Combat Overhaul

[lime jolt]

oh, great! thanks

so for now i can just ignore these?

[hallow bolt]

Ah I thought CO overrode those stats

I wonder if buffs that affect those ranged stats buff CO gear 🤔

Oh I think you meant gear outside of CO lol idk how I didn't think of that

[turbid sand]

Wait a second, they're not throwing snowballs!

[gentle bane]

recipies for making scale body armor piece by piece and at once differ by 3 leather and 1 twine

[graceful bridge]

Yeah. However, you get more versatility with separate pieces.

[hallow bolt]

Yeah the most severe debuffs from body are from the hands

So you can slap plate on but like cloth hands

[graceful bridge]

Its a very good idea to get chest armor as soon as possible.

[hallow bolt]

Agreed

I got mauled by a grizzly yesterday and it only did 5 damage instead of 16 ( I died)

[graceful bridge]

Even something like Bronze Brigandine makes you much more survivable at night.

Even just the chestplates.

Oh, and a helmet!

[hallow bolt]

Riveted helmet 😎

[graceful bridge]

Riveted Helmet is super cheap.

[hallow bolt]

Yes there is 6% chance I just get demolished but I'm a gambler

[graceful bridge]

"Whatcha gonna do, stab me in the neck?" ~ Quote from seraph stabbed in neck

[hallow bolt]

I LOVE GAMBLING

[graceful bridge]

Hope they don't roll a Nat 20

[hallow bolt]

Lol yeah there's a Second Wind thing but idk what it does

[graceful bridge]

It keeps you from getting 1 shot.

If you'd take massive damage that'd kill you, it keeps you from dying afaik.
It does have a cooldown.

[hallow bolt]

Indeed but is it like "negate 1 instant kill" or like "reduce hp to 1" kind of thing

Oh got to go work calls :c

[graceful bridge]

👋

[robust pond]

Lol, thats what im sayin!

[prisma basin]

How many ingots do I need for shortsword parts? One?

[prisma basin]

Yup. One. Also,broke in my new shortsword.

Hmm... spatha,or xiphos?

[graceful bridge]

Has anyone got this done yet?

[fallow surge]

nope

[graceful bridge]

I can do this after work today.

[lime jolt]

is that steel plate being nerfed in half? while keeping all enemy damage roughly as it is?

not sure i read this correctly..

[graceful bridge]

While changing the damage steps, yeah.

[charred river]

Plate armour should make you incredibly strong.

[graceful bridge]

Maltiez changed it in response to people saying that being in plate made them feel too strong.

[prisma basin]

I mean... being in full plate should make you borderline invulnerable.

[graceful bridge]

I agree, but Maltiez was hearing the people complaining. I don't blame him for wanting to fix it

[final latch]

I mean Late-Game Full Steel Plate Armor with Gambeson and Chain should be 98% damage blocked IMO

[graceful bridge]

"Against what" is the real question

[prisma basin]

Everything except a ballista,a polehammer,or a lance at full gallop,basically.

[graceful bridge]

You get 99% protection against T3 piercing and blunt, and T5 slashing enemes in that setup.

I know the numbers look weird compared to the old system, and steel got "nerfed", but with the new numbers, you're still very protected.

The highest single point of damage in max armor you'll take is 1.5 from Double Headers.

[graceful bridge]

I'm happy about how chain is better at piercing protection now.

[prisma basin]

Sorta wish we had gorgets and bevors as standalone armour pieces,to protect the throat.
And for style.

[upper ermine]

What are the malefactor weapons

Like how the hunter had the halberd and bows

[prisma basin]

Maces,axes,the sling.

Oh,and javelins.

[lime jolt]

if you equip also alot of chainmail and inflict whole another set of penalties on yourself, right?

[prisma basin]

In exchange for being borderline invulnerable.

The hunger rate penalty's easily managed with meals.
The movement speed penalty hurts if you're trying to dive on Bowtorn. For them,shields are much more valuable.
The manipulation penalty means you'll be hopeless with ranged weapons.

[graceful bridge]

Yeah, those numbers are for steel plate, chain, and tailor gamb

[prisma basin]

Armour yourself up,and you can fistfight an Eidolon and win.

[graceful bridge]

That's true. A metal shield is really all you need for bowtorn.

[lime jolt]

eh, very unfortunate, hate the penalties and hate being killed by bear in few hits if im not wearing armor

i used to carry 3 pieces of plate armor on me so i can put it on if im in danger

[prisma basin]

Wanna know the best way to not get killed by a bear?

Wear headphones.

[graceful bridge]

Gun.

And if that don't work

[lime jolt]

and what that achieves? you imply you can hear it before it lunges at you?

[graceful bridge]

Use more gun

[prisma basin]

Not really. Guns do blunt damage,which animals resist big time.

[lime jolt]

you must be not playing the game if you think thats the case

[prisma basin]

Crossbows,meanwhile,do piercing damage,which delete animals.

[graceful bridge]

Crossbow fuck up animals yeah

[prisma basin]

I am,and I am.

Headphones tell you exactly which direction something's in.

Combined with constantly scanning the middle distance,you will detect predators long before they detect you.

[graceful bridge]

What class do you usually play?

[lime jolt]

bears literally dont make sounds except angry growls when it already spotted you

[prisma basin]

None,actually. I have three playthroughs to my name. Hunter,Clockmaker,and currently,Blackguard.

[prisma basin]

Incorrect.

They regularly groan and chuff while idle.

[lime jolt]

im not assuming here, that is my experience, theres not a single bear encounter which is initiated by me and not bear lol

it mostly happens in forests and i notice bear only when i literally bump into it, and no other way around

[graceful bridge]

Also, luckily Musket does full damage against bears.

[prisma basin]

Which is profound overkill for bear hunting.

And a massive powder waste.

[graceful bridge]

I think it sends a message.

The message being "die"

[prisma basin]

If I'm using a musket for hunting,then I'm hunting rhinos,elephants,and sea cows.

[lime jolt]

yea okay, you can circlejerk each other if you wish

my point is - dislike the nerf to armor, think having fullplate armor should definetely not allow to be killed by bear in few hits

thats it

[graceful bridge]

Dude, I'm just having fun. You can be upset about guns and armor penalties, or just play with a different mod

[prisma basin]

Or,follow my advice. Throw on headphones,and pay attention.

[graceful bridge]

Like, you don't have to use the mod.

Play how you wanna

[prisma basin]

Legit,trying to do Invictus runs in STALKER Anomaly GAMMA basically trained me for not getting bushwhacked by predators in Vintage Story.

[graceful bridge]

Or tweak the mod to your liking

[lime jolt]

i have that already, if you didnt get it yet, i do NOT hear bears until they are extremely close

[prisma basin]

Trust your ears. Trust your eyes.

[lime jolt]

in fact i dont even have ingame music

and theres no eyes to be trusted if your visibility is 4 blocks because of trees everywhere

[prisma basin]

That is just a bad habit,then.

[lime jolt]

bad habit of... what exactly? walking in forest?

[prisma basin]

Forests mean predators. So why are you bumbling through the dense woods with your face in the leaves?

Thereby blinding yourself?

[lime jolt]

because i want wood/prospecting/etc?

lmao

[mellow light]

Wolves get one shot by the weakest of guns lol

[prisma basin]

Assuming you nail them in the face.

If you want wood,then harvest the edge of the woods,instead of going into the dense heart of them.
If you're prospecting,simply go around.

Forests are dangerous.

[graceful bridge]

Man, I don't get it. You're in the Combat Overhaul mod channel, complaining about combat when you can't think that visibility is an important factor to combating the high tier enemies.

[lime jolt]

yea it is dangerous and id imagine having a most debilitating debuff armor out of BEST metal in the game would allow me to NOT die any encounter with a bear in forest

[prisma basin]

waits for batch number 23 of 50 lime to get ground up in his quern...

[graceful bridge]

Homeslice, I already said it did

[lime jolt]

but i guess if you wanna be epic tryhard and miss on half of entire playable surface because MUH DANGER then im not stopping you

[graceful bridge]

You have your wish

Steel armor stops bears my dude

Like, its right there in the notes.

[prisma basin]

Two-Headed Drifters hit harder than bears.
Wearing full plate means you're taking 1.5 damage from Two-Headed Drifters.
You'll be taking less from bears.

[lime jolt]

steel plate alone OR with also fullchain beneath it?

[prisma basin]

If you're wearing steel full plate,you can probably wrestle a polar bear to death like your name's General Armstrong.

[lime jolt]

because thats 3 more pieces of armor to micromanage and/or suffer debuffs from

[mellow light]

Wolves get one shot by pistols even if it's a body shot.

Additionally, Muskets will kill most animals in a single shot, as the mod page itself states

[prisma basin]

As Smorez noted,with mail and gambeson.

FULL plate.

[graceful bridge]

Dude, I can see why Maltiez loses his mind. I'm done with this convo. Look at the sheets and numbers, or uninstall.

[lime jolt]

yea chill, im just sayin

i also understand and it is kinda boring to take 0.8 (?) dmg from hightier drifters in fullplate

[prisma basin]

Muskets are just overkill and overexpenditure on basically anything besides bosses,and the bigger,tougher animals from Fauna of the Stone Age.

[lime jolt]

but i just think forcing one to have fullchain now to achieve same defense you used to have

kinda sucks

i just think its too big of a nerf

but owell

im up for the challenge regardless

[prisma basin]

In vanilla,plate armour was made with mail in the crafting recipes,because it quite correctly simulated wearing full plate armour. Layers of protection.
Here in CO,the layers are made discrete and parallel. So plate no longer has mail built in.

[mellow light]

Ofc it's overkill

Thats the fucking intent

It's a steel tier weapon lol

[lime jolt]

it has no plate built in, but doesnt it have same debuffs as vanilla fullplate?

which does have chain in it, supposedly

ah well, whatever

ill just be sad elsewhere

no point of voicing myself if theres just people tryharding

[prisma basin]

Protip: Approach games and mods on their terms.

[mellow light]

Ngl, it was kinda nice when I got fully armored up, and could sit and watch the wolf try to eat my face and do barely anything.

Like, I could take it out easily but I wanted a snack, so I let it try to chew on me

[hallow bolt]

tbh if it really bothered someone, they can just edit the values

brb making my improvised armor have 25 piercing resist

[mellow light]

It's such a big difference that I was genuinely encourage to actually use armor

[graceful bridge]

Iron plate, chain, and regular gamb put wolves down to 0.1 damage.

Post "nerf"

[mellow light]

I didn't even have Iron plate, I was sitting with some iron brigadine and copper chain

And no gamb at all

[hallow bolt]

as my team's chef, the only armor I care about is Slashing lol

fuck grizzly bears

[prisma basin]

I thought bears do blunt and slashing both,since big and heavy,and they tend to do heavy slams.

[graceful bridge]

They do slashing only afaik

[prisma basin]

Hmm. Nifty to know.

[graceful bridge]

And that set would get you 0.4 damage

[prisma basin]

Sorta sad that brigandine is basically a meme,though.

[graceful bridge]

How do you figure?

[prisma basin]

Expense compared to protection,especially compared to scale or plate.

[mellow light]

I feel like some ppl forget you can also find or buy armor lol

Unless you play on a gamemode where you can't in which case ye fair

[graceful bridge]

Huh. I thought it was cheaper than plate with the same slash protection but weaker pierce but I may be mistaken.

[prisma basin]

In my experience,it tends to be more practical to craft everything you can.

Cheaper than plate,but not by much,so with the protection and costs... why not just splash another couple ingots for plate?

[mellow light]

Ingots you may not have?

[prisma basin]

looks at the sheer mind-numbing size of copper and iron deposits

[graceful bridge]

Its not a bad mentality

[mellow light]

I will be fair the only armor I've actually bothered making is iron chain, everything else I got is looted or bought. RA was nice to me

[prisma basin]

Man,I have way too much lead on a run that's sworn off guns as a matter of practicality (Blackguards can't aim for shit). Any trade goods I can make from lead?

[graceful bridge]

Its cheaper and easier to produce, same penalties, and just a slight decrease of pierce protection

[prisma basin]

I obsessively mine lead because I'm spoiling for silver.

[graceful bridge]

Moly lanterns.

[hallow bolt]

nothing you can trade for but you can make moly lanterns

[prisma basin]

Literally nothing I can sell?

Crapbaskets...

[hallow bolt]

also I still would use a gun as a blackguard

just pointblank them

[prisma basin]

I've been making Molybdachalkos (sp?) lanterns,but my intake exceeds my expense.

[graceful bridge]

Pistol and shield my beloved.

[prisma basin]

...Blackguards in full battle rattle can't aim for shit. And the reload times are bonkers.

And ranged weapons are ranged weapons.

[hallow bolt]

its a good thing you're in melee

just shoot them anyways?

if you miss at 1 meter range, pure skill issue

[graceful bridge]

Theres only so much inaccuracy. And you reload before you armor up.

[prisma basin]

Why? A sword would be more effective at that distance.

[mellow light]

If you consider a blunderbuss to be mostly ranged, I'd laugh my ass off. It's a fucking shotgun

[hallow bolt]

sword does like 5.5 damage max....

the weakest gun possible does 12

[graceful bridge]

Because gun.

[prisma basin]

And then keep on going. Twice a second.

[mellow light]

I wasn't joking when I said the weakest gun can one shot a wolf lol

[hallow bolt]

wow they'd be useful in a horde game

[prisma basin]

A Blackguard reloading a pistol (Which they can't even craft) gets... One shot per minute.

[hallow bolt]

a good thing its not a horde game

[graceful bridge]

Sometimes, you just need to shoot to get the point across.

[hallow bolt]

also enemies have armor and they have 0 armor vs blunt (except bears)

[graceful bridge]

That's true. I play Blackguard in a small server

[hallow bolt]

so your sword might be doing like 3 damage

but the gun will always do at least 12

[mellow light]

Honestly, why bother with swords when you have mace?

[prisma basin]

Because Blackguards swing swords 50% faster than anyone else.

[graceful bridge]

Greatswords are fun

[hallow bolt]

if you have a high enough quality sword, the +30% attack speed starts winning

but otherwise yeah quarterstaff and mace are better

[graceful bridge]

Greatsword blocking is 👌

[prisma basin]

Parry and riposte!
With six feet of sharpened,tempered steel.

[hallow bolt]

I have no doubt that the quarterstaff is getting nerfed

trivializes melee combat

except vs bears

[prisma basin]

I literally Sekiro'd the Eidolon with a bronze staff.

Hopped the slams,parried the claps,whacked it in the optic.

[hallow bolt]

my friend insists on using the longsword

[prisma basin]

I mean,at bronze,it's the best a Blackguard can get.

And when wielded ***properly,***as in with both hands firmly upon the hilt,it swings quick.

[hallow bolt]

quarterstaff

[graceful bridge]

Quarterstaff at bronze level would be my pick

[hallow bolt]

I honestly considered being a clockmaker instead of hunter solely for that +30% attack speed on quarterstaff

but +50% accuracy on hunter feels good

and the +30% attack speed on hunter means I can kill the bear menace

[prisma basin]

I wonder what I'd need to do,in order to make Fauna of the Stone Age animals compliant with CO...?

[hallow bolt]

sacrifice Tobias to Dave UwU

[mellow light]

Sacrifice Tobias and work with the mod authors /hj

[prisma basin]

I wager rhinos would laugh off slashing damage.

[hallow bolt]

Do they even get the armor stuff from CO?

[prisma basin]

Nope.

[mellow light]

By default prob not

[prisma basin]

Which is why I want to make them CO compliant.

[hallow bolt]

ah I see

[mellow light]

I'd imagine a compat mod could be made tho

[hallow bolt]

based on CO balance, animals are resistant to blunt and slashing usually

but 0 piercing resist

[mellow light]

No wonder the guns are reccomended to use against animals

[hallow bolt]

? guns do blunt

crossbows and spears do piercing

crossbows for hunting animals
guns for rust monsters

[prisma basin]

Until the animals reach beyond a certain scale.

I doubt an arbalest is gonna be entirely handy against a mammoth,compared to a musket,for example.

Assuming the mammoth is CO compliant.

[mellow light]

Each gun in the Firearms mod is recommended a different set of animals on the page.

Fuck, pistols literally are mentioned to one shot wolves

And they do

[hallow bolt]

ah yeah wolves have shit blunt resist

[prisma basin]

Bows: Slashing. Generalist damage type.
Crossbows: Piercing. Anti-animals damage type.
Guns: Blunt. Anti-Rust damage type.

[hallow bolt]

by CO standards, it'd have 0 piercing resist

[mellow light]

I'd need to check again, for bears I believe it's Musket

[hallow bolt]

even Polar and Grizzly bears have 0 piercing resist

[prisma basin]

Columbian mammoths can have anywhere from 110 to 220 HP.

[hallow bolt]

yeah Musket have 9 blunt tier so it'd get past bear hide

[prisma basin]

And they can instagib even a well-fed Blackguard,if he's unarmoured.

[hallow bolt]

clearly we need cannons in VS

[mellow light]

Tbf, anything can insta give anything without armor that's kinda the point.

[hallow bolt]

Organ Gun when?

[prisma basin]

Tally-ho,lads!

[mellow light]

Rusty Guns might get an update eventually and I believe it has Firearms compat

[prisma basin]

I suspect that a Columbian mammoth can instagib a well-fed Blackguard in even bronze armour.

[prisma basin]

Rusty Shell,you mean.

[hallow bolt]

lol I wonder what you'd even use a cannon for

[mellow light]

Yes that

[hallow bolt]

oh right the bowtorn swarm

[mellow light]

Names are hard

[mellow light]

I sleep thru Temp storms, so I thankfully haven't encountered that yet

[prisma basin]

Hand grenades.
Also,Bowtorn are chumps.

[hallow bolt]

we usually kill them because we love gambling for the double-headed drifter

[prisma basin]

They can't lead a moving target. They make an effortlessly traced distinctive noise whenever they begin aiming. Move perpendicular,and when they shoot,dive them.
If you need some extra confidence,shields exist.

[mellow light]

With us maybe getting Sights for Musket, I really want the ability to sit on a small tower and snipe some bowtorn lol

[hallow bolt]

you think that's for us?

na the bowtorns are getting Kentucky Longrifles next update

UwU

[prisma basin]

Imagine some manner of Rust monstrosity that's fused to an organ gun.

[mellow light]

Also tbh, guns are terrible against rust due to reload speeds

There's only one gun that can fire more than one shot at a time

[hallow bolt]

that only matters in large numbers

you only need the gun to kill the actually dangerous ones

like Gearheads

[prisma basin]

So... you wanna know how this issue was handled historically?

Carry. More. Guns.

[hallow bolt]

^

the argument "haha reload slow" means literally nothing in this game

when fights are like 1-3 at most

[prisma basin]

Six pistols and a dagger with that scallywag swagger.

I literally rocked a staff,a knife,and seven guns during my Clockmaker run.

[mellow light]

I only carry like, 2 maybe 3

So I get maybe 4 shots. Arquebus isn't reliable enough for my tastes so I carry 2 pistols and a Bossi

[prisma basin]

I barely ever needed to use my staff. Which was intentional.

[hallow bolt]

I used a spear so I could kill bears

the only good gun vs bears is the Musket :c

[prisma basin]

I managed to Sekiro a few bears with my staff.

But *man,*their animations are a bear (heh) to read.

[hallow bolt]

yeah especially because they have a tendency to just hit before their animation starts lol

[prisma basin]

Shortswords get Dark Souls parries. Really damn slick to pull those off.

[hallow bolt]

god we wanted to use them + shields for the vibe

but the range being less than 1 block was whew

[prisma basin]

Also. Does CO basically forbid attacks from the side if you're in a narrow space?

I had issues where I was in a doorway,but my staff couldn't hit enemies.

[hallow bolt]

good question because I had a similar issue before too

but not sure

[prisma basin]

Iron greatswords are basically claymores and steel greatswords are basically zweihanders,yeah?

[green shadow]

im not surviving polar bears with this new armor changes xd

[hallow bolt]

yeah I'm just going to edit the values to be like +2 or +3 levels higher

[green shadow]

polar bears do 24 slashing on ws

i feel like the only way you gonna get protection now is by stacking 3 armors layers

[prisma basin]

Hmm. You mean as you're supposed to?

[green shadow]

i dont want to wear heavy armor 😭

[prisma basin]

It's not a problem,honestly.

[green shadow]

steel scale + gambesson will not protect you much

[prisma basin]

With the rework,bears will deal,like... one damage per hit.

[green shadow]

tier 7 slashing

[prisma basin]

With that setup.

Steel full plate,you can probably box a bear to death.

(As in,steel plate,steel mail,and gambeson.)

[green shadow]

tier 7 slashing against polar bear is 15 damage taken

on ws

[prisma basin]

What does WS mean?

[green shadow]

wilderness survival

[prisma basin]

Okay.
Most people play on Standard.

[green shadow]

-5 player helth points and +50% damage done by enemies

[prisma basin]

And that's not the typical format.

The typical format is the Standard template.

[green shadow]

i think im gonna be just wearing gambesson and accept the fact that i dont have protection against pierce or slashing

i dont wanna stack 3 layers of armor

[prisma basin]

So... you don't want to use armour as it's meant to be used.
So,you don't want to use armour at all.

[green shadow]

because im playing a ranged character and i dont want to have 50% penalty to aim

if im stacking armor i might as well .charsel into a blackguard

[prisma basin]

Do what I did.
Use an open helm over a mail coif over a gamboised cap,and skip the arm armour. Everywhere else gets gambeson,mail,and plate.

Minimal to zero penalties to reload and aim stats. Maximal protection everywhere that matters... except the face and neck. You're rolling the bones on that.

CO has armour pieces for a reason.

Armour does its job. Protection matters. Everyone wants armour. But not everyone wants armour everywhere.

Gamboised cap. Mail coif. Open helm. Gambeson. Mail shirt. Cuirass. Gamboised leg armour. Mail leg armour. Plate leg armour.
Maximized protection while minimizing ranged combat penalties.

[green shadow]

scale is kinda pointless now

[prisma basin]

Apparently it's for people who don't want heavy armour.

I'm of the opinion that if you're wearing armour,you're wearing the heaviest armour you can get away with.

Going halfway is just going to get you killed,in my opinion.

Ranged combatants wear full plate everywhere but their head (Coif and open helm) and arms (Gambeson only). Melee combatants wear full plate head to toe.

[fallow surge]

You mean 120 MOA dispersion is too much and makes it a melee weapon?

[prisma basin]

The less-protected arms,face,and neck of the ranged combat setup risks sudden death,considering the five times damage multiplier on the neck.

However,ranged combatants are also inherently at less risk,since they engage from further out.

[fallow surge]

What!? it has 2x multiplier

[prisma basin]

I thought it was five times.

Still,risking sudden death. An acceptable exchange regardless.

Also,I'm not factoring in Exoskeletons in this. An Exoskeleton is a universal endgame suit of armour. By design,it's full plate from the shoulders down,with your choice of arms determining whether or not you can aim properly.

[fallow surge]

There is second chance mechanic that will prevent sudden death

[mellow light]

What's MOA?

[fallow surge]

minute of angle

[prisma basin]

Ancient firearms term.

Basically turning your sight angle relative to your muzzle into a clock.

MOA measures in fractions of degrees.

So,120 MoA is basically a 1.2 degrees deviation from point of aim.

I think.

[mellow light]

I'ma be honest

My thought of a blunderbuss was more that it's better as closer ranges because you'd be able to hit what you are pointing at

[prisma basin]

Up close,means nothing.
At a distance,it means a whole lot.

[fallow surge]

Minute of angle is just a 1/60th of a degree

[prisma basin]

Aah,so two degrees.

[fallow surge]

pretty standard unit of measure

[prisma basin]

In firearms circles. It's a hyperspecialized term.

[mellow light]

I am not a firearms enthusiast, this is complete news to me lol

[fallow surge]

Have you tried it out?

[prisma basin]

Moles are a standardised unit of measure.
But it's only used in chemistry.

[mellow light]

Somewhat. My impression was early shotgun

[prisma basin]

120 MoA means the Blunderbuss is accurate out to medium range.

So... shotgun.

[fallow surge]

Yeah, and everyone knows them from school

[fallow surge]

It is like escape from tarkov shotgun, not stereotypical gamy shotgun

[prisma basin]

And MoA,while a standardised unit of measure,is only used in firearms circles.
It's hyperspecialised. Niche. It's unreasonable to assume anyone and everyone knows what it means.

[mellow light]

Moles are taught to you maybe twice and then never used in most irl applications outside of chemistry

[prisma basin]

Standard video game shotgun: Shoots antimatter that turns into cotton candy and glitter after five metres.

IRL/STALKER/VS Firearms shotgun: Obliterates soft targets out to about fifty metres,but hopeless against proper armour.

[fallow surge]

There is no damage drop in CO btw

[prisma basin]

I figured. In the context of CO anf Firearms,the blunderbuss is less effective at longer range because of both your two degree deviation from point of aim,and the fact that the pellets spread out as they fly.

And,presumably,drop into the ground after a distance.

Though,I've consistently had nonsense aiming problems with arquebuses.

Like,aiming right for an enemy's center mass,and I miss.

At any range.

Still... there's sudden death insurance?

[fallow surge]

just go into creative and shoot into a target made of blocks

If your arms height is changed in setting it will affect aiming too

[lime jolt]

@fallow surge are you decided on the armor nerfs? Kinda curious what you think on that, without tryhard brigade tryharding around

If intended way is to use plate with chainmail below, are penalties gonna get moved around respectively? Because feels bit of a bummer to now have to suffer alot more penalties to have same level of protection...

[fallow surge]

I rebalanced armor so the strongest attacks deal around 0.9 damage to strongest armor, and also so there is less armor tiers and they have more noticeable difference between them (like you have a reason to go from 13 to 14 armor tier)

[lime jolt]

By strongest armor you mean steelplate+steelchain+tailoredgambeson?

[prisma basin]

With this armour setup,on a Clockmaker,I barely noticed any penalties. I was typically an unstoppable juggernaut,unless RNG threw an attack at my neck or face. And I suspect that this will not change in the rework.

Armour's layered for a reason. Because you're expected to use them,and that's how armour worked historically.

[fallow surge]

Need to add hide armor as stone age underarmor, but I dont want to model and texture it

[prisma basin]

Gank the hide clothes models from vanilla?

[fallow surge]

may be

[lime jolt]

Maybe you could like just textureswap wood lamellar?

Think it has quite monotonous texture so just swapping it to hide texture may look good

Also... How bad is chainmail debuffs?

[prisma basin]

I personally find the idea of stone age armour to be odd.
It's fragile,barely protective,and consumes some of your more valuable materials at that point.
But the wicker shields are uncontestably amazing investments in the stone age.

[lime jolt]

I used to run in gambeson and toss plate when needed, so... Its either i toss on chain too now, or i run around in chain+gambeson

[prisma basin]

Mail's penalties tend to top out at about five to ten percent,if you're bedecked head to toe with the heaviest stuff in each slot.

Total.

[fallow surge]

Chain is meant to be an addition to plate, and the only reason to wear it instead of scale is if you plan to make plate to wear over it

[prisma basin]

However,you need to understand that armour should not be worn 24/7.

[lime jolt]

I know, thats what i mean by "toss on", only when combat is expected

[fallow surge]

I need to rework armor-stands for it to be feasible

[prisma basin]

It's inconvenient for your day-to-day,makes healing difficult,if not impossible if you're done up like Henry VIII. And it passively degrades while worn,and is non-trivial to service.

[prisma basin]

I tend to throw my armour into a trunk when I'm not on an expedition.

[lime jolt]

Oh yeah armor stands would be nice, swapping armor faster would definetely help

Does shift+click armor in inventory equip it or just sends it to free hotbar slot?

[fallow surge]

Fullest armor reduces healing by 82% (at least after rebalance), so it is not impossible

[prisma basin]

Okay,still makes first-aid a pain in the ass.

So... Strip your armour,then bandage up.
Or snarf that Expanded Foods muffin.

[fallow surge]

Btw, you all can help with releasing this armor balancing: #1260976245374582886 message

[lime jolt]

Help how? Suggesting changes?

[fallow surge]

look into the link

[lime jolt]

Nvm, discord sent me to wrong post, my bad

[prisma basin]

Looks like... copy/pasting from spreadsheet to code.

[fallow surge]

Not to code, just into json patch

[prisma basin]

Which is code.

[fallow surge]

It isn't

It is not executed or compiled

[prisma basin]

Is it text instructions to a program?
If so,it's code.

[fallow surge]

It is just data

[fallow surge]

Actually is is hunger rate, healing effectiveness reduced by 72%

[fallow surge]

Also not just copy paste, you need to sum stats from body parts that armor covers, so some basic calculations too

[prisma basin]

Oh,wow. A Blackguard with sword and board while in full wargear,and using Xskills with the Abundance Adaption skill learned,is gonna be a HONGRY boi.

[lime jolt]

If new chain+plate combo is meant to replace what currently plate alone can provide - will penalties also be split accordingly between chain and plate?

Otherwise i feel like all that will be bit too debilitating..

[prisma basin]

As Maltiez said,you were never meant to wear plate alone.

Plate and mail are a matched pair.

If you don't want mail or plate,you wear scale.

You won't be as well protected that way,but it's something. Better than just gambeson.

Ultimately,you're meant to fill your slots.

The penalties are,quite frankly,not something to go berserk over.

[mellow light]

Just keep an eye on the damn hunger mostly lol

[lime jolt]

Didnt ask you

[mellow light]

You didn't ask anyone specific, so you got an answer

[prisma basin]

Too bad. Open forum and conversation. And I happen to know a thing or two about design.

[lime jolt]

@fallow surge people demand i target my question, so sorry for the ping - #1260976245374582886 message

[mellow light]

Lol, I demanded nothing, I just pointed it out

[prisma basin]

The speed penalty is only meaningful if you're pursuing Bowtorn. For them,you can shed your leg armour and dive it.
The hunger rate penalty is naturally offset by meals.
The manipulation and aim penalties can be sidestepped entirely with proper armour choice,trading some coverage for competent ranged performance.
The healing effectiveness penalty is less relevant when you're taking less than one damage per hit. And if you do need to heal,you can wait until combat's over before you shed some armour and apply bandages. Or snarf an Expanded Foods muffin.

[green shadow]

are there any changes to leather armor and brigandine?

[lime jolt]

Not even gonna read lmao

[mellow light]

Man, the muffins are strong with this one /lh

[prisma basin]

Then you're arguing in bad faith and are purely ideologically driven.

Logic and reason mean nothing to you. Only unreasoning emotion.

[mellow light]

No idea but it works decently for surface and low level underground.

[green shadow]

brigandine is a downgrade from plate with same penalties but a bit cheaper i guess

leather armor i dont understand

it has medium penalties, takes two layers, offers low protection

[lime jolt]

Nah, ill just wait for answer from person who matters

[mellow light]

With all due respect, quit being a dick

[graceful bridge]

@fallow surge I'm filling out the armor JSON, and your spreedsheet didn't include Gold and special armors.

[prisma basin]

Leather """armour""" confuses me,honestly. It didn't exist historically as a protective layer,rather as a mounting layer or waterproofing layer. And to get leather as protective against weapons as a gambeson,you're looking at so much material and labour expense that it rapidly approaches economic nonviability.

Hell,leather isn't even a decent insulator.

[mellow light]

Tbf, in vanilla, it is generally a step towards other armors than one you'd actually use

[lime jolt]

Oh im sorry, im trying my best not to be, just tired of this tryhard dumping walls of text to everything i say while im not interested in his opinion even one bit

[mellow light]

I think it's a crafting requirement for chainmail in vanilla

[green shadow]

you can block people that you find annoying, Ulti

[prisma basin]

Honestly,that just perfectly illustrates that they don't care about logic and reason.

[mellow light]

Not sure if it is in CO, haven't looked

[prisma basin]

They're emotional,and want their emotional response to be validated.

[lime jolt]

Yeah, shouldve done that faster, my bad

[mellow light]

Going back to this, on top of what I've said already, I never got the impression you are meant to use it as actual armor.

[prisma basin]

Yeah,admittedly,I'm more commenting on the trope of leather """armour""" in media in general.

It just... baffles me.

[mellow light]

Comes from fantasy mostly

[graceful bridge]

Ya know, these JSON's are actually crazy customizable. You could just balance the game yourself.

[mellow light]

Leather armor is the fantastical armor of rogues and whatnot

[prisma basin]

Aah,fantasy. The same place where the fiction of "plate armour makes you ponderously slow" and "Large weapons are slow" come from.

[lime jolt]

Yeah, true, but you know, always better if it was balanced out of the box

[mellow light]

Pretty much

And tbf, it ain't like anyone ever said VS was entirely historically accurate

[lime jolt]

Not casual but not darksouls either

[graceful bridge]

Your entitlement amazes me.

[prisma basin]

True. But VS does take pains to be authentic-to-reality in most of its things.

[graceful bridge]

You're not paying for this.

[lime jolt]

Huh? Entitlement? Im just voicing my opinions here

[mellow light]

True, but at the same time, sometimes having a bit of fantasy doesn't hurt, esp if it makes earning the good armor worth it

[graceful bridge]

In my opinion, you're coming off as entitled and least bit willing to own up to being a dick.

[lime jolt]

Having good balance is as integral as, say, not having your mod crash and destroy your game, is just a sign of quality

[graceful bridge]

Where's your mods?

[prisma basin]

I've said it elsewhere,but I'll also say it here: Full plate armour,if properly made and fitted to the wearer,will not impair their flexibility in any meaningful way. If they have the physical conditioning to use that armour,which is a very safe assumption if they have bespoke armour to begin with,then it won't slow them down any during a battle. What it will do is present a long-term fatigue issue while on march or during protracted battles,which the vanilla hunger rate penalty amazingly simulates.

[lime jolt]

What mods?

[graceful bridge]

Tell us of quality.

Where's your quality mods?

Show us how it's done.

[lime jolt]

What a bad argument, i have no say in how i feel like about balance because i dont make mods?

Im entitled to my own opinion, tyvm

[prisma basin]

I agree with the entitled prick,Smorez. Appeal to Authority a fallacy for a reason.

He is being an entitled prick,though.

[graceful bridge]

It's not appeal to authority. It's asking someone to put up or shut up.

[prisma basin]

The fact of the matter is that Ulti's not paying Malt for this. So they're not entitled to any product.

Whether or not Ulti can produce a product of their own is not a factor.

[graceful bridge]

And I'm saying if they think they know better, to show it.

[lime jolt]

I dont know what you are talking about, but i believe changes like that can be discussed

Which i do

And if you have problems with what i say - maybe just block me like i blocked that other person lol

[prisma basin]

Your proposed changes are divorced from play. Hell,you had no idea what penalties mail imposes,while simultaneously berserking over hating the penalties that mail imposes.

That is your problem.

You argue from ignorance.

Before you open your yawp,educate yourself.

As someone who's played with three layers of armour on for almost all body regions,and approached that as a *default,*the penalties genuinely don't feel too bad.

[keen veldt]

the beef that can be resolved by just looking at the spreadsheet values…

[lime jolt]

Ywah, but also im very disappointed when only tryhards and people who make mods are only ones who are allowed to talk about balance state

Because otherwise my opinion is not valid or something

[prisma basin]

Pfft. If knowing the bare minimum makes me a tryhard,then a tryhard I'll be.

[keen veldt]

It’s discord

[mellow light]

Tryhards? You mean ppl who actually looked at the data?

[keen veldt]

you type the message your opinion is read

and tbh it’s all upto maltiez

he will read it if you post it here

even if others shit on you for it

it’s his mod and his to decide and he does read stuff here

[lime jolt]

No, people who claim that you must not go to woods because they are dangerous and claim that bears emit sounds at all times so they are always perceptable and you always can control if you encounter them or not. These kinds of people

[lime jolt]

Yep yep! I know that

[mellow light]

...maybe because yes, woods are dangerous lol

[graceful bridge]

The way you're acting drives mod devs away from the scene. Unless you intend to make better mods, your actions reduce my fun.

[lime jolt]

I would imagine a fullplate armor would mitigate alot of that

[prisma basin]

Facts don't care about your precious and evidently hypersensitive emotions.

[graceful bridge]

Part of the reason I'm doing the balancing legwork for Maltiez rn is because I don't want him to burnout, and you aren't helping.

[lime jolt]

And currently it does but its gonna get changed into not being the case

[prisma basin]

Ulti defines full plate as, "Plate,with nothing beneath it."

When plates are only one third of a larger system.

[keen veldt]

you can counter some of the debuffs by choosing specific classes @lime jolt if that helps

regarding the new rebalance

[lime jolt]

Hence my original question - it makes full sense to use combined chain+plate as new change would have you, but having combined debuffs to everything from wearing gambeson+chain+plate is waay too debilitating

[prisma basin]

As someone who played with the full three layers...
They're not.

[keen veldt]

Hunter & clockmaker I think will make you go faster etc

plus you can abuse elk to go faster atm

but I get why you think they’re too much for your play style atm

as some people like it some don’t

and that’s all g to have your own view

🙏

[lime jolt]

Yeah i know about classes, but in all of them i think pros do not outweight the cons so i just go commoner

[keen veldt]

Yea some of the penalties are a lot, albeit in my eyes it’s to make a downside to being so overly protected

It’s kinda like classes in RPG games

[lime jolt]

I also run exclusive recipes off, because i strongly believe that its purpose is specialisation for multiplayer, while i play solo

[keen veldt]

you don’t always max out armour stats let’s say

you could run brigandid for more speed etc

[keen veldt]

valid

I do the same sometimes on Co op w friends lmao

[lime jolt]

So my stance on classes is kinda same

Yee

[fallow surge]

gold/silver - same as copper
forlorn - iron plate but with player stats of chain
blackguard - iron plate

[graceful bridge]

Rad. I cross referenced your before and afters in the old spreadsheet

[prisma basin]

Forlorn Hope is pretty damn ornamental... makes sense it's sacrificing some protection for that sheer style.

[fallow surge]

not stats stats, but player stats like walkspeed

[prisma basin]

Meanwhile,Blackguard looks like it's been slapped together with as much sturdy material as the smith could get their mitts on. It looks like a disaster,but it works.

[graceful bridge]

Check this out. Changed the armor values and fixed Leather Plate's location. I didn't check the movement stats.

@fallow surge

[lime jolt]

I agree, it is a necessity, i do find it weird to take zero damage from high tier monster, but then again i would believe that having a fullplate would allow you to survive bears more than just couple hits.

[graceful bridge]

Hope it saves you some time.

[keen veldt]

tbh I imagine IRL the bear would instantly give you a concussion

[lime jolt]

I would even say monsters of high tier to not be comparable to a bear of that same tier, as monsters are alot more slow and predictable

[keen veldt]

then you would just die from the sheer blunt force trauma

and be stuck on the ground due to the weight of the armour after the bear attack haha

[lime jolt]

Yeah, but id imagine the cloth padded armor is against that

[mellow light]

It's really not

[lime jolt]

That would be protective from concussion, but sadly in VS bear just deals slasing damage

[fallow surge]

why leather jerkin body has walkspeed of 2%? It is padded torso and should have 1% according to spreadsheet
lamellar-wood legs cover Legs and Feet and should have 4%+4% = 8% walkspeed

[graceful bridge]

Sorry, I didn't check any of those player stats. I'll need a second pass for those.

[fallow surge]

what do you mean by leather plate location?

[prisma basin]

So,is Blackguard equivalent to crafted iron plate as far as protection,coverage,and offsets go?

[fallow surge]

Layers?

[lime jolt]

Ah well... Mister maltiez seem to not answer me, so at least i hope he read it and took it into consideration... Ill bow away as it would seem my opinions are not popular here, just hope that i wont have to uninstall this because of tryhard pandering...

[fallow surge]

Yes

[prisma basin]

So,the difference is pretty much just fashion.

[fallow surge]

This channel is spammed the hell out

[lime jolt]

Ye pls dont stress it!... Just such big changes feel jarring, is all

If thats how you want it to be - is all good

[keen veldt]

oh no irl even with padding you’ll be getting issues whether it’s your neck on a heavy strike, concussion, or even brain damage lol

plate armour is good IRL but not perfect

[graceful bridge]

The Leather body armor, helmet, and greaves were Middle/Outer. I changed that to Outer.

[keen veldt]

especially if you had a bear try to maul you

ingame though I get your point

[lime jolt]

Yeah i know! But with new changes it makes it like what... 7 damage without chainmail?

[prisma basin]

Maces and polehammers were the go-to knight slayers for this very reason.

[keen veldt]

better than no armour haha

[lime jolt]

Yeah true!...

[keen veldt]

yea armour was like 1.6mm thick in some places

esp the gorgets later on too

CO has polehammers which is cool

[prisma basin]

Gothic plate got to much thicker,especially on the helm and breastplate,but that's the exception.
And also where the whole, "Full plate deflected guns" idea comes from.

[fallow surge]

Bear is meant to be the strongest animal and strongest surface enemy

[keen veldt]

bear is akin to the warden in Minecraft to VS

[prisma basin]

Looking at VS armour designs,I'd call the full plate... I wanna say post-Gothic.

[keen veldt]

100% not early plate lol

more 1500s to me atleast

[lime jolt]

But is it meant to be only properly survivable if you are suffering massive debuffs from huge hulking sets of armor?

[keen veldt]

Musket time.

should help murder the bears

[green shadow]

it was pretty much perfect, even specialised anti armor tools were not amazing against it

until gunpowder started to be common at least

but most people could not afford plate

[prisma basin]

But yeah. Gothic era full plate had breastplates measuring about a centimetre and a half in thickness,and helms nearly a full centimetre thick. Heavy as ***BALLS,***but able to deflect a gun of the day,with some luck. Later full plate thinned out due to expenses,and an understanding that protecting from gunfire just wasn't practical.

[lime jolt]

Yea i use firearms to some degree but its difficult to use when your face is already being partially digested in bears mouth saliva

[mellow light]

Plate also wasn't a common infantry armor

[fallow surge]

Open helment and cuirass hardly have any debufs and will protect you well enough most of the time, for other time you have second chance mechanic. And the intended solution if you dont have armor to engage in melee without shield is to not do it.

[keen veldt]

yup esp when the gentry could use plate more

Everyone had that nice little bullet mark in their armour

[prisma basin]

Plate armour was for the nobility and royalty.
Exclusively.
Borderline impossible to mass produce,too.

[keen veldt]

later on landowners had it

then like 100 years later no one used it lmao minus the cuirass

[prisma basin]

Which is nobility in a system where land ownership determines status. Also known as feudalism.

[keen veldt]

Oh 100% well off but not exactly just knights was my point I was trying to say

[green shadow]

this time around i will be using shield with a mace on my clockmaker, i think

[keen veldt]

Still nobility for sure

[green shadow]

shields are better then 2h block?

[prisma basin]

Comparing a copper light shield with a copper shortsword...
Not on your life.

Weapon parries clown all over shield parries.

[fallow surge]

I future updates weapons wont be able to block projectiles, only shields will

[lime jolt]

So... The idea of newest change is to require chainmail for high protection, rather than plate alone providing that on its own?

[green shadow]

that makes sense

[prisma basin]

A copper shortsword boasts a full-body T9 parry,while a copper light shield only boasts a full-body T5 parry.

[green shadow]

you can block with a shield while using a pistol too

[prisma basin]

On the one hand,this makes perfect sense.
On the other,I always liked the thought of making good on the line, "I've heard that Witchers can parry bolts in flight."

[fallow surge]

Nothing is required, if you want higher protection you can wear chainmail.
Previously armor was providing so much protection that there was no point in layering it, it was a bug with balance

[lime jolt]

Oh, i see then

Well, sure then! Ill leave then before i irritate you and others more

[prisma basin]

Malt: If I wear greaves and cuisses,will that provide more,less,or the same protection and offsets as wearing all-in-one leg armour from the same material?

[lime jolt]

Take care, love the mod!

[green shadow]

poor little me with 12 average health and 50% more entity damage 😂

[prisma basin]

You're the one who insists on playing on the self-imposed challenge preset.

[fallow surge]

all in one exists because it is vanilla armor, if there were no vanilla armor I would just leave it split into peaces, so the only reason to craft all-in-one it to have less armor pieces to manage

[prisma basin]

Alright,so the pieces equal to the same protection and offsets as the all-in-ones for the region? Noted.

[fallow surge]

yes

[prisma basin]

I didn't need to use cuisses and greaves separately on my Clockmaker.

That said,you can probably do some serious Fashion Souls by mixing and matching pieces.

[fallow surge]

Or you can craft armor piece by piece as you acquire materials or time for it, and then replace it piece by piece when it is time to upgrade

[prisma basin]

That,too.

But,considering the size of copper and iron deposits,I don't think you'll be having to do that much.

[fallow surge]

Iron takes time to process into ingots

[prisma basin]

...Am I unique in my habit of setting up sixteen bloomeries at a time?

[mellow light]

I only have 4 bloomeriws and 2 helvehammers

I don't have that much fire clay lol

[prisma basin]

I go looking for coal all the time.

Which tends to mean plenty of fire clay.

[fallow surge]

please lets reduce offtopic stuff here, this stuff is making it very hard for me to follow this thread

[green shadow]

Matliez, are you changing leather armor and brigandine too?

[fallow surge]

What do you mean?

If you mean rebalancing, it affects all armor

[green shadow]

i see, didnt so changes for them in the file so i want to clarify

[fallow surge]

In what file?

[green shadow]

the one you shared couple of days ago

[fallow surge]

The file I shared is one from before balancing, and I shared is so someone can replace values with rebalanced ones

[green shadow]

leather armor always struck me as the one completely lacking purpose, as it has same penalties as scale while having poorer protection

just because it does not uses metal does not meat its easier/faster to make then metal armor

imo

i guess protection values will be nerfed on it as well?

[fallow surge]

Leather plate armor is an alternative to copper scale armor, it has better blunt protection but worse piercing. At least before rebalancing

[fallow surge]

May be, you can look into the table and say me if it now protects worse or better

[green shadow]

leather boiled?

[fallow surge]

Yes, plate leather armor is meant to be hard boiled leather, not this fantasy modern stretched thin leather

[green shadow]

oh, it only takes outer layer now?

[fallow surge]

Yes...

Something wrong with it?

[green shadow]

it used to take both outer and middle, like a scale

[fallow surge]

Now it does not

[green shadow]

its listed as plate, does it have the same penalties?

[fallow surge]

Yes

[green shadow]

then i dont see why would anyone use it, its a mostly downgrade from copper plate and completely a downgrade from bronze plate

jump from copper age to bronze age is not a long one

[fallow surge]

It has 1 less piercing/shash protection but 1 more blunt protection

[green shadow]

and just because it takes no metal to make does meant its easier

[fallow surge]

it is a copper age alternative that is easier to make especialy if you have excess of leather

[green shadow]

seems like a waste of leather for a very little benifit

[fallow surge]

Why not compare it to copper brigandine, they are comparable by efford to craft them and leather have 8 points in protection but brigandine 7 with same penalties.

[green shadow]

i think its easier to get copper/bronze for a metal armor then enough leather for a leather "plate"

[fallow surge]

I always has an excess of leather with no good ways to use it, also metal armor requires a lot of smithing, especially plate cuiras, it is much easier to craft leather armor

[green shadow]

i guess it can protect you from upper caves drifters on normal settings

[uneven trench]

Once you get a good tannin set, your limit is lime and how much leather you can make

[fallow surge]

If you have chalk or limestone nearby you have unlimited lime essentially

[uneven trench]

at least this rebalance will make me use my tin bronze chains

[green shadow]

a good point to make, in my world im leather starved as no oaks spawn

and i rely on infrequent animal brain drops to make some leather for bags

i guess leather plate is okay for average world

[fallow surge]

So it is situational, and it has its uses and not useless

[green shadow]

these changes feel like they aim to screw me over specifically /j

but i play on exotic world settings

[fallow surge]

How?

[green shadow]

lower defense values on everything meaning i will be in one shot range for a lot of mobs for a long time, and i never will be safe around bears

but you shouldnt balance things around 0.1% playerbase that play on masochist difficulty

tl;dr leather plate is good for most players, disregard everything i said

[hallow bolt]

Man gambeson really does help vs guns

I shot my friend twice with the wheellock carbine and he didn't die

Crossbows will do the trick once the composite finishes drying 🙏

[fallow surge]

Ok, in this case plate having such low blunt protection makes little sense...

May be I need to change firearms damage type to piercing, but then it will lose its gameplay purpose... Not sure

[green shadow]

if firearms will be doing piercing damage - im uninstalling co

[fallow surge]

Why so drammatic?

[green shadow]

im half joking, but firearms/crossbows is one of bigger reasons i have this mod installed and this change in particular will suck

bronze and iron guns will be downgraded into hunting weapons only

and arquebus is already a decent hunting weapon

firearms are balanced by their high material cost to make and operate and very long reload times, please dont nerf them

you cant kill a high tier underground enemy with a pistol but at least you can wound it severely

with tier 4 piercing damage pistol will be barely scratching them

and you can only outright kill... tier 0 surface drifters

and pistol costs like 12 ingots, class exclusive/require expensive purchase, and needs multiple different minerals to make and operate

[fallow surge]

Ok, ok, I dont plan to nerf firearms, I actually want to make them cheaper

[green shadow]

two handed greatsword require less metal then a pistol

[hollow pasture]

Visored sallet with a bevor would be exceptional

[hollow pasture]

For traditional weapons maybe, but a musket is tier 9

[green shadow]

arquebus is tier 6 blunt and good against all animals except bears

pistol/bronze carbine are good against wolves

[fallow surge]

It just dont make sense that the best protection against firearms is gambeson and not plate

But I guess pvp is not the focus, so ti should not matter

[green shadow]

if you think about it, gambesson is not dissimilar to kevlar vest

[zenith mesa]

Except that a kevlar vest is probably more rigid and way more protective.

[fallow surge]

But it cant stop a bullet, unlike proper steel cuirass

[green shadow]

after the nerf gambesson will have tier 5 blunt

[zenith mesa]

Steel armor isnt good at stopping bullets either.

[green shadow]

which only helps against pistol and arquebus to some extent

nvm, it will not help against arquebus, its tier 6

[zenith mesa]

Against a handgonne or anything like that, it's not that it can't penetrate but it needs ideal circumstances to penetrate and will do significant damage to the armor even if it does stop the round.

The best chance steel armor has to stop a round would be for it to have one solid piece (one big breastplate instead of say, two bolted pieces) and for it to deflect instead of be straight on.

Iron would likely not be good enough to stop a bullet.

[prisma basin]

It was really only Gothic-era plate armour that could stop bullets of the time,and that's largely because of how stupid thick it was,due to all of the carved reliefs as decoration.

And even then,only the breastplate and maybe the helm.

[zenith mesa]

And as far as the armor discussion goes. Plate armor should be the best armor type for protection but have significant downsides in other places, such as hunger, movement speed, cost and all the other debuffs that'd go with that. This not only gives it a good feeling of protection but also makes lighter armors more appealing for general protection. Maybe if you wanna just go explore in a cave, you don't have to bring your plate armor and you can use a less-hungry, faster and easier to handle brigandine, or scale or lamellar or something like that.
I'd also like to see layers encouraged within the mod because currently chainmail is pretty useless most of the time due to how hungry, heavy and how limited its protection really is. Slash defense is nice but theres a lot more than slash. Any benefit would be helpful of course but not when a full suit of chainmail makes me as hungry and as slow as a full suit of platemail.

As of now, I've opted to omit any chainmail layer or gambeson layer and just wear plate armor.

Only high tier blunt enemies can even hurt me like this.

This likely isn't how the system was intended to be used.

[prisma basin]

And this is exactly why Malt is rebalancing armour.

He wants us to wear all three layers.

[zenith mesa]

And that's a good thing, but to add onto that, more mixing and matching armor pieces should be encouraged. I've found it's better to make the "full suit" rather than use pieces and this makes it easier on hunger, debuffs and even inventory management.

I'd love to have some plate and some brigandine/leather on to eleviate some of the burden but it's just not worth it currently.

[prisma basin]

Honestly? As a ranged combatant,I tended to forego armour on the arms beyond gambeson.

And I used an open helm,of course.

Maximal protection,minimal ranged combat penalties.

I also think movement speed penalties should not be a thing on armour. Or,at least,low enough that the Blackguard's bonus completely negates it.

Properly made armour doesn't meaningfully encumber the wearer. Especially if they have the conditioning expected to properly wear it.

It wouldn't meaningfully impair flexibility. It wouldn't slow you down in combat. What it would do is tire you out faster,which is what hunger rate penalties model,and make it harder to perform first aid,which is what healing effectiveness penalties model.

[fallow surge]

I wore full plate armor, it does slow you down and it is more exhausting to move in it.

[prisma basin]

Because it wasn't fitted to you.

Back when full plate armour was actually something *functional,*it was always fitted to the wearer like a bespoke suit.

[fallow surge]

It was, it is just newtons law, more mass you have, slower will it move under the same force

[prisma basin]

Then there's the physicality needed,though I wager most folks with an interest in medieval and renaissance armour would be at the very least fit.

Unlike myself. I'm a butterball.

[fallow surge]

With same force it is always the case that you will move more mass slower

It is much harder to run with the same speed, and you cant do it as long, but if you put same effort, you will run slower

Anyway, it is a gameplay thing, and in full armor you will run/walk at 71% speed and manipulate stuff at 73% speed

Which is not that high of a penalty

Much lower than vanilla

[prisma basin]

Yeah,aren't you reduced to under half in vanilla?

Which is just... why?

Seventy five pounds in hand feels very different from seventy five pounds distributed across the body with the benefit of your shoulders and spine,plus the rigidity of the plates,to help carry that burden.

[fallow surge]

It is not that exhausting to just stand or sit in armor, cause indeed weight is distributed, but it is harder to move, cause you need to move a greater mass.

If you walk with normal pace it is ok, if you just handle stuff calmly it is ok, but all the fast moves like fighting and running are slower and harder.

Also chain mail should have higher penalties according to irl, cause it is redistributed not as good as plate, but weight wise it is similar. I had a full chainmail armor set with some plate elements

[prisma basin]

Mail feels heavier,because it's an amorphous blob.

Therefore,it's wholly on you to bear that weight,while plate partially supports itself due to its rigidity.

[uneven trench]

by the way, why not have the projectiles have two types of damage?

say high piercing and low slashing for bolts and vise versa for arrows

so like bullets are high blunt low piercing for higher tiers

[prisma basin]

Bullets only come in two materials. Copper and lead.

[mellow light]

i kinda wonder where the Copper one comes from

Just more common material i assume?

I wouldn't know if Lead is common or not, I have a mod that turns up resource gens

[green shadow]

copper bullet feels redundant

lead is not exactly hard to come by

and it be can melted with firewood unlike copper

[fallow surge]

ppl were strugling with lead and asked for alternatives

[green shadow]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

i practically stumble over lead, there is so much of it

and lead does not have many uses anyway

[upper ermine]

Are javelins just superior to spears in every way when it comes to ranged combat? They seem like they’d be way better

[fallow surge]

javelins are mainly ranged weapon while spears are mainly melee

[prisma basin]

Man,imagine if we had an atlatl for really putting some grunt behind them.

[next saffron]

hey. just trying it out for the first time. surprised that my leather armor went from no penalty to seemingly in the middleish bracket of penalties? either way, more importantly, I have no idea how armor layering helps my defense. I assume it does, though

is it just additive?

[fallow surge]

Protection tier of a body part is sum of protection tiers of all layers that cover it

[next saffron]

ah so it is just additive. fair enough

also did you make leather armor bad because it's not historic or am I suffering because I'm not bundled up? fair if it's the first

[green shadow]

leather armor will be a little bit better in the future, but its no longer a "light armor"

early game plate armor alternative if you have overabundance of leather

not great, not terrible

[next saffron]

i was planning on just rocking my forlorn hope

[green shadow]

forlon hope is significantly better then leather armor

leather armor is early game alternative to copper plate

@fallow surge since you determined to make leather a plate side/downgrade for earlygame - maybe at least decrease its penalties for movement speed/hunger?

argument could be made that it is not as heavy and should not burden you as much

[uneven trench]

rebalance update is live

[green shadow]

while still kinda restrictive on limb movement

[fallow surge]

It is heavier then metal counterparts

[green shadow]

irl leather is heavier then plate?

[next saffron]

doesn't plate have jerkin and related in it?

[green shadow]

jerkin is a different thing

[fallow surge]

Yes, leather armor with simillar protection as metal plate is heavier

[next saffron]

sure less than a full set of leather armor, but. there's metal

[uneven trench]

I think that's because leather armor includes things that is also heavy

[fallow surge]

Leather is a weaker material so you need more of it to get similar protection

Leather armor is an alternative to copper brigandine

[uneven trench]

oh you haven't updated crossbows yet to fix the crossbow-repeating-plain recipe error

[fallow surge]

Why everyone is so obsessed with leather armor?

[fallow surge]

Should be already fixed, redownload it

[uneven trench]

VS Mod Updater wasn't picking up on it...

[green shadow]

its most me, and im loud and annoying sorry

[gentle bane]

I'm not so sure of recent stat changes on armor.
Making armor is already a hefty investment of time and resources, while weapons are very cheap and quick to make, for me it feel like going without any armor is more viable option (compared to going partially armored as melee fighter) as player movement in vintage story doesn't have acceleration making dodging viable strategy.
Giving it more penalties runs into the same issues as plate armor in vanilla, at best it's minor anoyance that you can't wear it 24/7 and have to take it off when traveling, at worse in combat the one with quick inventory menagment/client side mods for inventory menagment is going to have greater advantage.

I feel like armor shouldn't impact players top speed but rather should impare ability to evade attacks, changing players movement and adding acceleration that's impacted by how much "mass" and encumberance on legs/torso player is wearing could fix that. This would allow players to travel at max speed on already established terrain.
Another thing is healing in middle of combat, simply decreasing how much % player is getting from healing items makes player just use more healing items and/or take off armor mid combat, combine that with current movement penalties and you have yourself get out of jail free card. It would be better if "healing effectivness" would impact how fast player can consume healing items (if that's something that can be done in game), manipulation speed could also have an effect on it.

this is all just imo and from my own experience
I don't know if this is out of scope of combat overhaul or if it's possible to be done, I'm no modder.
basing things of "how it is irl" won't do any good imo, looking at how cdda's armor balance could be a good idea

[thin wing]

probably people being thrown for a loop because when most people think of leather armor they don't think of layering literal kilograms of it to be equal to metal armor, since that was never done historically to my knowledge

[gentle bane]

discord's character limit got me to send it

[uneven trench]

cdda went a bit too hard on the realism tho

[uneven trench]

i personally blame Fallout

[fallow surge]

Lamellar leather armor was not rare, and leather cuirasses was also a thing, if I rememeber correctly

[thin wing]

yes but it wasn't layered so heavily to be heavier than metal versions of similar armor

[green shadow]

i still dont understand why would anyone waste so much and effrot and time for an early game downgrade to copper plate when you could just mine some more copper

but sure

[fallow surge]

Why it is downgrade?

[uneven trench]

I think the version VS is showing actually has leather armor be the layered type

[next saffron]

the VS leather also just. doesn't look like heavy armor

[uneven trench]

not Mad Max-style thin strips

[green shadow]

less slash and pierce, you have gambesson for blunt defense

[next saffron]

I think the legs literally cover your shins and that's it

[fallow surge]

Ok, after I increased blunt protection on all armor it is no indeed a downgrade

Will upgrade its blunt protection to 3...

[thin wing]

everything i can find about cuir bouilli is that it was generally lighter but weaker than metal cuirasses

the density of leather is about 0.8 g/cm^3 while iron is close to 8 g/cm^3, if you wanted leather armor that weighed as much as a somewhat equivalent metal form of armor like a cuirass it'd need to be 10x as thick
metal armor thickness varied but we're talking leather armor that would need to be like, 10 to 30 milimeters thick which is pretty silly thickness if you wanted to reach the weight of metal armor

[green shadow]

why chain shirt has manipulation speed penalty now?

and scale shirt

[fallow surge]

Ok lets move it to medium category of penalties

[green shadow]

why?

it does not cover arms

why it has penatly for using arms?

[thin wing]

shoulders probably
i'd also argue most actions that use the arms would also require using your body/core

in real life you'd absolutely never swing an axe, pickaxe, sword, etc. with just your arms like a minecraft character

I'd also say for balance purposes torso needs some negative that isn't just a minor walkspeed penalty (and the hunger/healing penalty inherent to all armor)

makes sense to me

[fallow surge]

I would expect like 5mm thickness from leather lamellar

[thin wing]

to my knowledge metal lamellar would be made with about 1mm thick lamellae, so 5mm thick leather lamellae would still only weigh about half as much

[green shadow]

11% manipulation speed penalty to cover chest 😭

[fallow surge]

at most 9 not 11

[thin wing]

9% if you're wearing gambeson, plate, and chain seems more than reasonable

like that is a lot of metal

[green shadow]

5% cuirass, 3% gambesson, 3% chain shirt

11%

[thin wing]

oh if you include the fact you can't take off the gambeson's sleeves i guess

[green shadow]

light helmet and riveted helmet has identical penalties now, why riveted is worse

[thin wing]

riveted is cheaper

[green shadow]

who cares

[thin wing]

the same people who make brigandine?

it's valid to have weaker budget options

[green shadow]

if im gonna make a head protection - i will always take light helmet over riveted

[fallow surge]

riveted helmet is specifically added as cheaper option that does not require smithing, it always should have same penalties as plate helmet

[green shadow]

its not worth saving couple of ingots to get a downgrade

just why

[thin wing]

then make light

you can make that value judgement

someone else might have a different opinion

[green shadow]

riveted is purposeless now

[fallow surge]

If it isn't just dont make, haveing an option wont hurt you

[green shadow]

its a straight downgrade

[thin wing]

half the metal cost and only needs nails n strips instead of a really big forging recipe

[green shadow]

i dont care, its not significant

[thin wing]

then don't make it

just because it doesn't seem worth it to you doesn't mean it's useless to everybody

[fallow surge]

Please stop complaining, you are not the one and only user of this mod

[thin wing]

you can make that same argument about brigandine armor in the base game being strictly worse than chainmail (but cheaper)

[green shadow]

i never liked brigandie either, but its seemed significantly cheaper to plate at least

riveted helmet is just stupid

[thin wing]

no it isn't

just because you don't see the point doesn't make it "stupid"

and calling something stupid isn't helpful feedback or criticism, it's just being hostile

[green shadow]

whatever

[fallow surge]

Acceleration is a bad idea, it always feels bad. Personally I would prefer to travel slower rather then have any acceleration.

[gentle bane]

I mean like very minor effect, bc rn combat is very jittery left-right wigging bc you can sprint in all directions and there is no acceleration

[uneven trench]

new update nerfed ranged on full armor so hard lmao

[thin wing]

it's funny you say to base it off how it is IRL wouldn't work and so CO should look at how CDDA does it, since CDDA tries to just be realistic anyway lol

[fallow surge]

Steady aim is now at 50%, so it is still fully negated by corresponding trait, same with manipulation speeds

[thin wing]

how circle-strafey vanilla combat is is one of my complaints with the vanilla gameplay

[uneven trench]

would decreasing aim difficulty to 0.5 make aiming easier or...?

[thin wing]

though unsure if there's a good way to fix that without either giving enemies really goofy tracking on melee attacks or redoing the movement system so you can't sprint sideways at max speed from a standstill

[gentle bane]

some minor acceleration would do the trick (I think)

[fallow surge]

If you really want to have high steady aim with heavy armor you should try exoskeletons or hunter class

[fallow surge]

But yes

Btw I need to update exoskeletons, forgot about them

[gentle bane]

basing things of irl materials is imo murky water bc of missinformation and other things, like maces are the anti armor weapon and clubs are what ppl think of as being used before sharpened stick

[thin wing]

huh

[gentle bane]

https://tenor.com/view/never-assume-in-life-rabbit-sink-gif-17236166764467917568

also pls make plate armor great again

[fallow surge]

What? Was it not great already?

[gentle bane]

didn't iron plate go from 10/10/4 to 6/6/5?

or smth

with more negatives?

[fallow surge]

There is no sense in comparing protection values before and after rebalancing, cause the damage reduction formula has changed

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?usp=sharing

[gentle bane]

ah ok

[fallow surge]

Just open Damage by Enemy sheet and look who and how much damage does to player

[gentle bane]

I just went in with full iron chain, plate and gamboisen and got mauled by some creatures

[uneven trench]

it's weird, people complained armor makes you have no damage and now the entire damage formula was replaced

and we have people here complaining about realism

[mellow light]

As much emphasis as VS puts on realism and immersion, it is still ultimately a video game, and it's not going to be exact

Which is why I agree, ppl complaining about realism now is kinda weird

[fallow surge]

Does not say anything. Some creatures can do some damage, so it is ok I suppose

Be more specific

[green shadow]

sawblade got nerfed?

[gentle bane]

Armor just feels less powerfull compared to how it was, idk if it's one of these rebalance allergies, there is nothing specific that I could point of besides what I already mentioned in that wall of text, I might be just too sensitive to nerfs

[uneven trench]

maybe I am a bit sad that the leather armor + gambeson set no longer denies hits, but then I get to use my tin bronze chain instead of making plate armor XD

[thin wing]

the crazy variance in enemy damage compared to the player's health is largely to blame for that IMO, which is mostly a vanilla enemy balance 'issue' moreso than an armor one
this is a game where you have enemies that can do anywhere from 1 damage to 24 in a game where you have 15 health by default

to make armor that can be actually useful against enemies who do your entire healthbar and another half in a single hit it'd almost certainly make the many weaker enemies do basically nothing without some really bizarre scaling on how armor affects damage

[fallow surge]

enemies damages and damage tiers were rebalanced, now there are bowtorns and locust with high damage tier but low damage, shivers with high damage but low damage tier, drifters in between

[thin wing]

well i guess totally redoing enemy damage would help fix it

[green shadow]

sawblade damage got nerfed in half

[thin wing]

seems so, but as malteiz said they do have a high tier at least so they pierce armor pretty well

that 8 damage is consistent up to and including 7 slash armor

i'm more scared of shivers with their super high damage if you're not yet armored

[fallow surge]

You should be scared, it is the whole point of shivers, I guess

Not sure if deepsplit and bellhead even can spawn in the world

[thin wing]

i had a deepslit during a temporal storm once and bellheads (and gearfoot bowtorn) can just spawn in caves

[charred river]

I’ve definitely seen gearfoot

[thin wing]

with those numbers i'm mostly worried about those higher tier shivers just being "run up and oneshot the player" machines if one does happen to spawn

[charred river]

Being oneshot or even two shot in armour is not fun

I honestly just really prefer the way it is now

[fallow surge]

Full steel armor will protect you so no one can deal you more then 1 damage

[thin wing]

i'm more worried about the early and midgame

[fallow surge]

Avoid enemies you are not equiped to deal with

[thin wing]

get a bellhead spawn in your iron mine and just get merked with little counterplay because shivers are just Really Fast

also temporal storms

[charred river]

Just wait for them to despawn

[thin wing]

but most of that is me still confounded that even "light" temporal storms can spawn lategame enemies so you're basically forced to just hide now lest you get blasted by bowtorns or shivers without armor

it was silly even back with just drifters but drifters are too easy to cheese with kiting so you could just go throw spears at them even in the stone age

[charred river]

There’s basically zero reason to go out in temporal storms unless you want to farm enemies

And that’s kind of the intention

You’re meant to hide

[thin wing]

i'm trying to think of it from a game design intention, because I doubt "Hide in a coffin for 10 minutes and browse reddit on your phone" is the intended gameplay experience

i mean

maybe it is i can't read the devs' minds

but that's kinda silly if it is

[charred river]

Times like this I wish I could just ping a dev to ask lol

[fallow surge]

You can

[charred river]

Who would even know that’s online?

[uneven trench]

Dana, maybe?

or pizza2004

[green shadow]

i always set storms to 50% length at least

[uneven trench]

for me I installed Temporal Tempest + Monster Nugget Drops so it becomes a farmfest

[charred river]

I dunno, @queen moth do you know what the intended gameplay for storms is?

[fallow surge]

I would just ping Tyron, the dev of the devs...

[uneven trench]

...i was expecting you to ping her outside of CO thread lmao

[charred river]

Well they can read the context here

[charred river]

Tyron isn’t around atm I believe

[queen moth]

I have never once in my time playing or in the team meetings gotten the impression that the intention is for the player to hide.

In fact everything has been done to make hiding impossible, completely with every attempt to make things spawn anyway.

I believe the intention is for it to still be fair and not impossible to achieve things, but generally also for the storms to present a challenge.

And a way to collect resources.

That said, finding way to run or hide is still a reasonable strategy in the early game for sure.

But it would be rather dreadful game design if the point was “just stop looking at the screen for 5 minutes while you crouch in a tiny hole”.

Storms haven’t been a huge topic of discussion but it’s a risk reward type of thing in general.

[queen moth]

Does the community have a clear idea of what makes a storm light or heavy anyway?

I’m sure I could look it up in the code or whatever but I haven’t had a specific need to before.

[thin wing]

i mean the game will outright say "a light/medium/heavy temporal storm is approaching"

[uneven trench]

the difference only seems to appear on how foggy the game becomes thanks to dynamic color grading

[queen moth]

I knew that I meant what difference to the events does it make, haha.

Alright based on a quick peak at the code there are various things.

Possibly harder enemies spawn more on heavier storms, I didn’t lose super closely.

It has the ability to differentiate based on strength.

The likelihood of an enemy lighting on fire when hit with a lit torch increases the heavier a storm is. (There’s about a 10% chance when there’s no storm.)

The visuals are stronger.

And there’s some code allowing enemies to have special behaviors depending on the storm strength, I think.

[green shadow]

didnt even know you can light drifters on fire

[uneven trench]

btw, gambeson, tin bronze chain, and leather armor combat progress on a heavy temporal storm via temporal tempest

[queen moth]

The torch just has a chance to light any entity you punch while holding it in your hand on fire.

From what I can tell.

I don’t think it’s mentioned anywhere, though.

[uneven trench]

that feature is a hidden gem and helped me save my stuff when a sawblade locust decided to use my copper mine as its base and another deep drifter decided to want to take a piece of me

[fallow surge]

What deals this 9 damage?

[queen moth]

It’s a neat idea conceptually, yeah. I was amused and delighted the first time I spotted it in the code.

Most people, “Man the first time this happened to me in the game it was awesome!”
Me: “Oh man I was just reading the code the other night when suddenly…!”

[uneven trench]

it's either nightmare bowtorns or surface bowtorns

[fallow surge]

Melee?

[uneven trench]

ranged

pulled out my stirrup crossbow against them

tin bronze stirrup crossbow + crude bolts + headshot = 1-hit bowtorns

also the slashing damages were surface drifters I somehow miss

[fallow surge]

This is strange...

I cant reproduce it, it test in creative and bowtorns deal the damage listed in patches and spreadsheet

Have you updated CO to latest version?

[uneven trench]

yeah, I did, or else I wouldn't have been able to wear tin bronze chain armor and leather together

what were their expected damages anyway

[fallow surge]

attack tier and damage

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?gid=266754028#gid=266754028

Can you please reproduce it in creative?

[uneven trench]

oh wait

I was using 0.2.0 not 0.2.1

[fallow surge]

0.2.0 still should have these values

[fallow surge]

9 damage with 0 tier is vanilla nighmare values

[uneven trench]

I was just showing off ;-;

[fallow surge]

if it is a bug I need to fix it

[uneven trench]

actually no need

https://mods.vintagestory.at/bowtornbalance I had this mod

[fallow surge]

Ok, it might be the reason

You scared me with these logs

[uneven trench]

XD

amusingly pre-rebalance, those nightmare bowtorns frequently kill me with just gambeson and leather armor

[upper ermine]

Is there a lazy way to auto update or at least check which mods updates automatically?

[uneven trench]

there's VS Launcher, ModUpdater

or just subscribing it on the site

[fervent swift]

Or you do what I do and use both VS Launcher and ModUpdate as well as refresh the ModDB every hour or so to see what new developments arise 😛

[hallow bolt]

I personally like the rock paper scissors style of balance.

Piercing being good vs animals and Blunt being good vs rust enemies + classes having proficiency for certain weapons (but notably never piercing + Blunt) keep the armor types interesting without being overly complex. You can be confident in your weapon pick vs the enemies you'll likely fight and be punished if you don't have the info

My previous comment about shooting my friend was more for "haha I like shooting people c:"

For pve content it should be fine, though for pvp, the only viable guns would be the steel guns solely because gambe armor thick

Bruh discord deleted my reply

[hallow bolt]

Context for my above message

[green shadow]

malefactor can deal all three types of damage

good guns are good against animals, good crossbows are good against drifters

[hallow bolt]

I mean I guess but I wouldn't really call it effective damage

Clockworker probably has the best weapon proficiencies

As crossbow for animals and quarterstaff+gun vs rust is a hard to beat combo

Except bears exist