Combat Overhaul

[lyric marsh]

that's to be accounted for

you're inherently more susceptible to oneshots

getting oneshot by a brown bear in stone age makes sense as the baseline

[fallow surge]

accounting to that makes things harder, lets worry about it later

[lyric marsh]

so ~15 hp

[fallow surge]

lets get 10 numbers first, and then explanation

[lyric marsh]

hmm this is difficult to do straight off the head

stoneage: wolf 7, bear 15
copper: wolf 3, bear 6
bronze: wolf 2, bear 4
iron: wolf 1.5, bear 2
steel: wolf 1, bear 1.5

this is very rough given no reference but this is the best i've got

[fallow surge]

Full heavy armor?

[lyric marsh]

(keep in mind bears do double hits when you fight back)

[fallow surge]

this is a bug

They also loose interest after one hit and wonder away

[lyric marsh]

actually this a bug i found

when you clip into a pursuing enemy, they not only deaggro, but they become completely passive to you

seemingly until you unload them or attack them (not guaranteed to reaggro on attack)

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1422547858782949406

if you keep running away they attack infinitely

maybe they're supposed to hit you once and run away, but instead we have this buggy mess

where if you keep running away you're locked in to death or if you just stand still the enemy completely gives up

[fallow surge]

This needs rework of damage reduction values applied to all armor

[lyric marsh]

this is very approximate

at least with current ai logic, this is the only way to have it be noticeable

[fallow surge]

Here is the table that defines armor and enemies balancing, you can copy it and adjust to how you think it should look like: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?usp=sharing

[lyric marsh]

a bear is effectively a high tier shiver, look at it that way

minus the saving grace of random seizures

and doublehits

[fallow surge]

Have you worked with spreadsheets before?

[lyric marsh]

well i have

imma clone it

[fallow surge]

Then you know not to change values in a cell if its already calculated via formula

[lyric marsh]

mhm

well, time to fafo

[fallow surge]

Dont try to balance for bugs

[lyric marsh]

i won't account for the doublehit, but the basic behavior of infinite aggression should be considered imo

at least until addressed by the game

[fallow surge]

doublehit I will try to fix

[lyric marsh]

okay, i think this is perfect, if bronze+ scale armor gets buffed with +1 slashing

[fallow surge]

Send link to table

[lyric marsh]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1owlsNH6uyCS82NhcGgWuN-7kEsNK2VoDTUP_-iMqEbk/edit?gid=266754028#gid=266754028

[fallow surge]

You need to share it

[lyric marsh]

do google docs autosave?

[fallow surge]

yes

[lyric marsh]

there, approved

i did balance it around the baseline of normal gambeson

because t gambeson is a luxury

[fallow surge]

What are tiers for each age?

1,3,5,7,9?

[lyric marsh]

for light?

[fallow surge]

yes

[lyric marsh]

for light it's 1, 5, 7, 8, 9

if you buff bronze+ scale by 1 slashing point, this becomes perfect

so 1, 6, 8, 9, 10

[fallow surge]

And heavy?

[lyric marsh]

okay i got it confused a little

let me recount

(current values: light, heavy)
stoneage: 0, 1
copper: 5, 7
bronze: 6, 9
iron: 7, 11
steel: 8, 13

[fallow surge]

0?

[lyric marsh]

stoneage typically has no protection

[fallow surge]

What tier 1 armor protects from? Why would player make wooden lamellar?

[lyric marsh]

yeah idk i don't use it in co

[fallow surge]

It has to be usefull

[lyric marsh]

i think it's okay to just not have armor in stoneage

i just put on the top two bear parts and call it a day

[fallow surge]

It is here already, I cant remove it, it needs to be usefull

[lyric marsh]

well if it's to be useful, wood lamellar needs a slashing buff to at least defend against wolves

given lamellar takes all three layers there can be no funny business either

i think giving it tier 3 is enough to encourage upgrading

[fallow surge]

Btw, 14 is the max armor tier

[lyric marsh]

i know

[fallow surge]

Consider steel using tailored

[lyric marsh]

well currently steel + tailored is effectively the buff i am proposing to scale as a baseline

given scale and chain+plate grow apart by more points in each tier, starting with bronze giving it +1 extra would give it the edge

(as well as the spreadsheet rebalance)

[fallow surge]

also
stone - wood
copper - copper + jerkin
bronze - bronze + jerkin
iron - iron + sewn
steel - steel + tailored

[lyric marsh]

nobody uses jerkin

because it's just worse gambeson

[fallow surge]

You can have 1 tier difference between bronze and iron and iron and steel

[fallow surge]

All ppl have access to linen in bronze and copper age?

[lyric marsh]

i make linen in stone age

[tranquil onyx]

Is it? I imagine early in the game it might be easier to have a stockpile of leather rather than linen

[lyric marsh]

progression rushers sure, they need to wait

but i take my time regardless

[fallow surge]

I get to iron age way before linen

[tranquil onyx]

But again that depends on many things; I’ll give gambeson one thing - it can be bought, and that alone can make it more popular

[lyric marsh]

well that's progression rushing

people who take the game slow are more prepared

[fallow surge]

It isn't, iron is quite easy to get

[tranquil onyx]

I do concur that iron is easy to get

[lyric marsh]

i get that, but i'm saying it's not unreasonable to say someone will have gambeson by copper

especially given how cheap it is in co

[fallow surge]

it is meant to be jerkin in copper age 100%, and I can argue about linen in bronze age, but not in copper

so we need to balance around it

having linen in stone age is outlier

[lyric marsh]

well bronze age is the point regardless where i can say it's reasonable to fight back against the bear in heavy armor and survive an encounter in light armor

so my point stands

[fallow surge]

So this is what co is balanced around:
stone - wood
copper - copper + jerkin
bronze - bronze + jerkin
iron - iron + sewn
steel - steel + tailored

So you cant have 1 tier difference between bronze and iron and iron and steel

Lets balance around it

Please redistribute light and heavy armor values in the second sheet

1 - stone age, 5 - steel

[lyric marsh]

why is steel balanced around tailored if it requires a tailor regardless?

but it doesn't matter, it's endgame

i personally would never make jerkin

if i need 3 blunt protection i wear a bear

[fallow surge]

ok, we need to balance around average player

we dont talk about specific armors, just armor types, specific armos can be balanced around it later

only specifics about underarmor to give a restriction on protection tier difference

Also heavy armor should have 3 tier difference in same caes, due to it being composed from 3 layers

[lyric marsh]

but given the way it is balanced, slightly shortening the gap might be the only way

but sure, i'll give it a rethink

[fallow surge]

You cant have steel and iron mail have same stats

[lyric marsh]

what do you mean?

i think there's a misunderstanding

[fallow surge]

3 pieces of armor for heavy armor, each one of them should be better than armor from previous tier, the minimum diff between tiers is 1, so for 3 pieces total diff will be 3

[lyric marsh]

i'll reiterate my suggestion

[fallow surge]

If steel is better than iron plate, mail and t and sewn gambeson, you have +1 tier from each item, so steel age has to be at least 3 tiers better than iron age

[lyric marsh]

my suggestion, is that with these redone damage stats, that scale armor (and scale armor only) gets +1 defense tier to its current value on bronze, iron and steel

it's not additive

only one for each

[fallow surge]

You need to spread out 9 (there is only one stone age armor, lets say) numbers over 14 tiers (or increase max number of tiers...), you cant have less than 3 diff between heavy armor with different under armor (and 2 between same underarmor), and 2 and 1 for light armor respectively

[lyric marsh]

but copper already breaks that rule

the difference is only 2

[fallow surge]

Between what?

[lyric marsh]

scale and chain+plate

[fallow surge]

...

[lyric marsh]

yeah there's a misunderstanding

[fallow surge]

it is diffs between different materials

I think I formulated it correctly...

[lyric marsh]

so basically this is my goal

that would be
(current values: light, heavy)
stoneage: 0, 1
copper: 4, 6
bronze: 5, 8
iron: 7, 11
steel: 9, 14

[fallow surge]

Heavy:
copper - stone >= 2
bronze - copper >= 2
iron - bronze >= 3
steel - iron >= 3
Light:
copper - stone >= 1
bronze - copper >= 1
iron - bronze >= 2
steel - iron >= 2

1 for stone age is not enough though

[lyric marsh]

yes but i think that's a different topic for the end

after the bulk is done

[lyric marsh]

hmm, so a total rebalance of armor stats?

[fallow surge]

We'll see

If new value will make sense

[lyric marsh]

i think the current ones work with just some tweaks

i think t gambeson is a real third wheel here

given its exclusivity and increasing power over the tiers

makes all of this so much harder

[fallow surge]

I can lock it behind meteoric iron or steel and make it less exclusive or somethig, it does not matter right now

So there are new points for light and heavy armor in second sheet, are the numbers of damage dealt by animals AND monsters balanced?

[lyric marsh]

second sheet, meaning mine?

[fallow surge]

Sheet not spreadsheet

[lyric marsh]

okay i see now

bronze light and heavy are a bit weak

iron light is a bit underpowered and heavy is a little overpowered

and steel is easy mode

this is the animals analysis, time to see the rest

[fallow surge]

There is also this sheet that defines how armor tiers work, and the first two sheets use values from it

[lyric marsh]

changing that could be too much of a factor

[fallow surge]

Also: shivers deal a lot of damage with low damage tier, bowtowns deal small damage with a lot of damage tier, drifters are in the middle, this the requirements

[lyric marsh]

the rest of the values seem fine

maybe iron plate would be a bit too good

and steel plate is obviously gg

[fallow surge]

Adjust to fix this (but you cant move protection tiers freely)

[lyric marsh]

so the armor protection is set in stone

[fallow surge]

They seem so, you can reduce copper light armor I guess, otherwise... Yeah, may be bump all light by one only

You have restrictions from before + you dont want light armor be too close to same havy armor

[lyric marsh]

what if the heavy armor is slightly underpowered?

[fallow surge]

wdym?

[lyric marsh]

i think bronze heavy is a tier low

[fallow surge]

Heavy tiers are set in stone rn

[lyric marsh]

okay

[fallow surge]

due to restrictions we talked about above

[lyric marsh]

okay maybe the defense calculation should be a curve

because this doesn't check out

bronze is not good enough while iron is too good

[fallow surge]

Go into "Damage reduction" sheet and adjust it accordingly

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge this spear still uses the vanilla attack and i think it could be updated to work as the other spears for combat overhaul. idk maybe you forgot about it or it stopped working thats all

tuning spear btw

for the clockworker

[fallow surge]

This is tuning spear, I wont touch it.

[hollow tulip]

reason?

[fallow surge]

It is for taming locusts, not combat

[hollow tulip]

ig it might break stuff

oki

[fallow surge]

yes

[teal carbon]

any plans to have the arqubus hold onto its match for repeat shots?

[fallow surge]

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1135402924290359336

nope

[teal carbon]

darn

[lyric marsh]

i think this increasing jump in heavy armor effectiveness is exactly what people mean by co being too hard early on and too easy later on

i think we should reduce the amount of variables instead of adding them

[fallow surge]

No one reported it to me

[lyric marsh]

for this to work as is the damage calculation would need to be a curve that drops off early and steadies later on

[fallow surge]

Adjust values in the third sheet

These values define this curve

[lyric marsh]

truth be told i ain't good at that

[fallow surge]

no one is

[lyric marsh]

i'm good at working with what i'm given, and what i did earlier seemed perfectly fine in my eyes

[fallow surge]

wdym?

Whats wrong with these values?

[lyric marsh]

heavy armor jumps too much when by the point of iron it trivializes everything anyway

what is the huge steel leap for

just by looking at the chart you can see it

armor should precisely add LESS over time with the current implementation

the gap between light and heavy needs to be closed, not increased towards the end

because towards the end each point matters more and more

and this is exactly why i'm saying that the jerkin/gamb/t gamb balance is off

[fallow surge]

This spread sheet fully defines how armor works, and with these restrictions:
Heavy:
copper - stone >= 2
bronze - copper >= 2
iron - bronze >= 3
steel - iron >= 3
Light:
bronze - copper >= 1
iron - bronze >= 2
steel - iron >= 2
You can configure to whatever you want (all these are actually in json, not hardcoded)

These restrictons are from pure interger number math

So, just make it work, and then I can just put it in the mod.

You can change maximum armor tier

But dont change maximum attack tier

I dont want to rebalance weapons

[teal carbon]

how does layering armor affect your tier?
is it just redundancy for coverage or are they additive

[lyric marsh]

add the points for each layer

[fallow surge]

Steel light armor has to have at most 8 tier...

plate on its own should be better than scale + steel mail cant be worse than 5

[lyric marsh]

i am balancing around the values you put in

[fallow surge]

so diff should be at least 6

[lyric marsh]

i am making a curve damage model

[fallow surge]

I just realized this restriction

[lyric marsh]

did you change it?

[fallow surge]

no

So
L3-L2>=1
L4-L3>=2
L5-L4>=2
H2-H1>=2
H3-H2>=2
H4-H3>=3
H5-H4>=3
H2-L2>=3
H3-L3>=4
H4-L4>=5
H5-L5>=6

[lyric marsh]

i gotta say i don't quite understand these explanations so please just edit the document so i can understand

[fallow surge]

Just asked chatgpt to solve it, I'm kinda tired rn
H5 = 16
H4 = 13
H3 = 10
H2 = 8
H1 = 6
L5 = 10
L4 = 8
L3 = 6
L2 = 5

[lyric marsh]

okay i can understand this

i move the numbers?

[fallow surge]

May be make L2 = 4 for consistency?

But these are the max values you can have

If 16 is the max total

[lyric marsh]

sure

[fallow surge]

You can ask chatgpt to solve these equations if you want to increase max tier even further

[lyric marsh]

nah i'm good

i already had a rhythm going with the 14 tiers, 16 is enough

[fallow surge]

Hm, I dont light H1 been bigger than L2 tbh

May be move H1 to 4

[lyric marsh]

well the problem is, lamellar isn't heavy

[fallow surge]

it is the only one

[lyric marsh]

unless you're adding a brand new stone age armor set?

[fallow surge]

You can call it U1

[lyric marsh]

i think it should be a tier below l2 given the context

maybe even two lower

it's easy to make and light

in vanilla it only reliably protects against surface monsters

are these numbers final?

[fallow surge]

You can adjust it, but those:
H5 = 16
H4 = 13
H3 = 10
H2 = 8
L5 = 10
L4 = 8
L3 = 6
L2 = 5
M1 = 6
Are max values if 16 is the max tier

Just make sure you follow the equations, I added them to their own sheet

[lyric marsh]

i'm okay with this, but i would like to move the wood armor a tier lower

[fallow surge]

ok

[lyric marsh]

also by the tier limit we are assuming that the limit can be reached for every damage type?

i guess we'll figure that out after

i'm liking what i have going so far

well i have my draft

feel free to look at it and ask questions

[fallow surge]

Why stilt is 6/10?

Isn't 3.5, 2.7, 4.0 damage to player in fullest armor too many?

I have complains previously about armor being underpowered when ppl were receiving simillar damage...

[lyric marsh]

well something is supposed to be a threat even at the highest level

like in vanilla in full steel plate specials still do noticeable damage to you and it builds up

this is to prevent steel from being truly easy mode

[fallow surge]

How much sawblade and doubleheaded deal to player in vanilla in steel plate?

[lyric marsh]

sawblade is tier 3 so it does get hardcountered by armor, but the intent here is to make it unique

[lyric marsh]

i think about 2 hp?

maybe a bit more

[fallow surge]

Can you test it please?

for bellhead, stilt and gearfoot too

[lyric marsh]

3.19 from doubleheader

0.25 gearfoot

stilt also 3.19

bellhead same number

[fallow surge]

Ok, fine then

[lyric marsh]

i guess i really unintentionally made it into vanilla+

and i don't think that's a bad thing

would make co significantly less jarring for those trying it

[fallow surge]

From 3 top shives, how rare they are compared to doulbeheaded?

[lyric marsh]

the special shivers?

deepsplit spawns in storms, stilt and bellhead appear at y15 commonly in huge rooms

but seems the spawnrates were nerfed in the later 1.20 patches

deepsplit and doubleheader are equally common, but i have YET to see a gearfoot naturally in my hundreds of hours

[fallow surge]

Hm, you have N armor tier being bypassed by N-1 attack tier?

[lyric marsh]

hm?

[lyric marsh]

it's intentional to intensify the curve

it's how i separated major combat

3 is the transition tier, 4 onwards is intense combat

[fallow surge]

There was a complaint that bowtorns after reducing their damage become more of annoyance, may be increase their damage (gearfoot to 4 or 6, an other linearly)?

[lyric marsh]

yes

gearfoot should be the major one though

nightmare and corrupt should be somewhat threatening

the rest are fine being mosquitoes

[fallow surge]

What about these values?

[lyric marsh]

yeah seems fine

[fallow surge]

I think shivers damage tiers are still too high

[lyric marsh]

i made stilt 6 so it can only be blocked by the highest tier tower shield

[fallow surge]

In order of inceasing strength the last 3 shivers should be in what order?

[lyric marsh]

deepsplit, stilt, bellhead

[fallow surge]

Can you please make some research later about spawn rates (in caves and during storms) about these 3?

[lyric marsh]

i only have experience

i have yet to properly codedive with the game

[fallow surge]

I heard tht deepsplit meant to be mini boss

ok

[lyric marsh]

deepsplit is just a storm special like any other

bellhead is the real miniboss

[fallow surge]

None of the monsters can oneshot anarmored player?

[lyric marsh]

they can

specials totally can and do

[fallow surge]

except for bellhead

player has minimum 16 hp, didnt it?

[lyric marsh]

oh i thought you meant vanilla

yeah here none can oneshot a default player

except the big guy

and if you have good nutrition bellhead can't either

[fallow surge]

Not sure if it is a good thing

[lyric marsh]

well it is an enemy you can ONLY encounter at bedrock

if you're naked there what are you doing

[fallow surge]

I mean, I'm not sure if it is a good thing that almost none can oneshot player

[lyric marsh]

well it makes it more fair than vanilla

storm starts, special swoops and you die

here you have a hit, then second chance, then death

i think that's better

[fallow surge]

Run away? Hide? Fear them, instead of fighting back...

Dunno

[lyric marsh]

well that just encourages "the strat"

making a 2x1 dirt house and afking

[fallow surge]

Hm, ok

[lyric marsh]

keep in mind shivers have a hardcounter not many people use, which is one block doorway

[fallow surge]

In general this will be big armor nerf...

[lyric marsh]

that allows them to be made more powerful

[lyric marsh]

big nerf to endgame armor*

which is a good thing, seeing as it made you immortal

this makes intermediate armor matter more and gives endgame armor something to fear

but if you don't like something speak up

[fallow surge]

Can you please make a summary about which armor effectively protects from what enemies (in terns of light/heavy and age, not specific items)?

And for what purposes it will be useful for

[lyric marsh]

well i think the spreadsheet explains it pretty well no?

[fallow surge]

ok

[lyric marsh]

it's more intricate than breakpoints, and that's a strength of co

[fallow surge]

Now, what about light armor builds when instead of cover everything with scale, you cover only something with plate?

How viable it is

[lyric marsh]

well it's about the same as brig with a few extra points

and seeing as chain is light why not add chain at that point

brig/plate slows you down, committing you more to combat

so you're naturally nudged towards chain

[fallow surge]

I mean how viable not protecting legs and arms, not getting debufs for aiming, man speed and walk speed, but still have some protection, though more random?

[lyric marsh]

not protecting legs and arms is deadly

gambler's build

[fallow surge]

Most of the debufs are conentraited in limbs

[lyric marsh]

yes legs slow you down the most, and that's the only part of co that encourages juggling

[fallow surge]

There is PlayerDamageModel sheet now that describes the chances and expected damage for each part

[fallow surge]

arms makes your slower to swing and harder to aim

[lyric marsh]

it pays for itself

speed is the bigger downside

it determines how fast the scary thing can catch up to you and start walloping

[fallow surge]

At what chances it stops paying of?

[lyric marsh]

probably like 5% for arms?

then you could take the risk of not equipping arms

[fallow surge]

Also consider, that you have second chance, that will protect you from bad luck of being oneshoted in unprotect zone

[lyric marsh]

and then it's on cooldown for 5 minutes

you can't rely on it

[fallow surge]

You can calculate how much you can rely on it

[lyric marsh]

i wouldn't keep arms and legs unprotected for any combat that lasts longer than 10 seconds that's for sure

[fallow surge]

In general if you wore light armor, you main objective is not being hit, so effective you will receive fewer hits

[lyric marsh]

but also the speed downside makes you more likely to get hit

with this balancing it overall would be an advantage

and ain't that all light armor needs to be

[fallow surge]

Look at expected damage column, this is in relative terms how much damage you will receive on average into specific bodypart

[lyric marsh]

but say it's a bellhead

that's 10 damage

two strikes and you're out

ignoring the damage it will do to you through your protected parts

protecting arms is 100% worth it for melee, protecting legs is worth it in combat (but can cause a juggling habit)

[fallow surge]

Probability of receiving two strikes into limbs from two strikes is 6%, and damage will be reduced by half

[lyric marsh]

well to be honest i don't really like the concept much of different damage for limbs

[fallow surge]

Why?

[lyric marsh]

vanilla shows chance is all you need to want to protect everything

because as you said, it may make you want to protect them less

halved damage

[fallow surge]

Thats the point, make partial armor viable

[lyric marsh]

if they took full damage you would not even think about leaving that armor out

[fallow surge]

Second chance is made purely for this

[lyric marsh]

i think that's honestly impossible with an rng system

it needs to be a much more intricate combat system

[fallow surge]

Why?

[lyric marsh]

when everything is a diceroll you either guarantee safety or take a very minor gamble

[fallow surge]

Thats just a way some ppl perceive risk, it is not objective

So you are averse to any risk, so your perception is scewed

(and it is like this for most ppl)

[lyric marsh]

sure this needs more input, but i would say it works as is

maybe if the rng system was different based on what is hitting you, now that is more of a factor

but i doubt that can be done?

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surgehey check the iron spear n other ones i think some are broken as they have the vanilla animations idk why

[fallow surge]

In steel light armor bellhead deals 11 damage, so it is much more lieky to die from it if you wore full light amor, than if you equip heavy armor but only for head and torso

[lyric marsh]

light armor would be more for snooping around in caves, not engaging with the most threatening enemy

and it would do its purpose of letting you survive

[fallow surge]

Partial armor is alternative to light amor, no?

[lyric marsh]

if you're okay with taking gambles, sure

but the vast majority of people minimize variables at all costs

especially in games with severe punishment like this

[fallow surge]

Fine, but I still want it to be objectively viable option

[lyric marsh]

different rng based on target not doable?

[fallow surge]

Seems to work fine...

[fallow surge]

Doable, there is api for that, but it is a lot of work to balance

[lyric marsh]

well if you want to make partial armor viable, that's your shot

[fallow surge]

Why?

[lyric marsh]

because as long as people are aware of the different odds based on what they're planning on fighting, it would potentially make them use partial armor

[fallow surge]

Why?

[hollow tulip]

wait wtf mine is broken

[fallow surge]

If it is always viable?

[hollow tulip]

maybe its common lib then

[lyric marsh]

yes

[fallow surge]

have you looked into expected damage column?

[hollow tulip]

overhaul lib*

[lyric marsh]

for example if shivers go for your legs and torso and that being the bulk of the chance, that might make someone forego arm protection

which makes ranged more viable, making that an option for the fight

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge i get this tho tf

[fallow surge]

If you make some enemies go for some parts and other for others, it will average chances and make this tactic objectively not viable

[lyric marsh]

well at least that's how i see it

when everything has the same odds, the strategy is the same

[fallow surge]

Ok, I understand it is a subjective aversion to risk, that is common, yes, but thats ok, I just want it to be objectively viable.

[lyric marsh]

objectivity is hard to gauge when chance is involved, and when rolling wrong even once can be a major setback

i think partial armor will be viable for more or less common targets

[fallow surge]

statistics allows you to gauge chance objectively

[lyric marsh]

but you will want to always armor up for the end threats

like a storm

[fallow surge]

rolling wrong once will trigger second chance and make you reevalute you life deceisions and get out of where you are

[lyric marsh]

given healing now is a timer based mechanic you may not get that chance

[fallow surge]

you are not meant to heal in combat anyway

[lyric marsh]

second chance only saves you in a chase if you have a way to escape within that small window

[fallow surge]

thats fine, I can add charges to it later

may be

[lyric marsh]

maybe if it gave you invulnerability for a few seconds

NOW we are talking

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge did you try out the iron spear, metric spear and steel spear they seem to have vanilla animations

[fallow surge]

or that

[fallow surge]

I tried iron and steel

[lyric marsh]

if second chance had an invincibility period i WOULD use partial armor

[fallow surge]

how long period?

[lyric marsh]

5 seconds to start

[hollow tulip]

wait can you send the file here?

like ur file of the mod ur using?

[fallow surge]

Hm, thats a lot

[lyric marsh]

not at all

in fact i was thinking 8 and downed it to 5

[fallow surge]

it is on my play setup, I updated it with mod updates, so all stuff is latest

[lyric marsh]

it doesn't guarantee survival but it gives you a shot

[hollow tulip]

thats weird i do get this error

[fallow surge]

unrelated to co

also modid ...

[hollow tulip]

weird

i have all the latest stuff

[fallow surge]

that is vanilla spear model, look for incompatibilities

[hollow tulip]

yea and its iron

[fallow surge]

vanilla like*

[hollow tulip]

a

[hollow tulip]

il try

[fallow surge]

Do you have bullseye installed?

[hollow tulip]

@fallow surge maybe it has something to do with dressmaker also yes

[lyric marsh]

so yeah i think a 5 second grace window will make taking chances significantly more viable

because currently second chance only gives you a safety net of a single extra hit, which against a shiver won't really save you

[fallow surge]

Ok, I will look into all this rebalance tomorrow

[lyric marsh]

this was enjoyable

[hollow tulip]

disable mods 1 by 1 to see whats conflicting ye?

@fallow surgeok i have disabled all the mods but the spear problem is still there

thats weird...

[fallow surge]

clear cache, restart the game. just disabling mods in mod manager does nothing

please, I'm too tired right now to be free customer support service

[hollow tulip]

only mods

[hollow tulip]

got it

[fallow surge]

🤦‍♂️

I specifically asked about bullseye earlier...

read bullseye moddb page

[hollow tulip]

oh

im sorry...

[lyric marsh]

oh i just remembered

shields will need to be retiered

they're balanced around the current iteration and will be broken if unchanged

maybe some further changes will be needed

[simple solar]

yeah so i tried just putting everything into the mods folder wher ethe game is rather than the folder where the one click installer is and it just works

I wish I knew why but I am not going to question it

[steady compass]

So is there any reason armor just isnt working for me? Like i can make it and equip it and everythingt but it just does... nothing? i tested a bit and a normal drifter hits me for 2 bars with no armor but then i put on a full set of plate armor and i still get hit for 2 full bars. And anytime i do get hit with armor on it loses no durability just stays at full.

[final garden]

Sounds like it may have been installed incorrectly/incompletely

[steady compass]

what do you mean, it literally was a fresh install with all the dependancies

[fallow surge]

update mods, look into logs

[steady compass]

it doesn't give any error, so what should i look into logs for?

also it was a fresh install, wdym update mods?

[fallow surge]

2 hours fresh?

[steady compass]

like, if i installed and updated in the last 2 hours? no..

[bitter galleon]

so that actually ended up breaking it even more

now when i open the server i can run around for a few seconds but it just kicks me out of the world

[fallow surge]

Good, now go and read logs

[bitter galleon]

where in the log? this thing ios fucking MASSIVE

ungodly amount of text

[fallow surge]

The end? If log is massive, then something gone very wrong, and you better fix it

[bitter galleon]

also it now breaking completely is a good thing?

[fallow surge]

Yes

It now instead of just not working crashes the game and writes into log why and what went wrong

I can try make it crash instantly though

[bitter galleon]

well doesnt crash game just kicks me to main menu

but ill try to look at log tho idk what im really looking for

[fallow surge]

Errors

[bitter galleon]

opening log now

[fallow surge]

Just send client-main and server-main logs here

[bitter galleon]

i think?

cause yeh it was working on 9.9 just armor not doing anything and 9.10 just closes server

[fallow surge]

Hm, and where are my logs that I added...

Ok, nvm, just update gloomeclasses, or remove it if update does not help

[bitter galleon]

will try

[fallow surge]

I will remove kick/crash part, just leave the logs...

[bitter galleon]

ayyyyyeeeeeeeee

what a fucking champion

it works now

so does my armor

[lyric marsh]

this coming rebalance seems perfectly timed for a 1.0 release..

[hollow pasture]

???

Just a tailored gambeson can almost nullify just about any surface drifter attacks, and steel scale should be more than enough to survive bear attacks

[lyric marsh]

well that's the thing

it only matters against insignificant threats

that's the big imbalance of co currently

weak threats matter too little, major threats matter too much

what i did yesterday makes it much more dynamic

weaker armor makes more of a difference and top armor no longer makes you immortal (you are still immortal in most situations with it)

this generally makes all armor significantly more viable and gives the progression tiers meaningful use cases and differences

[hollow pasture]

Just about everything deals more damage in vanilla than CO

[lyric marsh]

yeah the defense math lies to you

last time i checked 24x0.03 is not 3.19

but this is what the game currently has, and it honestly works pretty well

the balance between armors is a different story in vanilla, that's a can of worms

the changes i made to co defense math makes it like a version of vanilla balancing that makes more sense

i really think these changes will satisfy every playstyle

[vale moat]

not sure if this mod is the cause but i can't think of any other - my bear hide armor has a +6, +9, +9 for a total of +24% hunger increase. According to the wiki it should be 2% per piece

is it a known/reported issue, any clue from which mod it is if not this one?

[tender scroll]

Bear soul in armour, inherit Hunger of bear

Simple

[vale moat]

tbf i am also realizing now the fur clothes aren't properly heating me either...

it is -5 outside, i have the full fur set that should give +6.5 and my hunger rate still increases by 20% the moment i step outside of a room :/

the bear spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and frosty

[still wave]

wait, how much damage is the player expected to take from a bellhead or double head drifter in full steel plate+chain+tailored gambeson now?

[lyric marsh]

4

close to vanilla

might get changed

so far it's a functional draft that can be tweaked

the intent is that the only threat to endgame steel heavy armor is special enemies

with nightmare variants doing more then negligible damage (1)

nightmare bowtorn does 1.6, but bowtorn is the most well designed enemy in the game so it can do higher damage without skewing balance

so basically, if you liked the feeling of being immortal in steel armor you will still get that feeling, except for the very peak of endgame combat

[still wave]

damn, that's quite high for the material investment still IMHO

[lyric marsh]

still less than vanilla + more protective overall

and you have co weaponry at your disposal

[still wave]

yeah, and it's either that or being too easy anyway, so there is no perfect solution

[lyric marsh]

well this is the closest to a perfect solution

[still wave]

i think its cool to have really strong armor like CO has currently, since the armor already slow you down a lot, its even worse in vanilla

but to work with the current plan there would need to be a steel+ tier, like stainless steel or cast steel or something

[lyric marsh]

nah that would turn into terraria syndrome

for the game vs is, this is all it really needs

maybe as the game itself grows more sophisticated there will be newer stuff, but for the current state this balance is nice

[still wave]

i disagree, i like building infrastructure for stuff. And cast/stainless steel would need a lot of peripheral infrastructure to achieve

[lyric marsh]

and if you want immortality, the forgotten armory mods have co compatibility and have higher stats

[tranquil onyx]

This is normal - high warmth doesn’t give you resistance from suffering from that debuff when outside. If you are outside and it’s cold, and have adequate warmth bonus from clothing, you will suffer from that debuff regardless.

[still wave]

sadly yet another mod would not be an option for the server i play, so i guess we'll have to learn how to do json patches instead xd

[lyric marsh]

this is still not integrated mind you

malt hasn't begun implementing this yet (to my knowledge?)

[tranquil onyx]

Wiki lists vanilla values; CO typically makes it so certain parts impair certain attributes at varying rates, depending on where the armour is worn

[vale moat]

but the debuff is the same whether i wear the fur coat or not - i removed all my clothing and hunger rate stayed at 120% whether i had any clothes on or not, isn't that weird? when i stepped inside, it went back to 100

[vale moat]

that's why im asking here if that change is intentional, it seems like a drastic change that has nothing to do with combat balance anyway...

[still wave]

i've skimmed trough the discussion, and he seems pretty intent on implementing this eventually. Making it configurable would be a pain i'd imagine, but json patching it would be easier for some users perhaps

[tranquil onyx]

This is still vanilla behaviour - if it’s cold outside, you can’t escape not having that debuff through means other than being in a room, or IIRC being in caves

[lyric marsh]

i think it will be implemented then tweaked with feedback

[tranquil onyx]

Hunger-rate wise I’m not sure - Maltiez would have to justify that somehow

[fallow surge]

I haven't touched hunger and warmth mechanics, they are exactly as in vanilla

[vale moat]

hmm, then i guess i just misunderstood the warmth mechanics, seems clothes only exist to prevent cold damage but not hunger penalty

as for the bear armor hunger debuff, it must be another mod causing this then, thanks...

[vale moat]

well i couldn't let it go and checked out a fresh install with only CO:A (and dependencies) installed in creative

whether inadvertently or not, the mod does seem to make it so this armor causes a 24% hunger rate increase instead of the vanilla value of 6%

[earnest sand]

Im gonna pipe in in this old convo, this is a byproduct of the game not having enough surface threats. Ive been playing with all the different stone age mods (and wouldve played with the dino ones if they were updated) and when you have big cats hitting for 11 slashing and spawning in lacks of 4 the dmg reduction makes a huge difference and it balances out but in vanilla youre just gearing for nightmares and bears.

CO works really well for mods that add many surface threats especially ones that are way stronger than vanilla.

[lyric marsh]

bears being a high tier lacks the stakes and functional ai behavior to work

as i stated previously, a brown bear is effectively an endgame shiver that spawns on the surface in daytime

[earnest sand]

AI in general just doesnt aggro onto you when it should, animals have seeking ranges but sometimes you can run right past a glizzy bear and it doesnt aggro, idk if something changed with vanilla because i remember them seeking you out like a homing missile in the past.

[lyric marsh]

it's a bug, it explains why bears randomly deaggro or become completely passive

try it:

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/1422547858782949406

[earnest sand]

Oh ive noticed it too, it makes coralling animals a pita

I do a lot of taming and when animal just randomly decides to go back to passive taming becomes really frustrating

[lyric marsh]

if you keep running from a chasing mob, it will chase you forever

so until the game addresses that it should be balanced around that behavior

[earnest sand]

But if you break line of sight their object permeance or w/e its called shits the bed

[lyric marsh]

actually they don't rely on line of sight afaik

simply proximity

and i'm pretty sure that applies to all mobs

[earnest sand]

Really? This game gaslights the player in so many ways lol

[lyric marsh]

try a chicken or a bowtorn through a wall

they will run away

[earnest sand]

This game creates a lot of situations where instinctively you will be like "this is how A works" but its not actually how it works at all, but even so the same function continues to occur regardless of the myth being debunked. I forget the appropriate word for it.

I remember now- Its apophenia, this happens all the time in video games because of how jank they are under the hood. I was playing this one MP city builder and typically it would take us 30~ days on average to hit bronze so we all believed bronze could only occur on day 30 or later, but the dev debunked it saying thats not how it works, and yet it kept happening because the way everyone played the game just consequently resulted in that happening because of how players interacted with those underlying systems.

the great bronze age delusion

[lyric marsh]

a case of the players understanding the game better than the devs

many such cases

[earnest sand]

maltiez i have one problem with the arquebus, the lighting match goes out all the time especially in really wet worlds where theres ocean everywhere, just jumping out of a boat causes this problem. Is there anyway to make the igniting match to be lightable in crafting grid with a torch? The fact i have to relight it with a campfire everytime it goes out made me just go back to using the bossi.

[lyric marsh]

rightclick it on a torch

it can even be a torch in a holder

[timber narwhal]

I just had an idea to allow the ammo containers (Quivers, Sling Pouches, Firearms Ammo Pouch, Crossbow Quiver, Javelins Quiver.)
To be useable while mounted on a wall or leaning against the ground.
(I thought it would be cool to keep the bolts next to my crossbow that's mounted on the wall.)

[earnest sand]

https://tenor.com/view/dis-belief-surprised-oh-gif-10085527

[hollow pasture]

Are you talking about me saying vanilla does more damage?

[lyric marsh]

yes

[earnest forge]

Boo vanilla math

[lyric marsh]

or lack thereof

i don't even want to begin to know how they make 24x0.03=3.19

[earnest forge]

https://tenor.com/view/guy-long-hair-mustache-magic-shia-labeouf-gif-17741293

[lyric marsh]

but intentionally or not it does lead to an okay endgame balance

the problem being the combat itself

and the questionable vanilla armor balancing

[timber narwhal]

One of the numbers has to be wrong, or it's getting an extra number somewhere.

[earnest forge]

Or there's unpublished mechanics or some kind of universal bullshittery to balance out bad numbers

[lyric marsh]

my theory is it takes the armor percentage and the attack's damage and calculates some kind of minimum possible value

but no use thinking about that, we have co

and co makes sense

[hollow pasture]

Ahhh, I thought you meant CO was doing this 🤣

[earnest forge]

Maybe values being multiplicative or additive when you expect them to be otherwise

Or applying separately then averaging together

[hollow pasture]

Endgame steel plate vs Bellheads or any other tier 4 enemy is actually awful because of how much damage you take and how slow you are

Or is it tier 5? I forget, it's been so long since Maltiez opened Pandora's box and let his creation out upon the world

[lyric marsh]

yeah that's what i meant by bad armor balancing

[hollow pasture]

Ahhh, gotcha

[lyric marsh]

chain is just superior

[hollow pasture]

100%

[lyric marsh]

which is way cheaper and more practical

[hollow pasture]

Respectfully I am NOT forging 72 ingots into plates/chains again

[lyric marsh]

i did once

never again

in co it's cheaper, more effective and doesn't turn you into a tank (in terms of speed)

that won't change

[hollow pasture]

I was about to say, it's more like dragging a brick through mud 🤣

[mighty nacelle]

what's up with this error?

[earnest forge]

You didn't join the vivid cult, now you are error!

[floral kayak]

this might have been answered but a skill like Focused (+20% ranged damage, +30% ranged accuracy, +20% ranged distance) im assuming it influences this mods ranged weapons as well? or nah

[fallow surge]

CO removed all these bonuses from vanilla classes, so should be irrelevant unless you use some classes mod

[solid mist]

Oh it was CO that changed the tailored gambeson from no speed penalty to 1% penalty?

Or am i confused since i saw a discussion about the gambeson in this thread. The wiki said the tailored gambeson shouldnt affect movement speed

[lyric marsh]

that's for vanilla

completely different balancing

but speaking of armor speed penalties, i think they should be an equal split between chest and legs

it doesn't make sense that the part that takes half damage and is much less likely to get hit penalizes speed 3x more than the central part for protection

[fallow surge]

Why? For me it makes perfect sense

Dont wear legs if you dont want to

[lyric marsh]

i think it makes more sense balancing wise

so you feel the weight of chest plate armor with lighter legs for example

otherwise plate kinda just becomes the best option for chest even on lighter setups

[fallow surge]

I already explained the philosophy behind debufs, this wont be changed

[lyric marsh]

okay

[gentle dock]

Just change it yourself lmao

[lyric marsh]

i would prefer not to decentralize

[gentle dock]

you can lead a horse to water

[lyric marsh]

also is brig going to stay a directly worse plate instead of getting small debuff differences?

speed can stay the same, but maybe bumping the rest a little can create a niche

[fallow surge]

small differences do not matter, you wont feel +1% movement speed

[gentle dock]

as long as it's half the price of plate, yes it is

[lyric marsh]

not practically, but it makes a psychological difference

"it's worse than plate, but at least i swing 4% faster"

[gentle dock]

any outer armour other than bear or forlorn is for larp anyway

[warped oar]

Hey Maltiez. Got those crashes again related to using the number keys to quick swap items in the last 2 places of my inventory when using the sword sheath from the Quivers and Sheaths mod. When I take the sheathe and belt off, then put them back on, the issue seems to disappear for a while. I'm not sure if relogging with them on is causing a problem. I haven't really been able to narrow down the exact cause and circumstances leading up to the issue.
Attaching the client-main and server-main log files -->

If there's some way I can be more helpful, ping me.

[olive hazel]

hay im having a issue where after a bit i get like 10000+ errors involving cobat over haul im unable to post my crash log here but its over 133,600kb

[fallow surge]

upload on pastebin then

though you can probably read this logs and solve the problem

this would be much appreciated

[olive hazel]

pastebin? sorry kinda new to modding this

[fallow surge]

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=pastebin

ppl use it sometimes

[olive hazel]

at CombatOverhaul.CombatOverhaulAdditionalSystem.<>c__DisplayClass9_0.<ThrowException>b__0(Single _) in D:\Projects\VintageStory\CombatOverhaul\source\ModSystems.cs:line 140
at Vintagestory.Common.EventManager.TriggerGameTick(Int64 ellapsedMilliseconds, IWorldAccessor world) in VintagestoryLib\Common\EventManager.cs:line 132
at Vintagestory.Server.ServerMain.Process() in VintagestoryLib\Server\ServerMain.cs:line 859
2.10.2025 20:27:53 [Error] Exception: Was not able to find 'PlayerDamageModelBehavior'. Some other mod altered players behavior in a way that break other mods.
List of current player server entity behaviors:
EntityBehaviorRepulseAgents
EntityBehaviorNameTag
EntityBehaviorPlayerPhysics
EntityBehaviorCollectEntities
EntityBehaviorPlayerInventory
EntityBehaviorEntityStateTags
EntityBehaviorTemporalStabilityAffected
WearableStatsBehavior
InInventoryPlayerBehavior
EntityBehaviorDropCarriedOnDamage
CollidersEntityBehavior
PlayerSkinBehavior
DragonskinTraitBehavior
EntityBehaviorHealth
EntityBehaviorHunger
EntityBehaviorBreathe
EntityBehaviorPlayerRevivable
EntityBehaviorAimingAccuracy
EntityBehaviorTiredness
EntityBehaviorBodyTemperature
EntityBehaviorExtraSkinnable
EntityBehaviorIdleAnimations
FanaticBehavior
TemporalStabilityTraitBehavior
EntityBehaviorAsphyxiate
EntityDecoBehavior
EnchantmentEntityBehavior
PotionFixBehavior
its like 10k+ of this it seams

[fallow surge]

So, you know what to do then

Not sure why it spams these logs though

[olive hazel]

i just draged copyed just 1 of the 10k idk if there is any difference and i dont think i have anymod that changes 'PlayerDamageModelBehavior'

[fallow surge]

I mean you should'v seen this:

Some other mod altered players behavior in a way that break other mods.

[earnest forge]

Maltiez is pushing updates from the future now.

[olive hazel]

ya wtf how

[earnest forge]

[fallow surge]

I'm too effective

[fallow surge]

Ok, fine, just remove gloomeclasses or update it

[olive hazel]

what the hell i just disabled that before this dang bro got omnipresence

[fallow surge]

dont disable mods, exit the game, remove from folder, clear cache and only then start the game

[lyric marsh]

also i wonder why disabling mods is different from removing them

is the game that janky?

[tender scroll]

One doesn't purge cache or certain leftover data

[fallow surge]

Yes, it is the source of most of the reports of mods not working

[ripe egret]

That's a bit much imo. 2 or 2.5 should be a reasonable number for the time and material investment required to make a full steel plate armor + chain + tailored gambeson

Also, in that full tank build, you move very slowly, and your attack speed is significalty reduced, which makes killing enemies, especially when there are multiple of them time consuming even with the best melee weapons. So being able to tank a lot of hits is essential in a heavy armor.

[lyric marsh]

keep in mind that co heavy armor doesn't slow you down nearly as much as vanilla and you also have access to crowd control, (proper) blocking and parrying

it is only bellhead that does 4 damage

the other specials do 2-3

nightmares do ~1, corrupts do ~0.5

maybe bellhead damage can be lowered a bit but it should stay the scariest enemy

[ripe egret]

It makes a lot of sense when you lay it out like that. Also, with the proper hitboxes in the mod, I don't have to struggle with the game. Although I still find it a bit much, I will accept it

[ripe egret]

I'm with you on that one

[main tendon]

Hey, just reporting that switching between 1.11.18 and 1.11.17 of OverhaulLib does indeed halve my FPS.

[brave canyon]

Oh, make sure you update the classes. It’s been fixed for a while now.

[hollow pasture]

Historical armies would often forego leg protection. Especially late-Renaissance pikemen and Landsknecht were famous for this. Even the English during the 100 years war would fight without hose on, but that was for other reasons...

[hollow pasture]

Brigandine irl is oftentimes heavier than plate armor

[lyric marsh]

i know, i was talking more game design

but i don't feel too strongly about it

[hollow pasture]

Fair. I have a personal bias towards a historical/grounded feel to VS

[lyric marsh]

my main concern is that it could create a bad vanilla like juggling habit

[hollow pasture]

I apologize if that bias is a bit much

[lyric marsh]

i mean it's convenient for me, but idk what malt thinks about juggling

by juggling i mean, shiftclicking armor onto your hotbar, then rapidly equipping them when needed

co has a natural counter for juggling by consisting of three layers, but legs would be the exception

[hollow pasture]

Yeah, I get what you mean. I proposed an overhaul a long time ago that was more focused on the Player vs. Player interaction that had a type of "Squire" role

[hollow pasture]

If you play with armory, a slight counter to juggling is just the inventory space having everything separated causes

[lyric marsh]

i combine them into the finished piece regardless

but the hopefully upcoming rebalance + the second chance grace period will make me consider running new armor combinations

[hollow pasture]

The aforementioned balance to damage/protection tiers or the stat changes to brigandine you were proposing?

[lyric marsh]

the former

i have fine tuned the values today and now waiting patiently for the implementation and discussion that comes with that

shields will need to be retiered for example

[hollow pasture]

Shields are already quite strong and criminally underused in my opinion

Especially the light shields, but I have yet to really do as much testing as I'd like

[lyric marsh]

exactly, keeping them as they are with the new math would be too good

for example, the light hide shield would be able to block all surface threats except polars and parry corrupts

[hollow pasture]

Actually hold on, I'm surprised you don't use shields more when talking about trying to wear armor with lower penalties

Just wear less armor and pair it with a shield 🤣

[lyric marsh]

i see shields as an option, not the thing to balance around

if you're a parry god you don't need armor, or a shield

but playing with my friend who is quite a noob at the game with co really made me realize how hostile and disproportional it is to newcomers

[hollow pasture]

Bowtorn be damned

[lyric marsh]

for example i started testing a lot of theoretical light armor setups that don't force him to abuse guard and parrying, and it really showed me it isn't an option even at steel tier

[hollow pasture]

I don't think it's any crazier than the base game's complications. The only thing I could see being really bad for new players is the amount of options people have giving them choice paralysis

[lyric marsh]

this is what brought up the whole rebalance

[lyric marsh]

what vanilla does (and the only thing it does right) is separate its different parts into tiers

for example you can make someone a gambeson or a tin bronze lamellar set and send them on their way, knowing they'll be relatively safe on the surface

here you gotta deck your friend out in a full iron chain + plate setup to not worry about his safety jogging along on the surface

and light armor is about to close that gap, whereas now it's pretty negligible if not detrimental

[hollow pasture]

Gambeson+Iron chain should be enough for anything besides bears. Leaves you light enough to outrun them too

[solid mist]

does the perk archer and sniper from XSkill affect the muskets?

[lyric marsh]

bears make no sound, outrun you and never drop aggro

and do the damage of a y20 shiver, minus the weaknesses of a shiver

[hollow pasture]

They... growl

and I'm always able to outrun them

[brave canyon]

I mean… to be fair like. If you are wearing light armor, and refuse to use a shield…

[lyric marsh]

they growl only when they already noticed you

[lyric marsh]

very terrain dependent

[brave canyon]

That’s kinda your fault if you get hit and get hurt.

[lyric marsh]

in a direct speed competition, even fleetfooted cannot outrun a brown bear

[hollow pasture]

There's a mod to increase the frequency of when they growl, but they do it to themselves by default

[brave canyon]

It seems silly to say that it should be viable to go without a shield and use light armor.

You need skill for that for sure

[lyric marsh]

but shivers make passive noise making you aware of their presence, and they also have random seizures to give you the chance to escape

what i'm saying is, currently bears are endgame shivers that spawn on the surface, in daytime, and are less forgiving

my changes don't make bears non threatening mind you

they just make armor matter more for bears in the earlier tiers

for example a full bronze plate setup reduces a brown bear's damage to ~1

and as the plan is currently light steel armor will have that same protection

so in endgame you can be mostly safe on the surface

[brave canyon]

That kinda feels like it makes the bear not threatening fairly quickly, honestly.

[lyric marsh]

is that a bad thing?

[brave canyon]

It’s a bear those things are damn terrifying haha

[lyric marsh]

it's the surface after all

it's supposed to be traversed

not battled through

storms and y15 are the game's real combat events

[brave canyon]

It’s a survival game though

[hollow pasture]

This is where our opinions differ heavily then

[lyric marsh]

and you are surviving

[brave canyon]

Bears and Wolves are intended to be threatening.

[lyric marsh]

you made all that stuff

[brave canyon]

And yeah, I kinda agree with Corat.

[lyric marsh]

i am balancing around bear behavior

if devs fix ai, changes will follow

[brave canyon]

Wouldn’t it be better to just like, address those problems instead?

[lyric marsh]

currently they aggro you indefinitely unless you exploit a bug that makes them passive

you may have triggered it without knowing many times

[brave canyon]

That’s … kinda the point, they are supposed to be hostile?

I’m really confused what your issue is with the bear AI?

[lyric marsh]

so you're saying anyone pursued by a bear is less than iron plate armor should just die or parry every attack?

[brave canyon]

That’s not a fair statement at all.

The game isn’t starting with you already aggro’d by a bear as soon as you load in.

[lyric marsh]

the intent is not trivializing co, but making it have a curve when it comes to defense

[brave canyon]

An important part of the survival aspect is scouting properly.

[lyric marsh]

i have spawned into a world to a bear aggroing

[brave canyon]

That’s unfortunate but due to RNG it can happen.

It’s an edge case though, not something to balance around

[lyric marsh]

well the game lies to you currently

mobs detect you simply by proximity

[brave canyon]

Yeah?

How is that lying?

[lyric marsh]

so if a bear happened to notice you behind a hill, that's an aggro

too bad

[brave canyon]

That must be a really small hill

[lyric marsh]

vanilla worldgen for you

[brave canyon]

The problem lies in Vanilla Worldgen then, not the bears :P

And not the combat situation either

[lyric marsh]

well as i said, this is the way the game is currently

as more complexity gets added, and the game changes these things, radical changes may come

[brave canyon]

And frankly part of the survival aspect is still your fault for ending up in a situation like that as well.

[lyric marsh]

currently they are far too rigid and unfair to be made high tier enemies

[brave canyon]

It’s important to take into account the landscape as you are traveling.

So if you see a small hill, there’s no telling what’s on the other side. You should approach with caution.

[lyric marsh]

did you forget birch bush fields?

where you can't see everything but everything can see you?

[brave canyon]

Again, it’s just scouting, and moving with purpose.

If you are worried about that, try taking a vantage point first

[lyric marsh]

well see i would like it to be this way, but currently the game just is not like that

[brave canyon]

Look over the bushes plains

[lyric marsh]

i WANT animals to be much more immersive with their behavior

but i assess their behavior for what it is

[brave canyon]

Then I think you should address your problem at its core, not try to change something that’s only coming up as a result of it?

[lyric marsh]

not my problem

i can just run naked and parry

but playing with my friend gave me that perspective that there is indeed an imbalance

and making him a full set of endgame armor is sidestepping the issue

[brave canyon]

Use a shield?

[lyric marsh]

shields should never be the default

[brave canyon]

It’s… not.

[lyric marsh]

they are an option to give you an edge, not a mandatory piece of kit just so you can survive picking berries

[brave canyon]

But like. My dude. You say that your friend has this issue, your solution is given in the form of shields, which are relatively easy to acquire and maintain even early on…

If you refuse to use it, then… I guess reap what you sow?

[lyric marsh]

yes but he can't parry

so i look for alternatives, start testing setups, realize they are just detrimental

[brave canyon]

You don’t need to parry with a shield

[lyric marsh]

most of the armor and progression options are directly detrimental

[brave canyon]

You can just hold block

I kinda disagree.

[lyric marsh]

i know, i tested everything

a tower shield makes you a sitting duck, you can block that bear but you can't escape it

so what do you do

[brave canyon]

Go with your friend.

[lyric marsh]

(assuming the passivity bug doesn't exist)

he wants to travel, so i want to be able to make him an intermediate armor and know he is going to be fine

with a shield for extra safety

[brave canyon]

And it doesn’t need to be a tower shield, there are regular shields as well.

[lyric marsh]

not giving him a light shield and saying "learn how to use this until we have iron plate"

[brave canyon]

Use a medium one?

[lyric marsh]

medium shield?

there are only small and large

large ones give a 10% speed penalty offhanded and extra 50% on block

light shields have lower tiers but they have a parry and no speed penalty

[brave canyon]

Oh, that must be a change since I played with it last. I remember there being the round shields and such that have blocking. Are you not using Armory?

[lyric marsh]

i am using armory

those are large shields

[brave canyon]

Oh, then there’s tower shields on top of that?

[lyric marsh]

no, that's just looks

they are all identical in function

just different tiers

[brave canyon]

I mean, with lighter armor and a good large shield, it should be relatively fine. That speed penalty is basically as if you had the heavier armor.

[lyric marsh]

no, the light armor will be detrimental

i stresstested a lot of scenarios

[brave canyon]

Light armor is like, leather and stuff

[lyric marsh]

and even with steel scale, the best light armor option i came to the conclusion of "this is negligible/detrimental"

[lyric marsh]

oh actually HE is the one who tried that

[brave canyon]

Yeah, scale isnt light armor

[lyric marsh]

he was very disappointed by the performance

scale is light armor contextually

[brave canyon]

I mean, yeah, it’s leather. It’ll tank a little bit, but it won’t let you tank.

[lyric marsh]

we are not arguing reality here

it has the same downsides as chain, except takes up both middle and outer and has higher stats

that's effectively the light armor class

[brave canyon]

It’s not though? It’s more medium to heavy.

[lyric marsh]

chain + leather is heavier

[lyric marsh]

then what is light armor?

gambeson?

[brave canyon]

Yeah, it protects against blunt mainly though.

[lyric marsh]

just gambeson will only protect you from surface drifters and nothing else

who are already a non threat

[brave canyon]

It’s what real archers wore, basically.

[lyric marsh]

yes but i don't consider that armor

[brave canyon]

shrugs

It’s part of the armor kit.

It’s armor.

[lyric marsh]

yes, it's the most basic protective layer, it doesn't actually protect you on its own (except the aforementioned surface drifters)

[brave canyon]

It’s not supposed to, that’s the whole point of the split damages

[lyric marsh]

it adds tiers to the things worn above it

[brave canyon]

Build for what you want to defend against.

[lyric marsh]

well that's what sparked the entire discussion

there is no middleground

you cannot be reasonably protected, either completely unprotected or completely overprotected

[brave canyon]

Then why not come up with a different armor thing entirely?

[lyric marsh]

i did

i redid the tier damage math

malt gave me guidelines to work by and i rebalanced everything according to them

[brave canyon]

Sturdy Leather armor, better then leather, might have better strength against pierce and stuff then regular leather. It’s been hardened.

[lyric marsh]

the end result is satisfactory

instead of piling on a flawed system, improve the system

nothing is trivialized, in fact a full steel plate setup no longer makes you immortal

it makes you reasonably immortal

aka most situations

[brave canyon]

I still feel like this is entirely a self fabricated issue, like. You have options, use heavier armor, use a shield, get skilled at parries, dodge even, if needed grab like, a dodge roll mod on top of that…

If you don’t want to take these options though, it’s like… of course the Bears might be problems. They are supposed to be? It’s Man Vs. Nature?

I don’t think armor needs a rebalance because of bears.

I disagree that it’s flawed at all, I have a blast with it.

[fallow surge]

Vanilla sturdy leather needs rework, cause it seems that process that vanilla uses irl results in softer leather more suitable for clothes, and not sturdier one.

[lyric marsh]

lower/lighter armor is too weak and endgame armor is too strong

all it does is create a curve

it gives everything a place to shine, even if sometimes extremely niche

[brave canyon]

Oh huh, interesting.

[lyric marsh]

and that's sandbox games

[brave canyon]

The point of lighter armor isn’t to be strong though.

[lyric marsh]

it isn't

[brave canyon]

The tradeoff is either defense, or mobility.

[lyric marsh]

wait i should just let you look at the spreadsheet

to compare with the current one

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1owlsNH6uyCS82NhcGgWuN-7kEsNK2VoDTUP_-iMqEbk/edit?gid=1561957314#gid=1561957314

there are notes above, light and heavy

it's the light and heavy armor for each tier, 1 - stone, 2 - copper, 3 - bronze, 4 - iron, 5 - steel

it doesn't make light armor strong, it just makes it reliable

giving you the impact of "good thing i wore that"

currently STEEL scale armor gives you the impression of "this is worthless"

let alone all the previous ones

[brave canyon]

Okay so, what is lighter armor for you?

[lyric marsh]

scale

scale + gamb, but the way it's balanced here is as follows

copper - scale + jerkin
bronze - scale + jerkin
iron - scale + gamb
steel - scale + t gamb

you still take a ton of damage against major threats in light armor, and as you can see the heavy armor is LEAGUES better

scale armor is just meant to let you get away with your life in a dangerous encounter, for the progression tier you're in

this is a niche that does not exist in current co

all out or all in

many people say co is too hard early and too easy in endgame

it's because it's true

it's a major hump that you overcome, before it you are too weak and after it you are too strong

progression needs to be felt

[brave canyon]

Scale is heavier than chain, it’s supposed to be.

[lyric marsh]

well it's currently balanced the way it is, and it is highly functional that way

game design and realism is always a major compromise

realism has a place in games where it makes sense from a design standpoint

[final garden]

Why is "realism" only ever used as the excuse for making something worse in games?

[lyric marsh]

if something fits a game's design and is realistic, that's great

if something is realistic but clashes with an experience, that is not great

[gentle dock]

because it is lmao

[lyric marsh]

exactly

check the spreadsheet

this is what it will probably be like soon

[gentle dock]

Forlorn + Tailored Gambeson is just what scale wants to be but cant

[brave canyon]

I’m not saying make anything worse though? I’m saying what would make more sense is to add a lighter armor type, like half-plate or something.

[lyric marsh]

scale already serves that purpose

you can make scale, but you cannot put anything over it

[gentle dock]

which makes it useless as armour

[lyric marsh]

or you can make chain, worse by itself but can be topped with insanely strong brig or plate

[lyric marsh]

did you see the spreadsheet

[gentle dock]

yes, I use it often myself

Scale is still useless

[lyric marsh]

no, mine

tiers are being redone

[gentle dock]

is this in anyway official?

[lyric marsh]

numbers at top show the value of the tier's light and heavy armor

well, malt did imply he would be implementing this into co

i think there will be some further changes but this is a good guideline

i am satisfied with this, but further discussion is welcome

[gentle dock]

outside of the occasional leg/arm hit, this isnt going to change much for my playstyle

[lyric marsh]

is that a bad thing?

[gentle dock]

no idea, i dont really care about enemy rebalance

just make scale a middle layer and slightly better than chain with worse steady aim/manipulation debuffs

[lyric marsh]

but that would mean rebalancing heavy armor as well

that creates too many variables

[gentle dock]

well your version of light armor doesnt work right now because taking up both slots massively kneecaps scale as a lategame option and very few players are going to spend the cost of plate on an armour only useful for surface exploration

the existence of Forlorn Hope armour just makes scale look worse as light armour also

[lyric marsh]

bg/fh are special armors

[gentle dock]

they're not hard to find

[lyric marsh]

i'm considering primarily progression

not hard to find, but you need the money to buy them and then restore them

[gentle dock]

Gears are more common if you do every temp storm and explore

[lyric marsh]

yes i agree

[gentle dock]

you also may find luxuries while exploring

[lyric marsh]

but that's still alt progression

[gentle dock]

and this isnt even getting into other mods like better ruins which more or less guarantees you multiple sets of forlorn hope armour after exploring everything

[lyric marsh]

i hate betterruins

[gentle dock]

too bad

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I uh, I really don’t think this is needed. Or at least if you want to make scale more useful, instead of rebalancing tiers and stuff, just… you know, adjust scale armor?

[lyric marsh]

you'd be surprised

[gentle dock]

nah i wont

[lyric marsh]

this is the main reason i see co being hated

[gentle dock]

tailored gambeson exists and people love that shit in vanilla

[brave canyon]

I literally see people complaining and never stating why :P

[gentle dock]

the problem is that every outer armour niche has more or less been fulfilled already

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I don’t think it’s really needed then.

[gentle dock]

i wouldnt mind removing scale lol

[brave canyon]

Eh, I think it could be repurposed

[lyric marsh]

if there's one common complaint i can extract is that lighter and earlier tier armors do not make a perceivable difference (to be fixed) and giving steel a light option for comfortable surface exploration and light caving will be perfect for most players

[gentle dock]

but I think shoving scale into the middle layer would be an okay compromise

[brave canyon]

It’s also wonderful drip

Earlier tier armors are intended to be earlier tier…?

[lyric marsh]

yes but they don't make a PERCEIVABLE difference

the reaction is not "this isn't good enough", it's "this is useless and i wasted time making this"

[gentle dock]

just give me straight numbers, what are the stats of steel scale going to be in your rework?

[lyric marsh]

if people can see the difference but still fail at what they want to accomplish, they acknowledge they need to progress more and upgrade

[gentle dock]

currently I'm just hearing light armor and I barf at that concept

[brave canyon]

I mean, they work perfectly fine. I really don’t see what you mean.

[lyric marsh]

instead of taking the message that armor is useless

for example here, if you make bronze scale and try to fight a brown bear, you will get your shit pushed in but you will see the armor reduced a twoshot to a 4 shot

that is significant and gives you the feedback of armor working

you either go "i can reapproach this" or "i need to upgrade"

[gentle dock]

how is this working?

[lyric marsh]

when you take 12 instead of 16 damage nothing changes

conclusion: armor is useless

[gentle dock]

Our latest flagship warship only capsized partway while we were launching it out of the drydock, this must mean it's working then!

[lyric marsh]

it's a feedback gap

[final garden]

I wasn't saying you were, I just meant as a whole, that's often how it seems. Scale strikes me as medium, not light

[brave canyon]

Yeah, I agree there

[gentle dock]

a new player is just gonna be mad they wasted so much resources on scale armor lmao

[brave canyon]

Scale is kinda heavy. Just like Chainmail, it’s surprisingly heavy

[lyric marsh]

like i said, the intention of light armor is not to fight effectively but to SURVIVE effectively in the progression tier you're in

this is a much bigger niche than you think

[brave canyon]

But solid plates of metal would be even heavier

A bear is meant to be one hell of a feat to run into.

[final garden]

Can't you currently pull off "half-plate" just by wearing a chestplate + helmet and some lighter equipment

[gentle dock]

yes

[brave canyon]

Yeah, you can totally

[gentle dock]

you can just wear a cuirass and no arms etc

[final garden]

Not sure why people seem to think we need a new light option (not that doing so would be bad)