Combat Overhaul

[graceful bridge]

But but, they can make clothes

Thats super strong

They have to be nerfed

[green shadow]

i was told you can buy Nadyan clothes, they have identical warmth bonus to tailor elite recipes

[thin wing]

It's an accuracy penalty not a damage penalty though, no?

[green shadow]

some of them

[green shadow]

still doesnt feel deserved

[graceful bridge]

Having some nice crafting recipes mean you need to be nerfed to hell, its called game design sweaty

But having damage, health, armor, and mining bonuses are fine if you get a bit more hungry

🙂

[thin wing]

TBF tailor sucking is a base game thing

And blackguard's ranged penalties are very harsh

Blackguard being kinda really strong is also a vanilla thing

[graceful bridge]

Oh yeah, its vanilla, Maltiez is not to blame here

[green shadow]

plate armor with gambesson underneath is not enough against sawblade

[charred river]

Metal?

Sawblades are terrifying tho

[green shadow]

tin bronze

[charred river]

Oh yeah, why are you using tin bronze plate??

That won’t help you lol

[green shadow]

should have made chain armor mid player

[green shadow]

it helped me get to iron

[charred river]

Lamellar is just as good

[green shadow]

what

lamellar is 5/5/5 and takes all layers

tin bronze curiass is 8/8/3 and i habe gambesson underlayer with 1/1/6

[thin wing]

Bronze plate is certainly a decent holdover but yeah it's not enough for sawblades lol

Sawblades especially blow through basically everything that isn't plate+chain cuz they do something crazy like 16-20 slash or something

[green shadow]

yeah

i will make iron chain shirt

24 slashing damage

[thin wing]

The chain shirt and chain coif are really good just for quite a bit extra defense with very minimal downside

[green shadow]

imagine getting by a sawblade on a neck

for 48 damage

i have tier 7 slashing resistance on a neck, it will not save me

if i find zinc - i can make an arquebus

two arquebus shots will kill sawblade

[thin wing]

Can one blunderbus shot?

[green shadow]

blunderbuss does 32 damage if all pellets connect

sawblade has 40hp

[thin wing]

rip

Blunderbus + two quarterstaff bonks

[warm plank]

doesnt the crossbow quiver already hold all the additional equipment needed?

[thin wing]

yes

i assume they might be asking about being able to store the crossbow itself in it, but i'd question why you'd do that since it's not usable from the inventory lol

[prisma basin]

Yeah. You can treat your hotbar itself like the holster/hook/sling/baldrick/scabbard(s) for your armaments.

[graceful bridge]

This isn't a holster, its a hook to make reloading faster.

The bowline is placed into belt hooks, the foot is put into the stirrup and pushed down to cock the line.

[thin wing]

i feel like i'd pull my pants down doing that

[graceful bridge]

That's why it was more akin to a modern lifting belt.

You don't loop your pants into it, and it was made to spread that force out.

[uneven trench]

how to I make my sword combat overhaul compatible

[fervent swift]

@fallow surge Armory Bug: Flint spears with handles of different wood types are in the handbook but with no recipes to make them.

[green shadow]

Clockmaker has 25% damage bonus against mechanical creatures, does it transfer to guns as well?

something that randomly struck me - blunderbuss does 32 damage if all pellets connect, if clockmaker mechanical damage bonus applies - you can one shot sawblade locust

you can also oneshot sawblade withe steel carbine

and killing sawblade will take 2 pistol shots instead of 3

sawblade has 40 health, 32x1.25=40 and 16x1.25=20

[uneven trench]

is there like a guide to see how to make my weapons count for combat overhaul

[fervent swift]

I would suggest looking at one of the other mods that has weapons and is compatible. You have a few to choose from

AnMiTech, ElectricityAddon, Better Scrap, Kanahaku`s (Not Only) Spear Expansion

[green shadow]

Electricity Addon adds electro spear, very steampunky

reminds of Arcanum's Telsa Staff

[green shadow]

out of all the crossbows, Stirrup seems to be the least useful

*good crossbows

it faster to reload then steel tier crossbows but the reload freezes you in place, and it does not help reach any brakepoints

latch is incredibly fast and you can reload on the move

windlass just kills everything you point it at

goats foot kills tier 2 drifters in one shot, almost kills tier 3 (you can finish them off with a quick shot from latch)

goats foot reloads on a move too

[green shadow]

i think you guys are sleeping on crossbows

windlass kills most of the targets musket kills

while being easier to operate and faster to reload

i especially like goats foot

steel tier crossbows are arpropriately powerful

feel better to use then steel tier guns

i should have started as hunter instead of clockmaker

[keen veldt]

steel gun is more suited for pvp tbh

crossbow more PVE albeit both can be used in both situations

just raw damage of musket better in pvp

[green shadow]

sure, 1% of players that play pvp must love musket damage

[keen veldt]

I do

[green shadow]

i was testing guns and crossbows in creative, since in my artic world i dont have anything yet

did not liked guns at all, after using crossbows

[keen veldt]

what’s the steel cost of a windlass ?

[green shadow]

pistol akimbo is funny though

[green shadow]

not sure, not very high

[keen veldt]

and windows is pretty cool for PVE as no gunpowder etc

[uneven trench]

I'm trying to make my wavy swords get combat overhaul support and I don't know what I'm missing lol

[keen veldt]

It’s like 8 or 10 I think but idfk the exact hence why asking lmao as makes sense it’s more economical to make then carbine for example

[green shadow]

gun reload time is obscene, even on pistol

[keen veldt]

clockmaker gets a 50% buff I think on reload times

[green shadow]

im testing it on clockmaker

[keen veldt]

ye if you have armour it slows it down I think

otherwise it’s not the worst

considering damage and the fact it’s “ready”

[green shadow]

armor does not thing for reload speed

[keen veldt]

crossbow you gotta reload whenever you equip it

manipulation speed I thought is reload based ?

[green shadow]

not exactly

[keen veldt]

or it’s just mining etc then ?

[green shadow]

you have to finish very short animation of putting a bolt on the crossbow, but otherwise weapon comes preloaded

im not using it with armor that nerfs manipulation speed

[keen veldt]

manipulation speed effects reload or no?

I’d imagine it would too have some kind of debug

debuff*

[green shadow]

i dont know, either way i have no debuff for manipulation speed

[keen veldt]

yea it’s still slow ish

but it’s the damage output trade off

plus players blunt protection can’t get too high compared to piercing etc

so it’s better against players I think

but crossbows are super cool

glad they got the love from maltiez and he made the mod

[green shadow]

there are short window of time where guns will be better then crossbows, at bronze tier

but once you get iron - you are almost ready for steel anyway

so iron/steel guns are kinda pointless

[keen veldt]

they all got their use cases tbh. Musket will always do more damage than a windlass. although it’s a bit more expensive and maintenance is higher

the way maltiez balances stuff is pretty cool

everything has a use case in this mod

maybe minus the slashing axes Lmao

[green shadow]

windlass cant one shot brown/black bears and two headed drifters

otherwise it kills everything musket kills

[keen veldt]

ye and with players musket will prob be better

Idk about carbine

I think windlass & carbine may be on the same level in that perhaps

[green shadow]

roughly the same damage but windlass is easier to maintain and feels faster to reload

[keen veldt]

ye, plus the armour differences of pierce & blunt

seem roughly the same

unless some guy has some weird armour set to counter one of those more than the other

or the mob has a protection tier that’s one or the other

[green shadow]

i dont think its a valid argument since majority of players dont engage with pvp in any way

but sure

[keen veldt]

Idk, I play on servers where it happens so I think it’s a fair argument

we can agree it’s not valid in a non PVP setting but is in a PVP setting

either way W mod from maltiez 🙏

[tawdry condor]

yeah I know. That's why I said "as an upgrade" and not "as an item".
But it doesn't matter anyway as the mod is feature complete

[graceful bridge]

Absolutely, I was saying that as a context for the people that commented that it was just for holding the crossbow, in order to clarify what it was you were actually wanting.

[tawdry condor]

ah, aight then

anyway I'm more eager to know if modifying player weight is possible (arrows should not bounce you around if you're wearing 3 layers of armor) but Maltiez ignored it 😦

[graceful bridge]

Maltiez does have a handful to worry about.
I think it'd be a neat entry point to modding, seeing if you can adjust knockback values with respect to armor.

[tawdry condor]

if it's even possible at the first place tho

[graceful bridge]

I have no doubt it's possible. I only doubt if it's easy.

[tawdry condor]

yeah, me too. And I'm far from programming so...

the best I can do is pestering competent people lol

[toxic bough]

Is crossbows are addon for this mod? i cant found any crossbow in item list in game

[keen veldt]

Search on mod database “crossbows” author is “Maltiez”

It is made by the same owner as this mod and can be used with it

there is also firearms mod he made etc

Click on author of combat overhaul he has a couple that are compatible

[royal lava]

I assure you, you don't need to be a programmer to start modding 😄
It's actually relatively easy, you just need to spend some time on the wiki and understand how the JSON stuff works and it only took me a couple hours. It might take someone with less experience a couple more hours but it's really not bad.
I highly recommend trying it out 😁

[tawdry condor]

my job's draining as is lol

[spring comet]

trying my hand at reanimating the greatsword (only two directions so far)

[robust pond]

damn that looks great, though maybe a bit over animated for a zwei? might just be a speed thing

[spring comet]

the wide arcs are deliberate since i'm trying to replicate the swings from HEMA (using this as reference: https://youtu.be/nqlp_vuF3lY?si=kGFYkDlMZOQHsqzD&t=78)

[zenith mesa]

Fantastic.

[graceful bridge]

These look great. Snappy with force, but still retains the threatening sweep.

[uneven trench]

I'm still unable to get my wavy sword some combat overhaul support lol

[peak lotus]

Loving this mod with armory but I was curious if the different attack directions affected what type of damage you deal? Like greatsword stabbing does it do piercing while the regular sweep does slash?

[thin wing]

swords will always do slashing even if the attack is visually a stab

there are weapons that list multiple damage types though

the halberd does slashing and thrusting, naturally the 3 attacks there that are visually a slash do slashing while the thrust does piercing

and the poleaxe can do all three; i believe the 2 side attacks are slashing, the downward bonk with the hammer is bashing and the thrust is piercing

[foggy carbon]

Will the weapons that don't have parry eventually get it?

[thin wing]

i assume it's an intentional omission for balance purposes

[foggy carbon]

ig i dont get it if thats the case, why would a poleaxe be able to parry and block (arguably the best 2Her), while long axe and halberd can't?

[zenith mesa]

Its likely intentional but frankly some of the choices make the weapons worse overall

Halberds range function, for example, as well as a lack of block makes it very unsatisfying to use. I find it slow, without a lot of damage and its needlessly complicated due to the narrow range in which it can be used. Then you have to adjust it. I also think range (at least on default fov settings) is a bit inaccurate with most weapons being shorter than they appear visually. The poleaxe I made yesterday was a good example of that where I found it to be pathetically short in almost all attacks except maybe stab.

Why use halberd when you can use greatsword? Greatsword might be a bit shorter but you can parry and block, theres no range bullshit to fuck around with, you just get to swing it and it does damage.

[midnight depot]

anyone else crash when putting a saddle ona n elk?

[thin wing]

i've heard of someone else having that problem but it ended up being a different mod, not CO

[foggy carbon]

been testing quite a bit with poleaxe and i thought it seemed short also, it's just long enough to hit while being outside a 2H drifters range

[thin wing]

apparently the issue is Fauna of the Stone Age's giant deer mod, but the crash log says it's CO for some reason

[midnight depot]

ah

thank you

[fallow surge]

I will rename this harmony patch so ppl stop blaming CO for other mods bugs...

[midnight depot]

yeah that's my fault someone just told me it said so in the crash log, makes sense that it was the giant deer one tho

[foggy carbon]

@fallow surge do you want feedback on weapon balance? or not looking for feedback outside of actual bugs etc. Testing out different setups

[fallow surge]

Just leave it here, I will eventually read it

[foggy carbon]

aight, i'll try to make it coherent when i do then 😄

[zenith mesa]

Some proposed changes, from my perspective (these are merely my opinion and can be disagreed with)

• Weapon Range should be increased across the board. I don't think every weapon needs it as much as others but, at least with regarding viewmodels, they all feel a bit too short. I have repeatedly thought that Longswords are very short for how they appear visually.

• Longswords should be improved one-handed, as currently the one-handed usage of them feels rather poor with much slower speeds, lower damage and worse swings. They're supposed to be ideally two-handed by usable one-handed and while they do fill that role, it's generally not super appealing how it is right now to the point where I opt to completely disregard them as an option for one-handed.

• Weapons with hit ranges should be adjusted in general, such as Halberds and Pikes. I think they should not only have a minor/moderately larger window, making them less of a pain to use, but could also be improved by allowing them to do reduced damage when hitting outside of that sweet spot. For example, instead of doing full damage if I swing my halberd and theyre too close, they should take say, 25% of the normal damage, so at least there is some hit feedback. Perhaps more knockback would help with these weapons?

• I think weapon blocks such as with the greatsword, should be nerfed. I don't find myself landing many parries and instead optiong to hold block entirely and negating the entire thing.

• I think shields should be improved as well. In vanilla, you can straight up block and attack at the same time and it's particularly powerful. In CO, you can't do this but shields drain just as much hunger and require you to use a one-handed weapon which is generally worse than two-handed weapons due to worse range and damage, requiring you to almost be sniffing the enemy to hit with some of them, like maces. Maces do good damage but it's often not worth the hassle.

• Armor hunger values should be adjusted to emphasize more useful armor types. A lot of armor is worse than plate armor, not just for protection. Light/medium armors really don't serve much purpose. Some changes could include: Less hunger, less manipulation and less walk speed debuffs for the lighter armors such as, Leather Jerkins, Gambesons, Leather Body Armor, Scale armor, Lamellar armor and Brigandine armor, with a varying scale to how much reduced they are.
  In my opinion, the lighter the armor, the more varied the debuffs should be. As it stands, plate armor is always the best option because its debuffs are almost identical to the light armors but with significantly more protection. Besides crafting cost, what reason would I pick brigandine, scale or lamellar over plate armor?

I'm open to discussion on this stuff, and these are simply my opinions, but I would like to think I at least know what I'm talking about. I think.

[lime jolt]

how does knockback work? sometimes attacks knocback, sometimes not, spears may or may not do it more reliably, cant find a pattern.. any help? :o

[fallow surge]

I haven't changed how it works, so it is bugged and unbalanced like in vanilla

[lime jolt]

its fine, i just wanted to know what are mechanics on it at all, or if i should just look at it like rng event :D

[uneven trench]

@fallow surge do you have a template or some tips on how to make Combat Overhaul-compatible third-party weapons? I tried to do it but it didn't work out

[sinful panther]

weapon range increase? brother in christ you do not need to be immortal against all but bowtorns as soon as you craft the first flint spear

[green shadow]

i was told scale helmet does not exist anymore

yet there is a recipe for it

[thin wing]

it was recently re-added

[green shadow]

neat!

i really like how meteoric iron armor looks, i think im gonna make it for the drip

even though im like a month or two away from making steel

[keen whale]

is there a way to disable to spear throwing, it kinda feels weird to 1h spear with a shield to use a shield and just a click accidently yeets the spear

[warm plank]

some weapons say they deal slash and thrusting

[robust pond]

Was going through the armors that seemed to have hair clip through armor. It seems only a few cause this problem, like "short/trimmed," "Indigi-balding," "Kniaz," "Tonsure," and maybe a couple more? Just thought i'd let you know about this @fallow surge if you want to fix it in the next patch since it bugs the crap out of me and probably some other people too. also, some of the thicker necklaces like "simple cross" tend to z-fight with plate armor.

[zenith mesa]

I didnt mean the spears

The spears and pikes feel fine, the halberd feels fine, but I moreso meant the other weapons.

There are moments where the greatsword feels a touch short, the longsword feels pretty short, the one-handed weapons feel especially shot... And when I say short, I mean "shorter than I would think they are".

Obviously a mace has less range than a longsword, but I dont think I'd have to kiss a drifter to hit them with it.

[green shadow]

tin bronze cuirass + meteoric iron chain shirt + gambesson

tier 17 slashing resistance, still take some damage

[keen veldt]

sawblade just be that way

[graceful bridge]

you took about 7% damage from that strike. At slash resist 17 against slash 6 (24) that's working as intended.

Yeah. Sawblades do 24 damage at T6. That kills most unarmored seraphs in 1 swing. You'll take many more than that.

[green shadow]

i can make myself and arqeubus, finally found some zinc in a chest

enough for single plate

but whats the point? Stuff it can kill i can melee with a staff as well

[keen veldt]

ranged I suppose & more damage on it

[green shadow]

i can use it as a hunting weapon instead of simple crossbow, but im already very much stocked on meat

[graceful bridge]

It'll let you shoot bowtorn back, and you'll have a better time with those sawblade locusts.

[green shadow]

this is my favorite armor setup

was testing it in creative, sawblade has trouble killing me, same for polar bear

12% accuracy penalty, 7% manipulation speed penalty, 16% movement speed penalty

couldnt get myself to be hit in a face or neck, very rare

[graceful bridge]

It looks slick as hell too.

[deep turret]

Can't seem to get armory working on my server, does it have to be activated in any way?

We can craft the crossbows and firearms but none of the armory weapons/armour

[graceful bridge]

Can you craft a riveted helm?

[deep turret]

I'll start the server and check

[deep turret]

nah none of the armory recipes show up in the handbook, they do in my singelplayer however. It's a dedicated Gportal server if that helps

[deep turret]

Bruh.... just double checked the servers file directory and armory wasn't even in there....
sorry for my stupidity 😂

[graceful bridge]

Interesting. Can you try redown... nevermind lol

It happens to everyone, glad it was an easy fix

[deep turret]

got it uploaded and it's working fine all the recipes in the handbook, so keen to actually try out some of the new weapons now.

[graceful bridge]

I like Javelins with the Javelin belt. Greatswords are excellent too.

[hollow pasture]

It's because it uses the exact same animation in 3rd person as it does in first. Maltiez hasn't made a different animation for third person because it's incredibly time consuming

[zenith mesa]

I think greatsword might be the best weapon type in the mod, but I do get the 30% speed increase. Its range and damage are all great. It can block and parry.

[green shadow]

i really want to fix a forlorn hope set

it has full body coverage but very mild penalties for a plate

half the accuracy penalty

[green shadow]

is it possible to tweak some values myself to reduce reload speed?

[fallow surge]

Add proficiency stat to class you are playing with. Or edit animations.

[green shadow]

i already have proficiency, i wanted to reduce it a bit further down but it seems not doable for a noob like me

thank you for the answer

[fallow surge]

You can increase bonus from proficiency

[green shadow]

how can i do that?

[green shadow]

thank you

yay, it works, bumped it to 75%

[austere phoenix]

Sorry for late reply, but no. No changes to mobs, I throw the javelin, spear, and shoot an arrow only for them to land near rabbits and foxes and they don't react

[hollow pasture]

I've personally never had that even in vanilla

[verbal rampart]

Pretty sure it's in the 1.20 changelogs that they made it so mobs don't just sit there when hit

[hollow pasture]

When hit they definitely run away, but they've never responded to misses for me. I'll test it when I get home

[verbal rampart]

It usually happens when they run back, may be due to floating projectiles since they can still hurt you (in my experience with floating rocks thrown from a sling).

[hollow pasture]

Run back?

[verbal rampart]

The mobs reset after a certain amount of blocks they run without being chased

[stoic mauve]

How does one add proficiency to a class correctly? I'd like to add quarterstaff to ranger, if I can.

[thorn furnace]

pardon my intrusion, im just really confuse on the loose of some weapon range?
from the V0.1.27 to the V0.1.29
if that normal ?

[final latch]

Its just a new preview, the right side is the CO Info

[thorn furnace]

nvm it was the mods not loading from each screenshoot (mistake on my part)
but the range is very low, that why i was confuse.

[fallow surge]

Range is short because it is a very short weapon, animation is already extends it as far as possible. In vanilla range makes no sense, in CO it is not a stat but a consequence of weapon model and animation.

[thorn furnace]

got it

tbh i do love the animation of the tool, it make it feel more natural
i do understand the realism wanted for the weapon.
it just not for me, but notice the mods doesn't affect any weapon from Ancient Armory! so i got the best of vanilla and CO tool animation!

anyway, sry for the inconvenience, and have nice day!

[wheat lynx]

Hello. Is it possible to have vanilla idle and running animations for weapons with this mod? They are so smooth.

[upper ermine]

What's the heaviest armor I can wear as a hunter that wants to use the recurve bow (which I hope hasn't been nerfed too badly. I'm new)

[upper ermine]

Actually is there a wiki or something that lists the extra traits that the mod adds for each class?

[green shadow]

riveted helmet, chain coif, gambesson helmet, cuirass, chain shirt, gambesson body armor, scale sleeves, scale leg armor, gambesson leg armor - this armor is very light on ranged penalties

12% aim, 7% manipulation speed

your entire body is covered, and you have fantastic chest protection

you have somewhat weaker face protection and your neck is very vulnerable, especially to piercing damage

you are a hunter and have great accuracy by default, so maybe you can get away with full helmet

[charred river]

I enjoy forlorn hope set for the outer layer

[green shadow]

forlorn hope is goated

i dream of fixing it one day

its ideal

[charred river]

Riding my elk I feel like a true knight

[uneven trench]

I downloaded CO: Armory and found handles

[charred river]

wdym

[uneven trench]

tool handles

[charred river]

you mean weapon handles? like you found them in the handbook, or in a chest?

[uneven trench]

handbook

[charred river]

yeah, they're required for making CO: A weapons

you can't just use sticks

[graceful bridge]

If I remember correctly, the recurve bow was rebalanced. I think it does less damage than the longbow, but fires faster.

[fallow surge]

I put Firearms moddb page into draft mod so it only accessible from direct link, and put a link on CO moddb page, so it will be less ppl that hate CO on firearms page.

I haven't slept for a while, so it is probably just my brain failing to think properly and I bring it back later...

[keen veldt]

never bring it back…. Make them get CO…

[fallow surge]

They already have to get CO, I just dont want them to get to firearms at all, so they dont write about how they dont like CO

[keen veldt]

sounds like the way to go

[uneven trench]

I wonder what they specifically hate about CO

I saw that comment saying to use a standalone library for Firearms... but that's already CO lmao

[keen veldt]

I mean I guess some high tier armour makes a lot of mobs not do a lot of damage but they can tweak these things if that’s truly the issue or if they want the more balanced approach use a lower tier or less armor. And they can’t argue weapons are too OP as they want guns which do so much damage 😂

[fallow surge]

They dont give proper feedback, they just complain without any specifics, so there is like nothing I can do to improve things

[keen veldt]

That’s the usual with mods and even developing anything

your mod is one of the most popular mods for a reason and you do read feedback and do what you think is best so I think that’s super cool as some people wouldn’t do that

you won’t ever be able to appease everyone sadly

I do think the auto patch w other mods is something this mod has that’s a very good direction for mods on this game, as automatic compatibility in huge mod packs is amazing compared to needing to tweaks lots

[zenith mesa]

Ive noticed a lot of enemies cant really hurt me in even iron armor. All I have underneath it is a gambeson layer too.

So maybe I kinda get what they're complaining about, but im not sure how to fix it. Make passive defense worse but improve active defense (parrying and blocking) to encourage more interaction?

[charred river]

I mean when you get to having all layers with iron or steel you become pretty safe

Bosses can still fuck you up though, as well as getting swarmed. Sawblades are still scary too, as well as the highest tier enemies.

But fighting one on one, you’re essentially invincible. Rocks thrown by drifters don’t even do damage if you’re in full tailored gambeson

And I think this is pretty balanced

[fallow surge]

Is it bad? Any ideas how it should be instead?

[graceful bridge]

May I ask what the formula to determine damage reduction is?

[fallow surge]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dEvhLqeOaweRgaYhn68PVj5zsRfKdojDqy7AIheHP94/edit?gid=242720354#gid=242720354

[keen veldt]

you still take 1 damage from basic tier drifters at best armour in the game

instead of the default value that is significantly more

[fallow surge]

Basic drifters deal 2 damage, so your armor will block only 50%, and also 1 damage is a lot

[keen veldt]

idk maybe 0.5 then to be fair

but some kind of still reasonable damage existing

as rn once you get iron

you’re invincible to most things minus the super dangerous mods

mobs*

paired with shields etc and a gun it’s not the hardest to kill enemies especially with how much damage you don’t take

and yea I was wrong that 1 damage is too much I forgot as I play blackguard sometimes.

I’m sure you’ll find a way where armor is useful at all tiers but doesn’t fully make it into protection 4 diamond armour in Minecraft in the final tier lets say.

[graceful bridge]

I don't want to make any hard suggestions without anything to back it up, but I definitely think it would help to know what You, Maltiez, think the balance of the game should feel like.

Do you want all enemies to still pose a threat, even in the toughest armor?
Do you want some armor to be better than no armor, even when it's not enough to be effective?
Do you want armor effectiveness to be more dramatically effected by exceeding high levels, or by the few levels passing the damage tier?

I feel like you're getting to wit's end trying to make a mod that doesn't have people hating on you.

In the end, I want to see your vision, and if I can provide feedback to that end, I'd like to.

[fallow surge]

No idea, most of the CO systems is a product for iteration starting from vanilla, so it is kinda emergent and not designed from ground up.

Right now the main problem with armor system is that damage tiers are redundant, cause mobs that deal higher tier damage also deal higher damage. So idealy I need to rebalance mods and armor, and it will require a lot of spreadsheets and work... And I dont really have time and energy right now, cause of irl problems.

[graceful bridge]

That makes sense. And spreedsheets are a lot to tackle. I am by no means qualified to tell you how to make your mod, but if you were to overhaul combat from the ground up in Vintage Story, what would it look like? Just in general terms?

[fallow surge]

No idea, it is too broad to be able to just come up with a short description. Also I think that such purely theoretical ideas is a waste of time, cause they have no value. It takes a lot of research, iteration and experimentation to come up with something that actually works.

[graceful bridge]

You're right, it takes so much time and energy to make something that works, but thinking about what the final goal looks isn't a waste of time.

For example, if you know you want high tier armor to make you nearly invincible to low tier mobs, but still makes you very vulnerable to high tier mobs, you can tweak your formulas to reflect that. It will take time, effort, and experimenting to make it work, but you'll know when you've reached that goal.

I just want to see you happy with your mod, rather than making it worried that some idiot won't be.
And I really like the Firearms mod, and I don't want to see it go away because of that.

[keen veldt]

I think maltiez is doing a good job

even if I think the high tier armours negating so much damage to basic enemies is not my ideal thing I still love the mod and will use it over vanilla

and considering download amount and the love it’s gotten I’m sure lots of others do too

[lavish gale]

i asked this question in the IDG thread but realised it probs makes sense to ask it here:
Hey sorry because this is probs a really simple question, but in a MP server how do i disable the interaction between CO for the axes? So we dont end up splitting logs in a single hit. Its easy to do for singleplayer but im unsure where exactly you go for a server?

[keen veldt]

I believe they have to change their configs in their vintage story folder for multiplayer config, unsure though but may be worth a try to look there?

I’ve only tested with LAN and whatever the LAN host has saved seems to work for all players so if you’re playing LAN it may be easier to do that

but dedicated may be different and need them to go in their VS folders

[fallow surge]

There is a config option specifically for this case

[lavish gale]

when i did a taste on Lan it was no issue, its only after swapping to dedicated that we noticed :(

where is the config option? I looked in combatoverhaul.yaml but thats for singleplayer it seems.

[keen veldt]

I think it’s the tool animation one in the config lib

[keen veldt]

wait wtf split logs

I thought they meant the animation lmfao

it splits logs?

I’ve been missing out

[lavish gale]

Ah so swapping that to false, that'll make it so we can split logs into slabs, then slabs into firewood like in singleplayer?

[fallow surge]

there is no difference between singleplayer and multiplayer

[lavish gale]

true i explained that badly.

but i'll go check the now to see if its sorted! ty for help!

yes thank you, working perfect now.

[keen veldt]

very cool this is a thing, I genuinely just discovered this😂

thought you meant the axe animation at first

[lavish gale]

aha ye its pretty cool, its a simple flick in singleplayer/lan with the configlib mod. but that isnt usable on a dedicated server so hence me asking. We play with group of 10 and like to divvy up roles so the carpenter was reporting the mod being odd, instantly splitting the logs into firewood and skipping the slab step.

[green shadow]

with good armor there is little incentive to use guns/ranged weapons except for the most dangerous enemies

its kinda makes me sad

also, weapon block makes fighting very easy

[keen veldt]

only use case is bowtorns and PVP I find

although ik most people only do PVE

It is a cool era of weapons though to have considering the theme of the game and all the machines that exist

plus pistols do help if you get caught off guard and need the quick damage towards a wolf or a bear

[green shadow]

pistol will do almost nothing to bear

bears have tier 6 blunt resistance i belive, and more then 60 health

i would love to have wolfs, it would give me an incentive to carry a pistol with me

but they dont spawn where i live

[keen veldt]

two pistols may help slightly

100% helps against wolves though

[green shadow]

not, not really

[keen veldt]

I read this and just had an idea to build a sky base to avoid these kind of interactions w mobs

[keen veldt]

slightly, not a lot lmao

bears 100% killing you off guard unless your musket is loaded

[green shadow]

i can outrun bears if im not wearing armor, or i can pillar up

[keen veldt]

the dirt pillar tactic is the best as always

[green shadow]

pistol shot will do like 8 damage to bear maybe

[keen veldt]

ye only worth if they’re preloaded just to kill it quicker, if you pillar probably just easier to spam swing

you’ll have to get a musket if you want to face him head on lmao

[green shadow]

gun shots should scare animals away

regardless of damage done

that would be very neat actually

[keen veldt]

would be cool concept for like scaring foxes or chickens

[green shadow]

google says bears are not scared by gunshots, unless they have learned to fear guns in the past

unfortunate

[zenith mesa]

I could help, if you'd like it. I enjoy crunching numbers, but I'm not totally sure what the ideal should be.

[uneven trench]

btw, there's weird interactions with the bows and crossbows

basically if the bows aren't pointed to the center, immediately changing to a crossbow will make it not point to the center as well

[green shadow]

i think im gonna stop wearing metal armor, to make high tier enemies actually dangerous

metal armor set + two handed staff block = im pretty much dont take damage from most things

controversial take - i kinda like vanilla armor design more, tbh

vanilla gambesson will reduce damage enough to not let you die but you still have to be cautious

here gambesson makes you immune to low tier blunt damage but you take full damage from everything else

and once you start stacking armors on top of each other to cover for gambesson weaknesses - you kinda become immune to damage

and there is really no middle ground

i kinda get now why people were complaining about firearms mod requiring CO

leather armor is kinda pointless here as well

you get panalties equivalent to scale for little benifit

you cant really go light armor, anything more then tier 1 drifter will kill you

guns are very expensive, niche toys
crossbows are limited to hunting until you get to steel
just armor up and beat things in melee with a blunt weapon

[charred river]

what weapons are good for hunting?

[green shadow]

all javelins, mid-high tier crossbows, high tier guns

spear, and especially pike, has big dead zone where you will deal no damage

they are good if you pit an animal first

stirrup crossbow with bronze bolts will do enough damage one shot wolves

goats foot/arquebus will do enough damage to one shot deer, moose and goats

musket almost kills a bear

windlass + goats foot will kill a bear

i think javelins two shot wolves

oh yeah and pistol one shots wolves as well, one niche it can comfortably claim

[uneven trench]

for such a good bow alternative, the crossbow is limited to hunting :<

[green shadow]

but stirrup is better

[charred river]

Stirrup requires hunter tho right?

[green shadow]

yeah, you need a hunter trait

[charred river]

I only just enabled recipes for all classes since it’s just me, but I’m already at steel.

[green shadow]

in my world, i get it from a book

[uneven trench]

i also enabled all recipes for mine

[green shadow]

windlass kills up to tier 3 drifters

clockmaker with windlass oneshots sawblade

[uneven trench]

did notice the config for crossbows can have trait requirement disabled

[green shadow]

goatsfoot kills tier 2 drifters, lives tier 3 barely alive

[uneven trench]

you know, I guess it is one of a possible gripe for needing CO, the damage resistance

falx no longer a 3-block ranged + the slashing resist lol

[green shadow]

iron-steel sword pierces through most enemy resistance

[charred river]

I wish I had more uses for my feathers tbh

the falx really should be better for a weapon designed to kill rust creatures

[green shadow]

but why would you use it unless you are a blackguard?

for my next world i will be a melefactor i think

long axe or two handed club + javelins

falx and especially spears were nerfed hard

[uneven trench]

I wonder if I can fork crossbow bolts to use the damage arrows have

[green shadow]

but spear kinda deserve it tbh

steel spear can kill drifters at least

[green shadow]

goats foot, you want to use goats foot

it has medium reload time, reloads on a move, does not require gunpowder, kills mid tier drifters in one shots and wounds high tier ones

kills wolves, kills deers, moose and goats

[uneven trench]

crossbow or a firearm

[green shadow]

goats foot is a steel tier crossbow

piercing damage tier 6, bypasses resistance of most drifters

almost kills tier 3 drifter, you can finish it off with a melee or latch crossbow

latch crossbow will be insane if you give it slashing damage

or maybe not, its only tier 3

tier 3 slashing damage is not great either

[uneven trench]

...I'm just in tin bronze with 1 iron ingot to my name

[green shadow]

i think at iron tier you can make a halberd

which is slashing/piercing long reach weapon

or poleaxe

[dull herald]

I believe with a full set of plate, chain and gambeson the penalties to steady aim and manipulation speed for bows and crossbows are more or less completely balanced out

So technically you can wear absolutely maximum armor and go down just to the level of a unarmored commoner

[green shadow]

47% aim penalty not counting reduced draw speed/reload speed from manipulation speed penalty

kinda overkill for protection really

especially for ranged character

[dull herald]

27% manipulation speed penalty I believe?

[green shadow]

forlorn hope set with chain shirt, chain coif and full gambesson is just 17% aim penalty

[dull herald]

But that just negates a hunters 30% boost to bows and crossbows and their 50% boost to steady aim

It probably is completely overkill, but hey its technically possible

[green shadow]

why would you want less accuracy, less movement speed but more protecton on character whos goal is not to get hit in the first place?

[dull herald]

Because everyone around me died fighting the eidolon 😛

[green shadow]

eidolon does tier 7 blunt damage

so, its gambesson with leather armor on top

[dull herald]

Damn no wonder everyone else exploded

[upper ermine]

You can do that?

[green shadow]

i belive that would be tier 10 blunt resistance

[green shadow]

leather armor (not leather jerkin) is middle-outer layer

[dull herald]

We uh, went into this a bit blind and completely underarmored for it except for me who brought in the full plate, chainmail, gambeson set

[green shadow]

i think its either tier 3 or tier 4 blunt protection

[upper ermine]

Is… is there a colorful chart or a google doc that tells me this stuff? Please, my brain has been rotted away by years of Minecraft

[green shadow]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dEvhLqeOaweRgaYhn68PVj5zsRfKdojDqy7AIheHP94/edit?usp=sharing

this will tell you enemy damage types

high tier drifters can either do blunt or piercing attacks

low tier drifters do only blunt

sawblade does only slashing

most animals do slashing, some animals do blunt

bowtorn does piercing

oh, it has more tabs in it

[uneven trench]

I wish that spreadsheet has a way to see what you probably get when wearing specific combos

also the character stats need to show how much penalty you get while wearing armor

gambeson or gambeoised

anyway looks like I need to get more flax and get myself a gambeson set

[upper ermine]

So this time around I’m a hunter with a halberd and I choke up on the handle as much as possible, that should leave me with no dead zone when swinging but it feels like I flail a fair amount in melee without doing damage, or maybe it’s just that more formidable enemies can tank more damage and my iron weapon is just way inferior to my meteoric iron great sword from the previous server.

Or it could be lag. I’m trying to narrow it down.

[green shadow]

i think you need to attack from specific directions

if you want to deal slashing damage

either from left or from right

forward animation will do piercing damage

tier 5 slashing damage is better against drifters then tier 5 piercing

[uneven trench]

btw do animals give back bullets that you used to shoot them with via firearms

[charred river]

no

bullets always break

[uneven trench]

imagine if they did tho

[zenith mesa]

Well theres no way a copper or lead bullet would survive

Iron wouldnt survive really either

Probably just steel

Ive seen steel shotgun slugs survive impacts depending on the target, so maybe.

[graceful bridge]

In older weapons, when the shot speeds were much lower, ball ammo was more likely to remain intact enough to recast. There's stories of armies offering payment for people that brought in used lead shot during the American Civil War.
You'd need to remake the bullets, but recovering the lead is feasible.

[uneven trench]

so a lead bullet fired from wheelock pistol is probably slow enough?

[thin wing]

i've gotten missed bullets back already sometimes

i don't know why though

[uneven trench]

hmm, odd

[thin wing]

usually ones that missed

[uneven trench]

anyway something amusing I just realized as I have two of the parts needed to make a wheellock tin bronze pistol is that I don't have saltpeter and sulfur to make gunpowder

I'm making all parts of a gun but I don't have the thing that makes the bullet propel

[keen veldt]

throw the bullet with your hand

[green shadow]

bullets are the least expensive part about using firearms

[green shadow]

common goods trader (or whater its called) sells blasting powder

but it might be cheaper to buy just sulphur if you see it

since other two components -saltpeter and crushed coal - are relatively easy to obtain

at least from my experience

[uneven trench]

hmm, will check the nearby traders then

I got a survival goods and a treasure hunter literally by the coast of the lake I'm at

also, how do I make bows more accurate, it's inaccuracy is passing over to crossbows when I immediately switch to them while drawn and before firing

[river glacier]

are headshots against mobs 2x dmg mult or 1.5?

ok nvm testing seems to prove 1.5

[dull herald]

Don't wear/wear less armor with steady aim penalties

If you're not wearing any, then you simply suffer it.

If you're a blackguard or a tailor you get a hefty penalty to your aim. A hunter gets a large bonus instead.

[uneven trench]

I'm just commoner class

[fallow surge]

If projectile does not hit entity it can be picked up, I made it so you can shoot targets and bullets will stay so you can see where it hit

[river glacier]

hey uh, what is the point of the latch crossbow? I mean other than it being fucking cool and all

making it requires having access to iron and you can already one shot wolves and pigs with iron arows shot from a longbow

with headshots only but the crossbow needs a headshot aswell

[upper ermine]

What’s the heaviest armor I can wear as a hunter while keeping all my bonuses?

[upper ermine]

Not sure, but doesn’t it say on one of the associated pages that it’s the only one that becomes obsolete or whatever?

I’m more underwhelmed by the windlass. With all that literal windup i was hoping to one shot a bear

[dull herald]

A open helmet and any armor that doesn't cover the arms

[upper ermine]

Material doesn’t matter?

[river glacier]

the one that is said to become obsolete is the simple cbow

[dull herald]

Material doesn't change any penalties for a given type of armor

Bronze, iron or steel plate will all hit you with the same drawbacks, all material does is determine how good the armor actually is

[upper ermine]

What about gambeson

[river glacier]

what about it, there's only one material you can make it out of

[river glacier]

you can one shot all bears except brown and polar with a headshot, brown will be left with 6 hp and polar with 8

for brown bears that's a single bodyshot with a longbow after the headshot with windlass

windlass is a better carbine honestly

[zenith mesa]

Crossbow usefulness when the humble firearm walks in

https://tenor.com/view/cda-verkiezingen-henri-bontenbal-politiek-gif-15464081212201959495

[river glacier]

firearms are cool until you stop loving to miss your target point blank

arquebus and blunderbuss make some sense until you get steel after that you are better off getting the goat crossbow

carbine -> see comment above

musket does have its uses

pistols' selling point is one shotting wolves but you can already do that with a stirrup for a fraction of the cost

[austere crypt]

I've got combat overhaul and armory installed. What's the best overall armor I should be using? I've just reached the iron age

there's a lot of armor options, and it's hard to compare them all

[river glacier]

best you can get for chest and head and minimising the downsides for legs and arms (like scale)

don't use the vanilla armor pieces use the split parts from the armory

applies to the treasure hunter armors too except the helmets these are good

that is for the middle and outer layers, for the skin layer you just wear the gambeson or the better gambeson and forget about it, you don't really take blunt damage too often but the debuffs are minimal

[austere crypt]

thanks

[river glacier]

this is the difference in damage you recieve with the setup, torso has a tailored gambeson, iron chain and iron brigadine, limbs have the tailored gamb and iron scale

and this is the strongest shiver in the game

if you think 4 damage is still too much you can uparmor the limbs but the manip speed and walking speed debuffs hit pretty hard

[upper ermine]

I wanna make a weapon for a friend, what should it be? a greatsword maybe? he's new and chose blackguard

[river glacier]

you can also swap out the brigadine for a cuirass for the exact same debuffs and more armor but it costs over twice the metal and frankly I'm happy with a less than 1 dmg

[river glacier]

any weapon that can block so yea gswords are good

[uneven herald]

if your friend knows how to bait drifters into attacking and then dodging, a mace is extremely effective

drifters have zero armor vs blunt so even a dook shit copper mace ends up mogging drifters

and the lack of attack speed buff means you can abuse the extended attack anim and thrash groups if you know what you're doing

[river glacier]

if you like the mace try the quarterstaff, it has longer range and can block

[uneven herald]

even with lantern offhand?

[river glacier]

nope you gotta learn to place your lanetrn down

takes some getting used to but still worth it

[uneven herald]

ah i am much too mobile for that

I don't ever block i purely defend via positioning

[river glacier]

it works in the overworld but not in a 2 wide cave

[uneven herald]

you'd be surprised how much space there is

[river glacier]

you can have all the space in the world you still can't juke shivers

[uneven herald]

shivers are so stupid tho

for those i just hit them until they die

70% of the time they flee or roll over

[river glacier]

half the time maybe but the other half they are eating your face

[uneven herald]

not if i hit them and trigger their flee

[river glacier]

higer tiered ones flee less often

[uneven herald]

they seem really really incapable of ever putting up a fight

yeah im mogging nightmare shivers too

I just hate bowdorks

i will mog them one day when i decide to bring torches

[river glacier]

hold right click and they can't damage you

with a block-able weapon that is

[uneven herald]

never blocked in me life

even though i found a really fancy shield

my primary problem is they love to run away and it's dark in a cave and they are damage sponges despite being ranged mob

really annoying to fight

not really a fight more like a bad chase

[river glacier]

you'd kill them faster with the staff since it deals more damage

quarterstaff is literally mace+ that can block

[uneven herald]

i made the mistake of making a blackguard short sword and need to use it fully but it's so durable 💀

[river glacier]

use it as decor and swap to a real weapon

[uneven herald]

it is a real weapon

[river glacier]

it's a falx but worse

the lore bit that says "specially made for otherworldly creatures" isn't just a lore bit, falxes have a damage tier bonus

blackguard shortsword doesen't have that

[uneven herald]

?

[river glacier]

compare iron falx to the shortsword

[uneven herald]

?

oh i see now

4 tier

vs 5

yeah but why bother with falx i can just skip to a mace

it's servicable i just need to use up another 350 durability and i can switch to a bronze mace

[river glacier]

again why use mace when the staves exist 💀

just put your lantern on the action bar and place it when you need to swing your weapon

[uneven herald]

because i can do this thing where i don't exist where a drifter is attacking

much more often and much more flexibly

and not have to manage my lantern

[river glacier]

again, staves deal more damage at longer range

the overhead staff attack has a 2 blocks range

compared to the 1handed weapons which require you to faceplant the target

[uneven herald]

but i refuse to let go of my lantern

moreover i need to trigger their attack anims for the way i fight

im gonna be in their face regarless

[river glacier]

the 2 blocks range lets you hit bowthorns without getting hit by their instant melee attack

[uneven herald]

yeah but i don't care about their near 0 damage melee attack

[river glacier]

it's the same damage their arrows do ._.

[uneven herald]

hasn't hurt me

blackguard armor do be like that i guess

[green shadow]

steel tier crossbows are better then every firearm

they have high piercing tier, meaning they can actually punch through drifter resistance

they are significantly cheaper to operate

and they reload faster

they can be preloaded mostly, skipping most of loading animation

[uneven herald]

anyhow crazy huh people play differently in a sandbox game

i don't like deleting the convenient part of my tremendously convenient light source, fathom that

[river glacier]

it's not deleting it it still gives light when you place it down

it takes a single click to place it and pick it up

[uneven herald]

still an inconvenience

no matter how you frame it it's going to result in more overhead than just leaving it in my offhand where it never interferes with me

[river glacier]

you say that because you haven't seen the light

being able to block

[uneven herald]

why would i want to stop attacking after an enemy has completely stood still

[river glacier]

if you want to go for the "but muh dps" argument then again, 1handed weapons have the worst damage output of them all

you also praised the mace's lack of atk speed bonus with the blackguard so you can hit multiple enemies at once, guess what quarterstaves' sweeping attack is for

[uneven herald]

already brought torches instead

/dab

[upper ermine]

Does it have a dead zone where if they’re too close they won’t get hit?

[river glacier]

with the overhead I think so but the sideways swipes either no or its shorter

[river glacier]

wait nvm I remembered it wrong

the overhead has no deadzone, the swipes do (doesen't make much sense but here we are)

tbh use the overhead attack 99% of the time it's the best one (target reticle like this:)

[hollow pasture]

Cannot place your lantern in story locations

[river glacier]

but you can place torches >:I

[fallow surge]

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/5230

[hollow pasture]

I don't think so. There are Torch holders in a lot of places though

[river glacier]

then you think wrong

I know you can place torches down in the archives because Ive done it

[fallow surge]

Go and test it

[river glacier]

it was a few weeks ago i'm not senile

[fallow surge]

Also this sounds kinda rude

[hollow pasture]

Can I see a clip of you doing it? I haven't played in awhile and I see nothing about it on the wiki

[river glacier]

didn't mean it to

[fallow surge]

Then just go and test it, there is a command to teleport you to story location

[hollow pasture]

Go and read back at some of the other messages if you want to see more of it

Tbh I wonder if they'd ever change the resonance archives to just make certain parts unbreakable so you can't sequence break. There are so many cool blocks and decor I wish I could take home without commands to disable the claim

[river glacier]

placing ingots

oh wait 😄

a moment before I admit i'm dumb

ok I have placed torches in the eidolon arena room

but it was while on creative mode xd

so ok I was wrong but you can still throw the torches down and use them as light source

[charred river]

Pretty good. No reload yet?

[uneven trench]

are we reaching the point of the bolt action

[fallow surge]

No, why do you think so. Just a scoped gun

[uneven trench]

never seen a scoped flintlock tbh

[uneven herald]

we havent even gotten to breechloading yet

[fallow surge]

I made it just to show how to do scope, tbh. May be I leave it as aa prototype

[sullen elbow]

kino

[hollow pasture]

Very true. I was just confused on when they changed torches

[hollow pasture]

If you didn't "private" the mod to a second link people would complain about the scope not being Picture-in-Picture with reflections off the lens 🤣
Looks awesome though!

[green shadow]

is there a headshot modifier?

i was testing guns in creative, and it feels like steel carbine can oneshot tier 4 drifters/sawblade on a headshot

still objectively worse then a windlass in every way, but its interesting

[final latch]

yeah its 1.5

[green shadow]

if you go for the head - carbine is just as good as musket for most mobs

but still, windlass does the same damage while being less expensive to fire and faster to reload

[uneven trench]

I just noticed that the mold for bullets is smaller than vanilla ones

[uneven trench]

also, speaking of breechloading, Smoke and Powder apparently had a breechloader in their firearms arsenal

[turbid sand]

CO really needs a system like what "Doff and Don Again" did; quickly putting on armor from an armor stand, or putting equipped armor onto a stand. Save a lot of tedium from gearing up/down with up to 15(?) pieces of armor

[gilded merlin]

When I hold a heated copper rod in my hand, the game crashes. Could this be an issue that only happens in 1.20.5-rc.3? Crash log is as below:

OK, I found the one in 1.20.4
#mods-general message

[upper ermine]

Where can I read up on the different layers of armor and how all that works?

Also does the hunter get a bonus for crossbows? Please tell me he does

What are Bullseye bows?

[mellow light]

https://mods.vintagestory.at/bullseye

[prisma basin]

50% faster reload.

[green shadow]

arquebus is a fun toy

not super powerful, but fun

if only my armor did not make me complete immune to low tier mobs :(

[prisma basin]

I mean... that means it's doing its job.

[hushed scarab]

Long axes are what get the battleaxe bonus right?

Seems like a silly question but i want to be sure

[prisma basin]

I believe so,yes.

The iron and steel long axes are Dane axes,yeah?

[river glacier]

armor layers: you add the values from all the layers together and then compare the result with this table

[graceful bridge]

#1260976245374582886 message

[river glacier]

example: you take a tier 5 hit while having tier 9 armor against that damage type means you take only 30% of the damage, the remaining 70% is reduced from the armor's durability

[graceful bridge]

I gave an armor explanation here.

[river glacier]

well yea, add to that explaination and the above table the information you get from this new table and you know everything you need to

Different body parts have different chance to get hit and they have their own damage multipliers

[mellow light]

I have to ask

Wtf is at Armor Tier 24??

[dim widget]

For fighting gods

and dragons

[mellow light]

wheeze

[dim widget]

and clowns from the very depths

[river glacier]

you don't get to 24 from any single piece of armor you get there from layering up

[thin wing]

i think 24 is just the max you can get with steel plate + steel chain + tailored gambeson (slash defense i assume)

[mellow light]

Ah

[cunning apex]

hey guys, probably something said a few times however im looking to contribute/play with the ranged system and looking to add additional variants etc.

so far to my understanding after reading the entire thread.. i think i need the firearmsdev, Combatoverhauldev (ver0.0.49) and vsimgui (1.20pre)
(please correct me if im wrong)

however i cant seem to get it all setup to work, image attached shows the current mods loaded and the firearmsdev coming up with a log error, not sure what i should be attacking first or where to go, if anyone could throw me a bone in terms of a simple introduction on how to have the devside loaded that would be a massive step forward for me.

so far im walking in the dark and im happy to continue doing so as to not take up time after i can make a start however im relatively inexperienced and im having trouble deciphering fragmented information throughout this thread, thank you to anyone in advance that could help in the slightest!

[final latch]

what do the log files say?

its located at %appdata%/VintageStoryData/logs/server-main.txt

you can post it at mod-development maybe we can help or you make a thread in here

[cunning apex]

\AppData\Roaming\VintagestoryData\Logs
i dont seem to have a servermain.txt

[uneven trench]

client-main then?

[fallow surge]

latest dev version:

[uneven trench]

btw I am curious what's the difference between github release of CO and the ModDB release, since the ModDB has a higher version nunber

[fallow surge]

I just dont post dev versions... May be when I have more time and energy I will

[uneven trench]

i've been developing on the release build o.o

[final latch]

[vsmod_firearms-dev.zip] Missing modinfo.json your mod has no modinfo

[cunning apex]

firearmsdev still throws the log error
would i have the wrong version then

[fallow surge]

No idea what this archive is

Are you trying to download repo and put it as a mod?

[cunning apex]

https://github.com/maltiez2/vsmod_firearms/tree/dev
wrong link

mb

[fallow surge]

I think you should start from VS wiki on modding

Someone can give a link to it, pls

[final latch]

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Modding:Modding_Basics_Portal

[cunning apex]

thank you for the help, apologies for any inconvenience

[final latch]

no worries, get into the basics and we can gooo!

[hallow bolt]

Do rust enemies just actually have 0 blunt protection?

It seems too good to be true so wanted to ask before going ballistic with a quarterstaff

[river glacier]

it's true

it's not too crazy because there is no extra damage to be dealt from negative armor or whatever

it just means you don't need high quality materials to deal full damage to high tier enemies

[graceful bridge]

Clubs and quarterstaffs do full damage. Surprisingly, Blunt is the king.

[civic eagle]

So wait, which pieces of armor go on which of the three layers of my body? If I want to keep the maximum bonus as a hunter, what's the heaviest sets of armor I can wear?

Also if I use meteoric Iron in a crossbow does it benefit at all from that as opposed to just using cheaper materials?

[thin wing]

The latch crossbow is the same regardless of if you use iron or meteoric iron

For hunter the majority of accuracy penalties comes from your headgear and reload speed is affected by manipulation speed which is mostly affected by arm armor

[prisma basin]

Gambeson on skin layer,mail on middle layer,scale/plate on the outer layer.

Just like in reality.

[thin wing]

You can't layer scale and chain tho

[prisma basin]

As a hunter,you tend to want to leave your arms without anything heavier than gambeson,and on your head,throw on a gamboised cap,a mail coif,and an open helm.

[thin wing]

Scale takes up the outer and middle slots so it's the standalone "light" option

[prisma basin]

The rest of your body,feel free to go heavy as Hell,since more armour is always better,so long as it's not actively impairing your prefered means of combat.

[hallow bolt]

I wear full scale + riveted helm (Armory mod) for my hunter

Stats are pretty fine for good protection (except vs nightmare)

[river glacier]

latch cbow is a worse longbow in 95% of cases

in the other 5% it's a worse comp bow

[hallow bolt]

Yeah the latch one seemed meh

[river glacier]

dont use it despite how fucking sick it is

[prisma basin]

You're putting some pentalties on your ranged combat performance with that setup. Full gambeson on the skin layer,mail coif,shirt,and leg armour on the middle layer,and an open helm,cuirass,and plate leg armour on the outer layer will get you impressive protection factor without impairing your ranged performance on jot.

[hallow bolt]

The stirrup one (bronze) is pretty good for hunting though. Good headshots kill most prey in 1 hit

[river glacier]

that is true

[hallow bolt]

Its like -5% mani and aiming

No helve hammer yet so we haven't done serious testing with plate though

Scale armor has surprisingly small penalties

Though yes the protection is shit compared to what it can be

[green shadow]

my dream is to fix forlorn hope set

its essentially a scale+

better then steel scale, same penalties roughly

also, drip

[royal lava]

Scale is fantastic, especially for generalizing. I wear full scale with a cuirass and open helm for my caving gear.

[austere crypt]

what exactly is the difference between a spear and a javelin?

[prisma basin]

Spears are melee only. Javelins are infinitely better hucked downrange.

[austere crypt]

Do you mean they're only effective as melee? They can still be thrown

[hallow bolt]

Forlorn has some pretty heavy debuffs to me :c (mani speed is seggs)

[hallow bolt]

For me I'll probably start using a mix of plate + scale for caves

Mostly to avoid the mani speed debuffs

[green shadow]

you can throw them, but its not effective

i feel like javelin is as good as spear for melee, if you carry a shield with it

spears and pikes are very unpleasant to use in CO

scale overall is the best armor set if you care about penalties and dont care about min maxing protection

scale with gambesson underneath

if you want to min max protection - you will wear scale sleeves/pants with cuirass and chain shirt

and riveted/light helmet with chain coif

[hallow bolt]

If the spear length didn't reset even time you swap, it'd be a lot more user-friendly

[green shadow]

spears are unpleasant to use in melee and they do the worst type of damage as well

[hallow bolt]

Tbh I carry 2 melee weapons anyways, Quarterstaff for rust enemies (literally no protection) and spear for hunting animal (also no protection)

[green shadow]

i carry arquebus for hunting animals, before i used simple crossbow

[hallow bolt]

Ah try a Stirrup crossbow next time, a headshot kills deers and wolves in 1 hit

Such a huge step up from the simple crossbow

[green shadow]

i did not had access to oak logs, thats why i was stuck with simple crossbow

[uneven trench]

bamboo?

[hallow bolt]

Ah yeah the composite thingy

Rip

[green shadow]

i was very unlucky and never found bamboo in forage vessels

[hallow bolt]

RNG is a cruel one 😔

[green shadow]

in one or two game months i will replace arquebus with two carbines, thats good enough to hunt bears without wasting time on digging a pit

[hallow bolt]

The "skip combat" build UwU

[green shadow]

im tired of bear ninjas

[hallow bolt]

Same

[green shadow]

somehow i lost good quality meteoric pickaxe because of them

[hallow bolt]

Part of why I wear Scale as it has increased protection vs Slashing

[green shadow]

i have bronze scale but i only wear it for deep mining operations

most of the time im unarmored

[hallow bolt]

Sadly vs nightmare enemies they almost completely bypass bronze scale 😔

Though for corrupted and weaker, its fine

[hallow bolt]

Iron scale for me at all times

[green shadow]

they dont if you block

[hallow bolt]

I mean you can apply that for any armor :p

[green shadow]

i will make one soon probably, for archives

[hallow bolt]

I wonder what damage type the eidolon does

[green shadow]

tier 7 blunt damage

only

[hallow bolt]

It looks like it'd be a lot of blunt attacks but not sure

Lol

Got to get cloth armor

[green shadow]

i have full set of gambesson

i wear it for not too deep mining operations

maybe i can catch trader selling Tailoring Skill Book and make tailored gambesson

[hallow bolt]

Scale + Riveted helm for me

[green shadow]

impresive that you got to iron this early

[hallow bolt]

We're saving the flax for a windmill but now that I know the Eidolon does blunt. That changes things

[hallow bolt]

To be fair, it was just really lucky ore

"Oh hey decent hematite 200 blocks from my spawn"

[green shadow]

whats the blunt tier on iron scale?

3?

[hallow bolt]

Like 2 lol

Even plate is like 4? At best

[green shadow]

oh, so it will be tier 9 blunt resistance

[prisma basin]

Gambeson is your blunt protection du jour.

[hallow bolt]

Indeed

[prisma basin]

That said... the Eidolon is hilariously weak to parrying.

[green shadow]

eidolon does 8 damage at range and 12 in melee

[prisma basin]

Bunny hop the slam,and parry the claps. Damage: Zero.

[hallow bolt]

Ah got it

I suppose a quarterstaff would do 🤔

[prisma basin]

Anything that can parry will completely lock out the Eidolon if you're playing it like Sekiro.

[hallow bolt]

2-handed + can parry + blunt (good vs rust enemies)

The 2- handed will be a pain in the fight but I plan to fill my inventory and drop torches lol

[green shadow]

eidolon will hurt with just tier 8 blunt resistance

and i have +50% mob damage from WS

[uneven trench]

i wonder if I can take the skeleton from here, use it to make something for kemono mod/avali mod, and then publish it

[fallow surge]

Skeleton? There are no skeletons in VS animations system

[uneven trench]

hmm

I wonder what makes this break with those mods then

[fallow surge]

If you change proportions, sizes and positions of shape elements, or removing/adding elements - you will break animations for obvious reasons

[graceful bridge]

Hey, does blocking add the defense tier to your armor values?

[uneven trench]

how do I add a new arrow into the arrow quiver via patch

[uneven trench]

huh

#1345337426578505774's arrows don't get into the quiver so I think I have to patch it in manually

[uneven trench]

still have no idea why it doesn't

[fervent swift]

Maybe you need to add "bonesbonesandbones:arrow-*" to canHoldWildcards?

[fallow surge]

yes, and this is a bug, will fix it

[uneven trench]

seems like it actually only can do game:arrow-* and not just mod-agnostic arrow-*

[hallow bolt]

Man quarterstaff rips through enemies

I wonder if its worth class changing from hunter just for the +30% attack speed lol

[fallow surge]

Probably fixed in 0.1.30

[fallow surge]

try out CO 0.1.30

[uneven trench]

should I move to 1.20.5-rc3 though

[fallow surge]

nope

[tiny merlin]

stupid question cause I feel like I know the answer already, but still... can I use CO 1.30 with VS 1.20.4 stable?

[uneven trench]

no need to move to rc3

your question is my question whose answer is above your message

[tiny merlin]

for some reason I was confused by that at first...

[fallow surge]

Attemt at rebalncing armor: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?usp=sharing

[green shadow]

yeah, its pretty fun

you can use other weapon types on a hunter if you like, hunter melee weapon proficiencies are kinda weak anyway

halberd does slashing damage with side attacks, at least

or you can try using recurve bow while backpedaling, as a short range weapon

its very fast

[midnight crag]

OK so since i figured out the correct area to post issues, how do i get u my logs? or is the bug one your already aware of, or am i just braindead?

[midnight crag]

Ahh ok, so i was being braindead

[uneven trench]

btw what updated for combat overhaul and firearms?

[fallow surge]

Some one please help, fill values from the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DJzwPXaMZL3HfAC2N7zUcmRRIUSrGTB7oO7Q5fszqz8/edit?usp=sharing) into this patch file, I just can handle doing this manually

[uneven trench]

oh, that's a big json

[fallow surge]

some stuff, it is not important enough

[fallow surge]

I generated it autmatically from spread sheet earlier, but now I have different spreadsheet not suitable for this

[green shadow]

does CO changes so clothes having warmth bonus proportional to their durability?

[fallow surge]

No, why do you ask?

[green shadow]

im not sure who else to put a blame on, thats how my clothes work and they not supped to behave like that

[uneven trench]

that's Warm Armor mod

it also has a bug where you can't check the handbook how to craft armors

[fallow surge]

sounds like vanilla

[green shadow]

i dont have warm armor mod, i think

[uneven trench]

huh

[green shadow]

people claim clothes dont loose warmth bonus before 50%

in vanilla

[uneven trench]

yours start at 100%?

odd

[fallow surge]

https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/454909656230526976

[green shadow]

at 90% durability i get 2.7 degrees from a fur coat instead of 3

[uneven trench]

there's a surprisingly large amount of people asking for this mod to strip down its features for Firearms and Crossbows >.>

[fallow surge]

I know, just waiting for someone to give up and fork some of them. It is a lot of work, so it is kinda unlikely

[uneven trench]

besides removing the patch folder, what needs to be removed to make it only features?

[fallow surge]

You mean to remove all the features? A lot

[uneven trench]

i mean basically make it a library like what the complainers want it to be

[fallow surge]

It is not enough to just "remove" stuff, also it requires research, so you will have to figure out how to split it into libraries and what to reimplement to work with vanilla.

[uneven trench]

oh.

i can see why its tedious then

the range systems need parts of melee systems and the melee systems need arts of tool systems and etc?

[fallow surge]

Not really

[uneven trench]

still tedious then, anyway what's the model used for the arrows so I can patch this

[fallow surge]

look into assets/shapes

[uneven trench]

is it a drag and drop, no need to change name for textures and such?

[fallow surge]

look into shape files

[fallow surge]

you can reuse CO model

[uneven trench]

shapes/ammo/arrow/stone.json or shapes/ammo/pile-arrows-fletched.json

didnt know you can pile arrows

[dense cloak]

Good thing theres no vampires yet

[green shadow]

lol

personally i will settle for combination of scale + gambesson

its good enough, has moderatle penalties and looks good

im glad scale helmet was reintroduced, its balanced i think

cause you cant have mid layer with scale

[dense cloak]

I play blackguard and I have plenty of food, so I do full plate

It's very fun being unkillable

[uneven trench]

I think I'm doing something terribly wrong with the patch

    {
        "file": "bonesbonesandbones:itemtypes/tool/combatoverhaul/arrowco.json",
        "op": "replace",
        "path": "/shapeByType",
        "value": {
          "*-crudebone": {"base": "combatoverhaul:shapes/ammo/arrows/crude"},
          "*-bone": {"base": "combatoverhaul:shapes/ammo/arrows/stone"}
        },
        "dependsOn": [
        {"modid": "combatoverhaul"},
        {"modid":"bonesbonesandbones"}
        ]
    },
    {
        "file": "bonesbonesandbones:itemtypes/tool/combatoverhaul/arrowco.json",
        "op": "replace",
        "path": "/texturesByType",
        "value": {
          "*-crudebone": {"material": "bonesbonesandbones:item/bones/bone"},
          "*-bone": {"material": "bonesbonesandbones:item/bones/bone"}
        },
        "dependsOn": [
        {"modid": "combatoverhaul"},
        {"modid":"bonesbonesandbones"}
        ]
    }
]

file location on assets/rowanskiecompats/patches/bonesbonesandbones/arrow.json

[fallow surge]

better to ask in https://discord.com/channels/302152934249070593/351624415039193098, I dont have energy to debug this

[uneven trench]

i think it's the textures lmao

[fallow surge]

no idea, you haven't mentioned what is wrong, you didnt give screenshots or logs

[uneven trench]

oh true

[upper ermine]

Ws?

Also does a clsss have a bonus for the quarterstsff

[thin wing]

clockmaker
also WS = Wilderness Survival, a preset

[green shadow]

I carry two sticks. I hit things on the head with first one, the other one spits out fire and death.

[hushed scarab]

Wheres your third

[green shadow]

https://tenor.com/view/haha-nice-one-nice-nice-one-haha-shotgun-gif-26817960

[keen veldt]

🙏

[fallow surge]

You can help with this btw: #1260976245374582886 message

[keen veldt]

Not on rn, if I get time later I’ll 100% help

seems like a lot of shit needs entering haha

[river glacier]

harsh nerfs 👀

oh wait the mob damage got lowered aswell

bowthrons are shooting straws now lul

[fallow surge]

Nope, no harsh nerfs

[river glacier]

cheapo iron scale setup went from taking 4 limb damage from the strongest shivers to 9 damage

[keen veldt]

Icl that’s not too bad as they’re meant to be strong enemies

[river glacier]

sure but it's still more than twice what they deal currently so only fitting to call it a nerf

[uneven trench]

i keep dying hard to one sawblade locust that spawned in my copper mine on a complete gambeson + leather armor set

[keen veldt]

oh 100% nerfed armour

[fallow surge]

ppl were complaining about overpowered armor, btw

[river glacier]

I get it I guess

[fallow surge]

sawblade locust is hard enemy

[keen veldt]

did sawblade locust get its damage reduced atleast?

[river glacier]

kinda removes the point of giving weapons the option to block if you can just facetank everything

[fallow surge]

look into the table

[keen veldt]

I’m on phone

I shall try find it

Damn that’s fair asf

[keen veldt]

Ye hopefully people use more shields / block more

on a server w CO everyone I know just used two handed blunt

[fallow surge]

quarterstaff needs nerf

[river glacier]

again? 😭

[keen veldt]

I mean they can’t block now

[fallow surge]

again?

[river glacier]

pretty recently their block got weakened

[keen veldt]

right ?

[fallow surge]

Ok, may be again

[keen veldt]

Lmao

[fallow surge]

we'll see

[keen veldt]

The reduced values might make the axes more viable which is pretty cool

[uneven trench]

I will admit the armor nerf makes me worry that I need to walk away then back to despawn the locust lmao

but then I saved and quit

can I just say tho according to a pole-dancing archer/content creator, your iteration of crossbows is closest to real life

[uneven herald]

but tasty jonas parts

[keen veldt]

murder the locust with the crossbow

[uneven trench]

these mechanical enemies are giving me a fear of walking towards the archives lmao

what armor should I make since I have a gambeson set and a tin bronze chain set

for the outer layer at least

[river glacier]

cbows are the worst weapons to use against locusts 🤨

[keen veldt]

idk if he can make a gun

[uneven trench]

I have a pistol and no more materials to make another

[keen veldt]

shoot him...

[uneven trench]

and no gunpowder left

[keen veldt]

throw the gun at him..

[river glacier]

could be argued gun is even worse because at least with the cbow you can hit and deal some damage

[keen veldt]

ye just if rowan wants to do it from afar probably best bet

[uneven trench]

I was more asking for armor to make

so I can get resistance

[uneven herald]

biggest hits or cost to effect ratio

[river glacier]

currently iron brig body and iron scale sleeves and pants over a tailored gamb is sufficient enough for the endgame

[uneven herald]

also how much do you want to be shooting

[keen veldt]

Iron scale or brig

maybe a bit of chain if you just want the extra protection if you can afford it

so you don’t get brutally murdered as much

[river glacier]

chain shirt under the brig as it is now will have close to no effect

and it might be preferable to just change the brigadine shirt for a cuirass instead of wearing chain underneath

[keen veldt]

before or after the rebalancing?

[river glacier]

before

[keen veldt]

ye u right acc for the cuirass too

cost wise

spitting the wisdom 🙏

[robust pond]

Nothing like having a good ol fashion shootout

[uneven trench]

I think I need to get prospecting for an actually good iron spot

[river glacier]

with the current mod version if you wear iron brigadine, iron scale sleeves, iron scale pants, full tailored gambeson, iron chain hood, iron plate helm (or blackguard helm, a bit cheaper) and get hit by the sawblade:
4 dmg if it hits you in the chest
2,8 dmg if it hits your arms
~2,5 dmg if it hits your legs
~1 dmg if it hits you in the head or neck
0,7 if it hits your face

if you add chain shirt it'll make it deal 0,5 dmg in the chest

[uneven trench]

I'm still in the tin-bronze age though

[river glacier]

you found an iron spot that ran out?

[uneven trench]

never found iron at all

[river glacier]

o well once you do you're set for life

[keen veldt]

forever in the Bronze Age

[uneven trench]

by sheer dumb luck I got enough for only an iron pickaxe from a pre-nerfed drifter rebalance mod

[keen veldt]

prospect everywhere

[uneven trench]

I'm preparing for winter at the same time installed expanded foods lmao

[river glacier]

get a hen

[uneven trench]

my chicken farm's on gen 4

[river glacier]

then you're already set for life

[uneven trench]

anyway I moved to #gameplay-help related to prospecting

[hollow pasture]

|| Eidolon || is balanced around bronze tier plate and jerkin

[graceful bridge]

||how do you figure? I'm seeing that Eidolon does T7 Blunt, and I didn't think leather and bronze could get that high.||

[hallow bolt]

Its definitely not at T7 blunt lol

[uneven trench]

vanilla T7 lmao

[hallow bolt]

To be fair, a straight punch from an Eidolon probably would need vanilla T7 lol

[graceful bridge]

What attack tier is Eidolon at?

[hallow bolt]

In CO, Tier 7 blunt for all attacks

In vanilla, it depends

Iirc tier 2-3 in vanilla

[uneven trench]

I kinda wish the character menu shows up how much you have penalties and total armor tier per body part

[hallow bolt]

Yeah would be useful

[uneven trench]

maybe another optional menu above the extended armor ones

[hallow bolt]

If possible, could replace the vanilla "Ranged draw" and accuracy text seeing as its obsolete with CO

[uneven trench]

probably not replace

there are still mods who have partial compat and those without any compat at all

[lime jolt]

having bunch of these on startup:
12.3.2025 13:22:14 [Error] Patch 4 (target: game:entities/land/hooved/deer.json) in combatoverhaul:patches/entities/deer.json failed because supplied path /server/behaviors/10/aitasks/0/damageType is invalid: The json path /server/behaviors/10/aitasks/0/damageType was not found. Could traverse until /server/behaviors/10, but then 'aitasks' does not exist. Full json at this path:

game seems fine though, should i be concerned?

[fallow surge]

will fix in 1.20.5 stable