Combat Overhaul

[hallow bolt]

Personally I would just give enemies "light protection" vs the damage type they're weak to instead of no protection

Because a flint spear and steel spear vs a bear having the same effective armor pen is a bit off

A simple "0, 1, 2, 3" resistance to the respective enemy tier (surface, deep, correct, nightmare) would make enemies vulnerable to their respective weakness but not helpless to the point where 10 flint spears and a dream is how you kill bears

[graceful bridge]

I'm fine with this, because Flint and Steel do differing amounts, so you'll still be better off using steel.

[hallow bolt]

I suppose but its only by 0.5 damage per tier so the difference is pretty negligible

Well flint vs steel is huge but you get what I mean

[green shadow]

windlass is every effective and nailing all drifter variants to the wall

[hallow bolt]

Isn't Windlass a steel crossbow?

[green shadow]

yes

[hallow bolt]

Then I would hope so lol

It has something like 9 piercing iirc

[green shadow]

tier 7

[hallow bolt]

Ah

So only nightmare can even begin reducing its damage

[green shadow]

tier 3 drifters die to it, tier 4 too

[hallow bolt]

Indeed, crossbows can bruteforce through sheer damage

[green shadow]

if you have the time, make a creative world and see what kind of damage it does

clockmaker always oneshots sawblade locust with it, other classes oneshot one a headshot, i think

[hallow bolt]

Iirc its something stupid high like "2.3x multiplier"

[green shadow]

4.3x

[hallow bolt]

Oh

[hallow bolt]

Refer to this then

[green shadow]

steel bolt does 40 damage with it i belive

[hallow bolt]

Weirdly, Iron, bronze, and meteor iron do the same damage

[hallow bolt]

All classes will 1-hit on headshot

There's no ranged damage buffs in CO

Though other mods might influence it like Rustbound magic

[keen veldt]

you can use higher tier ammo wdym

[hallow bolt]

But not the class themselves

[river glacier]

clockmaker has the mech enemies damage bonus though, does that not work with ranged weapons?

[hallow bolt]

Not sure

That would be an interesting exception but I haven't tested

[ionic finch]

@fallow surge so im myself and my friendss were wondering if youre open to an idea for your combat mod?
training weapons made from sticks/wood that do low (like really low) damage but act like the other weapons for training reasons?

[prisma basin]

Ooh,the armour rework got pushed! Time to test fly this!

[ionic finch]

love this mod deeply very nice combat add on

[charred river]

Training weapons would be great

[ionic finch]

be able to do some rp sparring and such

[charred river]

It would help with learning the different angles

And how to parry

[candid warren]

Combat overhaul is causing serious fps drops on the server, can anyone help?

There are 60 people in it so maybe its because the large player count? I really don't know, but fps drop is fixed when the mod is removed

[ionic finch]

i love the combos you can pull off the guard and a feint attacks

[charred river]

It’s a code heavy mod. Some people just probably can’t handle it.

Best you could do is ask for better optimization.

I doubt it’s been tested with 60 people either so it probably has to calculate for everyone

[prisma basin]

I believe the proper term for that is parry and riposte.
And yes,I love doin' that.

[candid warren]

so the best option is to wait? I thought maybe that was a common issue for the servers

[charred river]

Wait, or avoid altogether. It isn’t worth ruining your player’s experience.

[candid warren]

since it's a roleplay server, I really wanted this mod to stay, it's perfect for it

thanks for your answer

[charred river]

It’s a shame for sure.

[hallow bolt]

Already exists

Someone made a mod for exactly this but idk the name as I just stumbled upon it

[hallow bolt]

Pull out pistol -> shoot target -> if target is alive -> pull out 2nd pistol and shoot -> if target is alive... 😎

[mellow light]

Honestly, the only problem with the method is the Resonance Archive

You can't place down light sources and have to sit in the dark lol

I did that. It was pain

[prisma basin]

Yeet the lantern.

[mellow light]

Lanterns produce light when dropped?

[prisma basin]

All lit light sources do.

Torches go out when thrown into water,though.

[ionic finch]

https://tenor.com/view/started-blasting-gun-eyeglasses-so-anyway-i-started-blasting-gif-16955226

[prisma basin]

But yeah. A baldrick of pistols can handle most combat encounters in the Resonance Archives. However,against the Eidolon,you will never have the time to reload. So have a melee sidearm.

And this is as a *Clockmaker,*who reloads guns 50% faster.

[mellow light]

I genuinely didn't know this, thank you for that info

[viral latch]

hey folks had a ll server launch using CO. tweaked it for combat preferences if anyones interested in helping me test that later.

[mellow light]

Genuinely is, shoot all your pistols in its face, pull out sword and start wacking

[prisma basin]

If you still have targets after seven shots,you either *missed,*or you found several Locust nests on the same spot.

[mellow light]

Or bring bossis and pull twice the shots, altho idk the DMG diff

[prisma basin]

The bossi does more damage. The difference is you need to stop in order to reload it,and it reloads much more slowly.

Oh,and it's two handed or bust.

[ionic finch]

found it thankyou

[mellow light]

Fair, but during eidolon, you ain't reloading anyway

[ionic finch]

native would be cool but this works 🙂

[prisma basin]

A pistol,at least,allows you to hold something in the left hand while aiming and shooting. Gotta vacate the left hand to reload,though.
Which,admittedly,you won't be doing against the Eidolon.

[mellow light]

The only thing I don't like about CO is the Falx doesn't have a buff against Rust

The thing literally says it's for killing the unnatural

[prisma basin]

It sorta does,though.

It has a higher damage tier than same material swords.

[mellow light]

Fair but I was thinking a straight DMG buff

Maybe bypasses resistances?

[prisma basin]

That's what damage tier does.

A falx outright kills harder than a more standard sword of the same material.

[mellow light]

Oh

(can you tell I'm not super familiar with how it all works?)

[prisma basin]

Vanilla mechanic.

If damage tier surpasses protection tier,then the protection provided at that tier is severely reduced.

[mellow light]

Gotcha

[thin wing]

The steel falx's damage tier is high enough that nothing resists it as well (at least for monsters, i don't know if like a polar bear has higher than 7 slash resistance)

This does mean the steel war hammer is only worth making for the aesthetic or if you have a class bonus for it

[prisma basin]

And a Blackguard with a steel falx is just gonna be a blender.

[keen veldt]

would warhammer be better in pvp?

[thin wing]

I pay 0 attention to pvp

[keen veldt]

lmao

[prisma basin]

PvP is not a focus of CO.

[thin wing]

Neither the vanilla game nor CO are built for pvp and pvp kinda sucks

[keen veldt]

Ik it’s not the focus

but guns for example definitely help PVP etc

[thin wing]

If I wanted pvp I'd play Mordhau lol

[keen veldt]

pvp and pve is both cool

[thin wing]

I don't think getting oneshot by a musket is super fun either tbh

[keen veldt]

Oh god mordhau and the feints

Haha

[keen veldt]

me and my friends pvp w arquebus usually or bossI it’s pretty fun

when we use iron chain etc

it’s a sandbox survival game after all

[hallow bolt]

ironically, guns are kind of shit in pvp the instant someone puts on gambe

[hallow bolt]

a drifter wrote this UwU

[prisma basin]

I genuinely wonder why the vocal elements of the CO community never seem to wear their layers.

They. Exist. To. Be. Used.

[hallow bolt]

yeah I noticed that too

I get some debuffs are pretty harsh like manipulation debuff on Brigade

but just don't wear it all the time lol

[prisma basin]

Precisely!

And if you really don't like manipulation penalties,then go without arm armour.
PIECES. EXIST.

[hallow bolt]

personally I think some people just want to be "brain turned off" when it comes to armor

but that's literally the opposite of what CO is about

[prisma basin]

Oh,so people refuse to meet the game/mod on its terms,demanding the game/mod to be something it's not.

[hallow bolt]

like I have my issues with CO but simple config changes fixed 99% of my issues

[zenith mesa]

Well thats cause its not worth it (up until this update maybe)

[prisma basin]

Which is,***COINCI-FUCKING-DENTIALLY,***my number one beef with people who shit on Morrowind.

[hallow bolt]

it depends on the armor imo

[zenith mesa]

Mathing it out before the newest update, one of the best things I could do is wear full plate and nothing else and im basically immune to every enemy except blunt damage enemies

[hallow bolt]

like chain armor is shit without layers while Scale is fine without it

[zenith mesa]

Chain armor sucks and even if it could be good, it makes you way too hungry

[prisma basin]

Clockmaker.
Gamboised cap and leg armour,gambeson body armour.
Chain coif,chain shirt,chain leg armour.
Open helm,cuirass,plate leg armour.
Borderline invulnerability for basically no felt penalties,especially in ranged combat,where the Clockmaker excels.

[zenith mesa]

I havent seen the newest update

[prisma basin]

Chain armour is part of a system.

[zenith mesa]

So?

[hallow bolt]

"chain armor sucks" lol

[prisma basin]

Even in *vanilla,*it was part of a system! It was used to make plate!

[hallow bolt]

yeah I forgot the side of people that don't understand how the armor works

[zenith mesa]

Well yes but this isnt vanilla

[prisma basin]

OF COURSE A SINGLE COMPONENT OF A SYSTEM WILL SUCK WHEN REMOVED FROM ITS SYSTEM!

[hallow bolt]

I just ignore them

[prisma basin]

A BROKEN MACHINE WILL NOT FUNCTION!

[zenith mesa]

I understand how the system works, you dont have to talk to me like im an idiot

[hallow bolt]

this tells me all I need to know

[thin wing]

At least in the prior system it's easier to think of chain as an optional add-on to plate instead of a standalone armor

[hallow bolt]

don't really care to go any further after seeing that

[prisma basin]

"Makes me hungy."
Meals exist.

[hallow bolt]

indeed, though chain was great for "fuck bears"

I HATE bears

[prisma basin]

Bring a crock,some fat or wax,and a bowl.

[zenith mesa]

Im talking about pre-armor update here so bear with me:
Theres no reason for me to spend the resources making chain when I could spend the resources making plate instead, which will do the same hunger, better defense and negligible downside increases. It's really not that bad to just wear full plate and you dont need more than like, 10 slash defense anyway.

If theres a really tough enemy, you should be avoiding getting hit to begin with.

Everyone else can't really hurt you.

[prisma basin]

Aah yes. The Dark Souls gatekeeper defense.

"Just roll better."

[zenith mesa]

Its not that

If I enter a room with 10 enemies and one of them is a tier 6 enemy and the rest are tier 3, the tier 3 enemies cant really hurt me so I might as well focus on the one that can. Then I can use the mechanics provided such as parrying and blocking to avoid damage and dispatch said tougher enemy.

[prisma basin]

Mail was designed from the outset,both in vanilla and in CO,to be part of a system with plate. It's why in vanilla,plate demands mail as a crafting component. It's why in CO,mail occupies the middle layer and plate occupies the shell layer,while scale occupies both layers. If you don't want to bother with mail or plate,scale exists and is better than mail or plate alone.

But demonstrably worse than plate and mail together.

[zenith mesa]

You may be misunderstanding me here, the reason to go for plate alone and not chainmail is not because chainmail is useless but because the downsides received for wearing it (pre update) outweigh the benefit increase over plate, when all you really need is a gambeson.

[prisma basin]

I'm not seeing why mail is worthless.

Protection's protection.

Damage reduction's damage reduction.

Wearing all three layers,I was borderline invulnerable in my old save.

[hallow bolt]

not sure why you would even bother with plate or scale or chain

just wear exoskeletons UwU

[zenith mesa]

Chainmail serves a function that is superseded by plate armor, and sometimes I would consider my food a more valuable resource than even more slash protection when im already almost immune to slash damage with plate alone.

Thats why.

[prisma basin]

The only time I ever took meaningful damage was when RNG rolled attacks on my arms,which I didn't armour up more than gambeson,or my neck and face,which were left open because of my choice of coif and open helm. Otherwise,I could box with a polar bear and win.

You see,your food argument would hold weight if meals didn't exist.

However,meals do exist,and they arrest your hunger bar's decline for several minutes every time you eat.

[hallow bolt]

you can also use pies

they also get the "turn off hunger decay" thing

though sadly, it's not as effective in my experience

[zenith mesa]

Meals are nice for sure but they aren't always available as an option. Sometimes you don't have that and even so, its nice to not have 180% hunger loss because you're wearing superfluous protection.

[prisma basin]

By the time you have metal armour,you're past food scarcity.

With copper comes everything you need to make greenhouses.

[zenith mesa]

Not always true but usually true.

There are edge cases. My current home on my playthrough is in a low food area aside from the farm I have. The farm took a while to set up so food was a big issue for a while for me.

Anywho, I gotta go. Take care.

[prisma basin]

Movement speed penalties don't mean much,since the only enemies that actively try to flee only do so at a leisurely stroll,allowing an armoured up behemoth to sprint up to them.
Hunger rate penalties don't matter,because of how meals and pies work.
Healing effectiveness penalties don't matter,because you're taking so little damage from all sources that you can postpone first-aid until after the fighting,where you can safely strip armour to apply bandages or eat muffins.
Ranged accuracy penalties are critical to consider while playing as a ranged combatant,but headgear options exist that completely lack them,while still providing excellent protection,if reduced coverage.
Manipulation penalties are critical for ranged combatants and something worth considering for melee combatants,but they can be avoided entirely by not armouring up your arms beyond a gambeson,and shots to the arm deal half damage anyways,so it's not much of a loss in most cases.

@hallow bolt
Am I making any degree of sense to anyone not named Riddle78?

[hallow bolt]

I mean both sides are entrenched into their opinions which is perfectly fine

With the new update, the "meta" likely changed

Well its still EXOSKELETONS BABY WOOOOOO

[prisma basin]

Exoskeletons are anomalous in the armour balance sphere. It's like comparing T51-b to a loincloth.

[uneven herald]

ranged penalties don't really matter for hunters due to the scaling of stats

[hallow bolt]

I'll never be able to make an exoskeleton suit...

[hallow bolt]

I know but its funny to even have that option

[hallow bolt]

Only really matters in hunting imo due to headshots at long range

Fucking deer always move their heads when I fire my bolt...

[prisma basin]

Blackguard with a crossbow: <Aim wibbles all over Hell's half acre as if he just slammed back fifty litres of blackcurrant brandy,but is actually stone cold sober>

[hallow bolt]

Lol yeah blackguards on suicide watch when hunting

My team's blackguard always ignores deer now

[prisma basin]

I just chase,or lead,my prey into spike pits with my Blackguard run.

[hallow bolt]

"I missed a bear. You have to be shitting me"

[hallow bolt]

Indeed, we reduced animal swim speed to 150% (from 200%) for him lol

[uneven herald]

it's possible to hunt as blackguard just running at deer til they bump into a cliff base or water

[prisma basin]

So,my RA plan for my Blackguard run:
Bronze full plate. Head to toe. No compromises.
Bronze falx. Bronze longsword. Bronze knife.
Heap of healing muffins.
Crocks,bowl,and fat/wax to re-seal the crocks with.
Lantern for yeeting.
The longsword will be my primary weapon,held in both hands.
If the space is too tight for the longsword,I use the falx. The knife's for looting.
Fight the Eidolon like it's the Demon of Hatred.

[uneven herald]

i had somewhere i wanted to go anyways ™

[hallow bolt]

Eidolon does blunt damage

[uneven herald]

you can also incorporate javelins with a javelin quiver

[hallow bolt]

Use gambe or Jerkin for blunt resist

Should help mitigate the damage more

[prisma basin]

Cool. Full plate ain't just plates.

I actually know how armour works,remember.

Plate,mail,and gambeson. It's not full plate without all three layers.

[hallow bolt]

I know but not going to assume you know what damage type Eidolon does

So better to inform

[prisma basin]

With how Blackguards handle ranged combat,especially in full wargear?
Yeah,nope.

[prisma basin]

I mean... it gorilla claps and DK slams. If that ain't blunt,nothing is.

[uneven herald]

nah javelins handle well even with shit ranged

[prisma basin]

Besides,its claps are easy to parry,and its DK slams are bunnyhopped.

[hallow bolt]

Agreed

[uneven herald]

they're like one of the few things that are usable at their effective range for blackguard

[prisma basin]

When I said I'll be fighting it like it's the Demon of Hatred,I wasn't kidding. Stand my ground and parry what I can,and hop what I can't.

[hallow bolt]

You can also use a javelin quiver so they don't use as much inventory space

[uneven herald]

yeah javelin quiver

[hallow bolt]

Feral seraph latches onto the eidolon until they die or the eidolon dies UwU

[prisma basin]

It worked for my Clockmaker.

Quarterstaff parries are obscene.

[hallow bolt]

Quarterstaff is insane

[prisma basin]

Oh,and would ya look at that.
Longsword parries have identical protection and coverage.

[hallow bolt]

A weapon that has parry + long range + ignores defenses of rust/machine enemies lol

[prisma basin]

Honestly,I think two-handed weapon parries should get their protection tier knocked down. Not by a lot,mind you. But enough to let some chip damage through.

[hallow bolt]

I mean uh wow Quarterstaff needs a buff I'm so sad on how weak the quarterstaff is

[prisma basin]

I legit never felt the alleged reach of a staff.

[hallow bolt]

Its long enough for me

[prisma basin]

Every time I tried,I missed. I had to get right up in the enemy's grill to whack 'em.

[hallow bolt]

The overhead attack has more range

[uneven herald]

i don't like 2 handers because i spelunk like a spastic

[hallow bolt]

"Bonk"

[uneven herald]

sprinting through a cave at the same speed as the surface

[hallow bolt]

I place my lantern and use it as my "you walk here, you die" field

[prisma basin]

I'm intimately familiar with the X and Q keys.

[uneven herald]

yeah i don't like juggling the lantern

[hallow bolt]

Clearly you need 64 lanterns so you can be wasteful with them c:

[uneven herald]

i esp considering there's some awful cave geometry and spawning positions where if i stand my ground i get pelted by bowtorns rent free

and furthermore they run from me so i gotta pursue and flog

there's like way too many spawns for me to warrant standing still every encounter

gotta steal yo paintings and fancy vases and shit

[velvet horizon]

is there a tutorial on the new systems? i find myself kinda lost sometimes

[prisma basin]

The mod page explains more or less everything.

[velvet horizon]

not really

like how does parrying work? and whats the benefit

or for example on some shields it says i can block AND parry but i cant seem to make it parry

stuff like that

[prisma basin]

Parrying is blocking within a brief window of the attack connecting.

The benefit is outlined on the item itself. Typically,full body protection,rather than partial,and at a much higher protection tier.

For example,longswords can parry while wielded in a two-handed manner. As in,nothing in the left hand. It'll animate a parry. If an attack is blocked during that animation,you enjoy full body T9 protection. Enough to cold-cock basically anything.

Greatswords can block AND parry. When you block,they first animate a parry,then come to a guard stance. If you block the attack during the animated parry,you enjoy full body T9 protection. If it's later,then you get partial body T7 protection.

Making sense?

[velvet horizon]

makes sense thanks

if i may i would like to make a few suggestions

i think for the directional attacks it shouldnt just come out as soon as you press or hold the attack button, i should be able to hold my attack untill i let go of mouse 1 (take mount and blade combat for example)

maybe blocking too could be directional but idk how you would implement that

yea thats all

[green shadow]

Steel swords are tier 6 slashing, highest enemy slashing resist is tier 6. Meaning you are doing 25% less damage to tier 4 drifters, sawblade and bears.

[prisma basin]

And falxes outperform that.

Falxes hit a tier higher than any other sword made of the same material,ensuring damage against all comers. In exchange,they cannot block nor parry,despite prominently featuring a knuckle bow,and have merely average reach.

Why? They're purpose built to kill Rust abominations.

If you need maximal damage on the spot,you reach for a falx. If you need a little more flexibility,you reach for something else.

[green shadow]

thats a good little detail

i was sure falx caps at tier 6 as well

[prisma basin]

Any falx is one tier higher than any sword of that material.

Hell,any weapon of that material,by the looks of it.

[green shadow]

i suppose its fine if you also carry a shield with it

bows cap at tier 5 slashing damage :(

[upper ermine]

||Give the poor tailor piercing + blunt||

[uneven trench]

...isnt there a combat overhaul training weapons mod

[green shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzSR4JAigYE
-brigandine, on average is lighter and more comfortable to wear and restricts movement less
-there were lower quality, mass produced cuirasses for foot soldiers and there were high quality brigandines made for aristocracy
-good brigandine can be just as protective as cuirass except against strong blunt force

why do brigandine and plate have identical penalties if former is supposed to be more comfortable and lighter?

[keen veldt]

I thought plate has a bigger movement speed downside right?

or it’s changed ?

[green shadow]

just checked, they are identical

brigandine should have lower penalties

[keen veldt]

Probably a cost balance thing then I guess, movement should probably be slightly less hindered on brigantine compared to plate though

[green shadow]

it restricts arm movement less as well

[keen veldt]

realism sake, albeit upto maltiez balance wise w everything else

[green shadow]

i dont subscribe to the philosophy of having one armor being a downgrade while having a minor of upside of it being cheaper to produce in some cases

protective values on brigandine compared to plate are portrayed very well, but they should not have the same penalties

new leather armor is good, i like it very much and i think i will make use of it on my current playthrough

[graceful bridge]

I'm glad it got changed to Outer only, that's nice.

[nocturne shore]

diffrence between brig and plate is dying to 4 and 20 hits from high tier shivers

Still, every class/weapon style still will want to get hopelorn armor cuz its pentalies are just so low

Im still not really understanding or i cant compehand the reason as to making lighter armor types.

only notable pentalies are mov speed & manipulation speed

I could go with ligher armor like scale for arms to lessen the pentaly while not risking that much cuz arms take 0.5x dmg,
but
i could just unequip my plate arm armor and put it on hotbar for quick access & no pentalies in day to day gameplay

If cost is one of balancing factors, it migth be good to make some light armor have no pentalies to speed/manipulation,

there is a reason why many ppl are drawn to leather armor in vanillia

[mellow light]

@fallow surge I don't have it in front of me, but is it well documented how the armor layer system works in the files?

I'm thinking about making a patch for something and want to integrate it into CO's armor

[wet abyss]

Hey, a slightly related question... does a falx count as a sword, for the Blackguard's one-handed sword proficiency? Or does that proficiency only apply to things explicitly called "sword"?

[prisma basin]

Yes.

A falx is,*by definition,*a sword.

It is a bladed weapon with a tang that is encased in a hilt,with the tang continuing out the bottom of the hilt and covered either by a pommel,some other cover,or turned into a knuckle bow.

That is a sword,and what allows a messer to be called a knife,since its tang is entirely enclosed by the hilt.

[wet abyss]

Well, I'm wary of following logic like that, since there's no guarantee it's implemented that way 🙂 but good to know!

[prisma basin]

If it looks like a sword,and it quacks like a sword,it's a sword.

[wet abyss]

...I haven't seen much of the mod yet, but my favorite thing so far? Unironically the pickaxe animation.

It is so good.

[mellow light]

felt

The Axe and Pickaxe feel like you are actually swinging them

[spring comet]

Heyo @fallow surge, I've re-animated some of the weapons - namely the Greatsword, Falx, Spear (and Pike), Mace, and Light Shield. Would you be interested in including them in your mods? Otherwise I was planning to upload them to the moddb since I've set them up as JSON patches.

[prisma basin]

Those are wild! I'd personally expect more leg and back motion,but I suspect the game won't really permit that,so...
Holy shit. I want.

[hushed scarab]

The zweihander swings are on point

That should be how greatswords are used

[prisma basin]

Agreed!

[spring comet]

thanks a lot!
and tbf maltiez's animation editor does allow for the upper torso, but i think it looks a little strange in the context of weapon swings since the head moves with it

[prisma basin]

Eeeh. It's natural to look at what you're swinging at. Some footwork and spinal flexion would go a very long way to sell some authenticity here. Especially for the greatsword's wide swings.

Still,as-is,this is magnificent.

This is a little taste of the GOOD SHIT!

[spring comet]

yeah that's what i mean, but rotating the upper torso would make it appear as though the head is looking away from the target - i think it's mostly used in CO for reloading the windlass where it's not that big of a deal

[spring comet]

yeah i tried to replicate a couple of Figueiredo's simple rules from youtube videos of people demonstrating them

[prisma basin]

With a weapon that long,your hands that low on the lever,and the whole thing being about five kilograms?
Which is heavy as crap for a sword,but not particularly heavy in the larger scope.
Momentum is your friend.

I'm about to go underground for some more copper. My prospecting hasn't yielded any tin yet,and fighting is common enough for me to want real armour right goddamned now.

Also,my hair's clipping through the helm?

And the mail head armour?

[upper ermine]

Duck sword that quacks when you swing it when?

[uneven trench]

discount Meowmere

the Quackmere

[delicate ocean]

I don't think that definition is right. There are plenty of swords whose tangs are completely covered by the hilt, such as a Katana for example. Plus I never recall ever hearing a definition of sword specifying it as something with that type of tang, exclusively. Also I think the Messer was just called as such to get around laws pertaining to swords in medieval Germany. In german they are known as Bauernwehr (Peasant/Farmer's defense) because of that. Functionally, they were basically single edged swords and later were even adopted by those allowed to carry double edged ones, which is where we get the better known elaborate examples from.

Actually, does armory have any single-edged blades? theyre cool it should have

[green shadow]

interesting if i reach tier 7-8 slashing, which is not super hard to do, polar bear swipe no longer triggers Second Chance on my world settings

[prisma basin]

None come to mind. Just vanilla's falx.

[thin wing]

Some of the longswords (the bronze and iron ones mostly) seem single edged but they don't seem to be historical designs

They mostly just seem like a metal bar sharpened one on end

[prisma basin]

They look double edged to me. They just have very simple hilts.

[thin wing]

I don't think they even have tips

I mean maybe both sides are sharpened, it's hard to tell from the sprite and none of the attacks use the back edge anyway

I do love how simple they look

[prisma basin]

COPPER JUMPSCARE!

[prisma basin]

Huh. I legit didn't notice my nearly two and a half times increased hunger rate.

[nocturne shore]

I cant copperhend the mandess of smithing copper armor

[prisma basin]

I can't find anything I need for bronze,and I've been brought extremely close to death several times,and combat's near-constant. I need the protection,and I can't afford to wait for bronze.

[tulip venture]

bro can't find tin, zinc, or bismuth. that's dire, man

not being able to find any bronze alloy metals but being able to find enough copper for full plate and chain is crazy

[green shadow]

i could not find any zinc for brass (needed for guns) for almost a year, until i finally checked right underneath my base...

being stuck at copper tools is tortorous, id suggest buying tin nuggets from commodities trader

[prisma basin]

I've found exactly one merchant.
An agricultural trader.

[green shadow]

then you dont explore enough

[mellow light]

Go to the merchant, walk directly east or west. Traders spawn in a semi grid with a bit of north-south deviation.

[hollow pasture]

Lots of emphasis on striking with the further end of the weapon rather than just broad swings looks awesome.

[hollow pasture]

5kg sounds like a parade sword. From what I see, most were barely over 2.2kg

[mellow light]

Most swords are not 12ish pounds in weight.

Combat Zweihanders were maybe just over 4 pounds, and even ceremonial ones were only around 8-9 pounds, as an example.

(it was used more like a polearm than a longsword)

[mellow light]

The most extreme example I can find is the Zweihander ascribed to Pier Gerlofs Donia, which is a whopping 14.6ish pounds

[thin wing]

Greatswords were used like greatswords

[mellow light]

lol

which one

/lh

[thin wing]

There's a 32 pound, 377cm odachi called Odachi Norimitsu

It was almost certainly never used ever and was absolutely just a swordsmith flexing

But it is a hilariously massive katana

[mellow light]

I'll do you one better actually

https://visit-kudamatsu.com/recommended/hajya-no-ontachi/

[thin wing]

This monster hunter looking mfer

[mellow light]

With a total length of 465 cm and an overall weight of 75 kg, it is believed to be the largest Japanese sword in Japan.

[thin wing]

75 kilograms of steel lol

Some swordsmith was really bored i guess

[mellow light]

In American: 15ft long, 167ish pounds

[thin wing]

Mfin Sephiroth-ass sword

[mellow light]

Like you said tho, at that point its not actually being used lol

I was mostly searching for extreme examples that coulda been used

The one for Pier Gerlofs Donia is that big, and then you consider he was 1. a French Farmer who probably pulled his own plow when he had to, and 2. spent 4 years leading a french rebellion

Guy was apparently freaking huge

Did I say french?

Guy was West Frisian, aka a type of Dutch (in simple terms)

[shut bay]

havent played in a while, anyone knows what happened to the crossbows mod? is it now included in combat overhaul?

nevermind, found it, for some reason it wasnt showing up on the moddb, but after a refresh it does now

[zenith mesa]

Incredible work, my friend.

[forest lagoon]

What's this?

[river glacier]

the Tailored Brigadine mod lets you get this somewhat, it's compatibile with CO and the dyed brig has a bit lower penalties

• it makes you look fancy

[green shadow]

oh, thank you for bringing this up to my attention

i was eying up this mod the other day, but i thought it was non compatible

im not a tailor though, but maybe i get lucky and find a tailoring skill book in a ruin or for sale (from another mod)

[green shadow]

broken blackguard armor is goated for early game?

stole it from the gigantic castle

same stats as copper plate, but a bit more durable

[umbral chasm]

Repair it first

[green shadow]

sure, just gonna craft a stone pickaxe so i can mine some iron with it /j

[river glacier]

it doesen't need the trait

[graceful bridge]

Isn't that copper armor stats?

[wet abyss]

Yeah, it's pretty good for earlygame, because it's not an earlygame piece of equipment. Better Ruins gives you endgame loot right from the start of the game, which is my biggest reason for not using the mod.

[uneven trench]

I wonder if it's better to make tailored gambeson than normal gambeson

[river glacier]

ofc it is

it's the best skin layer armor in the mod

[hallow bolt]

there's no reason to not use tailored gambeson if you can

[nocturne shore]

only problem is that it requires tailor

which is the weakest gameplay-wise class

[next saffron]

I feel like CO is trying to get me to not constantly have an offhand light. which to me is absolutely not going to happen so i guess I'm the 1 handed gamer

[prisma basin]

Yeet your light source when a fight breaks out,then draw steel.

[next saffron]

a lantern does not cast enough light for me to see more than like 5 blocks

and heavens forbid I try archery

maybe immediately around my base but

[mellow light]

The Archive is particularly bad imo

[prisma basin]

I'm getting the distinct impression y'all're under the impression you need to see to the horizon to be able to fight in melee.

Throw down the torch or lantern. Bust out your weapon. Blender time.

I rucked through the Archives with a baldrick of pistols under this doctrine,and it was successful.

[mellow light]

Tbf, I like being able to see what's coming for my face

[next saffron]

situational awareness is a must for me

[prisma basin]

Same here. I play the game like a veteran sonar operator,relying heavily on my ears to locate threats and for general awareness.

And simply Q-ing a light source onto the ground is sufficient for a quick engagement.

Especially if you slipped a plate into your lantern.

So,I reiterate.
I personally think that you think you're blind unless you can see to the horizon.

Which is,quite frankly,an absurd luxury.

[thin wing]

i just carry two melee weapon, a one-hander and two-hander

one-hander gets used when i need the lantern

[prisma basin]

I did the Archives with a staff,which was my Eidolon buster and emergency sidearm,and seven pistols.
I was never at risk of death at any point. I was always able to see a threat.

Whenever I got bushwhacked (Which was semi-frequent) or I saw a threat,I Q'd my lantern onto the ground,and took my shot(s).

Locust nests are annoying.

[next saffron]

also I don't have a lining for my lantern yet so

[thin wing]

the RA isn't so bad since you can turn on the lights

it's a bit dim in most places but I was able to comfortably use a two-hander for most combat

[prisma basin]

Even in the dark,I had no issues.

In caves,I had no issues.

[thin wing]

well you can be the blind swordsman if you want, i prefer to not fight with my screen turned off

[prisma basin]

The Q key exists,and is an amazing feature to have in CO.

[thin wing]

i refuse to place or throw my lantern for cave fighting for moral reasons

[next saffron]

playing with drop item on q is like having a pitfall trap immediately behind your desk

[thin wing]

mostly it's just a pain in the ass and a blackguard shortsword kills basically everything just fine anyway

placing torches constantly is also a pain in the ass

[next saffron]

if I coul place/drop from offhand Id probably bother with it

[thin wing]

for most enemies it takes longer to place and pick back up my lantern, including time for fiddling with the hotbar (especially since there's no way to keep one slot empty) than it does to just kill the thing with a shortsword or falx and move on

the only time i consider it is if it's something like a sawblade locust

I'd be more amenable to it even if stuff just defaulted to going into my inventory instead of my hotbar when picked up honestly

TBH one thing I find VERY annoying is when games auto-populate the hotbar or shortcut slots or w/e. It's bad enough when games do it with new consumables but VS does it with everything unless you actively have your inventory open and I really don't need flax fibers to go into my hotbar thanks, just go into my backpack please

leave my hotbar alone unless my inventory is actually full

but this is a vanilla UI issue, not a CO thing

[prisma basin]

"Impossible to have open slots in the hotbar,"they say.
Pictured: Shortsword,slot earmarked for a longsword/greatsword,javelins,knife,slot for tools,four empty slots,food bowl.

[thin wing]

i don't know what your point is

like

yeah you can empty your hotbar

i'm saying if you pick stuff up while cave diving (presumably you're actually getting stuff) it puts new stuff into your hotbar

unless you have the inventory screen actively open

[prisma basin]

Shift to pick up items mode.
Click to Pick is a QoL mod in disguise.

If I pick something up I don't want in my hotbar,I immediately move it to my bag,or ditch it.

[thin wing]

yeah my problem is it shouldn't go into the hotbar in the first place at all

[prisma basin]

And,if the inventory is open during looting,items default to going there,not the bar.

[thin wing]

i don't want shift-to-pick-up i want to hoover up the items, i just want them to go straight to the inventory

I don't want a "workaround" that just adds more work, replacing shift-clicking items from my hotbar to the bags with holding shift to pick stuff up isn't fixing my UI grumble, just replacing it for a different one

[prisma basin]

So... you demand game designers to design around edge cases,not the most likely scenario.

Because the most likely scenario is,in fact,someone shift+clicking will want it on hand immediately.

[thin wing]

I don't think it's an "edge case" to ask for stuff to default to the bag???

[thin wing]

i highly disagree

when doing a lot of ruin diving like 98% of the stuff you pick up, if not more than that isn't immediately usable, why on earth would i want that in my hotbar

how on earth does anyone benefit from copper ore when mining going into the hotbar instead of just into my bag

the most likely scenario i think is that someone wants to use their hotbar only for stuff they're actually using and if they left a slot open they did so on purpose so they can take their lantern out of their offhand easier

that sounds like a much more common and reasonable thing to want than wanting the random galena ore I looted from a collapsed chest on-hand so I can stare at it

[keen veldt]

Q solves all

[thin wing]

I can't Q my lantern from my offhand anyway and that still doesn't solve a single thing I said

[keen veldt]

if it’s in your offhand

go to empty slot

X then Q is what I do

or I fight in the day

ik there is like lantern mods that go on clothes

might be good for you

[mellow light]

Honestly Im with Aerin, the fact it defaults to the hotbar makes little sense

[green shadow]

Working Classes gives you an option to learn other classes exclusive recipes

i seen skillbooks for clockmaker, blackguard, malefactor and hunter

tailoring book seems to be very rare, which is fair cause tailored gambesson is the only thing tailor got going for them

[hushed scarab]

Honestly just find a good one hand solution then

Me and my mates have been getting good uses out of spears for that reason, even if their not ideal against rust creatures afaik

Keeps them back at least and lets us organise so that one person can light the way while the others bust out their two handers and go to town

Just made a longsword so ive yet to test its effectiveness but it seems to have promise

[next saffron]

apparently crossbows can be operated with a lantern in the offhand

it's bow time.

[prisma basin]

In one hand,a longsword's swing speed basically halves.

Which is honestly better than the expected result: Dislocating every joint in your arm between the collarbone and knuckles.

[hushed scarab]

Ive noticed that
Still testing to see if its my speed

But honestly doesn’t seem that bad of a drawback if i can just backpedal if the hit is risky

[uneven trench]

...how tall is that charcoal pit

[prisma basin]

5x5x5.

I used a rope ladder to get in.

[uneven trench]

huh, I only make a 3x3x2

[prisma basin]

I typically only do 3x3x3. However,I want to stockpile charcoal for bulk processing.

[hallow bolt]

Surprisingly hard to hit bears in the head

I keep getting torso and arm hits

[fallow surge]

Animations are nice, but I would prefer if you make your own mod to add them

[fallow surge]

I can write you class for more complicated stances and combos system, if you want. Or can help you do it, if you can code yourself.

[fallow surge]

CO animations meant for fp first, so attacks animations only use hands.

[zenith mesa]

With how short the longsword is generally, the speed penalty feels a bit harsh.

[upper ermine]

What about maces and whatever the two-handed blunt weapon that isn’t the staff is called? How do they compare?

[green shadow]

they are better for a non-blackguard

[graceful bridge]

I made a club, and it works well enough.

[uneven trench]

what's a good secondary weapon to have besides a falx

i have leather armor, tin bronze chains, and plain gambeson rn

[graceful bridge]

I think a ranged option. Craft a belt bag of some type and fill it with your preferred. As a Blackguard, Obsidian Javelins are great for me.

The Javelins are for animals, mostly.

Plus they're cheap enough that I won't worry if I lose one.

[uneven trench]

running a bow side weapon and quiver

it gets wavy

[graceful bridge]

Yeah, Leather plate isn't amazing for the ranged penalties.

[uneven trench]

i do have iron

ingots

[graceful bridge]

I definitely recommend going for an open helmet if you're wanting range.

And I think its a coif that'll keep your face open in chain.

[uneven trench]

hmm

[graceful bridge]

Keep your face and arms clear. If you can, a torso only cuirass will give you a lot of protection for minimal ranged penalties.

riveted helmet, chain coif, gambesson helmet, cuirass, chain shirt, gambesson body armor, scale sleeves, scale leg armor, gambesson leg armor - this armor is very light on ranged penalties

This was a recommendation I saw, and I agree.

Riveted vs open helmet is your preference.

[noble drum]

I have a question regarding "block/parry" mechanics, how do they work exactly?
I feel like hits punch through blocking all the time (using the tower shield from cattail and the basic leather one)

Me and my friend also tried "parrying" each other to get the feel for how it works, but we never got any interaction other than blocking or hitting the other person

[graceful bridge]

When you use the parry, the animation shows you the window where the parry rating is added as a armor boost to the locations listed. Blocks are like parries, but are held indefinitely, and are usually less effective.

The greatsword is a great example. It has a clear parry and block animation. If the attack hits you while the sword is moving to parry, you get a big armor boost, and if you get hit while the sword is held still in the defensive stance, the armor boost is less effective.

Keep in mind that, unlike many games you're likely familar with, parrying isn't the "take no damage" button. Its an armor boost. Now, a 9 point armor boost on its own is enough to give you >90% damage reduction against some things even while unarmored, but you'll still need armor if you want to tank a significant amount of damage.

[noble drum]

Ahhh, now i see it. Trying out a few weapons in creative. It's definietly more difficult to parry in game vs multiple foes, but now i have a better idea. Thank you for the clear explanation

[graceful bridge]

You're very welcome. Thank you for coming by to learn. I'm happy to help.

[uneven trench]

hmm

what's a good replacement to my leather set

coif are middlewear

[lime jolt]

updated CO and armory and firearms to latest versions, now weapons are black squares, what do?...

CO 0.2.1
armory 0.2.0
firearms 0.10.9

17.3.2025 17:05:34 [Debug] Added unknown Item for 396 Items
17.3.2025 17:05:34 [Debug] arrow, bow, spearhead-iron, spearhead-meteoriciron, spearhead-steel, 

whole bunch of these in server-debug.log

for blockids and itemids

[fallow surge]

Just installation problem not related to CO specifically

[lime jolt]

okay... :o

any ideas on how do I fix it? all mods are enabled

cache wipe maybe?

could it be that firearms and armory are listed as for 1.20.5-rc3?

while im on stable 1.20.4

[fallow surge]

better to ask in https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/454909656230526976

[turbid sand]

Or silver+gold. That's rough buddy

[prisma basin]

It's not size. It's how the mass is balanced in the weapon.

[boreal shoal]

First of all great job. I loved vintage story ever since I played it the first time and the only thing I didn't really like was the combat. Now that we have this wonderful mod I throughly love every thing that is in VS.

What are your plans for the future of this mod?

[spring comet]

That sounds interesting - I can code, though I don't have experience with C# - but I'm not totally sure what such a system would look like
the only thing I thought of while animating was making variations of directional attacks that depended on what the previous attack was, if only to make the transition/interpolation between them a bit smoother

[nocturne shore]

Javelins are quite good vs anything

Low cost & rather fast to throw, while their dmg is really high, so even after halving vs pierce resistant targets, they still outperform crossbows/bows dps wise [maybe not goat foot crossbow for weaker ones & reload bonnus]

[prisma basin]

Javelins have a range problem,compared to bows and crossbows. I personally think they're the ranged weapon option of classes that either lack specific ranged weapon bonuses,or are actively penalized in their handling of ranged weapons.

[nocturne shore]

That would be a true if you needed range for anything else than rabbits

Storms are spawning enemeis way too close for range to matter

[prisma basin]

Mod: "This class is ass with melee,but enjoys bonuses with two different kinds of ranged weapons."
Me: "This looks like a ranged hyperspecialist class!" <Sees absolute and immediate success with exclusive use of ranged weapons>

The square block goes in the square hole.

[nocturne shore]

Clockmaker is only useful long ranged class

Malefactor is great for spamming with javelins & access to sling which is suprisngly good since it doesnt use CO system
[ i wonder if sling deals full dmg in pvp]

[final latch]

Thats why i have 30 torches and my lantern on me, if there are many enemys or strong ones i just place them everywhere and switch to shield

[prisma basin]

I just X+Q the light source and go to town on the spot.

[final latch]

yeah but i would never throw my lantern :D

[zenith mesa]

Well unless we are the worst blacksmiths ever, it should be balanced pretty well.

[upper ermine]

cries in hunter

How should a hunter approach the ||Eidolon||?

[prisma basin]

Don't expect to reload a pistol during the fight. A crossbow probably wouldn't be reloadable,either.

So,bow and/or a polearm.

Aim for the optic.

[austere phoenix]

is there a way to nerf the spears knockback? it makes combat rather trivial

[next saffron]

belt bag?

[prisma basin]

Quivers are worn on the belt,and provides some storage that stores the advertised stuff.

[hallow bolt]

Eidolon has blunt damage so jerkin + heavy armor or gambe + something like scale will do

Iirc tier 7 blunt

Of course you can brute force with like 3 stacks of poultices and poking it with a stick

[prisma basin]

Or you can hop the slam and parry the claps.

Weapon parries have T9 protection.

[hallow bolt]

Indeed

I plan to use a quarterstaff vs it

[prisma basin]

That's what I did in my Clockmaker run,since you literally cannot reload a gun fast enough.

[hallow bolt]

Yeah even a pistol is too slow :c

Iirc the big man has relatively low defenses

You can get away with bronze weapons

Though he's a Machine so 0 blunt protection

Quarterstaff supremacy shines once more

[prisma basin]

Bronze is plenty enough for the Archives.

[hallow bolt]

Indeed, only like 1 enemy there is spooky

That ONE locust...

[prisma basin]

Bzzt!

[hallow bolt]

"Oh nice I found a prince coa- AAAAAAAA"

Fun times c:

[prisma basin]

I found that bugger in the Workshop.

So,a literal tank had competent escort.

[hallow bolt]

Lol thank god CO's Armory weapons can have AOE

Quarterstaff left sweeps my beloved

[prisma basin]

I'm exploiting that by poking Drifter heads through my doors.

[hallow bolt]

Oh I didn't even consider that

Thanks for the idea c:

[upper ermine]

Halberd? Bow?

[hallow bolt]

honestly, get a quarterstaff. It does blunt damage (machines have NO blunt resistance) + it can parry (eidolon attacks are easy to parry) + long-ish reach for a melee weapon

I used a gun + crossbow to weaken the boss but not to kill it

[prisma basin]

Lessee here... Cuirass is seven ingots. Pauldrons and vambraces are four each. As are cuisses and greaves. The helm is... four,as well? Six?

Mail is... thirty two ingots total.

[ionic finch]

yeah we just found it after someone on here pointed me in that direction

[prisma basin]

Riddle78's Armour Materials Tally
Maximal coverage variants only.
Plate Armour
-Pauldrons) Five ingots.
-Vambraces) Five ingots.
-Cuirass) Six ingots.
--All in one plate body armour) Sixteen ingots total.
-Greaves) Four ingots.
-Cuisses) Four ingots.
--All in one plate leg armour) Eight ingots total.
-Plate helm) Four ingots.
---Complete plate layer) Twenty eight ingots.
Mail Armour
-Mail head armour) Three chain,six ingots.
-Mail body armour) Eight chain,sixteen ingots.
-Mail leg armour) Five chain,ten ingots.
--Complete mail layer) Thirty two ingots.

[hushed scarab]

Jesus

Is it worth it?

[prisma basin]

It's protection.
Yes.

[uneven trench]

considering I just learned that making a plate is faster when making chains first...

...are you using iron for those

[prisma basin]

Tin bronze.

[prisma basin]

Is it just me,or is the ready stance on shortsowrds and longswords strangely outwardly postured?

Real weird.

[hushed scarab]

You mean the other way around?

[uneven trench]

plate then chain

[graceful bridge]

Maltiez made the animation with FPV in mind, so they can look a bit off in 3rd person.

[prisma basin]

I see the shadow in first person,and I immediately go, "That seems fucky..."

[graceful bridge]

Lol yeah. But at least the sword isn't taking up abunch of view space

[hushed scarab]

Yeah exactly

[green shadow]

for those desperate for tailored gambesson - get Trait Acquirer mod

this offer is NOT common

in my previous world i played for more then a year and did not seen it for sale

[hollow pasture]

I'd love to see this become a base game feature in some way to reward endgame play

Same for xskills

[final latch]

good call

[woven harness]

does this mod make it so drifter can open doors?

[prisma basin]

No,that's Dana's Tweaks.

[woven harness]

Okay thank trying to convince out server owner to add this so we can have crossbows and he said it was the mod that made drifter open doors I thought they did that vanilla cause I keep getting jumped in my cellar

[prisma basin]

Is your cellar well lit? And don't say with oil lamps,they only spawnproof a 3x3x3 cube around them.

[woven harness]

I had 5 oil lamps

[prisma basin]

Unless your cellar is basically a shoebox...

[woven harness]

it was compresed and not enough

they proably came from the butchering/kitchen that was next to it

[prisma basin]

I suggest getting some brass made and replace basically all oil lamps with torch holders.

[prisma basin]

Just clowned on the Eidolon with a longsword.

Parries rock.

[nocturne shore]

there are also mods to edit spawning light lvl to make it a bit more reasonable, sometimes you want nice, uneven lighting instead making every room basically fullbright

[upper ermine]

How does the Falx compare to the blunt weapons added to the game, for fighting rust monsters>?

[prisma basin]

Falxes hit for one damage tier above all other weapons of the same material.

They basically brute force most thing's slashing defense.

And slashing is typically the "neutral" damage type in CO.

[hallow bolt]

I find falx's attack animations to be better than most other blunt options

Quarterstaff is UWOH though

[uneven trench]

should I make a quarterstaff alongside my falx and bows

[green shadow]

falx is good on a blackguard, other classes are better of using blunt weapons imo

[green shadow]

quarterstaff rocks

[thin wing]

As a blackguard I'm a fan of carrying a falx and a greatsword

[upper ermine]

Better than the blackguard sword?

[green shadow]

i'd say yes

[prisma basin]

I was pretty unambiguous when I said that the falx outperforms ALL weapons made of the same material.
The Blackguard's Shortsword is an iron shortsword.
The iron falx outperforms it.

[upper ermine]

The poor blackguard

[green shadow]

blackguard is the strongest class in the game, vanilla or co

[thin wing]

Blackguard sword vs falx depends

[green shadow]

isnt blackguard shortsword a tier 4? Thats bronze tier

[thin wing]

Against the iron falx I'd say the blackguard sword wins cuz it has higher base damage and the tier difference only matters against a couple enemies

It's tier 4 but isn't that the same as other iron weapons?
Either way it has higher base damage which is it's main draw

[green shadow]

iron is tier 5 and steel is tier 6, i think

falx is +1 tier to material

[thin wing]

I thought meteoric iron was tier 5 and steel was 6

Stone/wood is tier 1, copper is 2, bronze is 3, iron is 4, meteoric is 5 and steel is 6

Blackguard shortsword i think beats out the iron falx in most situations (tier 4 slash and lower and tier 7 slash defense due to how it works) since it does like an entire extra damage, against meteoric iron it's a bit if a tossup (still better against tier 4 and below but worse against tier 5 and up)

[green shadow]

perhaps, i just use quarterstaff and it does not care about tiers

[thin wing]

The blackguard shortsword totally blows the iron shortsword out of the water though lol

[green shadow]

fair

[thin wing]

This is also only looking at damage and ignoring that the blackguard shortsword can also parry like shortswords so it's very versatile

It holds its own even against meteoric iron, but it's beaten by steel

[austere phoenix]

is there a way to make spears have less knockback? I cant find a reason to use any other weapon rn except spears, i just want to reduce by like 30%.

i was looking in the json files but could not find anything

[austere phoenix]

thanks

[green shadow]

im curious, why would you ever use spears?

[austere phoenix]

they have the longest range and knockback, they make you untouchable

[green shadow]

its a hunting weapon, and for hunting you are better off using ranged weapon imo

drifters are resistant to piercing damage, very much so

[austere phoenix]

they dont do a lot of damage but spears can keep almost every enemy away, except for brown bears. its a bit cheesy for my playthrough

brown bears are too fast for the knockback

ive set every enemy to have faster movement speed and made myself have lower movement speed and still, spears have been making combat rather simple, but i just nerfed the knockback so i shouldnt have the issue

[thin wing]

Pikes are longer by the by

[green shadow]

Pike seems to be too unwieldy to use, i used them to poke holes in bears that have been trapped in a pit and nothing else

[thin wing]

Realistic honestly, pikes would suck if you're just One Person lol

[graceful bridge]

Spears being the easiest to use weapon makes a lot of sense.

[upper ermine]

There’s a reason why spears and similar weapons were so common throughout history though 😉

[thin wing]

In the stone age cuz they're easy to make and in wars cuz they're easy to make in bulk and work great in formation
They're not necessarily the best if you're just Some Guy but the best weapon always depends on context anyway

Though VS naturally glosses over one of the largest factors behind a weapon choice; how annoying it would be to carry lol

Ain't no world I'd want to carry a spear at all times while also carrying mining equipment into a cave, but if it just fits into my magic pocket then w/e

[halcyon palm]

can I post crash logs here related to musket crashing my game in wield?

[hushed scarab]

Huh? Really? Considering you can use spears one handed, and ive found with relative success, i actually prefer using them in caves even though the weapon does less damage against rust enemies

[hushed scarab]

I concur with this. You spears are great

You just bounce back whatever is trying to get to you and it works out really well

[thin wing]

I meant realistically lol

In-game i still wouldn't use spears but mostly cuz every monster is very resistant to pierce so you're almost always doing half damage

Also blackguard so, sword lol

A lot of video games gloss over that spears are big and super annoying to carry everywhere lol

[hushed scarab]

Ah, fair

[graceful bridge]

A short spear, less than your height, would be excellent in a tighter space where swinging swords may be restricted. It helps you can't be flanked or outmanuvered in a tunnel.
As long as the weapon is shorter than you, carrying it in tight spaces isn't unreasonable.

[thin wing]

Swords can stab too

The hard part is bringing the spear to bear in those situations

[graceful bridge]

The can, but spears stab at longer distance.

[thin wing]

And it not getting lodged in some angle in the cave like trying to drag a couch through a hallway

[graceful bridge]

If your spear is that long, yeah, it's gonna be a pain.

[thin wing]

If the entire cave is large enough for you to walk in a spear is mostly fine, the hard part is ones where you might have to crawl through smaller gaps or whatever

[graceful bridge]

If you have to bend your body through a gap, your sword isn't fairing much better.

[thin wing]

Swords are a lot shorter than spears lol

Unless you're trying to drag a zweihänder with you lol

[graceful bridge]

But think about the relative difference in difficulty

[thin wing]

[graceful bridge]

In both cases, you have to mind your weapon, and remove it from your body.

[thin wing]

Idk like 5

I would've thought "a shorter sword would be a lot easier to carry around in a cave than a spear" was an uncontroversial statement

[graceful bridge]

In that case, the difference between 1 and 2 meters aint much.

[thin wing]

That's a big difference o_o

My "idk like 5" remark was just being silly

[green shadow]

i like javelins the most out of all the spears

shame you cant throw it with a shield

[graceful bridge]

Javelins are nice. I like the Javelin belt bag.

[green shadow]

definatly

[graceful bridge]

Its nice to have dedicated weapon slots.

[green shadow]

steel tier javelins are okay against most drifters

kinda short range though

[graceful bridge]

steel tier Javelins is a funny idea, since I lose them and just spam obsidian ones.

@thin wing I think I mean Javelins. Short enough to keep on your person.

[green shadow]

i mean, you cant get lower then 50% penalty due to enemy protection

stone javelins would do amazing 3.5 damage per throw to a drifter

[graceful bridge]

Javelins also feel like vanilla spears to me.

They don't have a lot of deadzone in close, and hit out to about what range I'm used to fighting with.

[green shadow]

dead zone is hard to get used to

[graceful bridge]

Yeah. It really is learning a whole new fighting skill.
I wonder if it'd be feasible or good to have a bit of knockback and minimal damage given to deadzones.

[uneven trench]

weren't Javelins initially what replaced spears until backlash made spears makeable

[wet abyss]

Currently trying to decide what weapon to upgrade to next. In practical gameplay, do longswords have problems being unable to swing in tight quarters, like 1-wide tunnels? Or is that not modeled?

And would I need one or two ingots to smith one?

[thin wing]

Two ingots

Also nah you can swing greatswords in caves

Polearms are awkward in tight spaces but only because they have a minimum range

[wet abyss]

I noticed, hence not going for a spear this time 😄

longsword it is, then

And then I'll have to practice parrying at some point...

[thin wing]

The greatsword can block at least

[wet abyss]

Not yet at iron tier, only bronze.

[thin wing]

RIP

[uneven trench]

I wonder if I should get a broadsword instead of a quarterstaff

[thin wing]

They're entirely different niches so hard to compare

[wispy pumice]

I was on the fence about downloading this, eventually just said screw it and got it.
It turns the club into a baseball bat 10/10 mod why didn't i get it sooner.

[uneven trench]

fair enough

commoner wanting to get a falx melee alternative

[green shadow]

quarterstaff is always a better choice then swords for non blackguard

but you can go with something other then quarterstaff for the vibes

[thin wing]

i mostly mean one is two-handed and the other is one-handed lel

overall i'd say the priority is using a weapon you have proficiency with first, but other than that, blunt weapons are generally better

if i was playing commoner i'd probably carry a mace and quarterstaff, maybe with a spear in case of Sudden Wolf

though if you want to keep your weapon count lower you could just use a sword instead since slashing damage is middle-of-the-road for defense so it's ok against monsters and wildlife

and once you get to meteoric iron or steel the damage type matters a lot less

[green shadow]

im thinking of trying mace + shields on my clockmaker

because i can also block when using pistols

[thin wing]

I personally find shields worse than 2-handed weapons especially since a lot of 2-handers can block anyways

I don't think I ever have a pistol in-hand long enough that blocking while holding the pistol is an issue that comes up lol

I'll swap to the pistol to shoot then back to melee weapon

how does pistol + shield work anyway? does right click aim or block or both?

[green shadow]

you aim and block at the same time, i think

i was testing it in creative some time ago

[thin wing]

ah interesting

[green shadow]

gives me grim dawn flashbacks

shield and pistol character

[thin wing]

while it is a vibe i'm not sure how practical it is since you only aim and shoot for about 2-3 seconds before needing to empty your offhand for like 15 seconds to reload anyway

unless you got a brace of pistols

[hallow bolt]

As a hunter, I carry a spear + quarterstaff

Fuck bears + fuck shivers all in one 💪

[hallow bolt]

Funny meme but some areas swarm you like locusts nests

[green shadow]

why not halberd?

you can do pokes and and you can do slashes

[hallow bolt]

2-handed

[green shadow]

quarterstaff is also 2 handed

[hallow bolt]

Yeah

Not going to double-down on weaknesses lol

[uneven trench]

what does the windlass do for crossbows?

...wait, is the windlass a way to speed up reloads of stirrup crossbows?

[green shadow]

its a reload tool for windlass crossbow

specifically

[hallow bolt]

You need it for Windlass crossbow

38 damage 😩

[graceful bridge]

I'm surprised no one talks about the humble club

I love my club.

Blunt 1/2h. Love it. Shield if needed, extra damage if not.

[hallow bolt]

Low range imo

I did make an iron club

Then near immediately swapped to quarterstaff

The 2handed aspect is quarterstaff's only weakness

[graceful bridge]

True, enough. Better than a mace, and imo easier to handle.

[hallow bolt]

Agreed

Easier to craft too

Just needs nails

Leftovers makes chests c:

[graceful bridge]

That said, I don't play clockmaker. I recommended my team clockmaker use a quarterstaff.

[hallow bolt]

I play hunter and still use quarterstaff

I was tempted to use clockmaker but Hunter's -50% sway 😩

I'm the cook sadly :c

also the Miner

[restive cove]

So uh. @fallow surge I don't understand your logic behind the new armor changes.

on every stat forlorn hope has half the downsides of plate

Black guard was nerfed into being normal plate despite it's rareness (same rarity as forlorn hope, and in the lore the two armors clashed in battle)

Kastan curiass' have twice as much defence, even LESS hunger rate and downsides other than range.

The changes make it so there's no point in wearing certain armors over others, which isn't ok from a balancing standpoint. It would make sense if it was bronze armor vs steel, but this is steel armor vs lore armor.

[hallow bolt]

Perhaps Maltiez hates blackguards? I hate my blackguard he stole my bucket

[restive cove]

Yeah but I have several players complaining about it on my server, and rightly so. The changes make zero sense

Maybe I can understand the kastan one, but nerfing blackguard into oblivion while buffing tf out of forlorn hope doesn't make sense

[hallow bolt]

You can revert back in the files section in the modb

I did for my server

[restive cove]

The two armors have the same stats in vanilla for a reason lol

[restive cove]

Yeah ik, I'm about to

I just want him to know that the changes don't make sense

[hallow bolt]

Obligatory make a backup, nothing happened for us but better safe than sorry 💪

[restive cove]

We backup every day and test everything on a test server before doing anything to the main

We'll be fine

It's just some value changes, nothing that would cause issues

[fallow surge]

What is "Kastan"?

[graceful bridge]

Is Kastan Curiass is base CO? I thought it was from Spear Expansion

[restive cove]

The kastan brust armor, might be spear expansion

If so, myb

But the other changes are what I'm more worried about

[hallow bolt]

Ah yeah Kastan isn't in CO (or its branch mods like Armory) I was confused too lol

[restive cove]

Forlorn hope and blackguard have the same stats in vanilla minus the durability, because they're both the same rarity to acquire

So changing one to be better than the other makes zero sense

[hallow bolt]

To be fair, its pretty agreed that Forlorn is better than blackguard even in vanilla

[restive cove]

Yeah but not halving the stats better

[fallow surge]

List here forlorn, blackhuard and iron plate vanilla stats

[restive cove]

Those are the stats from co

Lemme get the others

Also from co

[hallow bolt]

Oh wow that is a big difference

[austere phoenix]

I get it, but the knock back seems like overkill alongside the reach

I changed it to 1.7 and it feels a lot more balanced

[restive cove]

these are the vanilla stats, they're meant to be somewhat ambiguous since both armors are lore armors. Yes forlorn hope is objectively better by 1-4% on some stats, but not a whole 10% like CO did

[fallow surge]

Where is vanilla iron plate stats?

[restive cove]

here

I was getting them

[fallow surge]

So vanilla blackguard is just vanilla iron plate with less debufs

[restive cove]

yea

and forlorn hope is the same with less durability and less debuffs. The debuffs only change by a max of a 4% difference.

[thin wing]

the club is cheap and if you just want something it's an excellent weapon, but if you're willing to expend the extra inventory slot and extra ingot or two, a mace + quarterstaff combo is better

the quarterstaff is a better two-handed weapon (can block, longer) and the mace is a better one-handed weapon (faster attack speed)

[restive cove]

rolling pin supremacy @restive vector

[thin wing]

aye aye, and forlorn hope is also iron plate with even less downsides (almost exactly the same downsides as scale armor actually)

[restive cove]

I said that minus the scale bit lol

[thin wing]

oh i missed that, my apologies

i'm a bit late to the convo

[restive cove]

npnp

[swift locust]

what would the best armor combo be for iron if youre going for protection and still want some modest mobility? i find the new armour system this adds incredibly confusing so please help (i do have armory installed)

[hallow bolt]

I haven't played on the new update in earnest but Jerkin + Scale gives good protection vs most non-Nightmare enemies with minimal debuffs

My hunter has 99% speed with that fit

Use a Riveted helm for minimal steady aim debuffs too

You can take off the jerkin for slightly more speed if you're not afraid of drifters and moose

[swift locust]

well im actually preparing this armor for resonance archives so

ive never been there before so im unsure how much protection id actually need

[wet abyss]

In vanilla I would recommend iron chainmail. Not sure how that translates into CO though.

[swift locust]

well im confused on one thing
CO adds 3 different parts: vambraces, pauldrons, and cuirasses
and if you craft them together youll get plate body armour
where are you supposed to put those? since theres 3 different slots but only 1 piece of armour

and the vanilla slots are disabled

so you cant put them there

same story for chain body armour

[wet abyss]

Armors can occupy multiple slots at once.

If you want to test, try crafting an improvised body armor, that's cheap

[swift locust]

or just go into a creative world

[wet abyss]

Or that, yeah

[hallow bolt]

Oh resonance archives

Get gambe

The new update dumpstered all armor and the google doesn't show Eidolon stats

But its probably high tier blunt damage like it was last update

[prisma basin]

I dunno. In full bronze plate (As in,all three layers),I'm functionally invulnerable.

If the armour stats got dumpstered,then I didn't feel it.
Unless you mean as individual layers worn in isolation,without considering the fact that THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE WORN AS PARTS OF A LARGER SYSTEM.

Gambeson,mail,and plate. Worn together,as they are meant to be,you're basically invulnerable.

Material dependent,of course. I ran into three Sawblade Locusts,and they came close to putting me in the ground.

But that's a simple issue of damage tier vs. defensive tier.

[hallow bolt]

"Plate"

Got to fiddle with files again is all that tells me 😞

[prisma basin]

Or just... wear gambeson,mail,and plate.

You're not slowed down overmuch.

The only real penalty is healing rate,which is easily enough addressed by waiting until combat is over,stripping armour,and then healing. You'll be durable enough to do that.

[hallow bolt]

I'm just going to revert the changes personally

I prefer when armor was stronger

[prisma basin]

It sitll is strong. You just need to use it as it was intended.

[hallow bolt]

I know how the system works lol

[prisma basin]

This is like playing Morrowind,and saying it's bad because it's not Skyrim. You realize this,tight?

[hallow bolt]

???

[prisma basin]

You're not approaching the mod on its terms.

[hallow bolt]

I said I don't like the changes

So I'm reverting them

Its not that complex

[hallow bolt]

Good thing I can change the mod?

[nocturne shore]

manipulation pentaly affects your attack speed & mining

[prisma basin]

I genuinely don't feel that.

[hushed scarab]

It definitely has a tangible effect
But considering you can just move away or into an enemy depending on whether the swing is risky or not its kinda negligible

[prisma basin]

Or just parry.

I have enough time to get two cuts in between parries.

[hushed scarab]

I forget the parry exists most times lol

Im just too used to backpedaling because its just so goddamn easy to do that instead

[prisma basin]

Dark Souls and Elden Ring taught me to never give ground. Combined with my experience with Sekiro,parrying just comes naturally to me.

[hushed scarab]

Its weird to apply dark souls and elden ring logic to vintage story lol

Considering how braindead and non oppressive enemies are

Unless theyre a shiver

But even then the trusty slide to the left technique works against them

And hell

[prisma basin]

It's just how my brain responds to combat.
"Enemy. Engage. Kill. Don't give ground. Guarantee long-term safety."

[hushed scarab]

You usually can gain ground just by hitting the enemies because for some reason knockback can be obscene in this game

Idk why spears are so good at backing mother fuckers against a wall

Why get up close and personal when you can cheese mother fuckers against a wall and stand there holding left click with a spear lmao

Its so silly

[prisma basin]

Because my swords swing faster and use a better damage type than spears.

Thrusting damage is,generally speaking,ten different kinds of bogus against Rust monsters.

Slashing damage,meanwhile,is about neutral.

So,the more advantageous damage type combined with the Blackguard's swing speed bonus with swords of all kinds means...
Why would a Blackguard ever bother with spears the moment they get access to copper?

[hushed scarab]

Oh no obviously spears are low damage

But that doesn’t matter to me if the enemy literally cant hit me and i can stand still and hold left click lol

[prisma basin]

Spears (And crossbows) are absolute death against mundane animals,though.

[hushed scarab]

It takes what, maybe 2 to 3 seconds longer to kill stuff for me?

[prisma basin]

Weapon turnover rate.

[hushed scarab]

Wuzzat?

[hallow bolt]

Spears have low durability :c

[prisma basin]

The rate at which you need to replace your weapons.

[hushed scarab]

Eh, whatever, go my meteoric iron

Lasts me a great deal of days it does

[river glacier]

and it's annoying as hell when you're chasing that one bowthorn or bellhead drifter or whatever and you knock it back 10 yards

[prisma basin]

Lower durability combined with needing more hits to kill means you're replacing those spears far more often than you would be replacing swords,staves,and maces.

[hushed scarab]

Lmfao ok fair enough

[hallow bolt]

I've gotten 10+ temporal gears on quarterstaff for only 1/4th durability

I doubt my spear could get close 😔

[hushed scarab]

Soz they should change the bats and clubs to throw enemies around like its baseball

[hushed scarab]

Honestly ive ran a meteoric iron spear for both hunting and cave diving and it lasted me through autumn till the end of winter

[river glacier]

Ive knocked things over fences with a spear that's not right man

[prisma basin]

What's next? Dragoon jumps?

[hushed scarab]

Please

I want to be a dragoon

[river glacier]

in what world you can punch things to higer elevations than they can jump

[hushed scarab]

That would be so fucking cag

2 things i now want in vs

1. Dragoon lance

[prisma basin]

Funny thing. I somehow punch surface monsters to death.

[hushed scarab]

2. The Dragonslayer from Berserk

[hushed scarab]

Surface enemies are dookie balls anyways

[prisma basin]

Eeeeeeeh.
I want the Dragonslayer Spear,personally.

Maybe with the lighting projectile,powered by Temporal Gears.

[hushed scarab]

Balls

[river glacier]

use a stick when punching for that extendo arm reach

[hushed scarab]

I want a raw heap of iron to cleave Apostles with

And then give myself a cannon arm and a repeating shotgun and the insurmountable strength of the human spirit

[prisma basin]

I refuse to not bloody my knuckles with such craven cowardice.

Ignore the gauntlets on my hands...

[hushed scarab]

Soz we should get proper gauntlets

[prisma basin]

We do.

[hushed scarab]

Also i havent tested this but can you run bucklers with bows?

[river glacier]

no you need a free offhand

[prisma basin]

I imagine not. Bows need both hands to operate,no? A shield occupies the left hand.

[hushed scarab]

I mean moreso fighting gauntlets or knuckle dusters

Well thats a bummer

[prisma basin]

Those are called caesti.

[hushed scarab]

Historically archers could use shields with their bows

Like a kalkan

[prisma basin]

Historically,the had shields *available,*but only had them in hand when the enemy drew into melee.

[hushed scarab]

Or bucklers and pavise

Nah with bucklers and something like a kalkan they could use it with their bows

[prisma basin]

And a pavise is not a shield. It's deployable cover. Attempting to use it as a shield is... Ill advised.

[hushed scarab]

^that is true
Pavise was more back protection than anything lol

Which makes me wonder if its possible to have unequipped equipment become physically holstered on your body somewhwrw

As in, in game

[prisma basin]

There's a mod that renders hotbarred tools and weapons on your person.

Trying to find it now.

[hushed scarab]

Would be funny if your unequipped shield was planted on your back and you become a turtle lol

[prisma basin]

If I recall,that's where the mod renders shields in the hotbar.
No mechanical effect,though.

Aah. Found it. But it's out of date.

Damn.

https://mods.vintagestory.at/immersivetools
The mod in question,just in case you wanna look.

[green shadow]

if forlon gets nerfed because of you - you are dead

[restive cove]

nah dude it needs to get renerfed because he buffed it up the ass and nerfed blackguard down the ass

the original values were fine

[green shadow]

dont call me dude please

[restive cove]

myb, I call everyone that. didn't see your pronouns

[green shadow]

nw!

forlon is worse then steel plate if you want more protection

i agree that blackguard should be buffed

also, forlon is very expensive to fix

[restive cove]

vanilla armor stats don't change more than 2-4% between the two lore armors

keeping that same ratio would be fine

but a 10% difference isn't

[green shadow]

blackguard should have lower manipulation speed/movement speed maybe, forlorn lower ranged penalty

[analog hearth]

Hey I was just curious, do you guys use ranged (hunter) or melee (blackguard) with combat overhaul? I have pretty much always used hunter but ranged weapons seem to be much more situation dependent than melee (and overall maybe less useful?). Like in the major lore place that the treasure trader sends you to, melee is basically the only thing you can do from what I have seen. IDK I am just curious what you guys think.

and also considering you basically can't use armor if you want to be proficient with ranged weapons makes it even more situational

[green shadow]

recurve bow is very fast and you can use it a short ranges

hunter has so much bonus aim that you can get away with heavier armor

also, you get 1.5x multiplies for headshots, which are easier to do at closer range

but personally i always play clockmaker because gun is funny

[analog hearth]

Would you say that is worth losing the blackguard melee/armor buffs? iirc forlorn is pretty good for ranged due to its low penalties and so is leather/tailored gambeson so those could be used without too much detriment

[analog hearth]

gun is alot of fun haha

[green shadow]

probably, but as long as your head and chest are protected you should be fine

those are the most common areas to be hit in, and limbs takes half damage

if your goal is to stay away and shoot at things

gambesson will cover your arms and legs, which by itself is enough protection against blunt damage

only thing you should be afraid of is high tier shiver tearing your arm apart, cause they do absurd damage at low attack tier

sawblade got nerfed, and while it will be very painful to be hit in the arm/leg you will survive

[analog hearth]

ok yeah that makes sense, so something like gambeson should be good enough for most things then

[analog hearth]

also thank god it was nerfed lmao, that thing was a true killing machine

Thanks for the info ❤️

[uneven herald]

you can mix and match your arm and head protection and since you're hunter you have a gigantic ranged bonus that prevents you from exponentially dipping into the hell that is low steadiness and manipulation speed

[prisma basin]

Gambeson head to toe. Mail coif (NOT head armour),mail shirt,mail leg armour. Open helm,cuirass,plate leg armour. Maximised protection without any meaningful ranged penalties.

[green shadow]

i personally would skip leg protection, becuase it slows your down

apart from gambesson pants

with this setup you still get manipulation speed penalty of 11%

meaning slow reload

i hate it

but there is no way not to have penalties unless you are naked

vanilla tailored gambeson, my beloved 😭

[upper ermine]

Is there an apron so I can wear it with the chef hat and rolling pin

[green shadow]

clockmaker starts with what looks like an apron

[restive cove]

Yeah the blacksmith has one but I can make one for the chef class I'm making

[upper ermine]

And I can switch out the rolling pin for a cleaver and say “Ahhh, fresh meat”

[green shadow]

one sec

[green shadow]

Cook is from Working Classes mod

[upper ermine]

Ooh I like the historical touch. Barber surgeon

[green shadow]

barber surgeon is vanilla clothes set

[prisma basin]

With the setup I suggested,only gambeson is on the arms.

As for movement speed,it's honeslty not that big of a deal, Unless RNG throws an attack at your neck or face,you're not taking much damage at all.

I legitimately think a lot of people put far more value than is sane on movement speed,in an environment where armour genuinely does its job.

[green shadow]

armless armor like cuirass or chain shirt still give manipulation speed penatly

[olive abyss]

i just got into caving for the first time since the last update, did it just tank armor stats across the board?

my full gambeson plus full steel scale feels incredibly underwhelming now

[green shadow]

defense tiers got lowered, but also entity damage tiers/damage got readjusted

[olive abyss]

damn, i was enjoying having a modicum of survivability without having to eat a -30% movement speed 😩

[green shadow]

its fine, you still pretty much invunerable

[olive abyss]

lol not even remotely in caves

[prisma basin]

Yes,but it's not felt at all if you use the armour as intended: A full three layered system.

Speed means nothing when you're borderline invulnerable.

[olive abyss]

i mean

ive got my layers full

steel scale is outer and middle and gambeson is skin

[prisma basin]

At that point,you don't NEED to be fast. The enemy can't threaten you.

[olive abyss]

unless you're saying the intended is "only ever wear plate + chain + gambeson"