible in the handbook

A video is harder to maintain than text

[spare current]

the fundamentals of co havent changed in months if not years

[slate valve]

And a few key explanations in-game would help onboarding, which currently is not good

[spare current]

yeah fair enough

[slate valve]

Sice apparently I asked what happens if tiers are matched and the best answer was "I think" and "not really important"

[golden hornet]

Is it possible to somehow increase the attack radius and area without increasing the length of the weapon? It still works a bit crookedly, it hits every other time

So I couldn't make it compatible with the patch.

[lyric marsh]

you can tell the average vs player by seeing the popular mods

that said, co is in top 10 so i have no idea how it's so divisive

[lyric marsh]

make the collider bigger?

[lyric marsh]

my guess it's all due to the slander/gaslighting campaign in the general chat

only way it makes sense

most co users probably aren't even here

[sharp temple]

Yeah theres a few idiots hating on CO just because of who made it...

[golden hornet]

What specific values ​​need to be changed?

[lyric marsh]

and for entirely made up reasons mind you

when i saw the ai "proof" screenshots i instead observed his behavior

and he proved to me with actions he's a good programmer

[golden hornet]

Does anyone know how the MaxReach parameter works? I changed it but nothing.

[lyric marsh]

gotta be the collider array

though not sure how one would eyeball these variables

[gentle bane]

You sort of have nothing in the way of "engaging" with it, you can just play normally without thinking about it, it's still just pointing at enemy holding rmb and seeing stuff die

Stuff just happens

[sharp temple]

I mean you can look at the armor screen and realize theres layers now, or that different weapons have different reaches and attackanimations

But yeah its not complex xD

[lyric marsh]

something hard to explain to most people is that it improves combat no matter the skill level

because you no longer need to have your cursor over the enemy at one arbitrary frame (which doesn't even match the animation well)

[gentle bane]

I don't mean that it's not complex, just that it affects ppl mentally and not game mechanics

[sharp temple]

But that would be considered engaging with the mod?

[lyric marsh]

the thing that annoys me more is the hypocrites

"yeah vanilla combat is trash"

"NOOO CO IS BAD"

but this discussion has been had in this chat more than once, it's pretty pointless at this point

[sharp temple]

As long as the enemies are just walking up to you and taking a swing both are equally boring ^^

CO just has cooler animations while I click them to death...

[golden hornet]

Is it possible to somehow increase or decrease the base attack speed of a weapon?

[lyric marsh]

co's biggest functional improvement currently is multihits

fighting hordes in vanilla makes me wanna die

here you can cleave them

apocalyptic night in vanilla is just holding m1 with a falx for 3 minutes straight

[wary swift]

#1260976245374582886 message

[golden hornet]

Is it possible to change the attack speed of one item in JSON configs?

[wary swift]

Far as I understood, these fields are all supposed to be collected from the json, so I'm gonna say yes.

[golden hornet]

So you can't change your attack speed with items yet? Or have you already learned how?

[wary swift]

If you mean "item" as "not a weapon", then no, because this mod doesn't touch general items or tools.
It only affects the use of weapons, either ones in vanilla, or from mods that make their weapons compatible with it.

If you mean "change attack speed of weapon A, but not weapon B", then I've shown you it's supposedly doable.

I asked it for myself, because I've downloaded a mod that added a rapier, and it felt too sluggish.
However, after I learned that piercing damage is bad, so I'd abandoned that idea, so never even tried it.

[golden hornet]

By the way, I added manipulation speed to potions and gems and it worked.

[wary swift]

That's a vanilla thing, yes.

I don't know if it affects the attack speed of the item or not.

[golden hornet]

Manipulation speed affects the attack speed of all weapons and the reload speed of bows and crossbows. I just tried adding my own potions to the alchemy mod and changing the stats in the can jewelry mod.

[golden hornet]

Only this will work with combat overhaul and player model lib and possibly some other mods

[golden hornet]

There are no mobs yet that are vulnerable to piercing damage but resistant to other types of damage, but if they appear

[golden hornet]

As far as I understand, there is a limit to increasing manipulation speed by +100%. Is it possible to somehow increase it, and what is the lowest possible value?

[civic dragon]

In this 'safe space' of CO seclusion, I'll say that the worst part of the vanilla game to me is the combat by far. It's Minecraft combat with slower attack speeds. CO does literally everything possible other than making an entirely new game to make the game's combat tolerable.

Hearing the devs here say they prefer their combat over Hytale's, mildly concerns me. I hope Maltiez being on the dev team can change the direction there.

[lyric marsh]

he said he's not interested in basically redoing co under creative constraints

[civic dragon]

well that's too bad I guess. at least there's the mod

[lyric marsh]

as much as i would love vanilla combat to be tolerable or even good i understand

plus the format of a mod fits his workflow way more

cause he can push an update any day any time

[civic dragon]

yeah that makes sense. I don't think vanilla combat even needs to be 50% of CO combat, but literally almost anything would improve it. but anyways, rant over

[sharp temple]

Guess its a matter of perspective between hytale and vs combat?

I mean i think both suck 😆

[lyric marsh]

yes they both suck

hytale is flashy and shallow

[civic dragon]

yeah I don't think hytale's combat is something to strive for either, but I feel like at least it's consistent and probably 'feels' better for players

[sharp temple]

Just cuz its flashy imho...

There no real mechanics behind hit

Even the other blockgames is better in comparison with timing strikes and theoretical crithits and jumpattacks

And thats gotta mean something to say other blockgame combat is "good" 😆

[lyric marsh]

even minecraft has better bows than vanilla vs

vanilla bows are toys

if bullseye style bows come to vanilla i'm playing on tops

i can tolerate horrendous melee if the ranged is actually good

[civic dragon]

other way round for me, lol

too much time spent in mordhau and KC:D

[lyric marsh]

obviously i really want both, but ranged is absolutely the bigger disappointment for me

especially after the complete whiplash malt's ranged mods give

toy vs the real thing

[civic dragon]

understandable. I think I played maybe a handful of hours with vanilla ranged so I barely remember it, but it definitely is not good. funny when you get so used to a mod you don't even know what vanilla players deal with

[lyric marsh]

in vanilla i made a longbow, tried it, never used it again

bullseye was eye opening

[sharp temple]

Just throw the arrow...

This random directio. Thing is stupid af

Maltiez aim wobble solution is 100x better

[lyric marsh]

guns and crossbows also have inaccuracy

except it's not comedic like vanilla, it's very subtle

[sharp temple]

But managable...

And not "ima shoot behind meself"

Plate and use a bow its hilarious where the arrow are flying

[lyric marsh]

the laughable spread + pathetic velocity (and thus range) is what makes them feel like a toy

vanilla ranged options:

• spear
• spear but worse

[hollow pasture]

I don't think this is necessarily true given the huge popularity of mods like a culinary artillery+expanded foods

[sharp temple]

So? Did you realize how many ppl are having problems with those because of not reading the instructions?

[hollow pasture]

I mean you can call it "fan-made" though my name is on the author list

[sharp temple]

https://tenor.com/view/vintage-story-vintagestory-vintagestory-players-vintage-story-players-vintage-story-handbook-gif-14980773338603606545

This is not a meme without reason here...

[slate valve]

I wasn't sure of the exact relationship

Although I only see Maltiez as author on the moddb page

[hollow pasture]

I think it only shows the mod uploader on the DB, no? I'm pretty sure it still shows up on mods screen in game. Either way, I didn't have a whole lot to do with it other than a lot of bouncing ideas, and some of the very early model and texture work to make things fit together, but I'm pretty sure it didn't end up working how Maltiez needed it to so he just redid it himself

[slate valve]

Dunno how it works, but there are mods like expanded foods where there are multiple authors

In the moddb page author list

[fallow surge]

Ok, it seems I have quite a lot to read here...

[fallow surge]

If someone wants to make a guide I can put onto modpage, be my guest... Or at least to teach me how to make and upload gifs from videos