Combat Overhaul

[tribal latch]

nothing , flashing it infront of a people that never done it will induce panic in the deepest part of them as they try to solve it and i find that funny.

[fallow surge]

On average player with this trait will receive 30% more damage

[lyric marsh]

what if you wear a helmet though

any helmet

the helmet is the cheapest piece of armor after all

riveted helmet is just 1.25 ingots

riveted helmet on a glockmaker ought to be more protected than any other class wearing the same helmet

[hoary finch]

so can you explain to me why:

• a bear takes 28 flint arrows with a crude bow without any tier +
• and the exact same amout with tier+2 in blunt, slashing and piercing.
  is it because the bear is so much above flint arrows or crude bow?

[lyric marsh]

tooltip shows the creature's defense tiers

do the math

also, it matters where you hit

head takes more, legs take less

for monsters it's contextual

[hoary finch]

i know the hitbox stuff. the tooltip is a nice hint though

[lyric marsh]

starting bows are only good for small game and surface monsters

[hoary finch]

but i expected to see a difference with +2 nonetheless if a bear is damage tier 2

[gentle dock]

arrows do slashing which bears have resistances against so yeah they can tank it

[lyric marsh]

bear is tier 2 in vanilla

or wait

oh right nvm

[hoary finch]

but the exact same amount?

[lyric marsh]

yeah black bears are tier 2

[gentle dock]

you're the one with the game open

[hoary finch]

? ive already tested it and it used the same amount of arrows. it souldnt matter if its resistant to a certain kind of damage

maybe the crude bow is just..excluded?

[lyric marsh]

slashing defense is 5 so you do half damage

use javelins instead

[hoary finch]

does that calculate into the damage tier?

or just reduce damage

[lyric marsh]

crude bow is tier 2, bear is tier 5

[hoary finch]

there it is

[lyric marsh]

the attack is over two tiers lower, so damage is halved

[hoary finch]

+2 doesnt matter with crude bow, got it

[lyric marsh]

what does +2 mean

steel arrows?

[hoary finch]

+2 tier on slashing, blunt and piercing

[gentle dock]

class skill?

[lyric marsh]

that would be tier 4, which is 75% damage

[hoary finch]

i know im probably annoying with this but it seriously is not easy for modders like me to make a working compatibility without some more info

[lyric marsh]

peep damage log, ranged attack logs should be on by default

[gentle dock]

to get tier 4 with the crude bow without better arrows the class needs a +2 tier on slashing for ranged weapons

[hoary finch]

okay so ... tier 2 from crude bow should do less damage than a tier 4 curde bow?

[lyric marsh]

that's how you know it's working

[gentle dock]

yes if the enemy has tier 3 or higher slashing resistance

[lyric marsh]

tier equal or higher - full damage
one below - 75%
two+ below - 50%

[hoary finch]

oha will check this, thats genius lol

[lyric marsh]

it doesn't get more complicated than that

[hoary finch]

except for cude bow apparently has tier 1

[lyric marsh]

oh i don't remember it having tier 1

that explains it

simple bow is better anyway

[hoary finch]

so it just always is 2 tiers below and thus deals the same damage

finally

the math is checking out

final question 😄 so that means with endgame gear every class does the same damage because the damage tier is high enough. is it even possible to make classes in endgame do more damage with combat overhaul?

[lyric marsh]

not always

[hoary finch]

high end enemies i suppose

[lyric marsh]

endgame monsters can have 8 piercing resist for example meanwhile melee weapons go up to like 6 or 7

[gentle dock]

Blackguard can get most of his (steel) slashing weapons to tier 7 which nullifies every enemies resistances

[lyric marsh]

that would need changing weapon stats

[hoary finch]

man this mod really is not a breeze for class mods

its actually not surprising no class mod ever actually tried to make their classes work with it

[lyric marsh]

or you can just give melee tier perks but those would be very strong in earlygame too

[scenic arrow]

Tier eight now with the +1 tier on slashing

[gentle dock]

There used to just be weapon proficiencies but recently a lot more stuff got added like the damage tier upgrades and damage resistances/vulnerabilities.

[lyric marsh]

gloome did

not to say it was balanced well at all

[gentle dock]

yeah on the Falx, but it's kinda useless since no enemy has tier 8 slash res

Falx still goated for DPS

[scenic arrow]

Doesnt greatsword base have tier 7?

Steel one

[gentle dock]

Nah it's tier 6

[scenic arrow]

Oh

[gentle dock]

7 is its damage number

[scenic arrow]

Brain dmg

[hoary finch]

oh so he did it in the code where i couldnt find it. clever

[scenic arrow]

Im way too sleepy rn

[lyric marsh]

gloome used existing class perks

it didn't do anything custom

[fallow surge]

You want to have vanilla +15% melee damage, that will matter only for a one or two enemies where it will reduce number of hits to kill by 1?

[hoary finch]

you mean the usual proficiencies? yeah everyone useses those. these are easy

[lyric marsh]

the tier perks are very new

like a couple weeks old

[hoary finch]

i have 2 classes that should stand out when dealing damage but its kinda hard to realize that with CO (especially in endgame)

[hoary finch]

oh thats why

[gentle dock]

what weapons do they have proficiencies for?

[lyric marsh]

there are weapon TYPES that are only accessible in endgame

[hoary finch]

the ranged dude bows, steady aim and so on. the melee dude parry projectiles, and melee weapons

[lyric marsh]

but they do fit into categories as other earlier weapons

[gentle dock]

ranged guy can take the hunters proficiency with the +1 tier to ranged slashing damage

I need more info for the melee dude though, what weapons specifically does he get bonuses with?

[lyric marsh]

twohanded swords is the most "endgame" prof i would say

[hoary finch]

oh now i get what you mean. i was just about to give everyone every type

[gentle dock]

I guess you can do that, if you want someone to be gigacracked at bows, crossbows and guns

[hoary finch]

they dont seem to multiply each other and 2.1 does the same as 2.0 which is nice

oh shit, do some weapons have 2 damage types?

[fallow surge]

If you just want to get damage values do be higher (and it does not matter if it makes a difference), just use vanilla trait for melee damage, it still works.

[lyric marsh]

poleaxe has all three

it's for different attacks

not all at once

[ebon rune]

||i didnt watch the video, but is this stuff really so hard to understand? there is nothing crazy going on||

[hoary finch]

but not ranged, which makes it hard to balance things out

[hoary finch]

ah so it doesnt matter if a user of this weapon has all 3 types buffed

[scenic arrow]

Not supposed to

[lyric marsh]

no, but it would still be extremely powerful

[hoary finch]

no its just me tbh, im not a coding person so this is all really hard to digest for me

[fallow surge]

There is nothing about coding, it is just 1st grade math

[lyric marsh]

a class that's proficient with all three damage types is good at all combat

[gentle dock]

maltiez has evaporated ranged damage bonuses from CO and all of his ranged weapon mods so idk if its possible to add it back in

[hoary finch]

yes if you know the numbers...which i didnt 😉

[fallow surge]

Then learn the numbers first

🤷‍♂️

[hoary finch]

yeah so in the end, as it is right now its not really possible to balance damage with CO at all

[lyric marsh]

at this point it looks more like you're genuinely interested in co but haven't once played it

[hoary finch]

i cant help it that im just a class mod author and everyone wants this to work together

[lyric marsh]

co is DOMINATING

[hoary finch]

yeah

[lyric marsh]

it is INEVITABLE

if you want general power increases use the vanilla blaggard 30% melee damage perk

it's not quite as powerful as giving extra tiers to dumpster weapons but also scales well into endgame

[hoary finch]

yeah and what should i do with ranged classes?

[lyric marsh]

extra tiers are fine

even +2 tiers is balanced in my eyes

[gentle dock]

steady aim perks are important

[lyric marsh]

steady aim perk is extremely powerful and by default is only on hunter

[fallow surge]

damage tier bonus allows player to effectively use weapons that enemies are not vulnerable too, when material tier of these weapons is not high enough. Most usefull for slashing weapons, cuase no enemy is vulnurable to slashing

[hoary finch]

yup i got that

(finally)

[lyric marsh]

tiers for ranged weapons are very strong, especially since the only way they can increase them by default is endgame ammunition

guns can't increase their tiers at all

so that can be unique

[hoary finch]

yeah i think i know what i have to do. melee classes just stay as they are and keep their melee bonus stats. ranged need aim and tier

meh, not great but at least its a start. ty all for your patience

[wary swift]

With other mods it is, someone posted a patch on the moddb for that.

[fallow surge]

I will simplify entity damage protection, and change 75% to 50%, so it is always 50% damage if you dont have enough damage tier

[lyric marsh]

damn

could ineffective hits have a different sfx btw?

to communicate that they really are weaker

the lack of feedback on effective vs ineffective attacks might be a big source of confusion

[chilly dune]

Thinking about it after reading some of this, I feel like a better solution might be to make a non-spreadsheet visual explanation of the mechanics. Probably a good way to do that would be to take screenshots of an encounter with a bear, and go through the steps of how damage is calculated, pointing out the defense tier and weapon tier tooltips in-game. Probably you could then use different weapons at different tiers that explain the different in-game cases.

Cuz, tbh, I feel you guys are right that the mechanics are quite simple. But, I think this conversation highlights that the problem is that there isn't a very good explanation of those mechanics outside of that one video, and videos are great for providing an overview of a topic but aren't as good for reference material as written/visual explanations

[wary swift]

An average player of a game doesn't read.

Tutorials, hints, out of game explanations.

[chilly dune]

Well, that's kinda why I suggested using screenshots from the game

As a big part of the explanation

[wary swift]

The people who read explanations are a bit of a "vocal minority", which very heavily skews the perception of anything like that.

If those screenshots aren't from subway surfer, it might not be effective.

https://tenor.com/view/cat-smile-cute-kitten-kitty-gif-16033149

[lyric marsh]

hitting with a weapon of equal tier or higher is like getting the big shoe from subway suffer

[chilly dune]

I feel that as long as they are recognizable as in-game, they should be able to get over the initial intimidation for most players.
(And yes I know that there will always be people who just refuse to read, but the goal should not be to just smugly dismiss humanity as stupid and, instead, to actually use one's own brain to recognize what those people's mindset and logic is and use that knowledge to make things more accessible to them.)

[wary swift]

In general, games get over this issue with clarity, even when it's at dispense of immersion or even gameplay as a whole.

Famous brightly painted yellow ladders and climbable ledges are a good example for this, but more on the extreme side.
Vintage Story itself very much lacks clarity, which is one of its bigger drawbacks currently.
The fact that even a remotely attentive player needs external resources to figure out many parts of the game is showing it pretty evidently, at least to me.

[lyric marsh]

so can we get a common voice on what the big issues are that need addressing?

everyone will say something different

[wary swift]

Co kinda doubly falls into the same pitfall/has it even worse, because it's not just mechanically complex, it's also numerically complex.

It doesn't make it a bad mod, or badly designed mod, but in my opinion it's a mod with poor communication.
I can get into details about what can get better, but many of these details could entail big reworks of ux, and other parts of the game co touches, and sometimes it's even in the base games "curfew", like some parts of the ui.

[lyric marsh]

yeah the simplest way i can think of is more ui, but ew

no more ui please

though i wonder if the enemy tooltip can be changed to be more informative and dynamic without taking up too much space

i don't know if the top tooltip can display colored text, but that could be a simple change

make the defense numbers red or green depending on if your currently held weapon meets the breakpoint or not

i think that alone would clear up confusion with game literate people

[chilly dune]

These are good points, though that's also kinda what I was trying to address. While in-game clarity would indeed be best, the next-best is out-of-game documentation and references, and having those references be in multiple formats is good because different formats will appeal more to different people. Having a screenshot or series of screenshots that does a walkthrough of how damage is applied in CO would, imo, be a good addition to the documentation that is currently available

Plus, it wouldn't take that much effort to make, depending on how you go about it

[lyric marsh]

that's something malt would outsource to the community

so you could make it and show it to him

[chilly dune]

I might be able to, we'll see though

[fallow surge]

WIP on weapon damage and entities hp rebalance

[crystal depot]

just started using CO, but one effective method would be a tutorial/training NPC.

a la KCD.

[lyric marsh]

dummy exists

damage logs are also an option

[crystal depot]

Does the dummy joust w/you? I haven't popped into creative to try it.

[lyric marsh]

oh wow that's a complete redo huh..

[fallow surge]

Not a complete

Ranged weapons damages stay close to previous values

[lyric marsh]

nah it doesn't hit back, but it's all you need for testing weapons

[crystal depot]

yeah, I mean a typical moves tutorial sequence, and then a practice bot

[fallow surge]

But melee weapons rebalance needs entities health rebalance, and health rebalance needs adjustments for ranged weapons damages

[lyric marsh]

so what is damage category?

does it replace damage types?

[fallow surge]

No, it standardizes melee weapons damages

[lyric marsh]

not a bad idea

this will make me use spears a whole lot more

or well, i have to see it in action first

the ranged sheet is confusing

do weapons have a max possible damage output now?

[fallow surge]

No

[lyric marsh]

well, whatever it is i'm interested

[ebon rune]

interesting...
when to expect?

[lyric marsh]

it'll be out when it's out

[wary swift]

Day of the month that ends in "-y", february 30th.

[lyric marsh]

this just in: the combat overhaul update will come out

[glossy oracle]

I couldn't sign things more than this statement, I also don't understand why so many people entertain those "to silly goose" people it's not like it's your problem if one doesn't understand it ignore after trying to explain once.

.
Like Co math is isn't even that hard nor important if you understand that each weapon is meant for different things? Let alone 30% as buff can screw the dps anyway for the "simple math". If one just plays the mod they will get a feel for it. Eventually realize hm for some reason my copper sword is worse than an iron sword for dealing all kind of mobs. Some may come to the conclusion gear foot is resistant to my piercing/ slashing and makes fighting harder!

The dude has been trying to understand Co since 2 days and didn't understand it cause he didnt experiment with it

[glossy oracle]

Co is only complex if your used to spoon feeding. Most people are to silly to fix issues themself. Best case was when one goose said if I did something after the guy added a clientside mod... Ofc I am at fault for his game crashing, despite not even restarting the server.

There is a reason why catering to everyone will drive anyone with a tiny bit of intellect insane. Reading comprehension is a "foreign word" for most people. They don't strive to find the information themselves they strive to be spoon fed without using their thinking tank.

.
Also people call the armory system complex like no offense this is just a basic layering ... It's not like you even need to do math now with the dmg slider to see how much you block against mob enemys xyz.

You don't get any bonus stats like some rpg where you get perks adsing % or conditional stuff.

In short It's just wrong to cater to everyone, and simplify the mod cause a loud minority can't understand basics. I'd wager considering it's one of the most downloaded mod the silent majority understands 90% of the stuff

[wary swift]

This is, unfortunately, a bad way to look at things.
It may sound tempting to engage only with those who are quick at pickup and very easily grasp every single bit of information presented to them, but keep in mind, this is a game. Entertainment, which is often used by people to escape from things like responsibility, sophisticated problem solving or something else.

[wary swift]

Ironically, it seems you didn't read the sentence I wrote down correctly, and misinterpreted it pretty heavily.
"The understanders" is this "loud minority".

[glossy oracle]

Nah m8 most people don't use games to escapism not to that extent you'd wish to believe. Most are just lazy to read

You can't sincerely tell me Combat overhaul is complex

It is a basic armour layering system like many games with 10 equipment slots and 3 dmg types.

[wary swift]

While it's important to not try to spread yourself over every single request or critique, it's also important to not fall into the "expert fallacy" or "echo chamber" situation.

[glossy oracle]

It's like someone saying terraria is complex cause you can combine multiple combos of armor and special items.

[glossy oracle]

How is it in this case? Like it's just a loud minority, you guys try to explain basic things but their just resistant to it?

Cause they don't want to put in effort.

It's like when you sell stuff you can weed out very fast which customer is a window "shopper" wasting your time and who's not.

[pallid ivy]

mind if we butt in?

[glossy oracle]

If people can't be bothered to do 1 tiny bit research idk man those are the people you should leave behind.

It's a public channel, do as you please

[pallid ivy]

we see where you're coming from and everything

and yes it's a very simple mod

but there are a couple extremely important things youre dismissing

[wary swift]

I, unfortunately, don't understand what you're trying to say here, and have no mental capacity to do so right now, as I'm quite tired at the moment.

[glossy oracle]

All I am thinking is it's not like anyone earns money with Co unless it's commission stuff. It's just like most things if a product is good hardly anyone does positive reviews but you'd see thousand of people reviewing bad things.

[glossy oracle]

Go sleep and rest

[wary swift]

It's not about sleeping time, it's just physical exertion, but that's irrelevant.

[glossy oracle]

The best course of action is to rest and put irrelevant things aside for the time being?

[wary swift]

Id just say this:
I believe co is a complex mod, yes. That doesn't mean I consider it "difficult".
My reasoning: it's a multifaceted system that alters, removes or adds to sometimes very disparate, though related parts of the game.

[glossy oracle]

I am just a yap master, the reason I play VS is for complexity. If i were interested in simple thing's I'd be playing other block game. The only complex things are the tech mods which many people love.

So if people can understand the premise of VS Vanilla and ore progression and understanding prospecting. I'd wager it's just as always a loud minority in terms of mods who don't understand mods who add tiny but of depth. You can't explain to me one doesn't understand the 3 dmg types or armour layer system but understand Vintagestory.

[pallid ivy]

1: there's nothing wrong with someone being "dumber", that's perfectly okay and there's no need for any sort of ableism or similar
2: finding it easier to ask instead of researching does not make someone dumb, it's just convenient and people are happy to help
3: everyone, smart or dumb, makes mistakes and understands things differently and even the smartest person in the world will fail to understand basic simple concepts sometimes

there is nothing wrong with "catering to everyone", it's just making the mod better for people and saving people from issues. it's not the players fault for not understanding and if it makes people happier to simplify things instead of keep it as is (which is definitely a case by case basis) then you should do so!

[fallow surge]

Tutorials and guides, in video or text form - is out of scope of my work.

[glossy oracle]

Yeah it's fine for number one. It is convenient as why would one yap so much instead of trying it first themselves? It's obvious many complainers spend 3 seconds playing the mod and then being like why. Tab out and write xyz issue. Especially if people install 30 mods and don't realize mh xyz mod is at fault for not making xyz work.

That is factually untrue catering to everyone is only beneficiary if you have an interest to gain monetary value. Otherwise it lowers the complexity and quality of things, not everything is meant for everyone.

.
Vintagestory is the niche for the people seeking complexity in survival games and the other block game.

It is very much the players fault for not trying to interact with a mod he added?

.
We all have responsibility with our choices if I decide to mod any game of mine. I accept issues harder challenges.

It's like choosing hardcore and then complaining that you have no ui.

[pallid ivy]

why on earth would you think that's "factually untrue"

catering doesnt inherently lower value and every dev has different values and objectives

it's impossible to be factually untrue

[glossy oracle]

It is just true unless you seek monetary value?

Or do you have anything else to back it up.

Games with complex mechanics don't become mainstream.

It becomes a niche

Games with simple mechanics and broader aspect to appeal to everyone will have great player bases and higher monetary gain.

[pallid ivy]

it's not, positive utility is determined by a variable scale dependent on the devs' values and goals

[glossy oracle]

Give me a example all your yapping is about none existent data

A dev can try to cater to everyone and this will lead to simplification. Maltiez literally has a preview with a easier simplified dmg type.

Like do you even understand it?

[glossy oracle]

Here

Light medium heavy heavy+

He did a approach to simplify it to the demand to cater to the loud minority.

Let alone for anyone using their thinking brain, unless armor doesn't use piercing etc it must be simplified with the same terms for melee perhaps.

For continuity.

[fallow surge]

No, it not because of this

[glossy oracle]

May you elaborate as of why then? This simplification of wording regarding the 3 dmg types. That's the context i read.

[pallid ivy]

okay, let's say you have a dev who wants to make a game for the purpose of introducing old people into video games
that dev would want to make it as catered as possible for greatest utility

[fallow surge]

Not damage types

[glossy oracle]

What is this argument with "old people" 😂 your aware the old gamers from 1990 are considered old.

And games used to be less accessible you got your handbook and found the page for info xyz

Any old person will play Minecraft not Vintagestory

That's just by the nature of those 2 games. (If their getting into gaming)

[pallid ivy]

and yet most older people atm do not have basically any ability to play games like first person shooters

[fallow surge]

HP values and damage values are being standardized and being made a multiples of 4 or 2 for sake of balance. So there are no cases, when a weapon has 0.5 higher damage, but every enemy will still take same amount of hits to kill

[glossy oracle]

Where you taking the data from?

[gentle bane]

So from my experience before spears/pikes didn't have multihit and now they do, now they are on part with swords in terms of crowd damage and I would say that they are better becasue of reach
idk if it's already a thing but it would be nice if each consecutive hit would have slightly decreased damage or if there was like 50ms-100ms stop before swing continues allowing for next hit

[fallow surge]

it is also made for future smiting mechanics from 1.22, so I can have meaningful buffs to weapon performance

[glossy oracle]

So in short making it not like vanilla dmg type where 10% dmg bonus rarely matters

[pallid ivy]

first of all, we'd have to define "old"

what are you counting for "old"

well

[glossy oracle]

In terms of gaming anything past 40

[pallid ivy]

guess we're making the claim so we get to choose

[glossy oracle]

Doesn't take away from your nonsense 0 data takes.

No old guy will know Vintagestory but will know Minecraft...

[pallid ivy]

you asked for an example

[glossy oracle]

No old guy will know arma 3 but will know call of duty

[pallid ivy]

we gave you an example

[pallid ivy]

it literally wasnt an argument that could have stats

[glossy oracle]

And your example is nonsense

[pallid ivy]

"nonsense" isnt a reason

[glossy oracle]

You used old people to start a argument why catering to everyone is good to bring people into video games. But the context is Vintagestory and mods

[pallid ivy]

if you cant provide a real counterpoint it's hardly a discussion

[glossy oracle]

No old people will use mods you silly goose

[fallow surge]

Ok, I think this conversation went for too long and gone to offtopic, please move to another channel.

[pallid ivy]

fair

[glossy oracle]

I won't continue this further as it's more than obvious some are not on the same standings.

[pallid ivy]

that's usually why people argue but alright

[glossy oracle]

So it is confirmed the whetstone for the update will bring temporary buffs to it? For vanilla 5
Tools?

[pallid ivy]

the reason we came to this thread in the first place was to ask about some stuff we couldnt find online or in search

[glossy oracle]

The simplification will make it for you easier to apply those? How will you handle the armour naming then?

[pallid ivy]

we lost access to the game temporarily, but are theory crafting

but without the ability to test

[glossy oracle]

As those 4 stats don't exist for armour yet.

[pallid ivy]

we just have to ask

how do shields work?

we know you can block and parry

and parrying we would assume is the same as melee weapons

but we do not know how blocking dmg reduction works

is it as if you had an armor boost?

is it a full reduction?

is it just a flat -50%? or -7 dmg?

ect ect

we've used two handed weapons only in our last playthrough

[gentle bane]

https://youtu.be/ALC6_QvqgbQ

200s or smth

[pallid ivy]

hm

hope subtitles will work

no audio on devices QwQ

[pallid ivy]

cool, text for everything

thank u <3

answered our questions pretty well

although some of it seems out of date?

[crystal depot]

this is a strange assertion

we grew up with LAN parties

I played a lot of the original Marathon.

Halo before Halo.

Doom and its clones before that.

My N64 and Goldeneye cart are around here somewhere. OG Counterstrike. etc.

Ive played a decent amount of Destiny 2 over its life. It's probably true that older gamers are less interested in playing Fortnite with the squeakers, or the CoD treadmill, orValorant and/or the latest flavor of the week arena shooter.

[fallow surge]

Please, move offtopic to another channel

[fallow surge]

If I will see better ways to convey this information, and it will not require me writing text or making videos, I will add it (like I've done with armor). Otherwise guides and tutorials is out of scope of my work.

[crystal depot]

That's entirely reasonable.

[fallow surge]

Should be fixed now

[hollow pasture]

The most damage penalty to enemies is 50%

[hollow pasture]

You're welcome ❤️

[ebon rune]

armor piercing tier is only for player armor right?

[fallow surge]

Yes

[fallow surge]

Rebalance is out... Expect a lot of backlash.
Also it will definitely need adjustments of entities health values

[scenic arrow]

Tried it out

And earlygame is much more powerful,

The javellins have amazing dmg and with the range, are viable against brown bears(i literally spawned in a world made a javellin and killed a brown bear nearby, no armor, and with some mods which make my life harder)

The club 3 shots any drifter

2 if blackguard

The early game dps seems overly inflated in favor of the player, if using the correct attack type

[dusk nacelle]

either my testing is scuffed or bellheads dont resist bullets on their faces anymore

[scenic arrow]

I mean, ive yet to meet someone who can outsmart boolet

[dusk nacelle]

nah my testing was scuffed

however bone arrows are almost disgustingly strong

(unless my drops are borked, they're 4 damage no tier which gets multiplied and are piercing damage which is godly for bears)

they're doing as much as steel arrows

[scenic arrow]

Jesus

[dusk nacelle]

yeah its not the other bone arrow in the creative menu

they break so often but getting 9-18 damage/hit on bears is juicy (with a recurve)

[fallow surge]

9-18?

[gentle dock]

The meteoric iron halberd is two tiers higher than the steel halberd, typo probably. Checked all the other weapons and they look fine.

[dusk nacelle]

using a recurve bow i was doing 9 damage on like the limb - 18 damage on the headshot

using floating damage text and hp bar mods to verify how much it was doing

[gentle dock]

a recurve can hit 18 damage on a headshot assuming the arrow tier is high enough

[fallow surge]

Recurve should do 8 not 12, I swapped long and recurve accidently

[gentle dock]

oh shit yeah Longbow is just a x2 damage multiplier

[dusk nacelle]

still, bone arrows on whatever should do the 3x is a little nutty

[gentle dock]

Crossbows take the biggest W since if you use them for hunting then the tier does not matter

Copper bolt in a windlass is basically just as good as a steel bolt for bear hunting

[dusk nacelle]

thats what makes the bone arrows so good, since they do about as much as steel (or from what i could tell exactly as much on polar bears)

just by nature of not dealing with the armor

[fallow surge]

Ranged weapon damage was mostly unchanged, except for all ammunition dealing the same damage, just different damage tier

Hm, ok

[fallow surge]

Make them break chance 100% or halve the damage?

[dusk nacelle]

nah the break chance is fine imo

the fact they break often and are only farmable via bowtorns means there's an actual reason to harvest bowtorns now

maybe it will end up being a bit more balanced when you swap the longbow/recurve mult? havent messed with the bows enough post update to really say how overturned it might be

just kinda went into a superflat and tested some of the stuff

[lyric marsh]

oh the update's out

will test later today

bow mults absolutely need to be swapped

[flat compass]

yo maltiez ok if my dev helps out with fixing a little bit of the lag

he said he wanted to fix it up

[fallow surge]

What lag?

They can make a pull request

[flat compass]

@lunar robin

[lunar robin]

Where is the link for the github

We are having a problem with the sabres causing crashes

[fallow surge]

on moddb

[fallow surge]

so is it crashes or lag?

[lunar robin]

Crashes

[fallow surge]

Do you have a mod for meteoric steel?

[lunar robin]

Hmm, I believe so

[fallow surge]

Try removing it

or compat mod for it

[lunar robin]

Our handbook doesn't have the meteoric steel actually

Just the iron

[fallow surge]

Send full logs with crashes

[lunar robin]

Sounds good let me force it

[lunar robin]

Wait now it saying overhaullib what

[lunar robin]

Gooootttt it, we will try to see if that fixes the crash

[fallow surge]

Also, what the hell is this, there is no such item in armory

Find mod that adds it, it causes the crashes

[lunar robin]

Can Metals

Says it compatible with Armory

[fallow surge]

Apparently it is not

[lunar robin]

Hmm okay I'll look into this, thank you for your help

[lyric marsh]

peeps who have tried the update, was my prediction correct that spears are busted now?

[spare current]

im about to load into the game so i'll see about that

what was the update anyways

[lyric marsh]

total weapon damage redesign

[spare current]

wait

[lyric marsh]

weapons are now split into damage tiers

[spare current]

copper and lead have identical damage now?

YESSSS

[lyric marsh]

who said that

[spare current]

ehh

[lyric marsh]

those should work same as before

[spare current]

maybe i should check firearms thread

[turbid pilot]

I might be stupid, but damage redesign how exactly? from me just quickly poking around in the creative inventory before work I don't see a lot of changes but I don't know the mod by heart.

only real change I noticed immediately was my steel longsword now doing 4 damage one handed where I think it was 5* before

[lyric marsh]

everything has damage categories now

and does the same damage at every material tier, only changing damage tier

this will be a lot easier to balance

[turbid pilot]

Was that not what we had already? I must be blind then

Thx for the headsup

[lyric marsh]

it seems onehanded weapons do 4, hybrids do 4/6, and 2h only do 8

also, when tier isn't met damage is always halved now

so you could say, use a falx for 4 damage or use a spear inefficiently for 3 twohanded

i like that

[turbid pilot]

What happens again if you exceed a tier? Playing a blackguard on my world and that has become more relevant with the other recent ish update that gives me an extra damage tier for slashing

[lyric marsh]

equal or higher 100%, lower 50%

[turbid pilot]

Aha, thought that exceeding the tier got me a damage boost for some reason.
Aight thx for the clarifications

[gentle bane]

Maybe it would be a good idea to rename damage tier to armor penetration

[ebon rune]

it will be confusing because only players have armor

[turbid pilot]

It would be more instinctive to me then damage tier is.

[lyric marsh]

nah damage tier is fine

damage, damage tier

instead of damage, armor penetration

[gentle bane]

Can we get damage represented by dice rolls and ap? Something like 2d3 4 etc

[slate valve]

Dice rolls? Why dice rolls?

It's just a flat number

[gentle bane]

To add rng into the game

Damage range could be representative of damage multipliers on player model

[slate valve]

That's a terrible idea both for balance consistency and player experience

[gentle bane]

It wouldn't be confusing at all

[slate valve]

I disagree

People are already reporting that entities have a different HP value than what they really do because "X animal takes Y hits to kill", it would be a mess

Plus I have no idea what positive thing it would add

Rng isn't inherently good

[unborn robin]

Hi guys I have issues hitting some stuff with vanilla spear, like chicken etc, how should I do it i watched some videos but im new

[slate valve]

The values in the spreadsheet for enemy/weapon balancing doesn't take into account entity resistances, right? It assumes optimal damage? So a brown bear will, in the best case scenario, take 8 hits to kill with a 2h melee weapon?

[lyric marsh]

way easier in co

[gentle bane]

We all came to a conclusion that it wasn't co's fault but wrong assumption

[unborn robin]

I use combat overhaul

[lyric marsh]

vanilla has an arbitrary frame on which the raycast in the middle of your screen activates

here it's active for the entire thrust

in co, just angle it right

or shorten it if you really are in a bad position

m2+scroll

[unborn robin]

shorten is for shorter range right ?

but why i cant really see my weapon when i aim d own, shouldnt it follow my camera view ?

[lyric marsh]

do you have ifp enabled

[unborn robin]

no

it says its bugging on my screen when its enabled

[lyric marsh]

then restart the game

[wary swift]

That's not the mod you're thinking of, it only makes falling meteorites appear, not change meteoric iron.

[fallow surge]

Ah, yeah

[lyric marsh]

quarterstaff also gets 8 damage?

that's nutty

[fallow surge]

8 for top strike, 6 for side strikes

[lyric marsh]

should say that on the tin

[fallow surge]

🤷‍♂️

Technically I can flood the item description with each attack stats

Would it be helpful? I doubt that

[lyric marsh]

quarterstaff is probably the most buffed weapon from this update regardless

it used to have low damage and low tier

great as a cheap self defense weapon

now it's an actual considerable combat option

[fallow surge]

It had same tier as other weapons, and same damage as 1.5h weapons

[tranquil onyx]

Reads pretty substantial - it’s good to have more reasons for using it, though.

[granite storm]

maltiez, do you have a link for me to read up on damage and armor calculations of co?

are halberds battle axes or spears?

[granite storm]

is quarterstaff a spear?

Im asking bcs im the sweatshop smith that needs to smith gear for everyone on my server and idk what to smith for whom

[fallow surge]

pinned message

[lyric marsh]

yes it is a spear that has been used so many times it's become a stump

[granite storm]

where can I find pinned messages? sry im unc

[granite storm]

so, good for a hunter and the class buff

[lyric marsh]

no it's not a spear

[granite storm]

https://tenor.com/view/ahhh-disappear-vanish-dying-emoji-gif-2152887726774041836

[lyric marsh]

it has its own prof

and it's a blunt weapon

[granite storm]

what class is proficient in staffs? the malefactor?

[lyric marsh]

glockmaker

[granite storm]

malefactor can do - oh

[lyric marsh]

every weapon shows its proficiency in the tooltip

right at the top

[granite storm]

ill check that once everyone is assembled again, tyvm

and halberds are its own thing too then?

[lyric marsh]

yes, only halberds

[granite storm]

what are they designed for? also clockmakers

[lyric marsh]

hunter has the prof for them

[granite storm]

cool, made my hunter a voulge

[lyric marsh]

you can change the length of halberds

m2+scroll

[granite storm]

can I do the same with claymores?

[lyric marsh]

and the thrust attack does piercing

[granite storm]

built one but realized I cant swing at all in caves

and thats usually where I fight

[lyric marsh]

no greatswords have a parry instead

[granite storm]

goblin slayer was right all along

😔

shortsword it is

[lyric marsh]

arming sword is like a shortsword for people who can use directional attacks

[gentle bane]

Torch seems to be viable

[wary swift]

There's a thrusting attack.

[granite storm]

does the thrust do pierce damage with a sword or is it still slashing?

also, how do I know what type of damage the enemies use and what tiers of armor they wear?

[fallow surge]

By looking at them and reading info on the top

[lyric marsh]

if the weapon doesn't say it has that damage type, it doesn't

[granite storm]

thx guys

[lyric marsh]

since the repeater can only take flint and copper bolts, could its tier be increased to 3?

so that it's not stuck on a tier of 1

[fallow surge]

I will look into it, I will probably allow all bolts to be used with it

[hollow pasture]

Damage tier is a base game term

[lyric marsh]

the other crossbows feel a lot more powerful now

partly due to the pretty rounded numbers

windlass headshot 50.0 damage 👌

[turbid pilot]

It is yes. was more so reaction to somebody saying it should be something else (meaning something else in the base game)

[spare current]

blow their head smoove off

[fallow surge]

Headshots make stuff complicated... But I dont want to remove them

[lyric marsh]

i'd rather headshots give the target a massive movespeed penalty for a couple seconds

exceeding a certain power

the problem i see with that is low movespeeds look extremely janky with movement animations

as they don't have speed scale or anything

[spare current]

i think headshots are fairly balanced if we're going for realism

theres also the second chance mechanic

[lyric marsh]

player headshots and entity headshots are different

[spare current]

ohh

[lyric marsh]

to a player that would be 80 damage

also an observation

after playing clockmaker reloads feel a lot more satisfying when going back to normal speed

the animations really lose their weight at hyperspeed

[spare current]

could tune down headshot damage multi perhaps

[lyric marsh]

it's already low

1.25x

[gentle bane]

give clockmaker increased reload speed after killing/hitting/headshot?

I would say that I dislike weapon proficiencies as they are, it just really cuts out option if you go by what deals the most dps with current class

[lyric marsh]

too arcadey

[round copper]

Is there any real reason to use different directional attacks except for when it gives you a different damage type?

[civic dragon]

If you turn on weapon terrain collisions in the CO settings it can make things more fun in enclosed spaces. Also frustrating, but it comes with the territory.

[round copper]

Ohhh nice

So it's a bit like mordhau

[civic dragon]

Yes, exactly, 75% of the reason I can't live without this mod, lol.

[glass tiger]

if i want to edit values like the aim or hunger debuff where must i do it? here or somewhere else

[glossy oracle]

armory_1.8.3.zip\assets\armory\itemtypes\armor

combatoverhaul_0.12.7.zip\assets\combatoverhaul\patches

[glass tiger]

i am trying to edit this completed one

this seems like it is the individual pieces

@fallow surge apologies for the ping but do you know how or where i can edit the values specifically for the completed chain body armor instead of individual pieces?

[warm garden]

The patches for the full armor sets are in the base Combat Overhaul mod (not in the CO Armory mod), they are in the "armor" file in the patches folder

[glass tiger]

like here? i didn't find an armor file

oh, nevermind just did

i looked at itemtypes last time

didnt see patches, thank you

[warm garden]

No problem, ask in #mods-general if you need some pointers on making a json patch

[glossy oracle]

that's for combat overhaul thats why I send for both mods the path

ah you found it good

[glass tiger]

yes, i did. thank you regardless

[mighty nacelle]

I noticed that you rebalanced a lot of things. Is there a summary or something so I can glance at all the balancing changes? or will I have to diff the jsons myself?

[crystal depot]

Seeing this in the logs
12.1.2026 15:35:26 [Warning] [Overhaul lib] [HarmonyPatches] (game:chicken-hen) Listed colliders that were not found in shape: Body, leg right, leg left, thighs right, thighs left, throat
12.1.2026 15:35:33 [Warning] [Overhaul lib] [HarmonyPatches] (game:drifter-tainted) Listed colliders that were not found in shape: R lower arm

[wary swift]

There's a mod on the mod db that already does this as a patch, meaning it's not gonna be deleted every single time you update co and coa.

[glass tiger]

i found the one that removes hunger but it isn't updated so i think i might have to painstakingly update the other values one by one

but i did get it working for the chain, which i wanted most, thankfully

[round peak]

anyone figured out why combat overhual crashes when picking up a bow from Nyda villiage?

I have tried to narrow it down, but it does not appear consistent

Im not a PC person, and I dont know how to read logs, its like greek. however, this is what I got from chat GPT. https://chatgpt.com/share/6965a96e-c73c-800c-a940-a9845b958063

im addiing this,. idk how long it lasts. but it contains all the crashlogs

and it shows me disabling things and then adding the new crashlog into it

Unfortunatly, I have had to give up. It seems like my methodology has an error of somekind. I ended with narrowing it to three. activated all 1 after the ohter. all seemed to work. And then it dident the next time i tried. each time I created a new world to find the excat same bow (guard tower main gate first floor)

[zenith nexus]

The mod made this fight a lot more fun

[lyric marsh]

definitely leaps and bounds above its vanilla iteration but it's still the same fight under the hood

would need much more fundamental change to be good

[viral blaze]

someone made a mod to make armorer kits for this mod cheaper lol

[lyric marsh]

how can it get any cheaper than 0.25 ingots

[zenith nexus]

real wish there was more to it

[gentle dock]

enclosed room + immobile boss means the fight is always going to be a snooze fest

[round peak]

has anyone solved the issue of longbows crashing the game?

or do you guys, just avoid picking them up?

[fallow surge]

Just dont steal from villagers, also it should be protected and you should no be able to pick it up

Also yeah, guys, have you solved it?

[round peak]

holy shit!

[round peak]

hei! do you know if its a valid strat to just not steal from villagers?!

its the first bugged item I found, which means that I could avoid it potentially and still use CO.

or are there other items?

I swear if I have been trying to solve a problem that I have created and fixated on for days xd

I will cringe hard

[crystal depot]

Still, it ought not crash the game?

[round peak]

honestly thats, beyond my understanding. I thought that I would eventurally and inveitably get a longbow and lose my world again

but if its limited to simply dont steal. that I can do

[fallow surge]

It just have "readerVariant": 1 attribute for some reason, and you cant get that in normal gameplay, so lib had not accounted for that

[crystal depot]

ah, well, then. Simple enough.

It's not a normal longbow, Andre.

I'd just keep playing and see if you have problems with any others.

[round peak]

im such a :::::: Noob... I can not belive how much effort I have put into solving this nonexisting issue

i geuss il reupdate all the mods again. I have been reverting backwards to see if that would solve the issue xd

[lyric marsh]

not really, a bullethell could work really well in a situation like this

enclosed rooms have a lot of gameplay potential, even with a crippled target

[crystal depot]

my least favorite kind of gameplay, but some people love them

[lyric marsh]

they just didn't do anything that would make the fight work

eidolon feels like they made a placeholder prototype for a boss and then gave up

erel at least, as much as it's hated, has some merit and functions as a bossfight

reminds me of classic monster hunter, even if not in a good way

[glossy oracle]

I never got to the boss fights as I was to scared to jump into eidolons hole or erel whoever is the first location :"D. So they don't have a gimmick like Ender Dragon in Mc? Would that not compliment it more to have a gimmick mechanic than just straight forward bonk bonk? It be interesting to use some machine which keeps it alive and destroy it while he spawns either some creatures or shoot stuff.

Didn't play any of those so I don't know if something like this is already implemented, but vanilla combat is just eh so having gimmick mechancis just fits more?

[tranquil onyx]

Maybe it didn’t need to be anything else/more interesting and the important thing was just having the location „out of the door” for players to explore/see.

Not that it matters much for CO though - let’s not dwell on it

I think there might have been a discussion held with this change in mind ~2 days ago, but was this made to also accommodate for a WIP patch that will aim to balance melee weapons?

I’m curious more than anything - the change itself isn’t super significant anyway

[fallow surge]

It makes it easier to balance and also to explain to ppl how it works

The purpose of 75% was to make it easier on players, but it seems there is no need in it

[tranquil onyx]

👌

[hollow pasture]

Ever fought the Dragun in Enter the Gungeon? Plenty of potential

[crystal depot]

@fallow surge not sure if you want feedback on Vanity Slots here or a new channel for it, but it seems to be looking for PlayerLib on shutdown ('dispose'') which is erroring out.

[fallow surge]

... I will make a channel for vanity slots

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1460714404546085121

[warm garden]

Does Sneaking do anything to effect the steady aim stat (as in sneaking will steady your aim)? I always do that instinctually but its that actually a thing in CO?

[fallow surge]

nope

May be it should

[warm garden]

Would be nice if standing still also gave a small buff to healing effectiveness as well (as in makes application time faster)

[fallow surge]

Will suggest it for vanilla

[primal quest]

Hey, my world had the following patching errors, and just wanted to make sure if this gonna break something eventually:
13.1.2026 16:40:37 [Error] Patch 3 (target: game:itemtypes/wearable/seraph/armor-hide.json) in combatoverhaul:patches/armor-hide.json failed because supplied path /attributes/statModifiers is invalid: The json path /attributes/statModifiers was not found. Could traverse until /attributes, but then 'statModifiers' does not exist.

[fallow surge]

Some other mods tries to patch it too, remove this mod, it will add stats to armor that it is not meant to have

[ebon rune]

bash attacks does not have terrain collisions

is it intended?

[primal quest]

Is there a way for me to know which mods are patching a specific file?

[fallow surge]

Will look later

[ebon rune]

im using poleaxe

[fallow surge]

You can batch unzip all mods, open mods folder in VSCode and use search function to find file that patches this file

[primal quest]

Oh nice, thank you!

[wary swift]

Couldn't it be easier to look through the cache unpack folder, or am I wrong?

[elder saddle]

@fallow surge Many of our players have been receiving the same crash, wanted to know your input

[fallow surge]

Make sure it is related first

This is just an exception in vanilla code

[round peak]

hei, is there a ideal order of installation

currently, I have collected all other mods. I have ensured they function. no crashes, warrnings etc

now its Attribute Rendering Library, Extra Firearms [FORK], Overhaul lib, Combat Overhaul: Armory, Combat Overhaul, Swords, Firearms, Crossbows

[fallow surge]

There is no special order, you just drop mods into folder, and start the game, thats all.

[round peak]

I have redone everything due to CO, and ARL breaking

okay, im taking every measure to make sure im not messing it up again

[glass tiger]

is something wrong with my game or is this just how CO works? the bow appears to have no sound when you draw back an arrow. it still makes a sound when shooting, though

[fallow surge]

It is how real life works

[glass tiger]

on a wooden bow you can often hear the straining of the wood, but its quiet compared to the vanilla sounds yeah

[fallow surge]

If your wooden bow makes such sounds, it means, that this bow's life is over, and you should not use it, unless you want wood shards in your eyes.

[glass tiger]

i said strain not like the wood splintering and breaking lmao

modern bows dont have that problem and some wood types are flexible enough to not hear it, but like

a historical english longbow for example of yew wood, you can hear it

not like we're using proper conditioning on something like the crude bow either lol

[dusk nacelle]

Even modern compound bows make some noise muted as it is

It’s not as loud as the arrow sliding against the stave but yeah

[fallow surge]

I never heard a bow make a sound when drawn

May be for some old bow in a completely silent room, may be

[dusk nacelle]

Do you shoot bows?

[fallow surge]

I did

Both historical long bows and historical composite ones

Though all under 64 pounds

On release - yes, on draw - no

Though on release string makes all the noise

[dusk nacelle]

It’s usually caused by the string rubbing against the notches on the staves, and at worst the stave is splintering and dying

[fallow surge]

Anyway, there is no reason to have stereotypical laud gamy screeching sound

[dusk nacelle]

Yeah they’re supposed to be quiet, bows making sounds is usually a signal something is wrong

[uneven nymph]

Hi all, AIA if I'm in the wrong spot. I keep getting a crash report that is pointing to overhaul lib. My experience to read and understand code is minimal at best, so I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for here. Is it this mod or something else?

[fallow surge]

remove [email protected]

[uneven nymph]

thank you for the quick response 🙏

[fallow surge]

Compat mod that is not compatible with the mod it adds compat with...

[ebon rune]

https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-7914082

[split verge]

does armor take extra durability damage if the incoming attack is higher tier than the armor itself?

[crystal depot]

you mean a line of archers doesn't make a sound like a creaking door?

hollywood lied again!

[fallow surge]

It always takes durability damage equal to incomming damage distributed over all layers

[next wasp]

I hope they actually update it

[wet niche]

will there be an update in the future where damage values for one handed version of weapons like longsword and spear will be shown?

[ebon rune]

you can just read you know...

[pallid ivy]

is there a spreadsheet for the resistances and hp of mobs?

we know there's a pinned one for their dmg and your armor but that's not what we're looking for

[slim inlet]

There's also their HP in there

[pallid ivy]

really? didnt see it at all but also our UI for sheets is bugged

ah found it

now we just need their resistances

[wet niche]

im blind im sowwy

[dusky widget]

hey, is here the right place to ask about the changes to aiming system, or should i rather ask in bullseye thread?

[lyric marsh]

here's good

also, there haven't been any changes to the system to my knowledge

just weapon stats

unless you mean the system as a whole

[dusky widget]

i wanted to ask if there's a way to increase aiming skil, by progressing, instead of just decreasing the config

[lyric marsh]

no

[fallow surge]

RPG system is out of scope of this series of mods

[lyric marsh]

you can take hunter for the prof which is massive

and wear less armor

[dusky widget]

also, it seems like most of combat overhaul: armory armours locked behind clothier skill, wanted to confirm if that's true

[fallow surge]

none are locked

[lyric marsh]

armory mostly separates existing armor into pieces

[fallow surge]

Where did you get this information?

[lyric marsh]

no crafts are tailor exclusive

tailor can just get some things slightly earlier

[dusky widget]

i wanted to craft myself some under-armour (gambeson) and all of it's versions require item that only clother can make

[lyric marsh]

don't keep your mouse on it

it cycles

[dusky widget]

i don't...

[fallow surge]

First of all, gambeson is not "most of armors", then everyone can make kits

[lyric marsh]

two crafts, one default, one tailor

tailor can make it with a bronze nail, everyone else needs iron

[dusky widget]

ohh

ok, that explains it

[dusky widget]

many other armours required the kits, which i thought are clothier exclusive

i stand corrected

[fallow surge]

only underarmor

2 jerkin sets and 2 gambeson sets

[lyric marsh]

i like co's system more, especially post rebalance

[dusky widget]

btw, what is middle-only armour?

[fallow surge]

Chainmail

[dusky widget]

no, non-metal version?

[fallow surge]

wdym? Why you need non-metal version?

[dusky widget]

im poor :3

[glossy oracle]

technically scale as its middle and outer layer

[fallow surge]

You can make leather armor (not jerkin) for outer layer, if you have problems with metals

[dusky widget]

i have bear hide armour for outer layer for now

[glossy oracle]

I mean there no middle armour excpet chain or armor taking outer and middle. There is also not much choice if you don't want to wear metall? I mean it's either laminar wood / bear / jerkin / hide / gambeson for early game if you dont wanna use any metal

You could just go in sp and creative and check it out yourself^^

[fallow surge]

Thats all you can get then, go get metals

[dusky widget]

it's not like i'm not trying 😭

i already found tin and iron deposits

[glossy oracle]

Or get gears and buy from traders?

[dusky widget]

but still only surface copper

[glossy oracle]

you could just buy blackguard armor parts

if you have luxury trader i think he also sells forlorn

it's damaged but still good protection

but if you have tin?

why not make tinbronze and iron?

like worst case you just pan 20 nuggets make copper and then tinbronze

[dusky widget]

nah, i have tin bronze, but i dont want to rush the iron anyway

[glossy oracle]

??? Then this whole ordeal is pointless?

Make leather armor?

You got a saw

[lyric marsh]

bronze chain is good

[glossy oracle]

Or that how usefull is scale anyway never used it but is it worth getting over brigandine tho?

[lyric marsh]

significantly lighter and cheap as an all rounder

[glossy oracle]

I see mh I guess if you dont have much leather mhh you do save yourself the chainmail I guess it's a good thing to do as a bridge between tinbronze and iron

[lyric marsh]

chain armor is really cheap btw

chains have a different recipe from vanilla

they give you 4 at once

[dusky widget]

i mean, its not like i dont want metal armour, i just dont have materials for it currently

[lyric marsh]

so get your smithing slave ready or if you don't have one work metal for a few minutes

[dusky widget]

interesting ore gen is brutal sometimes xddd

[lyric marsh]

12 ingots for full set

you can def make a helmet or pants

[dusky widget]

:')

[lyric marsh]

so what do you not have any material

[dusky widget]

thats literally all i have XD

[lyric marsh]

oh smithingplus

[glossy oracle]

how is it brutal if you just gotta find 1 vein and your settled for life

[lyric marsh]

that'll let you ride out quite a bit

[glossy oracle]

Just get the iron

[lyric marsh]

just go get a tiny bit of cassiterite and you'll never run out

[glossy oracle]

and be done or just dont cry that you dont have enough tinbronze

[dusky widget]

you gotta find it first

[glossy oracle]

thats very easy

compared to vanilla but hey

just get iron and get your armor this no need to do anything else tbh

or next time you play just reduce the ore gen if you dont want to "rush" it

[lyric marsh]

iron rushing is boring

makes the game too easy too fast

i like to cavemaxx

[glossy oracle]

For that you have world gen settings

but he plays with interesting ore gen which throws trillion of ore at your face.

Which is per se fine if you use reduced nuggets count etc

[lyric marsh]

no idea never used that

[glossy oracle]

average ore vein size

enough for a lifetime many times

[lyric marsh]

seems like normal vs to me

[glossy oracle]

nah not really

Either way vanilla with 100% ore deposits is to much too arguably

So best way to go against ore progression is to tweak ore gen on world creation and reduce nuggets for each quality of ore

[lyric marsh]

wait that's all metal?

looks like a cave to me

[glossy oracle]

poor = 1 medium = 2 = rich = 3 bountifull = 4

yes I like the mod for the more advanterous mining projects

but you gotta tweak the amount which you can

so those huge mines are more spread and less Op

Cool way to play and make outposts for each big Mine

Get the xray mod and interesting ore gen and play around with it

[mystic arrow]

Make the reed and fur gambeson

All you need is bones for the sewing kit

And 4 flax fibers

[lyric marsh]

that's tailor only

needs copper by default

which isn't really an issue here

[fallow surge]

Thouse are not all veins by caves?

Dont tell me these are ore veins...

[fallow surge]

What mod does this?

[glossy oracle]

Those are ores which spawn in a loose connectional network not defined by caves their inside solid rock https://mods.vintagestory.at/interestingoregen

It tweaks cave in mechanics now better than it used to do so lol, you could break the grond and the ceiiling comes down. Now it works similiar to vanilla cave ins with the change that fallen rock is "gravel" imitating shattered rocks.

It is by margin a lot more ore than vanilla I am pretty sure at least. So it's really necessary if you want to have a more balanced gameplay experience reduced ore drops / reduced nuggets based on quality. The nice thing is also those veins generate with mixed quality or mixed metal types within another metal. Makes it a little spicier

Just like irl some ores are found together with other ones.

[scenic arrow]

It is the same ore in vanilla, but isntead of you looking only in the area with the most veins, the major veins incorporate the ores of all veins, making it much larger and morr accessible, i recomend reduxing ore gen tbh

[glossy oracle]

It is not the same ore amount just go into the blockvoverlay in vanilla you'd miss 1 vein but with this mod you find all.

and it's a lot more accessible

[scenic arrow]

Exactly what i said

[glossy oracle]

but just compare it to vanilla with blockeroverlay it is at least 3x the amount

well your main statement is it's the same as vanilla which is inherently wrong.

As you stated I was wrong that this mod makes it a lot more ore

[scenic arrow]

The same amount

I am sleepy

[glossy oracle]

I doubt it still as it has different layers of ore and mixed ores

it can't be the same by defintion as it is 1 vein vs vanilla multiples veins

[scenic arrow]

Well go test it then

[glossy oracle]

which first you have to find and get

I did

and when I compare what I see number wise and what I know I would get in vanilla and find

it's a huge difference

[scenic arrow]

Fair

[glossy oracle]

So in vanilla finding 1 ore vein is like a god gift but it also depends on worldgen settings I never played 100% always 20%

[dusk nacelle]

All vanilla ore generates in flat discs

[glossy oracle]

and by comparision if lowered both to low values the interesting veins are bigger as it's just 1 vein by the logic unlike the vanilla ones where 1 vein disc is just one chance

[dusk nacelle]

Interesting ore gen applies “veins/tubes” which isn’t as terribly realistic

[dusk nacelle]

Iron vanilla ore can generate in clumps of 2.5k blocks so idk if the interesting veins are actually bigger

[glossy oracle]

Can up to but interesting ore gen spawns by margin a lot more

it's by design

another preview from the mod itself but you get my drift?

It's all centralized and inherintly a lot more than vanilla ore gen

in vanilla you'd have something similiar to the top left of the image

[gentle bane]

isn't this #1260976245374582886?

[lyric marsh]

combat overhaul is an anagram of ore discussion

[glossy oracle]

Maltiez asked what mod it is

also it's the context of the guy before talking about which armor etc

[tribal mist]

No, this is Patrick

[scenic arrow]

Isnt it an instrument?

Aleo

How could i configure a specific armor debuffs or a set of armors, i disagree with the philosophy thwt brigandine is as heavy and as emcubering as plate and would like to change it,

[wary swift]

Go into the patches/files and change the stats.

Can use the already existing patch mods if you're on the version of co that's compatible with them, iuno if they would still be after the armour/damage tier redefinitions.

[scenic arrow]

The current patch mods also change stuff i dont want to change

[wary swift]

Though, could probably still get them and use them as the core of the patch, and just change to new values.

[wary swift]

Open them, rip out what you don't want.

[scenic arrow]

Im looking into patchmqking to start modding so i dont mind

[wary swift]

There's just json patches for most of that.
If not all.

[scenic arrow]

I Will look into it

Thank you

[wary swift]

It's much faster to delete than to copy-paste -> change or add everything from nothing.

[scenic arrow]

Laat question

Ehat can o use to open json?

[wary swift]

Notepad.
Notepad ++.
Vi, vim, neovim.
Emacs.
Nano.
Any modern ide.

[scenic arrow]

I was using a shitty browser page to just adjust some stuff qnd it gave me aids

[scenic arrow]

Okay

[wary swift]

Other options are, of course, available.

I use notepad++, it is good enough and fast enough, doesn't nag me about updates, accounts, has ability to open files in different tabs and do multi-document operations.

[scenic arrow]

Okay

Thank you very much

[wary swift]

Also, if you're not already, use 7zip for the archives, not winrar or windows explorer.
It lets you update files when they're still inside the archive without repacking.

Caveats, however:
You have to keep the folder with the file you're changing open until you save the file.
You have to close the whole editor, not just the tab inside it (tested with notepad++ and vscode, maybe there's something that works with just the tab change).

[scenic arrow]

Hmm

Okay

[willow hemlock]

Is the steel poleaxe classified as an axe by mistake?

It's functionally the same as a halberd

Except that you can block with it instead of being able to adjust grip length

[gentle dock]

if we're gonna change it then it should just be given it's own role as a polearm

[lyric marsh]

you wanna make hunter even stronger?

[tribal mist]

You wanna make malefactor even weaker?

[lyric marsh]

malefactor is good

[tribal mist]

outside of combat, yes

[lyric marsh]

less damage to head, sling (actually good), clubs/maces, axes

[lyric marsh]

those are actually the ones that don't matter

malefactor's default perks are laughably negligible

the only things worth noting is sometimes you get two shrooms instead of one and have a chance to pick up vessels

[willow hemlock]

If that's the reasoning behind it then it makes sense, but it's an inconsistent classification

[lyric marsh]

is it more pole than an axe? or is it more axe than a pole? that is the question

[fallow surge]

poleAXE being axe is inconsistent?

[crystal depot]

POLEaxe not being polearm?

shrug

[lyric marsh]

and so, politics were invented

[fallow surge]

there is no polearm proficiency

[crystal depot]

sensible, then.

[willow hemlock]

With a spike on the tip, hammer on one side and blade on the other, it's most definitely more halberd than axe

considering polearm proficiency isn't a thing

[fallow surge]

First of all, halberd and poleaxe irl are used very differently

Different grip and different way of handling, so there is zero reason to mark poleaxe as halberd

Then it is axe with spike and hammer, seems like axe proficiency is perfectly fine

[hexed musk]

@fallow surge crash log

[fallow surge]

So?

I mean, I know exactly what is the reason here, just by chance, but just sending crashlog with words "crash log" is not a report. You need to at least provide context

[hexed musk]

well, I was crafting a chest. Had other crashes like those, at seemly random moments while doing random things like walking or placing blocks

I cannot see any kind of pattern

[slim inlet]

isn't it the meteoricsteelcompat mod again?

[fallow surge]

Openning handbook?

[fallow surge]

Yes

[hexed musk]

no

opening the handbook does not guarantee crashes

[hexed musk]

is there a list of imcompatible mods/stuff to avoid somewhere else ?

[fallow surge]

this one is the only known

ok, also kemono is incompatible

[slim inlet]

Kemono isnt compatible with much anyways

[crystal depot]

I started watching my client-log in a powershell window while I play to see if I could find the cause of some occasional client-side hitching and weridness (probably from other mods).

In doing so, noticed there are a couple repeating lines about CO's colliders -- but everything seems fine (and doesn't seem related to the lag spikes I see). One mentions drifter arms, and I've encountered drifters since without any issues. So, if it's a bug seems to be a minor one.

[lyric marsh]

using simple crossbow makes me wanna use javelins instead

it's understandably underwhelming, but with javelins being a much more viable alternative for midrange piercing damage it's outclassed

[crystal depot]

Slings

oh, piercing

[lyric marsh]

i'm at iron and waiting for my traders to give me a trade for the composite prod lmao

so i tried to make it work with iron bolts

but then again, it is just a simple bow with wood and a bone tied to it

that gets outclassed fast too

[crystal depot]

I constantly forget about the traders

[lyric marsh]

i forget about them unless i need something from them

or have shit to sell

[crystal depot]

don't even think to check them when I'm trying to produce something

[fallow surge]

It is meant for stone age only

[crystal depot]

I tend to avoid drifters and haven't done much caving yet so I'd need to start farming stuff to sell them to generate gears

[lyric marsh]

ye olde war club is good enough for the surface varieties

and the caveman shields which are very strong for their tier

[crystal depot]

yeah, I can kill them easily enough

[willow hemlock]

I'd still argue that's basically what a halberd is but fair enough, i'll just change the proficiency in my own game and be done with it

[crystal depot]

just haven't made much of an effort

doesn't the halberd have a hook where the hammer is on a regular poleaxe?

that's what I remember from D&D anyway, lol

[willow hemlock]

usually yes, but that's mostly because the halberd is forged in one piece while the poleaxe has the benefit of modularity

[fallow surge]

Poleaxe is short polearm used in primarily with wide middle grip in close combat with elements of grappling, halberd is long polearm used in formations with short end grip with tactics "slash and thrust". These two weapons are very different. I have no idea why one can consider poleaxe a halberd

[lyric marsh]

blame dark souls

any long stick with a blade at the end is a halberd

[thick aurora]

sorry to chat here, seems there is no post about tools animation. Will it get updates for shovel and pros pick? thanks

[fallow surge]

Nope, at least not in near future

I tried making animation for shovel - I cant make it look good

[thick aurora]

okay, thanks!

[lyric marsh]

reminds me imma try the tool anims mod again

[scenic arrow]

Someone should make a kemono compat with everything just to troll kemono dev

[fallow surge]

Thats a huge amount of work for "just to troll"

But you can try

[scenic arrow]

Will go in my "maybe one day when i feel like starting it" bins

[crystal depot]

how would that be a troll?

rather than just a lot of unpaid labor

I have drastically improved the appeal of your mod. Take that!

[scenic arrow]

I think something along the lines that he has refused to do it, so i just think he has beef with CO, so it would be funny to make both work together

[crystal depot]

ah

still

[fallow surge]

Typo

Bug*

[crystal depot]

Bell Ram

[lyric marsh]

*from a steel weapon

[willow hemlock]

poleaxe proficiency!

well played

[scenic arrow]

GET OUT OF MY HEADGETOUTOFMYHEADGETOUTOFMYHEAD

[ebon rune]

typo?

[fallow surge]

yes

[inner canopy]

my logs are dying, over and over and over and over

[glossy axle]

idk whats causing me to insta crash :c
its gotta be a conflict, but i dont know what mod is causing it. in creative i typed in mete- and then crash. idk if its meteoric iron is beautiful, idk if its meteoric steel, or some other armor or weapons mod, but it happens when i look up all recepies for armor, leather, and i guess meteoric

[slim inlet]

It's seems to be once again meteoricsteelcompat which seems to be incompatible

[glossy axle]

i just typed st and it crashed

meteoric steel compat?

do i have to uninstall meteoric steel? :C

[slim inlet]

All I know is that it's incompatible with Combat Overhaul Armory

[glossy axle]

ghh..

will it eventually be fixed or is this mod no longer being worked on

[slim inlet]

Ask the meteoricsteelcompat author

[next wasp]

the compat is not compating

[glossy axle]

i forgor that the meteoric steel and the meteoric steel compatibilaty mod are different mods

[glossy axle]

eyuh...

sad..

@royal spindle
i looked at the vs mod page for it and they said it was okay to ping them

[royal spindle]

yeah it looks like combat overhaul updated and moved some files around

haven't had time to fix it yet

[glossy axle]

agh, okeeh

feel free to rumadge through my crash report, hope it helps!

[royal spindle]

fixed the crashes, update will go up tonight probably, fixing a few other things and finishing support for some forgotten armory sets

[crystal depot]

https://dparker.org/cthugha/ btw

ancient music visualizer

[glossy axle]

SWEEEETT! YOURE LEGEND

[warm mural]

@fallow surge We are noticing that Clients are getting cpu Pegged with CO when They are taking damage or another player is taking damage.

Process to replicate :

1. Equip Steel armour set, Chain and Gambison.
2. Jump in a pit of Bed of nails or anything that constantly issues damage.
3. Watch 1 logical Core max out on your CPU.
4. Server will be unfazed.

If there is a better way to report this issue, do let me know. I tried going to your Github https://github.com/maltiez2/CombatOverhaul but there is no issues page.

[fallow surge]

Send client-main logs after reproducing the issue

[fallow surge]

Also it is probably cause of retesselation, and with PML retesselation is more costly, and with CO you have more stuff to retesselate cuase you have more items on you

Though, it needs to be measured

[warm mural]

Had one other person jump in a pit as well Was able to get down to 7fps in this test but in our earlier test we had it seconds per frame with roughly 10 people in a pit.

[fallow surge]

Update all mods to latest version, and then try to reproduce again

And I mean all mods (may be except for worldgen)

[warm mural]

Ill do it with minimum mods, Primative survival and CO.

(primative just so i can have the bed of nails)

[crystal depot]

you've got client mods registering network channels the server doesn't know what to do with and a VOIP system talking about 'source Invalid Name'

[warm mural]

Yep will test with all those mods gone

Litterly making a clean enviroment.

[crystal depot]

just a hunch, but malfunctioning VOIP can generate a lot of traffic than can make other stuff fall over that's trying to use the same port

[dusk nacelle]

Try lava or boiling water if you need a vanilla method

[warm mural]

Doing it in a single player world I was only able to cap out at 23% CPU with just CO using Boiling water. but not sure if boiling water used armour since it took no damage?

Correct Doing it agian with Bed of Nails I get pegged up to 66% with 1 person.

[fallow surge]

test with bed'o'nails then

[warm mural]

Agian 66% CPU with one person in bed of nails. Frame rate spikes down to sub 15.

[fallow surge]

Now do exactly the same but without CO

dont forget to restart the game

[warm mural]

Alright will do.

NO CO, Bed of Nails test : CPU Max was 31%, Frame rate spikes much-less frequent as low as 36fps,

[fallow surge]

Ok, I will look into it more closely

[kind epoch]

I have noticed this as well. Playing a UPNP server with some friends & my 7800x3d is getting 1 core heavy load with a noticeable increase during a temporal storm when we were out fighting

[turbid pilot]

What does the new "knightly" weapon proficiency do? I do not see any class give a bonus to it

[lyric marsh]

probably human mod

[placid tartan]

Be nice if successful parrying set the opponents attack on a slight delay

[tranquil onyx]

Enemies already have attack cool-downs, and parrying already improves your defence against all parts of body that can be attacked, so what would that be for?

[placid tartan]

Player attack speeds are augmented by affinity.

[slim inlet]

I don't see the point in stunlocking/delaying the attack of enemies if the player already have faster attack speed most of the time
Usually a shield or longsword/greatsword block is (was) good to just deny most drifter attacks anyways

[placid tartan]

...

I never once said anything about hostile mobs.

[slim inlet]

Oh PvP? Yeah CO isn't made for PvP

[placid tartan]

Thats very odd.

[tranquil onyx]

I’d assumed you were typing about PvE, so fair. IDK what Maltiez’s take is on PvP, so I will leave it there.

[slate valve]

Maltiez has repeteadly said PvP is out of scope

[lyric marsh]

just because co accounts for pvp doesn't mean it's balanced for it