Combat Overhaul

[final garden]

That's what my archer brother does

[gentle dock]

scale needs a rework so i dont mind

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I don’t mind scale being reconfigured

[final garden]

I agree there. I never bother with scale, skip straight to plate

[gentle dock]

I just want it to be actually useful and not just as bad as scale is currently

[brave canyon]

But I don’t think we need “lighter armor”

Like, that in itself … it doesn’t make sense, lmao

[lyric marsh]

it already exists, it just doesn't work

[brave canyon]

It works fine

You just hate bears

[lyric marsh]

demonstrably untrue

[brave canyon]

Which, sure, valid to your play style

[gentle dock]

if you want bear-proof armour then wear heavy armor

[final garden]

Typically my journey goes wood brigandine -> (wait until I have iron) -> Iron plate

[brave canyon]

Me and my friends actually just had fun with it all.

We just piecemealed whatever we liked, haha

And when we had iron, we slowly upgraded armor parts

We chose based on like, looks more then anything hah.

[final garden]

Though I'm really bad for skipping steps. I don't make metal unless it can be bronze. That includes my very first tools

[brave canyon]

Like, I was sorta more ranged, so I had a light helmet, and then heavy armor I left on a stand for when I needed to fight

So I usually ran around with just my helmet and a Gambeson on

When a storm brewed, slap on the full kit and hoo yeah it was fun

We even had Rust and Rot that I patched up a bit to make it function in v20

[final garden]

Most of the time I just wear whatever cheap gear I can get before. So, think furs and hides

[brave canyon]

Yeah.

[final garden]

Beat things with the biggest club and spear I can make

[brave canyon]

I never had an armor problem. It’s mainly a skill issue if bears are a problem - and they are rare as is really

If you set up next to their spawn, that’s unfortunate haha

The yearly bear murder will happen :P

[solid mist]

does Xskill affect firearms from the firearms mod?

[umbral spoke]

Yes, the combat skill that affects bow damage will also affect firearms and crossbows.

[solid mist]

thanks!

[umbral spoke]

On the xskills mod page I think it mentions it

[subtle swan]

Hey is the only way to make a poleaxe with steel?

[quiet skiff]

Couldnt you stop armor juggling by having armor take some time/ animation to equip? or is that not feasible to code?

[earnest forge]

Could just use similar code to the new bandage cast time

[slate ermine]

should i make a copper spear as a weapon or something else

[brave canyon]

Spears are incredible weapons

Outranging your enemy is a massive advantage

[slate ermine]

i got one more ingot

so im thinking what to get

an axe or a spear

[brave canyon]

A pick for more copper :P

[slate ermine]

i alr have a pick

[brave canyon]

Do you have more copper though!

[slate ermine]

i have deposits marked

[brave canyon]

Oh okay nice, yeah you’re good then

The spear is a solid choice though.

Range is a massive advantage that easily can make the more effective damage types more dangerous to use

[slate ermine]

arent most enemies stab resistant though

[brave canyon]

Doesn’t matter if they never can get close to you to even hit or swing

[slate ermine]

bowtorns? shivers?

[earnest forge]

I'd turn it into a falx or mace so you can use a shield against mobs. Shield is incredibly powerful, even a t0 cruse shield

[brave canyon]

Sure you might kill them faster with blunt, but keeping them at range means they are as good as dead, too

[earnest forge]

Shield so you don't have to

Also bowtorns

[brave canyon]

Yeah, that works too, but you might need two ingots

[slate ermine]

is copper armor worth makin

[earnest forge]

No

[slate ermine]

even if i have this

[earnest forge]

That's not nearly enough for armor in the first place

[slate ermine]

isnt 20 = 1 ingot?

[earnest forge]

Find some tin, make bronze, update your tools, then make armor

[slate ermine]

i got 75 ingots

[slate ermine]

i have a tin deposit marked i suppose

[earnest forge]

It doesn't take a lot of tin to make tin bronze but it's way better than copper.

[rigid mortar]

Can you parry explosions

[hollow pasture]

Neither is armor?

The light shields are also fully capable of blocking

[brave canyon]

Yeah, that’s what I thought as well, haha.

I remembered the circle shields having a block and a parry.

[hollow pasture]

You most definitely can. The lightest option is to just simply not cover non-vital areas

[brave canyon]

And this was before the Tower Shield addition, but when I saw that changelog it just said it was being added as a “block only version” that’s stronger or something.

[brave canyon]

Yeah. Exactly this.

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, chromium leathers are much softer than tanned ones

[brave canyon]

So sooooo many times simply just my basic light helmet literally saved my life.

A basic copper one even

Do you know if each body part has the same chance to be hit - or is it semi scaled to the “size” of that part?

[hollow pasture]

I literally cannot understand most of your arguement. In most cases, wearing even bronze chain with a gambeson is enough to half the damage from almost every surface threat

[uneven herald]

torso most common

[brave canyon]

Okay, that’s what I thought as well.

[rigid mortar]

headshots deal bonus damage iirc

[uneven herald]

head least common but second most important to armor due to high damage received multiplier

[brave canyon]

Yeah, that’s why even my basic light helmet that only covers the Head was such a damn life saver

They had to get incredibly lucky with a rare face or neck hit

[hollow pasture]

So far I've cleared the RA with scale legs and arms with the rest as bronze plate+chain

[uneven herald]

you want face and neck too because they are subject to the head damage penalty

[hollow pasture]

Each body part has different chances that also vary based upon whether the enemy is above or below you

[uneven herald]

skimping on leg armor is kino because legs already have guaranteed damage reduction and leg armor is where the bulk of slowdown occurs

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, I almost always go without plate leg armor unless I'm doing something where I really need the extra survivability

[brave canyon]

Yeah totally fair.

[hollow pasture]

I found the table

[brave canyon]

And good, that does confirm what I was thinking was the case, thank you :P

Yeah, I really don’t understand the complaints he had at all, nor why it even necessitated entirely reworking the tiering system.

[uneven herald]

it's a valid claim

[brave canyon]

It felt like three separate complaints that would be better addressed by actually focusing on each one

[uneven herald]

the system is very feast or famine

either your armor works or doesn't work

and there's little medium where the armor helps without trivializing

but irl that's how armor works to begin with so i shrug (not necessarily a good excuse for gameplay ramifications)

[hollow pasture]

I don't really get this because of how gradual the armor damage reduction is

[tender scroll]

The chromium makes it softer and more prone to absorbing further material, which is where the wax comes in to harden and reinforce it again

[hollow pasture]

Even waxed they are normally softer than tanned/baked leathers

[brave canyon]

I never experienced this at all as well?

Like, if you piecemeal your armor together, you can pick and choose from the debuffs and buffs you need/want?

And even bronze is very good armor, but of course iron is going to be better

And you are kinda encouraged to armor up for what you plan on fighting

[hollow pasture]

Bronze plate+maille makes you pretty much safe from anything except Polar Bears

[uneven herald]

my gripe is the second you have bronze plate and a gambeson a good majority of damage taken is basically near nil and that's not really a high bar to meet

there's no granularity in the defense and it gets even further when you factor in the chainmail layer which is really easy to fill out too

[hollow pasture]

So this very clearly gradual decline in damage taken as defense increases isn't real?

[uneven herald]

reaching the right side of the chart isn't difficult

you have to try pretty hard to stay in the left side of the chart for a prolonged duration

you exist on the left and then can leap to the right

hence the lack of granularity

[hollow pasture]

So the core mechanics like obtaining materials and forging armor isn't difficult?

Or are you arguing for armor to be weaker in general?

I don't understand

[brave canyon]

It sounds like your issue is with the Vanilla tier system in general?

And not armor.

Just how it ends up being worked into CO’s armor handling

[uneven herald]

the vanilla tier system is in a worse state and co is a step in the right direction

[brave canyon]

The same kinda goes for vanilla weapons as well

[uneven herald]

it's just the current numerical balance of options still doesn't quite allow expression of granularity and impactful mix-matching

[brave canyon]

Higher tiers pierce through armor

[uneven herald]

like for example you could reduxe the layering constraints on some of the weaker armors

[brave canyon]

I mean, it sorta does. But it’s easy to defend against the basic drifters and such

[uneven herald]

especially lamellar

lamellar hogs all 3 slots

scale armor wouldn't hurt to have (minor) buffs either because of losing the access to chainmail

something to compensate for its occupation of two whole layers

[hollow pasture]

And with the least penalties of all in total it offers balanced early defense against surface drifters and halves damage from wolves

Also, bronze scale armor with a standard gambeson is enough to turn a lethal 15 damage hit from a brown bear into a 6 damage hit

[slate ermine]

@earnest forge i obtianed bronze whbat now

[lyric marsh]

unless you meet a bear

then you are guaranteed to die (again, ignoring the passivity bug)

which is the POINT i was making

lower tier threats mattering too little and higher tier threats being way too powerful (until you get heavy iron/steel and become immortal)

[hollow pasture]

If it allows you to avoid enough damage to get multiple hits in, the bear will run away

[lyric marsh]

no

try running away from a bear

it will attack indefinitely

[hollow pasture]

I mean the bear runs away after hitting it enough times

[lyric marsh]

it deaggroing is a bug

i can prove it

try this

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1422547858782949406

[lyric marsh]

ah yes just deal 50 damage to the bear within 10 seconds

[hollow pasture]

Not unheard of

[lyric marsh]

in multiplayer or guns, but that should not be the only approach to surface

the only way one player can do that much damage that quickly is a musket

light armor currently in that situation only drags you DOWN

making its existence more than questionable

a retier simply fixes this without trivializing anything

new scale in a brown bear encounter:
copper - you have a chance to survive
bronze - you have a slightly bigger chance to survive
iron- you will very likely survive
steel - you will survive

[lyric marsh]

scale could be reworked into a middle layer, but my immediate concern with that is that it would make plate even harder to balance

[hollow pasture]

10 seconds is a lot of time to deal damage 🤣

[lyric marsh]

not nearly enough to make a bear run away

especially accounting for the armor you're wearing

[gentle dock]

yeah a blackguard with a falx can do 50+ damage to a bear with an iron falx in 10 seconds

[lyric marsh]

blackguard

[gentle dock]

anyone can do 50 damage to a bear with a steel falx then

[lyric marsh]

bears only run away on their very last legs, and most players will simply be unable to get there in that time

[hollow pasture]

I'll get on later tomorrow and do some practical testing just to throw it out there that the armor you wear, even if relatively low tier/type, can make significant difference

[gentle dock]

and this isnt getting into how headshots do more damage so it's probably less

[lyric marsh]

furthering my point that intermediates are simply worthless

iron is when you completely overcome the challenge and start becoming invincible

[gentle dock]

use a lower tier spear then

[lyric marsh]

and by steel plate, you're invincible to everything

[gentle dock]

be a hunter or clockmaker and backpedal away from everything

[lyric marsh]

try it

brown bear outruns fleetfooted

let alone stock

[gentle dock]

it doesnt

[lyric marsh]

it does

[gentle dock]

they're tied

[lyric marsh]

try it in superflat

it's the exact same speed, BUT it also lunges which makes it catch up

[gentle dock]

it only lunges when in attack range

[lyric marsh]

you're ignoring the fact fleetfooted isn't the default

[gentle dock]

I dont care if you forgot to pick a good class

[lyric marsh]

i cannot find any other way to put this so i will reiterate

in current co, a brown bear is effectively a superior endgame shiver that spawns on the surface

[gentle dock]

good skillcheck then

[brave canyon]

Yeah, a bear is meant to be a challenge.

[slate valve]

why is this bad?

[gentle dock]

Lol, lmao even

[lyric marsh]

doesn't constantly make passive audio to announce its presence, does not have random downtime (shivers' seizure), and let's just pretend the doublehit is fixed

[brave canyon]

It’s a skill issue if that’s utterly game breaking for you, but I don’t think the base mod should be balanced around that.

[lyric marsh]

because it emulsifies the entire game into one thing

[brave canyon]

The vanilla intention of bears and wolves is that they are supposed to be a scary threat.

[lyric marsh]

roaming the surface is theoretically as dangerous as mining at y15

that's stupid

[brave canyon]

Then address it in a separate mod.

[gentle dock]

Going into forests stupidly*

[hollow pasture]

I was surprised the bear didn't pull away after a little bit

[slate valve]

I don't think it's stupid

[gentle dock]

the flee chance is random

[brave canyon]

If that’s your issue, then address it at its core

[lyric marsh]

and that's what alienates people from co

[brave canyon]

Not demanding a mod rebalance

It’s not a CO issue!

[lyric marsh]

people want better combat, doesn't mean they want to make vs a combat game

[gentle dock]

who the fuck cares?

[brave canyon]

You just admitted that!

[gentle dock]

a mod for everyone is a mod for no one

[slate valve]

Well... I don't. I installed the combat mod to make vs a combat game

[lyric marsh]

i am speaking for others, not myself

[slate valve]

I like the way it is

I like that bears are a big threat, just like in real life

[brave canyon]

Then let those people speak for themselves

[lyric marsh]

everyone i have talked to who has tried co but doesn't always play with it has told me these exact points

and i see it time and time again

[slate valve]

what points? that bears are too dangerous?

[brave canyon]

The Bear issue is a Vanilla Issue

[lyric marsh]

in discussion and practice

[lyric marsh]

no

[brave canyon]

Yes.

[lyric marsh]

tier 2 armor makes you safe against them

dude have you even played vanilla?

[brave canyon]

Yes!

[lyric marsh]

try bronze armor against a bear

vanilla, then co

[brave canyon]

That isnt what matters, the intended game design of the bears and wolves is that they are a natural threat in forests and such that you have to watch out for.

[lyric marsh]

and they are balanced to be a threat for midgame

[brave canyon]

It’s why you see so many people freaking out when they realize they were right next to one this whole time

[lyric marsh]

where you overcome that threat and the new threats become story and deep caving, or storms

co currently completely lacks such distinction

[brave canyon]

Untrue. It changes it.

Higher tiers penetrate lower tier armor easier.

[lyric marsh]

and my changes nullify that how exactly?

[brave canyon]

Because as you’ve stated you want to make them a non-threat?!

[lyric marsh]

dude..

[brave canyon]

Your whole point returns to your claim you “want the surface to be safe” when you have any amount of armor.

[gentle dock]

if they cant do something as basic as walk backwards and hold M1 then I dont think any amount of babyproofing will help them

[brave canyon]

You’ve restated it so many times

[lyric marsh]

i want to add meaningful progression difference for interacting with them, instead of them being impossible and then suddenly becoming completely trivial once you hit iron

because that is current co

rush iron, game becomes easy

that's the progression

[brave canyon]

They are far from impossible…

[lyric marsh]

look at the chart dude.

[brave canyon]

Your chart doesn’t matter.

[lyric marsh]

i am feeling like i'm losing my mind

[brave canyon]

I can outrange a bear and keep it at range until it’s dead

Use a spear or a long weapon

[gentle dock]

your argument is just make the surface safer smh

[lyric marsh]

safer at a certain progression tier**

not iron like the rest of the game

there's no dynamic

[brave canyon]

Iron isn’t the end all be all…

[lyric marsh]

it is

[brave canyon]

It quite literally isn’t

[lyric marsh]

iron makes the game easy, steel makes you immortal

[gentle dock]

@lyric marsh I feel pretty safe when I can do this to a brown bear with no armour and a bronze spear

[lyric marsh]

just be hunter and use a pike with proficiency broh

[tender scroll]

Make the surface utter dog ass to live in, force everyone back underground like it's the beginning of the Rot all over again

[gentle dock]

you can be a clockmaker as well

DPS doesnt matter since you're never gonna get hit if you're not bad

[brave canyon]

Exactly

[lyric marsh]

it's not a matter of being bad

[gentle dock]

it is

[lyric marsh]

i have hundreds of hours in this game

[brave canyon]

It literally is, yes haha

[lyric marsh]

i can see through it at this point

which is why i notice things

[gentle dock]

I noticed that you keep trying to detract the argument to "iron is OP" rather than just saying you hate that bronze cant make you immortal against bears

[brave canyon]

Yeah.

[lyric marsh]

the point is making a progression curve

instead of a progression cliff

[brave canyon]

The curve is there.

[gentle dock]

Learn to parry then

[lyric marsh]

the game is almost a complete flatline until iron where it flies off

[brave canyon]

I’m not sure what world you are playing on with bears dotting the world every 50 blocks cause I’ve never seen one

[lyric marsh]

the only thing vanilla does right is have a progression curve

[brave canyon]

Bears are a rare threat. They should remain scary for a good while.

Vanilla has less of a curve with your arguments, cause you’ve said that you want Bronze to make you able to tank a bear no problem.

[gentle dock]

vanilla has tier 2 armour and then iron. steel isnt needed for any of the story locations

[lyric marsh]

doesn't change the fact that if you see one without iron armor that's just you being cheated into a trip back for your inventory

the stakes are completely missing

[gentle dock]

if you see a bear then leave

[brave canyon]

If you see the bear and - yeah.

[lyric marsh]

if you see a bear in the distance

[brave canyon]

If you see it and then die to it afterwards that’s your fault

[lyric marsh]

but many times you hear a sound that already signifies it's too late

[brave canyon]

Then grab a mod that makes them make sound

[gentle dock]

stop going into forests expecting there to be no bears

[lyric marsh]

that's sidestepping the issue!

[brave canyon]

No it’s not!

[lyric marsh]

i'm seriously done talking to you two

[brave canyon]

It’s addressing it at its core!

You are the one sidestepping it hardcore, like damn

[gentle dock]

then stop using CO

[coarse prism]

people have problems with bears? I just javelin them to death no armor required

[brave canyon]

Yeah…

They are a threat that needs to be approached in a different way from your basic Drifter.

Or just find a better way of general combat that you enjoy that is effective for more things.

[coarse prism]

it's also fun to hunt them with a longbow

[gentle dock]

"work smarter, not harder"

[brave canyon]

It’s a good thing that bears are a more consistent threat. That makes things less homogeneous overall, and encourages trying out new approaches and new tools.

[coarse prism]

entire hotbar of bronze javelins vs 1 fuzzy deathball

[gentle dock]

if you live in an area with a lot of bears then building deep bear pits is a viable strategy for dealing with them everytime they respawn

[brave canyon]

I think those proposed changes would just more end up making things even less interesting and less of a curve. Get any armor, now all the surface threats are null. It’s … not so much an adding curve but just flattening it overall.

[slate valve]

tin bronze heavy shield completely blocks brown bears attacks btw

[brave canyon]

Currently, get bronze armor? Bears and wolves still can pose a threat, but it’s significantly easier to handle them than compared to unarmored.

Yeah, exactly.

You can also approach it intelligently as well, and tackle it in a different way.

Instead of just… run straight in and tank hit after hit while hitting it.

And with bronze armor, surface drifters don’t really frighten you too much, either.

It’s more of a curve when less things are instantly negated by a single piece of armor.

I think the whole demanding to look at the chart is disingenuous since you never just encounter a bear in a vacuum like that. Nor should you, you kinda already fucked up at that point if you are.

[gentle dock]

two-handed weapons that can block while attacking are very strong if you like to tank bears

[coarse prism]

I actually tested this and didn't find this to be the case, I don't know if I'm doing something wrong but I always took the full brunt

[slate valve]

let me load up the game and record it

[brave canyon]

And I dunno what he’s saying that Iron makes you invincible like man, I put on my Iron armor for a storm and still get scared by the nastier ones that spawn more Nightmares and the nastier end.

The high-end Bowtorn? Terrifying still. Even in melee, like oh god

[gentle dock]

bowtorn are nasty in tight corridors

they have pretty long reach for their attacks and do a decent chunk of damage

[brave canyon]

Oh yeah.

Like with my iron armor, I’m no combat god, but I understand what are still threats and what I can chop down.

Surface and one tier up from that? Not really scary. Kinda dies in a hit or two.

Anything above that? Gotta think a tiny bit, and the later end is actually a threat if not considered highly.

[gentle dock]

I think what happened was the bear clipped behind you and thus managed to get a hit in

[coarse prism]

huh

[gentle dock]

This happens in this clip where I make a fuckup and get hit by the full force of the bear (I'm wearing regular gambeson body, iron brig arms/hands and tin chain arms/hands only

[brave canyon]

Yeah… we tried to mention shields and blocking is a viable tactic, but he insisted on saying “it shouldn’t be mandatory”

It’s all about varying up your approach and tactics for your enemy, but it sounds like he kinda wants to homogenize things to be a be-all-end-all approach

Which, fair? But like, isn’t that exactly why we have CO to begin with?

[slate valve]

As an aside, I really hate how the bear clips into the player when the player is blocking

[brave canyon]

Yeah, that’s probably just Vanilla. I think it’s trying to get it’s core entity kinda right there against you as it’s attacking

But because of the actual hitbox to attacks, and that being forward to account for posture and the swing and everything, it’s kinda… ahead of the bear

When it’s just the Hitscan vanilla stuff it makes no difference, but yeah

It might be a possible fix to increase how “big” the bear entity sees itself…? I’m entirely unsure if that’s even a thing, but I’d at least investigate there.

[lyric marsh]

when i want exactly the opposite, i want dynamics, i don't want to make the game easy

[lyric marsh]

we have co because vanilla's combat implementation is pretty objectively horrible

but the one thing it does right for the game it is is its progression balancing

[brave canyon]

Oh boy here we go again

[lyric marsh]

nah i meant what i said

[brave canyon]

Your changes are inconsistent and disingenuous. Your complaints end up being like, you want to charge a bear and be able to just stand there and trade blows without any action on your part other then just left clicking to hit the bear back.

If you encounter a bear in a vacuum like that, hell, any combat encounter even, you already fucked up and made a mistake.

It’s not fair at all to balance any of it around that idea. Because CO adds tactics and thought behind it all, if you don’t use the tools available to you, that’s a skill issue.

None of it is mandatory, but omitting it all flat out is entirely disingenuous to the mod as a whole, and makes for an awful patch to balance around.

And yeah, as a result, your changes make things more homogenous. There’s even less of a reason to approach things a different way or actually put thought into your combat if you can just stand and trade blows.

It’s removing an element of the curve to remove the bear threat as early as having bronze armor, not expanding on it.

[fallow surge]

Tyron specifically wrote entities collision code to make them "soft", so entities can easily clip into each other. Thats one of the problem. And because of that collisions with terrain are still "hard" you cant increase collisions box size.
And I dont think there are any plans to fix this clipping issue in vanilla. Consider it to be a feature of vanilla.

We tried to mitigate these problems in case of wolves, by moving wolf model back a bit, it made it better, but still have'n solved the problem.

[fallow surge]

There are two problems that I think are objective: scale armor is not very viable, and high tier armor makes you too hard to kill.
I'm open to suggestions how to fix these issues in another way.

Nothing is decided yet. The only change so far: I added 8 sec grace period to second chance to mitigate ppls aversion to risk

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I agree there.

[lyric marsh]

i think it should be 5s

[brave canyon]

Scale armor could use retweaking indeed

[fallow surge]

I tested 3 and 5 sec... Monsters are barely able to make a second attack before timer runs out

[lyric marsh]

my initial suggestion was in fact giving bronze+ scale a one point boost for slashing

but it spiraled from there to a complete retiering of armor

[fallow surge]

Complete retiering is still an option

[brave canyon]

I don’t think it’s needed honestly.

[lyric marsh]

i'm not against that, allows finer balance and makes t gamb slightly less op

[brave canyon]

What about something like… an armor exhaustion or something? As in, you take repeated hits over a short period, and they become more and more effective.

A hit can refresh the timer to max again, and add a stack

[lyric marsh]

too contextual and would generally encourage coward strats

[brave canyon]

So if you are good at blocking and not just tanking hits, you can mitigate this with skill, or simply not taking hits in the first place.

[lyric marsh]

the bad ones

[brave canyon]

I’m not talking to you, Bolotnik.

[fallow surge]

I dont think armor needs this mechanic. Shields though, there need to be something

[brave canyon]

Could have repeated hits eventually breaks your guard then?

[lyric marsh]

but also consider that large shields already make you a sitting duck, adding guardbreaks would make them significantly less viable

maybe chip damage is the way to go

[brave canyon]

I guess I’m not sure where you see the problem with stronger armors, then. Cause I worry like, if Steel armor can’t protect you against the lesser threats, then it’s going to be a case of ‘why bother with steel armor if it’s not that much better over Bronze’. There kinda needs to be something else based on the armor tiers that can scale up one way or another. Hence the idea of like, building up damage from repeated hits.

Steel could tank more repeated hits, bronze less, adds an element of scaling to it, then it would also go in hand with a slight nerf to the Steel armor stats, or the tiering some.

[lyric marsh]

the problem is that the endgame armor makes you objectively immortal

[brave canyon]

… and that’s why I’m offering this idea.

You simply are not immortal if you have 4 or 5 drifters hitting you and it’s actually building up damage to the point of the armor not negating anything.

[lyric marsh]

changing damage calculation is a more reasonable idea

if you look at the spreadsheet, the final armor tier takes no damage from all damage tiers

it's not a balancing issue, it's a mathematical issue

and that is exactly what i was saying by the progression curve actually being a progression cliff

iron completely drops it off and steel kills it

[brave canyon]

You really do not read everything I said, do you.

[lyric marsh]

i don't agree with your suggestion

making defense rely on the frequency of attacks, in co, which gives you crowd control, isn't reasonable

[brave canyon]

How is it not? If you can crowd control, then you are avoiding hits in the first place. That doesn’t even matter here.

That doesn’t even play into any of it even.

[lyric marsh]

if you have 4 or 5 drifters hitting you and it’s actually building up damage to the point of the armor not negating anything

[brave canyon]

Yes.

You need to get hit to take damage

If you crowd control so well that you never get hit at all… armor literally doesn’t matter

[lyric marsh]

that would need a redesign of the game from the ground up

the ways the enemies work

[brave canyon]

You can be naked in that scenario and it literally doesn’t change anything, hell it probably makes it easier to pull it off.

[earnest forge]

Blocking would work well with the vigor mod, just drain some stamina on a block and disable it if you bottom out

[quiet skiff]

i can confirm
I was a dummy noob doing a reverse circle to the left full sprint run, naked with a copper spear, in a flatish open cave against y15[?] drifters and it worked out surprisingly well (until it didnt)

[brave canyon]

I’m proposing that with steel armor, if you take a clean hit, there’s a timer of like, 30 seconds the stack stays on, after 30 seconds it decays by 1. Let’s say for steel it takes like 5 stacks to render your armor not so useful anymore.

[brave canyon]

Yup!

[quiet skiff]

why the character can sprint backwards is questionable tbh
mean, you kinda can irl but thats asking to take a real bad nasty trip

[brave canyon]

After 5 stacks it starts to let more and more damage through and this is where the balancing comes in, how many stacks per metal tier before it’s reduced in effectiveness, or hell, even limit it to the plate armors perhaps? Where it even has this invincibility problem in the first place

That way you can still tank an occasional hit - you still feel like the Steel armor was a worthwhile investment - but it doesn’t mean you can literally just wade through swaths of enemies

If you instead only just reduce the higher end of the armors so that they just let more damage through, it’s going to not feel so worth it in the end, especially if you then go and buff the lower end as well

I think either you need to add something else on the higher end of armors, or perhaps un-pair the whole tiered damage as a whole and make all enemies just a flat damage value and no armor pen mechanics for higher damage tiers vs lower armor tiers.

Well, to clarify that, either make all enemies deal consistent damage - the same amount across the board for each class of enemy. Drifters do 3 damage flat, always, no matter the level. And the level determines the Armor Penetration aspect it has, so Nightmare and the higher end can punch Steel, but surface cannot.

Or you instead just get rid of the armor penetration, and have enemies scale their damage upwards as they get stronger. So that higher tiers of armor give more stats -> more damage reduction as a whole

Cause I kinda think if you don’t want to add something like allowing hits in after repeated strikes, then the system is kinda just working against itself in a way, it’s compounding too many bonuses to work out, leading to that feeling of Steel being far too good.

[earnest forge]

Easier way, logarithmic damage scaling. You may not take much damage, but you will still feel it.

[fallow surge]

I want armor system to be simple. Protection tier should fully represent armor capabilities, and attack tier should fully represent anti-armor capabilities.

[quiet skiff]

so in this scenario, like... double head drifter does 3hp damage but can hit through steel?
what if you were wearing iron, would that still be 3hp damage?

[brave canyon]

Eh, it’s a rough idea and I prefer the other way around honestly. But it’s just, like… I feel like the issue lies with just the bonuses are compounding together to be just too good.

[brave canyon]

If that’s the case, then like, steel should protect against all but the scariest enemies like it does now, right?

Or should the high end of enemies have steel-equivalent damage tier?

This is kinda why I’m confused why you feel like there’s an issue, it’s … kinda conflicting with itself here? You want a simple system with an armor pen system and damage tiers, but a result of that is we need enemies that can punch through that to actually, like, not be invincible?

But the common spawns are the low tiers and everything

So until that bigger threat shows, yeah, you’ll be strong against it all?

To work with that idea of the common spawns still being a threat, I proposed the large numbers can build up and punch through the armor.

I think it kinda comes down to you gotta add something to it, or you gotta trim back the system really, especially if you see this as an issue

I personally don’t believe steel makes you invincible (except against the common enemies of course)

So I really don’t see an issue with the system as it is currently (specifically for this case of ‘Steel makes you invincible’ issue, that is! I still agree Scale Mail could be reworked.)

[quiet cradle]

^yes

[lyric marsh]

takes 0.3 damage from bellhead

i'm hurt!!!!

[brave canyon]

Wonderful, amazing, thanks for reading everything.

[fallow surge]

Please stop

Also, I have enough feedback. So this topic is over for now.

I read all messages in the thread even if I dont respond to them.

[brave canyon]

Yeah, no worries Malt. I’m just tired of him being… like that, when I’m trying to take this seriously.

[earnest sand]

Honestly the problem is squarely with vanilla, add dino mod and theres plenty of reason for steel.

[brave canyon]

Sorry if it came off as like, directed at you or anything

[earnest sand]

But unfortunately creature mods need to patch themselves indepedently of CO gor compatibility, much to my dismay all the stone age mods arent CO compatible.

[brave canyon]

I’m trying to take it all in good faith, but when anything I say gets disregarded by another party and ignored like that, it’s unbelievably frustrating.

[brave canyon]

Yeaaah… it’s well, a consequence of the whole hitboxes and everything.

[fallow surge]

FotSA should be compatible

If there are problems with it report to Tenth

[brave canyon]

It’s unfortunately impossible to have that be something solved automatically by code

Well, incredibly difficult and potentially processing intensive :P

[earnest sand]

Must be missing a dependency for FotSA then, mammoths, panthers and bovins are not being assigned resistances.

[brave canyon]

Make sure you have the up to date versions

[fallow surge]

Report to Tenth

[brave canyon]

I remember reading the changelogs that said it got updated recently?

Or- wait that might’ve been Butchery, sorry

Yeah listen to Malt on this

[earnest sand]

Anyways the hitboxes arent the issue, its the resistances when a mod doesnt have conpatibility. Mammoths do 25 dmg but with enough armor you resist everything with vanilla resistances.

[brave canyon]

Oh, yeah, that’s the other half. Like Malt said though, it’s needing to be reported.

[earnest sand]

The problem is, i dont think any of the stone age mods do have compatibility with CO, because tenth seperates so many of his mods into individual packs for file size reasons but compat isnt listed on any of the pages for any of the different packs.

VS modding is such a mess...

Meanwhile dino mods have full documentation with CO and its amazing.

[brave canyon]

Tenth has handled compat with CO

I use a good number of his mods with it no problem, so I know it’s there

[earnest sand]

But its not listed anywhere on panth, bovin or elephant. But i suspect somethings not working because mammoths are damage tier 3.

Ill leave them a comment on one of their mods, hopefully its just an outdated mod.

[brave canyon]

Just because it’s not listed on the page doesn’t mean it’s not in? And still, yeah, you need to ask him.

[earnest sand]

No documenation on mod pages regarding it though, a capital crime!!!!

[fallow surge]

Also Tenth dont have a lot of time to work on mods, so dont press them

[earnest sand]

I will ambush them within the very domicile they reside in

[brave canyon]

Oh no.

[lyric marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-jesse-pinkman-jesse-walter-white-heisenberg-gif-4141186781977446474

[echo willow]

Hey! I'm having an issue with the mod where if my friend is too far away from me, and walks even a single block, he immediately dies to fall damage

Issue is only gone when taking CO out

It's a LAN world through Hamachi

[fallow surge]

Update overhaul lib to latest version

[echo willow]

This one?

nvm im stupid

found it

I was already on latest version with the bug happening :C

[fallow surge]

try 1.11.20

[echo willow]

My friend just left so i can't test it rn, but I'll come back if the issue persists

[fallow surge]

**Updated balancing: **https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?usp=sharing
Please dont fight over it. And my openness to suggestions is limited this time.

I dropped some realism in favor of gameplay

lamellar now treated as just worse scale+jerkin
brigandine still treaeted as worse plate

I will try to delay sewn and tailored gambeson progressions to later ages

Will probably add improvised head piece

And adjust material costs

[quiet skiff]

as a layman without much any idea of what any of this means, what does this mean?
i've been trying to follow along with the discussions being had over the last day or so

[fallow surge]

In layman terms: early game armor and light/medium armor are more viable now, strong monsters now can deal more damage to players in heavy armor

Bears are less strong

[quiet skiff]

oh nice
Hope the balancing of everything works out okay.
The balancing of bears seems hard to pull off, once ended up in an area with like 5 or 6 of them within 100 blocks but I'm guessing it was because I was in some hilly area near mountains.

[fallow surge]

Though, it will take some time to implement this balancing into mod... There are a ton of values to manually change

[quiet skiff]

I saw someone complaining about armor swapping
And someone else had added onto my thought
do you think it would be possible to code or justified to make equipping or unequipping armor use a cast time, possibly reusing the bandage applying code?

you're a really cool mod dev, love all the work you pour into your mods

[fallow surge]

Probably...

[quiet skiff]

Seems like a non-issue, at least for me and my friends we never thought to "abuse" armor swapping.
been doing nothing but json configs for like the last few days and that alone has been a huge effort, i wouldnt blame you if its too much of a PITA

[lyric marsh]

no complaints here, this is pretty great (about the rebalance)

[lyric marsh]

the only part of armor that's efficient to juggle is legs

but yes i would like there to be a cooldown

co creates a higher commitment to armor (simply by the quantity of items), so this would further reinforce that

[slate ermine]

WHAT DO i make with my 13 tin bronze ingots

[lyric marsh]

sabre for style, longsword for practicality

longsword unless you're a fan of offhanding things (that aren't shields)

[slate ermine]

i alr have a longsword

[hollow pasture]

Do you already have weapons? If so then you want a helmet

[slate ermine]

i got a longsword a tin bronze pickaxe and a helmet

[hollow pasture]

Well then it's time for a cuirass!

[slate ermine]

its 8 right

[hollow pasture]

I believe so

I normally forge 3 plates and hammer the last 2 ingots out

[mighty nacelle]

congrats on getting a shoutout maltiez

[rigid mortar]

yea

[tranquil onyx]

We've also not been idle on the hiring end - we have @fallow surge helping us out in improving the mod api, we are currently in talks on getting a sysadmin on board

Sounds huuuge. Congrats, Maltiez!

Context: https://www.vintagestory.at/blog.html/news/development-update-september-2025-r425/

[eager shard]

👏👏🎉

[echo willow]

@fallow surge The fix worked! You're amazing mate, never seen any dev work this quick

wasn't expecting i'd be able to play the mod today

[gentle dock]

bellheads, gearfoots, doubleheads and sawblades remain scary even at steel.
👍 looks good

bears are weaker now so maybe bolotnik will stop dying to them in bronze armour. perhaps he'll stop bitching as well

[shut ledge]

oh nice

seems like a big win

[earnest forge]

Malt has been confirmed to have a time machine and pushes updates from the future.

[quiet skiff]

thinking on the "bear problem", now i feel like bears should have tiers as well, but I feel thats outside the scope of Combat Overhaul

[gentle dock]

a polar bear is more dangerous than a black bear if that's what you mean

[brave canyon]

Yeah, they do have tiers

Polar Bear is the highest, followed by Grizzly, then Sun/Black/Panda is the lowest

[fallow surge]

Thanks to chatgpt adjusting armor stats will be less painful
I could write scripts myself, but I'm to lazy to do it

[quiet skiff]

oh lol. I shouldve researched more before speaking!

Then I believe the problem is perception, Vintage Story bears are all the same exact size, standing up just at 3m, and feel somewhat small compared to the players hulking 1.9m~ seraph model.
To feel more like an appropriate endgame level surface threat, some should probably be scaled up to something like 3.3 / 3.8 / 4.3 meters for gameplay reasons (you could justify that the much reduced human population allowed megafauna sizes to jump back after the 500 years of much reduced human activity)

[fallow surge]

Fun fact (not so fun for me...): vanilla have 99 armor pieces (if we clamp all bronze together and iron with meteroric iron)

made it more coloreful to make it easier parse, now it is time to update the numbers

[hollow tulip]

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/32146

new CO client mod by me

[brave canyon]

Hahah, wonderful.

[hollow tulip]

tbh I like it more and yeah CO always reminded me of mount n blade @brave canyon

[brave canyon]

Yeah, exactly the same

I immediately described it as Mount and Blade aiming for some weapons :P

It got the point across instantly for my friends hahah

[hollow tulip]

hope u will like the client mod @brave canyon

[fallow surge]

What should be pros and cons of blackguard and forlorn armor compared to iron plate armor?

Or may be even make them outer/middle

[fallow surge]

Ok blackguard will have more protection, but more walk speed and aim drift debuf, but less manip speed debuf.
Forlorn will have a bit less protection, but much less debufs

[scenic cliff]

I'm trying to change the long axe from armory to have directional attacks with just a patch, Is it possible or am I just stupid?

[fallow surge]

It is possible, you can ask in https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/351624415039193098 about how json patches work

[scenic cliff]

Well thank you, I will keep trying for a bit more lol

[scenic cliff]

Okay nvm im stupid and overcomplicated the patch

Ty man for making the mod so easy to patch so even I can do it lol

[brave canyon]

Oh yes absolutely, I gotta share it with friends haha

[brave canyon]

That sounds good honestly, fits with the Blackguard class as well too, since the speed buff will kinda negate the heavier armor. Makes sense given their training

[hollow tulip]

oh brw if ur looking for servers that are vanilla plus without too many mods but have CO stuff look into #1422640928207798292

[hollow tulip]

tbh blackguard armor is more beafy looking

https://mods.vintagestory.at/bgacoc

I wish this was vanilla tbh

[fallow surge]

Oof, I can feel this pauldrons digging into my neck when I raise hands... Not the greatest design tbh

[earnest forge]

https://tenor.com/view/knife-hand-button-space-troopers-gif-24633734

[fallow surge]

Btw, now surface drifters deal 6 damage instead of 2... But imrovised armor reduces it to 4 and wooden lamellar to 2... I bet ppl will complain about deadly drifters.

Also shivers has damage increased the same way

[hollow tulip]

ooh...yeah that's true

[hollow tulip]

tbh shivers have weird ai but they were never really difficult

I just kite them tho I wish 1h weapons had a small range buff

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, some little articulated lames for the spaulders would be 👌

[fallow surge]

Balance update is out, so you all are free to go and find stuff that I inevitably missed...

[fallow surge]

Tried implementing this, and now because I have default hotkeys (all set to R) when I press R sword goes into sheath, when bow goes into hand, but then this same hotkey triggers taking sword from sheath and putting bow back into case, so nothing happes for player...

If I remap keys, all works fine...

Argh!

[lyric marsh]

i wouldn't expect vanilla to account for this

is a floating menu possible?

only way i can think to have a central hotkey

though wouldn't really fix this would it..

[lyric marsh]

plate armor is off

copper plate + chain + jerkin is 6, 6, 9

not 6, 6, 6

and so on

applies to brig too

values don't account for underarmor

this is what i noticed immediately, will look more indepth

[lyric marsh]

don't notice anything else, just the blunt side of early plate setups being disproportionately powerful

other than that, fantastic rebalance

lowering movement penalties of gamb and chain is perfect

[gentle dock]

makes sense, BG is just better Iron currently (and Forlorn is better BG)

[lyric marsh]

love the special armor rebalance too

especially since i am a big fan of the bg set

[ripe relic]

Btw uh

Is there a way to turn off FP overhaul lib animations?

Cause the knife attack is super buggy

[fallow surge]

knife attack? CO does not touch knifes

[fallow surge]

I should'v decrease them by 2 per material tier instead of 1

[lyric marsh]

yeah seems all good now, but the two special sets still have increased values, up to you if you wanna keep that

for example blackguard reaches 14 with t gamb

[neat panther]

If the First person option in settings ever gets "finished" or that it works properly enough, will the mod ever be compatible? (Cause i like both things and cannot pretty much play without this mod... But i also like the first person thingy from base game... I know it was said on the mods site, that it wont but... U know... Still better to ask and be confirmed, then to hope for something that might not ever happen)

Really great mod tho, altho i will have to work on my pvp/pve more since i, quite often miss lol

(also, is this a place to ask too? Or is this just a random, like, where we talk about mods we like?)

[brittle axle]

Playing the mod on version 1.20.12 and for some reason all projectiles dont work,
throwing spears, javelins, shooting from any bow with any arrow
all of those projectiles just phase through any mob
and using the bow tends to crash the game without any crash report.
Anything I can do to fix these?

[hollow pasture]

Update Xskills

And ensure that you are using the correct mod versions for the correct version of the game you're on

[brittle axle]

It works now :)
Thank you very much

[hollow pasture]

@fallow surge is there any way to add something when installing CO that runs you through a tutorial just like vanilla does?

[fallow surge]

You mean "Immersive First Person" that even devs consider obsolete after reworking regular first person mode? No, you can read mods descriptions on moddb, it is stated many times that it will never be supported, and that it does not work. Regular first person mode works perfectly fine and is fully "compatible", whatever this means.

[ocean siren]

now scale armor is best option for light travel?

[fallow surge]

I prefer plate breastplate and open hemlmet still

[fallow surge]

nope

[lyric marsh]

i'm running bg chest for sure when not using ranged

[fallow surge]

Yeah, bg is for melee

Full plate+mail gives you 48% steady aim penalty, full bg gives you 55% penalty

Want to effectively use ranged, dont equip arms and hands armor + use open helmets, or use lighter armor.

Not an option for bg set though

Most of steady aim penalty are from arms, hands, neck and face armor pieces.

Plate+mail chest+head gives you only 10% penalty

Full scale gives you 23% penalty

[neat panther]

how do i turn on the regular first person mod?

also thx

[fallow surge]

you turn off ifp

[neat panther]

?

whats ifp?

is it the immersive first person mode?

oh...

ok...

[lyric marsh]

is ifp really becoming deprecated?

would make sense given how little support it gets

[fallow surge]

It is mostly ignored for now

Will probably be left ignored until some major bug or feature breaks it.
Then it will most probably be scrapped.

Thats my personal prediction.

[fallow surge]

You can try lastest ovh lib, I fixed some bugs related to ifp. But I have no idea how to make weapons actually usable in ifp.

[scenic cliff]

Can I ask the reason behind forlorn hope and blackguard armor sets occuping 2 layers instead of one?

[fallow surge]

Ppl were complaining about mail ruining their look and that it needs mail in recipe. So now bg armor is based on plate+mail combination.

[scenic cliff]

Damn I guess was one of the few people who liked how the mail looked with the sets sadge

Espiecially with visored helmets

[lyric marsh]

i like it being both layers

repairing it and having a fully kitted armor for that part

[scenic cliff]

True but you cant do steel chain + forlorn hope/blackguard for nice protection and looks

[warm sparrow]

Working so far!

[proven plover]

holy fuck ifp actually works with CO now, thank you

[fallow surge]

Try hitting someone above you or below. Or hitting specific spots with thrusts, or aiming a firearm.

[warm sparrow]

Will try

Thank you for doing this

Seriously

[proven plover]

Maltiez do you have a ko-fi? Can't find one at first glance

[fallow surge]

Only patreon

[proven plover]

once again, thanks for the work you do. Makes the game much more enjoyable

[fallow surge]

I'm still not convinced that ifp is usable with CO weapons

[fallow surge]

I tested it. You cant really aim up or down and use ads, you need to turn on reticle.

[fallow surge]

Also the weapon itself will block your view...

[warm sparrow]

I see, I see

[rustic yacht]

How do firearms measure up to crossbows

And I’m at iron level what should my first gun be

[fallow surge]

more damage per shot, less damage per second, more expensive to make, more expensive to use, longer reload and require more inventory space to operate

but firearms are still more popular than crossbows, it seems

[lyric marsh]

it does boom, it does big smoke, it stops pulse

what's there not to like

guns are simply more flashy

[lyric marsh]

well if you're not a clockmaker make an arquebus

it's a safe bet

[rustic yacht]

And if I am

[lyric marsh]

bossi

cause two shots back to back

you're not gonna always be using both, but when you do it feels amazing

[fallow surge]

what about blunderbuss?

[lyric marsh]

blunderbuss is great but it's not exactly what you expect from a gun

it's the shotgun

and while it does have a high effective range, you can't snipe

a big factor of guns too is the instant access to a killing shot

with a crossbow that's loaded you still have to put the bolt in place before firing

with a gun you can quickdraw

[fallow surge]

not with matchlock

[lyric marsh]

yes that's the big disadvantage of matchlocks

i only take them when i am very deliberate about using them

hunting, active combat

even if the flintlock blunderbuss wasn't a damage upgrade over the base one it would still have a significant advantage because of this

[olive hazel]

whit mod adds those guys

[warm sparrow]

Rust bound from thalius

[lyric marsh]

what i noticed about guns is that people who aren't crazy about the guns never make any of the early ones

they just make a carbine or musket and call it

[hollow pasture]

I personally don't bother a whole lot with trading resources early in the game unless it's linen or drip

So I just forget about it because it's not like I normally have a huge surplus of saltpeter, sulfur, or charcoal either

[ripe relic]

Weird, since turning off overhaul lib animations fixes it

Entering into TP causes the animations to break for some reason, but idk.

[fallow surge]

Tp animation bug is vanilla

[ripe relic]

Righto

[fallow surge]

Dont see any changes between turned on and off animations

[ripe relic]

hard to see

but the left arm appears sometimes when attacking

But ig its a vanilla bug

[earnest forge]

Does anyone know if crossbows fit in the bow case or are they too chonky for storage?

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge i did a lil video of my texture mod

added music too

[hexed musk]

Ah, yes the "King Graveth having yet another banquet, instead of helping me win the war" theme. A favourite

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge hey btw will we see any texture updates on the meteor iron weapons? they have some yellow dots on em giving them a nice texture but most are just white. any updates for it in the future?

[sharp badge]

Yo, my friends started a server with Combat Overhaul but we gorgot to turn on Combat Overhaul: Armory on the server start. We tried adding it however it doesn't seem to be working - is there a step that we are missing?

[vale sleet]

whats is even this call
148.25ms, 348 calls, avg 426.01 us/call: gmleCombatOverhaul.Inputs.InInventoryPlayerBehavior

[lyric marsh]

good change making t gambeson craftable by everyone in endgame, but hardlocking regular gamb behind iron for non tailors, i don't know

also i think tailor should be able to use regular iron for tailored kits, not just meteoric

because when you use meteoric you have an iron anvil, which means it's already very likely you have made steel

[lyric marsh]

i suppose with the new balancing hardlocking gambeson makes sense now

[hollow tulip]

should work

you got config lib? and restarted the server?

[latent rain]

hehe, some friends and I were about to start a new world in 1.21 and I just showed them this. They are not happy

I'm being compelled to nerf the damage but I'm telling them to suck it up and at least try it out

[lyric marsh]

oh yeah i noticed and i love it

got headshot twice on me unprotected head yesterday for 12 hp

almost died to surface drifters

good stuff

first time it happened it made me doubletake

then i healed up and it happened again

i ran off

[tranquil onyx]

Good

The more reasons to use early game armours the better

I was already having unpopular takes among my group of friends that „early game armours are worth it”

[lyric marsh]

don't run around with a bald head at 3 am in vintage story

[tranquil onyx]

And they were always like „nuh uh. Why bother making something lesser than an iron chain”

[lyric marsh]

thankfully that is now fixed

co is immaculate now

[tranquil onyx]

The only change I did in conjunction with Exoskeletons mod is disable the armoured variants of them, to give people more reasons to use chain+gambeson+exoskeleton frame

[vale moat]

i get equipping armors when going into combat heavy scenarios, having walk speed, heal speed, hunger rate worsened for it, but i guess this means that now we should wear armor all the time, 6-12 hp from a stray sneaky hit is a lot

[lyric marsh]

just wear skin layer

[tranquil onyx]

I still feel like full plate will be meta for t4+ rust stuff, but at least it’s slightly less dominant than it was before

[lyric marsh]

it only has a speed penalty of 1 now

good design

[tranquil onyx]

Learning how to parry helps a lot with damage mitigation

Swords/weapons with embedded parry stonks

[vale moat]

agreed, and i try to, but thats a moot point - if you could actually parry it all and never get surprised then it doesn't matter anymore if it deals 2, 6 or 12 dmg

[lyric marsh]

well nothing effectively changed, just the complete absence of armor is now punished

any blunt resist like bear armor, jerkin or gamb still hardcounters

[tranquil onyx]

Well it „hard counters” just the stuff dealing blunt damage

Which frankly isn’t a lot of threats

[vale moat]

i dont think it does. the only skin armor available at beginning stage is wood lamellar and the penalties are quite high

[lyric marsh]

yeah there's shivers too but they're significantly less common than drifters

drifters win with numbers

[tranquil onyx]

Drifters are already somewhat easy to avoid as is, and the next thing blunt damage mitigation matters against is like bellhead shivers

[tranquil onyx]

But then there are weapons that can easily cleave multiple

[lyric marsh]

well if you're just running around the yard at night naked they can fuck you up

chilling at night when suddenly drifter from above blows your nuts off

it was a great moment

i got too used to drifters being useless so this was the ultimate reality check

two headshots back to back

head protection at night will now be mandatory for me

all i had on was my bg chest

[lyric marsh]

i recommend two top pieces of bear armor

assuming you can get one

one bear gives you a headpiece + a chest/legs piece

head and chest should be all the blunt protection you need for the timebeing, it's relatively light

[vale moat]

the full bear armor in CO has like a 24% hunger drain, def not something you want to be wearing all the time

[lyric marsh]

oh yeah i forget hunger rate stats are a thing

because of hunger freeze

and the hunger freeze bug (supposedly now fixed thank god)

[vale moat]

and well walk speed reduction which is annoying, but not that bad. at least not until you also add a middle layer to handle bowthorns

i dunno, i still dont get if the "vision" is to wear armor all the time or just when needed. i'd be fine with armor being "mandatory" at all stages of the game, if it didnt have these drawbacks

[lyric marsh]

stone age is supposed to be hard

(which is why i stay in it for an extended time)

then at copper the game significantly opens up

well before today, you could make gambeson in stone age

so yes it got harder now, but i think that's good given all the changes that happened

the vision is to find your own ideal armor setup

[vale moat]

you just said armor "hardcounters" the increased damage tho. it doesn't sound like its made more difficult, just more expensive.

and slower/tedious if you have to suck up the slower walk speed / increased hunger

[lyric marsh]

and with the newly added second chance grace period, taking risks is now significantly more viable

[lyric marsh]

leg piece is optional

in fact for bear armor i definitely would not recommend it

i think hunger drain is an oxymoron

it doesn't actually affect anything in practice

"if you're starving as a blackguard you would be starving regardless"

maybe if they redesign hunger freeze into something different that would change

[vale moat]

ok achilles

between healing, offhand use, winter outside and all the armor, hunger modifiers add up and result in a negative effect in the other big part of the game, the hardcore survival - its not all just about combat. maybe the mod wants to disregard that but might as well remove the penalty then 🤷 or at the very least not make it larger compared to vanilla values

[tranquil onyx]

Hunger rate penalties are a non-issue most of the time.

That’s not to say I don’t see your point, I just don’t think it’s an issue for me.

Even early in the game you will likely be carrying a pot of food on you to run errands - the more satiety it fills, the longer the buff duration of not having your hunger drained

[lyric marsh]

yeah that's the design gap of hunger

the game basically hands you a counter to your hunger drain percentage as soon as you find clay

i think i would like hunger freeze to be redesigned so hunger drain still matters

[fallow surge]

All drifters now deal only blunt damage

for gamplay sake

[fallow surge]

Now:
piercing damage: Bowtorns/Locust
slashing damage: Shivers/Carnivores
blunt damage: Drifters/Herbivores

[tranquil onyx]

Yeah. Just considering their static attack animations I generally consider them not as threatening as Shivers

Esp. considering the huge gaps in damage dealt by Nightmare drifters - which is the highest tier that can naturally spawn in non-ruins settings, and Bellhead shivers - which can also spawn outside of ruins and deal basically twice the damage of Nightmare drifters

On that note, are Bellheads’ damage split between Slashing and Blunt still?

[fallow surge]

Only blunt

bellheads are the exception

[tranquil onyx]

Which, I guess makes sense

[fallow surge]

For debufs: light armor has 0.01 hunger penalty per slot, Medium: 0.03, Heavy: 0.04 (reduced from 0.05)

chain has 0.03...

scale 0.015

I need to make it more consistent...

[fallow surge]

Some ppl already upset about gambesons

[lyric marsh]

i think it validates the trader prices for gambeson

[fallow surge]

Dont see how meteoric iron means steel. If ppl rush steel after making iron anvil, thats a problem with these ppl

[lyric marsh]

well, people make an iron anvil FOR steel

ever since the nerf to make meteoric only workable on an iron anvil it seems people skip it altogether and just use it as cheap extra iron after getting steel

[fallow surge]

Now they will have insentive to make iron anvil for meteoirc iron then

[final garden]

Ah, sounds like I'll need to update Visored Helmets to the new CO stata

[fallow surge]

Yes

I hope at least someone will follow this:

I need a discord tag @corebalancedagain so I can ping ppl with it to tell them update their values...

[tranquil onyx]

So is this like a 1.21.2 recipe patch to include a specific type of sewing kit in the Tailored gambeson crafting recipe? (I'm still on 1.21.1 version)

[fallow surge]

tailored gambeson requires bronze for tailors and iron for non-tailors, and tailored gambezon requires meteoric iron for tailors and steel for non-tailors essentially, and it is done via 2 new sewing kits

[tranquil onyx]

Oh, OK, I dig

This is fair

Tailored gambesons being locked to Tailors was a bit of a tough sell in vanilla, but giving people an incentive to actually being a Tailor is nice, too, so I can see where the person criticising the lack of that option is coming from, considering that past steel age being a Tailor is no longer relevant.

[fallow surge]

Access to tailored gambeson is essential for balance, but server owners can configure it via json patch in their server mod, if they want to

[tranquil onyx]

Yeah, agreed. I've started personally json patching some stuff I want to control on my server - it's a hassle, but at least I'm learning something new.

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge will the meteoric iron weapons get any texture update?

the golden gliter dots

[lyric marsh]

i think that would be controversial

because people typically dislike the piss dots on meteoric

[earnest forge]

That's the radioactive material.

[hollow tulip]

whaaat

u can have less tbh

they add a nice texuture

[hollow tulip]

AND?

[lyric marsh]

i'm one of the rare fans

but i'm saying vast majority do not like them

[next wasp]

I personally like the golden dots

[final garden]

I like the meteorite flecking, but I note that once processed, meteoric iron wouldn't look much different from standard. That said, the nickel content could result in some yellow flecks

Not really sure how, though, seeing as Nickel and nickel oxide aren't yellow

[sharp badge]

Turns out we were using a mismatched version, thank you though.

[hollow tulip]

ahh oki

[elder saddle]

@fallow surge just did your recent update, even though it's been a few updates since I did CO.

Textures are broken, and animations aren't working

[fallow surge]

Installation problem

[elder saddle]

weird

haven't done anything different

[fallow surge]

Clear cache, remove dupllicates, restart the game

[elder saddle]

yeah I know, that's why I said I didn't do anything different. Same practice everytime

[fallow surge]

Try looking into logs for errors

It is very unlikely that this is caused by the mod itself

[elder saddle]

6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [armory]     [email protected] - Dependency 'combatoverhaul_0.10.4.zip' (combatoverhaul) has dependency errors itself
6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [armory]     [email protected] - Version mismatch (has 1.11.11)
6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [combat-overhaul-reanimated] Could not resolve some dependencies:
6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [combat-overhaul-reanimated]     combatoverhaul@* - Dependency 'combatoverhaul_0.10.4.zip' (combatoverhaul) has dependency errors itself
6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [combatoverhaul] Could not resolve some dependencies:
6.10.2025 19:38:26 [Error] [combatoverhaul]     [email protected] - Version mismatch (has 1.11.11)```

[fallow surge]

Update the lib

As logs tell you

[elder saddle]

and that's the problem I have.. I did do that

hate this game sometimes lol

[fallow surge]

Client - StartBlock
OnReceiveDamageHandler - receive damage
Server - StartBlock

Latency makes it hard to block enemies

Even in SP

I guess I need to patch enemies to deal damage later in attack

[hollow pasture]

Wow, lot's of major changes. Sounds like I'm gonna have to make another video 🤣

[brave canyon]

… I wonder if you could do something like get the latency from the server to that individual, or use a callback harmony patch maybe to time it on block…?

But based on that timing, adjust the point it actually damages…

Like trying to add that latency after the current point the enemy “hits”. But… shit that might not work for the callback since the server’s clueless until it gets the actual call from the client… hm.

Lag compensation is hard haha

[foggy carbon]

Its normal to only be able to attach 1 pistol holster (either main or offhand) to the bag belt?

[fallow surge]

Yes

I might allow it to attach to left side too later

[earnest forge]

Is there a case for crossbows yet?

[fallow surge]

Nope

[earnest forge]

Well at least the bolt quiver can hold a windlass

[elder saddle]

@fallow surge I don't think im smart enough to understand this

CoreCLR Version: 8.0.2025.41914
.NET Version: 8.0.20
Description: The process was terminated due to an unhandled exception.
Exception Info: System.AccessViolationException: Attempted to read or write protected memory. This is often an indication that other memory is corrupt.
Stack:
   at MonoMod.Core.Interop.CoreCLR+V60.InvokeCompileMethod(IntPtr, IntPtr, IntPtr, CORINFO_METHOD_INFO*, UInt32, Byte**, UInt32*)
   at MonoMod.Core.Platforms.Runtimes.Core70Runtime+JitHookDelegateHolder.CompileMethodHook(IntPtr, IntPtr, CORINFO_METHOD_INFO*, UInt32, Byte**, UInt32*)```

[earnest forge]

Memory overflow? Infinite recursion loop?

It's not ANSI C so there shouldn't be any manual pointer math

[fallow surge]

ImGui uses "unsafe" context

May be some other mods too

[foggy carbon]

I guess adding more hotkeys isn't ideal, but would be rad to have a pair of pistols on 1 key or sword/offhand pistol on another. Anyway, its very cool

[fallow surge]

Btw, I like how new sling performs. I'm still in stone age with no access to lead yet and I use clay bullets. Sling is great against small animals like hares, raccoons, foxes, birds, but is quite ineffective against bigger animals like deers and wolves. Also nice to be able to retaliate bowtorns.

[cosmic notch]

current version 1.21.4

[quiet cradle]

source to this statement? i like them

[lyric marsh]

then you're also a rare truther

[oblique bramble]

i too like the yellow speckles

though maybe people would like it more if there were alternating layers of yellow and white. like damascus

meteoric damascus...

[quiet cradle]

that would look epic

[tranquil onyx]

I don’t think it’s greatly relevant to CO, but I like the texture of meteoric iron items

[lyric marsh]

maybe add sling to survival goods trader?

the basic one

[fallow surge]

2 ropes and a bullet? You really need to buy 12 reed and a couple of stones from a trader?

[lyric marsh]

no it's because it's a class exclusive craft

traders sell recurve bows for example

[fallow surge]

Hm, I usually play with class exclusive turned off, see no reason for them in sp

Ok, may be then

[final garden]

Yeah, only the malefactors can make 'em :/

[hollow pasture]

I saw in the patch notes that the sling gets a damage boost for >100% manipulation speed. How does one achieve that?

[lyric marsh]

exoskeletons i'd assume?

[fallow surge]

It already had that, I just removed reducing the damage while lower than 100%

[fallow surge]

Proficiency, like malefactor has

Exoskeleton will help too

[lyric marsh]

i'm surprised exoskeletons are unpopular

outlandish mod, but stuff like enchanting is popular

[tranquil onyx]

People like making this game into Minecraft often times.

Exoskeletons is fine but their armoured variants are reaaally strong; say if you are using CO alongside Forgotten Armoury series of mods, there’s literally no reason to use FA armours for reasons other than looks

[fallow surge]

There is config though, you can balance them around:

[tranquil onyx]

I’m well aware - it’s just my general impressions

[fallow surge]

How whould it look like to not be OP?

[tranquil onyx]

Make armoured variants give less protection, for instance

I once saw a justification for a power armour in a text-based RPG manual that due to servos the designers of the armour had to reduce the amount of plating allowed on the thing

[fallow surge]

Does not make sense, cuase you literally slap exoskeleton part onto armor

[tranquil onyx]

The configuration is already plenty helpful with alleviating some of the balancing of the base variant, but if you want to anchor a justification for armoured variants being less strong it's really pulling at the straws, because yes - I agree that it makes sense that the plate shouldn't be just weaker from the get-go.

One other thing that comes to mind is receiving damage/performing actions (jumping, cancelling fall damage with legs; mining or attacking with either of arms variants), or taking damage, would shorten the effective time it can stay powered, but IDK what would be a fair amount for each action.

[hollow pasture]

Potentially seperate exoskeleton damage from armor damage using the new equipment slots you've added?

Since your plate armor would be fine from most attacks, but cupronickel and complex joints probably aren't as durable as steel...

I.e. removing the armor+exo combination items and just making the exoskeleton take up different slots

[mighty nacelle]

there's some z fighting between tabard and belt, dunno if you already know about this

[fossil lake]

my goats foot cannot use the primer from my quiver, needs to be in my hotbar to work

nevermind used an updater that downloaded older versions of mods and messed with some things, working fine now

[long sleet]

Hi, I've not been following much about the performance discussion, I just wanted to ask if there are any improvement performance wise from the 1.20 version of the mod (and lib) and the 1.21 version

I know there's a key bind to disable animations, but if I remember correctly it disabled combat too?

[simple comet]

Has anyone run into the message, "Night Vision is fully fueled" when attempting to add fuel to the various wearable lights?

I suspect there's a conflict with another mod, but I'm unsure where to start looking.

[earnest sand]

all the custom recipes should be like this tbh, where not having the class doesnt completely lock you out of them, i know theres an option to just disable them but then you create an imbalance because theres no medium designed for that progression.

Tailored gamba in CO is the difference between losing 2 pips of health vs half a pip of health against grizzlies, it can be shocking how hit or miss the resistance scaling is.

[hollow tulip]

I just have class receipts disabled for my server lol

[gentle isle]

Hi, just another player encountering the "lack of animations and inability to attack with weapons" here. I've uninstalled, reinstalled (both game and mod), checked that I didn't have a duplicate mod zip file, cleared the game's cache, toggled animations via Ctrl+PageUp(and PageDown), restarted the game several times, swapped classes to Commoner and back, and still can't attack.

What steps have I missed, or can perform with the goal of fixing the bug? Using a knife is fine in a pinch, but I'd like to do some sctual combat again. Not sure what happened between it working and not working, as I take long breaks between combat for mining and smelting and in-base, "safe" stuff.

[vale moat]

overhaul lib is installed too? you mentioned mod as in singular but it has dependencies

[fallow surge]

Look into logs.
Do you use kemono?

[gentle isle]

Yeah, updated/reinstalled that too when I updated stuff.

[gentle isle]

Is it messy cross-compat between Kemono isn't it? If so, that mod has caused me so many headaches since I started playing a while ago

(running a session and grabbing logs, one sec, it'll probably be really obvious once I grab the log huh)

[fallow surge]

If you use kemono, dont (or dont use overhaul lib and related mods), they are incompatible.

[gentle isle]

So them happening to work at the same time is a fluke, not expected behavior?

'Cause I had them both working for a hot minute on this world, but now not so much.

[fallow surge]

You can request CO compatibility on their side, but they will probably refuse. Same on my side.

[gentle isle]

I really should take notes on changes I make (updating mods, removing old files, clearing caches, etc.) so I can keep track of this, since I've gotten them to work together well (randomly) in the past.

As it's apparently been a long-ongoing issue (Kemono adds in their animations messily from what I've heard, not actually opened their files myself), on a scale from "stupid easy" to "just stupid", where would me making a compat mod land? Only made mods for other games (so far).

[fallow surge]

I would not recommend trying to make compat mod, tbh.
Best you can do is reimplement their player models using PlayerModelLib or something else.

Though, I'm the author of the PlayerModel lib, so this is obviously biased.

Although, I made PML to solve such issues

[gentle isle]

Logs showed nothing related to animations, sadly- I was hoping it was going to be obvious (I mean, it is obviously Kemono in combination)

[fallow surge]

-# just noticed that PML is an anagram of MLP...

[gentle isle]

ohno

So, at that point would I end up just yoinking all of Kemono, and trying to reimplement it under the UI system that PML is using? Or just grab the parts I'm using specifically and have "my OC do not steal" mod (bleh)?

(please correct if i have something wrong or backwards, I haven't seen game files or literally anything under the hood, I like saving that for when I go into making mods for a game)

Also I realize this has diverted beyond CO, I'll resume convo over in mods-general/development after this lol

[brave canyon]

Hahaha, amazing.

[spiral hearth]

The idea of magic in a fantasy type world seams to be more enticing then strong mechanical items? My wife will only play vintage if there is some way to do magic and stuff, instantly bores and doesn't care about any of the rest of the game. I don't get it...lol

[brave canyon]

I think Magic could work really well in Vintage, it just needs to kinda fit the theming and everything because so much of it is kinda grounded, either in semi-realism, or the game's own lore

[ashen matrix]

glances to the side at Rustbound Magic

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I've not looked into Rustbound Magic myself too much, but I see the clear Thaumcraft inspirations haha.

At the same time, it might be that Thaumcraft bias that ironically makes it feel a little out of place?

[fallow surge]

Btw, can you please come up with an item tags for tools maintenance supplies from Toolsmith (like wetstones, handles and bindings)?
I want to make a special belt bag to store them for going away from base

[brave canyon]

Oh, sure! The vanilla tags system?

[fallow surge]

Yes

You can even suggest bag slots compositions (how many slots and what to hold in them)

[brave canyon]

Oh right yeah, I remember seeing it at the top of various files, I entirely forgot about it.

Haha, awesome, I was thinking of adding a toolbelt myself as well sometime, but this would be very helpful :P

Huh... I probably can also add tags in code too.

[fallow surge]

You can look into https://mods.vintagestory.at/quiversandsheaths to see how it works

[fallow surge]

Better to json patch them in to vanilla and other mods items, and add them into your items

[brave canyon]

Yeah, it'd mainly just be for bindings and handles probably.

Just because I use code to add the behaviors to those

[fallow surge]

Hm... Ok, not sure if this is supported by the game though...

Tags field is mutable

But it needs to be synced

[true nexus]

gretings, just wanted to say this mod is awesome

[brave canyon]

Hmm...

I do know I was able to add StorageFlags in the code

I hoped it would be similar to that

[true nexus]

me HEMA arse could not withstand vanilla weapons and fightin

[brave canyon]

What would be the best example to look at in vanilla for the tags? I can't remember where I saw them, and I'm finding the 'foodtags' which, dunno if that'd work the best hah.

[fallow surge]

You just add "tags": ["mytag"], to itemtype

[brave canyon]

Oh cool, alrighty

Was it added to just Items alone, and not CollectableObjects or before?

[fallow surge]

Items, Blocks and Entities has Tag field of different types

[brave canyon]

Aah, okay.

[fallow surge]

You can look into ai tasks for example of using tags in code

[brave canyon]

Ah! Thank you!

It seems that ITagRegistry is also incredibly useful for this

I think using that is exactly how you can add tags using code.

[fallow surge]

Hm, temporal gear amulet is quite OP... It produces too much light...

Nvm, it just vanilla lighting system being strange

[coarse prism]

hardly produces much light for me, yeah

[fallow surge]

Enough to navigate underground, may be not enough to comfortably spot ore

But for some reason some sunlight is able to get underground in some places

With head oil lamp its much better though, but it consumes fat

[coarse prism]

I enjoy the amulet as like a backup light source especially early on when you don't have a lantern and you accidentally dunk your torch, means you have at least something to navigate with

[brave canyon]

Okay, I'm going to run with "toolsmith-part" for all parts, "toolsmith-maintenance" for maintenance tools (sandpaper and whetstones currently)

Then just "toolsmith-binding" and so on for handle and head as well

Any more specific part will also have the 'part' tag so probably can use the part tag for the bags?

But the option for more specific slots is there too, heh

And currently only Bindings can be both blocks and items

Because of the dumb MetalParts being a block :<

I think in vanilla that is the only outlier

[fallow surge]

Tags are not parsed as strings, they are indexed on world start and compared as whole, you should not wildacrd check them

[brave canyon]

I'm not

I just didn't want to type it all out

[fallow surge]

ok

[brave canyon]

https://i.imgur.com/xLHL29R.png

[final garden]

@fallow surge Players have reported a bug with visored helmets that with the new CO update, my opened helmets have no stats, could it be because I used area-specific stats?

[fallow surge]

I could'v broken something... Send link to the mod, I will look into it

[final garden]

Sure thing, It's the same mod with the busted config lib error, do you just want me to send you the packaged one now or should I try and update all the rebalanced values first?

[fallow surge]

Just send packaged one

[final garden]

DM, then?

[fallow surge]

Why not here?

[final garden]

Sure, works for me

[fallow surge]

They are just not displayed, and I dont think they were before

[final garden]

Ah, that's good, I'll let them know. Any idea with the config lib?

By the way, since you've done this whole rebalance, I'd like to make sure my balances are in-line with your new set-up. If the visored closed helmets are equivalent to plate helmets, what do you think would be a good reference for the stats of the helmet with the visor open? Not changing the protection stats, but more in regards to manipulation, bow debuff, healing rate, etc. I want it to be preferable to plate, but I don't want to make other helmets pointless

I think I made them previously as slightly worse than light helmets?

I think previously steady aim would typically go from -0.15 closed to -0.1, healing effectiveness -0.09 to -0.07, and hunger rate 0.15 to 0.1

But protection-wise, it was identical to plate, except now your face is completely unarmoured

[fallow surge]

Face and neck are the main cotributors to aim drift and manipulation speed

You can look into Armory open helmet for reference

And compare it with vanilla plate helmet

Helaing and hunger are the same for each zone and layer

[final garden]

Open helmet leaves the neck mostly unprotected though, right? Most visor helmets still fully protect the neck, but have a wide open face

[fallow surge]

Healing is 0.03 per slot, hunger is 0.04 per slot for plate

[fallow surge]

{"walkspeed": 0, "manipulationSpeed": -0.03, "steadyAim": -0.06, "healingeffectivness": -0.06, "hungerrate": 0.08}

[final garden]

Oh! So healing would go 0.09 to 0.06? Hunger from 0.12 to 0.08?

[fallow surge]

Yes

[final garden]

Are open helmets functionally the same as an open visor helmet? I don't want to make open helmets pointless

[fallow surge]

You need light helmet stats that I sent

[fallow surge]

Open helmet protects only head, light helmet protects face and head, open visored protects neck and head

[final garden]

Ah, I see!

[fallow surge]

Also, still would be nice to see bevors as separate pieces

[final garden]

So same values as light helmet according to those calculations, since it's based by zoning

Yes! It's on my list of things to do :l

Sadly it is a long list

[fallow surge]

I have long list of my own...

[final garden]

I'm certain you've got a lot more on your plate

[fallow surge]

Probably

[final garden]

Still, making the bevor separate shouldn't be a big deal. Hardest part would just be making sure steel helmet is only one item vanilla, but two items CO

Probably just patch the shape and have a secondary item with no crafting recipe without CO

Interesting conundrum: When you open the blackguard helmet, it actually has some cloth wrapping that still covers the face. Should I keep the Middle part stats for the face as well, then, or should I still remove them?

[fallow surge]

I dont think cloth provides much protection

[final garden]

Me neither

[fallow surge]

Also blackguard and forlorn now occupy 2 layers

[final garden]

I noticed while I was updating them

Nice, means I don't need the chainmail coif anymore

[fallow surge]

That was the main complain this layers rework was addressing

[final garden]

Yeah. Makes sense. It only bugged me because you couldn't get chainmail that was the same colour as the helmet :/

(Though iron was pretty close)

[fallow surge]

I will just display stats for resists for first zone in by zone list, dont want to spend time rn designing proper way to present stats for different zones

[final garden]

That makes sense. Maybe I'll add a comment or note or something that mentions your face is exposed

[fallow surge]

I'm also glad you decided not to overdetail iron helemet with more round shape